1

Yep, still DOOMED and still fapping.

2 I wish one of the EU country's would go ahead and fully slip off the DOOM cliff just for the shock and awe value.

3 15 weeks of 400000+ UI. I think they're plan is working purrrrfectly.

4 I wish one of the EU country's would go ahead and fully slip off the DOOM cliff just for the shock and awe value.

I wish our so-called (ersatz?) "leaders" would wake up to the fact that their policies are ruining people's lives and get out of the Fother Mucking way.

5 Usual Senate GOP suspects pressure House GOP to show willingness to accept some kind of deal

6 Posted by: dogfish at July 21, 2011 08:58 AM (N2yhW)

You may get your wish today or tomorrow. Greece is running out of time. Actually, Greece is going to default -- everyone is now just trying to figure out how to sugar-coat it so the bond markets don't freak right the fuck out. If Greece goes, there's nothing stopping Portugal or Ireland from going with them, and Spain is not far behind. Then maybe Italy? Don't let the budget shenanigans here blind you to the much bigger story over in Europe -- we may be seeing the collapse of the entire Eurozone within the next month or so.

7 Meh...at least I know what scolding means...I've got that going for me. 

8 did anyone catch Tim Geitner's editorial in the WSJ yesterday?  What a jackass

9 >>Actually, Greece is going to default -- everyone is now just trying to figure out how to sugar-coat it so the bond markets don't freak right the fuck out Don't forget the banks. The CDOs on sovereign debt are ticking time bombs and a wave of defaults could start that chain reaction which will not stop at the edge of the Atlantic. tick tick tick .....

10 did anyone catch Tim Geitner's editorial in the WSJ yesterday?

Are you sure it wasn't ghost-written?  I mean, I have some serious doubts that someone who couldn't figure out Turbo-Tax could write a coherent sentence- let alone a full editorial.

But, no, I didn't catch it.  Was it more "Wah, wah, wah, meany Republicans, wah, wah, wah, Default (take our ball and go home), wah, wah, wah, increase taxes and spending?"

11

we may be seeing the collapse of the entire Eurozone within the next month or so.

Oh wonderful!  May I please have some more?

12 Allen, that's funny  because it's a fairly accurate description

13 Posted by: Ben at July 21, 2011 09:11 AM (wuv1c)

Alas, it doesn't take much of a mind to figure out what Turbo-Tax Timmeh is going to say.

14 This plan would be unpopular in Germany and in the other stronger economies that would be the main contributors to the stability fund. A selling point would be that unlike the plans put forward so far, the taxpayers of contributor nations would be protected by collateral. If things go badly, the stability fund would effectively own the banking systems in the countries that donÂ’t come up with a private solution. These assets would have value because they would be limited to those countries that are poised for growth.

Owning banks that hold worthless paper is considered 'collateral'?

I see this is the new left meme - collapse the economy completely, then claim that you are poised for growth as you try to climb out of the abyss.

15 Obama has broken the mighty US jobs engine, and the results are going to be very bad indeed if we don't fix it pretty damned quick.

FTFY, Monty.  I don't care how fast we get it fixed, the results are going to be bad.  The only question is if we'll get it fixed quick enough to prevent an irreversible decline.

16
That may be the farthest we'll ever see the left go in acknowledging that the ship is sinking.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish

 

Wait one month. If the House manages to hold firm, we may see the following:

Greece tanking, followed by the rest of the PIIGS.

Obama and the press lying (badly) about his grand party being cancelled/downsized .

Perry, Romney AND Generic Republican outpolling Obama in several states that Obama carried in 2008.

yet another set of dismal numbers, kept company by downward revisions of earlier reports.

 

He's already been forced to talk constantly to try and counter the sand shifting underneath him. Is some or all of these things come to pass, he'll be seen as a lame duck. Not by us; but by his erstwhile friends. The CEO from Vegas was one of the opening shots.

 

17 6 [...] we may be seeing the collapse of the entire Eurozone within the next month or so.

Posted by: Monty at July 21, 2011 09:04 AM (/0a60)

Not necessarily OT: We've all discussed what happens in the US if SS is eliminated outright, as many morons advocate. You once responded to a comment of mine by saying that the poor would be saved (if that is the right phrase) bythe religious community's various charities and social safety networks. I disagreed, but that's another story for another thread.

Here's the thing. No one can credibly say that there is anything like a private sector safety net in Greece, nor is there likely to be one created any time soon.

So what happens in Greece if their Government issue safety net disappears, or is so reduced as to not really function any more?

How do you say "Chaos" or Mad max" in Greek?

18 In a way this Euorotrash problem is our fault. If we would have forced them to pay for thier own defense and not propped them up with American cash through the IMF and other more cladestine sources, maybe this wouldn't be happening. They all lived in this bullshit secure world where they were free to experiment with socialist programs like Health care, early retirement, 30 hour work weeks, months long Vacations etc. The truth is they were doing it with our money. Time to pay the piper Eurotrash.

19 collapse the economy completely, then claim that you are poised for growth as you try to climb out of the abyss.

Well, they have a point- once you hit the bottom, you've got nowhere to go but up.

Of course, I don't think they realize (or, at least, the average voter doesn't, I'm not so sure about the "leaders" anymore) exactly how bad it'll be for everyone involved on the way down.

20

I wonder, with all that's been happening in Europe, how much longer Germany will remain quiet and calm.

They've essentially been bankrolling the European recovery since the 1950s wirtschaftswunder and have paid for the EU.  We're about 66 years out from WW II, so first hand accounts are fading from their memory. 

How much longer will their collective guilt for that war keep them silent  in the face of  their lazy and theiving "partners" in the EU?

At what point do they reassert themselves as the loan great power of Europe that they are?

21

You know, Tom Friedman can get it at least partially right when he gets his head out of Mao's decaying anus...

Warning, NYT linky ahead.

Can Greeks Become Germans?

Natural resources create corruption, as groups compete for who controls the tap. That is exactly what happened in Greece when it got access to huge Euro-loans and subsidies. The natural entrepreneurship of Greeks was channeled in the wrong direction — in a competition for government funds and contracts. To be sure, it wasn’t all squandered. Greece had a real modernization spurt in the 1990s. But after 2002, it put its feet up, thinking it had arrived, and too much “Euro-oil” from the European Union went back to financing a corrupt, patrimonial system whereby politicians dispensed government jobs and projects to localities in return for votes. This reinforced a huge welfare state, where young people dreamed of a cushy government job and everyone from cabdrivers to truckers to pharmacists to lawyers was allowed to erect barriers to entry that artificially inflated prices.

Now if only he could transfer the knowledge gleaned from observing the Greek-EU crisis into his prescriptions for curing the US of it's current economic aliment...

Note - I don't like the "natural resources create corruption" bit, but I let it slide to highlight Friedman's overall point.

22 Ok.. a question.. the libtards are full on pressing this "catastrophe" if we go past Aug 2nd on raising the debt ceiling..

My question is this:  How is this different from when the government shuts down for budget fights?  We weren't plunged into depressions when the gov't was shut down in the 90's.. how is this different?  My guess is, it's not any different.. important stuff will be paid for.

23 Well, they have a point- once you hit the bottom, you've got nowhere to go but up.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther)

 

Actually, there is another option.

24 21, It's funny Ben, I think Loan works both ways, it can be Lone also.

25 >>At what point do they reassert themselves as the loan great power of Europe that they are? heh. Unintentionally accurate on two levels.

26 I saw somewhere that France and Germany got together and decided the solution for Europe is a bank tax - to pay for bad loans. Amazing, you get a bunch of ministers in a room, and the answer is raise taxes.

27 24 - or Argentina, just skit around on the bottom like a flounder for a generation.

28 So what happens in Greece if their Government issue safety net disappears, or is so reduced as to not really function any more?

Luckily, they have a lot of water with fish in Greece.  Also olives and grapes.

Here's the thing: I have very little pity for the Greeks- they chose this mess.  They're actually a small enough nation with enough wealth (should they choose to harness it) that they could have prevented this slide.  However, they chose (actively- all of them except maybe the children) to make a national hobby of tax avoidance in addition to demanding a cradle-to-grave nanny-State.

The latter would be bad enough on it's own.  Added to the former it's a recipe for chaos.

29

So what happens in Greece if their Government issue safety net disappears, or is so reduced as to not really function any more?

 

They vote with their feet.

30 Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 21, 2011 09:19 AM (f9c2L)

It's not.  They're lying.  Film at 11.

31 24 - or Argentina, just skit around on the bottom like a flounder for a generation.

Posted by: Jean

 

Hey! Be Fair. We surfaced long enough to 'liberate' the Malvinas! And then got our asses kicked, but .........

32 Monty - we may be seeing the collapse of the entire Eurozone within the next month or so. I dont think we can address our problems until Europe shakes out - I can see a scenario which plays out that timing our "solution" to their "crisis" is a good thing. Anyone think our Pubs can play those cards right?

33 Anyone think our Pubs can play those cards right?

No.

34 30

So what happens in Greece if their Government issue safety net disappears, or is so reduced as to not really function any more?

 They vote with their feet.

Posted by: chemjeff at July 21, 2011 09:22 AM (s7mIC)

Great. Another bunch of freeloaders looking to suck at the US sugar Teat. One more reason to implement serious immigration reduction and reform.

35 We don't lie . . . we misinform!

36 So what happens in Greece if their Government issue safety net disappears, or is so reduced as to not really function any more?

There are two fallacies here.

1. That there ever really was a "safety net". Patronage and government jobs (with their fat pensions) were the mainstay of the Greek welfare state -- but this was predicated on the productivity of foreigners, not Greeks themselves. Greeks are finding out that income is tied to productivity; if you can't compete, you lose. That's it. It's an iron law of economics. (The short version is, "The world doesn't owe you a living.") The "saftey net" was an illusion, not a reality. And the same is true here with SS/Medicare.

2. That there is some moral requirement to sustain people who can't be bothered to sustain themselves. Civilization is a compact among people -- that they will work to provide for themselves and their families, and contribute some part of that income to the state to create public infrastructure. But this invites a "free rider" problem, and if enough "free riders" pile up, the state falls. It's a question of productivity and capital. Kindness and morality demands that we help people who through no fault of their own are in a bad way and unable to provide for themselves; it is the "civilized" thing to do. But kindness and morality are trumped when the money runs out. If there are too many of the "needy" and too few producers, the whole system fails. It cannot be otherwise.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes, it's possible to be too nice to your citizens. The welfare state is great in theory, but in practice, it's proving completely untenable. If you want security in your old age, the only real answer is to save your own money and be prudent in your youth. If through mismanagement or misfortune a catastrophe occurs, you turn to your family. Otherwise, you must depend on the fey and unreliable kindness of strangers.

37 and miseducate!

38 SPARTANS!  PREPARE FOR WELFARE!

39 Greece will go insular; you will see local hoarding of basic supplies, dramatic cuts in prices for tourists to bring in cash, and as always, the outlying valleys, towns, islands will get by - Athens? I smell smoke.

40 (Reuters) - The number of Americans filing new claims for unemployment benefits rose more than expected last week, pointing to a labor market that is struggling to regain momentum. 

Initial claims for state unemployment benefits increased 10,000 to a seasonally adjusted 418,000, the Labor Department said on Thursday.

Economists polled by Reuters had forecast claims rising to 410,000 from a previously reported 405,000.

"We're just stuck in this trend between 410,000 and 430,000. Generally we're just really not seeing any improvement but also not much worsening," said Jeffrey Greenberg, an economist with Nomura Securities in New York.

 

Is Jeff trying to get a job with Barry's administration?

41 I can't believe it took this long for it to be said:

Apparently,  Obama blew a big debt deal.

And that's not all.

42

21, It's funny Ben, I think Loan works both ways, it can be Lone also.

ha. That's the only time a spelling error worked out for me.

43
  This sounds like a good time to divest and go on a cash-only basis, with as little interaction with gov't as is feasible.  I guess having devalued cash is better than having NOTHING of ANY value.

44 Monty - you need a screenshot of a CIV5 city with a whole bunch of freeloaders vs a few producers, with all of the numbers going negative

45

I guess having devalued cash is better than having NOTHING of ANY value.

 

I have my old toenail clippings.  They gotta be worth something!

46

Greece will go insular; you will see local hoarding of basic supplies, dramatic cuts in prices for tourists to bring in cash, and as always, the outlying valleys, towns, islands will get by - Athens? I smell smoke.

I'm not sure I would want to be a tourist in Greece as the decline continues.

It's easier to beat up a tourist and take all of their money than it is to produce something and sell it to them for a bit off their money.

47

Posted by: irongrampa at July 21, 2011 09:28 AM (ud5dN)

 

yeah I am wondering about that too.

some people say pay off debt quickly.

some people say amortize loans for long terms and hoard cash.

not sure what to do.

48

Initial claims have now been above the 400,000 mark for 15 straight weeks. That level is usually associated with a stable labor market.

 

Really? The MFM  (Reuters) is going to try to spin 400,000+ for 15 straight weeks as a stable labor market.

49 irongrandpa - or go long term, buy a distressed property that can either reduce your costs longterm (no mortgage, rent, etc.) or produce income (rent, farm, business income, subdivide, etc.)

50

Posted by: King Leonidas at July 21, 2011 09:27 AM (zgZzy)

LOL!  Another computer screen almost bit the dust due to Pepsi Max spewing, .

I should have just let Ares raze ancient Athens to the ground;  better a quick death than a slow decline into decay and atrophy, leading to only death in the end.

51

Really? The MFM (Reuters) is going to try to spin 400,000+ for 15 straight weeks as a stable labor market.

Oh it's stable all right.  Stable != good

52 Ben, I wouldn't leave the airport in Athens - but the outlying areas/islands will be ok.

53 "The welfare state is great in theory." Wrong.

54

god it is so sad that I no longer have optimism for my great country.

Why do I get the feeling that in 20 years we will be in exactly the same spot we are in right now?  Except then the numbers will be larger still.

55

Really? The MFM (Reuters) is going to try to spin 400,000+ for 15 straight weeks as a stable labor market.

Oh it's stable all right.  Stable != good

Posted by: chemjeff

So is a person in a coma.

 

Or,

What do we usually associate with stables? Besides piles of horse crap that is?

56

I'm not sure I would want to be a tourist in Greece as the decline continues.

My friend was in Greece back in February.  While he enjoyed his trip, there were several instances where his leisure/business was disrupted by protesters and by the stray dogs roaming the street.  I'm sure it's just gotten worse since then. 

57 Posted by: chemjeff at July 21, 2011 09:32 AM (s7mIC)

From Terry Pratchet's "Feet of Clay" (approximate)

Sam Vimes: "How is he, Littlebottom?"
Cheri Littlebottom: "He's stable, sir."
SV: "'Dead' is stable..."

58
@46--emergency food source?

59

@46--emergency food source?

really?  Okay Kratos, you tell us: is keratin digestible?

60 If through mismanagement or misfortune a catastrophe occurs, you turn to your family. Otherwise, you must depend on the fey and unreliable kindness of strangers.

Posted by: Monty at July 21, 2011 09:26 AM (/0a60)

This is what I was angling for. I've never argued in favor of a nanny state in any form, and I sure don't regard what is commonly termed the "Safety net," to be anything of the sort.

What I was wondering about is more along the lines of comments about towns hoarding and Athens burning. The PIIGS each have their own cultures - which we sometimes view as a monolithic European culture - and I'm starting to wonder just how each country will react to the elimination of the cushy government jobs, payments to the work-shy, etc.

A sociologist's dream: watching 5 countries revert back to 18th or 19th century social models in a matter of months or a few years. Maybe we should form MoronGames, Inc. to build games (MMRPG or otherwise) based on dystopias. Then we could get our dose of DOOM any time we want, and make a profit as well.

61
  During the run-up to winning our personal war on poverty, we lived quite frugally, for obvious reasons.  It's amusing to me now, that the habit of so doing is literally impossible to break, now that it is no longer demanded.

 In light of the current situation, though, perhaps that ain't such a bad thing.

62

There's a headline on Yahoo right now:  Fresh Jobless Claims Rise Unexpectedly

UNEXPECTEDLY!!!  Why is it unexpected?  Did they think there weren't that many jobs left to lose?

http://tinyurl.com/3zthm4s

 

63 Damn sock! Kal would never dream of starting a company ...

64

really?  Okay Kratos, you tell us: is keratin digestible?

No.  Keratin is a structural protein, so it is pretty resistant to proteolysis and many organisms wouldn't possess the keratinases to break it down.

I'd also imagine that you wouldn't get much energy or useful bi-products from keratin break-down.

65 What I was wondering about is more along the lines of comments about towns hoarding and Athens burning. The PIIGS each have their own cultures - which we sometimes view as a monolithic European culture - and I'm starting to wonder just how each country will react to the elimination of the cushy government jobs, payments to the work-shy, etc.

A sociologist's dream: watching 5 countries revert back to 18th or 19th century social models in a matter of months or a few years. Maybe we should form MoronGames, Inc. to build games (MMRPG or otherwise) based on dystopias. Then we could get our dose of DOOM any time we want, and make a profit as well.

Posted by: Kal Penn

 

If you want to know, look at the Irish. They love coming here and working here, but many  go back to Eire to retire, so as to take advantage of the retirement scheme there (at least they used to). Their youth come over here in droves and work at the beaches on the East coast, mostly under the table, and thus depress wages and deny opportunities to American youth. There have already been articles how emigration is again increasing as Ireland's youth is fleeing the deepening hard times. Their avoidance of taxes and love for scamming EU development programs and agricultural subsidies are legion, and are considered to be a sport. Their love of the dole, combined with low tax compliance and a high VAT helped make the mess they're in. Toss in several spectacular instances of corruption and a failing socialist health system and you have the modern socialist Republic of Ireland.

66 Josef K - since its a euro game you have to make nice wooden pieces

67 Hey, we've got a great idea for cutting the deficit: Let's stick it to military retirees.

68

I think we were supposed to deliver this intercepted note to you, right?

My Dear (classified),

Well, anyway, the vote was (classified) FOR and (classified) AGAINST, which means plans for packing it all in and waiting out the next Ice Age are a go. Please have your Sperm/Ova pairs ready for shipment by October 15. The seed bank project worked, and the Eloi think it's for some "disaster." The real bank at (classified) is near completion, and all the cryo chambers have passed initial testing.

The chairman has authorized me to tell you that the "no Krugerrands or Blood Diamonds" statement was his little joke, to keep the media happy. Those still sweating it out can make your next secure drop-payment in any of the durable forms of money you choose. For obvious reasons, $US are to be treated like any other fiat money, so please complete your conversion soon, if you had any dollars left hanging around after that incident with Michelle Obama in Prague (don't worry, she's not on the list, Barak is hanging the fallout from Rezko on her and her brother). I'm not sure about him, either.

I have to go prepare the final cut for breeds of animal companions. You did a good thing when you pressed hard for keeping wolf. Our breeding experts have finally jettisoned the entire contingent of domesticated food animals, since their hardiness is in serious doubt. Your investment in the Siberian group is turning out to guarantee your brood a sizeable share!

This is my last communication until operation Bankfall. We'll see you at the collection point in Nova Scotia.

Regards,

(classified)

69 Obama blowing up the debt deal smells like victory.

70

Posted by: Monty at July 21, 2011 09:26 AM (/0a60)

So well said.  Your ability to articulate these concepts is unparalleled.

Highest honors.

71 Posted by: Gang of Six Crony Fucks at July 21, 2011 09:50 AM (agD4m)

Okay. So in less than 48 hours we've gone from "Sucks, but I guess I can support it," to "Sucks and I don't support it," to, "Really sucks, and I'll campaign/contribute against anyone I can who votes for it."

72 This is OT, but has the matter of Cenk Uygur's departure from MSNBC been discussed here at the HQ?  Not that I ever thought that Uygur was any kind of powerhouse, even in lefty circles, but I'm in the mood for some good news in the midst of all this DOOM.  I figure the M&M treatment of Uygur and his "I'm taking my ball and going home!" attitude would be enough to put a smile on anyone's face (well, except maybe Uygur, but screw that guy).

73

So, the Republicans tried to snatch defeat from the Jaws of victory, but Jaws gave the defeat to Obama instead?  Jaws is conservative?

74 Posted by: yinzer at July 21, 2011 09:54 AM (/Mla1)

Well, by the MFM definition he'd have to be: he takes whatever he wants for himself, no matter the damage it does to anyone else.  Sounds like the MFM definition of 'conservative' to me.

75 Hey, we've got a great idea for cutting the deficit: Let's stick it to military retirees.

Posted by: Gang of Six Crony Fucks

 

There is nothing wrong with this if it occurs to ALL Federal retirees. In truth, it should happen to SS retirees as well. That means current ones. This 'leave the current ones and the ones five years out' is crap.

WHat concerns me is that they will cut only the military, and point to that as proof that they 'cut something'.

76 68 Josef K - since its a euro game you have to make nice wooden pieces

Posted by: Jean at July 21, 2011 09:49 AM (WkuV6)

Actually, I sometimes play a game called Tropico, which was obviously written by a bunch of lefty/socialist types. You get to be El Presidente of a Caribbean isle and run it the way you want. Its a trifle, but amusing. I'm seriously considering learning game programming just to decompile games like it and make them better.

Most European-designed games suck. They need serious tweaking to go from disappointing to satisfying.

77 On a blog called USofearth.com there is a game (free) about the economy crashing.  It might be what "Kal Penn" is looking for!

78 Obama blowing up the debt deal smells like victory.

Posted by: Bob Saget

 

Perhaps this is why he is suddenly open to a short term deal? His teflon is wearing thin in spots. He might get stuck with this one.

79

So, the Republicans tried to snatch defeat from the Jaws of victory, but Jaws gave the defeat to Obama instead?  Jaws is conservative?

Posted by: yinzer at July 21, 2011 09:54 AM (/Mla1)

Jaws is pissed at George Soros for kidnapping his shark buddies, imprisoning them in his Soros Volcano Lair, and strapping laser beams to their heads. 

80 So what happens in Greece if their Government issue safety net disappears, or is so reduced as to not really function any more?  How do you say "Chaos" or Mad max" in Greek?

Posted by: Josef K. at July 21, 2011 09:15 AM (7+pP9)

 

 

I doubt it will be that exciting.  They'll dump the Euro and go back to a native currency.  They'll limp things along, probably with significant inflation.  Happily they're not overburdened with an up and coming glut of young people, which will help.  Plus there's a vast underground economy as it is.  That will simply have to swell yet further. 

 

81 @77  It is proposed for Social Security too, but the premise of the chained-CPI is that if prices go up, we all just shift to cheaper alternatives.  Which is a sort of asinine premise, if you ask me.

How far do prices need to go up before we get a negative COLA?

82

I doubt it will be that exciting.  They'll dump the Euro and go back to a native currency.  They'll limp things along, probably with significant inflation.  Happily they're not overburdened with an up and coming glut of young people, which will help.  Plus there's a vast underground economy as it is.  That will simply have to swell yet further. 

 Posted by: Reactionary

 

And the only ones who will lend to them after that (should/will be those who are able and willing to take the risk. If we go back to nations or the IMF throwing money in, then the cycle begins anew.

83 Will I still be able to get my Greek martini olives?  I like mine dirty.

84

Jaws is conservative?

 

No, but math is uberconservative.

85 Posted by: Josef K. at July 21, 2011 09:57 AM (7+pP9)

I'd kind of like to team up with an economist type (or, at least, someone who really knows about the economy) to program logic for SimCity / Civilization type game that actually followed some real behavior models.

Such as: When my taxes would go up more than my income, I choose not to gain more income.  And: When my taxes go up, I try to find ways to shelter that income.

I'd love to see what that would do to such games.

86 It is proposed for Social Security too, but the premise of the chained-CPI is that if prices go up, we all just shift to cheaper alternatives.  Which is a sort of asinine premise, if you ask me.

How far do prices need to go up before we get a negative COLA?

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth

I'd agree, but the premise that we have money to support a COLA is equally as asinine. We do not have what we are pumping out, and the situation is only going to get worse.

87

Here's a funny aside from all this DOOM:

 

ABC NewsÂ’ Sherisse Pham (@sherisse) reports: Martin Sheen was on Capitol Hill Tuesday, just in time to witness the partisan gridlock over the countryÂ’s debt and budget. In an interview with ABCÂ’s Jonathan Karl, the former West Wing star recalled what his character did when confronted with members of the opposition digging their heels in.

“I think I shut down the government if I’m not mistaken,” said Sheen. “And I walked up Pennsylvania Avenue to the Hill and waited in the speaker’s office and if that’s required I’ll do that again as well.”

President Obama — are you listening?

88 @78 I like the Paradox games, but thanks to their being based in Europe, what with the anti-mention-the-Nazis laws, when one plays a World War Two game like Hearts of Iron, one finds oneself crushing a Germany that flies the old red-white-black banner of Imperial Germany, and is devoid of SS units.

Very odd, as encircling and destroying those has always been a particularly satisfying part of wargaming for me.

89

It's FDR all over again - I've read articles that speculate that the Great Depression wouldn't have lasted as long as it did had he not been in office for 3+ terms.

And people forget that a Constitutional Amendment was passed quickly and overwhelmingly after his passing that limited a president to no more than 10 years in office, NO MATTER WHAT.

He did a lot of damage to the economy and the country, but Americans were - and still are - a resilient people. 

If Obama wins a second term, it's going to be because a LOT of electoral fraud occurs (I'm convinced that's how Roosevelt won all of his re-elections).  The difference this time is that people are much more aware of what is going on, and we are much more connected.

90 Such as: When my taxes would go up more than my income, I choose not to gain more income.  And: When my taxes go up, I try to find ways to shelter that income.

That's just crazy talk.  The next thing you'll tell me is that businesses pass costs on to consumers.

91 Monty, that link to USnooze really creeped me out. Are there serious people who still think Obama is "rational," or is that guy just angling for a spot on MSNBC?

92 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at July 21, 2011 10:09 AM (B+qrE)

Thomas Sowell would qualify that to "business pass costs on to their consumers when they can."  You can't really pass your high labor costs on to your consumers if all your competitors have lower labor costs.  Regulations, however, hit everyone (theoretically- in reality, not so much), and so those costs get passed onto consumers.

That's part of why tax increases and such here are so anti-competitive: it increases domestic companies' costs in such a way that they can't "pass them on to the consumer" because foreign companies would just undercut their prices.

93

(I'm convinced that's how Roosevelt won all of his re-elections).

 

If FDR didn't have WWII, I don't think the U.S. would have come out of The Great Depression as quickly and as well as it did.

 

94 We all agree that the "entitlement mentality" from years of social welfare programs harms millions of our fellow citizens, robbing them of hope and a work ethic. The question is what sort of mentality is going to spring up when our government spends us into poverty, and we see our fellow citizens out in the street rioting for the government to keep spending as their supposedly paid for benefits are shown to be nothing more than a politicians empty promises?

95

Martin understand it was a television show and that the writers controlled the outcome?

 

Obama could do a better job too if only he had better writers!

96 One bonus of a new Greek diaspora: The new arrivals will tend to congregate where there already are Greek enclaves, like here in Astoria NY.  Which will have the happy side effect of pushing out some of the hipster douchebag interlopers.

Speaking of those, the gay subvariant here is...odd, very odd.  They dress like adolescent girls with money to burn.  They are like an ironic parody of all our stereotypes of gay men.

97

That's part of why tax increases and such here are so anti-competitive: it increases domestic companies' costs in such a way that they can't "pass them on to the consumer" because foreign companies would just undercut their prices.

Attention people who think the private sector is the answer to space policy.  Substitute "governments" for "companies" there.

98 One bonus of a new Greek diaspora: The new arrivals will tend to congregate where there already are Greek enclaves, like here in Astoria NY.  Which will have the happy side effect of pushing out some of the hipster douchebag interlopers.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth

 

It sounds like you live in the area that I used to live in. 30th and Broadway. The neighborhood turned over to Greek within ten years of our moving to Delaware.

99 Free health care! Free health care! Single payer! Universal!  Tax payer funded Government healthcare!  I don't care if the evil private secotor dies. I want my democracy free stuff NOW!

100 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 21, 2011 10:05 AM (8y9MW)

I agree wholeheartedly. So many games could be so much better if they could be modified ...

The old MS Flight Sim games at least let you modify the aircraft skins and performance characteristics. That made for some interesting eye candy and some fun, if unrealistic planes zipping around in the sky.

I'd love to have a game - like Tropico or Sim City - where you run a small country that follows real (read, conservative) economic and social modeling. For example, raising taxes never brings in as much as it is supposed to.

Yeah, I think my new hobby is going to be programming; I can make better games than the kids that make them now. Time to get to it.

101 If FDR didn't have WWII, I don't think the U.S. would have come out of The Great Depression as quickly and as well as it did. I said something like that and got run out of Harvard as a result.

102 I said something like that and got run out of Harvard as a result.

Posted by: Larry Summers

 

I thought that you dissed the wimmen and math?

103 "Crony Capitalism" - God I hate that term. I will grip every time someone uses it. It is thre American System which almost nobody knows about, but a much better name for is pure old corruption. And the linked article to the Washington Times tries to say something but doesn't go far enough. (I guess that is better than the NYT)

The massive 2,300-page tome - commonly known as Dodd-Frank - promised to fix the financial system, streamline regulation and end bailouts. Like so much of President ObamaÂ’s legislative achievements, this bill promised much, delivered little and cost a great deal.

How about this, NO LAW that establishes new regulations has EVER streamlined regulations, that is no as in NONE. That sentence is a damn oxymoron.

What this new law will do is exactly like its predecessor, which is still on the books by the way, does. It will give the government a ton of new executive power, it will stifle business, especially small business, and it will cost the tax payer a shit ton of money at the same time it increases unemployment by driving buisness overseas.  That at the same frakin time it doesn not acomplish a dman thing to fix the supposed problem that Dodd and Frank created to begin with.

Both of those SOBs should be in JAIL. And piss on Scott Brown for giving them the vote they needed to break the vote on this. 

104 I thought that you dissed the wimmen and math? I just noticed a trend. Ain't PC a bitch?

105 Ironically, Obama may still represent the best hope for a sweeping debt-reduction plan that gets the government back on a sustainable path—but only if he wins re-election in 2012.

Another proud member of the reality based community.

106

Obama could do a better job too if only he had better writers!

Actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that Obama honestly thought that being President was as "easy" as it looks on TV and in the movies. He never realized that those "Presidents" had their lines scripted and their scenes laid out in advance (after much writing and re-writing of the plot). Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way - nobody knows how "the story" is going to end.

To paraphrase a line from "Sleepless in Seattle":

"You don't want to be the President; you want to be "The President" in the movies."

107 @102 we are north of the Grand Central, Ditmars area. 

@104 I notice that, in those games that allow you to set tax rates, one generally sees a decrease in growth and/or a shift from immigration to emigration when one raises tax rates.

IIRC SimCity was especially obvious about this, and it is about the only thing BattleGoat got dead on in their Supreme Ruler series.

P.S. At least in Civ5, Sid finally dropped the Global Warming bullshit.

108 Why is Barney Frank, the biggest corrupt idiot on the planet, allowed to write and shove bills down our throats? The man should be in an orange jump suit for his participation with and defense of Fannie and Freddie.

109 Later today, the House will have a chance to prove their seriousness about cutting spending when they begin consideration of an appropriations act that includes cuts to their office budget and allowances.

110

some people say amortize loans for long terms and hoard cash.

not sure what to do.

Posted by: chemjeff at July 21, 2011 09:30 AM (s7mIC)

During great depression 1.0 a good many of the sheriff's auction sales of property were not because people couldn't pay their mortgage. It was because people couldn't pay their property tax. So having cash on hand and no debt is good if you wish to hold your property.

Of course the general myth is that the evil bankers foreclosed on poor "Nellie's farm" and sent her into a life of prostitution.

111 @113 The only thing that bothers me about Congressmen cutting their own benefits is that it makes it easier for them to piously impose new taxes on everybody else since, they to are "sharing the sacrifice."

112 Why is Barney Frank, the biggest corrupt idiot on the planet, allowed to write and shove bills down our throats? The man should be in an orange jump suit for his participation with and defense of Fannie and Freddie. Because we are ill-informed lunatics.

113 LOL, we're so fucked. From RS/Investor's Business Daily: National Debt: No wonder President Obama has so heartily endorsed the "Gang of Six" deficit plan. Just like everything Obama has offered so far, it's short on details and long on tax hikes. Soon after the "Gang of Six" — a bipartisan group of senators that has been trying for months to put together a deficit reduction plan — issued its new proposal, President Obama praised it as "a very significant step" that represents "the potential for bipartisan consensus." What it really represents is Washington at its worst. The "plan" Obama was praising isn't a plan at all, but a few pages of bullet points with vague concepts, promises of future cuts, and confusing, and at times contradictory, numbers. And what details it does contain show that the gang has employed some of the most egregious budget tricks available to make the spending cuts look bigger and tax hikes smaller than they actually are. The best example of this is the plan's tax proposal, which alternately boasts that it cuts taxes by $1.5 trillion and raises them by $1 trillion, but which more likely will result in taxes going up by more than $3 trillion. Keep reading http://tinyurl.com/3mr8pdn

114 Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at July 21, 2011 10:23 AM (agD4m)

What I found in SimCity (the last version I played was long ago, however) was that tax rates had to be relatively high before they stifled growth.  And, indeed, SimCity was fairly realistic about it considering you were Simulating a City and your "Tax" was a sales-tax rate.  Anything below about 5% is negligible (and not really enough to fund a city beyond a certain size) and anything above about 8% is going to get people to go elsewhere.

So I guess I'm talking more about Civilization than I am SimCity.

115 And somebody needs to get the hook for Larry Kudlow.

116

If FDR didn't have WWII, I don't think the U.S. would have come out of The Great Depression as quickly and as well as it did.

Posted by: runningrn at July 21, 2011 10:12 AM (ihSHD)

WWII did not bring us out of great depression 1.0. It only pasted over the symptoms by giving full employment to the military and full business to manufacturing for making military equipment.

What got us out of great depression 1.0 was repeal of some of the more onerous regulations and the fact that the rest of the world had no manufacturing so we could export everything.

As soon as the rest of the world got their buisness back in the mid 60s we started sliding again. The JFK tax cuts probably had more to do with helping our economy grow than anything but he didn't go far enough in killing a lot of the FDR regulations.

 

117 OT: Any Southern DFW Metroplex Morons looking for work (or knowing someone in that area who is): Mansfield's Mouser Electronics is having a job fair for warehouse positions Saturday (7/23) from 8 - 11:30 at their office on Main Street in Mansfield.

Just in case anyone is interested or knows someone who is.

118

Hey, we've got a great idea for cutting the deficit: Let's stick it to military retirees.

This can't be avoided--it's not just Shaniqua and her 5 babies by 4 fathers that will get hit by government cutbacks.  Anyone getting some form of government paycheck is going to feel the pain.

We might not like it when it hits folks we feel it shouldn't, but the math doesn't care how outraged we get about it.

119 @119 One nice thing about the Civilization series is that one can mod the bejeesus out of it. Civ 2 was the first game I ever really managed to mod for myself. It's been a while since I played Civ 5, but I believe one could cobble together a plausible economic model by tweaking the culture advances and techs, and maybe scripting in some events.

120 @122 Yet, Libtard Mk1 Mod0 will cheerfully attempt to claim that we did just great under the high marginal tax rates we had in the 1950s, while ignoring the fact every other industrial country was flat on its ass from the war.

121 116 @113 The only thing that bothers me about Congressmen cutting their own benefits is that it makes it easier for them to piously impose new taxes on everybody else since, they to are "sharing the sacrifice."

True. Though it will be interesting to see whether the bills and other related amendments pass considering the hissy fit thrown by the moderate Rs on the Appropriations Committee.

122

This is OT, but has the matter of Cenk Uygur's departure from MSNBC been discussed here at the HQ?

All the bros down at the Delta Tard house are going to be soooo bummed, dude. The Cenker was like, a success and stuff, and now he's out of a job.

It ain't like fair, man- but at least we can have Cenks back to do beer bongs during Rush next semester. Paaaar TAY! Whooooooooooooh!!!!

123 Blind people shouldn't skydive:

http://tinyurl.com/3tkhhr8

124 Interesting article in IEEE Spectrum - "Do Robots Take People's Jobs?"

http://tinyurl.com/5w3jhk9

125
I'd love to have a game - like Tropico or Sim City - where you run a small country that follows real (read, conservative) economic and social modeling. For example, raising taxes never brings in as much as it is supposed to.

Yeah, I think my new hobby is going to be programming; I can make better games than the kids that make them now. Time to get to it.

Posted by: Josef K. at July 21, 2011 10:17 AM (7+pP9)

Did you ever play Shadow President? That could be reworked into something awesome.

126 Obama has had sub-50% approval for 10 consecutive quarters... http://pwire.at/oN9RQd

127 One thing all the Morons need to keep in mind about Greece "defaulting" is how all that World Bank shit works. When they "loan" a nation money they are not actually loaning the money at all. What they do is have member nations, primarily the U.S. guarantee percentages of the loans.  The Nation, as in Greece in this instance, then borrows money from civilian banks with those loans guaranteed.

When they default the government is then on the hook to pay the bank they borrowed the money from.Of course here in the U.S. that will be seen as "bailing out the banks again" and thus we need even more GD regulation like frakin Dodd-Frank. 

128
Obama blinked.

"President Obama could agree to a short-term hike of the debt ceiling only if there are concrete plans in place to move quickly with a grand bargain..."

Plus Obama's insisting on it being a "comprehensive" plan. In other words, it must include tax hikes. But who cares what Obama wants. He NEEDS an increase in the debt ceiling and will sign any bill that gets to his desk.

129 136 Obama has had sub-50% approval for 10 consecutive quarters... http://pwire.at/oN9RQd

Posted by: '80sBaby at July 21, 2011 10:41 AM (o2lIv)

and the racism has increased in proportion to the decrease in his approval.

130

If you want to know, look at the Irish.

Last month I was in Clifden, County Galway, for a wedding.  The only sign of the problem in Ireland were some deals on real estate.  The west of Ireland tends to be the poorer part of Eire, so they won't be affected as much if Ireland defaults.  A tourist town, but the people were pretty upbeat.

And two:

It is only an Irishman's abiding sense of tragedy that gets him thru occasional periods of joy.

Whatever happens in Ireland...the bogtrotters will do what's necessary to get thru it, as the Greeks would not. 

 

131
Sink might have more viewers on his yootoob vids than he did at MSNBC.

/shrugs

132 @124 Indeed, though you will note the only concrete cuts currently proposed are to the military, the military, and the military.  Oh, and we'll tweak the SSI COLA too, until AARP runs nasty ads in our district.

Please excuse me if I am suffering from Peace Dividend flashbacks.  Anyone who was in the surface navy during the 1990s (i.e. was gone all the time covering the jobs that used to be done by the ships we scrapped) knows all about what happens to the military when the geniuses with meat axes go hunting for money to prop up their entitlement spending.  The problem is not with cutting the military per se, but with cutting the military while maintaining the same mission load.  Sure you save money this year, but you wear out your personnel and equipment faster, which means you have to spend more a few years down the line.

It would be sort of nice if we could visit all the other rice bowls before raiding the military.  Again.

133 Speaking of doom, The Corner NRO found this headline from the deep, dark history of 2008, the last year before Obama saved the economy:

"U.S. Budget Deficit Hits Record $438 Billion For Year"

And as long as I am posting, also from NRO, a description of England before the Great War:

"Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. He could exchange his money for any other currency without restriction or limit. He could buy goods from any country in the world on the same terms as he bought goods at home. For that matter, a foreigner could spend his life in this country without permit and without informing the police. Unlike the countries of the European continent, the state did not require its citizens to perform military service. An Englishman could enlist, if he chose, in the regular army, the navy, or the territorials. He could also ignore, if he chose, the demands of national defence. Substantial householders were occasionally called on for jury service. Otherwise, only those helped the state who wished to do so. The Englishman paid taxes on a modest scale: nearly £200 million in 1913-14, or rather less than 8 per cent. of the national income. … broadly speaking, the state acted only to help those who could not help themselves. It left the adult citizen alone."

134

No.....it is the evil ATM machine's that are stealing all the jobs.

 

Hey!  We need to eat, too!

135

It's FDR all over again - I've read articles that speculate that the Great Depression wouldn't have lasted as long as it did had he not been in office for 3+ terms.

FDR benefitted for a long time from a very aggressive propoganda machine in both the press (beat reporters, in particular) and academia (no further explanation needed).   The culture of credentialism--that a college degree automatically confers expertise--saw its genesis in his administration with the "Brain Trust," and there's been a very concerted effort in the universities since then to tow the Democratic party line as a result. 

It's actually quite similar to what occurred in England following the death of Queen Elizabeth.  For several hundred years, her reign was portrayed as a "golden age" of peace, harmony, and prosperity, and arguments to the contrary were simply dismissed as crackpot.  It's only been recently that further investigation has shown that things were not quite as rosy as was assumed. 

136
> 107  Both of those SOBs should be in JAIL. And piss on Scott Brown for giving them the vote they needed to break the vote on this. 

Posted by: Vic at July 21, 2011 10:18 AM (M9Ie6)

He shoots, he SCOOOOOOOOOOOOORes!



(Except I like the term "Crony Capitalism."  It's accurate.)

137 How much you wanna bet that someone, at some time in the near future, finds a way to blame Rick Scott for the job losses attributable to the scuttling of our shuttle program?

138
Did FDR milk the blame-game on his predecessor like Obama is doing?

139 The waters for this debt deal are so poluted, that "all the king's horse and all the king's men" at the EPA, couldn't put a deal together again.

If you recall, back in March, as part of the price to pass a ginormous omnibus spending bill for the remainder of FY 2011, the republicans asked for $38 billion in cuts.  After much yelling, screaming and gnashing of teeth, the Democrats/President offered $6.5 billion in cuts, and the federal government was at peace.
Then came the headlines, "DemocratsÂ’ “$6.5 Billion” in Spending Cuts Actually $4.7 Billion," followed by shrinking numbers.  And finally, when the dust settled, the budget cuts, we were told, were really only worth $352 million.

There is this old adage .. "fool me once, shame on you.  fool me twice, shame on me."

140 @138  Heh, play a perversely conservative version of the "tax increase now, spending cuts later pinkyswear promise" game with him on this one then.

Aug 2nd, 2011: Sure, Mr. President, we will get working on that comprehensive plan right away.  We will put our top men on it.  Top.  Men.

July 2nd, 2012: Yeah, sorry about those intransigent House Republicans.  The nerve of that lot.  Well, we can't do anything now that we are entering campaigning season, and, let me be clear, you wouldn't want a false choice of default or cutting off your base from the teat, would you?  Here, sign this, it will get us through March 2013.

141 Bill Clinton teaches JEF how to deal with the Repubs:

http://tinyurl.com/3el7bdk

142 White House threatens veto of GOP bill curbing Consumer Bureau powers

143

Did FDR milk the blame-game on his predecessor like Obama is doing?

 

He did, indeed!  I watched the entire thing on television!

144 Wall Street still believes debt deal is inevitable

“As a practical matter I don’t think there’s anyone on Wall Street, speaking for the financial professionals, who doesn’t believe that ultimately people who are being difficult on Capitol Hill are going to say uncle,” said Daniel Alpert of Westwood Capital. [...]

Alpert is far from alone. Tim Ryan, CEO and chairman of the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association, says thereÂ’s a straightforward reason why markets so far havenÂ’t been responding to the ups and downs of the debt talks. 

“Because nobody thinks this is going to happen,” Ryan said of a default and downgrading of the U.S.’s AAA credit rating. “Nobody believes this will happen.”

145 Did FDR milk the blame-game on his predecessor like Obama is doing?

FDR, hell, you forgetting Pelosi and Kerry with "the worst economy if fifty years" bullshit in 2004?

146 I know we are doomed.  Comic Con is here in SD and just trying to navigate around these freaks to get into the parking garage is a nightmare.  They are oblivious to cars, police, everything.  I want to run down someone in a Hello Kitty outfit so bad today.

147 155

Did FDR milk the blame-game on his predecessor like Obama is doing?

 He did, indeed!  I watched the entire thing on television!

Posted by: Joe Biden at July 21, 2011 10:55 AM (zgZzy)

Just before I won World War One by flying to Tokyo on the Concorde and short-sheeting Hitler's bed.

148
I remember John Kerry's cockamamie "Middle-Class Misery Index."

It was so manipulated that even the media debunked it.

149 157 Did FDR milk the blame-game on his predecessor like Obama is doing?

FDR, hell, you forgetting Pelosi and Kerry with "the worst economy if fifty years" bullshit in 2004?

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at July 21, 2011 10:56 AM (agD4m)

Truman and the "Do Nothing" Congress?

150 I'm going to go off the deep end for a bit here and say that JugEars had something partially right, though for the wrong reasons.
 
We have reached a technological stage in the West where most tasks can be automated. This includes even many 'expert' tasks. Yeah yeah, there are new jobs created assembling maintaining and programming the machines but try and picture the cashier at McDs (that can't even figure correct change) doing these tasks. Take something like auto repair; cars are built better and need less labor to maintain per mile driven now. Or look at meter readers, soon to be an extinct job.
 
Large companies are continuing to show decent profits mainly because of continued productivity gains, which is really a measure of output per employee hour. Reduce the number of hours with various automation strategies and presto -- instant profit and less employees. Those businesses with high personnel costs (much of this due to regulatory and mandated benefits) are doing less well.
 
So the question then comes up -- where do all these replaced and displaced workers go? Keep in mind if the job involves cheap and fairly mindless labor, there are 6 billion people in the rest of the world willing to work for peanuts.
 
I'm not saying that this is the only reason for continued high unemployment but it is a factor. The thing is, I don't see any new large scale labor needs to replace these low skill jobs. Add more TSA workers? Ninja please, I want them almost all shitcanned. Maybe replacing all our coal fired power plants with nukes would create a big enough tide over effect to wait for the next big thing that needs lots of bodies. One thing is for sure, energy use creates prosperity. Chart after chart shows the relation between national power use and national income. Energy use is a labor magnifier.

151 Comic Con is here in SD and just trying to navigate around these freaks to get into the parking garage is a nightmare.

Post pics of nerdy babes in skimpy costumes!

152 Check out my update #3 - Laura Ingraham's baggage robbed in NJ airport. Flying in the US these days just isn't worth the fucking hassle any more.

153 “Because nobody thinks this is going to happen,” Random Wall Street Dunce said of a Housing Market Collapse and downgrading of the Collateralized Debt's AAA credit rating. “Nobody believes this will happen.”

Yeah, go sit on your tuffet, Nostradamus.

154
yeah but did FDR constantly blame Hoover for the shitty economy, even after FDR's first term?

155

It's Limited Liability COMPANY, not Corporation.  A corporation is a completely different animal that has limited liability built into it. 

Sorry, just formed two LLCs this morning for a client. 

And I am an irritating scold.

156 So the question then comes up -- where do all these replaced and displaced workers go? Keep in mind if the job involves cheap and fairly mindless labor, there are 6 billion people in the rest of the world willing to work for peanuts.

I'll point out that expansion of wealth leads to more opportunities for jobs and entrepreneurs. Grow the economy, more people can find work...

157

Posted by: Waterhouse at July 21, 2011 10:59 AM (fFw5M)

 

I like your instincts.

158 164 Check out my update #3 - Laura Ingraham's baggage robbed in NJ airport. Flying in the US these days just isn't worth the fucking hassle any more.

Posted by: Monty at July 21, 2011 11:01 AM (/0a60)

NJ State Prison is located next to Newark-Liberty Airport. Work release program...

159 I'm convinced they're deliberately attempting to price me out of their market and push me into the ranks of the "universally insured".

Unless you're really expensive to insure, I really doubt it.  What would their motivation be? 

So the question then comes up -- where do all these replaced and displaced workers go?

Well, in our current paradigm- to the government teat.  In a rational world, there would be constant innovation which would constantly need new workers- and that's where they'd go.

It's rather like asking what happened to all the buggy makers when automobiles became ubiquitous.  It took far more people to make enough buggies for everyone who wanted one than it did to make automobiles- where did those "extra" workers go?

The answer is "other industries."  Some of them started businesses, some of them started assembling cars, some of them became milk-men, or whatever.

160 Balrog's correct.  The downgrade is already unavoidable.  It's more like watching people fight over whether it'll be this month or a few month from now.

161

UPDATE 3: If this isn't a signpost on the way to DOOM, nothing is: Laura Ingraham's baggage robbed at NJ airport. (In Newark. I might have known. That joint is an utter pisshole.)

Damn Newark Airport!  I hate that place.  It's filthy and hideous.  I was only there for half an hour between flights last year and immediately wanted to take a shower.  And as I've mentioned before, the bathrooms are something out of a ghetto Burger King.  All that's missing is the mob-like beating of a transvestite.

162 It's Limited Liability COMPANY, not Corporation.

DOOM can be anything it wants to be. That's just how DOOM rolls.

(But yeah, LLC is "Limited Liability Company", not "Corporation".)

163 I swear I hit that 's' key.

164 Words of wisdom from Allen West:

"Anyone with an Obama 2012 bumper sticker, I recognize them as a threat to the gene pool."

165 Newark is such a lovely city.  It's a very memorable drive at night.

166 >>I want to run down someone in a Hello Kitty outfit so bad today. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a time that I don't want to run down someone in a Hello Kitty outfit.

167 Damn Newark Airport!  I hate that place.  It's filthy and hideous.  I was only there for half an hour between flights last year and immediately wanted to take a shower.  And as I've mentioned before, the bathrooms are something out of a ghetto Burger King.  All that's missing is the mob-like beating of a transvestite.

Posted by: MWR at July 21, 2011 11:05 AM (4df7R)

But we have bears!

NORTH CALDWELL — A small bear took a dip in a township resident’s backyard pool near the peak of the 90-degree heat Tuesday, police said.

The bear, about 100 pounds, was seen by a resident with its back feet on the pool steps at 2:20 p.m., said police spokesman Sgt. Bill Texas.

168 Posted by: trainer at July 21, 2011 10:44 AM (Rojyk)

I'll send 'em to America!

169

NJ State Prison is located next to Newark-Liberty Airport.

 

You can get a ride there from downtown Newark for under a dollar.  Making your entire trip to Newark Liberty's  Long Term Parking Terminal not only economical, but quite profitable.

170 [COMMENT DELETED]

171
We have money to burn. Because in Massachusetts the governor is again pushing for in-state tuition for illegals.

This is the big "disconnect." Obama is pretending to deal with the deficit and insists on higher taxes to pay down the debt. And at the same time Obama is pushing the DREAM Act which is a spending program for foreigners.

If we could only connect these two actions...

172

DOOM can be anything it wants to be. That's just how DOOM rolls.

 

You need to market a 'DOOM' ring. 

 ...like the old 'mood' rings of the seventies.

173 177 Newark is such a lovely city.  It's a very memorable drive at night.

Posted by: cherry π at July 21, 2011 11:07 AM (OhYCU)

I worked in Newark for four years. The Ironbound section is great. It's a working-class neighborhood with excellent Portuguese food. That being said. avoid any other area on pain of death.

174 [COMMENT DELETED]

175 Yeah, yeah, but none of that's worse than gay marriage or recreational marijuana use.

176

Newark is such a lovely city.

 

Rennaisance City, please.

177 172 Balrog's correct.  The downgrade is already unavoidable.  It's more like watching people fight over whether it'll be this month or a few month from now.

It is, but it's troublesome that there are still people on Wall Street who think that it isn't. They're still insisting things are going to be okay because Congress is going to make sure that they will be, because Congress can't fail on something big. Well, what happens if/when they do? It certainly doesn't look like they're going to get a solid comprehensive deal anytime soon, short of a miracle.  

178

Posted by: mpfs at July 21, 2011 10:56 AM (iYbLN)

 

Ah, stop yer complaining. You live in San Diego for chrissakes! Sure, it's part of California, but it's San Diego!

I was there for a week back in March and caled my boss and told him I wasn't coming home.

Of course, it would be an even better place with a few less Hello Kitty wearing folks running around....

179 Posted by: model_1066 at July 21, 2011 11:09 AM (2j/Mv)

Watch it, model_1066. Ace doesn't like that shit. At all.

180 Posted by: Cory Booker - Racist and Anti-Semite and Media Whore

FIFY

181 (Except I like the term "Crony Capitalism."  It's accurate.)

Posted by: K~Bob at July 21, 2011 10:51 AM (c2fN9)

What we are doing here, and in the past, has NOTHING to do with capitalism. It is pure outright corruption.

In any case, am hitting the beers and about to start new copy of Tombstone on Blu_Ray so I will be in and out.

182
Gov Deval Patrick was part of a shameless display yesterday. He and a few "poor" illegals spoke at hearings about how unfair it is that they have to pay out-of-state tuition.

Patrick said later we have to remember that these are "real people" were talking about.

On the radio this morning a woman made a good point: "What about us? Are we not real people?

183

I worked in Newark for four years. The Ironbound section is great. It's a working-class neighborhood with excellent Portuguese food. That being said. avoid any other area on pain of death.

Me, too.

Emilia's. That's where you eat.

184 Yeah, yeah, but none of that's worse than gay marriage or recreational marijuana use.

Posted by: SFGoth

 

First, it's medicinial, not recreational. Pot heads are doing it for the sick children.

Second, I doubt that it was the idea of anyone here, save perhaps you, to waste one minute of governmental time to either issue.

185

Unemployment is high and mouths must be fed.

How many of the geniuses from NASA will wind up recruited into the space programs of other, perhaps, less friendly nations?

186 177 Newark is such a lovely city.  It's a very memorable drive at night.

Posted by: cherry ð at July 21, 2011 11:07 AM (OhYCU)

I bet.  *shudder*  I wonder, does Newark or East Orange have a more engaging nightlife?

187 Napoleon is always right

188

How long before all those NASA engineers and the contractors who support space travel are included in this weekly jobless number.

hey Rocket Scientist, McDonalds is hiring!

Welcome to OBLahBLahland!

Next time I see a OBLahBLah voter I intend to ask them to give me one good solid reason to vote for that Jackass!

Maybe those Rocket Scientists can be converted to Muslim outreach works by OBLahBLahs re-education commission.

189 Posted by: The Robot Devil at July 21, 2011 11:12 AM (136wp)

And the really scary part is that he is the best mayor they have had in years.

190

How long before all those NASA engineers and the contractors who support space travel are included in this weekly jobless number.

 

Those numbers will belong to Rick Scott and Rick Perry.  No skin off Obama's nose.

191

I like your instincts.

Posted by: garrett

garrett,

I'll keep on the lookout for a Judy Garland look a like that sings "clang, clang, clang goes the trolley."

192

TRENTON — Three major public worker unions’ committees stopped donating to state lawmakers while the legislators — who face elections in November — were preparing to vote on a landmark overhaul of pensions and health benefits.

....

“We’ll remember in November,” shouted angry workers who gathered in viewing galleries. Some union leaders are especially angry because their groups had already poured financial resources into those Democrats’ coffers for the November elections.

193 Ah Newark...where my son spent 9 hours delayed because some asswipe had to say goodbye to his girlfriend just one more time and a TSA agent couldn't be bothered to stay at his post.

194 There are many airports in Africa that are nicer then Newark.

195

One bonus of a new Greek diaspora:

 

Styrofoam Greek Columns can be had for a steal!  More competition and what not!

 

Oh, and my dad use to work in Newark for a few years.  Lots of polish ladies worked in his plant.  They use to make him pierogies.  Delish!

196 NBC: Reid calls House 'untoward' for taking weekend off http://dlvr.it/c2f0h

This coming from a man who presides over a body which hasn't held as many sessions as the House until this month. 

197 201 Posted by: The Robot Devil at July 21, 2011 11:12 AM (136wp)

And the really scary part is that he is the best mayor they have had in years.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at July 21, 2011 11:15 AM (LH6ir)

Ain't that the truth. Pathetic.

198

But we have bears!

NORTH CALDWELL — A small bear took a dip in a township resident’s backyard pool near the peak of the 90-degree heat Tuesday, police said.

The bear, about 100 pounds, was seen by a resident with its back feet on the pool steps at 2:20 p.m., said police spokesman Sgt. Bill Texas.

Posted by: The Robot Devil

Bears gotta swim....birds gotta fly...

199 Posted by: Soap MacTavish at July 21, 2011 11:16 AM (vbh31)

If, by "compliance" you mean, "Giving in to ObamaCare" I guess maybe... but mostly not (as long as they're making money off of you, and "complying" with all the regs, they have no reason to price you out).

If, by "compliance" you mean the cost of complying with the new regs... well, then it wouldn't be "deliberately trying to price you out" it would be trying to recoup their costs of compliance.

200 Oh, and WSJ had a short little blurb this a.m. about the hundreds of landlords that leased space to Borders and how they are in for a world of hurt.  As big box stores like Best Buy are scaling down, there's no real demand for renting big spaces like that.

201
re: Reid

What's his problem; the House passed their bill.

The House did its job. It's now up to Reid to do HIS job.

202 “We’ll remember in November,” shouted angry workers who gathered in viewing galleries.

Just remember:
Tea Partiers saying "Remember November" in 2010: It's an act of sedition!  They secretly want to blow up Parliament Congress!
Union thugs saying "Remember November" in 2011: It's legitimate discourse!

203 UPDATE 2: The bicycle overlords. Heh. "We put in bike lanes and traffic-calming devices and yet the traffic gets WORSE! That means we're just going to have to increase the number of bike lanes and levy a tax for light rail, which goes 30 mph and only serves a fraction of the commuting population. That'll do the trick!"

204

This coming from a man who presides over a body which hasn't held as many sessions as the House until this month.  

 

How about all the time Democrats have taken off since they refused to write a budget?  Yeah, asshat!

 

205 As big box stores like Best Buy are scaling down, there's no real demand for renting big spaces like that. This is good news for our growing industry.

206 joncelli - with a little more indignation and quiver, you'll be set for a government job

207

How about all the time Democrats have taken off since they refused to write a budget?  Yeah, asshat!

 Posted by: runningrn at July 21, 2011 11:22 AM (ihSHD)

And need we bring up the infamy of President Putt Putt?

208 @197 Hell, I'll help Jim Hansen pack, and drive his sorry ass to the airport.

209 221 @197 Hell, I'll help Jim Hansen pack, and drive his sorry ass to the airport.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at July 21, 2011 11:23 AM (agD4m)

Just not Newark-Liberty International Airport.

210 OT, first "Captain America" review:

http://tinyurl.com/3qf7guo

211 [COMMENT DELETED]

212 Balrog, its the actual rocketteers and space scientists that are getting the axe; the guys who murder statistics to pad their investment accounts are safe -- until President Perry is sworn in and appoints real IGs

213 I wonder which city will be the site of the first widespread rioting and looting? Will it be old favorites like Newark and LA or will some of the newly boned cities like Memphis take the lead?

214 If you are going to go through all the effort of rioting, you might as well lott, too.

215 Did FDR milk the blame-game on his predecessor like Obama is doing?


Dude.

216

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at July 21, 2011 10:45 AM (agD4m)

Yep.... and according to reports I've been reading lately, Material Readiness of the Fleet is HORRIBLE... with years of maintenance backlog'd.... and ships going to sea with Major Systems down.... its been slipping for years but if reaching a crises point...

So... who do we put in charge of the Pentagon? Yep, the same dam Admirals who allowed Material Readiness to slide in the first place.

217

Obama has had sub-50% approval for 10 consecutive quarters... http://pwire.at/oN9RQd
Posted by: '80sBaby at July 21, 2011 10:41 AM (o2lIv)

Dude has only been in office for 10 1/2 quarters......

218 @225 I know.  I was being "ironic."

Of course the actual engineers and wrench turners are getting the shaft, while the jerkoffs who push electrons around still get work.

Deja vu.  See, Shipbuilding, US, Twentieth Century.

219 #216, If you lived in an old dense city you'd understand that traffic calming is a good idea. The streets were laid out for walking, horse drawn carts, streetcars, and to some extent bicycles before cars came onto the scene. Trying to shove high speed and volume traffic into old cities doesn't work and it's best to focus on other modes of transportation other than cars.

That said, every city principally laid out after the advent on the automobile isn't going to work too well with added bike lanes and pedestrian infrastructure because of the lack of density. Everything is so spread out that walking or biking everyone isn't practical. Nor is public transit going to be anything than a boondoggle, because once again there isn't sufficient density to make it anywhere near cost efficient for the population served.

America would be better off making cities more dense and preserving arable farmland rather than continuing to sprawl endlessly. It is a huge was of resources and time for people to have to drive an hour to get to work or spend a gallon of gas just to buy groceries. However, given the tendency for snob zoning in the suburbs and nanny staters trying to dictate or socially engineer every aspect of life in cities, I don't see that working out too well either.

220 226 I wonder which city will be the site of the first widespread rioting and looting? Will it be old favorites like Newark and LA or will some of the newly boned cities like Memphis take the lead?

Posted by: JackStraw at July 21, 2011 11:27 AM (TMB3S)

I'm guessing LA, Hispanic vs. Black. There is no love lost between them.

221 This is the grim truth of investment losses vs gains -- one bad year in the markets can take several up years to make up.

Are you telling us that a 20% loss cannot be overcome by an immediate 20% gain? But it's the same number!!!

-- The Innumerati

222 227 If you are going to go through all the effort of rioting, you might as well lott, too.

Posted by: garrett at July 21, 2011 11:29 AM (I2bQp)

Sounds kinky.  I'm in!

223 217 How about all the time Democrats have taken off since they refused to write a budget?  Yeah, asshat!

Chuckie Schumer was bragging yesterday that he's the one who stopped the Senate Ds from doing more work on a budget. Apparently he told some D colleagues that doing their jobs would have cut-back on their ability to use the House budget as a weapon. All concerned came to agree with that assessment.

224 234 This is the grim truth of investment losses vs gains -- one bad year in the markets can take several up years to make up.

Are you telling us that a 20% loss cannot be overcome by an immediate 20% gain? But it's the same number!!!

-- The Innumerati

Posted by: No Whining at July 21, 2011 11:32 AM (HmCnI)

Hey, 20 plus -20 equals 40! Double win for Obama!

225

So the question then comes up -- where do all these replaced and displaced workers go? Keep in mind if the job involves cheap and fairly mindless labor, there are 6 billion people in the rest of the world willing to work for peanuts.
 Posted by: GnuBreed at July 21, 2011 10:58 AM (ENKCw)

 

I've been asking the same thing.  Don't expect an answer.  Nobody really has one.  Trying to discuss that issue results in more ostrich like behavior than you can imagine.  Nobody knows (or is willing to admit) what must be done to address the situation.  

The traditional and time-tested principle, where one works for his bread, is becoming unworkable due to lack of real opportunity.  This worsens continually as we make/import more and more humans, of whom we need fewer and fewer.  If we slash the lowest wages lower and lower, to compete with the asian slaves, all it will do is create a deflationary death spiral while reducing most people to squallid and miserable poverty.  You need consumers, but when everyone is driven to the absolute lowest worldwide bidder, that means that if you have low skills, or are redundant, you're working for food and shelter and basic utilities and that's about it.  Consumption thus collapses, more people are out of work, and on it goes - swirling round the toilet until the whole structure has consumed itself and we have to start over. 

Meanwhile the libtards have annihilated the core of the culture that allowed us to build up modern civilization in the first place.   If the government fails to supply enough bread and circus rations to the ghettos, they'll rise up and try to eat the rest of us.  If we win, then things can recover.  If we lose (a choice we seem ever more likely to embrace) then good luck ever rebuilding.

226 FEMA Partners with DHS encouraging minorities Americans to call police to report white terrorists suspicious behavior.

nothing new

227 226 I wonder which city will be the site of the first widespread rioting and looting? Will it be old favorites like Newark and LA or will some of the newly boned cities like Memphis take the lead?

Posted by: JackStraw at July 21, 2011 11:27 AM (TMB3S)

That's an interesting philosophical question.  Cities like Detroit and Chicago would seem like prime candidates for riots and looting, but they've been boned for so long, and subject to low-scale riots and looting for equally long, that the people may not bother themselves to really throw a brick through their cities' proverbial and literal windows without another city leading the charge.  Will that city be one of the freshly minted COTB (Cities of the Terminally Boned), such as Memphis?  Or leftist pits of insanity like San Francisco, that have been regulated and restricted and redistricted to the point that they have to blow up at some point, like someone trying to tighten a corset around a balloon.

I'm just glad I don't live in any of them.

228 [COMMENT DEPLETED]

229 How many of the geniuses from NASA...

NASA hired/kept the less than genius. They couldn't even design a proper means to land a portable camera on Mars without it breaking on landing. Oops, balloons pop on sharp rocks.

230

I'm just glad I don't live in any of them.

Posted by: MWR at July 21, 2011 11:35 AM (4df7R)

Does Detroit even have enough people to hold a riot?

231 @229 Another Commander Salamander fan, I presume.  He does get to the point, doesn't he.

Yup, the Navy is boned.  We are fortunate that nobody except for the PLA Navy is really shaping up to be a blue water threat, but I think it not to long before they could plausibly expect to assert control of pretty much everything they are claiming is their sphere of influence.

Throw in the Russians getting a little froggy, some cyber warfare, and maybe a surprise strike on our concentrated-in-only-four-major-ports surface Navy, and we could be SOL.

232 230 Dude has only been in office for 10 1/2 quarters......

You're right. The headline on Political Wire should read "6 consecutive quarters".

233 240 FEMA Partners with DHS encouraging minorities Americans to call police to report white terrorists suspicious behavior.

nothing new

Posted by: maverick muse at July 21, 2011 11:34 AM (lpWVn)

Funny how all the 'terrorists' were White people...

234

Does Detroit even have enough people to hold a riot?

Posted by: Tami

 

Good point. And notice that the latest wave of attacks consists of roving bands. Fewer organizantional skills and numbers required.

 

All of this is an arguement against increasing population density, rather than for it. I'll take the sprawl, thanks.

235
I'd love to read a follow-up story about those hippie/yuppies who bought houses in Detroit for $6K.

As you know, the houses were stripped. So the new owners used the opportunity to make them "green."

I wonder what happened...

236

Does Detroit even have enough people to hold a riot?

Posted by: Tami at July 21, 2011 11:36 AM (X6akg)

They'd import some AFL-CIO thugs from out of state.  Then they'd complain about having to pay them time and a half to loot.

237 Re Laura Ingraham having her necklace stolen at Newark, years ago we were returning from vacation in Italy.  Watched my luggage loaded onto the plane in Rome.  We arrived in NY and connected to Atlanta on Delta.  Upon arriving in Atlanta, we were informed my luggage hadn't made the connection.  Delta delivered my bag the next day, with the lock broken and a CD of music I had bought missing.

I don't trust the TSA or the 'tards who handle our luggage as far as I can throw them.

238

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at July 21, 2011 11:37 AM (agD4m)

Nope... just a Ret. USN guy... who has friends and a Son on Active duty....

 

239 I vote Philly/New York for large-scale rioting. there are still a lot of people in them. It will be a two-fer - maybe pulling DC into it too.

240 I'd love to read a follow-up story about those hippie/yuppies who bought houses in Detroit for $6K.

As you know, the houses were stripped. So the new owners used the opportunity to make them "green."

I wonder what happened...

Posted by: Soothsayer

They paid money for those houses? Wilmington, Delaware offered houses for a dollar under a homesteading program if they were renovated and occupied for three years. It really improved parts of the city.

241 My name is Papa Editor and I've recently become a DOOM!-aholic.

It's the choice of a new boned generation. Welcome!

242 @232 Horsefeathers.  One thing we do not lack for is arrable farmland, so your "let's pack everybody on top of each other in urban hellholes" is a NO SALE.

Urban areas = Nanny states = Democrat voters = Elected Democrats = Stuff far worse than wasting a gallon of gas to get groceries.

Yeah, let's supercharge that fucking equation.

243 249
I'd love to read a follow-up story about those hippie/yuppies who bought houses in Detroit for $6K.

As you know, the houses were stripped. So the new owners used the opportunity to make them "green."

I wonder what happened...

Posted by: Soothsayer at July 21, 2011 11:39 AM (G/zuv)

Don't you know? It's a gold mine!!! Invest now!!!! (Do I need a /sarc flag?)
http://tinyurl.com/3cfxgqh

244 America would be better off making cities more dense and preserving arable farmland rather than continuing to sprawl endlessly. It is a huge was of resources and time for people to have to drive an hour to get to work or spend a gallon of gas just to buy groceries.

Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 11:32 AM (ijjAe)

 

Screw densification.  That's got to be the most dehumanizing force at work in modern society.  The American suburb, minus the damn homeowners associations, is the highest form to human existence that most people can ever hope to achieve.  Better to decentralize the work places.  Spread out production.  Indeed, make everyone live on more land so they can have a septic system, some trees, and maybe a plot to grow stuff on.  We still have vast amounts of unoccupied land, and if we had the brains to stop immigration and let the population contract we'd have even more open space.

245 "If the government fails to supply enough bread and circus rations to the ghettos, they'll rise up and try to eat the rest of us."

Other than the hard core professional criminal class, most residents of the ghetto only know food from take out restaurants and the microwave. The 300-400lb blobs living off processed everything wouldn't last long without a government check allowing them to purchase rear to eat food. 

Yes it's a stereotype, but I see it ever damn day here in Boston.

246

Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 11:32 AM (ijjAe)

 

I Blame California.

247 @232 Horsefeathers.  One thing we do not lack for is arrable farmland, so your "let's pack everybody on top of each other in urban hellholes" is a NO SALE.

Urban areas = Nanny states = Democrat voters = Elected Democrats = Stuff far worse than wasting a gallon of gas to get groceries.

Yeah, let's supercharge that fucking equation.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth

 

Agreed. I have one response to the call for further density: SEPTA. It's a freaking pit of scum and villany. Cities and unions breed such stupidity. Every time they go on strike, they drive away permanently a percentage of their ridership. But their costs never go down. Sound familiar?

248 #259 should have read "ready to eat food"

249

Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 11:45 AM (ijjAe)

 

So poor, they're fat, huh?

250 It doesn't matter what The Donkey Show (and liberals) want - New Urbanism is a no-go. People BY NATURE do not want to be on top of each other. Sprawl (which I think is entirely a Good Thing) is going to happen regardless of his/their wishes. Can't be stopped. Workplaces are becoming diffuse; urban planning is a bad joke; technology is clearly supporting Army of Davids type thinking here in the US.

251 253 I vote Philly/New York for large-scale rioting.

there are still a lot of people in them. It will be a two-fer - maybe pulling DC into it too.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at July 21, 2011 11:41 AM (SB0V2)

You know... it might turn into a full-scale East Coast megalopolis riot, from Boston to Miami.  Especially if it were to happen in summer during a heat wave.  Someone's landlord doesn't respond fast enough to fix a broken air conditioner in downtown Philadelphia, the renter goes and busts the landlord's window, the landlord retaliates with a baseball bat to the renter's car, the renter starts throwing produce from the nearby neighborhood market at the landlord, the shopkeeper tries to intervene and gets shoved, the shopkeeper's son comes to his aid... and someone just happens to have their camera phone recording the whole thing.

It goes viral, racial and class divides start blazing, and the whole eastern seaboard goes up in smoke.

252 Mark Knoller:

Speaker Boehner calls CutCap&Balance Bill a responsible way forward on the deficit and urges Senate to pass it.

At news conf, Boehner says the deficit ball is in the president's court "and has been there for some time."

Boehner calls on Pres Obama to "step up and work with us" on spending cuts and reforms that Americans demanding.

253

 and maybe a plot to grow stuff on.

 

Not on my watch!

254

They paid money for those houses? Wilmington, Delaware offered houses for a dollar under a homesteading program if they were renovated and occupied for three years. It really improved parts of the city.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 21, 2011 11:42 AM (326rv)

David Bromberg opened a business selling upscale violins. I think he also hosts an open-mike. Read about it in Fretboard Journal.

http://tinyurl.com/ybjo3rg

255 Screw densification.  That's got to be the most dehumanizing force at work in modern society.  The American suburb, minus the damn homeowners associations, is the highest form to human existence that most people can ever hope to achieve.  Better to decentralize the work places.  Spread out production.  Indeed, make everyone live on more land so they can have a septic system, some trees, and maybe a plot to grow stuff on.  We still have vast amounts of unoccupied land, and if we had the brains to stop immigration and let the population contract we'd have even more open space.

You seem to think that everyone is suburbia is living in some sort of self sufficient mini farm. They sure as Hell aren't and if the supply of gasoline ever was interrupted most of suburbia would be in very deep shit. There's a big difference from real self sustaining rural living and the green acres lifestyle sold in this country in the postwar period.

256 Philly - we've had a rash of attacks on women here in Society Hill and Bella Vista/Queen Village. Underplayed by the local media, but happening. I know personally that crime is way up in South Philly - minor burglaries and such - again, not really much of a police response. And it's HOT. And people are GRUMPY. And they feel powerless, and the Mayor is an IDIOT. It's a little bit scary around here.

257 It's a little bit scary around here.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at July 21, 2011 11:49 AM (SB0V2)

Just keep yourself and your loved ones safe, BlackOrchid.

258 cities like Memphis take the lead?

Posted by: JackStraw at July 21, 2011 11:27 AM

...ahem, July 20, 1967

"Most revolutions don't take place where people are depressed, but where there is hope like in the South during the 1960s." That's as dumb as revisionism gets.

259 They sure as Hell aren't and if the supply of gasoline ever was interrupted most of suburbia would be in very deep shit.

So would dense cities. How do you think food gets there?

260 Read about it in Fretboard Journal.

I love that mag. Pure Grade-A guitar porn.

261

David Bromberg opened a business selling upscale violins. I think he also hosts an open-mike. Read about it in Fretboard Journal.

http://tinyurl.com/ybjo3rg

Here'es a link to the article:

http://tinyurl.com/3eqcc8e

262

Here's a random thought: as a compassionate measure, spending cuts should be accompanied by reductions in minimum wage, so those laid off gov't workers can find a competitive job they are qualified for.

(Any present company excluded, of course).

263

They sure as Hell aren't and if the supply of gasoline ever was interrupted most of suburbia would be in very deep shit.

 

no.  they wouldn't. 

and good luck heating those 20 floor walk-ups when there's no Heating Oil.

264 @259 Oh, not so much here.  I see middle classish-looking folks with mani- and pedi-cures, good quality clothing and late model upscale automobiles-using their EBT cards to buy stuff I only get when I am splurging.

265 Oh, MWR, don't worry about me, I'm long gone from my hometown (well, about 40 miles west of it now). But thanks! I do worry about friends and family still there. (esp Wyatt who has a rough job in a rough town in a roughish area of it) My brother said people are saying it's very reminiscent of "Do the Right Thing" around town at the moment. That's probably not exactly good, right? Hopefully just a pizza place burns down!

266

"Most revolutions don't take place where people are depressed, but where there is hope like in the South during the 1960s." That's as dumb as revisionism gets.

Posted by: maverick muse at July 21, 2011 11:51 AM (lpWVn)

WOW.

That spin is so hard, it may actually have slowed the rotation of the earth.

267 196 Yeah, yeah, but none of that's worse than gay marriage or recreational marijuana use.

Posted by: SFGoth

First, it's medicinial, not recreational. Pot heads are doing it for the sick children.

Second, I doubt that it was the idea of anyone here, save perhaps you, to waste one minute of governmental time to either issue.

///

First, it's medicinal, not medicinial, unless you're referring to cannabadiol, in which case that's kind of a cool play on words.  Second, I haven't once had the idea to waste any government time on either issue:  the government should butt out and spend no time on either.

268 274 Read about it in Fretboard Journal.

I love that mag. Pure Grade-A guitar porn.

The mandolin porn is pretty hot, too.

269
89 up here in eastern MA
"feels like" 97

no, it feels like a volcano's asscrack

270 You seem to think that everyone is suburbia is living in some sort of self sufficient mini farm.

Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 11:48 AM (ijjAe)

 

No - that wasn't really the point I wanted to make.  That's why I said "Indeed, make everyone live on more land..."  Because suburban lots are not big enough.  We need more spread, not less. 

Yes - if the gas supply is cut, big problems ensue.  But there would have to be a pretty systemic break down for something like that to happen.  I would want to be as far away from dense cities as possible in that case.  Plus there would still (presumably) be natural gas and hopefully some electricity, so basics of life could be sustained.  In the suburb where I live there are two grocery stores within walking distance, and plenty of people still have well water.  Heck, while I don't use it, I still have my well pipe accessible in the basement. 

  

271

 Pure Grade-A guitar porn.

 

that's the second best kind.

 

272 >>People BY NATURE do not want to be on top of each other. Sprawl (which I think is entirely a Good Thing) is going to happen regardless of his/their wishes. I don't agree with this as a blanket statement. Lots of people choose to live in cities and not all city locations are equal. I've lived in both, both have their ups and downs. In other countries, city life is much more historically and culturally accepted (which is not coincidentally why high speed trains work so much better in those places). The US embraced sprawl not so much because all people were dying to get out of the city or had a desire to be farmers but because initially it was cheap.

273 Here's the GOP's big problem:  the 11th commandment -- thou shalt not speak ill of thy fellow Republicans.  What the problem is is that economic reformers like Ryan, I guess Perry, DeMint, etc., are simply going to have to throw the 2000-2006 GOP (most of it) under the bus for spending like drunken Democrats.  They're simply going to have to take it on or get tarred with it by the Dems.  The problem is, do they have the guts to do so?

274

and good luck heating those 20 floor walk-ups when there's no Heating Oil.

Posted by: garrett at July 21, 2011 11:53 AM (I2bQp)

Or running the city buses with no gasoline.

275 Posted by: BlackOrchid at July 21, 2011 11:47 AM (SB0V2)
and
Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 11:48 AM (ijjAe)

For an excellent take on the issue of sprawl and densification (rather, the move over the past 50 years toward un-densification, if I can invent a word) ... Edge City by Joel Garreau.

He notes the evolution of suburbia, and the rise of edge cities (think Tysons Corner, VA) to accommodate a new model of life and work.

276 Well, Jack - at least around here, people really did just want to get the hell out of the city (Philadelphia). Really, they wanted to do it SO MUCH they went to freakin New Jersey! Also, humans are animals and territorialism is natural to humans. That's what I meant. We can try to overcome our natural instincts, but they are still very much there. Denying that is . . . well, let's see, how many stories do we have out here every year where some dude shoots another one over a parking spot in the city? Territorial. We are. Good fences make Good Neighbors and all that.

277 God Forbid we live a Green Acres lifestyle.  Better we all pack ourselves into apartment blocks or, if we are prosperous, in a row house with a postage stamp sized yard.

Of course, one needs to be verging on rich to avoid renting out two of the three floors of such a row house (now deeply discounted to to $999,999.  More if you want off-street parking).

278 Yesterday I posted the map of closing data centers and today there is this:  "When asked in the call with reporters how the closings will affect employees, Kundra said that in many cases the data centers are managed by contractors, indicating it would be up to those firms to determine what happens to employees. For federal employees, he said the goal is to retool them for other jobs."  link

the article I posted yesterday said that many agencies were caught off guard by this and I had a link to a map from the government.  (sorry don't have time to go back and try to find it now)

bloomberg, CNBC and a host of others have had articles pop up overnight.

279 89 up here in eastern MA "feels like" 97 Dew point is 77F. That's enough to wilt concrete.

280 why am I not in the pool? have a good day, everyone! it's time for me to retire to my little slice of suburbia

281

No - that wasn't really the point I wanted to make.  That's why I said "Indeed, make everyone live on more land..."  Because suburban lots are not big enough.  We need more spread, not less. 

But first get rid of the regulations that get homeowners fined for growing vegetables in their front yard.

282 The point I'm making is that auto-centric suburbia is just as dependent as cities on delivery infrastructure. The only difference is that number of people. If the electric/gas/fuel supply goes away suburbia is just as fucked as the cities. The only difference being fewer people to deal with. Suburbia is NOT self sufficient like people pretend. It is every bit as dependent as cities are.

The only parts of the country that won't be screwed are the old small towns which still have farms to grow food, density around main street so that people can still walk to what they need and there are enough people to have skills/services provided, actual stores on main street with stuff in them, and some industry to keep making new stuff somehow.

283 293 89 up here in eastern MA
"feels like" 97

Dew point is 77F. That's enough to wilt concrete.

Posted by: fluffy at July 21, 2011 11:59 AM (4Kl5M)

But it won't melt steel!

284 Dammit, that French guy is still in the yellow jersey at the TdF. I thought fer sure he'd crack today.

285

279 Oh, MWR, don't worry about me, I'm long gone from my hometown (well, about 40 miles west of it now).

But thanks! I do worry about friends and family still there. (esp Wyatt who has a rough job in a rough town in a roughish area of it)

Thanks, Orchid!  For the record, I'm at work now and the a/c is kaput.  Temp is currently 79.2 in the office.

 

286 The US embraced sprawl not so much because all people were dying to get out of the city or had a desire to be farmers but because initially it was cheap.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 21, 2011 11:55 AM (TMB3S)

 

 

That may be what started it, but that's not what keeps it going.  Most people who want a regular family life are at least tempted to flee the cities, to get as far as possible from the underclass and the commies running the government.  They used to call it white flight and say it was racism that was to blame, but really it was just plain old flight - getting away from the threats posed by the ever growning scum demographic created by leftist social policies. 

The thought of having to live within mere miles of a metro slum gives me the chills.  Many of those people are essentially feral.  There are serious no-go zones in many US cities - we just like to pretend they don't exist.

287 298 Dammit, that French guy is still in the yellow jersey at the TdF. I thought fer sure he'd crack today.

Posted by: Waterhouse at July 21, 2011 12:00 PM (ktytq)

One more day to go in the Alps. We'll see how he does in the next stage.

288

Currently 89F in Concord, NH.  Feels like 95.  Temps expected to reach 96F with a heat index around 105.

I am a cold northern critter.  I was not made for heat and humidity.  I will melt. 

289 I thought I heard beck say something about if you make over I think it was $250 grand then you probably won't be getting SS but you will be paying it with no cap on the amount to be paid.  I had to run to a meeting so missed the rest of it but I think he was going through the gang of 6 deal and dissecting it as only beck can.  It didn't sound, from what I heard that it was a good plan for people making over like $250 grand, well, actually it didn't seem like it was a good plan for anyone working.

Heard someone discuss "the bandwagon effect" yesterday and it made me realize that the press is pumping this plan and all of a sudden everyone is "jumping on the band wagon" cause they don't want to be left out.

290

One more day to go in the Alps. We'll see how he does in the next stage.

 

I was amazed how many riders wiped out during the downhill yesterday.

291

The only parts of the country that won't be screwed are the old small towns which still have farms to grow food, density around main street so that people can still walk to what they need and there are enough people to have skills/services provided, actual stores on main street with stuff in them, and some industry to keep making new stuff somehow.

 

Because there are no people with these skillsets in suburbia?  

You are a fool to believe such things.

If shit hits the fan, the free-riders are the ones who will have a problem. 

292 Re:  all y'all and your "heat" ...

Puh-leeeeze.

293 #300, American cities really became hellholes following FDR & LBJ. The urban model as a physical structure isn't broken, but the POLITICAL structure of American cities is broken. Given the political structure's attempts at social engineering, the social structure is often broken as well.

294

Puh-leeeeze.

 

 

But we have humidity . . .

295
you SW'esterners know NOTHING about humidity

296

...damn.

No Tour Talk!

  I missed today's live coverage. 

297 >>Well, Jack - at least around here, people really did just want to get the hell out of the city (Philadelphia). Yea well cities go up and down just like the burbs. 30 years ago you couldn't give away real estate in the Back Bay of Boston. Now, it's some of the most expensive (and stable) in the country. People have returned in droves. And there are all sorts of anecdotes about the dangers of living in the city and the sticks. The Congressman who just had a home invasion the other day lived in the boonies. I do agree that there are a lot of advantages to living in the burbs or the boonies but there are also so big advantages to city living. I pretty much only drive on weekends because I can walk or talk the T to just about everything I need, there are about 50 restaurants within a mile of me, I've got miles of river and trails across the street, I haven't cut the lawn since I departed the burbs and so forth. I'm also less than 15 minutes from the airport which is big for me so for now I choose to live in the city.

298 308

This time of year, we do too.  Monsoon season, and all.

299 The answer to problems in a city is rudy guiliani.  Without him, NY wouldn't be the ny you see today.  The man did an amazing job after the tennis stadium building mayor nearly destroyed ny.

300
the worst: summer in a valley

as in the Tennessee Valley.

No air.

301 The point I'm making is that auto-centric suburbia is just as dependent as cities on delivery infrastructure. The only difference is that number of people. If the electric/gas/fuel supply goes away suburbia is just as fucked as the cities. The only difference being fewer people to deal with. Suburbia is NOT self sufficient like people pretend. It is every bit as dependent as cities are.

Posted by: The Donkey Show

 

You went from the assertion: 'densification is desirable' to the false notion that people think that suburbs are self sufficient. You also asserted that there would be no difference where one would be if Things went Bad.

No, I would not be just as fucked if things crashed down in suburbia. Why? Because I'm not living cheek by jowl with a suddenly deprived underclass, corrupt municipal organization, and an infastructure courtesy of some Dem machine organization. Check out the death toll in New Orleans versus other areas, who suffered the exact same storm.

302 In July it's hot because it's summer, in November it's cold because it's winter......wash, rinse, repeat.

303 #305, if the skilled people are spread out over 40 square miles of subdivisions, and there's no gas for cars or communications are down, it's going to make life hard to pool skills together effectively with everyone walking a day or so to get together!

304

316 In July it's hot because it's summer, in November it's cold because it's winter......wash, rinse, repeat.

 

BLASPHEMY!!!

305
One of the most miserable summer experiences I had was in Minnesota in 1983. You'd think it would be mild.

306

The answer to problems in a city is rudy guiliani. Without him, NY wouldn't be the ny you see today. The man did an amazing job after the tennis stadium building mayor nearly destroyed ny.

Posted by: curious at July 21, 2011 12:06 PM (k1rwm)

 

Yes.  Of course, how long will it take the new guy to wreck it all?  The one thing Rudy couldn't do was fix the culture.

307 Posted by: Soothsayer at July 21, 2011 12:06 PM (G/zuv)

Was just there (well, back and forth here to there every week for a month or so) ... consulting for a large public utility (guess who).  the second week i was there - mid-May - it was like 60 degrees.

I froze my ass off.

308 Will the rating agencies force a 'grand bargain'?

309 @296 Nobody here is arguing that suburbia is self-sufficient.  We merely note you seem to have some deep seated personal issue which the notion that not everyone wishes to live in some Democrat machine-run Urban utopia.

And I am still mystified by this idea we are running out of arable farmland.  Sure we are, wherever government officials are doing things like cutting off the water supply in aid of some species of minnow.  Government officials of the sort who elsewhere try to ban smoking in outdoors and regularly swap out parking spaces for bike lanes-that see little or no use.  You decry the nanny state, yet wish to encourage more people to live in its birth creche.  Damned odd chain of logic there.

310 316 In July it's hot because it's summer, in November it's cold because it's winter......wash, rinse, repeat.

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at July 21, 2011 12:07 PM (M5A8b)

This  *waves to 'Nam Grunt*

311

It used to be that moving to a city was done to find work as farms and rural work dried up.  Living in a city was a status symbol (provided you lived in the right part of the city).  Now, being able to afford NOT living in the city is what people aspire to.  It means you can afford a car, a commute, a home of your own instead of an apartment.  Why else do wealthy individuals buy "country homes" in the Hamptons, or up in northern Maine, or ranches out in Montana?  Because they can, and because almost no one wants to spend their lives cooped up in the smelly, dirty, crime-ridden wastes of urban America.

Piling everyone together in cities is just another progressive goal that is REgressive in form but not function.  The Industrial Revolution spurred both economic growth and migration to urban areas for work.  But it was the economic growth that spurred the migration; the migration did not spur the economic growth.  Putting people in boxy apartments in cities doesn't find them jobs.  All it does is take away their freedom of movement and thus hamstring their opportunities for personal and professional growth.

312 #320 Bloomberg has already wrecked a lot of things in NY by focusing on Manhattan at the expense of the other boroughs. Rudy was big on quality of life issues, Bloomberg couldn't care less if something is bothering anyone with a net worth less than 2 million.

313 324 Janey,

Waves back how are you darlin?

314

American cities really became hellholes following FDR & LBJ. The urban model as a physical structure isn't broken, but the POLITICAL structure of American cities is broken. Given the political structure's attempts at social engineering, the social structure is often broken as well.

Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 12:05 PM (ijjAe)

 

 

Well said.  And they will stay broken, as was intended.  That rat bastard LBJ bragged when he did it - saying he'd secured Dem electoral victory forever.  He knew he was breeding a dependency class.  But then, I must say no more.  Bringing up the demographics is frowned upon...

I still am not in total agreement that the Urban Model is a desireable thing - I see it more as a necessary evil - but it certainly could be a LOT more liveable than it is.

315 if the skilled people are spread out over 40 square miles of subdivisions, and there's no gas for cars or communications are down, it's going to make life hard to pool skills together effectively with everyone walking a day or so to get together!

Posted by: The Donkey Show

And in cities, things are nice and concentrated, like parking lots full of buses which are left unused to drown (aong with the people). And since no city can begin to feed itself or provide energy for fuel, power and light, it will somehow overcome that because they don't have that day long commute.

A city is as at least an artificial construct as a suburb. It's actually worse, since it requires far greater infastructure support, and is usually in the thrall of a machine that exists to perpetuate itself.

316

I thought I heard beck say something about if you make over I think it was $250 grand then you probably won't be getting SS but you will be paying it with no cap on the amount to be paid.

Right now, I believe it's capped at $106,000 - nowhere NEAR that magical $250K the Dems are always blabbering on about. We actually count on that "extra" income later in the year - it comes in handy at Christmas time.....

And if an "insurance" company tried to pull that crap (taking payments in but not paying annuities out) in the private sector, they'd be out of business - and their CEO in jail - so fast, it would make your head spin.

317 You'd think it would be mild.

You'd think that, but you'd be wrong. Minnesota gets the worst of both words: brutal heat in the summer and brutal cold in the winter. It has a temperature swing of 150F -- from -30F in really cold snaps to 120F in high summer on certain days. And this is prime growth-season for corn and soybeans, which means that they're busy pumping out all kinds of humidity. I've lived down south, and this kind of heat is the kind of stuff I remember from Jackson, Mississippi and Columbus, Georgia in high summer.

Minnesota is not for the weak.

318 319
One of the most miserable summer experiences I had was in Minnesota in 1983. You'd think it would be mild.

Posted by: Soothsayer at July 21, 2011 12:09 PM (G/zuv)

 

Pfft, you wingers have no clue.

319 words = worlds

Stupid brain.

320

if the skilled people are spread out over 40 square miles of subdivisions, and there's no gas for cars or communications are down, it's going to make life hard to pool skills together effectively with everyone walking a day or so to get together!

 

Can you do math? 

40 square miles...really...10 miles by 4 miles...or even 8 by 5...

you think it takes all day to walk 10 miles?

You are wrong.  Give it up...

and for what it's worth, the further you get out of a population center, the less specialization you will encounter. 

321 Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 12:08 PM (ijjAe)

Yep, that's it.  If you're far apart from others, you can't possibly pool your resources.  No one has ever done that before.

Except, you know, everybody prior to about 1800.  But other than that, nobody has ever collaborated based their skills, knowledge, and resources with someone who wasn't a next-door neighbor until cars came along.

Okay.  If that's what you want to believe.

322 327 324 Janey,

Waves back how are you darlin?

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at July 21, 2011 12:13 PM (M5A8b)

I'm great (but hot...summer on the Georgia coast, and now we've got an outbreak of West Nile virus).

How you doin'?

323 Doom is an S-Corp not an LLC.

324

"Can you do math?"

I was told there would be no Math! 

325 Was just there (well, back and forth here to there every week for a month or so) ... consulting for a large public utility (guess who).  the second week i was there - mid-May - it was like 60 degrees.

I froze my ass off.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at July 21, 2011 12:10 PM (qiOph)

Now, that would be awesome right now. 

I was out in LA in January 2010 and the temps were in the 50s or 60s.  There were people walking around in winter jackets and scarves, long sleeves and jeans.  I, meanwhile, was in shorts and a t-shirt.  Hell, I only wear a coat in winter if I'm outside for longer than five minutes or the temperature is below 25F and feels colder with a wind chill.

It's all about the climate you're used to. 

326 Minnesota is not for the weak.

Posted by: Monty at July 21, 2011 12:15 PM (/0a60)

One of the best times my husband and son ever had together was canoeing the Northern Tier with the Boy Scouts. 

327 I keep up with some of the survivalist/prepper sites, and the general consensus is that in a SHTF situation, the city dwellers - particularly the "dependent class" - will die off in large numbers.  But they'll take the rest of the city with them.

I'll be happy out here away from the worst of it, and save ammo for those really smart gang-bangers who realize salvation may not lie within their immediate environs.

328 What's up morons? It's about 183 degrees outside and being outside for 30 seconds makes my hair look like Debbie Wasserman-Woof's.

*sobs*

Everyone stayin' cool?

329 How does a "transitory" Greek default not trigger the mountains of credit default swaps on their debt? If one cannot collect on credit default swaps when an actual default occurs, what the hell purpose do they serve?

330 #320 Yet you want more of this.  Unless you presume our newly re-packed urban areas will all bring forth their version of Rudy Giuliani, which seems to me a dubious prospect.

Bloomberg is actually a step up (compare him to the current mayors of Philadelphia, LA and Washington D.C.) from the usual big city mayor.  We've been rather lucky in New York City the last twenty years.

And this gascentric suburbia thing is a load of crap.  Most of our problems with gasoline price and supply are government-imposed.  Why do we want to further empower the ecotards who wish to get all the peons out of their automobiles?  Fortunately, all those things required for urban life are transported by vehicles powered with magic and earnest good intentions.

331 Do you really want to tell me that you know all your neighbors within a 10 mile radius? And that in the event of a total collapse of civilization you could find a doctor or a mechanic if something went catastrophically wrong among those neighbors without difficulty?

332

Monty,

I'll see you doom and raise you, pestilence and famine. 

B.

333 This, from FoxNews, really upsets me: Not what the GOP seems to be thinking, but the false premise that is being pushed. http://fxn.ws/q7SM6c

From what I'm reading, they're buying into the premise that Obama wins on a short-term increase and that they're being "boxed in [to supply]... their own" idea on debt reduction.

Hey, idiot: They already did: it's called "Cut, Cap, and Balance" and passed the house yesterday.  Since Dems are in control of the Senate and White House, what are their specific proposals?

334 343 What's up morons? It's about 183 degrees outside and being outside for 30 seconds makes my hair look like Debbie Wasserman-Woof's.

*sobs*

Everyone stayin' cool?

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 21, 2011 12:20 PM (pLTLS)

You poor thing.   I'm avoiding going outside because the humidity will make my hair look like DWS's if DWS didn't use a full bottle of LA Looks Ultra Hold gel every morning.

335 350 343 All wimmin have naturally curly hair in this god forsaken weather!

And eye make-up? Fughetaboutit!

336

You poor thing.   I'm avoiding going outside because the humidity will make my hair look like DWS's if DWS didn't use a full bottle of LA Looks Ultra Hold gel every morning.

Posted by: MWR at July 21, 2011 12:22 PM (4df7R)

Another curly-head here.  I should buy stock in styling products. 

337 Can you do math? 40 square miles...really...10 miles by 4 miles...or even 8 by 5... you think it takes all day to walk 10 miles? You are wrong. Give it up.. Gotta walk home, too. With your tools. How long can you sustain a pace of 3 mph? I'd say he may be within hand grenade range on this one.

338 346,

Due to this drought mosquitoes have been on the downlow, I actually sit out my deck at night very comfortably.

339

Do you really want to tell me that you know all your neighbors within a 10 mile radius? And that in the event of a total collapse of civilization you could find a doctor or a mechanic if something went catastrophically wrong among those neighbors without difficulty?

 

ALL?  No.  That's unreasonable and un-necessary.

but that's not at question...I only need to know 5-6 of them. 

340 You're right about the low-scale riots, MWR. In some places in the Detroit area, you can throw a brick right through a lot of buildings and hit nuthin' but other loose bricks already thrown.

Sad thing is, the first riots were people tearing shzt up.

The second, longer riots, were older, more connected people, getting control of the system, and voting themselves benefits like limos and expense accounts for low-level school admin functionaries. People like John Conyers' wife. And the Kilpatrick family.

Any guesses which group did more damage?

341 And eye make-up? Fughetaboutit!

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 21, 2011 12:23 PM (pLTLS)

Oh HELL no. 

342 The news isn' tall doom today: Chaput is a comin' to Philly and the AP already has its panties in a bunch! Nice post takes a few swipes at the good old AP: http://xrl.us/bk2qa8

343 It woud seem that we are DOOOOMED to this thread. Forever.

344 351 NY City is the bestest, greatest, more wonderful place in the whole entire world!

Posted by: An annoymous poster.....aren't you curious who? at July 21, 2011 12:23 PM (OWjjx)

And its SCOLDING hot-here today!! Phew! 

345

Gotta walk home, too. With your tools. How long can you sustain a pace of 3 mph? I'd say he may be within hand grenade range on this one.

 

Bullshit. 

Ever heard of the wheel?, a cart?, wagon? 

Don't be foolish.  Look to the Amish.

346 Do you really want to tell me that you know all your neighbors within a 10 mile radius?

No, but I don't have to.  I know enough of them now, and could meet the others later.  Do you really think it's all that different from "networking?"  I know people- they know other people.  You meet those other people and so on.  It's not actually as hard as Liberals would have you believe.

And that in the event of a total collapse of civilization you could find a doctor or a mechanic if something went catastrophically wrong among those neighbors without difficulty?

Who said anything about "without difficulty?"  I think by the time we're talking about "a total collapse of civilization" difficulty is a given.  I do think people (by and large) would man up and band together for mutual protection.  That means that finding doctors and mechanics (well, more handy-men than actual mechanics in many cases- but it would be close enough) would not be easy, but it would be done anyway.

You seem to think we can only survive on the say-so, and by the largess of, our government.

347 10 miles takes about 2-3 hours to walk depending on your pace and what you're carrying. This is also assuming you know exactly where your going and whom your are meeting.

348 hahahhaha.

You morons(ettes) are so good for a much needed laugh.

I don't even need to point out what comment is bringing the funneh. It's fairly obvious.

349
that would make a nice epitaph...

Look To The Amish

350 These DOOM threads make me think to much and I get paranoid.

Mobility is freedom. Eliminate weapons, mobility, and food and you have yourself a herd of cattle.

Make cars that won't let you get more than 50 miles without re-charging and showing your location on a grid. Cars that can be de-activated remotely via police cruiser or OnStar-type gadgets.

Make gasoline so expensive that you can't afford to commute more than a few miles or not at all. Causing you to have to move closer to the center of command and control.

They'll do everything possible to have us living like rats piled 300 deep.

We are being herded like cattle ever closer together so that we are easier to find, fence, watch, arrest, and re-educate when we step out of line.

The fact that most of this plan is being implemented by sub-retards may be the only thing that saves us.

351 US News is completely in Bammer's corner, yet feels compelled to call him out on his lies.

That may be the farthest we'll ever see the left go in acknowledging that the ship is sinking.

Pretty much.  All I saw was them trotting out how it was also the republicans fault because obuma won't make a deal on anything but his terms.  Whatever they are.  I also liked how this article points out obuma is at the heart of these issues but needs another term to fix what he broke.

352 lacey, heh.

Yesterday I was called "an old cranky person."  Gotta love it.

353 _{And its SCOLDING hot-here today!! Phew!}

Um bridge. I takes it.

354 too much.

Obviously I don't think too much about my spelling.

355 Pure Grade-A guitar porn.

 

that's the second best kind.

 

 

Ha!  I had to read that twice.  I thought it said "Pure Grade-A gutter porn."

356 Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at July 21, 2011 12:20 PM (agD4m)

I was shocked when Adrian Fenty lost.  Yeah I know the schools gal allegedly pissed off the teachers and now they are trying to pin other stuff in that direction.  But fenty turned that city around and then they reward him with his exit papers?   Never understood that.

357 Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 12:27 PM (ijjAe)

And?

Let's see: let's say I get up in the morning and say, "Gee, I need X.  Well, so-and-so can do that for me, and he lives 10 miles away."  I get my stuff and I'm out the door by 7 (because, in this post-apocalyptic world, I know I need to get off my lazy behind and actually work to survive, you see).  So I'm to so-and-so's place by 10:30 (stopped to catch my breath a time or two).

Now, if it's a big job I need him to do, I leave it with him and go do something else, and then head home.  If it's a small job, maybe I stay, maybe I go do other errands and then pick up whatever.  But, I still head home.

Only if it's a big job that requires my direct involvement does this preclude me going home that night.  And, you know what, I could survive a night or two at so-and-so's place.

People did it for millennia  before the car.  I think we'd be able to learn how again.

358 Bullshit. Ever heard of the wheel?, a cart?, wagon? Don't be foolish. Look to the Amish. How long can you sustain a pace of 3 mph pulling said cart? 10 miles takes about 2-3 hours to walk depending on your pace and what you're carrying. Two hours?

359 #346 You're fucking joking right?  You really want to be in the city when we have some collapse of civilization scenario.

That happens, we city dwellers are well and truly screwed.  Unless the collapse is precipitated by a terrorist nuke detonation or two, in which case we likely will be precipitation, raining down on those rubes we smugly turned up our noses at for failing to embrace our plan to pack them into the cities.

Anyone who seriously wants to be in the city during an epic disaster has rocks in their heads.  You and your mechanic and doctor will be on the menu then, but hey, at least you'll be able to find one another first.

360

What are you DYKS talking about now?? Is this some sort of secret club/code or something??

 

361 So I hear on the radio this morning that Robert Redford is going to make a movie glorifying the Weather Underground.

Have any of you ever heard the audio of the CIA agent who infiltrated the WU testifying?  Those WU bastards discussed overthrowing the government and letting China, Cuba and Russia split up and share the U. S. 

They also discussed in great detail the re-education camps, the "necessary" killing of all white babies, and the "necessity" of murdering 25 million U. S. citizens.

362

10 miles takes about 2-3 hours to walk depending on your pace and what you're carrying. This is also assuming you know exactly where your going and whom your are meeting.

 

It depends on how much the dead hobo weighs.  Some of the big ones will really slow you down.

363 New thread could be:

Should Sarah Palin Run for President on a Platform of Legalizing Marijuana?

364 #363, You're making a shitload of assumptions about me based on my screen name.

I'm not a fan of shit hole Democrat controlled pits sometimes referred to as "cities" in this country. But I do like real cities and reasonably sized towns that don't require driving for a fucking hour to buy a gallon of milk.  If you don't live in a rural area and it takes an hour worth of driving just to buy everyday necessities, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG.

365 I put up an open thread until Ace regains consciousness or some other co-blogger wanders in.

366

The powers that be are debating which new thread to post from this set of topics:

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life

 

YIkes. We'd be better off discussing medicinal gay marriage.

367 My friend went to a barbecue at her parent's neighbor's house on saturday and was talking to an official of a little town and he was telling her that he's been sued at least three times when he's tried to do his job and make sure there weren't any illegals on the local construction  sites.  He told her "they never sue you for the thing you are pestering them about, they drag you into court for something else".   He was apparently bragging that he won all three suits, but he said it's an effective strategy cause now he watches everything he says and does.  Made me think that Sarah Palin's experience may be the norm, not the exception.

368 381 New thread could be:

Should Sarah Palin Run for President on a Platform of Legalizing Marijuana?

Posted by: sifty at July 21, 2011 12:33 PM (ECjvn)

Meh...its gonna work for me in Jersey. All those teachers that hate me are HUGE pot-heads!

369 If you don't live in a rural area and it takes an hour worth of driving just to buy everyday necessities, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG.

Because you say so.

370 If you don't live in a rural area and it takes an hour worth of driving just to buy everyday necessities, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG.

Why, because you don't like it?

I'll admit it would be inconvenient, but inconvenient != wrong.  So explain what, exactly, would be very wrong about it.  Without assuming everyone is an incompetent who wouldn't be able to at least learn to fend for themselves.

371

You're making a shitload of assumptions about me based on my screen name.

I don't need to assume you are stupid.  The proof is in your posts.

372 10 blocks takes about 2-3 minutes to walk depending on your pace* and what valuables you're carrying. This is also assuming you know exactly where your going and whom your are meeting and there are no riots along your intended path, you had food to eat sometime during the last three days, and you are not suffering from one of the diseases endemic to crowded areas unable to maintain supplies of medical stores, food, and clean water.  Urban area wins!

*As little as one minute if running from a mob.  Somewhat more if caught and dragged into the alley to be gang raped and despoiled of one's possessions.

373 I put up an open thread until Ace regains consciousness or some other co-blogger wanders in. Bastid! We were arguing about the ground speed of ladened vs. un-ladened post apocalyptic humanoids.

374 I think you are being socked Garret.

375 Obviously, we need some legislation that says you may not live further than 10 minutes' walking distance from a grocery store. Otherwise people will start making their own decisions as to what is and isn't important.

376 How long can you sustain a pace of 3 mph pulling said cart?


Are we assuming pack animals are gone, as well?

377 _{People did it for millennia  before the car.  I think we'd be able to learn how again.}

Humans will adapt.

The problems I see are the millions of hungry, desperate, amoral, ignorant humans who will attempt to live off of their fellow man.

The population level we have now is supported by trains and trucks full of food moving freely over rails and roads. Those trains and trucks stop and things are going to be ugly within three months.

378 One hour?  That's it?  Try doing the subway-bus-subway shuffle and getting anything that requires travel to more than two locations done in an hour.  Or even doing the same by car.  Oh, and you waste a whole lot more gas driving in an urban area.

Only one hour is fricken nirvana.

379 396, Three months hell, three days.

380 New thread could be:

Should Sarah Palin Run for President on a Platform of Legalizing Marijuana?

Oddly enough, Palin did come out for the decriminalization of pot.

381
Those trains and trucks stop and things are going to be ugly within three months.

IIRC, I read somewhere that it would be less than a week.

382 Hell, cannibalism started in New Orleans fifteen minutes after the power went out to hear the MFM talk.

383 Obama blew a big debt deal. Color me shocked - he blows in general.

384 ....on the upside all this economic chaos has me rediscovering my Christian Religious Heritage and almost 2000 years of Judo-Christian roots.

385 Seeing headlines saying Boehner/Obama near deal. Stock market just popped 70 points in about 2 minutes. See no details though.

386 #389 If you live in a "bedroom community" where it takes an hour worth of driving just to buy basic necessities you're wasting a shitload of time and money driving to meet basic needs. Whatever cost savings were made by living in such an area get eaten up by buying gas, and the advantage of usually having a large yard is negated by loosing most of the time one would have to get to enjoy it.  The same is true for going out a to a restaurant or other forms of entertainment. You loose so much free time and spend so much money just to get to places, that you can't enjoy as much when you finally get there.

Unless you really enjoy driving, though the right car does help, do you really want to spend so much time and money doing it rather than other things?

387

I agree, as a city dweller, that living here during a SHTF situation would not be ideal, but I have to smile at some of the suburbanite posts. Are you saying that all of those fine folks in Delaware County, or the Jersey 'burbs, are suddenly going to become self-sufficient farmers? I see it as a slower-motion train wreck. Most ofthose people are ex-city dwellers who may have a tomato plant growing in the large yards, next to the swimming pool.

388 _{IIRC, I read somewhere that it would be less than a week.}

Most adults have at least three days to a week worth of food (maybe not their favorites) laying around the house or apartment.

All store shelves will be completely bare and/or burned up within 10 days. That's if owners stay to defend them rather than abandoning them.

I imagine the folks at Costco may just decide to bring their families to the store, roll down the steel shutters, climb up on the roof with a rifle and create a little fiefdom.

Government rations, if available at all, will be gone in a month.

I revise my estimate down to six weeks to total anarchy and street warfare.

This society couldn't make three months without cable TV.

389 _{advantage of usually having a large yard is negated by loosing most of the time one would have to get to enjoy it}

But having a large yard sure comes in handy when you need to grow food and meat animals.

390 Most adults have at least three days to a week worth of food (maybe not their favorites) laying around the house or apartment.


The Mormons would probably do well. They're required (kinda) to keep a years worth of food in the pantry for their families.

391 #408, and I'm sure you have livestock stored in your garage along with plenty of seedstock too? Farming is a lot harder than people think. The backyard plot isn't going to be sufficient for the average family to make it an entire year.

392 Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 21, 2011 12:47 PM (ijjAe)

You don't live in Texas, do you?

I drive an hour each direction (if traffic is light) to work.  What makes you think I'd think twice about doing the same to buy stuff or go see a movie?  I've driven six hours round-trip just because the restaurant I wanted to eat at was that far away.

And, I'm sorry, but even at $4.00/gal (we're not there, yet, btw, here in Dallas) I spend far less in gas than the difference in my mortgate/rent would be in "the city" for the kind of space (square footage, not my yard) I've got.

Is it far more convenient to have a grocery store and restaurants and movie theaters closer?  Yes.  But that doesn't mean being far away is some terrible thing.

393 Well, when the apocalypse comes, Utah will survive.  Most of the folks here have a year's worth of food stored, plus generators, water, and camping gear. 



I'm sure there's something sinister about Mormonism to be gleaned from that...   heh

394 They're required (kinda) to keep a years worth of food in the pantry for their families.

They're absolutely required, from what I've seen.  Plus, from time to time several families in each ward are selected to live off of their stored foods, either for several weeks or in some cases a couple of months.  Some neighbors of ours just came off of two weeks without electricity and running water. 

I'm not sure how that brings them closer to God, but I sure do salute them for being prepared, especially in these times!

395

The answer to problems in a city is rudy guiliani.  Without him, NY wouldn't be the ny you see today.  The man did an amazing job after the tennis stadium building mayor nearly destroyed ny.

Take it on the road? A roving mayoral road-show? I like it!

How long would he have to reside in a place like Chicago before he could run?

396 Is it far more convenient to have a grocery store and restaurants and movie theaters closer?  Yes.  But that doesn't mean being far away is some terrible thing.


I think the key difference I found between living in the boonies and living in the city is that the boonies require better planning.

If you run out of milk and the store is a few blocks away, no biggie. When I lived out in the boonies, trips were planned to buy everything we'd need for at least a week. Fill the tank, stock up on groceries, etc. Now I live in the city and I just stop on my way home from work to pick up milk or buy gas or whatever.

One thing I do love about city dwelling is Chinese food delivery. 

397 But having a large yard sure comes in handy when you need to grow food and meat animals. And to create a free fire zone to battle against the roving bands of city dwellers.

398

 #408, and I'm sure you have livestock stored in your garage along with plenty of seedstock too? Farming is a lot harder than people think. The backyard plot isn't going to be sufficient for the average family to make it an entire

 

And, if it is, you're gonna need a whole lot of ammo to hold on to it.

399 If you don't live in a rural area and it takes an hour worth of driving just to buy everyday necessities, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG.

One hour and twenty minutes here.  Thirty years ago I moved to 30 wooded acres with a 15 acre pond for exactly the reasons being discussed plus I just enjoy the lifestyle.  Go to town about once a month.  It is a surprise to most how much one can provide or can find suitable replacement.  I know all of my neighbors and we share both skills, produce, meat and assorted other stuff. 
If one wants to get picky, I guess an MRI machine might not be within walking distance but the sacrifices are relatively few.
As far as someone coming this far out to rape, pillage or plunder?  Bring 'em.

400 Re the transportation/density thing.  It's a choice and there are trade-offs, like anything else.  When I was in third grade my folks moved us to a planned community that was designed to minimize the dependence on cars, not for "eco" reasons but simply so moms and dads didn't have to drive their kids everywhere and so people didn't have such bearish commutes (part of the planning was a light industrial park and business centers).  My sister and I took community buses or walked or used the bike paths to go virtually everywhere.  It worked really well and was a great way to grow up. 

I've enjoyed living in a real city and being able to walk to work, but at this stage of life with a dog and different priorities, it's nice to have a suburban yard.  I expect we'll return to a mid to smaller urban environment when we hit retirement age. 

401 They're absolutely required, from what I've seen.  Plus, from time to time several families in each ward are selected to live off of their stored foods, either for several weeks or in some cases a couple of months.  Some neighbors of ours just came off of two weeks without electricity and running water. 

I'm not sure how that brings them closer to God, but I sure do salute them for being prepared, especially in these times!


Heh. My in-laws are jack Mormons, but even so, my FIL keeps water and dry goods stored.

I might disagree with the Mormon tenets, but I have a huge respect for their family and social structure.

402 One thing I do love about city dwelling is Chinese food delivery. 

Yeah, I miss that.  When we lived in the South Side of Chicago (well, Hyde Park, but close enough) we could get so much delivered, including Mexican and Middle Eastern food.  It was heaven. 

403 Yeah, I miss that.  When we lived in the South Side of Chicago (well, Hyde Park, but close enough) we could get so much delivered, including Mexican and Middle Eastern food.  It was heaven. 


You know, you'd think living in Austin you'd be able to get BBQ and Mexican food delivered, but no. Bastards.

404 418 If you don't live in a rural area and it takes an hour worth of driving just to buy everyday necessities, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG.
----
One hour and twenty minutes here.
---
Yeah, distances are relative, aren't they?  I remember when we lived in Texas being kind of shocked at the distances folks were willing to travel routinely.  We discovered that fact one day when we (foolishly) offered to give a friend a lift home.  Took three hours round trip!

A friend of ours lives in the Berkshires.  Everything is twenty minutes away.  It's become a running joke now. 

405 You know, you'd think living in Austin you'd be able to get BBQ and Mexican food delivered, but no. Bastards

Frustrating, but I guess they want the liquor sales. 

I'm still amazed no one (to my knowledge) has started up a donut delivery place.  I would definitely subscribe to a regular delivery of donuts (coffee, juice, and perhaps a paper) on the weekends. 

406 When we lived in the South Side of Chicago (well, Hyde Park, but close enough) we could get so much delivered, including Mexican and Middle Eastern food.  It was heaven.

In Chicago?  It might have been called Mexican food, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

407 @It might have been called Mexican food, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

Well, probably not.  It wasn't Frontera Grill or Topolabambo.  There were some pretty Mexican neighborhoods even back in the 80s, although not near us. 

408 Posted by: Y-not at July 21, 2011 01:12 PM (5H6zj)

In my experience, the quality of Mexican (really, Tex-Mex) food varies inversely with one's distance from the Mexican border.

409 In my experience, the quality of Mexican (really, Tex-Mex) food varies inversely with one's distance from the Mexican border

We were really disappointed by what passed for Mexican in SoCal. 

Texas was obviously great. 

I think it's more a function of demand (not just volume but the standards of the clientele).  Chicago had, of any place I've lived, the best of the best.  We even got the best seafood there. 

410 I think it's more a function of demand (not just volume but the standards of the clientele)

I think it's a function of who is making it.  Nothing I've ever had beats the little hole-in-the wall places here in Texas.  The city almost doesn't matter, though San Antonio probably wins there.

411 I think it's a function of who is making it.  Nothing I've ever had beats the little hole-in-the wall places here in Texas.  The city almost doesn't matter, though San Antonio probably wins there.


I look for the places where certain people actually eat. Mexican food, look for the little restaurant that Mexicans eat at, if it's full of gringos, move on (I'm looking at you, Chuy's.) Same with Chinese. Want a good old fashioned country breakfast with biscuits and gravy? Hit any small town in Texas and look for the cafe surrounded by pickups.

Best Mexican food I ever had was in NM. Some place out around Three Rivers, IIRC.  I love my Tex-Mex, but some places are too fond of cilantro.

412 164 Check out my update #3 - Laura Ingraham's baggage robbed in NJ airport. Flying in the US these days just isn't worth the fucking hassle any more.

Posted by: Monty at July 21, 2011 11:01 AM (/0a60)

Laura Ingraham must certainly be smarter than this. Valuables always go in the carry on. No exceptions.

I travel overseas 2-3 times per year. On my return trips, booze gets properly wrapped and placed in the bottom, dirty underware and sweaty socks go right on the top for TSA to paw thru. In over 30 trans-Pacific trips have seen not one thing stolen or lost.

413 Farming is a lot harder than people think.

It is insanely hard, which makes it nice that I grew up on a farm. And rabbits are a great source of protein for the amount of feed required.

A family of four can live on rabbit, potatoes, corn and tomatoes from 1/4 acre if a supply of water is available. Seen it done.

Protecting it is the hardest part.

414 404 Seeing headlines saying Boehner/Obama near deal. Stock market just popped 70 points in about 2 minutes. See no details though.   Done deal. They're working on the "Boehner is a hero" talking points now. Just remember to vote Republican in 2012, so Cryin John can keep his new gig.

415 Farming is a lot harder than people think.  It is insanely hard...

Posted by: sifty at July 21, 2011 01:28 PM (ECjvn)

 

This is true.  People tend to underestimate what an advanced technology it is nowadays.  And if we were really to lose the gasoline supply, it would go from hard to impossible.  But happily only the most total and complete anarchy would result in that.  If there's a horredous disaster, farm and food processing facitilies have to be near the tippy-top of the power distribution priority list.

And I think it will be easier in such a case to deliver supplies to the more orderly burbs than to the festering cities.  Less risk of being mobbed.  More cooperation among citizens.  Smaller nest of underclass to make trouble.

416

So, the Republicans tried to snatch defeat from the Jaws of victory, but Jaws gave the defeat to Obama instead?  Jaws is conservative?

That's it, blame it on the Jaws.

417 Mexican food, look for the little restaurant that Mexicans eat at, if it's full of gringos, move on (I'm looking at you, Chuy's.)

Posted by: mpurinTexas supports Rick Perry, bitch at July 21, 2011 01:27 PM (OonVm)

 We call Chuy's: "Tex-Mex for New Yorkers"

418 Morbo knows what up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bbIBs0P2t0