1 -1 -16 -57 -73 -85 -96 -109 -123 -138 -153

It's a meaningless plan.

2 Of course, there's no reason to believe that Republicans will not be blamed in whole or in part for this "Let it Burn" plan

Well, since Republicans are going to receive 100% of the blame anyway (and an inverse amount of the credit if 'calamity' is averted), I'm not seeing a downside, here.

Let's see: right thing to do?  Check.  Net negative to party? Nope.

Alright, let's shut it down.

3 Let me be clear:  If not now, when?  If not us, who? 

If you want to win the future, eat your apple slices.

4 Republican mouthpieces working overtime today to cover Boehner's retreat. Problem for Gabe and others is their credibility is shot, after CBO showed that Boehner's plan is much worse than Gabe et al would admit.

5 Small victories lead to larger victories.

Yeah, that's what we thought.

6

Boehner's plan is a victory for Obama.  It will not forestall a drop in the credit rating, and if it's Boehner's plan that is passed, Obama can pin the drop on the Republicans.

Boehner's plan helps Obama get reelected.

7
1 -1 -16 -57 -73 -85 -96 -109 -123 -138 -153

It's a meaningless plan.

Posted by: toby928™ at July 27, 2011 08:08 AM (GTbGH)

Worse - it's a joke and shows that Boehner doesn't know what he needs to do.  Spending now for cuts in out years - ridiculous. just whack 100B in spending right now and be done with it. move year 7 to year 1.

Ta daaa!

8

At best, the Republicans are build sandcastles as the tide comes in.

Any plan that doesn't cut 500B from next year's baseline budget is a joke.

9

Gabe, this grows tiresome.

When you decide to engage the math centers in your brain, maybe I'll read another one of your posts.  I am amazed that you engage in "range of options" analysis for Republicans....and do no such thing for the irresponsible brat in the White House and his Crapulus gang of thieves that got us into the final act of this mess.  The House needs to pass a bill--tell the President to take it or leave it and go home.

10 "Small victories lead to larger victories." should read: "Small victories lead to larger victories... for the Democrats." I'm getting very pessimistic. The small victories are kicking the can down the road and making the coming catastrophe that much worse. Restraining spending by $100 billion a year won't help and may make it worse. Let it burn.

11 While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner.

Honestly, Gabe, This is where you lose me.  We've been compromising getting rolled since the 1930s.  You need to, if you haven't already, post on why you think we're far enough away from the cliff to allow compromise that cuts only $7B (using the plans numbers from yesterday morning which you ardently backed) in spending from a budget that starts in the $3.7T range.  I can't speak for the entire "let it burn" crowd, but I suspect a large number of us are of the opinion that we're in the abyss and it's time to draw a real line.

You may disagree, and that's fine.  But thinking we're in the tank and the only things to do that will really be effective are real, substantial, and immediate cuts is neither cynical nor unprincipled.  10 year away, pixie dust and skittles cuts, ain't cuttin' it, IMO.

12 This kind of thinking is what, in the past, lead parents to sell their children into slavery for debts they incurred. "There was no other choice" Well, yes there is. Will it disrupt lives? Yes. Is it the right thing to do? Also, yes.

13 Posted by: alexthedude at July 27, 2011 08:15 AM (sUnsW)

Beyond that, it separates the Republicans from their base.  Any Tea Party Republican who votes for this is going to see support erode fairly quickly- since the Tea Party figured out this is exactly what the plan would be as soon as Boehner announced he had yet another one.

Hey, Republicans, here's a hint: "Accounting Tricks" includes cutting spending in "out years."

14 Amen.

You can not win a war in one battle. Attempting that may cost you everything we are fighting for.

Take the small victory and use our inability to get the best deal for our country, which was CCB, to change our Senate from a Democrat majority to Republican.

Get past the emotion. This is the smart move.

15 The logic of "they didn't accept our halfway-decent proposal, so now we must surrender" escapes me.  It seems like there's a pretty wide scope of actions we could take in between these two extremes.

The principal goal of Boehner's plan - like the 2010 budget - is to attempt to dupe the GOP base into believing there were cuts while kicking the can down the road again.  Ten year cuts and procedure reform gimmicks are worthless. 

The Democrats are bitching about it because they actually know how to negotiate - Boehner could offer Obama and every Dem their own solid gold toilet and they'd still say it was the worst deal they'd ever heard of.

16 It's better to do nothing and force the government to live within its means having hit the debt ceiling. Any raising of the debt ceiling merely delays inevitable confrontation with the country's spending problem. Spending is an addiction, going cold turkey is the only way it'll ever stop and get better.

Credit ratings are bullshit, everyone knows the debt service progression is unsustainable. Congress needs to stop bullshitting itself and accept that inventing more credit on paper isn't going to fix the very REAL debt problem if they keep on spending.

17 Here's what Boehner needs to get through his thick fucking skull:

We don't give a shit about cuts in 10 years.  We want cuts NOW.

18 In what sense is the current Boehner plan a victory, small or otherwise?  I really need this explained to me.

19 14...exactly right...and that's why I was so surprised and disappointed that Rep West came out in support so quickly.  He's obviously a principled guy, and even he didn't let the smoke clear and the mirrors shatter before jumping in.

And Eric Cantor should profusely apologize and flog himself in public for his Gabriel Malor-esq lecturing yesterday. 

Fred Thompson, no soup for you.

Yuval Levin, time for time out.

20 While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner. I've defended you in the past. Not going to any more. Fuck that. What you and the other politigroupies can't wrap your math-challenged minds around is the fact that there is going to be a massive correction. Saying the path we're on is "unsustainable" is nothing more than a catchphrase for you. For those who can add and subtract, we're fucking amazed that you can look at a plan that doesn't actually cut anything and call it a win. It doesn't matter what fucking baseline is used. In the real world, the baseline is zero. When you continually spend more than you take in, eventually banks will stop lending you money. I work with credit reports and Income Statements daily. It's easy to tell when a business is circling the drain. You suck at math and you're too in love with the political intrigue, like it's the point of this whole debate. It doesn't fucking matter what gets passed, because by the very nature of our system, anything palatable enough to get through both chambers and the WH will be completely useless. The real battle is positioning yourself as serious and competent for when the eventual crash comes, so the people know whom to look to for leadership. It aint you and your buddies.

21 Ryan is that you ?

22 Get past the emotion. This is the smart move.

Emotion has little to do with it.  And, no, it isn't the smart move.  We don't have 10 years to get spending under control, and if the House can't show some intestinal fortitude now, why should I expect them to even if we give them a majority in the Senate and the WH in 13?

If they're too scared to use the mandate (yes, it was one) they were given in November, why should I believe they'll use one we give them in '12?

No, it's time to put-up or shut-up, and if they can't do it, we'll go down fighting, but I refuse to go down in mediocrity with "the best we can do."

23
Hey, Republicans, here's a hint: "Accounting Tricks" includes cutting spending in "out years."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 27, 2011 08:17 AM (KxyHe)

All to placate muddle-headed thinking like Gabe's.  They are playing the opponent's game-style and getting rolled, and why? They don't want to ask for real cuts?  There are unpopular stimulus, bailout, and healthcare bills out there with literally hundreds of billions dollars of spending attached and the GOP leadership won't go after it.

Retarded.

And they should be asking for a real tax cut as well to increase revenue to the treasury in out years via economic growth.  I mean, Obama is taunting the GOP by talking about revenue instead of rates, but the GOP won't step up and grab the opportunity presented to them by the Laffer Curve because they are so used to being the catcher.  It's sickening.

Boehner needs to resign.

24 Paul Ryan, stteeeeeerrrriiiikk 3....or is it 4?

Seriously, for an economic genius and fiscal hawk, dude sure steps in it a lot.

25 at July 27, 2011 08:28 AM (IhHdM)

Don't do that... you're going to break the blog.

26

Posted by: Mr. Slave at July 27, 2011 08:28 AM (LK0O9)

Hey, shithook, on topic.

27 The Boehner plan has no chance of forestalling a downgrade anyway. The insignificant cuts aren't going to stop the red ink or even slow it significantly, and the rating agencies have said that the debt limit isn't the real problem, it's the spending that keeps forcing the debt limit higher.

Just drop a 5% cut across the board on spending immediately.  That's the only kind of stopgap measure that will have any effect.

28

If nothing else, Boehner has proven his incompetence. 

By putting out a plan so laughable that it has to be immediately rewritten, he has completely killed his credibility, and he's eliminated any momentum the GOP may have had. 

Apparently, weasel McConnel might be the smartest guy in the GOP.  I'm starting to think letting the Democrats own this mess (and the ratings downgrade) would have been the best choice. 

No matter what "compromise" plan we come up, bond buyers everywhere know that we are in no way, shape, or form serious about getting our house in order.  Higher interest rates on the way soon.

29

There is no question that both sides in the debt ceiling/debt reduction debate are using this flailex as a political lever.  But to have Obama, the leftists in congress and the entire MFM come out and bald faced call out the right and accuse them of going so far as praying for down grading and default for political ends is so incredibly and insultingly dishonest.  The right does have in their possession the wherewithal by way of mechanized propaganda to successfully pull this off.   I resent either side using this critical issue as a political lever, but the duplicity of the president and the left in their hypocritical use of it is especially disgusting, imo.

30 The reality is this and please correct me if I'm wrong. Should JB come up with a weak and ineffective package that "includes" tax cuts, who is going to take the fall when the credit ratings are downgraded? A waste of text in typing that being everyone knows the answer, the key line in that paragraph is "weak and ineffective" being that is the only thing the Democrats will accept. Now I am sure that the Republicans are going to take a publicity hit no matter what they do, I would much rather them take that hit for standing on principal to continue the serious matter of what we are facing, succumbing to the same old, same old crowd will win them nothing and it shouldn't.

31 "While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner." I thought we were trying to improve peoples lives and livelihoods? Whose livelihoods are affected? In most states and the federal Gov., hundreds of thousands of "Workers" need to be shown the door. Take the power away from a centralized socialist Gov. That's the whole point of this exercise. What's cynical and unprincipled about voting in people to shut down this crime syndicate we call the Federal Gov. Seems to me it's the most principled thing we do as Americans? Economic Armageddon? Really? That is preordained, it's coming no matter what we do. The only difference is to what degree will the pain be felt. Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush(es), Clinton, and Obama all did shit to cause our current problem. They did it because it was the easiest thing to do. They did it because when times in history offered themselves up to do the right thing, they did the easiest, most "Humane" thing. Its time to do the right thing, take the money we give them and force them prioritize it. No more printing, no more borrowing.

32 I'm starting to think letting the Democrats own this mess (and the ratings downgrade) would have been the best choice.

Except that they wouldn't.  The Press would take great delight in pointing out the fact that the "Republican Controlled House" allowed the President that unilateral authority.

So they'd still lose the PR battle (which they'll lose no matter what) and would have lost the one bargaining chip we actually had.  So... no.  It was never the best choice, and it still isn't the best choice.

33 boehner needs to walk away and walk away fast.  these are not cuts, and anyone who has looked at numbers would know that.

34

-1 -16 -57 -73 -85 -96 -109 -123 -138 -153



Just wanted to repeat that to showcase Gabe's ass-covering (for once) mendacity.

In case you didn't know, sweetheart, those are the BILLIONS in reductions to the MULTI-TRILLION budget each and every year.

Wooo-ho_ooo....

35 You know, I heard the same tired arguments and saw people called the same names over the CR, and they were told to keep their powder dry for the big fight over the debt ceiling. Now, once again, I see conservatives told to shut the fuck up because they have to wait. And this time, even though this is clearly Boehner's Fu Kip (damn you autocorrect!) once again it is conservatives who are to blame. Its because of the baseline that the plan scored at 1B? No, it's because the attempt was weak to begin with. One billion or seven, still rounds to zero out of 3.8T. Boehner's could get 187B out of FY 11 by taking back the extra TARP funds. People hate TARP. Not spending money that doesn't need to be spent and we don't have anyway is a no-brainer that will have lots of public support. Not to mention it will take that money out of the Democrat war chest. Hell, Boehner's plan doesn't even get that much ten years out.

36 “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure,” he said. “It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.”

Senator Barack H. Obama -- March 2006

37 The real battle is positioning yourself as serious and competent for when the eventual crash comes, so the people know whom to look to for leadership.

It aint you and your buddies. Posted by: Empire of Jeff
..........
What a load of bullshit.  That attitude only works IF a crash is coming.. and coming right soon.

If this shit goes on for ten years.. twenty years even.. your crash and burn strategy fucks the GOP well into the future.  And worse, we get another 4 years of JEF.. probably a Senate that remains Dem and losses in the House.  Well, ya know what?  Fuck you. I don't want another four years of that jug eared fuck.

We take the best deal we can now and beat him next year.. when we get the power back we put things to rights.

38


Why can't gay Republicans be more like the Sacred Band of Thebes instead of wishy-washy queer stereotypes?

Gabe, Lindsay, show some fucking resolve and courage!

39 Posted by: hobgoblin at July 27, 2011 08:34 AM (SeM05)

Wow, a veiled reference to homosexuality (sweetheart!). And you used a thesaurus too (mendacity).

How very clever.

40 If president ultra-leftwinger nut job chomsky-Chavez-Obozo and his ass-sniffing media assholes do not get their precious tax hikes - that is a victory for the republcians.

41

Yeah, I'm all for what Gabe says.  Then in 2012, the Republican House can say:

"Elect more of us because we cut one and one half billion dollars over two years from budgets totaling seven point eight trillion!  We promise to redouble our efforts to cut a whole billion each year from the Federal budget.  At this pace, all you need to do is keep us in power for the next 1450 years and the budget will be balanced!"

Yeah, I'm totaly buying that line.  I just don't see how they could cut more than 0.02% of spending.

42 Hahaha #44 hobgoblin, that was some funny shit right there.

43 Since Boehner seems earnest, I can only conclude he is incompetent.

44 Jerry you can't have it both ways. Not raising the debt ceiling, if it doesn't lead to e crash, can't cut against the Republicans. Puts the lie to the whole game.

45 That is the strategy that the purists are suggesting now.

Not correct.  Purist want the debt ceiling LOWERED.

46


you're internally inconsistent, Jerry.

if we end up with:

 another four years of that jug eared fuck.

then this shit will NEVER:

go[] on for ten years.. twenty years even

Guaran-damn-teed.  If BHO is reelected, America won't see 2020 in that same form as we know it now, even.

47

Posted by: hobgoblin at July 27, 2011 08:38 AM (SeM05)

you should see the gay conservatives around here. sure, some are dragqueens (though really cool ones) but for the most part they're pretty much militant conservatives in that if you call them fakes, they'll put your head through a car window (saw them do it once)

48 That is the strategy that the purists are suggesting now. Not correct. Purist want the debt ceiling LOWERED. If I were drunk right now i'd be hanging on your shoulder slurring "I LOVE YOU MAN" Your exactly right.

49

I'm sorry, NJC, it wasn't meant to be veiled in the least. Tell you what though, when I actually need to use a thesaurus for a word like mendacity, I'll let you suck me off for free.

50 Jerry you can't have it both ways. Not raising the debt ceiling, if it doesn't lead to e crash, can't cut against the Republicans. Puts the lie to the whole game.

+2^16

Either we're headed for collapse or we're not.

In the first case, moral courage (shown by refusing to raise the debt ceiling) is necessary so we can know who has the character necessary to lead us out of the proverbial wilderness.

In the second, moral courage (shown the same way) is necessary to prove the Democrats are lying about the state of the economy and the Governments role within it.

In either case, the correct thing to do is refrain from raising the debt limit.

51


Dude, I've been here longer than Gabe.

52 Jerry you can't have it both ways. Not raising the debt ceiling, if it doesn't lead to e crash, can't cut against the Republicans. Puts the lie to the whole game. Posted by: blaster
...........
But it will.  We have only had a couple government shutdowns in recent memory.. was '95 & '96? well.. the 96 fiscal year, I think.  And the Repubs took it on the chin for that.

You guys seem to think shutting down the government only means not servicing our debt.  Sure, if we prioritize we can service that debt.. but we'll likely lose our AAA rating.

But without the debt ceiling raised, we basically shut down a good portion of our government.

How many months are you willing to go?  You willing to cut military pay?  How long are you willing to put up with the news stories of the military wife at home with 3 kids with no money while her husband is fighting in Afghanistan?  Huh?  I can see the ABC nightly news series..a whole week or two covering the misery, with tears flowing from wives and kids, and old people.

Nice.. real nice.. then let's see how many seats we can pick up in the Senate next year. 

53

Control the message.  That is the goal.  And the right has two hands tied behind its back by way of ObamaÂ’s bully pulpit and the MFM propaganda apparatus, and one leg hamstrung by way of the professional “elder” politicians on the right who just want the game perpetuated.  IMO, the right will emerge from this covered head to toe in the blame for this and in the end, the country will lose because the left, as usual, will control the message because the right will not do what is necessary to even take to the field.

54 What the fock is wrong when the head of our own party can't designa a bill that is within 33% of what he says it does? He claimed 1.2T and oh gosh darn it turns out it's really only 800b. WTF dude. THAT IS YOUR GD JOB! NOT ANOTHER DIME! All these bullshit fake cuts are nothing but reductions in the projected growth rate of government. We can't grow it slower we must shrink it.

55 Purists insist that the Cut, Cap, and Balance plan that passed the House (thank you, Speaker Boehner) is still viable, though Reid shot it down in the Senate, but there is no reason to believe that is the case. The Senate won't vote for it and the President won't sign it.

Then it's doom. The GOP is going to be blamed by the Do-Nothings for the economic collapse anyway. There's nothing that can be done about that. The GOP needed to do a better job all along of letting everyone know they were the only people doing "anything" and they failed. Now the papers will be filled of pictures like that on the front page of the Star Trib (MSP Democrat house propaganda piece) today - little weeping kids holding "Please Don't Destroy The American Dream" and "Please Don't Destroy Medicare and Social Security" signs.

Once again The Party of Stupid^TM attempts to play honorably and honestly and loses wholesale to The Party of Evil^TM.

The GOP is going to lose anyway. At this point the only thing they have left is principle. Boehner's continued insistence on debating with himself only makes him look like he doesn't believe on the original plans and budgets the House passed and the Senate has yet to even debate.

Meanwhile, President Cloward-Piven prepares the next phase of his plan - remaking this den of "racism" and "inequity" into a marxist utopia in the model of Cuba and the DPRK.

56 Posted by: hobgoblin at July 27, 2011 08:44 AM (SeM05)

Ah, so now you are suggesting that I am gay. I guess this kind of stuff worked in 8th grade, but it doesn't work among adults.

Gabe is gay. You seem to think that his sexuality is influencing his political opinions and his analysis of the current budget impasse. That makes you quite stupid. But then...I knew that already.

57

What a load of bullshit.  That attitude only works IF a crash is coming.. and coming right soon.

If this shit goes on for ten years.. twenty years even.. your crash and burn strategy fucks the GOP well into the future.

Are you guys listening to yourselves?  Or just using whatever form of the force that people who can't do math use?

The number of crashes predicted in advance?  Zero.

However, all crash ingredients already present?  Yes.

So it makes perfect sense to act as if every thing is just fine and empowering this incompetent preening twit of a President to do a victory lap is the height of political genius.  Got it. 

58 But it will.  We have only had a couple government shutdowns in recent memory.. was '95 & '96? well.. the 96 fiscal year, I think.  And the Repubs took it on the chin for that.

Yeah, and the English lost the Revolutionary war.  Therefore, they will lose all other wars in the future.

You willing to cut military pay?  How long are you willing to put up with the news stories of the military wife at home with 3 kids with no money while her husband is fighting in Afghanistan?

Military pay won't get cut.  Somebody sane still exists in Washington, and what they will realize is that bad things happen when you don't give heavily-armed people the money you said you'd pay them.

59

The President wants to pound America in the pusillanimous.

NOW THAT'S JUST PLAIN FALSE!

60 Imagine my relief when I saw ChiTownJerkoff's signature below that rickety line of monkeyshit nonreasoning. Yeah, there's no correction coming, dimbulb. Other countries will continue to loan us money, even though we can't pay it back. But don't worry, by THAT time, that's when conservative heroes like you will really kick it into cutting mode, right? Suck a fat pony's dick, idiot. And when you're done, ask Mom to get out the math flash cards. You need the practice.

61 Republicans would have a chance for a large victory if they would just play hardball with the Dems instead of squeaking in fear of a so called "default."

62 Dude, I've been here longer than Gabe. You know, every fucking time one of these rons starts commenting on "How long I have been here posting," It takes me back to my days working working in a union factory. Every time you call out some useless fuck for screwing up or was lazy and wouldn't do their job, it's their first defense mechanism. "Fuck you!, I have been here (X) number of years, I built this company ETC ETC......" just a thought.

63 Posted by: hobgoblin at July 27, 2011 08:45 AM (SeM05)

This isn't a union. Your seniority doesn't mean much, especially when you are such an asshole.

64 You guys seem to think shutting down the government only means not servicing our debt.  Sure, if we prioritize we can service that debt.. but we'll likely lose our AAA rating.

You complete, f-ing, moron (not in a good way).  We're "likley [to] lose our AAA rating" anyway.  Look at the actual words the ratings agencies are using.  They don't just want the limit raised (well, maybe Moody's, but I think they've even figured out that dog won't hunt), they want a serious plan to reduce debt.  Nothing on the table does that.

There may be reasons to give up on our principles and concede to a debt limit increase without real and substantial cuts, but preserving our AAA rating isn't one- because that would have exactly the opposite effect.

Every single one of us in the "purity brigade" knows that this will suck.  Most of us will be affected (with no more than 1 level of separation) by the drastic, draconian cuts that would be required to keep the government functioning without incurring any additional debt.  We're willing to make that sacrifice because it's the right thing to do.  Because I refuse to give my children a country which is insolvent, if I can avoid it.

65

Republicans have the opportunity for a small victory here. They get to moderately restrain spending, put the President in the hot seat, and lay the ground work for a Balanced Budget Amendment vote.

It'll never work.  We're doomed!

66 #23 Chi-Town Jerry Sir, are you listening to yourself.In theory that sounds well and good, it really does. In reality it divides the party because it is glaringly obvious that they do not have the political willpower to pull the trigger on the hard and tough choices that risk "their" future. I think that many if not most of the people feel that if by some long shot, the Republicans took the presidency, the senate and retained the house that there is a zero chance of them making those same hard choices. And guess what, within a year of whoever wins the 2012 elections there will be yet another "need" for a debt ceiling increase.At that point, the bloom will really come off the rose should the Republican's control it all. The 2.4 trillion of the current debt ceiling is being spent on things that we're promised.............Obamacare should get their initial funding for the foundation for yet another pillar of entitlements with some of that cash. These Republican leaders will not, WILL NOT go balls to the wall at anytime if they don't do it now if the perpetual reasoning of retaining power is always there for their out, excuse.I know it seems like a catch 22 but they put in for the jobs in promising to get this garbage under control.....So do it.

67 Gabe this is so not a "purist" issue. It is no longer a political issue. It is a survival issue. I am simply astounded at people who can not see what is happening.

We can no longer sell out debt to other nations. We are simply printing money and borrowing it from the treasury and calling in "Quantitative Easing". Real inflation rates are running on the order of 10% now due to debasement of the currency.

If we do NOT get control of spending NOW in a serious way this will continue. We will get another round of QE when they run out of money because nobody will buy the T-Bills at zero rate.

It will not take much more of that before hyper inflation results. No government in the past has ever survived hyper inflation and sometimes the nation did not survive it.

The first sign that official doom is upon us is the explosive growth of a barter economy. And as I said yesterday which sparked a flame war. Currently I don't see a solution. The communists will not support anything and a major potion of the Republican Party still thinks this is a political game to see who can win seats in purple States.

Gabe I include you in that category, sorry but that is it.

68 While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner.

Standing on principle is unprincipled?

No deals - we have no more money to throw away.

Leave the debt limit where it is - the federal government doesn't need more money then it has now, and this is the best way to rein it in.

69

While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner.

That is precisely what you are doing--you and the other GOP stooges who insist that we must keep borrowing. You are putting my life and fortune, and the lives and fortunes of my children, at serious peril.  All because you lack the stones to do the right thing. So f*ck you and the sanctimonious pony you rode in on. Loser.

70 Jerry how many months do you think it will take? Compromise takes more than one participant. For all the Boehner's plan is the only game in town talk it too is not passable. It is a big nothing for Republicans so it can't get out of the House. The President says he's gonna veto it. So what's left? President won't even discuss Reids plan. Sometimes you have to call bluffs. Besides Moody's and s&p are going to downgrade the rating either way they have both said that the US has to deal with it's deficits in a way that neither party will do so doesn't matter on that front. There is no deal in the offing that can avoid the downgrade if the ratings agencies are not themselves bluffing.

71 IMO, there is something in the background of this entire situation that smells way funny.  If this is such a critical issue for this country and if it isn't resolved it could lead to the collapse of the economic system, there is no way that this would be playing out the way it is.  No.  There is something else in play here.  Something that the leaders of both sides (at the very least) know about but the public is being kept in the dark about.  We're being played here.  How convenient is this to take a controversy like 'gun runner' off of the front pages at just the right time?  How convenient is it for the elders in the Republican party to emerge on top after the Tea Party players absconded with their power?

No.  There is more to this story than meets the eye and we're all being played like a cheap fiddle.

72 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 27, 2011 08:25 AM (KxyHe)

Live to fight another day when your forces are stronger or commit suicide by getting close to zero out of a deal?

Yeah. Let me think about that one for a minute.

73

This bill is but a small start, a single step on a long journey. Most of the cuts are a long way down the road, and most likely will be changed or eliminated in the future.

We needs cuts NOW. Starting 10/1/11 in  the new fiscal year, cut spending immediately. Start with the last GAO waste report and eliminate all of it. Get the report on federal bureau redundancy and eliminate all the duplication it found. Audit the defense department budget and eliminate wastes and find the "lost" billions!

Then look for more cuts for the 2012 year. After that you can turn loose your committee to reduce spending over the next ten years.

Anything else is just postponing the DOOM.  

74 yeah, whatever.. fine.. shut it down..

Let's see how that works out for the party and the country..

75 Watch this...I just sit back while Boehner squirms, and bids against himself.  With every new bid, he gets much closer to me.  Its a beautiful thing.  See if you can get me a tee time at Congressional, will you?  This will be over by Sunday.

76

No, NJC, it's not just name calling.  It's a very noticeable trait not only among Gabe, but also the gay "Republicans" in my circle of acquaintances--they all want to "accommodate" and be "realistic."  In other words, they want to fold like a cheap suit.

It's either a defect of character common to these four men randomly (not to mention Sen. Lindsay) or something that stems from their world-outlook. 

Sure, ragging on you is a cheap insult, but last I recall, that's one thing that happens here with some regularity (now decreasing, in the age of self-thought-policing).  But really, why is it that this contingent of "republicans"--who claim to be "rock ribbed fiscal conservatives"-- are so pusillanimous (to use the word of the day from Mr Slave) every time push comes to shove?

Can you BE a gay conservative?  Is there some sort of psychological barrier to being disciplined and gay at the same time (I doubt that's the case, since more gay dudes have six packs than I have back hairs)?

What's going on?  At least the dudes at HillBuzz stick to their guns, even if they're libs.

77 For my next trick, I'll come up with a plan that projects hope and change 30 years out, and  Congress, the CBO, and the American people will lap that shit up because they're too stupid to put a 4 year term limit or term of service limit on financial projection plans. 

For a politician, a ten year projection should be criminal.

78 The more details that come out about this plan, especially the off-the-record, background stuff that RedState is posting, reveals that, more and more, this plan is a big, stinking pile of shit that cuts nothing, saves nothing, does nothing but gives the JEF everything he wants and guarantees any blame will fall on the GOP.

There is no silver-lining on this shit-storm.

79

There is something else in play here.  Something that the leaders of both sides (at the very least) know about but the public is being kept in the dark about. 

There is no conspiracy, there are no black helicopters ferrying gold to the Trilateral Commission.

It's politics, plain and simple.  The Dems are convinced the public is on their side.  The Republicans are dealing in reality.

Of course, how you explain Medicare Part D and every other Republican expansion of government...I don't know.

80 Gabe, see post 40...great point and question.  Where were you on the CR battle in April?  Small victories speech, perhaps?

81 Posted by: Marcus at July 27, 2011 08:57 AM (CHrmZ)

Fight?  Really?  They would?  Because they have fought over actual spending issues in at least 30 years.  No!  Longer.  They haven't fought over actual spending issues in at least 34 years- and probably not for 60+.

Get that through your head: for all the promises, all the "keep your powder dry", all the "but we'll lose seats," the Republicans have never- not once- supported anything that actually cut spending and reduced the size of Government since before I was alive.

So, you'll excuse me if I no longer believe their words, but only their actions.  If they want me to believe these fresh words about how they'll fix it "when we have the majority" they'll have to show me the gumption to stand on principle while in the minority.

82 Feel free to correct me, I'm just thinking out loud here.

Obama will NOT offer a plan because his plan is to keep insisting the Republicans "compromise" by constantly modifying their plans in his direction. Eventually they'll do what Rs always do and come up with something that Obama will sign. At that point, two possible results:

Americans like the plan = Obama takes credit for talking the Rs into something "reasonable." O wins.

Americans dislike the plan = Obama blames the Rs since it was their plan. O wins.

The way Boehner is playing it now, it's a win-win for Obama no matter what. No "small victories" here. Only win after win for Obama. Rs will be made to look bad - yet again - no matter what, the way they are playing this.

If Rs had balls they'd withdraw all plans and stop planning. They'd insist the plan that lies dead in the Senate is the only plan they'll offer, take it or leave it, because that's the plan Americans actually understand and want.

That would put O and the Senate Dems back in the bullseye, alone, until their either sign on to it or don't. If they don't sign on, blame for whatever happens is on them. If they do sign on, Obama can't possibly take credit because everyone knows it was the Rs plan and his base will hate him for not vetoing it.

Win-win for Rs.

If they had balls.

I'm not particularly smart but if even I can figure that out, I know the Rs have already considered it.

Am I missing anything?

83 Posted by: Empire of Jeff, EXXXTREME KKKONSERVATIVE at July 27, 2011 08:53 AM (lbo6/)

This is actually the crux of the problem. You and I and many around here believe that a nasty, game-changing correction (euphemism for total fucking catastrophe) is coming. Some people seem to think that everything will just tool along at the same lazy clip of the last few years.

They are delusional; we are not.

84


Live to fight another day when your forces are stronger or commit suicide by getting close to zero out of a deal?


don't you guys realize that we aren't going to have a country in a few years, or the means to fight to get it back?

Some people are looking at things not from the lens of party, but from real fucking life.  It is the fool and coward who says, "Let this travail pass over me and onto my children."  We damn well let it fall while there are enough of us to make a good life for everyone the next time we try a republic.

85 FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG! FAG!

86 Posted by: Mr. Slave at July 27, 2011 09:03 AM (LK0O9)

Hey! It's not plastic!

87

You're looking at it wrong.

None, repeat NONE, of these pukes actually want to cut anything.  They just want to look like they are.

We did not get where we are by the actions of Democrats alone.  The new TEA reps are getting rolled now, but after one term in office they won't need to be rolled....they'll be with the program.

88 DOOM! Thread up.

89

Hey! It's not plastic!


No shit you're not.  Plastic doesn't bend under the lightest pressure. 

90 In a vacuum, why I prefer not raising the debt limit: 1. I have no faith in the GOP leadership. It may seem like they play Charlie Brown to the democrat party's Lucy, but they give me good reason to suspect that the GOP and the democrat party are together playing Lucy with us taxpayers as Charlie Brown. 2. I cannot understand how budget-plus-TARP/Porkulus has become the new baseline. Where in the hell is all that money going? Did entitlements grow that fast? If so, how much of that is fraud? 3. If the debt ceiling is not raised, then the executive branch can spend some time jumping through their assholes to avoid default. It's about time these shiftless, lazyass Obama minions start earning at least some of their paychecks and whatever graft they're sucking up via their shameless abuse of power. 4. In the remote event that not raising the limit precipitates a collapse, the places hardest hit will be the places where rates of dependency are highest. These blue stains on the electoral map got us here, and there is a shitload of justice built into the natural correction that will happen when the misguided progressive interference propping up these shitholes is lifted. Before anyone throws the race card over my #4, consider this: It wasn't only 13% of the electorate that gave Obama 52% of the popular vote. While organizing my office over the weekend, I came across my last SSA summary, and I looked at the AGIs listed (roughly the Medicare taxable column). I've been carrying deadweight deadbeats for thirty years--substantially so for the last twenty-five. Faced with the prospect of thirty more years of progressively harder work for a smaller share of the fruits of that labor, I'd just as soon roll the dice.

91 I gotta say there's something wrong with your assessment of the situation, Gabe.  I'm a pragmatist, not a purist.  A lot of us pragmatists want the GOP to take a much harder line on their negotiations.  Labeling people (incorrectly) is not very helpful. 

92 I thought this was the DOOM thread. Anything involving Boehner is DOOMulous.

93 Not purist, it just the right thing to do. Look to don't cave, fast and furious coming to your T.V. soon, I am sure their is lot we don't know about yet and it will be good leverage. Fight dirty they do and will.

94 Posted by: hobgoblin at July 27, 2011 08:38 AM (SeM05)

STFU you unoriginal twit.

95 83 yeah, whatever.. fine.. shut it down.. Let's see how that works out for the party and the country.. Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 27, 2011 08:57 AM (Wm4Mf) See, the problem right there is that what's best for the party doesn't frequently coincide with what's best for the country. If nothing else, W's presidency should have taught us that.

96 If the Boehner plan gets passed and our credit rating is dropped then the GOP will be blamed for the rating drop (despite Democrats running up the debt). On the other hand we really can't do anything about this - the GOP will be blamed for anything negative that happens. Also, the Boehner plan and every plan bases itself off of the new insane Democrat created baseline of spending. Maybe this isn't the exact time or mechanism to reverse course - but when the hell is? We're careening towards the cliff. This whole process is sapping any hope I had of reversing course. The way this argument is framed and the way the GOP is allowing it to be framed (e.g., regarding the baseline of spending) basically means the Democrats have won and we're totally screwed. We spend all this time and energy, Sturm und Drang arguing about things that won't make a damned bit of difference.

97

If the Government shuts down, the interest on the debt will still get paid, as will other vital obligations, and so will SS.

And believe me, the military will get their paychecks, well at least the USMC will. No one wants to face a pissed off motivated Marine.

98 92 Am I missing anything?

Posted by: THE PLAN at July 27, 2011 09:05 AM (B60j2)

Nope. Precisely.

NO matter what, the R's lose. And so does the country.

99 -1 -16 -57 -73 -85 -96 -109 -123 -138 -153
It's a meaningless plan.

Yeah, I'd like to see the projected deficit and debt for those years instead of "cuts". Given the way Washington usually works, I suspect that the whole thing is a fraud from the word go.

100

We are at the point where nothing less than the serious reduction of spending is serious. The Democrats want additional spending.That means additional borrowing (raising the debt ceiling) or additional taxes or a combination of both. Any cuts in spending are defered into the future.  King Putt  wants the debt ceiling raised to cover himself past 2013.

There is the Reid 'Count the imaginary money we save by not spending on wars against Canada, Poland and Morocco" Plan

There is the Simpson Commission Plan.

There are two conservative positions: Cut Cap and Balance. And Hold the Ceiling (No on raising).  

There is the Ryan Plan.

There are Multiple RINO positions: The Gang of Six, the McConnell Go to Hell Plan, and now the Boner "This is What the Democrats Want, but not Sir Puttsalot" Plan. 

 Let's make this binary: Which proposals are serious and which are unserious?

A plan that is politically doable but doesn't deal with the MATH is unserious.

A plan that still ends up in default is unserious. 

It's the MATH, STUPID. It's the SPENDING.

Its' that simple. There is no fancy politicking.   

Everything else is a fantasy that if we just borrow a little more, tax a little more to spend a whole lot more that we can get out of the hole we're in.     

Pass that along to Bernanke and Geitner with their QE I, II, III, and IV.

 

 

 

 

101 NO matter what, the R's lose. And so does the country.

Not if we win the White House. 

People are conditioned to hate Congress no matter who's in charge.  I don't think that translates to voting booth actions. 

To me the best strategy at this point is to go with a shorter-term plan so that there are real cuts right away instead of this back-loaded ten year bull hockey... because we cannot possibly pass a good 10-year plan right now with Obama in the WH and the Senate controlled by the Democrats.  But we might be able to induce a couple of Senate Democrats to sign on to a two year emergency spending plan. 

102 Why do I feel that Boehner and Obama are playing the good cop-bad cop routine on us?

103 "And leveraging the threat of economic calamity isn't changing that." We're already very likely to lose our AAA rating. The President has told banks that we will not default. The drop-dead date, as you note, is suspiciously arbitrary. All in all, the scope of this resulting "economic calamity" is steadily shrinking, which makes the threat less and less effective.

104 NO matter what, the R's lose. And so does the country.

Not if we win the White House.
Posted by: Y-not, pragmatist at July 27, 2011 09:36 AM (5H6zj)

Given what happened circa 2001-2009, how can you possibly post that with a straight face?

105 115--pretty sure she snickered as she hit Post.

106 Republicans have the opportunity for a small victory here. They get to moderately restrain spending,


Here's how Boehner moderately restrained Social Security spending in Tuesday's bill:

fiscal year 2012, $623,000,000
fiscal year 2013, $751,000,000
fiscal year 2014, $924,000,000
fiscal year 2015, $1,123,000,000
fiscal year 2016, $1,166,000,000
fiscal year 2017, $1,309,000,000
in additional new budget authority.

20% yearly growth up front is the new restrained.

107 We have only had a couple government shutdowns in recent memory.. was '95 & '96? well.. the 96 fiscal year, I think.  And the Repubs took it on the chin for that.

Can we put this to rest?

Senate 95-97  52 Republicans  97-99 55  99-2001  55

US House  95-97  230 Republicans  97-99  226  99-2001  223

108 Link

dammit

109

This thing was total nonsense.

Purists insist that the Cut, Cap, and Balance plan that passed the House (thank you, Speaker Boehner) is still viable, though Reid shot it down in the Senate, but there is no reason to believe that is the case. The Senate won't vote for it and the President won't sign it. And leveraging the threat of economic calamity isn't changing that.

So this implies that the Boehner plan, unlike CCB, WILL manage to pass. Did you miss Reid and O yesterday? One directly said it would be DOA and the other let it leak that he would veto it? So your big complaint about CCB exists with this far inferior plan. Strike one.

What might change that particular stalemate would be to push past the August 2 deadline, let our AAA rating be lost, let federal disbursements be disrupted, and use the actual economic calamity as leverage for CCB and the Balanced Budget Amendment. That is the strategy that the purists are suggesting now.

Now it's implied that the AAA rating will somehow be saved if we make a deal before August 2nd. Again, have you missed the news? This small time deal will do nothing to save the rating. So the economic calamity you fear from hitting the ceiling w/o a deal...well, it's coming w/ a deal as well. Strike two.

Of course, there's no reason to believe that Republicans will not be blamed in whole or in part for this "Let it Burn" plan and it has the smell of desperation about it.

The Rs will be blamed no matter what happens. Because the AAA is going to be lost, that blame is already coming. So what's the worry? I mean, if you are concerned hitting the ceiling will cause the Rs to take the heat, don't worry, because thats going to happen even if a deal is struck because that AAA rating is going down the tubes regardless. Strike three

While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner.

So you're admitting that you've bought into the Obama spin machine. That hitting the ceiling is going to cause the entire universe to implode. Got it. Strike four.

So, for the love of Pete, can we please concentrate on getting there? Say, perhaps, by racking up some victories against President Obama?

After just deriding me and others like me by continually using the word "purist" as some sort of curse, you then ask me to work together and concentrate on beating Obama. Hilarious. Next time when you plan on asking folks to work together, you might want to do so w/o mocking them at the same time. Food for thought.

110

Can we put this to rest?

Senate 95-97  52 Republicans  97-99 55  99-2001  55

US House  95-97  230 Republicans  97-99  226  99-2001  223

--------

No, see the, what should I call them, anti-purists have it in their heads that shutting the govt. down will absolutely doom the Rs from now untill forever. So you can't actually post the fact that they didn't get killed in the following election because it toally ruins their completely valid point.

111 Between DeMint and Boehner? I'd rather have it between Rand Paul and Boehner - that should get us almost to DeMint's position - maybe to the right of it.

112 But, if Romney (left of GWB) wins, we will get worse than we had in 2000-2006 - the GOP and the country will be royally screwed.

113 his "Let it Burn" plan and it has the smell of desperation about it.

Have you checked the debt to GDP ratio lately?

It's at 95%.

The situation is, in fact, desperate. We either cut spending NOW or entire a debt spiral that can't be escaped.

While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner.

Who? The people, like Boehner, who are presenting more phony kick-the-can-down-the-road plans that lead us to assured destruction?

Oh ... you meant the people who think that  borrowing 40% of what we spend can't be sustained any longer and want to put stop to it NOW before it ruins us.

Those people?

Yeah. Funny how the people who understand that spending almost twice your income must be stopped at any cost are now the radicals.

Up is down. Down is up. And we are well and truly fucked.

114 Of course, there's no reason to believe that Republicans will not be blamed in whole or in part for this "Let it Burn" plan and it has the smell of desperation about it. While it may be fun to imagine using economic Armageddon to get everything we want without having to compromise on anything, they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods in a particularly cynical and unprincipled manner.

I don't think so.

Remember?

Cut, Cap, and Balance is supported by 2/3 of the American public.

115 During TARP we were told, we must do something now! or else it will all fall apart.  TARP made things worse.  During the Stimulus debate we were told we must do something now! and it made things worse.  During the healthcare debate we were told we must do something now! (Although most people did not buy this time) and it made things worse.

Doing nothing is an option.  Sometimes immediate pain is necessary to mitigate long-term damage.  Acting hastily will at best delay the day of reckoning for a bit.  At worst it will cause additional pain when that day comes.

116

 During TARP we were told, we must do something now! or else it will all fall apart.  TARP made things worse.  During the Stimulus debate we were told we must do something now! and it made things worse.  During the healthcare debate we were told we must do something now! (Although most people did not buy this time) and it made things worse.

Doing nothing is an option.  Sometimes immediate pain is necessary to mitigate long-term damage.  Acting hastily will at best delay the day of reckoning for a bit.  At worst it will cause additional pain when that day comes.

-----------

Gabe has two words for you: cynical and unprincipled.

117 Small retreats lead to large defeats.

118 He keeps using those words.  I do not think they mean what he thinks they do.

119 It's the Spending, Stupid.

Palin's point is that the House CCB bill shouldn't be dropped at the 11th hour as Boehner attempts to reinvent the wheel just because Reid refuses to allow it a Senate vote.

CCB is what Americans voted for in '10 elections.

Senate Democrats Reid et al. were all for a constitutional amendment to balance the budget during the '90s. Hold them to the fire and keep demanding a Senate vote on CCB.

Whatever high spending during low taxes passes in congressional legislation is NO SOLUTION, but only augments the debt and immeasurable interest owed by taxpayers. No More of the Same.

120 I have an idea. Give the Crybaby everthing he wants. Boehner could come out and say 'This whole crisis was over cutting 1 fucking billion from the 1600 Billion projected defecit. I give up. Spend away. S&P will now downgrade us because we did nothing to stop the spending. Merry Christmas America!

121 The debt limit is a soft stop. It is a safety that ostensibly keeps us from getting too close to an edge that we assume is out there but cannot see. That edge is a hard stop. Once we reach it, we are out of options. Maybe we'll suck it up through a painful period of hyperinflation and get our standards of living knocked back to just this side of the industrial revolution. Maybe the Republic will fall and each state will have to fend for itself. Maybe we descend into one of many post-apocalyptic worlds we've seen in movies. No matter how it plays out, reaching that edge will be the end of the world as we know it. That hard edge may be ten trillion dollars out, or we may have already reached it on some check the treasury cut last month, and we're standing on thin air like Wile E. Coyote before he starts heading for the canyon floor. We will not *know* until we get there. I won't even get started on how the left is hyper-precautionary on just about everything else but not this since I know that the shameless are immune to charges of hypocrisy and that everything they do is done to gain power and the upper hand over other citizens. The broader debate--the one that includes the left--is a waste of time and energy because they do not act in good faith. The only debate that counts is the one that is happening on the right because that is the only one where anyone is taking this seriously. This is why the tone has gotten so nasty here. Obama's bullshit about not sending social security checks if the debt limit is not raised is what took our economy/debt rating hostage. I will go so far as to say that Moody's and S&P are on board with Obama, and that's why they are making noises now (of all times) even though this is not necessary to my argument. It's a phony hostage. Besides the fact that social security checks and debt service can be covered by incoming revenues, the limit, itself, is phony. Once that limit is reached, then Obama and his layabout minions in the cabinet and the rest of the executive branch had best get their lazy asses hopping on juggling shit around to prevent default. If they are not up to the task, then they should not be in office in the first place, and the 52 dragged us across that Rubicon on November 4th, 2008. We're in a plane speeding toward a mountainside that we are pretty sure is in front of us but cannot see because of the fog. The hijacker is blocking access to the cockpit and has just grabbed a hostage that might be nothing more than a blow-up doll. The only correct first step is to take the hostage off the table.

122 Gabe,

I remember some similar hysteria and dismissal of the "purists" from Ace regarding TARP. How did that work out for us?

123 Those ppl that are scared of a repeat of the 96 elections, remember, even after the shut-downs, we GAINED 2 seats in the senate, lost 8 house seats, and Perot helped us lose the Presidency (Bob Dole). In other words, the shut down didnt really hurt us.

124 To me the best strategy at this point is to go with a shorter-term plan so that there are real cuts right away instead of this back-loaded ten year bull hockey... because we cannot possibly pass a good 10-year plan right now with Obama in the WH and the Senate controlled by the Democrats.  But we might be able to induce a couple of Senate Democrats to sign on to a two year emergency spending plan. 

Posted by: Y-not, pragmatist

 

What utter crap. We've all been saying that this plan had little to NO CUTS.

We are not going to be treated fairly by the media. It won't happen. This is why Obama will not put out a plan, or will hold off until he senses a political advantage. The few times he has, he's royally fucked it up (Obamacare, cash for clunkers, Porkulus). There is no advantage to putting forth any plan, much less yet another plan here. If it works, Obama will swoop in like Clinton did for Welfare reform. If it fails, then the plan will be blamed.

Please note that I'm approaching this from a purely poilitical angle, since none of the poligroupies will do math and still believe that cuts handed off to the Ghost of Congress Yet to Come is AOK.

125 Political insiders and pundits largely inhabit the same world as politicians and bureaucrats, and that whole world is farther to the left (statist) than the world the rest of us live in. And, unfortunately, they also think that world is *better* than the world the rest of us live in, despite the fact that they DEPEND on us for EVERYTHING. The constant "you rubes don't understand" refrain proves that. To the people who pay for EVERYTHING in that system. The only reason I'm not 100% in the "let it burn" camp is that I don't think they'll learn a Goddamned ounce of respect for the people who pay the bills no matter what happens. I guess all we can do is be ready to move when the feces finally hits the fan, knowing full well the parasites and pushers will be right behind us. As to 2012, I'm frankly a little dismayed that some people seem to think that breaking promises made to get elected, going against popular opinion *and* losing public political battles will all *help* election bids. I keep asking people if Spock had a beard.

126 GM: "Like it or not, Republicans only control one half of one branch of government."

Right. The half that writes spending bills. That's a rather important distinction and function. The House initiates money grabs. If the Executive says it's not enough, the House (and the Senate, if it's serious) says, "Mr. President, here's the plan. You'll like it or you'll get nothing." And the President may willfully veto "nothing" and explain his intransigence to the voter. That's the way it works. The House is NOT consigned to keep upping the ante. Upping it now because rational people don't want to go from boned to boned^boned is wholly acceptable and laudable despite incessant fear-mongering and blame that'll be coming anyway.

127 First you folks advocated for TARP bailouts.  Now this.  Hobbits of the world revolt against the RINOs and their Mordor allies.