1
indeed

2 Time for our soldiers to stop dying in what is really the space between several other countries.

3 *sigh*  I can't say I'm surprised, and I don't blame them. 

4 When it became obvious that Obama had no intention of "winning" or any other valid strategy I am surprised they didn't pull out then. We are killing American troops now strictly for Obama PR.

5 Going back to Afghanistan West, I guess.

6

Colonel Stuart Tootal, ex-commander of 3 Para, said: "We should only get out when the job is done properly.

"We are on the right track, but if we take our foot off the gas now, we risk all the success and investment we have achieved so far."

1. Fuckit. Enough sacrifice for those people.
2. The shithole is a money pit. Time to cut bait and bug out.

7 We should be doing the same.

8 The Brits have been a big help and have served well, but if I were them I'd pull out too. If Bambi isn't going to support the mission then it's going to go tits up anyway; better to get out now than face disaster later.

9

Remember when the Commiecrats turned Dhimmicrats called Afghanistan the good "necssary" war and Iraq the bad "unwinnable" war?

It was the other way around. Iraq at least had oil revenue, a reasonably educated population, and a strategic location. Shall we just install someone who is "our Son Of a Bitch" in charge in Afghanistan and leave it at that?

10 Umm, could it be the Brits are pretty damn tired of O's shit? What a fuck up.....

11

So, they're finally tired of perpetual war aka nation building? 

12 In the old days, given what we know now, the Brits would be withdrawing from Afghanistan and advancing into Pakistan.

Guess the sun has set on the Empire for good.

13
Seriously, I do not take withdrawal lightly.

I HATE the fact that we've lost so many good people in that awful country and we have little to show for their sacrifice. They gave EVERYTHING for a poorly planned mission with no clear objectives.

14 Shall we just install someone who is "our Son Of a Bitch" in charge in Afghanistan and leave it at that? Posted by: Curmudgeon at May 18, 2011 12:38 PM (ujg0T) Yes, and that son of a bitch ISN'T Hamid Karzai. Get a pashtun we can control, put him in charge, leave some trainers and some special forces types, lease a base, and let the new hetman keep an iron boot on the populace. It's the only way to run a place like A-stan.

15 Do note that the Administration is trying to speed up negotiations with the Taliban as well.  Obama wants some kind of agreement before the July announcement of US troop reductions.

16 Brits don't want to be the bagholders. OFA talking points after UBL was killed were "we are outta Afghanistan ASAP" They don't want to be there without the US.

17 I want our guys out too. YESTERDAY

18 oh but who will mind the poppy fields now?

19
Fuckit, why not release John Walker Lindh from prison and make him our new ambassador to Talibanistan and be done with it.

20 You fought a good war, ace. You typed your fat fingers bloody. Time to go home and get a slap on the back from the cheering home-town throngs.

21 Screw the Limey bastards. Take the oil !

22

Barack is always promising a delayed withdrawl...

23
Re: 17 I agree, after ten years it is time to "declare victory and go home".

24

Yes, and that son of a bitch ISN'T Hamid Karzai. Get a pashtun we can control

No disagreement there.

But your answer leads to another question. Should Afghanistan as a nation cease to exist? Merge the Pashto areas with "Pock-ee-stan" and the Tajik areas with Tajikistan, etc.???

25 18 oh but who will mind the poppy fields now? Posted by: Chellita at May 18, 2011 12:42 PM (5OEha) Let the Afghans do it, then outbid the Taliban and sell the product into China. Sometimes the old ways are the best.

26

I'd like Britain and the United States to give China free reign in Afghanistan to develop that supposed $1 Trillion dollars in mineral wealth.

China has the extra manpower, it can use the materials, it won't hamstrung by all of these combat rules the West imposes on itself, the women in Afghanistan can serve as wives to offset the male to female imbalance in China and still be better off, and since Afghanistan is such a hellish place even for superpowers to win, it might make China think twice in the future about harder targets.

27 They only put the tip in anyway.

28 Afghanistan had nothing of strategic importance except corrupt politicians, a military that is in bed with our enemies, and a seventh century islamic tribal philosophy. 
If we rule out expending the lives of our troops in vain (since O cannot even define the concept of winning there), why shouldn't the Brits abandon ship?  There is no long term achievable goal to be won.
Pull the troops out as fast as possible, cut off any aid to the entire region, and cozy up to India.

29 I say fuck it at this point. These tribal people aren't ready to join civilization yet. Withdraw the troops and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

30

the women in Afghanistan can serve as wives to offset the male to female imbalance in China

Chinese killing the jihadi men and taking their women. What could go wrong?

31

Osama + dead = war over. The notion that we need to stay so that the Tal-EEEE-ban does not regain control is to say that we will stay forever. That will or won't happen depending on the people over there. Unless Obama is trying to gain enough states that we actually HAVE 57 staes, we need to get out now that Obama's Muslim Bro is dead.

32
You don't make deals with thugs like the Taliban. You kill them.

The Taliban won't just treat women and girls cruelly and harbor terrorists, they'll kill and torture every single person who was friendly to the U.S.

Making a deal with them is insane and impeachable.

33 So what was the point of Obama's Afghanistan surge if he had *no* intention of trying to win the war?

34 Guys the bug out was the price the Paks set for giving OBL to Obama. The Paks get what they want (op control of Afghanistan) and Obama gets what he wants (a peace dividend to spend) and possible re-election. and NOBEL committee gets is return on investment. Remember he received a Peace Prize - it was a layaway purchase. So who is surprised here? Oh did you believe Nancy Pelosi and all those Dems calling Afghanistan the "good war"? Silly ewoks, Dems hate anything that prohibits their spending habits. How can you buy votes when you have to fight a war? Much better to fight AGW. It like the War on Poverty is ripe with opportunities to buy whole groups of people for generations. The only losers here are those unhappy fellows in uniform that will not be coming home. But we've done that too before. So everybody should be happy - gutsy call and all.

35 And eggamoobymuffin once more confirms his illiteracy.

It's "Sergeant", you fucking retard. Unless you're sucking Kennedy-clan dick, in which case it's "Sargent".

36 Liberals believe war is pointless, so they only start pointless wars and prosecute them such that they become pointless.

What is the epitaph of the British involvement in Afghanistan to be?  What did they accomplish?

37 Should have been done 2 years ago.

There was never any doubt that we were on our way out before '12 elections or that that would be enough time to do anything lasting.

We spent blood and treasure just so Obama could look like he wasn't cutting and running when he had every intention of doing just that anyway.

38 So what was the point of Obama's Afghanistan surge if he had *no* intention of trying to win the war?

Posted by: 18-1 at May 18, 2011 12:46 PM (7BU4a)

Politics.

Troops and a strategy are immaterial (and hard to develop).

39 29 I say fuck it at this point. These tribal people aren't ready to join civilization yet. Withdraw the troops and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Hi Dr. Manhattan.  We were asking about you last night. How are you doing?

/I'm leaning towards your grim assessment of the situation. 

40

Rights.  That's the problem.  Our 'leadership class' arrogantly thought they could sell the whole inalienable rights concept to everyone, including those whose ideology and belief systems rely on denying rights to the inferior and the infidel. 

Arrogance, meet kharma.

41 Liberals believe war is pointless, so they only start pointless wars and prosecute them such that they become pointless.

Not true.

You screw with the Soviet Union and we will firebomb your ass.

42

Chinese killing the jihadi men and taking their women. What could go wrong?

Posted by: Curmudgeon at May 18, 2011 12:45 PM (ujg0T)

Hypothetically, as long as they kill all of them, I'm fine with it. China let loose would dismantle Islam there. And when their economy tanks with Western Europe and ours, they might need an outlet.

43 But your answer leads to another question. Should Afghanistan as a nation cease to exist? Merge the Pashto areas with "Pock-ee-stan" and the Tajik areas with Tajikistan, etc.??? Posted by: Curmudgeon at May 18, 2011 12:44 PM (ujg0T) Why not? There was never a real nation state there anyway, just a bunch of tribes jammed together by the Brits and the Russians. Let the tribes be ruled by their ethnic brothers and forget that Afghanistan existed. The action is in Pak now; Afghanistan should cease to exist.

44

Politics.

Troops and a strategy are immaterial (and hard to develop).

Posted by: Hrothgar at May 18, 2011 12:48 PM (yrGif)

In a sane world this would be grounds for impeachment.

You either fight a war to win, or you don't fight it.

45 ""I say fuck it at this point. These tribal people aren't ready to join civilization yet. Withdraw the troops and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.""


yeah, been saying the same shit, only I'm hoping we use mass drivers.

46

You either fight a war to win, or you don't fight it.

Posted by: 18-1 at May 18, 2011 12:50 PM (7BU4a)

You obviously don't understand nuance.

47

So what was the point of Obama's Afghanistan surge if he had *no* intention of trying to win the war?

I'm uncomfortable with the word 'Victory'... which implies 'Winning'.

I'm more comfortable with words like 'Awarded' and 'Honorary'.

48 29 I say fuck it at this point. These tribal people aren't ready to join civilization yet. Withdraw the troops and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at May 18, 2011 12:45 PM (K/zX7)

Agreed, and "hi!"  How you doing?

49

You either fight a war to win, or you don't fight it.

Posted by: 18-1 at May 18, 2011 12:50 PM (7BU4a)

We haven't done it that way since 1945, because we have been conditioned by the libs to fear the consequences.  How's that worked out for us?  Not well in my opinion.

50 Bollocks

51 Are still giving our troops "courageous constraint" ribbons?  The whole ROE is designed to NOT win.....more muzzie outreach from Barry O'Piehole.

52

I HATE the fact that we've lost so many good people in that awful country and we have little to show for their sacrifice. They gave EVERYTHING for a poorly planned mission with no clear objectives.

The way I understood it, the mission was to deny the ground to Al Qaida and they accomplished that...there was never going to be a 'victory' there and it couldn't be kept up forever.

53

Why not? There was never a real nation state there anyway, just a bunch of tribes jammed together by the Brits

Of course, much the same could be said about Pakistan. See "Bangladesh".

54

What will be interesting to watch is our bug out from Afghanistan (the good war) and our continued commitment to Iraq (the bad war). I know no newsie will ever have the cajones to ask any of their betters why they now have done a 180 degree turn on military engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan. As a former ground pounder, fighting in that terrain was never a real winner practically. I am pretty sure Bush knew this as well. Iraq was the fly paper and we killed a lot of flies. Afghanistan was merely a holding operation.

55 I love Delingpole's dissection of the Cameron government's risible foreign-aid spending.  Of course I can't post a link here...

While the British govt is dismantling their military they're throwing more money at 'internationalist' efforts; the baksheesh they're slipping Pakistan just about equals what Pakistan is spending on a batch of Chinese submarines.

56 I'm sort of bothered by paki nukes floating around on the world market, Bases in Afuckedupistan help keep tabs on those, don't they? I hope.

57

Iraq was the fly paper and we killed a lot of flies.

When I heard that jihadists were pouring into Iraq to fight US and allied forces, I thought of Iraq as a Roach Motel, if you remember that product.

58 The good thing about withdrawal, for the administration, is that it frees up troops for adventures in other more worthwhile struggles...like Libya. After bin Laden, Barry needs a second euphoric moment associated with  killing Gaddafi to ensure his 2012 creds as a war leader. I assume he'll task SEAL Team Six with a suicidal mission to accomplish it. 

59 57, Isn't Michigan the flypaper now?

60 Obama wants to win the war, he just doesn't know what winning would actually be. Nobody has defined a reasonable definition of victory in this shithole. To be fair, Bush didn't either. In the end, the main benefit of this war has been to make that cocksucker Karzai one of the richest men on the planet.

61 We thought we'd use you American chaps aeroplanes.
Walking out was a bit of a bother last time, eh wot?

62 57

Iraq was the fly paper and we killed a lot of flies.

When I heard that jihadists were pouring into Iraq to fight US and allied forces, I thought of Iraq as a Roach Motel, if you remember that product.

 

I do. Open terrain and the world's second largest known oil reserve are reasons to fight and win wars. Trying to teach civilization to mongrels - not so much.

63 The way I understood it, the mission was to deny the ground to Al Qaida and they accomplished that...there was never going to be a 'victory' there and it couldn't be kept up forever.

The original goal was to drive out Al Qaeda and leave behind a friendly representative state.

Unfortunately, we (excluding the troops who were there) fought this war with a quarter-assed commitment.  When it became clear that Karzai wasn't our friend and that the central government was a mess we should have changed our approach.

Ultimately, good men died because our leadership wanted to believe you could conquer a country and then not act like a conqueror.  Note that doesn't even mean exterminating everything in Afghanistan - it means merely making sure everything going on there is in your interest.

64 59 57, Isn't Michigan the flypaper now?   If you are talking muzzies, then yes. If you are talking fascists, then no.

65

Ultimately, good men died because our leadership wanted to believe you could conquer a country and then not act like a conqueror. Note that doesn't even mean exterminating everything in Afghanistan - it means merely making sure everything going on there is in your interest.

Agreed.  Maybe there's something to the old colonial style approach, eh?

66
We could win it, but the Royal High Command are simply....well, let me put it nicely, pussies.

67 ""As a former ground pounder, fighting in that terrain was never a real winner practically. I am pretty sure Bush knew this as well. Iraq was the fly paper and we killed a lot of flies. Afghanistan was merely a holding operation""



I'm pretty sure Sun Tzu would have called afghanistan "fatal terrain". I remember using your same argument early in the war on the free republic site. My thoughts were that iraq was a way to lure all the aspiring asshole jihadi mofos of the world into an more open battlefield, or less fatal terrain for us,  rather than try to fight in the rocks and hills of afghanistan, which the soviets proved wasn't a good idea. Then some snotty asshole chick asked me if attended some war college. I said, no just fucking read Sun Tzu,.

68 Agreed. Maybe there's something to the old colonial style approach, eh? Posted by: CanaDave at May 18, 2011 01:06 PM (gVIyX) Yes. Form an Afghan Legion, subcontract Blackwater/Xe to provide officers and training, and don't make much of a fuss about rules of engagement. Things will stabilize, A-stan will (eventually) have a proper army, and our regulars can rest and re-equip back here.

69 I'm not so sure about pulling out of Afuckeduoistan just yet. A careful examination of a middle east map would show us that we have the manpower and infrastructure in place to make a heck of a Iran Sammich. The Iran story is far from over. Maybe JEF doesn't want to address it but it will have to be addressed. Maybe Amafukncantspellit will do something stupid enough to force JEF's hand.

70 Isn't Michigan the flypaper now?

Only if  we build a wall across the bottom of it and seal them in.

Opps almost forgot the Mackinaw bridge, good choke point so leave it up just put machine guns on it.

71

Yes. Form an Afghan Legion, subcontract Blackwater/Xe to provide officers and training, and don't make much of a fuss about rules of engagement. Things will stabilize, A-stan will (eventually) have a proper army, and our regulars can rest and re-equip back here.

 

I can just hear the lefties squealing like little piggies if that ever happened.

72 Time to wrap things up Iraq and Astan. the country is broke and in no mood for an indefinite commitment to defend yet another distant corner of the globe a la Korea, Europe, etc.

73 Maybe Amafukncantspellit will do something stupid enough to force JEF's hand. Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 18, 2011 01:12 PM (XZMs No, the mullahs are forcing him out because he's too nutty for them (which is saying something). Although eventually Saudi and the Gulf emirates will have to do something about Iran just for self-protection.

74 64, I make no distinction between Islam and radical Islamist, none.

75

A careful examination of a middle east map would show us that we have the manpower and infrastructure in place to make a heck of a Iran Sammich.

That was the strategery, but when the target flinched our new Pres--ent chose to ignore the opportunity. Remember? No guts - no glory.

76 ""Maybe Amafukncantspellit will do something stupid enough to force JEF's hand.""


Make it easy on yourself. Call him Imadickinajar and be done with it.

77 72 Time to wrap things up Iraq and Astan. the country is broke and in no mood for an indefinite commitment to defend yet another distant corner of the globe a la Korea, Europe, etc.     Well we could easily bug out of Europe at no real cost. Supposedly they have things in hand now. Might be time to take the training wheels off and see how they do?

78

Make it easy on yourself. Call him Imadickinajar and be done with it.

You're not talking about I'mMadInTheJihad are you?...I thought his code name was DinnerJacket?

79 76, Thanks, I'll do that.

80 Agreed.  Maybe there's something to the old colonial style approach, eh?

I think so.  When Sherman said, "War is Hell!" his point was that war sucks, so make hard choices and don't wring your hands.  Colonialism isn't a pleasant thing, but neither is war.

81 77, There will be people slaughtered by the 10's of thousands. We will never be trusted again Internationally. Of course than again, who are they gonns trust, China?

82
"Running is what you do when a plan fails" Tremors.

Is there any chance of a useful conversation with the all or nothing crowd here?

Anyone who might spend a little reading time on the concept of long war or cultural victory? 

They've been at this for 1400 years.  Let's keep them busy digging holes in Afghani dirt roads and getting Hellfired or depressed over their latest goat breakup but mostly Hellfired vs. hosting their Arab brethren's "we don't know what the fuck we're doing but we might strike Pandemic" dog experiments.

83 Oh, and shut down the show in Europe. Germany, Italy, Sicily, the UK, everywhere. Time to put NATO out to pasture. Support the Eastern European democracies, but otherwise leave Europe to its own devices. They're plenty wealthy enough to take care of their own defense and NATO's usefulness ended when the Soviet Union ceased to be.

84 totally agree with those above that our military missions in Europe and SKorea should be shut down, too. Ridiculous. We're broke, they're rich, but we're defending them. Crazy.

85 83, Absofuckinglutly, and while thery are at it let S Korea know favorable trade status or they can deal with that crazy fucker to the north of them by their lonesome.

86 It's conveiniant to have bases in Europe. Let's go where we are appreciated and loved, like Poland or another former eastern block country that remembers how fucked up Socialism really is.

87 Anyone who might spend a little reading time on the concept of long war or cultural victory? 

Very aware of it. We defeated NAZIs/Imperial Japan with our military, we conquered Germans and Japanese with our culture. Same thing was happening with Rome's conquests. It works until it doesn't. Currently, we may be conquering China with our culture. Dittos most of the world. Its our culture that Al Queda most feared. Big question, what does our culture offer a 7th century mud hut dweller up in the hills? Answer that and you can win. So far no one has a clue. I'm a sub-tard and my best guess is to leave them alone as long as they leave us alone. I think the Soviets had the same problem. Those were some boys who really knew how to order a society and couldn't succeed either. So both carrots and switches have been employed on the Afghanis with no measurable success. Does anyone have a new idea?

88 They gave it to us up the ass in Basra and now this?

The British are allies with whom we have a "special relationship"? Yeah, I am having a little trouble actually defining what that means.

I don't fault the guys on the ground. It is, as usual, the politicians. The same people who have let Britain become a third-world country of Jihadists, anarchists and other malcontents due to their self-loathing guilt. Shitbags.

89  So both carrots and switches have been employed on the Afghanis with no measurable success. Does anyone have a new idea?

Posted by: Sub-tard at May 18, 2011 01:32 PM (Q5+Og)

The USDA had a novel approach to preventing the screwworm fly from migrating from Mexico where it was a scourge of livestock. They released huge numbers of male flies, along the Texas border, which had been rendered sterile via irradiation . They mated with females with no resulting progeny and created a safe barrier. I'm just spitballin' here....

90

They're both pimping for the base. The Brits have been there, done that, with Afgoofystan. It didn't end well then. They're really ready to exit.

Obumbles is whoring to the base by trying to get at least one promise seemingly fulfilled by pulling troops from Afgoofystan.

@24, @26, I agree with letting the natural 'borders' rule this issue and then look the other way while China moves right in. I'd like to see them steam roller the towelheads when the shooting starts.

91 Currently, we may be conquering China with our culture. Dittos most of the world.

It cuts both ways.  There's a reason "Captain America" is being titled "The First Avenger" and Superman is renouncing his US citizenship - these characters are being made more 'export friendly'.

92 The sooner someone ends the regime's "Invade the Word, Invite the World" the better. We've wasted enough blood and treasure.

93 Motherfucker.

We are not going to be able to save the mission in time.

Cuba, Vietnam, Afghanistan - the left is going to screw the damned pooch *again* and all of us will take it on the chin as a result (if we're lucky), *AND* it will engender even more hostility toward us in the Middle East by abandoning allies (however poor allies they are) and emboldening enemies.

They will call it a defeat, declare victory, and start exporting Jihad again at a n even higher rate.

Man, I wish I was a drinker.

94 Big question, what does our culture offer a 7th century mud hut dweller up in the hills?

Running water, electric light, the world is your oyster.

 my best guess is to leave them alone as long as they leave us alone.

How do we get a trustable agreement up front given taquyi sp? and that their preferred attack is civilian mass casualty terrorism.

 I think the Soviets had the same problem. Those were some boys who really knew how to order a society and couldn't succeed either.

Brutal thugs driven by an evil ideology they couldn't afford especially with Masood's guys Stingering their helicopters.

 So both carrots and switches have been employed on the Afghanis with no measurable success. Does anyone have a new idea?

We've been lax with the switch and given to many carrots to Pashtun cross dressers.  Hard ROE, if there's no Taliban left we don't need an agreement with them.

95 When is Afghanistan "stable" - when these things occur with even greater regularity?

96 the left is going to screw the damned pooch *again*

Kind of sucks they're such a constraint on the whole Western Civilization project huh?  Remember this.

http://tinyurl.com/276upj8

97 I wish we were done in that hellhole. Who exactly does this prolonged slog benefit? Same with Libya. Are we addicted to war?

98 My take on the problem is that Bush thought he could reform Afghanistan because, you know, there're mostly good Muslims, it's a religion of peace, it "reveres" Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, they worship the same god as do Christians, yada yada.  Thanks for blowing that one George.  You got us into two wars we couldn't afford with add-on missions we can neither afford nor define.  You know, to think we've spent BILLIONS of $ and gotten thousands of soldiers maimed and killed because of 19 desert goatfuckers with box cutters blows my mind.  And please, it ain't a fucking "war".

99 You know, to think we've spent BILLIONS of $ and gotten thousands of soldiers maimed and killed because of 19 desert goatfuckers with box cutters blows my mind

It was more their 3000 victims.

100 99 You know, to think we've spent BILLIONS of $ and gotten thousands of soldiers maimed and killed because of 19 desert goatfuckers with box cutters blows my mind

It was more their 3000 victims.

Posted by: toby928™ at May 18, 2011 04:10 PM (GTbGH)

----------

Killed by 19 guys with boxcutters.  Didn't even need 20.

101 Killed by 19 guys with boxcutters.  Didn't even need 20.

I don't see what point you are trying to make with this?  What if it had been one?  Or 500?  It was the effect, not the number of suiciders.  And the culture that produced them.

102 I don't blame Cameron.

I would not want my troops in Afghanistan when our Retard in Chief manages to completely re-enact the closing of Vietnam, complete with that embassy evacuation scene.