1 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

2 Why FEMA should not be bailed out.

FEMA is a gross distortion of the U.S. insurance system because it rewards bad behavior. FEMA creates many of our problems because they sell the insurance that you can't buy from a private company, which means there's a lot of danger. So we pay people to build on beaches, and then we have to go and rescue them. It's so far removed from the market and the understanding of what insurance should be about. Insurance should measure risk. It shouldn't be a bailout program endlessly.

FEMA is a real disaster.

Contrast that with the status quo where you'll find Romney:
As the former White House economic adviser Lawrence Summers put it, AmericaÂ’s role is to feed a global economy thatÂ’s increasingly based on knowledge and services rather than on making stuff.

3 Holder seems to have learned his craft from RussiaÂ’s Vladimir Putin.

Or from Stalin.  One of the two.

I keep looking at historical recessions and recoveries, and I have to wonder- what is it that makes some people so deeply invested in Keyensian economics and Government Interventionalism that they completely ignore history and insist on big "bailouts" and "stimulus programs?"  This isn't rational, and there isn't any evidence that their way has ever worked- so why do they buy into it so deeply?

4 Posted by: maverick muse at August 30, 2011 09:02 AM (lpWVn)

With all due respect to Mitt Romney (yep, even typed it with a straight face), America's role is to feed Americans.  We do that best by providing "knowledge and services" to the rest of the world.  If you begin mistaking the means for the end, however, you end up in the mess we're already in.

5 I just love the new rich, chocolaty DOOM.

6 A US Military of components Made In China or in an international industrial cooperative with Europe (using disgruntled Muslim immigrant workforce) doesn't best protect our national security.

7 Tangental but related:  Today, the morning show folks were talking about a study that says by 2030 (or something like that) half the population will be obese.  Then they started debating whether the government should ban fast-food restaurants from advertising on TV and Radio- citing (I kid you not) the "good" fact that they had done the same for cigarettes.

I nearly blew my lid.

8

The other degraded ecosystem.  Sorry, no Nobels here.  Unfortunately for these guys, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to back them up.  Yeah, I know.  They should have destroyed the evidence.

9 America's role is to feed Americans.  We do that best by providing "knowledge and services" to the rest of the world.

Taxpayers know that nothing is free.

10 Posted by: maverick muse at August 30, 2011 09:07 AM (lpWVn)

Meh.  You assume that they know that specific micro-chip or that specific wire/transistor/whatever is destined for a missile manufactured by the US.  Unless we're really outsourcing final assembly, I'm not terribly worried. 

Yes, those companies know they have US Govt. contracts, but they're contracts for X number of Y component, just like any number of other contracts with other companies/governments they have.  Any of the secret stuff is still done here on US soil (by groups like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Bell Helicopter, and others) and final assembly is still done here as well.

11

There should be a way to loudly support this.  Loudly.

Support.  This.

First step towards unDOOMedness.

12 A DOOM Thread? Is this about the NY Giants?

13 Posted by: maverick muse at August 30, 2011 09:09 AM (lpWVn)

Taxpayers (mostly) do, but tax payers are quickly making up the minority of Americans.  And that doesn't change the fact that the American Government's first priority should be the well-being of Americans.

Now, you and I (I have no doubt) think the best way to provide that well-being is for Government to be as small as is possible (and that's much smaller than most people think) and for the American people to unleash their own creativity and industry, but there are those who (stupidly) disagree.

What none of us should disagree on is the end goal- Protecting the lives, liberty, and property of Americans.

14 Tangental but related:

lol, pc for ot

15 "On Jobs, Time to Be Bold"

Robinson's definition of "bold" is basically "everything we've tried already, again." The left's cupboard is pretty bare.

16 Here's the winning message Robinson wishes Obama to send:

Eugene Robinson may win "biggest idiot of the day."  I feel dumber for having read that.

17 by 2030 (or something like that) half the population will be obese.

Previous news reports and Moochelle Obama insisted already that half the population is obese. Camera shots behind XL pedestrians "proved" it.

18 Posted by: Slublog at August 30, 2011 09:16 AM (0nqdj)

But, he insists, it's better than the "warmed over" ideas of Republicans: you know, things like letting people keep more of their own money, reducing regulatory burdens on small businesses, and generally getting Government's nose out of the people's business.

19 DOOMtastic!

20

This is just sad.  Poor stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure cannot catch a break.  Even these guys beat him to the punch with a jobs plan.

21 Obama to release jobs plan next week.  Center for American Progress was on vacation.  They will forward it over to the WH soon.

22 From the AP, via Fox: http://fxn.ws/n6gS4v

Money quote (so far) "President Barack Obama, hamstrung by budget cuts and a tight debt ceiling, is preparing a September jobs package with limited tools at his disposal to prime the economy and crank up employment."

23

The Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC),

Arrrggh, I can never remember the name of that thing.  Yeah, that's the next epic boning that's going to take place. 

My opinion of the regulatory scheme is well known *koff*delegation doctrine *koff* so I'm not going to beat that dead horse again.  Let's just say I'm not a fan. 

 

 

24

We have a president who can't even make a simple introduction without a teleprompter.

 

Teleprompter/Biden 2012!

25 Posted by: Soap MacTavish at August 30, 2011 09:25 AM (vbh31)

Worse, they completely miss the flaw in their plan.

Let's say the government takes $1 from you.  According to their theory, it just magically arrives in my pocket.  Now, assuming that were true, there would still be no net economic stimulus.  However, in the real world, that dollar passes through the Neverwhere that is our Government, and what ends up being doled out to me is closer to 50¢.  Giving us a net "stimulus" of -50%.

Yay Government Intervention!

26

After trying to finance the thing through insurance fraud, they are now trying to fund it with a $5 million government grant.

My bet – they get it.

27

 Will the last one out please turn off the lights?

 

We better not have to pay for these lights. Back in ancient Africa we got all our power for free and shit

28 The left just loves this shit, don't they? Confiscatory taxation is their magic elixir. The politics of envy.

If 2004 was all about the Iraq war, 2012 is going to be about class-war in America. This is a fight over what kind of country we want to be, and about whether we choose a spavined, constrained "decline" -- or go back to our founding principles.

It's going to be a bloody fight, and I'm not sure I mean that only in a rhetorical sense.

29 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 09:11 AM (8y9MW)

Meh?!

The only assumption I make on these matters is that the Air Force Magazine is reporting real concerns based upon facts. That magazine this past year expressed many times worries about components not simply with missiles, but the real potential of sabotage due to every machined chip on jets and ships now contracted from China. Also, the so-called "affordable" F-35 largely contracted to assemble in France took no time at all becoming the Trillion Dollar Fiasco. See "Lies, Damn Lies, and the Trillion-Dollar F-35" editorial by Adam J. Hebert, July 2011, Air Force Magazine.

30

Today, the morning show folks were talking about a study that says by 2030 (or something like that) half the population will be obese.  Then they started debating whether the government should ban fast-food restaurants from advertising on TV and Radio- citing (I kid you not) the "good" fact that they had done the same for cigarettes.

If the government cannot tell me whether or not I can put a dick in my mouth, the government cannot tell me whether or not I can put a donut in it either.  I am not a fucking child than needs to be fucking told by My Betters how to live my fucking life.  Neither am I so lacking in self-determination that I am unable to resist the siren call of advertising.  Fuck.  Them.  Sideways.  With.  Cheney's.  Warcock.

Why, yes, I have an opinion about this topic, why do you ask?

31 Can't believe Monty hasn't posted his recent appearance on the News.

32

5 I just love the new rich, chocolaty DOOM.

 

Too much cacoa! And we were told he was going to tell his peeps to pull up their pants. Funny.

33 haha Chuck Todd is on MSNBC wondering if Rick Perry is too manly.

hahahahaha

34  Keynes Klown Kollege - otherwise known and yet another robot stupid from an ivy league snoot kollege.

35 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 09:13 AM (8y9MW)

Yep.

36 Did anyone see where Obama flew his bus from town to town?

TOTUSbus?

37 Posted by: alexthechick at August 30, 2011 09:30 AM (VtjlW)

They asked for caller opinion, mine was "This may not be the stupidest thing I've ever heard, but it's pretty close."

Posted by: maverick muse at August 30, 2011 09:30 AM (lpWVn)

Yes, mm, "Meh." 

I have a little knowledge of how these things get done, and it would be very, very difficult to sabotage the specifically American components- at least, in any way that wouldn't be fairly obvious.  I do have a problem if the F-35 is being assembled in France (that bugs me to no end), but, until they're actually packaged and marked for delivery, no one in the factory knows which specific chips/wires/switches are going to American contracts.   So, to be sabotaging those components, they'd have to be sabotaging everybody's components- which is not a good way to stay in business.

At least, that's true of the "base" components.  I do suppose it's possible we have intermediate components which, by their design, could be determined to be American.  If that's the case, those might be more susceptible to sabotage.

38

>>>.It's going to be a bloody fight, and I'm not sure I mean that only in a rhetorical sense.

indeed, look at Wisconsin. The unions vandalized a private school Walker was going to speak at.

Normally democrat do things like slash tires and vandalize Republican party offices, but I can only imagine it's going to get real bad in 2012.

The Republican party seems to be in a public union busting mood, more so than its ever been, so I think that public unions are going to go all out in trying to stop them.

My greatest fear is that the Public Unions are like the people in Fight Club, they are all in positions in their daily lives to thwart democracy. They staff our city halls, our voter registration offices, our courts, our judges, police, fire departments, social security offices, etc etc.

They man the establishment.

I am worried that they will break the social contract and that people like me(and tens of millions of other producers) will completely lose trust in all government institutions.  Then we'll be on a quick road to something resembling a Latin American democracy.

39 But, he insists, it's better than the "warmed over" ideas of Republicans: you know, things like letting people keep more of their own money, reducing regulatory burdens on small businesses, and generally getting Government's nose out of the people's business.

Heresy.

40

Remember, this is the answer: 2.5 million jobs.  ThatÂ’s the number of jobs that everyone is granting that Obama created since he became president.  This article explains how to get to that number mathematically.  That way, you can be certain itÂ’s a real number – real jobs – irrefutable.

41 Keynesians are funny with their whole "multiplier" thing - as if any dollar going anywhere has the same effect on the economy. "Infrastructure" can really have a multiplier if you look at it as more than a job for some union guy to lay some asphalt or paint a bridge. If one creates something NEW - like a new port, or a transit connection between two points that were not connected before - those dollars CAN (but not necessarily) have a big multiplier if it allows for commerce that did not happen before. That would go on top of the dollars spent on the actual construction. Repaving an existing road can't have the same amount stimulus - it is just maintaining the status quo. It might mean "saving" jobs, but it won't make new ones. Putting high speed rail in where there is already a transportation system - like roads - might have an incremental improvement, but it wouldn't be huge. I don't see how a transfer payment like unemployment that will given to someone on the margins could possibly have a multiplier greater than one - it isn't like they will be investing in something new - they are paying the rent or their light bill or getting some food. Yes, that means commerce, but there is transactional friction there, a dollar in a transfer payment has to be somewhat less than a dollar in "stimulus."

42 anyone else heard about the dkos and FDL dumbasses planning to take over wall street in Sept? I check out those websites all the time to see just how nuts these freaks really are. It is really amazing-so far i've seen someone float the idea about hacking into Cantor's work computer and plant child porn on his hard drive. He said"even if he proves it's fake,it'll damage him", there was also a plan to hype Perry's stock in movie gallery as investing in a "major porn industry"-the chick putting it out there said "if we frame it just right,the religious right will be appalled and we can shave off a few points," now these freaks are planning to occupy Wall Street and try to take down the banks -it's being talked about openly on FDL. Heard it on the radio just now-this must be the reason they are keeping the  unemployment rates so high in the inner cities and with the black youth. Just gin it up and then send them out in a larger version of their flash mob robbings that they are trying out in Chicago and Phillie

43 I am worried that they will break the social contract and that people like me(and tens of millions of other producers) will completely lose trust in all government institutions.  Then we'll be on a quick road to something resembling a Latin American democracy.

I tend not to think so.

One of the things in the book I mentioned yesterday (The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History) that I hadn't fully comprehended (I knew all the facts, but hadn't put them together) is that the Founders were Conservative- even for their day.  They weren't trying to establish some new order, they were trying to get security for rights they already had- security that didn't exist in the English system.

I believe that, if the SHTF, and someone stands up for actual liberty, we'll be okay.  I think the way to guarantee that is to start talking up those things that the Founders believed: Self Determination, Self Government (none of them, even the biggest pro-strong Fed apologist would have wanted what's been done since the time of Lincoln), and Self Reliance.

44 I am worried that they will break the social contract and that people like me(and tens of millions of other producers) will completely lose trust in all government institutions.  Then we'll be on a quick road to something resembling a Latin American democracy.

So long as there is a middle class, we won't be a Latin American democracy. 

The left is trying their damnedest to destroy the middle class though.

45 If the government cannot tell me whether or not I can put a dick in my mouth, the government cannot tell me whether or not I can put a donut in it either.

Alex, my love, my precious love, my mountain flower, come to me and I shall ply thee with donuts and bearclaws and Ring-Dings of the valley.

46

I am worried that they will break the social contract and that people like me(and tens of millions of other producers) will completely lose trust in all government institutions.  Then we'll be on a quick road to something resembling a Latin American democracy.

I'd say we are already there.  Here's a quick thought experiment - you need a zoning permit to build a new gazebo in your backyard.  Your neighbor, who is the brother in law of the zoning enforcement officer, doesn't want you building it because it spoils his view of whatever.  Do you believe that a.  the permit will be issued with no problems because you are well within your rights to erect this structure or b.  that the permit application will be "lost" and/or you will have to submit detailed environmental plans to obtain approval of the gazebo and/or you will have to go before the planning commission over and over and over again before finally having the permit be denied.   I think we all know how it will go.

47 Alinsky's ultimate goal was nothing less than the “radicalization of the middle class,”

48 I'd say we are already there.  Here's a quick thought experiment - you need a zoning permit to build a new gazebo in your backyard.  Your neighbor, who is the brother in law of the zoning enforcement officer, doesn't want you building it because it spoils his view of whatever.

Zoning offices and the bureaucrats who tend to inhabit them make me see various and fiery shades of red.

That is all.

49 The only way in which the Obama administration could destroy the economy more completely is if they sent out fleets of B-52s to carpet bomb all the cities and suburbs. Literally.

50 Alex, my love, my precious love, my mountain flower, come to me and I shall ply thee with donuts and bearclaws and Ring-Dings of the valley.

You had me at bearclaw.

51

First step towards unDOOMedness.

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at August 30, 2011 09:13 AM

Yup. Right after we dispense with the services of the stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure. Until then, the Palis and other terrorists worldwide will have a staunch ally in the White House.

President Historic First would never let one of his biggest fan bases be hurt by a shortage of funds to do Radical Islam's dirty work.

52 More clapper humor from The Onion.  I'm old enough to remember when that website was funny.  Yes, kids...such a day did once exist. 

53

This should be comforting.  If we are DOOMed, at least we arenÂ’t alone.  The international space station is DOOMed right along with us.

54 I think we are in the middle of a ClusterDOOM

55 Posted by: Slublog at August 30, 2011 09:49 AM (0nqdj)

Okay, sometimes they make fun of Conservatives, and it really is funny.  That would be weak even if aimed against a Liberal.  Change it NancyP or someone, and substitute "Tax Increase" for "Tax Cut" and it's no funnier.  That was just stupid.

56 This Wall street thing needs to be talked about far and wide,busted wide open by the blogs and someone with better writing talent and better info than I. These freaks are planning an American version of the Arab Spring and they are planning to actually swarm,flash mob,mob Wall St whatever you want to call it,they don't care if they are arrested,people are hurt or killed,etc. The best way to get ahead of all of this,is if we all know about it beforehand. I heard Beck talk about it, and also Rush,it would be nice to see some on the blogs put out the facts. Forewarned is forearmed. I can just picture Obama tsk tsking and saying,"see we had no choice but to take this action for the public's safety" let's see how far will the ripples from this tide go out. Will it require "adjustments" to the 2nd amendment? This group organized on the internet-will the gov now "have no choice" but to monitor the internet more than they already are and then focus on those "single wolves" that Big Sis and Obama have identified as religious,or returning military right wing conservatives? It is easy to see the possiblities the governement can hype over this if yo look at the hysteria over a simple category 1 hurricane, the pig flu,etc. If enough people talk about and shine the light on this whole Wall St thing it might take the wind right out of it's sails and defuse the whole thing

57

Slublog

Yeah that was pretty stupid, but I thought this was funny:  Bill Watterson Writes, Illustrates, Shreds New "Calvin and Hobbes" Strip Each Morning Out of Spite

58

34 haha Chuck Todd is on MSNBC wondering if Rick Perry is too manly.

hahahahaha

 

What is Anderson Cooper's assessment? I think he is qualified to comment.

59 I do suppose it's possible we have intermediate components which, by their design, could be determined to be American.  If that's the case, those might be more susceptible to sabotage.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 09:37 AM

Hate to disagree with you, but every plane the Froggies build for us -- and every semi-major defense system component that comes from our BFFs, the Chinese -- has a computer/paper trail a mile long before assembly even begins. You (or even I) could go into the plants and, with a few minutes' searching, find out exactly where every airframe is meant to go.

Serial numbers: the enemy's best friend.

60 Everyone of those F35s will have customer specific mods, every halfway competent tech on that line will know where each one is going.

61 Okay, sometimes they make fun of Conservatives, and it really is funny. That would be weak even if aimed against a Liberal. Change it NancyP or someone, and substitute "Tax Increase" for "Tax Cut" and it's no funnier. That was just stupid.

They did some stuff during the 2000 election that was hilarious, even if it did take shots at Bush. Lately, though, they've been catering to a particular audience, and it's taken a toll on their sense of humor.

Yeah that was pretty stupid, but I thought this was funny: Bill Watterson Writes, Illustrates, Shreds New "Calvin and Hobbes" Strip Each Morning Out of Spite.

That made me sad. I miss "Calvin and Hobbes."  It was funny, though.

62 Chuck Todd hired Jonathon Martin 6 years ago.  There's that.

63

>>>Zoning offices and the bureaucrats who tend to inhabit them make me see various and fiery shades of red.

That is all.

Tell me about it. I am in a row with my township.

My downspout drains are pre-existing and drain onto the street. However after 50 years of paving, the street is now higher than the outlet pipe. So the water just sits around my house.

They've given me one option, build a sump pit. I live on a 9,000 sqft lot and the dimensions of the pit are 20 feet long, 6 feet wide and 5 feet deep.

So instead of being able to put in new drains that dump on the street for about 1,500-2,000 dollars, I'm looking at an 8,000 dollar job.

The problem at the heart of the matter is that my township is relatively small, some 8-10 thousand people, and it doesn't write its own zoning laws. It buys them from a bigger newer neighboring township. Since the bigger township is newer in terms of development, all of their regulations and zoning laws are written for lots with a minimum of 40,000 sq ft (one acre).   However our township is fairly old so the majority of home lots aren't anywhere near that size.

So I'm likely to be stuck building a freaking pit designed for a 1 acre lot on my .23 acres of land.

What's the point of local government if they don't craft laws that represent the interests of their local community.  They're doing the equivalent of copying and pasting a term paper, but instead of a paper they're "borrowing" zoning laws.  It should also be pointed out that most building codes are written by the organizations that stand to benefit from strict building codes.

64 Posted by: MrScribbler at August 30, 2011 09:52 AM (YjjrR)

That's what I'm saying.  If we're just talking about microchips/wires/transistors/whatever, or "just" hydrolic components, they get built at such a pace and in such quantities that singling out the ones for American use would be virtually impossible (or, at least, singling out enough of them to make a real impact).

If we're talking about fully built wing-frames for aircraft, for fully built motor-assemblies or something, that's different.  If we're doing that off-shore, I have a real problem with that.

65 That made me sad. I miss "Calvin and Hobbes."  It was funny, though.

Posted by: Slublog at August 30, 2011 09:55 AM (0nqdj)

I feel the exact same way.  I loved that strip. 

66

The only way in which the Obama administration could destroy the economy more completely is if they sent out fleets of B-52s to carpet bomb all the cities

well taking out Detroit, San Fran, Dearbornastan and various donk enclaves may just be what we need.

67 Are these charts legit? They seem rather dubious to me. http://www.opednews.com/articles/ Three-Charts-To-Email-To-Y-by-Dave-Johnson-110829-565.html

68

Normally democrat do things like slash tires and vandalize Republican party offices, but I can only imagine it's going to get real bad in 2012.

Posted by: Ben at August 30, 2011 09:37 AM (wuv1c)

 

I think you're probably right.  This is why I have long advocated that the Right establish 1930's style street armies.  Those who think the Left isn't already doing this unofficially are kidding themselves.  The Left always, without fail, is the first to go violent.  And the Right is seldom ready. 

Thuggery on their part will not be suppressed by the police - at least not in the big cities - they'll stand by just like the English police during the recent riots.  In many cases the police may aid in it.  We'll be on our own.  Even though far better armed as individuals, we are far less organized.  Organization is key.

The best thing the Republican party could do for the long term future is to team up with the NRA and work on developing a framework for setting up party militias.

69 Pivoting jobs jobs jobs, the latest MFM meme. Correction: The JEF is Divoting jobs, at a golf course near you.

70

>>>>I'm old enough to remember when that website was funny. Yes, kids...such a day did once exist

I remember they had an article about a gay pride parade that was one of the funnier things i've ever read because it was so spot on.

71 Brattleboro VT is a real town?  Who knew?

72 Posted by: Ben at August 30, 2011 09:57 AM (wuv1c)

I'm reminded of the CS Lewis quote (he's good for so many, isn't he) that "Now, if a man wants to cut down his own tree in his own garden (British for "back yard" -ag) and use the lumber to add a room to the back of his house, he needs permits and inspections until he doesn't know which way to turn" (Or something like that- I'll look up the exact quote)

I really freaking hate "Liberalism."

73

Posted by: Ben at August 30, 2011 09:57 AM (wuv1c)

 

I feel for ya.  It's a common issue.  Local tyranny is usually the most onerous tyranny.

 

74 Obama jobs plan to include investments in gay pride parades to stimulate the economy.

75 73 Brattleboro VT is a real town?  Who knew?

Ooooh, oooh, oooh!  I did!


_{Well, it's not much of a real town, but technically it's a town.} 

76 BTW, watching the flood news this morning, Patrick Leahy's ugly mug was on my television.  Ruined my whole day.  What a nasty piece of work he is. 

77 Okay, this thread is too slow...

Did anyone see Rick Perry's speech to the VFW Convention?  I only saw one excerpt, it was pretty standard red-meat stuff.  I'm wondering what else he said.

78 Meanwhile, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge that while we are boned, at least we aren't as boned as Europe:

Euro zone economic climate worsens

When that house of cards known as the Euro finally collapses...there will be only chaos.

79

indeed, look at Wisconsin. The unions vandalized a private school Walker was going to speak at.

For the children, you know.

80 @79
I'm watching it now.  Thx to the moron who put up the link to PrairiePundit, btw. 

81 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at August 30, 2011 10:06 AM (9hSKh)

I'll say it again: We need our own Burke and Locke out there spreading the word of Liberty, Self Governance, and Self Determination.  Now.  Before everything falls apart.

Is anyone actually saying these things?

82

Reactionary,

It's not even tyranny in the traditional sense, it's more a tyranny of laziness.

The local council just passed pre-written bills and codes. It doesn't seem to think it is worth the effort to tailor our codes to our community.

I can't say I blame them, no one shows up to council meetings that are 2 hours once a month. I've been showing up since I've moved here and it's normally me and some 70 year old guy in the audience.

There is no pressure on them to do what's in the best interests of the community. People in this country have lost the concept of civic participations.

As Ace has discussed recently,  Alexis De Toqueville noted that the difference between American democracy and French democracy was ours was built from the municipal level up whereas the French was a top down system.

As our central/federal government gets stronger and stronger, our local governments get weaker and weaker. It's not a vacuum. Increased Federal power comes from somewhere. In this case from local government and individuals.

As a result, people don't even show up to participate in local government. Most people don't even know who their local representatives are in their respective townships, cities, boroughs, municipalities, etc.

 

83 If 2004 was all about the Iraq war, 2012 is going to be about class-war in America.

Yes.

And with the preoccupation promoting class/race warfare at home, the media feels vindicated from mentioning the growing number of American sponsored wars kinetic actions abroad except to provide whole cloth messaging of how humanitarian war feels when coming from America. After all, by experiencing domestic warfare at home, we can truly empathize with terrorism being delivered after destabilizing Westernized Islamic nations. Given the twisted nature of revisionism, the media will declare without interest in victory that the war on terror has been won -- the can't beat 'em, join 'em analogy.

We should notice that it only took 10 years to convert many Americans from ready action against the official national threat from al-Qaeda to again openly sponsoring al-Qaeda. Furthermore, neoconservatives who framed the humanitarian war policy to win hearts and minds of enemies through suicidal PC rules of engagement, having admitted failure, bitterly promote the final solution for dealing with Reagan's pet Mujahideen is genocide of the entire Afghan population, as if the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Or directly referencing class-war at home, as if by fighting authoritarianism abroad, we needn't fight it at home where we must enable and empower it, disregarding what daily life functions yet have remained in effect from our Constitution. That's nothing new, given The Road to Serfdom, juxtaposing al-Qaeda over the Westernized strongmen.

One thing Fred Thompson reiterated was the paramount importance that LONG TERM EFFECTS must always have as the basis for determining American Policy. It isn't al-Qaeda that's changed in nature or purpose.

84 If the government cannot tell me whether or not I can put a dick in my mouth, the government cannot tell me whether or not I can put a donut in it either.  Alexthechick, it is my solemn promise that under my administration, NO ONE will ever tell you that you can't have a dick in your mouth. Or a donut. That's the Empire of Jeff Difference. Dicks and Donuts in 2012!

85 Brattleboro VT is more like a communist enclave noted for making cheese.

86

The next time I see Michael Barone, and I will see him again even if I have to go out of my way to do so, I am going to again have the Discussion with him.

Social Security is NOT an entitlement.

While as RIck Perry puts it, it may be styled after a Ponzi Scheme pyramid, it is a forcibly extracted taxpayer payment to the government in return for a promise to pay out a return premium at a later date.

You (theoretically) are only ENTITLED to Social Security if you have PAID into it.

Social Security is NOT an entitlement.

87 Did anyone see Rick Perry's speech to the VFW Convention? I only saw one excerpt, it was pretty standard red-meat stuff. I'm wondering what else he said. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 10:06 AM (8y9MW) Did anyone see obama's speech to the VFW? Oh yeah I forgot obama blew them off again. Never mind

88 Is anyone actually saying these things?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 10:08 AM (8y9MW)

You mean other than us morons?

89 I love that Perry is able to run as a veteran.

I realize that this election is about jobs and the economy, but I think folks are misunderestimating the plus Perry's military background brings to his candidacy, particularly in the primary.  It is a distinguishing characteristic between him and Romney, Bachmann, or the non-candidate. 

90 The ultimate failure is Obama's, of course; his only response to failure is to do even more of what has already failed. It's what happens when you let ideology trump reality.

But next week is glorious new Five Year Plan

91

Morning, all!

Dear Lord but that TNR story is a jibbering pile of stupid.  I need a shower now having read it.

Which reminds me.  It's been a few days since I've mentioned that Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

92 I'm in a bitchy mood today, so let me just insert that I'm sick of hearing about Vietnam vets as if they paid a greater price than other vets.  (Perry's speech is somewhat Vietnam-centric.) 

93

Posted by: Y-not went to college in Vermont at August 30, 2011 10:04 AM (5H6zj)

Middlebury or somewhere else. I don't know much abt it.

94 If we had 4 million millionaires in the United States, we could take everything they earned this year and pay off those three years of debt. Unfortunately, we have only 250,000 or so millionaires, so even if we tax them to death, we'd pay only one-quarter of $1 trillion.

95

EoJ, I am interested in your platform and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 Calvin and Hobbes They rerun a strip every day, I believe in the original publication order. Today's is particularly apropos.

 

96 Did anyone see obama's speech to the VFW? Oh yeah I forgot obama blew them off again. Never mind Posted by: nevergiveup at August 30, 2011 10:10 AM

Why does Our President have to go there. He got Bin Laden, wasn't that enough?

97 Social Security is NOT an entitlement.

You keepa usin' that word.  I do na think it means what you think it means.

The (Government) definition of entitlement is "something you have to be given if you qualify for it."  Part of the qualifications for SS is, indeed, that you have to have paid into it.  However, having paid into it and reached one of the other eligibility requirements (disability, age, a few others, I think) you are entitled to that payment.  So, yes, it's an entitlement.

If that's not an entitlement, what is?  Name me something.  All entitlements have some kind of qualification: most of them have multiple criteria you have to meet.

98

You mean other than us morons?

Posted by: Insomniac at August 30, 2011 10:12 AM (v+QvA)

Yes.

99 Middlebury or somewhere else. I don't know much abt it.

Burlington area.  I actually went to Leahy's (undergraduate) alma mater.  What a blot on an otherwise good institution. 

100 So, to be sabotaging those components, they'd have to be sabotaging everybody's components- which is not a good way to stay in business.

/As if bureaucratic governments (US specifically) are required to stay within budgets. /

The sabotage of our Air Force is the concern expressed by the Air Force Brass, personnel and retired Military community.

And yes, our entire allied forces could be sabotaged.

101 I'll say it again: We need our own Burke and Locke out there spreading the word of Liberty, Self Governance, and Self Determination.  Now.  Before everything falls apart.

Is anyone actually saying these things?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 10:08 AM (8y9MW)

Okay, my eyes are watering b/c I forgot my allergy meds this morning, and for a moment there I thought that read, "We need our own Burke and Hare."  Which struck me as odd, because if anyone is (metaphorically) murdering the healthy to make money off their flesh, it's the leftists. 

*shaking head to clear cobwebs*

Maybe more coffee would help.

102 Brattleboro VT is a real town?  Who knew?

Brattleboro is where the young un's, because there was no law specifically against, decided to hang out nude downtown last summer .

I personally have nothing against that, but it included the under-aged as well, and that's where I draw the line.

 They finally put a law on the books banning it, but I personally feel that there should be an exception  females 18 and up... and weight to height appropriate, of course....
...and no gross tattoos. I don't get that fad.

103 I'm in a bitchy mood today, so let me just insert that I'm sick of hearing about Vietnam vets as if they paid a greater price than other vets.  (Perry's speech is somewhat Vietnam-centric.)

Yeah, but most of the VFW members who are left are Vietnam vets. Even the Korea vets are starting to die off, now.

And, in some ways, they did pay a greater price- not in bodily harm or most other things like that, but in having their government and the people turn their backs on them.  There had been anti-war protestors since (at least) the Civil War, but never on the scale or with the media backing that they got in Vietnam.

104 I know it's calling SS "welfare" is supposed to be for effect, but it does not make me shun it more or whatever.  I completely understand how as someone ages they might end up needing "welfare."  Shit happens and if you outlive your money, either because of medical bills or for other reasons, that's life. So if it's supposed to make me feel badly that I would like to have some version of SS still available when I'm old, it's not working.  And I certainly don't look down on people who in their old age need their SS checks. 

105 Nice try - we all know that Turn out the Lights is raaaaaaaacist code!

106

From MSDNC:

 

The Washington Post sums up the current debate in the West Wing regarding President Obama’s upcoming economic plan: Does he go big and pick a fight with Congress? Or does he try to craft some smaller measures that could pass a divided Congress? “ehind the scenes Obama and top aides had yet to reach agreement on the major tenets of that plan, and it remained unclear whether the president was looking for narrower ideas with a realistic chance of passing the Republican-led House or more sweeping stimulus proposals that would excite his liberal base and draw contrasts with the GOP.” The downside to going big: The American public (especially independents) is no longer in favor of stimulating the economy by spending more money, but they do want some REAL solution to this wheezing economy. The downside to going small: Obama has racked up plenty of tactical legislative accomplishments, but he hasn’t gotten credit for them.

Hence the dilemma for the White House -- which is leading to real disagreements in the West Wing over where to go next. One gets the sense Team Obama is surprised by how much damage the president suffered during the debt ceiling debate. Many folks in the president's circle thought he'd get more credit with the public for looking like the reasonable guy in the room. A miscalculation?

 

So Barry isn't trying to find the best solution for the economy just the best politically advantageous solution for himself. And the idiots who commented on this story are still guzzling the Barry Kool Aid

107 Social Security is NOT an entitlement.

MAYBE IF YOU YELL LOUDER IT WILL BECOME TRUE!!!

Social Security is a transfer payment from young to old. Period. It's a tax, not a pension. The money a recipient gets is not taken from some account that the person paid into over the years; it is forcibly extracted from current workers. If beneficiaries outnumber the (net) taxpayers (as they do now), the difference can only be made up by either jacking up taxes or issuing new debt -- both of which enervate the wider economy.

It is not an asset. You can't sell it, buy it, trade it, or use it as collateral for a loan. You can't get a net-present value for it. You can't leave the unspent portion to your children as an inheritance. You do not own your "benefit" in any way, shape, or form. As Flemming v. Nestor showed, the Federal government can change the terms or even terminate the payment at any time without notice.

So you tell me -- if Social Security is not an "entitlement", then what is it?

108 So Perry's speech was fine.  It was appropriate to the venue, not a campaign speech.

I've read criticism of his "foreign policy" based on this speech, I guess.  I don't see a problem with it.  He is for America getting into fights that are in its interests and that it can win.  He's for using our alliances to fight those fights, but he does not ever want to concede leadership of our troops to foreign commanders.  And he wouldn't sit on his hands indefinitely waiting for consensus if a fight needs fighting. 

Seems like standard Republican rhetoric to me. 


I denounce my neocon interventionist self. 

109 100

You mean other than us morons?

Posted by: Insomniac at August 30, 2011 10:12 AM (v+QvA)

Yes.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 10:16 AM (8y9MW)

Wish I had a good answer, pal. 

110 @ Y-Not, Have you considered a Sugar Daddy? I hear they're all the rage.

111

Yeah that was pretty stupid, but I thought this was funny:  Bill Watterson Writes, Illustrates, Shreds New "Calvin and Hobbes" Strip Each Morning Out of Spite

Posted by: Insomniac at August 30, 2011 09:52 AM (DrWcr)

To whom is he doing it out of spite...and why?. I read the link, but it's not clear.

112 How much more DOOM! could there be?  None.  None more DOOM!

113

 Calvin and Hobbes They rerun a strip every day, I believe in the original publication order. Today's is particularly apropos.

 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 30, 2011 10:15 AM (VtjlW)

Yep, that pretty well sums up the mindset of the 52%ers...

114 94 I'm in a bitchy mood today, so let me just insert that I'm sick of hearing about Vietnam vets as if they paid a greater price than other vets.  (Perry's speech is somewhat Vietnam-centric.) 
Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 10:14 AM

The others were treated as heroes when they got home. The Nam vets were spit on and treated worse than axe murderers

As Sgt Worcester said ... "it don't mean nothin' "

115 @112
I have one and I take damned good care of him, too.  ;-)

116 Looks like "The Marks" (aka, taxpaupers) are starting to catch on to the fact that they are, in fact, "The Marks" (courtesy of ZH: http://bit.ly/pAUimw)...

August consumer confidence plummets from 59.2 to 44.2, far below consensus of 52, dropping to its lowest level since April 2009.

I'll take my DOOM! with a side of (Canadian) bacon, thanks.

117 I'm here in the state with likely the greatest number of retired public schoolteachers in the country.  No problem for them.

They average in at about $75K per year, with the income protected from state and local taxes, and many are in two-pension households.  The creme de la creme, maybe a fifth of them, gamed the system and retired early, then nailed down another gummint job, and now draw two pensions.

Ain't that sweet?  Their Priuses (I like to call them Pius) already sport Obama 2012 bumper stickers.

The big government crowd!  They would vote D if the donks were running the JEF's alcoholic illegal-alien uncle.

Anchors aweigh!  Except that we are tied to the anchors.

118 I'm 49 today, btw. 

The sad thing is, I was convinced I was turning 48 today until Mr Y-not corrected me.  I think that warrants 10 lashes with a wet noodle, don't you ladies? 

119 And, in some ways, they did pay a greater price- not in bodily harm or most other things like that, but in having their government and the people turn their backs on them. There had been anti-war protestors since (at least) the Civil War, but never on the scale or with the media backing that they got in Vietnam. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 10:19 AM (8y9MW) That's so true. When I'm in Uniform people are always trying to buy me drinks or at least say hello ( especially in the south ). Those guys from the Vietnam War got spit on.

120 Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 10:21 AM (5H6zj)

The problem with SS is that it puts young people in Kansas on the hook for the well-fare of old people in Oregon.  That's not how it should be.

For better than a century, people in the US managed to take care of their own elderly family members without government intervention.  Even completely crippled (which actually meant something, back then) family members. 

Now, that has changed- both governmentally and culturally- since the New F-ing Deal and people aren't as well equipped to do so anymore.  I get that.  I don't have a problem with charting a course that "dials down" social security while allowing younger people to "dial up" their own ability to care for themselves and their loved ones.

And, before you say, "Well, families lived closer together then."  Remember that, even back then, a child might leave their family back east to go west and "Find their fortune."  Arrangements could be made, even back then, and it's even easier today.

My parents reared me, clothed me, and fed my brothers and me for 18 years.  I don't think it's too much of a stretch for us to do the same for them if they need assistance when they're too old to care for themselves.

121 Burlington area.  I actually went to Leahy's (undergraduate) alma mater.  What a blot on an otherwise good institution. 

Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 10:17 AM (5H6zj)

Vermont is a lovely place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.  Too many hippies and wild-haired professor types (BIRM).

It always fascinates me how, driving through Vermont, you can have beautiful, clearly expensive homes shoulder to shoulder with the most ramshackle shanty houses.  I don't know how it is in other states, but at least in NH as you drive along you can generally tell when you're in the ritzy part of town or the poorer part of town, and there's a gradual transition between the two.  It always makes me wonder what the property values must be like for either: does the shanty pull down the value of the mansion?  Does the mansion up the property taxes on the shanty?  Do the rich snobs in the mansion look down their noses at the legacy occupants of the shanty house?  Do the shanty-dwellers urinate on the mansion-owner's mailbox?  So many questions.

122 120 I'm 49 today, btw. 

The sad thing is, I was convinced I was turning 48 today until Mr Y-not corrected me.  I think that warrants 10 lashes with a wet noodle, don't you ladies? 

Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 10:27 AM (5H6zj)

Happy Birthday Y-not! 

123 MAYBE IF YOU YELL LOUDER IT WILL BECOME TRUE!!!

That's my operative life choice.

Y-not, no jury of your peers.  Just.  Sayin'.

 

124 I'm 49 today, btw.

All together now:

"This is your birthday song; it isn't very long."

125 >>So you tell me -- if Social Security is not an "entitlement", then what is it? A unicorn. I don't plan on seeing one of them either.

126 It always fascinates me how, driving through Vermont, you can have beautiful, clearly expensive homes shoulder to shoulder with the most ramshackle shanty houses.  I don't know how it is in other states, but at least in NH as you drive along you can generally tell when you're in the ritzy part of town or the poorer part of town, and there's a gradual transition between the two.

Burlington was a great college town when I was there (in the 80s) and not particularly liberal.  Vermonters were the stereotypical New Englanders: stoic, reserved, wary of outsiders, but basically good people. 

The zoning thing.  Yeah, well I notice that everywhere I've lived, but I grew up in a planned community.  Houston was one of the worst for having great houses next to dumps, but Utah is pretty bad too.  I think Western Mass and Upper NY state are worse than Vermont, or they used to be.  At least VT was controlling things like billboards so their highways were attractive. 

127 It always fascinates me how, driving through Vermont, you can have beautiful, clearly expensive homes shoulder to shoulder with the most ramshackle shanty houses.

LOL, wasn't someone just talking about evil zoning laws?  Zoning laws can be abused and often are, but they do do some good.

We don't have too many here, just buisness, residential, farming, and mixed. Single family housing vs multiple family. And site built homes vs trailers.

Those zoning laws keep some corporation from coming in and building one of those industrial pig farms next door to me.

128 Mary Clogginstein's Brattleboro Home is underwater.  Seems like what goes around...Comes around. Is it still Bush's fault Mary ????

129

>>>For better than a century, people in the US managed to take care of their own elderly family members without government intervention. Even completely crippled (which actually meant something, back then) family members.

whoa whoa whoa, you're saying humanity existed pre-1933. No freaking way.

If our society hadn't destroyed the nuclear family, the transition from welfare nanny state back to the original(pre-welfare) nature of life would be a lot easier.

130 Mary Clogginstein's Brattleboro Home is underwater.  Seems like what goes around...Comes around. Is it still Bush's fault Mary ????

*GLUB*

131 If our society hadn't destroyed the nuclear family, the transition from welfare nanny state back to the original(pre-welfare) nature of life would be a lot easier.

Wow.  If I didn't know better, I'd think it was planned.  Like they knew that a strong nuclear family promotes independence and self-reliance.

132 AllenG,

Yes, SS is broken etc.  I guess I'm responding to the attempts to stigmatize people for needing it by beating the "welfare" drum.  So what if it's welfare?  If we are going to have any kind of government run aid, isn't it most appropriate to dole that aid out to people who worked during their younger years and now are too elderly to continue to work?   

Not all of us have kids to take care of us in our dotage, incidentally. And, based on the number of adult kids living with their parents, I'm not sure that system is going to work either. 

133 Happy Birthday Y-Not.

134

>>>Wow. If I didn't know better, I'd think it was planned. Like they knew that a strong nuclear family promotes independence and self-reliance.

 

heh

135 Finally, this summer’s golfing at Martha’s Vineyard has torn the curtain away from an image that Barack Obama has taken a lifetime to cultivate, to considerable advantage. He was decidedly a middle-class prep-schooler in Hawaii. He was not born into Clinton-like poverty. Occidental and Columbia are not Eureka College or Texas A&M. When Obama finally got some real money, he almost immediately bought a wannabe Chicago mansion and tried to enhance his grounds with help from Mrs. Tony Rezko. Nothing in Obama’s résumé suggests poverty — or disdain for elite enjoyment.

136 To the idiot's of Obama-boro, VT. Don't fret and have despair ..Your hero "Captain Fantastic" will save you with money from "RED STATES".  Senators (Commie) Leahey and Sanders will lick his balls until they turn blue to realize your socialist dreams. Have no fear little lemmings of Obama-boro, Vermont !!!

137 ^{"The Is The Way The Hopium Ends: Not With A Bang, But With The Biggest Collapse In Future Consumer Expectations... Ever"}
You know he's upset when he makes errors in the title.

138 106 I know it's calling SS "welfare" is supposed to be for effect, but it does not make me shun it more or whatever.  I completely understand how as someone ages they might end up needing "welfare."  Shit happens and if you outlive your money, either because of medical bills or for other reasons, that's life. So if it's supposed to make me feel badly that I would like to have some version of SS still available when I'm old, it's not working.  And I certainly don't look down on people who in their old age need their SS checks. 

Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 10:21 AM (5H6zj)

Having a certain amount of shame in needing assistance is a good thing, societally. There used to be a phrase "too proud for charity." That doesn't mean there's no one who should be given it, but making people uncomfortable to receive welfare is probably a good thing--except for the fact that in the case of social security it is and has been sold to people as a form of retirement savings (albeit mismanaged terribly if that was the intent).
But then again there's so many people now born and bred on dependancy that it's entirely a moot point.

139 The zoning thing.  Yeah, well I notice that everywhere I've lived, but I grew up in a planned community.  Houston was one of the worst for having great houses next to dumps, but Utah is pretty bad too.  I think Western Mass and Upper NY state are worse than Vermont, or they used to be.  At least VT was controlling things like billboards so their highways were attractive. 

Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 10:33 AM (5H6zj)

Holy Christmas, Vermont has highways?  When did they get those!?

(Kidding!  ^_^)

The zoning laws are pretty crazy in Vermont.  Good luck finding a McDonald's if you aren't a stone's throw from the NH border, I swear. 

140 136

>>>Wow. If I didn't know better, I'd think it was planned. Like they knew that a strong nuclear family promotes independence and self-reliance.

 

heh

Posted by: Ben at August 30, 2011 10:37 AM (wuv1c)

Shhhhh!  You'll let everyone in on the secret!

141 If our society hadn't destroyed the nuclear family, the transition from welfare nanny state back to the original(pre-welfare) nature of life would be a lot easier.

Huh, but I thought the key to ushering in a new Republican Golden Age was ditching all that social conservative talk.

142 Posted by: city gal at August 30, 2011 10:40 AM (k1rwm)

Fuck off, you babbling idiot.

143 Oh, and happy birthday, Y-Not! 

144 OK, I just did a bunch of google searches; as near as I can tell the F-35 is being manufactured in Dallas/Fort Worth. At least that's where the planes are rolling off the lines now.

145 If we are going to have any kind of government run aid, isn't it most appropriate to dole that aid out to people who worked during their younger years and now are too elderly to continue to work? 

Well, sure.  IF we're going to have government run aid.  I believe, vehemently, that we should not have government run aid.

There were spinsters and childless couples even pre-1930.  Somehow they survived, too.  Worst case scenario, their churches took care of them.

I know it would be functionally, if not technically, impossible to move completely away from the welfare state overnight.  I'm not proposing that.  I am proposing a general move away from it, however, back to a central government that was "finite and limited."

BTW- If your State wants to set up some sort of welfare for retired folks, I'm all for that (well, no- I'd oppose it strongly here in Texas, but I at least agree they have the right to do it).  But, back to my original observation: Young working people in Kansas should not be forced to pay for elderly retired folks in Oregon.

146 I've been really busy, haven't been paying much attention.  Did one of the candidates say that social security was a ponzi scheme and got slammed for it? 

147 They didn't call the Korean War the forgotten war for nothing. 34,000 dead in three years. They weren't spit on because no one paid attention.

148 They didn't call the Korean War the forgotten war for nothing. 34,000 dead in three years. They weren't spit on because no one paid attention.

True.  And sad.

149 If we are going to have any kind of government run aid, isn't it most appropriate to dole that aid out to people who worked during their younger years and now are too elderly to continue to work?  

There are two fallacies here:

1. Many people who receive SS are perfectly capable of doing productive work. Just reaching the age of 65 doesn't automatically unfit you for the workforce. If you're rich enough to live off your own wealth, then go ahead and retire -- I don't see why your age alone should determine when you can and cannot work. Historically, people worked for their entire lives except for a brief caesura at the end. That's the human condition, not some terrible hardship.

2. SS goes to *everyone* who's eligible, not just the poverty-stricken. Warren Buffett still gets his check every month. Americans over the age of 60 constitute one of the wealthiest demographics in the entire world.

It'd be nice if we could all go to college until we're 30, work until 60 or so, and then take another 30 years off until we keel over. But it turns out that you can't keep civilization on a paying basis when people only work for 30% of their lives.

150 What's all this then about a birthday, Y-Not?  Many happy returns!!

151 @147
Yeah, I understand that position, but it is so remote a possibility that I simply don't consider it an option.

@149
Yeah, that's kind of what I mean.  Vietnam vets were treated like shit, no doubt about it. My parents used to march us out of Mass on Sundays when the liberal priests would go on their anti-Vietnam war tirades.  But it's been long enough that I think we should let it go.  It's starting to feel like I'm apologizing for what their generation did to them, frankly, 'cause let's face it, it was basically their generation and the one minus say 10 years who treated them like shit. Not mine.  Not my parents'.  So it's just starting to smack of apologizing to the Indians for stealing their land type of thing. 

152 Y-not what do you mean Houston has bad zoning? We don't allow our strip clubs next to churches or schools. That's practically draconian.

153 Posted by: Monty at August 30, 2011 10:45 AM (/0a60)

You know, this discussion reminds me of another thing on our morning show today- a PEW Research poll that shows that "American Muslims feel more isolated, but are happy with how the country is going."

I haven't seen it myself, but based on what was said on the radio, I'm getting this vibe: "Well, it's fine for me, but I'm hearing all these stories..."

It's the same with SS.  I don't know anyone between the ages of 65 and 70 who is unable to work.  None.  And I know a lot of people that old (I always got along better with people much older than me, for some reason).  If you ask them about retirement/social security, they'll allow as how they don't need it, but they're sure there are just tons of people out there who do.

Now, I'm willing to stipulate that, after 70+ years of the Ponzi scheme, there are those who really have become dependent upon Social Security.  I'm also pretty sure, however, that it's a much smaller percentage that we're being asked to believe.

154 Posted by: Monty at August 30, 2011 10:45 AM (/0a60)

Oh, I agree, but I'm for means-testing. 

I think as a first step during this crisis we should means-test the payouts, but provide a lump sum payout to the heirs of anyone who doesn't pass the means test upon their death - to the sum of what they pay in. 

155 51 The only way in which the Obama administration could destroy the economy more completely is if they sent out fleets of B-52s to carpet bomb all the cities and suburbs. Literally. Posted by: Tsar Nicholas II at August 30, 2011 09:46 AM

Who told you my secret plan! That would be a fantastic way to stimulate the economy, look at Germany under the Marshall Plan. New York and Washington would be spared of course, we're indispensable

156 Socialism is an odd duck.  Everyone, even conservatives I think, can see the attractiveness of it.  Conservatives can also feel the pull of it; the psychological compulsion to try to make it work.  The difference between people on the right and people on the left though is that to a lefty, the thing that they put their faith in that informs them that socialism, with finally the right implementation, will work, is the same thing that informs a righty that it won't work.  And that thing is human nature.  To a lefty, humans, with only the reward of a heightened plain of humanity, can be compelled to sacrifice together for the benefit of the collective, ignoring individual self interest.  Righties know that's bullshit.  Plus, righties have a real problem ignoring history. 

157 Vietnam vets as if they paid a greater price than other vets.

Why begrudge any veteran their due respect as if doing so would malign another vet? It's agreed that every generation representing our American Military is for us "the greatest".

However, most sent to Vietnam were drafted, no choice, not "all volunteer". That's a big difference from the comparative onset. And unlike previous wars including the domino preceding in Korea, Vietnam was fully the Kennedy/LBJ decision with absolutely no UN determination that led our forces in Korea. What our troops were subjugated to in Vietnam by our Congress, the Military Brass, and the hippies at home protesting against our returning military personnel as baby-killers and unacceptable Americans had no precedence.

It would be disappointing that a Vietnam veteran would face antagonism again today just for being a Vietnam Vet.

That said, the VFW elected officials are now nearly all Vietnam Veterans. And their aborting American traditions for their own power to propagandize in favor of the socialist DNC is disgusting to witness. But then, pointing the blame on the Vietnam generation for asserting deplorable miseries voted into government policy by Kerry and McCain against American First Principles would overlook the GHWBush "greatest generation" paving the way instituting what he called the New World Order.

Rather than being perpetually re-deployed as our volunteer troops and National Guard are now, my parents of "the greatest generation" only had to fight the duration of WWII with a clear end given 4 years. Bravo! I love them dearly. And the reward from the proud and grateful American voters and Congress enabling returning veterans to attend university was well deserved.

Yet it is that greatest generation who have burdened the rest of us with the costs from liberal spending by both major parties governing. It is they who enjoyed and depleted the full fruits that American socialist promises provided; Social Security, Welfare in all its variety, Medicaid/Medicare, and every other bankrupting socialist bureaucracy leaving their own children not only high and dry, but their grandchildren without a valuable Dollar.

158

They didn't call the Korean War the forgotten war for nothing. 34,000 dead in three years. They weren't spit on because no one paid attention.

True.  And sad.

A few years ago I was in DC for a business trip and was out walking the Mall after an evening meeting.  I had completely forgotten that the Korean War memorial was now open and I more or less walked right into it.  It was dark and foggy and, seriously, it was utterly eerie.  Once I realized what it was, I cried until I thought I was going to collapse.  It was incredibly moving. 

159 @154
lol. 
I loved Houston, btw.  I actually had a dream last night that we moved back there.  My main concern was that my collie would have problems with the heat. 

160 blink, tami

161

>>>Oh, I agree, but I'm for means-testing. I think as a first step during this crisis we should means-test the payouts, but provide a lump sum payout to the heirs of anyone who doesn't pass the means test upon their death - to the sum of what they pay in.

Yeah, but then it simply becomes another distribution of wealth program, doesn't it?

The people who pay into it and are prudent savers are just funding one of two groups, people who are legitimately poor and couldn't afford to save for retirement or spendthrifts who didn't save for retirement.

And the latter group is becoming larger and larger.

I've always wondered why people can't sue to leave SS since there are county's that have successfully done just that

162 Geez, over the weekend on the radio in the car some guy said people were buying houses again.  He said eventually you have a couple of kids and the house gets too small and you need the space so you finally say that you can't wait anymore for the prices and you just buy.  the guy made it sound like things were getting way better in the housing market.  link

Of all the sites I read, this is the only site where people (like 6 or so) have bought homes.  I'm reading about people saving for the down payment and people, at the least minute, having the bank renege on the mortgage.  How did you guys do it, how did you buy houses?

163 Everyone, even conservatives I think, can see the attractiveness of it.

I can't.  Maybe it's because I've got more cynicism in my big toe than most people do their entire beings, but the very first time someone told me about the "Socialist Ideal" my mind immediately said: "Wait, you want me to work myself to the bone, and other people get to benefit from it?  F that."

164

Socialism is an odd duck.  Everyone, even conservatives I think, can see the attractiveness of it. 

I have a very simple response to this.  Ever work on a group project?  Ever have to do all the work yourself because no one else would do it and then everyone got the A that you earned even though they did nothing?  Remember what that was like?  Yeah.  Now apply that to everything and see how far that gets you. 

165 Oh, I agree, but I'm for means-testing.

You know why the Democrats hate that iea? Because it would expose the lie behind Social Security: that it's some pension fund that you "paid into". It's not, and it never was. If we means-test the recipients, that means accepting the truth that it is just another welfare program like any other.

166 My parents reared me, clothed me, and fed my brothers and me for 18 years.  I don't think it's too much of a stretch for us to do the same for them if they need assistance when they're too old to care for themselves.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 10:27 AM (8y9MW)

Yeah, people say we have an obligation to care for our elderly. Well, I certainly agree I have an obligation to care for 4 particular people, along with my wife, as they get elderly in the next few decades. It'll be quite a stretch for me to go much beyond that, and I'm not inclined to see the obligation.

Not all of us have kids to take care of us in our dotage, incidentally. And, based on the number of adult kids living with their parents, I'm not sure that system is going to work either. 

If someone doesn't have children they've raised right, or nieces and nephews who they matter to, or younger siblings they are close to, or church or civic organizations they've contributed to, or close friends who care about them, and still hasn't managed to save for retirement--I don't know. But my bank of sympathy to draw from is starting a bit low there. They better have some hard luck somewhere.

167 166

Socialism is an odd duck.  Everyone, even conservatives I think, can see the attractiveness of it. 

I have a very simple response to this.  Ever work on a group project?  Ever have to do all the work yourself because no one else would do it and then everyone got the A that you earned even though they did nothing?  Remember what that was like?  Yeah.  Now apply that to everything and see how far that gets you. 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 30, 2011 10:56 AM (VtjlW)

We have a winner!

168 Like they knew that a strong nuclear family promotes independence and self-reliance.

And this is why you can't actually be socially liberal and fiscally conservative.  The liberal social stuff always has a price tag.  Always.

169 Ever work on a group project?  Ever have to do all the work yourself because no one else would do it and then everyone got the A that you earned even though they did nothing?  Remember what that was like?

That was awesome.

170 Now apply that to everything and see how far that gets you. 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 30, 2011 10:56 AM (VtjlW)

Yeah.  That was my point.  You just used fewer words.  ; )

171 So you tell me -- if Social Security is not an "entitlement", then what is it?

a Scam

172 @163
I probably don't have the brainpower (well, I definitely don't) to get into this seriously today, but there are all sorts of ways that wealth is redistributed.  I don't have kids, but I pay for schools which saves parents the cost of educating their kids privately.  I subsidize, indirectly, their kids expenses via the exemptions they get on their taxes.  You may be subsidizing my house purchase through my mortgage deduction.  That sort of thing.

I don't have a problem with (or let's just say I accept) the inherent unfairness of tax collection for and distribution of government programs.  It's part of living in a society.  There's no point in begrudging every dime that I spend that I don't directly benefit from. 

Insurance is the same way.  We never make claims.  Some day we will, but for now we are shouldering the load of people who feel they have to run to the doctor for every ailment and have every friggin' test run they can have run.  Just the other day I met some old dude who was saying he had his doc run a testosterone level test because he was concerned he was letting his wife hen-peck him... and because "the government was paying for it."  I think he was a vet, actually, although he may have been referring to Medicare.  Anyway, his level was fine. 

173 It's UNPOSSIBLE for a recession to start now. NBER has decreed that no recession can sully Teh SCOAMF.

174 My parents reared me, clothed me, and fed my brothers and me for 18 years. I don't think it's too much of a stretch for us to do the same for them if they need assistance when they're too old to care for themselves. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 30, 2011 10:27 AM (8y9MW) Not everyone feels that way, though. That is why Social Security is Stuff White People Like.

175 I think that SS should be converted to a facsimile of a 401k plan whereas payroll deductions as they are now would be 100% of the employees contribution into the plan and 50%of the employers contribution into the plan . The other 50% would be for SSDI which would have to be reformed. Workers that did not earn enough in the private plan by the te they reached retirement could be eligible for a supplement.

176 176 It's UNPOSSIBLE for a recession to start now. NBER has decreed that no recession can sully Teh SCOAMF.

I dunno.  The NBER was still pretty conservative when my husband was working there (90s).  Has it changed that much? 

177 >>Y-not what do you mean Houston has bad zoning? We don't allow our strip clubs next to churches or schools. That's practically draconian. I worked in Tampa for a while. They apparently have no such concerns.

178 Noel Coward put it best: There are bad times just around the corner (new window)

179

based on the number of adult kids living with their parents, I'm not sure that system is going to work either. 

Oh, I missed that. Honestly I really worry about my 30+ year old friends living at home, one unemployed. Dunno what's going to happen there when their folks get too old to work. Hopefully they have homes paid off, but I don't really want to push it, I have few enough people to hang out with (though the same couldn't be said for them for some reason).

180 Y-not what do you mean Houston has bad zoning? We don't allow our strip clubs next to churches or schools. That's practically draconian.
Posted by: polynikes

Houston has crappy zoning laws. I've actually seen a high-rise condominium built in a residential neighborhood between two houses. (It's on Gessner, near Memorial.) I'm betting the value of those homes plummeted almost immediately.

181 Posted by: alexthechick at August 30, 2011 10:56 AM (VtjlW)

Yep. But the promises of getting something for nothing attracts a crowd of suckers. And there's nothing more appealing than that for politicians.

182

What we're getting into is why exactly a republic can only be kept by a virtuous people who are taught to not envy or steal; to respect their elders and so on. Otherwise socialism or redistribution is inevitiable.

183

Myth: Most Vietnam veterans were drafted.

2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. [Westmoreland]

Approximately 70% of those killed were volunteers.[McCaffrey]  Many men volunteered for the draft so even some of the draftees were actually volunteers.

In fairness, a good many "volunteers" of the era did so to try to have more influence or control about where or how they might serve.

184

the guy made it sound like things were getting way better in the housing market.

As the Obamunist and his fellow Commiecrats continue to re-enact stagflationary policies of the 1970's, one can't help but think real estate will turn around, as it is a hard asset? (of course, timing is everything, as the bubble may still be deflating, and this varies so much by location.)

185 If I recall correctly only up to 10% of the military at the time served in Vietnam.

186 I dunno. The NBER was still pretty conservative when my husband was working there (90s). Has it changed that much?

Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 11:04 AM (5H6zj)

Let's review the 2000-2001 timeline and the 2007-2008 timeline.  The NBER decided, despite a weaker economy in mid-2000 than at the end of 2007, S(l)ick Willie couldn't possibly be sullied with the "r" word.

My only surprise is NBER didn't declare the "2007"-2008 recession over at noon Eastern Standard Time January 20, 2009.

187 Posted by: Fish the Impaler at August 30, 2011 11:01 AM (Lt/Za)

And I don't doubt that. After WWII, it isn't as if those who waited to be drafted made an issue of having not volunteered after the celebrations of victory and return to civies.

Of the young men I knew growing up who went to Vietnam, some volunteered during the LBJ administration. Some were drafted. And sadly, I attended each of their military funerals. By the time Nixon was elected, I would expect to find that the volunteerism was falling off those comparative stats with draftees. Everyone at school talked in hushed voices about who just got drafted. That was in Goldwater country.

188 In fairness, a good many "volunteers" of the era did so to try to have more influence or control about where or how they might serve.

I remember that. And it was as likely of each era.

189 In fairness, a good many "volunteers" of the era did so to try to have more influence or control about where or how they might serve.

I'll help validate that theory on behalf of myself and 3/4 of the rest of the guys I was with on the aircraft carrier.
My draft notice arrived about a week after I'd enlisted in the Navy -- I knew it was coming.

190

And I don't doubt that. After WWII, it isn't as if those who waited to be drafted made an issue of having not volunteered after the celebrations of victory and return to civies.

Indeed, even those who didn't like FDR and his "New Dealers" for domestic reasons were considered suspicious, as my grandparents recalled.

191 As regards the family thing.  Being close to your family is a no no in my age group.  Even my parents aren't close to their families.  Apparently though, the new kids going into college now are so tied to their parents that administrations had to create ceremonies to end move in and make the parents leave, they weren't leaving.  They were constantly texting their offspring and staying around for weeks during freshman year to make sure junior or muffy "got a good start".

192 "The more we try to prop up prices or figure out wild-eyed ideas on how to bail out mortgagees, the longer it will take."

Last time I look at the federal jobs listings, the FDIC was hiring a whole new slew of inspectors to audit banks to make sure they were complying with the CRA. Sick.

193 Posted by: PJ at August 30, 2011 11:49 AM (FlVA

I read something about some BofA deal that the FDIC is putting the brakes on because they "don't understand it".  Yep, that's what the article said.  I was shocked.  Had something to do with the bank of china or something.  I've been really busy so I haven't had time to do any research but I feel as though they have decided that BofA is the next lehman or behr stears and it seems BofA is fighting back.

194 (Though it's true that the people who would see their taxes increased the most are not likely to be the same people who would see their income increased.)

HAHAHAHAHA

But if they were, this would be the most Awesome stimulus ever.  Imagine if I robbed you of $5,000 at gunpoint; then left the $5,000 on your porch... awesome stimulus right?  All of a sudden you have $5,000 you didn't have after I took it from you... so you're better off.

For my next trick, I'm going to use this dixie cup to remove all the water from this bucket; and pour it into the same bucket... until the bucket is empty... or overflowing... I'm not sure how this trick ends to be honest.

195 I think as a first step during this crisis we should means-test the payouts, but provide a lump sum payout to the heirs of anyone who doesn't pass the means test upon their death - to the sum of what they pay in. 

Posted by: Y-not at August 30, 2011 10:50 AM (5H6zj)

This sounds like you believe that everyone is owed back what they paid in.  Incorrect.  You paid a tax, you didn't put the money into a retirement account.  People seem to believe that they pay 15, 25, or 34% federal income tax, when in reality, they pay 30, 40, or 49% federal income tax.  The 15% of your income that is called FICA (including what your employer puts in, which is implicitly deducted from your pay) goes into the same pot as the rest.

196

Why is Anthony Weiner standing next to Angela Merkel?

http://preview.tinyurl.com/4xnmmo4