1 Not until Ace eats a crap snadwich for as his vitriolic garbage posts

2 Not until Ace eats a crap sandwich for all his vitriolic garbage posts

3 Wow! - Perry really sounded like a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure last night.

4

I like Perry's plan more.  It has three things going for it...

5

The software analyzes the stress level and other factors in your voice. During the speech, when Cain denied the claims, the lie detector read “low risk.” According to Ward, that means Cain is telling the truth.

During the section of Bialek’s news conference where she says, “He suddenly reached over put his hand on my leg under my skirt and reached for my genitals he also grabbed my head brought it towards his crotch.”

During the analysis of that section the software said “high risk statement.” Ward said that means she is not telling the truth about what happened.

“I don’t think she is fabricating her meetings,” said Ward. But, she is fabricating what transpired.”

6 Newt is looking better and better.  I never thought I'd say that.

7

I am in the construction business, it's labor intensive and 9 9 9 is a killer. You could actually lose money in any given year and still be resposible for a 9% income tax.

I don't understand anyone liking this disaster. Taxes should be on profits, not gross receipts like Cain's 9 9 9 plan is.

8 There are three things wrong with this analysis:  1) It's inaccurate.  2)  It's projection.  3) Uhh... Consarn it, what was that third thing?

9 I wanna celebrate the results of the lie detector software for a little bit first.

10 I don't think Cain really knows what he is doing. In addition, playing the race card twice and blaming Perry twice for his bimbo eruptions sunk him off my list entirely.,

11 As a former tax accountant, I can throw one little tidbit of info into the mix.....everyone argues about tax rates and deductions -- but all the work in doing taxes is figuring out what the income is in the first place.

9-9-9 won't solve anything in that regard. On the other hand, since when do tax codes come from the executive, anyway? The idea of a presidential candidate campaigning on what he's got to make Congress do is somewhat absurd.

12 9 - they only chose that voice modulation thing because Aunt Cleo was already booked.

13 Looks like Andy has been in meetings with the Grand Wizard.

14 It will suck slimy post burrito ass if Obama can run as the lower tax alternative.

Never gotten the sense that Cain totally understands it and have never heard his supporters rebut the same old objections you put together.

15 I love the 999 plan. You set the level of taxation then you fucking live within your means. Period.

16 Since the thread has gone OT already, there is some kind of problem with the main page.  My browser freaks out and never finishes loading, the status bar says something about youtube.

17

Cain will get torn up over this 999 plan, if he is the nominee. .....The MSM has to be drooling over the prospect of it.

Personally, I like the idea of everyone having to pay something....even if it is a small token amount. But a National Sales Tax would suck, for several reasons.

Cain will get beaten up with "Cain wants to Tax the Poor!" and "Evil Corporate Cain wants to Tax Food & Medicine".

18 'Bout time.  I've been waiting for us to get back to arguing for why it's better to continue to let 47% of the country pay no income tax, instead of making everybody pay their fair share.

19

20 How dare you criticize the candidate who is being criticized by the MBM?

That is how all right-minded conservatives should choose their candidate. It has nothing to do with the underlying qualities of his political thought and economic plans. It is 100% whether he is seen as being picked on.

21 Doom is engulfing me as I contemplate the trajectory of stupidity that is plaguing our citizenry.  As the guy in "Sid and Nancy" shouts, Is it fucking worth it?? 

I'm referring to Drudge's link on Gallup reporting President Radical Gangsta Shit Marxist is now polling even with Generic Republican.  If true, the dumb runs deeeeep in America.

22
Since the thread has gone OT already, there is some kind of problem with the main page.  My browser freaks out and never finishes loading, the status bar says something about youtube.

Posted by: Bob Firefox Saget at November 10, 2011 01:41 PM (SDkq3)

Same here. The little blue bar flashes fast enough to trigger my epilepsy.

23 6 Newt is looking better and better. I never thought I'd say that.
_________

Yeah, I've been feeling myself coming under the sway of the siren song of the Newt flute as well.

24 I've been waiting for us to get back to arguing for why it's better to continue to let 47% of the country pay no income tax, instead of making everybody pay their fair share.

Don't count on the 999 plan (or the fair tax) to fix that. Both have the BS prebate stuff.

25
the sidebar is loaded with crap

26 Cain's answer was naive beyond belief.

I have to disagree with your analysis there. Cain's answer was spot on.

The stated objection to 9-9-9 (and any other flat tax) was "Won't politicians increase the rate later to raise revenues?"

Cain answered that the rate does not go up automatically, only politicians can raise it. This was true.

Now, can you make the case why this problem is peculiar to a flat tax versus any other tax scheme?

27

@ 10 I don't think Cain really knows what he is doing. In addition, playing the race card twice and blaming Perry twice for his bimbo eruptions sunk him off my list entirely.,

Well, as Perry can tell you, third time's a charm!

28 Posted by: theworldisnotenough at November 10, 2011 01:35 PM (JpqtI)

Why?

Ace has an opinion of Cain. That he is a bumbling naif who will lose to Obama.

I happen to agree.

29 'Bout time.  I've been waiting for us to get back to arguing for why it's better to continue to let 47% of the country pay no income tax, instead of making everybody pay their fair share.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at November 10, 2011 01:43 PM (+inic)

So making a company pay 9% income tax on it's total receipts when it actually lost money is fair? Interesting. There are several startups that don't project making a profit for several years, under Cains plan they will have to pay income tax for all the years they are losing money.

It's a job killer.

30
actually it isn't

but it usually is

Too many embedded vids and pics and links will wreak havoc on this blog.

31 >> 'Bout time. I've been waiting for us to get back to arguing for why it's better to continue to let 47% of the country pay no income tax, instead of making everybody pay their fair share.

Sorry. Try again.

32 Wait, business don't get to deduct salaries from their 9?  Wow, that's just what we need to make unemployment go up, make the cost of labor go higher.

That Cain, he sure is a genius. /sarc

33 Ok......

Attention all you douchebag politicians......STOP SAYING WE'RE STUPID!!!!!  You're really starting to piss us off, assholes.

34 Posted by: Vic at November 10, 2011 01:45 PM (YdQQY)

Apparently basic financial analysis is beyond the capabilities of Herman Cain. We will have to wait until he becomes president, hires intelligent and competent people, and then get good analysis.

35 Posted by: robtr at November 10, 2011 01:47 PM (MtwBb)

Math is racist, and so are you.

Denounce yourself!

36 Newt is a rambling fool.  He spews off topic stuff.

/red meat

37 Yeah! Cain may supply the federal government with a new stream of revenues, he might not even understand that or anything else that could be important for the CiC, but Perry forgot to say "Energy" yesterday, doncha know?

38 >> Cain answered that the rate does not go up automatically, only politicians can raise it. This was true.

That wasn't an answer. It was a restatement of the question.

39 Judging by the first several comments, the answer is no. People are too fucking stupid, especially Cain supporters.

40 MR. CAIN: My proposal is the only one that solves the problem by throwing out the current tax code, which has been a mess for decades -- (applause) -- and we need to put in something different that I've proposed: 9-9-9. It satisfies five simple criteria.

It is simple. The complexity costs us $430 billion a year.

It is transparent. People know what it is. There are thousands of hidden "sneak attaxes" in the current tax code. That's why I want to throw it out.

It is fair. The reason it's fair is because of the definition in Webster, which says everybody gets treated the same, all businesses get treated the same, not having Washington, D.C., pick winners and losers.

 

Cain's answer on this is so full of holes.

Simple?......Not really. And the complexities of it keep growing as people point out the problems with it.

Transparent?.....No its not. There are lots of people who don't understand yet how it will impact them.

"All businesses get treated the same"......Really? Even the ones in those 'Opportunity Zones'?

But then it appears that Cain can say anything, and he gets a pass on it from the media. .....At least, for now.

41 In theory I actually like the 9-9-9 plan.  Until one realizes the downside that unless part of passing 9-9-9 involves outlawing the D party they will instantly (along with the progressive Rs) begin adding exemptions and credits for their favored interests and to keep it revenue neutral constantly jack the rate.  The only force that would run counter to that is it's visibility (as Cain points out) but I suspect Ds are clever enough to get around that.  Too many freshly minted (taught by Marxist profs) Harvard MBAs running corporations all to ready to ensure retail receipts slowly stop showing the sales tax in a clear way, etc.  Once they hide it raising the rate is child's play.

Cain doesn't care about the long term consequences because, see his website, he sees 9-9-9 only as a stepping stone to the Fair Tax.  And if he really could sell the public on that he is right.  Big gamble.

Of course that leaves us with the huge flaw in the Fair Tax. The Fair Tax gives the Progs more than they could ever dream of, something they probably couldn't openly push for themselves for generations and in the end will (while loudly denouncing it of course) cause them to throw the fight and allow it to pass.  The prebate is the fatal flaw, the boosters of the Fair Tax are right that without it there is no chance of passing anything like it.  Their error is in not realizing WHY that is so.

You give every citizen of this country a plastic card that money appears on each and every month and the very next election cycle will see the Dems and the legacy media (BIRM) rebrand it as everyone's "Fair Share" and noting how pathetic it is, how those bastards Rs think that pitiful amount is all someone's "Fair Share" is and that Ds will make sure you get what is due.  First D POTUS will make sure those plastic cards have the word "Fair Share" on them, forever enshrining the notion.

42

The stated objection to 9-9-9 (and any other flat tax) was "Won't politicians increase the rate later to raise revenues?"

No, it's not. My stated objection is that it taxes gross receipts instead of profit.

If you had a framing crew for example which is all labor you could do $1 Million in business, make a $100,000 profit and have to pay $99,000 in taxes. That's a 99% tax rate.

43 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

44

@ 18 Cain will get beaten up with "Cain wants to Tax the Poor!" and "Evil Corporate Cain wants to Tax Food & Medicine".

You know, at some point, some Republican candidate - Cain or somebody else, at some point - is just going to have to bite the bullet and forge ahead with a tax plan that will make everybody pay their fair share.  Even a flat tax plan, unless loaded down with so many "progressive" exceptions as to make it in effect indistinguishable from the present tax situation, will have this.  "What?  You want poor people to pay 10% of their income, just like rich people???"

That's why I like the idea of some sort of national sales tax - not necessarily the Fair Tax or the 9-9-9 plan, but something, IF coupled with the end of the income tax.  You only pay if you buy something.  You control your level of taxation more, depending on how extragant you want your own life to be.  The rich will still "pay more" since they buy more, and more expensive things.  Plus, the drug dealers and illegal immigrants and the rest who currently slip under the IRS radar will have to pay.  It's the ultimate equaliser.

45

"I am in the construction business, it's labor intensive and 9 9 9 is a killer. You could actually lose money in any given year and still be resposible for a 9% income tax."

By definition, if you lose money in a given year, do you have any gross income to tax? 

 

46 OT:  (I know)

Touched.  The Jerry Sandusky Story.

47 10 <-- this, basically.

I gotta go back to work and see if the database is up yet

48 Until the government raises it, Titus

49 My stated objection is that it taxes gross receipts instead of profit.

The real problem with the business portion is... it's just a gimmick.  He raises the base to lower the rate, but the tax revenue is the same.

Ex. pretax profit = $1,000 x 35% = $350 tax
Cain taxable profit $3,888 x  9% = $350 tax

50

OK - I got it.  The volume of anti-Cain posts has convinced me - Cain = bad.  Please join me in a chant:  All hail Romney, the least-unelectable scum of the bunch!  (sarc)

I think it's pretty plain that the Cain tax plan is a non-starter.  I can see no way that Congress would actually pass such a thing.  Indeed, it's almost impossible to imagine that the current tax structure will really change in any way at all.  To many oxen will be gored.

What Cain stands for is less important to me than what he stands against.  He knows, at least at some level, that libtardedness is bad.  I'm not sure Romney gets that, really.  Cain knows exactly how far you can trust a Muz.  He knows which side of the Israel issue to be on.  As for the rest, that's what the cabinet is for - you delegate issues to the smart guys who aren't election material.  Reagan didn't do it all alone, you know. 

I'm way more worried about what the next prez will veto, rather than what he'll sign.  I think he'll veto the right things.  I don't believe that about Romney.  I'd like to see Perry get the nod, but I think that's over and done.  Spilt milk.

Plus, if Cain gets in the first full-black Prez in US history will have an (R) by his name in the history books.  I think that alone will go a long way to undermine Obie's support among black voters, and get that miserable PoS out of office. 

51

By definition, if you lose money in a given year, do you have any gross income to tax? 

 

Posted by: mjhlaw at November 10, 2011 01:53 PM (YQ4mh

Of course you do, gross income=gross receipts.

Net Income=Profits.

Cain taxes gross receipts. With certain deductions to certian compaines that fit his criteria. For most companies labor is not a deduction unless you are in one of his enterprise zones.

52

@ 29 So making a company pay 9% income tax on it's total receipts when it actually lost money is fair? Interesting. There are several startups that don't project making a profit for several years, under Cains plan they will have to pay income tax for all the years they are losing money.

Where did I say that i was specifically talking about the 9-9-9 plan?

53
It gets even worse:

Jerry Sandusky Rumored to Have Been 'Pimping Out Young Boys to Rich Donors,' Says Mark Madden

In April, Pittsburgh radio host Mark Madden wrote a story revealing Penn State for much of the cover-up of Jerry Sandusky's alleged child rape that has been exposed in the past week. While it didn't raise many eyebrows back then, six months later it looks to be incredibly accurate.
...
"I can give you a rumor and I can give you something I think might happen," Madden told John Dennis and Gerry Callahan. "I hear there's a rumor that there will be a more shocking development from the Second Mile Foundation -- and hold on to your stomachs, boys, this is gross, I will use the only language I can -- that Jerry Sandusky and Second Mile were pimping out young boys to rich donors. That was being investigated by two prominent columnists even as I speak."

54 How about we commemorate a century of the IRS with Income Tax Classic? 1% from those earning more than 100k.

55 Thank you, Andy.

56 Cain's really not my guy but, I'm appalled at how the racist attacks continue on this blog.

57

THIS. A million times over.

This is why I don't like Cain. His polcies, not his personal issues.

 

58
Since the national sales tax would require a constitutional amendment, that amendment could include a flexible cap on changing rates and a balanced budget piece.  Maybe a 4/5ths vote of each House or something.

As to whether a President could force Congress to do something, I think that it can be done but, the program MUST be the centerpiece of their campaign and they must win big and have coattails.  Then it's a mandate.  At least for the next Congress.

59 THIS THREAD IS FULL OF GARDASIL ABUSERS!  CAIN 2012! 

LEAD...FOLLOW.....OR GET DOWN WITH THE ANONYMOUS ACCUSATIONS.  YOU LOWRENT FUCKERS

60

I believe the common definition of Gross Income under the current tax code is gross receipts minus cost of goods sold.  I would assume the term carries the same meaning under the 999 plan.

61 The only tax plan submitted so far that doesn't suck hind tit is Perry's plan.  And that's not gonna get him anywhere at this point.

62 Ex. pretax profit = $1,000 x 35% = $350 tax
Cain taxable profit $3,888 x  9% = $350 tax

Posted by: Cherry pi at November 10, 2011 01:54 PM (OhYCU)

Cain doesn't tax profit, he taxes gross receipts less some deductions. You can't deduct labor, rent, interest, lawyer fees, license fees etc. In other words you can't deduct the cost of doing business.

63

@ 48 Until the government raises it, Titus

You can make that argument about any mode of taxation, so it's not particularly persuasive for or against one mode versus another.

64 Dennis and Callahan are reputable.  They're good newsmen as well as being decent sports guys.

65 Don't get discouraged, folks, that's what the neo-commies want us to do... no one said self-government was supposed to be easy-peasy.

66

44.....That's why I like the idea of some sort of national sales tax - not necessarily the Fair Tax or the 9-9-9 plan, but something, IF coupled with the end of the income tax.

That's the problem.....the big IF. ....I mean really, what are the odds that we can get the income tax abolished?

I would come out ahead, with Cain's 999 plan, for the most part.....so it's no skin off my nose. But millions of people will be made to see in the general election, how they would get hosed under Cain's plan.

67 Reactionary & Dude: go back to Kos

68

What Cain stands for is less important to me than what he stands against.

lol

He knows which side of the Israel issue to be on. 

Yep and thats why his knee jerk reaction was to dump 5 mio. Palestinians onto Israel.

As for the rest, that's what the cabinet is for - you delegate issues to the smart guys who aren't election material. 

Herman Cain: A True Conservative - after we told him what he is supposed to think.

Reagan didn't do it all alone, you know.

Have you actually read Reagan? His essays and commentary before his presidency? You have not, because otherwise you wouldnt dare making the comparison.

69 Cain is a moron and Perry had his Howard Dean moment making himself look like a moron.

So....second look at Buddy Roemer?

70

I still am interested in hearing about whether this empowerment zone business is constitutional.

I'm no lawyer and I can't say which part would explicitly bar it, but regional taxation issues strike me as something that almost certainly came up. Can you tax some people differently from another based on their region? How is that not some kind of equal protection violation? Can we set different rates for different states?

I don't think he can actually do this empowerment zone thing he wants to do without a constitutional ammendment.

71 I don't like adding any new taxes.
These "cockroaches" of politicians will keep the old ones too.

72 robtr, of course.

73

I believe the common definition of Gross Income under the current tax code is gross receipts minus cost of goods sold.  I would assume the term carries the same meaning under the 999 plan.

Posted by: mjhlaw at November 10, 2011 01:57 PM (YQ4mh)

Two things, what you beleive is wrong. Gross Income under GAP accounting rules is gross receipts.

Net income is Gross Income minus the cost of doing business.

Cain himself says you can only deduct labor if you are in one of his enterprise zones and then only if you hire people that live in that zone.

74
Out: Happy Valley

In: Creepy Valley

75 >> Since the national sales tax would require a constitutional amendment

This is one thing I haven't introduced here regarding 999 because I've seen it argued both ways with no conclusive outcome, but, yeah, the national sales tax "9" is likely unconstitutional.

76 >>>You can make that argument about any mode of taxation, so it's not particularly persuasive for or against one mode versus another. Exactly! The dems spent a near decade railing against the Bush tax cuts and then chickened out from eliminating them when they had control of the house, senate and presidency. Raising taxes ain't all that easy.

77 well i'm a moron so perry's moron moment suits me just fine..............and i like his flat tax........

78 We had a tax on gross receipts here in Michigan, it was called the SBT.  It was a disaster for our state and businesses left in droves as a result.  We also couldn't get new business to come here. Businesses were paying taxes even though they were losing money.

Some start-ups lose money for 10 years or more, the last thing they need is to be overtaxed during that time.  ANY plan that taxes gross receipts is a huge mistake and any so-called successful businessman should know that. 

The national sales tax is also a horrible idea, whatever time Cain claims we would save by having a simplified tax code would be eaten by complying with an entirely new tax that would increase costs for every economic transaction made.  In addition, future Democrat majorities would just hike the tax.  As the economy is THE issue for this upcoming election.  A candidate with a shitty economic plan should be ruled out. Cain is a fucking moron from the word go.

79 @61
Did you look at Newt's?  He has side-by-side comparisons with the other plans, but I don't think I've read an analysis of his plan. 

I'm sticking with Perry because I still think that the primary problem is on the size of government/spending side rather than the tax side and I cannot support Ron Paul.  But I'm curious what folks think about Newt's plan.

80

>>>You can make that argument about any mode of taxation, so it's not particularly persuasive for or against one mode versus another.

 

but you're giving the government another revenue stream. Sales tax.

 

Why in the world would we pass something that the Democrats have been wanting for as long as I can remember?

 

That would be like Republicans passing a healthcare mandate.

81

If we are allowed to tax different regions at different rates based on region, then my 9-9-9 plan is 9 states, 9 taxes, 900%.

California, New York Vermont, Conneticut, etc...

We'll call it the Not In My Back Wallet Tax Reform Plan.

82

Two things, what you beleive is wrong. Gross Income under GAP accounting rules is gross receipts.

Net income is Gross Income minus the cost of doing business.

It's GAAP. Let's just stop right there and say the rest is not correct.

83

@ 58 Since the national sales tax would require a constitutional amendment

How do you figure?  Art. I, Sect. 8 says that Congress has the power to collect excises, among it's other taxation powers - an excise is a duty on the manufacture or sale or items.

84 Gross Sales less Returns, Allowances & Discounts = Net Sales
Net Sales less Cost Of Goods Sold = Gross Profit    <--- this is taxed under 999

85

Only the Fair Tax plan has been fine-tuned enough to succeed.  The country is in big enough trouble to accept a radical departure from the current clusterfuck system, so whoever the candidate is should go for it.

86 Raising taxes ain't all that easy.

Yes, it really is an open question as to whether the Democrats will allow the Obama tax cuts to expire at the end of next year, especially if employment stays bad, which it will almost certainly do.  

Imagine if the Republicans would make than an issue in the election.

87 "That would be like Republicans passing a health care mandate." *cough* Romney *cough*

88 The biggest weakness of the Herman Cain candidacy is his 9-9-,uh, something plan.  9,9.... uh.... gosh, I'm sorry, I don't have the rest of it.  Anyway, it's bad.

My plan is do something or other with the existing tax code that I can't remember the details of right now, but it sure as shootin' is a lot better than throwing it out wholesale as Brother Herman promises to do, I think.  All I know is, we need, um.... oh yeah, energy.  Lots and lots of energy.  Especially me, 'cause I never thought I'd have to work so hard for this and it sure is takin' the fire right outta me.  'Scuse me while I curl up on this.... uh.... what is this frame thing with a mattress on it called again?  Ah hell, brain freeze.  Look, I stepped in that one, but that's happened to everyone before, amiright?  Anyway, I'll back in 30, uh.... not seconds, I know it's not seconds.... 30.... um.... oh you know what I mean, it's that time-unit thingy.... I'll be back in half an hour.

89 I just did the math for the company I work for. Cain's plan would increase our taxes enormously.

90 Gross Sales less Returns, Allowances & Discounts = Net Sales
Net Sales less Cost Of Goods Sold = Gross Profit    <--- this is taxed under 999

Posted by: Jorn at November 10, 2011 02:03 PM (ZS57m)

Bullshit, go to his frickin website and read it.

91

Cain himself says you can only deduct labor if you are in one of his enterprise zones and then only if you hire people that live in that zone.

You realize that houses in what would be considered the most critical areas needing economic development go for like $2,000?

I don't know how big those deductions are... How do you decide how long you keep subsidizing people to move into one area over another?

Man I do not like this plan at all.

92 Cain isn't arguing that 999 is impervious to tax hikes or that some people will pay more.  He's arguing that tax is a necessary evil that people only have power to control or fight if the ability to hide manipulations are removed and tax is upfront and in your face.  999 is what it is, but it is very easy to see and notice when upward pressures are exerted on the rate.  There is no good tax policy, just a least bad one.

93

@ 80 but you're giving the government another revenue stream. Sales tax.

Like they couldn't have that revenue stream any moment they chose anyhow?

Sheesh.  If we got rid of the income tax, I'd take replacing it with a sales tax any day of the week.

94 it isn't easy raising taxes? hahahahahahah really?   our soooooper doooooper republican committee offered tax increases!!!! thank God the dems didn't think they offered enough so they walked away...we have spineless, balless  nitswits who are supposed to be on our side selling us down the river!!!! and it's not easy to raise taxes..........oh the laughing is going to make me cry...........

95 I'm sticking with Perry because I still think that the primary problem is on the size of government/spending side rather than the tax side and I cannot support Ron Paul.  But I'm curious what folks think about Newt's plan.

Posted by: Y-not at November 10, 2011 02:02 PM (5H6zj)

Thanks for the link.  Wasn't aware of that.

That being said....didn't the CBO do an analysis of Perry's plan and give it a pretty favorable ranking?  Or was that some other outside firm that did that?

96 @97
I'm so sorry. 

97 Not liking a shitty candidate = racist. Got it.

98

>>>Gross Sales less Returns, Allowances & Discounts = Net Sales
Net Sales less Cost Of Goods Sold = Gross Profit <--- this is taxed under 999

Indeed.

Let me illustrate it.

Let's say your company sells(goods or services) of 10,000,000 dollars

 

Under Cain's plan you pay 10,000,000 * 9% = $900,000.00

 

Let's say to pay your employees, pay for health insurance, rent, office supplies, etc etc your cost of doing business is  $8,500,000.00

 

Under our current tax system, you would pay this:

10,000,000-8,500,000= 1,500,000 * 35% = $525,000.00

 

So with Cain's plan, you would be paying $375,000.00 more

99 Hate to say it but none of these tax plans mean shit because there is no fucking way they are getting through the senate whether it goes republican or not.

100 Sorry to hear, Jumbo. It'll get better for him.

101 100 Not liking a shitty candidate = racist. Got it.

Posted by: Joffen at November 10, 2011 02:09 PM (zLeKL)

Precisely.

102 I'm glad that Palin woman didn't run, because of.. well... something.

103 Pizza Man FAIL - Herman Cain is full of shit

104 oops. I didn't mean to quote that comment in my last post. I copy and pasted the wrong one.

105 OK here's what I don't get- we are basically a consumer driven economy and if we aren't in recession now-it sure as hell looks like we will be-shortly. How does a national sales tax -at this time- help the economic recovery? Some Cain fans seem to think that the contractual effect of a national sales tax would be offset by the reduction in taxes for companies.... for example the supposed profit of less tax on business would necessarily pass to the consumer in lower prices for goods... Well could luck "timing" all of that , and you do have to get Congress-the upper chamber-The Senate being held by Majority Leader -Harry Reid to do-not one but two things for you- lower the corporate tax rate-which the Dems are addicted to like heroin-and pass the National Sales Tax-which would be really "popular" I'm sure.... **** Plus time those two suckers during the Recession and know in advance -it will all go according to plan-and that is-*if* you get Congress to sign on for the ride.... Holy hell good luck with that.

106 Well I officially pulled my support last night for Cain, for a lot of reasons, none of them had anything to do with sexual harassment.

Cain is playing the doubt both ways, and I see it.

His campaigning sux, but you give him the benefit of the doubt because he must be swamped learning about all that stuff he needs to know to be a Presidential contender

Except

His policy acumen sux and hasn't had a marked improvement since September, but you give him the benefit of the doubt because he must be spending all of his time on the campaign.

One of two things has to be true at this point.
1. He is in over his head, and will neither run a good campaign in the general nor be ready for the Presidency if he wins.

2. He is apathetic toward campaigning and the finer points of US policy, and he is just going to pay attention to what he thinks is important, and do things his way regardless of our concerns.

I honestly think that being a CEO of a large company is excellent experience for the Presidency, but, they are *not* the same job and require significantly different approaches.

This is how I see a lot of how he handles off his topic questions. We'll go with an auto mechanic meme.

Cain: I've got a plan to repair your engine, your old mechanical ignition system is shot, I'm going to replace it with ELECTRONIC IGNITION.

Me: Great, I liked the mechanical system but electronic ignition has some advantages. What are you going to do about my broke throttle linkage.

Cain: What we need to do first is get that ELECTRONIC IGNITION in there, then the engine will run, and a running engine moves the car.

Me: Ok but that throttle linkage really needs to be fixed, otherwise the car will be un-drivable running engine or no.

Cain: Well what we need to be talking about is getting ELECTRONIC IGNITION in there first. Once you find out how great ELECTRONIC IGNITION is you are gonna love it!

Me: ....?

I'm not just buying one product here. I'm trying to see what *package* offers the best deal. There are other issues with the US other than the tax code.

107

Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at November 10, 2011 02:08 PM (qjUnn)

So sorry.  That had to be a real blow for him.  Was he expecting it at all?

108 Sorry to hear it Jumbo.

109 That being said....didn't the CBO do an analysis of Perry's plan and give it a pretty favorable ranking?  Or was that some other outside firm that did that?

It was an outside firm.  I don't know if the CBO rates candidate plans.  The Club for Growth seems to favor Perry's plan over Romney's iirc. 

I like the move to a flat tax, but I would like to see more attention paid to cutting government. 

110

@ 90 I just did the math for the company I work for. Cain's plan would increase our taxes enormously.

I'd like the 9-9-9 plan a lot better if it was just the 9-9 plan - without the business tax at all.  Make up the revenue with tariffs.

111 102 Hate to say it but none of these tax plans mean shit because there is no fucking way they are getting through the senate whether it goes republican or not. True that, but people are idiots and will fall for anything. Look they voted for Obama

112 Palin wanted to eliminate the corp income tax entirely.  We would see a boom of economic expansion not seen since 1945.

These other plans are ridiculous.

113

@ 108 National Sales Tax-which would be really "popular" I'm sure....

Sometimes the right thing to do is not the popular thing to do.

114

>>>>OK here's what I don't get-
we are basically a consumer driven economy and if we aren't in recession now-it sure as hell looks like we will be-shortly.
How does a national sales tax -at this time-
help the economic recovery?

It's also fairly regressive and would never be passed by democrats.

 

 

 

115

WTF happened to Perry last night?  Did he go blank at the start and just fall apart?

Actually he was doing very well, then had a huge brain cramp.  It was painful.

116 97 OMG. My brother was just laid off from his 19 year job. Say a prayer for him. Posted by: Jumbo Jogging Shrimp at November 10, 2011 02:08 PM Gawd... hang in there.

117

>>>I'd like the 9-9-9 plan a lot better if it was just the 9-9 plan - without the business tax at all. Make up the revenue with tariffs.

 

It's the fact that the 9% is taxing gross sales and not income. That's the killer.

118 Let me know when ace returns, so we can return to lynching.

119

97 OMG. My brother was just laid off from his 19 year job.

So sorry to hear that, JJS. ....That really sucks.

They are lying to us about how the economy is really doing. Out & Out lying.

Say a prayer for him.

120 96 it isn't easy raising taxes? hahahahahahah really?   our soooooper doooooper republican committee offered tax increases!!!! thank God the dems didn't think they offered enough so they walked away...we have spineless, balless  nitswits who are supposed to be on our side selling us down the river!!!! and it's not easy to raise taxes..........oh the laughing is going to make me cry...........


Toomey's offer was to lower and lock-in the top individual tax rate at 28% while scrapping certain deductions. Some on the committee had also discussed a top rate of 25% for corporations but that did not go anywhere.

121 See, that's what I keep trying to tell people: Cain's 999 plan will destroy--absolutely destroy--small businesses and especially people like me. Think about a doctor, a lawyer, dentist or CPA. Hell, even hair dressers, contractors or financial advisers. All of those professions have little if any "purchases from other U.S. located businesses, capital investment, or net exports." In fact, all of their biggest expenses are all those thing that Cain thinks we don't need deductions or credits for: Labor (contract and w-2), rent, utilities, insurance, etc.

No, fuck Cain. His plan is a 27% tax on me. He would triple--triple--the taxes on my wife and I. Under the current code, I'd have a loss, under Cain's, I'd owe taxes. If I'm going to get bent over like that, I'll start voting D. 'Cause at least they'll promise me free shit for all my taxes. Cain will rape me up the ass and then blame me for not being able to make any money.

"But, but! It's a starting point--it's getting the conversation going!"

No! Fuck that too. 'Cause you know damn good and well that in a few years--if not sooner--the Dems are going to propose a stand-alone national sales tax. And guess where the fuck that leaves us if we nominate this stupid ass Cain? You know, the guy who is proposing that a national sales tax will solve our fiscal problems? Right: Pretending a national sales tax is a good idea when we propose it but a bad idea when the Dems do. Real winner that position. I can see Republican majorities as far as the eye can see under that retarded stupidity.

122 @libertarianjim: he had a bad moment and recovered after that but because he had done so poorly in the past, it was an even worse moment for him. He had a brain freeze. So now we have to work even harder to defend Perry from people who act like emotional teenage girls.

123

123.....Say a prayer for him.

Of course. Done. [meant to post that in the other comment]

124 Ben Hell I just saw your write up on how corporate taxes could actually go up.... holy cow.

125 999 eliminates the need for most businesses to pay for substantial external accounting services, it lowers the total cost that an employee is to a business because the business no longer has to remit payroll taxes.  Deductions are eliminated under 999, but so are some of the more onerous business costs currently associated with the current tax code.  There isn't necessarily are huge windfall to any party, but it does allow for capital investment to be more efficiently directed toward where it is needed rather than in labor costs and compliance costs.  Clarity and predictability and certainty are crucial in busniess planning and 999 does deliver this.  The current code is the bain of efficient investement decisions.

126 There is a little misinformation going on here re Cain's business taxes.

He is not taxing sales.  Good lord.

"Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports."

127 WTF happened to Perry last night?  Did he go blank at the start and just fall apart?

He was killing the question. Absolutely destroying it. It was stunning everybody on the live blog. This was the big Perry comback, a stunning answer. And in the wrap up, he talks about cutting 3 departments out of the federal government, Commerce! , Education!, and uhhh....ummmm.. he couldn't remember the third. So bad was his memory lapse, that he struggled for a solid minute, moderators were trying to help by suggesting departments, and he never could come up with it Energy.

Perry supporters wept. Some quit blogging for several minutes in grief. 

128

Perry is on with Megyn Kelly right now. In person.

She is actually being nice to him. Wow.

129

WTF happened to Perry last night?  Did he go blank at the start and just fall apart?

Posted by: LibertarianJim at November 10, 2011 02:11 PM (PReJ3)

In a word, yes.

Several blogs have the video for your viewing pleasure.  HotAir, Weasel zippers, etc.

130 Let me know when ace returns, so we can return to lynching.

I'm sticking with the rapin'.

131

WTF happened to Perry last night?  Did he go blank at the start and just fall apart?

He tried to name 3 agencies he would cut entirely, he named 2, forgot the Department of Energy.

I can't remember off hand which 2 he did name. Dept. of Commerce and some other one.

I really didn't think it was that - not his worst moment by any stretch in my estimation he's done much worse.

Apart from that, he actually did rather fine.

But for reasons which perplex me everybody else saw the end of the world or something. Whatever.

132 "Sometimes the right thing to do is not the popular thing to do." Especially when it's not the right thing to do.

133

Perry is on with Megyn Kelly right now. In person.

She is actually being nice to him. Wow.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter

Probably 'cause she thinks he's done.

134

{{{jumbo}}}

 

sorry to hear about that.......prayers and good wishes to him and his family

135 "Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports."

So he's a protectionist?  Are they all proposing that? 

Why should a business be penalized for going with the supplier that is best for their business, irrespective of where they are located? 

136 Sorry J^3.    Hope he finds another job soon. 

137 56 Cain's really not my guy but, I'm appalled at how the racist attacks continue on this blog. Posted by: Dude de'Afrique at November 10, 2011 01:56 PM (EL+OC) Cute, Barbarian. I have never accused any Cain criticizers of being racist. But if you think that's funny, carry on.

138 'Cause you know damn good and well that in a few years--if not sooner--the Dems are going to propose a stand-alone national sales tax. Ya it's like RomneyCare to ObamaCare.... Cain National Sales Tax turns into the Obama National Sales Tax-you all are so Geithnered Plan- Round II.

139

I know how he feels..   I lost 4 jobs in one year back in 2009.

Jesus.  My son lost his job and was out of work for 16 months.  It was awful.  He works at a call center now for a big bank and almost lost this one after being there for a year and a half.  Although he scored 5 out of 5 on customer service and length of calls, he wasn't meeting the sales quota.  Thankfully, they have re-vamped everything and he is finally breathing a sigh of relief. 

140

@ 121  It's the fact that the 9% is taxing gross sales and not income. That's the killer.

Yeah - and I'd still leave it off, either way.

Way I figure it, if we eliminated business taxes, this would do a lot to offset the wage/regulatory environment disadvantages that manufacturers in America also have to deal with.  As a result, we'd start to see insourcing increase (especially if coupled with tariffs, remove China's MFN status, etc.).  That means jobs, jobs, jobs, which in turn means more people making money to buy things, paying the national sales tax.  Couple this with the removal of the income tax, and I don't think most people would be hurting too much.  After all, with a national sales tax, you only pay it when you spend.  If you save it, you don't pay.  With the income tax now, you don't even get the option to save it all, since a percentage is skimmed off the top automatically.

141 Clarity and predictability and certainty are crucial in busniess planning and 999 does deliver this.  The current code is the bain of efficient investement decisions.

Posted by: Jorn at November 10, 2011 02:16 PM (ZS57m)

So now your changing your tune and saying Cains plan makes it easier to pay taxes on money you DIDN'T make.

Oh well that's good, let's vote for CAIN then. Jeebus.

142

>>>Hell I just saw your write up on how corporate taxes could actually go up....holy cow.

 

The worst part, pointed out by robtr, is that your company can lose money and you would still be taxed.

 

So let's say your sales were 1,000,000 but due to start up costs or unforseen costs,  the cost of doing business was 1,150,000.

 

That would mean that you lost $150,000.00

But under Cain's plan, not only did you lose that money, you would also have to pay 9% tax on your sales.

1,000,000.00 * 9%=  $90,000.00

 

So you owe the gov't 90 grand and you lost 150 grand.

 

Most start up businesses have operating loses in their first few years. (operating loses means you spend more money than you take in)

 

143 he struggled for a solid minute

I think it was only about 5 seconds the first time, but it seemed like an eternity.  But then he came back later to the same thing and again, it wouldn't come to him.

I was mentally pushing him to just spit it out dammit.  Never do lists off the cuff.

144 97 Sorry to hear that. Prayers for him and his family.

145 134

Perry is on with Megyn Kelly right now. In person.

She is actually being nice to him. Wow.

He's diddling her under the desk.

146
Hell I just saw your write up on how corporate taxes could actually go up....

holy cow.

Corporation dont pay taxes.... those new tax costs get built into COGs models and passed on to consumers.

147 damned sock

148

@ 137  He tried to name 3 agencies he would cut entirely, he named 2, forgot the Department of Energy.

Shoot, just pick any random three.  Chances are good you'll name three that need eliminated.

149 Paul Ryan is certainly smart, but he has a long record of big government support.  His argument is always the following:  Government in the hands of the wrong people will create market failures.  Democrats are the wrong people.  Informed people like me, Sir Paul Ryan, have the knowledge to know when to let the government let the markets work, until i'm voted out or ignored then the wrong people foul things up again.   So don't let me be ignored or voted out!  I'm Paul Ryan and I know when not to use the Powers and Authority of Big Government!

150 These tax plans don't worry me because none of them ever have a chance of passing. Hell we can't even pass a GD budget. The only fair tax plan is this:

1. Totally eliminate ALL federal taxes on everything.
2. Pass a flat tax of between 10 and 15 percent on all income from all sources with no exceptions and no deductions. Note that is income. For businesses that would be profit. And no complications, annual profit for the tax year. make this an amendment so future commies can't touch it.
3. Pass a balanced budget law/amendment that ties all spending to the previous year's income, except during a declared war. After the war is over any debt to be paid off with an increase in taxes of 1% to go strictly towards the debt until paid off.

And the only way this will ever happen is a Constitutional Convention. or perhaps a Japanese jumbo jet crashing into capitol hill during a joint session.

151

He's diddling her under the desk.

That's not his finger.

152 We need to get rid of the also-rans. As soon as we have debates with 3 or 4 contenders and extensive answers, people will see what a buffoon and airbag Cain is. "Naan - naan - naan", "bold plan" and "chiliyan model" wont be sufficient any longer. We saw it in his debate with Newt, where he babbled commonplace shit most of the time.  

153
So you're saying I win the boobie prize?  Well, ok.

154 Hey, I have a great idea! let's just keep knocking down ALL the GOP candidates, and guarrantee that the JEF gets re-elected.

excellent!

155 You people have all just gone fucking gay for that uppity Magic Negro who's dazzled you all with smoke and mirrors.  You're all going to get the government you deserve next year, one way or another.  God has been testing all of you, and so far you're not fucking measuring up.

Just look at poor Rick, snoozing over there.  He's lost his Goddamned mind over all this shit, and who wouldn't?!  Rick never had to worry about pseudo-intellectual Establishment things like stringing words together into sentences and not making funny twisty where-the-fuck-am-I? expressions in public until you Ivy League bastards showed up and put him on the spot.  This is your fault, you fake "conservatives".  Rick only wanted to sleep for 30 fucking minutes but I think I'm going to leave him there all afternoon to shake off what you shit-eating East Coast heathen freaks did to him last night.

Rick and I will pray for you, that you all finally see sense.  And if you don't like it you can just kiss my burning bush.

156 Megyn Kelley just filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against Perry for saying the word "package"

157

108 OK here's what I don't get-

we are basically a consumer driven economy and if we aren't in recession now-it sure as hell looks like we will be-shortly.

How does a national sales tax -at this time-

help the economic recovery?

 

If the system put in is the Fair Tax, it helps the economy by making the U.S. the tax haven of the world, drawing capital in from all sides.  Manufacturers based in the U.S. would have an advantage over any other country, because they operate tax-free and their products are exported without the internal costs they have now. 

 

Since new homes are taxed, all existing homes would increase in value to proportionately balance the difference in cost.  As the U.S. is the number one tourist destination in the world, every purchase made by visitors (or illegals) would contribute 23% to the treasury. 

 

The best answer to a recession is an increase in business and jobs.  The Fair Tax insures that if youÂ’re going to do business, you would be a fool to do it anywhere but here.

158 >> I'd like the 9-9-9 plan a lot better if it was just the 9-9 plan - without the business tax at all.

This is the another thing I don't get about Cain's plan. Or any of them for that matter.

Don't we all agree that businesses don't really pay taxes? They just pass the tax burden along to the ultimate consumer.

Cain even says this sometimes, he just doesn't get that it applies equally to his own plan.

If we're going to tax income, let's tax income (with businesses getting a deduction for the income taxed to individuals like they do now). If we're going to tax consumption, then let's tax consumption.

But 999 tries to establish a middle ground of both while Cain leads us to the promised land of the Fair Tax. Does anyone really believe we won't get stuck with this pig if it were to somehow pass?

And this is the centerpiece of his campaign. The answer to every question.

But, he's the truuuuuuue conservative deserving of the consolidated 75% Not Romney vote and anyone who doesn't believe that is a racist RINO. Sure, whatever.

159 I'm not saying Cain's plan is great.  I'm just saying that it is better than what we currently have.  People quietly embrace the notion of things like witholding because it the current system conditions them to not see what exactly is being gaffled off of the top.  At least cain's plan will shock people into seeing how bullshit this whole big goverment operation has become.  Then maybe we can demand an even lower tax rate and greater spending cuts.

160 Anita, did you just crawl out from under a rock?

161 Jorn Let's assume everything you say about 9-9-9 is a given- how are you going to sell the Dems on lowering corporate tax rates? How are you going to sell the Republicans on a- national sales tax? Then how are you going to time it all? What do you think a consumer will do when they are faced with- (a state sales tax) + (a 9% sales tax) -that will equal close to 17% in some places? In a Recession in a consumer driven economy what will be the effect of a national sales tax?

162 VIC FOR PRESIDENT!!!!

163 BTW, I thought it was the best debate so far.  Even the fringe candidates (by support levels anyway) made sense and stuck to generally Republican principles.  Bachmann was the best I think I've seen her be, and even Nor Luap made good solid points.

164

152......He's diddling her under the desk.

Heh. ....Seriously though, it was a good interview. I was amazed that Megyn was being nice to him, because she has seemed to have it in for him....letting people repeat lies about him, and not correcting him like she usually does on other things.

Megyn is a lawyer. And lawyers across the country hate Perry's guts bacause of the Tort Reform that he helped get passed in Tx.

165 Seconded!

166 Okay, we know you hate Cain. But what makes you think that his plan (or anyone's) will be implemented exactly as he presents it. I'm happy he has a very simple concept for two reasons: 1) It's very simple, 2) The kinks can be worked out of it while still keeping it simple. Cain has the balls to stick to his guns - his point is 'keep it simple'.

Your points are fair, but I don't know how these observations turn into such an irrational rejection of the man rather than just a rational alternative concept about how to address the problem.

167 edit : (a state sales tax) + (a national sales tax of 9%)-that will equal approximately 17% in some areas.... Plus you know what will be fun-the places that already have a county tax.... Hotel rooms in Vegas already have a tax rate that is *shocking* IIRC it's already at 18%. I think places like Orlando already do the same thing to hotel room rates...

168 Hey, I have a great idea! let's just keep knocking down ALL the GOP candidates, and guarrantee that the JEF gets re-elected.

excellent!

Just cause your candidate ain't getting a BJ from us? Dude sour grapes, it's primary season, were discussing. Get over it. Right now we are at least discussing policy. But to be quite honest I have nightmares of his October surprise response being anything like his harassment response.

169 There are so many flaws in Cain's plan and he is such an awful candidate that nobody needed to go on some "character assasination" scheme.

170 And you wanna know how come his "once we set the rate, the politicians won't dare touch it 'cause we'll be watching" is stupid and naive as shit?

Here's how: Because the income tax was sold on the same stupid reasoning: Hey, it's only a tax on the super rich, there's no way they'd ever tax us little guys--we're watching.

And watch they did. Inflation. Gradual creep. New taxes. Emergencies. On and on--they have their hooks in you, you are the cow, they'll get to you soon enough.

They have nearly 100 years of experience lying to you about how they are going to tax your income. First, they'll start with defining how you are taxed. When they need more revenue, they'll change the definition--sure, your rate is still 9% but now you're paying that on benefits. Then, they'll have an emergency. Just a temporary increase, you see. Promise. Only it'll be one that will never go away. "But the outrage?" You mean like how all the outrage over Obamacare got it repealed already? Right. That's why we're still counting on a Hail Mary to the Supreme Court; an option we won't even have on taxes.

I think you people who buy into the bullshit that they can't raise taxes 'cause we're watching must have been born yesterday. Did you not notice how they passed Obamacare? You don't think they can pull the same shit on a rate increase from 9% to 10% Do you forget that 150 or so seats in the House and a big chunk of the Senate are permanent Democrat seats? You know, they guys who love raising taxes?

171 130 999 eliminates the need for most businesses to pay for substantial external accounting services, it lowers the total cost that an employee is to a business because the business no longer has to remit payroll taxes.  Deductions are eliminated under 999, but so are some of the more onerous business costs currently associated with the current tax code.  There isn't necessarily are huge windfall to any party, but it does allow for capital investment to be more efficiently directed toward where it is needed rather than in labor costs and compliance costs.  Clarity and predictability and certainty are crucial in busniess planning and 999 does deliver this.  The current code is the bain of efficient investement decisions.

Posted by: Jorn at November 10, 2011 02:16 PM (ZS57m)

Tax preparation is a small part of what businesses -- even small ones -- use accountants for.

172

For those who donÂ’t think the Fair Tax plan would be voted in, just tell your average low-information voter that they will be getting a check each month from the government for $559 (family of four).

 

Nothing else will matter.  TheyÂ’ll demand it be instituted immediately.

173 And the only way this will ever happen is a Constitutional Convention. or perhaps a Japanese jumbo jet crashing into capitol hill during a joint session. Posted by: Vic *** Yep.

174 and, of course, Newt beat the moderators like rented redhaired step-mules.

I want him for VP to whoever.

175 Okay, we know you hate Cain. But what makes you think that his plan (or anyone's) will be implemented exactly as he presents it.

I've supported him thus far believing that it wouldn't, but taking the bold plan approach as showing he had the political courage to do big things.

But then he has just totally disappointed on how he hasn't come up to speed hardly at all on US Policy. Last month it was troubling, this month it is disqualifying. Why? I figured after he got tagged a few times in interviews and debates that he would go back and take it seriously, he hasn't, I can't seriously consider him as a result.

176 @ tasker

Great question.  I have no easy answer.  It requires the american people to take stock of the current financial mess and governments role in enabling, driving and ultimately causing this recession.  After the american people recognize that it requires very limited government involvement in order to let the market to continue to crater in order to re-establish market equilibrium and reintroduce the punishing aspects of the business cycle and then to begin to rebuild.  To use this as a lesson going forward that goverment intrusion creates failures larger than any thing the markets can.  Do i think people will swallow that bitter pill.  NO I DO NOT.  Someone will complain of hardship and demand aid and the politicians will continue to spend money in the form of future debt and fictional money.  Depressing huh

177

139......Probably 'cause she thinks he's done.

Maybe so, Hobbitopoly.

Megyn has been sort of pro-Romney....which I attributed to the fact that he has a Harvard law degree.

178 I'm gonna start calling folks that don't like Perry anti-Texan.

179

138 "Sometimes the right thing to do is not the popular thing to do."

Tell me about it.

180 177 There are so many flaws in Cain's plan and he is such an awful candidate that nobody needed to go on some "character assasination" scheme.

And yet, everyone did anyway.

181

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 10, 2011 02:32 PM (0q2P7)

You are a racist and a rino and you should be barred from voting. We cannot suddenly have standards, can we?

182 186 I'm gonna start calling folks that don't like Perry anti-Texan.

You'd be amazed how many Texans have never liked me.

183
Perry needs some PR advice from Jerry Sandusky.

184

I think you people who buy into the bullshit that they can't raise taxes 'cause we're watching must have been born yesterday. Did you not notice how they passed Obamacare? You don't think they can pull the same shit on a rate increase from 9% to 10% Do you forget that 150 or so seats in the House and a big chunk of the Senate are permanent Democrat seats? You know, they guys who love raising taxes?

EXACTLY!!

185 I agree that Cain shouldn't have thrown Perry under the bus and that Mark Block is a flake. 

186 Also if you don't like Romney then you're prejudiced against robots.

187 If the system put in is the Fair Tax, it helps the economy by making the U.S. the tax haven of the world, drawing capital in from all sides. Manufacturers based in the U.S. would have an advantage over any other country, because they operate tax-free and their products are exported without the internal costs they have now. OK how many manufacturers can get around Cain's all made in the USA-clause? Since new homes are taxed, all existing homes would increase in value to proportionately balance the difference in cost. People are taking huge hits when they sell their homes now in most markets now they have to a 9% sales tax? What do you think this will do to the recovery of the housing market...? As the U.S. is the number one tourist destination in the world See my comment about how in Las Vegas and Orlando-the cities and the counties add a tax rate already so that the tax on a hotel room is already near 18% IIRC -we are suppose to add another 9% national sales tax to that?

188 We need Newt to catch fire or someone to jump in. I want to vote for a president. Not a piece of Romney like shit.... I mean a piece of shit like Romney.

189 Can we get back to guest bloggers blogging more than once every three hours?

190 The issue is not how we can continue funding the government, the issue is how we can start de-funding huge portions of it.

I'm not interested in setting up new revenue streams for this bloated, corpulent, 6000-pound sow.

191

Tasker,

 

YouÂ’re confused.  The 9-9-9 plan of CainÂ’s is lunacy.

 

IÂ’m talking about the Fair Tax plan.

192

I think you people who buy into the bullshit that they can't raise taxes 'cause we're watching must have been born yesterday. Did you not notice how they passed Obamacare? You don't think they can pull the same shit on a rate increase from 9% to 10% Do you forget that 150 or so seats in the House and a big chunk of the Senate are permanent Democrat seats? You know, they guys who love raising taxes?

Doncha know? Cain is a True Conservative™. The normal rules dont apply here. Congress wont be able to raise taxes, just because of the sheer awesomeness of President Cain.

193 I'm beginning to think this War fella doesn't really take too kindly to Gov. Perry

194

You are a racist and a rino and you should be barred from voting. We cannot suddenly have standards, can we?

Posted by: Elize Nayden at November 10, 2011 02:34 PM (P/F96)

I get the racist part (we are all racists here), but the RINO part troubles me.

195

Does Newt have an economic policy out? If so, has anyone taken a look at it, is it any good? Newt's deficiencies aside, I seem to be liking me some Newt.

196 And, frankly, I'm not interested in turning over the presiding power to a guy with so little experience in the filth of politics he will become an easy mark for the scoundrels in BOTH political machines.

197 I'm not interested in setting up new revenue streams for this bloated, corpulent, 6000-pound sow.

This. 

Can't we go back to that hard scrabble budget of 2006, or even 2008?

198 Gross income is revenue less costs of goods sold. Thus, all direct labor is discounted from the taxed amount.

199 Depressing huh Posted by: Jorn at November 10, 2011 02:32 PM Yes, particularly when one party which accounts for about 50% of the country is not reality based-and the harsh reality that even Churchill recognized during WW II is government demands the art of compromise. And that was England-America is the melting part of pluralities...it's a miracle it's held together this long...

200

Could Cain supporters explain something to me?

What is his appeal? I simply don't see it.

He's not a policy wonk. He's not a foreign polciy wonk. He's not particularly good at debates. He's not very socially conservative.

I just don't see what it is about him.

I've laid my cards on the table. I like Perry's record. He's flawed in other areas, but he has a solid record on jobs and energy policy.

Romney has the electability thing going for him

Ron Paul has the purity libertarianism thing going for him

Santorum has social conservatism.

Newt has awesome debating skills and knowledge of history.

What is Cain's draw?

201

Has ANYBODY taken the time to look at this upside down???? Come on people ... !!!

If it has a six, it ain't a fix!

202 I don't understand the rush to fall in line behind Newt as the Anti-Mitt candidtate.  His records shows that he is Romney on steroids, but he just happens to be more clever and silver tongued.  Newt is a man that values his ideas more than pragmatic restraint.  He is no limited government conservative.  He is a smart government republican refuses to acknowledge that effciency is no bulwark against out of control government power. He's a fat faced L'enfant terrible.

203 @ 166 - Don't we all agree that businesses don't really pay taxes? They just pass the tax burden along to the ultimate consumer.

That's a great point.  When we cut business taxes, we're really cutting taxes on us all.

204 The issue is not how we can continue funding the government, the issue is how we can start de-funding huge portions of it.

Which is why I think we are arguing this tax stuff backwards. We should start with the percent of GDP the govt will run on and then find way to collect that amount. I would start with the amount of 15% and work down from there.

205 Cain has a deep voice... and deep pizza.

206 I find it hard to believe Perry is polling at 6%. Just reading the comments here and elsewhere, he really seems to have a lot of support.

207 I'm beginning to think this War fella doesn't really take too kindly to Gov. Perry Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 10, 2011 02:38 PM **** I've read enough of his comments...it's some Aggie thing. I think they roped him up and used him as an animal husbandry display...

208 No mention here of the "Princess Nancy" thing which is going to turn out to be a bigger issue for Cain than Chronic Brain Fade has been for Perry. 

First, because he said it and then said he was sorry he said it but then said that he shouldn't have apologized and that he said it "to make a point".  http://preview.tinyurl.com/7rawc8x  See a continuation of a pattern there? 

Second, because the media has picked up on the fact that this was a long-running Cain nickname for Pelosi on Cain's radio show and . . . wait, what?  Cain had a radio show?  Where he waxed eloquent to an audience of the faithful about all his personal pet peeves and brilliant ideas?   Wonder what other gems are hidden in that bonepile?  

209

What is Cain's draw?

Posted by: Ben at November 10, 2011 02:40 PM (wuv1c)

Hello? Outsider, non-career-politician, anyone?

210 201 I'm beginning to think this War fella doesn't really take too kindly to Gov. Perry

There will be no more War in my administration, missy.  You can just bank on that.

211 @Ben: maybe they just really like pizza.

212 Some asshole on Megyn's show just conflated PSU with Cain.

213 We'll get the candidate selected for us by leftwing pansies in the far northeastern "states" (more precisely, Neo-Europe) who will of course, talk down to us, promise to try to pretend to be conservative, and who will sell us all into Democrat slavery by 2014. Hoo-fucking-ray.

214 @103
Newt has tables comparing his plan to the other candidates'.  This is a link to the Gingrich v Romney table. 

215

@ 208 What is Cain's draw?

Don't blame me - I'm the guy who wishes it wasn't too late for Jim DeMint to get in the race.

216

Posted by: mjhlaw at November 10, 2011 01:53 PM (YQ4mh)

 

um, you always will have gross income. unless you did absolutely no work. i think the concept has escaped you.

217 Thanks, Y-not. That's a good summary table.

218

205......Can't we go back to that hard scrabble budget of 2006, or even 2008?

Budget? .....I remember those. But I don't think Fedzilla has had one of those since Hairy Reed took over the senate.

 

219 Can We Get Back To Criticizing Herman Cain On The Issues Now?

_{--Ssssshhhhh, don't tell Ace.}

220

"I'd point out to Cain that the current tax code, which has been a mess for decades, didn't get this way overnight. It started off simple but over time politicians put in provisions to favor things like, say, trade protectionism and inner-city revitalization. But what do I know?"

 

Exactly the point Cain is making, the difference is with a visdible  9 9 9  approach everyone will know when the political panders go for  10 10 10 and everyone, having skin in the game will oppose, rather than, OK tax the payers but not us little guys, or tax tobacco, oil and alcohol, but not condoms, and candy bars.

thanks for makin Cains point even though you didn't know you did!

221 Tasker, YouÂ’re confused. The 9-9-9 plan of CainÂ’s is lunacy. IÂ’m talking about the Fair Tax plan. Posted by: jwest at November 10, 2011 02:38 PM ****** Crap sorry-I read these threads backwards and sideways- thought you were a Cain man.

222

Don't blame me - I'm the guy who wishes it wasn't too late for Jim DeMint to get in the race.

Me too.

223

@ 214 I find it hard to believe Perry is polling at 6%. Just reading the comments here and elsewhere, he really seems to have a lot of support.

Well yeah, and over at Free Republic, Cain is probably pulling 80% or better.

224 I wonder how often Democrats will use Bush's "IÂ’ve abandoned free market principles to save the free market system" against us in the general.

I still shudder over that one.

225 I re-read the live blog around the moment where Perry had is bad moment. A lot of people were freaking out but Ace went silent for awhile. He came back and seemed to act like nothing happened. It was kinda scary.

226 You Can't Make Me Do the Gingrich! Damn it man....

227

What is Cain's draw?

Posted by: Ben at November 10, 2011 02:40 PM (wuv1c)

He's hated by the right people.

228 Joffen There was a brief appearance by- Ace's Caretaker...

229 Club for Growth's white paper on Gingrich.  They published them on all the candidates, but some may be outdated - not sure if they've been adding to them as the candidates release their plans. 


Someone upthread said Gingrich is like Romney on steroids.  To me what you get with Newt is not tons better ideology (than Romney), but you do get someone who knows DC and has successfully pounded the shit out of Democrats on the national stage.  Whether or not Newt still has it in him is a separate matter, but I don't see Romney having that characteristic at all. 

230

214 I find it hard to believe Perry is polling at 6%. Just reading the comments here and elsewhere, he really seems to have a lot of support.

Don't dispair, Joffen. .....I always take these polls with a grain of salt. Polls can be so easily skewered to show whatever you want them to.

Perry has been wearing himself out on the campaign trail.....shaking hands, talking to groups, etc. ....Retail politics. That is what gets votes in a primary.

 

231 I hope Ben didn't actually expect honest, logical answers when he asked what Cain's draw is. I suspect that it's because nobody really supports the guy. I don't think Cain supporters really exist. If they do, the suck at making a case for him.

232 A couple of days ago the polls I saw (Ras maybe, can't remember) showed two tiers: Cain/Romney in the twenties and Gingrich/Perry in the teens. 

233 chique , i'd ignore it, he's been swinging a bat at everything the last week.

234 @tasker: yes that was pretty damn funny.

235 I think Perry is a smooth operator on the job, but he sure does come across as the dumbest SOB in the room when he's trying to make a sell. 

I think Cain is about to come off the rails with his 9-9-9 pitch.  There are a variety of ways to talk about tax code simplification without sounding like you're on constant repeat. 

I think Cain's is rightly assuming that most voters are only vaguely familiar with 9-9-9 and that his compact message bombardment will help him with indifferent voters.  BUT his message needs to be disseminated by a friendly press, blogosphere, radio network, and they are beginning to laugh at his constant 9-9-9 shout outs.  How long before they begin to viciously mock the message he's trying to pile drive into indifferent voters?  It's all ready starting.  he needs to mix things up now or he'll become a parody by the end of the month.

236 I don't understand the rush to fall in line behind Newt as the Anti-Mitt candidtate.

He wasn't at the top of the list.

#1 Michelle: True Conservative.
Political Suicide: Demonstrated she couldn't keep the crazy bottled up long enough to make it through a campaign. Gaffed hard in month one, taking the reasonable "Vaccines for non casually communicable disease are a personal choice" to "Vaccines are harmful"

#2 Perry: Texas Governor with a good record.
Weakness: Can't get through a debate without finding a huge cow pie to step in.
Political Suicide: Looked his base right in the eye and called them "heartless" for having a different opinion about an issue.

#3 Cain: That business CEO dude with the bold plan.
Weakness: Doesn't know US Policy well.
Political Suicide: Doesn't take US Policy seriously enough to learn it.

Remaining candidates
Santorum: Most conservative we have left?
Weakness: Likable as an IRS auditor.

Paul: He does have a solid grasp on fiscal policy.
Weakness: Thinks Iran won't nuke the S* out of us if they had the chance.

Newt: WOW does he KICK ASS in debates.
Weakness: So much baggage he travels with a forklift. Fairly moderate.

237 228

"I'd point out to Cain that the current tax code, which has been a mess for decades, didn't get this way overnight. It started off simple but over time politicians put in provisions to favor things like, say, trade protectionism and inner-city revitalization. But what do I know?"

 

Exactly the point Cain is making, the difference is with a visdible  9 9 9  approach everyone will know when the political panders go for  10 10 10 and everyone, having skin in the game will oppose, rather than, OK tax the payers but not us little guys, or tax tobacco, oil and alcohol, but not condoms, and candy bars.

thanks for makin Cains point even though you didn't know you did!

Posted by: Concealed kerry or submit at November 10, 2011 02:46 PM (vXqv3)

No. Please try not to be so dense. The current tax code started out pretty damned simple: An income tax on the super rich. In fact, some of them were proud to pay it, proved they were rich. And they'd frame their return for all to see. It was that simple. Simpler by far than Cain's plan. And in less than a few generations, look where we are. 

But, I'm sure you are right, this time it'll be different. You and Cain are soooo much smarter than decades of human experience. I mean, it's not like they'd raise taxes the same way they have been, you know, "We're going to have to raise taxes on everyone OR we can just tax those guys over there that no one really likes much anyway: Which is it?"

238 The audience laughed at him when he said he has "a bold plan". They fucking laughed at him.

239

I'm not interested in setting up new revenue streams for this bloated, corpulent, 6000-pound sow.

Has that sow a nice booty?

240

There is one more thing that the Fair Tax system bringsÂ…

 

Freedom.

 

Right now, the IRS can do all sorts of mean, nasty, ugly things to you.  YouÂ’re guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.  They can seize whatever you have and basically screw up your life to the point of no return.  With the Fair Tax, if youÂ’re just an average citizen who works and earns a living, it would be as if the IRS didnÂ’t exist.  No one would have the power to know what you did for a living or how much you made doing it.  You would be secure in your home, property and papers (someone wrote that somewhere).

241 willow, you're a dear. I wasn't in the country during Newt's time as Speaker, but I don't see how he could be compared to Romney in terms of being a lib in GOP clothing (the couch-BFF thing with Princess Nancy notwithstanding). What I wonder is how each of the candidates would respond to the voice of the base or the people were they president. I am a believer in Friedman's idea that what is needed is consequences for not doing the right thing and not necessarily having the right person. And has anyone mentioned that Obama is a SCOaMF?

242 @244

Solid round-up of where we stand ant the moment.  I'm hoping that the race consolidating around Gingrich, Cain and Romney will force each of them to lay it on the line.  Cain has an opportunity at the moment.  He can begin to substantively discuss the issues or he can continue to ride the slick marketing approach.  If it's the latter then i think he's done.  Maybe the rise of Newt will force herman to show if he really knows what the F%$k he's talking about or if he truly is winging it.

243 Posted by: LibertarianJim at November 10, 2011 03:01 PM (PReJ3) ---- Seriously? That's all you've got? "They're hated by the right people." Who are the right people?

244 a herman cain thread?  #original

245 Arguably, the main reason more people don't take her story seriously is that the mainstream media have been skillfully spun by the White House and Clinton's lawyers. By playing on the class and partisan prejudices of reporters, as well as their squeamishness and ambivalence about printing stories about the sex lives of politicians, Clinton's operatives have done a brilliant job of discrediting Paula Jones and her case.

246 What I wonder is how each of the candidates would respond to the voice of the base or the people were they president. I am a believer in Friedman's idea that what is needed is consequences for not doing the right thing and not necessarily having the right person.

chique',  I guess the consequence for them is being voted out in  the next election, but yeah it's hard to realize the  state our country is in and not be certain whoever gets the prize will do what's needed, do they have the guts to do what's right rather than expediant for themselves, will they be willing to have their popularity be at risk? will they move fast instead of being willing to lose a second term?
yeah with Newt, i've heard about the wife and cancer, and it seems debunked. his pelosi moment, (was stupid) but i'm not very knowledgeable about his previous conduct or efforts, He sure sounds put togther now.

247 will they move fast instead AND being willing to lose a second term?

248 I think I finally get it.  Cain is running for Commerce Secretary in the Romney Administration.  Which would explain why he hates Perry so much... ok, that's not all that funny, but I don't believe for a second that he's really running for President. 

249

Hate to commit historical recollection here, but...

Back in 1980, a candidate was running for President with gimmicky tax-cut plan.  His plan was to stimulate the economy with an across the board 30% tax rate cut.  The Repub establishment mocked it as simplistic, irresponsible, a budget-buster, unrealistic, and undoable (the Dems had controlled both houses of Congress for 26 years!).  The Dems dismissed it as dangerous, a gift to the fatcats, crazy, etc.

During the course of the campaign, the candidate tweaked his plan to spread the 30% tax cut over 3 years, 10% cut each year.  As a concession to his critics.

As we know, the candidate, Ronald Reagan, won, and his victory swept in enough Senators to give the GOP the Senate.  In office, he tweaked his plan again, from 10-10-10 to 5-10-10.  Since there were enough conservative Boll Weevil Dems to support it, he got his plan passed--"the Reagan tax cuts."  A lot of his original supporters (like Jack Kemp) thought he made a mistake by compromising, they believed a fast 30% tax cut wd have gotten the economy a faster, stronger recovery, but we'll never know.  As it happens, the recovery began almost immediately after the 1st 10% cut in 7/82:  the stock market boom began in. 8/82.

This tax plan was almost universally mocked as a reckless gimmick, by both parties, when it was first unveiled.

People, remember this history before you make fun of the 9-9-9 plan, 12 months before election day.

250 254 Posted by: LibertarianJim at November 10, 2011 03:01 PM (PReJ3)
----
Seriously? That's all you've got? "They're hated by the right people." Who are the right people?

Posted by: Joffen at November 10, 2011 03:03 PM (zLeKL)

The people that hate them, of course. Duh!

251 What's Herman Cain's draw. Well, Herman Cain's last name has a long 'A' sound & ends in an 'n'. That's enough to confuse the Palin supporters that Herman Cain is just the same as her. Let Herman Cain tell you one thin about Herman Cain. Herman Cain has a bold plan called 9-9-9. Herman Cain's new campaign slogan. "Don't ask, don't tell." Think about it. It works on so many levels.

252

259 ......I think I finally get it. Cain is running for Commerce Secretary in the Romney Administration. Which would explain why he hates Perry so much... ok, that's not all that funny, but I don't believe for a second that he's really running for President.

There are any number of treats that Romney could bestow upon Cain....or any others who help him get what he wants.

Romney owns Clear Channel Radio. ....Being appointed the CEO of that operation would be a sweet position for Cain to retire with.

253

Posted by: JewishOdysseus at November 10, 2011 03:16 PM (PYxvn)

And that '80 candidate was the two term Governor of the biggest state in the Union and a leading inellectual, public voice for conservatism and not a babbling buffoon who didnt know shit about American politics.

That Cainiacs actually dare to make that comparison is baffling. 

254 Heh.  Perry is getting more TV face time now than he would have without the gaffe - far more than the other candidates today, and he'll get to talk about things besides his brain fart, and look human besides.

Will it help?  Who knows, but it probably won't hurt either.

255 Will it help? Who knows, but it probably won't hurt either. Posted by: grognard at November 10, 2011 03:31 PM (NS2Mo) 'Til the next time it happens. And the time after that. And after that. Sorry, the dude's just not going to pul it together when it comes to debating. He's had several 'last chances.' They're being nice now, but I tremble to think about a Perry vs Obama debate. Dude would forget his own name.

256 Rick Perry is the dumbest cracker in Texas.  He left that rock there as a clear message to all the good ol boys and black folks and now he wants to spread that message all around the country.  It's clear why Cain doesn't like him and won't support him.  Also, rick perry stole his flat tax idea from herman cain.  Perry doesn't just step in shit he's the one dropping the pile that he wind up steppin' in.  Texas deserves better than this old drunkard and racist!

257 I'm going to never back off the need to have the tax code redone and the 9-9-9 plan is hardly worse than what we have now. For many people, that means lower tax rates than they're paying right now.

And once more: anyone who calls Cain an idiot or stupid is simply either ignorant or deliberately deceptive. The man may not be the smoothest speaker in interviews on earth but he's not a dolt.

258 I'm not even sure Noot is running for President either.  It's possible his ego is big enough to think he deserves it, and with the shallowness of this field, maybe he sees an opening, but I figured if anyone out of this bunch was most likely running for the V.P. slot, it was him.  Imagine it, him being President of the Senate!  Then he could exact some measure of revenge on those who dun him wrong when he was Speaker... or something like that.  I still think he's a creep who got schooled by Clinton, and he's never quite gotten over it because he thought he was King Smartypants of Washington.

259

And once more: anyone who calls Cain an idiot or stupid is simply either ignorant or deliberately deceptive.

Strawman. Nobody says Cain is stupid. His problem is ignorance and being too lazy or too full of himself to correct that.

260 Yes, that's another disturbing thing I've noticed with Cain since I started listening to him regularly. He's not particularly bright, either, I don't what some piece of paper says he has a degree in, or else he's so arrogant about how smart he is that he renders himself mostly stupid for practical, leading a nation matters. No thanks.

261 Yeah, I don't think Cain is stupid, just not very good at politics.  How anyone can listen to him and think he's qualified to be President is beyond me.

262 I think everyone fretting about his tax plan should just take a breath.

1. Bills have to come from the Congress.
2. They will get fiddles with by said Congress.
3. What are the odds that even IF Congress formulates some tax plan a la Cain's 9-9-9 that his plan is what we'll get. (probably worse but that's a different subject.)

Let's think;
1. do we want someone who's going to jettison obamacare?
2. do we want someone who will nominate conservative judges (SCJ)
3. do we want someone who'll rein in the House and stand up to the Senate (if Reps don't take it and even if they do)?

I'm voting for the guy who'll govern as a conservative and pro business anti spending, cut the budget.

I'm not voting for anyone according to some plans they have for bills. In fact the first person who says they'll veto any tax increases, spending increases without maximum cutting AND won't bother adding any more regulations and let businesses get on with making money. Gets my vote. Oh and drill baby drill.

Let's keep our eyes on the ball and not on the bunnies that even our candidates are flashing up on the screen.

This is where Newt looks a little better but Cain looks great and Romney of course is more of the same. Perry is toast; stick a fork in him he's done.

263 All good critiques.

But at least Cain has a detailed plan, and it can be re-worked by a cooperative congress.

Not that I want Cain as president...

...still looking for a candidate.

264 Am I missing something or did Cain say the 9-9-9 plan met 5 simple criteria, and then only listed 3 of those in his explanation? Not the end of the world I guess, just thought it was a little odd.

265 5 simple criteria. 1: Simple vs Complex 2: Fair (Everyone is subject to same rate) 3: Transparent/Visible (no hidden taxes or deductions) 4: Tax burden is borne up front (so there is immediate tax payer resistance to politicians raising rates) 5: Revenue Neutral (current obligations are sustained during the transition from codes) Then government spending can be tackled, then long term debt can be seriously addressed

266 "the people will hold the politicians' feet to the fire."   We can always count on politicians to do the will of the people.   That really worked to stop Obamacare.

267 If not for the color of his skin, people would be far more critical of Cain's "plan", the things he says, and the man himself. I don't think it's as simple as what some liberals charge ("Conservatives trying to prove they aren't racist by running a black guy"). No. But It's as if some people are hesitant to call Cain out, for fear of being labeled racist. Thus, they shy away from pointing out some of the things he says as being stupid. Cain says a lot of stupid and undisciplined things. Some think that it's a good thing, i.e. it's proof that he isn't a polished politician. This is anti-intellectualism. Ignorance celebrating ignorance? Scary. They aren't just little gaffes that we would all make. Those can and should be easily understood and forgiven. No, I'm talking about some of the really stupid and inconsistent things he has said on the major issues like his 9-9-9 plan, abortion, China, etc.

I agree with Ace, I don't think Cain even understands his own 9-9-9 plan. And he sounds like a fool answering every question the same way ("9-9-9"). Would we tolerate that from a white candidate? I don't think so. If it isn't a skin color thing, then what explains it? His folksiness? I don't think so. The reason he always answers with "9-9-9" is because he has so little (nothing?) to say about the other issues. He draws a blank.

And as for the 9-9-9 plan - it is NOT a good plan. Perry's plan is far better (fyi, I don't like Perry at all, but I can still support his plan). It would never pass congress anyway, so why are we pretending that it would? Could you imagine what the final plan, passed by congress, would actually look like? lol. Nothing resembling what we are discussing today.

His resume is being overhyped in terms of his intellectual capabilities. Most people lack a wide range of experience in business, because they've mainly been employees rather than business owners, so they may not understand what I mean by that. To be sure, he has had a specific kind of success in business. (A very different mind and success vs. Romney, for example. You can decide which is better). He has a certain kind of "smarts". I do not think the man is generally stupid (though he does say plenty of stupid things and is not very articulate). Cain is very good at certain things, but he is terribly lacking in other areas. IMO, the kind of intellect that you need to be a good POTUS is not the same as the smarts needed to succeed at Godfather's pizza.

When faced with evidence to the contrary, those who are enamoured with Cain refuse to recognize reality. According to his supporters, Cain is going to surround himself with experts to give him advice on the many things he is obviously ignorant of. One can debate if that is acceptable or desirable for a POTUS. But when given the opportunity to show his leadership abilities, in terms of running his campaign we have seen someone who has NOT made good decisions and someone who has NOT surrounded himself with capable people. How can anyone who has been watching his campaign from the beginning conclude otherwise? Mark Block? Seems like a nice guy. Love the smoking ad. But he's way out of his league. He can't even speak intelligently when questioned by the media. Without any proof, blaming the Perry campaign and now the Democrats. The last name (accuser #1) mix-up. Yet, Cain chose him and Cain sticks with him. We've seen that kind of behaviour in presidents before - sticking with people who are incompetent. Not a good sign, folks. The way he has mishandled the entire sexual harassment issue - no matter what the truth really is - is not "refreshingly non-politician"...it is INCOMPETENCE. There IS a difference, folks.

I like Cain. I don't think he should be the nominee. And whenever I see people ignoring reality because they just want to BELIEVE what they believe, I become concerned. That's the kind of stuff that got the disastrous Obama elected.

268 Just checked. Yep, Romney still sux.

269

Anybody who speaks ill of Dr. Herman Cain is an anti-American puke.  If you're not for Cain then by definition you're a RINO, which means you need to be purged from the Republican Party once and for all.

Cain-Gingrich, '12. We're Purifying the RINO GOP one Pizza and One Tiffany's Necklace at a Time!

270 CMAJH wrote: "Romney owns Clear Channel Radio. ....Being appointed the CEO of that operation would be a sweet position for Cain to retire with." That's a lie. And how stupid rumors get started, or spread.

271 Elize wrote: "That Cainiacs actually dare to make that comparison is baffling. " Sorry to share the truth with you, but Reagan's tax cut plan was ridiculed much as Cain's has been, and yet when Reagan was elected he passed much of it through a 1/2 Democrat Congress. I compared the plans and their public reception, not the candidates. Do you recall how Reagan was lampooned as a crazed dinosaurian B-movie trigger-happy war-monger? Yet he took it with good cheer, and continued to work hard, and he won. Cain will do the same. Take a chill pill.

272 So with Cain's plan, you would be paying $375,000.00 more

Nothing personal, kinda skimmed until post #110 -- YOU (business) do not pay jack.

Cain's plan, the current system, flat tax, whatever... the end consumer pays all taxes.The ultimate goal of the Cain plan (FAIRAX) is to shove into your face what you are already paying and cause certain cultural shifts.

273 I have been absent for some time, but now I remember why I used to love this website. Thanks , I will try and check back more frequently. How frequently you update your web site?

274 Cain = Reagan?  Not even on the same planet.

275 The ultimate goal of the Cain plan (FAIRAX) is to shove into your face what you are already paying and cause certain cultural shifts.

The small businesses going bust cultural shift is already underway.  I don't think it needs any more help.

276
Excellent blog, thanks for the share. I'll be a regular viewer.

277 Amazing. Perry has the worst debate performance of any candidate in recorded history and that means it's time for.... more Cain bashing. Just plain goofy.

278 Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it. Look advanced to more added agreeable from you! However, how could we communicate?

279 The ultimate goal of the Cain plan (FAIRAX) is to shove into your face what you (THE END CONSUMER) are already paying and cause certain cultural shifts.

The small businesses going bust cultural shift is already underway.  I don't think it needs any more help.

Posted by: toby928© Perrykrishna

You have clearly indicated that taxpayers knowing what they actually pay in tax, that is 'business' does not pay tax their customers do, is bad for business.

280

But you and Ace have the answers!!!

Right!!?

I mean that whole tax code thing is sooo easy to navigate.

You guys rock!!!

You can tell us who sucks.

But that's about it.

Awesome guys!

 

 

281 I was very happy to search out this web-site.I needed to thanks to your time for this excellent read!! I definitely enjoying each little little bit of it and I have you bookmarked to check out new stuff you weblog post.

282 Say, whatever happened to Purple Avenger...

283 Once, just for laughs, Herman Cain called in a bomb threat to the Special Olympics. He began the call with, "Hi; this is Rick Perry..."

284 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a mierable failure.

285 Bwaaaahahahaaa, suck it Perry's fairies, his bumbling was the ultimate example of big hat, no saddle. I was literally in tears from laughing at Perry's lack of command of his own mind.

286 This is an excellent post. It is very informative. Thank you so much. I'll be a regular viewer.

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288 This blog cannot "go back" to criticizing Cain on the issues because it never did in the first place.

289 Actually, I think you ought to take as many days off from criticizing Cain as you spent pushing the BS allegations, up until the big "_{oops, I'm sorry}" a few days ago.
Let's say 10 days.  Just shut yer @#$%^ flap, you done enough already.

Just sayin' ....

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