Ace of Spades HQ

April 13, 2011

Compare and Contrast on the Debt Ceiling
— Gabriel Malor

The debt ceiling is the next major fight in Washington (assuming that the gimmicky rump FY2011 spending passes) and both parties are now maneuvering. The Republicans say they want structural spending reforms in exchange for voting to raise the debt ceiling. The idea is that if the federal government is going to keep overspending its credit card, it must change its spending habits.

Democrats, on the other hand, say they want a "clean" vote to raise the debt limit, free of "ideology." As far as the Democrats are concerned, overspending is simply not a problem related to the debt ceiling.

Both parties recognize that raising the debt ceiling is a political hot potato. Polls uniformly show Americans opposed to raising it. That's why, back in December, Harry Reid didn't want Democrats to have to make the tough vote alone:

Reid also said that he would like to push off raising the debt ceiling until next year Â— when Republicans control the House, but that he has not discussed the matter yet with his caucus.
Â“Let the Republicans have some buy-in on the debt. TheyÂ’re going to have a majority in the House,Â” said Reid. Â“I donÂ’t think it should be when we have a heavily Democratic Senate, heavily Democratic House and a Democratic president.Â”

Republicans are well-positioned to take major concessions over the debt limit (assuming they actually want some, I'm looking at you Speaker Boehner, dammit). The public is on our side. More importantly, the Democrats are pursuing the same strategy they always do.

Compare and contrast:

"I will not support an increase in the debt ceiling without real and meaningful changes in spending in the short-term and in the long-term. We've got to change the way we spend the people's money. ... The President sends the budget to Capitol Hill that will double the national debt in the next 10 years. And simply expanding the credit card is not the right answer."

""It will be hugely dangerous for the Republican colleagues to play a game of chicken on the debt ceiling. You would see an economic catastrophe if the United States defaulted on its debt."

The first is GOP Rep. Mike Pence, who offers a cogent explanation for what it will take to increase the debt ceiling. The second is Dem Rep. Chris Van Hollen, who simply pushes the panic button.

The Democrats are hoping that they can make enough people afraid that the Republicans will feel pressured. But there's no reason to believe that will happen.

Again, compare and contrast:

"Yes, it would be catastrophic to have the nation default upon its debt. But I think in some respects it presents a false premise. ... We could put America on the path today to spend less. We don't have to default."

"The consequences of not raising the debt ceiling would be Armageddon-like in terms of the economy. We do not need to play chicken with the economy by linking the raising of the debt ceiling to anything."

The first is GOP Rep. Jeb Hensarling. The second is White House press secretary Jay Carney.

There are actually two propositions here:

A. The debt ceiling must be raised or the U.S. will default on its loans, which will have substantial consequences.

B. U.S. government spending is out of control and routinely busts the debt limit, so spending must be curtailed.

Here's why the GOP can win on this: Americans believe both propositions. Look back up at the GOP quotes above. That's an argument that wins. Democrats want to keep these two propositions entirely separate, but they can't explain why (other than the unspoken reason: they want to keep spending money we don't have). So instead of explaining, they simply adopt extreme rhetoric as to the first one, as if that means the second should be ignored.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at 03:41 AM | Comments (67)
Post contains 651 words, total size 4 kb.

1 1st

Posted by: Lurkin'no'mo at April 13, 2011 03:46 AM (6zvrq)

2 And did you see the news? In Barry's budget, he plans to kill as many old people as the repubs! Cowboy poets, children and puppies appear to be toast as well.

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at April 13, 2011 03:46 AM (jx2j9)

3 The "Natural Resource" the democrats are interested in exploiting is the American Tax-payer.

Posted by: StrategicCorporalUSMC at April 13, 2011 03:46 AM (BKcBp)

4 The Democrats are hoping that they can make enough people afraid that the Republicans will feel pressured. But there's no reason to believe that will happen. No, history proves that the GOP cannot be pressured by Dem demagoguery.

Posted by: Speaker Stonewall Boner at April 13, 2011 03:52 AM (62eAJ)

5 Here's my bet - there will be a lot of drama leading up to the debt ceiling fight, lots of high minded talk from Republicans about the seriousness of the debt problem, lots of gutter talk from Democrats about how Republicans hate women, children, and the elderly, an eleventh hour deal where the Republicans claim to have saved the Republic with historic cuts, GOP rubes who will celebrate that the conversation is now changed, and then it will be revealed that it was all a bunch of lies and really the Republicans were just a bunch of roundheels who were really protesting too much. Oh, and PAWLENTY!!

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 03:53 AM (Fw2Gg)

6 If the debt ceiling is always raised it serves no function.

Posted by: Jose at April 13, 2011 03:54 AM (WTNJJ)

7 5- You had me until the Pawlenty part.

Posted by: Mr Diddy Wah Diddy at April 13, 2011 03:55 AM (62eAJ)

8 7 - You mean you don't feel the PAWLENTY excitement?

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 04:02 AM (Fw2Gg)

9 Why the hell is this so hard for Republicans to understand?

We have to live within our means!

Our current path is unsustainable!

DONT! RAISE! THE! DEBT! LIMIT!!!

Posted by: McLovin at April 13, 2011 04:02 AM (j0IcY)

If the debt ceiling is always raised it serves no function.

Yes, that's common sense.

We're in short supply of that here in DC

Posted by: Sean Bannion at April 13, 2011 04:03 AM (sbV1u)

"Both parties recognize that raising the debt ceiling is a political hot potato."

Howz 'bout voting f*cking "NO"?!? Is that the new 'impossible'?

Posted by: Snoop-Diggity-DANG-Dawg at April 13, 2011 04:07 AM (y67bA)

12 And isn't it pathetic and transparent how coordinated the language from those
two Donk Reps. And why can't we play with Chickens?

Posted by: McLovin at April 13, 2011 04:07 AM (j0IcY)

13 If Boehner had the barest scintilla of a wisp of a rumor of a hint of a spine, he'd tell Reid, "You're right. It will be Armageddon if we don't raise the debt ceiling. That's why you're going to give me EVERYTHING I want. It's gonna be the Democrats voting for suicide if you vote against it. Now... KNEEL BEFORE THE BONE!"

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 04:08 AM (W7Ddq)

14 What makes the Democrat's position even remotely tenable is a compliant media and a stupid populace.

I'm not sure how that can be fixed.

Posted by: Nighthawk at April 13, 2011 04:15 AM (OtQXp)

15 The Democrats are hoping that they can make enough people afraid that the Republicans will feel pressured. But there's no reason to believe that will happen.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's funny shit right there.

Posted by: BUTCH at April 13, 2011 04:16 AM (uPUfN)

16 EOJ - but what if the Republicans could possibly be criticized?

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 04:17 AM (Fw2Gg)

17 The debt ceiling will be raised. Yeah, I'm being Capt. Buzzkill, but are the Republicans really going to make a stand here? they didn't on a one year budget, why should they now? It doesn't matter what the argument is. The debt ceiling will get raised. Of course it will. The real question is will we get anything - ANYTHING REAL - from doing so.

Posted by: catmman at April 13, 2011 04:17 AM (DTzwU)

18 Funny how the Dems label doing what they want, with no resistance, as free of ideology.

Posted by: BUTCH at April 13, 2011 04:17 AM (uPUfN)

19 So by saying if we don't raise the debt limit we will default the Dems are admitting we are in a debt spiral. After all they are plainly saying we need to go in more debt to pay the interest on the debt we already have.

Posted by: Dr. Heinz Doofensmirtz at April 13, 2011 04:21 AM (lvaY0)

20 We will keep kicking the can, until it all goes BOOM.
Then all the talking heads will be like wow who could have seen that coming, then the finger pointing will begin so we can figure out who is to blame for all this. Of course none of them will be responsible for any of it.

The American people will go right along believing the lies, and blaming the other guy because their side is not at fault for any of it.
This movie is getting old, same stuff different day, different names different faces but the same lies.

I imagine there are a few in Washington that beleive in the constitution and what it stands for but not enough to make a difference.

Posted by: MarkC at April 13, 2011 04:21 AM (ros+1)

21 The real problem right now is not actually the debt. The House Republicans can and should pass significant deficit reduction this year to go along with raising the debt ceiling. The Senate will probably pass it, and Obama will probably sign it. The problem is what parts of the bill Obama deems to be law. If the bill is signed, Obama will consider the debt ceiling to be raised. If the bill is not signed, the Obama Administration will issue a legal opinion that the debt ceiling is not actually a ceiling, and the US can borrow as much as it wants to. If the bill does get signed, Obama will probably ignore various spending cuts that he doesn't like, and order the money spent anyway. If taxes are not raised as Obama proposes, Obama will raise them by executive order, or creative legal opinion. We are heading for a constitutional showdown this year. Obama's plan to become dictator for life will start to take off with these acts. The question is for the Republicans, the American people, and the military, will they support the Constitution or will they support Obama.

Posted by: Onlooker at April 13, 2011 04:22 AM (9f7qj)

22 EOJ - but what if the Republicans could possibly be criticized? Don't be pokin' my fantasy with your "reality" stick.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 04:22 AM (W7Ddq)

23 Heh - I was just going through my email, and something I sent to Ace on January 22: Hey, I have a bit of a different take on Bachmann and Demint. Probably not surprising as they align more closely to my view of politics than to yours I think, but hear me out. Aside from the fact that going to immediate freakout mode anytime the MSM is telling a story about a conservative that makes one think that the conservative is doing something negative is probably a bad idea...I don't presume that Bachmann's speech on TPE is about a "look at me" action - first of all, the TPE guys laid it on a couple of weeks before Ryan was announced as the response. I am sure that Bachmann wants people who are TPE fans to see her as she is a primary Tea Party kind of candidate - but her position, and related, that of Jim Demint, does not distract from a unified message - it *backstops* that message. Think about it, the GOP isn't known as the stupid party for nothing. It would not surprise me in the least if a John Boehner led House majority were to go into negotiations with a significantly weaker Democrat minority and get totally rolled. If they come to the table with $60B in cuts as their opening bid, they might come out from behind closed doors with a deal to not increase spending by quite as much next year as it might have been, and a promise to hold a vote on some symbolic cut or another before the Labor Day break, and hear them call it a huge victory. Let's just say I am part of the GOP's core constituency, and I don't have a lot of faith in them. Demint's $200B opening bid isn't going to happen - but its an opening bid. And I suspect that Bachmann's speech is in support of Demint's "plan" - and essentially gives the Tea Party Caucus stamp of approval to it. It is perhaps a message to the GOP, but I think it is a stronger message to the Democrats. Yeah, we can play that game, too. I don't think the Tea Party caucus types would balk at the $60B cut, at the end of the day, they would say its a great start and move on. But when negotiating with Democrats, the GOP can take the position, yeah, hey, you are going to have to give enough ground to make my right flank accept this, and if you don't, you are going to have to pitch in enough votes to make it happen. The GOP and Dems KNOW that won't happen - so they are going to have to let the majority win. If the GOP got rolled on it, they would be out in 2012 - there will be 3d party candidates and primaries that make 2010 look like an actual tea party with crumpets. So Bachmann et al. strengthen, not weaken, the mainstream GOP position.

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 04:23 AM (Fw2Gg)

24 So, unfortunately, all the good demeanor types read Bachmann and Demint out as "extremists" (here's a hint - if you are making hte same criticisms of the folks on your team as Chuck Schumer, check your premises) so look what happened. The GOP will lose the House and lose seats in the Senate, and finish 3d to Trump in the race for President.

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 04:27 AM (Fw2Gg)

25 14 If Boehner had the barest scintilla of a wisp of a rumor of a hint of a spine, he'd tell Reid, "You're right. It will be Armageddon if we don't raise the debt ceiling. That's why you're going to give me EVERYTHING I want. It's gonna be the Democrats voting for suicide if you vote against it.

Now... KNEEL BEFORE THE BONE!"

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 08:08 AM (W7Ddq)

That's it. We get some dark beige pancake makeup, and a nice suit, and we place Jeff in Boehner's office.

How are you at impressions?

Posted by: not the droid you seek at April 13, 2011 04:37 AM (zQTMd)

26 And if it gives an excuse to just one hot chick to get naked, won't it have been worth it?

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at April 13, 2011 04:42 AM (jx2j9)

27 Has a debt ceiling ever been lowered?

Posted by: Case at April 13, 2011 04:43 AM (0K+Kw)

28 The political problem is again, no debt ceiling raise- no paycheck for the troops. The pubs need to pass the ceiling but delink debt cash from troop pay and SSN checks. Maybe raise the ceiling in small chunks, but say no paying SSN or troops out of debt, they get aid first.

Posted by: Jean at April 13, 2011 04:46 AM (as1kU)

29 I'm pretty confident about saying that before Obama takes America down, he will try to make certain Israel is destroyed first.

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at April 13, 2011 04:46 AM (jx2j9)

Yes, I like this Kneel Before the Boner stuff. Empire of Jeff, have you ever been to Washington DC?

Posted by: Speaker Stonewall Boner at April 13, 2011 04:47 AM (K/USr)

31 The political problem is that the GOP are pussies.

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 04:48 AM (Fw2Gg)

32 blaster- Most of the voters are pussies as well.

Posted by: Jean at April 13, 2011 04:52 AM (as1kU)

33 The communists have now reached the point where majority congressional votes mean absolutely nothing, as per this bitch. And O'Dipshit is ignoring the courts. So they really don't give a fuck what they promise to do, they're going to do what they want and look right at the spineless prick Repubs and ask them just what the fuck they're going to do about wanton power.

Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at April 13, 2011 04:55 AM (MPtFW)

There really should be no discussion beyond the moral imperative that deficit spending has to immediately cease.

We are inside the beginnings of systemic failure.

Posted by: journolist at April 13, 2011 04:56 AM (iHfo1)

35 Hey, since we are going to raise the debt ceiling, shouldn't we be doing more to help the rebels in Labia?

Posted by: neo con con at April 13, 2011 04:58 AM (K/USr)

Democrats, on the other hand, say they want a "clean" vote to raise the debt limit, free of "ideology."

Raising the debt limit IS their ideology at this point. What else does the party even stand for?

Posted by: Bram at April 13, 2011 04:58 AM (K5g5u)

37 Jean unfortunately you are right. Shouldn't Monty be serving up a steaming pile of DOOM about now?

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 05:04 AM (Fw2Gg)

38 If Boehner had the barest scintilla of a wisp of a rumor of a hint of a spine...
Posted by: Empire of Jeff

John Boehner (R. Onychophora)

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at April 13, 2011 05:04 AM (UB58p)

"And tonight's trivia: name the speaker.

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising AmericaÂ’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government canÂ’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our GovernmentÂ’s reckless fiscal policies. Â… Increasing AmericaÂ’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that Â‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

LINK

Posted by: curious at April 13, 2011 05:07 AM (k1rwm)

40 And tonight's trivia: name the speaker.

barak obama, before he became president and discovered the federal credit card.

Posted by: Deathknyte at April 13, 2011 05:09 AM (1yOtV)

41 curious, he misspoke. He meant to say "Present."

Posted by: blaster at April 13, 2011 05:09 AM (Fw2Gg)

WASHINGTON Â– President Barack Obama, two years into a presidency that increased spending to prime a weak economy, is turning his attention to the nation's crushing debt and trying to counter a Republican anti-deficit plan with a framework of his own that tackles politically sensitive health care programs while also increasing taxes.

Comrades, Barry only spent like a leftist politician to "prime" the economy and after the huge success that was he will smite the debt and the EVIL Republicans. So says the Daily Worker AP

The White House wouldn't offer details of the president's approach ahead of the speech.

No details from Barry. I'm shocked..

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 13, 2011 05:15 AM (1Jaio)

43 The four things Obama will advise today:

(1) Keep domestic spending low
(2) Cut defense spending
(3) Reform Medicare and Medicaid
(4) Reform the tax code

I'm guessing #1 happens by way of #2, reforming entitlements through emphasizing the already-enacted changes in ObamaCare, and reforming the tax code to steal from those in the middle and upper-class tax brackets.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 13, 2011 05:17 AM (uVLrI)

44 As far as the Democrats are concerned, overspending is simply not a problem related to the debt ceiling.

Leave it to liberals to not realize that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 5. Of course overspending and the debt ceiling are linked, you freaking dolts!

This sentiment presupposes that the Dems are ignorant of their actions' consequences though. However, I think most, if not all of them, know raising the debt ceiling will "allow" for greater spending and still they don't fucking care. All they want is political power, even if it leads to their countries' financial ruin.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at April 13, 2011 05:18 AM (9hSKh)

#41, heh.

He was against raising the debt ceiling before he was for it.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at April 13, 2011 05:18 AM (WvXvd)

46 We have to burn down the country to save it. Default. Collapse. Chaos.

Posted by: Evil libertarian at April 13, 2011 05:19 AM (XV/Eq)

47 Prediction: the Debt Ceiling will be raised in exchange for stupid procedural votes nobody will pay any attention to.

Boehner is not willing to risk a shutdown or a confrontation. Everyone knows this. Barry and Reid have no need to negotiate with him.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 13, 2011 05:21 AM (TpXEI)

48 So, how much is the debt ceiling going to be increased? I'd guess around 2.5 trillion so they won't have to revisit it during an election year. They might throw in a "spending reform" fig leaf to keep the rubes calm.

Posted by: Heorot at April 13, 2011 05:23 AM (Nq/UF)

49 This Country will hit the wall. The only unknown is at what speed. Right now it looks like at least 100 mph. If we are lucky it will be 50 or 60 mph. Slower than that is impossible now.

Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at April 13, 2011 05:33 AM (dT+/n)

50 51- I've tried to explain to people hyperinflation leads to starvation. While default only leads to urban riots.

Posted by: Evil libertarian at April 13, 2011 05:40 AM (XV/Eq)

51 Somehow I have no confidence that the Republicans will get anything meaningful on the debt ceiling debate. They will "compromise" yet again and get:

1) A new "rule change" that allows congress to spend all it wants as long as the "pinky swear" with crossed fingers behind their back

2) An up or down vote on some social issue in the Senate where the combination of communists and RINOs will assure the vote is over before it starts

3) And lets not forget the all important handful of magic beans that will avert any crisis somewhere down the road.

4) The Dems will get all that they want and possibly even a tax increase.

After that, they will declare victory and send out letters wanting more donations.

Posted by: Vic at April 13, 2011 05:46 AM (M9Ie6)

52 The only unknown is at what speed.

Ahead, warp 7!

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at April 13, 2011 05:48 AM (GBXon)

53 A. The debt ceiling must be raised or the U.S. will default on its loans, which will have substantial consequences.

This proposition is FALSE.

The debt ceiling doesn't have to pay the loans (and what good does taking out more loans to pay existing loans do).

The FIRST thing that should be paid from federal income is debt service. There is no need to raise the ceiling to do this.

This is a straw man argument; don't let them run with it.

Posted by: blindside at April 13, 2011 05:54 AM (x7g7t)

54 The debt limit will be raised, but we will shave another 2 billion off the high speed rail project. Which will just get added back in next year.

Posted by: Reality Man at April 13, 2011 05:57 AM (9AQdP)

55 If I were a country holding a lot of US debit I'd be worried, and looking to get out as quietly as possible. The administration and congressional democrats have basically declared that bondholders are dead last on the payment priority list.

Posted by: Heorot at April 13, 2011 05:58 AM (Nq/UF)

56 The Federal Government now is a full-grown T-Rex. It was cute when it hatched.

Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at April 13, 2011 06:01 AM (dT+/n)

57 Write your congress critter and offer them a cash money bribe if they vote to REDUCE the debt ceiling.

Posted by: Snorting the NPR butt hash so you won't have to at April 13, 2011 06:01 AM (F/4zf)

58 Nighthawk@15 "What makes the Democrat's position even remotely tenable is a compliant media and a stupid populace. "I'm not sure how that can be fixed." Please see: Evil libertarian@53 "I've tried to explain to people hyperinflation leads to starvation. While default only leads to urban riots." Then, look at the last cartogram on this page: http://tinyurl.com/5wdwop If the world's going to end, let's at least get some lemonade out of it.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at April 13, 2011 06:03 AM (Pzf4N)

The Republicans are wrong on this. We don't have to play chicken with our economy.

(A little help, please: I tuned in to NPR a little late this morning. Though I'm sure we shouldn't play chicken with our economy, I missed the analogy. It is the head-on-collision game where one driver swers away, or does it have something to do with an image of beastiality?)

Posted by: WaterCow at April 13, 2011 06:13 AM (JuKNT)

60 I think the best shot we have right now is to allow the Dems to have everything they want. This will hasten the collapse of the Federal government, which in my view is the best possible outcome. Any little concession that the conservatives or Repubs get right now will just be used by the Dems when the collapse comes. The Dems will just say "we tried it the Repubs way and looked what happened". As Geoff and Monty said Ryan's plan is necessary but not sufficient. So even if the Repubs got everything they ask for we will still face collapse, except it will be at the hands of the Repubs and not the Democrats. Its time to take the blinders off and realize there is no realistic political solution to the problem.

Posted by: Dr. Heinz Doofensmirtz at April 13, 2011 06:21 AM (lvaY0)

"Here's why the GOP can win on this"

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ROFLMAO!!!!!eleventy!!!!!!

The GOP standing up and doing the right thing and maybe taking the bullet.... yeah, sure, any day now.... [oh stop, please, my sides hurt too much laughing at that]

Posted by: chuck in st paul at April 13, 2011 06:37 AM (EhYdw)

62 60--I'm stealin that

Posted by: Speaker Cryin John at April 13, 2011 07:19 AM (K/USr)

No the Army of the Potomac cannot win. McClellan will not fight.

If shutdown is not a risk, is not a live option, there will be no spending cuts.

Posted by: gary gulrud at April 13, 2011 07:22 AM (/g2vP)

64 Harry Reid, Study in Courage.

Posted by: Cooter at April 13, 2011 07:44 AM (aK79B)

65 When Beck starts to make sense about Reid leaving "under God" out when he said the pledge, well then, you have to decided are you going to ignore what he says?

Posted by: curious at April 13, 2011 07:52 AM (k1rwm)

66 evening dresses evening dresses uk designer evening dresses long evening dresses plus size evening dresses cheap evening dresses

Posted by: hare at April 13, 2011 08:28 PM (UTbqL)

I'm gonna call VISA and tell them I need my limit raised so I can take a $2000 cash advance.

I know itr will work when I tell them I need the money to pay my bill for the next 5 months

Posted by: steve at April 14, 2011 08:06 AM (2iVD6)

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