1
finally, a gay shark thread!

2
Why does Andy hate black people pizza makers?

3 Pizza Man FAIL - Herman Cain is full of shit

4 Seriously, who is voting for this clown?

5 What Cain is guilty of, in a big way, is not fully explaining the details of the plan. That would cut too hard against the simple "9-9-9" soundbite, I guess.

Cain approaches politics like he does pizza.  IOW, keep the message absolutely simple, so that all the boneheads out there can follow it in between thinking about TV and sex.  It works for pizza, and probably for much of the electorate, but its weakness is that the game is already mostly decided by the early, politically obsessive types (us), so I'm not sure it will work for him. 

6 I don't think there's a single person in America who thinks the tax system should stay exactly like it is. This might not be my first priority, but it really is a better system than we have right now and people freaking out and attacking it just confuse the heck out of me.

Good to see the leftie trolls here posting their Cain hate though. He must be making them pretty nervous.

7
I always knew Andy was a lefty troll.

8 The problem with his plan are the same problems the fair tax has. It keep a lot of the old system that makes it so damn bad. Once you start giving exceptions the door is open and it will only get worse. On top of that, it is crap for almost all middle income people and absolute shit for retired people.

And the worse thing for everyone is that it gives congress a new tax to screw with.

9 Refusing to pay taxes in Opportunity Zones will be illegal, but every family will have to decide for themselves if they'll pay or not.

10 sorry early ot:  Can we get the f out of there?  prez obassackwards did it wrong again, not surprising, should have secured iraq and left afgan.

Afghanistan would support Pakistan in case of military conflict between Pakistan and the United States, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said in an interview to a private Pakistani TV channel broadcast on Saturday.  Rueters

11 This whole zoning BS will not fly. Who's picking the winners and losers? Anyhow who supports this is just plain stupid.

12 >> it really is a better system than we have right now That's a matter of opinion. I really, really don't think we should give the feds a national sales tax that isn't coupled with a repeal of the 16th amendment.

13
Calling for the immediate withdrawal in Afghanistan would be a HUGE winner for the GOP.

But they won't do it because that would be unpatriotic or some shit.

And they don't possess the political wherewithal to pull the rug out from Obama and the Democrats.

14 The rationale for empowerment/opportunity zones is really a rationale for low rates across the board.

No one's going to do this, but I suggest an experimental plan where there are three zones:  higher taxes for Zone A, standard taxes for Zone B, and and lower taxes for Zone C.  It doesn't matter too much what gets zoned how, just that each zone is somehow basically equal (er, somehow), and that after two years, or four, or five, there's an accounting and the results (tax revenue, employment, standard of living, etc.) are published.  I'd be willing to bet that Zone C does better than A or B, but we should really test it as scientifically as we can.

I mean, low taxes work where they're tried, but somehow that never gets cited, so let's have an actual freaking study to point to.

15
--repeal Obamacare
--more domestic energy
--repeal job-killing regs
--border security/enforce the immigration laws on the books
--immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan

= winning the White House in 2012.

Five things. It's that easy.

16
Instead, we'll dwell on thins that people do not wish to contemplate at the present time, such as the complete overhaul of the tax code.

17 Then why not just stick with low rates across the board, Lance? This is way too John Edwards Two Americas for my liking.

18
In November 2012 people will be voting for their cost of living.

They'll vote for whoever can make it easier for them to pay for essential items such as food, medicine, and energy.

19 low taxes work where they're tried, but somehow that never gets cited, so let's have an actual freaking study to point to

Europe
North/South Korea
East/West Germany

The data is already pretty conclusive.  If someone isn't convinced by now, they never will be. 

20 I have absolutely nothing to do with a family of four making $22,000 or less. I do know that this family sends their kids to school, drive on roads, benefit from a strong military, has the same opportunity as me to call police/firefighters, etc..etc..etc.... So, sorry......you have to CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING! Don't like your lot in life then change it. Stop riding on my back! Poverty is NOT a permanent condition! It is NOT inevitable!

21 They'll vote for whoever can make it easier for them to pay for essential items such as food, medicine, and energy. Posted by: soothie at October 22, 2011 01:50 PM (sqkOB) I thought obama was picking all that up gratis?

22
btw, MA Gov Deval Patrick has a solution for the constant increase in health care costs in his state (even though he has the magical universal health care).

His solution is simple: price caps.

Price caps didn't work the first time Patrick tried it but that's only because it wasn't done right.

23 Nahn - Nahn - Nahn...unless you're black. I see how that works.

24

Good to see the leftie trolls here posting their Cain hate though. He must be making them pretty nervous.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 22, 2011 01:35 PM (r4wIV

Caniacs: As paranoid as the Palinistas were...

25
If the Republicans could articulate the importance of competiton in the marketplace and how it greatly benefits the consumer...

Instead we get price caps from buffoons like Deval Patrick.

26 Right, an opportunity zone means those in it have more liberty, and those out of it have less. It's crap. The opportunity zone should be the individual state itself, so that the positive sovereign is checked in it's power.

27 I'm surprised Coupe Deval doesn't blame Romney for the health plan he inherited.

28
He's saving that, Andy, for 2012.

29 It's the experiment idea, Andy.  Leftists believe in higher taxes, so, okay, let's do this as scientifically possible.  Try to account for any variables (demographics, climate, etc.) as we can.

I guess implicit was that most of the country (or hey, state) would be Zone B (standard), but Zones A and C would somehow be impartially/randomly chosen.

And the experiment would have to go on for a long enough time.

Yeah, individual states are kind of laboratories for this kind of thing, but they're really complicated and things get really muddied.  You have right-to-work vs. unions, Democrats vs. Republicans, pork and earmarks, natural resources, weather, Federal mandates and subsidies, gas taxes...

I mean, look at Perry's record of job creation.  How much of that is due to the energy industry, how much is his tax policies, etc. etc. etc.  There's, like, a millions variables and a lot of noise.

30 Both Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams have said it many times. Almost all people who are living in poverty do so because they made inappropriate decisions at some critical point in their life.

Most are females who decided to have unprotected sex got pregnant and quit school before graduating. Or simply decided to quit school and live with their "boyfriend" so they can get out on their own.

Then there are the guys who quit so they can hang out and be cool. But one thing they all have in common, quitting school and turning down all the opportunities to advance in life.

The liberals always call for one more program to help these "poor unfortunate people". But what they are doing is simply creating more of them. It started with LBJ in the 60s. His great society created the "failed society" for a huge percentage of the population.

We thought Newt's congress eliminated that. It didn't. They just changed the name to something else and moved on.

31
Deval Patrick just returned home from D.C.

He was in D.C. to renew MA's medicaid exemption.

32
We're at a point in our nation's history when state governments need exemptions from bad federal policy to make the the states bad policy work.

33 I mean, low taxes work where they're tried, but somehow that never gets cited, so let's have an actual freaking study to point to.

Posted by: Lance McCormick at October 22, 2011 01:45 PM (/D8ux)

Uh.... you know, there are this little zones called STATES, which have been working on that for a few... centuries... now...

My biggest problem with this is it once more is NOT a fair tax system, but one where the Government will once again pick winners and losers....  and in this one it will be REGIONAL?  Which flies in the face of both equal protection, AND treating STATES equaly.

34 I do know that this family sends their kids to school, drive on roads, benefit from a strong military, has the same opportunity as me to call police/firefighters, etc..etc..etc....

So, sorry......you have to CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING!

Most of the things you list are local/state tax issues. 

35 One last thing, the only "fair" tax is a flat tax on all income, no exceptions and no deductions. If you make that proverbial quarter sucking farts out of seat cushions then you pay 2.5 cents in income tax.

But the tax needs to be fairly low, no more than 15% and spending must be tied to the tax so that there is no deficit.

36 The white zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone.

37 >> I mean, look at Perry's record of job creation. Yeah, this sticks in my craw a little. Perry didn't "create" those jobs, and many of the conditions in Texas that did predate his term as governor. At best, he didn't fuck it up. Which is way more than you can say for the SCOAMF.

38 , Afghan President Hamid Karzai

Didn't notice what happened to the last snappy dresser that pissed US off.
Spouting off again to keep from getting whacked.
Just another ungrateful POS (muslim, pashtun, SE Asian sub-species).

39 Well, my pie-in-the-sky idea would mean that there'd be sub-zones of A and C in each state, but, yeah, it's just an thought experiment.  The idea is to give liberals their soul-crushing Socialism but exempt the rest of us, and then laugh at the misery that they asked for without realizing it.

If that's wrong, I don't want to be right.

40 >> He was in D.C. to renew MA's medicaid exemption. Right. Remember - Romney already passed a national healthcare plan. Well, one that was nationally funded anyway.

41  Tax rates based on the location of the taxpayer is an extremely dangerous precedent. It invites tax preferences based on cost of living by locales. This will have the perverse effect of attracting people to states and cities because they are more expensive. Inevitably this will lead, in the interest of "fairness", to calculating entitlement benefit payments based of cost of living by locale. I doubt this would be done solely by raising benefits in high cost areas. A mix of cuts for low cost areas and raising payments for high cost areas.

42 At best, he didn't fuck it up. Which is way more than you can say for the SCOAMF.

Posted by: Andy at October 22, 2011 02:05 PM (z6jMn)

Listen up, haters. I, uh have made major improvements since I won.

Fer instance, uh, by committing myself to a, uh, rigorous training schedule with my swing, uh, coach, I can now get my tee shot past the, uh, ladies tee.

43 I have no problem with those truly in poverty receiving exemptions, not with his plan or our current laws. I DO take serious issue with those who pay no taxes actually receiving "refunds".

The problem is, presently, one does not have to be in poverty to receive the exemptions nor, to my understanding, must they be in poverty to receive the "refunds".

40+% of this country is not in poverty, not by any measure. Even with the most liberal definition of poverty, most of those presently paying no taxes should be paying something(!).

Fighting exemptions for those truly living in poverty isn't a stand I am going to take.

Beyond that, I no longer give a rat's ass what Cain has to say.

He is not going to be the nominee. It's just not going to happen so why, other than distracting the MSM from Romney and Perry, is this even relevant?

44
We could afford exemptions for the destitute if, for example, we'd stop supporting Aunt Zetuni.

And stop blowing money on "good bets" such as Solyndra.

45 Has anyone asked T. Coddington Van Vorhees VII where he stands on this issue?

46

#35 Y-not:  Actually, almost half of each state's budget comes from the US Govt, as does a good chunck of road maintenance money (all US and Interstate rds).  As we have seen from "Stimulous" 1 and the current abortion that Obama is pushing, police/fire/teachers are being paid by the US in greater and greater numbers so the CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING! person is more right than wrong.

47
$16 muffins

48
attacking Libya so that Al Qaeda can take over...

49 another attack Cain thread at AoS.  color me shocked!  Guess since Sarah is out, Cain is the new target of choice.

50 48
$16 muffins

Posted by: soothie at October 22, 2011 02:14 PM (sqkOB)

Yes!  those $16 muffins!  food for The People!

51 46 Has anyone asked T. Coddington Van Vorhees VII where he stands on this issue?

Posted by: As If! at October 22, 2011 02:13 PM (piMMO)

TCVV7 bumper sticker: Give me moderation and compromise or give them tea party extremists death!

52 It's the experiment idea, Andy.  Leftists believe in higher taxes, so, okay, let's do this as scientifically possible.  Try to account for any variables (demographics, climate, etc.) as we can.

The answer will always be "they didn't do it right". 

Eliminating all of the variable but one is hard enough in the physical sciences.  It's next to impossible in life. 

53 >> another attack Cain thread at AoS. color me shocked! Guess since Sarah is out, Cain is the new target of choice. Care to comment on the substance?

54 52 46 Has anyone asked T. Coddington Van Vorhees VII where he stands on this issue?

Posted by: As If! at October 22, 2011 02:13 PM (piMMO)

TCVV7 bumper sticker: Give me moderation and compromise or give them tea party extremists death!

Posted by: Elize Nayden at October 22, 2011 02:18 PM (i4gLS)

Or "Give Me Principles."

55 Pointing out weaknesses in ANY politician's position isn't necessarily an attack.  It could be if the position is really foul, but it isn't a given. 

56 We could afford exemptions for the destitute if, for example, we'd stop supporting Aunt Zetuni.

And stop blowing money on "good bets" such as Solyndra.

Exactly. That's like this morning, on FNC, when one of the folks on the panel kept going on about teachers, firemen, and police....teachers, firemen, and police (repeat ad nauseum) however, there would be plenty of money to support firemen and police if local governments spent their money properly. (Notice I left out the teachers. I'm not even getting into that row)

A week or so ago I posted here about the bullshit our mayor ad city council had pulled on our sheriff. Long story short: The city needs to cut the budget. Our sheriff, already recognized as running the most efficient force in the state, offered up $16.5M. They came back and demanded another $4.4M. He pointed out that he had already cut to the point that anything further would diminish safety. The city council the took another $1.2M which equates to another 100 positions and expected him to be thankful about it.

Yet....YET....they continued to fund the city-owned horse stables, at a total loss, and decided to continue to fund Monday service at the libraries. I mean, of course they did. The libraries help to keep those smelly, unsightly homeless people off the streets during the day.

Priorities, folks.

57 >> The idea is to give liberals their soul-crushing Socialism but exempt the rest of us, and then laugh at the misery that they asked for without realizing it. Don't we already have that in Detroit?

58 Most of the things you list are local/state tax issues.  ----------------------------- Not with the current Administration.

59 >> however, there would be plenty of money to support firemen and police if local governments spent their money properly. Make sure you read that Steyn piece linked in the sidebar.

60 TCVV7 bumper sticker: Give me moderation and compromise or give them tea party extremists death!

I now want a TCVV⁷ bumper sticker just so folks will ask me what the hell TCVV⁷ stand for.

No slogans, just "TCVV⁷" only.

61 Make sure you read that Steyn piece linked in the sidebar.

Will do.

62 54 >> another attack Cain thread at AoS. color me shocked! Guess since Sarah is out, Cain is the new target of choice.

Care to comment on the substance?

Posted by: Andy at October 22, 2011 02:19 PM (z6jMn)

I've had the position from the beginning that the 999 plan was a great starting point.  As with all plans, it has flaws.  There's things that can be exploited by the left if it were vote into law today. 

I think he should have gone for the flat tax from the word go, but if he'd done that everyone would have dismissed him outright. 

I trust the guy, I think he's a leader, I think he's honest, I think he's somewhat insulated from the bullshit of PACs and the lobbyists.  It's that simple, really.

63 I'm declaring my bedroom an Opportunity Zone for females willing to be empowered in a big way.

64 >> another attack Cain thread at AoS. color me shocked! Guess since Sarah is out, Cain is the new target of choice.

Care to comment on the substance?

Well I certainly will, young lady. Obviously, you dislike Herman Cain because he is black - which makes you a racist, you racist.

65

Or "Give Me Principles."

Posted by: tangonine at October 22, 2011 02:20 PM (x3YFz)

Principles? Thats something for the bitter, gun clinging, sky god worshiping masses. We talk about a candidate here who appreciates and offers excellently creased pants and who's breeding led to gentlemanly manners in political discourse and competition. For such divisive things as principles is no room among true gentlemen.

And now go and learn your place, caveman! 

66
why do we pay for anti-smoking ads?

and those annoying stroke psa's?

67 I've been seeing people on other threads about Cain asking about what he talked about on his radio show. Here's a link to listen to old episodes. It goes back to August of last year- http://tinyurl.com/43jh6ty

68 Doesn't Cain think 2nd amendment rights are state issues?

69 > Now to the substantive criticism: Why does Cain expect me to bail out the failed blue social model in places like Detroit? It's freakin' Central Planning again. We have to move AWAY from that model, not embrace it. Yes, it is one of those things that can be justified on the terms that it helps those poor people. But we know the process doesn't work SO STOP DOING IT. This isn't something that would work if we would just do it right. IT CAN NEVER WORK. Read some Hayek. Boy, Perry's looking better and better...

70 tango nine, do you think the opportunity zones improve or detract from 999?

71 why do we pay for anti-smoking ads?

and those annoying stroke psa's?

How much in taxes do you smokers now pay for a pack of cigarettes?

72 66

Or "Give Me Principles."

Posted by: tangonine at October 22, 2011 02:20 PM (x3YFz)

Principles? Thats something for the bitter, gun clinging, sky god worshiping masses. We talk about a candidate here who appreciates and offers excellently creased pants and who's breeding led to gentlemanly manners in political discourse and competition. For such divisive things as principles is no room among true gentlemen.

And now go and learn your place, caveman! 

Posted by: Elize Nayden at October 22, 2011 02:27 PM (i4gLS)

You've found me out!  Drat!

(how many times, in any given year, do you get to use the word: "Drat!"?)  this is noteworthy.

73
He is not going to be the nominee. It's just not going to happen so why, other than distracting the MSM from Romney and Perry, is this even relevant?

===

By all means, let's not distract from Kang & Kodos. One of whom is already the MSM's anointed RINO. Does no one remember 2008?

If it comes down to Perry, I'll vote for him despite his soft stance regarding illegal aliens and I'll overlook the fact that he is about as intelligent and inspiring as a wet mop.

If it's Barack Romney, I'll just stay home on election day.

74 >> Doesn't Cain think 2nd amendment rights are state issues? He said that in an interview and then backtracked on it later, IIRC. Like a true leader.

75 I think he's honest, I think he's somewhat insulated from the bullshit of PACs and the lobbyists.  It's that simple, really.

No, it really isn't.  His completely incoherent answer on abortion tells me that he either a) hasn't thought about things very deeply, or b) is trying to have it both ways and isn't very good at it.  Either one disqualifies him. 

76

(how many times, in any given year, do you get to use the word: "Drat!"?) this is noteworthy.

Posted by: tangonine at October 22, 2011 02:29 PM (x3YFz)

I ues to use it all the time...

77 71 tango nine, do you think the opportunity zones improve or detract from 999?

Posted by: Andy at October 22, 2011 02:28 PM (z6jMn)

sweet creeping jesus.  Every night I get one of these "do you think A or B and why?"  It's like a poli-sci exam.

Not a bad thing, having to defend your position, but you mfers just bring it non-stop.

ANSWER:

I think Opportunity Zones are at a right angle to the principles that founded this nation.  Do ranchers and farmers get "opportunity zones?"  No.  So I disagree.

78 33 We're at a point in our nation's history when state governments need exemptions from bad federal policy to make the the states bad policy work. Posted by: soothie Tweeted! Gee, I didn't know Steyn posted under the "soothie" sock puppet.

79 Read my plan, you lame brains, before I change it up again.

80 ....backtracked on it later, IIRC.

Like a true leader.

Posted by: Andy at October 22, 2011 02:30 PM (z6jMn)

He seems to do a lot of that.

81 The idea is to give liberals their soul-crushing Socialism but exempt the rest of us, and then laugh at the misery that they asked for without realizing it.

Don't we already have that in Detroit?

Posted by: Andy at October 22, 2011 02:23 PM (z6jMn)

Point.

82 Read my plan, you lame brains, before I change it up again.

It's like the weather in Florida: If you don't like it, wait five minutes. It'll change.

83 "We" are not paying for those anti-smoking ads. They are being paid for by the cigarette companies as part of that massive government extortion settlement.

Which the government rapidly violated anyway.

84 > 38 >> I mean, look at Perry's record of job creation. Perry didn't "create" those jobs, ... At best, he didn't fuck it up. Posted by: Andy Which is a lot of what I'm looking for in a President. Leave Things* Alone. *that work

85

9-9-9 is now 9-0/9-9.

How much longer until he admits or changes something so it becomes 9-0/9/15-9

86 Hence, my new nickname for Cain: The Weatherman.

He takes the temp and forecasts accordingly.

87 How much longer until he admits or changes something so it becomes 9-0/9/15-9

Yeah, but you get breadsticks and a large Coke. 

88 >> I think Opportunity Zones are at a right angle to the principles that founded this nation. Do ranchers and farmers get "opportunity zones?" No. So I disagree. QED

89
so the stroke companies are paying for the anti-stroke psa's?

"stroke is no joke"

90 stop Big Stroke!

91 87 Hence, my new nickname for Cain: The Weatherman Rectal Thermometer.

92 > 50 another attack Cain thread at AoS. Posted by: tangonine It's called politics. You test candidates in the crucible of ideas and see who melts and who hardens. If his ideas can't take criticism, they're not worth much.

93 "We" are not paying for those anti-smoking ads. They are being paid for by the cigarette companies as part of that massive government extortion settlement.

Which the government rapidly violated anyway.

Vic...who pays for the cigarettes and the enormous taxes on those cigarettes? Admittedly, my first response was along the same lines but we already know that a company does not pay the taxes on goods...the consumer does.

94
I'd love to have a president who is an anti-meddler.

95 At the end of the day:  I vote for Cain.  I think Romney and Perry are just Obama light. 

Hell, I'd vote for Paul if his foreign policy wasn't fkd 9 ways to Sunday and ignored 6000 years of history.

96

Posted by: buzzion at October 22, 2011 02:35 PM (GULKT)

The Cain tax plan in july 2012:

Vf^2=Vi^2+2(a)(y)

97 stop Big Stroke!

I LOL'd

98 Vf^2=Vi^2+2(a)(y)


Stop that!

99 So I guess we can chalk up election season 2012 as this blog's Charles Johnson moment.

100 93

> 50 another attack Cain thread at AoS.

Posted by: tangonine

It's called politics. You test candidates in the crucible of ideas and see who melts and who hardens.

If his ideas can't take criticism, they're not worth much.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 22, 2011 02:37 PM (mGnwL)

stone throwing isn't "criticism"  it's just stone throwing.

101 @97, that's some funny shit right there.

102 Admittedly, my first response was along the same lines but we already know that a company does not pay the taxes on goods...the consumer does.

Yeah, except I quit smoking 5 years ago so I no longer pay for them.

103

If it comes down to Perry, I'll vote for him despite his soft stance regarding illegal aliens and I'll overlook the fact that he is about as intelligent and inspiring as a wet mop.

So you think his immigration stance is based solely on a tertiary issue to it.  Something that would never be possible to have done at the federal level.  And you'll ignore his actual border control efforts and views.

And along with this you are basing your opinions of his intelligence and appeal solely on his debates and nothing else.

104 Where's the critical debate on Romney's 59-point (really?) plan?

I'm guessing no one could stay awake long enough.

105 42  Tax rates based on the location of the taxpayer is an extremely dangerous precedent.

No, no, that sounds like a very good idea.  We should definitely try that. 

106 Criticism is only "stone throwing" when it involves your candidate, eh? Funny that you agree with the substance of the post.

107 Yeah, except I quit smoking 5 years ago so I no longer pay for them.

Good for you...on both counts!

108 Posted by: tangonine at October 22, 2011 02:40 PM (x3Y

===

Agreed.

109 Stop that!

Posted by: As If! at October 22, 2011 02:39 PM (piMMO)

So how much would you pay under these coming improvements of naan-naan-naan? Cain will invite you to do your own math!

110 One of the major places we went off the rails was sending states' dollars to be laundered through the federal system and then letting the feds decide who to redole out the $$ to.  The other insidious aspect of this is the way states are held hostage to the demands of the feds to get some of their dollars back, for example, adhere to speed limits/make seat-belt use mandatory or forgo getting fed transportation dollars.

111

The Cain tax plan in july 2012:

Vf^2=Vi^2+2(a)(y)

Accelerate we much!

112 Cain may seem to be changing his position a lot but if he's wrong I want him to change. He responds to the public. That's not a bad thing. Goes back to the Friedman idea of creating the climate where the wrong man MUST do the right thing. Yakking back and forth like this is part of creating that climate. On the other hand, I do want to see some core principles. "Enterprise Zones" - shudder.

113 You know, if we were to base who the blog wants to support based on posts that are written in crticism of them then apparently the guy supported here is Rick Santorum.

114 99 Vf^2=Vi^2+2(a)(y)


Stop that!

Posted by: As If! at October 22, 2011 02:39 PM (piMMO)

Congratulations on mastering chapter 1 of Physics 1.  And that last term is delta x not y.

115 Something that would never be possible to have done at the federal level. 
If you are talking about the wall here, then Perry said twice in the last debate that sure, a wall completely across the border was doable, contrary to many assertions here.  If you aren't talking about the wall, then never mind.

And along with this you are basing your opinions of his intelligence and appeal solely on his debates and nothing else.

Like it or not, a good chunk of the electorate will see only his debate performance and draw their conclusions.  And if they don't, the MFM will make sure they see the worst of his performances, i.e., he will be Palinized or Quayled, or Nixonified.  Good debate performance isn't enough, but it is a prerequisite.

116 >> Where's the critical debate on Romney's 59-point (really?) plan? 59 points. It beclowned itself from the very beginning. When Romney begins answering every question with "read my 59-9-9 point plan", though, it'll warrant more of a point-by-point takedown.

117

Posted by: tangonine at October 22, 2011 02:43 PM (x3YFz)

Are you kidding? Mastering what? That was a copy'n'paste hit job.

118 @104

+1

119 118

Posted by: tangonine at October 22, 2011 02:43 PM (x3YFz)

Are you kidding? Mastering what? That was a copy'n'paste hit job.

Posted by: Elize Nayden at October 22, 2011 02:45 PM (i4gLS)

Sorry Elize, I'm multitasking.  I endorse your hit job.

120 117 >> Where's the critical debate on Romney's 59-point (really?) plan? 59 points. It beclowned itself from the very beginning. When Romney begins answering every question with "read my 59-9-9 point plan", though, it'll warrant more of a point-by-point takedown. Romney should have made the plan "69 Pointers" and then people might have been interested. Romney is just blowing himself. Nothing to see here, move along.

121
Now if Mitt proposed a Sixty-Nine point plan....

122 121 117 >> Where's the critical debate on Romney's 59-point (really?) plan?

59 points. It beclowned itself from the very beginning.

When Romney begins answering every question with "read my 59-9-9 point plan", though, it'll warrant more of a point-by-point takedown.

Romney should have made the plan "69 Pointers" and then people might have been interested. Romney is just blowing himself.
Nothing to see here, move along.

Posted by: izoneguy at October 22, 2011 02:49 PM (i6Neb)

ISWYDT

123
I'm off my game today.

124 Cain may seem to be changing his position a lot but if he's wrong I want him to change. He responds to the public. That's not a bad thing.

I see several issues with this line of thinking:

First, he doesn't admit he was wrong about anything, just that he was "joking" or that others misunderstood. Second, it speaks to his inability to evaluate and present a cogent idea. Third, it is an awful-no-good terrible way to govern and, presently, he changes his position to suit the voters. What happens when he is elected and implements his plans without concern for losing a vote?

He IS a CEO. He is exactly like nearly every CEO I have ever worked for.

125

Seriously, what is it constitutional to tax one region less than another?

It seems like it might not be.

Regardless of what the reason is, (poverty-stricken 'opportunity zones' or whatever), would they be able to tax 1 state double another?

Can we all gang up and make Vermont pay all the taxes?

126 125 Cain may seem to be changing his position a lot but if he's wrong I want him to change. He responds to the public. That's not a bad thing.

I see several issues with this line of thinking:

First, he doesn't admit he was wrong about anything, just that he was "joking" or that others misunderstood. Second, it speaks to his inability to evaluate and present a cogent idea. Third, it is an awful-no-good terrible way to govern and, presently, he changes his position to suit the voters. What happens when he is elected and implements his plans without concern for losing a vote?

He IS a CEO. He is exactly like nearly every CEO I have ever worked for.

Posted by: As If! at October 22, 2011 02:51 PM (piMMO)

Not trying to be sarcastic, I really want to know:  where did he back off of a position by saying he was joking?  I'd like to see the links.  Again:  I just hven't seen it so if it's out there by all means put me some knowledge.

127 Can we all gang up and make Vermont Ben & Jerry pay all the taxes?

Can we all gang up and make Vermont Big Maple Syrup pay all the taxes?

fify

128
92 year old fossil Pete Seeger joins OWS.

129

There is nothing 'fair' about this idea of Empowerment Opportunity Zones.

It smacks of affirmative action and pandering. .....Something that Cain had led us to believe that he was above doing.

Wasn't the word "Opportunity" used back when affirmative action was sold to us? ....That black people "deserved to have the 'opportunity' to get ahead".....or some such verbage like that.

What about all the other people who aren't the chosen few that live in the Opportunity Zones? ....Isn't this like issuing Waivers to the ObamaCare law?

The fact remains that the Dems will savage Cain and this 999 plan because it cuts taxes for the "rich" and makes poor people across the country have to pay 9% more for their groceries, etc. ....And lets face it, 9% will feel a lot like 10% since it is so awfully close.

I like Cain. I was for him last spring when he said he would "never appoint a Muslim to his Cabinet"....but then he completely backtracked on that.

This 999 plan is a lot like those 'Loss Leader' schemes that retailers do, just to get people into their stores. ....Which is = You offer an item or two at a loss by discounting those to the bone, because people are likely to pick up a few more items while they are there, and since you have raised prices on everything else in the store, you end up making more.

130 How are the Tax free ghettos not a violation of the equal protection clause? Looks like that is for the states.

131 Not trying to be sarcastic, I really want to know:  where did he back off of a position by saying he was joking?  I'd like to see the links.  Again:  I just hven't seen it so if it's out there by all means put me some knowledge.

The electric fence. He was joking before he wasn't joking.

132 What Arthur said at 113. Friedman (Milton, not that douchebag Tom) was exactly right about this. Which is why I don't get it when people fall in love with individual politicians and react to substantive criticism of their policy proposals as personal attacks on the individual. I like Cain. A lot. I wish he was better at explaining this stuff, but he's not. I wish 9-9-9's business tax wasn't a modified VAT, but it is and he should say so. I wish he was going for a purely flat, fair tax system instead of offering up his own social engineering for places like Detroit, but he isn't. At the end of the day, though, I'd still vote for him over the SCOAMF because I believe he is one of the "wrong people that will do the right thing" that Milton Friedman had in mind. Romney, OTOH, is a shape-shifting bastard who will say anything to get elected. His problem isn't that he doesn't have the courage of his convictions, it's that he has no convictions. Not sure how this is better than Obama.

133 92 year old fossil Pete Seeger joins OWS.

I never cared much for his music.

134 This blog is starting to suck hardcore.

too many junk posts based on parsing words, semantics, and monday morning quarterbacking.....

it seems many have lost the "lets fix this" mentality of a year a go and have replaced it with full-on bitch mode.

i find it fucking ridiculous that some people can seem to focus on the positive point that here is someone who wants to unfuck the tax code, instead you bitch about why someone else' plan is not perfect for you.  where is your fucking plan? what the fuck are any of you doing about anything but fucking blogging or commenting

135 Cain is the only one that put forth a plan. His plan sucks, but no one else turned anything in.

136 130

There is nothing 'fair' about this idea of Empowerment Opportunity Zones.

It smacks of affirmative action and pandering. .....Something that Cain had led us to believe that he was above doing.

Wasn't the word "Opportunity" used back when affirmative action was sold to us? ....That black people "deserved to have the 'opportunity' to get ahead".....or some such verbage like that.

What about all the other people who aren't the chosen few that live in the Opportunity Zones? ....Isn't this like issuing Waivers to the ObamaCare law?

The fact remains that the Dems will savage Cain and this 999 plan because it cuts taxes for the "rich" and makes poor people across the country have to pay 9% more for their groceries, etc. ....And lets face it, 9% will feel a lot like 10% since it is so awfully close.

I like Cain. I was for him last spring when he said he would "never appoint a Muslim to his Cabinet"....but then he completely backtracked on that.

This 999 plan is a lot like those 'Loss Leader' schemes that retailers do, just to get people into their stores. ....Which is = You offer an item or two at a loss by discounting those to the bone, because people are likely to pick up a few more items while they are there, and since you have raised prices on everything else in the store, you end up making more.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at October 22, 2011 02:56 PM (OEMhx)

Cain has to turn this into a flat tax.  There's no other way out.  57% of America pays NO TAXES.  The idiots argue that they pay sales tax, but they get all that back with EIC.  So more than 1 out of 2 of the people you see on the street contribute NOTHING.

I should run.  I'd be assassinated, but still.

137 92 year old fossil Pete Seeger joins OWS.

Be terrible if he caught pneumonia or broke a hip or something.

138 where is your fucking plan?

Lower taxes for everyone.

Where's yours?

139 damn shake down sock.

140 Brother can you spare a drachma?

141 i find it fucking ridiculous that some people can seem to focus on the positive point that here is someone who wants to unfuck the tax code, instead you bitch about why someone else' plan is not perfect for you.  where is your fucking plan? what the fuck are any of you doing about anything but fucking blogging or commenting

Well, if I felt compelled to do anything other than tell you to shove your self-righteousness up your ass, it would detract from my bitching and commenting time so.... I'll keep it simple.

Shove your self-righteousness up your ass.

142

I think there's something to the idea that Cain didn't really think he'd get this far and that's why he's often not prepared. I would not put it past him to see running itself as a career move, with the outcome not crucial.

But you know, a candidate's fundamental positions on the issues of the day - 2nd Amendment, 10th Amendment, Commerce Clause, abortion, foreign policy, economy, etc. - could fit onto a few sheets of paper. You start with the big ideas and then work down to the details. But time and again, Cain does not even have the framework of the big ideas. He gets asked obvious, predictable  questions and does not display even basic knowledge. Even if he were not serious, he could have done a little homework. But he didn't.

I had hopes for this man. Past tense.   And the rest of the Republican field is no picnic either.

Oh well. As Rumsfeld famously said, you go to war with the Secretary of Defense that you have, not the Secretary of Defense that you want.

143 >> This blog is starting to suck hardcore. You're free to go elsewhere.

144 Give him a refund.

145 where is your fucking plan? what the fuck are any of you doing about anything but fucking blogging or commenting

May I suggest switching to Sanka.

146 You're free encouraged to go elsewhere.

147 This blog is starting to suck hardcore.

I agree.  You should move on.

148 I have lost interest in the 9-9-9 plan but I have no problem with him making adjustments to it as time goes on. That's what public debate is for. Obama is the one who comes up with a plan in the back rooms and tries to shove down everyone's throat exactly as they wrote it the first time.

149

137....Cain has to turn this into a flat tax.

But Tango9....that's what Perry has been saying for a long time....that the Flat Tax is the only thing that's fair. He even put it in his book 'Fed Up'.

150 Did he even spell out the tax rates for the work camps?

151

where is your fucking plan?

This blog is starting to suck hardcore.

where is your fucking plan blog?

152 I donated to Romney as we are exactly the same politically.

153 153 I donated to Romney as we are exactly the same politically.

Posted by: Christine O'Donnell at October 22, 2011 03:09 PM (ieDPL)

You know, I could use an extra wife or three.

154

You know, I could use an extra wife or three.

Posted by: Mitt at October 22, 2011 03:11 PM (EL+OC)

Doh!

155 Romney: shape-shifting RINO
Cain: unprepared and probably not up to the task
Perry: unprepared and probably not up to the task, and Rinoish tendencies
Gingrich: unelectable and obnoxious

At last, my time has come!

156 Did he even spell out the tax rates for the work camps?

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at October 22, 2011 03:07 PM (ieDPL)

Every thing is free in the camps, there just isn't much of it!

157 Simple is good.

One funny thing about our world is ... liberals keep trying to tweak the systems to rig things for the poor and minorities. The problem is all these tweaks make the system more complicated. Since poor people also tend to be dumb people ... the benefits of the all the tweaks tend to be captured by other people.

Affirmative Action is a good example. All these schools and govt agencies with these elaborate systems designed to discriminate in favor of blacks -- but without leaving a paper trail that can be litigated.

The reality is the Affirmative Aciton bennies are increasingly captured by rich blacks and foreign blacks -- and not the poor descendants of American slaves it was designed to help. And whites with latin sounding names are also getting on the Diversity goodies.

The left-wing bureaucrat's response is always to make the system even more complex to achieve their desired outcome -- but every additional layer of complexity just hoses poor people even more. Cause, again, poor people tend to be dumber than average.

Partly it's funny because the upper class left-wingers who design these programs refuse to believe in IQ -- so they keep designing programs for people like themselves. Instead of for people who can barely read and failed basic algebra.

158

151 Did he even spell out the tax rates for the work camps?

I hope they don't make us wear those dreadful orange jumpsuits......I look terrible in orange.

159 157 Did he even spell out the tax rates for the work camps?

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at October 22, 2011 03:07 PM (ieDPL)

Every thing is free in the camps, there just isn't much of it!

Posted by: H at October 22, 2011 03:13 PM (i3+c5)

You evilish Cain h8ers! Its called "opportunity-camp" and you just won your tickets.

160

92 year old fossil Pete Seeger joins OWS.

Screw Big Patchouli!

 

161
Arlo Guthrie, too.

Whoever that is.

162 I might be open to the possibility of a flat tax.  Maybe.  Possibly.  Probably not.  Only if the circumstances warranted it.  Has it been 30 seconds yet?  Help me out debate monitor!

163

Since COD has basically pulled a "lolz Romney!", can we finally agree that Delaware was a totally wasteful masturbatory exercise by people who just like to yell fire in an icestorm?

Just when I forgot how painfully idiotic the Delware GOP voters were, their "anti-establishment, "true conservative" pick just donates to the RINO Grand Poobah.

 

Congratulations. You defended a clown to "stop the RINO" only for that clown to use YOUR DONATIONS to...help the RINO.

 

 

164 162
Arlo Guthrie, too.

Whoever that is.

Posted by: soothie at October 22, 2011 03:24 PM (sqkOB)

Woody Guthrie's son.

Heh, I said Woody.

165 Cain should relabel his plan "99 tacos for 2 cents."  Winner.

166
Woody Guthrie?

Isn't he a puppet like Charlie McCarthy?

167 Headline on drudge says the greeks ask god for debt relief. Didn't read the article, but am wondering what the name of the greek god of debt is.

168 135 This blog is starting to suck hardcore. too many junk posts based on parsing words, semantics, and monday morning quarterbacking..... it seems many have lost the "lets fix this" mentality of a year a go and have replaced it with full-on bitch mode. i find it fucking ridiculous that some people can seem to focus on the positive point that here is someone who wants to unfuck the tax code, instead you bitch about why someone else' plan is not perfect for you. where is your fucking plan? what the fuck are any of you doing about anything but fucking blogging or commenting Perry, Flat Tax, no zones, no bullshit

169 Why aren't you guys discussing my 8675309 plan?

170 Brokassius? It's Greek to me.

171
Obamanus

172

169135 This blog is starting to suck hardcore.

too many junk posts based on parsing words, semantics, and monday morning quarterbacking.....

it seems many have lost the "lets fix this" mentality of a year a go and have replaced it with full-on bitch mode.

i find it fucking ridiculous that some people can seem to focus on the positive point that here is someone who wants to unfuck the tax code, instead you bitch about why someone else' plan is not perfect for you. where is your fucking plan? what the fuck are any of you doing about anything but fucking blogging or commenting

Perry, Flat Tax, no zones, no bullshit

----

Fuck Perry and his flat tax especially. My vote goes to the person who wants no tax. Everything else is only worthy of ridicule.

173 How about a zero percent flat tax. Raise money through tariffs.

174 Since someone brought up the Guthries and I think we could all use some good news;

But a new Northwestern Medicine study for the first time has identified a common cause of all forms of ALS.

The basis of the disorder is a broken down protein recycling system in the neurons of the spinal cord and the brain. Optimal functioning of the neurons relies on efficient recycling of the protein building blocks in the cells. In ALS, that recycling system is broken. The cell canÂ’t repair or maintain itself and becomes severely damaged.

The discovery by Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine researchers, published in the journal Nature, provides a common target for drug therapy and shows that all types of ALS are, indeed, tributaries, pouring into a common river of cellular incompetence.

“This opens up a whole new field for finding an effective treatment for ALS,” said senior author Teepu Siddique, M.D., the Les Turner ALS Foundation/Herbert C. Wenske Professor of the Davee Department of Neurology and Clinical Neurosciences at Northwestern’s Feinberg School and a neurologist at Northwestern Memorial Hospital. ”We can now test for drugs that would regulate this protein pathway or optimize it, so it functions as it should in a normal state.”

The discovery of the breakdown in protein recycling may also have a wider role in other neurodegenerative diseases, specifically the dementias.

175

174How about a zero percent flat tax. Raise money through tariffs.
---

Exactly. Get by with nothing in the way of an income tax and adjust the budget accordingly, fuckers.

176

Since poor people also tend to be dumb people ...

Hey, I'm poor and........

Crap, I may have just proved your point.

177 Eliminate income taxes, institute quarterly America-thons ala PBS.

178 Eliminate income taxes, institute quarterly America-thons ala PBS.

Contribute half your income and get 999 coffee mugs.

179 Couldn't we just have the military collect revenue from our enemies?

180 You beclowned yourself Andy on your response on Romney's plan. Why don't you take the advice you gave tangonine.

181

Posted by: izoneguy at October 22, 2011 03:28 PM (i6Neb)

-------

Are you the same 'izoneguy' who posts over at RedState? If so....thanks. ....I just read a post from 'izoneguy' over there about Romney's dad being born in a Mexican Mormon colony that had been formed by his ancestors who fled the anti-poligamy laws here.

I didn't know that Romney's dad had been born in Mexico. Woah. I wonder if the birthers know about this. I can't believe he's even bringing up the issue of illegal immigration.

No wonder HBO's 'Big Love' show did some episodes about a Mexican poligamy branch.....makes sense now.

182

180Couldn't we just have the military collect revenue from our enemies?
---

That is assumed, in my 0-0-0 plan.

183 > 133 At the end of the day, though, I'd still vote for him over the SCOAMF because I believe he is one of the "wrong people that will do the right thing" that Milton Friedman had in mind. Posted by: Andy Yes, I think Cain and Perry are examples of candidates who can be pushed to do the right thing since they are more-or-less in the general area anyway. I mean, Perry would not sign a bill that gave the UN authority over US Civil rights but he plausibly could be pushed into ID checks (E-Verify) prior to job hires. Once you've identified candidates in that category, then you can look at competence and electability. Nobody said this was pretty.

184 I didn't know that Romney's dad had been born in Mexico. Woah. I wonder if the birthers know about this.

Utah was part of Mexico when the Mormons settled there.  I don't know if that is what was meant by born in Mexico.

185 Mitt's father, George W Romney, ran for president in 1968. Was there a "birther" issue about that?

186

Here we go again - exemptions.

This is always to road to ruin. The 'exemptions' will keep getting pushed further and further up the income scale until you have half the country not paying any federal taxes. Oh wait.....

187 I thought every square inch of America was supposed to be an Opportunity Zone.

188 What about deducting mortgage interest?

189 >> You beclowned yourself Andy on your response on Romney's plan How so?

190 Apparently there is an election today in Louisiana. Jindal will win well over 50% (one of those goofy 'everyone and their cousin can jump in and if nobody clears 50%, runoff time' general elections). Fascinating to see how dramatically that state shifted. It's like the inverse of Vermont- but with nearly 3 times the electoral votes.

191

Here we go again - exemptions.  This is always to road to ruin.

Yes, because it shelters the profligate and the corrupt from the consequences of their actions.  Want to grow your economy and the wealth of your citizens?  Don't punish economic success. 

192 Since COD has basically pulled a "lolz Romney!", can we finally agree that Delaware was a totally wasteful masturbatory exercise by people who just like to yell fire in an icestorm?

Next time that seat comes up, conservatives don't have to beat an incumbent Republican and a Democrat to get a conservative into the seat. It was a conditional win—a half-victory that makes a whole one possible.

Maybe, unlike y'all in the high-IQ™ "nobody loves you, crackaz!" anti-conservative circle-jerk here, the troglodyte teatards of your nightmares can see two contingent events deep into the (possible) future.

Two! That's almost enough to forage for food.

193
remember Obama's DONUT HOLE?

Donut Hole this, Donut Hole that.

Don't hear much about the dreaded Donut Hole anymore.

194 Utah was part of Mexico when the Mormons settled there.  I don't know if that is what was meant by born in Mexico.

No he was born in Chihuahua.

195 Is that near Lake Pipicaca?

196

i hate the current tax code, but replacing it with something that is only a simplified version of what we have now is no answer.

the government needs to be smaller, the ONLY way to accomplish that is by starving of revenue, it will never voluntarily reduce itself.

there will be blood... or collapse, take your pick.

 

 

 

197

185, 186 ....According to the article that was posted, Mitt's father, George W. Romney was born in Colonia Dublan, Chihuahua, Mexico....in 1907.

------

Article in Seatle Times, titled:

South of border, Romney's Mexican roots run deep

[...] excerpt:

By the time Mitt Romney's father, George, was born in 1907, northern Mexico was headed for chaos and violent calamity.

With the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution in 1910, the Mormons of northern Mexico were forced to flee, as they had done in previous generations. The Romneys boarded a train for El Paso two years later, and Colonia Juárez and the other settlements were sacked by bandits. Only about a third of the Anglos would return to their homes in Mexico.

Mitt's grandfather Gaskell was not among them.

Father faced taunts

His son George Romney, Mitt's father, would grow up poor in the United States, taunted as "Mexican!" by other kids at school. But he went on to be a legendary auto executive, two-term Michigan governor (Willard Mitt Romney was born in Detroit in 1947), and one-time presidential candidate, losing the 1968 Republican nomination to Richard M. Nixon.

198 Actually, Romney's 59-point plan buttresses my key objection to him. Most of the points are technocratic small ball (e.g., amend Sarbanes-Oxley, not repeal - reduce the corporate income tax from 35% to 25%, cut domestic discretionary spending by a whopping 5%, etc.). Oh sure, he included repealing Obamacare. But only because he had to. His plan strikes me as exactly the kind of thing you'd get out of a business consultant - a big PowerPoint deck that he plops in your lap before he moves on to the next engagement while you have to live with the damned thing. If Cain's plan is bold and unique, Romney's is exactly the opposite.

199
Hillary Clinton, the clown Secretary of State, comments on the demise of Ghaddafi:

"We came, we saw, and he died [cackle, cackle, cackle]."

What a hoot.

200
and she did, literally, cackle when she said it

201
hee hee hee, we facilitated the assassination of a political leader of a sovereign nation, hee hee hee

202
Can you imagine if President Bush, in 2007, decided to take out Kaddafi for no worthwhile reason?

And then Condi Rice laughing about him being shot in the back in the head? The Democrats would have fits.

203

Interesting.....that Cain would use Detroit as an example of where he envisions one of his Opportunity Zones. Detroit being Romney's birthplace.

So if Romney becomes the R-nominee....then we would have two presidential candidates whose fathers were both born on foreign soil?  Well that would make the 'diversity' fanatics very happy. Yet another reason why the Dems would love to run against Romney in the general.

204 200
Hillary Clinton, the clown Secretary of State, comments on the demise of Ghaddafi:

"We came, we saw, and he died [cackle, cackle, cackle]."

What a hoot.

Posted by: soothiewing plover at October 22, 2011 04:08 PM (sqkOB)

Wonder if Hillary pissed on herself about Saddam Hussein's death...

205 "193 ... Next time that seat comes up, conservatives don't have to beat an incumbent Republican and a Democrat to get a conservative into the seat. It was a conditional win—a half-victory that makes a whole one possible." Oh, you poor demented creature ... Look, Delaware was - IS - the state that elected Joe Biden right out of elementary school, & kept on re-electing him thru exposure that he has no brain in the first place PLUS the lobotomy. And again. And again. And ... fuck it: SIX TIMES IN A ROW. So we know this much Delaware voters are uniformly retarded. Castle would have taken the seat, because Delaware voters know less words that your hunting dog: that is all. That piece of COD lacked even the attraction of that blind date who lets you know up front she's on Imodium. Flame wars over abortion are one thing; 50 years into the pill, it's like they trail only Second Amendment rights as a bipartisan American institution. But if there's one thing even less likely you can pry from a American's hand at any time before he's cold dead ... Yet BOTH characterize whoever's got hold of the Delaware GOP nominating apparatus. You think they can't do the same thing all over again, or worse? There's like 13 voters in the whole frickin' state, and Castle was one of the minority who could actually read. Yeah, that piece of COD endorsing Romney's a tell alright: on Romney.

206

201
and she did, literally, cackle when she said it

Yeah, I saw that too, Soothie. It was kind of disgusting....that she would do that with Karzai sitting right there.

And yeah, if anything like this had happened under Bush....the Dems would be going spasmodic over it.

207 Hillary sucks.

208 Video or it didn't happen.

209
newt post

210 @174: I seem to remember that's how it worked before the income tax.  Strangely, the country survived.

211 Before the income tax the government financed itself through tariffs, excise taxes, assessments on the States, and selling property out West.

Notice that they quit selling property once they got the income tax.

212 "199 ... Romney's 59-point plan buttresses my key objection to him. ... His plan strikes me as exactly the kind of thing you'd get out of a business consultant ... If Cain's plan is bold and unique, Romney's is exactly the opposite." On that measure, a flat tax is bolder and uniquer (sic) still. Now let's see if one this crew is smart enough to come up with a flat tax - oh: Perry. 9-9-9 has got to be one of, if not the single, best arguments for this increasing protracted pre-primaries debates system the GOP has gone to: it allows for dark horse candidates to introduce new ideas into the conversation. Sure Crazy Uncle RoPaul shows up like always with his 'pull my fake leg' trick, but the yutes love that so they tune it. Bachmann's gotten her base mugged off her, but that base is real & it's fabulous - & thanks for bringing it to the dance cuz it's staying for the party. Gingrich has showed he should be an automatic invitee until he croaks; he's like the designated driver you always need. But Cain should get his own monument for 9-9-9, because it's forced the flat tax back into the national conversation at a time when there's a vulnerable incumbent & an electable candidate to take him out. Beyond issues of 'justice' & all that crap, the flat tax is like the federal tax structure getting a chance to get born again. In one swift blow, 80 years of social fine-tuning gets excised like a metastatic melanoma so big & demanding to be fed, it's take over from the host. No one should be so naive to think the flat tax will stay flat once Congress gets to feeling it up, but the point is the thing there now is fatally diseased, which is what happens with tax codes over time, so after a while you're bound to need radical surgery. No one in this group, therefore no one running for president, is going to get any closer to the Grover Nordquist ideal than Governor Perry.

213 209 It's on YouTube

214 "31 ...Almost all people who are living in poverty do so because they made inappropriate decisions at some critical point in their life. Most are females who decided to have unprotected sex got pregnant and quit school before graduating. Or simply decided to quit school and live with their "boyfriend" so they can get out on their own." You're analysis has to adjust to the fact that 80% of abortions are gotten by women in stable middle-class-&-higher marriages. This implies a 1-to-1 relationship between poverty on the one hand & access to abortion & other family planning tools on the other. To take this to the brutal extreme: the point at which China turned from a nation of a billion near-starving peons to the biggest manufacturing power in the world today was when the Chinese government told couples they could have one child only & that rule would be enforced. And the only way that dictate got done was thru birth control & abortion - & a hell of a lot of both. I realize from past experience that this is not a popular position here, but truth will out: if boy morons want to get boned, they need girl morons to bone with, & there's no actual basis for thinking girl morons want to get boned any less than boy morons.

215
So, someone who personally benefited from affirmative action wants tax policy to reflect the racial -- oops excuse me -- "economic"  makeup of an area.

I'd say Cain has a pretty good chance of getting the Democratic nomination.  Wait -- he's running as a Republican?  Get out of it!

216

Also, Mitt Romney -- anchor baby.

217 OH-kay, so now we have the 9-9-9 AND the 9-0-9 tax brackets... one for people that get to pay the bills, and the other for people that get to live off of moochware. Gee, Thanks, Herman. Add to that his 9 percent "Subtraction Method VAT," as his scoring report likes to call it... a tax on business gross margin, NOT net income, that will force even companies in deep financial distress to pay taxes, and but of course will cause every company in America to suddenly realize that all those indirect costs they used to think were really G&A costs are really (guess what?) really manufacturing costs (after all, EVERY manufacturer can claim that ALL of it's indirect costs are really directly related to manufacturing, right? Just THINK hoW MANY IRS Agents and how detailed an IRC code Herman will need in order to keep them reasonable!)... And add to THAT a 9% National Sales, the first national sales tax in American history, one that will instantly make everything in the store 9% more expensive... And what do you get? I like to call it... Herman Cain, 0-0-0.

218 To take this to the brutal extreme: the point at which China turned from a nation of a billion near-starving peons to the biggest manufacturing power in the world today was when the Chinese government told couples they could have one child only & that rule would be enforced. And the only way that dictate got done was thru birth control & abortion - & a hell of a lot of both. Actually, I'd say the critical moment was when Nixon decided opening up China to trade so every discount store in the country could be filled with cheap Chinese crap was the critical point. I have a hunch we're going to shortly begin paying for the "cheap" crap with defense budgets that will make the ones against the Soviet Union look puny by comparison. I wish Nixon had never "opened up China."

219 OK, we don't need to do this now.  That's fine.  I say cut corp rates, end cap gains, and end the death tax.  THEN work on overhaul, if you want it.

Having stated that, I disagree that corp. tax leads to VAT.  That's what sales tax does.

I can accept Cain's plan if the sales tax is in a constitutional amendment, and is not changeable by congress.  It should never exceed 2%.  Ever.

220 @220: It's Cain's own economic team that calls the 9 percent tax on Gross Margin a VAT. A VAT is a tax on the value added by a company to materials it buys elsewhere. Gross Margin is the sales price less the cost of making the good. In other words... the value added by the company to its purchased component, as defined by the sales price. That IS the VERY definition of a VAT, and Cain's own report scoring his proposal calls it, quite correctly, a "subtraction based VAT."

221

Now to the substantive criticism: Why does Cain expect me to bail out the failed blue social model in places like Detroit? Because isn't that really the effect of making people outside the "opportunity zones" pay higher taxes than those within?

Two words:  BING-GO!

222

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223 There are so much to learn from your post here, Uma, well done.

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225 Alright, I'm not going to read through 200+ comments, so I dunno if someone already posted this, but a 9-0-9 for people under the poverty line has the dubious merit of being both a progressive and a regressive tax scheme at the same time. It's progressive because we're no longer taxing everyone at the same rate, and people who earn above the poverty line are taxed more. It's regressive because it can discourage people working underneath the poverty line from accepting a raise. Let's say you are the sole breadwinner in a family of 4 and you earn $22,000 a year. Your boss offers you a $1,000 raise. Because you raise would put you above the poverty line, you would suddenly owe a bit more than $2,000 in income taxes. So you decline the raise, because the government's tax structure would make your finances even worse. This is the essential problem with reforming the tax system. Right now, poor people pay NOTHING. And you know what? That's not so terrible. The problem is how to institute some kind of flat tax while not imposing said taxes on the poor, which is why the prebates make the FairTax such a great tax mechanism. (I personally don't support the FT because of the lack of various socially conservative deductibles, but tweaking the numbers a bit on the FT prebates to add socially conservative deductibles would make me support it).

226 I donÂ’t usually add my comments, but I will in this case. Nice work. I look forward to reading more.

227

There are so much to learn from your post here, Uma, well done.

228 Nice commentary. last thirty days I uncovered this internet site and desired to permit you be conscious that iÂ’ve been gratified, heading via your siteÂ’s posts. I should certainly be signing equally as much as the RSS feed and can wait around for another post.

229 The most F'd up part of the Cain whatever plan is that the underlying assumption is that it is the end consumer pays for everything, all that embedded tax.

What crap.

Everybody already knows that income tax, fica/medicare/workmans comp/whatever is paid by the employee and employer - the end consumer pays nothing.

So this assclown comes in claiming that regardless of your tax bracket you are paying about 30% federal tax on everything you buy and whatever you think you pay in income tax is BS.

BS!

230 Let me further reinforce this -999- is a sham - y'all know because y'all file taxes every year that YOU pay whatever income tax for whatever bracket you are in - none of that is ever passed onto the end consumer.

Yeah! Y'all got the smarts here. Keep that progressive tax.

231 Andy, the reason Cain wants you to help with the poor folks in empowerment zones is because guys like us have been helping pay for this country while poor shits like yourself have lived off our taxes all these years, now it's time for you to start paying your fair share.

232 Now I know why he refused.You may be different than me though...

I just hate airline travel and the way it makes me miss sleep or even the chance to relax for an hour or two every 6 hours.

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233 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

234 Now to the substantive criticism: Why does Cain expect me to bail out the failed blue social model in places like Detroit? Because isn't that really the effect of making people outside the "opportunity zones" pay higher taxes than those within?

Andy, the only tax system where we don't bail out those who've failed financially is one where the government accountants add up the annual expense of government, divide it by the US population, and send each person here a bill for their fair share.

Which candidate is proposing that?