1 You knew the shootin' was gonna start eventually.

2 thank god it's the camel's turn.

3 The people need a High Speed Peace Train

4 Mubarak is a pro-American strongman who maintains a working relationship with Israel. Why would we want him out when what we're likely to get in his place is a Taliban-style Islamist government run by Muslim Brotherhood thugs?

5 Fortunately, we can trust Obama to do the right thing and demonstrate decisive leadership.

6 the EPA should step down, too.

7 any new polls out on President TapewormEasy B+ke today?

8 I am not sure that we should automatically be cheering the anti-government forces - word has it that the original reformers have pretty much been displaced by the Islamicists, Communists, and general all-around thugs on the streets. The Average Guys are now hunkering down and trying to ride out the storm, appalled at what has been let loose.

9 Kelly's friends bear the brunt of the instability.

10

Do we know for certain that the pro-regime demonstrators are members (security forces, etc) of the regime?  I'm asking because I don't know.

Every dictator- from Sadam Hussein to Syria to Mubarak- has a segment of the population that supports him, be it by favorable treatment or otherwise.  Furthermore, there have to be people who are pretty pissed off about the effect the demonstrations have had on them personally.  I can't imagine that those in the large tourist industry are happy at seeing their business die, same with those who've been robbed, had their homes and businesses looted, etc.

Then again, it could just be government thugs.

From what I've read, a "transitional" (a transition from one form of authoritarianism to another, most likely) government by the military would probably get wide acceptance.

11 8 I am not sure that we should automatically be cheering the anti-government forces - word has it that the original reformers have pretty much been displaced by the Islamicists, Communists, and general all-around thugs on the streets. The Average Guys are now hunkering down and trying to ride out the storm, appalled at what has been let loose.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 02, 2011 04:19 PM (dBG0+)

And after a week of no commerce, I'm pretty sure they're getting hungry. 

12 Ace I gotta disagree with you here. We should have and still should keep the fuck out of this in Public. And the last thing we want to do in public or behind the scenes is to undermine the Egyptian Military, because that will only lead to an Islamic Takeover. Bitch and moan about Mubarak all you want, but unless you can garruntee better alternative, you better be damn careful.

13

Imagine we started having food protests. Everything goes fine for a couple of days and then who shows up to take advantage of the situation and start looting and killing?

14
We assert our authority to regulate spilled Molotov cocktails since they contain oil.

15 Mubarak's state TV is antisemitic conspiracy 24/7, blaming "zionists" for the protests. The "protesters" are MB goons who blame the "zionists" for Mubarak. All Egyptians (yes, including the "Christians") are illiterate scum of the Earth who's grievances do not bother me one fucking bit

16 Imagine we started having food protests. Everything goes fine for a couple of days and then who shows up to take advantage of the situation and start looting and killing? Posted by: dagny at February 02, 2011 04:20 PM (ZuJDg) Jessie Jackson and Sharpei Sharpton?

17 Obama wouldn't say boo about the Iranian protests, now he's all in favor of the Egyptian ones...that tells me there's a theocracy in the offing and Obama wants to equal Jimmy Carter's record.

18

Mubarak is a pro-American strongman who maintains a working relationship with Israel. Why would we want him out when what we're likely to get in his place is a Taliban-style Islamist government run by Muslim Brotherhood thugs?

You must have missed my speach in honour of Rashid Khalidi. 

Perhaps, I went over all of this in great detail?  I don't recall. 

There's some videotape of it.  I think my friends at the LA Times have a copy of it...maybe they let you see it.

...Nah, I'm just kidding.  You can't see that, either.

Now.  Eat the Saladin...I mean, uh, the Salad.

19 Somehow I have a feeling that the MuBarack forces may not be exactly that. Funny that their signs are printed and in english. Weird that they waited days. Odd that they are messing with the museums. I just have an odd feeling that isn't right.

20 That SOB Bush really screwed this up in Egypt... Thank god he is gone and we have a real man as president.

21 Regrettably the time has come 4 Pres. Mubarak 2 step down & relinquish power. ItÂ’s in the best interest of Egypt, its people & its military.

Power vacuums are rarely good.

22 I understand that Obama was trying to engineer a soft landing here I was?

23 The Muslim Brotherhood wouldn't have it any other way.

24

Jessie Jackson and Sharpei Sharpton?

Yes and who else?

25 Obama pushed Mubarak to resign.

Mubarak said "yeah, you and whose army Mr. no-balls?"

Then the inevitable occurred.

26 Interim President Dick Cheney.

27
Power vacuums are rarely good.

Says you....

28 At some point, someone has to stop the rioters. None of us -- and that includes the witless talking heads on TV -- knows without question the motives or identity of the forces now trying to stop the damage and death on Egypt's streets.

Riots feed on themselves. Without food, without any normal commerce and, most important, without law, they will intensify.

Who wins? The Muzzie Bros, that's who.

I'm half expecting to hear Osama Obama announce that he's sending more billions and  food to Egypt, so the rioters ("those with legitimate grievances") won't starve themselves and their worthless nation.

Oh, and troops, to do the work Egyptians won't do.

29 Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at February 02, 2011 04:22 PM (3lx5O)

I know your speech in Cairo solved all my problems once and for all, but I'm still working out some of its finer points.

30

I am not sure that we should automatically be cheering the anti-government forces - word has it that the original reformers have pretty much been displaced by the Islamicists, Communists, and general all-around thugs on the streets. The Average Guys are now hunkering down and trying to ride out the storm, appalled at what has been let loose.

Mubarak is going out one way or another- be it in the following days/weeks, or in October.  Right now, he's the weak horse in this; what do we accomplish by overtly backing him?

I suspect that the best way to appease the crowds and to limit the influence of the MB is to support his ouster and back a military takeover of a "transitional" government.  The billions in military aid should hold some sway over such a government.

31 If this goes down ugly... I offer the scenario:

- Jordan falls
- Yemen falls

Saudi's are shitting their pants.  Israel is at status:  Oh Fuck.

32 7 any new polls out on President TapewormEasy B+ke today?


Rasmussen: "41% give Obama good marks on response to crisis in Egypt"

It says people expect the unrest to spread but they don't want America to interfere.

33 There is a run on the market for goats and sheep fat lubricant. Prices are soaring.

34 I suspect that the best way to appease the crowds and to limit the influence of the MB is to support his ouster and back a military takeover of a "transitional" government. The billions in military aid should hold some sway over such a government. Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 04:25 PM (SY2Kh) And how do you do that?

35 I'm half expecting to hear Osama Obama announce that he's sending more billions and  food to Egypt

I'm thinking 'peace-keeping' forces-because protecting the muslim world from the sort of stereotypes these riots may generate is my number one job.

36

King Barry is under a huge stress because he can't figure out who to bow to.

37 Did anyone really consider Obama's actions? It appears he is flaming the problem.....Could he be helping his brothers and sisters ???

38 It's time to play what cards we have and do what we can to get Mubarak out and get some sort of interim government (probably featuring an Army leader at its head) set up.




Worked like a charm in South Vietnam back in '63.  Let's give it another whirl....

39 I say we nuke Cairo from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

40 Why does everyone assume the "protesters" are so pure of motive ?

41 If this goes the way of Iran '79, be prepared for tons of refugees. Those first protesters, the real ones, will soon learn the meaning of "be careful what you wish for".

42 It's time to play what cards we have and do what we can to get Mubarak out and get some sort of interim government (probably featuring an Army leader at its head) set up. Worked like a charm in South Vietnam back in '63. Let's give it another whirl.... Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 02, 2011 04:27 PM (L8y7Q) And in Iran also

43 If this goes the way of Iran '79, be prepared for tons of refugees. Those first protesters, the real ones, will soon learn the meaning of "be careful what you wish for". Posted by: t-bird at February 02, 2011 04:28 PM (FcR7P) Amen

44

@mccain ur shittin me #pharoahmubarak

45 I think this calls for Obama to quickly rush the stage.  Get Air Force One there immediately, so President "I won" can part the sea and give 'em loaves and fishes.
Yep. That ought to do it.

46 Why does everyone assume the "protesters" are so pure of motive ?

Judge us by our actions!

47

To Laurie David's Cervix,

  I am rested, tan, and relaxed!  Ready to go at Barry's call....

48

Riots feed on themselves. Without food, without any normal commerce and, most important, without law, they will intensify.

Sure. But is it the people who have been pro-government or someone else? Internationally who sponsors riots? Who were throwing molotov cocktails in Greece? Who burns things at G-20 summits? Who attacked the british banks and the prince and horseherface?

If the tea partiers were caught in a riot, what would they do? They would clear out, dig a trench or build a wall and protect their property. What would seiu thugs do? Loot, kill, steal, murder. Anarchists? Communists? Islamists?

49

I have more than a few problems with McCain but I'd rather him in charge at times like this than Obama.

On the upside, Obama has a history of following McCain's lead on things like this.

Posted by: DrewM. at 04:13 PM     But didn't McCain.....you know......in 2008.....didn't he lose......ah, fuck.....nevermind.

50 "$3 Billion a year for 30 years should have bought us some influence here..."

Yes, it should, but foreign countries have a bad habit of not staying bought.  It's not just politicians this applies to.  Sadly, we're dealing with people of a country, some of whom like us, some of whom, not so much, and some who hate us because of our association with Israel.  We're seen by some as a rich country who by rights have a moral obligation to send them money simply because we have more - the same entitlement/redistributionist mentality we see here on the left and among welfare recipients.  The fact that this is being agitated by Islamicists who out-and-out hate us will tend to move people's sentiments there as well; plus, Mubarek is seen not just as an unliked despot, but and America-supported despot.

All of these militate against America in the Egyptian public sentiment.

This situation certainly makes me think twice about foreign aid.

I know there's been a lot of debate about whether we should be the policemen of the world; it seems to me that a policeman usually gets paid to keep the peace and protect the locals.  I'm wondering if this situation is telling us we need to have an intelligent conversation about out role in the world.

51 Yes. Another speech should do the trick. They love when I address the world.

52
tic toc tic toc

Forget about me already????

53

You know...at the same time the Tunisian Tumult started up, there was a Document Leak (of fake docs?) that sought to incite a Pali uprising.

Anyone else remember that?  It seems like there were several fuses lit recently, all seem designed to fomentt unrest on the Arab Street.

54 Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 04:20 PM (SY2Kh)

The reports are that they are being bussed in and let through the security cordon (where as pro-reformers are being stopped).

Also interesting...the internet was turned back on just in time to cover their arrival.

They may not be issuing a press release but the evidence seems pretty good it's an organized effort that is at least being tacitly supported by government.

55 But...with regime backed violence breaking out against pro-reform/freedom forces, the US simply can not sit back and pretend to be even handed.

Really? We (Obama) have been sitting on our asses and encouraging the Muslim Brotherhood who is a terrorist front. El Baradei and his group of Iranian backed thugs did not accept the compromise Mubarak offered, which is actually fair- stay in power for 7 months and then transition power.

But they refused and ignored the order to go home. On top of that, the"peaceful" protesters (supported by Hamas, et al pouring over the borders) have started ramping up the violence, which is not getting reported. Cripes they tried to steal King Tut's mummy.

Yeah, so call me confused. Compromise means both side give something. The Muslim Brotherhood and El Baradei gave nothing. What is Mubarak and his supporters supposed to do, take it up the squeakhole while the peasants loot the palace?

56 What's Obama going to do?

Fore!

57 Well brother Barack, maybe we should both step down together.

58

They're running down protestors with a tank! Wait, it's a bicycle...

It's a civil war! Oh, looks like everybody's going home...

59

Imagine we started having food protests. Everything goes fine for a couple of days and then who shows up to take advantage of the situation and start looting and killing?

Posted by: dagny at February 02, 2011 04:20 PM (ZuJDg)

Who would show up to start looting and killing? People who don't know about the high rate of US gun ownership and the determination of the average (conservative) American to fiercely defend their family and property.

I'm not going to be in Canada or the United States when the collapse comes, but I was talking with my brother the other day before the storm. I told him now would be a good time to get a large shed for the backyard and start stocking it with food, water, etc. Not just for when the deep, vigorous boning of America really begins but also for when Canada gets hit with the fallout. And I told him it would be a smart idea to start jumping through whatever hoops he has to jump through to legally own firearms for hunting, just for protection.

He commented the wife doesn't like the idea of guns. But she's not going to be the one potentially facing down those less well prepared. His area's becoming a Muslim craphole with plenty of Somali's. I'd like him to be able to be able to defend his family if a pack of them should come calling.

60

The reports are that they are being bussed in and let through the security cordon (where as pro-reformers are being stopped).

Who is the security cordon? The military?  So the military is siding on the side of the govt?

61 We could use that jihad stand-up comic guy about now.

62 Forget about me already????

Posted by: Mayan Calendar at February 02, 2011 04:31 PM (rw9qQ)

Bitch, please.

63 Yeah, so call me confused. Compromise means both side give something. The Muslim Brotherhood and El Baradei gave nothing. What is Mubarak and his supporters supposed to do, take it up the squeakhole while the peasants loot the palace? Posted by: Marcus at February 02, 2011 04:33 PM (CHrmZ) well said

64

Posted by: Tarbash The Egyptian Magician at February 02, 2011 04:32 PM (QtEH+)

I been waiting to see that one, jerky!

65 #55

POISON EYE!!!

66

Sully the pilot actually did engineer a soft landing into the (Hudson?) river.

Prez "Big Things" landing will more resemble that ValuJet auguring  nose first in the Florida everglades.

67

If this goes down ugly... I offer the scenario:

- Jordan falls
- Yemen falls

Saudi's are shitting their pants.  Israel is at status: Oh Fuck.  Lock and load

 

FIFY

68 Forget about me already????

Posted by: Mayan Calendar at February 02, 2011 04:31 PM

Bitch, please.

Book of Revelation at February 02, 2011 04:34 PM


I believe I have jurisdiction here...... both of you STAND DOWN.

69 Come what may -- and it'll likely get quite bad before (or if) if gets better -- never let anyone forget that Preznint Splutnik has taken credit for this and he owns the outcome, for good or for ill.

No glad-handing, "Cairo Speech" wave offs are permitted, now.

70

What's Obama going to do?

I'll go with "what is: frak it up even more for a thousand"

71 Get those people some Teamocil - Stat!

72 Prez "Big Things" landing will more resemble that ValuJet auguring  nose first in the Florida everglades.

Or the Egypt Air FO who plowed Flight 990 into the ocean.

73 The whole mess is instigated by another "good friend of America", Qatar and it's AlJazeera. They are run by a former Hamas commander and set forth, it seems, to deminish all American influence in the region by the means of chaos. I'm happy though.

Chaos means plenty of dead Arabs, and inside warring instead of external terrorism.

74 The whole thing is a sharade. We will know they are serious when they start doning vests.

75 What's Obama going to do? Give out t-shirts.

76

What's Obama going to do?

Vote present?

Offer then health care?

Blame Bush?

Slupree metaphore?

Those are the only precedents.

77

What's Obama going to do?

 

PRESENT111111!!!1111

 

 

78

And how do you do that?

The military is popular with the protesters, and from what I've read they weren't happy with the prospect of Gamal and his pro-market reforms.  Right now, the military controls a pretty big segment of the economy. 

We pressure Mubarak to leave- maybe for "health reasons", and encourage the military to take the reigns, with the expectation that they keep the MB from taking over.  The US has strong ties to their military, and they're popular with the people calling for Mubarak to be ousted.

Obviously, we don't have complete control of what happens, and can neither force Mubarak to step down or keep him in power.  Hell, most thought he'd be dead right now, as he's 82 years old and has health problems.  However, I'd have to imagine that our pull with the military could help shape what happens.

If we told the military that they "convince" Mubarak to leave if they want to continue getting nice toys in the form of aid, they'd have to be at least tempted to do so.

79 A reporter on Al Jazeera just said a top US General has been flown to Egypt to talk to Mubarack.  Was this known before and I just heard it or is it new?

80 Posted by: Dr. Tobias Funke at February 02, 2011 04:38 PM

It's good to listen to the advice of an analrapist, I always say.

81 lots of gunfire live on Cairo streets near Tahrir Square plus hot Mideast info babes blaming the USA sorta

82 I hate to seem to disagree with DrewM, who I think has more on the ball than most.  However, choosing a "side" in Egypt is a fruitless exercise at this point.

Frankly I was surprised that Mubarak took so long to implement the Tiananmen Square solution employed by China. I don't like it one bit, but Machiavelli knew his business.

You can't have a peaceful transition in a lawless environment. Does that imply support for Mubarak? Hell, no. But the peace-loving, peaceful, pro-democratic protestors have been shunted aside by the usual "never waste a crisi" thugs, and unless some order is attained, Egypt goes fourth world.

83

Watching events in Cairo/

"Please allow me to introduce myself

I'm a man of wealth and taste.

Been around for  long long years

Stole many a man's soul from Grace."

84 "the EPA should step down, too." But then who will contain the boob juice spills?

85 Mubarak said "yeah, you and whose army Mr. no-balls?"

Mubarak needs to hire that ghurka with the knife.  That should take care of things in a jiffy. 

86

It's a conincidence that all this violence happened after Obama talked to Murbarack.

Mission Accomplished Barack Obama.

We need to zoomifye the media coverage.

87 How hard is it for the WH to say " We think Mubarky should step down with a temporary transition to the military with a set date for free elections.  However, we warn the Egyptian people that choosing an islamic republic in those elections will mean you will no longer be considered an ally of the US."

88 From The Onion

89 Posted by: dagny at February 02, 2011 04:34 PM

Egypt is at the point where who supports/goads the rioters is irrelevant. The destruction they're causing can only make things worse for everyone. Once the rioting stops -- if! -- blame can be sorted out.

It's much more difficult to gets things going again when all you have to work with is rubble, ashes and corpses.

Oh, and Fucks News has Cavuto interviewing that great internationalist, diplomat supreme and expert on everything Rupe Murdoch on the ME crisis. Hard to give credence to a publisher of tabloid newspapers, even if his underlings have developed some kind of world-changing interwebz news source....

90 0 should have kept his mouth shut. I saw a poll that the vast majority of Egyptians are not clamoring for Mubarek immediately stepping down and opening a void in leadership. 

91 Frankly I was surprised that Mubarak took so long to implement the Tiananmen Square solution Have you ever tried aiming a camel?

92

Slupree metaphore?

 

Uh, so um like the chariot is in the ditch.  The ditch that didn't exist until um Moses parted the red sea.  And the Republicans, they are just standing off to the side, criticizing the Egyptians while me and my boyz, The Muslim Brotherhood bros are trying to push that chariot which ahh... had a wheel fall off from when George Bush was driving it...

93 If we told the military that they "convince" Mubarak to leave if they want to continue getting nice toys in the form of aid, they'd have to be at least tempted to do so.

I can't see where we aren't going to deal with whoever comes out on top so, I'd say the military can wait us out as much as they want.

94

They're running down protestors with a tank! Wait, it's a bicycle...

It's a civil war! Oh, looks like everybody's going home...

Posted by: Fox News Idiots at February 02, 2011 04:33 PM (DLxD/)

 

This is when we really need Baghdad Bob for coherent media coverage.

95
Forget about me already????

Posted by: Mayan Calendar at February 02, 2011 04:31 PM

Bitch, please.

Book of Revelation at February 02, 2011 04:34 PM


I believe I have jurisdiction here...... both of you STAND DOWN.

Posted by: The 13th Imam at February 02, 2011 04:37 PM (rw9qQ)

UNNNNNGGHHHH.....

NNNNNGGGGGHHHH.....

MMMMMMUUUUUGGGGHHHH!!!!

96 I hit that 's' key. Just not hard enough.

97 "Last night, one demonstrator told two friends of mine in downtown Cairo's Tahrir Square that the next step will to to knock on the doors of suburban villas and ask the owners: Where did you get the money to afford these?.....

There is another force in the streets of Cairo, besides the demonstrators.  Equal,if not in numbers then certainly in influence, are the thousands of young men standing all night in front of their houses and stores to protect them from looting....

But regardless of my own opinion, what is clear is that Egypt lacks the sort of political culture that can sustain a liberal democratic regime.  The superficiality of the opposition's demands is matched only by the absurdity of the regime's discourse.  Without knowledge of the likes of Locke, Burke, Hamilton and Jefferson, my country is doomed to either unbridled radicalism or continued repression."

- Amr Bargisi, Sr partners with Egptian Union of Liberal Youth, dictated to WSJ by telephone.

98 Hey, it's Wednesday and it's almost 5:00!  You know what that means!  Waygu and Molotov Cocktail Hour at the White House!

99 Armanpour says, "Wait, I hate America too."

100

B'Gal and I were discussing the irony of mankind's fall starting in the area of its' cradle the other day.

Where is Mount Megiddo again?

101

Carter redux.

102 But then who will contain the boob juice spills?

A rough duty, but I gladly...wait, you mean bovine...eh, nevermind.

103 Let's not get ahead of ourselves, I haven't seen one person walk like an egyptian yet. This whole thing could be staged kinda like Hollywood tried with those bogus moon landings.
Remember NASA and the cryptic "reach out to muslims" meme. Obowbow might just be fitting them for their own reality TV series.
Ya have to admit no one has done the camel thing before this.

104 Without knowledge of the likes of Locke, Burke, Hamilton and Jefferson, my country is doomed to either unbridled radicalism or continued repression. I'm betting on and.

105 I'm so glad all of you could make it today!  Today's cocktail special is Dirty Molotovs, shaken not stirred and our artist/entertainer for the evening is The Clash.  We're going to be rocking this Casbah!

106

Those are the only precedents.

Hey what about me?!

107 It 's not a revolution when you are fighting each other.

108 If Jordan falls, we should offer immediate sanctuary to their royal family.  In fact, I personally offer a bed to HRH Princess Iman bint al-Hussein...

109

The reports are that they are being bussed in and let through the security cordon (where as pro-reformers are being stopped).

Also interesting...the internet was turned back on just in time to cover their arrival.

They may not be issuing a press release but the evidence seems pretty good it's an organized effort that is at least being tacitly supported by government.

Probably; more wondering whether they're being supported by the government (and why wouldn't the government back them) or acting and organized at the direct behest of the government.

 

110 Just another day in the projects. Fo snizzle. When the army steps on things I will pay attention. Until then, its circus time in Cairo.

111

0 should have kept his mouth shut. I saw a poll that the vast majority of Egyptians are not clamoring for Mubarek immediately stepping down and opening a void in leadership

 

Well, he already claimed credit for the changes going on over there yesterday, and the media was only happy to give him laurels about that too.  He owns this thing now. 

112 We think we just heard a decision from the White House. Let's listen in...

Man Holding Phone, Oval Office: Soo, uhh, that means, you should bring it right away. And a towel.

Sec Def, Other End Of Line: But sir, what if the chicken is unavailable?

113 "However, we warn the Egyptian people that choosing an islamic republic in those elections will mean you will no longer be considered an ally of the US."" You bigoted, Islamaphobic bastard!

114 Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 04:39 PM (SY2Kh) Mubarak is the Military. Sadat was the Military. His new Prime Minister is the Military. His Vice-President is the Military. So Not sure which Military you are talking about? And if Mubaral Leaves, you think the "opposition" will be OK with this Vice-President taking over in an interim Gov? You got to be kidding.

115 Carter redux.

In all honesty I'm not sure what any president could (or should) do in this situation, except get all the Americans out of the country.

116 I think the MB was caught off-guard by the spill over from Tunisia and didn't have a follow-up plan ready for a wider revolution - this ends with Omar as they new strongman.  El baradai needs to get out now (or never).

117 Forget about me already????

Posted by: Mayan Calendar at February 02, 2011 04:31 PM

Bitch, please.

Book of Revelation at February 02, 2011 04:34 PM


I believe I have jurisdiction here...... both of you STAND DOWN.

Posted by: The 13th Imam at February 02, 2011 04:37 PM (rw9qQ)

UNNNNNGGHHHH.....

NNNNNGGGGGHHHH.....

MMMMMMUUUUUGGGGHHHH!!!!

Posted by: The Zombie Apocalypse at February 02, 2011 04:43 PM (TAjuH)

None of you will escape me. I am coming.

118 That's fine and all, but what does Meghan McCain have to say about this?

119

Carter redux.

You rang?

120 Posted by: TOTUS at February 02, 2011 04:42 PM

Being told by Osama Obama that you can't make a camel go in "R" in 5...4...3...2....

121

You know its gonna be,

Alright.

You know its gonna be,

Alright.You know its gonna be,

Alright.

122 In all honesty I'm not sure what any president could (or should) do in this situation, except get all the Americans out of the country.

Shadow puppets?

123 In all honesty I'm not sure what any president could (or should) do in this situation, except get all the Americans out of the country. Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 02, 2011 04:49 PM (oNQkO) Keep his rat ass trap shut in public instead of backing the protesters like he has done and throwing Mubarak under the bus in public.

124 Forget about me already????
Posted by: Mayan Calendar

Why you? Because you morons didn't figure out an accurate calendar before you disappeared of the face of the Earth?

125 Ron Paul!

126 <i> Without knowledge of the likes of Locke, Burke, Hamilton and Jefferson, my country is doomed to either unbridled radicalism or continued repression." </i> I don't think the problem is a lack of classic Liberal, but a surfeit of Islamists.

127 He'll need his best cardigan for this crisis. The Tacticardigan©.

128 Matt Damon!

129

I can't see where we aren't going to deal with whoever comes out on top so, I'd say the military can wait us out as much as they want.

If somehow the MB hardcore Islamist types took power, we wouldn't be dealing with them the same way- almost certainly we'd cut off aid if we thought that a new government started clamoring for war against Israel.

I doubt the military wants to see that happen- either the loss of aid or the prospect of going to war.

130 By the way: I'm astonished that Fucks News can mic KT McFarland well enough to transmit what she's saying, given how far her head is jammed up her ass....

131

I posted this on another thread, but it's relevant here.   Everything Obama gets near turns to shit.

The Egyptian foreign ministry appears to be rejecting President Obama’s call for an immediate transition from the government of President Hosni Mubarak — and says that such calls are inciting violence.

“What foreign parties are saying about ‘a period of transition beginning immediately’ in Egypt is rejected,” said foreign ministry spokesman Hossam Zaki, adding that such calls “inflame the internal situation in Egypt.”

On Tuesday night, Obama said: “What is clear — and what I indicated tonight to President Mubarak — is my belief that an orderly transition must be meaningful, it must be peaceful, and it must begin now.”

132 I doubt the military wants to see that happen- either the loss of aid or the prospect of going to war. Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 04:54 PM (SY2Kh) And I bet you would have said the same thing about the Iranian Military in 1979?

133 Oh man. The weasel words from a MBM spokestool on Al-Jism-ra are priceless. Nick Spicer saying out of both sides of his mouth that Barry is tellling Mubarak to get lost so therefore he's on the Side of the People™, but then says Barry didn't go too far out with his statement, he didn't tell Egypt what to do. Fuck yoo-hoo, Nicky.

134 122

You know its gonna be,

Alright.

You know its gonna be,

Alright.You know its gonna be,

Alright.

Posted by: John Lennon at February 02, 2011 04:50 PM (QKKT0)

Yeah, LOL!

135 I think you people are selling Michael Jordan a little too short.

I think he can survive this thing.





What? There's a country named Jordan? So did he get that in trade for his baseball team or something?

136

Keep his rat ass trap shut in public instead of backing the protesters like he has done and throwing Mubarak under the bus in public.

 

True dat!  Violent protesters in Egypt trying to overthrow the gubamint--good.  Peaceful Tea Partiers protesting the over reach of gubamint--bad. 

2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner, Obama speaking out against Mubarek for violations of human rights yet he threw a state dinner for the guy who's imprisoning the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize winner.

Anyone that can defend this hypocritical lying sack of crap, go for it (Kelly, I'm looking at you).

137 127 118 Forget about me already????

Posted by: Mayan Calendar at February 02, 2011 04:31 PM

Bitch, please.

Book of Revelation at February 02, 2011 04:34 PM


I believe I have jurisdiction here...... both of you STAND DOWN.

Posted by: The 13th Imam at February 02, 2011 04:37 PM (rw9qQ)

UNNNNNGGHHHH.....

NNNNNGGGGGHHHH.....

MMMMMMUUUUUGGGGHHHH!!!!

Posted by: The Zombie Apocalypse at February 02, 2011 04:43 PM (TAjuH)

None of you will escape me. I am coming.

Posted by: Rosie O'Donnell's Vagina at February 02, 2011 04:50 PM (kM3n4)

Yeah, about that...

Posted by: A large, unseen asteroid at February 02, 2011 04:53 PM (GBXon)

Y'know, I was gonna say I'm gonna destroy the world first, but screw it.  I'm goin' back to bed.

138 Without knowledge of the likes of Locke, Burke, Hamilton and Jefferson, my country is doomed to either unbridled radicalism or continued repression.

I'm reminded of the stat that more books are translated into Spanish in a year than have been translated into Arabic in the last nine hundred.

139

The answer was he found them "outrageous and deplorable". He left it at that.

 They Bamboozled Us! 

They're Runnin' Amok!

140 He'll need his best cardigan for this crisis. The Tacticardigan©. I'm wearing my kevlar golf cleats. I'm ready for action.

141 That's fine and all, but what does Meghan McCain have to say about this?

Indeed.  We need guidance from the Krugman and the brothers David as well.

142 En fuego!

143 What do the French have to say about all of this?

144

What I need to know?

How this helps Kelly's friends. Poor things were subject to some type of cancer cluster or something.

145 n all honesty I'm not sure what any president could (or should) do in this situation, except get all the Americans out of the country. Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at February 02, 2011 04:49 PM (oNQkO) -------------------- Well he should be keeping his mouth shut. He wants to be on tv every day it seems.

146 145 What do the French have to say about all of this?

Posted by: Soona at February 02, 2011 04:57 PM (jHv0E)

They surrendered on Monday night.

147 Why did Sarah Palin put targets on the oppressed Egyptian masses? You just know she did.

148

: Robert Gibbs gave his daily briefing today and it was a disaster. He was equiviacal and vasilating throughout

Hey, If the Preznit can phone it in...why can't I?

 

149 Kelly's friends are actually a cancer cluster within a leper colony next to a Waffle House and across the street from a Radium Dial factory built on an Apache Burial Ground.

150 How do we get rid of this abortion called Obama ? Thanx to the 52% that had their head up their ass in 2008 and electing this piece of garbage. Anything, just to get rid of this disaster. I would even agree to have oral sex with Chewbaca just to get rid of of the purple lipped commie boy.

151 I'll bring the Gargle Blasters!

152

Mubarak is the Military. Sadat was the Military. His new Prime Minister is the Military. His Vice-President is the Military.

So Not sure which Military you are talking about? And if Mubaral Leaves, you think the "opposition" will be OK with this Vice-President taking over in an interim Gov? You got to be kidding.

The opposition isn't against the military, it's against Mubarak, despite his strong ties to and support from the military.  If he steps down and the military takes control, little would change (aside from reversing the recent pro-market reforms the military isn't happy about), and it would likely appease the demonstrators.

Whether it's the new VP or not that plays the role of President isn't terribly relevant as far as we're concerned, as long as it's someone willing to play ball with their military and by extension, the US.

153 The sad part is that the only way Mubarek can stay in power with the support of his people is to declare war on Israel.  Obama's support of Iranian leadership and now his support moving towards the Muslim brotherhood in the form of elbaradei is really scary.

154 There's no need for any foreign leader, especially Obama, to speak publicly.

155 The Average Guys are now hunkering down and trying to ride out the storm, appalled at what has been let loose.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 02, 2011 04:19 PM (dBG0+)

Yes, escalating riots... which started over concerns about food.

Various factions starting to try for control.

Riots in the streets as the mob turns on itself.

The Elite fleeing to the coutnryside, as the Peasents enter the city..

The Army, standing by and watching as things spin out of control..

Mon Dieu! This seems so familiar...

156 Kelly's friends are actually a cancer cluster within a leper colony next to a Waffle House and across the street from a Radium Dial factory built on an Apache Burial Ground. There's no time to buy like now, before you're priced out of this attractive neighborhood!

157 157 There's no need for any foreign leader, especially Obama, to speak publicly.

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 05:00 PM (AXHCj)

"When all you have is a hammer..."

158 Drop some Hustler magazines, booze, some weed and some Del Taco, and a shitload of Xboxes into that square.

Everyone will be partying in no time.

159

The answer was he found them "outrageous and deplorable". He left it at that.

 They Bamboozled Us! 

They're Runnin' Amok!

Posted by: Barak Obama - Call Sign : Peace Prize at February 02, 2011 04:57 PM (3lx5O)

Don't forget the Okey-Doke.  Or the hi-side flim flam.  Or the down-low alley oop.  razz-ma-tazz, even!

160 If he steps down and the military takes control, little would change (aside from reversing the recent pro-market reforms the military isn't happy about), and it would likely appease the demonstrators.

Why is the military unhappy about pro-market reforms?

161 The answer was he found them "outrageous and deplorable". He left it at that. He was going to add "Fires set by protestors adds to Egypt's carbon footprint," but then reconsidered.

162 Looks like Meggie has taught dad "tweet hip". How much space does it save to spell out 'for' and 'to'? I'm not a "tweeter", so I guess that's why I don't get it.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at February 02, 2011 04:59 PM (vbh31)

Yeah, nothing like seeing important commentary on world events crammed into LOL-speak. Stupid medium for anything important.

Hell, it'd be smarter to use the HQ here for serious, breaking commentary on serious, important stuff. That way we can respond in an appropriately serious, important manner, and save the non-Morons a lot of time.

163 Whether it's the new VP or not that plays the role of President isn't terribly relevant as far as we're concerned, as long as it's someone willing to play ball with their military and by extension, the US. Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 05:00 PM (SY2Kh) Your either missing the point or don't get it. Mubarak and his VP are more or less one and the same. A interim Gov lead by his VP would probably NOT be satisfactory to the "demonstrators". Your arguing for a non-starter.

164

As I said when this started... best thing for America to do is SHUT THE HELL UP!

Anything we say just plays into the Middle Easts meme that we are trying to control them.... and WE ARE.

Its not GitMo that is creating future terrorists... its Obama'a mouth right now, as he PROOVES they were correct, and we ARE meddling in their internal Politics...

 

Oh, and as to the 3 Billion a year in Aid?  When will folks learn that you do not BUY friends, you only RENT them.

165

Guard the Museums! Why?

King Tut. That's why.

166 Hello, Hosni? I'm tanned, rested and ready.

167

And I bet you would have said the same thing about the Iranian Military in 1979?

Yes, because it was true.  The Iranian military was pro-Shah, pro-US and anti-Ayatolla.  They were ready to to whatever necessary (including killing lots of people) to squash the Islamic revolution, but not without US backing.  Carter- like his modern day doppelganger- instead voted "present", and their military basically just gave up.

168 Keeping his mouth shut would be ideal, considering who he is, but there would be nothing wrong with a President making a broad statement of his, and our, principles regarding Democracy, Egypt, Freedom of Assembly, etrc. Of course, neither Obama nor any of his staff have any clue how to write such a speech, so it ain't gonna happen.  One can only "no comment" on the biggest story in the world for so long.

169 Obama wouldn't say boo about the Iranian protests, now he's all in favor of the Egyptian ones...that tells me there's a theocracy in the offing and Obama wants to equal Jimmy Carter's record.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at February 02, 2011 04:22 PM (081kp)

I'd bet my eye teeth Barry's anarchist/commie buddies are helping stir things up.  Like dagny said, all the signs are in English and from print shops!  On Monday, Rush critiqued the protest, pointing out there were about 250,000 (according to local media reports) BUT Egypt has a population of 80 million -- which put the civil unrest at .03%. 

Other sites pointed out the absence of wimmins in the Monday protest.  Shazam! Every day thereafter there have been more, and have been prominently placed in the crowd -- raised on men's shoulders in one pix.

Check a map of that region -- the dominoes are falling for Islamic rule.

Beck said he heard a "Day of Rage" planned and wondered where he had heard it before.  It was from none other than Billy Ayres of Weather Underground fame, circa 1968.

170

None of you will escape me. I am coming.

Posted by: Rosie O'Donnell's Vagina at February 02, 2011 04:50

The power of Christ compels you! The power of Christ compels you!

171 170

And I bet you would have said the same thing about the Iranian Military in 1979?

Yes, because it was true.  The Iranian military was pro-Shah, pro-US and anti-Ayatolla.  They were ready to to whatever necessary (including killing lots of people) to squash the Islamic revolution, but not without US backing.  Carter- like his modern day doppelganger- instead voted "present", and their military basically just gave up.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 05:06 PM (SY2Kh)

Yup.  If I'm an ally of the US over the last 70 years, I hunker the fuck down every time a democrat gets elected.  (see:  Cuba, Iran)

172

The sad part is that the only way Mubarek can stay in power with the support of his people is to declare war on Israel.  Obama's support of Iranian leadership and now his support moving towards the Muslim brotherhood in the form of elbaradei is really scary.

 

Makes me wish we knew where Bin Laden is right now.

173 And I bet you would have said the same thing about the Iranian Military in 1979? Yes, because it was true. The Iranian military was pro-Shah, pro-US and anti-Ayatolla. They were ready to to whatever necessary (including killing lots of people) to squash the Islamic revolution, but not without US backing. Carter- like his modern day doppelganger- instead voted "present", and their military basically just gave up. Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 05:06 PM (SY2Kh) And the Egyptian Military will not just give up? You draw that conclusion why? The Iranian Military saw the islamic writing on the wall and chose accordingly. I am sure the Egyptian Military can read also, and if you force Mubarak out be careful what you wish for

174 Are we due another Sparky finger moment here? Usually when someone pisses him off, he flips them the bird. It could work in this situation. Communities understand such tribal signals.

175

Obama's support of Iranian leadership and now his support moving towards the Muslim brotherhood in the form of elbaradei is really scary.

Remember, The Vapid One™, in one of Billy Ayers' books, said he'd back Islam when the excrement collided with the air-moving device.

At least he's consistent.

With them.

176 Might wanna bust out those 5 gal sweedish military surplus gas cans and fill those fuckers up before Monday.

177

If this goes the way of Iran '79, be prepared for tons of refugees. Those first protesters, the real ones, will soon learn the meaning of "be careful what you wish for".
Posted by: t-bird at February 02, 2011 04:28 PM (FcR7P)

Amen

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 02, 2011 04:29 PM (/Ibu

Not happening.

When I was an undergrad we had tons of Iranian foreign study students. Wearing the fez, openly smoking something that didn't smell like tobacco out of big, ornate gold pipes.

They disappeared during the spring break in 1979.

Simply.Fucking.Evaporated.

178 I know. Some music will cheer everybody up!

179 "A rough duty, but I gladly...wait, you mean bovine...eh, nevermind." Listen, AofS H worst commentator, I never said anything about Rosie O'Donnell.

180

170

It appears to be the opposite today. The military was undecided on using force until Obama ran his mouth and tried to take 5 positions at once - today, they said, "Screw it," and let the pro-Mubarak thugs run wild.

171 there would be nothing wrong with a President making a broad statement of his, and our, principles regarding Democracy, Egypt, Freedom of Assembly, etrc

Once, maybe. Obama's come out and spoken every day since this crisis has started, usually after Mubarak spoke and usually to undermine him.

181

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 02, 2011 05:07 PM (hUf/c)

No, you simply say "This is a matter for the Egyptian people to decide, an internal matter, and just as we get angry when others try to tell us how we should run our Government... we must give that same Freedom to the Egyptian people.

Sure, we'd like to see Democracy in Egypt, but it is up to them".

Then, shut up.

182

The ability of the US to influence, let alone control events like these are far more limited than we'd like to admit.

 

That's totally our fault. There was a day and age when we would have had CIA agents on the ground actively seeking, not just to influence the outcome of a situation like this - but to DETERMINE and ENSURE the outcome was favorable to US interests.

We don't do that anymore it seems - we like to be "nice" now.

Which is completely naive. You can BET YOUR ASS that Al Qaida has it's men on the ground working to influence the outcome. You can bet the Russians do - and even the Chinese.

While we sit here debating which "words" we're going to read from a teleprompter - as if it would matter.

Men of ACTION determine outcomes - not men of words.

That means - someone else will determine the outcome in Egypt - and the result will be not be favorable to the US nor the world at large.

183

Your either missing the point or don't get it. Mubarak and his VP are more or less one and the same. A interim Gov lead by his VP would probably NOT be satisfactory to the "demonstrators". Your arguing for a non-starter.

Again- it doesn't have to be his VP.  Someone like him who gets appointed by (or is a member of) the military would be perfectly fine as far as the US is concerned.  Someone with strong military ties- but not appointed by Mubarak- would likely gain a lot more acceptance.

Besides, it's not clear that an interim / transitional government shared between the military and the Mubarak-appointed VP wouldn't be enough of a compromise.  If Mubarak steps down, it represents a big victory for the protesters, even if nothing changes much.  Not all of them would be satisifed, but it's not necessary to appease every single person.

184

Simply.Fucking.Evaporated.

Do you think they were consumed by the overwhelming desire for Democracy? 

I've heard of 'Spontaneous Liberation Disintegration', but I have never witnessed it, before.

185 There's no time to buy like now, before you're priced out of this attractive neighborhood!
Need a loan?

186

Gibbs was asked what the President thought of the images of the clashes this morning. The answer was he found them "outrageous and deplorable".

He may as well have been referring to the latest crop of contestants on American Idol. That is how vague this administration is, where every press conference can be referring to everything and nothing at all.

187 Code Pinko's in the house.

Now all they need is Bert.

188

State Dept: Mubarak has "narrow amount of time" to reform.

So what if he doesn't. Why do we say stuff like this to the world? The libs apologize for our "arrogance"?

Is there a time limit because Kelly's friends are dying?

189 Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 05:13 PM (SY2Kh) I doubt it would be ok with them unless some wolf in sheeps clothing like El-Baradei is included. And is doens't bother you that after 30 years of basically supporting the USA we just discard him like a pair of dirty socks? And the message that sends to our other "Allies" in World?

190 I think Hollowpoint has the right call here. Sure, we can't know in advance, but one thing about military in these hellholes: they draw a paycheck. They want it to keep coming. So order is good for them, and chaos not so much.

Sorry, Kratos.

191

Yup.  If I'm an ally of the US over the last 70 years, I hunker the fuck down every time a democrat gets elected.  (see:  Cuba, Iran, Vietnam, Cambodia, Taiwan, El Salvador, Columbia, Britain, Germany, Ukraine, Poland {I'm sure there's more})

Posted by: tangonine at February 02, 2011 05:08 PM (x3YFz)

192 I think Hollowpoint has the right call here. Sure, we can't know in advance, but one thing about military in these hellholes: they draw a paycheck. They want it to keep coming. So order is good for them, and chaos not so much. Sorry, Kratos. Posted by: K~Bob at February 02, 2011 05:16 PM (tmvmJ) Didin't work so well in Iran.

193 Who is this guy on Beck, he's good.  He's getting a lot of stuff out.

194 Now all they need is Bert.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at February 02, 2011 05:15 PM (TUpD9)

Shhhhhh!!! Burts an undercover CIA plant....

195

Men of ACTION determine outcomes - not men of words.

I'm not entirely sure that is always going to be the outcome...

196

185 You can bet the Russians do - and even the Chinese.

I doubt it. I think both are doing exactly what we're doing now - trying to work behind the scenes with those currently in power to ensure a favorible outcome.

This revolution is about the people of Egypt - not us, not the Russians, and not the Chinese.

al Qaeda - maybe.

197 a top US General Anybody seen Petraeus lately? (And drive safe, midwest and east coast morons/moronettes.)

198 I want everyone to know how much we worry about our embassy employees.

What some Billy Beer

199

Yeah, I hear the "say nothing" people, and there's no "tear down this wall" opportunity here, but I'm still wondering what a Reagan would come up with.

As to the actual crisis, it's getting real bad now, isn't it? Every website/news channel/Twitter feed I just skimmed seems ready to start compiling body counts. Apparently things are coming to a head. God knows what tomorrow will look like.

200 Makes me wish we knew where Bin Laden is right now. Stupid wingnut. He's building schools and roads, like he's been doing for decades. More than George Bush did.

201

"It is said that the poeple are revolting."

"You said it!  They stink on ice!"

202 184

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 02, 2011 05:07 PM (hUf/c)

No, you simply say "This is a matter for the Egyptian people to decide, an internal matter, and just as we get angry when others try to tell us how we should run our Government... we must give that same Freedom to the Egyptian people.

Sure, we'd like to see Democracy in Egypt, but it is up to them".

Then, shut up.

I might add that any aggression in the neighborhood will not be stood for.

203

"There was a day and age when we would have had CIA agents on the ground actively seeking, not just to influence the outcome of a situation like this - but to DETERMINE and ENSURE the outcome was favorable to US interests.

We don't do that anymore it seems - we like to be "nice" now.

Which is completely naive. You can BET YOUR ASS that Al Qaida has it's men on the ground working to influence the outcome. You can bet the Russians do - and even the Chinese."

Ron Paul to the white courtesy phone. Ron Paul, please pick up the nearest courtesy phone.

204

Sure, we'd like to see Democracy in Egypt, but it is up to them".

Then, shut up.

Posted by: Romeo13 at February 02, 2011 05:11 PM

^^This^^

But it must be added that we also have the right to yank our support (especially the multiple-billion-dollar annual handouts) when, as is likely, the Muzzie Bros take over. Even if that's what Osama Obama wants.

We also have the right to come to the aid of real allies in the region (just for Kelly: that would be Israel) if the new Egyptian leadership goes after them. Even if the Muzzie Bros are then doing what Osama Obama wants.

205 Didin't work so well in Iran.

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 02, 2011 05:17 PM (/Ibu

Wasn't tried in Iran. Jimmy Carter, remember?

206 Apparently things are coming to a head.
These things usually do, mon ami.

207 worth a listen: http://podcast.ricochet.com/ricochet-podcast-middle-east-2.mp3

208 This will end badly.

209 Didin't work so well in Iran. Posted by: nevergiveup at February 02, 2011 05:17 PM (/Ibu Wasn't tried in Iran. Jimmy Carter, remember? Posted by: Libertarians And Foreign at February 02, 2011 05:22 PM (tmvmJ) The Iranian Military did NOT come to the rescue of Iranian Democracy or US Interests and we equipped and trained them every bit as well if not better than the Egyptians.

210

Posted by: dagny

 

That's the flip-side of the coin, isn't it? Not doing/saying anything is the same as doing/saying something, from Israel's point of view. But this is a particularly sticky wicket and I don't think Israel can fault us for waiting until the gunfire stops and the fires are out before we stake out our position.

211 I might add that any aggression in the neighborhood will not be stood for.


Huh? No, what the fuck are you... I'm not... We're talking about unchecked aggression here, dude.

212 Whats Obama to do?

Simple.

Tee up.  Fore!!!

213 Iran TV: 1000 killed or injured in Tahrir Square, by Israeli Jew Commandos

What? That's what Iran is saying? Nice. You would think he worked for Newsweek or something.

214 How are we doing so far?

215 You thought I'd be outa here already. Fuck you !

216 But out Christine.  It's all about my bravery tonite. Bitch.

217 Beck has John Hofmeister on, the former CEO of one of the oil companies.   He's making a lot of sense and so is Steve, who seems to be one of the few journalists willing to discuss the subject of oil prices.

218 The Iranian Military did NOT come to the rescue of Iranian Democracy or US Interests and we equipped and trained them every bit as well if not better than the Egyptians.

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 02, 2011 05:24 PM (/Ibu

It ain't about training and equipment. It's about the use (as in Reagan's case) or non-use (as in Carter's case) of power.

219 And due to the rising unrest in Egypt, we are forced to continue our slowdown of approval of oil drilling permits, as we must study this potential disruption of oil supplies worldwide.  The study, expected to last 9 months...

220

202 I'm still wondering what a Reagan would come up with.

Reagan probably wouldn't have said anything, since Mubarak is an ally. Reagan went after the Wall because the East German government was an enemy to us.

Remember, Reagan's guys were in this position with Marcos in the Philippines

221 Good thing the "price of heating homes going up" is happening during Global Warming. Thanks, Barak!

222 I am the walrus.

223 Walter, he peed on my rug!

224 It ain't about training and equipment. It's about the use (as in Reagan's case) or non-use (as in Carter's case) of power. Posted by: K~Bob always forgets to take off his sok at February 02, 2011 05:28 PM (tmvmJ) I have no idea what your talking about. My point was the Iranian Military which was every bit as pro-usa as the Egyptian Military is "presumed" to be today did nothing to support or put in power a more pro-western gov after the fall of the Shah and there is no reason to think the Egyptian Military would be any different.

225

202 I'm still wondering what a Reagan would come up with.

Reagan probably wouldn't have said anything, since Mubarak is an ally. Reagan went after the Wall because the East German government was an enemy to us.

Remember, Reagan's guys were in this position with Marcos in the Philippines

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 05:28 PM (AXHCj)

Better example may be Lebanon...

226 Obviously this has them flumoxed.  Hillary is calling an assembly of every ambassador, every one and I've read that timmmay is having a meeting of some sort.  The people they are calling in are intelligent, thoughtful people, regardless of their political beliefs so they must want in put on this situation in the middle east, right?

Makes you wonder why that mormon guy who was ambassador to China quit just before the big, head honcho meeting.  You would think he would have gone to the meeting and then quit.

227 If somehow the MB hardcore Islamist types took power, we wouldn't be dealing with them the same way

Well yes, but I'm assuming the Army will come out on top.  If they disregard Barry entreaty and let Mubarak stay until October, we will still pay the dane geld, so it's really a matter of their own internal politics and Barry should probably STFU.

228 So Mubarak told The One to Get Lost? Shocker that. After all: who in the international community hasn't treated Obama like a common bum?

229

Remember, Reagan's guys were in this position with Marcos in the Philippines

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 05:28 PM (AXHCj)

 

I recall Reagan answering a question about that:  "Well, Amelda.  That's a lot of fucking shoes". 

230 Why do we say stuff like this to the world?

That's State talking. State's not "we." They have their own plans. And for reasons I don't quite get, State wants—and has worked for decades to create—a region-wide, brutally insane Muslim bloc in the ME.

Ask Condi, I guess.

231 Curious, you just called Turbo Tim and Hillary intelligent and thoughtful.

232

And the Egyptian Military will not just give up? You draw that conclusion why? The Iranian Military saw the islamic writing on the wall and chose accordingly. I am sure the Egyptian Military can read also, and if you force Mubarak out be careful what you wish for

Egypt is not Iran.  The Iranian military wasn't prepared to take strong action (i.e. be seen killing a lot of protesters) without US backing, which Carter refused to provide.  Furthermore, the Egyptian military has popular support and controls a great deal of the economy.

Unlike in 1979 Iran, it's not necessary for the Egyptian military to go on a killing spree to put down the protests.  A change in leadership, under military control, would almost certainly do it.

Mubarak is on his way out, no matter what; it makes no sense to back him anymore.  If he gets forcibly ousted or driven out by the protest movement (possibly the MB), that leaves a power vacuum.  If it's a more orderly takeover by the military, that prevents such a vacuum, appeases the protesters, and still allows the US to maintain close ties and influence.

233 Is the nuclear weapons inspector guy who is also a player supporting hosni's stay until September?

234 Why is the military unhappy about pro-market reforms?

Tami, that article over at American Thinker by  Sam Tardos (sp?) indicated that in the '90's, the NDP party began getting involved in business and making major progress toward capital reforms, people were making money and the economy was booming.... but, traditionally, the military usually were appointed as heads of business.  They are/ were being squeezed out by businessmen with political support. 
They no likey.

235

Remember, Reagan's guys were in this position with Marcos in the Philippines

Posted by: The Q at February 02, 2011 05:28 PM (AXHCj)

Yup, and Marcos was gone within 48 hours of Reagan getting involved.

236

Good points, Q.

In the end Reagan let Marcos move to the United States, of course. Fortunately, not even Obama is stupid enough to try that with Hosni.

237 235 Curious, you just called Turbo Tim and Hillary intelligent and thoughtful.

Posted by: sifty at February 02, 2011 05:34 PM (KyE50)

I think to have made it to where they are they have to be and anyone who would think otherwise would be foolish and underestimate them and that would not be a good thing.

Saying that wasn't an endorsement but just factual.

238 #229  Better example may be Lebanon...

Good point.  Sadly, Hezbollah and Lebanon was one of Reagan's few really big foreign policy mishaps, although in all honesty, he was a bit hamstrung by Congress too.

239 nevergiveup, you don't use power by sending money and equipment. That's just preparing the ground in advance. The use of power involves making the call to actually USE it.

Carter whiffed. Big time. Barak whiffed, big time.

Reagan didn't. Huge difference, and it had nothing to do with who was the better speech-giver in-chief.

I'm not pro-anyone here, but I can clearly see how the Machiavellian application is played, for those who have the minerals to play it.

Mubarak is playing the cards himself, now, since our President has whiffed at the ball.

That's enough metaphors from me.

240 Beck has John Hofmeister on, the former CEO of one of the oil companies.  

Hofmeister have a new book to sell or something?

The guy's a piece of shit top-down totalitarian.

241 I don't know why anyone thinks Obama's fretting over this. It's a win-win situation for him no matter how it plays out.

1.) Mubarak turns loose the Army, there's a bloodbath and oppressive "peace."
-- Obama can say "I tried to calm things!" while Israel and Saudi breathe a sigh of relief and the Europeans give him another Nobel.

2.) Mubarak skips town and the Muslim Brotherhood take over.
-- Again, this is a win for Barry. Moderate refugees come to the US and join the growing Democrat Arab political machine, chaos or war in the Middle East jacks up oil prices so he can raise taxes and nationalize Exxon.

Really, what's the downside for Barry? He knows the media will spin anything bad as the fault of Bush or Evil Jews.

242 Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!

243 Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 05:34 PM (SY2Kh) The Egyptian Military also doesn't have any support from the USA for any strong action? Not that they might or might not care. But you keep talking like the Military, and you can point to no one in the Military who is gonna do this?, can just step in tomorrow and take control without acknowledging that everyone in and around Mubarak who might be in am interim Gov is Military??????

244 Good to know that this is under control.

245 Posted by: Waterhouse at February 02, 2011 05:38 PM (3YYhR)

he didn't sound that way though.  He was just giving facts.

the economy cannot withstand $150 barrel oil

246 Remember that Iran was essentially at war with Iraq during this era. The Iranian military  had its hands full with Sadam Hussain, et al.

247 Egypts fate?  It'll end up being a secular dictatership, a military dictatership, or a muslim dictatership.

248 I'd write something smart and pithy, but it's so fucking cold here in Dallas I can barely type, much less think. Thank God for global warming, or we would be mistaken for the North Freaking Pole!

249 I know you don't like Beck, but he isn't on tonight, he has eric as a sub and eric is spectacular.  Betsy McCoy just said the health care bill, "should be repealed as it shreds your constitution"

This is worth watching tonight.

250 Posted by: K~Bob at February 02, 2011 05:38 PM (tmvmJ) Do you actually read anything I wrote? Your making points I never even hinted at.

251 Remember that Iran was essentially at war with Iraq during this era. The Iranian military had its hands full with Sadam Hussain, et al. Posted by: dagny at February 02, 2011 05:40 PM (ZuJDg) Iran was not yet at war with Iraq when the Shah fell

252 Why did the O Admin out out that Hosni is a Coptic Christian?

253 The Masons.

254

Egypt pays out $1.1 million annually to the Podesta Group, an organization closely tied with the Obama administration, to act as “foreign agents” for Mubarak’s regime.

We've been looking at this wrong. It's Chicago!!

255 251 Egypts fate?  It'll end up being a secular dictatership, a military dictatership, or a muslim dictatership.

Posted by: Soona at February 02, 2011 05:40 PM (jHv0E)

Oh, then we wouldn't see much change, I guess.

Speaking of 'taters (precious), I gotta go make dinner.

256 It is very easy to say Mubarak should step down. He is an obvious bad guy dictator..However, then what? He steps down and an islamic radical backed guy takes over? That is not in the best interests of the United States.

257

Egyptian Army has strong support from the People, NOW...

But if they side with what America wants, against the People, that will change in a hearbeat...

258 Hmm... So Hillary as SecState said the transition of power must happen now? Wait... didn't Barry lecture us prior to 2008 about how we can't go around "imposing freedom" on people? Didn't lefties tell us for ten years that only an arrogant US administration would go around telling other countries how to order their affairs? Just can't figger this out.

259 An iranian style revolution in Egpyt is not in the USA's interest. I hope Obama realizes this. McCain likes being in the show. Always has.

260 Do you actually read anything I wrote? Your making points I never even hinted at.

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 02, 2011 05:41 PM (/Ibu

What, there's some sekrit protocol about limiting my discussion to your points?

I made a separate point, as an aside to what Hollowpoint was writing. You responded to that and here we are. What's the difficulty?

261 Posted by: Soona at February 02, 2011 05:40 PM (jHv0E)

Secular or military dictatorship would be fine. I am much more worried about an Islamic dictatorship that immediately begins to reconstruct the Caliphate.

262 The correct way to handle this (assuming that Mubarak's ouster is the correct decision,  which I am not sure of) would be to talk to him first,  cajole him into resigning and appointing an interim military guy while the stuff of Mubarak's regime is wound down (people resigning,  transfer of power, etc).

Tyhen,  let Mubarak announce he is leaving with these conditions, and then we come out and praise him for his self-sacrifice and patriotism.

Instead,  we have Mr. "Look at me!  I am the smartest president ever!"  out bragging and taking credit for everything and stirring up still more trouble.

He is not incompetent.  Obama is evil.

263 But if they side with what America wants, against the People, that will change in a hearbeat...

I don't have a bead on what the Egyptian people really want.  Other than some measure of prosperity.  The protesters say they want Mubarak gone now but who knows.  And as far as what America wants, so far it's been a contradictory series of statements.

I expect the Egyptian Army has a better feel than we do, so we'll see if they buckle.

264 Posted by: sickinmass at February 02, 2011 05:41 PM (1rflU)

the protesters in the street don't have access to this kind of information, they have sketchy internet where things that the government don't want them to see aren't available to them.

265

The Egyptian Military also doesn't have any support from the USA for any strong action? Not that they might or might not care. But you keep talking like the Military, and you can point to no one in the Military who is gonna do this?, can just step in tomorrow and take control without acknowledging that everyone in and around Mubarak who might be in am interim Gov is Military??????

If you're not going to bother reading what I wrote, don't bother responding.

I'll make it simple for you, since that appears necessary:

In the eyes of the protesters:

Mubarak bad.

Military good.

Person appointed by bad guy to take over is bad because bad guy appointed him.

Good guy appointed by good guys is good because good guys appointed him.

 

266 Ed Anger @180, ever been to 'Irangeles'? They're probably there, driving old Mercedes. (Hm, that doesn't spell very well. It and 'Teherangeles' rhyme with Los Angeles)

267

Posted by: toby928™: Free nickless the still-banned (99.174.64.43) at February 02, 2011 05:49 PM (GTbGH)

 

Watched a bit of video around the net, with Protesters saying Muby is a tool of the West, which is why he must go NOW....  anecdotal, but indicative IMO.

268 Posted by: curious at February 02, 2011 05:41 PM

Yup. Just like Johnson's Baby Shampoo -- "no more tears!"

For one day, at least.

269 t-bird, I bet wherever they are they are talking on a cell phone and wearing lots of cologne.

270 Personally, I wish Mubarak would go The-Corleone-Family-is-moving-to-Vegas and take out all the MB leaders as he leaves the country.

271 @270 About right.

272 Hey, Kratos.  What's your final conclusion about all of this?

273 Watched a bit of video around the net, with Protesters saying Muby is a tool of the West, which is why he must go NOW....  anecdotal, but indicative IMO.

Yeah, but it's still a subset of a subset of a subset, filtered through the MFM.  I'm just professing ignorance here.

274 I think it's tough to say what the Egyptian people want because I've heard several people say that the Egyptian people are home, not demonstrating and the government is offering them money cause they can't go to work.  So then you wonder "well who is that out there protesting then if Egyptians are home worrying that they can't go to work"?

275

Iran and Iraq had been at a standoff for years. They didn't suddenly go to war. In 1975n Iran sent 2 regiments in to KDP controlled areas of Iraq. They weren't exactly feeling cozy when the Shah was overthrown.

276 Posted by: Dan at February 02, 2011 05:44 PM (mXBxH)

The Best Option would be a true Democrat Revolution and the rejection of Political Islam.

Then again, I expect Iranian Revolution Part II where a Dictator is replaced by another Dictator.

277

"What's Obama going to do?"

Large wager on "Dither," please.

278 Switzerland could give America some good advice about how to deal with this if it would consider sticking its nose into our business long enough to do it.

279

Posted by: Hollowpoint at February 02, 2011 05:49 PM (SY2Kh)

Problem is that Mubarak came from the Military, and its always been his power base.

Sooo... unless there is some Charasmatic Military type out there who will become the next secular Strong Man... then IMO the Army will stay Neutral in this, waiting to see who comes out on top.

Think French Revolution, vs. Russian Revolution...

280

261

We've done it before, under Bush in Palestine.

1. Push for free, fair, democratic elections that stress universal human rights.

2. Hamas wins.

3. "Fuck those guys," start civil war between Hamas and Fatah and split Gaza and the West Bank.

Let them have free and fair elections. If the MB wins, then we act

281 In the End there will only be Poontang.

282 Large wager on "Dither," please.

Word.  Dither and declare victory no matter what the outcome.  Dictators Created or Saved.

It's his MO.

283 They weren't exactly feeling cozy when the Shah was overthrown. Posted by: dagny at February 02, 2011 05:55 PM (ZuJDg)

One savings grace about all of this jihad-fever swamp growing in the region--they don't have much love for each other, either. Given their immature mindset about all of this, it could be played against them by clever folks looking to minimize the damage they do on the world stage.

284

Egyptian Army has strong support from the People, NOW...

But if they side with what America wants, against the People, that will change in a hearbeat...

Perhaps, but what America wants is stability and peace, with a friendly government in Egypt.  We don't owe Mubarak shit; as long as his successor fits the bill, we shouldn't care who it is.

Now if we overtly back Mubarak and he increasingly uses the military to squash the protests, the military loses support, and so do we.  If the military facilitates giving what the people want- new leadership- they get respect from the people and the US maintains strong ties. 

285 282

"What's Obama going to do?"

Large wager on "Dither," please.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at February 02, 2011 05:55 PM (xy9wk)

When in fear, and when in doubt, run in circles, scream, and shout...

286 curious,  the answer to your question of who is protesting:

Islamic jihadist types released due to prison breaks

Very poor people who are very hungry due to Amerian dollar falling and grain being used for ethanol

Code Pink and their allies,  including communists

Muslim Brotherhood who sees this as an opportunity to take over

287 Hmmmm. "Tool of the west" vs. what?

288

280

True, Saddam and the Shah didn't get along, but the revolution and Khomeni's rise to power is what made Saddam go all in and cross his army over the border

289

"What's Obama going to do?"

Large wager on "Dither," please.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at February 02, 2011 05:55 PM (xy9wk)

Dithering is for pussies. Kill or be killed.

290 taters call! Drive safe, y'all!

291 the eventual outcome will merely see Egypt remain as a subservient client state of the US military-industrial complex.

You say that like its a bad thing.

292

sickinmass:

Counterpunch cut-and-pastes? Where are those coming from?

293 296

"What's Obama going to do?"

Large wager on "Dither," please.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at February 02, 2011 05:55 PM (xy9wk)

Dithering is for pussies. Kill or be killed.

Posted by: Michael Vick at February 02, 2011 06:01 PM (9NAga)

And after that nice phone call too...

294 how do you know that outsiders haven't poured into Egypt to make sure the muslim brotherhood comes out on top?

295 The Best Option would be a true Democrat Revolution and the rejection of Political Islam.

Then again, I expect Iranian Revolution Part II where a Dictator is replaced by another Dictator.

Posted by: Holger at February 02, 2011 05:55 PM (YxGud)

 

I think they should have a group of intelligent, semi-spiritual individuals draw up a document stating specifically what their government could and could not do, giving them rights that could never be taken away. 

But they'd probably start voting for democrats and end up back where they are now.

296 He's going to write a strongly worded letter.

297 300 how do you know that outsiders haven't poured into Egypt to make sure the muslim brotherhood comes out on top?

Posted by: curious at February 02, 2011 06:02 PM (p302b)

Do we know if the Gaza strip crossings are still closed or not?

298 As Khomeini's movement gained momentum, soldiers began to defect to his side. On February 9 about 10 P.M. a fight broke out between loyal Immortal Guards and the pro-Khomeini rebel Homafaran element of the Iranian Air Force, with Khomeini declaring jihad on loyal soldiers who did not surrender.[117] Revolutionaries and rebel soldiers gained the upper hand and began to take over police stations and military installations, distributing arms to the public. The final collapse of the provisional non-Islamist government came at 2 p.m. February 11 when the Supreme Military Council declared itself "neutral in the current political disputesÂ… in order to prevent further disorder and bloodshed."[118][119] Revolutionaries took over government buildings, TV and Radio stations, and palaces of Pahlavi dynasty.

299 We have to admit, Reagan was fucking terrible with ME policy. Not as bad as the peanut farming imbecile but pretty damn close.

300 >>sickinmass at February 02, 2011 05:41 PM (1rflU) What he said. Anyone who has taken the short drive from Heliopolis to the crushing poverty of the slums of Cairo or ever done business in Egypt knows that this is one of the most corrupt states in the region. There really isn't a middle class as we would know it, there is a rich, privileged class that is thoroughly corrupt and everybody else. The US government is seen as complicit in this because, well largely because we have been over the last number of decades. There weren't any good choices, choose not to support a thug like Mubarak and invite chaos or support Mubarak and reap the whirlwind we are now seeing. This is why you get the seemingly contradictory statements from lots of people not just in Egypt but throughout the middle east, I like Americans, I just hate America. In situations like this as we have seen in Lebanon and other Arab states where oppression rules, groups like the MN, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. thrive by providing services the gov't doesn't. Health clinics, food, protection services, etc. and it buys them some level of goodwill with segments of the society that get nothing from the government. We have a small window to step in and show a better face or be judged by our past.

301 I read somewhere that the wealthy left.  That is sort of a big signal that they don't have faith that everything will turn out all right.

302 Problem is that Mubarak came from the Military, and its always been his power base.

Sooo... unless there is some Charasmatic Military type out there who will become the next secular Strong Man... then IMO the Army will stay Neutral in this, waiting to see who comes out on top.

Think French Revolution, vs. Russian Revolution...

It doesn't seem to matter to the people that Mubarak comes from the military and has strong ties to them.  Despite discontent with Mubarak, the military- even with it's support for Mubarak- still remains popular.

Egypt has a large military, with many US trained officers.  I don't know who all their generals are, but I'd have to imagine that there's at least one who could fit the bill.  If not, the mere act of someone being appointed by the military instead of Mubarak would help build support for that choice.

The Egyptian military has a big stake (including financially) in who takes over post-Mubarak.  I highly doubt they'd stay neutral.

303 277 Hey, Kratos.  What's your final conclusion about all of this?

In the end, there will be only chaos we are all boned. 

What do I think?  Well, so much as it doesn't really matter what I think, here it goes:

Mubarak's departure is a foregone conclusion.  The only question remaining is when he goes (and what European country he decides to lavishly spend out the rest of his shortened life).  If Mubarak is smart, he'll follow Miss Marple's advice and "allow" the military to appoint their own interim government. 

In the end, though, all ME nations (except Iraq...maybe, and that's a BIG if) that try to democratize become Islamic.  Consistent as gravity.  I see this whole she-bag going wrong very soon and Egypt becoming the Sunni version of Iran. 

304 I bet wherever they are they are talking on a cell phone and wearing lots of cologne. Yep, screwing with the GPS, too, relaying the conversation to and from people in the backseat, and cursing the drivers who seem to appear out of nowhere.

305 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at February 02, 2011 06:07 PM (c0A3e)

so you are seeing a caliphate with hard line sharia law?

no wonder the wealthy left.

Hosni is going to join his kids in London and probably much sooner than he anticipated.

306 Too bad the Internet is down, I think the Egyptian people would like to know they are burning their city down on behalf of a globalist shill.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 02, 2011 06:09 PM (1rflU)

Communism/Marxism comes in many flavors, who knew it tastes like curry and camel cheese?

307 those camels seemed kind of old timey to me.

308 I think that unless we are very lucky and Obama's plans are foiled,  we will see a pro-Islamacist run by the Muslim Brotherhood and its allies,  influenced by Iran.

As the flow of oil is hampered and the price per barrel rises,  our economy will falter and eventually tank. 

This is,  after all,  the goal of Obama:  to see us wandering the landscape,  barefoot and in rags,  fighting for scraps with the dogs.

309

those camels seemed kind of old timey to me.

 

Yeah.  Like those goat bladder blow-up dolls.

310 317 I think that unless we are very lucky and Obama's plans are foiled,  we will see a pro-Islamacist run by the Muslim Brotherhood and its allies,  influenced by Iran.

As the flow of oil is hampered and the price per barrel rises,  our economy will falter and eventually tank. 

This is,  after all,  the goal of Obama:  to see us wandering the landscape,  barefoot and in rags,  fighting for scraps with the dogs.

Posted by: Miss Marple at February 02, 2011 06:22 PM (Fo83G)

Actually, I'd think that skyrocketing oil prices would run at a right angle to O'Commie's plans for re-election.

311 We have a small window to step in and show a better face or be judged by our past.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 06:07 PM (TMB3S)

Better face?  Judged by our past?  That's ridiculous.

You act as if Egypt was ever any different.  Sadat was the same as Mubarak, but Westerners think that Sadat was an angel.  Nasser was worse.  The Egyptians loved Nasser, though, because he was all about pan-arab power and vowed to destroy Israel, giving laughable speeches about Egypt's power - while getting his butt kicked time and again.  Nasser and Sadat were both brutal authoritarians, just like Mubarak.  You also act as if the egyptians would ever like the US.  That's ridiculous.  And for you to talk about us having to show a "better face or be judged by our past" is really beyond the pale.

312 >>And for you to talk about us having to show a "better face or be judged by our past" is really beyond the pale. So I'll put you in the camp of all Muslim countries are useless and we should continue the strategy of pouring billions into repressive regimes because that has worked so spectacularly well. You seem to blithely ignore the fact that your strategy is what has produced out of control Islamic radicalism, massive poverty and unrest, hatred of American policy amongst the majority of the people and that is now threatening to blow the region apart and perhaps drag us into a much larger war. And supporting freedom is beyond the pale? Yea, ok. I'm pretty comfortable with my view.

313 And supporting freedom is beyond the pale? Yea, ok. I'm pretty comfortable with my view.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 07:59 PM (TMB3S)

You aren't supporting freedom. 

Tell me, Jack, how animated was your opposition to the Camp David Accords?  You must have been against that, because that was the support of an authoritarian ruler in Egypt, and it was something that Egyptians would find shameful and humiliating.  Sadat went against Egyptian popular opinion (in a BIG way) with that.  Or have you only lately come to think that was bad policy for the US, as it REQUIRED us supporting an authoritarian ruler of Egypt?

314 >>Tell me, Jack, how animated was your opposition to the Camp David Accords? Ridiculous straw man. Peace agreements are great but what is important is what comes after. Are you proud of how we paid of a succession of Egyptian dictators to provide us peace at any price? How has that worked out? Or are you more proud of what we did in places like Germany and Japan, places many also said were barbaric cultures, particularly Japan, and could never support free and open societies? Which has worked out better for us, cost us less money in the long run and made better, more free societies and better allies? Or is it your position that Arab societies are uniquely incapable of democratic rule?

315 Jack, I asked you a direct question about the Camp David Accords.  Did you support that treaty or not?  Not peace treaties, generally, but that specific one and all that it entailed - which included support of the authoritarian rulers who would be implementing it.

--Or is it your position that Arab societies are uniquely incapable of democratic rule?

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 08:10 PM (TMB3S)

Not uniquely, but they are incapable of it without total reacculturation.  Even Mubarak was a vicious anti-semite and used to run anti-Israel shows on Egyptian TV, which the Egyptian public lapped up - because they love that stuff.

316 Or are you more proud of what we did in places like Germany and Japan, places many also said were barbaric cultures, particularly Japan, and could never support free and open societies? Which has worked out better for us, cost us less money in the long run and made better, more free societies and better allies?

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 08:10 PM (TMB3S)

If you are asking whether doing the same thing to arab countries as we did to Japan and Germany, in order to prep them for systems that we then IMPOSED on them, then, "Yes" that might work in the arab world.  Of course, arabs are not nearly as bright as either the Japanese or the Germans, so the chances are that the arabs won't turn out as well, but if you want to try decimating the arabs and then forcing them to be civilized, then I think that might have a chance.  But, that's not what you're proposing, is it?

317 Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 08:10 PM (TMB3S)

BTW, how would you characterize MacArthur's rule over Japan?

318 >>Not uniquely, but they are incapable of it without total reacculturation. Even Mubarak was a vicious anti-semite and used to run anti-Israel shows on Egyptian TV, which the Egyptian public lapped up - because they love that stuff. Exactly my point. Instead of an intensive effort, as we did in Germany, which was pretty darn anti-semitic as I remember, and Japan, which committed acts that would make Islamic nuts proud, to help those cultures move beyond that shit, we paid a series of strongmen billions of dollars throughout the years to keep the peace at any cost. That included them feeding their populations with the worst sort of hateful mistruths (why do you think the Egyptian people think they beat the Israelis... do you think they are stupid or misinformed?) chocking off any outside information and contact, while they enriched themselves and their cronies with our money and kept the vast majority of their people in poverty and ignorance. We have a bad history of this shit with dictators not just in the middle east but in Latin America, Africa and beyond and we are then shocked, SHOCKED, at the level of anti-American hatred of the population who have been a steady diet of it all their lives. The nature of my work means I travel a lot and I get to see the results of our policies, good and bad, first hand. This isn't a right or left thing and it's certainly not an anti-American thing but it's stupid to not admit we haven't made mistakes in our foreign policy that are coming back to haunt us. Turn on the TV and watch it live.

319 --Exactly my point. Instead of an intensive effort, as we did in Germany, which was pretty darn anti-semitic as I remember

Germany wasn't next to Israel, and there were no Jews left in Germany.  Anti-semitism among Germans was not an issue.

--and Japan, which committed acts that would make Islamic nuts proud, to help those cultures move beyond that shit, we paid a series of strongmen billions of dollars throughout the years to keep the peace at any cost.

Again, what would you characterize MacArthur's rule over Japan as?  Do you support us totally taking over an arab country and forcing them to try and become civilized?  I doubt you do.

-- That included them feeding their populations with the worst sort of hateful mistruths (why do you think the Egyptian people think they beat the Israelis... do you think they are stupid or misinformed?)

What the Egyptians exhibit is no different than any of the other arab countries.  It has nothing to do with "hateful mistruths" ... which are in the koran.  Are you going to take their korans away?  I don't think so.  And they are stupid and misinformed.  That should be obvious.

--We have a bad history of this shit with dictators not just in the middle east but in Latin America, Africa and beyond and we are then shocked, SHOCKED, at the level of anti-American hatred of the population who have been a steady diet of it all their lives.

Dude.  I mean, really.  Latin America is a shithole, with or without American participation - and most of our participation has been to try and help them be stable enough to do business, which helps all.  You probably blame the US for Mexico, too.

--The nature of my work means I travel a lot and I get to see the results of our policies, good and bad, first hand. This isn't a right or left thing and it's certainly not an anti-American thing but it's stupid to not admit we haven't made mistakes in our foreign policy that are coming back to haunt us. Turn on the TV and watch it live.

Mistakes in our foreign policy have been minimal compared to anyone else and nothing compared to what most places do to themselves.  America has left a trail of prosperity and freedom for those nations that have allied with us.  You might hate the Shah, but Iran was freer under the Shah than under the islamo-freaks.  But, you seem to want to blame America for the problems of Africa and Latin America (which have ALWAYS had problems - always!) and claim that we are running around suppressing people the world over.  America wants to do business, and we want people who are rich enough to do business with.  That means more than a small sliver of some society.  That means that we want wealthy nations where the people are free enough to buy lots of shit. 

And you have STILL not answered my simple direct question about Camp David.  Since it required supporting an authoritarian thug running an intensely anti-American, anti-Western population in order to be effective, you must have opposed Camp David from the beginning.  Is that true or not?  If you supported Camp David, then you supported Sadat and thus, Mubarak.  If not, then just say so.

I opposed Camp David from the beginning.  I thought it was a raw deal for Israel, who never should have given Sinai back.  What about you?

320 >>Germany wasn't next to Israel, and there were no Jews left in Germany. Anti-semitism among Germans was not an issue. Right, because those that weren't exterminated we moved... right next to possibly the only people on the planet who hated them worse than the Nazis. And then we left them there by paying off their neighbors to only hate them and occasionally try to kill them. How has anything changed in the last 60+ years? >>Again, what would you characterize MacArthur's rule over Japan as? Do you support us totally taking over an arab country and forcing them to try and become civilized? I doubt you do. Of course not because as I'm sure you know there are different solutions to different circumstances. But do you think giving billions to dictators who actively worked against us by inflaming their populations with an outside enemy, pretty standard stuff for dictators, which happened to be Israel was a smart idea? I'm still waiting for you to answer this simple question. Its only fair since I keep answering yours. >>What the Egyptians exhibit is no different than any of the other arab countries. It has nothing to do with "hateful mistruths" ... which are in the koran. Are you going to take their korans away? I don't think so. And they are stupid and misinformed. That should be obvious. Yea, yea, and the Japanese were so different because they only were ruled by a living god who dictated that all outsiders were devils. You know what should be obvious? I've been going to the middle east for years, don't look middle eastern at all, and I still have my head. I expect to have it the next time I go there as well. The percentage of people who are nuts over Islamic fundamentalism is very small compared to the population at large. Insignificant compared to the number of Japanese who thought the emperor was a living god. The Arab countries have no reason to stop blaming Israel for all the ills of the world and make them a demon because our billions flow to them no matter what they say. We only impose sanctions when they threaten us. You may hate this simple fact but it just happens to be true. Who hates Israel more than the Saudi leadership? Nobody. And they allow this shit to be preached to their people on a daily basis. But since you say that an entire region is stupid I will acknowledge your view even if I think it's stupid. >>Dude. I mean, really. Latin America is a shithole, with or without American participation - and most of our participation has been to try and help them be stable enough to do business, which helps all. You probably blame the US for Mexico, too. Wow. Your level of cultural condescension is breathtaking. Misinformed but breathtaking nonetheless. The PRI led Mexico for 70 years as a virtual dictatorship and when it failed, we bailed them out and helped them move to a democracy. If you think we had nothing to do with either, you're not paying attention. >>Mistakes in our foreign policy have been minimal compared to anyone else and nothing compared to what most places do to themselves. America has left a trail of prosperity and freedom for those nations that have allied with us. You might hate the Shah, but Iran was freer under the Shah than under the islamo-freaks. But, you seem to want to blame America for the problems of Africa and Latin America (which have ALWAYS had problems - always!) and claim that we are running around suppressing people the world over. America wants to do business, and we want people who are rich enough to do business with. That means more than a small sliver of some society. That means that we want wealthy nations where the people are free enough to buy lots of shit. Oh blow it out your ass. I'm sick of you jingoistic America is never wrong idiots. I never said America wasn't the greatest beacon for freedom in the history of the world. It is. But we aren't perfect and pretending we are is simplistic, stupid and wrong. Take your "you hate America" bullshit and shove it up your ass. Was giving back the Sinai a strategic mistake, probably. Particularly when it was followed up with a policy of giving a dictator in Egypt a lifetime job and billions of dollars in aid and allowing him to push the vast majority of his people into poverty, allow the MB to exist as a boogeyman and now the only organized opposition party in Egypt and making himself and his cronies rich. Yea, I think that was a bad fucking deal. You? But since you keep asking if giving back the Sinai was a mistake and then acknowledging it was, stop pretending you don't think America makes mistakes in it's foreign policy. You do. You just admitted it. You just want to pretend you are super patriot and I'm not because I openly admit our foreign policy has not always been perfect, for us, and you only want to do it on the sly.

321 --Right, because those that weren't exterminated we moved... right next to possibly the only people on the planet who hated them worse than the Nazis.

You know nothing about history.  In fact, Jews weren't allowed into the Mandate after WWII (not more than a handful) so I don't know where you got this idea that someone moved them to there.  Quite the opposite.  And most of Israel's population came because around 750,000 Jews were chased or thrown out of arab countries after the establishment of the state, and Israel's nasty refusal to be exterminated by the arabs.  You know that Baghdad was about 1/4 Jewish at the turn of the 20th century?  You know how many are there, now?  6.

--But since you keep asking if giving back the Sinai was a mistake and then acknowledging it was, stop pretending you don't think America makes mistakes in it's foreign policy. You do. You just admitted it.

Er ... The mistake was Israel's, as the US never held Sinai.  My question was whether you were against Camp David, on the American side, because of the role that Carter forced the US to take in it - which you still refuse to answer.

And let me be clear, I didn't ask you if it was a strategic mistake for Israel, I asked you if you opposed the whole idea of Camp David because it involved the US supporting an authoritarian, Sadat, and then Mubarak.  When Camp David came out, did you say, "I oppose that because Carter will force the US to get into bed with an authoritarian ruler in Sadat and Egyptians will hate us!"?

322 >>You know nothing about history. Try hard not to be a douchebag. There was a public and private effort after WWII to move the Jews to a safe place. Europe sure as hell wanted nothing to do with them and it wasn't exactly a secret. Israel was formed specifically because it was the least bad idea the western leaders could come up with. You either know this and are pretending it's not so or are ignorant. >>Er ... The mistake was Israel' Er.... wrong skippy. Israel had the aid of both Britain and France in turning back the Egyptians in the Sinai and only agreed to return it after getting an Aide de Memoire from the US and a guarantee from the UN to both a peace keeping force and rights to the Straits of Tiran. But then you knew that, right? You want to keep this up cause I can keep batting you around all night.

323 But before you go on, answer the questions I posed. Time for you to do so answering.

324 --Try hard not to be a douchebag. There was a public and private effort after WWII to move the Jews to a safe place.

No one was moving Jews to the Mandate, except for Jews.  And they were doing it "illegally".  Do you know why the Stern Gang and the Irgun were operating?

--Europe sure as hell wanted nothing to do with them and it wasn't exactly a secret. Israel was formed specifically because it was the least bad idea the western leaders could come up with. You either know this and are pretending it's not so or are ignorant.

Israel was not "formed" by the UN, as I assume you are implying.  Israel was formed by force of arms.  The UN did nothing but make a symbolic resolution (that no one tried to enforce in any way) after which everyone on Earth expected the new state to be done away with in a matter of weeks.  That's why Israel has NEVER been on the borders declared by the UN.  Israel was going to exist no matter what the UN said, as should be obvious from the way it had to fight for its very existence, on its own.

--Er.... wrong skippy. Israel had the aid of both Britain and France in turning back the Egyptians in the Sinai and only agreed to return it after getting an Aide de Memoire from the US and a guarantee from the UN to both a peace keeping force and rights to the Straits of Tiran. But then you knew that, right?

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 09:55 PM (TMB3S)

France and Britain?  Are you talking about '56?  Because Camp David had nothing to do with '56.  Israel gave back Sinai after '56 but took it back in the Six Day War.

325 But before you go on, answer the questions I posed. Time for you to do so answering.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 09:56 PM (TMB3S)

You have yet to answer my SIMPLE question about the Camp David Accords from the US perspective.  Did you oppose them?  One simple question.

326 Nice try. Answer my questions. I'm done responding to yours.

327 Answer my questions. I'm done responding to yours.

Posted by: JackStraw at February 02, 2011 10:42 PM (TMB3S)

You never even started answering my simple question.  You jumped on my explanation of Camp David from the Israeli view, but misinterpreted that as some comment on US foreign policy.  Then, you refused to address the issue that you, yourself, were so adamant about, with respect to the US side in Camp David (after I took the time to explain to you that my analysis of the problems with Camp David had nothing to do with the US position).  I addressed pretty much everything else you wrote - half of which was just made up or confused history.

And I was nice enough to not even say anything about your comments of the sort of "You want to keep this up cause I can keep batting you around all night."  But, now you are trying to imply that I haven't addressed the issues you raised (which I have spent much time doing - correcting many of your errors) and you are going to run away without ever addressing the initial and simple question that involved the sort of US policy that you were screaming about - Camp David from the US end.

Okay.  You picked an apt screenname.

328 Dude- >>You never even started answering my simple question. You started questioning me. Look up thread. This isn't hard. You jumped on my explanation of Camp David from the Israeli view, but misinterpreted that as some comment on US foreign policy. Then, you refused to address the issue that you, yourself, were so adamant about, with respect to the US side in Camp David (after I took the time to explain to you that my analysis of the problems with Camp David had nothing to do with the US position). I addressed pretty much everything else you wrote - half of which was just made up or confused history. >>Well this would be bullshit because no, I never even engaged you on Camp David. And I was nice enough to not even say anything about your comments of the sort of "You want to keep this up cause I can keep batting you around all night." But, now you are trying to imply that I haven't addressed the issues you raised (which I have spent much time doing - correcting many of your errors) and you are going to run away without ever addressing the initial and simple question that involved the sort of US policy that you were screaming about - Camp David from the US end. >>Awesome of you to keep correcting me, accept you haven't. And again with Camp David? >>Okay. You picked an apt screenname. As did you. You keep adopting their topics of pretending to answer questions by asking your own. Nice job.

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