1 Have stopped making rope in this country?

2 Gabe, are you pro-life or pro-abortion?

3 Bullets?  We still have some of those.  Right?  Rope?  Maybe a wood chipper?  I'm just thinking off the top of my head here.

4 My understanding is that the barbiturates are used to literally put them to sleep.  Potassium chloride causes the fatal heart attack.

5 I believe another drug company known as "Federal" makes a product called Hydra-Shok.  Works in seconds and is completely painless when administered directly to the occipital or temporal lobes.

6 Gabe, are you pro-life or pro-abortion?

I'm pro-life.

7 And by drug company, I mean munitions.

8 Don't some states still have an option for hanging and firing squad?

To paraphrase Clinton, executions should be safe, legal, fast, and common for murderers.

9 we are losing jobs to I T A L Y ??  wtf.

10 Welp. The gallows will have to do.

11 Sharks with laser beams?

12 Running Man, the Series.

13 I am not for the death penalty but pretty sad when Italy has a better business climate than the US.

14 A number of the states you site have been able to obtain stock that will not expire until 2014. Also, the feds have already found the switch to pentobarb to be okay. Does Oklahoma have more common sense? No, not really. They ran out of thiopental and intended to use a substitute and were opposed by the defense. When they obtained additional thiopental, the federal judge would not drop the writ on grounds that the issue was moot. Anyway, the federal court ruled it was okay to use pentobarb (duh). Of course, the usual suspects still whine that it causes suffering. And the 9th Circuit received a major bitch slap by the USSC on habeas corpus this week.

15 9 we are losing jobs to I T A L Y ?? wtf. Posted by: greatwhileitlasted That was my reaction. Why did the company move? Why Italy? Unless they did that because they knew the Italians would object to making the drug, and this was their out to stop manufacturing it.

16 Call me. I'm pre-approved for government work.

17 I don't want the condemned to entertain me. Give them a quick exit from this world, and let us bury them and forget about them.

18 Why don't we just drop them off in Pakistan dressed in T-shirt that says "MOHAMMED SUCKS".

19 " My understanding is that the barbiturates are used to literally put them to sleep. Potassium chloride causes the fatal heart attack." No, it literally puts them in a fatal coma. Any of the 3 drugs if used alone would cause death. The idea to use 3 drugs was to speed death up. Anyway, it seems that one bolus of thiopental or pentobarbital is even faster then the 3 drug method, with death occurring on average within 6 minutes.

20

Rifle rounds are still relatively inexpensive.  Just sayin' is all...

Seriously, this is a silly gesture on their part.  I suspect a large enough dose of just about any general anesthetic would do the job.  The whole reason we need anesthesiologists and CRNAs when you get put under is essentially to make sure you don't die.

21 If pentobarbital was good enough for Marilyn, it is good enough for the asswipes who earne their way to deathrow.

22 Hey, I doubt China would ever ban exports to us.Have them make it there.

23 Sodium pentothal is the "truth serum" drug - why can't we make it in this country?  It's been around forever

sigh this is sad

24 22 If pentobarbital was good enough for Marilyn, it is good enough for the asswipes who earne their way to deathrow.

Posted by: moi at January 22, 2011 11:37 AM (Ez4Ql)

But Jack and Bobbie told me they were diet pills!

25 Firing squad works a hell of a lot faster than 3 - 6 minutes.

26 Instead of the sodium thiopental, I would suggest 230 grains of subarachnoid plumbum administed via a large bore catheter at around 830 ft/sec.

27 Inject an air bubble and end of show. And it is free,  until alcore gets his way and taxes it.

28 Gabe I'm with you, I don't favor the death penalty either, but it's mainly from a libertarian viewpoint - I don't trust the state to be accurate enough to know that every single DP verdict is correct and that the state therefore isn't putting an innocent man to death

and I'm also pro-life

29 24 Sodium pentothal is the "truth serum" drug - why can't we make it in this country?  It's been around forever

sigh this is sad

Posted by: chemjeff at January 22, 2011 11:38 AM (PaSAU)

I had a (relatively) minor operation some years back, and that was the anesthetic they used IIRC.  Getting put under is the weirdest damn feeling I've ever experienced.

30 23 Hey, I doubt China would ever ban exports to us.Have them make it there.

Posted by: steevy at January 22, 2011 11:38 AM (lJwOZ)

they'd probably ban sodium thiopental exports to us because they think it's too wimpy to use for executions

31 I am for capital punishment for murder when a smoking gun or weapon is involved, arm robbery when the perp is apprehended in action, with good evidence, and embezzlement over 1 million dollars.

32 they'd probably ban sodium thiopental exports to us because they think it's too wimpy to use for executions We'll sell you any execution drug, as long as we can bill the condemned's family for the dose.

33 heroin  would lessen the number of appeals

34 No, they would ban Chinese SP for lead contamination.

35 If they can put "Skins" on TV, why not show somebody frying in the chair.
Screw the hide it form society. 
Show 'em what happens when you "let loose."

36 I think California has about 140 doses good until 2014. Since the chances they are going to use more than a fraction of them before they expire, they will be sharing with Texas.

37 I oppose the death penalty for some of chemjeff's reasons, but I also think it's terrible public policy for society to just give up on people.  I think that our society is made better by attempting to rehabilitate criminals.  Even if the criminals themselves never repent, a great deal is learned in the process of trying to rehabilitate them that can be applied to others who are able to change.  In addition, there is a chance for people on the individual level to better themselves, spiritually and in other ways, by working with a populations most have given up on.  The redemption that people who oppose the death penalty on religious grounds actually goes both ways. 

Also pro-life (although it irritates me that this is a litmus test some use to assess whether opposition to the death penalty is a valid position for someone to hold).  They're apples and oranges. 

38 I hate the death penalty- it's too easy. Murderers and Rapists need to help repair the nations infrastructure. Say, 20 hours a day ,every day- kinda like Cool Hand Luke but without all the luxuries they had.

39 I had a (relatively) minor operation some years back, and that was the anesthetic they used IIRC.  Getting put under is the weirdest damn feeling I've ever experienced.

yeah for the few times when I needed some serious oral surgery, the nitrous they administered made me loopy-crazy - it's weird

40 "Saw figures a while back about the cost. Staggering. " Those figures are prepared by those who oppose the DP. Don't believe them.

41 Pentobarbital is also used in Oregon's physician-assisted suicides

Well, if it's good enough for your doctor to kill you (and get reimbursed by the state, if you're poor), it should be good enough for the state to kill you.

42 I'm both pro-life and pro-capital punishment.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  Only to libs who become apoplectic jackasses as soon as the subject comes up.

43 There's always tall buildings.

44 44 I'm both pro-life and pro-capital punishment.  Does that make me a hypocrite?

I don't see how it does.  Abortion is, for the most part, not a death sentence imposed by the State, even if the State does facilitate it. 

45 I don't trust the state to be accurate enough to know that every single DP verdict is correct and that the state therefore isn't putting an innocent man to death

Posted by: chemjeff at January 22, 2011 11:41 AM (PaSAU)

That's about the only anti-capital punishment argument that I find persuasive.  I find nothing immoral or unjust about capital punishment (for appropriate offenses such as murder and child rape) per se - in some cases, I think withholding it is the immoral and unjust course.  However, I tend to share chemjeff's lack of faith as to the courts, the lawyers (both the prosecution and defense) and the jurors.

46 32 I am for capital punishment for murder when a smoking gun or weapon is involved, arm robbery when the perp is apprehended in action, with good evidence, and embezzlement over 1 million dollars.


Note to self:  next time, keep it small.

47 44 I'm both pro-life and pro-capital punishment.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  Only to libs who become apoplectic jackasses as soon as the subject comes up.

Posted by: NC Ref at January 22, 2011 11:49 AM (/izg2)

well yeah, to the "tolerant", "open-minded", "critical thinking", "nuance discerning" left, you are a hypocrite, because they would much rather attempt to call you a hypocrite than actually analyze a logically cohesive argument

see they've learned something that we need to think about - the goal for them isn't to construct the best argument possible, the goal is to destroy their opponent's image

48 45 There's always tall buildings.
Posted by: nickless

The French had a good method.

49 I'm both pro-life and pro-capital punishment.  Does that make me a hypocrite?

Only to the people who can't discern a difference between an innocent baby and a convicted serial killer (and the people who think the difference is the latter has  rights but the former doesn't).

50 Y-not, you wouldn't give up on Jared Loughner?

51 Hard labor 20 hours a day would be illegal. Why do people make suggestions as alternatives to the DP that could never be imposed? Death row is not charm school. These people were sentenced to death because it was determined that they were a continuing danger. What price do you put on innocent life? Should murderers, plus, be spared so they can murder/assault/rape prison officers, prison workers, cell mates, call hits on witnesses outside the prison, etc.? Lifers earned privileges. How would you feel if your kid was raped and murdered by someone who is allowed to know perform in a prison rock band and on national television? Play tennis and garden?

52 I think chemjeff nailed it.

53 you wouldn't give up on Jared Loughner?
Posted by: t-bird

He shot the little girl, he has to go.

54 44 I'm both pro-life and pro-capital punishment.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  Only to libs who become apoplectic jackasses as soon as the subject comes up.
Posted by: NC Ref at January 22, 2011 11:49 AM (/izg2)


No, one is innocent the other is not.

55
I suggest punching a hole in the base of the skull and sucking out the brain. According to leftards, it's OK for babies, so why not murderers?

56 The death penalty is best delivered on-scene by the intended victim. That's the way you've got the right perpetrator.

57 And one day will some controversial antibiotic or other drug be ruled politically incorrect and shit canned also?

58 Pure Nitrogen is cheaper and more painless.

59 Just put them in a room with a plate of arsenic cookies and a syringe full of morphine and see what happens.

60 There are plenty of home-grown American companies that make rope, and bullets as well.

61 For some reason I just get more satisfaction with locking the worst of the worst in an isolation cell with one meal a day and letting their brain go to mush than making them a legend with last words, a last, meal, and endless media coverage. That being said, I was really disappointed when they stopped using firing squads.

62 Ethanol would work, if you use enough of it.

63 Also pro-life (although it irritates me that this is a litmus test some use to assess whether opposition to the death penalty is a valid position for someone to hold).  They're apples and oranges. 

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2011 11:48 AM (pW2o

44 I'm both pro-life and pro-capital punishment.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  Only to libs who become apoplectic jackasses as soon as the subject comes up.

Posted by: NC Ref at January 22, 2011 11:49 AM (/izg2)

This.  It's funny how people that love to claim the mantle of intellect and grasp of nuance can't for the life of them seem to understand the difference between, say, executing a convicted murderer after exhausting the judicial process and killing an unborn baby for (almost always) the sake of personal convenience.

64

I saw a show once about how a prison had a liason type person whose sole responsibility for I don't know how long was to interact with the families of the murdered victims while the prisoner went through the weeks before being put to death.

Gov't can make anything over-complicated. Can we out-source this, too?

65 "Pure Nitrogen is cheaper and more painless." It comes with another 10-20 years of litigation. The methods they have now are painless. Also, it is nto a requirement that it be painless. Do you think your death will be painless when your time comes? I doubt it.

66 Posted by: moi at January 22, 2011 11:54 AM (Ez4Ql)

Prison rape is another issue.  Nobody should be raped or assaulted in prison, whether they are on Death Row or not.  The fact that the state looks the other way when these things occur is another reason why we shouldn't put (peacetime) life-or-death decisions in the hands of the state anyway.

67 Ya know this may be a blessing. I mean a bullet in the back of the head is much cheaper. Just ask Stalin

68 57. I like it, plus according to the left it's painless.

69 60 Pure Nitrogen is cheaper and more painless.

Posted by: toby928™ at January 22, 2011 11:57 AM (S5YRY)

actually, carbon monoxide poisoning would prob. work just as well - it puts you to sleep first

70 Toby brings up a good idea. And how about the sweet, sweet sleep of carbon monoxide? Let him sit in Al Gore's SUV in the garage. I just don't see how liberals could complain about that. "Why must innocent Gaia suffer, too?"

71 Only to the people who can't discern a difference between an innocent baby and a convicted serial killer

There is a large percentage of our population that won't discern any difference between these two, deliberately, because they're looking for the easy way out.  Pathetic.

72 Give them half a flight to Hawaii.

73
Italy's a funny country.

Almost as arrogant as France, and equally as reprehensible in their values.

74 Mama AJ: They keep them informed about what is going on and also help with travel arrangements if they choose to be wits. at the execution. The families are jerked around so much by the numerous stays it is sickening. They are also harassed by habeas corpus attys and anti DP jerks. They will call them nonstop, send them letters, and knock on their doors. Most of the time these people are elderly and they can't even use their own telephone the harassment is so bad.

75 52 Y-not, you wouldn't give up on Jared Loughner?

Probably not. 

Ironically, the only class of criminals that I think are suitable for State execution are members of the military (or perhaps also police, since they are charged with the right to use lethal force) who commit serious crimes (murder, treason, spying).  In that case, they accept living to a higher standard than the rest of us and are given powers over the rest of us, so I could see those folks' crimes being so abhorrent against society that they should pay the ultimate price.   But, probably, even those folks shouldn't get it. 

I have a different perspective.  My dad had a terrible childhood with an abusive father.  Really awful stuff.  He worked his whole life in criminal justice (prisons, probation/social work), culminating with a job in a pilot prison program working with really scummy people.  I think he was a better person for having done so and I know he did help some of those guys break the cycle of violence that they'd lived.  And my dad is as conservative as they come. 

Also from that I developed the sense that the death penalty is not applied "fairly."  There's no doubt that if you have a great lawyer, you can avoid it much more readily than if you don't.  That's a big problem, imho.  Relying on the inefficiency of applying the death penalty (in most states) is not an adequate solution to that problem.  And, it makes absolutely no sense to me that a person who robs a bank is subject to it, but a rapist is not. 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't hold a candle in some vigil for a guy like Loughner, but I don't think it's good public policy for the State to kill its citizens. 

76 #64, HAH

77 Firing squad, like Utah.

Three shooters. Two, chosen at random, have blanks.

78 @68
Prison rape is another issue.  Nobody should be raped or assaulted in prison, whether they are on Death Row or not.

And this is a good point, too.  And also funny in a way because my mom, who was also extremely conservative (and a life-long Republican, whereas my dad had started out as a Democrat back in the Kennedy era) started her foray into public life (as a columnist) writing about prison reform.

Our prisons are a training camp for future criminals.  We need to stop that. 

79 Salt, transfats, and cigarettes.

80 Lead injection at 2500 fps.

81

oh, and the next time some anti-death penalty ninny tells you, "But but but life in prison is worse than death!," tell them to go horsefuck.

The parole board here in MA released a felon from prison who was serving THREE LIFE SENTENCES. The felon robbed a department store the day after Christmas and shot and killed a police officer in the process.

82 the goal for them isn't to construct the best argument possible, the goal is to destroy their opponent's image

Posted by: chemjeff at January 22, 2011 11:52 AM (PaSAU)

Yeah...I CAN present my position logically to support both positions, the difficulty comes in getting the stupid libs to sit down and shut up and listen for two minutes after they hear the words "abortion" and "death penalty."  And I've pretty much given up trying.

83

The families are jerked around so much by the numerous stays it is sickening. They are also harassed by habeas corpus attys and anti DP jerks.

Blech. What a circus.

84 73 And how about the sweet, sweet sleep of carbon monoxide? Let him sit in Al Gore's SUV in the garage. Posted by: t-bird at January 22, 2011 12:02 PM (FcR7P)

Then charge the family for the carbon credits...

85 Just go back to the gallows.  No company has a corner on rope and wood.

86 "Prison rape is another issue. Nobody should be raped or assaulted in prison, whether they are on Death Row or not. The fact that the state looks the other way when these things occur is another reason why we shouldn't put (peacetime) life-or-death decisions in the hands of the state anyway." Don't try to hijack the thread, murderer lover! Almost all deathrows are single cells and I have never head of anyone on deathrow getting raped. It is the murderer whose life is spared who rapes female prison employees and either murders them or beats them to within an inch of their lives.

87

Can anyone explain to me why Charles Manson isn't room temperature? And why one cent of tax money should be spent to keep him alive?

IMO the DP should be used on sub-humans like Loughner (and that monster/baby-killer in Philly). And I realize that if his parents or the sheriff or anybody had intervened, six innocent lives would have been saved. But they didn't or couldn't, and now there is a memorial where there shouldn't be one.

We should draw a line where we say "You will die for your actions." For some, it will serve as a deterrent. For the others who won't, make certain that society is free of them. They should be executed with haste, within a year, max.

Sorry Gabe, but to me, our current DP policies only help lawyers. Endless appeals and the massive amount of taxpayers money spent on them do not serve to protect society in any way. Thugs like Mumia and Manson should have been executed a long time ago.

88 Richard Speck sure seemed to be living it up in prison.

89 Let's get Medieval.

90 The parole board here in MA released a felon from prison who was serving THREE LIFE SENTENCES. The felon robbed a department store the day after Christmas and shot and killed a police officer in the process.

When did prison become about "rehabilitating" criminals instead of protecting the public from them?

Not an improvement.

91 83 @68
Prison rape is another issue.  Nobody should be raped or assaulted in prison, whether they are on Death Row or not.

And this is a good point, too.  And also funny in a way because my mom, who was also extremely conservative (and a life-long Republican, whereas my dad had started out as a Democrat back in the Kennedy era) started her foray into public life (as a columnist) writing about prison reform.

Our prisons are a training camp for future criminals.  We need to stop that. 

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2011 12:06 PM (pW2o

+1 I have to confess, I have used the prison shower thing as a punchline before.  However, when you read about what really goes on, and what it does to the victims (who tend to be the younger, weaker, less-violent offenders, as I understand it) it's truly an awful thing.

92 Also pro-life (although it irritates me that this is a litmus test some use to assess whether opposition to the death penalty is a valid position for someone to hold).  They're apples and oranges. 

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2011 11:48 AM (pW2o

--Exactly.  Why is it so hard to believe that it's pro-life to argue that the state has a right to validate life by reserving the ultimate penalty for crimes that remove the lives of the innocent?

93 That was the start of the silliness, I think.  If society sentences someone to death, then society must be willing to just kill him.

I guess it was to allow people who hold religious beliefs against killing the ability to do their jobs - acting as an individual on behalf of society - with some measure of consistency with their morals.  It kind of makes it less of a personal act. 

94 "Can anyone explain to me why Charles Manson isn't room temperature? " I read an article not too long ago about how Giovanni di Stefano is trying to convince Manson to let him represent him. His argument is that it wasn't "direct murder".

95 I oppose the death penalty for some of chemjeff's reasons, but I also think it's terrible public policy for society to just give up on people.

It's not that society has given up on these people, these people have given up on society. And society has to protect itself.

96 95 Three shooters. Two, chosen at random, have blanks.

Posted by: Onlooker at January 22, 2011 12:04 PM (0hNjS)

That was the start of the silliness, I think.  If society sentences someone to death, then society must be willing to just kill him.  Just the implication that it's acceptable to assign some sort of guilt to this procedure is wrong.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at January 22, 2011 12:10 PM (G/MYk)

 I think the thought behind that is for each shooter to not know if it was them that actually killed a human being.

I couldnt do it.. no matter who it was.  I would also wonder who is the person who would volunteer for that.

97 Pretty much everybody else beat me to it, but, yeah, I would like to point out that if you go to Cheaper Than Dirt, you'll find plenty of "Capital Punishment Solutions".  And I'm willing to be they won't have any qualms about selling it for that purpose.

Seriously, though, I think I know why we don't use the firing squad anymore. 

Unions.

Think about it.  I'm pretty sure that the Correctional Officers union probably have a clause in the contract forbidding CO's from cleaning up splattered brains and whatnot.  You know, because it's a blood borne infection hazard.

98

96 Nitrogen mask.  (oxygen mask hooked to nitrogen bottle instead) 

 

How about liquid nitrogen?  Combine with a drop off the prison roof, and now you've got entertainment!

99 I'm currently between jobs. Perhaps I could help research replacements for Hospira?

100 Can somebody explain to me the benefit to society of putting weight rooms in jails? Seems a tad stupid to me.

101 Firing squad, like Utah. Three shooters. Two, chosen at random, have blanks. Posted by: Onlooker at January 22, 2011 12:04 PM (0hNjS) One bullet, back of the head, in prison cell. Really much cheaper. Trust me on this.

102 > 60 Pure Nitrogen is cheaper and more painless. Posted by: toby928™ Yeah. Hypoxia (easily delivered via 100% Nitrogen gas) is 100% painless and 100% fatal (assuming you wait a 10 minutes or so).

103
When did prison become about "rehabilitating" criminals instead of protecting the public from them?

Not an improvement.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at January 22, 2011 12:11 PM (4ucxv)

Robert Kennedy.

104 How about liquid nitrogen?  Combine with a drop off the prison roof, and now you've got entertainment!

BWAHAHAHAHA.

105 Why is it so hard to believe that it's pro-life to argue that the state has a right to validate life by reserving the ultimate penalty for crimes that remove the lives of the innocent?

The are you pro-life question is usually applied by pro-DP people as a "gotcha."  The problem is, that it focuses on the recipient of the death penalty (execution or abortion) and completely ignores the perpetrator of the act (both happening to be legal at this time, although I would argue that abortion is unconstitutional). 

They are completely different things, both in terms of the victims/recipients of death and in terms of who is doing it.  I am surprised that limited-government conservatives cannot at least acknowledge that fact, even if they still support the death penalty. 

106 Can somebody explain to me the benefit to society of putting weight rooms in jails?

Fat people are a threat to national security.

107 Death by MSNBC. It killed me, though it clearly wasn't quick or painless, sir.

108

I had a (relatively) minor operation some years back, and that was the anesthetic they used IIRC.  Getting put under is the weirdest damn feeling I've ever experienced.

Posted by: Insomniac at January 22, 2011 11:43 AM (OrJBb)

That was probably sodium barbitol, a widely used anesthetic. They used that to put me out.

109 @Timbo - From what I understand, nobody volunteered for firing-squad duty.  One day your CO would walk into the barracks and say "Okay, you, you, you, you, and you.  Grab your rifles and follow me."

Also, an experienced soldier can easily tell the difference in recoil from a real live round and a blank.  The entire ritual of issuing out a blank or two at random so the soldier could have some measure of internal peace seemed kind of silly under those circumstances. 

110 although I would argue that abortion is unconstitutional


Sure.  Depriving someone of life...without due process of law....

It doesn't seem very complicated to me.

111 When did prison become about "rehabilitating" criminals instead of protecting the public from them?

Who said it wasn't about protecting the public or punishing the criminals?  Of course it is, that's a give. 

If you want to warehouse criminals - of all stripes, not just murderers - without any attempt to rehabilitate them, then feel free to give those guys your home address when they are released after they've served their time.  Because I guarantee you that 10 or 15 years in the penitentiary is not going to make a guy suddenly come out as a reformed criminal unless you make some effort to rehabilitate him.

It's just common sense to try to rehabilitate them. 

112 117 @Timbo - From what I understand, nobody volunteered for firing-squad duty.  One day your CO would walk into the barracks and say "Okay, you, you, you, you, and you.  Grab your rifles and follow me."

Also, an experienced soldier can easily tell the difference in recoil from a real live round and a blank.  The entire ritual of issuing out a blank or two at random so the soldier could have some measure of internal peace seemed kind of silly under those circumstances. 

Posted by: Xoxotl at January 22, 2011 12:18 PM (CbVPH)

OMG, didnt know that...  I thought it would be prison guards.

113

Propofol is not in short supply.

114
Robert Chambers. The Preppy murderer.

He's bad to the core. And he's also back in jail, btw.

115 107 Can somebody explain to me the benefit to society of putting weight rooms in jails?

Seems a tad stupid to me.

Posted by: JackStraw at January 22, 2011 12:15 PM (TMB3S)

You mean, we don't want violent, aggressive, antisocial types getting bigger and stronger while serving their sentences? 

The reason usually given for weight rooms, TV, libraries etc. in prison is that it keeps the inmates occupied so there's less violence, allows the COs to keep order more easily and so forth.  I don't see why they don't just have them breaking rocks in the hot sun or working chain gangs - that would keep them plenty busy - but then again I'm not an expert in penal penis the prison system.

116 I couldnt do it.. no matter who it was.  I would also wonder who is the person who would volunteer for that.

I would take that as a part-time job.  This would be one of the advantages of having no internal moral compass.  I'd hang a dozen and sleep like a baby because I'm just an agent of the state.

117 Somewhat oddly, I wouldn't necessarily put Loughner up for the death penalty. On first impression, it would seem that the lad is batshit crazy -- which implies that there may be a medical cure someday. It may not be available before he dies of natural causes, but there may be hope.

On the flip side, I believe that the death rows of many states are filled with people who have overstayed their welcome on this planet -- and I really don't much care about the details of their eviction. The extreme attention devoted to making their final moments more pleasant than their victims' wastes a tremendous amount of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

118 Don't try to hijack the thread, murderer lover!

umm, wut?  you are a troll, right?

119
So how did Olbermann sign off? Did he talk about his departure?

120 And why does Larry O'Donnell still have a show, and why isn't O'Donnell in a mental hospital?

121 Because I guarantee you that 10 or 15 years in the penitentiary is not going to make a guy suddenly come out as a reformed criminal unless you make some effort to rehabilitate him.

They don't come out reformed now. The recidivism rate is around 2/3.

It's like every other gov't social-welfare program...the people who want to make something of themselves are going to work on making something of themselves, program or not, and the rest are just going to chew up money.

122 It's just common sense to try to rehabilitate them. 

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2011 12:20 PM (pW2o

One problem is that they can fake it. Then kill another innocent.

Personally, if we don't kill violent criminals, they need to be put away for life and with zero amenities. But that's just me.

123 It's just common sense to try to rehabilitate them. 

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2011 12:20 PM (pW2o

Robert Kennedy changed the way the US looked at punishment.

124
why did lobotomies go out of fashion?

125 I am from the Heinlein wing of Criminal Justice.

If it is insane it is sick and should be put down.
If it is sane it made a rational choice and should suffer the consequences.

I also am a proponent of tougher sentencing measures for lesser crime such as public flogging.

I am also of  the opinion that rapists and pedophiles should be put down as well.

126
castration?

127 "The second item in the liberal creed, after self-righteousness, is unaccountability. Liberals have invented whole college majors— psychology, sociology, women's studies— to prove that nothing is anybody's fault. No one is fond of taking responsibility for his actions, but consider how much you'd have to hate free will to come up with a political platform that advocates killing unborn babies but not convicted murderers. A callous pragmatist might favor abortion and capital punishment. A devout Christian would sanction neither. But it takes years of therapy to arrive at the liberal view."

--P.J. O'Rourke

128 why did lobotomies go out of fashion?

Posted by: Soothsayer3P0 at January 22, 2011 12:24 PM (uFokq)

Who says they did?

129 @129
Those sorts of programs are political hot potatoes, so the people working in them get partially funded or lose their funding midway through the program.  I'm not sure how many instances there have been of real concerted efforts to try to fix these guys.  My dad was part of a model program in MD that was having success, only to have its funding cut during an election year. 

I don't think it's correct to assume that everyone working in the prison or criminal justice system is Sheriff Dupnik level stupid and greedy. 

130

You mean, we don't want violent, aggressive, antisocial types getting bigger and stronger while serving their sentences? 

The reason usually given for weight rooms, TV, libraries etc. in prison is that it keeps the inmates occupied so there's less violence, allows the COs to keep order more easily and so forth.

Let them do aerobics. It's win-win.

131 People who object to the death penalty due to high costs are objecting to the wrong thing. The high cost is an artificial constraint that is not necessary. In my world this is how a death penalty trial process would go.

1. trial phase, requires substantial evidence and beyond "eye witness" testimony unless the witness has direct observation within 10 feet or less.

2. Conviction, requires unanimous jury verdict.

3. Following the trial a separate judge reviews the entire trial proceedings. Defendant's lawyer may present evidence as to why he thought the trial was unfair. This completed no later than 6 months after trial.

4. Defendant goes to death row or new trial dependent on review. If in death row:

5. Within 1 month may appeal to Gov for clemency. (President if federal)

6. After 1 month and no clemency execute. The only prohibited method would be drawing and quartering which was the intent of the founders.

This process should take less than a year and be much cheaper than the current mess.

132 "Let them do aerobics. It's win-win." Yeah, how could you want to be violent after doing Jane Fonda's "Sunshine Arms" and "Drive the Tractor" moves?

133 A callous pragmatist might favor abortion and capital punishment. A devout Christian would sanction neither.


I sanction both, and feel myself to be devout on the NC Ref scale of Christianity.  But if the state would change their policies about releasing violent offenders, instead keeping them segregated for life from the non-criminal element of society, it wouldn't be difficult for me to advocate doing away with capital punishment.

It'll never happen though.

134

29 Gabe I'm with you, I don't favor the death penalty either, but it's mainly from a libertarian viewpoint - I don't trust the state to be accurate enough to know that every single DP verdict is correct and that the state therefore isn't putting an innocent man to death

and I'm also pro-life

Posted by: chemjeff at January 22, 2011 11:41 AM (PaSAU)

I look at it pretty much the same way.

In my area there's a classic path to becoming a judge for life:

1) Get elected DA.
2) Secure a death penalty in a high profile case.
3) Run for judge.

I also don't trust a lot of detectives, either. There's no easier way to pesky case out of the way than pin it on someone who winds up dead.

135 Woah.  Completely misread that.  Time to start drinking again.  Scratch my last response.

136

So Italy doesn't want us to use this stuff for executions of inmates? Simple. Just move the inmates to Barack's health plan. A little counseling about treatment options. Shit we're ordering it by the barrel just to reduce the social security rolls. Death with dignity. Just think of the hundreds of thousands of jobs created. Problem solved. Hey that's my ice cream cone.

137 >>It's just common sense to try to rehabilitate them. Yeah well it ain't working. The US has one of the highest recidivism rates in the world. Approximately 60% of criminals released end up back in the can. My theory? Their lives are better on the inside. Three hots and a cot, no real responsibilities, get to hang with other sociopaths and get some of that sweet and tangy rehab which apparently does dick. I'd say it's time we tried something new. Let's make prison suck. There are plenty of menial jobs that society needs doing and we have a bunch of non-productive labor just waiting to be used. Fuck with society? Work for society. Don't want to work? Go directly to solitary. If you work hard you get a cookie and maybe a tad of rehab. Don't work and you can rot. Most criminals are wired wrong and that's why they are in the can in the first place. We should stop trying to fix them and figure out how to make the best out of these drags on society.

138 I don't trust the state to be accurate enough to know that every single DP verdict is correct and that the state therefore isn't putting an innocent man to death

I can see that in the abstract but, I don't think that there has been a credible doubt about the guilt of anyone actually executed in the last 50 years.  Not that someone wasn't sentence who was later exonerated, though I'll bet you could count those cases on two hands.

Maybe someone can put me some knowledge on this though.

139 On second thought, just call it a late term abortion. Real late. Its a BFD.

140 I read about a 11 month old who died from head injuries when her little head was repeatedly banged against a staircase while some creep was raping and sodomizing her. You people who don't believe in the DP are immoral. You value his life over the lives of the innocent.

141

Maybe we just put them in jail in Italy.

 

142 133 I am from the Heinlein wing of Criminal Justice.

If it is insane it is sick and should be put down.
If it is sane it made a rational choice and should suffer the consequences.

I think the distinction would be "curably sick" v. "sick". If, for instance, someone is a psychopath from the get-go, they are lacking in something and are not likely to improve. On the other hand, if someone is taken over by an organic condition, then there may be a core person that might be salvaged. On the flip side, so few of these mental aberrations are curable, so it may be just wishful thinking.

In Heinlein's time, I suspect that essentially none of the mental illnesses were curable, which puts us both in the exact same place.

What makes me suspicious are things like the potential link between toxoplasmosis and schizophrenia -- it just doesn't seem right to put someone to death because his parents had a cat. But only if you can find a way to get the parasite out and reverse the damage.

143

The problem with ending capital punishment is that the next thing antis will go after is LWOP.  That, too, will be claimed to be cruel and unusual; I don't think Europe even has that modicum of justice (maybe 10-15 years [their LIFE] for heinous murderers).

I also think you sell short the cost of the aging in prisons.  That is a cost that is going up by leaps and bounds thanks to three strikes alone.  And let's not forget transplants thanks to all the drug abusers, and now SRS is coming onto the radar.

Better to kill the bastards because convicted murderers have been known to kill behind bars, both other inmates and staff.  Kenneth McDuff is the poster child for a murderer sentenced to death, commuted after SCOTUS stopped executions in 1972, paroled, only to commit murder again and that time Texas finally took out the trash and he was finally executed.

144 You people who don't believe in the DP are immoral. You value his life over the lives of the innocent.

Posted by: moi at January 22, 2011 12:39 PM (Ez4Ql)

Not true.  I dont believe its anyone's right to take another life.  Put the creep in jail for the rest of his life.. never let him out.  Let God judge him.

145 Well, if it's good enough for your doctor to kill you (and get reimbursed by the state, if you're poor), it should be good enough for the state to kill you.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at January 22, 2011 11:49 AM (4ucxv)

Ding, ding!  That should end the spectacle of judges faking concern for cruel and unusual punishment and causing this dance.

146 why did lobotomies go out of fashion? Posted by: Soothsayer3P0 at January 22, 2011 12:24 PM (uFokq) Does the name Rosemary Kennedy ring a bell?

147

Just use nitrogen. Seal the convict in a room, and flood the chamber with nitrogen. He'll just pass out, and then die, because nitrogen is inert. He won't even realize it, because nitrogen makes up the majority of the gas we breath anyway. So he'll be breathing normally, and then lights out.

A couple of NASA engineers were accidentally killed in this way. Just look up itorgen asphyixiation

148 It's just common sense to try to rehabilitate them. I understand the sentiment, but where's the deterrent?

149

How can anyone be against the death penalty?

Seriously.

 

150 I hope you never have to defend your family. Oh, wait, you already said you won't. Never mind.

Posted by: MLK(jr) was a communist homosexual bartender with AIDS at January 22, 2011 12:47 PM (+u6Lh)

Self defense is a totally different thing.  I never said I would not defend my family.

151 >>Not true. I dont believe its anyone's right to take another life. Put the creep in jail for the rest of his life.. never let him out. Let God judge him. Do you support the US gov't deploying troops with the express purpose of killing people some of whom may have done absolutely nothing to any person but were merely drafted into the service of their country? We, our society, has supported the killing of people who are enemies of the state since our founding. Opposition to the death penalty is merely a decision on where you draw the line, it is not a black and white moral position.

152

I'd like to see it applied to certain rape convictions, as well. 

153 Yeah, how could you want to be violent after doing Jane Fonda's "Sunshine Arms" and "Drive the Tractor" moves?

Posted by: Joanie (Oven Gloves) at January 22, 2011 12:30 PM (wd0Iq)

That's probably an Eighth Amendment violation, right there.  Why not just shoot them up with Depo-Provera? Quicker and would probably have the same hormonal effect...

154
Do you support the US gov't deploying troops with the express purpose of killing people some of whom may have done absolutely nothing to any person but were merely drafted into the service of their country?

We, our society, has supported the killing of people who are enemies of the state since our founding. Opposition to the death penalty is merely a decision on where you draw the line, it is not a black and white moral position.

Posted by: JackStraw at January 22, 2011 12:51 PM (TMB3S)

War and self defense are totally different issues than the death penalty.

155 So what?  I don't care what his motivation was.  He took others' lives.  He took away their choice.  He did it intentionally.  I don't care where that intention grew from.  In taking away their lives, intentionally, he certainly gave away any possible right he might have had to his own.

See, there's the rub. Intention. People kill other people all the time, but few are considered murder and even fewer come up for the death penalty.

If someone cut their finger while cleaning the catbox, freaked out and started hearing voices, killed some people, but could be given an anti-parasite drug and some therapy and returned to a normal life, what would be the purpose of a death penalty in this case?

On the flip side, if someone had been beaten as a child, escaped to child services at 8, and 30 years later tortured and killed someone, why would you want to keep this guy around? If 30 years of polite society aren't enough to get over your childhood trauma, what's the chance that another 10 years in prison will help?

156 The Death Penalty is merely self defense on a cultural level.

Posted by: MLK(jr) was a communist homosexual bartender with AIDS at January 22, 2011 12:53 PM (+u6Lh)

No, its not. Its vengence killing.

157 No Shit Garrett

158

Posted by: cthulhu at January 22, 2011 12:56 PM (kaalw)

Seems to me you'd be an expert on insanity and death.

159 Can't we just drop a 16 ton weight on them?

160 I agonized for most of my adult life with the idea of execution. For years, I would have deliberate thought with regard to the moral and legal arguments for and against. I would think of the emotions that are involved in such a case: The pain caused to the families of the victims, the anger of those, such as myself, who wanted to rip the head from the perpetrators neck. I thought of my Christianity and does it allow for it.

I would think about it while in the shower. I would think about it while at work. I would think about it while sitting along the river. And, ultimately, it was during a drive that I found the comfort of a decision belief:

When there is no doubt.
When there is incontrovertible evidence.
When the crime meets the standard of heinous.

I have no concerns whatsoever with the death penalty.

161 No, its not. Its vengence killing.


You say that like it's a bad thing.

162 Nobody lives forever anyway.

163

So ... the only people who end up really suffering from his sickness (since he wasn't "there" when he was 'sick') are those he's killed?  Sorry.  Even normal people who kill others totally by accident that was no fault of their own, tend to still feel guilty about it.  The sicko, upon "recovering" should kill himself for the damage he has caused.

And I would even stipulate (purely for the debate) that psychiatrists actually had a clue about anything.

Posted by: iknowtheleft

Take the other side -- if a guy with 3 DUIs goes on a toot, loses control on a curve, rolls down an embankment and squashes a baby carriage, should this be a DP case? Most people would say this is not, but this person has more of a direct link between willful misbehavior and death than a person overcome by mental disease.

What if a guy had a brain tumor and his personality changed after it was excised?

I have my own concerns about psychiatrists having a clue -- and I think we could clear out 95% of death row inmates before worrying too much about it -- but there are cases where you go, "hmmmm....."

164 171 The Death Penalty is merely self defense on a cultural level.

Posted by: MLK(jr) was a communist homosexual bartender with AIDS at January 22, 2011 12:53 PM (+u6Lh)

No, its not. Its vengence killing.

Posted by: Timbo at January 22, 2011 12:58 PM (ph9vn)

You say vengeance like it's a bad thing.  What if he said "life imprisonment without possibility of parole"?  Would that be vengeance imprisonment? 

165
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Posted by: mpurinTexas (kicking Mexico's ass since 1836) at January 22, 2011 01:04 PM (paOeu)

It is.  Why would someone want to become a murderer. no matter how noble they think it is..   Would you not be doing the same thing you say you abhor?

166

I would suggest bringing back public crucifixtion -- put them along our interstate system -- because the Romans had the right idea.  But that's just me.

I worked in an animal shelter for a while -- put down perfectly nice animals whose only crime was that nobody wanted them (heh, kinda like some kids)...if they had to die for society's sins, then why not murders, rapists, and pedophiles?  I (reluctantly and sadly though it was) supported their deaths because of the harsh realities of life in an imperfect world, why not the deaths of scum who had done evil things?

167 >>War and self defense are totally different issues than the death penalty. No, war and the death penalty are not different things. Our society is organized around a set of rules and when you break them there are penalties to be paid. It doesn't matter whether you are committing an individual act like murder or are part of a larger outside effort such as war, you are breaking a rule agains the state. You say the penalty for committing an act of war against the state is justifiable death but an individual act is just vengeance. I say you are trying to make a distinction without difference. If an al Qaeda terrorist, a group we are at war with, kills a US citizen you say it is ok to kill him, heck , even if he hasn't killed anyone but is just part of al Qaeda. But if some criminal kills a US citizen you think it's morally wrong to kill them. Makes no sense at all to me.

168

War and self defense are totally different issues than the death penalty.

Great philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas disagree with you. War and the death penalty are the State acting in defense of its citizens. This is the only reason they are moral.

169

You say vengeance like it's a bad thing.  What if he said "life imprisonment without possibility of parole"?  Would that be vengeance imprisonment? 

Posted by: Insomniac at January 22, 2011 01:04 PM (OrJBb)

protecting innocents by incarceration for life is not vengeance.

170 150 I read about a 11 month old who died from head injuries when her little head was repeatedly banged against a staircase while some creep was raping and sodomizing her. You people who don't believe in the DP are immoral. You value his life over the lives of the innocent.


wow, lay off the meds there moi

171 I'd like to see it applied to certain rape convictions, as well.

You should be more specific when making that argument.

Some countries already apply the death penalty for rape, unfortunately, it is more often applied to the victim.

172 BTW, I disagree with the noble sounding sentiment that I'd rather a 100 guilty go free to protect 1 innocent.

For me, it's 5.7, tops.

173 I think the real lesson is that idiots and lawyers can strip us of useful tools because they disapprove of *one* of the uses for that tool.

Stock up on steak knives.

174 War and the death penalty are the State acting in defense of its citizens. This is the only reason they are moral.

And this only holds water if you are absolutely certain the criminal actually committed the crime for which he was accused.  A 99.99999% success rate isn't good enough, because that 0.00001% means that an innocent person was executed.

175 Does Utah still pin a paper plate to your chest and line up a bunch of guards with .30 rifles?

176 A 99.99999% success rate isn't good enough, because that 0.00001% means that an innocent person was executed.

Meh.  Shit happens.  Thousands of people die every year to no point or purpose.  Sure, it sucks if its you or yours, but the sentiment is hogwash.  We don't make that call in any other facet of life.

177 and yeah I don't agree with the DP = vengenace rationale either

sure if someone did something horrible to my sister, I'd want to personally tear the perp's eyes out myself and do it slowly and painfully

but that doesn't mean it should be the law of the land

178

Great philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas disagree with you. War and the death penalty are the State acting in defense of its citizens. This is the only reason they are moral.

Posted by: kidney at January 22, 2011 01:11 PM (ENRGu)

I am not justifying war. 

How is a man locked up for life not the state protecting its citizens?  Why do they have to be put to death to protect society? 

179 Chemjeff,
I disagree with the success rate argument. Apply it to war and you could never have one. Similarly, your argument  ignores the deaths of innocents at the hands of the convicted. How many gaurds and other inmates are killed at the hand of those who could have been executed?

180 Meh.  Shit happens.  Thousands of people die every year to no point or purpose.  Sure, it sucks if its you or yours, but the sentiment is hogwash.  We don't make that call in any other facet of life.

well, that is just too nihilist for me.  I'm a tad more optimistic.  Besides I don't want to be that 0.00001%.

181 We have seen horrible examples when the state has power over life and death. We have been watching this for quite a while.

182 Besides I don't want to be that 0.00001%.

Truth.  But if we carried that logic to any other facet, air travel and automobiles would be outlawed as a moral necessity.  Everything is a trade off.

183 >>And this only holds water if you are absolutely certain the criminal actually committed the crime for which he was accused. A 99.99999% success rate isn't good enough, because that 0.00001% means that an innocent person was executed. Innocent people are killed in war every day. I'd venture to guess that the US military has killed a good deal more innocents than have been executed erroneously by the US. This falls into the category of shit happens.

184 Besides I don't want to be that 0.00001%.

Hey, and doesn't a recidivist murderer blow that calculus out?  If we parole a bank robber, and he goes on to kill someone later, aren't we then culpable?

This almost argues that every crime should be a life sentence.

185 How is a man locked up for life not the state protecting its citizens?  Why do they have to be put to death to protect society? 
1-Someone must gaurd the convict and thus be vulnerable to attack.

2- Others will be housed with the convict and also be vulnerable.

3- People escape.

4- Life without parole seems to have little deterrent effect.(to be fair the current application of the death penalty has little as well)

186 The Catholic Church

Aquinas is both a Saint and a Doctor of The Church.

187

Ok then, if the death penalty is a big no-no, I support my hippie friend's alternative (she was dead set against the death penalty for ideological reasons): toss murders, rapists, and pedophiles (and by these I mean they pass the Whoopi standard of murder-murder) into something akin to the Black Hole of Calcutta for the rest of their lives.  Entire life spent in pitch black pit, sweltering in summer, freezing in winter, where they have to fight off the rats for their crusts of bread and tepid water.

She was a hippie, and opposed to the death penalty, but she also worked for a children's advocacy group, specializing in prosecuting and tracking sex offenders.  You could say she was raped by reality (personally I always thought she was an in the closet conservative).

188 I disagree with the success rate argument. Apply it to war and you could never have one.

well, I don't apply it to war.

First, in war, the "collateral damage" is (hopefully!) members of the other side.  Not our citizens.  No legal obligation to protect them.

Second, we tolerate behavior in war that we would not tolerate in peacetime because the stakes are so dire.  Ex: rationing.  We tolerate the state telling us how much milk we can buy (infringing on our property rights) because the alternative is to have no property rights at all, if the enemy is victorious.  In peacetime we don't need to make such tradeoffs.  The alternative to not executing a murderer is NOT that more murders will occur - we can imprison for life without parole.

189 Truth.  But if we carried that logic to any other facet, air travel and automobiles would be outlawed as a moral necessity.  Everything is a trade off.

Posted by: toby928™ at January 22, 2011 01:18 PM (S5YRY)

Well, not really - it's my choice whether or not to drive a car or fly on an airplane, knowing the risks involved.  With DP, I'm subjected to the risk of being executed even if I'm innocent, without any real say in the matter.

190 iknowtheleft

OK, I've got one for you -- Joe Citizen, 35-year-old nice guy with a history of nebbishness, is driving along when he is rammed by Simon Sixpack, the DUI-collecting asshole from my previous comment. Because of this, he incurs some reversible brain damage that changes his personality. After three weeks, he wakes up with the mother-and-father-of-all-headaches and finds a pile of bloody clothes in his room -- not all of them his. "My god, what have I done?" says he and goes to turn himself in.

Medics find that brain swelling had been the primary cause of his extended blackout (and headache), and it ended when the swelling reduced. Now that he's getting medical care, the inflammation is rapidly brought under control. During this treatment, however, police put together evidence that he performed three rather brutal killings during his incapacity.

Death penalty, because he's a sick bastard that intentionally stalked and killed people?

191

Timbo, if I understand you, you're saying that capital punishment for committing murder = vengeance = wrong/unacceptable, but that imprisonment as punishment for committing murder = not vengeance = good/acceptable.  Is that an accurate summary?

192 "Mercy, detached from Justice, grows unmerciful."

193 I think I can help.

194 Posted by: C.S Lewis

Nice.  Someone else once said that Justice is like capital, mercy, like interest.  You can't have the latter without the former.

195
Hey, and doesn't a recidivist murderer blow that calculus out?  If we parole a bank robber, and he goes on to kill someone later, aren't we then culpable?

This almost argues that every crime should be a life sentence.

I don't follow.  Personally I'd be fine with doing away with parole altogether, at least for felonies.

196 Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.

197 They could always switch to lead, or hemp, or electrons.

198 Lighter fluid, a match, pay-per-view Some assembly required

199 My solution:  The Exile.  Not just for DP but any serious crime.  Just drop them in an isolated area and drop soon to be out of date food once a month.  Make it a no-fly and a no-come-around island/area.  Have a military base nearby.  Drop a shovel or two and some seeds and some clothes every once in a while.
Maybe Madoff and Manson would become friends. 
Removes my moral dilemma. 

200

206 No, because he has not met the criterion for the recidivist murderer (which I do believe exists, much like the recidivist pedophile -- some people are just habitual in these actions).  Therefore he does not warrant the death penalty because it can be proven that there were circumstances beyond his control that contributed to his murder spree.  There is a high likelihood that he can be rehabilitated.  This applies to many murders committed, and is the reason why the death penalty is considered punishment in extremis.  You have to be an extreme criminal to warrant it.

Now, somebody like Jeffery Dahmer or Mumia probably meet the criterion -- and most cases like this do not usually wind up with an innocent person convicted of the crime.  Most people are not predators, but some are -- and I see no reason to keep them alive.

201 202 The Catholic Church

Aquinas is both a Saint and a Doctor of The Church.

Posted by: kidney at January 22, 2011 01:22 PM (ENRGu)

Catechism of the Catholic Church: the death penalty is possible in cases of extreme gravity. However, the Catechism adds: "If bloodless means [that is, other than killing] are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person" (#2267).

202 I don't follow.  Personally I'd be fine with doing away with parole altogether, at least for felonies.

Posted by: chemjeff at January 22, 2011 01:29 PM (PaSAU)

I don't know about that.  There are felony statutes out there which are traps for the unwary, or criminalize activity you'd otherwise have no idea was unlawful. 

203 I don't follow.

We, as a society, have a far greater chance than 0.00001% of sentencing an innocent to death by releasing any prisoners, ever.

204 ## 35, 42

The costs of trying a death penalty case can be staggering, both in terms of money and sheer manpower.  Depending on the jurisdiction, the cost may be charged to a local prosecutor's office and take a substantial segment of the budget for that office. 

Again depending on the jurisdiction, the cost may be for naught if a jury does not impose the death penalty. 

There has been established a whole legal industry whose point is precisely to make death penalty cases too expensive.

It is too bad, but in some jurisdictions at least the benefit does not nearly outweigh the cost.    

205 29 Gabe I'm with you, I don't favor the death penalty either, but it's mainly from a libertarian viewpoint - I don't trust the state to be accurate enough to know that every single DP verdict is correct and that the state therefore isn't putting an innocent man to death

and I'm also pro-life


My feeling exactly. I've seen several cases here in San Diego where people have been railroaded and then several years later, oh, huh, well looky here, they're innocent after all. Just not worth it to me.

I'm so pro-life in fact I spent a weekend in juvie when I was 17 for protesting outside a clinic. Good times.

206 CA should put executions on PPV.  Would help with that budget imbalance.  Who wouldn't have paid to see Tookie take a dirt nap?

207 I'll do it.

208 Oh, forgot.  The Exile is cheap, too.  So I guess it will have to be done by Republicans.

209 Probably just as well.  Obamacare, it's coming for us all. 

New York wimped out on the death penalty long ago.

210 207

Timbo, if I understand you, you're saying that capital punishment for committing murder = vengeance = wrong/unacceptable, but that imprisonment as punishment for committing murder = not vengeance = good/acceptable.  Is that an accurate summary?

Posted by: Insomniac at January 22, 2011 01:26 PM (OrJBb)

Protecting society by incarceration is not vengeance. Its the morally right thing to do to protect innocent life.

I agree with the Catechism. 

211 I'm so pro-life in fact I spent a weekend in juvie when I was 17 for protesting outside a clinic. Good times.

Posted by: pajama momma at January 22, 2011 01:38 PM (+6OZ7)

Let me guess - the ACLU didn't come riding to rescue you from having your First Amendment rights violated? 

212 "wow, lay off the meds there moi Posted by: chemjeff " It's called facts, asshole. Maybe, if you actually cared about the innocent victims instead of your phony holier than thou pretense, you could deal with reality.

213 My solution:  The Exile.  Not just for DP but any serious crime.  Just drop them in an isolated area and drop soon to be out of date food once a month.  Make it a no-fly and a no-come-around island/area.  Have a military base nearby.  Drop a shovel or two and some seeds and some clothes every once in a while.
Maybe Madoff and Manson would become friends. 
Removes my moral dilemma. 


That's how Australia got started.

214

Protecting society by incarceration is not vengeance. Its the morally right thing to do to protect innocent life.

I agree with the Catechism. 

Posted by: Timbo at January 22, 2011 01:40 PM (ph9vn)

You didn't really answer my question, but let me try another one.  Do you believe that the death penalty for murder is morally wrong?  If so, on what basis is it morally wrong?  I'm not talking about mistakes in the application, I am talking about the thing in itself. 

215 Let me guess - the ACLU didn't come riding to rescue you from having your First Amendment rights violated?

Not a peep, but I did have some lovely people praying outside the jail for me. They wound up letting us out a bit earlier because they said all the praying was upsetting the other girls in juvie with me. hahaha

oh and I'm not allowed near Santa Clara or San Jose, Ca again. yeah, I'm so sad about that.

216 The problem with the death penalty is that the legal system is not perfect.  In fact it is far from it.  A person incarcerated for a crime they didn't commit can be compensated (somewhat), but there is no compensating the dead.

Life in prison without the possibility of parole is sufficient deterrent for anyone with even a shred of rationality.  How would you like to spend 50 years with Bubba? 

Crazy people who kill won't be deterred no matter what you do.

But at the end of the day, despite my philosophical opposition to the death penalty, I don't really CARE that much about it.  The world is not perfect and there are bigger fish to fry than worrying about whether 10% of people convicted of a capital offence are actually innocent. 

217 "Not true. ...Posted by: Timbo " Oh, it is true. You don't care if they murder correctional officers, prison workers, escape and murder and or order murders while inside prison. Some asshole servicing life in prison thought if he got a new trial and no witnesses were left to testify against him, he would walk free. So he order the deaths of 5 people which meant he murdered a total of 7 people. And you value his life over that of his victims. Spit.

218 Posted by: unknown jane at January 22, 2011 01:33 PM (5/yRG)

I suspect that we'd agree more often than disagree -- though, as lawyers are fond of saying, "circumstances alter cases." I'd probably agree with iknowtheleft most of the time, as well -- even though I'm pushing hypotheticals at him.

I believe that there's a time for the death penalty, and there are times when it doesn't apply. One consideration should be the possibility of a cure for an underlying condition -- though "evil" is not such a condition, nor is "repentence" a cure.

219 >>First, in war, the "collateral damage" is (hopefully!) members of the other side. Not our citizens. No legal obligation to protect them. Nope. Let's take a look at our most active areas of operation at the moment, Pakistan and Afghanistan. We are at war with neither country, in theory we are actually allies, but we have killed many innocents over the last 8 years. This happens in every war and we as a society have made the moral justification we are willing to live with it. Yes, they aren't US citizens for the most part but they were humans and they are dead. You can make this argument again and again but it all boils down to the simple fact that we as a society are comfortable or at least willing to tolerate the deaths of innocents at our hands in war but many aren't when it's an individual act. If we as a society were willing to tolerate your .000001% threshold in cases of war we would all be dead because nobody would fear us. If people aren't afraid to kill because they know the worst that can happen is prison we get the crime rate we deserve.

220 Timbo-
The Church's stance on death penalty is that it should be done with great care and introspection. One is not required to be anti-death penalty to be a Catholic in good standing. The Catechism is the cliff notes of Catholic Doctrine. Aquinas is in the unabridged text. So is John Paul II who was almost absolutist in his opposition.

I lean toward Aquinas while taking John Paul very seriously.

221

227 I think the operative statement in that little vignette is "My God, what have I done?".  There are criminals, even murderers, who have made that statement (or something similar) -- Aquinas would say that they recognize the sin they committed and are open to repentance leading to possible salvation.  It was not for people like this that the death penalty was created.

It was created for the people who do not say such a thing, who feel no sin in their actions and for whom repentance will not happen.

222 oh and I'm not allowed near Santa Clara or San Jose, Ca again. yeah, I'm so sad about that.

Posted by: pajama momma at January 22, 2011 01:44 PM (+6OZ7)

Ha! I live in Santa Clara -- the one on the Alameda, right?

223   233 Let me guess - the ACLU didn't come riding to rescue you from having your First Amendment rights violated?

Not a peep, but I did have some lovely people praying outside the jail for me. They wound up letting us out a bit earlier because they said all the praying was upsetting the other girls in juvie with me. hahaha

oh and I'm not allowed near Santa Clara or San Jose, Ca again. yeah, I'm so sad about that.

Posted by: pajama momma at January 22, 2011 01:44 PM (+6OZ7)

You are now my hero, uh, heroine.  I've been in abortion clinic protests of various sorts in years past, but never was arrested.  How is it that you're banned from Santa Clara and San Jose, if you don't mind me asking?

224 We, as a society, have a far greater chance than 0.00001% of sentencing an innocent to death by releasing any prisoners, ever.

oh. Well then -
1. I'm okay with stricter parole standards as I mentioned.
2. The difference is between what individuals choose to do, and what the state chooses to do.  If a felon is paroled, it is the felon's choice whether or not to commit another crime.  So in that sense, if a paroled felon murders someone, it's not equivalent to the state "sentencing an innocent to death".  Now of course there are issues of due diligence when it comes to the parole process itself.  But in the end it's an apples-and-oranges comparison.

225

You didn't really answer my question, but let me try another one.  Do you believe that the death penalty for murder is morally wrong?  If so, on what basis is it morally wrong?  I'm not talking about mistakes in the application, I am talking about the thing in itself. 

Posted by: Insomniac at January 22, 2011 01:43 PM (OrJBb)

Thou shalt not kill.

Yes, morally wrong no matter who does it.

226 Posted by: moi at January 22, 2011 01:42 PM (Ez4Ql)

Oh STFU already.  If you can't have a calm reasoned discussion about the death penalty without your hyperventilating emotions getting in the way, then you shouldn't get out of bed in the morning lest the sting of cold water on your face causes you to bawl uncontrollably and collapse into a pile of emotional goo.

227 Oh, it is true. You don't care if they murder correctional officers, prison workers, escape and murder and or order murders while inside prison.

Some asshole servicing life in prison thought if he got a new trial and no witnesses were left to testify against him, he would walk free. So he order the deaths of 5 people which meant he murdered a total of 7 people. And you value his life over that of his victims. Spit.

Posted by: moi at January 22, 2011 01:46 PM (Ez4Ql)

Where did you get that? 

Because I think murder is wrong in all forms.. I am for the criminal?

228 Re:  The Exile.  Hey.  Install cameras and make it into a reality show.
On a roll here.

229 Timbo

Thou shalt not kill is mistranslated from the Hebrew. The
Commandment is Thou shalt not do murder. Murder being an unjust killing. Under your interpretations neither war nor self defense is allowable.

230 That's how Australia got started.

Who knows-might even have their own tennis tournament in a few years.
Now that is rehab!

231 If we as a society were willing to tolerate your .000001% threshold in cases of war we would all be dead because nobody would fear us.

But we don't, and I'm okay with that.  The ethics of war and the ethics of criminal prosecution are two different beasts as far as I'm concerned.

232 The Commandment is Thou shalt not do murder.

That's what I always thought.  Especially when shortly thereafter the Hebrews are commanded to leave no mother's sons alive, or in the original translation, slay all  who piss upon the wall.

233 239

227 I think the operative statement in that little vignette is "My God, what have I done?".  There are criminals, even murderers, who have made that statement (or something similar) -- Aquinas would say that they recognize the sin they committed and are open to repentance leading to possible salvation.  It was not for people like this that the death penalty was created.

It was created for the people who do not say such a thing, who feel no sin in their actions and for whom repentance will not happen.

Posted by: unknown jane at January 22, 2011 01:47 PM (5/yRG)

I threw that in there as a red herring. I don't see anything in Joe that is sinful, needs repentence, or should even be prosecuted. He was minding his own business when someone imposed control over his brain (though indirectly) and the "him" that is Joe didn't participate in the murders.

I'm starting to get a little worried by iknowtheleft, though -- "kill them all and let God sort them out" sounds a bit dangerous.

234 Timbo-
The Church's stance on death penalty is that it should be done with great care and introspection. One is not required to be anti-death penalty to be a Catholic in good standing. The Catechism is the cliff notes of Catholic Doctrine. Aquinas is in the unabridged text. So is John Paul II who was almost absolutist in his opposition.

I lean toward Aquinas while taking John Paul very seriously.

Posted by: kidney at January 22, 2011 01:47 PM (ENRGu) 

The Catholic church is clear...

You can not pick and chose your beliefs... If you are Catholic.. here is the stance:

Catechism of the Catholic Church: the death penalty is possible in cases of extreme gravity. However, the Catechism adds: "If bloodless means [that is, other than killing] are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person" (#2267).

235

Anybody mention auto erotic asphyxiation (aka a David Carradine or INXS singer)?

Go out with a bang!

 

 

 

And a smile!!!

236 If bloodless means [that is, other than killing] are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means

If

237 Thou shalt not kill is mistranslated from the Hebrew. The
Commandment is Thou shalt not do murder. Murder being an unjust killing. Under your interpretations neither war nor self defense is allowable.

Posted by: kidney at January 22, 2011 01:55 PM (ENRGu)

We arent talking about war.

Life in prison protects innocent society.  The death penalty isnt needed to protect society.

238 Timbo, #103 and subsequent:

"I couldnt do it [execute by firing squad, or I assume by any method]... no matter who it was.  I would also wonder who is the person who would volunteer for that."

I would.  Not proud of that, but not ashamed.

My standard for the death penalty is this: Would I kill the bastard myself, if his victim were someone I loved?  If yes, then he gets the death penalty.  I don't care about deterrence, in fact I find that the morally questionable argument.  (Roughly: Well, in the abstract he doesn't deserve to die, but if it stops someone else from committing murder, let's go ahead.)  No: he either deserves it or he doesn't.  And you're damn right vengeance figures into this.

If I decide he deserves it, then I'd have to be willing to carry it out myself.  I mean, I can't argue it's right, but I'm too morally fine a person to do it.

Look, if you can stand it, Google "Connecticut home invasion," and read.  If you honestly think it's morally wrong to kill the men who did this, then I commend you on the purity of your principles, but you and I will never see eye to eye.  I've read a lot about genocide, mass murder, atrocities, and still I was shocked that people could be this cruel for the sheer fun and incidental profit of it.  As far as I'm concerned they deserve to die and the world is a better place, by a small but morally important margin, without them.

Side note: someone mentioned the "life without parole is so much harsher" argument.  If so, why does the lawyer for the condemned almost always try so damn hard for it instead of death?

239 Life in prison protects innocent society.

Unless they escape.  Or kill someone in prison.

240 >>But we don't, and I'm okay with that. The ethics of war and the ethics of criminal prosecution are two different beasts as far as I'm concerned. OK, I don't agree that the ethics of war are as fundamentally different as you do but we're not likely to change each other's minds.

241 >>Thou shalt not kill. >>Yes, morally wrong no matter who does it. I'm not sure if I understood you before, are you saying that killing during a war is also morally wrong?

242 OK, I don't agree that the ethics of war are as fundamentally different as you do but we're not likely to change each other's minds.

Well no, but it's fun to chat about it.   If and when we have the national AoSHQ meetup, I'll still buy you a beer.

243 he Catholic church is clear...
You can not pick and chose your beliefs... If you are Catholic.. here is the stance:

The Church is in fact clear- in that there is room for disagreement on this issue. You need to do some reading beyond the Catechism.

244

If not for the death penalty, seems to me, there would be no catholic theology to argue over. Am I wrong?

 

 

245 I do think, though, that many underestimate the destabilizing effect when people get the notion that society,which was handed over certain essential powers and responsibilities, fails to carry them out in anything close to a common sense and reasonable way.

I absolutely concur. Government "Justice", randomly applied, is actually worse than a "Wild West" lack of government "justice". It's banditry by any other name.

246 If

Posted by: toby928™ goes laconic at January 22, 2011 02:02 PM (S5YRY)

Thats a big IF.  

You can search all you want for that big IF..   if we run out of prisons.. if we run out of every single last option. 

If you dont agree with the premise that all human life is sacred... no matter how hard that is to take in when it comes to a sick murderer.. you wont understand the mercy of God.

Its not like I came to this lightly.  Its easy to say off with their heads.  The hard part is reconciling those thoughts with the bigger picture of faith in what God thinks of our actions.

247 I'm not sure if I understood you before, are you saying that killing during a war is also morally wrong?

Posted by: JackStraw at January 22, 2011 02:10 PM (TMB3S)

We arent talking about war. We are talking about the death penalty.

248 Here is the Catholic Church stance on war.. it must be "a just' war. meeting these 4 conditions.
the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

there must be serious prospects of success;

the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.

These are hard conditions to fulfill; the Church teaches that war should always be the last resort.

249 If you dont agree with the premise that all human life is sacred... no matter how hard that is to take in when it comes to a sick murderer.. you wont understand the mercy of God.

That's an even larger if and purely an assertion.   If you don't understand that life is also not boundless, you will inflict misery on many.  Each person must answer to God for his deeds, and God didn't give the sword to the prince for nought.

250 >>We arent talking about war. We are talking about the death penalty. No we aren't, we are talking about taking a life. You state repeatedly that taking a life under any circumstances is morally wrong and you claim that you understand God so well you know this to be true. You can't have it both ways. If killing under any circumstances is wrong according to God then you can't be in favor of killing during war, right?

251 there must be serious prospects of success

That's an odd condition if I may say so.

252 I don't understand why lethal injection is any more humane than a rifle bullet to the back of the head.  You can make arguments about whether or not putting someone to death is justified, but surely a quick, painless death for the condemned is within our capabilities?

253 251 We could argue that Joe, while not a very sinful man (everyone is sinful though -- nobody is an angel in this world), recognizes the enormity of the sin of his acts.  We could argue this from the DUI who kills somebody -- they are not necessarily guilty in the sense of wilfully wishing death (they went out to get drunk or just party, killing someone was most definitely not in their plans nor would it be likely that during sober moments would they be anything but appalled by that notion), but through circumstance they deal it out.  The one who recognizes the enormity of the accidental sin they have committed through circumstance and thus willing to take the responsibility for that accidental sin is open to redemption.

254

Yes, morally wrong no matter who does it.

Posted by: Timbo at January 22, 2011 01:50 PM (ph9vn)

Well, here's the thing.  If you believe the Bible, and the Old Testament in particular, God clearly instituted capital punishment for murder.  If capital punishment for murder is morally wrong, then God Himself was/is morally wrong in Genesis 9:

And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed;

for in the image of God

has God made man.

255 I don't understand why lethal injection is any more humane than a rifle bullet to the back of the head.  You can make arguments about whether or not putting someone to death is justified, but surely a quick, painless death for the condemned is within our capabilities?

Posted by: Ace's liver at January 22, 2011 02:24 PM (QgI7g)

Why yes, yes it is.   And stop calling me Shirley.

256 Timbo, here is some Catechism you didn't cite-

Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

257 That's true, but I was going in a different direction.  A victim has the right to know that the criminal is being punished accordingly.  When the government takes over the task of meting out punishment, and then reduces those punishments so that the average person thinks they are insufficient, given the crimes, then society is destabilized.

I do think that it's problematic that government should right every wrong, however. If I don't immediately clear the sidewalk when my tree's leaves fall on it, then someone walking by could slip, possibly into the path of an oncoming car, and be killed. A horrible wrong and a great loss, but not something that government needs to set right.

Now if I'd been out late at night smearing grease on the sidewalk and hiding it with leaves....same loss, different amount of guilt. It's not the victim's loss that makes the determination, though -- it's the perpetrator's contribution. And, I'd argue, that someone deranged enough to intentionally create a dangerous situation with intent to harm should be punished -- even if no actual harm results.

There's a reason that criminal cases are titled "the state v. the perp" instead of "the victim v. the perp". The amount of damage to society is the focus, not the victim's injury. And, incidentally, when this is suborned by arbitrary and capricious decisions, that's why inevitable damage to society occurs.

258
The Church is in fact clear- in that there is room for disagreement on this issue. You need to do some reading beyond the Catechism.

Posted by: kidney at January 22, 2011 02:11 PM (ENRGu)

Nope.. I will take the catechism over anything.

Room for debate is not really there.. we have prisons and the means to keep them off the streets.

259 Oregon technically has the death penalty, but there's been people on the list for several decades. Effectively it just never happens because the judges here allow a stay for any reason whatsoever.

260 if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Posted by: kidney at January 22, 2011 02:29 PM (ENRGu)

Its not the only way to protect human life.

261 Room for debate is not really there.. we have prisons and the means to keep them off the streets.

On whose hands is the blood of the murdered prison guard or shanked petty criminal inmate?

262
On whose hands is the blood of the murdered prison guard or shanked petty criminal inmate?
Posted by: toby928™ at January 22, 2011 02:36 PM (S5YRY

the murderer.

263 Those who seek out every possible but the poor guy got hit by a lightening bolt that temporarily fried his neurons, causing a panic attack, resulting in him running naked through the streets, causing a tractor-trailer to slide out of control and strike a merry-go-round full of handicapped children experiencing their last wish before they died of cancer scenario are completely full of horseshit.

If the question of justice were black and white it would be written, very concisely, and those writings would be turned to without the necessity of a judge or jury.

This slippery slope crap is for the birds.

264 I'm going to guess that Timbo is still in his twenties.

265 we have prisons and the means to keep them off the streets.

You conveniently ignore the problems that have been stated with prisons. But that's cool.
We will just not agree.

266 Ask your doctor if sodium thiopental is right for you.

267 Its not the only way to protect human life.

Recidivism rate of the executed:  0%   Your method, not so effective.

268 >>Room for debate is not really there.. we have prisons and the means to keep them off the streets. I guess you are unaware that in many places our prisons are so overcrowded and state finances so broken that prisoners are being released early. In fact, we have passed the point where we have the "means" to effectively deal with a growing prison population. Means does not just refer to bricks and mortar, it refers to the financial ability and desire of the people to pay for the type of punishment you are advocating. So that part of your catechism is in pretty serious jeopardy too. The debate continues.

269 Fun discussion btw, but I have a lawn mower to fix and steaks to cook.

See you morons later.

270 So then, what about the perpetration of violence in prisons? Arguments such as those above which argue that imprisonment is sufficient for the most violent amongst us are like looking into an infinity mirror...it could go on and on and on...

I'm sure that, when pressed, you might also argue against the cruel and unusual punishment that is incarceration.

Next step would be to argue that there should be levels of prisons to segregate the least violent. Well, of course, there are; maximum, medium and minimum. So, then you might argue that the least violent amongst the less violent should be segregated for their own safety. Then you might suggest that the least violent amongst the least violent in that group should be segregate into their own group. And on and on and on...

Wait! Why don't we just love the violence and hate out of them?! Say a prayer for the perpetrator because the victim is already beyond prayer.

271 285 I'm going to guess that Timbo is still in his twenties.

Posted by: jmflynny at January 22, 2011 02:38 PM (piMMO)

Nope 42.

Like I said.. didnt come to this lightly.  I am a Catholic... this was a big discussion with my Priest.

Human life is sacred.. its not ours to take.

Not easy to do when looking at a murderer...

272 6 “ Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:1-7:29) focus on mercy, reconciliation and redemption.,

by man shall his blood be shed;

for in the image of God

has God made man.

Posted by: Insomniac at January 22, 2011 02:25 PM (OrJBb)

Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:1-7:29 focus on mercy, reconciliation and redemption.

I am a Christian because of the New testament.. not the old.  The words of Jesus are gospel.. and to me, trump Genesis.

273 "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't stop murders from happening. DP and true life imprisonment do keep repeat offenses from occurring. I do feel a greater obligation to protect the innocent than those who choose to do evil.

274 How is it that you're banned from Santa Clara and San Jose, if you don't mind me asking?

ooops sorry. Have 3 kids over playing with my 4 kids. Can you say chaos?
Anyhoo, I dunno why I'm not allowed there. The judge said he'd release me, but that I wasn't allowed to ever go to those two places again. The reason they were able to arrest me is because I was "trespassing".

I'm sure I could go there now because this was a juvenile offense and (I think) it's a sealed record?

And I don't know whether it was the one on Alameda. I crack up because I have the newspaper article about it somewhere in my archives, but it doesn't mention me or the other two kids names' because we were minors. haha

275 How about give 'em a computer and a broadband connection and let 'em get bored to death by the comments on LGF?

276 Besides, three rifle bullets to the head wouldn't cause three holes, it would cause an explosion-

277 Why can't illegals make the sodium thio that Americans won't?

278

You should be more specific when making that argument.

Repeat Rapists.  Death.

Acts of Violent Rape / Sodomy.  Death

 

279

Ha ha

I slept 'til noon while you guys were busy posting and now I can opine with impunity

280

I slept 'til noon

Welcome to the moron lifestyle.  Help yourself to some Hobo Meat.

281 Lead, it's the new lethal drug.

282

Repeat Rapists.  Death.

Acts of Violent Rape / Sodomy.  Death

I see you allow for no room for humor when it comes to this subject.

283 Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:1-7:29 focus on mercy, reconciliation and redemption.

I am a Christian because of the New testament.. not the old.  The words of Jesus are gospel.. and to me, trump Genesis.
Posted by: Timbo

If Jesus were against capital punishment he would not have allowed his own death or the deaths that occurred at the hand of the state during his time, or any other time for that matter.

Regarding taxes and extending that pincipal to general administration of justitice, Jesus had words like "give on to Ceasar..."

The state has the duty and obligation to execute those who commit capital offenses. When the state falls down in its duty, as ours has, you get crazy shit like happens in liberal states.

284 I'm against the death penalty because the 138 people exonerated from death row since 1970 would have been a lot tougher to let out of jail if they were dead.  I don't have a problem in principle with killing people who deserve to die, it's just that our government is pretty inept at deciding who that should be.

285 I'm against the death penalty because the 138 people exonerated from death row since 1970 would have been a lot tougher to let out of jail if they were dead.

The system worked. 

I asked this earlier but no one has brought the knowledge so I'll ask again. 

Are there any credible cases of an innocent person being executed in the last 50 years?

286 Enough with the "exonerated" scam. Exonerated means factually innocent. Very few inmates have been found factually innocent. That stupid list counts anyone who has had their conviction reversed even if they are retried and found guilty or they plead guilty. This is what I mean when I say the thug lovers will constantly lie to achieve what they can't do legislatively. They are worse than fucking leftards.

287 Let me guess -- this is either some union dominated company, or a company headed by a pack of Dems...   Or both... 

288 That whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing probably does piss you off, then.  Proving innocence is an extremely tricky thing, and is why we don't use it as a basis for our legal system.  Anyone who was exonerated may or may not have been guilty, but that's the standard we use, and the standard that should have been used in the initial trial.  "The system works" is hardly comforting to the people who spent 15 years in prison for something they didn't do.  And for the record, none of the 138 were later retried and found guilty.  About 2/3 had the charges dropped and 1/3 were acquitted (roughly).  Read up on the case of Jabbar Collins, and see if you're still willing to lump all of those 138 people as probably guilty anyway.  What happened to him was a travesty.  As far as innocents being executed, Cameron Todd Willingham and Ruben Cantu seem like possibilities.  If caring about that makes me worse than a fucking leftard, I can live with it.

I can't believe that a bunch of people who wouldn't trust government to run health care and doesn't think it should run the post office think that government does a fine job of deciding whom to kill.

289 "The system works" is hardly comforting to the people who spent 15 years in prison for something they didn't do.

Nonetheless, germain to the question of the DP.   They weren't executed falsely.  Had the DP not been available, they would have still done the time because they were found guilty, and the DP was the subject of the discussion.

The question was, Is there a credible case of executing the innocent in the last 50 years? 

I honestly don't know, but would like to.

290 Back from our Saturday hike....

I'm fully aware of that.  But, society is made up of people who understand what the appropriate punishment is for certain crimes, individually, and we understand, together, that anyone who commits such a crime should, individually, suffer that punishment, or something equivalent.  It doesn't matter that I was not the victim of a murder.  I can still expect the state to carry out the appropriate punishment for that act of murder.  Because I need to know that, if I get murdered, the state will mete out the apprpriate response for me.  You cannot deviate too far from the core Western notion of "individual reciprocity as natural fairness" and keep any group of Westerners together.  Not for too long.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at January 22, 2011 02:47 PM (G/MYk)

The "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" thing is a bit too strict for modern society -- although sharia seems quite proud to include it. In modern societies, we control immense energies and resources with more and more flexibility and less and less thought -- so that 16-year-old kids are casually entrusted with two tons of metal at 70 mph, for instance. The possibility of casual damage increases as personal power increases -- thus, the peasantry rarely gave too much thought to the difference between negligence and murder before the existence of power tools.

I think that most people understand this at a visceral level and would hesitate to impose the death penalty for someone who hit a patch of black ice and killed someone; but the victim's family might not be quite so philosophical about the incident. Thus, society imposes a measured response and social pressure leans on victims and their loved ones to bottle up their personal retribution.

I fully agree that this is finely balanced, however -- when out-and-out murder is given a slap on the wrist, it promotes a lawlessness that can be much worse than family feuds and vendetta.

...scenario are completely full of horseshit.

If the question of justice were black and white it would be written, very concisely, and those writings would be turned to without the necessity of a judge or jury.

This slippery slope crap is for the birds.

Posted by: jmflynny at January 22, 2011 02:38 PM (piMMO)

You seem to be arguing here that judges and juries can go beyond black and white judgments, but then you say that slippery slopes are for the birds.

How, then, should those grey areas that judges and juries determine supposed to work out? Each case on an ad-hoc basis?

There should be gradations of culpability, but based on rules and guidelines -- which, as iknowtheleft notes, should not be too lenient for the public to support.....nor, as I argue above, too strict.

291 Hey, thanks for the names Joe R.  I didn't see them originally.

The case of innocence for Cameron Todd Willingham seems really thin,  but the Ruben Cantu case does look bad.  The jury believed the victim and now the victim says he lied, so that might be one.

292

The killers made the choice to kill.

The killers when convicted should get to make another choice, how to die.

1. captured bolt gun.

2. OD of sedatives.

3. thrown off of a high place.

The convicted murderer gets the choice.