1 poor kitteh in a tree.

2

If the payroll tax cut keeps getting extended, it may finally do the job of killing off Social Security.

IF???? All the talking heads are saying today it WILL be extended this week. I don't think it will kill it off any faster than it already is.

This chart shows better where the money is actually coming from

They are finally treating it just like just normal tax revenue.

3 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

4

Will public-sector pension plans run out of money?

From the link:

If I were a 45-year-old public employee in one of these plans, an investor in that state's bonds or a taxpayer likely to be handed the bill for these deficits, I would want to know now whether this depletion risk is accurately portrayed by this study. And I would sure want to know what the public officials responsible for funding and running these plans are doing to fix them before "D-day" arrives.

Every tax payer in the country falls in one of these categories because the damn feds have been buying the State bonds for bankrupt States like CA.

5 Prepare for CWII. It's all about the money. Always has been. Always will be.

6

You know what the real problem with the “too big to fail” philosophy is?

The basic problem is that phrase was invented by lying asshole politicians. You can always tell what the problem is by what the final solution they come up with is.

If the banks and investment houses could get to be "too big to fail" w/o dragging the economy down with it, then the laws would have never been revised to allow these places to merge to the point that they were mega-corporations.

The real problem is that their cronies were going bankrupt and needed a bailout. i.e. the real problem is pure corruption and the government has too much power.

7 It's faintly surprising to me that they can stay on the "verge" for as long as they have.

They're like a car half-way over a cliff.  They can "manage" things forever (potentially).  They'll never get better but, hey, they might not get worse, either.  Until some bird sits (or s*its, as it were) on the front of the car...

8 4 Every tax payer in the country falls in one of these categories because the damn feds have been buying the State bonds for bankrupt States like CA.
Posted by: Vic at December 12, 2011 09:03 AM (YdQQY)

It's the accretion plan to assemble, bit by bit, an all-encompassing black hole of debt suck!

9 It's no longer "too big to fail", but "too failed to stay big".

10 And does anyone think the current DOJ will prosecute anyone in the Chicago unions right now. If they do I have a timeshare I am still trying to get rid of.

11

You know what the real problem with the “too big to fail” philosophy is?

The basic problem is that phrase was invented by lying asshole politicians.

dingdingding!  We have a winner, ladies and gentlemen.

"Too big to fail" is code for "my donors."  Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.  The fact of capitalism is that it tends to kill bad ideas in their crib, and euthanize ideas which are too old to change rapidly.  That's actually a feature of the system, not a bug.

12 that kitteh refuses to punch down... it's beneath him/her.

13 that kitteh refuses to punch down... it's beneath him/her.

It's too early for punning.

14 great as always Monty. your posts here are a shining star.

15 10 If they do I have a timeshare I am still trying to get rid of.
Posted by: Vic at December 12, 2011 09:11 AM (YdQQY)

You didn't fall for one of those "come to Myrtle Beach and pick up your trash" timeshare sales pitches, did you, Vic?

My ex-wife made the pithy comment to the salesperson when we went for ours: "Do you have any zoning laws around here?" Never trust anyone who can sit across the table from you and write upside down perfectly.

16 You didn't fall for one of those "come to Myrtle Beach and pick up your trash" timeshare sales pitches, did you, Vic?

No I allowed wifey to harangue me into buying one in Daytona Beach way back in the 80s. I knew it was a rip off but we had just got married and I was trying to keep the peace.

17 13 It's too early for punning.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 12, 2011 09:13 AM (8y9MW)

Every party needs a pooper, that's why we invited you. All I wanted to get was a punning start on the week!

18 In general IÂ’m very supportive of IP laws, but our copyright and patent systems are just completely broken and out-of-date. They cause far too much harm for any good they do to be worthwhile.

Then with you do you suggest they be replaced?  Because, human nature being what it is, if you get rid of our copyright and patent systems today, people's intellectual property will be taken without payment (it won't be stealing anymore) by... later today.

Also, I'd like an actual patent lawyer to go over that first one they cited before I just take MR's word on it.  I know a thing or three about the business side of practicing medicine, and there's no way simply saying "Levels of lipid A between X and Y indicate a dosage of Z for Medicine B," gets its own patent.  Not that stands up if anyone challenges it, anyway.  At minimum, you'd need multiple markers that you were reviewing, and it would have to be markers not previously known to be related, or, at least, not known to be related in that way.

Prior Art works in Medicine, too, after all.

19 Posted by: Jeremiad was a Bullfrog at December 12, 2011 09:18 AM (Og1Kk)

Dang.  I knew I shouldn't have had cheese for breakfast.

20

Kill social security?  SS is like a zombie - you can't kill what's already dead, you can just incapacitate it. 

Right now our government of, by, and for the people seems content to just watch the fucking thing gorge itself on brains from their misperceived safety.

21 How is it that Barky can't control the weather when he is best of buds with Weathermen?

22 you can't kill what's already dead, you can just incapacitate it.

Even a zombie will eventually just decay if it doesn't get enough to eat.

I'm not sure that metaphor quite works that way, but hey.

But you (and Monty) are right: the point is to push SS into insolvency as an excuse for raising taxes and/or seizing assets.

23 How is it that Barky can't control the weather when he is best of buds with Weathermen?

Was he speaking?  Then he was lying.

I heard snippets of that interview on the way into work this morning.  Could they have licked his junk any more?

Part of me wants to go to some forum where he'll be.  I'd wear an SEIU shirt (or some-such), and play up for the screening staff how much I just love the President.  All of it would be worth it when I got to see the look on his face when I asked, "Mr President, why are you such a stuttering clusterfark [it would be live, after all] of a miserable failure?"

24 Five officials from unions affiliated with the Laborers' International Union of North America, or LIUNA, were also named in the subpoenas. Among them was Liberato "Al" Naimoli, president of Cement Workers Local 76. In 2010, Naimoli retired from a $15,000-a-year city job from which he took leave 25 years earlier and began collecting a $158,000 city laborers pension based on his nearly $300,000 union salary.

Nice feet youse got dere. Mind if I fit dem wit dese cement galoshes?

25 You know the greatest generation gave birth to the boomers who from all accounts and purposes are the most selfish generation yes I know I am generalizing but aren't they the  ones who came up with  the live for today BS? Well guess what tomorrow finally got here and you are out of money A-holes and now you expect your children and grand children and hell your great grand children to pay for it as Monty pointed out what can't be paid won't be paid either that or soylant green. Your choice boomers.

26 25 Posted by: lonecountryboy at December 12, 2011 09:27 AM (MN5iK)

Take a breath... and comma insertion lessons from Meggers McCanns

27 and comma insertion lessons from Meggers McCanns

That was mean.  Why would you torture the poor comma so?

28 the point is to push SS into insolvency as an excuse for raising taxes and/or seizing assets.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 12, 2011 09:23 AM (8y9MW)

The amazing thing to me is that no one (in politics) is actually discussing the premise of SS as it exists in the real world.  If SS is "earned" by you, then (logically) you need to contribute to have a stake in it.  Once you are forgiven your payments, it becomes worse than a Ponzi scheme because you are now told you will get SS money (eventually) even though you put up nothing for it.

Yes I know SS is all a lie, and I understand that the spineless RINOs won't voice the truth, but I really would like to hear lots of R pols say something about this scam.

29

I've never understood the too big to fail thing.  No, you mean too big to fail without causing consequences that people don't want to contemplate.  Failure will happen, it'll just be later and even worse.

The collapse of the public sector pensions is something I'm prone to dealing with via lalalalalala I can't hear you.  Everyone is going to be screwed, the people who made what they considered rational retirement planning by taking a public sector job with "guaranteed" retirement benefits, the taxpayers who say "yeah, I don't think guaranteed means what you think it means" and me when I have to shoo the ravening hordes off my lawn.

Question because I'm lazy, what's the over/under on Intrade for the various European countries to revert to form in dealing with the economic crisis?  Because I'm going with a year, outside. 

30 28, SS isn't real, SS is a slow QE (quantitative easing) tool, a political football to entertain the senior voting bloc, and a potent foil to grab more tax dollars. What it isn't is a retirement fund.

31 and me when I have to shoo the ravening hordes off my lawn.

I think you missed a letter there.

Also, since people seem to be moving around: there's a new post over at my blog, for those who are interested.

32

Even a zombie will eventually just decay if it doesn't get enough to eat.

I'm not sure that metaphor quite works that way, but hey.

Aha!  That's why I threw in the gorging itself on brains part, because our politicians are content to just keep feeding the zombie.  They don't grasp the part about eventually running out of other people's brains part.

But mainly I just wanted to use a zombie metaphor.

33 Also on SS: Why are we complaining about people getting to keep more of their own money?  I'm confused.

Is it simply because we suspect shenanigans? (which, I admit, makes some sense).  Or is it because we should automatically oppose anything the Democrats want?  Or is there some actual conservative principle I missed where I should not be happy about getting to keep more of my own money?

Especially given that we've all been on the 'SS is DOOM!ed' train for quite some time anyway.

34 I don't think Boomers get all the credit/blame.  SS was enlarged to include disability (think Big Baby and his diapers), and even illegals.  Had it been kept to seniors, it should have been closer to solvency.  Although the Boomers are a large segment, they were  also a large segment of contributors.

35 Also on SS: Why are we complaining about people getting to keep more of their own money?

Mainly because you'll be giving it all back (and then some) not far down the road when the Donks (try to) push taxes higher to make up the shortfall.

36 They don't grasp the part about eventually running out of other people's brains part.

So they're betting on being eaten last?

And I bet they're not even smart enough to know to shoot the "Survivors" of any zombie attack.

37 Mainly because you'll be giving it all back (and then some) not far down the road when the Donks (try to) push taxes higher to make up the shortfall.

Okay- so, because we suspect shenanigans.  I'm okay with that, I just wanted to make sure we're not being contrary for contrariness' sake.

38 Good Doomy Monday, all.

There was no Doom post Friday but starting then I've been not quite so glum.

Perhaps it's because the wife got her Christmas shopping done (and green lighted my 1911 purchase ). Maybe it's because I actually made a milestone on the project I'm assigned to that I wish would DIAF.

But that led into a decent weekend. IDPA match. Then led the Choir at Church in the Christmas program and it went better than it had in any of our practices for the past month.

So, at least I'll have some bright spots as the cloud of economic doom descends.

39

If the payroll tax cut keeps getting extended, it may finally do the job

 

Meh.  Saying that extending the payroll tax cut will kill SS is like suggesting there was at some time a "lock box" of SS money.  Federal tax money doesn't go toward paying for anything in real life.  Federal tax is simply a cash drain for controlling the money supply, and modifying behavior.

Besides - right now the federal tax receipts are back to record highs.  Any tax increase threatenes to derail that.  The last thing we need is another tax increase on consumers.

40 There is a lot of money to be made if you can solve some of the biggest problems in the world. Slick one, Monty. Every last one of the five listed problems are problems only because of government interference.

41

Mainly because you'll be giving it all back (and then some) not far down the road when the Donks (try to) push taxes higher to make up the shortfall.

Posted by: Monty at December 12, 2011 09:42 AM (/0a60)

 

Suits me.  I could be dead by then. 

 

42 i wonder if a doctor ever told an obese patient that they were "too big to fail".......

43 The real reason why Chicago/Illinois is boned is because no matter how many times the corrupt politicians or union scum get busted this city/state keeps voting the same crooks in and keeps giving everything to the corrupt unions. No matter how much they have personally profited and bankrupted the place the idiots in this state apparently are too stupid or beholden to the crooks to get rid of them. This whole state is a corrupt joke starting with that crooked SOB Quinn

44 Lowe's is getting grief from people about pulling their ads from that Muslim reality show, who want to see apologies and "community outreach.".  I never do this but I am sending a message of support to Lowe's via corporate website, not out of bigotry but because I hate the professional victim schemes of CAIR and its PC allies, and I hope Lowe's doesn't cave into them.  Enough already. 

45 I always parse 'too big to fail' as 'too big'.  Let nature run its course.

Yeah it sucks if you're in the middle of it, but if you don't impoverish everyone else needlessly to delay the inevitable, you can still recover in fairly short order.  The whole thing is like what happened in the transcripts from that Airbus accident--the pilots don't know any better, so they do the worst things possible while proclaiming loudly they're doing all they can.

46 21 How is it that Barky can't control the weather when he is best of buds with Weathermen?
________

Dick Cheney forgot to leave him the keys to HAARP?

47 Thanks Monty.  Good stuff as always.

48 Governments, turning problems into catastrophes since the beginning of time.

49

Not that I get much internet time these days, but Monty's DOOM thread is the best thing of its sort on the Net that I know of.

Thanks.

50 My problem with the "too big to fail" theory is just this: it's fascist, in the classical sense. Any "too big to fail" entity is, by definition, an agent of the state because it is the state that vouchsafes its existence. As noted Fascist Mussolini wrote: "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."

An engineering protection against failure is redundancy. This is just a fancy way of saying "never put all your eggs in one basket". When you have a diversified, dispersed industry, a failure of one node does not jeopardize the whole structure. But when you have a giant centralized node and not much outside, a failure of that node is catastrophic and potentially mortal.

51

For the most part, everywhere democrats are in control - the economy sucketh.

So, what do people do?  They vote in the same economic morons who promise the same old tired Paul Krugman poison pill. Good thinking.

52 Look back into Krugman (Enron advisor) post 9/11 directly calling on Greenspan to create a housing bubble to save the economy.

53 Former Enron Financial Adviser Paul Krugman

54 I hate facebook, but I want to be able to click this "Doom" thing and post it on facebook.

55 The Dems are releasing an ad calling Newt the "Original" Tea Partier? And they think that will hurt him?

56 They're running out of room to maneuver. It will all be over soon with the complete collapse of the Euro and the European Union. It's not going to be pretty. America will more than likely be unable to stave off it's own downfall.

57

IDPA match. Then led the Choir at Church

Need to come up with a way to combine the two.  Combat Choral Group or some such.  The Holy Handgunners.

58
  Keep wondering if all the funds collected to fund SS had actually been used to do just that, where the program would be now?  And would there be the intense discussion ?

59 55: Perhaps they want to help him in the primary, figuring he is easy to slay in the general. Who knows with Dems, even in campaigns they spend like a con that found an active credit card. Its all others people's money with them.

60 Jerusalem's Mugrabi Bridge closed Western Wall Heritage Foundation closes bridge connecting Kotel and Temple Mount despite Jordan's warning due to safety hazards detected by Jerusalem city's engineer who says structure is highly flammable. Move draws extensive criticism by Palestinians Another reason I hate Palestinians ( as if I need another reason) 1) this "Bridge" has NO historical significance and was built 25 years ( I could be off on the years) ago or so as a temporary structure. 2) there are 5 other open ways to get onto the Temple Mount 3) Oh and this "Bridge" is basically only used by non-muslims to get onto the Temple Mount, so why do they freaken muslims care anyway? 4) did I mention I hate muslims?

61 But.....But...But....But... Barry Obama ordered the Sun to rise this morning. Is this not enough proof ????

62  Keep wondering if all the funds collected to fund SS had actually been used to do just that, where the program would be now?

Why wonder about a complete fantasy?  I mean, beyond personal amusement factor. 

That money was always being sent directly to the general fund (or may as well have been), and any protestations otherwise (by politicians) are lies.

63 60
Jerusalem's Mugrabi Bridge closed
Western Wall Heritage Foundation closes bridge connecting Kotel and Temple Mount despite Jordan's warning due to safety hazards detected by Jerusalem city's engineer who says structure is highly flammable. Move draws extensive criticism the usual histrionic whining and bitching by Palestinians
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 12, 2011 10:11 AM (i6RpT)

Fixed

64

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 12, 2011 09:32 AM (i3+c5)

I would love to see someone actually explain to the oldsters that a.  there's no lock box, b.  there's no account with your name on it that pays you your benefits and c.  there's no actual legal right to any of benefits that you believe you are supposed to be paid.

Also, I would like one of the Skittles unicorns.  And a pony. 

65 OT:  A Christmas story that will bring a tear to your eye....

Marine tackles Toys for Tots as well as thief

http://tinyurl.com/bw7ygfu

66 57, my Church is about 80% senior citizens. The choir is 98% ladies.

The thought of them on the IDPA course is too funny to contemplate.

Although I wish I could get my wife interested. She'd probably outshoot me like she out fishes me.

67 AP reporting that the SC will rule on Arizona's immigration law.

Kagan recused.

68 64 I would love to see someone actually explain to the oldsters that a.  there's no lock box, b.  there's no account with your name on it that pays you your benefits and c.  there's no actual legal right to any of benefits that you believe you are supposed to be paid.
Also, I would like one of the Skittles unicorns.  And a pony.
Posted by: alexthechick at December 12, 2011 10:14 AM (VtjlW)

Those of us oldsters with functioning neural synapses already understand these three points.

I would love to see someone in the GOP confront young people with the reality that the Dimbulbs have no intention of reforming entitlements and that, come what may, it is they who will get stuck with the bills. Voting against your own economic self interest, kiddos, is simply insane.

69 @ 62

  Understand something, please. SS was sold as a fund--truthful or not--the explanation I and millions of others got was thus--it is a supplement to your retirement program, not retirement in it's entirety.  The implication was that all collections went to a common fund, to be distributed when the individual retired. At no time was this misconception addressed. 

  Don't intend any disrespect here, simply wish to explain how SS is and was understood by most.

70 AP reporting that the SC will rule on Arizona's immigration law.

Kagan recused.


EXCELLENT!!!...  tho Im thinking she's recusing on this case as a "show of judicial prudence" so she can stay on the Health Care case.

See!!!!  Im not unreasonable ....  I m a good judge!!!  Now get out there buy some federally mandated insurance you wingers.

71 SS was sold as a fund--truthful or not--the explanation I and millions of others got was thus--it is a supplement to your retirement program, not retirement in it's entirety.

Not Megan McCain, so I am passingly familiar with history. 

And I know you were lied to (yes, it was a lie).  I get that.  I still like to think there is some semi-equitable solution that will not a) mean you lose everything you were promised or (and, really), b) mean I lose the shirt of my back to pay for your retirement.

But until every single citizen understands that SS is a fraud, was sold by fraudulent means, and that it simply generational theft- no meaningful change can be made.

72 71
But until every single citizen understands that SS is a fraud, was sold by fraudulent means, and that it simply generational theft- no meaningful change can be made.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 12, 2011 10:26 AM (8y9MW)

Agreed. And address the colossal fraud that SSDI is as well.

73

  Understand something, please. SS was sold as a fund--truthful or not--the explanation I and millions of others got was thus--it is a supplement to your retirement program, not retirement in it's entirety.  The implication was that all collections went to a common fund, to be distributed when the individual retired. At no time was this misconception addressed. 

Yup.  That AARP ad that drives me nuts about how dare you cut *my* benefits that *I* earned is based on that premise.  I have been point blank accused of lying when I've tried to explain the reality of SS to retirees.  The response is but but but it's a fund, there's my name on it, I get the letters showing what's in my fund!  When I respond that those are, basically, nothing but lies, well, I'm the horrible one for pointing it out.  I get why people do not want to accept that they've been lied to for years but the math will always, always win.

I would love to see someone in the GOP confront young people with the reality that the Dimbulbs have no intention of reforming entitlements and that, come what may, it is they who will get stuck with the bills.

I'm upper end Gen X and I've been told since I was 18, if not earlier, that SS will not exist for me.  An extremely unscientific review of those in my age group showed that we all believe that, no matter political view.  There's a lot of very dark humor about how this will be handled.  Let's just say that ice floes may play a role. 

74 And address the colossal fraud that SSDI is as well.

If by "address" you mean "end," I agree with you.

75 Maybe it was a different time, but why did everyone trust the government to hold onto their money for them and pay it back to them decades into the future. I've known more trustworthy homeless people then the government collective.

76 There's a lot of very dark humor about how this will be handled.  Let's just say that ice floes may play a role.

Your circle is much nicer than mine.  Mine normally suggests bring back the Guillotine.  Before they figured out that a biased blade would cut better.

77 Meh.  Most of my circle says 'take care of your own.'  Which sucks if you didn't do the be fruitful and multiply thing, but that's what happens when you don't think life through.

Truly, this is an awful time to be sober.

78
New poll out!

a new Wing Ding Delight/Orange Julius poll shows Obama leading Newt by 7 points in mall food courts.

79 Posted by: alexthechick at December 12, 2011 10:28 AM (VtjlW)

SS is a socialist government program given to us by a member of the "greatest generation". SSDI is a socialist program given to us by a later member of the "greatest generation".

We are a socialist nation. You have no legal right to your own money in a socialist nation.

80 @ 75

 " A different time" is more apt than you may have intended. It was a different time. You might even call it the "Age of Innocence". Gov't was viewed differently, for the most part.

  Lots of things were unlike today.

81 Here....wanna slam your head into your desk?

Debbie Whatshername Shitz.....on unemployment.

http://tinyurl.com/88vlyrg

82

The Ohio Police & Fire Pension Fund keeps saying, "Have no fear, everything's under control," but I rather doubt that.  For one thing, Ohio now has fewer police officers than it did 20 years ago.  Also, the economy is teh suck, but anyone reading the Doom! ^tm thread already knows that.

On the other hand, Ohio has always required a 23% contribution of gross salary into the pension fund and stopped "free" health insurance for retirees about a decade ago.  So at least we're not as boned as the cops in California and New Jersey that thought they were going to get a pension without having to contribute into it.

This only applies to the OP&F Pension, I've heard that the teacher's pension is in shambles.

83 66 57, my Church is about 80% senior citizens. The choir is 98% ladies.

The thought of them on the IDPA course is too funny to contemplate.

Although I wish I could get my wife interested. She'd probably outshoot me like she out fishes me.

Posted by: Scott J at December 12, 2011 10:17 AM (KC2BE)

Heh.  Maybe they can just sing "Ode to Joy" while you run and gun.

84 Heh.  Maybe they can just sing "Ode to Joy" while you run and gun.

I'd have to wear an A-shirt and call myself McClaine.

85 69 @ 62

  Understand something, please. SS was sold as a fund--truthful or not--the explanation I and millions of others got was thus--it is a supplement to your retirement program, not retirement in it's entirety.  The implication was that all collections went to a common fund, to be distributed when the individual retired. At no time was this misconception addressed. 

  Don't intend any disrespect here, simply wish to explain how SS is and was understood by most.

Posted by: irongrampa at December 12, 2011 10:22 AM (SAMxH)

So, why do the oldsters get so angry at the prospect that we are going to keep that promise? It's just that, uh, supplement is the key word here.

86 73 I'm upper end Gen X and I've been told since I was 18, if not earlier, that SS will not exist for me.  An extremely unscientific review of those in my age group showed that we all believe that, no matter political view.  There's a lot of very dark humor about how this will be handled.  Let's just say that ice floes may play a role. Posted by: alexthechick at December 12, 2011 10:28 AM (VtjlW)

It's not a question of whether or not you think SS will exist or not (hell, I thought the same thing from the get-go). It's that the Dimbulbs have no intention of releasing you and your generation from the bondage of paying into it no matter what because they have no intention of reforming it, or any other entitlement plan.

87 Which sucks if you didn't do the be fruitful and multiply thing, but that's what happens when you don't think life through.

Indeed it does.  I shudder to think of the day I'll have to start taking care of my parents.  Luckily, I have two brothers to help shoulder that burden, but it's going to suck.

On the up side, my mom just retired as a teacher, so she'll get something like 60% of her "three highest earning years" salary for the rest of her life.  Which, by the way, is something she complains about, since it means she's not eligible for SS (yes, this is really a complaint she has).

88 It's that the Dimbulbs have no intention of releasing you and your generation from the bondage of paying into it no matter what because they have no intention of reforming it, or any other entitlement plan.

Which is why the word needs to get out as much as possible.

AtC, when you described your experience pointing out to the older generations that SS is a scam, I think of it like the "stages of grief."  Which just means you have to keep plugging away at telling them until they accept that it's true: they were defrauded, and by insisting that no fundamental changes be made to the program, they are only assisting in defrauding the younger generation.

89 So predictable: That 'What Happens If the Euro Collapses' article had less than a half-dozen comments before some idiot declared that capitalism had failed and now we need something else.

This has become the favorite Big Lie of the left. It is the new version of 'We have always been at war with Eastasia.'

90 Indeed it does.  I shudder to think of the day I'll have to start taking care of my parents.  Luckily, I have two brothers to help shoulder that burden, but it's going to suck.

It worked out oddly for me.

5 years ago mom had her 3rd battle with cancer and required chemo this time. I was in the process of thinking that through and my uncle (mom's brother-in-law) was killed in a car crash.

Mom's sister elected to sell her place up in Illinois and move in with mom (widowed since 1999) so she took most of the burden of helping her through the chemo process.

It's a mixed blessing though because my aunt is one of the most sourpuss wet blankets I know.

91 That was quite the Monday DOOM drop. Excuse me while I reach for my pistol.

92 Rhetorical and possibly legal question:

If there is a bank run in the US, and banks refuse to give depositors their money, is it a crime to threaten said banksters with a weapon? Because IMHO, if they will not give you your cash, they are robbing you, and when you are being robbed, aren't you allowed to take action?

93 This has become the favorite Big Lie of the left.

It's not like they have anything else.  And it's easy to demonize capitalism for a couple of reasons: 1: the spectacular number of "failures" in capitalism (what capitalists refer to as "creative destruction" or whatever).  2: the fact that we haven't actually had true, free-market capitalism in over 60 years, really.

Between the two, it's very easy for the Left to rely on purely rhetorical arguments and then, when confronted with substance, claim that you're "making it too complicated," or that you're "spinning."

94 92, national emergency would be declared long before it got to that point and will be used (as it has in the past) to ignore all sorts of our God-given rights.

95 If there is a bank run in the US, and banks refuse to give depositors their money, is it a crime to threaten said banksters with a weapon? Because IMHO, if they will not give you your cash, they are robbing you, and when you are being robbed, aren't you allowed to take action?

No if but when. Best guess is next Halloween. Also, they will lock down the banks so, who are you gonna wave the gun at?

And...anything you have in a safe deposit box will be locked up until they re-open...

96 #92

Nope. Look at the fine print you signed under when you opened the account. The banks have been on top of that little issue since 1929.

97 It's a mixed blessing though because my aunt is one of the most sourpuss wet blankets I know.

May as well take the good with the bad.  Make sure you get time with her to counterbalance sourpuss, it will help her a ton.

Mind you, this is what folks used to do in the old days, before it was every one for themselves, grab a gov't teat and to the devil with the hindmost.  Made for tigher knit families.  Makes me think there may be a silver lining to this whole round robin Charlie Foxtrot yet, if we play it right.

98 All of you folks wading into the fray "blaming" the baby boomers, or any other generation are playing right into the hands of the American communist party (the ones who put a "D" after their name instead of a C).

They have always been about divide and conquer. Most of the time they play the class warfare card for the press. The "evil" rich are the source of all our problems. But under the table they also like to see the generational fighting. As long as Generation "X" blames the boomers they are not blaming the ones who gave you this shit to begin with. And that my friends are the Democrats. The Party that has the same plank as the Communist Party.  Just remember who invented those terms "boomers" and 'Generation x" to begin with. Here's a hint, it wasn't conservatives.

And when their agenda is fully implemented, not only will you have no legal right to the money you earn, but you will not have a legal right to ANY property you own. We are about half way there now.

99 Also, banks don't keep that much cash on hand. Especially not here in Los Angeles, the bank robbery capital of the nation. Most bank robbers only get away a few thousand dollars.

To quote William Black, the best way to rob a bank is to own one.

100 It could be worse. We could be in Canada.

101 And when their agenda is fully implemented, not only will you have no legal right to the money you earn, but you will not have a legal right to ANY property you own. We are about half way there now.

Posted by: Vic at December 12, 2011 10:49 AM (YdQQY)

We have no idea what you're talking about.

102 If there is a bank run in the US, and banks refuse to give depositors their money, is it a crime to threaten said banksters with a weapon? Because IMHO, if they will not give you your cash, they are robbing you, and when you are being robbed, aren't you allowed to take action?

1) Banks will not "refuse" to give depositors their money.  They may run out of cash, but not being able is different from refusing.  In most cases, they'll offer to cut you a cashier's check (which is considered the same as cash by banks- by tradition if not law), or call you when their next shipment of cash from the Fed comes in.

2) Yes.  If you demand your money, and they "refuse" to give it to you for any reason, you don't get to increase the tension of the situation by threatening violence.  Nor should you.  For the reasons above: you're not losing your money.  At worst, it's all FDIC insured, and you'll get your money (or society will be collapsing, and paper money will be worthless anyway).

In fact, in today's society, a run on a bank is dumb in light of debit cards and ATMs.  The point of a run on a bank was to make sure your money would be there.  Since all "money" is digital (more or less) now, there's no reason (from a security standpoint, anyway) to carry your money in cash.

103 #98

OK. Can I blame the boomers for voting Democrat so much? Even after they turned thirty and should have known better?

104 And it's easy to demonize capitalism for a couple of reasons: 1: the spectacular number of "failures" in capitalism

When what happens doesn't meet their expectations, it's never cause to reassess their theories or worldviews, it's a "failure" in whatever it was.

I keep going over what would be needed for America to come out of this whole mess in something resembling its traditional decent form.  Given how many things require either unbelievable coincidence or over-the-top proactive action, I'm thinking divine intervention at this point.  It's going to take a couple generations in the best case scenario at this point...

105
There is no such thing as Wing Ding Delight, that I know of; I made it up.

It is a good name for a wing joint, though

106
  Enough dooming, gotta put the tree up.

  Have an excellent day, good people.

107

We have no idea what you're talking about.

Posted by: The Kelo majority at December 12, 2011 10:51 AM (v+QvA)

KELO is just a continuation of what stated in the 70s and 80s with the environmental laws.

108 OK. Can I blame the boomers for voting Democrat so much? Even after they turned thirty and should have known better?

Posted by: epobirs at December 12, 2011 10:51 AM (kcfmt)

What makes you think that boomers vote Democrat any more than anyone else?

109 What up???

110 Posted by: Vic at December 12, 2011 10:49 AM (YdQQY)

I don't see anyone here "blaming" the Boomers for anything except intractability.  We get that you were lied to, and we get that you think (well, not "you" specifically, since, IIRC, you mostly live off your own investments) you deserve back some of what you put in.  And we mostly agree.

The problem is that too many of the Boomers are refusing to see the reality of the situation- which makes it that much harder to make the structural reforms necessary to fix the situation.

To take your point a little further: we keep pointing out that the system needs to be changed, and you keep saying "You're blaming me!  You're blaming me!" and try to change the subject by suggesting any talk of "hey, Boomers, could you please pay attention to reality" is "generational warfare."

I'd much rather be on your side than pitted against you, but until you (the Boomers in general) realize that something fundamental has to change, we can't be on the same side.

111 I blame the folks who sold the idea of the government giving you something for nothing.  The rest was human nature playing itself out.

It's all so easy to understand when you start with premise one:  Humans are flawed, frequently selfish creatures.

112 It's all so easy to understand when you start with premise one:  Humans are flawed, frequently virtually always selfish creatures.

Fixed.

113

(Reuters) - TheSupreme Court said on Monday that it would decide whether Arizona's tough law cracking down on illegal immigrants can take effect, a case arising from the fierce national debate on immigration policy ahead of next year's presidential election.

The high court agreed to review a ruling that put on hold the key parts of the law signed by Republican Governor Jan Brewer in April 2010. The case has been closely watched because several other states have adopted similar laws.

114

Stuart Varney had an eloquent lady on this morning....a Brit....who predicted that the Eurozone is going to fall apart. ....And that the Euro cannot survive.

Nothing is "too big to fail". Not even countries. ....Not even our country.

115

>>>I blame the folks who sold the idea of the government giving you something for nothing. The rest was human nature playing itself out.

 

That's all government is, isn't it?  What else does government do?

116 I don't see anyone here "blaming" the Boomers for anything except intractability.

Well if you consider the fact that most boomers are either already retired or on the verge of retirement you can hardly blame them. All their retirement planning has including SS in the mix.

I am all for killing the whole program for those under 40 and phasing it out for those under 50.

Suppose you bought a house under a 25 year 5% mortgage and after 5 years the bank came to you and said sorry we are raising your rate to 10%.

117 112 It's all so easy to understand when you start with premise one:  Humans are flawed, frequently virtually always selfish creatures.

Fixed.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 12, 2011 10:58 AM (8y9MW)

Which is why it's best to keep that flawed, selfish nature as diffuse as possible, rather than providing it with powerful coercive government apparatus to manifest itself. 

118 Unrelatedly, Tim Tebow is now 42-0 in his brief NFL career. He has a 100% completion rate, 103 Rushing TD's and 74 Passing TD's this season alone, with 27 Fourth Quarter comebacks and 6 MVP Awards. Per the Elias Sports Bureau, Tebow has not come in less than first place since he was an alternate on the St. Crispin's Elementary School potato sack race team at PrayFest '93 when he was six years old. They came in second. 

119

>>>>Suppose you bought a house under a 25 year 5% mortgage and after 5 years the bank came to you and said sorry we are raising your rate to 10%.

And then the bank tells you that if you don't accept the 10% rate, then the bank will go under and you'll lose your house anyway.

I think that's sbout where we are.  What's better, nothing or something less than what was promised?

I feel bad for the boomers, as well as myself as I've been paying into SS for the last 11 years, but sacrifices will have to be made by all of us.

120

I've never understood the too big to fail thing.  No, you mean too big to fail without causing consequences that people don't want to contemplate.  Failure will happen, it'll just be later and even worse.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 12, 2011 09:32 AM

Too big to fail? Yes, I bought that rubbish too

121

AtC, when you described your experience pointing out to the older generations that SS is a scam, I think of it like the "stages of grief." 

That really is the best way to describe it. 

122 This is awesome, Monty.

123 Fixed.

Heh.  I was trying to give them some credit...

Suppose you bought a house under a 25 year 5% mortgage and after 5 years the bank came to you and said sorry we are raising your rate to 10%.

Counterexample, suppose you had said mortgage, then found out you were paying for someone else's house and couldn't have one of your own, but were forced to make the payments anyway.

See, this is why I'd love a return to mutual aid societies, families helping their own, and so on--I would love to manage a softer landing for the folks in retirement territory, but find it impossible to justify forcing younger earners who have it bad enough in what should have been their prime years to shoulder the burden for complete strangers who may or may not have done their own due diligence on the matter.

124 Posted by: Lincolntf who is pretty sure he has his stats right at December 12, 2011 11:02 AM (Qjh0I)

I'm certain those stats are correct.
My nephew (Buffalo fan, poor bastard) posted on his Facebook account that if the Bills had drafted him, they'd be 174-2 after 12 games.

125 http://is.gd/RGInwD

O/T, the link is to Legal Insurrection blog.  It is an interesting article about the election.

126 Suppose you bought a house under a 25 year 5% mortgage and after 5 years the bank came to you and said sorry we are raising your rate to 10%.

I don't accept that illustration: it's the exact opposite of what we're saying here.

Imagine, instead, a bank offered you a 15% rate on a CD for 3 years, and came back a year later and said "whoops, we can't afford that.  You can take 3% or we'll go under an you'll lose it anyway."

Well, in that case, I take my 3%  (okay, still flawed: a bank is Insured for a variety of reasons, including that one, but it still comes closer, I think).

No one is saying that it's fair.  No one is saying that it's nice.  We're not saying the boomers should be happy about it.  We're simply pointing out the fact that reality states that there's not enough money.  Not without enslavement of the younger generation, anyway.

And, again, we're looking at the "you can keep some of it, or none of it, those are really the only available options."  And every time we bring that up, we're told to shut up, and that it's not the boomers' fault.  Well, we're not trying to assign blame.  We're trying to fix the problem.

And- before you go there: yes, I know Medicare and Medicaid are a bigger mess: I think we should fix (read: end, as quickly-but-gently as possible) those, too.

127

there's no reason (from a security standpoint, anyway) to carry your money in cash.

Sure there is.  What if the power goes out?  Insty had a piece up yesterday, maybe Saturday, about things to have on hand for when TSHTF.  One of the suggestions is a couple hundred in cash in smaller bills because when the power's out, no ATM, no debit, no credit.  Cash is king. 

Hell, I had to get towed out of a snowbank and AAA wouldn't cover it because it was in a driveway.  The tow truck guy came out, got me out and then told me they didn't take credit cards or check, cash only.  I only had like $20 on me.  Luckily, the guy knew me since I had a crappy car that needed jumped a few times a month so he took the $20 and let me go in the next day to pay the rest.  Ever since then, I try to keep some amount of cash on hand. 

128
Remember when I said Jim Cramer is a retard-savant who was born with the unique ability to spit out the exact right words to get him on tv as a financial expert?

The words Jim Cramer, the retard, says mean absolutely nothing to him. He has no idea, literally, what he's talking about. He's a babbling idiot who just so happens to babble semi-coherent phrases of a financial and business nature.

129 Well I have parents drawing on SS so I don't mind paying in, but it sure would be nice if the MarxSpewMedia would not demonize all plans that attempt to reform SS and Medicare to have a gradual ending. But unless people wake up to the propaganda and toss the media elites out on their ears we are probably doomed to have a nasty crash instead.

130
anyway, Jim the retard Cramer made a prediction. Here 'tis:

"The White House won't change hands. Obama will trounce Romney and be voted in for another four years."

131 why did everyone trust the government to hold onto their money for them and pay it back to them decades into the future.

It's not like we had a choice.

132 Sure there is.  What if the power goes out?  Insty had a piece up yesterday, maybe Saturday, about things to have on hand for when TSHTF.  One of the suggestions is a couple hundred in cash in smaller bills because when the power's out, no ATM, no debit, no credit.  Cash is king.

Okay, but not "security of your money."  It's not like all your money disappears if the power goes out, you just can't get to it- like leaving your wallet at home.  It still exists but does you no good.

And I operate on a primarily cash basis myself.  It helps me stay on budget (if you don't use plastic, you can't spend what you don't have).  And, as you say, it's always smart to carry around a little emergency cash.  But that's far different from a run on a bank- which is what we were discussing.

133 Kagan recuses!  Kagan recuses!

134 As I said, the "fair" thing to do is phase it out for those between 50 and 65, end it totally for those under 40.

Both SS and the fraudulent SSDI.

135 Kagan recuses! Kagan recuses! Posted by: bernverdnardo at December 12, 2011 11:16 AM (xXhWA) Only from the Arizona case

136
what happens in a 4-4 decision in the Court?

the win goes to the Chief Justice's side of the opinion?

137 It's not like we had a choice.

THIS.
At the tender age of 54, I also got belittled (by a group of Gen X-ers) for recommending W's partially privatized SS suggestion -- even said I'd switch what I could to that plan if it went anywhere.

My IRA has actually made money this year (what's left of my IRA, that is ... I spent most of it foolishly and paid off my mortgages)

138

The simplest way to fix SocSec would be to eliminate the Minimum Wage.

*ducks*

The minimum wage came along after SocSec was in place. And having a minimum wage has killed jobs....millions of them.....jobs that would've been paying into the system.

 

139 136
what happens in a 4-4 decision in the Court?

the win goes to the Chief Justice's side of the opinion?

Posted by: soothsayer at December 12, 2011 11:18 AM (sqkOB)

The lower court decision stands. Which is why this might not be a win after all.

140 As I said, the "fair" thing to do is phase it out for those between 50 and 65, end it totally for those under 40.

I could accept that.

And I'm not trying to blame (or disrespect) you, specifically, at all.  The problem is that "the boomers" is often taken to mean "each boomer, specifically," instead of "the aggregation of the boomers, in a general sort of way."

But the fact is, the aggregate 'boomers,' generally, are intractable on the issue of SS, SSDI, and Medicare.  Until they're not, they outnumber the rest of us at the ballot box.

141

@135 Only from the Arizona case 

Sonofabitch...

142

The simplest way to fix SocSec would be to eliminate the Minimum Wage.

*ducks*

Why duck?  I think most people here believe the Minimum Wage should be eliminated.  Or, at minimum {heh} reduced to something actually approaching reasonable.  Say, $4.00/hr or something.

143 #108

A considerable number of elections in my lifetime and before where utterly awful Democrats won office and did lots of damage. But their predecessors were no better. They elected FDR FOUR FRIGGIN' times. I can understand keeping him during the war but in 1936, after he'd demonstrated an utter disconnect from economic reality?

But recall how the Dems had a lock on Congress and the Senate for decades? Consider who made up the bulk of voters during over half of that period.

I've never bought the 'Greatest Generation' nonsense. They lived through the Depression. As if they volunteered for that. They fought WWII. And what was their primary task during that conflict? Killing other members of their generation. Did the young Germans and Japanese on the other side count as Greatest Generation too? After all, the survivors built Germany and Japan into economic powerhouses.

No, these people just lived with what their predecessor stuck them with. The same way young adults today are trying to make sense fo what their predecessors have wrought.

144 what happens in a 4-4 decision in the Court? the win goes to the Chief Justice's side of the opinion? Posted by: soothsayer at December 12, 2011 11:18 AM (sqkOB) The lower court decision stands. Which is why this might not be a win after all. Posted by: joncelli, too stressed by half at December 12, 2011 11:20 AM (RD7QR) Which is why Kagan probably removed herself from the case. She and the liberals can probably count

145 But the fact is, the aggregate 'boomers,' generally, are intractable on the issue of SS, SSDI, and Medicare.  Until they're not, they outnumber the rest of us at the ballot box.

I always get accused of thinking outside the box.
As a 'boomer' ('4 , I'll be proud to join you at the ballot box.

I also like shifting paradigms, because of the unpredictability.

146 About Social Security....remember my post where I said, "You know you're in a crisis when all of your options suck"? Yeah. Frankly I give less of a damn about SS these days because we'll go into fiscal collapse long before it gets to be an issue if we don't start reforming other areas of spending *immediately*: Medicare, Medicaid, and state public-sector spending (particularly on healthcare and pensions).

And about having cash at the ready: I'm never without about a month's worth of salary in liquid assets (cash, precious metals, etc.) in my safe. You never know what might happen. Natural disasters, power outages, civil unrest, any of that crap can disrupt banks and ATM networks. Or I might find it necessary to disappear abruptly and without leaving a paper trail. You never know.

147 I might find it necessary to disappear abruptly and without leaving a paper trail. You never know. Posted by: Monty at December 12, 2011 11:24 AM (/0a60) Make sure you leave your iPhone and the Easy Pass in your car home, since they both have a GPS in them.

148

142....Why duck?

Thanks, AllenG. ....I've gotten pummeled for suggesting that before.

But eliminating the minimum wage would help Seniors too. There are a lot of them who would take part-time or lower-wage jobs to supplement their retirement.

149 I've gotten pummeled for suggesting that before.

You've gotten pummeled here? Wow, I didn't know we had any in the Cult of Minimum Wage here.

Eliminating most government oversight of business yields far more in dividends than it would cost. Of course, any lessening of the governmental burden might increase Liberty, and you never know what people might do with a little Liberty at their disposal. Why, they might create new things and think of new ways of getting old things done- and that would cause unemployment!


I hate Liberalism.

150 disappear abruptly and without leaving a paper trail

Formal by the book expatriation is for suckers.

151 ROFL, my team lead just sent this around:

As you know I'm looking for an FTE programmer.  Unfortunately, I'm not getting much in the way of qualified candidates.  You'd think there was no unemployment at all, much less 9%.  If you know of anyone who is looking and you know they're a good programmer have them send me their resumes please.

My retort was "maybe word has gotten out about our office environment".

We are open floor plan. No cubes. I have a neighbor 2 feet to might right and look at others 4 feet away across from me. It is noisy, there is foot traffic all the time. Basically an insufferable nightmare and 40% of the reason I want outta here.

152 But eliminating the minimum wage would help Seniors too. There are a lot of them who would take part-time or lower-wage jobs to supplement their retirement.

That's half-true.
Most of us would be eager to work for entry-level wages in our chosen field, but 5 bucks an hour is a bit insulting.

I'm doing hardware/software electronic development for $15.00/hr -- because I really love that type of work and enjoy the minds I get to work with.  (not talking management here ...)  Several companies turned down my applications when they found out I'd work full time for $25/hr -- I was making $40/hr at my last company (which moved).  I was "too old" (62) an unspoken taboo, and being willing to take a pay cut was some sort of red flag.

If Wal-Mart or Home Depot or Lowe's wants me to stand on my feet 10 hours a day for $5.00/hr (or $7.50) -- that's a different story until I start starving to death.

153 an avp and not even your own cubicle? that is sad

154 No, these people just lived with what their predecessor stuck them with.

Wouldn't be so bad, if the geezers would quit running up the credit cards while we're trying to pay it off...

DISCLAIMER:  Yeah, I know.  Not all elders are adding to the problem, not all youngers are trying to fix it.  You get the picture though...

155

I am so excited... I am defenitely voting for Obama:  The first lady announced in an email Monday that her October bid to break the record for the most people doing jumping jacks in a 24-hour period succeeded. Mrs. Obama says 300,265 people participated, shattering the old record. In order to achieve her goal, Mrs. Obama led about 400 elementary and middle-school students from Washington in jumping jacks on the South Lawn of the White House. Other jumping jacks events were held around the world on Oct. 11. The effort was organized by National Geographic Kids magazine in support of the first lady's Let's Move! initiative to promote physical fitness and healthy eating for children.

156 an avp and not even your own cubicle? that is sad

You have to go two levels above me to even hope of getting some privacy.

I'll see if I can upload a pic of the hellish conditions.

157 don't scott.....

158 Most of us would be eager to work for entry-level wages in our chosen field, but 5 bucks an hour is a bit insulting.

If skilled labor in the States drops to $5 an hour, insulting is the least of your worries.

159 Most of us would be eager to work for entry-level wages in our chosen field, but 5 bucks an hour is a bit insulting.

And the entry-level wages for most fields wouldn't go down.  Walmart greeters?  Yeah, that entry rate would probably go down.  Part-time work at Burger King?  Yep, I imagine that one would go down, too.  Computer help-desk type work?  I can't imagine that would go down too much.  Part of the price-point of that pay-rate is to get qualified candidates.

160 @151 I've never understood why programmers can't work from home.

161

We are open floor plan. No cubes.

Not even the prairie dog layout. That sucks

162  Or I might find it necessary to disappear abruptly and without leaving a paper trail. You never know.

Heh.  Boy BFF happens to know several lawyers and he has strict instructions that if he's accused of something call X, if it's tax stuff call Y and if he did it, then call me.  I finally had to explain to his wife that it's not because I'll get him out of it, it's because I'll get him disappeared. 

163 Twitter informs that there has been a long-simmering feud between Breitbart and Glenn Beck (news to me) and that it's heating up right now. I'm predisposed to Team Breitbart, so I read a few of the stories. Apparently Glenn Beck has an Internet TV show that he's going to use tonight to expose Breitbart's "Progressivism".

164 160, oh please don't get me started.

I want to try this http://gorowe.com

165 Obama is about to come on TV once again. Has there been any other President who has been whored out on TV as much as this asshole?

166 I've never understood why programmers can't work from home.

It makes micro managing difficult.

167 160 @151 I've never understood why programmers can't work from home.
__________

In my case, I do embedded and device driver work. I'd need quite a setup at home in order to do development.

168 @151 I've never understood why programmers can't work from home.

Actually, there are several good reasons.  If there are any programmers who don't go to meetings fairly regularly, I'd love to see that environment.  And conference calls are okay, but nothing is quite as good as an old-fashioned, face-to-face meeting.

There are other concerns- from security, to bandwidth, to "quality hours" with working from home.  Even those shops that try to allow it normally end up scaling it way back, or doing away with it all together in the face of reality.

169 If skilled labor in the States drops to $5 an hour, insulting is the least of your worries.

Maybe.
One of the other engineers asked me what it would take to become competitive in this country.

I replied: "Easy Peasy.  Drop the wage level to Chinese/Malaysian averages, and have the government own all the companies."

He uncomfortably agreed.
We're headed there, slowly but surely.

170 You think Chicago can't look like Detroit? Just give it time.

The whole country could look like Detroit with another Obama term. Should be fun.

171 #162

So, Beck read Breitbart's book? This is an expose? More like free advertising!

172 I want to try this http://gorowe.com

Couple that idea with "up-or-out" and I think you'd have a powerful "draw" for some good employees.

173 Posted by: alexthechick at December 12, 2011 11:12 AM (VtjlW)

That is a great idea, actually.

174 Obama is about to come on TV once again. Has there been any other President who has been whored out on TV as much as this asshole?
Posted by: Vic

You have to be kidding. He had an hour last night.

175 I've never understood why programmers can't work from home.

If they're working solo on a project, that's one thing, but mostly they don't.  Easier to keep everyone on the same page in a controlled environment.

This holds for most such fields, actually.  But you probably don't need me to tell you that.

176 I replied: "Easy Peasy.  Drop the wage level to Chinese/Malaysian averages, and have the government own all the companies."

Well, yes.  But you'd have to do both.  Just the first wouldn't do it.

177 And I do get to work from home on occasion. Generally my most productive days.

178

Posted by: Scott J at December 12, 2011 11:34 AM (KC2BE)

Scott J, what constitutes a "good programmer"?

179 Scott J, has your supervisor considered sending out the job notice to the local college?

180 "Easy Peasy. Drop the wage level to Chinese/Malaysian averages, and have the government own all the companies."

If my income slashes to a quarter what it is, but my expenses remain the same, yeeeaaah.  Expect riots.

And I'd like to see how you avoid that.  Price controls, deflationary cycle...

181 Skilled positions are still wanting for applicants because the hardest hit in the crash were the most expendable. Recessions always expose this and it can be an ugly thing. In the dot.bomb crash it became strikingly apparent that there were a ton of people pulling down remarkable salaries for the kind of HTML skills any reasonable bright person could pick up with a few months intensive study at home. The guys who could do serious back-end work were able to find new gigs quickly, for the most part.

182 Before the great collapse, contrary to what the MFM was telling you the US was competitive. We were, by far, the largest manufacturing country in the world. We were more than double what China was doing.

But if you really wanted the US to grow by leaps and bounds it would only take two things:

1. Eliminate Obama and the Dems in congress from office.
2. Eliminate every regulation written in this country since 1950.

183 I finally had to explain to his wife that it's not because I'll get him out of it, it's because I'll get him disappeared. 

Posted by: alexthechick at December 12, 2011 11:41 AM (VtjlW)

So "alextopia" really does exist, then?

184 134 As I said, the "fair" thing to do is phase it out for those between 50 and 65, end it totally for those under 40.
________

And for those between 40 and 50?

185 what constitutes a "good programmer"?

See here: http://www.hhhh.org/wiml/virtues.html

No, really.  Okay, those might be made to be a little funny, but if you don't have those things, you're not a "good" programmer.

186 So how long before the Jackhole Administration and the IRS begin paying our tax returns in food stamps?  I'm guestimating somewhere around the same time we hit 8% unemployment.

187 1. Eliminate Obama and the Dems in congress from office.
2. Eliminate every regulation written in this country since 1950.

Exactly, Vic.
How long do you think it would take for people to suck back into the notion that the government should go back into the business of protecting us from crooks and liars?

That's not a rhetorical question or an insult.
I'm wondering if it would be worth the effort, time-frame-wise.

188 Here's my hellish future: http://tinyurl.com/79vmeuv

That's the new model that's coming. The crap I have now is amazingly better. I never thought it could get worse.

The filing cabinet is padded on top for a visitor to sit on. That unit is set up for 4 people (2 on each side) and there will be row upon row of them.

The official policy from on high is that you get to bring nothing personal to that workspace but unofficially HQ looks the other way and leaves it up to individual manager discretion as to what you can add to your area to personalize it.

189 And for those between 40 and 50?

Should have said phase out for 40 to 50, maintain for > 50, eliminate for < 40.

190

Eliminating the minimum wage altogether would bring manufacturing back to our country.....all kinds of manufacturing. ....We're currently down to about 1/3 of the manufacturing that we used to have. That's why Soc/Sec is in trouble.

As more factories spring up, the demand for labor would increase....and wage levels would have to compete. Skilled labor would be at a premium.

Just get all the f'cking governmental meddling out of our private sector and watch it bloom. .....With millions more jobs, and the number growing, there would be plenty of revenue going into the Soc/Sec and Medicare trustfunds.

191
So after all the talk about student loans and useless degrees in the midst of the Occupy protests, what does one ritzy Manhattan school do?

NYU will offer two courses next semester on Occupy Wall Street.

192 Here's my hellish future

But....teamwork!

193 How long do you think it would take for people to suck back into the notion that the government should go back into the business of protecting us from crooks and liars?

Given that the government these days is largely crooks and liars who get reelected by pandering to crooks and liars, I'm not what you call optimistic.

194 Chemjeff, I don't agree with Spoolsky's politics but do agree with his views on IT. "Smart and gets things done" is what you want in tech talent: http://tinyurl.com/7ae7qjt

Problem is those sorts know better than to get into the life sucking abyss that is working in the financial sector. And, yeah, I know what that says about me.

195 Posted by: Scott J at December 12, 2011 11:53 AM (KC2BE)

That's nightmarish. I'd go postal within a month.

196 The filing cabinet is padded on top for a visitor to sit on. That unit is set up for 4 people (2 on each side) and there will be row upon row of them.

Are they trying to run off their developers?

Someday, someone is going to pay attention to what developers actually do (hint: just because he isn't typing and has his eyes closed really doesn't mean that he's not working), and there will be much rejoicing in programmer-dom.

Until then, I pity you.  I really do.

197 #191

Holy crap! An infinite loop. Perpetual students will major in studying what they did the previous year. Who needs life when you have that?

198

Here is what our near future is

199 But....teamwork!

Whatever. I know the real score. 20% cheaper than conventional cube setup. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

http://tinyurl.com/854p53u

200 185 what constitutes a "good programmer"?

See here: http://www.hhhh.org/wiml/virtues.html

No, really. Okay, those might be made to be a little funny, but if you don't have those things, you're not a "good" programmer.
________

I've always maintained that a programmer needs just enough arrogance to get far enough into trouble that he needs to learn something to get out.

201
Are they trying to run off their developers?

I honestly believe so. In the non-US business units there are no developers. Just analysts. They write specs which are sent off to coding slaves in 3rd world countries.

202 Eff Buck.

Eh, it's Monday. That's all I got.

203 "Smart and gets things done" is what you want in tech talent

You should see your tech folks under three circumstances:

1.)  When you're explaining what you need done,
2.)  The office Christmas party,
3.)  Their retirement party.

Any more than that and you may have a problem.  It can honestly be said that if you're aware of your IT department, it's probably not a good thing.  (Except when pay and bonus time rolls around.  Good IT people should always be noticed then.)

204 One aspect of cultural decline that should be an indicator of when things have gone too far to be retrieved: when we stop buying new stuff because the old stuff was better. Better-built, better-designed, and made of better materials. This is already the case with many things -- household appliances being a good example, and housing itself -- but it hasn't come to pass yet for electronics or cars or other stuff yet. But if we find ourselves holding onto old stuff because it simply works better than the new stuff...we know that the end is not far off.

One hallmark of failed/fallen civilizations is the death of memory: the knowledge of how to do things, how to conduct civilization on a paying basis.

This is evident in the gradual fall of Rome, where citizens had to look backward to the grand days when the aqueducts worked, when decent bowls and spoons and knives could be had, when the roads were maintained and guarded, when the denarii was worth the trouble of carrying it around. You can make the very same point about China, about India, and about the Central American empires.

205 That's nightmarish. I'd go postal within a month

I've been putting up with it for 18 months and have been unable to find an escape to another gig. I updated my Dice profile the day they moved us into it.

Now you all know why I was so gloomy on here last week.

206 We had a company meeting recently where the "5 year plan" was presented to all the employees.

Nice presentation, over half the slides included the term "stakeholder" and "investor", with explanations.

At the end, responding to the obligatory "are there any questions?", I raised my hand and asked what I think is a very simple question:

Why do you not include peon employees, like me, in your description of stakeholders?

I might mention I've never made upper management.
"Team Leader" on numerous occasions ...

207 Here is what our near future is

They even have their own DOOM kitteh.  Ahead of the curve!

208 It can honestly be said that if you're aware of your IT department, it's probably not a good thing.  (Except when pay and bonus time rolls around.  Good IT people should always be noticed then.)

The problem, from an IT perspective, is that such non-notoriety usually means you're not getting the resources you need, either, and so you'll end up in that "aware of your IT department" situation.

Since very, very few shops are dedicated IT shops (that is: they have an IT department to support their business, however dependent their business is on IT), it's too easy for the higher-ups to say, "Oh, we're not having any IT problems, you can survive with a 20% cut this year."  And then those same higher-ups start firing IT staff when things go wrong.

209 such non-notoriety usually means you're not getting the resources you need

That means the folks in charge have issues, I was referring to rank-and-file.

"Oh, we're not having any IT problems, you can survive with a 20% cut this year."

Still no cure for stupid.  Especially in management.

210 Since very, very few shops are dedicated IT shops (that is: they have an IT department to support their business, however dependent their business is on IT), it's too easy for the higher-ups to say, "Oh, we're not having any IT problems, you can survive with a 20% cut this year."  And then those same higher-ups start firing IT staff when things go wrong.

Or what I have taken to calling revenge on the nerds.

Those making the budget decisions probably picked on the IT folks (or people like them) in high school and now they get to continue to do so in their job. They see it as a win-win.

211 Still no cure for stupid.  Especially in management.

True that because if there was then the collapse of 2008 might never have happened.

212

So last week in the lovely land of Lincoln, the legislature passed a law (it's still awaiting the signature of the next jailbird.....I mean Governor.....)

The law was meant to rein in public sector pension abuses, and prevent teachers' union officials from working as a substitute teacher for ONE DAY and then claiming a huge huge huge pension as a teacher.  Which is apparently happening all the time in Illinois.

Of course now this week they already want to repeal this as-yet-unsigned law, because their buddies in the teachers' union have been squealing like the greedy piggies they are all weekend long.

213

204.....One hallmark of failed/fallen civilizations is the death of memory: the knowledge of how to do things, how to conduct civilization on a paying basis.

Yes! .....I heartily agree with that whole post, Monty. Well said.

Since I like to offer solutions, when I can....I would submit that getting our asses busy on a balls-to-the-wall Space Exploration program would be a healthy thing.

If we did not need 'planned obsolescence' to create the jobs of building new household items to replace the older, better, household items....then we could go back to building things designed to last as long as possible.  Because we would need lots of skilled labor in the Space Program.

I think as a species....we are at our best when we are exploring new things, new territories. ....Killing off our Space Exploration has hurt us, in more ways than one China and Russia are ahead of us on this now.

214
Liberal economics is like replacing a fuse in your house with a penny. It sort of works - until the house burns down.
 
With the whole state circling the drain; I have to ask: "Is California too big to fail?"

Answer:  We either let it fail - or it drags the rest of the country down with it.

Either California becomes an isolated third world area in the US - or we become a third world nation. Any guesses as to which scenario Obama prefers?

215

@18 Also, I'd like an actual patent lawyer to go over that first one they cited before I just take MR's word on it.  I know a thing or three about the business side of practicing medicine, and there's no way simply saying "Levels of lipid A between X and Y indicate a dosage of Z for Medicine B," gets its own patent.  Not that stands up if anyone challenges it, anyway.  At minimum, you'd need multiple markers that you were reviewing, and it would have to be markers not previously known to be related, or, at least, not known to be related in that way.

Prior Art works in Medicine, too, after all.

Bullseye. Short take: if you're not qualified in patent law, treat it like diddy-wah-diddy, and don't mess with it. I've never read a post by a layman that wasn't nonsense in at least one respect. That's not to say bad patents don't get issued - God knows, they do - but don't leap from that to proposing a sweeping change in the law. That's like citing a shooting, and deciding to repeal the Second Amendment.

216 Given what a pro-Euro rag “The Economist” is, this had to be a real shit-burger for them to eat. Yes. And no words can describe how delicious and filling was my plate of schadenfreude slathered in extra schadenfreude gravy to see "Charlemagne" eat every bite. "The Economist" was a big chunk of my airport reading when I traveled for work, and he was always the most vapid and arrogant of their writers in a stable full of them.

217 Depression. War. Forty years of darkness! A rain of fire! Rivers and seas boiling! Earthquakes! Volcanoes! The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!  A SECOND SEASON OF "WHITNEY"!

218 http://tinyurl.com/79eskt5

The LA Times demonstrates that you can fool some people all of the time as black voters try every possible rational for Obama's performance, other than he was a lousy choice.

219 When is this "doom" supposed to occur? This tard sounds like one of those global warming nuts.

220 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

221 Right suspicion, wrong ploy. The ploy is not to destroy Social Security, it's exactly what's going on right now; the Dems want to tie letting the payroll holiday expire to eliminating the Bush tax rates so they can claim the GOP wants to raise taxes on the middle class but not on the rich.