March 08, 2011
— Ace That seems to be the case.
Project Gunrunner" deployed new teams of agents to the southwest border. The idea: to stop the flow of weapons from the US to Mexico's drug cartels. But in practice, sources tell CBS News, ATF's actions had the opposite result: they allegedly facilitated the delivery of thousands of guns into criminal hands....
Jaime Avila was one of the suspicious buyers [at American gun stores]. ATF put him in its suspect database in January of 2010. For the next year, ATF watched as Avila and other suspects bought huge quantities of weapons supposedly for "personal use." They included 575 AK-47 type semi-automatic rifles.
ATF managers allegedly made a controversial decision: allow most of the weapons on the streets. The idea, they said, was to gather intelligence and see where the guns ended up. Insiders say it's a dangerous tactic called letting the guns, "walk."
One agent called the strategy "insane." Another said: "We were fully aware the guns would probably be moved across the border to drug cartels where they could be used to kill."
2,500 such weapons flowed to Mexican gangs while being "watched" by this program. The weapons were used in gun-battles against Mexican government agents as well as against US border patrol -- one agent in a special border squad, Brian Terry, was killed with a weapon traced back to a US shop.
Interestingly, some of the shops actually asked the ATF to intervene; the ATF told them to keep selling to the suspicious buyers.
Supposedly this is part of some sting. Supposedly the ATF is "watching" to see where the guns end up. Supposedly, then, this will involve, at some point, a massive bust, the impact of which exceeds the costs accrued along the way, like dead Mexican cops and dead American border patrol officers.
I'm having trouble imagining how the moving parts work together in this case. I know that drug cases are often made by allowing drug sales and tracking them (or even being part of the drug sale, as a buyer or seller). But I don't see how you keep your eyes on guns, given that they're going to be widely distributed in a large number of hands. (Drugs are too, when large bulk quantities are broken up for individual sale, but usually the DEA doesn't care about that last step; they're looking at making busts at the higher levels when the narcotics are in bulk and in fewer hands.) Usually in these sorts of stings, the drugs are seized (and all of the conspirators arrested) before the drugs are sold on the street. That's the point.
But here, the guns are all on the street, so if there's a big bust coming -- what's the hold-up?
There is always a good chance that we don't know enough to understand this program, that there is some information we're missing so that we don't see how the ultimate payoff will come about. Who knows, maybe each gun has some kind of tracking bug hidden in the stock or something. Well, not that. That seems technologically un-doable. But something.
Based on the information we have, though, this seems crazy.
Senator Chuck Grassley is requesting documents from the ATF explaining and justifying this supposed sting. He has agents screaming about the craziness of this program, effectively ending their careers to act as whistleblowers. But the ATF is not complying with these requests.
Sources and Methods: I understand if the agency is running a covert mission and wants to keep its methods secret. Perhaps there's a technological component which is secret. Perhaps their plan is sophisticated and novel and they don't want to tip their hand to the targets.
But that's a reason to keep the information from the public, not from a senator with a high security clearance.
It's okay if this information is kept from me, as there is no way to get the information to me while keeping it away from the narcotics gangs. But you can get the information to Grassley.
I'd like to know from an outside, independent authority that this whole scheme s not in some way corrupt, is, in the full plan, plausible, and has a fair chance of actually working. I don't want to just hear from the ATF that, in their conclusion (and Eric Holder's) we shouldn't worry about it.
One scenario hits me: Maybe this is being done to curry favor with some narco-criminals in order to develop a relationship with them, so they are incentivized to rat on jihadist terrorists attempting to buy passage from Mexico into the US.
Maybe that's it. Maybe we're trading guns for tips.
But if that's the case, it seems to me that we are trading an awful lot for these tips, and further, this would just be a way to avoid the need for just sealing the border. That is, the Obama Administration may have decided for political reasons it doesn't want to seal the border, but they also want to have some control of the border as far as terrorists (any terrorist coming into the US from Mexico would almost doom Obama's chances of reelection). So this may be their corrupt method of having it both ways, with the occasional dead cop as the cost.
If that's the case, I want to know. I think that's a corrupt, self-serving, politically-motived plan in that case.
Posted by: Ace at
08:38 AM
| Comments (266)
Post contains 915 words, total size 6 kb.
WTF are they doing with this? Let the FBI handle it. Maybe, just maybe they won't fuck it up as badly as the BATF did.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 08:41 AM (mAhn3)
The guns are already illegal in Mexico- if the Federales were going/able to do anything, they already would have. Are we going to wait for Presidente Calderon to ask us to invade his country?
I mean, I think it's time to invade anyway, but we know that's off the table, so what, exactly, does the ATF plan to do, here? Burn down Ciudad Juarez?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 08:42 AM (8y9MW)
hey, I have an idea!
Let's give some Muslims some enriched uranium and track where they take it. Maybe it will lead to a major bust.
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 08:42 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 08:43 AM (u4JjU)
THREAD WINNER!!!
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 08:43 AM (mAhn3)
I believe there is a law on the books that prohibits Federal Agents from selling narcotics for stings like this.
Posted by: Jean at March 08, 2011 08:44 AM (WkuV6)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 08:44 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: Jeffrey Quick at March 08, 2011 08:45 AM (g9neE)
China will sell full auto ak-47s for about 50 bucks a copy, and drop off full containers of them wherever you want. Why would people bother getting retail rifles semi-auto only, and risk bringing them over the border, at $400+ a copy?
Something doesn't smell right.
Posted by: Rebar at March 08, 2011 08:45 AM (uPpYX)
And THIS:
7 It feels like we are all living in an ant farm on the nightstand of a ten year old sociopath.
Yep.
Posted by: Jane D'oh *cough, hack, cough* at March 08, 2011 08:45 AM (UOM48)
Posted by: The Border Patrol at March 08, 2011 08:46 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Oldsailor at March 08, 2011 08:46 AM (oBXlb)
I wonder if ATF ever briefed State?
Posted by: Jean at March 08, 2011 08:46 AM (WkuV6)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 12:44 PM (u4JjU)
Whew! I hope I'm never around when that happens!
Posted by: Joe "Super Genius" Biden at March 08, 2011 08:46 AM (iuRdZ)
WTF are they doing with this? Let the FBI handle it. Maybe, just maybe they won't fuck it up as badly as the BATF did
It's a play for more power and funding; par for the course with any federal agency. With the stellar record they've built up at Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc, who can blame them for feeling awesome?
Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 08, 2011 08:47 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 12:44 PM (u4JjU)
Whew! I hope I'm never around when that happens!
Posted by: Joe "Super Genius" Biden at March 08, 2011 12:46 PM (iuRdZ)
Damn it. Hot coffee through the nose hurts.
Posted by: Jane D'oh *cough, hack, cough* at March 08, 2011 08:47 AM (UOM48)
Ease of access/alacrity of acquisition.
Buying them from China (however cheap) means waiting for them to be delivered. Also, there's the chance the container will be intercepted. As a long gun in Texas, you can go buy it take it home today.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 08:47 AM (8y9MW)
Didn't this start as Mexico and HRC blaming cross border gun sales on unscrupulous American gun sellers ( probably Tea Party scum) feeding the violence in Mexico.
I wonder if ATF ever briefed State?
The ATF are the ones perpetuating the myth that 90% of the firearms used by the cartels came from US gun dealers. It's completely untrue and the ATF knows it, but by pushing the falsehood they can push for more power and funding to "do something".
Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 08, 2011 08:50 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 08, 2011 08:50 AM (1fB+3)
The amount of money—cash money—flowing in the drug trade is beyond your wildest imagination. Tens of billions of dollars. The Mexican drug lords have corrupted officials on both sides of the border, at the highest possible levels. Why not the ATF? Money talks, guns walk. Makes perfect sense.
[Via Instapundit]
Posted by: andycanuck at March 08, 2011 08:50 AM (7H/n0)
Possession of a class 3 weapon when you don't have the paperwork is good for 10 years at Club Fed. Lying about your criminal past and buying a semi-auto is only good for a year.
A lot of people are willing to do a year if caught, less are willing to do a dime.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 08:51 AM (i8J8M)
Let's barbecue a few families that the NYT decides are weird, funny, and expendable!
That will divert attention form our failing crazy crime experiments.
Posted by: BATF, A Division of Jackboots R US at March 08, 2011 08:51 AM (u4JjU)
By executive order, 2nd term President Barack Obama has ordered all American citizens to immediately turn over their semi-automatic and scoped rifles to conveniently located turn-in centers. All firearm dealerships are to be shut down, and all domestic sales of ammunition to be suspended until the newly declared state of national emergency is lifted. "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in!"
Posted by: Headlines of the future at March 08, 2011 08:51 AM (9KHlc)
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 12:42 PM (uFokq)
We have to pass it(on) so we can find it.
Posted by: Nancy & Co. at March 08, 2011 08:51 AM (FIDMq)
I can't believe a drug cartel would have problems acquiring select fire weapons of any design. They've got a pile of money to spend on weapons, and the best they can do is semi-auto rifles bought from a gun store in Texas? Don't they have connections to arms dealers around the world? They can ship their product anywhere can't they? Why can't they import some decent guns the same way?
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 08:52 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: Douglas at March 08, 2011 08:52 AM (YKOnu)
From what I understand (the first I heard of this was on Laura Ingraham's show yesterday) the Dems in the Senate are refusing to hold hearings on this, so subpoenas can't be issued. So why can't the House hold hearings on it? Or for that matter, can't somebody file an FOIA?
Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at March 08, 2011 08:52 AM (IoUF1)
Posted by: JEM at March 08, 2011 08:52 AM (o+SC1)
Obama Administration in drug and gun running partnership with mexican drug cartels.
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 08, 2011 08:53 AM (qqrPQ)
Posted by: Have Blue at March 08, 2011 08:53 AM (mV+es)
China will sell full auto ak-47s for about 50 bucks a copy, and drop off full containers of them wherever you want.
Posted by: Rebar at March 08, 2011 12:45 PM (uPpYX)
Wonder if they would do an airdrop?
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 08:54 AM (FIDMq)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 08:54 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: DarkLord, phoning it in at March 08, 2011 08:54 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: The Border Patrol at March 08, 2011 08:54 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Rebar at March 08, 2011 08:54 AM (uPpYX)
Like Purple Avenger pointed out: 10 years vs 1 if you get caught. Also, my understanding is that it isn't that difficult to modify an AK (or even an AR) for full auto or some sort of burst fire.
There may also be a quality issue. I don't know this, but if China's exports of firearms are as good as their exports of toys, I know I wouldn't want to be shooting one in a real fight.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 08:54 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 08, 2011 12:54 PM (Cm66w)
another idea brought to you via the bestest and brightest
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 08:56 AM (FIDMq)
I'm really afraid you're right.
I just convinced my wife the other day that we need an actual gun in the house. Now we get to have the discussion of how many is appropriate...
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 08:56 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 08:56 AM (AZGON)
Then he'll use it as an excuse to ban as much as he can.
Posted by: joe-sixpack at March 08, 2011 08:56 AM (KxzO6)
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 08, 2011 08:56 AM (qqrPQ)
Posted by: Barbarian at March 08, 2011 08:57 AM (EL+OC)
I'm not talking about strawman purchases of legal weapons in Texas. I'm talking about a cartel honcho using his connections to buy a huge order of high quality Russian/European arms from overseas. No further dinkering necessary to convert the weapons to full auto.
Remember that Nicholas Cage movie where he was a gun runner? That.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 08:58 AM (mAhn3)
Probably half the gray-market "arms dealers" are ATF agents and those that aren't are dealing in 2nd rate heavily used product of dubious serviceability.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 08:59 AM (i8J8M)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 08, 2011 08:59 AM (qIHlG)
It's a part of the Justice Department now. It was moved from Treasury around the same time DHS was created.
Posted by: UGAdawg at March 08, 2011 09:00 AM (osx1V)
Good news! Chinese ammunition contains less lead than the toys! May we put you down for 10k rounds of 7.62x39?
Posted by: Hoki Doke Guns And Toy Company at March 08, 2011 09:00 AM (2PTT7)
Ease of access/alacrity of acquisition.
Buying them from China (however cheap) means waiting for them to be delivered. Also, there's the chance the container will be intercepted. As a long gun in Texas, you can go buy it take it home today.
Sure, but you still have to sneak them back across the border after arranging for a straw buyer, who's going to want his cut. Then you have to find a gunsmith to convert it to full auto (I'm assuming they do this).
No doubt that some of the weapons used by the cartels came from the US, but I suspect most come from the Mexican police / military or elsewhere from Central American smugglers.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 08, 2011 09:00 AM (SY2Kh)
Don't give the IAEA even more hare-brained ideas.
IIRC, there was an attempt to cripple Iranian nuclear weapons design by "leaking" a flawed design for the warhead assembly. It would have worked, however, some nuclear expert saw the plans before they reached the Iranians and this guy "helpfully" corrected the errors.
/Heard that on Rush awhile ago.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 08, 2011 09:00 AM (9hSKh)
At least that might have killed some of the bad guys. Instead, we hatch a plan to kill our guys.
Iran-Contra was a HUGE scandal; this? this is nothing, move along--isn't 0bama dreamy?
Posted by: jimmuy at March 08, 2011 09:01 AM (3izQj)
Never saw it, but I get the idea.
IDK. If it were me, I'd do it on the theory that buying fewer at a time makes me look less like an actual fledgling military. The Federales and Mexican Army aren't up to our standards, but if the cartels are too blatant, the Mexican Government will be forced to respond effectively- instead of just taking the bribes and kickbacks they've traditionally taken.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:01 AM (8y9MW)
Then how do these cartel heads get busted with non-store weapons? I've seen a few pics of Mexican federales posing with busted weapons and they include the usual gamut of pistols, shotguns, rifles, etc. Then they also show mortars and crew-served heavy MG's that you CANNOT buy anywhere in the US. Where the fuck are they getting these weapons?!?!
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 09:02 AM (mAhn3)
Remember that blurb a while back that we had to tighten gun laws in the US because guns from the US were being hustled across the border and used against Mexico and causing drug violence? Remember that when the accusation was made the media roar was strong but then an objective look at the numbers concluded that not so many weapons were legally sold in the US after all? Looks like the proponents of that theory may have found a way to make that number big enough re-open the "We need gun control for Mexico's sake" argument, through simple non-enforcement; Even when asked by responsible dealers.
</TINFOIL>
Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 08, 2011 09:02 AM (0q2P7)
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 08, 2011 12:50 PM (1fB+3)
Perhaps thread winner was called too soon.
Posted by: Mr. Barky at March 08, 2011 09:03 AM (qwK3S)
Nationwide Crime Outbreak Continues
Thousands of angry, paranoid, predominantly white, gun owners across the country have decided to barricade themselves inside their homes and fight to the death rather than surrender their now-revoked 2nd Amendment Rights.
Assurances by First Chairman Barak Obama at a 12minute press conference, held at the prestigious Pebble Beach Golf Resort and People's Park, that their rights will be returned to them at some later date have done nothing to quell the violence.
Police and Fire Department Unions are requesting an emergency appropriation of $3.9Billion to provide aid to over-extended life insurance and benefit plans.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:03 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: Rebar at March 08, 2011 09:03 AM (uPpYX)
No doubt that some of the weapons used by the cartels came from the US, but I suspect most come from the Mexican police / military or elsewhere from Central American smugglers.
Right. Mexican cartels started out as smugglers for the Colombian cartels, so they already had business connections. I seriously doubt it's hard to get an automatic weapon in Colombia.
Posted by: UGAdawg at March 08, 2011 09:03 AM (osx1V)
You are dealing with small scale smugglers here. They don't have the resources to ship a container of AKs from China, and bribe Mex officials enough to let the container enter the country.
The big gangs just buy their M-16s in container lots from the Mexican Army.
Posted by: Kristopher at March 08, 2011 09:04 AM (atS82)
If I was Sen Grassley, the very first question I'd ask the chief of the BATF is:
"I'm assuming none of these 2,500 guns were not functional weapons, right? Because only a fucking dunce would allow dangerous criminals to walk away with a perfectly functioning weapon."
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:04 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: USA at March 08, 2011 09:04 AM (YZISw)
Posted by: AFL-CIO/ATF at March 08, 2011 09:04 AM (mvSlb)
We'll stop sending guns if you stop sending drywallers and dish-washers.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:04 AM (u4JjU)
Banks give them out as incentives for CD purchases. I saw it in a Michael Moore movie!
Posted by: Guy That Works At Noodles And Is Fed Up With The Patriarchy, Man! at March 08, 2011 09:05 AM (2PTT7)
May not be that much product on the used/gray market these days. With all the instability in the world, the collapse of the Soviet Union, Baltic states cozying up to the west, I don't think things are as freewheeling as they were say 10-15 years ago when it was still like the wild west.
Just the US purchases of AK's for the IA/IP and Afghanistani army/police probably sucked up a significant amount of the production of new gear.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:06 AM (i8J8M)
Nice summary of this whole administration, really.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:06 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:07 AM (UK9cE)
I can't think of a more reliable source of weapons for any crazy somebitch or terrorist than that.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:08 AM (u4JjU)
*cough* Hugo Chavez *cough*
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:08 AM (i8J8M)
Better late than never.
General Franco is STILL dead!
Posted by: Kemp at March 08, 2011 09:08 AM (JpFM9)
I just can't believe that that they would have to resort to smuggling in guns across the border, a few at a time, using strawman purchases. It seems so....lame.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 09:08 AM (mAhn3)
I'm sure the ATF had a boffo gun recovery plan.......
Posted by: Everybody Wang Dong tonight at March 08, 2011 09:08 AM (61BD9)
No! They bought them off-the-shelf in Canadian Wal-Marts because Canadians don't fear the black man.
Posted by: andycanuck at March 08, 2011 09:09 AM (7H/n0)
I'm not a very malicious person, but I look forward to seeing that crud hanging from his heels in front of a Caracas Citgo station sometime in the near future, deader than disco. Sean Penn standing in front of him holding a bouquet of daisies and biting his lip trying not to cry would be icing on the cake.
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at March 08, 2011 09:11 AM (2PTT7)
Posted by: Oldsailor at March 08, 2011 09:11 AM (oBXlb)
Well, as much as we fear the possibility, virtually no terrorists (muslim, narco, or otherwise) are really all that sophisticated. There are some, granted, and they often do the planning for others. In this case, however, I suspect they don't have the means to do what you're suggesting, or they're not clever enough to figure out the logistics.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:12 AM (8y9MW)
They should be disbanded or rolled into the FBI (those who can qualify). FBI should handle it all.
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 08, 2011 09:12 AM (EMuWJ)
Tell her that the ratio of shoes to guns in the house should be 1-1.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at March 08, 2011 09:12 AM (tf9Ne)
Posted by: Dirty Ernie at March 08, 2011 09:13 AM (Q5+Og)
Ace, you're giving this current gov too much fucking credit and smarts to do something that Machiavellian. Trying to win favour with Mexican cartels so they can get tips on rival cartels or jihadis or MS-13 gangbangers using guns as currency strikes me as incredibly ham-fisted in its approach. There are other less bloody ways of trying to win over a potential turncoat.
Money.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 09:13 AM (mAhn3)
Although I'd settle for some manwhore giving Chavez a new asshole in the middle of his forehead with a .22.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:13 AM (u4JjU)
My guess: Obama is trying to get scary-looking weapons banned again by making it look like the gun dealers are flooding Mexico with cheap Ak-47's out of greed.
If you let 2,500 guns slip through it's not your typical sting.
Posted by: Ed Anger at March 08, 2011 09:13 AM (7+pP9)
Posted by: Headlines of the future at March 08, 2011 12:51 PM (9KHlc)
Didn't he already try this with his 'turn in your neighbor' website? I mean, FUCK this guy. It's a good thing we've got Barney the purple fucking dinosaur in the White House calling the shots. We might be in a bit of trouble.
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:13 AM (UK9cE)
I thought the rule was that he can't deny, but he can deflect. That is, this exchange would be fine:
Owner: "You a cop?"
Undercover Agent: "Do I look like a cop?"
while this one would not:
O: "You a cop?"
UA: "No."
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:14 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: maddogg at March 08, 2011 09:15 AM (OlN4e)
Bloggers David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh have been running working this story for more than a month. They're the ones who got Grassley moving; they're the ones who (ultimately) got CBS in the game.
Posted by: Ken at March 08, 2011 09:15 AM (Xl3xp)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 09:15 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 08, 2011 09:17 AM (Cm66w)
A pox on all of them.
Posted by: snookered at March 08, 2011 09:17 AM (go4rb)
(@65)
This. You say tinfoil, but it's the most sensible explanation.
Posted by: Methos at March 08, 2011 09:17 AM (Ew1k4)
Dirty ATF agents getting rich.
Obama and Clinton get their American guns into Mexico.
Drug gangs kill Americans.
Guns get banned.
Journolice get their stories.
Drug users get their drugs.
Clinics get their patients.
It's a win-win for all these miserable fuckstains.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:18 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 08, 2011 09:18 AM (Cm66w)
OT: another human foot in a running shoe washes up on a Vancouver Beach. This makes 8 of them so far all in running shoes.
The authorities say they don't know why so many feet are washing up but I do and so do you. It's the Jooooo doctor feet stealers that Obama warned us about!
Posted by: robtr at March 08, 2011 09:19 AM (MtwBb)
Posted by: PJ at March 08, 2011 09:19 AM (QdxaI)
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 08, 2011 09:20 AM (qqrPQ)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 08, 2011 01:18 PM (Cm66w)
Welcome to an Obamanation!!!!
Today is Buck Farack day!!! Every day is Buck Farack day!!!!
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:20 AM (UK9cE)
<TINFOIL>
Remember that blurb a while back that we had to tighten gun laws in the US because guns from the US were being hustled across the border and used against Mexico and causing drug violence? Remember that when the accusation was made the media roar was strong but then an objective look at the numbers concluded that not so many weapons were legally sold in the US after all? Looks like the proponents of that theory may have found a way to make that number big enough re-open the "We need gun control for Mexico's sake" argument, through simple non-enforcement; Even when asked by responsible dealers.
</TINFOIL>
Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 08, 2011 01:02 PM (0q2P7)
No tinfoil necessary.Posted by: Ed Anger at March 08, 2011 09:21 AM (7+pP9)
**AoS Exclusive**
BATF chief responds to critics of his Guns-for-Casual Observations program. "Duh, winning," he said.
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:21 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 08, 2011 09:21 AM (0GFWk)
May not be that much product on the used/gray market these days. With all the instability in the world, the collapse of the Soviet Union, Baltic states cozying up to the west, I don't think things are as freewheeling as they were say 10-15 years ago when it was still like the wild west.
Just the US purchases of AK's for the IA/IP and Afghanistani army/police probably sucked up a significant amount of the production of new gear.
There's no shortage of AKs floating around, and they're cheap and easy to manufacture, with stamped recievers and loose tolerances. None of us will live long enough to see a worldwide shortage of Kalashnikovs.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 08, 2011 09:22 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 08, 2011 09:22 AM (F1BaX)
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 08, 2011 12:50 PM (1fB+3)
Pray the Cali and AZ morons have their shots up to date
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 09:22 AM (FIDMq)
Cops can do or say anything they want. Lie, cheat, steal, do drugs, bang your wife, shoot your dog.
Because once the cuffs go on you, it's the entire United States Government and the MBM against your poor drug selling, right-wing extremist, wife-beating, criminal ass.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:22 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:22 AM (UK9cE)
Ordinary citizen "Leon Pedro": What one?
Holder: What?
Leon: What desert?
Holder: It doesn't make any difference what desert, it's completely hypothetical.
Leon: But, how come I'd be there?
Holder: Maybe you're fed up. Maybe you want to be by yourself. Who knows? You look down and see an AK-47, Leon.
Leon: [feigns surprise] AK-47? What's that?
Holder: [irritated by Leon's interruptions] You know what an AR-15 is?
Leon: Of course!
Holder: Same thing.
Leon: I've never seen a AK-47... But I understand what you mean.
Holder: You reach down and you flip the AK-47 over on its back, Leon.
Leon: Do you make up these questions, Mr. Holden? Or do they write 'em down for you?
Holder: The AK-47 lays on its back, its magazine well baking in the hot sun, beating its trigger guard trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping.
Leon: [angry at the suggestion] What do you mean, I'm not helping?
Holder: I mean: you're not helping! Why is that, Leon?
[Leon has become visibly shaken]
Holder: They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response... Shall we continue?
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 09:24 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 09:24 AM (AZGON)
The SOG had an operation called "Fortunate Son" or "Prodigal Son" or something like that in Vietnam. They took regular 7.62x39 ammo and replaced the gunpowder with high explosives. When an NVA or VC fired one, the bolt of his rifle would often be blown right through his face. They would sneak into ammo dumps in North Vietnam and a replace a round or two at a time so it was unlikely to be detected. They did the same thing with the propellant in mortar rounds on a more limited basis.
I'd imagine it wouldn't be terribly difficult to do this with ammo used by the narcos in Mexico.
Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at March 08, 2011 09:24 AM (IoUF1)
Its not that big a deal if you simply play it 100% straight with the 4473's, call in the checks, keep your log book up to date, and dutifully notify ATF if anything looks suspicious. Like any govt bureaucracy, ATF is very big on paperwork.
More FFL's probably get into trouble over technical paperwork infractions than selling shit to people that shouldn't have it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:25 AM (i8J8M)
NO! You are not one of The Folks.
Posted by: Team FOX at March 08, 2011 09:26 AM (EL+OC)
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 08, 2011 12:50 PM (1fB+3)
Oh, we're much crueler than that. When you shoot them, instead of bullets panties come out and land on the shooter's heads.
Posted by: arhooley at March 08, 2011 09:26 AM (0H+VD)
OT: another human foot in a running shoe washes up on a Vancouver Beach. This makes 8 of them so far all in running shoes.
Oh oh, its LAND SHARK!
Posted by: maddogg at March 08, 2011 09:26 AM (OlN4e)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 09:26 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 08, 2011 09:27 AM (0GFWk)
Okay, there's the rules, and then there's what people do. I was talking about the rules.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:27 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 09:28 AM (AZGON)
I'm choking here, literally.
Posted by: Jane D'oh *cough, hack, cough* at March 08, 2011 09:30 AM (UOM48)
What's this?
Cindy McCain, a.k.a. John McCain's [redacted], is flying around the world with Ben cocksucker Affleck pretending to be humanitarians?
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:30 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:30 AM (u4JjU)
Cindy McCain, a.k.a. John McCain's [redacted], is flying around the world with Ben cocksucker Affleck's pretending to be humanitarians dick in her?
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:31 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 09:32 AM (AZGON)
Supposed to be a very effective PsyOp in the areas it was used...
Here, we have some measure of control over the weapons though..."special" batches could be ordered with substandard heat treat and/or alloys on the critical parts that would render them unserviceable after a few hundred rounds.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:32 AM (i8J8M)
Someone always has to bring up Meghan McCain.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 01:28 PM (AZGON)
I'd give Megan a Strawberry Shortcake. That's about it.
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:32 AM (UK9cE)
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Tiajuana strippers servicing a tumescent donkey off the shoulder from San Diego. Real Mexican food that doesn't give you the shits. All those moments will be lost in time...like tears...in rain. Time to mariachi!
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 09:32 AM (mAhn3)
Like Wile E. Coyote, the ATF are certified geniuses. Why limit their "walking" program to guns when they could just as easily let 2,500 cases of C-4 and thermite "walk" around to gather intelligence see what happens.
Posted by: Count de Monet at March 08, 2011 09:32 AM (XBM1t)
"OT: another human foot in a running shoe washes up on a Vancouver Beach. This makes 8 of them so far all in running shoes."
Do you happen to know the make and model of the shoe? I am in the market for a new pair of running shoes and want to make a safe and sensible purchase.
Posted by: Dirty Ernie at March 08, 2011 09:33 AM (Q5+Og)
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:34 AM (UK9cE)
Yes, that was a very effective black op that worked wonders.
Until a fucking lefty newspaper (NYT?) blew it wide open in a story.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 09:34 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at March 08, 2011 09:34 AM (YmPwQ)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:35 AM (u4JjU)
Maybe...most of High Times ad revenue probably comes from the DEA.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:35 AM (i8J8M)
the MSM= mum on the mexican youth gangs/cartels...mum on black skreet gangz....but good lord if you mention 'hitler'....
Posted by: str8 outta at March 08, 2011 09:36 AM (Hznyf)
Well of course they did. I mean, what with Jane Fonda over there, they didn't want to chance her getting one of those rounds. Right?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:37 AM (8y9MW)
Just like the old Soldier of Fortune magazine ads for mercenaries and contract killers. And x-ray glasses.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:37 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: str8 outta at March 08, 2011 01:36 PM (Hznyf)
NO no no....You misunderstand. You can mention Hitler all you want because that will only prove that you actually ARE Hitler like they've been saying and are only admitting that you are by saying his name.
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:37 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 09:38 AM (AZGON)
The true hard core old school ones are on the endangered species list here in FL. As a practical matter, the media has replaced them with teabaggers.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:38 AM (i8J8M)
Trust me. Accusing the Admin of deliberately ignoring gun laws, exporting weapons to Mexico, supporting drug violence, being essentially a party to the death of both American and Mexican law enforcement, as part of a political scheme to push a gun ban.....True or no: Likely or no: Barring clear objective evidence, That one is going to scare the straights and cost you some credibility.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 08, 2011 09:38 AM (0q2P7)
Agent Kujan: I'm smarter than you are..
Yeah, it pretty much went downhill from there.
Posted by: Kaiser Soze at March 08, 2011 09:40 AM (u4JjU)
That can be explained by guilt/self hate. The MBM is almost monolithically white. They also think that the only problem with Hitler was his tactics, not his goals. Therefore, whenever something neo-nazi makes news somehow, they have to bash us all with how horrible it is that neo-nazism still exists.
Black/Muslim/Mexican/whatever violence, however, is just explained by their [insert victimhood here].
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:40 AM (8y9MW)
Heh. Like a new and improved receiver made out of a special alloy of iron oxide and aluminum (aka thermite).
Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at March 08, 2011 09:41 AM (IoUF1)
Hey, watch this.
I have a new Obama-Failtm phrase generator.
"The problem isn't that I can't pay my mortgage; it's that you gave me a loan in the first place."
ta-da!
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:43 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 12:44 PM (u4JjU)
No, no, no. You messed it all up. We're supposed to be supposing scenarios, not talking about shit that's already happened.
Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd at March 08, 2011 09:43 AM (eCAn3)
Posted by: I, Obama at March 08, 2011 09:45 AM (mvSlb)
That's awesome.
The problem isn't that there's not enough energy, it's that you use too much.
I see how that works!
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:46 AM (8y9MW)
btw, I don't understand why the Left is so uspset over Obama resuming trials for Gitmo's muslim terrorists.
They're show trials. He'll prosecute the muslim terrorists with the same amount of dedication as his defense of DOMA.
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:46 AM (uFokq)
I keep hoping I'll wake up and it will be May, 2008 again.
Still can't get my mind around the fact that we fought three wars against communism and then let the fucking brain-dead hipsters elected one President.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:46 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: CTD at March 08, 2011 09:47 AM (RurGt)
I thought I remember a guest G Gordon Liddy had on was a Special Forces in Vietnam, where they would sneak in and do some sabotage regarding arty rounds, just a few here and there where they would detonate instantly upon firing, good stuff.
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 09:47 AM (FIDMq)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 01:46 PM (u4JjU)
We need a couple well placed asteroids off of each seaboard to wash away the filth.
Posted by: ErikW at March 08, 2011 09:49 AM (iuRdZ)
Well, there's always the chance of double synchronized brain aneurysms or weird double alien abductions solving our problems now that Pelosi is no longer speaker.
Stranger things have happened....OK...well maybe not.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:50 AM (i8J8M)
Obama as a plumber:
"Yeah, lady, I know I said I could fix your boiler, but you shouldn't have bought such a lousy boiler in the first place."
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:50 AM (uFokq)
Oh, their spin is that it's "unfortunate and spineless" or something like that. I read the article a DKos last night (know thy enemy, and all that). Their problem isn't with Gitmo itself (they say) but that it represents the horror those poor, poor, precious snowflake terrorists innocent muslims endured under the eeeeeeevil George W Bushitler.
So, by their (lack of) logic, it would be okay to have military tribunals if a) they were conducted somewhere other than Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and b) they guaranteed the terrorist inmate's freedom afterword.
At one point, they seriously claimed that we were keeping them despite "no evidence that they would be a threat." - you know, besides the fact they were caught on a field of battle shooting at American warriors.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:50 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: A.G. at March 08, 2011 09:50 AM (oAVyq)
Posted by: Dan at March 08, 2011 09:51 AM (mXBxH)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 09:51 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 08, 2011 09:51 AM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 08, 2011 09:52 AM (F1BaX)
I know I said I could stop Global Warming, but you shouldn't have started it in the first place.
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:52 AM (uFokq)
Anybody who concocts a "strategy" this full of FAIL is way, way beyond "just an idiot."
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:52 AM (8y9MW)
---it still cracks me up. they show the hooded ones dancing in a circle, the cross goes up in flames, people cheering them on!
the skinheads are seen as a horrifying group of burly young men...tatted-up, marching through the streets of 'where-the-hell-is-this-place-town' america, and we're told they pose a serious threat to the security of the country. lolol a 'shoot-out' with the 'nazis' usually consists of three cops, two skinheads, a roasting hog in the shed, a few goats and a headline....wow...i'm like...scared.
a shoot out with an urban street gang? OMGPOLICE BRUTALITY OHGODOHGODOHGOD...THEY USED PEPPER SPRAY TOO!!!
its like one big stupid cartoon.
Posted by: str8 outta at March 08, 2011 09:53 AM (Hznyf)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 08, 2011 09:53 AM (8y9MW)
Nah, the Chinese seem to do a pretty good job on light arms. And an AK47/AKM isn't any more complex than, say, your average Harbor Freight air compressor anyway.
Posted by: JEM at March 08, 2011 09:54 AM (o+SC1)
Obama in Germany in 1945:
I know I said I could save millions of Jews from Hitler, but you shouldn't have climbed into the gas chambers in the first place.
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:55 AM (uFokq)
Questions like: Do you think Kanye's new album deserves the Grammy?
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:56 AM (u4JjU)
btw, I'm using this real quote as inspiration:
"The problem of what to do with Guantanamo detainees was not caused by my decision to close the facility. The problem exists because of the decision to open Guantanamo in the first place."
Posted by: Soothsayer has a problem with Wang Dong at March 08, 2011 09:56 AM (uFokq)
It was a very well planned, well run operation by the CIA. In fact, someone here actually posted about it in the comments a while back. That's where I read about it.
The plan was incredibly detailed from the start. Someone figured out that the powder in the Soviet ammo could be duplicated in terms of appearance, but with 100 times more energy, enough to drive the bolt right back through the operator's face. You could look at the two side by side and would not be able to tell one from the other until you actually fired it.
The plan involved finding caches of weapons and ammo and then substituting only a few rounds at a time, never more than two in a magazine, and only in 1% of the total number of rounds. When the enemy used it, sooner or later, an lucky NVA regular or VC would get an AK-47 bolt blasted through their skull. Any attempt to investigate their ammo cache would turn up nothing because there would only be one or two rounds out of the entire inventory that was "special". Slowly, the enemy began to lose confidence in the quality of the supplied ammunition and would begin to doubt using their weapons for fear of getting killed by them. It actually caused real panic and suspicion in the NVA ranks! Everything was going successfully until it was exposed in a US newspaper about how dirty the US military was.
Oh well...
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 09:56 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: Charlie Sheen at March 08, 2011 09:57 AM (AZGON)
If nothing else the new border will be much shorter and easier to build a giant wall on.
At a minimum we should take Baja California which is rightfully ours anyway. That place would a new Vegas/Disney/vacation wonderland if it wasn't, you know, in Mexico.
Mexico fucking sucks.
Posted by: Clubber Lang at March 08, 2011 09:57 AM (QcFbt)
And the narcos know who the Coyotes working any given area are and probably take a cut of their action. No jihadi is going to try to slip across without a support infrastructure in place.
I'm sure the narcos understand jihadis are bad for business.
The real vulnerability is the Canadian border since there's nothing like the narco's shadow govt working up there keeping tabs on new players in town, and there's thousands of miles of essentially unguarded/unfenced border you can just stroll across at will.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 08, 2011 09:58 AM (i8J8M)
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 09:59 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: RWC at March 08, 2011 09:59 AM (fWAjv)
Posted by: Moxon at March 08, 2011 09:59 AM (Hb5CK)
Meh, I've lost interest.
Posted by: Eric Holder at March 08, 2011 01:55 PM (M7bLp)
As long as shit don't get as bad as 1980's Miami, let the cocaine roll.
Posted by: I, Obama at March 08, 2011 09:59 AM (mvSlb)
Oh well...
Lemmie guess.......the new york times? Wait, was Bush president then? They didn't really care about destroying the American Military until then.
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 09:59 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 10:00 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 08, 2011 10:01 AM (0GFWk)
Then Mr. Lahey and Randy spoiled the whole thing. A shit leopard can't change his stripes, after all.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 10:01 AM (u4JjU)
I want to say yes, but I'm not completely certain it was them. It sure sounds like them though.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 10:02 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 08, 2011 10:02 AM (0GFWk)
Meh, I've lost interest.
Posted by: Eric Holder at March 08, 2011 01:55 PM (M7bLp)
As long as shit don't get as bad as 1980's Miami, let the cocaine roll.
Posted by: I, Obama at March 08, 2011 01:59 PM (mvSlb)
You know I got your back. Until these border states start showing us some respect I don't give a shit what happens on that border. Reap it you tea baggers!
Posted by: Eric Holder at March 08, 2011 10:03 AM (M7bLp)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 08, 2011 02:01 PM (0GFWk)
Good to know. I've only been forced to read that paper a few times and thought it was the most poorly written rag I'd ever had the displeasure of reading. Since then, I've paid it no attention and surely didn't before that.
I'm guessing that means the probably DID run the article and fuck our troops.
Posted by: © Sponge at March 08, 2011 10:03 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 01:56 PM (mAhn3)
I know it was quite a few years ago I heard that, I was under the impression that it was artillery rounds, actual rifle rounds, that is impressive. The MFM strikes again.
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 10:05 AM (FIDMq)
Posted by: nickless at March 08, 2011 10:07 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: dad29 at March 08, 2011 10:07 AM (uwLTU)
Posted by: Clubber Lang at March 08, 2011 01:57 PM (QcFbt)
Ah, work up a Number 6 on 'em then. Marvelous!!
Posted by: Taggart at March 08, 2011 10:07 AM (XBM1t)
It was actual rifle rounds. I don't know if they did it to mortar or artillery rounds, but the story went into detail about how the cartridge power from a Soviet 7.62x39 round could be replicated with the special ++++++++P++++++++ blend and made to look identical in every way, until fired. It was fucking genius in every which way.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 10:08 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 10:08 AM (AZGON)
Are we having the same nightmares? Yeesh!
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 08, 2011 10:09 AM (9hSKh)
If it made America safer, the NYT was against it and was willing to lie or divulge Top Secret information to kill it.
In a just world, Pinch would have been tried and hanged for treason long ago.
Posted by: sifty at March 08, 2011 10:09 AM (u4JjU)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 08, 2011 10:09 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 02:08 PM (mAhn3)
Was that in a book?, not sure if the guy on there wrote a book or not, my guess is yes. But too long ago to remember anything
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 10:12 AM (FIDMq)
Posted by: tarpon at March 08, 2011 10:12 AM (g0QB8)
Posted by: A.G. at March 08, 2011 10:12 AM (oAVyq)
To deal with this problem, I need fresh arugula, a pack of Kools, and 3 new Titleist PRO V1's
Posted by: President Jugears McFuckstick at March 08, 2011 10:13 AM (cUNcx)
Quick read on Project Eldest Son
Some 82mm rounds were 'modified' too. Diabolical but so full of win.
http://tinyurl.com/23s3ak2
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 10:17 AM (FIDMq)
Posted by: Dirty Ernie at March 08, 2011 01:13 PM (Q5+Og)
That was never true. Think about it - suspect someone is an undercover agent? No prob - just ask!
There would be no point in having undercover cops.
OTOH, once a suspect is in custody an undercover agent cannot be sent in, say, as a "cellmate" to collect info.
Posted by: sock puppeh at March 08, 2011 10:17 AM (VcPAo)
exactly. though I would think it would be far easier and better economically if we could develop a good joint-policy on immigration (etc) with Canada.
Posted by: A.G. at March 08, 2011 02:12 PM (oAVyq)
Will never happen. They are all too willing to let the jihadis in up here, I'm afraid.
In fact, the government waives all of their fees, in many cases. They get to come here for free, live on the dole, and then plot to blow up Parliament, but Canada doubles down.
Yeah!
Posted by: grognard at March 08, 2011 10:17 AM (NS2Mo)
No, I actually all about that right here at Moron HQ, in the comments of a post. Somehow, the convo turned to awesome black ops the US used to do in the past.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 10:17 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 02:17 PM (mAhn3)
Hmm...which thread was that, Id love to read it.
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 10:18 AM (FIDMq)
So what?
Make up any grand scheme you want, nefarious plot foiled and tell me: Was it worth the very real, very dead Americans and Mexicans? And why is it that this hare-brained idea was the best way to accomplish the unknown greater good?
Posted by: jimmuy at March 08, 2011 10:19 AM (3izQj)
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 08, 2011 10:19 AM (FIDMq)
Word for the Day: Disarticulated FTW!
Posted by: JT2 at March 08, 2011 10:24 AM (iXLkL)
I'd love to find it again, but it was lost in time
......like tears
.......in rain
.......time to die.
Posted by: EC at March 08, 2011 10:24 AM (mAhn3)
Posted by: nickless at March 08, 2011 02:07 PM (MMC8r)
There's a new product on the shelves here in CA...95 watt incandescent bulbs!
I love the free market!
Posted by: sock puppeh at March 08, 2011 10:24 AM (VcPAo)
Posted by: kidney at March 08, 2011 10:26 AM (3j6OS)
Posted by: Financejoe at March 08, 2011 10:27 AM (viKAs)
I don't care what the excuse is, this is a fuc#$up of EPIC proportion.
Senior BATFE dicks need to be on the chopping block here, and frankly more than one of them.
Posted by: looking closely at March 08, 2011 10:31 AM (6Q9g2)
Posted by: Wm T Sherman at March 08, 2011 10:46 AM (w41GQ)
Posted by: looking closely at March 08, 2011 02:31 PM (6Q9g2)
Amen. This sort is not like regular police. So far as I can tell, these people are the sort who'll be the first to serve as jackbooted thugs for totalitarians. Any time we can cut their careers short it's probably for the better.
These pukes bitch and moan about the need to make sure nobody can buy a gun, no matter how law abiding, and then they willfully facilitate massive purchases by known criminals. It tends to reinforce the conspiracy theory that says the police are in on the drug trade.
Posted by: Reactionary at March 08, 2011 10:47 AM (xUM1Q)
Probably just because its an available source for them.
It may be easier, cheaper, or less risky for the particular drug gangs in question to smuggle stuff across the US border than other borders they don't have control over .
On full auto, drug gangs don't necessarily need fully automatic guns. But if they did, its not a terribly hard conversion if you have the right (and rather inexpensive) parts. It involves a few modifications to the internals and full-auto fire control parts, which only cost a few bucks. Someone who knows what they are doing and has the parts can probably do the conversion in under 15 minutes.
Posted by: looking closely at March 08, 2011 10:51 AM (6Q9g2)
Posted by: andycanuck at March 08, 2011 11:22 AM (7H/n0)
I don't understand the goal or strategy here. US agents can't make arrests in Mexico and our border agents appararantly can't even use live ammunition to defend themselves. This doesn't add up, stinks to high heaven.
It's morally and ethically wrong. The completely forseeable and likely consequences are lethal and criminal. It's wrong strategically, tactically, politically, legally.
I read elsewhere that this operation would have to have hjad direct DOJ involvement and also probably was done with WH/Obama knowledge (sorry, have read several articles over the past few days, not sure where/link).
Please, please, please tell me this will bring down Eric Holder at a minimum. It's hard to construct any plausible reason for this operation.
Hope the ATF whistleblowers and their families are kept safe.
Posted by: Mayday at March 08, 2011 11:45 AM (TRgli)
"The problem of what to do with Guantanamo detainees was not caused by my decision to close the facility. The problem exists because of the decision to open Guantanamo in the first place."
And here I thought the problem of the Gitmo detainess was caused by them crashing four jetliners into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon killing over 3,000 Americans, and continued attempts to murder us. Good to know opening Gitmo caused the problem.
Posted by: Mayday at March 08, 2011 11:56 AM (TRgli)
Posted by: Jack at March 08, 2011 11:58 AM (kCT7A)
Posted by: JS at March 08, 2011 12:20 PM (NB4vc)
Posted by: Rightwingdeathbeast at March 08, 2011 12:43 PM (p+PFA)
No matter where you look, absolutely nothing with these marxist one worlders is as it should be. Issa and his committee should be in the news 24/7. Unfortunately he and Grassley are a couple of weak willed wimps.
I'd bet on this being part of the long game to the UN gun ban.
Posted by: ontherocks at March 08, 2011 01:00 PM (HBqDo)
Posted by: Socratease at March 08, 2011 01:01 PM (vaIln)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at March 08, 2011 01:09 PM (/EiLQ)
The ATF has been stomping all over decent people for years, the leash needs to be yanked and yanked hard.
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at March 08, 2011 01:18 PM (bxiXv)
if you want to show that we need stricter gun control becuase illegal guns in mexico came from the United States, you need to be able to point to guns as an example.
this is and was all politically motivated from leftists now running our government.
they are leftists, the ends always justify the means becuase this is thier religion. so in the furtherance of thier religion, or a section of it (gun control) they were creating the evidence on the ground.
Posted by: rumcrook at March 08, 2011 02:07 PM (60WiD)
perfect storm of liberal malfeasance and stupidity.
Posted by: rumcrook at March 08, 2011 02:09 PM (60WiD)
Posted by: not the droid you seek at March 08, 2011 02:26 PM (h35AH)
Posted by: Buck O. Phive at March 08, 2011 02:37 PM (HwIdb)
Mike Vanderboughs' Sipsey Streey Irregulars is a great Blog for the latest action, but his counterpart in all this, Gun Writer David Codrea, has this whole deal wrapped up in a "Journalists Guide" right here.
Most of the debate and questions being asked here have been addressed in the links above over the last few months as this story slowly unfolded.
And KUDOS to the brave whistleblowers who are now being shunned for doing the right thing.
Posted by: TXMarko at March 08, 2011 02:53 PM (8F3/C)
Posted by: TXMarko at March 08, 2011 02:56 PM (8F3/C)
Posted by: Mitch Rapp at March 08, 2011 04:04 PM (p/VzK)
Posted by: Mitch Rapp at March 08, 2011 04:05 PM (p/VzK)
Posted by: Spurwing Plover at March 08, 2011 06:27 PM (vA9ld)
Ace, you're slipping. This story is now almost two weeks old. CBS just did part three of their on-going story.
http://tinyurl.com/4w5xyxa
Posted by: thebronze at March 08, 2011 06:39 PM (OL7iQ)
Posted by: ron n. at March 08, 2011 07:09 PM (QiNK/)
Posted by: yakima canutt, in below the sexy shoes at March 08, 2011 08:25 PM (tXbf1)
Let Mexico pass its own strict gun laws. They are the politically approved answer, and the problem is there, not here. Oh, and a law requiring criminals to obey the law is sorely lacking on both sides of the border.
Posted by: MarkD at March 09, 2011 03:39 AM (6CLxP)
How does the ATF plan to bust a fully armed drug cartel, praytell?
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at March 09, 2011 09:12 AM (9eDbm)
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Posted by: frito bandito at March 08, 2011 08:39 AM (7H/n0)