1 I like books. Real paper books. I won't go electronic unless something drastic changes.

2

Oh thank god, I'm not the only one who's noticed this.  I was debating getting my sister a Kindle for Christmas (and ONLY a Kindle, because I'm a cheap yankee and that shit's expensive).  Then I looked at the prices for your average e-book and said, "Why on earth would I bother?  It's cheaper to just give her a B&N gift card and tell her to go to town."  We both prefer the paper versions anyway, particularly hardcovers, so it's just not worth it.

3 E-books are killing jobs.  Where once it took type setters and book binders to make books, know you just push a button.  We need to go back to the old days of having monks transcribe each page by hand if we want to move this country into the twenty-first century.

4 Just remember that Baen Books e-books have always been, and still are, reasonably priced.

5

Oops...

FIRST! bitches!

6
I just wait for the movies to come out.

7 I'm a nerd and read a lot of the classics rather than current best sellers.  Many of them are either free or very reasonably priced.

8 Sorry, but I don't get it.  Why would anyone want to read an e-book?  What are the advantages?  If you could really save beaucoup bux, I might consider it.  But the whole idea fails to appeal to me.

I like the real thing.  No inflatable dolls for me.

9 Your spam-fans seem to push ebooks, Ace.  I'm sure they hit your tip jar, too. 

10 I just wait for the movies to come out.

...and then download them.

11

I bought the kindle and have been disappointed by what books are available.

 

Let me off this advice to anyone thinking about buying one.

If you read popular fiction best sellers then the kindle is great for you.

If you're like me and you prefer semi-obscure fiction and niche history books, then I'd stay away from the kindle.

Also, I often overpay for books on the kindle. For example, I bought a bunch of Philip K. Dick books for kindle that I could have gotten cheaper in a book store.

12 I love my kindle but I mainly use it for classics, which are mostly free. I've gotten to revisit old faves and discovered many I missed. 

13 I am rereading "Aztec" by Gary Jennings for the third time. A masterpiece IMHO.

14 Yeah it really pisses me off that the Books on my iPad are not cheaper, but they sure are lighter to drag around an airport lounge that is for sure!

15 *offer

16 maybe the trend will change once most all books go e-book.
sounds like they may be trying to make money for the disposal of the printed versions that wont get sold to people only using e-books, as well as the loss of a sale of something already made.

17

I wonder what effect the threat of piracy has on the pricey cost of e-books?  It's pretty difficult to sell bootleg copies of, say, "War and Peace" unless you've got a photocopier and a LOT of spare time.  But I imagine distributing PDF versions of an e-book would be no sweat.  

Of course, that would make this pricing strategy even MORE ass backward.  Who's going to spend the money on a legitimate e-copy of "War and Peace" (or "Harry Potter," or "Lord of the Rings" or the latest crime thriller) when you can get a PDF off a torrent site for nothing? 

18 Price fixing? Cartel? Antitrust? Hope those publishers talked to their lawyers before setting this up.

19 My wife reads from 2 to 4 romance novels per week.  The result?  We have to store all those paperbacks somewhere.  I trip over them every time I walk through our garage.  I finally got tired of it and bought her a Kindle.  At least the pile of worthless books isn't getting any larger. 

Oh, and now she has more time to make me samwiches. 

20 You're paying for the convenience of not having to store the book once your done with it. Also, I love me some money and gouging, hence the Big in from of Publisher.

21 I was shopping last night online and found even hardcover books are getting more expensive!

I prefer Barnes & Noble - especially since I have a Nook and wifey has a PanDigital, which are hooked into B&N.  But they are all raising their prices of all types of books.

22 >>> I like books. Real paper books. I won't go electronic unless something drastic changes. I do too, but I have to tell you, the ebook version has its advantages. For example, you can just push a button to increase text size. I have gotten bifocals for the first time, so... this is something.

23 Don't worry.  The market will take care of the problem of price gauging as more people resort to straight ebook ganking. 

24 I just go to the library.

25 I am rereading "Aztec" by Gary Jennings for the third time. A masterpiece IMHO.

I like it, too.

26 Publishers are going to shoot themselves in the foot doing this crap. Authors will simply start self publishing or form online publishing associations and collecting the profits directly without a middleman.

27 >>>sounds like they may be trying to make money for the disposal of the printed versions that wont get sold to people only using e-books, as well as the loss of a sale of something already made. possibly...

28 Ben, that's where I am too. I am interested on obscure biographies and history. I also think the copyright laws on books are ridiculous. Agatha Christie has been dead about 50 years now, yet only two of her books are free.

29 8 Sorry, but I don't get it.  Why would anyone want to read an e-book?  What are the advantages?  If you could really save beaucoup bux, I might consider it.  But the whole idea fails to appeal to me.

I like the real thing.  No inflatable dolls for me.

Posted by: Roger at December 16, 2011 12:46 PM (tAwhy)

 

You can 'carry' many books at once in a small device, great for traveling or taking to work if you tend to multi-read.  I have recently learned to appreciate the ability to enlarge text so I don't have to read with my glasses. I don't think of it as a replacement for all books but a handy alternative.

30 MWR-- I was wondering about that. That could account for their hostile pricing -- they're building the "Piracy Risk" into the price.

31 20 You're paying for the convenience of not having to store the book once your done with it.

Like - store it at the used-book store (which will actually pay you something for it - or trade it).  How's that work with e-books?

32 24 I just go to the library.

Posted by: toby928© at December 16, 2011 12:49 PM (GTbGH)

I would go to the library, but my local library is the size of a postage stamp and has absolutely nothing worth reading.  My own personal library has more books than the local public one. 

...I should open my own library. 

33 Something you don't hear mentioned much is that books are just as available for pirating  as movies and music, go on any torrent site and you'll find entire collections of popular authors and because ebook files are miniscule you can download dozens of books in just a couple of minutes. There's even freeware available to convert the files to whatever format you need for your device, so publishers are crazy to artificially inflate prices because people will just pirate the books. They need to do what iTunes did and offer people an inexpensive alternative to pirating before people realize they can steal the publishers out of business.

34 Ha ha ha - Buy e-books! Hilarious!

Haven't you geezers ever heard of torrent sites? Over 1100 available on Demonoid.

Next then you'll tell me is that you actually pay for music and movies too.

35

>>Ben, that's where I am too. I am interested on obscure biographies and history. I also think the copyright laws on books are ridiculous. Agatha Christie has been dead about 50 years now, yet only two of her books are free.

 

Yeah. Project Gutenberg has a lot of free books, but I think they are at least 70 years old(maybe more).

 

I don't see why authors don't cut out the middle man. Why use a publisher? Just write your book, put it on amazon and charge what you want for it.

36 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

37

Navin,

 

do they come in kindle files?

38 This will only create a viable market for e-book piracy.

39 You can 'carry' many books at once in a small device, great for traveling or taking to work if you tend to multi-read.  I have recently learned to appreciate the ability to enlarge text so I don't have to read with my glasses. I don't think of it as a replacement for all books but a handy alternative.

Plus built in dictionary and built in search function.  If you are reading a mystery and you forget if Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones has the pet anaconda, you can easily find out.  And I can increase font size when I am on the exercise machines at the gym.;

40 I want an e-reader for geek books.
You save about $25 per book, and $100 of material still weighs the same.

I'm also tired of waiting for the "MySQL Reference" movie.
I don't think they've even selected the plot twist.

41 The prices of cotton and paper had been very high until recently (fortunately, cotton at least has come crashing down); this probably drove the price hike on the hardcover side. 

42 I'd rather have the Material Download, then.

I wouldn't.  I have too many bookshelves already.

43 I need a torrent for dummies ebook.  Anyone got a pirated copy?

44  For example, I bought a bunch of Philip K. Dick books for kindle that I could have gotten cheaper in a book store.

Posted by: Ben at December 16, 2011 12:47 PM (wuv1c)

 

You pay for Dick?

45 I got the Kindle. I read the most when I'm traveling, or like taking books to appointments and things. Harder to carry a bigass hardcover than my Kindle. I'm also one of those "reading 5 books at one time" people, so it's easier to carry them all and read one depending on my mood than carry two or three books.

I miss the pages and the smell of paper, but this is a better model. I think the big pubs will drop prices once they stop with the "NO! NO NONONONONO! AAAAAAGHHHHHHI DON'T WANNA" kicking/screaming part of their tantrum.

46 If the supply and demand for new books (in the aggregate) is relatively inelastic (which I believe it is, but could be wrong) what incentive does the publisher have for reducing price regardless of a decreasing cost? I think your post proves this point, Ace - one way or the other, you're going to get the book - the publisher knows this.

47 I don't have an e-reader, but I do tend to d/l PDF books off Project Gutenberg.  They've got some great stuff there, if you don't mind old, out of date volumes (which I don't).  They've got several different copies of Bastiat's "The Law," for example.  And lots of P.G. Wodehouse, who I love.

48 I'mmmm baaaaack

But lately I've made a couple of comparisons among books I was interested in. Among three books, one ebook was actually more expensive than the real, physical version of the book.

We have discussed this a lot on the book thread on Sundays. This is the publishers and Amazon is quick to point that out on their site. But, what gets me about Amazon they do the same damn thing with their CDs. Most of the time the MP3 download cost more than the actual physical CD.

So far I have refused to buy an MP3 download that cost more than the DC. I will wait until I am going to do an order before getting the CD.

It is an attempt to gain maximum profit from a venue that is becoming popular. I don't fault them for this, it is their right to charge what they can get.

Just as it is my right to not pay it because it is stupid.

49 You pay for Dick?

Well, there goes this thread.

50 41 The prices of cotton and paper had been very high until recently (fortunately, cotton at least has come crashing down); this probably drove the price hike on the hardcover side. 

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 16, 2011 12:54 PM (Ec6wH)

That's it, time to go back to vellum.

51 Ha ha ha - Buy e-books! Hilarious!

Haven't you geezers ever heard of torrent sites? Over 1100 available on Demonoid.

Next then you'll tell me is that you actually pay for music and movies too.

Posted by: Navin R Johnson at December 16, 2011 12:51 PM (HpT9p)

Thats why you have to find the sweet spot in pricing.  I've been  buying a lot amazon mp3s.  I mostly like jazz and you can get a lot of good albums from 3 to 10 dollars.  I'll pay to not have a futz around with some torrent software and malware infested torrent site.  I will also pay for the convenience of getting the music right then and there.  I just won't pay full retail or more.

52 Well, there goes this thread.

Posted by: jwb7605 at December 16, 2011 12:56 PM (Qxe/p)

 

I just want to point out I didn't have anything to do with it this time.

53 Yeah. Project Gutenberg has a lot of free books, but I think they are at least 70 years old(maybe more).

Mostly, but there are some not quite that old where the publisher didn't renew the copyright. If you find an older book on Amazon for 99 cents, check Gutenberg and you'll probably find it free and DRM free too.

54

Don't know if Llarry is lurking but I wanted to thank him. I got  The Far Arena from my local library. It's a good book.

I wanted to get it on kindle, but alas it's not there.

 

Neither was Michael Crichton's State of Fear last time I checked. I want to read that too.

55 When buying e-books, shop around. The iBooks store is quite often more expensive than Amazon or Nook selections. On an iPad, you can get apps for all 3. Not sure if Kindle or Nook devices allow this as well.

56

As I've mentioned, I looooove my kindles.   Looooooove them (my preciouses).

I would say that 95% plus of the book content on my kindles is from guttenberg or is from some of the writing groups with which I'm involved.  I'm with you, ace, if there's only a minimal discount for buying digital, I will go with actual book instead. 

That being said, there's a lot of indie publishing stuff out there going for between free and up to about 2.99-3.99.  It's worth taking a flyer on something if it's .99.  Amanda Hocking managed to make herself a best seller by marketing the crap out of her stuff on twitter/facebook and pricing between .99 and 3.99. 

Sorry, but I don't get it.  Why would anyone want to read an e-book?  What are the advantages?

Because I can carry my entire book collection in a less than a pound device.  Considering that I used to pack one bag for clothes and a larger bag for books when I travel, that's a considerable factor. 

 

57 Yeah, go on out there and hit those torrent sites. And wait for someone to knock on the door. They have been cracking down heavy on that shit lately.

58 We need to go back to the old days of having monks transcribe each page by hand if we want to move this country into the twenty-first century.

I hate you guys with your high tech goose quills and your fancy "inks".   Ooooh, look at me, I can carry a book without an oxcart. 

Why do you hate the working man.

59 I prefer to read on my Kindle. When I want a book and see it at $9.99 or lower I buy it. If it is over $9!.9!.9! I refuse to buy it and get it from the library.

60

One thing to recall is that you're buying a book, which is a special product.  If it's new, it's copyrighted material, which means a monopoly exists for its production.  Also, the "correct" price for any item is whatever the market will bear, and has no association to the cost of production other than to the extent that competitors making the same kind of thing can leverage efficiencies to bring down costs and attract consumers through price reduction.

They know the reader will pay "X" for a book.  They also know that an ebook is in many ways more convenient than a paper one, and people like using their fancy readers.  They can demand the same price as a physical book, because people will pay it.

61 On the E-books at Amazon what you will find is that when they first come out they are a little high. After they have been out for a while the price will drop to where it is comparable to the paperback.

62 Being a cheapskate, I've only bought 2 books on my Nook (both Bibles). I downloaded over 400 books whose copyrights have expired and I borrow the rest. I'm not really into modern books, so that works for me. I'm probably close to having read all Agatha Christie mysteries by now. Since e-readers are getting so cheap and you can now borrow books on a Kindle, I might get a Kindle.

63 I quit buying paper books for pleasure reading when the price hit 10 bucks for a paperback and the publishers inserted the 14 buck trade paperback into the process thereby adding another year to waiting for new titles. I reread my old favorites, download some really old favorites for free, and gamble a buck or 2 on some cheap historical fiction. I suppose I'll add a few of my absolute faves just for the convenience of having them in my pocket (droid kindle reader) during downtimes. The choice of 18 bucks for a new hardback or 25 for an audiobook puts printed copies out to pasture for me.

64

Yeah - I just entered the search 'kindle' under books - there were over 1100 torrents.

Of course, you need an invite for Demonoid. But Pirate Bay has tons of books which you can 'share' without an invite.

FYI - I use muTorrent to download the torrents (google it), and PeerBlock so I won't get in trouble. I can't remember the last CD or movie that I actually went out and purchased.

65 I don't see why authors don't cut out the middle man. Why use a publisher? Just write your book, put it on amazon and charge what you want for it.

Marketing. A publisher can get you on all the talking head shows.

66

8Sorry, but I don't get it. Why would anyone want to read an e-book? What are the advantages?

 

First, space.  For people who live in a small apartment, books can take up a lot of room.  Second, portability.  Moving boxes of books is a pain in the ass.

 

 

67

Vic,

 Who the hell would pay for an MP3 when they could have a lossless format to pull an MP3 off and keep the 'master' CD?

68 Of course, the publishers might say that the reason for a higher cost is because of the higher convenience and availability. It isn't just about the paper. I mean, book pricing isn't really related to the material cost anyway.

69 I don't see why authors don't cut out the middle man. Why use a publisher? Just write your book, put it on amazon and charge what you want for it.

A lot ARE doing that now, also musicians.

70 I might point out that some writers also put their works on Gutenberg (as I did, before Amazon had its self-publishing option) to get readers when pro publishers aren't interested. Maybe not as much now that Amazon does have that option, but not everything at Gutenberg is 70+ years old.

71 The other advantage of e-books is similar to the major issues with music and movies less space for physical storage. You don't need a lot of space and shelves to hold collections of records, tapes, cds, cassettes, books, anymore. One notebook sized, or smaller, portable device can hold and eliminate a warehouse worth of stuff.

72 I tried an ereader once. Call me old fashioned but I like physical books better.

73

I was going to get a Nook,  but after doing some research, purchased an Android tablet, then downloaded the Nook, Kindle, and an EPub reader.  That way I can read anything out there.

I agree the pricing of ebooks is obscene.  But I love that I can have hundreds of books, and not fill up my closet storing them, or throwing them away after I've read them.

To find inexpensive books, I go to Amazon and look for books (mainly Sci-fi) for under $3.00.   Many authors either give away or charge $.99 for the 1st book in a series, then under $3.00 for the rest.   I've discovered some very good authors that way.  Plus, if I didn't like the book,  blowing $.99 doesn't bother me.

74 Whenever you see the Kindle price higher than the paperback (an outrage and a ripoff), just Demonoid it (a ripoff).

75 Torrents for dummies

And downloading torrents without an IP blocker is like hitting a whorehouse in Haiti w/o wearing a rubber.

76 I bought the Kindle Fire for my wife after looking at the Nook and iPad. It's more for the newspapers and magazines. Also, much better selection of movies & music on the Kindle. The iPad was way to much for what she usually does on her laptop. Taking the laptop and re-purposing it for the childer.

77

First, space.  For people who live in a small apartment, books can take up a lot of room.  Second, portability.  Moving boxes of books is a pain in the ass.

When I moved last year I had 113 boxes.  53 of those were books.  I will admit, however, the whole getting a kindle so as to not actually buy more physical books has not worked out as planned.  Note to self:  use part of Christmas bonus to buy another bookshelf. 

To anyone considering torrenting books, I would strongly strongly advise caution, what with the whole otherly legal aspect thereof.

If you are trying to convert books from guttenberg or the other sites, calibre is fantastic. 

Vic, I hope everything went well, you were in my prayers this morning. 

78 First the Machines came for the bank tellers, and I said nothing.

Then the Machines came for the travel agents, and I said nothing.

Then the Machines came for the bookbinders, and I said nothing.

Who will be left to speak when the Machines come for me?

79 I don't read books for the feel of the cardboard, paper in my hands. I read books for the words strung together by the author.

I don't get the whole 'experience of REAL books' thingy. I have tons of real books. I don't see that reading one of them is in any way superior to opening up my leather-covered Kindle.

As a matter of fact, it is not as nice of an experience, reading my 'real' books. No font changing, no search feature, no instant dictionary, no keeping my place when I have to set the book down in a hurry,  etc...

80 It's kind of like buying bottled water.  Yes sure you can get the same thing from the tap, but there is a convience that you are also paying for in having it packaged in a bottle.  The same thing goes here.  If you have an e-reader, as long as you have the book downloaded to it you will always have it with you.  And also, you can have any book you want at your finger tips in seconds.  No waiting for it to be delivered, no going out to the book store to buy it, no waiting for your friend to finally bring it to work to lend it to you.  Bam, right there within seconds of purchase. 

And you don't have to deal with different sized books.  Everything is standardized.  You don't have to hold the book open, the pages never fade. Etc etc etc.  By and large it just a better product than a actuall book.  Annotations, book marking, note taking, highlighting, getting quick definitions of words you don't know. everything is better with the electronic version.  Yeah, the profit margins are larger for the publisher because they don't have to make anything.  But the prices will not always be as inflated as this I don't think.  If I have any faith in a capitalist system, the prices will necessarily fall eventually.  Don't deprive yourself now of it just because you don't like paying the essentially equivalent to lower price for something that costs the provider nothing to manufacture just on the principle.  You will probably regret it once you finally do take the plunge.

*This comment is paid for by Amazon.com

81 Who the hell would pay for an MP3 when they could have a lossless format to pull an MP3 off and keep the 'master' CD?

Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2011 01:02 PM (YihYc)

The Amazon MP3s are made at a sample rate that is indistinguishable from the master CD. Hell, even when I buy a new CD the first thing I do is rip it and put it on my MP3 player. I will also make a copy of the disk that I play on my DVD players through the stereo.

I do NOT use the original for playing. But I guess that is what you were saying anyway.  But, if the download is cheaper than the CD I will get the download.

Also, in some cases you can only get the download because the CD is out of print.

82 Like - store it at the used-book store (which will actually pay you something for it - or trade it).  How's that work with e-books?

No, like "store it on a bookshelf until you're ready to read it again."

As for how selling or trading would work with e-books... that depends on the e-book format.  With most, you get an actual file.  Depending on the DRM level (from 0 to obscene), you can, occasionally just give them to whoever.

I do agree that the ability to re-sell or trade e-books would be nice, but I also see the difficulties inherent in such.

That said, I love my new Kindle Fire.  A classic example for me is when I want to read while eating (it solves the one-hand-page-turning problem quite nicely) or if I want to read in bed (so I don't keep Mrs. AllenG awake).  Also, for technical books (which tend to be thick, and require a paperweight to hold open if you're using it for reference or attempting to complete an exercise), it's great that I can just have it open to the page I need, and it'll just sit there.

Lost bookmarks, or forgot where you were?  No more, the reader keeps track of that.

83
Don't forget author royalties.  While standard royalty rates on a hardcover might by 10% to 15%, for an ebook they're 25% to 50%.

So much of what the publisher saves on printing costs goes right out the other door in royalties.

84 And to the people who put down reading ebooks, they have many advantages over real books. -You can fit over 1000 books onto a device that weighs less than 1 lb. -You can do searches. So if you're like me and love mysteries but get confused after too many characters are introduced, you can just do a search to refresh your memory about who Mrs. Bumblesticks is. -For hermits like me, you can buy or borrow books from the comfort of your own home without having to leave it or interact with icky humans. -Get a cover and it'll seem like a real book. Get a nook and turn pages using the same actions you would with a real book. -Can you imagine traveling with all the books you could ever need and more and they all fit into your purse? (Okay, this is kind of a repeat of one of my points above.) -They are more comfortable to read than real books. -Your bookmark won't fall out of your book so you'll always know where you left off. So many more advantages. E-readers are great!

85 With the costs dropping to near zero and prices staying the same among the houses... well, that'd be evidence of price fixing.

86 I don't see why authors don't cut out the middle man. Why use a publisher? Just write your book, put it on amazon and charge what you want for it.

Marketing. A publisher can get you on all the talking head shows.


Only if you're one of a very few handful of authors. One of my friends writes romance novels. She promotes herself on Facebook and does local book signings. Not sure what the publisher does, but she's not going on any big shows. If someone is in the right groups online and knows how to promote himself, he can get his book out there.

87

I got a Kindle back when we lived in a 2-bedroom house and had 5 kids, 3 of whom could read. That and Steve's book addiction (hey, it's more useful than oil cans) meant something had to give and it was my dead-tree collection. I was okay with it because now I don't have to decide which book I want to bring to doc's appointments; I can bring 'em all.

Now we've got a second Kindle. The kids pass around the first one and I can read one-handed while feeding the smallest Pirate.

88 Who will be left to speak when the Machines come for me?

Posted by: Wonder at December 16, 2011 01:06 PM (gVqQ3)

Hopefully by then the machine overmind will have reached a Matrix-like level of sophistication, allowing Libs and Cons to live, mentally, in worlds of their choosing without each other while plugged into nutrient tanks.

89

Vic, I hope everything went well, you were in my prayers this morning. 

Posted by: alexthechick at December 16, 2011 01:05 PM (VtjlW)

Went well, taking it out is GOOD. Now 2 or 3 days and I can drink cold stuff again.

Thanks

90

Here's a good Cracked article on this very subject...

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2aca8ql

91 Same thing as the music industry. A **lot** of people in the book industry owe their jobs to maintaing the complex infrastructure that prints books and distributes books to thousands of places nationwide. They understandably will fight tooth and nail to keep these jobs, even if it doesn't make sense for the organization as a whole.

92 Also, a lot of libraries (Los Angeles City and County in my area, Columbus, OH where my girlfriend still has her membership) have started to do e-book loaning. 'Tis wonderful.

93

-They are more comfortable to read than real books.

Also, text to speech which for some bizarre reason isn't on the kindle fire.  I use it constantly so that the kindle can read to me while I'm driving. 

94 This is the natural result of copyright. It allows people to do monopoly pricing.

95 A few times, I've seriously considered just pirating the book, and paypalling $5-8 to the author's email address, along with a note of why I am doing it.

96 Ebook pricing is in flux right now, its all over the board. New authors (self publish) on Amazon are .99 to a couple of bucks. Yeah, I've hit a couple that were for the most part unreadable, but also some outstandingly well written books for 99 cents. The good ones, after a few popular books start raising their price to the $3 to $5 range, which is still a great value.

The problem is with top tier author books priced at $14 for both the paperback and the Ebook, give or take a buck. This is due to these authors being under publisher contract, and I'm afraid the book publishers have become every bit as paranoid and greedy as the music labels. Instead of embracing a new market and distribution channel, they look at their declining sales and blame the internet and Ebooks, rather than the pricing and demographic/cultural shift away from reading anything at all.

They should be flooding the market with cheaper Ebooks from many more authors that were too risky to print copies in the past, and make reading more popular for the younger generation that reads little more than a menu.

Will they figure it out, or go through the slow suicide the music labels seem intent on?

97 So many more advantages. E-readers are great!

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at December 16, 2011 01:08 PM (21lBC)

 

Good list.  I've not bought one yet, but one other thing that I think is nice is that you can blow up the font.  I'm not ancient yet, but even so it's easier on my eyes to have a little bigger print than is often found in paperbacks.

98 Also, a few more authors (especially the already established ones) should look at Louis CK's $5 experiment earlier this week.

99

Not just the space but the fact that Amazon (at least) "backs up" you library to the cloud, even if your Kindle is... kindled.  Of course, what they back up is the fact that you bought the book.  Oh, and your annotations.  Yeah, I annotate the shit out of my ebooks all the time, don't you?

BTW I hear the Kindle Fire isn't exactly catching... fire.

100 I don't have a kindle or nook, i use my ipod touch to read ebooks  and even on that little screen reading is no problem and i can carry literally hundreds of books on it and only use up a gb or 2 of space, compare that to "real" books where carrying around two or three is about it.

101 Why use a publisher? Just write your book, put it on amazon and charge what you want for it.

Marketing.  Those publishers pay for space (both physical and virtual) to have their books easier to find.  Finding an indie book can be difficult- it's also hard (for me at least) to shell out money for a book I may hate.

Of course, that said, when I have enough of them, I bundle a bunch of posts from my Simple Truths mini-essays, edit and re-work them, and publish an e-book on Amazon with them.

102 Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at December 16, 2011 01:08 PM (21lBC)


What she said^^^  :p

103 Technology scares dinosaurs.  The same paranoia gripped the recording industry when cassette tech and CD-R came out.

104

Posted by: Vic at December 16, 2011 01:07 PM (YdQQY)

 

I only buy music if it's pressed on Vinyl.

105

Went well, taking it out is GOOD. Now 2 or 3 days and I can drink cold stuff again.

That is wonderful news! 

106 I travel a lot and I also have a shitload of books at home.  I'll still buy hardcover books for some types of reading but there is nothing better than walking through the airport and seeing a book in the storefront and downloading it before you get to your gate. 

107 The kindle is one of the few devices that actually changed my life. The way I travel and pack is entirely different now. I also like the whispernet functionality -- can read on my computer at home, my laptop, my work computer (lunch!), my phone, my kindle, my wife's kindle, etc. and always be at the right place.

108 The profit margins on ebooks aren't THAT much higher for traditional publishers than print books. Print is a cost, but it's not the only cost -- and not the highest cost. Traditional publishers -- unlike that self-published 19 year old -- still employ acquiring editors, editor editors, copy editors, proof readers. They still pay rent on buildings (often in ridiculous places like Manhattan!). There are cleaning services and computers and other things to pay for. Also, they do have to pay someone to convert books to e-format. Sure, this sounds like it would be a one-button process, but if you've seen some of the formatting on free books that have fallen out of copyright, you know there are all sorts of weird line breaks, hyphenation issues, etc.

This isn't to justify price hikes or defend old school publishers, but the paper/printing does not make up for the bulk of their costs.

109 If I were a book publisher I'd try to kill the Kindle too.
Ebook piracy is rampant. And all it takes is a moment of weakness. Since the files are so small you can download practically every book every published in an afternoon.

With movies people succumb to temptation and download a movie. But then maybe they feel guilty. Or scared they might get caught. So maybe they stop for a while. So the movie industry can invest in social pressure and enforcement to get people to pirate the material less often.

But with books it just takes one afternoon of weakness, or feeling fearless, or anger at high ebook prices. Even if you feel guilty or scared afterwards, you never have to do it again.

The whole back catalog business of book publishers seems to be fundamentally screwed.

When I was a kid reading sci-fi voraciously, most of the books I bought were at least a decade old. The Asimovs and Heinleins. Now there are just files where somebody packages -- here's the greatest 1000 SF novels ever written.. Boom. Done.

110 What they fear is writers just deciding to do Co-ops.



I could easily see a bunch of SF writers getting together as an author group, and self publishing on Amazon and Apple.

Someone like Baen is pretty damned close to that already.

If yer favorite author's stuff is available on a writer's group webpage, would you be likely to buy content by other authors that your favorite author was pimping there?

111

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but I'll tell you another thing I've noticed, generally speaking, about e-books: they're not well-edited, for shit. I have read several e-books from various sources, and have seen error after error. Spelling, grammar, lay-out, pagination... it's ridiculous. Some of them, like the e-book versions of Diana Gabaldon's books, are EXTREMELY well-done, but others are just so much shit, because someone can't be bothered to edit the text properly, and it's just a drag.

I like e-books - they're convenient because I can take more than one with me on my phone -- but I much prefer the actual book.

Know what I mean, Vern?

112 So many more advantages. E-readers are great!

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at December 16, 2011 01:08 PM (21lBC)

OK; well I see your point.  Doesn't work for me (I only read one book at a time - and have always traveled with 4-5 pbs packed in my bag), but I guess I see why some people like 'em.  As for "search" - I like searching the real thing; I find myself not only finding what I was looking for, but being reminded of other things during my search.  I enjoy that.

113 Please join me, friends, like, in my fight against fat trade slavery, you know.

114 The iBooks store is quite often more expensive than Amazon or Nook selections. On an iPad, you can get apps for all 3.

The other thing that's worth mention on the iPad is the GoodReader app. If you buy PDF versions of books like I do, it's the best reader out there. (It also lets you take notes, too.)

115 Clubber Lang: I don't think this would be quite the issue it was if Disney hadn't pushed copyright back 70+ years trying to protect that damned rodent.

20 years is fine. Even with the current laws, authors make next to nothing once a book gets to the book club stage.

116

i like Kooks.

1. because i have one.

2. the free books.

117 I'd think they'd embrace this tech. 

If you pay for and download something, then decide it sucks and isn't worth finishing 15 minutes later, its still yours -- they got your money and ain't giving it back.

If you're browsing a dead tree store and flip through something and decide it sucks, you walk out with your money still in your pocket.

118 My library supports Overdrive, which is a downloadable e-book client. It's free, but new releases will have a waiting list, just like a regular library. But if you put books in your queue, they email you when it's available, then you can download it. It's like Netflix, but free.

119 It makes sense that publishers would be hostile to ebooks.  After ebook readers become the norm why would we even need publishers anymore?  It doesn't cost anything to distribute a digital file.  The whole point of a publisher is that they front the money to put a book in print and get it in a store...  taking the risk that the book will sell.  Right now ebooks are only so expensive because hard copies are still the norm, forcing writers to go through a publisher, giving them full rights over the book.  After ebooks are more predominant that will change.  Amazon is in a sense replacing the publisher and cutting them out.  I've started moving to ebooks for everything.  It's just so much easier.  It's really awesome for students too.  If the professors make their books ebook available, which they all seem to be doing, you can carry years worth of textbooks around on your kindle, vs. hauling hundreds of pounds worth of books on a dolly.  It's a no brainer.

120 Publishers hate ebooks because they make publishers irrelevant. It doesn't take a multimillion dollar company to upload a file.

121 I only buy music if it's pressed on Vinyl.

I can't tell if this is a joke, or serious. If it's a joke:

Vinyl is actually better for storing sound than the current digital formats. One of the down sides to digital is that there are limits to the size of the waveform that can be stored -- the result is that sounds get "chopped".

At some point, the compression algorithms for digital will catch up, but it's not there yet.

(All that said, I use an iPod + speakers as my stereo. The convenience of being able to store and access all my music that easily outweighs the small difference in sound quality.)

122

   'Breeding a Master Race, for Dummies!' is now available for download.

 

 

123

Hopefully by then the machine overmind will have reached a Matrix-like level of sophistication, allowing Libs and Cons to live, mentally, in worlds of their choosing without each other while plugged into nutrient tanks.

Posted by: Reactionary at December 16, 2011 01:08 PM (xUM1Q)

That only works for me if I can electronically nuke those fuckers from my world.

124 Maybe we should get Obama and the government to manage the book sales.  they have had great success with the USPS, Fannie, Freddie, DOE and other departments.

125 What a bunch of freakin' luddites.

126

I can't tell if this is a joke, or serious. If it's a joke:

Not a joke. 

I prefer every aspect of the analog experience and I loathe the convenience of digital music files.

127 I got my dad a kindle. He never buys books--borrows them from the library. But he's getting way up there in age. You can borrow e-books from many libraries, so I figured he could take advantage of expanded fonts with ebooks, and text to speech, without having to actually buy many ebooks. He seems to like it, so far.

128

'Breeding a Master Race, for Dummies!' is now available for download.

Nein, nein, nein, sie nennen "Mein Kampf"

129 For the third time my Kindle screen cracked - all in less than a year. Each time Amazon has sent me a replacement free of charge. It's like cell phones - clearly the device itself is meaningless for Amazon - it's the money you spend because you have the device that counts. I've got about 50-60 books on there and have probably spent less than $50. But I read a lot of old litterature. But there are only so many Victorian books you can read before you need to get something more contemporary.

130

I prefer every aspect of the analog experience and I loathe the convenience of digital music files.

Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2011 01:29 PM (YihYc) 

Hey, I like your style, do you have a newsletter?

131 Thanks Navin Johnson for the Torrent for Dummies link.  And I always knew you had rhythym in you.

132 But there are only so many Victorian books you can read before you need to get something more contemporary.

I think all of H. Beam Piper's books are available on Gutenberg, if you need a Sci-Fi fix.

133 I've got about 50-60 books on there and have probably spent less than $50. But I read a lot of old litterature. But there are only so many Victorian books you can read before you need to get something more contemporary.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at December 16, 2011 01:32 PM (IGkEP)

Belay that, ye lubber!

134 Do e-book sales count toward making a book a best seller?

135

Posted by: Paul Zummo at December 16, 2011 01:32 PM (IGkEP)

if you stop sitting on it, the xcreen will stop cracking.

136 I think all of H. Beam Piper's books are available on Gutenberg, if you need a Sci-Fi fix. I'm not a sci-fi person, but I'll check it out. Jane Austen and even Dickens becomes just slightly repetitive after awhile.

137 This isn't to justify price hikes or defend old school publishers, but the paper/printing does not make up for the bulk of their costs.

Posted by: Ken Wheaton at December 16, 2011 01:16 PM (YxsNd)

I'm glad somebody got around to saying that. Conversion from print to e-book is startlingly labor-intensive. It keeps proofreaders employed, for which some of my colleagues are very grateful.

138 if you stop sitting on it, the xcreen will stop cracking. D'oh! I never thought of that.

139

If you pay for and download something, then decide it sucks and isn't worth finishing 15 minutes later, its still yours -- they got your money and ain't giving it back.

Actually, a lot of Kindle books let you download the first chapter for free.

Given that when I'm in a book store I have 3 kids with me, I have a much better chance of checking out the Kindle book than a paper book at the store!

140 Slightly off topic, but since we're talking about the new world of books - I'm trying to get a couple of books published. One is fiction, one non-fiction. Is it worth the effort to try to do this the old fashioned way and go through a publishing house, or should I just go straight ahead to self-publishing electronically? I can see the benefits of both, but was wondering if people had advice on this.

141

Yep.  Others have pointed out that self-publishing will become the next wave, especially since publishers aren't passing on the revenues from increases in e-book pricing to the authors.  Established authors can now realistically ditch publishers and offer their wares independently.  In the long view, these authors can introduce new authors for a small piece of the pie.

Publishers are being incredibly short-sighted by trying to price gouge e-books, just as music publishers tried to do with MP3s and movie studios are trying to do with on-demand movies.

142 I like to stick it to the fucking publishers gouging Kindle owners on price.  I bought a Robert Spencer "Jesse Stone" novel in hardback used for $3.25 including 2 day free Prime shipping.  Fucking publishers lost out on that royalty and they'll lose it again after I donate it to Goodwill where it will be sold again.

There's absolutely NO REASON to charge more for an ebook than a discounted paperback.

Publishers are also pissed as folks self publishing on Amazon and selling their work for 99 cents to $3.99 in Kindle format.

143

I prefer every aspect of the analog experience and I loathe the convenience of digital

You printed out this thread to read, didn't you?

144 Publishers are begging to get disintermediated. What's their value-add in this process? Editing and talent scouting. Sorry, but that isn't $20 per book. Eventually Amazon or a dedicated ebook publishing house is going to undercut them.

145 D'oh! I never thought of that.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at December 16, 2011 01:37 PM (IGkEP)

and that right there is why you come to the HQ. you learn something new everyday.

146 One thing you miss is that these guys have HORDES of money invested in printing physical books. They are under the delusion that they can kill e-books to preserve the profitability of their investments in printing. Unfortunately for them, this lesson has been taught over and over again, if you don't innovate (regardless of past investments) you will be passed by some upstart. Montgomery Ward meets JC Penney's. Buggy Whip manufacturer, meet Ford. Scribe, meet Guttenberg.

147 And I'm pretty sure posting here works best with handwritten notes sent to Ace via pneumatic tubes. That's the easiest way to post a link here, I do believe.

148 Well, that's the way Dunder-Mifflin would do it.

149 And I'm pretty sure posting here works best with handwritten notes sent to Ace via pneumatic tubes

I am so aiming for your nice, shiny, recently-washed car.

150

You printed out this thread to read, didn't you?

 

yep.  the bathroom is no place for a laptop.

151

We have to stay skinny or we get stuck in those tubes.

Still, better than some alternatives.

152

One aspect that impacted the decision for my husband and I - we can share the books.  And we can read them at the same time.  We bought two Kindles last year, and we read many of the same books, so we have enjoyed the decision immensely.  Recently we bought his mother a Kindle as well, and now all three of us buy books that we can (if we so choose) all read at the same time.  And none of us has to buy physical books or store them.

The biggest downside?  No used books to send in care packages, actually ;-)

153 Blame Apple.  Amazon had put a pretty hard arm-bar on the publishers to force them to sell cheaper e-books, then Steve Jobs snuck up behind Jeff Bezos and kicked him in the goonies with iBooks.  Jeff had to release his hold and the publishers jacked the price on all formats.  That suited Steve-o just fine since his whole business model is putting a shiny wrapper and a 50% markup on conventional products, whereas Amazon prefers to move volume. 

154 Conversion from print to e-book is startlingly labor-intensive.

Publishers must be using some antique hand set lead type processes.  A decent typesetting system would have pluggable output media modules and treat the text in a more generic way. 

If they used PS or Acrobat as the high level editing media, the output system should handle the device specific aspects.

155 Just so happened to have put up my Kindle Fire review: http://howeverblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/kindle-fire-review.html Put simply: get it. If you really want a super-dedicated e-reader, I'd highly recommend the basic Kindle model (now only $80 with the special offer dealie). The charge on the thing lasts forever, the screen is super-easy on the eyes (even in direct sunlight) and weighs almost nothing. An easy buy.

156

Recently we bought his mother a Kindle as well, and now all three of us buy books that we can (if we so choose) all read at the same time.

Hmm. I am thinking about buying a Kindle for my mom and I wonder if I should put it on my account...she doesn't like using her credit card online and I like the cash back I get from using mine...we could share books...hmmm...

157 Piracy is always an option for e-books. I wish I could pay one price for both the e-book, audio, and the hard copy because I like to switch back and forth between them depending on the context. On the upside, you can often buy the physical book and the kindle version from Amazon for about the same price as you would pay for the book alone in a bricks-and-mortar store. If you like audio books, check out audible.com which has very affordable prices on new books. (No affiliation)

158 I just download books from the free book section of Google Books in PDF format. Then I read them on my phone or ereader, but mostly phone.

159 You want me to purchase electronic media?   HAHAHA

This is like the music industry meltdown.

I buy a CD with 12 songs for $10, I can burn it to MP3, have a permanent electronic copy, and use it where I want how I want.

I buy a downloaded song, I can use it limited times, in limited areas, with limited functionality, and pay $1.00/song.  It costs more, has less utility, and technically I never "own" it the way they have it set up.

So I don't buy electronic music.

When the books come along, the same thing happens; and I expect the same issues. What happens when you get a new e-book reader?  If it's not owned by the same proprietary company can you transfer your books over?  Can you move them wherever you want?  Or do you find they belong to the reader you're using and not you; so you can't use them as you wish?

So I'm not buying eBooks either.

How about movies?  Oh, you can "buy" a rental download, but you can't get a valid working long term copy of a DVD downloaded.  They simply won't sell it that way.

Electronic sales of electronic media tend to be too limited in value to be useful; and too costly compared to a physical copy to justify the reasoning.

The only exception I've made is video games, and then specifically online games (MMORPG's and such).  There is no drawback to not having say your old Everquest discs.  If you want to play, you can re-up your account and DL the client without media, you can only play through an account... not having the physical media isn't a limitation.

But for Music, books, videos, etc... you're just buying trouble from the publishers who are trying so hard to manage "security" they end up charging more for less value in the electronic market.

160 Dunno, I just can't see paying close to paper prices for DRMed crap that has zero resale value and will almost certainly go poof someday just like every music file sold in "Plays For Sure" format did.  If it isn't offered in open ePub files I'm not interested.  That means Baen and O'Reilly yes, most of the others no.  So that means the Kindle is useless since it still doesn't read ePub.  The Nook just wastes most of the built in flash on it's secure jail but ya can pop in a memory card. I have the Nook Simple Touch and just leave the WiFi off because all it can be used for is to buy stuff from B&N and I refuse to do that.

161

Is like the record store where old guys like me can get all of the music that we like from the discount rack? Do the ebooks get cheaper the longer they've been published.

Oh, and thanks for the link to the paid site. I'm taking a lesson from the Occufreeloaders and I'm not payin for stuff anymore. Occupy Wall St. Journal!

162 What I like most about the ereader? No books. I read a lot of books. Some of them worth keeping? Not really. Certainly not worth storing for years and years until I want them again. I recently went through every book in the house and got rid of everything except reference works, works that could potentially be used in a scholarly paper, children's books, and certain classics.

163 What happens when you get a new e-book reader?  If it's not owned by the same proprietary company can you transfer your books over?

Yep.

164 Physical media is the "gold standard" for long term durable retained value.  I've got a couple of books printed in the 1830's.  They still work.  Can anyone say the same about e-books?  Technological advances never orphan print media.

165 They should do what textbook companies are doing. Students can buy the "real" book, the e-book, or pay a little more and get both. I may be wrong, but based on what I'm seeing, the book companies would be making a lot more money if they offered that third option.

Not unlike the Blu-ray/DVD combo packs. Pay a little more, get both.

166 I've had a Kindle for a while and I love it.  Every day, Amazon runs a special on a book.  It usually runs between 0.99 and 3.99.  I've downloaded several and found come interesting writing in the process.  They also periodically run "top-100" list where the books are less than 2.99.  They give it different names, but there are some good bargains to be had.  Plus, with an Amazon Prime subscription, you can "borrow" a book and read it.

167

Do the ebooks get cheaper the longer they've been published.

Yeah. But not in a predictable way. I loves me some library e book download. Their audio book download to ipod is also awesome. Makes exercising great because I get to "read" several chapters. Love that.

168 I think all of H. Beam Piper's books are available on Gutenberg, if you need a Sci-Fi fix.

I'm not a sci-fi person, but I'll check it out. Jane Austen and even Dickens becomes just slightly repetitive after awhile.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at December 16, 2011 01:36 PM (IGkEP)

Amazon has collections of thirty to fifty SF stories, novels for about a buck.  Much of Piper, including works that are unavailable, is in there.

169 I got a Nook a few months back and LOVE it. Easy to read, convenient to travel, and I can also watch Netflix on it. I primarily read ebooks I've checked out from the library and from Project Gutenberg. I only buy ebooks by a few authors - Steyn, etc. and I don't really mind spending money on them. Next time, though, I'll get an Android tablet and just download the readers.

170 God, Dickens. Shoot me now.

171

What? What? Project Gutenberg? Another place I can get free books? Really? Pant pant pant.

(Seriously, I am so cheap that I got nauseated christmas shopping yesterday.)

172 http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/ Plenty of Locke and other great reads.

173 Gutenberg is obviously hit-and-miss with quality, but some people put an incredible amount of effort into what they put up there. I got Mahan's book on Admiral Nelson off of Gutenberg, and it had chapter and image links, maps, pictures, everything. Either someone ripped off a published e-book, or they put a lot of time into it.

174

Ace says: "  I'd rather have the Material Download, then."

That is <i>exactly</i> what they're counting on!

I have yet to convert to ebooks. I still like holding a paper book in my hands when I read. And I'm a big consumer of the cheapest form yet: the library. (Oh, I know...don't get on my case about how taxpayers pay for the library. I get it.) I only buy a book nowadays if it's something I know I'll read more than once.

Some books are easier to find in e-form, so I have downloaded or borrowed a few electronic versions. But it'll be a while before I'm a full or even partial convert.

175 There's no difference in cost to the publisher between the e-book and the paper copy. Both electricity and trees are free.

176 Ace, really do check out the ebooks from Baen.com. I have spent hundreds of dollars at Baen over the last decade, way more than I have spent on paper books. Also check out the free ebooks at Feedbooks.com. They have slick ebook editions of a bunch of public-domain stuff. And if you do get an ebook reader, please look at the Nook devices. The Kindle is designed to tie you in to Amazon's ecosystem; the Nook is a more open platform, and the hardware is better.

177 I buy a downloaded song, I can use it limited times, in limited areas, with limited functionality, and pay $1.00/song.  It costs more, has less utility, and technically I never "own" it the way they have it set up.

You must be talking about i-tunes. The Amazon downloads are not like that.

178 I currently have four books for sale on Amazon through a major (technical) publisher. The one routinely tops its category in sales. The kindle versions are almost as expensive as the paper ones. As I'm anonymous-ish on this board, I'm not going to link them -- you'll just have to trust me

The link below shows a cost breakdown for a published work, and it seems about right in my experience.

Go take a look at:
Book cost breakdown

Physical stuff is cheap. Now, there are probably some efficiencies to gain once you remove both distribution and warehousing costs, but that's not necessarily what is driving the price. Large publishers right now are crazy scared. They do not know what to do. They see their whole thing going down the tubes, quite possibly in a catastrophically short span of time. So, you see pricing policies that might be counter-intuitive or just flat out don't make sense. They may be trying to see what demand is really like. What will the market truly support? Is there a place for them in the world of the future? If so, how could they fund an all-digital pipeline?

In general, the very cheap books on Amazon most likely have more lightweight publishing concerns behind them. Just an author and MAYBE someone to read it through once and format it for Kindle direct publishing. The fact that they don't have a paper copy available isn't the reason for the lower price -- it's just a completely different business model.

179 Marketing.  Those publishers pay for space (both physical and virtual) to have their books easier to find.  Finding an indie book can be difficult- it's also hard (for me at least) to shell out money for a book I may hate.

There is no reason any more for publishing companies to have a stranglehold on book marketing. If you don't have to negotiate shelf space and placement with retailers, your book is just a product like any other that can be sold directly to the consumer. There are great opportunities here for creative literary agents with a stable of talent to build their own distribution.

180 "Conversion from print to e-book is startlingly labor-intensive."

If there's been a book in the last 25 years that wasn't put into electronic format before printing, I'll eat it. Shuffling bits ain't a big thing; why do you think Amazon will let you E-mail any ebook file to your Kindle e-mail and convert it on the fly?

181

You guys don't really understand book economics because none of you are actually publishers. The fact is, the cost to produce a paper book is very cheap, on the order of $4.00-$8.00. That's what you hold and see, so you mistake that for the value. Producing a book in e-book format really only saves the cost of the physical book. Publishers are not dealing with "pure profit." They still have all the other production costs, including the whopper of advertising.

You can see the economics play out in the "remainders" section. What do remainders cost? $5-$10. They actually can be more profitable than a book sold at full price, certainly more profitable than one sold at a discount. The publisher very carefully assesses how many copies they will be able to sell. If they figure they can sell 10,000, the cost to physically make the book might be, say $3.00, but if they print 12,500, the cost would drop to $2.50. They intentionally print 12,500, thereby reducing their print cost to $2.50, sell the 10,000, then remainder the 2500 extra books at $5.00, handily recovering their print cost, plus some tidy profit.

 

Michael, Fox Cove Press

182 Some writers are bypassing publishes and selling e-books "direct". Those tend to be MUCH cheaper than paper books. There's a successful thriller writer who has sold over a million novels on Amazon for 99 cents each. Of course, there's junk also. But look at what comic Louis CK just did. He produced his own comedy show on video and sold it online, no drm, for 5 bucks. MADE OVER $500,000! (after costs, over 200-300k profit). Wait until Stephen King decides he wants ALL the money from an ebook - he'll put something on his website and moolah moolah moolah. what good are publishers today anyway? You can use reader reviews to filter out the garbage. And, if the book is cheap enough, you don't risk much by taking a chance. Cheap downloads are already a working model on computer games. Look at sites like GOG.COM. Even new games like Magicka are created to be sold only on downloads. "retail" prices is $10 but there's a sale on Steam 5-6 times a year where it's marked down to $2-3 bucks. And why not? There's almost no marginal cost of production.

183 Oh -- I have a Kindle. For books that I want on my real shelf, I buy the physical version. For stuff that is topical or just informative (pop-philosophy, religion, etc.) I'll look if there's a kindle version availble. If it's within a few bucks of the paperback, I'll just get it on the kindle. It's the convenience: can start reading RIGHT NOW, don't have to dispose of the book when I'm done, they don't make a giant stack beside my bed.

184

Posted by: Michael at December 16, 2011 02:24 PM (qNRMo)

OK, so what about e-books makes them just as, if not more expensive than paper books...especially in 2011 where manuscripts are already in electronic format?

185 Thank the iPad for the pricing "break through".  When Amazon introduced the Kindle, they got the publishers to commit to really good pricing, especially for new releases.  They were the only game and were able to twist some arms.  Better yet, they were able to convince authors and publishers to make out of print titles available (absolute Heaven for those Sci-Fi series freaks or who have been reading particular authors for over 20 years).  When the iPad came out, they didn't back up Amazon instead telling publishers to "ask whatever you want", and Amazon caved rather than risk whether authors would be willing to push their control over their electronic rights with their publishers.  Which is how we now have many ebooks costing more than pulp copies....

186 OK, so what about e-books makes them just as, if not more expensive than paper books...especially in 2011 where manuscripts are already in electronic format?

Whatever the market will bear. If people will pay it, why wouldn't they charge the same price?

187 Reality will set in as soon as the novelty wears. Sometime after new year's. Apologies if someone's already mentioned this.

188 Publishing is just the ugly tip of the iceberg, my friend.  The real behemoth is the printing and logistics industries.

What am I gonna do to fill up unallocated time on my $10 million dollar printing press now, fella?  We had a contract.

189 If you pay for and download something, then decide it sucks and isn't worth finishing 15 minutes later, its still yours -- they got your money and ain't giving it back.
Nope, you can return a Kindle book. I know, because one person did that for one of my books (only one, please no more, I promise to be good!)  I also love the free sample (I think it is the first 10% of the book) and use it religiously to weed out the also-rans in the indie selection.  Now we just have to train authors to compress the front matter (where you thank your mother, your first-grade teacher, and all your cats, by name) so the first five pages are not useless (to the reader).

190 Isn't Amazon talking about getting into the actual publishing side of the business? I gotta say the kindle is one of my favorite gadgets I own. You can't beat the $79 price either.

191 People actually use iBooks? Even on my iPhone and iPad I use Kindle.

192 I'm trying to get a couple of books published. One is fiction, one non-fiction. Is it worth the effort to try to do this the old fashioned way and go through a publishing house, or should I just go straight ahead to self-publishing electronically?

The publishing industry is running around with its hair on fire so logic is playing less and less of a role in its decisions of late.  There are fewer slots available for books (decline and fall of Borders, Barnes & Noble physical store now offering mostly Nooks and plastic toys) so fiction pretty much has to be a guaranteed bestseller to get picked up.  For the non-fiction, it depends on the topic. 

Check out blogs like Joe Konrath and Dean Wesley Smith for the skinny on the current state of play, and advice.  Full disclosure: I am biased in favor of self-publishing, since a) I did it and it is easy-peasy, and b) I spent many years with an agent trying to get in the door with traditional publishing and getting nowhere.

193 People actually use iBooks? Even on my iPhone and iPad I use Kindle.

Believe it or not, there are titles that are cheaper on iBooks. There probably are on Nook, too.

194 Whatever the market will bear. If people will pay it, why wouldn't they charge the same price?

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 16, 2011 02:34 PM (+lsX1)

 

Then the argument from Michael doesn't hold water and we're back to publishing companies gouging customers as a way to dampen e-book sales.

 

195 I think it would be nice if book sellers followed the model used by online video game sellers, like Steam and Direct2Drive. With them what usually happens is a game gets released at the full price, or near-full price, about $60, with maybe a small discount if you pre-order, but after several months the price usually starts coming down. Add to that the fact they frequently have sales, some times daily, and if you're willing to wait a year or two, you are likely to be able to buy the game for under $20. Maybe even well under $10. I have to admit I turned out to be a total sucker for these deep discounts. I honestly went from totally hating everything Steam stands for to now one of the first things I do in the morning is check all the online game merchants to see what's on sale. They threw too many great bargains at me and I turned. Seriously, it was like I was Stan's dad, Randy, in that South Park episode about Walmart. I think if books were sold this way, I'd probably buy a lot more new books. I'd buy more books I was on the fence about and it would make me more likely to buy to buy new over used. In fact, I think this would be a really good way for sellers to pick up some sells that would normally go to used books. I really like the idea of e-readers and I have ever since I tried using my Palm Pilot as a text reader many years ago. My only problem is that I have a lot of non-fiction books with charts, diagrams, pictures, maps, etc. A kindle or android tablet is awesome for paperbacks, but if the book you're reading has a detailed map that spans two pages, it's not all that great.

196 Don't forget project gutenberg Australia (and probably other anglo countries).

http://gutenberg.net.au/

197 I am going to level with you.  The kindle is amazing, for all of the reasons previously stated.  But the real winner, is that when I finish a book, I can get a new one now.  If I am laying on the couch, in bed with the lady, sitting on the shitter, or in an airport bar, any time of the day, night, morning or weekend.  I can have a new book without getting off my ass or waiting 5 days for Amazon to send it.  

198 Volume or margin? I hope volume will win this time, it isn't like we're at a stadium and have to pay five bucks for a hot dog. There are some great stories out there for 99 cents. The editing is unpolished, but a vast majority of the entry level stories are unique and fun. Grisham had to start somewhere. I'd like to pay less for initial releases from major authors, but I also want those exceptional established authors to make their mints. At the same time, If the publishers aren't careful here, they'll lose ground and eventually dry up a'la brick and mortar movie rental chains. A brainiac computer programmer has an opening for one-click electronic publishing. Price point setting is the next hurdle. $3.99 seems good to me. You've made excellent points regarding the cost to the publishers.

My relatively new Kindle has a lot on it for less than twenty bucks. Check out the classics available for free. I am considering dumping Netflix for Amazon Prime. Amazon has a lot of books available for lending for Prime members. Then there is the video and free shipping. If only I'd had the foresight when I bought the hundred dollar streaming blu-ray. Who knows, maybe a firmware will come along for Amazon streaming on my low wnd Vizio dvd player.

199 Posted by: Roger at December 16, 2011 12:46 PM (tAwhy)
Space, for me. My Kindle can hold 3000 books. I don't need a library in my house to store 3000 books. It would be nice to have a sliding two story ladder, fireplace, leather chairs, a cognac decanter, etc. I can't afford it. I can have a library now, just not the kind them rich people gots. Mine comes with a lawn chair and cans of Natty Light. But I have one. Thank God for smart people and capitalism!

200 I hate to sound like a prude, and I don't mean to come off as preachy, but I don't see any difference between the greed of the publishers and the greed of people who use torrent sites.

I am guilty of making a copy of a CD now and then for my friends when I'm trying to expose them to new music, but with you tube, that's not even necessary. ( I do make Christmas compilation CDs every year.)

You rip off the artist when you steal stuff, too, not just the publishers.

If there is a way the artist gets paid from the torrent sites, I apologize for my comments.

201 It isn't capitalism when the largest producers within a market engage in price fixing.

202 As E-Book Readers Get Cheap, E-Books Get... More Expensive Than Books

It's not surprising that this would happen. Some years back, I used to play hockey on a regular basis, and I always used wood sticks. They were typically priced around $32 - $37, depending on the maker. I decided one time to try a composite stick, and while it had its nice points, I wasn't convinced that abandoning all-wood sticks was a wise idea.

One day while at the blue line I wound up and let a shot go and the blade snapped, so I headed on down to the local shop after to see about getting a replacement. You can imagine my surprise when I found that price-wise, there was no difference between an all-wood stick and just the blade for the composite stick. Some of the blades even cost more. Less wood used, same price or higher? And if I somehow managed to snap the composite shaft, it would cost about $80 to replace.

I don't play much now, for various reasons, but when I do I use the wood stick.

203 I do make Christmas compilation CDs every year.

As long as you are making them for yourself it is fair use despite what the assholes say. If you give it away though you are in trouble.

204 140 Slightly off topic, but since we're talking about the new world of books - I'm trying to get a couple of books published. One is fiction, one non-fiction. Is it worth the effort to try to do this the old fashioned way and go through a publishing house, or should I just go straight ahead to self-publishing electronically? I can see the benefits of both, but was wondering if people had advice on this. -------------------------------------------------- You might want to look into Amanda Hocking and how she published her books. She self published and offered he kindle books very cheap. Her 1st one for only $.99. Now she's sold over a million copies of her books for Kindle. I'm sure it won't work for everyone, but it sure worked for her.

205 One is fiction, one non-fiction. Is it worth the effort to try to do this the old fashioned way and go through a publishing house, or should I just go straight ahead to self-publishing electronically?

A few nights ago in the ONT, epobirs gave some really excellent advice on pricing your work; it's Dec 12th, comment 748, if you care to read it.


As long as you are making them for yourself it is fair use despite what the assholes say. If you give it away though you are in trouble.

Saw upthread or on another post that you're getting ready to be able to have cold things again, and I was so happy to hear it!

206 Saw upthread or on another post that you're getting ready to be able to have cold things again, and I was so happy to hear it!

Posted by: Tammy al' Thor at December 16, 2011 03:37 PM (SsG4J)

Oh I get cold stuff about 3 days after chemo. That blocks out about 1 week out of two. Its killing me today though. One of those rare days in Dec in the 70s.

207 as most people said... SPACE!  my collection of Nook books is only about 180 or books or so, but ill add two to the list... (although some people probably already put it... )

1.   Read Anywhere!

If Im in the office, I can just pull out my Nook during some downtime and just crack open ANY of the books that I've downloaded...  i don't have to limit myself to the one or two books I took to the office.

2.  New Authors

 I can find some good reads at low prices, particularly among authors who are just getting started..  (one of my favorite books I ever downloaded was "Bubba and the Dead Woman".. absolutely hilarious read, and i'm definitely now a big fan of C.L. Bevill ... someone I would have never picked up if it werent for an e-book read, simply because i wouldnt' have found them other than through a deal, because no publisher ever pushed them out to the public eye.)

As for sites:  

I'm not sure how much they share layouts.. but if you're a regular user of Gutenberg books, you might also want to try manybooks.net  (Ive found a few on there that were actually good reads, but they may already be on Gutenberg)

208 My favorite purchase of the last three years or so has been my Kindle 2.  It's marvelous having an entire library to lug around without the weight.  I only wish it had a slot for additional storage.

209 There are daily threads on Amazon's Kindle board for free books; some of them are crap, but many are really good and introduce me to authors I never would have picked up otherwise.  Amazon is now set up to work with public libraries via Overdrive, so ebooks can be checked out there.  Amazon also has a new publishing house of its own that is beginning to lure away authors by offering them a larger percentage of sales (vs the traditional cash advances of big agencies) and autonomy to write what they wish (big example is romance novel "powerhouse" Connie Brockway who wanted to write novels set in places other than Regency England but her publisher told her they wouldn't sell, so she couldn't. She just released her first Montlake -aka Amazon's romance publishing arm - novel a few weeks ago that is doing very well. She's done an interview explaining all of the perks Amazon offers authors that led her to sign with them over her former publisher).  It's going to be an interesting few years in the ebook arena I think.

210 78 Who will be left to speak when the Machines come for me?
___________

Dude. Speaking machines are sooooo last century.

211 The NY Publishers real targets are Indie Authors. This technology provides a truly libertarian (small "l") means of publishing, which cuts out the middle men and cultural gatekeepers. If you're interested in some relativity cheap reads, I'd recommended places like Smashwords. To learn more about all this I also suggest you follow J.A. Konrath's "A Newbie's Guide to Publishing" and Meira Pentermann over at Big Hollywood, who explains why she went Indie. http://alturl.com/n7fw8

212 Oops wrong url... Here's the right one. http://alturl.com/x37nr

213 It's all about the sales channels for books. If they reduce the price today to reflect inherent costs, they will speed the adoption of more ebooks. In the meantime, existing channels (B&N, etc) that provide real estate and promotion will see their biz model go upside down quick. They will also put all their publishing eggs in the Amazon basket and have less control over their sales and marketing. Amazon will dictate the price. The publishers have to protect existing sales assets while not letting Amazon get the upper hand on distribution. This is what happened to the toy industry with Walmart. In a few years Walmart was 70% of the toy vendors sales and they didn't like it. Will the big box book store die? Probably or transform. Ebooks are the future, but the existing infrastructure can't change over night without lots of folks losing control. If Amazon had a real competitor, you would see faster adoption.

214 I like physical books. I have a fairly good sized library of books in my study (just off the withdrawing room) that I enjoy reading and looking at. My books are my decorative statement damn it! OK taking my Thorazine now.... mmmm tranquility....

215 The only ebooks that are getting that expensive are the rip off ones from mainstream publishers. Books like Old Habits which I wrote (please buy one!) sell for $1.99 and that's not an unusual price for ebooks. Anything over 5 bucks is too much for an ebook, especially since you can get them for free and many are 99 cents.

Stick it to the publishing houses. They screw their writers.

216

Not to mention that the product you are getting, or at least, the enjoyment of that product, or even the experience you have interacting with the product is vastly different between an E-book and a real book.  As good as a Kindle may be, it still doesn't really compare - on a quality basis - to a REAL book.  So not only do I want to see a significant savings based on the fact that the additional cost to the publisher is ZERO, but also I want to see a decent discount based on the fact that I'm settling for a lesser version of the same product. 

The fact is, the entirety of the media publishing and distributing industries are FUCKED UP on this topic.  Music, TV, Movies and Books are all now subject to the same irrational stupidity whereby you effectively try and make the digital experience WORSE for a paying customer than for pirates. 

Its completely idiotic.  And what's more, they don't seem to have a clue that people are MORE drawn to the e-book version for the instant gratification of a download now that there are less and less brick and mortar book stores that can sell you a hardcopy of a book right now.  Brick and mortar stores likely being the absolute smallest profit margins for publishers, THAT's the model they still want to prop up. 

217

The place this pricing system pisses me off the most with my kindle is in older books that are in paperback, that I can find used or at target for 2-4 dollars off, but are selling on kindle for full retail price.  That is ridiculous!

I know it isn't amazon but they need to convince these idiots that used makes them NO money, while a moderately priced kindle book might make them 4 dollars (or whatever).

I do love my kindle still.  If you like classics you can get tons for cheap or free, and you can get independent books, which are fun but of variable quality

218 When a dead tree book is cheaper, I buy the dead tree book. When the ebook is cheaper, I buy the ebook.   I'm spending less on books because I also check out ebooks from the LIBRARY.  Free ebooks for a month...  I agree ebooks can cost too much, and you don't really own them.  You can't resell them and you can't burn them to heat your house.

219 I suspect that the publishers own or have interests in the printers, warehouses, etc. So, they can charge themselves for doing the printing, warehousing, etc. So, then they can show less profits on their book sales and then payout less to the authors. It was the same with music. There are a lot of ways that those guys use to say to the artist "We can only pay you this much because look at all our overhead." When in fact, they are making money on each of the processes in that overhead.

220 I love my Kindle, for all the reasons other Kindle lovers have stated.  Also, I really enjoy finding an indie author who has self-published on Amazon Direct Publishing.

Yes, quite a few of them are either bad writers, or did not have anyone edit the work, so a lot are rather messy.  However, the so-called "publisher" e-books are just as often badly formatted and not edited.  Given a choice between an indie messy book and a "published" messy book, I'll go with the indie book, which is pretty much always cheaper. If an indie's work is bad, I'm only out a few cents.  If a "published" work is bad, I'm out a whole lot more.  Furthermore, the self-published author gets 70% (35% in EU countries) of the book's price, versus 10-15% after a "publisher" has taken its cut.

The publishing industry has moved far away from proofreading and editing.  The author is stuck doing the vast majority of that work, and the publishing house just takes the info, throws it at their particular computer software, and the book gets published with bad writing, worse grammar, and awful spelling and formatting.

I'd rather support the author, not the publishing house.

221 I like both formats and wish that publishers would bundle a free download code with the purchase of a hardback.

222

I much prefer my Kindle to hard copy books, and I've been reading a lot more since getting it this past January than I did in previous years.  I don't really compare prices between hard copies and ebooks... if I want an ebook and the price is one I'm willing to pay, I'll buy it.

Also, I've seen many people on the Amazon forums completely ignore the fact that, at least for new releases, the ebooks need to pull their weight in helping recoup all the costs associated with advances, editing, marketing, etc.

I don't like the "Agency Model", where the retailer just acts as an agent for the publisher, who is the actual seller, much, but I guess we can thank Steve Jobs for that.  But, what are we asking for as an alternative?  An "Ebook Czar" under the Obama administration to set prices?

223 I notice a few insiders say that the material costs aren't a major component of the physical book. I suspect they use the same accountants Hollywood does where no picture EVER makes a profit.

224 Ebooks are destroying American jobs, just like those darned ATMs and the internet.

225 I notice a few insiders say that the material costs aren't a major component of the physical book. I suspect they use the same accountants Hollywood does where no picture EVER makes a profit. ---------------------------------------------- Yeah, the comic book industry used the cost of paper as excuse for raising prices for years. They said it was out of their hands. Paper was expensive. Now most comics are becoming available digital they're oddly singing a different tune. Now the cost of creating and shipping a physical comics isn't that much of a factor and they can't offer digital comics for less...

226 Yup. B&N Nook books, too. Cheaper to buy the real thing thru amazon in almost all cases, not counting the sales tax savings.. And considering the same book off the shelf at B&N is sometimes a dollar or two cheaper than their nook book equivalent - - I am about to give up not just on nook (which I otherwise like), but on B&N. Can you say "browse the shelves then order from Amazon"? I'd feel guilty about it if I didn't feel they were ripping me off. And, I enjoy passing a good one along to someone else.

227 Ace--I came to this thread late but wanted you to know that the public libraries are now lending ebooks. I downloaded 5 for a recent trip. They are good for three weeks on your Kindle. And free. Hope this helps.

228 us.kinlibdotcom They list Free Kindle books everyday Yes there is a lot of trash but I've found a few gems

229 oh and I love my Kindle. I find the ereader ink to be very easy on the eyes and a pleasure to read. I bought the Amazon cover with built in LED light (it is powered by the Kindle-remarkable).

230

Wow i really found this to be an interesting read; thanks for sharing

231
Excellent blog, thanks for the share. I'll be a regular viewer.

232 The "MySQL Reference" movie stars little Bobby Drop_Tables, search xkcd for the cartoon.

233 Thanks for sharing, please keep an update about this info. love to read it more. i like this site too much.

234 There are also two kindle blogs that are excellent.  blog.booksontheknob.org and kindleworld.blogspot.com.  Both point out free and reduced price books in the different bookstores.
The kindle bookstore is overwhelmed with free books right now because Amazon published authors were allowed to reduce their price to free if they participated in the Amazon prime lending library.

235 inflation is inflation and i want 7% return for simply throwing money into a company. used to be i had to save enough to buy a block, now i can e-trade and buy 6.009. shares of any fuckin thing. how does that work in this fucked up equation? by the way, my house (the place i live and stuff) isn't turning a mad profit. dig a ditch, write a book. find out what it takes to earn a dollar. horse race investing. the brilliant thing about social security was automatic (undisciplined) withdrawals. now a hamburger flipper gets medical as a perk and STILL won't throw 3% pre-tax into the miraculously available 401k. the stock market used to be like playing golf. exclusive. now that the masses are involved, and they want their shit and they want it now. buy a kindle for seventy-nine or a fire for two hundred. it is a toy for fuck's sake. not like that two hundred bucks is gonna get you two million in 30 years, even if EF Hutton pulls strings and makes you privy to how and when to move your disposable income. eat spam for lunch for a month and you've got the wherewithal to substitute that money for a crazy ass miracle of a toy. 

236 Yep! I was agreed, I'll keep in touch to your blog.

237 There is a social penalty to public expressions of some hatred. This tends to make them infrequent and tempered when they do arise.