1 I think it's time for the novelty candidates to begin bowing out.

2 RAAAACCCIIIISSSTTTT!!!!!!!111!!!!Eleventy!

Ahem.

This is what's scary about Cain, he doesn't seem to understand the underlying philosophy of conservatism. Aside from business, it doesn't seem that he can extrapolate conservative principles to other policy areas.

3 RAaAAAccIIIISSSTTT!!!!!!!111111!

Ahem.

This is my gripe about Cain. He doesn't seem to have a firm grasp of conservative principles beyond low taxes. He doesn't seem to be able to extrapolate conservative philosophy to other areas of policy. He's lacking depth and that's gonna kill him.

4 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

5 fuck the unions

6 I will never understand the romantic attachment to unions.

7 We are so boned. 

8 Sorry for the double post. They disappeared after I hit post.

9 Guess Ace didn't get enough rest. The shrill shrieks are deafening ... AGAIN. Give it a fucking rest, dude. We get it - you despise him and will stay home rather than vote Obama out. Gotcha. Let's have some interesting stuff instead, thanks in advance.

10 Federal employees can't strike? But they have Aegis Missiles right?

11 Posted by: Iblis at November 14, 2011 04:59 PM (9221z)

oh, no!  The double-post-itis is spreading.  First to the sidebar (albeit not recently) and now to poor Iblis!  It's an outbreak!  Call the CDC!

12

I am telling you.

Romney/Anti-Romney. All the candidates' masks will simultaneously drop to reveal they are all in fact Romney.

 

Except Paul. You can't fake that level of batshit crazy.

13 We all know that Ace doesn't read his own blog, so he missed the debate thread this weekend: Cain's over, the Morons are all on Team Newt now.

Also over?  Rick Perry.  Two months ago.  Wake up, Ace.

14 They're ALL Twix Rinos -  It was a setup!

15 And yet Cain leads in IA polling alongside Gingrich.

Absolutely mind boggling.

16 >>>Gotcha. Let's have some interesting stuff instead, thanks in advance. Yeah, well don't tell me this guy is a True Conservative. From where I stand, all he is is religious. And that's it.

17 G-D they're talking about obamacare and the Supremes. Shit I wish that were over tomorrow

18

Sigh.

Alas. I hate to say it but he's just not smart enough. The only solution I see is to take Newt's brain and put it in Cain. Or a mind meld. I think a mind meld might do it? We just have to get Newt to go along. Hey, Calista, work up something that'll convince Newt, ok. Herman just doesn't know what's going on.

19 I will never understand the romantic attachment to unions Herman Cain.

20 I'm authentic too.  I'm so God damned authentic that, that..... uh..... aw, damn it.  Oops.

21

Insane in the Cain brain...

22 I'm beginning to think Cain should've stuck to rocket science.

23 Ok, I tried saying this on a now-dead thread... I'm beginning to believe they're all running to be Mitten's V.P., including Perry.  Except for Cain, who I would otherwise think might be qualified to be Commerce Secretary, but really, I'm not even sure about that.

24 Posted by: Inspector Asshole at November 14, 2011 05:03 PM (NTNKf)

Well, at least you're honest.

Look, IA, Cain has been heralded by too many as the great hope for conservatism, but he's just not that conservative in some very, very important areas.

#1 and the most important: He wants to enable the Federal Government to tax BOTH my production and my consumption.  That is the very definition of double-taxation and "Not.  Okay."

#2: He can't articulate where he stands on abortion (from a policy standpoint) or why.  Last I checked, that was pretty important for a large number of conservatives.

#3: Now he's saying that public employees should be able to have unions (albeit in his utopia where, somehow, there is actually an adversarial relationship between the PEUs and the Politicians they elect).

It's time for conservatives to accept that he's not the right one and move on.

25 Also over?  Rick Perry.  Two months ago.  Wake up, Ace.

Posted by: Out of Touch at November 14, 2011 05:04 PM (gVqQ3)

-----

Out of curiousity, I checked the polls for September 14th, two months ago.  Guess who was in front by a wide margin. 

26 Don't worry, Ace. I'm sure Cain have about four or five different positions on Libya during the next few days before settling on one. And of course the fact that anyone's confused about this will all be your fault for calling him out.

27

From where I stand, all he is is religious. And that's it.

Except he didn't get that right with his abortion comment so, .....................not so much.

28 Just like MRSA, Iranian nukes, congressional insider trading and unemployment, the public sector union issue can easily be solved under his 9-9-9 plan.

29

 The only solution I see is to take Newt's brain and put it in Cain. Or a mind meld.

I said that months ago.

30 Which is it? If you're telling me we have to go with this guy just for the ideology, I'm going to need him to be better on ideology.

If the polls are to be believed, "we" seem about ready to go with Gingrich instead.

And if we're willing to give some wiggle room, I want to know why candidates like Perry are rejected out of hand for having one bigger deviation on ideology and two small ones.

I think the problem with Perry was he opened the disagreement by telling everyone who disagreed that we're heartless assholes. Which is not helpful in earning votes when you're running as "the guy we can all kind of live with"-and he followed it up by being a complete joke in debates. People aren't going to the mat for you if they feel like idiots doing so (ie exactly why you don't want to be stuck supporting Cain).

31 It's time for conservatives to accept that he's not the right one and move on. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 14, 2011 05:07 PM (8y9MW) the signs were there all along who anyone who cared to see them

32 It's as if he's conservative but he doesn't know why

33 OK, who's the Anony-RINO??

34 Except it's not that he's not conservative. I think it's because he's dumb.

35 Or even what it is

36 I liked Rick Perry.

Ricardo Perry, not so much.

37 Ace is clearly one of the many racist republicans that I keep reading about in the New York Times.

38 the signs were there all along who anyone who cared to see them

^^^ this ^^^

39 Ace, you have finally critiqued Cain on something other than the unsubstantiated allegations.  As far as this Cain supporter is concerned, I am disappointed that he does not understand that the unionization of state and federal employees has created the budget mess we are in.  He either shot from the hip on this or he does believe that unions in government are not a problem.  Either way I am not happy.

40
remember goin postal?

Twenty years ago today a 'disgruntled' ex post office employee goes on shooting rampage.

41

The only solution I see is to take Newt's brain and put it in Cain.

Rick Perry called for the creation of a Cain-Gingirch hybrid during his first debate, as his ideal VP candidate.  For Perry's graciousness, Cain responded a few days later that he would be a VP for any other candidate - except Perry (just last week, Cain flip flopped and added Romney to the "unacceptable" list).

Cain is a doucebage, and deserves the public ridicule he is getting.

42 That was quick. 

43 Ready to accept your apology for lining up with grifters and left-wing lawyers to smear me any time now, Ace.

Any.  Time.

On the other hand, this little adventure netted me another 10 million bucks in the bank, which ought to be enough to keep me in the race long enough to force Rick Perry out along with the other fringe candidates.

44 To be honest, I could care less if some candidate calls me heartless if he's right on the issues, or most of them.

45 the signs were there all along who anyone who cared to see them ^^^ this ^^^ Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 14, 2011 05:09 PM (+WTqd) OK you lost me on that one? Can you translate?

46 the signs were there all along who anyone who cared to see them

Well, yes.  But, too many didn't want to see.  It's time we convince them to open their eyes.

On the other hand, that does seem to be happening.  Next Newt will fall, and we'll either go to RON!!! PAUL!!!! or Gary F'n Johnson.  Or maybe MATT! DAMON!

Here's hoping Perry can stay in until the electorate has realized he's the one who can actually govern the way Republicans would like to be governed.

47

Twenty years ago today a 'disgruntled' ex post office employee goes on shooting rampage.

Are you suggesting we are getting to upset?

48 It's as if he's conservative but he doesn't know why

Ooo ooo ooo. I got it. I'm a conservative cuz that's what it takes for the GOP to nominate me.

49 Ace, Ok. I won't tell ya. Hell, I haven't even heard him or anyone else speak in over a year. Transcripts only, I loathe the media and wish them all the misfortunes in the world. So I don't watch. However, I do watch games and fun stuff. You need a break. Here's something fun: http://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/ Seriously, check it out. It will make you grin as you make things fly out of control and impact into gigantic balls of fire, terrifying little green astronauts. Except for Jeb. He's badass.

50
I'd still vote for him in a heartbeat over SCOAMF.

51 Federal Employees.... a significant number have some sort of barganing.  There are a handful of Unions that represent different agencies.  I can speak to the one that represents me, NATCA ( ATC), we do and have enjoyed collective barganing since the mid-nineties.  Cain wasn't mispeaking as badly as you imply.

52
On this day in 1995...

Republicans AND Democrats at a budget impasse force a government shutdown.

Yay, Newt!

53 All the candidates' masks will simultaneously drop to reveal they are all in fact Romney.

Shush, you.

54 you have finally critiqued Cain on something other than the unsubstantiated allegations. 

yes, you FINALLY, got around to it - good on you!

I remember the numerous discussions on 9-9-9. Maybe I was at the wrong blog.

55 It's not that I think or care that Cain may have sexually harassed women. It's that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. It's not that I believe Cain supports collective bargaining for public employees. It's that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. It's not that I think Herman Cain is indifferent to foreign policy matters. It's that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. When did not knowing what the fuck you're talking about become a virtue? Oh, and I'm just assuming DrewM is the mystery cob-logger. ANONYMITY JUST DON'T GO AROUND HERE, MR. KANSAS CITY RINO-BOY.

56 >>>ce, you have finally critiqued Cain on something other than the unsubstantiated allegations. Right, this is the very first time. I'm so glad you were here for it. You're obviously a very old-time reader.

57 From a purely historical perspective. Cain is a retard. From a historical perspective. Of course.

58 i still think Cain is a Romney plant.

59 It's as if he's conservative but he doesn't know why

No, it's as if he's realized that Conservatives are good for business, but doesn't understand what "Conservative" means, in the modern political climate.  He can't articulate Conservative values (beyond business) because he doesn't identify with them.

60

Let us reflect backwards and project forwards, shall we?

Anti Romney #1- Christie.

Says no.

Anti Romney #2- Palin

Waffles and dilly-dallies and says no.

Anti Romney #3 - Pawlenty (botched from the start)

Anti Romney #3- Bachmann

Batshittery starts to leak when Perry rumors rise

Anti Romney #4- Rick Perry

The debates and being heartless

Anti Romney #5- Herman Cain

Opens mouth, reveals self to be nuts. Also something about touching hoo-hoos.

Anti Romney #6- Newt Gingrich

Sneezes in a liberal manner

Anti Romney #7- Johnson

Caught smoking a fat spliff and not sharing after debate.

Anti Romney #8 Roemer

People forget who he is exactly when people remember who he was

Anti Romney #9 Paul

People realize water has been spiked with LSD, come down from trip

Anti Romney #10 Huntsman

Stands under hot lights too long, makeup melts off to reveal Crist had tried to sneak back into political relevancy.

Anti Romney #11- Mitt Romney

50% for himself when he was against his last position that reversed his current one. A mobius strip only visualized previously by the mentally ill (between spiders crawling out of sinks and before teaching at an #OWS seminar). The perfect anti-Mitt, because he knows the real Mitt Romney and disagrees with whatever position Mitt is having at that exact moment, though it may seem unclear to the viewer, whose brain exploded about five seconds into it.

 

61 I've been off Cain ever since the racist rock seemed to confuse the hell out  of him. However I still think Rahm set him up with the "sex" scandal.

62 Don't forget Cain wants to add a national sales tax....

63 Ace,  you have nothing to fear from a Cain Presidency.

64 Don't forget Cain wants to add a national sales tax.... Posted by: KG at November 14, 2011 05:13 PM (LD21B) Like I give a shit

65 27 - you forgot that he is in favor of allowing the states to implement gun control and that he supports a path to citizenship.

66 Don't forget Cain wants to add a national sales tax....

Why didn't you ever discuss this on this blog? It was all Herbie the Love Cain allllll the time.

67 From the Declaration of Independence: "He [then King George, now the federal government] has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance." I have no confidence that Cain can explain why that is a bad idea. His entire campaign is built around a new way to feed the beast; not kill it.

68

Perfectly acceptable to reject Cain for policy issues.  Not acceptable to reject him because of an MSM hit job.  These are not mutually exclusive positions.  And yes, I'd say Mr. Cain is unqualified because he A - he's not as up to speed on the issues as your average blog reader and B - his positions are not conservative enough IF in fact he IS and is just a poor extemporaneous speaker.  The candidate has been vetted.  He is done. 

Go Newt, Go Perry.  (The last 2 left standing that aren't Romney.)

69

Cain has never been the guy I was going to vote for in the primaries.  I would like to see Perry gaining some ground and perhaps he will before the first primary.  Everything is really fluid right now.  I'm not betting on anyone at this point. 

Having said all that, Newt is growing on me, though.

70 Can we just write Herman off yet?

Say what now?

71 on some level i have to like a guy to support him. i liked cain early but now i think i'd hate him in person. gingrich for sure. a pragmatist that'll consider any amount of authoritarianism if it's 'smart government' including the individual mandate. i'm perry til there's zero chance. then paul. then anyone but obama.

72 I think it's become clear to many that Cain might be a nice guy, but he really doesn't seem to know what's going on. Allegedly a lot or most of his support is based on emotion. I understand your frustration, but if the goal is to make sure that he doesn't get the nomination, may I suggest that you lighten up a little in the Caun bashing lest you cause them to dig in their heels because the guy they adore is being attacked. And for the record, I don't think this is a gratuitous Cain bashing post. I wonder if it's all a moot point anyway (on this site anyway) as I really don't think there are that many Cain supporters here.

73

Also something about touching hoo-hoos.

I think it's woo-woo or hoo-hah unless it's some sort of hoo-woo-hah-woo hybrid hoo-hoo with a ho-ho.

74

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at November 14, 2011 05:11 PM (0yt4x)

 

You called down the Thunder Crunchy Figs, well you asked for it

75 Cain simply isn't qualified. Even Obama, who was not qualified as evidenced by his achievements as a stuttering clusterfuck, gave enough of a shit to learn about issues. Usually from Marx and Howard Zinn.

Herman's got the affable gladhanding down, though.

76 So now- Herman is to the LEFT of FDR. Franklin Delano Roosevelt: "... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ... "Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... ."

77 A second look at... *gulp* Mitt Romney? Look, I'm still for Perry, but maybe we have to start being realistic. "Man Up" and take our medicine. A lethal dose.

78 The Rent is too Damn High!

79

I think it's woo-woo or hoo-hah unless it's some sort of hoo-woo-hah-woo hybrid hoo-hoo with a ho-ho.

Posted by: dagny at November 14, 2011 05:16 PM (1vrBr)

Frankly I find his behavior crass since he didn't go for the titties first.

80 To be honest, I could care less if some candidate calls me heartless if he's right on the issues, or most of them.

That's true enough and there may be time for Newt to flame out and Perry get another shot.

81 One of Cain's more troubling characteristics is that when he's faced with a difficult question, he tends to punt and say that he needs "more information".  That's all well and good - nobody should have to make a decision without having the necessary information, but when you're the CinC and you get that 3 am phone call (particularly since Iran has or will be soon obtaining nuclear capability), the time for collating information is over and you have to make a decision without all the optimal information. 

For the record, Cain could have avoided that awkward pause if he had said something along the lines of "I do not agree with what President Obama did with Libya.  Ghaddafi is a murderous dictator with American blood on his hands, but he was not an existential threat to the US - in fact, he had dismantled *most* of his WMD programs and was cooperating with the international community with respect to terrorism support". 

82 I get tired of saying this, but we complained loud and long about Obama being an affirmative action candidate without the required experience or knowledge to be President.   In reaction to the Obama debacle (an "Obacle"?  run with the neologism, morons), should we really opt for a black Republican who lacks the required experience and knowledge  on the basis of affirmative action?   Rick Perry gets savaged for whiffing on the third cabinet department he'd cut, when I'd be happy if Mitt Romney wanted to cut one.   But we let Cain off the hook for gaffe after gaffe that goes to the substance of conservatism?   Really?   WTF is going on here?

83 I'll be over here while you're all sorting this stuff out.

No worries, I'm a patient man.

84 FDR (cont.) . Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."

85 Wow....Perry jumped on the Insider trading stuff fast. 

New ad:

http://tinyurl.com/7tn9cwg

86 Posted by: Boone at November 14, 2011 05:14 PM (Jl3Mu)

True.  There are just so many that it's hard to keep track.

Though, honestly, I don't have nearly the problem with "a path to citizenship" that some conservatives have.  But I concede that it isn't a popular decision, and so (if I were running) would limit my response there to "any discussion of a path to citizenship is premature.  First we must focus on controlling the borders."  If pressed enough, I might go so far as to say, "I do not support allowing law breakers, which is what anyone here illegally is, the benefits of United States citizenship. On the other hand, deporting them all would be a logistical nightmare.  So, that's a discussion that would have to be had."

87 This is my gripe about Cain. He doesn't seem to have a firm grasp of conservative principles beyond low taxes. He doesn't seem to be able to extrapolate conservative philosophy to other areas of policy. He's lacking depth and that's gonna kill him.

He doesn't seem to have a firm grasp of any principles outside of the desire to sell books.

It was never a serious campaign to begin with.  That, and I suspect his ego is such that he thinks he can just wing it no matter what the issue, assuming that he can charm and bullshit his way past his obvious failure to familiarize himself with core issues. 

With far too many of the gullible within our party, he's unfortunately been proven right.

88 I'm looking at a Rick Perry/Sean"Black Irish" Bannion ticket.

Morons you can believe in.

89 Perry is the most qualified, most electable candidate we have. I like Newt too but as VP or something. Here's my question: if we're willing to accept Newt's 'walkback' or apology for the Nancy couch incident, why aren't we willing to forgive Perry's apology for his 'heartless' comment?

90 Tell me when we get someone to vote for. I will gladly talk about whoever that is at that moment in time. Until then, I have no fucking clue who to root for other than Fred Thompson. Go Fred! Thompson! Fella. Yay.

91 You know who's ready to make a Power Move? Buddy Fucking Roemer, that's who.

92 Um, what's the opposite of a quick study?

93

Posted by: CAC at November 14, 2011 05:17 PM (ewtiU)

I discussed this with my husband as I remembered our first kiss. He too feels that woo-hah-woo-hoo-ho-ho grabbing before the tit grope is very wrong and declase.

94

folks are moving their money from banks, but not in those kinds of numbers

http://tinyurl.com/7xlarp6

google news link

95 No, it's as if he's realized that Conservatives are good for business, but doesn't understand what "Conservative" means, in the modern political climate.  He can't articulate Conservative values (beyond business) because he doesn't identify with them.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 14, 2011 05:13 PM (8y9MW)

 

Agree.  He starting to remind me of McCain in 2008.

96 >>>62 i still think Cain is a Romney plant. A plant would imply some level of deception. He is actively running FOR ROMNEY! Cain and now Bachman are 100% Team Romney.

97 Ahem... I'm available if anyone is interested.

98 We freak out when Romney punts on this issue in Ohio, but when Cain says it, it's True Conservatism Defined.

Who claims, this other than the voices in your head? Good lord, can you be any more a jerk? Is this some kind of personal vendetta now?

Its funny to me but the people who are the first to condemn people for being "purist" almost always are the ones to point at some aspect of a candidate which doesn't fit their list of perfect requirements as proof they must be crushed at all costs.

99 But he speaks his ignorant bullshit plainly! He's plainspoken! It's refreshing! Lamestream media! He will have smart advisors! Are you forgetting about the smart advisors?

100 I'll be over here while you're all sorting this stuff out making up my mind on the Ohio collective bargaining bill. Oh wait, that's over. Oh well. Fuck Ohio. I never really gave a shit anyway.

ps......it's MY turn. The sooner you accept this the happier it will make me.

101 76 Can we just write Herman off yet?

Say what now?

Posted by: Iowan voters at November 14, 2011 05:16 PM (+WTqd)

Hey at least ABC promised to air all the debate in Iowa on their network and not swtich you over to the web and the affiliates in SC, even though none of the major markets in SC carried the final half hour.

I bet when they ask the final question of the night they actually let the candidate answer too.

102 I'm confused myself. I thought the purpose of a 'union' was for collective bargaining.

What exactly is the purpose of a Federal Workers Union, and how did they ALL get these fabulous jobs and benefits packages we constantly hear about.

103 www.ace.mu.nu/CainObsessed24/7

104


ooops, wrong thread

105
Is it true that David Axelrod and Donna Brazille are gonna moderate the next GOP debate?

Why not, right?

106 And if we're willing to give some wiggle room, I want to know why candidates like Perry are rejected out of hand for having one bigger deviation on ideology and two small ones.

Gotta agree with others, I wanted Perry to get in the race based on his past and experience, its not my disagreements with him on a couple of issues but his campaign that moved me away.  It's ABO for me, imperative that I believe the nominee must be able to beat OdipO.  I think he has already been palinized.

107 93 Wow....Perry jumped on the Insider trading stuff fast. 

New ad:

http://tinyurl.com/7tn9cwg
Posted by: Tami


Nice.  Very nice.

108 Greetings from Phoenix.

Cain's campaign appears to be a one-trick pony (the economy) and his solution (9-9-9) more and more appears to be a gimmick instead of an acutal solution.

109 As long as we can swing the Senate back to our side by electing actual conservatives, Newt is fine by me.

110 "Man Up" and take our medicine. A lethal dose.

Not in the primary.

111 But he speaks his ignorant bullshit plainly! He's plainspoken! It's refreshing! Lamestream media! He will have smart advisors! Are you forgetting about the smart advisors?

I for one look forward to seeing Chief of Staff Mark Block in action.

112 This is my gripe about Cain. He doesn't seem to have a firm grasp of conservative principles beyond low taxes.

I agree, its the same concern I have for Governor Perry. They seem committed to conservatism in theory, but don't have a firm foundation of understanding conservatism. For that matter, Sarah Palin seems to be in the same book.

its like they got their ideas of conservatism by listening to some Rush Limbaugh shows rather than learning the fundamental background of why people hold conservative positions. It shows when they're cornered on an idea they haven't heard from someone else, they fumble or punt.

113

most electable candidate we have. Posted by: Mr. Cain at November 14, 2011 05:19 PM (zLeKL)

*ehk*

In terms of electability, if you are going down that road:

Romney

Gingrich

Cain

Huntsman

Perry

State by state, that's what has played out. Perry was tied with Romney before his string of gaffes. Look where he is now.

114 Conversely look at Gingrich's recovery after the Paul Ryan comment....

115 Romney will have a problem in the southern states during the primary (I hope.)

116 Bachman makes more sense than Cain.

117

First of all, the real story here is that Herman Cain owns a tie that isn't yellow.  I'm shocked.

Cain embarrasses himself every time he opens his mouth but that Libya interview was just.....  Oh, man.  How anyone can support this guy is a mystery.  

Cain is damaging the entire Republican Party.   

118 1 I think it's time for the novelty candidates to begin bowing out.

Posted by: brak at November 14, 2011 04:57 PM (nIoiW)

But first you will blow me.

119 If it is any consolation to Perry supporters, the latest state-by-state polling data shows Cain actually crashing faster than Perry did, and Perry is experiencing a slight bounce-back in approval numbers. Still, his numbers in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Virginia, Florida, and New Hampshire are atrocious compared to where they were the moment he announced.

120 Its time we realized that Romney is our only chance.

121 Thanks, Ace, for doing this grunt-work. Cain may talk pretty and have nice resume, but he's maybe a little bit behind the curve on the problems with the blue-state model governing class kleptocracy. We should be looking for nominees who understand these issues and more. Sure, Cain would probably come to the right conclusion if he was up to speed on these issues, but ... he hasn't.

122

I'm still for Perry.  Cain has something to add. I think it very important for all these conservative ideas be fleshed out before the GOP retakes control of the government.   Cain's 9-9-9 plan and Perry's flat tax, Ron Paul's ideas, all the rest, are red meat to be digested.  Obviously it matters little what the POTUS 's idea for tax policy is.  The new House and Senate are where that kind of stuff counts.

That's why I like Perry... .the stuff a POTUS can do, he is saying he will do... regulation stoppage, review of agencies & cabinet level posts, energy idicts, etc.    I hope Perry can continue to improve.

123 I agree, its the same concern I have for Governor Perry. They seem committed to conservatism in theory, but don't have a firm foundation of understanding conservatism.

Ummmm... what?

The only place Perry deviates from the Conservative Orthodoxy is in immigration, and he's actually much closer to the Orthodoxy than you think.  Everywhere else, Rick Perry is conservative.

124 At least you're talking "issues" again, Ace.  I really really missed that last week.

125 Romney will have a problem in the southern states during the primary (I hope.)

Posted by: mpfs, Voting 4 Perry at November 14, 2011 05:26 PM (iYbLN)

If enough candidates remain to split up the delegates, it won't be enough.

126 ps......it's MY turn. The sooner you accept this the happier it will make me.

Posted by: Mitt Romney at November 14, 2011 05:21 PM (+WTqd)

First, you will blow me.

127 I told them we needed to expand.

128 CAC- In don't know if you caught that last "poll" that Allahpundit was twittering and that they posted at Hot Air-that supposedly showed Perry cratering.... It was reported by MSNBC First Read. Funny thing is they didn't report the margin of error. Why? They had 102 respondents. That gives you a margin of error near 10% I think about 9.68%- essentially- Pure junk-but it's been spread about every where.

129 Posted by: Cain at November 14, 2011 05:27 PM (vI8R6)

dammit

130 I'm going to take Allahpundit and bitch slap some stats into him-sideways.

131 Hey guys.I'm still here...And sporting the 90s Jamie Lee Curtis hairstyle I previewed at the last debate. You like?

132 I'm just wondering why the hotel upgrade receipt hasn't surfaced? Let's face it, though, Herman Cain will not be at the top of the ticket, for reasons far more important than rumored attempted rapes.

133 If Bachmann, Cain, Santorum, and Huntsman would all just drop out, we would be down to a real race between Perry, Gingrich and Romney. But so long as the clown car demolition derby candidates keep whacking off, you have a discombobumalated anti-Romney bloc and Romney.

134

If he went under the shirt before he went under the skirt - you must acquit.

135 There's also a poll that says 52% do not want Perry to get out of the race.

136 I finally figured this crap out.  About Cain, not the accusers, those we can be pretty well certain are a load of malarkey.

Someone told Cain conservatives were about traditional values, tax reform, and pro-business policies.  Unfortunately that seems to be the extent of what he took away from it; it's sort of a poorly thought out mishmash as a result.

As such, he seems to be...how do I put this gently:  appealing to those who like the idea of 'conservatism' but haven't actually thought much about what that means.  Which is I suppose better than the alternative, but it sure has its pitfalls.

The irony of it is, given the state of the electorate, if he can put paid to these allegations, he may actually stand a chance.  Whether this is a good thing or not in the longer run, I'll leave to others to figure out...

137 The only place Perry deviates from the Conservative Orthodoxy is in immigration, and he's actually much closer to the Orthodoxy than you think.  Everywhere else, Rick Perry is conservative.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 14, 2011 05:28 PM (8y9MW)

 

Agree.  He's the only one who's actually tried to "govern" conservatively.  The same goes for Newt and Bachmann.  Romney has governed, but his record is anything but conservative.  The rest are using uninformed sincerety, or just pandering (Huntsman).

138 Romney has 20% and he has flat lined there.... I think that is the liberal Republican vote. He has no competition for that....

139 Devourer of Worlds sock begone!

140

He has no competition for that....

 

That hurts.

141 This whole Congressional insider trading kerfluffle in the last couple of days reminds me once again that Newt is a guy with a lot of good ideas that is one real bad idea.
How many skeletons can you jam into one closet?

And I think Cain is going to be fine as long as they just let him keep talking and don't ask him any more questions.

<sub>Anybody know someone that runs well while leaning to their right?

...anybody?</sub>

142

Posted by: Methos needs to read ahead at November 14, 2011 05:33 PM (sOXQX)

Well at #126 I was hardly fast on the draw there myself. The joke must be slipping enough for lurkers like me to get their chance.

143 How the flying hell are these people to the Left of FDR on public sector unions.... All you have to do is look at Europe to see what happens when you let the public sector unions control the rest of the populace...

144 They had 102 respondents.

That gives you a margin of error near 10% I think about 9.68%- essentially-

Pure junk-but it's been spread about every where.

Posted by: tasker at November 14, 2011 05:32 PM (14jKX)

Tasker, I look at dozens of polls a day. I tossed that along with Rasmussen's crap approval polling already.

Anything with fewer than 500 respondants doesn't even garnish my attention.

Adult polls also go into the toilet.

 

Perry's numbers cratered badly in late September, and are only now beginning to recover. The rate of collapse is about three times the rate of rebound. He needs to amp up his game to get back into serious contention and to change his third-rate performance in the polling.

If Cain totally wipes out, Perry does have that shot.

145 That hurts. Posted by: John Huntsman at November 14, 2011 05:36 PM ****** Damn it LMAO!

146 I would like more news about Fred Thompson.

147 Damn it LMAO!

Posted by: tasker at November 14, 2011 05:38 PM (14jKX)

I'm afraid all we have left is humor. And val-u-rite.

148

Of course, another chance for me to say, Darn you, Pence, Darn you.

149 I'm just wondering why the hotel upgrade receipt hasn't surfaced? Let's face it, though, Herman Cain will not be at the top of the ticket, for reasons far more important than rumored attempted rapes.

1.  It was some 14 years ago.
2.  Even if they did surface, few would consider it as definitive- his defenders would say (and have saud) it's not "proof" that he did anything inappropriate, and those who believe the accusations are already convinced.

To be fair, nobody has accused him of "attempted rapes".

150

I'm afraid that before it's all over, all we'll have is Abe Vigoda.

151

>>I think it's woo-woo or hoo-hah unless it's some sort of hoo-woo-hah-woo hybrid hoo-hoo with a ho-ho.

Posted by: dagny at November 14, 2011 05:16 PM (1vrBr)

_{You must be one breathtakingly beautiful woman to make your husband forget that horrific speech impediment.}

_{God love ya}

152 Soooo...you're telling me that being the former head of the Restaurant Association isn't a good jumping off point to run for President of the United States?

153

To be fair, nobody has accused him of "attempted rapes".

 

Release the Hostage

^{_{off  'Heavy Petting Zoo'}}

154 Anything with fewer than 500 respondants doesn't even garnish my attention. Adult polls also go into the toilet. ***** Yep... there's a lot of junk out there-but have you seen the modeling..? I have to go look at past Iowa caucus turn out but why in the hell are they weighing for Democrats in the Iowa polling? I think that was Insider's Advantage...IIRC and then they only polled 12 of them. What the flying hell? I guess some Democrats participate in the Iowa caucus...? And they are definitely weighing for Independents-105 or thereabouts. So you have Iowa polls being weighed like that-and the New Hampshire polls which because that is open has a lot of Dems being polled. Then you have the phenomena of polls from Iowa and New Hampshire leading every other poll around by the nose...

155  Soooo...you're telling me that being the former head of the Restaurant Association isn't a good jumping off point to run for President of the United States?

Posted by: jjshaka at November 14, 2011 05:43 PM (4/rgA)

 

Okay.  You've set your trap.  Now, walk away.

156 Only thing I regret is that I never got the chance to hear McCotter in a debate.

157 I'm afraid all we have left is humor. And val-u-rite. Posted by: Barbarian at November 14, 2011 05:39 PM Ya-it's gallows humor...holy crap.

158 Then you have the phenomena of polls from Iowa and New Hampshire leading every other poll around by the nose...

Posted by: tasker at November 14, 2011 05:46 PM (14jKX)

Tasker, in nearly every state poll, not even talking primaries now, but the general election polling head-to-heads by PPP, WPIC, Marist, Rasmussen, SurveyUSA, Quinnipiac University, and a half-dozen others, Perry's approval numbers have crashed from the time where he first entered- and his head-to-head performance against Obama went with it.

That doesn't mean he can't bounce back. But to deny that it is a tough hill to climb is silly.

 

159 Best First Name for Best President: THADDEUS 2016! "He's got a way cool name" (and he's conservative and funny) But he's short, so we'll end up with Romney. Again.

160 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

161 Anybody who still supports Cain is a fucking retard.

162

I wonder how many who claim they will not vote for Romney in the general, are actually telling the truth.....because from where I sit....Romney pretty much has it locked up, and I don't want Romney, but I would vote for him over Obama.

Maybe Gingrich can unseat him, but doesn't look like Cain is going to do it.

163

Backing collective bargaining for public employees puts Herman Cain on the same conservative ground as Jerry Brown (who had sex with Linda Ronstadt [probably] back when that was something you might brag about). This should also give him cred with football fans because Jerry Brown and all-time NFL great Jim Brown are brothers (confirmed!).

Someone should check to see whether the public employee unions in Sim City have collective bargaining rights.

164

That's why I like Perry... .the stuff a POTUS can do, he is saying he will do... regulation stoppage, review of agencies & cabinet level posts, energy idicts, etc.    I hope Perry can continue to improve.

Posted by: Yip in Texas at November 14, 2011 05:28 PM (FLFli)

Likewise. He is improving and by the holidays his "gaffes" will become distant memories.  While I was intrigued by Cain, he seems most limited in the breadth of his knowledge.  Newt is brilliant but main of the body politic does not grasp what he has. Perry better pull it together or we will be boned with Mittens and the same ol' same ol'.  Alternatively, maybe DeMint or somebody will be "called to duty" and enter. Who knows. 

165 158 I'm just wondering why the hotel upgrade receipt hasn't surfaced? Let's face it, though, Herman Cain will not be at the top of the ticket, for reasons far more important than rumored attempted rapes.

1.  It was some 14 years ago.
2.  Even if they did surface, few would consider it as definitive- his defenders would say (and have saud) it's not "proof" that he did anything inappropriate, and those who believe the accusations are already convinced.

To be fair, nobody has accused him of "attempted rapes".

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 14, 2011 05:41 PM (SY2Kh)

I'm sure if it did exist, we'd of heard of it by now. Proof or no proof. And you're right, to be fair, nobody has accused him of attempted rapes; and neither do I.

166

Listen up, pukes, I was a desk jockey on the public dime for 20+ years, which means I know a thing or two about taking on those fat cat unions. 

General Cain is the only true conservative out there who'll be willing to break the unions and to restore fiscal sanity.  General Cain's track record on dealing with public sector unions speaks for itself.  If you can't see that then you're nothing but a Mexican loving RINO!

Cain-Gingrich, '12.  We don't know our CBAs from our ABCs, but we sure know how to charm those lovely ladies!

167 167
Ya-it's gallows humor...holy crap.

Posted by: tasker at November 14, 2011 05:49 PM (14jKX)

Did the Soviets allow people to operate home distilleries ?

168 Hermie revealed himself as 3rd rate huckster on the day he introduced his 9-9-9 plan.  What friggin' joke.

169 You'll be hearing from me again real soon.

170

If the GOP loses the presidential election, it will be because - in the Midwest - the party literally said screw you to Reagan Democrats.

Examine the approval ratings of Snyder, Kasich, and Walker. 

THEY WERE FINE and were receiving a reasonable amount of public support when they focused on getting financial concessions from unions.

As soon as they went on a full out push to break the unions, their public support plummeted.  People aren't stupid.  They fully understand that the GOP wants to eliminate all unions: that's a minority position, especially in the Midwest. 

My guess is that Obama carries Michigan, Wisconsin, and possibly Ohio.  If he carries those three, the election is over. 

171 CAC You are witnessing the "herd phenomena." What is getting the most publicity is the early state polls...and it does effect how people respond to polling in other states. True it's very real... I think Perry's firewall is South Carolina-although I think Cain might have a special appeal there... So.... Plus actually the only states that matter are the early states because then there is- the momentum theory.

172 First time commenter.

The GOP is preparing to pull a national Sharon Angle. Think about it. Harry Reid was as vulnerable as ever, and all the GOP had to do there was nominate a quality Republican candidate who could defeat Reid. Danny Tarkanian or Sue Lowden would have done the trick. But, they didn't meet each of the conservative qualifications, and we instead got Sharon Angle. We know how that turned out.

Wouldn't we all trade Tarkanian or Lowden for Reid? I know I would. But the GOP got in the way of itself and, frankly, botched the election.

Now we have a lot of back-and-forth about the conservative flavor of the month in the presidential GOP race. Perry...Cain...Newt...none of whom could beat Obama in the general election. Be honest with yourselves. Perry's debates have been downright comedic. Cain is too inexperienced and too reliant on 9-9-9 for everything. Newt, though he is a masterful debater, has more baggage than an airport.

Which leaves Romney. I'm not a Romney fanboy, nor am I a moderate. But I recognize that the GOP is on the verge of losing the forest for the trees and nominating another Sharon Angle to lose to a very vulnerable Obama.

Here's to hoping the GOP primary voters come to their senses and nominate the one remaining candidate who can defeat Obama, which should be the GOP's Goal No. 1 - period. It should not matter if he is not as conservative as you would like, because with a GOP House and a likely GOP Senate, a lot of solid things could happen that would be impossible under a second-term Obama.

Now I'll go back to just reading.

173

"General Cain is the only true conservative"

A true Conservative has major problems with Public Unions. Cain seems to not know what he is talking about. In the video Cain seems clueless to the fact that Public employees are making more money than there private sector counterparts. This.Is.A.Problem!

Cain has a great personality, and maybe a great leader, but he seems to be quite short on the details, and they are gonna matter. If in office he is going to get man-handled by the left and fall prey to their usual tactics. I suspect a Cain Presidency will grow the size of government....just my opinion!

174 Did the Soviets allow people to operate home distilleries ? Funny you should mention that- There is the vodka theory of Soviet economics. Why pull more than your fair share when you can hit the vodka bottle? Something like that.

175 They fully understand that the GOP wants to eliminate all unions: that's a minority position, especially in the Midwest. No, that isn't what we want. We want the PUBLIC employee unions to stop stealing the political power of the People by terrorizing them. Public Employee Unions are unAmerican and evil. The ones in the marketplace? They can takes their lumps with the rest of us. The ones in positions of Power and Privilege? Fuck'em, they're abusing the People and killing our Republic.

176

"They fully understand that the GOP wants to eliminate all unions: that's a minority position, especially in the Midwest."

This is simply not true! There is a difference between the Public and Private Sector Unions. The GOP is apporaching the Public Unions from a stand-point of economics, and they have the facts on their side.

It is not about destroying the Union, it is just that, the Union can only be dealt with by being destroyed. All Public Sector unions have to do is not be so greedy, and they will be left alone.

 

177

AMISH DUDE:

It ain't a romantic attachment to unions. 

Union workers make more money.  Americans like making more money.

I can't understand the inability of conservatives to understand why somebody might want to

1. make higher wages

2. have due process rights - in other words, you can't be fired without cause

WHY IN THE HELL ELSE WOULD A PERSON WANT TO BELONG TO A UNION?  It has nothing to do with romanticism, etc.  It's about money.

Have any of you guys who "don't understand" the romantic attachment to unions ever worked in a union shop? 

 

178 There is the vodka theory of Soviet economics.

Why pull more than your fair share when you can hit the vodka bottle?

Da.

179 OK, that's enough. Now that he's weathered the harassment allegations, supporting collective bargaining is a good reason for me to stop supporting him. I guess I'll watch Newt carefully, again.

180

"Union workers make more money.  Americans like making more money"

Your making the case for why attacking them is legitimate. The dirty secret is, that the federal government and the state governments are in so much trouble financially, these unions will be going away anyway. It is actually the GOP that is saving them, by trying to reign them in. If the Democrats got their way...they would have long destroyed the unions, because they would have already bankrupted to system that feeds them.

Typically...in my experience in politics....the side that is being demonized is typically demonized by the Demon.

 

181 Now I'll go back to just reading.

Posted by: Geaux at November 14, 2011 06:03 PM (duDRS)

So, whatcha reading first timer?

182

i don't really care who the nominee is, as long as they aren't part of the current establishment, there are no insiders who are also reformers, that just doesn't happen,

Romney will reform NOTHING,

Perry will reform NOTHING,

and Newt will reform NOTHING.

 

will Cain? i don't know, but I do know the others will not.

183

and yes, if he keeps on touting collective bargining for Public Unions he's going to lose me real fast.

 

184 stickety There is a vast difference between public sector unions and private sector unions.... When for example-air traffic controllers go on strike they cripple everyone's ability to conduct business. There's other examples.... *If* America gets more and more dependent on public transportation..which the Left seems hell bent on achieving-what happens when the public sector unions that run the buses, trains and subways go on strike? They can cripple the whole country. No small minority of the public should have the power to hold all of the citizenry of a country hostage like that. The reason being-in the public sector -there is no other company the public can turn to -for air traffic control. Or for transit such as trains, and bus service.

185

Cheese Wheel McBeal:

You don't know what you're talking about. 

In Michigan, for instance, the public employees pension fund has been FULLY FUNDED for decades.  In fact, it was so well funded that our two previous governors (Engler and Granholm) both tried to BORROW FROM IT to fund current spending projects.

Public School Employees pay a 6% mandatory contribution to the pension fund, and local schools pay a % determined by a pre-determined formula.  Public school employees receive a 1.5% multiplier, which equals a 45% pension after 30 years.  This is NOT extravagant, and it is perfectly in line with what would be expected if one were to properly fund a 401K for 30 years.

ALSO, IN MICHIGAN, schools are funded by the state on a per-pupil basis.  In other words, it ain't New Jersey, where property taxes can be repeatedly raised, destroying the tax payers.

The state controls all of the purse strings.  In other words, when the state cuts per pupil spending by $400 a year (like they just did), LOCAL UNIONS have two choices: 

1. make significant concessions

OR

2. see significant lay offs.

It's that damn simple.  That's why local unions across the state have made major concessions over the course of the past decade.  They HAVE NO CHOICE.

The GOP in Michigan is not seeking to curb the "greed" of unions.  They are seeking to eliminate them.  EVERY SINGLE LAW they've passed has been specifically designed to eliminate collective bargaining rights, eliminate any and all worker protections, and to - quite simply - break the teacher's union.

You may agree with this.  FINE.  Just don't play stupid and pretend like the GOP isn't trying to eliminate unions.  Anybody with a fully functioning brain understands exactly what the GOP is doing.  

BREAKING UNIONS is extremely popular on this website and with conservatives in general.

It isn't popular in the Midwest. 

 

186 I'm writing in fragments ..please excuse in advance.

187 193

i don't really care who the nominee is, as long as they aren't part of the current establishment, there are no insiders who are also reformers, that just doesn't happen,

Romney will reform NOTHING,

Perry will reform NOTHING,

and Newt will reform NOTHING.

 

will Cain? i don't know, but I do know the others will not.

Posted by: shoey at November 14, 2011 06:17 PM (jdOk/)

Hang on.......

188

191: 

I was making a very clear point in response to an idiotic question:

Why do people have a "romantic" attachment to unions?

VERY SIMPLE:  UNION WORKERS MAKE MORE MONEY.

It isn't a "romantic" attachment.  It's simple. 

If you were a union worker making $60,000 a year, and Republicans were pushing to cut your wages by 10 to 20%, would your attachment to your union be "romantic" in nature?

189 The more Cain talks the worse it gets.  I was already against him for president, now I am wondering if he should be primaried when he comes up for re-election.

190 Do you have any idea what the public sector union hierarchy makes in Michigan? What their annual salary might be? In Wisconsin-the GOP simply tried to make paying union dues voluntary-so that maybe the union leadership would have to earn it-instead that was viewed as "union busting" giving the union clubs at the bottom a choice or "vote" in wether or not the union was worth it. *If* the union is representing it's membership so well- why would the union leadership fear giving public -sector union members the right to voluntarily pay their dues?

191 I've loved Herman Cain ever since he was in the Little Rascals.

192

Don't worry, he'll say he misspoke, and all will be forgiven, because he's not a politician.

193

the signs were there all along who anyone who cared had the intellectual capacity to see them

^^^ this ^^^

Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 14, 2011 05:09 PM (+WTqd)

 

Corrected.

194

And yet Cain leads in IA polling alongside Gingrich.

Absolutely mind boggling.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 14, 2011 05:05 PM (+WTqd)

 

It's Iowa.

195 Then again, maybe it's just because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

This. Just call him Herman "Affirmative Action" Cain! 9!9!9!

196 Ironically, the Anti-Obama is skating by without substance just like his marxist opposite TheWon appears to have done throughout his career.

I guess that a lot of us are racial racist racists that like to use the race card or something.

Jeeeeesh, that video is excruciating! 

Holy mackeral

197

@196

Stickety,

Uhhh...your a little short on the facts pal:

1.) MPSERS is underfunded by $36.9 Billion. You seem to believe that just because the Trust Fund Value is on the up & up on the accounting side, that the money is actually sitting in a vault somewhere ready to be spent. I know alot of people try to make this case about S.S.......that position is a fraud!

2.) Michigan is not the same as Wisconsin or Ohio, because in 1997 they switched from the "Defined Benefits" pension retirement to a "Defined Contribution" pension retirement, which is exactly what Walker was trying to do in Wisconsin.

3.) From your prespective, you pretend as if there is no reason the break the unions. It seems you beleive that the GOP wants to break unions just for the hell of it, because they are mean. As I explained above, if public sector unions we easily downsized when necessary, and if the expense was easily adjusted, the unions would never be under attack. But they aren't!

My position is that the GOP is actually saving the unions, but that seemed to fly right over your head, because you don't seem to understand that without restriction, the unions would run themselves out of business...do you not see this?

 

198 I'm just wondering why the hotel upgrade receipt hasn't surfaced?

This is the question in the bloody world to answer. The accuser wouldn't have it, as she is saying Cain upgraded the room. Cain wouldn't release it, now would he? He could, however, authorize the hotel to release it, but hasn't. The hotel is refusing to release it, citing their privacy policy.

Get it?

199 *easiest question

200 Primaries? Absolutely NO need for Primary elections.

Ace has decided, and ruled against all but Perry.

Listen up, you morons - stay home, if you don't want to vote for the Ace ticket.

To do otherwise is to risk RINOism, or even being branded an Independent!

201

Perry?

I wrote Perry off a long time ago....so did every other thinking American!

202

From Hot Air, I couldn't resist passing along these:

 

To be fair, Libya did accuse Cain of sexual harassment, and thatÂ’s why he canÂ’t remember them.

portlandon on November 14, 2011 at 5:40 PM

 

I guess that video explains why he never successfully harassed those women.

lorien1973 on November 14, 2011 at 5:38 PM

203 You can be against Cain not getting the nomination without promoting the MFM's smear campaign. Hint: if you're on the same side as Gloria Allred, you're doing it wrong.

204 199 The more Cain talks the worse it gets.  I was already against him for president, now I am wondering if he should be primaried when he comes up for re-election. ----------------------------------- Re-election to what?

205

187 Have any of you guys who "don't understand" the romantic attachment to unions ever worked in a union shop?

I don't live in a Slaver State. I live in a Freedom To Work State.

So no, I haven't contributed to the violence, murder, larceny, threatening pressures and terroristic tactics of a union.

I own nothing made by slaves.

I don't even visit Slaver States like Illinois and the rest of the whole pit of the near-Northeast..

And for Public Unions - they compound their vileness with seditous actions. So I don't have anything to do with former countrymen who have joined up with a foreign-inspired and -originated criminal organization no matter what the name.

 

 

206

Cain seems like a good guy.....maybe his place is as "Running Mate Status," but clearly he is not ready for Prime Time!

The 9-9-9 Plan is extremely flawed!

207

<i>Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 14, 2011 05:18 PM </i>

Not thrilled with the position; it isn't a dealbreaker for me.  I mention it mostly because somehow Perry is seen as worse on immigration than any of the other candidates, despite having done more to secure the border than all 35 other candidates combine.   (I figure that Romney and Cain count for at least 30 candidates between them with all of the changing positions they take)

208 It's amazing how uninquisitive Cain is. He was just asked a series of foreign policy questions on Saturday, which he gave medicore answers to. Here he is again giving even worse answers. To be fair, foreign policy is an immense subject and even the most seasoned candidates have a hard time trying to navigate it without mistakes, but Cain seems completelty uninterested in getting up to speed in a serious way. This is what his critics are talking about when they question his judgment about allowing Mark Block to manage the campaign. Cain has shown very poor judgment recently and has been defensive rather than adaptive to his missteps. Sad, but at least it's been exposed early, so supporters have a chance to really weigh they continued support for Cain. ps. The collective bargaining answer is stunning. Scott Walker, Kasich, Romney's phone bank waffling and still Cain is lost. Just stunning.

209

I also do not care that Perry called me "heartless" (actually, not me.) I care why he called me (you) heartless. He did it to preen in front of the media and "the center". If he'll do it now he'll do it any time he needs a punching bag on any issue.

But that's why you never trust any politician ever. Newt told me that when I was a callow youth: Don't trust me or any other politician, ever. I took his advice from that day forward.

Perry's no worse than any of them.

210

"The collective bargaining answer is stunning. Scott Walker, Kasich, Romney's phone bank waffling and still Cain is lost. Just stunning."

I am beginning to believe that the attack on Cain didn't come from the "Left," but came from the "Right." How would Obama not want to run against this man? I know that he would be worried that Cain would steal the Black Vote.....but at this moment, Obama would mop the floor with him in any style debate.

Maybe the somebody on our side trying to tell us something by giving Cain such a hard time so early?  

211 I'm going for Cain just so Obama will be known as

The. Worst. Black. President. Ever.

from the inauguration day onward.

212

1. MPSERS is not underfunded, precisely because we do have a defined contributions system.  I CLEARLY stated that in my post.  I said NOTHING about Wisconsin's system, and I specifically said that Republicans were winning the FINANCIAL arguments; however, they are LOSING the arguments regarding collective bargaining, precisely because the average vote understands that the Republican party is out to eliminate unions, not to "help" them.

2.  Where in my post did I argue that Walker was wrong to try to move state employees to a defined contributions system? 

Didn't I specifically point out that Michigan HAS A DEFINED CONTRIBUTION SYSTEM? 

3. I don't think the GOP wants to break unions just to be mean.  I think the GOP wants to break unions because they want their friends in private industry to be able to make money off of the taxpayer.

Do some research on charter schools.  Find me ONE SINGLE STUDY that suggests that charter schools, on the whole, outperform public schools.  Take a lot of time because you're not going to find one.

In Michigan, the average public school spends approximately 60% of its funding on teacher wages and benefits.  The average charter school spends 50% of its funding on teacher wages and benefits. 

Quite simply, the GOP wants to privatize education, but they don't want to privatize educational funding.  They want taxpayer money to flow to private businesses which operate for profit charter schools.  These schools are non-union, and they pay teachers far less.  The money saved is not "reinvested" in children.  It is the profit margin. 

It's that simple.  It's crony-capitalism. 

There's not a single part of it that is pro-education.  It's purely anti-teacher.

If that's the system you want, advocate for it.  Just don't pretend like the GOP is out to "reform" education.  It isn't.  In fact, the primary "reforms" Michigan Republicans are pushing for are less seat time and more time spent on internet classes (i.e. blended instruction).

There's not a lick of evidence that those two moves will improve education.

They will save a hell of a lot of money, eliminate teachers, and make more money for the "for profit" charter industry. 

213 Thanks to a coblogger, but I won't say who, because I'm sure he doesn't want to be called a RINO 40 times today.

It was Drew, wasn't it? 

Yeah, it was Drew.

214

You can be against Cain not getting the nomination without promoting the MFM's smear campaign. Hint: if you're on the same side as Gloria Allred, you're doing it wrong.

Posted by: Crownroyal at November 14, 2011 07:01 PM (H+YHY)

I think she's doing an admirable job of representing her client's wishes. Whether her client is telling the truth is another matter.

Personally, I suspect so.

215 36 It's as if he's conservative but he doesn't know why   C'mon that's not fair. He knows why he's conservative--to sell books.

216

"Maybe the somebody on our side trying to tell us something by giving Cain such a hard time so early?"

Waaa, waaa.

He chose to run for President. He's woefully unqualified, inept ... and probably of poor character. The fact that he's sucking up the primaries is his fault, not ours.

217

They will save a hell of a lot of money, eliminate teachers, and make more money for the "for profit" charter industry.

I'm trying to follow what you are saying but I'm confused.  I think you are conflating public employee unions with private sector unions.  As far as the public teachers unions, I don't think a return to the '50s would hurt education in this country.

I've argued with my teacher friends that you shouldn't be able to have both civil service and union protection.  Pick one I say, but not both.

218

stickety

"I was making a very clear point in response to an idiotic question:

Why do people have a "romantic" attachment to unions?"

 

Is that why currently only 19% of the workforce is union?

 

 

219 Oh, and Cain's toast.  Mrs928 has turned on him and she loved him.  Just not ready she says this evening.

220

 "I think the GOP wants to break unions because they want their friends in private industry to be able to make money off of the taxpayer."

I do not understand what this is supposed to mean? The point of a Charter School is the ability to demand performace without the protection of the Teacher's Union. The teachers in Charter schools are paid on performance, the end result is better performance.....that is the entire premise of the Free Market System (Risk vs Reward).

The "Their Friends" is just a strawman. You act as if only the GOP has cronies in the Private Sector. More of big business, especially Wall Street, has supported the Democrats over the last three election cycles, than Republicans. There is no conspiracy to union busting...it is clear...unions have a political agenda independent of the economics, therefore they are a clear threat to the financial stabillity of any given state.

 

221 >>The fact that he's sucking up the primaries is his fault, not ours.
Posted by: Random at November 14, 2011 07:16 PM (YiE0S)

Maybe before, but not after stuff like this.

This makes Perry's 53 second stumble seem like Nureyev with the Bolshoi

222

Stickety,

"There's not a lick of evidence that those two moves will improve education"

Are you aware that the United States has spent more inflation adjusted dollars every year per pupil since the 50's while math and reading scores have gone down every year?

Obviously....what we are doing isn't working...it is time to break the teacher's unions.....kill the Department of Education, and start over with a plan that makes sense and works!

223 stickety How about this .... Everyone's taxes go to public schools-we have very little choice in that matter. Why? Well what private entity could "fairly" compete with a company-aka public schools-that get automatically funded-no matter how they preform? Let's say Target is the public school system and Wal-Mart is the private-charter school. Target get's everyone's taxes. Target gets everyone's kid bussed to their "stores". Target gets everyone's taxes to pay for their buildings. Soon Target (the public school system) has a damn monopoly and has near zero incentive to perform well. In fact Wisconsin schools perform worse than the schools in Texas when comparing 8th graders ability to read, even though Texas has some 20% of school age children whose first language is not English... And I guess up above I should have used a state level example but given the Public school's-(Target's) monopoly on education. Why should public teacher's unions get the right to collectively bargain -strike-effecting every citizen's kids right to be educated? The citizens who had their taxes confiscated to pay for those very schools? And why should every parent of the state have their ability to earn a living impeded because they have to scramble to find caregivers for their children who are forced to stay home?

224 That's why I like Perry... .the stuff a POTUS can do, he is saying he will do...

Mostly yeah, and that's very appealing to me. He's pushing non-president stuff, but for the most part yeah he's running on what he'd do as an executive, and that's really attractive to me. That's why I'd vote for Perry with reservations but Cain strikes me as not quite ready yet.

But Perry's "heartless" crack hurt him VERY DEEPLY with conservatives and is going to take tremendous effort to overcome. He should put Cain as VP if he gets the nod, because that would prep Cain for the job later.

225 Public Employee Unions should never have been made legal. Ever. The entire purpose of a union is to help disadvantaged and abused workers find justice, which public employees have never needed. Their entire power comes from being able to shut down and extort benefits out of a business, which we cannot allow employees to do to government. They create a power bloc that can influence policy and their own pay through force of law which is unacceptable.

No public employee unions, ever.

226 The democrats already ran an affirmitive action candidate.  We sure as hell don't need to!

227

>>No public employee unions, ever.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 14, 2011 07:37 PM (r4wIV)

This is why I gag when I hear the tired line that JFK would be a Republican in today's political spectrum.

Helllloooo, he legalized public sector unions with an EO.

228 Gawd my grammar...anyways. If the public had a viable alternative to turn to-like a Wal-Mart of schools then teachers going on strike might be more acceptable-but because it is public sector and the parents have very little in a real alternative -public school teachers have way too much leverage over the taxpayer-the rest of the citizens- to get their way. That's only one of the aspects that makes public sector collective bargaining rights patently unfair to the taxpayer. The other issue is the bargaining table. The Union dues go to Democrat politicians-the Democrat politicians are the ones bargaining for the State-with the Union leadership on the other side of the table. -The very union leadership that sends the politician the campaign contributions and the union workers to canvas for Democrat politicians, to do the phone banks etc. So essentially the public sector union gets control of both sides of the bargaining table-while the average taxpayer doesn't get near the same representation.

229 The only way to settle this is for Herman and I to have a series of  32 12-hour debates.  The rules are simple:  No food or drink, and 5 minute bathroom breaks every 4 hours.  We'll make Lincoln and Douglas look like pikers!

230 Newt dammit you had your chance! And I don't think Lincoln or Douglas sat down during the debates.... You piker!

231

We're down to Romney, Cain, Gingrich, and Perry.  The conservative choice is...

Yeah, it sucks, but we have to choose one of them.

Perry screwed up with his "heartless" comment and his various debate malfunctions, but does that automatically make me have to choose from Romney, Gingrich, and Cain?

Gingrich would destroy Obama in a debate, but I can hardly wait for the MFM to bring up his proposal to bring back orphanages, how he came to meet his current wife, the lame excuses he offered for having an affair (he loved his country too much), etc.  Tricky road to actually getting elected.  Not too mention, would a narcissist of his caliber be able to govern?  Oops, I mentioned it.

Cain. Well.

Romney.  His only hope to win the nomination is that none of the other candidates drop out.  His only hope to win the election is non-existent.

You know, though, if Fred Thompson had won in 2008, he'd be running for re-election this year.  Fred, are you listening?

232 Cain is not the conservative droid we were looking for.

233

Listen the problem with Perry is that he looked into a camera and said something that idiot Rino morons having been telling us forever, we have no heart.  That was direct to the people who were his base.  I will still vote for him if he wins.

Cain was attacked so people circled the wagons, there is no moment I know of where he looked into the camera and called his base a bunch of bigots.  He bumbles along like the novice that he is with a total idiot of a campaign manager who should have brought him up to date by now.  I still will vote for him

Newt, well I like the guy, but I don't trust the guy.  Newt has a mind sharper than steel, but a spine of jello at times that allows him to morph into something else, still better than Obama.  I will vote for him

Romney, nice hair, if I have to hold my nose and vote for him, I will!

234 Surely this new comments thingy is quite an old oojit by now.

235 Ugh none of these guys, just pitiful choices. So utterly disappointed.

236

I live in California, so the only vote I have that will count is in the primary. Of course, it will probably all be settled by the time the CA primary rolls around. 

Unless we actually WANT Romney, though, it might be nice if we could support one of the alternatives instead of complaining about their all-too-obvious faults.

237 Bachmann, Perry, Cain and Newt.

People jumping all over this freak parade to stop Romney are starting to be exposed for fools. Romney looks like a Mount Rushmore candidate compared to these B-Leaguers.

238 219 It's amazing how uninquisitive Cain is. [etc.]


THIS. 

239 As a Cain supporter since May, this is disappointing to see.  I knew the new guy was rough, but over six months, you need to smooth over those rough edges.  But it seems he isn't doing it.  It's like a great athlete coming to a sport late, you make allowances for him to work his athleticism into the sport, but at some point he either gets it or he doesn't.  Michael Jordan ultimately never made it in baseball, did he?

After 29 years of being the 2d biggest Newt fan on earth (2d only to Newt himself), I gave up on the guy back in May due to his Ryan backstab.  But is Cain now stabbing Gov. Walker?  Uggghhhh.

Cain's campaign actually was a textbook  unorthodox campaign, but they needed to develop/grow once they actually made it into the top tier (which was a huge and amazing accomplishment for them).  It seems that the limiting factor on their development since then (mid-Sept.) has been...THE CANDIDATE HIMSELF, unfortunately.

And I really question Newt, too.  Does he have any ground game?  Does he inspire any loyalty from any person other than his [current] wife?  Can he avoid torching himself just as he gains traction now?  I just don't know.  Ugggghhhhh.

One thing I'd strongly urge everyone.  Support or oppose the candidates based on your own priorities--NOT based on what you imagine the lamestream media morons and the "independents" will do or not do.  That is a fool's game, just ask the McLame supporters from 2008.  The most "out of the mainstream" candidate we've ever run ended up patenting the over-the-aisle recruiting--remember those "Reagan Democrats?!"  And first 44, then 49 states.

Actually, I've never been a bitter-clinger for Herman Cain.  If he's way down, and a more conservative candidate has a shot, I'd of course support the other conservative vs. Romney.  It's kind of a fancy formula:  The Other Conservative must be at least 5 points above Cain, and within at least 5 points of Romney (or above him).  Then I'll vote strategically.  Of course.

Hey, what do Herman Cain and Prohibition have in common?  Come on, morons, you can do it!

BTW, CD'A wrote:  "I wonder if it's all a moot point anyway (on this site anyway) as I really don't think there are that many Cain supporters here."

Acc. to the latest AoS poll, 1/3 of the voters here are Cainiacs...Same as Perrywinkles.
 
And never forget what I've said for months here:
Rick Perry is never as strong as he looks.
Rick Perry is never as strong as he looks. (tm)

240

Posted by: Cheesy Bacon Bowl-worthy at November 14, 2011 07:10 PM (puy4B)

 

no he didnt, he wasnt preening or trying to get MSM cred. he was in a debate getting attacked relentlessly and was just scrambling to find something to respond with. and he picked the wrong thing to say, which he does in debates. his speeches and interviews are great. but if you think a president has to be a great debater, if you think those type of skills will help keep iran from getting nukes, roll back the regulatory monster or help restore the country's credit rating than you vote for mitt cause he has far and away been the best debater overall.

241 it amazes me how many of the cainiacs would say they werent going to let the MSM pick the candidate for them, and to not believe the MSM lines. yet they have bought into what the MSM has told about perry, they think he's dumb (sure, didnt get good grades, but flew friggin' jets!!) or that he cant speak well (debates are just one format, watch him give a speech) all those are MSM narratives. so its okay to discount other candidates on what the MSM says but not cain??

242 Romney won't be so bad, provided we have a Tea Party Congress.

243 Stolen from Malkin poster Swede...

Need another clue there genius? Without the right to strike, unions have no bargaining power.

Geez you is smart. ThatÂ’s the point Einstein.

National Labor Relations Act gives labor the right to collective bargaining, BUT government unions and other essential services do not have the right to strike. Exactly what Cain awkwardly and tediously alluded to, if you bothered to listen. ItÂ’s the battle Reagan won with PATCO and Walker just won in Wisconsin. ThatÂ’s why Cain doesnÂ’t have a problem with CB, nor do I.

Back to you Professor.

244 Wow, Gloria Cain is an amazing woman.  She will make an awesome First Lady.  Yeah Herman messed up on foreign policy a little bit today but hey, the president gets a briefing every day and can surround himself with the finest foreign policy people in the world.  It's when the president doesn't understand the economy and how it works and how the fed works that we run into problems.

245 What a wonderful charming appealing family.  Vincent and Karol are just warm and interesting and congenial and the grand kids were adorable. 

Greta Van Susteran's interview of Gloria and the kids and herman is well worth your time.

246 It's funny how people are so unforgiving to Newt's every stray word, yet still can't detach themselves from a complete ignoramus (of both issues and apparently conservatism itself.)

Cain is a muppet.  Deal with it.

247 Yeah! Like flipping out over not knowing the most common meaning of the word 'develop' - Deal with it.

248 Ya know, the Milwaukee paper puts out its little snipped edited HD clips of Cain from this interview within a few hours, we all get a nice detailed look at those gruesome moments practically in realtime...

Just like when Obama told the SanFran paper that he wanted to bankrupt the coal industry, right?  Remember how big they played that up?  And how the LATimes rushed to release the vid of Obama sucking Rashid Khalidi's d!ck?

It's reasons like this I want to vote for Cain just to shove it up their @sses, lack of knowledge be damned...

249 Ace- Please crank out eight posts telling us why Perry should be the nominee, before anymore posts about why we shouldn't vote for a particular candidate. I haven't written Perry off yet. The Forbes endorsement did not go unnoticed by this Kemp fan. Seriously....please walk us through his transformation from Gore's campaign manager to conservative. Convince me Perry is the best choice instead of persuading Palin/Bachmann/Cain are not. The 60 minutes story is yet another glaring example of why it is imperative that we get this nomination correct. We need a game changer.

250 Need another clue there genius? Without the right to strike, unions have no bargaining power. Posted by: Rmoney Fan at November 14, 2011 10:24 PM (7MFxV) This is not true, without the right to strike unions do not have the leverage to bargain that they want, that leverage is not zero without the right to strike. Furthermore, unions do not need a law to be allowed to strike, or bargain collectively; the law is required to allow them to strike or bargain collectively without repercussion. There would be more unions and more union members without the "rights" to strike and bargain collectively monopolized as they currently are.

251 Just wanted to stop in & say suck it Cainiacs.

252 Texas and Oklahoma used to be solid Democratic states. Even the most conservative politicians had to run as Democrats if they wanted to be elected. After Reagan, or should I say after Carter, it started to become safer to run as a Republican. Even so, a lot of southern conservative politicians continued to run as Democrats. Back when Perry worked for Gore, Gore was considered a conservative Democrat, so much so that he was considered the conservative balance to Clinton's more liberal tendencies. It was Gore that helped make Clinton acceptable to more southern voters. It wasn't until after Gore ran for President that he became the left wing liberal Bozo we know him as today. A lot of people made the final jump to the Republican party.  I was a conservative Democrat (held office in my college's Young Democrats), but it gradually became clear that the national Democratic party wasn't interested in having any conservative members. A few southern Democrats held on (Zell Miller, Dan Boren, etc), but those days have pretty much come to a close. Perry's switch doesn't concern me because I've followed a similar path.  As for his stance on tuition for illegals, I'm not a fan, but it's importatnt to note that the bill he signed garnered only 5 (five) no votes out of 181 votes in the Texas legislature. This is something he pushed through or spent enormous political capital to make happen. For reasons that I don't completely understand, this was the consensus position in Texas at the time it was passed.

253 "this<b>isn't</b> something he pushed through..."

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255 I'm not interested in counting anyone out yet. Let's let our GOP voters decide. At some point in the primary/caucus voting - sometime around So. Carolina or Florida, the candidate list will narrow. By then the Anybody-But-Romney vote will become clear. All these efforts to declare one candidate or another "dead" in advance are just irritating to me. Cain and Perry both need to step up their game. I've been waiting awhile for Cain to step up his game, and so far he hasn't. Time is running out. On both of them. It's Gingrich's turn to face the vetting machine, now that he's risen. When someone has chosen their favorite candidate already, it makes no sense to listen to their criticisms of other candidates, because they're biased. Ace and Drew seem to be actively campaigning FOR Perry and against the others (especially Cain). They've been in the bag for Perry for months. I'll listen to their arguments for Perry; I will NOT listen to their arguments against any other candidate. They've made that decision for me.

256

"The smart money inside the Beltway says that the Republicans need to pick a moderate candidate who can appeal to independent voters, not just to the conservative voters who turn out to vote in Republican primaries. Those who think this way say that you have to "reach out" to Hispanics, the elderly and other constituencies.

What is remarkable is how seldom the smart money folks look at what has actually been happening in presidential elections.

This is from a great article by Thomas Sowell, it almost feels as though he's the canary in the coal mine.

257 Looking forward to this field narrowing to Newt and Mitt. Would have been nice if DeMint had run, but at least either of them won't make asses out of themselves when discussing policy. Besides, having an intellectual president won't be so bad when it's an actual intellectual.

258 Ace, please consider me convinced that the man is a moron. And not in the good way.

259 I could defend Cain on those videos. But I'd be writing fiction. Hi Newt!

260

Would it be rude of me to point out that Cain was entirely correct with his response about federal employees, whereas the questioner was entirely confused?  After all, I don't want to rain on the RINO parade of wise men having their fun calling Cain stupid.  But the fact is, federal employees do have collective bargaining, just not collective bargaining for wages, so when the questioner asked if federal employees should have "collective bargaining" it was an ignorant question.  Cain correctly pointed out that they already do by asking, "They already have it, don't they?"  How this can be interpreted as Cain being ignorant, when it's exactly the opposite, lies somewhere in the lalaland of the RINO mind.

Continue on like this, people, and we will end up with Romney as the nominess, which is exactly what the establishment statists want.

 

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