1
Rantus Interreptus

2 Hey GOP, take yer Mitt and GFY.

3
I had my rant on and Ace made an "unexpected" post.

4 Most of the party doesn't want Romney as their standard bearer. We know this from the fact that Romney does all the technical aspects of politicking right -- good debater, good ads, raises lots of money, strong organization, unified and relentless messaging from surrogates -- and yet can't rise any higher than 25% in polls. You forgot -has nicely creased pants and speaks French for the David Brooks-Peggy Noonan vote.

5 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

6 I like to draw succor.

7 If that stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure could win the presidency, then of course Mr. Cain can win the nomination. And I know he would be +1000 better than O'bama could dream of being.

Of all the candidates, none of them are worth beans, but they are all an improvement over the status quo.

8 Twist of Cain

9 Yes We Cain!

10 Cain is not...one of us.  And I don't mean that in a racist way.

11 I can't find myself really enthusiastic for Cain or anyone else in the GOP field this cycle.  No one strikes me as an excellent conservative, they are all flawed and some more than others.  It'll be the least likely to offend me candidate come Nov 2012 that'll make me pull the lever for.

12
$3M in a single month when you're leading in the polls Ain't a Hill of Beans.

13 The attack on Cain has been wrong-Santorum is hitting him in the...religion...but the place to hit Cain is in foreign policy. We've got how many kinetic actions-and you wouldn't know it by 90% of the debates.

14 Have your fling, wingnuts.

15 Helena Cain!

16 You will bow before me!

17 The bitterness is strong with Ace.

I'd hate to see what he'd post if Bachmann were up.

18
Lookit, lemme break it down for you.

Cain is in a race against himself.

It's a race between his mouth and his lousy fundraising that'll do him in first.

19 Cain is going to flame out, probably in spectacular way, and the numbers will move back to Perry.

20 Cain scares me: he holds too many opinions that are just wrong (an EXTRA way for Washington to tax us?  This is conservative?), but I like a lot of what he says.

FTR, I'm not one who encourages him to "get more seasoned" or whatever- I believe ideas that are wrong are fundamentally wrong.  "Seasoning" will not fix fundamental philosophical differences.

That said, he's a million times better than Romney, who is a million times better than SCOAMFOTUS.

And I'm still all-in for Perry.

21 >>>$3M in a single month when you're leading in the polls Ain't a Hill of Beans. It's plenty. He has a lean operation, because he's been on a shoestring budget. Now he's got $3 million. He doesn't have to try to build a big operation. A small operation would be a big step up for him, and affordable now.

22 Personally, I don;t believe the polls that show him in first place or even close.  I think something else is going on.

Either Dems are participating in these polls and pretending to be likely GOP voters, or real GOP voters are not taking the polls seriously yet.

Click on Nate's link that reads "New York Times/CBS News poll" for this quote:

About eight in 10 Republican primary voters say it is still too early to tell whom they will support, and just four in 10 say they have been paying a lot of attention to the 2012 presidential campaign, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.


I say these polls are just way off.  No way Cain gets even close when it comes time to vote.

I like the guy, but he is not a serious player IMHO.

23 If the press does not treat Cain as a serious candidate-does that make them racist? Do they think a black Republican is a mirage?

24

Yep.

Romney and Perry treating this as if their main rival was the other is going to bite them in the ass.

I've cooled on Cain, but I agree that he should be taken seriously for good or ill.  Its not pure chance that he got here, or because of secret support from Romney, or because voters are throwing a tantrum and will come home to Perry.

25 I can't really believe Cain is getting this much traction. All I can think is that everybody wanted Perry and didn't want Romney, got disillusioned when Perry screwed up in the debates, and decided to go to Cain as the designated anti-Romney. Or, maybe the Bradley Effect is at work. Or maybe both. In any event, I have sneaking feeling that Cain isn't going to do as well in actual voting as he does in the polls. We'll see.

26 This is something that's been on my mind of late.  The hardest lesson to learn in this life is that other people don't necessarily think like you do.  I've been hearing folks here in the Deep South talking back and forth, and I'm hearing emerge the sentiment that Cain might be the one.

In Montgomery, Alabama.  Ponder that.  This is not nothing.

In the end we can make all the reasoned analyses we want, but in the end, politics is like Hollywood...nobody knows anything.  At least until the day after, when everyone sifts through the returns and wonders how the h--- that happened.

So electability, yeah.  This is why I and others have to keep reminding folks that the standard model of 'electability' cannot be the end-all and be-all.  Because sometimes, the electorate has other ideas.

27 You know you want me.  Stop playing coy.

28 actually that 25% of that party that is supporting Romney doesn't want him either. otherwise they wouldn't have tried drafting Mitch Daniels, Paul Ryan, Chris Cristie, and Paul Ryan (again) to run.

29 He has a lean operation, because he's been on a shoestring budget. Now he's got $3 million. They are saying he only has six staffers.... That's what I think I heard. Maybe a better question is -was Cain serious? Or did he just want to sell books and now he finds himself in this position...

30 The thing you're missing is that Nate Silver is the ultimate number cruncher.  Don't you think he to every one of your arguments and fact into consideration when arriving at he conclusion?

31

Yeah and it turns out he's not really even campaigning in states

32
I dunno but I think tv and radio ads can eat up $3M in no time.

Well, unless Cain keeps cutting ads with just his old campaign manager standing outside and smoking a butt.

33 If the press does not treat Cain as a serious candidate-does that make them racist?

As far as the Drum Circle Media goes, if it doesn't fit the narrative, it doesn't exist.

34 I think Cain got the voters waiting for Sarah...

35 Cain can't win

AMEN !!!!

36 Romney and Perry treating this as if their main rival was the other is going to bite them in the ass.


Perry doesn't need to attack Cain. He just waits for the flame out and then Cain's supporters move back to Perry.

37 Well, unless Cain keeps cutting ads with just his old campaign manager standing outside and smoking a butt. It's interesting that his campaign manager made the ad about himself. WTH...

38

And Perry's going nowhere fast, Ace, because he's a retard who looks and sounds like a narcoleptic Ken doll.  Do we want that representing the party next year?

Oh, and he's soft on illegals, too.  That's a deal-breaker for a lot of people.  At least with a guy who jokes/doesn't joke around about installing an electric fence, you know he's at least on the right side of the issue, even if you don't really believe he'd actually install an electric fence along a 2000 mile border.

39 Cain has a make or break moment with his debate against Newt. If he does well, you'd be hard pressed to continue on the line of how he talks like a dumbass all the time.

40 Oh, and why is there a video of Wicked up?

41 Well, unless Cain keeps cutting ads with just his old campaign manager standing outside and smoking a butt.
Posted by: Soothsayer
.........
An ad, BTW, that is getting TONS of free play through links and even on the national news.

42 Perry doesn't need to attack Cain.

I don't think he needs to attack Cain directly, but he needs to defend his tax plan with occasional sprinkles of "not giving Washington another vector by which to take our money," and he needs to talk about (intelligently) about his opinion on some of the foreign policy issues that Cain has admitted he doesn't know.

43
I just thought that Cain's surge in the polls would come with a big-big surge in donations.

He's not enough raising 1/4 of what Perry & Romney each are raising.

44 i thought the powers that be already decided he couldn't

45 Show tunes on AoS!!! Run for the hills! The apocalypse is nigh!

46 >>>Cain is going to flame out, probably in spectacular way, and the numbers will move back to Perry. Uh, how? Cain's voters, I'm pretty sure, include lots of social cons (he seems to have gotten most of the Palinistas). Now, Cain basically just said abortion is a woman's choice, and these people (who like him because he's a True Conservative, capital letters much intended) gave him a complete and total pass. The point is, he's been granted the STATUS of True Conservative, by people who will only vote for someone with the status of True Conservative, and even when Cain seems to go out of his way to announce he's NOT a True Conservative, his contingent of voters shrugs it off. This is what frustrates me, is that so much of this has nothing to do with rational inputs. If it had to do with rational inputs, strongly pro-life people would dumb Cain for his pro-choice comments. But this is about some kind of status that is beyond (and below) rational thinking and rational inputs. Cain is a True Conservative not because what he says, but simply because 30% of the party who makes decisions about who is and isn't a True Conservative have decided he's a True Conservative. Period. Perry exposed himself as a squish on immigration. That destroyed him. Because he did not have the status of True Conservative, so he was suspected from the beginning. But Cain has that status, so he can say abortion is a woman's choice and people who say abortion is one of their top two or three issues just ignore that. Because he's a True Conservative, so we know what's In His Heart (TM), and it doesn't matter what might pop out of his mouth. This argument from the position of non-rational granting of Status is driving me apeshit.

47 I like yellow flowers!!11!!1!

48

>>It's plenty. He has a lean operation, because he's been on a shoestring budget. Now he's got $3 million.

But his campaign manager(the smoking guy) is probably gonna use that money to pay off his forclosed home, unpaid taxes, and costs related to his last two DUIs

49 when everyone sifts through the returns and wonders how the h--- that happened. In that way Cain reminds me of Mc-Cain.

50 Let's see how he does in Iowa and New Hampshire. I think the more people see that he is derided by the elites, the more support he's going to garner. Think about what happened with the Tea Party. People were told that it wouldn't be decisive by the usual suspects. If nothing, it made people willing to take a closer look. We could see the same thing happen with Cain. I don't support him, but I would vote for a yellow dog before I voted for the President.

51 >>>Oh, and why is there a video of Wicked up? Because I was listening to "Popular" and I thought the gist of the song -- it's all about pop-u-lar -- was kind of on point.

52

Show tunes on AoS!!!

NOOOOOOO!

53
is it true his campaign manager was banned from politics at one time (recently)?

54

Ace, sometimes you can look into a fella's eyes and tell whether you can trust him or not.

55 Ben.. Wow-that guy doesn't have circles under his eyes for nuttin'.

56

(Why don't I? Because he talks like a fucking dumbass much of the time, and when he's not talking like a fucking dumbass, he's doing an empty folksy pander which is all very nice for those who are receptive to it but says nothing about policy or ideas or competency for office.) -- Ace

 

Yikes - who peed in your wheaties today? Unfortunately, no amount of convincing, arguing or anything will change your opinion... so, I won't bother.

57 I'm sick of instructing them...

I don't need you to instruct me in anything, but thanks for the offer.  Now go outside and play.

58

The big question is, even if Cain wins Iowa (or beats expectations, or whatever), does he have enough money and organization to compete in the later contests? 

Historically, you need a lot of money and decent state-wide organizations to do well in Super Tuesday.  In '04, IIRC, Huckabee did well, raised money as he went (I think Brit Hume called it "living off the land"), got a bunch of delegates, but couldn't go for the long haul.

Not to say that will happen with Cain, but if you have him and Perry splitting the NotRomney/Conservative-ish vote, it doesn't bode well for them.

So here's your multiple-choice of the day.  Do you A) go all-in with current hotshot Cain, so he can beat Romney, B) go with Perry, who isn't doing well now, or C) resign youself to Romney?

Your answer probably depends on how electable you think Romney is against Barry.  For the record, my opinion is "not very."

59 I noticed that Mr. Cain's pants creases were, shall we say, less than ideal.

60 My entire family moved quickly onto the Cain train after Bachmann wents nusto and Perry flamed out. He's got a lot of solid support amongst the base. I disagree with Cain on a few things: not a fan of the Fair Tax or his 999 plan, and I'm very unhappy that he doesn't seem to want to get up to speed on foreign policy. But, barring an epic Perry comeback or a rise for Newt, I'll vote for Cain over Romney if it comes down to that. Frankly, even though I'm a bit worried about some of Cain's issues, I actually trust him to figure things out and do what's right significantly more than I do Romney. Because I think Cain is an actual conservative at heart and I think Romney is whatever he things he needs to be to obtain political power.

61

Because I was listening to "Popular"

Why?

62 Does Herb still think 2nd amendment rights are a state issue? -or-
has he walked this idiocy back as well?

63 If the press does not treat Cain as a serious candidate-does that make them racist?

Do they think a black Republican is a mirage? Posted by: tasker at October 28, 2011 12:23 PM

No, not a mirage, a myth.  Like Sasquatch, and not the one in the private quarters at...well, never mind that.  But, they don't think he's real and they think that if they ignore him, he'll just go away.

64 @46 Now, Cain basically just said abortion is a woman's choice, and these people (who like him because he's a True Conservative, capital letters much intended) gave him a complete and total pass.

Yeah, but the reason for this likely has more to do with the fact that conservatives in the Party understand that only a complete and unmitigated imbecile actually thinks that Cain is pro-choice, regardless of how he fumbled a couple of questions. 

65

>>>Now, Cain basically just said abortion is a woman's choice, and these people (who like him because he's a True Conservative, capital letters much intended) gave him a complete and total pass.

Did they, or is it possible they haven't read much about it?

It's not like there has been a debate where this issue came up as it undoubtedly will when Santorum attacks Cain on it.

 

66 Cain has a make or break moment with his debate against Newt. If he does well, you'd be hard pressed to continue on the line of how he talks like a dumbass all the time.
Posted by: taylork
...........
yeah.. but I really doubt that Cain has an hour or more of substance.. Most of his time (short that it was) in the past debates has been exhorting people to go to his website to read the details.. and repeating generalities about 9-9-9 ad nauseum.

Newt's gonna kill him if he tries that crap.

67 I'm not for or against him.  Definitely with him in a 2 man race against Romney.

I get a bad sense of inevitability though. The conservative repubs are all for somebody else, the moderate repubs are with Romney.

68 ace- True Conservative means -you don't have a record. Or never having to say-you're sorry.

69

I clicked the video hoping it was Nada Surf's "Popular"

70 >>>I say these polls are just way off. No way Cain gets even close when it comes time to vote. Do you realize how close it is to being time to vote? It begins January 3rd. It could happen before then. One week of November is a frozen zone (no politics, it's Thanksgiving). More of that in December. For about ten days it's all Christmas. That means there's, what?, 40 days of politicking until we vote?

71 But Cain has that status, so he can say abortion is a woman's choice and people who say abortion is one of their top two or three issues just ignore that. Because he's a True Conservative, so we know what's In His Heart (TM), and it doesn't matter what might pop out of his mouth.

This is part of what drives me nuts, too.

I always believed Conservatives voted with their heads while Liberals voted with their guts.  With Cain this doesn't seem to be true (of course, the votes aren't actually in, yet, either).

This is why I keep coming back to the point: Cain has no History.  He has never been in elected office, so we have no idea how he will behave once there.  He might even have the absolute best of intentions, and then just completely wilt under the stress- we do not know.  And, yet, people want to "roll the dice" on Cain.

72

Because I was listening to "Popular"

Why?

Posted by: garrett at October 28, 2011 12:31 PM (tGJEX)

Because you can only listen to the Original Broadway Cast Soundtrack of Cats so many times before the neighbors start calling the cops.

73

OT...

Recently, students from the University of Ohio launched a campaign against costumes that stereotype cultures. It didn't seem to sit well with Americans, specifically the part of America that's on the internet. It has been deemed 'Butthurt Halloween'.

http://tinyurl.com/3uhc6m5

74 I agree with the above that Cain got the Palinistas.  You can tell by the emotionalism of some of his supporters that this is the case.

He isn't going to win.  While most of the GOP primary electorate is conservative, only a minority is either "movement conservative" or an activist.  And then, most of the movement types were ready for Perry, only to have him stumble.  Cain's support is coming more from the populist talk-radio segment, which is important, but can't win a nomination on its own.

He has no infrastructure and almost no campaign.  His signature policy proposal is wanting, and frequently is incoherent on important issues.  I don't want to run him down too much, he's a friendly, engaging guy, but how is he qualified to be the President of the United States?

75 I'd like to think that nominating Mitt would be the floor in our stupidity level but nominating Cain would crash right though that into the granite below the sub-basement.

On the other hand, I don't recall Huckabee winning the nomination so there's that.

76 Uh, how? Cain's voters, I'm pretty sure, include lots of social cons (he seems to have gotten most of the Palinistas).


So where did Perry's supporters go? To Cain. If it comes down to a choice between Perry and Romney, they're not going to Romney.

Cain will blow it, it's inevitable.

If Perry is a lost cause, and Cain is such a threat, why is Mitt busily producing attack ads against Perry?

77 >>>Cain has a make or break moment with his debate against Newt. If he does well, you'd be hard pressed to continue on the line of how he talks like a dumbass all the time.

And if he does poorly, Cain's fans will simply dismiss the performance as "that Beltway slickster Newt talking rings of lies around our good ol' authentic Herman." 

Haven't you read the back-and-forths that Allahpundit has been having with people at Hot Air in the "yet another massive Cain gaffe" threads?  It's abundantly clear that the people who support him have shut their minds off completely to rational thought.  It's all about "we want the bizarro Obama -- inspiring black guy with no political resume but he's CONSERVATIVE(-ish) this time! -- and nuthin' is gonna stop us."

78 >>>Yeah, but the reason for this likely has more to do with the fact that conservatives in the Party understand that only a complete and unmitigated imbecile actually thinks that Cain is pro-choice, regardless of how he fumbled a couple of questions. yes, by all means, ignore what he actually says, because you know What's In His Heart (TM). On the other hand, a NOT True Conservative like Perry is sunk by what he says. Because in that case we know what he says actually reflects What's In His Heart (TM), and we just know that, because.

79 I think you're overthinking this. Cain is the "not Romney". Perry's floundering. I hope he turns it around. He'd be the sensible choice. But the not-Romney vote has to get behind someone.

80 62 Because I was listening to "Popular"

Why?

Because my little yub-yub likes to listen to show tunes in the morning because - you know. It makes him feel pretty.

81 No Cain cant but Sarah Palin can Run Sarah RUN!!!!!!!

82 Because I think Cain is an actual conservative at heart Mandy what is the #1 reason for you feeling this way about Cain?

83
I completely understand Ace's frustration, though.
Not just with Cain, with all of them.

They're prone to say amateurish stupid shit. They have no excuse.

a) 75% of their fuck-ups are easily avoidable if they i) did their homework and ii) put a half-second's thought into what they're about to say before they say it.

b) There is no B. Fuck B.

84 Is it too late for Jim DeMint to jump in the race?

85 On the fund raising, people seem to forget how much damage Huckabee did and he only raised 15 million dollars if I remember correctly versus Romney's 100 million(some of which was self funded)

86 Posted by: Mandy P. refuses to watch the SCOAMF at October 28, 2011 12:30 PM (qFpRI)

Okay, here's a question:  Romney, Cain, and Perry are all on the ballot.  Do you vote for Perry, or Cain?  Why? (assume the election is today)

87 "Popular" is a funny song. I heard it when I watched a documentary on Netflix. One of the rhymes makes me laugh. I don't really listen to Broadway showtunes (except some of the songs from Chicago, which I know only from the movie) but every once in while I hear them in other venues. What can I say, it's a funny song. The rhymes are clever.

88

The left would love to run against Herman Cain:

"Cain wants to give tax breaks to the Rich 1%"

"Cain wants to tax the Poor who are out of work"

"Cain is a millionaire corporatist"

The lib-media are hanging back right now, not saying much about Cain at all, in hopes that he will be our gift to them.

I like Herman Cain. He's a nice guy, I think. .....But he would get torn to pieces in the general. ....Somewhere out there are some ex-employees of Cain, who would be willing to get famous saying whatever the media wants them to say. Count on it.

So I'm sticking with Perry. He's the one with the best record, and the most conservative one in the race.

89 Someone's "thinking muscles" may not be quite as strong as he thinks they are. All these allegedly smart guys who do all the right things (as defined by our political establishment, also allegedly smart guys) HAVE BROUGHT US TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY. So the advice of smart political types is just a bit suspect. Hey, let's keep doing what we've been doing! This time, it'll work out for sure! It might be time for a dumbass. Or at least, someone who all the smart guys think is a dumbass. I don't care one way or another about Cain, BTW. I'll vote for whoever the GOP nominee is. Unless it's RON PAUL!

90 Do you vote for Perry, or Cain?  Why?
I vote for Perry because he seems to be a slight bit less retarded than Cain.

91 >>>I completely understand Ace's frustration, though. Not just with Cain, with all of them. >>>They're prone to say amateurish stupid shit. They have no excuse. You got that right. I am very frustrated with Perry's own Stupid Shit Stuff. As I've said over and over. I'm just perplexed why only *some* Stupid Shit seems to count.

92

It was pointed out up thread and has been in the sidebar as well, Cain is on record saying states should be able to restrict gun ownership.

So we've got a true conservative who has violated 2 of the biggest issues in the conservative movement, guns and abortion.

How is this being explained away?

93 I think the other thing that happened is- The racist rock. Cain was the media's go to guy on that issue- and Cain got the Republicans scared shitless of looking racist-macaca vote. Maybe...I could be wrong.

94 Fuck B.

Done and done.

95 >>>Do you realize how close it is to being time to vote?

>>>It begins January 3rd. It could happen before then.

>>>One week of November is a frozen zone (no politics, it's Thanksgiving). More of that in December. For about ten days it's all Christmas.

>>>That means there's, what?, 40 days of politicking until we vote?

And Howard Dean was leading solidly in Iowa right up until the day of the actual vote, whereupon he collapsed. 

I think Chi-Town Jerry has an actual point here, and it's one that's bolstered by that interesting focus group Dan Balz of the WaPo wrote about the other day (I'm sure everyone here has read the article -- we all seem to consume the same media).  Everybody LIKES Herman Cain, and in a primary seasons where people are dissatisfied with the options on offer, that translates into nominal 'support' in the polls.  But I honestly do think it will evaporate on election day, for the most part (maybe not in IA, but there's no way he gets the nomination).  That article ended with a fascinating bit that supports my point: all the people in the room said they liked Cain, and wanted to know more about him, but when the question was asked "would you feel comfortable with this guy in the White House?" NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON raised their hands.  Not one, not even the hardcore conservatives who had declared that they were, supposedly, Cain supporters in the primary. 

Telling.  I really do think it's a nominal protest, and when the time comes to actually cast a vote, they'll drift either to Romney or maybe Perry.  But I really think Perry's deader than disco at this point.

96 What's worse, A semi-bumbling honorable man in the White House or a self-serving snake? Oh, look. I just wrote a haiku, kind of.

97

Forget the Flaming Skull.  ItÂ’s quickly being replaced by the “Mika Brzenzinski Eye Roll” of Ace for people deemed unqualified to hold a position currently occupied by a Stuttering Clusterfuck of a Miserable Failure.

98 >>So where did Perry's supporters go? To Cain. If it comes down to a choice between Perry and Romney, they're not going to Romney. Some are. >Prominent social conservative Maureen Mooney tells WMURPoliticalScoop.com she is endorsing Mitt RomneyÂ’s presidential campaign, even months after she was among a very small group who flew from New Hampshire to Texas to encourage Rick Perry to run for president. http://tinyurl.com/455arpj And then there's Jeff Miller, one of the staunchest conservatives in the House, who just endorsed Romney today. Yea, I know, they are all RINOs.

99 But-Perry hasn't addressed the issue during the debates -,i>and- Cains' votes went up and Perry's down at that time like a damn seesaw.

100 >>>Because I think Cain is an actual conservative at heart as I said, it's about What's In His Heart (TM), and some people think (for reasons I don't understand) that they have a good empathetic scanning ability on this count.

101 This argument from the position of non-rational granting of Status is driving me apeshit.

Imagine what it's doing outside our circles.  Seriously, isn't that how Obama got elected, after all?

If it means Cain gets sworn in as #45, I will feast on the delicious irony.  (I'll also hide out in a basement with a stockpile of tequila for the remainder of 2013, on account of God Knows What happening subsequently, but I may be doing that regardless at this rate.)

102 It was pointed out up thread and has been in the sidebar as well, Cain is on record saying states should be able to restrict gun ownership.

This.

103 For the record, I also don't think the presidency should be an entry-level position. For Cain or anyone else. On the other hand, going with the approved political types hasn't exactly worked out well.

104 er, I meant Cain's polling numbers.

105

Perry doesn't need to attack Cain. He just waits for the flame out and then Cain's supporters move back to Perry.

Yeah, that's the strategy, I'm sure.  And its stupid.  Waiting for the flame-out is codeword for not taking Cain seriously.  Perry's campaign is buying into the elite consensus that Cain is not a serious candidate.

The elite consensus is wrong.

Oh, and this semi-Cain supporter won't be moving back to Perry because I never liked him in the first place.  I knew he was an incompetent cowboy crony capitalist who wanted to replace the American people with immigrants before he jumped in.*

 

*Some exaggeration, I admit.  A little.  About 2 ccs of Gardasil's worth.

106 HOLD  FAST

107

I think this sums up the support for cain

 

http://tinyurl.com/65kmpge

108 It really comes down to an odd sort of "anti-incumbent" feeling.

Mitt, because he's been around the levers of power for so long, feels like an incumbent -- even though his actual record doesn't support this.

Perry, because he's besieged by the EPA in Texas, seems like an outsider -- even though he's been an elected official for a big chunk of his adult life.

Cain is taking pains to avoid looking like a "politician" -- though he's been on the Fed.

Newt is tarred as being an "insider" -- despite having been out of office since the 90s.

109 Too bad for Ed Rollins he already backed Bachmann. You know he'd be jumping on this bandwagon by now if he had not already taken on a client. I see the same problems with Cain as Ace, Perry is not exactly projecting confidence in his little grey cells. Worse, often he just gives me the creeps. He comes across as a bad actor playing a villian in a Lifetime Channel movie. Fuck it. Let's just go with Mr. Default and move on to picking Senate candidates.

110 Posted by: Ben at October 28, 2011 12:38 PM (wuv1c)

Because base conservatives want someone who is big on emotionally satisfying rhetoric.

111 87

I vote for Newt because at this same time in '07 Fred Thompson was the new savior.

112 Food for thought re Cain:

“Do you think this person could be president of the United States?” he asked. “Is anybody willing to raise your hand and say, ‘I would be comfortable if he became the next president of the United States?’

Not a hand went up.

_{(link to WaPo)}

113 I say these polls are just way off.  No way Cain gets even close when it comes time to vote.

That's what I think.  Cain is so likeable and charismatic, that you can't help but say, "Yeah, Cain, why not?"

But trust me, things get serious in the early states as the caucuses/primaries come around and GOP voters will be wary of a man whose only electoral experience is losing a GOP Senate primary -- badly.

114
Part of me wants to see Cain vs Obama because the debates would be comedy for the ages.

Cain is a great man, but he's as full of shit as Obama. Both of them will be on both sides of every issue. The only difference is that it won't be intentional on Cain's part.

115 >> Because I was listening to "Popular" Whoa. Man Card, hand it over.

116

 I worry Cain would implode on the campaign trail.  Whoever the candidate is, they are going to be hit hard by the media, worse than we were in 2008.

Having someone who speaks off the cuff might result in a second Obama term.

117

@79 yes, by all means, ignore what he actually says, because you know What's In His Heart (TM).

On the other hand, a NOT True Conservative like Perry is sunk by what he says. Because in that case we know what he says actually reflects What's In His Heart (TM), and we just know that, because.

Ace, don't be a retread, okay?

Cain has said, time and time again, that he is "100% pro-life," regardless of a couple of fumbled answers which are being heavily spun by opponents of his campaign.

And yes, Perry is sunk by what he has said, as well.  The guy's soft on illegals.  If you actually believe in the rule of law, and in silly concepts like "not giving people incentives to break our laws and violate our sovereignty," then you're "heartless."  Couple that with all the forced Gardasil cronyism, and the Trans-Texas corridor nonsense, you get a picture developing of a guy who isn't really with the average Joe - whether you want to laughlingly call him the "NOT True Conservative" or not.  I have some real trouble trusting this guy.  At least with Cain, bumblelips that he might be, he's a real person.  He wasn't manufactured by Mattel Corp. like Perry.

118 I linked an analysis from Forbes here a couple days ago titled roughly Cain Can Win. In summary, it's the Tea Party. They gave Bachmann a big bump first, then Perry -- and they flamed out pretty bad. Cain is now drawing the attention. Look at the polls on the TPers and Romney; they think he sucks.
 
Why can he win? The TPers are grassroots organized, they VOTE, and they work at getting out the vote. It is this factor that the R elites continue to discount, to their peril.

119 Let's just go with Mr. Default and move on to picking Senate candidates.

F That noise.  Unless you think we can get 65+ Solidly Conservative Senators in '12.  Which I don't.

The repeal of ObamaCare will take the President fighting and expending political capital.  I have less than no faith that Romney would do that.

120 Its weird, but I actually think political experience is more important when running for senate or state senate, than president or governor.  Negotiating, legislating vs leadership, decision making.

121

How I see it... Cain is the current Anti Romney, just as whoever gets the nod is the anti Obama...

But its still the same old, our guy is less bad meme working...

Prediction? Cain flames out once enough attention is on him, and all his warts are shown.

People are looking for a Leader, not just Less Bad.....

122 Answer: People are dying/aching/salivating for someone/ANYONE that tells it like it is...speaks their mind and nobody else's.
So he says some stupid shit...who the fuck doesn't!?!?
He is the REAL DEAL!!!
I share your concerns but bring it Herman!!!!!

123 111 Too bad for Ed Rollins he already backed Bachmann. You know he'd be jumping on this bandwagon by now if he had not already taken on a client.

He quit her a long time ago.  If you read (not so hard) between the lines, she wasn't listening to his advice.  Which, in the case of Bachmann, she should have done.

It is rare for Rollins to be right.

124

The Romney cant get over 25% myth us so lazy and wrong.

He busted 30% in many polls. And all the candidate are well known now after so many debates. One could say the same about Cain - he cant break 25% or Perry - he cant break 10%.

125 We have to choose between the least offensive candidates. Cain, at this point is the least offensive. Mitt, on the other hand just sucks, and will continue to suck until the mountains fall into the sea, until the sun burns out, until Helen Thomas gets a pink spread in Hustler.

126
Cain is a great man.
But he's a shitty awful politician

(Which is part of the reason he's so darn likable.)

127 Wasn't it just two days ago that Ace was saying Romney had it all wrapped up?

128 how much does the Bradley Effect factor into Cain's polling? If it still even exists.

129 Whoa. Man Card, hand it over.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at October 28, 2011 12:42 PM (IRtMz)

 

Damn.  Just...damn.

130

Well, looks like the MSM and the Dems (birm) have us where they want us.  No candidate that looks credible but a RINO.

All they had to do was convert the one credible and charismatic conservative into a pariah through years of relentless slander, and then look the other way as the death threats poured in from their fanatic "base".

I'm getting really, really, pissed off at the filth we have to endure from the criminal class that styles itself as the media and the Democratic party.

131 87 Posted by: Mandy P. refuses to watch the SCOAMF at October 28, 2011 12:30 PM (qFpRI) Okay, here's a question:  Romney, Cain, and Perry are all on the ballot.  Do you vote for Perry, or Cain?  Why? (assume the election is today) Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at October 28, 2011 12:36 PM (8y9MW) Allen, I honestly don't know. I won't vote for Romney, that I do know. It's a bitch because I'm in Florida so I don't have a lot of time here. I really want our guy to be Perry. I think he's by far the best candidate as far as record goes. But I'm worried about how he would do against Obama. The debates against him WILL matter and if Perry can't hold his own we're screwed. Frankly, I think we might be screwed any way you look at it. Romney takes Obamacare off the table + his many, many other negatives = we lose. Cain is so green that I have no idea how he would fare against Obama = we probably lose. Perry can't articulate his policies worth a shit or hit an opponent on an easy lay up = we lose. I think Newt would fuck Obama up but I'm terrified we couldn't keep him on the conservative reservation. So, I'm confused. As TP the person who asked earlier why I think Cain's a conservative at heart, we get his show here and I've been listening to him for years. So, yeah, he's a conservative. for whatever reason he's had a hard time articulating it or is possibly trying to modulate his views to appear more acceptable to the middle or whatever. But over several years of shows, the only things I disagreed with him on was the Fair Tax and his initial support of TARP.

132 as I said, it's about What's In His Heart (TM), and some people think (for reasons I don't understand) that they have a good empathetic scanning ability on this count. So basically Cain has them by their empathy True Conservative divining rod...

133 and just IMAGINE the debate with the SCOAMF...Good God!!!!!!

134 If he wins the nomination we will witness a high-tech lynching that will make Thomas' look like a birthday party.

135 Ace, Still not sure what you're expecting. Perry needs to present himself better. He's the True Conservative out there, if he can't lead, people will take Cain. I agree the Elites need to take Cain seriously. They also need to realize Romney is probably the one guy who could lose next year. But they ain't gonna. Perry pulled a Fred, sadly. And I'd have voted for Fred; I'd vote for Perry. I'd vote for Cain, sure. I won't vote for Mittens.

136 Hope Iowa winner and Number 2 conservative fight on long enough to let you win enough big states (Illinois, New York, New Jersey, California) on Super Tuesday to give you enough of a delegate edge to make the math very, very hard.

Please tell me this isn't happening.

Posted by: Mallamutt,
...............
I don't know about those other states, but the RNC has ruled Illinois delegates will done proportionally.

http://tinyurl.com/3f693sv

The Republican National Committee has changed the rules - all March primaries must award presidential candidate delegates proportionally and any winner-takes-all contests must be held in April.  Anything different will result in an out-of-line state losing half of their delegate voting power at the convention.

A second place candidate in several proportional races could wield quite a bit of power going into the convention.. it still may be quite an interesting year..

137 Does the NRA support Cain?

138 I'm just perplexed why only *some* Stupid Shit seems to count.


I think Cain is getting somewhat of a free pass because, in many ways, the flubs prove to a lot of people that he not a politician.

139 >>>And yes, Perry is sunk by what he has said, as well. The guy's soft on illegals. If you actually believe in the rule of law, and in silly concepts like "not giving people incentives to break our laws and violate our sovereignty," then you're "heartless." Couple that with all the forced Gardasil cronyism, and the Trans-Texas corridor nonsense, you get a picture developing of a guy who isn't really with the average Joe - whether you want to laughlingly call him the "NOT True Conservative" or not. Ah, the fires of hate forged in the heart of a Palinista, who ate up every bullshit charge against Perry because at that time perry was a threat to the stupid bumbling diva money-grubber from Wasilla (The Only One Who Matters In America (TM)). And so, the hate was ginned up, and now Cain says stuff like "it's a woman's choice" and "we can restrict gun sales in the states" but that doesn't matter because we know What's In His Heart (TM) is Sarah 2.0.

140 Mandy do you live in the Panhandle? Do you know how that area is going? Has Bud Day endorsed anyone?

141 Cain has a make or break moment with his debate against Newt.

When is the debate? 
From what I've seen, Gingrich will either slaughter him, or invoke the slaughter rule, either way exposing him as a semi know-nothing, and that will be the beginning of the end for him, with Romney finally being grudgingly accepted by the process of elimination. 

The amusing thing is the idea that Cain, being more authentically black than Obama, would get a significant chunk of the black and liberal vote.  He would be treated as Clarence Thomas was, i.e. found guilty of apostasy and condemned.  If they could stone him, they would.

142 Who has the best message out there right now?  I could give a shit if they can't speak well, or says stupid off the cuff remarks(we have that in spades right now in the white house, and I don't denounce myself) about meaningless things.  Who's plan for the country looks the best to you so far?

143 "Annie Get Your Gun" plot is probably closer.

144

45
Show tunes on AoS!!!

---

That you even know it is a show tune leaves you suspect in my eyes

 

 

145

Once again, the Stupid Party finds itself potentially between a rock and a hard place.  Ultimately, we're going to be stuck with choosing between Perry or Romney.  So we can chose the Trans-Texas Traitor or the spiritual grandfather of ObamaCare.

Is it any surprise that conservatives are desperately looking for ANYONE who isn't Perry or Romney?

146 Part of me wants to see Cain vs Obama because the debates would be comedy for the ages.

Yeah, someone around here said it would be epic because Cain is the only candidate who can turn to Obama and retort with "n***a, please!"

Part of me would love to Newt debate Obama. Because, well, it would be Newt pretty much ass raping Obama.

147 But I'm worried about how he would do against Obama. The debates against him WILL matter and if Perry can't hold his own we're screwed.

Okay, he's already doing better in the debates, so I'm not nearly as worried about that as I was a few weeks ago, but do you really think Cain will do any better?  Seriously?  Try to defend raising taxes on half the country to independents, when the President will claim (and will be backed up by the media, even though its a lie) to have given a "tax cut" to "97% of Americans."  And the media won't let the inexperienced guy off the hook, this time.

If Perry is the guy for the job, he's the guy for the job.  Let tomorrow worry about itself, as it were.

148 Trans-Texas Traitor


Hey, here's a thought. Try being informed rather than just opinionated.

149

>>>Yeah, that's the strategy, I'm sure.  And its stupid.  Waiting for the flame-out is codeword for not taking Cain seriously.  Perry's campaign is buying into the elite consensus that Cain is not a serious candidate.

>>>The elite consensus is wrong.

I think there's a second calculation at play here:

Attacking Cain is a suicide mission, just as attacking Palin would have been.  Because Cain is so irrationally beloved by his fans -- a love that is deeply unmoored from rational understanding -- they would react with rage and hatred towards whoever tore him down.  Perry already has a "bully" problem with his image; you think he's going to compound that by pissing off the very segment of voters (Cain fans) he desperately needs to gain back by attacking their New Black Messiah? No way.

Romney is in a slightly different position.  He too cannot afford to attack Cain right now. (Look at how people react when Romney goes after ANYONE: regardless of the reasons or justification for it, it's simply treated as further proof that he's scum and Judas and a liberal -- again people, including several people here, react irrationally and with a preconceived dislike rather than with any sense of fair analysis.)  But because Cain's vote and his vote are largely drawing from different segments of the base, he can afford to hover above the fray and either wait for an implosion or later solidify the "we don't want to nominate an incompetent idiot" vote, which will be greater than whatever percentage Cain can muster.

150 As TP the person who asked earlier why I think Cain's a conservative at heart, we get his show here and I've been listening to him for years. OK gotcha. The weird thing is-if he has had a show for years-his answer about releasing all of the *hostages* at Guantanamo-for one US service member being held hostage was abysmal. And he did make that mistake of calling the prisoners at Gitmo-"hostages". Had any of the other Republican candidates had done that-there would have been all kinds of Freudian analysis of that 'mistake".

151
And if Cain were to win the nomination?  Well then, the Republican apparatchiks that run the party will simply cut his political tendons and make him fall in the general.

This is, after all, the same party that threw away a shot at taking control of the Senate in 2008 by not only refusing to help the "outsiders" that managed to primary out the favored few, but actively worked against their own party's nominees in favor of the old boy's network.

Sen. Murkowski, anyone?

152 Romney, Cain or Perry would all be 10x better than Obama. I prefer Perry. I'm worried Romney would wuss out and turn to the left in office. I'm worried Cain would do something stupid cause ... I think he's nice and means well and has good instincts, but doesn't seem interested in learning much and he's old, which doesn't imply his ability or desire to learn is going to improve going forward. My main worry about Perry is he'll get crushed in the debates and lose since he's proven that ... he sucks at debates. Or at least he sucks at standing. Which is understandable since many people, myself included do too. I could have a debate while sitting, or while walking, but I can't stand still for two hours without my legs just killing me and getting all foggy-headed. Bush had the same thing. He'd clearly get visibly tired and foggy-headed as the debates wore on. Even though Bush was a great athlete for his age. Bush and Perry would both probably be better debaters if they were on a treadmill or exercycle the whole debate. Cheney was smart. He knew he couldn't stand for 2 hours and debate. So he only agreed to sit-down debates.

153

“…stupid bumbling diva money-grubber from Wasilla…”

 

Got a little latent anger going on?

154
Sounds like a lot, right?

Yeah, kinda does.
Everyone seems to conveniently forget Romney's X-factor: Ground Game.

If you think Mitt Romney has been doing nothing except gnashing his teeth and pulling his pud for the last 3 years, you think wrongly. He's been building support on the ground.

We'll soon see if it pays dividends for Mitt or not.

155 For whatever it means, for what it's worth- I'm in the heart of Georgia and when I talk to people about all the other candidates they hem & they haw.

Mention Cain's name? They light up.

I personally love the guy but think a lot of his ideas are wrong. He's still a better man than Zer0...

156

@143 Ah, the fires of hate forged in the heart of a Palinista, who ate up every bullshit charge against Perry because at that time perry was a threat to the stupid bumbling diva money-grubber from Wasilla (The Only One Who Matters In America (TM)).

Actually, until recently, I was a more-or-less Perry supporter who actually got kicked off of Free Republic for, in part, being such a thorn in the side of the Palinstinians (the other part was my refusal to give them a pass on their rampant copyright theft from bloggers, but that's another matter for another day).  Despite his many flaws, I was willing to chalk them up to "nobody's perfect" and go with it.  Until he out and out told people that they couldn't disagree with him on the immigration issue without being heartless racists.  Bye Ricky, hardly knew ya.

But, Ace, I guess it's easier for you to put the ass in assume than to accept that people don't like your preferred candidate.

 

157 As TP the person who asked earlier why I think Cain's a conservative at heart, we get his show here and I've been listening to him for years.

This is another problem, for me.  For someone who was in talk radio for several years, he seems poorly informed.  He also communicates verbally for a living, but we're just going to give some major verbal gaffes?

158

Cain couldn't win a Senate race in Georgia. ....What has changed since then? Could he even win his home state today?

And if Cain is sooo conservative....could someone explain to me how his stand on 'Opportunity Zones' is a conservative stance?

159 >>Romney is in a slightly different position. He too cannot afford to attack Cain right now. Actually, they are very good friends. Cain very prominently endorsed Romney last election. But Romney still did confront Cain on his 999 plan during the last debate. Still, it's odd that a True Conservative such as Cain would endorse such a big RINO as Romney.

160 The one thing I will say about Perry is I think he would win the whole of the south without even trying, leaving him to campaign in alot fewer states.

161

100% on board with Cain. ABR.

Guy is a serious, genuine conservative and a ham sandwich could beat Obama.

162 This is the thing with Cain:

999 is a shitty plan. He says things that are Newt-esque in that they are off the cuff and decidedly not products of the incessant PR squads that dominate the GOP. That's a great thing. But they are un-Newt-esque in that they are not very smart most of the time.

And sure, he has no Foreign Policy experience. And he has very few constituents in power that can help him get elected.

All that being said...

(1) he's not Romney.

(2) if a Republican wins the White House they are also sure to win the Senate and keep the House. That means most of the legislative momentum will come from the Tea Party affiliated members of the House. I can't see Cain vetoing a flat tax bill because he wants his own plan to go through. I can see Romney triangulating against the House. Hell I am positive he would.

(3) I like that Cain doesn't act like he knows everything about everything like every other candidate in modern times. I think he'll bring in competent secretaries and advisers like any good leader does.

163

And so, the hate was ginned up, and now Cain says stuff like "it's a woman's choice" and "we can restrict gun sales in the states" but that doesn't matter because we know What's In His Heart (TM) is Sarah 2.0.

Ace, honestly, for a guy who isn't supposed to be ruled by emotion, you're being pretty pissy and petty.

Calm down, embrace the suck.

164 Romney does all the technical aspects of politicking right ... and yet can't rise any higher than 25% in polls. Should I go with darker hair?

165

Got a little latent anger going on?

Posted by: jwest at October 28, 2011 12:51 PM (qeYI9)

 

You mad, bro?

166 144 Mandy do you live in the Panhandle? Do you know how that area is going? Has Bud Day endorsed anyone? Posted by: tasker at October 28, 2011 12:46 PM (rJVPU) No, I'm in Central Florida. Most of the fam is in Jacksonville and they're all in the tank for Cain. I get the feeling that Rick Scott really wants to endorse Perry, though. That might help.

167

I want to have faith in the guy. I do. And, I like him.

I just don't want him to be president.

168

1. Let the conservatives fight it out in Iowa. Don't embarress yourself.

2. Win New Hampshire.

3. Win South Carolina by 1 vote why Iowa winner and Number 2 conservative kill each other trying to stay alive.

4. Hope Iowa winner and Number 2 conservative fight on long enough to let you win enough big states (Illinois, New York, New Jersey, California) on Super Tuesday to give you enough of a delegate edge to make the math very, very hard.

Please tell me this isn't happening.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at October 28, 2011 12:36 PM (OWjjx)

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Not really relevant, the first three primaries/caucuses are proportional.  The "winner" is relevant only in fundraising and in media perceptions.

4. Probably.

Basically, Romney wants it a 3-man race as long as possible and as long as that third man is not Huntsman.

But let me really lay it out for everybody: It isn't the "GOP establishment" or RINOs that are going to lead to a Romney nomination.

We have met the enemy and they is us.

Conservatives are going to split the vote...again, but this time it's over fantasy candidates.

Cain will not win the nomination.  Romney will be in the race until the end, so if it's Cain vs. Romney, Romney will destroy him.  Voters will be wary of his lack of experience and he will fizzle.  Newt is not going to get it either. Ron Paul is a joke and nobody else is a serious contender at this point.

If you don't like Perry or Romney, tough, because one of them will get the nomination.  Pick one.  And if you think Perry is not a sufficient alternative to Romney, then you have made your choice.

And that's fine, but it's not the GOP establishment or the RINOs forcing this down our throats, it's conservatives who keep entertaining fantasy candidates.

169

@154 Hey, here's a thought. Try being informed rather than just opinionated.

Hey, here's a thought, why not mind your own business instead of being an idiot?

170

Ace, honestly, for a guy who isn't supposed to be ruled by emotion, you're being pretty pissy and petty.

When did Ace become a Vulcan?

171

>>>Cain couldn't win a Senate race in Georgia. ....What has changed since then? Could he even win his home state today?

 

No

 

Cain couldn't win a Republican Primary for a Senate seat in Georgia.

 

Even worse.

172 Ace, if you come out with "Surrey with a Fringe on Top" or something we're going to have to make you kill a Kodiak grizzly bear with nothing but a pocket knife and a copy of the collected speeches of Newt Gingrich, got it?

173
Hey, here's a thought, why not mind your own business instead of being an idiot?

Excellent rejoinder, Mr Shakespeare!

174

@164 And if Cain is sooo conservative....could someone explain to me how his stand on 'Opportunity Zones' is a conservative stance?

I dunno - you'd have to ask arch-leftie Jack Kemp about that.

175
Here's a proper show tune called "pricks up front" by the guy that did "white trash wins lotto".

Seems fitting.

176 Cain seems willing to make deep, transformative reforms to a badly dysfunctional Government. Romney only wants to make a few minor adjustments to a badly dysfunctional Government.

This is why Cain is winning, despite Romney checking all the boxes for what a viable nominee should be.

177 Has Cain ever shot a gun?

178 I still think Newt can make this very interesting.

179 I'm just perplexed why only *some* Stupid Shit seems to count.

Posted by: ace at October 28, 2011 12:37 PM (nj1bB)

This one I have figured out.  Since Cain isn't a typical politician, when he makes gaffes, he's being refreshingly honest.  Since Perry is a typical politician, he's held to the standard of glib perfection that Romney has set.

180

Cain appears to be a time bomb, I just hope he goes off before the primaries and not after.

181 The fundamental problem is that none of the serious candidate are entirely attractive to a conservative who actually wants to see conservative change in the federal government.

Romney may be electable, but at best he will maintain the status quo if elected.

Perry and Gingrich both have *serious* electability issues and have made questionable political decisions from a conservative viewpoint.

So that leaves Cain. Yeah, he's said stupid stuff, but he's actually evidenced a backbone in the political fight, and he seems electable - the State Media *will* shoot itself in the foot when they try and attack him. It will be like the racism deployed against C. Rice squared.

Am I happy about this state of affairs? No. But right now a vote for Cain seems the most likely one to actually change the federal government.

If we can get a solid movement conservative into the race at this late hour, I'm all for it. But I don't think that is going to happen.

182

It'd be nice if a poll asked who would be acceptable nominees.

Knowing people's first choices is well and good, but I really have no idea what my fellow Republicans are thinking. I don't know that most Republicans don't want Romney to be the party's standard bearer. (Where did you get that from?) Perry might be polling at 6% but is a good-enough second choice for 85%. Cain may poll at 30% but is hated by 65%. I don't know.

Really: I just don't know. Is there anything out there that can shed better light on this?

183

2010 not 2008.  Sometimes all of Life's disappointments run together.

184 186 I still think Newt can make this very interesting.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at October 28, 2011 12:57 PM (JYheX)

He sure could, if he would release the sex tape of him and Pelosi on that couch.

185

Why are the few remaining Perry supporters clinging to the notion that he isnÂ’t totally out of contention for the nomination?

 

People are looking for someone who believes in and can articulate a conservative vision for the future.  The job of the next president is to sell that vision to the public.  Perry has shown heÂ’s simply not up to that task.  Cain has the salesmanship, but no one seriously thinks he can get elected.

 

WeÂ’re headed for a brokered convention, where the different factions will need to come together on one person.  Better start figuring out who thatÂ’s going to be.

186 @ 143

   Don't look now, but the misogny is showing again. Along with the fact that was a pretty shitty thing to say.

187 Cain could win the nomination today but he will eventually be exposed as a total fraud.

His main claim to fame as CEO of Godfathers is all smoke and mirrors  The company lost market share while he ran it as 20% of its locations closed.  His "turnaround" consisted of cutting ingredient costs while the remaining stores fought better run competitors.  The parent company eventually dumped Godfathers rather than keep a loser on its balance sheet as a non-performing asset.

The remainder of Cain's resume is spotty as well.  For 15 years he has been an inspirational speaker, talk show host, and gospel recording artist.

Enjoy him while he lasts.

188

So, have we also done away with the beauty contestant vote and then the vote for who is going to be the delegates and gone straight to the beauty contest...thanks.

Posted by: Mallamutt
..........
It's a real mess.. My boss is quite involved in state politics and he seems to think no one is sure of anything, even at this late stage.  Cripes!

189 Also, what's with Ron Paul! talking about a 3rd party run? He won't pledge not to run as a 3rd party. That should be a requirement to participate in a Republican presidential debate. Otherwise it's just free advertising for a potential traitor.

190

@177 When did Ace become a Vulcan?

Don't make him go all Ponn Farr on you.

191 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at October 28, 2011 12:49 PM (8y9MW) Well, I guess part of my confusion is me trying to do a little strategery with my primary vote. A huge part of why we got McCain last time around was that the conservative vote was split up between everyone else. And being in an early state, I figure if we consolidate around one of the more conservative candidates early on we can knock Romney out. So, I'm trying to figure out who is in the best position to beat Romney. I want it to be Perry and am hoping that things will have changed enough in the next few months that that is the case.

192 The other thing at play here and it needs mentioning... The psychology of those that enter journalism. They see themselves as the vigilantes for the "helpless"- whatever. *If* you listen to the liberal media...their is a strong undercurrent of what they really hate about Rick Perry... and why they feel justified in engaging in unfair reporting-such as four unnamed sources about when the damn rock was taken care of- Rick Perry is the Executive of a state that engages in - the Death Penalty. *If* you listen to Ben Smith of Politico on BloggingHeads he mentions that Rick Perry executed an innocent man about every other line. As if -Rick Perry conducted that all by himself -outside the rule of law. The liberal media is absolutely fixated on that it's part of their psychological make- up. And they are going to punish Rick Perry for that in the Court of Public Opinion. They don't care how they do it-the end justifies the means-they are Machiavellian like that.

193

ron paul is a creepy old man

194 Can can win.  This season is just weird and things fell into place just right for him.  The rank and file doesn't want Romney, Perry flamed out and Bachman and Paul are nuts.  Santorum (my preferred choice) just didn't catch fire and the time is probably about past to change that.  So if you are a conservative your choice is Cain or Newt.  Newt is an erratic genius with a ton of baggage and Cain is a great speaker who would do just fine as POTUS because he is basically 'right' and would surround himself with solid conservatives who would make sure he was informed before he had to decide anything important.  So unless something upsets that calculus it is a test of strength between the conservatives and the country clubbers + the Dems who will be running Operation Chaos on us to get Romney on the grounds they are pretty sure they can whip him.

In the end the most important part of an Administration isn't the POTUS him/herself but the people they have around them.  Romney would surround himself with old Bush retreads, east coast elites, everybody with proper Harvard, Yale and Princeton degrees, proper Wall Street resumes, etc.  Cain would be more likely to put Bolton in at State to clean out Foggy Bottom.  Romney would mitigate the disaster of the SCoaMF but leave most his policies intact, Cain would actually roll most of it back and might even leave the country better off than Jan 20, 2009.

That leaves electibility.  Most conservatives (foolishly) think the 2012 election will turn on the economy, thus not only can Cain win, a ham sandwich can win in that environment so we have an opportunity to go for a bold choice instead of a pastel shadow.  Of course since Obama loses an election on the economy attention will turn to foreign policy in summer of 2012, count on it.  Hope our nominee is prepared to convince the country to switch leaders in wartime, something that would be unprecedented.

195 Bottom line for me is that I like the guy. I trust him right or wrong and I don't feel that way about any of the other guys running. When you boil it down that is what everyone makes their decision based on. All of the argument and logic we defend our positions with is basically rationalization. He can win the nomination. He can win the election. IMHO

196

>>>100% on board with Cain. ABR.

>>>Guy is a serious, genuine conservative and a ham sandwich could beat Obama.

But all the evidence -- literally ALL OF THE EVIDENCE -- so far indicates the exact opposite:  Cain is NOT a serious, genuine conservative (based on his many, many statements, his silly tax plan, his complete lack of any knowledge relevant to the President's job, and his half-assed organization).  And a ham sandwich most assuredly could NOT beat Obama next year, unless you think that every poll and every poll analysis ever done over the past year or so is just a miserable MSM lie.

How can you so confidently assert two things which are provably false, with reams of evidence?  Is this the purest possible manifestation of the "Ima shut my brain off, clap my hands, and pray Cain into the Presidency!" idiocy that Ace is talking about, or is this just clever parody?

197 He sure could, if he would release the sex tape of him and Pelosi on that couch. Posted by: The Remorseless Chicken of War at October 28, 2011 12:58 PM (OlN4e) Some things can never be unseen....

198 and Megyn Kelly comes through with the tight black shirt.

199 Since Cain isn't a typical politician, when he makes gaffes, he's being refreshingly honest.

"Refreshingly Honest" sounds like a tag line for a nature drink.

200 "but he will eventually be exposed as a total fraud." Is this in contrast to Mr. Honesty, Mitt Romney?

201

He sure could, if he would release the sex tape of him and Pelosi on that couch.

Dude! It's 1:00 here. I just ate lunch!

202 Jeff B - I have to agree that Ronmey is going to win the nomination and then Obama is going to mop the floor with him.  There is no way Cain or Perry are going to actually get the votes in the primary needed to unseat Mittens.  We are stuck with Dole again and are going to get another 4 of the Joker.

203

jeff b.

 

did you take your sedative? if you did, it's not working

204

"Refreshingly Honest" sounds like a tag line for a nature drink.

Or a natural drunk

205

Cain CAN win the nomination which I find unfortunate because I have my doubts he can win in the general, he can end up Goldwater 2012 version (minus the huge landslide).

both Romney and Perry supporters (the few left) have laughed at Cain as Huckabee 2.0 I see no evidence of that. Cain is up nationally, is doing better then CNN claims in the 1st couple states and leads in later states like OHIO, ILLINOIS, & WISCONSIN. States he must have to try and get the nod over a Romney. He even leads in most southern and midwest states where Perry was seen as the likely one to grab those.

Even after gaffes and what I thought was a bad debate for him, he is still doing fine. He even polls not so bad againt Obama. he loses to Obama in close margins and brings him below 50% (something Perry is now failing to do except in Rasmussen polls).

I dont like it myself but Cain IS FOR REAL

he does have the Nov 9th debate hurdle though, FOREIGN POLICY IS THE SUBJECT

206

@181 Excellent rejoinder, Mr Shakespeare!

As Porklet, or something like that, said - "To be or not to be, that's what I want to know!"

207 And hey, Ace.. next time I wanna see some Ethel Merman show tunes!

208 I'm not sure what is the point of this post.  It seems to lump the people who dismiss Cain as a candidate they'd consider supporting into the same group as the so-called experts and pundits who are also dismissing him, but for reasons of "electability."  I haven't detected a lot of that latter sentiment among the group of folks here who are rejecting Cain.  In my case I looked at him, was not all that impressed by his resume, and was turned off by several of his "from the heart (or hip)" statements, including the racist rock and not appointing Muslims thing (made even worse by his weaselly back-track after kow-towing to the usual suspects). 

So is this post supposed to be an analysis of Cain's qualifications and the merits of his proposals?  If so, it would be nice to have a post of this sort about each of the candidates.  I'm not sure we've had much of anything about Newt or his tax proposal and was there ever one about Ron Paul's proposed cuts or an analysis of Perry's tax and growth plans?  (I guess maybe Gabe did one, come to think of it.)


I don't know about anyone else, but if, say, Rick Santorum really floated my boat I'd be vocally supporting him and donating to him for as long as he was a declared candidate with a real campaign.  Electability arguments at this point in time are pretty far down on my list.  We have got to hash out the arguments for and against these folks based on issues because at some point there will be a convention and we have to unite as a party to decide what our selling point in the general will be. 

209 No, I'm in Central Florida. Most of the fam is in Jacksonville and they're all in the tank for Cain. I get the feeling that Rick Scott really wants to endorse Perry, though. That might help. Thanks, Mandy. Connie Mack is also going after the Senate seat. So that is some good news.

210

Cain is not the "not Romney."  Cain is the "not politician."  Never underestimate people's desire to be part of some kind of movement.  It's feel good and right now people don't feel too good.  I did the same thing.  I liked Cain and then he made that statement about appointing Muslims and I stepped back.  But I was aboard the Cain Train for a minute too.

Not to mention that Cain has a great story.  It's like Rocky.  Why do you think people go to those movies and buy them on DVD to rewatch them 10 times?  "It's a nice house.  It stinks!"

211 He sure could, if he would release the sex tape of him and Pelosi on that couch.

Especially if he went for squeakhole.  She's need that for years.

212

>>>Bottom line for me is that I like the guy. I trust him right or wrong and I don't feel that way about any of the other guys running

I think that's the main issue here. His supporters(not all) simply like him. That's it. No actual thought involved, no analysis of his record, his policies, history, etc etc.

Just "liking" him is enough.

 

213 Does Cain still believe the Fed is as pure as the driven snow?

214

But all the evidence -- literally ALL OF THE EVIDENCE -- so far indicates the exact opposite he is not Romney therefor Romneybots reject.

FIFY.

Maybe we should have thought about that before we started trashing every single candidate except Romney as unserious and unqualified.

Deal with it. ABR.

215

OT, but I love that photo of Moochelle on Drudge. It looks so much like prison attire.

216

ABR,

then

ABO.

217 208 "but he will eventually be exposed as a total fraud."

Is this in contrast to Mr. Honesty, Mitt Romney? ----- of course,   Cain 'will be' Romney 'Has been'   quite a contrast

218 Hey, here's a thought, why not mind your own business instead of being an idiot?


Aw, name calling. How cute.

Mind my own business? Really?

I live in Texas. I used to work for TxDOT in the district ROW office. I know more than a little about the TTC project. I know a lot about ROW acquisition in Texas.

So, instead of using lame catch phrases, why don't you educate yourself somewhere other than Info Wars and Prison Planet, m'kay Alex?

219 Back from "The City". I don't think Cain is going to take the nom. I think he will go on FNS one time too many. Perry still has the money.

And sooner or later somebody is going to start talking about Romney's record.

220

10% for Perry

90% for the Not-Perry

221

Cain is in many ways the reverse of Obama.  The MSM refuse to treat him seriously where in 2006-7-8 they fawned over an undeserving Obama.  Cain has much managerial experience while Obama had none.  A person could argue that Cain, like Obama, lacks practical experience to be the POTUS.  But Obama had even less and going by the precedent the MSM established in that case Cain certainly has enough, specifically managetment experience.  And the office of POTUS is mostly a management job. 

But we all know the MSM won't treat Cain the same as they treated Obama or even feign fairness.  Their politcs won't allow for it.  (See James O'Keefe).  FYI, I'm not a Cain supporter, just bending over and pulling mindfacts out of my arse with both hands.

222

>>>That is the standard? Really? I got the Dream Ticket:

 

no no, I was making a criticism. I was saying that's the problem, that just liking him is enough when it isn't

 

We're not trying to put a list together of people we want to go drinking with, we're electing our nominee for the presidency

223 eff B - I have to agree that Ronmey is going to win the nomination and then Obama is going to mop the floor with him.  There is no way Cain or Perry are going to actually get the votes in the primary needed to unseat Mittens.  We are stuck with Dole again and are going to get another 4 of the Joker.
Posted by: Sandy Salt
..........
Oh, for cripes sakes...  8 GOP opponents ganging up on Romney cannot even put a dint in his armor.  He's done amazingly well in the debates.  Obama mop the floor with him?

Obama has one of the worst records in any presidency ever.  If Romney can't use that and pounce on him in a debate, then we deserve to lose.

No, Romney will do just fine against that joker.

224 Cripes edit:*If* you listen to the liberal media...^there^ is a strong undercurrent of what they really hate about Rick Perry... *** I'm off to get more coffee. **** Hey! Shout out to SoCalSteeler- We're going to hit Gisele in his-Brazilian-shooter!

225

Connie Mack is also going after the Senate seat.

So that is some good news.

anyone but that empty suit Nelson, however Mack will piss conservatives off on some issues

226 Ah, the fires of hate forged in the heart of a Palinista, who ate up every bullshit charge against Perry because at that time perry was a threat to the stupid bumbling diva money-grubber from Wasilla (The Only One Who Matters In America (TM)).

Posted by: ace at October 28, 2011 12:46 PM

Bullshit charges against Perry?  Really?  Did it appear to you like he could handle himself in debates, or was his stuttering failure agitprop invented by Palinistas?  How about "heartless?"  Palinistas make that up out of whole cloth?

Is it so hard for you to grasp the idea that Cain is the only candidate who doesn't seem to treat the Republican electorate like either dogshit or a minor stepping stone on the way to the White House?  There are quite a few people - myself among them - who have come to the conclusion that Cain is better than the others, simply because he's the least of all evils.  And I say this as a Perry supporter who left when I found I was supporting a man who clearly wasn't ready for prime-time.

227

>>>And sooner or later somebody is going to start talking about Romney's record.

Apparently George Will is puting together a pretty damning article on Romney, Redstate had  a little insight.

228

Romney is stuck in the 18% to 25% range (more or less).

When Bachman exits, her support splits between Cain and Perry.

When Santorum exits, his support scatters to the wind.

When Newt exits, his "traditional conservative' support goes no more than 40% to Mittens.

When Perry exits (unless he does something startling, he will not win nomination, but exit at some point after he has spent all his cash), all of his support goes to anyone not named "Mitt".

Cain only has to refrain from saying/doing, anything so over the top stupid that he becomes toxic...and by "toxic," I mean toxic to the Tea Party and to Conservatives....everyone that conservatives and tea partiers would want to support is already (by definition) toxic to the MSM and the DNC (but I repeat myself).

As for his 999 plan.....Who cares?  Really?  House Ways and Means Committee pretty much writes the tax laws....Cain can say 999, he can say "Flat Tax" he can say "excise tax" or he can say "import duties".....He can propose anything he wants, but Congress still introduces and passes the bills....

Cain already won the point on 999....he moved a flat tax style approach to our tax structure to the forefront of the debates, and something that approaches a flat tax stands a pretty good chance of becoming part of the platform....  Scrapping the insane IRS based, impenetrable tax structure that we currently have is a winner.....and he led the discussion in that direction....

In the end we will get what we get, whatever the 999 proposal might say....but the tax code will simplify and get flatter...

229

Obama has one of the worst records in any presidency ever.  If Romney can't use that and pounce on him in a debate, then we deserve to lose.

No, Romney will do just fine against that joker.

I agree

230 Romney has been running for president for 6 years and can only get 25% in the polls?

He's not inevitable.

231 I don't know if Cain would be a disaster.  There's a very strong chance he would be.  But I do know Romney would be a disaster.

In the contest of horribles, I would choose the lesser.

232

@218 Cain is not the "not Romney."  Cain is the "not politician."

That's a lot of it.  I said on here the other day that we can either have a career politician who's going to be slick, good in the debates, has plenty of staffers to hand him the answers at a moments' notice, or we can have a non-career politician, who's going to fumble questions, isn't polished, isn't slick. 

Well, we could always get Perry, too, who's a career politician who fumbles debates, drones on like a wasp's nest, isn't slick, etc.

233

No, I'm in Central Florida. Most of the fam is in Jacksonville and they're all in the tank for Cain. I get the feeling that Rick Scott really wants to endorse Perry, though. That might help.

Yeah. There's a bit of that here but with enough time that would play down. Remember, this is a town that has tolerated Romney-esque mayors for decades. We just elected our first black mayor, a democrat, and he didn't so much win as the other guy lost.

The issue is that now, thanks to earlier than ever primaries, there may not be time for it to play out.

234 No, Romney will do just fine against that joker.

Yes.  And then we'll be stuck with someone who's satisfied with managing the decline.

Do.  Not.  Want.

235 Cain seems willing to make deep, transformative reforms to a badly dysfunctional Government. Romney only wants to make a few minor adjustments to a badly dysfunctional Government.

I am starting to wonder if that is true.  It's quite possible that a very smart guy like Romney has two strategies; one for the election and one for governing.  If you consider that his career was spent making the bold decisions necessary to either start or turn around a failing company, he may surprise us all.  This is just speculation, but things might just turn out better than we think.  But then again, I'm just a bot, so you can just dismiss any optimism. 

236 >>>Jeff B - I have to agree that Ronmey is going to win the nomination and then Obama is going to mop the floor with him.  There is no way Cain or Perry are going to actually get the votes in the primary needed to unseat Mittens.  We are stuck with Dole again and are going to get another 4 of the Joker.

I don't think that at all.  I think Romney will win the nomination and then he will absolutely destroy Obama.  Obama will run (predictably) on a "Romney is a flip-flopper/Romney is a Wall Street fatcat" schtick, and it won't be able to move the dial even an inch because the voting electorate is starving right now for someone who seems COMPETENT.  They literally aren't going to give a shit about ANYTHING else.  They just want to feel like there's actually somebody to vote for who actually seems like he can lead, who has experience in succeeding at this stuff, and who isn't too scary otherwise.  That's Romney to a T.

Seriously, the "Obama will beat Romney!" stuff is pure distortionism from the perspective of the ultra-conservative base that is constitutionally incapable of understanding how deep Romney's appeal is going to be to the swing voters of America at this particular point in time.  He's not what YOU necessarily want, but he's what THEY want.

237 Herman owns his own bus!

238 >>Romney has been running for president for 6 years and can only get 25% in the polls? National polls mean exactly squat right now. They are merely name recognition indicators and they vote is split between 7 people. What matters are the numbers in the early states, the ground game, supporters and money. Lots and lots of money.

239
  So what does Romney counter Obamacare with when it inevitably arises during a debate? On his steadfast denunciation of Masscare as a failure?

240

He's not what YOU necessarily want, but he's what THEY want.

i'd have to agree with that, when the guy is making MAINE in play I gotta pay attentiuon to that

241 Herman owns his own bus!

Posted by: Your Papers Please at October 28, 2011 01:10 PM (EL+OC)

+1

242 Cain is succeeding because people see all these other career political types screwing things up and think "fuck it, we might as well try somebody new." Moreover, Cain has led the discussion. Even if you don't like 999, he got people talking about it and serious tax reform. Rick Perry may "have a record", but it took him five debates to come up with an actual *policy* idea of some sort, and before he got there, he insulted the entire GOP base using the liberal argument that every conservative hates (if you're against X you don't have a heart.) So who am I to trust? The guy with a history in politics who can't come up with an idea to save his life and who insults me for disagreeing with him, or the guy who has a history in business who came up with a plan about which I may have reservations and who flubs answers on occasion?

243

@228 So, instead of using lame catch phrases, why don't you educate yourself somewhere other than Info Wars and Prison Planet, m'kay Alex?

Okay, where would you suggest I go to "educate" myself, since working for the TxDOT somehow qualifies your *opinion* as right (which it doesn't, logically, but we'll ignore that for the moment).

244

Without reading through all the comments and acknowledging that it may have already been said, let me break down my opinion on Cain's polling success at the moment.

Last election, the perfectly-packaged, erudite, elite academic got elected by people thinking, "Hey, he's perfectly-packaged, erudite, and an elite academic.  He's obviously much smarter and capable than me or anyone else."

This time people are thinking, "Hey we elected a perfectly-packaged, erudite, elite academic and he turned out to be a Stuttering Clusterfuck of a Miserable Failure.  And the other candidates are relatively well-packaged and erudite in comparison to Cain, so they're probably going to turn out to be Stuttering Clusterfucks of Miserable Failures to (at a lesser degree).  This Cain guy is more like me, and less like them, so I support him.  The appropriate course of action this time around is to elect the total 180 from what we hve now."

245 Here's the thread I've been waiting for since Perry bombed and Cain took the lead in the polls.  It's the same story every time.  O'Donnel/Castle, Bachman/Pawlenty, Palin/anyone, and now Cain/Perry.  Ace just can't wrap his brain around why people support someone he doesn't, especially if his choice is already made.  And when Ace can't figure people out, he just automatically assigns the worst motivations he can come up with to them (Purist, Truuuuuu Conservative, irrational, anti-intellectual, reactionary, stupid, evil, etc.).  And if these people dare to disagree with him, then things will get personal.  Strap in for the ride folks, this is just the beginning.  It isn't getting any better until after the Primary is over.  And if Cain does happen to win the Primary, hold onto your hats, because this place will go into meltdown.

246 Obama will run (predictably) on a "Romney is a flip-flopper/Romney is a Wall Street fatcat" schtick, and it won't be able to move the dial even an inch because the voting electorate is starving right now for someone who seems COMPETENT.

The media will also discover Mormonism.  They will do this on their own and it will be quite disgusting.

Then...Trey Parker and Matt Stone will endorse Romney, mostly to piss off the media.

247 182

@164 And if Cain is sooo conservative....could someone explain to me how his stand on 'Opportunity Zones' is a conservative stance?

I dunno - you'd have to ask arch-leftie Jack Kemp about that.

---------

Jack Kemp? Kemp described himself as a "bleeding heart conservative". ....And his idea for 'Enterprise Zones' was to have them in every major city, not just pick and choose certain ones, in certain geographic areas....like Cain is wanting to do.

 

248

The Liberals and politically correct Repugs have assured us for years any attack on a Black man is RACIST,

Now their nonsense is gonna bite em in the ass.

Go Herman! An outsider, non ass kissing politician, for the win!

Cain vs Unable 2012

249 Seriously, the "Obama will beat Romney!" stuff is pure distortionism from the perspective of the ultra-conservative base that is constitutionally incapable of understanding how deep Romney's appeal is going to be to the swing voters of America at this particular point in time.  He's not what YOU necessarily want, but he's what THEY want.

I couldn't agree more.  I live in NoVa, and while it's anecdotal, I've talked with lots of Obama voters and independents who can see themselves voting for Romney, but neither Perry or Cain.  If O loses NoVa, he's done.

250

Basically, our choice is between competency issues (Cain), ideology issues (Romney, Perry), and sanity issues (Bachmann, Paul).

251

I don't know if Cain would be a disaster.  There's a very strong chance he would be.  But I do know Romney would be a disaster.

I would be willing to bet that Cain would far exceed Romney on the disaster front. My boss and I talk about politics quite a bit and he and his father (a very influential man here) are slightly on the Cain train. So, we sat down and I put it in terms he couldn't ignore.

I asked him how many times he has had to write a press release or craft a statement for the executives of our division to hide the fact that, when they wanted something, they simply forged ahead, with little thought to the potential pitfalls.

As CEO of struggling companies Cain would have had leeway to take great risks, with very little challenge to his ideas, because he couldn't have made things much worse. Further, he could order his subordinates to follow his commands, whether they liked it or not. As POTUS his risks are our risks and he can't simply order Congress or SCOTUS to follow his commands. He will have to work with them, at least to a certain degree, AND he will have to do it without tripping all over himself, which he is prone to do.

If he cannot articulate his message, at present, without resorting to further clarification and the defense that he was joking or misunderstood, he's gonna have a long hard battle in the general. I do not want to see that type of leadership played out in the White House.

252 Lots of Cain supporters are making a good case as to why Cain can get second-place, but he will split the vote for a while until it's Cain vs. Romney and Romney will crush him.

Republicans want to win and Cain saying something stupid will make us fearful that he could actually lose this thing.

253

Jack Kemp? Kemp described himself as a "bleeding heart conservative". ....And his idea for 'Enterprise Zones' was to have them in every major city, not just pick and choose certain ones, in certain geographic areas....like Cain is wanting to do.

 

Ahhh. Gerrymandered zones.

254

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at October 28, 2011 01:15 PM (+inic)

+1

And if Cain does happen to win the Primary, hold onto your hats, because this place will go into meltdown.

I wont I'll start pushing him over mr. 44% approval until election night

PS - where's progressoverpeace? is she/he officialy done w/ Ace's blog? I know it sucks when your guy/gal implodes but don't run away...

and still no signs of Jane?

255 Those voters who live in states without a sales tax who will now suddenly find themselves with one.

How about those already in states with a sales tax?  I pay 8.25% in sales taxes right now.  17.25% does not exactly warm the cockles of my heart.  Especially when you consider the fact that, as soon as Democrats get hold of it, it will be 12% or something.

256

@260 Jack Kemp? Kemp described himself as a "bleeding heart conservative". ....And his idea for 'Enterprise Zones' was to have them in every major city, not just pick and choose certain ones, in certain geographic areas....like Cain is wanting to do.

Doesn't matter if you like the idea or not, Jack Kemp's where the general idea came from, so my point is correct.  And frankly, while Kemp may not be Mr. Red Meat Fire-eater, I don't think any credible observer would challenge his overall conservatism.  If anything, the idea for "enterprise" zones is just a pragmatic response to the fact (whether ideology thinks it's "pure" to recognise it or not) that our inner cities are cesspools where nobody in their right mind under the present set of circumstances would invest money that would lead to job creation, without some pretty serious incentives to do so.

257 Ace, I agree with you. But I think the reasons people are lying to themselves about Cain being a "true conservative" is Cain seems to truly respect conservatives. Perry's comment about those opposed to illegal immigration having no heart devastated him, not even so much because he was wrong on policy, but because it was an absolute echo of everything the left says about conservatives. He may as well have spit on the base. Some of my relatives were so offended I'm not sure they'd ever consider Perry now under any circumstances (in the primary I mean, we'd vote for Putin over Obama.)

For the record, I think Cain is a really nice, common sense guy who hasn't thought much about policy. I think his internal gyroscope seems to be center right, not hard right. My mom is the same, and I wouldn't want her as President either. But who, of the "not Romney" group, is viable? Right now every time I think about having to make a choice in this primary I want to curl up in the fetal position under my bed and cry.

258 This argument from the position of non-rational granting of Status is driving me apeshit.

Posted by: ace at October 28, 2011 12:28 PM (nj1bB)

Absofuckin'lutely.  I'd like to add, it's not "True Conservative," it's TRUE CONSERVATIVE!!!!!!!!!!!

Palinistas me thinks 'cause they're pissed at Perry.

259 "Seriously, the "Obama will beat Romney!" stuff is pure distortionism from the perspective of the ultra-conservative base that is constitutionally incapable of understanding how deep Romney's appeal is going to be to the swing voters of America at this particular point in time.  He's not what YOU necessarily want, but he's what THEY want." I'll tell you a secret. My husband's entire family is made up of so-called "swing" voters. They've already ruled out Romney- mainly because of the Daily Show segments featuring his many, many flip-flops, and of course, the perceived inherent hypocrisy of a man who is against Obamacare while being at least partially responsible for (and admittedly proud of) it's Massachusetts precursor. Fair or not, the average low-info voter has NO IDEA what the difference is- constitutionally and practically- between a program like that implemented on a state level versus the national level. Nor do they really care about that bit of nuance, as evidenced by the reactions I got when I tried to explain the difference to the in-laws. Romney is not as electable amongst the middle as you want to think he is.

260

@264 Kemp actually wanted Empowerment Zones. Where public housing tennants would own (and thus have some responsibility) for the housing they lived in. It is not the same as Cain's Enterprise Zones where, simply, Cain is going to lower the sales tax componet of his 9-9-9.

I didn't say that Cain's and Kemp's ideas were identical, but that Cain's idea to encourage specific investment and spur growth in inner city areas finds a spiritual parent in Kemp's old ideas from the 1980s.

261

239.....Cain already won the point on 999

No he hasn't.

When retirees realize that they will be paying an additional 9% [feels like 10%] tax on everything they buy....they will not like that.

When people making less than 60K/yr realize that they will be paying substantially more per year on their combined 9% + 9% taxes....they will not like that.

When the above two groups realize that people in the higher income brackets will be getting a huge tax cut.....while they will be paying more....do you think they're going to like that?

No. They won't like it at all.

Cain is a time-bomb. It's only a matter of time before people figure out that they are being played.

262 The 9% Individual Flat Tax would define "income" as gross income less charitable deductions. The 9% Business Flat Tax would define "income" as gross income less all investments, all purchases from other businesses and all dividends paid to shareholders. It appears the 9% National Sales Tax would be applied to all goods and services sold in the economy, though Congress could and presumably would exempt certain "vital" goods and services (such as food, medicines, health care, education).

(FreedomWorks)

263

10% for Perry

90% for the Not-Perry

25% for Romney

30% for Cain.

If you romneybots don't like Cain you better start being willing to compromise or else take whatever the base gives you and shut up.

264 What matters are the numbers in the early states, the ground game, supporters and money. Lots and lots of money.

Then no reason to count Perry out.

265

277....Cain's is merely dropping the sales tax portion of his plan.

Mallamutt, I think that Cain's 9-0-9 plan drops the Income Tax portion of his plan, doesn't it? ....And then, he said that he would make people with incomes below $22K/yr exempt from the Income Tax.

But he keeps changing it, and adding to it....so it is difficult to keep up. So I could be wrong.

 

266

Palinistas me thinks 'cause they're pissed at Perry.

Posted by: The Ghose of Kim Novak Cute Perrywinkle for Perry at October 28, 2011 01:20 PM (8DdAv)

 

WHHaaaaa Palinistas are pissed at Perry. News flash there's a lot more than Palinistas pissed at Mr. 10%.

Maybe if big efn cowboy, all bluster and bullcrap, hadn't come into the debates with no ideas, no proposals and not pissed on the base by tellin em their heartless for not supporting in state tuition for kids of illegals, just explained his posititon and STFU about it maybe he would have his big efn head above water.

Some of us see this cowboy as a less articulate George Bush and as much as there was to LIKE about W. we don't care to see a less articulate, hot headed version take on the Lyin kING and his Presstitutes in a debate cause the kING and his Presstitutes will shove his hat up his ass and send him packin.

Kinda makes sense now that Perry didn't debate his last challenger or so I heard.

267
the idea for "enterprise" zones is just a pragmatic response to the fact (whether ideology thinks it's "pure" to recognise it or not) that our inner cities are cesspools where nobody in their right mind under the present set of circumstances would invest money that would lead to job creation, without some pretty serious incentives to do so.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus



So:

Obama wants the government to finance, through direct subsidies, the construction of solar cell plants.

Cain wants the government to finance, through indirect subsidies, the construction of solar cell plants -- in the inner city.

Is that really all that different?

268 But when you turn it upside down ... FYNQ!

269

@277

But there IS the principle of trying to encourage investment back into inner city areas where it currently (and wisely) stays as far away as it can possibly get.  Same general idea, different particulars in fleshing it.  And it's more than any of the other candidates are doing to try to encourage the reintegration of a large portion of our country that currently exists as a ghettoised no-go zone.

270

Cain only has to refrain from saying/doing, anything so over the top stupid that he becomes toxic...and by "toxic," I mean toxic to the Tea Party and to Conservatives

You mean toxic like saying he would release the "hostages" in Gitmo?

Well...He was presented with a fantastical hypothetical and he said he could make that call.  Given the structure of the question, that was a pretty fair answer....But lots of people (and many of them in the MSM and DNC, in particulart) have turned it into a big gotcha...I feel safe numbering you among that "lots of people".

As for his 999 plan.....Who cares? 

Those voters making under $60,000 a year who may have a tax increase implemented on them if 9-9-9 becomes the law? Those voters who live in states without a sales tax who will now suddenly find themselves with one.

And what type of logic is that...ignore Cain's 9-9-9 because it will never become law? Then why the hell did he propose it? Boredom? Such an argument belies a very unserious attitude among people who may be inclined to vote for Cain (yea, 9-9-9 may suck, but it will never pass so who cares!)

In the end we will get what we get, whatever the 999 proposal might say....but the tax code will simplify and get flatter...

No it doesn't. Cain injects a sales tax and then leaves a income tax and a corporate tax that can still, in a few short years, return to its current incarnation. Yea, 9%, but with these deductions and credit. 9% too low, lets do 9/20/35 for both income and corporate.  Oh, and we still need more money, we can raise that sales tax a 1/4 of a percent...no one will complain.

The devil is always in the details....and flattening and simplifying allows those details to be easier to comprehend and hammer out...

Many, many are hanging their hats on the marginal areas where some or another group is harmed financially by the umberella of the proposed changes....Well....every change to the tax code harms someone and advantages someone else...The current system sucks.  Until Cain mentioned 999 (and massively pissed you off in the process) everyone else in the race was focussed on the current system and massive inertia...

For better or worse, the marginal problems will be hammered out in a congressional committee....it can be no other way.

 

271 61 My entire family moved quickly onto the Cain train after Bachmann wents nusto and Perry flamed out. He's got a lot of solid support amongst the base. I disagree with Cain on a few things: not a fan of the Fair Tax or his 999 plan, and I'm very unhappy that he doesn't seem to want to get up to speed on foreign policy. But, barring an epic Perry comeback or a rise for Newt, I'll vote for Cain over Romney if it comes down to that. Frankly, even though I'm a bit worried about some of Cain's issues, I actually trust him to figure things out and do what's right significantly more than I do Romney. Because I think Cain is an actual conservative at heart and I think Romney is whatever he things he needs to be to obtain political power.

Posted by: Mandy P. refuses to watch the SCOAMF at October 28, 2011 12:30 PM (qFpRI

Mandy, Mandy, Mandy ... good God, please save us.  But, you prove Ace's point rather well.

272 Can Cain with the nomination? What say we find out the old-fashioned way?

There is some rhymes-with-Mitt I will not eat either way, but it should be entertaining in the meantime.

273 @284 Cain wants the government to finance, through indirect subsidies, the construction of solar cell plants -- in the inner city.

Wrong question, or at least wrong understanding of the issue. Lower taxes are not a "subsidy."  That's socialist thinking, there.  When Republicans, on rare occasions, do manage to get tax rates lowered, they're not giving us "subsidies."  They're preventing the government from forcibly taking as much of our money, as any reduction in a tax rate pretty much is.  The wording of your question still assumes that our money "really" belongs to the government, and that not taking as much of it from us is a "handout" that we're receiving.

274 My take on Cain is that we elected a guy we knew nothing about in 2008.  Let's don't do it again.  Cain has no record and has never held public office.  We know what he says he will do but we've heard all that before...like in the last election.  Cain has done well in life but he is not sophisticated enough for Europe or knowledgable enough for the ME crisis and the rest of the world.  Tough times are ahead not only in this country but in the rest of the world and we need someone experienced to steer the boat.  We sure don't have that now unless, of course, the object is to sink this country.  There are politicians and politicians.  We need to know what a candidate had done or said in the past.  In other words, what is his/her record?  And their records are all we can go by.

275

@276 When the above two groups realize that people in the higher income brackets will be getting a huge tax cut.....while they will be paying more....do you think they're going to like that?

Probably not - but arguments against class warfare are never popular.

276 Cain isn't electable! Romney is electable and so are McCain and Dole!

277
Lower taxes are not a "subsidy." 
Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus




They are, when they are given to one group and not another. Giving a lower tax rate to businesses in the inner city only works if tax rates elsewhere remain at higher levels.  Otherwise, there's no financial advantage for a company to set up business in the hood. Which is why they're not there in the first place.

278 I don't think Cain is smart enough to take on Putin, for instance, or the Chinese president.  And certainly not Imadinnerjacket.  He has shown he is weak on world geography and knows very little about protocol.  Do we need another president the world laughs at and if Cain commits more gaffes like the ones he alread has, they will laugh? He really is rivaling Biden on gaffes.   I want someone tough that leaders of other countries are afraid of.  I would rather have fear and respect rather than love.  Right now we are not not getting either.

279 Sweet succor.

280 >>>If you romneybots don't like Cain you better start being willing to compromise or else take whatever the base gives you and shut up.

Okay, fine.  But when the "base" you refer to ends up nominating Romney you goddamn well better take what they've given you and shut up as well.  This is a two-way street: you don't just get to be the guy who makes demands of us and then says "fuck you, I'm voting Obama or staying home!" when your side gets outvoted.

281 @297 They are, when they are given to one group and not another. Giving a lower tax rate to businesses in the inner city only works if tax rates elsewhere remain at higher levels.  Otherwise, there's no financial advantage for a company to set up business in the hood. Which is why they're not there in the first place.

Nope - the term "incentive" applies here, but not "subsidy," which has a very specific meaning that your solipsising.

282

283 Posted by: concealed Kerry or submit at October 28, 2011 01:35 PM (vXqv3)

Gosh, mad bro?  Man, you Palin people are so touchy.

283 "Mandy, Mandy, Mandy ... good God, please save us.  But, you prove Ace's point rather well." No, actually. As I said later in the thread, I have that belief about him because I bothered to listen to him on the radio for several years.

284

Maybe if big efn cowboy, all bluster and bullcrap, hadn't come into the debates with no ideas, no proposals and not pissed on the base by tellin em their heartless for not supporting in state tuition for kids of illegals, just explained his posititon and STFU about it maybe he would have his big efn head above water.

No ideas? No proposals?

1) Gut the EPA and eliminate job killing regulations

2) Expand coal and gas energy exploration and production

3) Lawsuit reform

4) Flat tax

5) Federalism.

285

It's all relative ...

286 New thread?

287

Okay, fine.  But when the "base" you refer to ends up nominating Romney you goddamn well better take what they've given you and shut up as well. 

Wrong.

I'm a libertarian. I don't take no shit from nobody.

I'm willing to support 6 ouf 8 republican candidates.

Do you want a concensus candidate or not?

Do you want to win or not?

I'm not going to demand my first choice if that ends up being unacceptable to too many people. *cough*romneyista*cough*.

I'm not the one trying to fracture the coalition.

288

"Not to say that will happen with Cain, but if you have him and Perry splitting the NotRomney/Conservative-ish vote, it doesn't bode well for them."

It comes down to Iowa .  Iowa, like it or not, will thin the herd.

All of the also rans (Santorum, Backmann, Gingrich) except Paul will drop out.  They will not be able to get any pres attention nor money.  

Right now, I am assuming Cain wins Iowa

If Perry finishes third in Iowa, he is done.  Ideally, he needs to win but with his money, he can stumble on if he at least finishes second.  He has to beat Romney there.

If my assumption is wrong and Romney finishes first in Iowa, it is over. 

 

289 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

290 People like Cain for the same reason they like Trump - they see him as NOT A POLITICIAN.

People HATE politicians, they barely distinguish between the parties and see them ALL as craven, shallow, self-serving and corrupt.

This is why they are very easily swayed by pure charm.  Which Cain has, which Romney lacks and which if Perry can get his back might put him in a good spot.

291

People HATE politicians, they barely distinguish between the parties and see them ALL as craven, shallow, self-serving and corrupt.

Because by and large they are.

292

Romney is not going to pull off Bambi's outsider with greek columns spiel.

Barack wants to position himself as a DC outsider even as the incumbent president.

It's preposterous, but he will still be more believable than Romney is.

293

312.  It's also obvious Cain is just playing for Romney's VP,  he doesn't have an aspiration to work harder than Urkel.

Not being a Republican, I've no reason to consider antiChrist-lite a better choice than antiChrist hizzelf.

294 "I always believed Conservatives voted with their heads while Liberals voted with their guts."

Yeah, that's because Rush Limbaugh repeatedly said that crap to his audience to flatter them and retain his audience.

On average, liberals are just (if not slightly more: they have the scientists, and so forth) more intelligent than conservatives. However, the "conservative" part refers to following traditional ways that have worked in the past. So conservatives spend less time hashing out new solutions, while liberals want to change everything. With their intellect devoted to constantly changing the economy, society, and social relationships in one way or another, when an actual real tangible problem comes up, they have less free intellectual capacity to draw upon, and conservatives generally make better decisions.

Religion is -- among other things -- an evolutionary adaptive thought conservation strategy. By having all the answers to life's questions worked out ahead of time, humans could devote more time to survival and reproduction related tasks, than if we had just constantly pondered everything, including why bother in the first place.

Religion demands faith and irrational thinking from its adherents. And, again, these conserve thought for useful tasks. Now that we have so much scientific info providing a much more accurate model of life than religion provides, many people have moved on, in practice if not in outright declaration of a change of belief.

However, lower IQ people tend to be more religious -- this has been demonstrated numerous times. The right wing of the conservative party has many, many of these people. I would argue that thought conservation strategy or no, they never had enough intellectual capacity to begin with to make particularly rational, informed decisions about complex things such as who would make the best leader, based on their views and what they're saying.

So for these people, it boils down to likability and charisma. They're important for anyone, but triply so for these people.

ALSO -- and this is important -- they like leaders who are mildly more intelligent than themselves, but not far, far more intelligent -- so they end up supporting your O'Donnells and Palins and Cains and whomever.

You're right, Ace. They aren't using rational inputs to make their decisions. It's a kind of faith, which is a shorthand way of making and holding to decisions for people of lower average intelligence.

But you won't say so.

295 * I meant, "On average, liberals are just (if not slightly more: they have the scientists, and so forth) as intelligent than conservatives."

296 Cain will attract better advisers now that he is the clear frontrunner. He is my pick by a mile. What is the alternative? Mitt W. McRomney or Rick W. McPerry.

No, no a thousand times NO to that.

Break the mold and go with the genuine candidate, the trustworthy candidate. Herman Cain is the only one I trust.

297 "Break the mold and go with the genuine candidate, the trustworthy candidate. Herman Cain is the only one I trust."

Nothing screams trustworthiness to me like changing your opinion on different key political and moral issues multiple times within a week during an election.

298 If everyone is bashing Cain then who the hell is left that can win the election that is worth voting for Mittens or Perry?  Not really much of a choice is it?

299 I'm curious. Why should we be paying attention to Cain's ills if he wins the nomination. What exactly is going to be revealed about Cain that makes him worse than Obama?

300

Unless you are Nolan Ryan or Manfred von Richthofen, you probably shouldn't call yourself "Ace", let alone let on that you are "tired of instructing" people.

 

What exactly makes you an "ace".  I am serious.  Is it a childhood nickname from a neighbor who forgot your name, but wanted to be nice?

 

 

301 And I bet that Mr. Ryan would refer to himself as "nolan from TX"...

302 I don't know whether someone else has made this point, but Cain is the GOP's Obama, our Mr. Hope-n-Change (other than this, he's obviously not like Obama the Marxist.) Cain is a nice n decent guy, inspirational, and he's all talk and no substance. Also, BECAUSE he's blaaaack, many proud un-racist conservatives have jumped aboard the Cain-train. Irony, thy name is Hopey-Changey!

303 Raising money as a Presidential candidate means you OWE someone something along the line. I'm ok with the fact that Cain isn't a FAT CAT MONEY MAKER - in fact, I prefer that! No more obama - that's the BOTTOM LINE!

304 Hell, I'll vote for Cain just to p!ss George Will off.

305 "Can Cain Win the Nomination?"

The short answer....No!

The long answer.....Not a chance in Hell!

306 Religion demands faith and irrational thinking from its adherents.

That 's why we see a clear demonstration of the rationality of atheism in the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Occupied Wall Street crowds. We can see how irrational and stupid the Tea Party evangelicals are. The core Romney supporters are the great, smart atheists and quasi-religious secularists.

307 My family is Catholic, douchebag, and fuck you.

Your family may be, but you are definitely not Catholic unless you are Catholic in name only. I don't see a real Catholic cursing and did the kind of ad-hominem attack the way you did on this forum. Even you can't even be honest.

308 If a Republican other than Romney used Nada Surf's "Popular" as his campaign's theme song, I'd have to endorse him.  Which is really unfortunate, since it would probably be Huntsman.  Yecch.

Great song, though.

309 Herman Cain's standing in the polls only proves one thing: most people, on average, are stupid. 

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315

Religion demands faith and irrational thinking from its adherents.

That 's why we see a clear demonstration of the rationality of atheism in the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Occupied Wall Street crowds.

There are other belief systems that also demand faith and irrational thinking from its adherents.

Religion doesn't have a lock on this. In fact, humans probably have irrationality built into structures within our brains that are nonetheless adaptive for passing on genes (faith may be irrational, but could lead to more future-based survival and reproductive behavior than if people just analyzed shit and said, "Why bother?"). I think it's likely that people who lose or never had religious faith, by and large, replace their religion with other irrational belief systems.

It takes trremendous focus to think objectively, making objectivity your primary value (and is probably not a good idea anyway, if life and happiness are your goals.)

316 This is not a shot at any of the Republican candidates. But if the liberal-controlled media can pull the wool over the eyes of enough people to get Obama elected, then I'm sure that the liberal media can also extend the favor to any of the Republican candidates.

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