1 You are preaching to the choir.

2 The public employee unions are just the tip of the iceberg.

3 The latest tactic seems to be to simply lie about their compensation and say they actually make less than half that. Saw that on a thread here perhaps yesterday.

4 Somebody should suggest that the voting public be allowed a "retain" option on ballots for teachers, like we currently have for judges after a (say) 4 year term.

THAT would get their attention in a hurry.

5 And this is for working 9 months out of the year.

6 That's the average? Now think where that would put the teachers near retirement. I wonder if they get the deal where they receive benefits and some significant fraction of their final salary as retirement compensation.

7 I wish they would clean up after themselves too.

8 which is why we need to privatize the whole venture of ALL schools, cut the department of education from the federal government, save money by paying vouchers to charter schools...period.

9 I'd like to propose something that skirts around the entire union-busting/collective bargaining issue ... but fundamentally reins this crap in.

Fundamentally prohibit shifting the "payment" portion off into the future. That is, you're fundamentally shifting to a IRA-like or annuity-based benefits package as opposed to a "pension plan".

You can still call an annuity a "pension plan" - it still has guaranteed outputs etc. But the money has basically already changed hands and is on a set path.

This should be government-wide at all freaking levels.

10

Ah yes the beautiful Union People...Fricken Maggot Infested Pigs! And the Tea party people are ????

Madison - State officials said Thursday that damage to the marble inside and out the State Capitol would cost an estimated $7.5 million. Cari Anne Renlund, chief legal counsel for the state Department of Administration, said in Dane County court that estimates of damage to marble includes $6 million to repair damaged marble inside the Capitol, $1 million for damage outside and $500,000 for costs to supervise the damage. Much of the damage apparently has come from tape used to put up signs and placards at the Capitol. It was not immediately clear how the estimates were made, though the state is apparently relying on opinions by historical architects, one of whom works for the U.S. Park Service. One concern is the residue from tape that the state says is causing damage to stone and other surfaces inside the Capitol. Michele Curran, an architectural historian for the National Parks Service who coordinates national historic landmarks in Wisconsin, said she didn’t know how the state had arrived at its damage figures. She said certain kinds of tape can leave lasting residues on surfaces such as marble or wood if they are improperly removed. But she said only a professional cleaning service experienced in such work and familiar with the situation in the state Capitol could estimate any possible costs. “They need a quote from a company that specializes in cleaning historic surfaces,” Curran said. Many of the papers and banners posted in the state Capitol were put up using painter’s tape, which is employed to minimize effects on walls.

11

It also needs to be remembered that teaching is a part-time job.  Most don't work 40 hours a week when school is in session, and it's out of session for 3 months plus long holiday breaks.

The monthly pay for a $100,000 teacher is the same as someone who works 12 months a year making a $133,000 salary.

 

12

That's more than $30,000 than I make a year as a detective in a big-city police department.  And that's including my OT. 

But hey, these teachers deserve it.  It's for the children.

13 Thats about 135K annualized. We have reached the tipping point. Massive reform is on its way and the states will lead Washington.

14 There should be no Public schools. Give parents an $8K deduction per child for schooling through 12th grade and let the market sort it out.

15

...In business, if an agent of the business makes a deal which is bad for those he represents but benefits him personally via an under-the-table payment, we call this a kickback, and it's a crime of corruption.

In politics, though, it's not just legal but increasingly crucial to the Democrat Party's survival.

Excellent...short and to the point. Will forward to this the folks I know who can't seem to wrap their heads around the crux of this issue.

 

16 GIMME GIMME GIMME!!!

17 You're all  bastards!

18 Let's not forget they can retire at 55 and start collecting a pension of 60% of their pay with full health benefits.

19 Yet another example of problems that are, at the root, due to Government providing a mechanism to hid the costs from the consumer - denying the Invisible Hand someone to slap.  Some others:

- Health Insurance (double secret hidden because your employer pays the insurance and the insurance pays the doctor)
- Withholding disguising the pain of taxes
- Student Loan, driving up the cost of education and biasing it from courses of study that have market value

Simple solutions - make health insurance a deduction for individuals, as it is for corporations; get rid of withholding, make taxes due Oct 30th; no student loans for general study - tie the value and cost of the loans to the value of the degree; etc

20 State officials said Thursday that damage to the marble inside and out the State Capitol would cost an estimated $7.5 million.

That's bogus.  That rate only applies if they hire union labor.

21 Milwaukee salary is not all of Wisconsin. That said, fuck'em all.

22

Fuck teaching!

I'm going into the tape residue removal business.

23 Come on WI, just separate the collective bargaining out already and be done with it.  I'm tired of seeing these parasites in the news.

On the other hand, actual picketing is probably the hardest they have worked for years.

24 >>>Fundamentally prohibit shifting the "payment" portion off into the future. That is, you're fundamentally shifting to a IRA-like or annuity-based benefits package as opposed to a "pension plan". absolutely a necessary reform. The reason that future compensation is so popular is that while Democrats want to pay government workers gold-plated salaries, they have trouble explaining to people why their taxes must rise to do so. So they always punish future taxpayers. Future taxpayers, being in the future, can't vote in current elections.

25 Send the Bill to the Union, Obama, and/or cut the teachers pay by that amount and spread it around equally... WI OFFICIALS: Statehouse suffered $7.5 million in damages during protests...

26 If SS is such a wonderful system, and not in any fiscal danger whatsoever (per the Dems), then why do public sector employees need separate retirement pensions?
 
The pension scheme has been all but eliminated in almost all private sector markets, excepting unionized companies like GM.
 
Let them do 401Ks + SS. I'd even be okay with adding some matching contributions to 401Ks, under the same sort of rules private companies use. Yeah, even that would get abused but at least the costs are a straightforward calculation.
 

27 "Destroying The Middle-Class" That's a great Republican campaign slogan. It could work!

28 Oh, and those pensions are based on an average of their "High 5", the highest 5 years of salary they received during their career.

29 When will Randall come back to put us some fuckin' knowledge?

30 Funny how public schools aren't mentioned in the Constitution but they're the holy grail to the libs.  The two statements aren't unrelated.

31 You can still call an annuity a "pension plan" - it still has guaranteed outputs etc. But the money has basically already changed hands and is on a set path.

This should be government-wide at all freaking levels.
Posted by: Al

Defined benefit plan vs. Defined contribution; these are the two big branches of retirement plans.

Traditional 'pension' plans were defined benefit plans. That is the payouts were guaranteed at a certain level determined by the respective government or government sponsored retirement fund.

Defined contribution is what most of us know; ie we pay in a specified amount but receive only what we have paid in plus or minus investment returns.

Defined benefit plans are untenable. They cannot be maintained and this is the reason for the gaping holes in these public sector retirement funds. All public sector pensions need to be converted to defined contribution plans with graduated conversion rates.

32

I'm going into the tape residue removal business.

Yeh, I've got a great product you can buy. I call it Agua. It's expensive, but I'll cut ya a break.

33

That's more than $30,000 than I make a year as a detective in a big-city police department.  And that's including my OT. 

But hey, these teachers deserve it.  It's for the children.

They can't supplement their income by raiding the evidence storage locker like you can.

34 That's more than $30,000 than I make a year as a detective in a big-city police department.  And that's including my OT.  That's why we encourage you to supplement your income from the evidence Bonus Room.

35 41K in bennies? A platinum guilded health care plan that will be tax exempt from O-Care? Guaranteed pensions that will allow them to live out their 50's/60's/and70's in luxury? And, 60K a year on top of that? And they get summers off? Wow. Just Wow.

36 On that tape causing millions in damage to the marble, I call double stacked with a cherry on top bullshit. It's ROCK for crisske. Get some cheese cloth and a can Zylene and some rubber gloves.

37 How much does the President make? 200k? How about we have a rule that no one  in government can make more the the Chief Executive of the USA

38 Empire of Jeff. You owe me a coke.

39 If the teachers were turning out a world class product, I'd have some sympathy. They aren't. And I don't. Put retired police, fire, doctors, lawyers, etc. in the classrooms instead.

40 So they always punish future taxpayers. Future taxpayers, being in the future, can't vote in current elections. We're working on recruiting Democrats from the future.

41 Wht did the state of Wisconsin name the capital city Madison? Why Oscar Madison from the odd couple? Why not a famous American from the revolution or our founding fathers...Like George Jefferson or George Hamilton ??

42 28 Oh, and those pensions are based on an average of their "High 5", the highest 5 years of salary they received during their career.

Posted by: Rocks at March 04, 2011 02:09 PM (Q1lie)

Id take that anyday vs the overtime scam the other public sector stooges get.

43 Crap, Xylene not Zylene.

44 Nice, Ben!

45 OT:
The Florida Supreme Court has ruled that Governor Rick Scott can reject high-speed rail funds from the federal government.

46 Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest? What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

47 Posted by: maddogg at March 04, 2011 02:11 PM (OlN4e)

Marble is a very permeable rock. It stains extremely easily.

48

What does high speed rail have in common with Charlie Sheen?

(I am sick to death of both stupidities)

49 41K in bennies? A platinum guilded health care plan that will be tax exempt from O-Care? Guaranteed pensions that will allow them to live out their 50's/60's/and70's in luxury? And, 60K a year on top of that? And they get summers off? Wow. Just Wow.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 04, 2011 02:11 PM (0q2P7)

You think that's great you should see what an administrator gets. Most of these people have salaries in excess of 100K. They are retiring at 55 and receiving a pension over 100K a year. They just move to another town and state and start again. I've heard of some who got another 20 years in somewhere else and are receiving 2 full pensions total in excess of 150K.

50 37 How much does the President make? 200k? How about we have a rule that no one  in government can make more the the Chief Executive of the USA

Posted by: Ben at March 04, 2011 02:12 PM (wuv1c)

Only if you make the potus performance based

51 The Democrat Party launders tax payer money for their campaign contributions and GOTV efforts through organizations like ACORN and the regulations that enrich the trial lawyers.

52 >>What does high speed rail have in common with Charlie Sheen? They are both winning!! Duh.

53

What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

Yes.   Garbage men do a difficult job that few are willing to do.  Like everyone else, they do it 12 months a year.   

Teacher's don't.  They are overpaid. 

 More importantly, they are over-valued.

54 Let's not forget they can retire at 55 and start collecting a pension of 60% of their pay with full health benefits.

Posted by: Rocks at March 04, 2011 02:06 PM (Q1lie)

And can go ahead and get another job teaching without issue.

to be fair i'm sure they have to report the pension payments as income just as private sector workers earning pensions do.

55 46 Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest? What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

Posted by: lewis at March 04, 2011 02:13 PM (i/Leq)

Your premise is faulty.  Evidently you have not seen any of the WI protest videos.

56 And can go ahead and get another an actual first-time job teaching without issue.

57

Wisconsin teachers: A stain on the marble of education.

58 In business, if an agent of the business makes a deal which is bad for those he represents but benefits him personally via an under-the-table payment, we call this a kickback, and it's a crime of corruption.

So, could union campaign donations be banned under existing elections laws?

Alternately, can taxpayers sue if they don't like the contract that the unions and their politicians come up with?

59

Id take that anyday vs the overtime scam the other public sector stooges get.

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 04, 2011 02:12 PM (FIDMq)

That's just it. Their high 5 is for total compensation in a year. That's why it's the high 5. It counts OT.

60

I don't want to demonize teachers- they provide a necessary service.

However, this "we need gold-plated pension benefits for the children" bullshit needs to be shot down hard.

Let's face it- it doesn't require a masters degree from MIT and a genius level IQ to teach K-12.  If you graduated high school with good grades, you pretty much have the required knowledge.

61 My mom worked as a private school teacher for 20 years before moving to the public school system. She was required to join the union and is constantly amazed at how fucking lazy and backstabbing they all are. But the salary and bennies were a HUGE jump for her. In the private school, if you want to keep your job, you run the yearbook if they tell you to. In the public system, "Fuck you, not in my contract." And public school teachers don't TEACH classes all day. Half the time is "prep periods." And they have fucking assistants in their classes! It's not even a full time job for the nine months they "work."

62 fucking sock.

63 I don't know about the other districts, but I do know that Shorewood was one of the boards who rushed to negotiate a bad deal for their taxpayers before Walker's legislation could be passed.

64 Here's another feel good union story for you.  

If you have a Teamster working for you, you submit his fringe benefits on his behalf monthly.  This includes a payment to the pension fund ranging from $2.00 an hour to $8.00 an hour depending on where you are located.  At that point, the cash is completely out of your hands and the IBT invests it in whatever manner they wish.  For all I know, they go down to the Bellagio every month and take the entire amount and bet on black.

Apparently, the IBT has figured out the ponzi scheme that is their pension fund is way under funded. Is this their fault?  No, of course not!  How could you even ask?  They have now come back to the signatory Companies, many who have been contributing to the Pension fund for decades, told them that they didn't pay enough and now they need to cough up more to keep the Pension program funded.  The more that you've paid in over the years, the more you owe now as you are responsible for a higher percentage of the negative balance than someone who has paid in less than you.

I think they've been taking lessons from the Social Security program.

I don't know where all this stands right now.  I think there are some appeals processes to go through yet, but what a deal, huh?  Do you feel the love?

65

Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest? What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

At least if a Garbage man gets caught having sex with my rubbish he'll get fired. The same can't be said about teachers and students.

66 On the other hand, actual picketing is probably the hardest they have worked for years.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 04, 2011 02:07 PM (qqrPQ)

You must've missed that pix of "Rotunda."

67 What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

Why don't we let the market set their salaries? No unions, no tenure, etc.

Good teachers will be paid well, poor teachers will not.

68 How can you win the future without high speed rail and the best teachers in all the land? Silly wing nutz leave public policy to those with a vested interest in our future, not just the future of rich rethuglican oil barons.

69 It's not just the bloated salaries....the union's themselves have millions of dollars left over to throw right back to the fucking Democrats...tax money...right back to the people that enable these fuckers.....

70

That is about twice what my dad makes as a private-school teacher now, and he has over thirty years experience, almost twenty-nine of that at a single school. He raised six children on his salary, too.

Playing the Devil's advocate here: Couldn't one argue that private businesses just pass the increased cost of wages on to their customers? Of course, they have more of an incentive to keep costs down than do governments, since they can't just borrow money the way governments think they can, but how are increased wages different from corporate taxes, which we usually say are just passed on to the consumer?

71 Re my #66

This is, by the way, billions of dollars of underfunded pension program.

72 Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest?  Posted by: lewis

Well, troll, the answer is beyond simple; competition. If parents were able to direct vouchers to schools and teachers, then  teachers would be rewarded at higher levels of compensation.

Oh, that's right, you're a commie and you don't believe in competition. Never the less, you still owe me $50 for my lesson.

73

At least if a Garbage man gets caught having sex with my rubbish he'll get fired. The same can't be said about teachers and students.

Posted by: Ben at March 04, 2011 02:18 PM (wuv1c)

Ok, there goes one career choice, but teaching...hmmm...

74 There is always the cry that teachers have to buy "supplies" for their students out of their own pockets.

That is another lie spewed forth by these turds. Here in my country the parents are expected to buy supplies. Not only that, but since some "parents" can't afford supplies and they are not on the food stamp list of allowable products, all the supplies that other parents buy are pooled into a common hoard and shared.

Sound familiar.

Oh when those run out, the parents buying are responsible for buying more.

75 We have been living through a smash-and-grab robbery of the working people for the last 20 years.  It's just accelerated during the last four.

76 Posted by: lewis at March 04, 2011 02:20 PM (i/Leq)

Ok whose sock is this?

77 For nine months a year of work, and a 3 months full of summer "prep work" *wink wink*.

78 In the school district we pay taxes to fund, less than 1,000 total K-12, school board members are elected, but if one resigns mid-term, the others just bring in one of their friends.

Membership on the school board, IMHO, is more about power, status, and social contacts, than about any ability.  Conflicts of interest abound, with some board member's spouses being either teachers or other kinds of school workers.

School board meetings are not recorded, nor are minutes taken and then published for the public to view.  If a meeting will have a topic such as a sports coach, the room will be jammed with parents.  If it is just to discuss mundane other stuff like academics and money, attendance goes way down.

While the board is supposed to advise the superintendent, the super runs the show, and the board members always vote per his recommendations.

Problem teachers are not fired, but instead, are not given any assignment to teach or otherwise work.  One of these has gone to the school each day for a couple years, to sleep in the break room all day.

In an interesting incident, plans were made for a handicapped child who was thought to be moving into the district, and a "teacher's aide," a full-time job, was created and filled to deal with the student.  The child never entered the school district, but the aide, with nothing to do, has been on the payroll ever since.

No board member will ever speak up about anything, because it would be considered bad social form to not make nicey-nice. 

Teachers get step-raises yearly.  Their defined-benefit pensions are not subject to state income tax.

Really sucks, right?

79 How can you win the future without high speed rail and the best teachers in all the land? Silly wing nutz leave public policy to those with a vested interest in our future, not just the future of rich rethuglican oil barons.

Posted by: lewis at March 04, 2011 02:20 PM (i/Leq)

So the union government teachers will drive the high speed trains off of the bridges?

I guess that will be efficient.

80

“They need a quote from a company that specializes in cleaning historic surfaces,”

This is where big gov gets into big trouble and why we're screwed; company that specializes is code language for I'm gonna hire my cousin Vinny to stick it up the tax payers corn hole. Get the friggin building janitor down there with a handful of solvents from home friggin depot and figure out which one best does the job and call it a day. Or simply leave it as a reminder to the people that this is what fat cat-spoiled union punks do when they don't get their way.

Done and DONE!!

Hmmm, ya think maybe someone can figure hot to gagggle "how to clean marble"

81 O/T

The headline in the sidebar about Helen Thomas has a bad link. Here it is:

When all you have is an oven, everything looks like a Jew.

82 There is some delicious schadenboner news though; many of the blue, recently former blue, and purplish states are the ones with the biggest problems. So their governments are having to be the most aggressive ones in tackling this issue.
 
Dems hate children worst!

83 Im a little out of the loop regarding pensions, arent they based on an average percentage of salary?  no bennies or that type of stuff is included in that calculation right? 

84

Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest? What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

The "best and brightest" should be doing a job that demands being bright or the best.  Teaching is a part-time job that doesn't demand a particularly high level of knowledge or education.

85 >>Playing the Devil's advocate here: Couldn't one argue that private businesses just pass the increased cost of wages on to their customers? Of course, they have more of an incentive to keep costs down than do governments, since they can't just borrow money the way governments think they can, but how are increased wages different from corporate taxes, which we usually say are just passed on to the consumer? You don't have to argue it, that's exactly what happens. But there is an active feedback system in the market, if your costs are too high sales go down. In the public space costs are just passed on to taxpayers until they reach a breaking point. See Wisconsin.

86

Playing the Devil's advocate here: Couldn't one argue that private businesses just pass the increased cost of wages on to their customers? Of course, they have more of an incentive to keep costs down than do governments, since they can't just borrow money the way governments think they can, but how are increased wages different from corporate taxes, which we usually say are just passed on to the consumer?

 

Yes they do, but private businesses keep costs at a minimum so they don't have to raise prices. Public Unions and Elected Officials have no such incentive. They have a captive customer base. I can choose to stop buying a product if the price increase, however I can't avoid paying taxes

87 86

You generally have a pay rate and a benefits package.  The benefits package is health care, pension, and miscellaneous funds like PAC's and such.  The bulk is typically health care and pension.  Both are usually a flat hourly rate, but can be a percentage of payroll.  It depends on the agreement.

88 In regards to post #10, the cost of the cleanup. "$500,000 for costs to supervise the damage'. What job is that? Watching people DO the damage? That's the gig I want.

89 Shut it!  You'll blow my bennies!

90 Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest? What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

How does being able to get away with doing a shitty job, year after year, without being fired translate into 'Best and Brightest'?

Why don't we let the market set their salaries? No unions, no tenure, etc.
Good teachers will be paid well, poor teachers will not.

Posted by: 18-1 at March 04, 2011 02:19 PM (7BU4a)

Competition is like kryptonite to a liberal.  Life isn't fair.  When you go through life with the belief that you deserve everything  simply because you're breathing, the idea that some people are better, work harder and maybe earn their way is just crazy talk.

91 Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest? Abolish the unions. Hire retired private sector workers. Imagine what might happen. "Mommy, daddy, my new math teacher used to be a nurse. She said that in her old job if you don't know your math, you might kill somebody with too much medicine. She said I really need to do my homework."

92

What job is that? Watching people DO the damage? That's the gig I want.

 

We have plenty of those jobs in my business!

93 Only $100,000?  Strike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Why does governor Scott Mubarakhitler hate working families??????

But remember, people who make over $200,000 have too much money and need to be taxed out of existence.

94 37
How much does the President make? 200k? How about we have a rule that no one  in government can make more the the Chief Executive of the USA
Posted by: Ben at March 04, 2011 02:12 PM (wuv1c)

I think it's now $400K.

95 K-12 public education is a jobs program for adults, not a system for educating children. That pretty much says it all. Kill it, burn the corpse, and bury it in an unmarked grave. Sow the ground with salt and post guards so the unquiet spirit can never go roaming again.

96 Al says --

Fundamentally prohibit shifting the "payment" portion off into the future.

Al is dead on.  I would think that a state constitutional amendment could be worded to say, in essence, that any guarantee, government insurance, promise of future payment, or the like which can be monetized MUST be monetized.  Thus, if the government wants to promise a pension, and this can be done by purchasing an annuity or similar product, the government MUST purchase that product with money in its current budget, or purchase it now and float a bond to pay for it.  Even at the federal level, this would work - try substituting private bank deposit insurance for FDIC insurance, with the government (or the banks, actually) paying the premiums up front.  No more guesses about the government's (i.e., the taxpayers') future liability; just a fee to be paid.  If it is worth providing, it is worth monetizing.  No more of this "I'd gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today" crap.

97

It's dangerous in the heat of the Wisconsin foolishness to generalize that experience to all teachers. My daughter works for a school district in Idaho. She has a Master's Degree and 9 years experience in Special Ed (and that's a tough job in anyone's book). She makes someplace in the mid $40m. Her union called for a walkout last week while the legislature is in session and was pulled up short when the teachers rebelled. They thought it to be unprofessional.

Also, this deal about only working 9 months of the year and drawing pay for 12. She goes to work at seven and is seldom out of there before six in the evening-----and that's not unusual for teachers. And it goes on year after year.

Wisconsin has surfaced some serious problems but to tar all teachers, all school systems, and all states with the same brush is...is...is, well, it's almost liberal in it's sweep.

98 Im a little out of the loop regarding pensions, arent they based on an average percentage of salary?  no bennies or that type of stuff is included in that calculation right? 

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 04, 2011 02:24 PM (FIDMq)

No, in most places they are based on your last years salary including accumulated sick days, overtime and vacation pay. Someone who had an average salary of $60,000 can save up their vakay and sick days then work overtime their last year and end up with a pension being more than their salary ever was.

99 Captain hate that was me. Not my best effort I know but what kinda fucking psychopath can defend someone that works 9 months out of the year in a job a lot of people do for nothing, ie homeschooling, that makes over 100k a year. I'm glad I can't figure that one out to be honest.

100 Still, $61k will buy you a lot of brat's in Milwaukee

101

Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest?

 

Agreed.  And since we want the best and the brightest in every occupation, let's just open the floodgates and give every worker in America $1 million a year.

102 What I have never understood is why you need or have someone with a Masters teaching 3rd grade math.

103 Can we abolish teacher lounges while we are at it? Work! In the classroom!

104 But she said only a professional cleaning service experienced in such work and familiar with the situation in the state Capitol could estimate any possible costs.

And they are probably contractually bound to only hire fucking union services, hence the 7 million dollar price tag for tape removal. Your first clue was the half-million dollar quote for supervision.

105 99 K-12 public education is a jobs program for adults, not a system for educating children. That pretty much says it all. Kill it, burn the corpse, and bury it in an unmarked grave. Sow the ground with salt and post guards so the unquiet spirit can never go roaming again.

Posted by: Monty at March 04, 2011 02:29 PM (4Pleu)

I guess being from a smaller area, I dont see it, the schools around here do a pretty good job.  I have no complaints especially seeing what other areas(Wis, NJ,NY) have to deal with.

106 105 What I have never understood is why you need or have someone with a Masters teaching 3rd grade math.           It's the only way the kids will believe my budget!

107 Well done, Mr Pink; the trashmen are unionized too iirc, but at least I get a direct benefit from what they do.

108

As a small business owner, I would argue that management does not want to keep the employee wages as low as possible.  I would love, love, love to see my employees making huge amounts, especially commisioned sales people.

I just have to make sure that what I pay can be justified based on the benefit the employee brings to the company.

I am more than happy to pay someone 100K a year of they are bringing in more than 100K in benefit.  I will not pay someone 20K if they are bringing in less than 20K in benefit.

109 106 Can we abolish teacher lounges while we are at it? Work! In the classroom!             But where will they enjoy their smoke/drink/coke breaks?

110 But it's for the votes children!

111

Hey all!  Just dropping by to see if anyone had heard the story Rush was just telling about how live ammo was found at the Wisconsin capitol building.  That's news to me!  All the news items I can find are dated yesterday (3/3), so I know it may have already been discussed here and I just missed it. *sad face*

Here's a link to the story at Gateway Pundit:

Live Ammunition Found Outside Wisconsin Capitol Building

112 $60,000 can save up their vakay and sick days then work overtime their last year and end up with a pension being more than their salary ever was.

Posted by: robtr at March 04, 2011 02:30 PM (MtwBb)

There arent any teachers that get OT....right?(if there are we are boned)

113 I have more respect for trashmen to be honest. At least you know they put in a hard day at work. Cept when the fuckers leave trashcans or those recycling things halfway in the road. I hate that.

114 As the official spokes entity for the great and magnificant Barry Obama I am proud to say that it is Bush's fault. Thank you and no further questions at this time.

115 Story about the Senator from Wis. having trouble paying for staying in ill. states that they make 49,000 dollars. So Milwaukee teachers make more than twice what a Wis. state senator?

116

There arent any teachers that get OT....right?(if there are we are boned)

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 04, 2011 02:36 PM (FIDMq)

Sure there are, they teach summer school their last year.

117 My 118 refers only to senators salary not benefits, but the salary is still almost 25% higher.

118 Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest? What would you wingnutz rather pay these public servants less tha garbage men?

OK. Let's analyze that statement.
1. Unions only reward seniority, not performance, not experience, not dedication.

This acts as a bar for the "best and the brightest" because they are the best and brightest not because they like being in the rank and file with everyone else. But because they are driven to produce results and be rewarded for it. They don't want to be a rank and file.

It also acts as a bar for any experienced persons, say a journalist, or an engineer from entering teaching bringing real world experience, because despite their prowess and additional practical experience in fields using subject matter they must start out at the bottom.

It also acts as a bar for technical minded people. Who are always in greater demand than socially minded folks. In the private world their is a wage difference based on the rarity of your skills. If you have developed difficult and rare sought after skills you are payed more. Not so for education, a teacher who can teach Calculus gets payed the same as a teacher teaching history.

All of this is driven by: The Union.

Now if you think their overall salary is too big here is a comparison of major first world countries. Where are US teachers? That's right, more than anyone else. 

U.S. average salary     PPP $ 4,055     $ 4,055
UK median salary     PPP $ 3,075     $ 3,568
Germany average salary     PPP $ 3,065     $ 3,309
Australia average      PPP $ 2,793     $ 2,742
France median salary     PPP $ 2,483     $ 1,950
Canada average income     PPP $ 2,238     $ 2,236


I wouldn't mind paying for top talent at the HS levels but, the first thing that would have to go is the union. Make the teachers differentially payed based on skill rarity, performance, real world experience, and academic qualification, just like the real world. And eliminate tenure and then so long as we can turn out better than the pathetic results we currently get for one of the most expensive systems in the world, then, maybe I could get behind paying the top tier more.

But as I see it, we should be ranked #1 right now based on pay, and expenses payed to educate. I wonder what keeps holding us back? *coughUNIONScough*

119 Story about the Senator from Wis. having trouble paying for staying in ill. states that they make 49,000 dollars. So Milwaukee teachers make more than twice what a Wis. state senator?

Posted by: Have Blue at March 04, 2011 02:37 PM (mV+es)

They are only in session 4 or 5 months a years.

120 Posted by: Dennis at March 04, 2011 02:29 PM (HE0fu)
 
I noticed you mentioned pay alone. What about her bennies? Are they of the gold plated type?
 
Can she earn an equivalent amount including these bennies in a private school?
 
I'm not putting your daughter down nor downplaying her efforts. I'm reframing the issue. Also, keep in mind that this isn't just about teachers, but ALL public sector employees and the non-adversarial relationship between public unions and their employers (us).

121 46
Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest?
Posted by: lewis at March 04, 2011 02:13 PM (i/Leq)

I've got news for you, sunshine: the best and brightest opted out of a teaching career long ago. The majority of teachers being turned out today are the schlubs who couldn't cut it in tougher fields of study. However, make a simple switch to Education major, and voilà!, a substantial portion of the required course load becomes "how to edjimacate" classes that are worthless, absolutely worthless, because they are dedicated to the "participation is important, accomplishment is not" mindset that permeates our schools.

I have an advanced degree in chemistry. I'm more than capable of teaching the material at high school level at this very moment. (Whether I have the temperament for doing it is another question altogether.) But the teacher's unions have set up a closed shop and, for me to qualify to teach at that level, I would have to waste time and money "studying" the bilge water that passes for education courses. Ain't happening, buckeroo ...

122 ace, the other number that needs to be mentioned is:  Median household income in Milwaukee is $32216.

I know "median" and "average" aren't the same, but half the HOUSEHOLDS in Milwaukee are making a third of what one average teacher makes.  If the children in those households have health insurance at all, and it's not through BadgerCare (S-CHIP), it's sure as hell not the low-deductible low-copay get-yer-Viagra-here coverage the teachers get.

I feel like some sort of socialist when I point this out, but the teachers and Democrats and union goons want to extract money from the $32K HOUSEHOLDS so $100K INDIVIDUALS don't have to use their own precious wages to pay for a portion of their living expenses.  WTF, people.

123 Average Total Yearly Compensation For Milwaukee Teachers: $101,000

Given the fact that they only work around 8 months out of the year, that really comes out to a yearly compensation of 150K - along with the beauty of being able to charge the parents of the little shits up the wazoo for special tutoring.

124 Defined benefit plans are untenable. They cannot be maintained and this is the reason for the gaping holes in these public sector retirement funds. All public sector pensions need to be converted to defined contribution plans with graduated conversion rates.

I agree that that's the goal. We might even manage it on a case-by-case basis. But the next time the unmentionables are in control, "reforms" will just easily re-fix the problem back in the insane direction.

What I'm requesting and proposing is a succinct law (or Amendment if needed) general enough to cover all the loopholes categorically.

It would have 65% or more support right off the bat, and be a win-the-independents issue. Support would immediately drop steeply in the transition between 'Are you in favor of prohibiting...' to 'Republicans are proposing...', but would still get wild support from Republicans and Tea Party types, with decent support from Libertarians, and true Independents.

This is a reform that costs us nothing. Opposition will be from people that were always fundamentally opposed to anything we do. The backdrop of the rampant insanity in public sector pensions would mean even our lunatic fringe types would seem obviously on the right course championing this. Always pick offense. This is offense.

125 112
But where will they enjoy their smoke/drink/coke breaks?
Posted by: Barry Obama at March 04, 2011 02:33 PM (zgZzy)

The same place their students do that now: in the restrooms.

126 And very few majors in college have lower SAT scores than teachers. That adjustment is never made when look at teachers' salaries in comparison to other "skilled" workers. Advanced degrees in education are meaningless, too. If we want to attract better teachers, we need to abolish all schools of education for starters. Any intelligent student would be bored to tears. Additionally, give incentive pay for good teachers. Public education has nothing to do with kids. It's simply a jobs program for women who are too stupid or lazy to choose a real major.

127 BadgerCare? oxymoron much, WI?

128 ya2daup It is people like you that SHOULD be teaching! Screw the teachers unions. They have been screwing the taxpayers and the children for years!

129 There arent any teachers that get OT....right?(if there are we are boned)


Who do you think watches us?

130

Actually,  I have a close relative who retired on a pension peaking at $70K--20 years ago.  I believe it now pays about $55K due to tough economic times.

131 There is always the cry that teachers have to buy "supplies" for their students out of their own pockets.

Having lived with several teachers (my mom, one of my brothers, an aunt, etc.), I can say this is complete bunk.  At least, in any substantive fashion.

The "supplies" they have to pay for "out of their own pockets" are pencils, paper, erasers, and that kind of crap.  It's more expensive in elementary school (when kids are still expected to bring construction paper and crayons and crap) and they only "have to" because they actually do it.

If, just one year, they said "Sorry, can't afford it," the school districts would pony up that money.  The other thing is it's not that expensive- except they all go out and do it all at once.  So they're buying enough stuff for roughly 1/3 of their kids (figure 8 kids' worth of supplies for an "average" 22:1 class).  Yes, in that case, it can cost a couple of hundred dollars.  If they spent that over the entire year, they wouldn't even notice.

132 Repeat on topic

Nikki Haley to add SC to list of States cutting back on health care and retirement for State employees.

http://tinyurl.com/4f3qxaq

Three things:

First SC does not have State employee unions and they are not getting the "golden" plans that the Blue State people are getting.

Second she will have to get this past the FDR legislature.  That will be tough. She has a R majority but a sizable portion of them are ex-Dems and they still vote and act like Dems. They gave Sanford hell.

Third the problem in SC is that there are far to many employees and overlapping agencies. In short the problem isn't that they are paid too much. The problem we have way too of them. Every politician in the State has to have some agency under his control so that all his cousins and nephews can have a job.

This is all left over from the days when Pitchfork Ben Tillman took over the State and wrote the new Constitution that gave all the power to the legislature and committees within that legislature.

133 I wonder what keeps holding us back?
Let me give you an example of Union insanity. My wife is a dedicated HS history teacher. That's all she has ever taught. She gets good results with her students. I've moved a couple of times in the past 6 years, so she has repeatedly had to restart building union seniority. Budgetary measures call for laying off teachers at the elementary level. She will get layed off due to lack of seniority if one of those elementary teachers also holds a credential in history; even if the other teacher has spent their career at the elementary level, never taught at the HS level, and has no proficiency at teaching the subject matter to HS students. 

Union says one cog is as good as another. And the more senior cog always gets theirs first. Regardless of experience or performance.
 

134

88 You don't have to argue it, that's exactly what happens. But there is an active feedback system in the market, if your costs are too high sales go down. In the public space costs are just passed on to taxpayers until they reach a breaking point. See Wisconsin.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 04, 2011 02:25 PM (TMB3S)

89 Yes they do, but private businesses keep costs at a minimum so they don't have to raise prices. Public Unions and Elected Officials have no such incentive. They have a captive customer base. I can choose to stop buying a product if the price increase, however I can't avoid paying taxes

Posted by: Ben at March 04, 2011 02:25 PM (wuv1c)

Right, but why are corporate taxes just passed on to the consumer and wages for a union in the private sector not? In other words, why don't businesses just jack up their prices to compensate for increased costs like they would for a tax increase? I am guessing that taxes are applied regardless of industry and thus affect the economy more directly as a whole, so that individual businesses are less likely to suffer due to increased prices, while union wages apply only to the companies which are unionized, so they are at a disadvantage beside non-unionized shops of the same industry and those outside the industry that consumers might be more inclined to patronize if prices go up.

I am trying to figure out why a liberal would be wrong to make the same argument about union wages - they are just passed along to the consumer - that we habitually do about corporate taxes.

135

There is always the cry that teachers have to buy "supplies" for their students out of their own pockets.

Last I knew, they could get up to $300 of classroom expenses back on their taxes.

You know, whenever I see HeatherRadish's name, I figure I might as well not even post; she says what's on my mind but does so a lot better than I can. But she's dead-on right in #125. And it really burns merchants when they overhear a mom tell her kid to pick something out for himself, then ask the store owner for a discount because she's a teacher.

I know this is rude, but FUCK.

136 And public school teachers don't TEACH classes all day. Half the time is "prep periods." And they have fucking assistants in their classes!

I don't know about other places, but in TX (depending on School District) it's 30 minutes (State mandated minimum) to 1 hour a day for "planning."  Plus 30 minutes for lunch.

Teachers have a sweet deal, but let's not make it sound yet better than it is.  More people might want to be teachers...

137 125
I know "median" and "average" aren't the same, but half the HOUSEHOLDS in Milwaukee are making a third of what one average teacher makes.  If the children in those households have health insurance at all, and it's not through BadgerCare (S-CHIP), it's sure as hell not the low-deductible low-copay get-yer-Viagra-here coverage the teachers get.Posted by:
HeatherRadish at March 04, 2011 02:41 PM (nAOMZ)

Pedantic note: when you are comparing salaries, more often than not, the preferred statistic for comparison is the median, not the mean (average).

138 $60k gross is more than a lot of architects make, for a full year of work (and a heck of a lot more OT).  And their benefits certainly don't get close to $40k.  You need to have your own firm to be making between $70k-120k, more if you're lucky.  $100k is $50/hr for a whole year's work, directly billable.  That's gross billings, before taxes and overhead.  You'd have to be billing more than $80/hr to cover taxes and overhead.  And that's again, for a whole year.

Also you have to be studying instead of partying for 5 years in college, so there's that, too.

Oh - and you don't get a pension.  You get to work until you die.

Oh, and another thing.  The architects don't have jobs right now.  So that's $0 and falling.

139

Playing the Devil's advocate here: Couldn't one argue that private businesses just pass the increased cost of wages on to their customers? Of course, they have more of an incentive to keep costs down than do governments, since they can't just borrow money the way governments think they can, but how are increased wages different from corporate taxes, which we usually say are just passed on to the consumer?

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 04, 2011 02:20 PM (dbYs

Corporate taxes apply uniformly (mostly) to every business in the same industry in the same town.  So an increase in these corporate taxes can pass through to the customers because no business has to eat them to stay competitive (again mostly).  Think of a hotel /car retal tax newly imposed or increased by the local town in order to fund the building of their new sports shrine.

Now, suppose a national coffee franchise from Seattle makes a move into a rural Texas town and offers its employees twice the minimum wage, full paid health and dental insurance, two weeks paid vacations, 401(k) matching, etc.  None of the local coffee shops pay or have benefits anything like this.  While the employees all want to work at the new coffee shop, the locals laugh at the outrageous prices the new shop must charge for a cuppa joe and continue getting their caffeine jolts at the same local places their pappy and grandpappy did. 

The market (represented by the combined decision making of the individuals buying coffee in that town) has decided the equilibrium price of a cuppa mud.   The fancy vendi and biscotti notwithstanding, a single coffee shop just cannot pass through to customers, who have options, the above market wages and benefits it would like to pay to assuage its social justice group guilt.

There will be a quiz on Monday.  Comprehensive Finals will be on Election Day.

140 The majority of teachers being turned out today are the schlubs who couldn't cut it in tougher fields of study.

I lived in an all-women's dorm for my junior year. I have a fond memory of sitting in the lounge on a Thursday night wiring a circuit board for a lab as a "break" from debugging my assembler code (I'm old), and listening to a group of ElEd majors complain about having to make construction-paper cutouts for a bulletin board due the next day.  It was cutting into their drinking-at-the-frats time.

Oh, I'm sure there was a super-important educational principle involved, like "putting a sun on a spring-themed display might alienate Eskimo children", but please.  You do not need to be brilliant to do that work.  You just have to be willing to do it.

141 Funky Cold Median

142 She goes to work at seven and is seldom out of there before six in the evening

Not to denigrate her in anyway, bit this is a pretty standard work day in my company. I work in aerospace, and 12 hour days are the norm. Then you get to go home and work online answering your emails and such till 11:30 or so. And God forbid somebody in Saudi or Oz needs you to do something for them during their working hours, because it's always an emergency and very complicated and you will go without sleep that night.

And we don't get three months off every summer, 2 weeks at Christmas or a week at Easter and 13 Federal holidays, nor pupil free days to catch up on our backlogs.

I don't begrudge teachers the time off, they need that. But long daily hours and correcting papers at home during their free time is an argument that doesn't cut it any more for me.

We're all free to seek employment elsewhere if we feel to put upon by our current working conditions.

143

Just read Iowahawk's new piece.

He takes Krugman to the woodshed. Good Stuff.

144 The Democrats have really fucked up. At first I thought their leave was emotional, like all of liberalism, and they would come back. But now that they're seeing the hardcore left, they pissed themselves. I think their excuse to come back will be that pregnant Senator.

145

Appreciate the knowledge layed out. Some have issues with k-12 funding...whats the thoughts on higher ed?, guess I dont see how somebody that charges tuitition should be gettting any assistance

146 Right, but why are corporate taxes just passed on to the consumer and wages for a union in the private sector not?

Ummm... they are.  Part of the price of any product or service in the private sector is labor cost.  The issue is that private companies have to compete with each other, so they have incintive to keep those labor costs as low as possible.

Government has exactly the opposite pressure.  Because the Union donates to the politicians, it behooves the politicians to see to it that the Union has as much money as is possible.  Thus required unionization, and bloated government salaries.

147 Pedantic note: when you are comparing salaries, more often than not, the preferred statistic for comparison is the median, not the mean (average).

Posted by: ya2daup at March 04, 2011 02:50 PM (7GfKM)

You're corredct, but that's because there are usually some major outliers on the large side.  With teacher pay there aren't many that fall outside of well-defined range, so the average salary is about as good as the median. But, you're correct, in the general case one wants to examine the median salary.

148

Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest?

Sadly, many of them are "The best and brightest"--at shoveling out Marxist dogma and "multicultural" education. The result? Kids who can't find America on a map but hate it anyway.

149

142 Corporate taxes apply uniformly (mostly) to every business in the same industry in the same town.  So an increase in these corporate taxes can pass through to the customers because no business has to eat them to stay competitive (again mostly).  Think of a hotel /car retal tax newly imposed or increased by the local town in order to fund the building of their new sports shrine.

Posted by: Count de Monet at March 04, 2011 02:52 PM (XBM1t)

That is about what I figured, but since economics beyond the basics are not something I have studied much in depth, I thought I'd better see what others had to say.

150 Wanna get sick to yer stomach?

In my state of NY, a quick Google search using "new york state teacher pension database" will get you a lot of hits, and one choice is a site called something like "SeeThroughNY," which then gets the user into a .pdf copy of all the contracts in each and every school district of the state.  Contracts for teachers, contracts for superintendents, all of them.

I've got smoke coming from my eyeballs after scanning through our 50-page contract for teachers, which expires this coming June.

Health care for life for all.  Vision also.  Dental also.  And reaching 65 years of age has no effect on this joyride.

No Medicare for the teachers.  Just a gold-plated ride off into the sunset of retirement.

151 You could argue that, barring any kind of objective scale on which to rate performance, paying teachers well is a detriment to the quality of education. Good salesmen perform well based on a motivation to make money...selling goods makes them wealthy. In education, this approach really doesn't work outside of school presidents and administrators. They "bring in students", and earn the money.

 On a teacher level....it doesn't work that way. Good teachers are usually motivated by a love of children, a love to teach or a desire to shape young minds. If teachers make subsistence level salary, only people who want to teach (i.e good teachers) will enter the profession. The higher salaries and benefits encourage others to enter the profession who don't really care about teaching.

 Honestly, a lower pay scale would probably mean less full time teachers for life...and more "part time job for retired people". A supplemental income, not a full profession.

 Now, if you believe in objective way to evaluate teaching performance...you can implement pay scales. But I think teachers actually have a point on this. A great teacher can be rated poorly for bad kids, and vice versa. I'd rather just pay them all next to nothing, and use volunteers and part time people. I'd volunteer to teach as a part time job for 30k a year. Hire more teachers with fewer hours and you get a better educational system, imo. That's just my crackpot idea, though.

152

If the Right can't win this battle, it's over.

If liberals were willing to die on the hill for Obamacare, our side has to be willing to do the same for government unions and collective bargaining.

If we win, and government workers aren't starving in the streets in a few years, we feast on the Toldja Sos for years. We are so clearly right on this. The benefits - in policy and politics - are enormous.

153 The trashman are making good money by working hard -- with competition.  Maybe the teachers should learn something from the smelly guy with little jail time on his record.

154 My mom was a public school teacher in California. She was up at 5 to be at work by 7 am (dealing with her kids, too), and never left work before 4:30 or 5, and always brought work home.

I was grading papers by the time I was in third grade, beginning with spelling tests and grammar tests with fixed answers.

Don't tell me that teachers don't work. They do.

All that said - the idea that the teachers' unions have benefited education is ridiculous.

155 I don't know about other places, but in TX (depending on School District) it's 30 minutes (State mandated minimum) to 1 hour a day for "planning."  Plus 30 minutes for lunch.

Teachers have a sweet deal, but let's not make it sound yet better than it is.  More people might want to be teachers...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 04, 2011 02:49 PM (8y9MW)

Bill Gates gave a speech to the governors this week in D. C. (our governor gregoire tried to crawl under the table) and made the following points about teachers.

In 1960 there were 40 adults for every 1,000 students in the school system. In 2009 there were 125 adults per 1,000 students. Graduation rates and test scores have been flat since 1960.

Teachers in 1960 worked 8 hrs per day, in 2009 they worked 5 hrs. per day.

That pretty much sums up how unions are fucking us in addition to salaries and benefits.

156 Collective Bargaining Rights for Fucksaw Operators - YES!

157 "I am trying to figure out why a liberal would be wrong to make the same argument about union wages - they are just passed along to the consumer - that we habitually do about corporate taxes." The lefty wouldn't be wrong if the lefty is talking about the private sector.

158  On a teacher level....it doesn't work that way. Good teachers are usually motivated by a love of children, a love to teach or a desire to shape young minds. If teachers make subsistence level salary, only people who want to teach (i.e good teachers) will enter the profession.

You mean, like the nuns at the Catholic school.

159 Posted by: Red Shirt at March 04, 2011 02:53 PM (FIDMq)

They shouldn't.  If they weren't, in fact, it's my bet that college would be much cheaper and "University Professor" would not be so highly-sought-after a career.

160

Teachers should be paid even more. How else can you attract the best and brightest?

Why would any reasonably sane society want to waste its best and brightest on teaching kids? 

161   If our country had the absolute best results in producing the world's top students based on real knowledge (not some abstract view on knowledge) then OK maybe  just perhaps it would be not so much of a joke.
 The school system is fucked, period. Gut it from the top down.

162

She goes to work at seven and is seldom out of there before six in the evening

 Pffft...light weight piker.

No offense, just sayin.

 

163 143
I lived in an all-women's dorm for my junior year. I have a fond memory of sitting in the lounge on a Thursday night wiring a circuit board for a lab as a "break" from debugging my assembler code (I'm old), and listening to a group of ElEd majors complain about having to make construction-paper cutouts for a bulletin board due the next day.  It was cutting into their drinking-at-the-frats time.
Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 04, 2011 02:52 PM (nAOMZ)

A substantial part of the time I spent on my research was dedicated to programming a Digital PDP-8 at the assembly level to have it control the scanning by the spectrophotometer, acquire data, process it, and send it to the computing center at LBL over a 300 baud modem (this replaced punching out the data to paper tape).. Good times!

164 Pedantic note: when you are comparing salaries, more often than not, the preferred statistic for comparison is the median, not the mean (average).

Yeah...I'd be happier comparing median to median, but I don't have the median salary info immediately available.  I still think my point about extracting money applies.  The MPS School Board has some power to raise property taxes...let me poke around a bit...

165

I make $10.00 an hour. 

 No bennies.

I can teach the average 8 year old to make a leather wallet, a braided keychain, and a ceramic mug...

all in about 3 hours a week over a 5 week span.

 

 

166 146 We had a thread here dealing with that yesterdayish.

167 >>Right, but why are corporate taxes just passed on to the consumer and wages for a union in the private sector not? They are. I remember reading a study a while back that compared the labor cost of a car made in Detroit with union labor to the labor cost of a car made in Japan with non-union labor. I can't remember the exact ratio but the difference was enormous and a major reason for the collapse of the US auto industry. Many foreign manufacturers are now building their cars in the US. In Michigan? Nope, in South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, etc. Low cost labor and no unions. What company do liberals love to loath? WalMart. Why? They have no unions and not surprisingly some of the lowest everyday prices on virtually everything. Don't try arguing economics with liberals. You'll have more success teaching a dog to talk.

168 150
Posted by: Henry Harold Humphries - you can call me 'H' at March 04, 2011 02:54 PM (Ikk5M)

Point taken ...

169

Collective Bargaining Rights for Fucksaw Operators - YES!

That's how we got Trigger Locks and Stools.

We're with you, brother!

170 "Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174). It's the same story when education majors finish college and take tests for admission to graduate schools. In the case of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE), education majors have an average score that's the lowest (467) of all majors except for sociology majors (434). " http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams051904.asp

171 Posted by: robtr at March 04, 2011 02:55 PM (MtwBb)

Not disagreeing.  I'm just pointing out that there is no need to make it sound worse than it really is, either.

I'm kind of spoiled on this, having grown up in (non-union) Texas (yes, there are Teachers Unions- 3, in fact.  They're basically non-factors most of the time, though), but I also grew up with a teacher (my mom), my aunt was a teacher, my brother became a teacher (now an assistant principal), and several close friends of the family were teachers.  I know almost all of this.

Additionally, I worked for BCBSTX (who administered the teacher's health plan until 2001, IIRC, and still administer the State Employees plan), so I know how awesome their benefits are, plus retirement, etc., etc.

I also know that making it seem worse than the reality is a bad tactic: once you're proven wrong on whatever exaggerated point, it's easier for people to believe you're wrong about other things.

172 Cost of WI Statehouse Cleanup: Tape Residue Removal: $ 50 Hippie Decontamination: $7.49995 million

173

OK, on the $6.5M marble repair:  it will probably cost that.  I worked for a company that made an error on a historic building facade:  1" of marble was removed from the fascia to install a new sign.

That's what they call in court, "defacing a historic building."  The repair must follow the guidelines for designated monuments, which include:  finding the EXACT SAME stone, the repair work done by master stonemasons, etc.

Also, the finish on marble is easily damaged by chemicals.  All that masking tape, etc., require solvents to remove the leftover adhesive, all of which will remove the finish from the marble.  From what I've read, there were 100s - 1,000s of those on the inside and outside of the building -- mostly on marble.

I say take it out the union's dues -- they defaced a historic building.  They should pay for it.  My company had to, and ignorance of our error was no excuse, either.

174 On top of all of that; most children are regarded as little shitstains and layabouts.

- Just herd them on thru, -next!

175 She goes to work at seven and is seldom out of there before six in the evening

12 months a year? Does she carry a pager on weekends and holidays in case there's an emergency and she needs to go in? Ever have to cancel plans to come in and meet a deadline? Have to take vacation days for "continuing education" for licensure (how about that automatic raise for getting another degree that the rest of us don't get?)?

People in other white-collar professional occupations have to do a lot of shit just to stay employed, and they don't whine about it on such a grand scale.

176 Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 04, 2011 03:05 PM (nAOMZ)

True, that.  If you want to drive a teacher to mouth-frothing rage, point out to them that no one actually gets paid for days they miss.  Teachers LOVE to claim that as some special burden they, alone, have to bear- and it's hilarious to watch their lips start to tremble as they realize the argument isn't gaining any traction.

Sometimes I do that to the teachers in my family when there's nothing good to watch and no one wants to play board games.

177 She goes to work at seven and is seldom out of there before six in the evening-----and that's not unusual for teachers. And it goes on year after year. Well...so does everyone who has a job. And most of us do it for all twelve months of the year. And don't get guaranteed pensions and health benefits (or any benefits at all, in many cases). Teachers are valuable, but don't overglamorize what they're doing. They're doing a job, just like every other working stiff who has to get up in the morning.

178 For those of you who are interested, here is an article that alleges Unions make the bulk of their money from "managing" the benefits package.


Link

179 54
Yes.   Garbage men do a difficult job that few are willing to do.  Like everyone else, they do it 12 months a year.
Posted by: garrett at March 04, 2011 02:17 PM (VJU+j)

Collecting garbage is an honorable profession. It was something that I did for one summer about 20% of the time. That, and cleaning public restrooms.

You can learn a lot about people performing those jobs. The chief lesson is that far too many of them behave like the self-centered, ignorant, boorish slobs that we have seen infesting the capitol grounds in Madison for the past several weeks.

180 "She goes to work at seven and is seldom out of there before six in the evening."

Posted by: Dennis at March 04, 2011 02:29 PM (HE0fu)

I have never worked 40 hour weeks in my life. It must be nice.

I certainly don't feel sorry for her that she works a normal day and has three months off.

181 Does she carry a pager on weekends and holidays in case there's an emergency and she needs to go in

Yea, forgot about this, although I have a Blackberry, not a pager, and it's expected to be on at all times.

Have to take vacation days for "continuing education" for licensure

Had to miss my grandmother's 100th birthday celebration at a huge family reunion to get my last CEUs in ITAR/EAR compliance.

182 Seriously people, read that article. It may open your eyes as to why the Unions are fighting so hard to maintain collective bargaining even if it results in layoffs of dues paying members.

Link again.

183 146 169
Test Scores, Unions and Polls

184 They're doing a job, just like every other working stiff who has to get up in the morning.

Posted by: Monty at March 04, 2011 03:11 PM (4Pleu)

I think the response was to Hollowpoint and it being a part time job, not being there 40 hours a week..etc etc.

185 I was grading papers by the time I was in third grade, beginning with spelling tests and grammar tests with fixed answers.

Your mother was paid for work that was actually performed by an uncompensated 9 yr. old? Clearly it is children who are in need of union protection from the rapacious greed of teachers who don't hesitate to exploit untrained child labor.

186

170 >>Right, but why are corporate taxes just passed on to the consumer and wages for a union in the private sector not?

They are tried to pass them through. I remember reading a study a while back that compared the labor cost of a car made in Detroit with union labor to the labor cost of a car made in Japan with non-union labor. I can't remember the exact ratio but the difference was enormous and a major reason for the collapse of the US auto industry. Many foreign manufacturers are now building their cars in the US. In Michigan? Nope, in South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, etc. Low cost labor and no unions.

****
Slight correction.  Yes Detroit tried (and did so for a while) to stick the public with the uneconomic costs of their generous wages and benefits.  Over time the scheme failed and the market voted to reject Detroit's offerings at their prices and chose Japan's offerings at their prices.  Plus, Japan manufacturing locally in the USA removed the foreign currency exchange price gains and losses from the equation.  Germany followed Japan into US based auto manufacturing with similar success.

187 DiogenesLamp  --  that posting dovetails nicely into the questions about where all of the cash for political contributions comes from - as the math doesn't add up if it is coming from the member dues.

188 Someone up above asked if the retired teachers get final  salary compensation. My sister taught for 30 years in Ca. They offered her what they called a "golden parachute" to retire at age 60. It pays her 90% of her working salary plus health, dental etc.They did it because as a long time teacher she was making 85,000 dollars a year and the new teachers star a t around $30,000. Nice gig if you can get it...

189 I have a fond memory of sitting in the lounge on a Thursday night wiring a circuit board for a lab as a "break" from debugging my assembler code Is it wrong that I became sexually aroused when I read this? ("A fully excited Millie Amp cried out, 'Ohm! Ohm! Ohm!'")

190 167
Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 04, 2011 03:00 PM (nAOMZ)

You needn't look any further on my account, because I am certain the picture wouldn't change: teachers in Milwaukee are grossly overcompensated relative to the taxpayers that support them.

191 I want to see a poll in Wisconsin that asks...if the bill goes thru and dues are not automatically withdrawn, will you  still contribute to the union.  Dark roooms and voice scramblers provided of course

192 188 Your mother was paid for work that was actually performed by an uncompensated 9 yr. old? Clearly it is children who are in need of union protection from the rapacious greed of teachers who don't hesitate to exploit untrained child labor.
Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head

Bite your tongue! I was highly trained child labor! And I was compensated - my book habit was already severe, so for every class of quizzes graded, some of the cost of books was defrayed.

193 190 DiogenesLamp  --  that posting dovetails nicely into the questions about where all of the cash for political contributions comes from - as the math doesn't add up if it is coming from the member dues.

Posted by: Jean at March 04, 2011 03:15 PM (WkuV6)

Yup. It was a revelation to me, and it explained a lot. I sent the link to Ace through e-mail, but he didn't acknowledge if he had received it. Judging by his omission of mention in his article, I assume he thought it was spam and ignored it.

Seriously people, read that article!

Link

194 I'm not sure, but I think the teachers in NY only contribute a percentage of their initial salary; I don't think the contributions rise with the salary. And I think they only contribute for 10 years.

195 do teachers really need smart boards to teach?   honestly, the one room school house did well with a chalkboard and slates.................

196 192 I have a fond memory of sitting in the lounge on a Thursday night wiring a circuit board for a lab as a "break" from debugging my assembler code

Is it wrong that I became sexually aroused when I read this? ("A fully excited Millie Amp cried out, 'Ohm! Ohm! Ohm!'")

Posted by: Monty at March 04, 2011 03:16 PM (4Pleu)

Someone else out there a skilled electron pusher? For what it's worth, I was building hardware and writing machine code when I was 14. Still make good money on the side doing that stuff.

197 This American method of education never fully developed;
it was stopped about forty years ago, by the eager German-minded
reformers, who believed that the State can spend an
American's money for his, or his children's, education, much
more wisely than he can. American schooling is now compulsory,
enforced by the police and controlled by the State (that
is, by the politicians in office) and paid for by compulsory
taxes.

Rose Wilder Lane
1943

198 "...to get my last CEUs in ITAR/EAR compliance."

Posted by: MissTammy at March 04, 2011 03:13 PM (BebB7)

I love it when you talk dirty!

199 honestly, the one room school house did well with a chalkboard and slates..

Teachers in Afghanistan teach in the open air, under threat of death, and I'm guessing they don't get medical..

That right there is  love of teaching.

200 198 do teachers really need smart boards to teach?   honestly, the one room school house did well with a chalkboard and slates................. Posted by: phoenixgirl

Now that is a truly excellent question!

More, they did it with students ranging in age from about 6 to 16.

Do you, too, suspect that basic literacy was higher?

201

And one other point about teaching: they do the same thing day after day, year after year.  The basics that are supposed to be taught in K-12 have not changed, measurably, over the last 100 years.  All that has changed is that most students 60 years ago knew the information better than students today do.  but the teachers' jobs have not changed much (with respect to actual teaching and curricula).

So, we have a stagnant profession that the workers think they are being undercompensated for and demand more ... for something that someone having done 50 years ago could step right into a classroom and teach the exact same stuff, again, and probably be better at it than today's teachers.

This is one of the beauties of teaching.  The material, for the most part, never changes.  I can teach the same course year after year.  It takes me no time to prepare (since I have taught the class 50 times, already) and it takes little effort to do it well.

202 Unions are fine for the private sector. Negotiate too many benefits and the company goes belly up. Negotiate too many benefits with the government employer and the government doesn't go belly up. The taxpayer does.

203

I love it when you talk dirty!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sFucksaw (NJConservative)

How YOU doin'?

204 Only if you start asking her for the measurements of her STACKSIZE and SECTORSIZE. oh yeah, baby. yeah. keep talkin.

205 If you want to drive a teacher to mouth-frothing rage, point out to them that no one actually gets paid for days they miss.

I haven't had paid sick leave since 2005.  On one hand, it sucks when you get sick. On the other, bosses are pretty generous about "Hey, I'm going to leave at noon because my team's in the tournament" when they know it'll save them some money.

(Speaking of tedious shit white-collar professionals have to do to stay employed, I'm looking for someplace to live in Indianapolis (south or SW side) for four months, starting a week from tomorrow.  Pfeh.)

206 Had to miss my grandmother's 100th birthday celebration at a huge family reunion to get my last CEUs in ITAR/EAR compliance. Oooooooo.... DAMN, baby. And then what did you do? Don't leave nothin' out.

207 Ideally, should STACKSIZE be a large number and SECTORSIZE be a small number?

208 The basics that are supposed to be taught in K-12 have not changed, measurably, over the last 100 years.

Supposed to. It really feels like math and civics and language have been supplanted by sex and race and Gaia.

209 ("A fully excited Millie Amp cried out, 'Ohm! Ohm! Ohm!'")

Oh dear.

210 uh dude? 100,000+ in total compensation? That's nothing. Try Illinois. They currently have 14,000+ teachers drawing more than $100,000+ in BASE SALARY. Think I'm joking? Huh? Do you? Google it.

211 Posted by: HeatherRadish

Those photos are great.

Stop Leaching
Start Teaching

Love it!

212 I remember reading a study a while back that compared the labor cost of a car made in Detroit with union labor to the labor cost of a car made in Japan with non-union labor.

The last numbers I saw was back during the auto bailout. Wages and benefits for union workers in Detroit were running $78.00/hr not counting the requirement to still get paid even after laid off.

The same auto workers in TN were getting about $40/hr in wages and benefits. (and no still getting paid if laid off)

213 202
Only if you start asking her for the measurements of her STACKSIZE and SECTORSIZE.
Posted by: Downscaled Upscale at March 04, 2011 03:22 PM (IhHdM)

Steer clear of asking whether you may POKE or PEEK at her handiwork, too.

214 I don think "teaching" means what the unions think it means.
And so it follows that the expression "public education" is also misnamed by the very group responsible for language instruction.

These are the same people that gave us "political correctness" and "social justice".  Mangling and bastardizing everything that they touch is their special talent.  

215 Who would have thought that the computing field was so aggressively sexual?

216 Oooooooo.... DAMN, baby. And then what did you do? Don't leave nothin' out.

Empire of Jeff, you are either a mean, sarcastic son of a bitch or sexy as hell; I'm hopin' for both.

I'm an old-fashioned, family oriented kind of female; it bothered me to have to miss the reunion and my grandma's birthday after my vacation time had been approved, but I did what I had to do, and I didn't whine about it at work.

I don't understand all this bitching about minor issues at work. Unions were formed to protect workers from ABUSE, not to prevent them from actually having to work.

217

diana

 

i think for the kids attending the one room school house regularly...yes their literacy was higher...the curriculum was tougher...look at the mcguffy readers...i'm not anti technology but i do think since everyone is hurting for money...classrooms should not be racing for the "latest" technology...

218 Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 04, 2011 03:21 PM (Cm66w)

No.  They don't. 

Actually, I'm okay with Whiteboards having replaced chalk-boards, but "smart boards" are really just silly.

If they're not going to read the material at home, they're not going to remember what you showed them on the board anyway.

And that, really, is the crux of the matter.  We don't (well, shouldn't) need "the best and brightest" to be teachers.  We need parents to make sure their kids do their homework, and keep their noses to the proverbial grind-stone. 

The best teacher in the world can't make a lazy student learn.  The worst teacher in the world won't prevent a motivated student from doing the same.

219 The only consolation is that those smug union a-holes will have to start paying taxes on those $41K in bennies if their saviors health care take over is somehow rammed through the Supreme Court.

It's not much, just Schadenfreude, but I hope Obamacare gets deep sixed as it is unconstitutional.

220 The only consolation is that those smug union a-holes will have to start paying taxes on those $41K in bennie

Doubtful. Waivers.

221

What happens to priceless antiquities when the present Moose-limb dictator falls?

Not good.

222 224 The only consolation is that those smug union a-holes will have to start paying taxes on those $41K in bennies if their saviors health care take over is somehow rammed through the Supreme Court.

It's not much, just Schadenfreude, but I hope Obamacare gets deep sixed as it is unconstitutional.

Posted by: Angry White Male at March 04, 2011 03:36 PM (7cXE7)

Really?

223 221
Empire of Jeff, you are either a mean, sarcastic son of a bitch or sexy as hell; I'm hopin' for both.
Posted by: MissTammy at March 04, 2011 03:35 PM (BebB7)

He's a misogynistic, baby-makin' Pez dispenser who reduced me to tears yesterday

_{^{And I kind of liked it ... except for the glitter tits reference}}

224 I haven't had paid sick leave since 2005.

Really, no one (except maybe politicians) gets "paid sick leave."  That PTO the rest of us get?  Yeah, it's already figured into our salaries.  Don't believe me?  Work one year without taking any time off.  Work the next year taking every single one of your allowed days.

Did you get paid any more for that year you didn't take vacation?

In point of fact, not taking vacation is like giving up one of your benefits; leaving "money on the table" as it were.

225 OT: Rocket carrying climate satellite crashed after takeoff.  Bush blamed.

226 I"m a lawyer, and I don't make that much--and I live in NYC.  This is disgusting.  $103K in a Wisconsin City is like...at least $50K more than that here--at least.

227 In the private sector, you start out in a business at entry level and work your way up by showing the boss you handle more work and responsibility and therefore deserve greater pay. In the public school system, thanks to collectively bargained teacher payment schedules, you will enter your first year of employment teaching, let's say English at $35,000 a year. By year 12, teaching the same course, with no new responsibilities or effort, your pay will have gone from $35,000 to over $80,000 a year. That's your base salary alone. THIS is why public service with these kind of insane payment schedules divorced from annual performance reviews and market forces draws so many slackers and deadbeats. You can have a teacher who was bright eyed and bushy tailed in year 1, who by year 10 is just phoning it in and making 4x what he did when he started. There's no incentive to improve or get better because your pay increases are AUTOMATIC. All you have to do is the bare minimum to keep from getting fired. And we all know how hard it is to fire a public school teacher, right?

228 Damn! what am I saying at 226? This is my chance to gitme somma dat Egyptian artifacts cheap on ebay. Seeya.....

229 I loved smart boards, but I was the only one 'techie' enough to figure out how to use them. In theory, they're kind of cool, the child can walk up, press a key and get a print out of what is on them. In practice, hardly anyone ever walked up and wanted a print out. Mainly I used them to project movies onto and used as an alternative to the chalkboard, since chalk gives me the willies and expensive colored felt tip markers were more...colorful. Since I left the school, no one uses them. I think they cost about $1k a piece. We had half a dozen.

Posted by: Downscaled Upscale at March 04, 2011 03:34 PM (IhHdM)

As far as I'm concerned, nothing beats a regular, old chalkboard.  And not one of those nasty green ones, but a regular, black chalkboard with normal white chalk.  Everything else is a waste, so far as I'm concerned.

230 The ultimate goal is to POP your STACK. Yeah, baby.

231 Posted by: maddogg at March 04, 2011 03:37 PM (OlN4e)

We won't know until November, 2012.

232 The only consolation is that those smug union a-holes will have to start paying taxes on those $41K in bennies if their saviors health care take over is somehow rammed through the Supreme Court.  Posted by: Angry White Male

900 waivers and counting might just change your calculation. The nomenklatura will never suffer their own stupidity.

233 Don't forget their penchant for kinky recursions ...

234 Floppy drive! Hard drive! Memory stick!

Gigabytes of RAM!

Time to hit the bunk ...

235

Playing the Devil's advocate here: Couldn't one argue that private businesses just pass the increased cost of wages on to their customers?

First, I appreciate your saying that you're playing Devil's advocate. Thanks.

Second, you're right. That's not only a potential argument, it's also sound. That's exactly what private business do. Customers indeed pick up these expenses through the prices they pay. But they can also buy their stuff from someone else. In other words, they can choose not to pay.

Taxpayers can only exercise this choice by moving to a different state.

236 CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative)-- thanks!

237 Empire of Jeff, you are either a mean, sarcastic son of a bitch or sexy as hell; I'm hopin' for both. omg... omg... OMG! ! ! :/> BUFFER OVERFLOW :/> UUUHHHHNNNNHHHH :/> :/> :/> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...

238

Lot of valid criticism of teaching here. Then there's this:

And public school teachers don't TEACH classes all day. Half the time is "prep periods." And they have fucking assistants in their classes!

Sorry, EofJ that's not true, at least where I live. The assistants fuck outside of school.

239

In the private sector, you start out in a business at entry level and work your way up by showing the boss you handle more work and responsibility and therefore deserve greater pay.

Exactly...I started working for my boss at 19, I turned 40 last November. I started answering phones and making deliveries. Now I'm in charge of 2million in inventory, the cust svc dept and handle all the purchasing for two other companies. 20+ yrs and not once have I complained about workload or hours because in the private sector, if you carry yourself like a twat, you get treated like a twat. Thats not to say I have never discussed my pay or benefits with my employer, I have...just on a man to man basis, like gentleman without lawyers-on a handshake.

 

240

1) About the supplies, I gotta remember that one.

2) About the $41k in benefits, it's easy to go crazy when you're estimating such numbers, so it should be backed up. Nonetheless, benefits for private people are generally pretty substantial, too (although not nearly this high).

3) Management in private companies usually aren't spending their own money, either - they just get budgets handed down to them. The thing there is that there's competition, and some level of supply-and-demand at low levels. At the upper levels, it seems like a small clique is simply exercizing their control over the company, and dipping into the till.

4) Money is only coming back to the negotiator if Democrats are doing the negotiating, which is not true right now.

The bottom line is that the teachers are effectively political cronies, cashing in on the spoils system and the fact that they hold our children hostage. I don't like to see finger-pointing at what they're paid (which smacks of socialist class warfare rhetoric). The basic principle that seems to be missed by both sides is that we need salaries to start being based on supply and demand (none of this crying about how much money is there), and to stop letting teachers union hide behind our kids.

241 :/>MISSTAMMY> RUNSOURCE SAMMICH EXP.300

242

It is clear that teachers in some places are well paid for what they do, though that is not true everywhere.  But I know for a fact that in Houston, city workers are generally paid very poorly, in some departments as much as 30% or more below what their private counterparts make.  I also know that the police and fire departments always get first priority, and that a very few of them, along with a very few city workers in management/administive positions, have gamed the system and gobbled tens of millions of dollars enriching themselves at the expense of the rest of the underpaid city workers and the public.  

Houston may wind up pulling an ERON on its retierees as a result, and I doubt we are alone in this.

243 On a flippant note, I just want to say I'm lovin' this Wisconsin stuff. Being a native and resident of New York State, I still have some latent sense of pride or loyalty deep down, and it's just really great to see some OTHER state be publically embarrased by the bizarre antics of its state senate on a national level, instead of us!

244 There is always the cry that teachers have to buy "supplies" for their students out of their own pockets. I can't help but think there's a reason for that -- that each year, a greater proportion of dollars earmarked for education goes to salaries, and is deducted from supplies.

Teacher salaries are the tip of the iceberg. The real money is in administration and administration is always growing. In my state there are fewer then one million people and there are 23 school districts. Each one has a district admin who pulls 6 figures in actual salary. He then has an entire staff and an office. When you finally arrive at a school the principles are pulling 80 plus and they have multiple vice principles. Each has staff. Then you have to pay a cop to sit in the schools and you pay bully councilors and other types of social workers.

No one in that group instructs one child.

It is so ludicrous that we have a tech school with no actual district attached to it that has a superintendent. So there is a single school that has an entire district administration.

245

Seeing a question in post 72 and answering it in 240 will be repetitive. Sorry. To make up for that, let me add something new:

Another option people have is to not pay their taxes. They can do this by becoming poor. Sure, renters pay property taxes; that owner's expense is included in the tenants' rent. But not if the tenants are deemed to be poor. If the tenants qualify and their rent is subsidized by the government, they avoid the issue. They avoid all issues, really.

It used to be that people didn't want to be poor. Poverty used to be an undesirable state to be in. Now, it makes increasing sense to people. If you're poor, you're the "little guy" that everyone is "sticking up for." People in government care about you. They'll make your life in poverty possible, then bearable, then comfortable. Eventually, you'll have good status as a poor person. Then you'll have a measure of power. In a way, you'll become one of society's elites.

So then something comes up, like this thing with the teachers union in Wisconsin. You don't really care one way or another. But if you have to take sides, you'll go with the side that keeps your lifestyle and station in life intact. It just makes sense.

I used a broad brush and went outside the lines, admittedly. But what we have to do to get this logic to stop making sense to people. To do this, we have to make it so people in goverenment don't benefit by the existence of so many poor people.

How about we start by implementing merit pay for elected officials?

246

Just look at what Catholic school teachers are paid, to accomplish pretty much the same thing as public school kids, and it becomes obvious that supply and demand has gone pretty much out the window. Granted, there's a sort of "charity work" aspect to such work, but it's not like there's a shortage of qualified teachers in the world, and the fact that good ones aren't rewarded and bad ones are rarely fired isn't even questioned. The latter part alone tells you it's a politcal patronage job.

But, again - it shouldn't be about "we can't afford it", or drumming up jealousy regarding what they're paid. We should pay what's fair, and if we can't come up with the money, then should be our problem, not theirs. But the evidence suggests that "what's fair" (which can only be determined by supply and demand) is WAY less than what they currently get.

247

_*ahem*

Before the election last November that swept Dims from many state Legislatures and replaced them with real, live conservatives (courtesy of the Tea Party) across this wonderful land of ours, how many Americans were aware of this growing problem? Did we hear as much about it on the evening news as we do today? Was there a public backlash against the racket of teachers' unions funding Dim candidates for office who then gave unions lavish salaries and benefits, a portion of which went right back to said Dims?

Is there a much greater public awareness of this situation today that there was even six months ago? Is there a higher probability of this problem getting fixed today than six months ago? Do we finally see conservative Republicans getting serious about fiscal matters?

I'd say we're starting to turn the tide in our favor, don't you think?

_{What's a henway? I know that's not relevant, but as long as I was asking questions, I'd thought I'd throw that one in there, too.}

248 :/>MISSTAMMY> RUNSOURCE SAMMICH EXP.300


Oh, MissTammy makes a damn fine sammich, and will happily bring it right to you with all the fixins up to and including ice-cold beer, provided certain basic needs of hers are met. If they are met multiple times, she will hand feed you, but be warned; she is a greedy little minx.

249 provided certain basic needs of hers are met. Oh, I know all about that... Pick up the kids Drop off the kids Help clean up every once in a while Pick up my clothes Help with dinner Help bathe the kids Take out the trash Get some tampons at the store No, not those tampon, the unscented ones Just let me get some time to myself for once Check the kids' homework Talk. To. Your. Son. Pay attention when I'm talking Call your mother back you know she doesn't like me

250

_{What's a henway? I know that's not relevant, but as long as I was asking questions, I'd thought I'd throw that one in there, too.}

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 04, 2011 04:17 PM (b6qrg)

 

My favorite setup joke.     Depends, about 3-1/2 to 5 lbs on average.

251 ""What's a henway? I know that's not relevant, but as long as I was asking questions, I'd thought I'd throw that one in there, too.""



Q-Whats the ideal weight for a lawyer?

A- 5lbs including the urn.

252

Optimizer [and fellow Knickerbocker] at 251: We should pay what's fair, and if we can't come up with the money, then should be our problem, not theirs. But the evidence suggests that "what's fair" (which can only be determined by supply and demand) is WAY less than what they currently get.

I'd say most teachers get exactly what's fair. Make two of school districts within a region: one rank-ordering quality of schools by comparable standards, the other by faculty pay. The lists will be almost identical.

Every now and then, you see one that's out of place -- maybe an average school district with way-above-average pay for its teachers. That's out of whack. And I'll bet you a dozen donuts that there's a lot of shenanigans there.

(Where, roughly, in NYS are you?)

253 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 04, 2011 04:27 PM (EpapN)

MissTammy is childless, I'm sure her mama would adore you because you'd treat her daughter so well, and MissTammy has never asked her husband to get anything of that nature for her....but yes, you will take out the trash, because I will ask you nicely to do so, and help cleaning up would not be necessary if we had a housekeeper.

Also, she finally realized after the first 5 years of cohabitation/marriage than mens' minds shut off after 10 or 15 seconds of  spousal speech, so she has learned to be succinct in her speech, if not her posts.

254

MissTammy,

Let me fill you in on a little secret!

The man's mind isn't shutting off after 10 or 15 seconds.....it's in defense mode.....and has told his mouth to stop all operation to protect the larger portions of the body. It kinda like the screen saver on your computer.

It is part of the "Fight or Flight" Mechanism

255 It is part of the "Fight or Flight" Mechanism

LOL! But seriously, I realized early on that I talk too much about things he isn't all that interested in. So now I save most of my venting/rambling for my girlfriends or mom.

256

@260

You can vent to him but when you do you have to stay on point. You can't let the conversation wander all over the place, like every other woman I know.

If you stay on topic, bypass all the flowery details, and ask specific and important questions.......You Know The Meat & Potatoes......I'm sure he will respond in kind!

 

257 Waiting for Superman.  Go rent it. 

258 You can't let the conversation wander all over the place....
bypass all the flowery details


Oh sure, take all the fun out of it....

I do get it, and that's what I try to do.

He doesn't mind hearing that a coworker is driving me insane because she globs on perfume. He very helpfully recommends that I either talk to her or the supervisor about it. At which point he assumes this particular conversation is over.

But me being female, I am just getting started; I don't want to get her in trouble, I just want to TALK about it with someone, in all the gory detail.....like how anyone could even LIKE that kind of perfume, how she complains when other people eat fish or onion-heavy food at their desks, but she herself gasses the entire floor out with her perfume...etc etc etc.

I have learned to recognize the glazed look in his eyes when I have wandered all over with flowery details....much like yourself, now, I'm sure!

259 253 :/>MISSTAMMY> RUNSOURCE SAMMICH EXP.300


Oh, MissTammy makes a damn fine sammich, and will happily bring it right to you with all the fixins up to and including ice-cold beer, provided certain basic needs of hers are met. If they are met multiple times, she will hand feed you, but be warned; she is a greedy little minx.

Posted by: MissTammy at March 04, 2011 04:17 PM (BebB7)

too bad I'm married.  I'd be stalking you like Rosie Odonnell on a baked ham.

260 Also, she finally realized after the first 5 years of cohabitation/marriage than mens' minds shut off after 10 or 15 seconds of spousal speech, so she has learned to be succinct in her speech, if not her posts.

Posted by: MissTammy at March 04, 2011 04:35 PM (BebB7)

Depends on what you're talking about.

261 Oh, and re: the topic: "What the fuck did I tell you, Randall?!?!"

Nobody *ever* listens.

262 My kid has been moving around schools - 3 in 2 years because the school system in Cali is so poor. Teachers buying school supplier? Guess what? At every school my kid attended, including the ethnic/poor school, the parents were given a list of supplies to donate. So that is bullshit. Plus school supplies at Wal Mart are so cheap, its not as if that's a major expense.

263 Tasty, tasty spam right above my comment, yum! Actually, don't feel bad about the teachers purchasing their own classroom supplies, they can deduct them from their taxes. So no big deal.