1 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

2 That's how the Eurozone works.

That's how our congress works as well. Look at that last fiasco on the CR and spending.

And damn that is a sad looking kitteh.

3 From the CA boned link:

the local level, where the likes of San Jose mayor Chuck Reed and Vallejo fire chief Paige Meyer are trying to avert even worse catastrophes and rethink what it means to be a society.

Didn't Vallejo go bankrupt once already?

4

"...homosexuals aren't flogged in public (as far as I know)"

 

And what homosexuals flog in the privacy of their bathroom is their own business!

 

 

5 And it's because of things like this that I'm going to see if I can get my hands on a couple of my grampa's old guns (much cheaper than buying them myself, after all).

We may not be on the way to Mad Max, but things are going to have to get pretty dad-gum ugly before the masses wake up and decide that things being run rationally makes more sense for them that not keep voting themselves largesse from the treasury.

6

What globalization requires, therefore, are smart government policies. Governments should promote high-quality education, to ensure that young people are prepared to face global competition. They should raise productivity by building modern infrastructure and promoting science and technology. And governments should cooperate globally to regulate those parts of the economy – notably finance and the environment – in which problems in one country can spill over to other parts of the world.

 

See!  And if only the Soviet Union has won the Cold War, GOSPLAN would have made sure the world had all these policies!

7 (GOSPLAN was the old Soviet economic central planning ministry, btw - the ones that cranked out all those Smart 5 Year Plans that were going to ensure Soviet economic supermacy by making sure they wisely spent their money on capital investments instead of 10 different brands of toothpaste on the store shelf when all you really need is just one, as my middle school teachers always taught me)

8 I keep seeing articles like this one, and I can't help but thinking "The problems isn't the cost of borrowing, it's the cost of business.  You can offer all the low rate loans you want, but anyone not already in business is going to have a very hard time starting one now.  Thanks, Congress!"

9 The Janus cat.

WTF!?

10 The big question was "can the inevitable collapse be averted?".  Previously I said that if the Republicans took the House the slide could be halted. It they took both it could be revered. Unfortunately it may be time to reevaluate that premise.

That is because the House is still behaving like the Democrats are in charge. They have not halted the deficit spending and now they are not even living within the shitty deal crying Boner made. Every time the commies threaten to shutdown the government Boner and company bend over and say "thank you sir may I have another".

The Dems know Boner will cave at the slightest threat, so they issue one threat after another.

11 Too many people took on too much debt, and it must be cleared in one way or another if a recovery is to take place. You're not doing underwater homeowners (or the real-estate market in general) any favors if you force them to stay in houses they cannot afford.
.............
You are also keeping the price of homes artificially high by keeping people in them.

We need to hit bottom in the housing market before we can see things improve.  This, among other things, is why the bank bailouts were such a bad idea.

12 instead of 10 different brands of toothpaste on the store shelf when all you really need is just one, as my middle school teachers always taught me

That reminds me: in 5th grade, we read some stupid play (I don't even remember the name now) where some kid decides that toothpaste is too expensive: he could make it cheaper than he could buy it.  He then goes on to do so and becomes a millionaire by selling it for just a nickle profit (or something like that).

Now, the point- I was told- was that you don't have to make obscene profits, you can make a modest profit per item and you'll get fabulously wealthy.  Which is true, as far as it goes.

But a much better moral of that story is: when you out price your competition with a product that is just as good, you'll become fabulously wealthy.

13 Everything is better with bacon, butter, tabasco, and napalm

14 can the inevitable collapse be averted?

By definition: no.

Unless the question you really meant was "is the collapse truly inevitable?"

/pedantry

15

"A looming trade-war with China? It's like no one ever read about the Halwye-Smooth Tarrif Act of 1930. Which is not to say that China is blameless; far from it. But they are simply behaving rationally according to their own priorities. We are the authors of our own misery in this case."

- Monty

 Sorry, Monty, but THAT makes no sense whatsoever.  So you're saying that China practicing mercantilism - via currency manipulation, amongst other things - is "rational."  But if WE do the same, it's irrational?  You're not being consistent... recompute, and get back to us.

16 14 Reagan might have talked about rising tides, but didn't King Barack promise to lower the oceans? We're getting exactly what he promised.

Posted by: System of a ShutDown at October 03, 2011 09:16 AM (GwsHe)

Well-played.

17 Posted by: Jean at October 03, 2011 09:19 AM (elbGQ)

you forgot: "Deep-fried," "with cheese," and "on-a-stick."

18 AllenG, then raise your prices, sellout to a multinational, and live like a rock star.

19 AllenG, then raise your prices, sellout to a multinational, and live like a rock star.

Well, yes, that's what follows.  But the getting there will get you rich in the first place.

20 The Dems know Boner will cave at the slightest threat, so they issue one threat after another.

Posted by: Vic at October 03, 2011 09:15 AM (M9Ie6)

Boehner is just sacrificing pieces for board position.  Unfortunately he doesn't realize he's playing poker.

21 The Dems know Boner will cave at the slightest threat, so they issue one threat after another.
Posted by: Vic at October 03, 2011 09:15 AM

True dat.

Even though it would be "bad optics" -- and therefore turn Ed "Poppin' Fresh" Morrissey into a blob of whimpering protoplasm -- it's past time for the so-called "conservatives" in the House to say "Dems may control the Senate, and the stuttering clusterf*** of a miserable failure may be in the White House, but we gots da House, baby!"

I know Boner wouldn't do it, but I think having the House pass a truckload of sensible legislation that would keep the Senate and Osama Obama busy vetoing would be a Good Thing.

If we can't move forward right now, not moving backward is the next best thing.

22 Now, the point- I was told- was that you don't have to make obscene profits, you can make a modest profit per item and you'll get fabulously wealthy. 

This is called a "low margin business", and not many companies can be successful at it. It's a holdover from the Industrial Age mindset that if you can make N units at X profit, you can still profit if you make N * 10 units at X - 5 profit because of the economies of scale.

But economies of scale don't apply everywhere in economics, and low-margin businesses are terribly prone to being killed either by weak demand, overproduction, or even cheaper competitors (as with American toymakers and electronics makers and their Chinese counterparts).

23 GOSPLAN says no more whale meat for you.

24 But if WE do the same, it's irrational?

It's self-defeating. I am not a China booster, and I do not think that China is in all that great a position vis a vis America. Their mercantilist policies are going to hurt them terribly in the coming years; you wait and see. That's why I don't advocate a knee-jerk "tariffs and trade" approach -- time will do that job for us, without opening the Pandora's box that a new tariff regime would unleash.

A trade-war will benefit no one, and is virtual guranteed to turn our stubborn recession into a full-out global Depression.

If you want to punish China for their ways, there is a simple way to do it without resorting to tariffs: don't buy their stuff. Problem solved.

25

A good freind of mine works at B of A. He told me over the weekend that they and other banks are getting ready to sell the forclosed loans to collection agencies. This means that people that already lost their homes will be forced to either work out some sort of payment schedule for a home they no longer have or declare Bankruptcey to get rid of it.

I have a feeling that the smug ones you've seen on TV bragging about their strategic forclosure aren't going to be so smug anymore.

26 This is called a "low margin business", and not many companies can be successful at it. It's a holdover from the Industrial Age mindset that if you can make N units at X profit, you can still profit if you make N * 10 units at X - 5 profit because of the economies of scale.

Monty- it's a play for 12 year olds.  What's the chances of a 12 year old making toothpaste (and the marketing it to millions of people) in the first place?

Reality need not apply.

But, yes, that was kind of my point- they try to torture their own story to make it "about" "responsible profit making" or whatever, when a better point is that a well-run, cash-only (that is: they don't have debt, not they only accept cash), can often outperform their competitors, and can be successful.

In the real world, a) his prices would have been forced to go up as he expanded (making toothpaste for you and the folks on your block might be doable in your kitchen- making millions of tubes a year? not so much) and b) the competition would have responded by lowering their own prices, or attempting to find some other competitive advantage.

27 Defense Secretary Leon Panetta warned on Sunday that Israel is becoming increasingly isolated in the Middle East and said U.S. security commitments should enable it to take “risks for peace.” Panetta, who arrives in Israel on Monday for the first time since becoming Pentagon chief, said he would reaffirm U.S. security commitments to Israel and try to help it improve its increasingly chilly relations with Turkey and Egypt. hey asshole, Israel has already said it is ready to return to the “Peace” Talks with no preconditions. Why are you ragging on Israel. Israel has not changed, Turkey and Egypt have you SOB. And the reason the Palestinians will not come to the table is because obama has already promised them everything they want you dumb bastard. Oh for good measure, go fuck yourself

28 We may not be on the way to Mad Max, but things are going to have to get pretty dad-gum ugly before the masses wake up and decide that things being run rationally makes more sense for them that not keep voting themselves largesse from the treasury.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 03, 2011 09:10 AM (8y9MW)

I'm preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. I have leather chaps and weapons. I don't think a mohawk is the right look for me but there are a few other options.  I probably need to look into armoring the truck...

29 A trade-war will benefit no one, and is virtual guranteed to turn our stubborn recession into a full-out global Depression.

I think we can all agree that an actual war is worse than a trade war, yet we all agree that actual wars must sometimes be fought.

I don't understand why there aren't some trade wars that must be fought.

30 I saw this over at HA Headlines (nope I'm not linking the original NYSlimes piece) about another greenie project going belly up. This one has $75 million in gubmint backed loans and $66 million in outright grants.
 
Fresh boning, right from the Hairy Reid School of Boning.

31 at at the folsom street fair homosexuals" flog" themselves

32 We are all Abomination Kitteh now.

33 He told me over the weekend that they and other banks are getting ready to sell the forclosed loans to collection agencies. This means that people that already lost their homes will be forced to either work out some sort of payment schedule for a home they no longer have or declare Bankruptcey to get rid of it.

Ummm... I don't think they get to do that.  Unless you mean loans in the foreclosure process.

But if my home has already been foreclosed, then the bank has already seized their collateral- the "security" behind the secured loan- and we should be quits, legally.

Even if it's still in the process, I think they'll find lawyers salivating at the chance to sue for violation of contract (plus emotional distress, plus..., well, you get the idea).  The foreclosure process is a very specific one that they have to follow.  The point of a mortgage being against the home is that it is then a secured loan- they can just seize the property (or, at least, all of your other assets) to get as much of their money as they can.

Even in Texas, at least back in the 80s, if the bank foreclosed on your home, they couldn't take your home, but they could (and often did) take all of your stuff.

34

32Panetta, who arrives in Israel on Monday for the first time since becoming Pentagon chief, said he would reaffirm U.S. security commitments to Israel and try to help it improve its increasingly chilly relations with Turkey and Egypt.

---

Yes because when those two countries become increasingly theocratic and violent, its Israels duty to compromise.

35 For an investment firm, Pimco sure seems to employ a lot of Communists.

36 Yes because when those two countries become increasingly theocratic and violent, its Israels duty to compromise.

Does anyone else get the sense that democrats only use the word "compromise" in its classic sense?  Note that you never hear them say, "We're willing to compromise," they always say, "X needs to be willing to compromise."

37

But if my home has already been foreclosed, then the bank has already seized their collateral- the "security" behind the secured loan- and we should be quits, legally.

There are a few states (very few) that have a law similar to what you are saying. That is that the bank loaned money based on the value of the assett rather than your ability to repay the loan. I think either Arizona or Nevada is that way. It's basically a non recourse loan.

Most states though like Washington state that you are responsible for the loan, regardless of what  the house sells for at forclosure.

If you lose your house here you stll are responsible for any difference between what you owed and what the bank got from the forclosure sale.

38 AllenG - are you sure other assets are seizable?  The whole point of a "secured" loan is that the bank owns the  asset used as security - the home. I know of no mortgage agreement that puts other assetsas collateral to the loan.

39 Good morning Doomorons.  That cat bothers me.  Most do.

40 Ummm... I don't think they get to do that.  Unless you mean loans in the foreclosure process. Yes, they do. See: Deficiency judgment. If the proceeds from the auction of the foreclosed property are not sufficient to pay off the balance of the note, then you can pursue the unpaid portion through collections and/or judgment enforcement. It depends on the jurisdiction. Generally, states in which the lender holds the title don't allow it, and states in which the lender is only a lien holder do.

41 If you lose your house here you stll are responsible for any difference between what you owed and what the bank got from the forclosure sale.

In many states, if you do a "short sale", you are still legally responsible for the difference between what the house sold for and what you owe on the note. (This is called a "deficiency".) It may work the same way on foreclosures in some areas. (Though the bank may not choose to pursue the deficiency, and I think a bankruptcy would negate the deficiency as well.)

42 If you lose your house here you stll are responsible for any difference between what you owed and what the bank got from the forclosure sale.

Well that sucks.  Is the same true if your car gets repoed?

The fundamental understanding of secured v non-secured loans is that, with secured loans, the lender gets to take your collateral if you don't pay- but that's it (they're only guaranteed the amount of the security), so they'd better be darn sure they're lending on something worth as much (or more) than the money they're lending.  Unsecured loans, they might get nothing, but they also have the recourse of sending the loan to collections (basically, selling the loan as though it were secured, and letting a collector worry about it).

I remember responsible bankers (that is, mostly local and state-wide banks) in Texas throwing a fit over the national banks getting Texas to change its laws in the 90's so that you take out home-equity loans in Texas (and a plethora of other changes) which basically required them also massively modifying the Texas Homestead rules.  They were warning then (and have been proven right) that it was going to lead to increased foreclosures and indebtedness.

43 43

But if my home has already been foreclosed, then the bank has already seized their collateral- the "security" behind the secured loan- and we should be quits, legally.

There are a few states (very few) that have a law similar to what you are saying. That is that the bank loaned money based on the value of the assett rather than your ability to repay the loan. I think either Arizona or Nevada is that way. It's basically a non recourse loan.

Most states though like Washington state that you are responsible for the loan, regardless of what the house sells for at forclosure.

If you lose your house here you stll are responsible for any difference between what you owed and what the bank got from the forclosure sale.

---

Well in Ohio, if the house is foreclosed, it must sell at auction for 2/3rds of the appraised value. The balance (if any) is still owed. Its right in the mortgage contract.

44 You're not doing underwater homeowners (or the real-estate market in general) any favors if you force them to stay in houses they cannot afford.

In fact in a capitalistic economy now is supposed to be the time when those that planned accordingly should be getting good deals on property.  Every time there is a bailout of underwater homeowners, it just pushes the recovery further away. 

45 Most states require that the home asset is the only collateral for the loan and no other deficiency judgment unless you personally guaranteed the loan.

46 In many states, if you do a "short sale", you are still legally responsible for the difference between what the house sold for and what you owe on the note. (This is called a "deficiency".) It may work the same way on foreclosures in some areas. (Though the bank may not choose to pursue the deficiency, and I think a bankruptcy would negate the deficiency as well.)

Posted by: Monty at October 03, 2011 09:44 AM (/0a60)

Yeah that's what I said, they will either have to pay it or go BK. The thing about a bunch of these loans is that the homeowner could in fact afford to pay but chose to because they were underwater. In that case the sale of their assets from the bankruptcy will go to their creditors. Their old mortgage holder being one.

47 38 We are all Abomination Kitteh now. Posted by: Empire of Jeff at October 03, 2011 09:34 AM (XE2Oo) Speak for yourself.

48 But if my home has already been foreclosed, then the bank has already seized their collateral- the "security" behind the secured loan- and we should be quits, legally.

Home foreclosure laws vary from State to State but most States you are responsible for money owed regardless of what the bank gets in a foreclosure. IOW, if you borrow $100K for a home and a bank is only able to sell it for $75K you will still owe the bank $25K plus expenses (mainly lawyer fees).

That being said, in most cases the bank rarely goes after this outstanding amount, other than sometimes turning it over to a debt collector for pennies on the dollar. Most of the time they just write it off as bad debt. The cost of collection vs the odds of getting a nickle make it unprofitable to go after this money.

Some States do have some consumer "protections". For example here in SC an individual who is foreclosed on can regain their home for up to one year after foreclosure if they repay ALL the owed payments, plus penalties, and the fees associated with the foreclosure. This is pretty steep so you would rarely expect to see it.  But it does make it harder for the bank to turnover the property.

49 AllenG - are you sure other assets are seizable?  The whole point of a "secured" loan is that the bank owns the  asset used as security - the home. I know of no mortgage agreement that puts other assetsas collateral to the loan.

It used to be the law in Texas- since you couldn't actually seize the home or property (because of our Homestead law), you could seize all their stuff, instead.  Basically banks could force people to declare bankruptcy and sell their non-home assets.

It didn't come up very much, because State lending standards were also much higher.

50 Damn looks like a bunch of responses there.

51  Most states require that the home asset is the only collateral for the loan and no other deficiency judgment unless you personally guaranteed the loan.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at October 03, 2011 09:47 AM (jiVmv)

I think you have that backwards, most states are the opposite and when you sign the loan you are signing personally. I've bought homes in 3 states and all 3 of them were that way.

52 Looks like 50 states, 50 laws.  In the3 states that I have done financing in, all were collateral only mortgages.

53 Looks like 50 57 states, 50 57 laws.

FIFY.

54 The VF Cali article is a good one, Monty. In other Cali news today, I find that Gov Moonbeam has codified the sacrifice of living foreskins.

55 23 Posted by: Dyslexic God Emperor of Dune at October 03, 2011 09:21 AM (bZ8J6)
_______

Huh?

56 Well that sucks.  Is the same true if your car gets repoed? All. The. Time. It's most common with used cars, in which the recovered value through repossession and auction is nowhere near enough to satisfy the balance owing. But try to explain that to Jimmy-Bob, who doesn't understand why the $500 received at auction when his '87 Firebird was sold didn't cover the $1,500 owing on his 15% interest used car loan. Or the $500 due to the repo/towing company. Or the court filing fees, or the storage fees the towing company charged to keep the vehicle impounded until auction. Now, try to explain to Jimmy-Bob that not only was his shitbox repoed and auctioned off, he now owes MORE than when he still had possession of the fucking thing. I'll be over here, shaking my head.

57 The thing about a bunch of these loans is that the homeowner could in fact afford to pay but chose to because they were underwater.

Yeah- those are the jerks who really suck.  And you just want to shake them by the collar and yell, "Hey [insert expletive here]! If you and people like you would just wait it out- and quit asking for handouts- the market would bottom out and then starting coming back.  You probably wouldn't be underwater for too long, then, [insert other expletive here]!"

58

That cat is utterly freaky, even by cat standards.

I would be thrilled with 5% returns right now.  Eight percent is magic unicorn land.

It may be painful, but we must clear the enormous debt-overhang in the real estate sector. Too many people took on too much debt, and it must be cleared in one way or another if a recovery is to take place. You're not doing underwater homeowners (or the real-estate market in general) any favors if you force them to stay in houses they cannot afford.

Yup.  We've hashed this out before, but something has to be done to clear the books.  The question is do we yank off the bandage or try to ease it off in order to stop an utter collapse.

As far as BoA and others selling off to collections agencies, that's only going to work for those situations in which a deficit judgment was taken out on the homeowner.  Not all jurisdictions permit such judgments.  This also presumes that the financial institutions will handle the assignment of such judgments properly.  Given prior history on assignments, I'm highly doubtful that will occur.  Expect another massive wave of litigation when the collection attempts start.

 

 

59 Just to let you all know - I'm back and hungry for some serious SCOAMF hate. Been missing it all last week. Being a person of natural light and love I require your collective hate to balance me. To all - you complete me. Just sayin.

60

Good DOOMy morning, all.  Does our dear SCOAMFOTUS have any speaking engagements scheduled for today?  I just assume so, what with the Asian markets tanking this morning and Europe looking like even more of a mess than before.  Anyway, I sure hope he does.  It has been the morning from HELL at work today, and I'm in the mood for some particularly cutting, scathing and sarcastic remarks directed towards Jug Ears McHoolihan.  It takes the edge off my desire to brain someone with a fax machine.

61 Now, try to explain to Jimmy-Bob that not only was his shitbox repoed and auctioned off, he now owes MORE than when he still had possession of the fucking thing.

Two words.  "Cash," and "Carry."

I don't know that I'll be able to avoid all additional debt from here on out, but I've been working to clear what debt I do have since last year, and I should have the first of my two cars paid off at the end of this year.  After that: a student loan, another car, and then my mortgage.

62 Saw this somewhere:
"Give a liberal a fish, and he'll ask for seconds.
Teach a liberal to fish, and he'll file for unemployment."

Kinda perfectly captures the modern left. They want someone else to feed them, they are perfectly capable of feeding themselves, and if you don't feed them, they'll shove the gun of government in your face and take it anyway.

63 Are there lawyers about?

64 57 I think you have that backwards, most states are the opposite and when you sign the loan you are signing personally. I've bought homes in 3 states and all 3 of them were that way.
___________

An article I read over the weekend (I forget where) said that 41 states allow mortgage holders to sue if sale of the house is insufficient. It also said they usually don't, but things are changing.

65

What globalization requires, therefore, are smart government policies. Governments should promote high-quality education, to ensure that young people are prepared to face global competition.

 

Smart government policies is just the same nonsense from the socialism/communism just hasn't been done right yet crowd

66 69 Are there lawyers about? Posted by: Aahz at October 03, 2011 09:59 AM (ieDPL) Always. (More specifically, I think alexthechick is a lawyer.)

67 Anyone know anything about domesticating a small claims judgement across state lines and whether it is likely anyone would try?

68 It also said they usually don't, but things are changing.

As they would have to, what with "strategic default" and all.  If everyone who is underwater on their mortgage just decided, "Nope, I owe more than it's worth, I'm just going to stop paying," and the banks just took it, they'd all collapse before the end of next year.

I just thought they were stuck-out anyway, but if most States will let them go after the difference, I'm actually all for that.

69 China can do lots of things that we might not like but are just par for the course in international economic competition (e.g. currency manipulation which every country is engagin in right now). But we should not tolerate at all the theft of our technology. Any Chinese company that steals US technology should be prohibited from selling their products in the US (and we should pressure Europe to do likewise). Furthermore, any US company that enters a joint venture in China that requires transfer of technology should be prohibited from selling those products back into the US. You would think these companies would be smart enough to realize that they're just being ripped off, but then, well...just look at Jeff Immelt.

70 Now, try to explain to Jimmy-Bob that not only was his shitbox repoed and auctioned off, he now owes MORE than when he still had possession of the fucking thing.

It kills me how many people don't understand this. If you borrow $2000 to buy a used car, there is no real connection between the loan and the car -- you borrowed the money; transaction 1. You used the money you borrowed to buy the car; transaction 2. The fact that the acceptance company and the used car company happened to occupy the same office has no real legal significance. You owe the finance company $2000 regardless of what the car is worth at any given time.

But lots of people think that once the repo guy takes the car, or the bank forecloses on the house, the debt is magically wiped away. That's not how it works. That's like saying that you shouldn't have to pay your credit-card company for the $200 DVD player you bought because you broke it already.

71

An article I read over the weekend (I forget where) said that 41 states allow mortgage holders to sue if sale of the house is insufficient. It also said they usually don't, but things are changing.

Posted by: Anachronda at October 03, 2011 09:59 AM (6fER6)

What my freind at B of A told me is they are not suing, they are selling the mortgages to collection agencies turning them lose to put the former homeowner throught their special kind of hell.

72 26 ...I know Boner wouldn't do it, but I think having the House pass a truckload of sensible legislation that would keep the Senate and Osama Obama busy vetoing would be a Good Thing.

They have passed such legislation. All Reid does is table it.

73 I didn't realize it varied that much from state to state.. here's a list of recourse and non-recourse loan states:

http://tinyurl.com/4e4cqdv

74 Posted by: Aahz at October 03, 2011 10:01 AM (ieDPL)

I'm not even sure what that means, but I think that judgements are always feral- you'll never domesticate one, but you might be able to train it.

...
...
...
What?  Why are you looking at me like that?

75 I'm not even sure what that means, but I think that judgements are always feral- you'll never domesticate one, but you might be able to train it. ... ... ... What? Why are you looking at me like that? Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 03, 2011 10:04 SNARLLLLLL! SNAP! SNARLLLLL!

76 That's like saying that you shouldn't have to pay your credit-card company for the $200 DVD player you bought because you broke it already.

Except that the car loan (or the mortgage) is being represented as a secured loan- that is, that the company is buying the [whatever] and you're paying them back until you've bought it.

Whether or not that's how it actually works (I know it isn't), that's how it is represented.  And on purpose.  Otherwise auto manufacturers wouldn't have their own financing companies.

77 What happens if a bank sells the house for more money then is owed?

78 I listen to Dave Ramsey fairly regularly and I hear the horror stories from callers to his show about the debt collector hell they go through.  I wonder, is there such a thing as a compassionate debt collector?  In essence, Dave Ramsey himself is a debt collector, because he teaches people how to get out of debt, but he doesn't yell or threaten people like so many of these scummy debt collectors do.  I wonder if there is something similar that could be used for the debt collections business.

79 What happens if a bank sells the house for more money then is owed?

In that highly unlikely event, they'd get to keep it.  I would think, anyway.

But if your house is worth more than you owe, you'll normally just sell it, rather than letting it be foreclosed.

80

(More specifically, I think alexthechick is a lawyer.)

Annnd now the fun ethicsy type stuff - I have a JD, am not currently in practice in the manner that most people think of as "being a lawyer" though I am sadly still in the field.  Not licensed in your jurisdiction, any advice given is general only and should not be relied upon to make major life choices and/or legal decisions (unless we are talking about stompy boots in which case I'm your chick), not your lawyer, won't be your lawyer, your mileage may vary, professional driver, closed course, call your doctor, etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum. 

81 I didn't realize it varied that much from state to state.. here's a list of recourse and non-recourse loan states:

http://tinyurl.com/4e4cqdv

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at October 03, 2011 10:02 AM (UTq/I)

That list is wrong, Washington is a recourse state. In Washington the loan company is allowed to have a seperate signing page stating that you personally gaurantee the loan. All of them do it or they don't make the loan.

Lenders can make a non recourse loan here but that is usually only done on commercial loans.

82 If you want to punish China for their ways, there is a simple way to do it without resorting to tariffs: don't buy their stuff. Problem solved.

Posted by: Monty at October 03, 2011 09:29 AM (/0a60)

 

Thay may not be such a bad idea.  I wonder if al the money we have saved since Nixon went to China by buying their cheap crap won't be spent later, with interest, on defense spending to control the monster we have created.  I also wonder how much of our current economic difficulties aren't, at the end of the day, related to the fact we have allowed utterly one-sided traded hollow out our economy even as we indugled in runaway deficit spending to create the illusion of propserity even as our actual economic base was not-so-slowly eroded.

As you always say, Monty: eventually, reality always stares you in the face.

83 Anyone got anything for 73?

84 I wonder if there is something similar that could be used for the debt collections business.

No.  They surgically remove your soul when you become a debt collector.

More honestly- there are plenty of specific collectors (the guys and gals on the phone) who honestly feel bad about their jobs (they don't normally last long), but the company is designed to get the maximum amount of money from you, no matter the situation.  They specifically train their employees in psychological tricks that will get you to cough up more money than you otherwise would.

And the math says that's the way to do it.  For every person who would give more if you were nice to them, there are probably 10 who would tell you to go take a hike.

That's why you should carry as little debt as possible- preferably 0.

85 In that highly unlikely event, they'd get to keep it.  I would think, anyway.

But if your house is worth more than you owe, you'll normally just sell it, rather than letting it be foreclosed.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 03, 2011 10:07 AM (8y9MW)

Any proceeds of a forclosure sale over the amount owed and expenses  goes to the homeowner.

86 Oh boy, I deserve a slap for my syntax on that last question... that's what happens when you try to think about two things at once.

87 Looks like the drooling incoherence of the "Days of Ragey Occupation" "protest" will be spreading to Canada, for some unfathomable reason. 

88 92 Oh boy, I deserve a slap for my syntax on that last question... that's what happens when you try to think about two things at once.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 03, 2011 10:11 AM (Iaxlk)

You mean three things at once - because you're always thinking about boobies

89 Anyone know anything about domesticating a small claims judgement across state lines and whether it is likely anyone would try?

Not a lawyer either, but the likely trying would be usually based on the amount and what a collection agency bought the judgment for.  Its unlikely that anyone will travel across 3 states for $500.  Higher amounts will vary.  Always know your statute of limitations, yes, debt has these for collection.

90 Good luck on the debt AllenG, thought I was ahead - then the IRS popped up saying I owe an ed ctra 10k in taxes for 2006, still cant figure it out.

91 America's Enduring Ideal
Jeffrey Sachs is only the latest in a long line of thinkers to reject the values of our commercial republic.

92

You mean three things at once - because you're always thinking about boobies

Posted by: chemjeff at October 03, 2011 10:13 AM (czcue)

That would make FOUR things at once...

93 93 Looks like the drooling incoherence of the "Days of Ragey Occupation" "protest" will be spreading to Canada, for some unfathomable reason. Posted by: Waterhouse at October 03, 2011 10:12 AM (umH4+) Heh. It's October. First night in Montreal and Toronto, hit them with the hose. Game over, eh?

94

Unhappy with their own irrefutable DOOMedness, SCOAMF and NYT team up to scurry along Israel to its own special place in DOOM – here and here.

95 86 Not licensed in your jurisdiction, any advice given is general only and should not be relied upon to make major life choices and/or legal decisions (unless we are talking about stompy boots in which case I'm your chick)...
_________

Hmm. I'm reading as saying that you *are* willing to give specific legal advice in situations involving stompy boots.

96 93 Looks like the drooling incoherence of the "Days of Ragey Occupation" "protest" will be spreading to Canada, for some unfathomable reason. 

Posted by: Waterhouse at October 03, 2011 10:12 AM (umH4+)

What are they going to occupy.  Niagara Falls?

97 93 Looks like the drooling incoherence of the "Days of Ragey Occupation" "protest" will be spreading to Canada, for some unfathomable reason. 

Posted by: Waterhouse at October 03, 2011 10:12 AM (umH4+)

Days of Rage protests need some counter protests - with things that hurt.  We need a balanced approach to these things.  In the spirit of SCOAMF.

98 "...  because even good might not cut it anymore and average is definitely over." Tom Friedman may not be our friend, he is on the wrong side politically, the big dummy, but his stark assessment of how the world "works", and the educational requirements for effective competition in that world are right on the money. We are getting our asses kicked, N-S-E and West, and our political leaders offer us trite, meaningless, biased words (yes, platitudes), but they never venture too near to the details of a solution. We have the "vapors" here, because all we get from our so-called leaders is "vapor". Where's the beef? How can we function, not to mention compete, in an atmosphere where short-term gains are encouraged so highly and long-term thinking and planning is stomped like a bug? Pretty soon now, someone is going to have to explain uncertainty to the public and coax or beat us into making some nasty, hard choices about the future that we face. Being paralyzed by fear is going to get us all killed, figuratively and literally!

99 Can't help you Aahz, don't even know what language you're speaking there.  I'd recommend keeping an eye on Skeeve though, that Klahd is liable to go off and buy another dragon, and the financing on those is a bear...

100 I sure hope the protests don't tie up Canada's critical infrastructure.  It would be a shame if Canada's computer or battle tank were affected.

101 102 What are they going to occupy. Niagara Falls?
_______

The frozen tundra (which, come to think of it, is probably just as redundant as "assless chaps").

102 then the IRS popped up saying I owe an ed ctra 10k in taxes for 2006, still cant figure it out.

Everyone I've spoken to who has gone down this road has had something pop up just as, or just before, they got their last debt (not counting a mortgage) paid off.  An air conditioner dies, a car dies, someone breaks a leg: something.  So they end up back in debt for a little bit.  The difference, of course, is that they have so much less, it's faster to get it paid off.

103 Regarding House Republicans and legislation - Obama Lies about the ‘Do-Nothing Congress’

"In terms of recorded votes, the two bodies are as different as Times Square and the Everglades. Through September 15, the GOP House had voted 711 times. Meanwhile, across the same period, the Democratic Senate had only 137 votes.

This distinction might discredit House Republicans if they wasted their time voting on National Apricot Yogurt Month and similar matters of national urgency. In fact, Republicans have approved serious legislation designed to get America moving."

*Tallies from the House Clerk

104

What my freind at B of A told me is they are not suing, they are selling the mortgages to collection agencies turning them loose to put the former homeowner throught their special kind of hell.

If that's what BoA is doing, BoA is in for a universe of hurt.  I'm reasonably confident that every state has very specific requirements for how the foreclosure process is followed, violation of which can lead to pretty catastrophic consequences for the lender.  Not to mention that the Fair Debt Collection Practice Act does have some teeth.  So.  Yeah.  Just turning it over to a collection agency isn't going to help.

Not to mention, now we're back to the whole robosigning mess.  The willy nilly assignment of the mortgages is what caused a decent sized part of the current situation.

 

105 99 93 Looks like the drooling incoherence of the "Days of Ragey Occupation" "protest" will be spreading to Canada, for some unfathomable reason.
Posted by: Waterhouse at October 03, 2011 10:12 AM (umH4+)

Heh. It's October. First night in Montreal and Toronto, hit them with the hose. Game over, eh?

Posted by: joncelli at October 03, 2011 10:14 AM (RD7QR)

Heh.  The 'rons and 'ronettes have on occasion pondered where the Great Riots that will presage the End of Days will begin.  Detroit?  Chicago?  New York?   My money is currently on Atlanta or Seattle.  But I wonder if we're all wrong, and the riots may actually start north of the border.  They've got some weapon's grade crazy up in the Great White North. 

106 93 Looks like the drooling incoherence of the "Days of Ragey Occupation" "protest" will be spreading to Canada, for some unfathomable reason.

They are dodging the imaginary military industrial complex fascist warmongering state''s draft, seeking out fresh northern herb to blaze, and some Canadian beaver.

I hope they get to experience the civility of the mounties in full force and then a long gloriously painful wait for the Canadian socialized healthcare system to stitch them back up.

107 Three of Gabes tweets.  Where does the DOJ get the money for this? (I know, I know...humor me)

Gabriel Malor
DOJ gives Tulsa, OK police dept $3.5 million to "save or create" 19 jobs.


DOJ gives Hartford, CT police dept $1.9 million to "save or create" 10 jobs.


DOJ gives South Lyon, MI police $936,270 to "save or create" 3 jobs.

108

Not to mention, now we're back to the whole robosigning mess. The willy nilly assignment of the mortgages is what caused a decent sized part of the current situation.

Posted by: alexthechick at October 03, 2011 10:19 AM (VtjlW)

I thought it was the directive to banks to make loans that no sane person would approve, because to not make those loans would be raaaaaaaaaaaacist!

109

83What happens if a bank sells the house for more money then is owed?

---

The court (in Ohio) puts all the auction money in escrow for final disbursment. The leftover money is given to you.

110 Anyone know anything about domesticating a small claims judgement across state lines and whether it is likely anyone would try?

I am not a lawyer and have not played on on TV (but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn express).

But generally speaking no civil action is valid across State lines unless it is a federal action (or some other law allows it ex: child support).

In civil case the adjudicating court will issue a bench warrant and those are only valid in State.

111 I have a little itch that needs scratching.. Having to do with China's "manipulation" of their currency.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that China's rate of production is increasing, and that their rate of printing their currency is decreasing, or remaining the same... Unlike in America, where production is sort of stagnant, but with a so-called "Quantitative Easing" which as near as I can figure, a fancy-pants way of saying, "fire up the presses".. In other words inflating our own currency beyond what we're producing.

Wouldn't that account for the imbalance between the currencies?

And, who then, is "manipulating" their currency?

Keep in mind, those in power - the current administration, have shown a proclivity to blame others for their problems.

112 There was already a decent business for lawyers versed in the FDCPA. Look up Peter Barry in MN. He's a lib, even rubbed shoulders with Rep. Ellison but, a debt collector crosses the line and he'll ass-rape them for you.
One he had, on a debt for some tools, a collector--caught on tape--ask the guy why he is a piece of shit who doesn't pay his bill and asks if he is going to teach his kids to be pieces of shit too. He wasn't yelling, it's that hostility and the fact that profanity is illegal. That company paid out $300k+.
One of the biggest debt collectors has a $500k deductible on their E&O policy.
The business model is simple: Buy a debt for 50 to 10 cents (or less) on the dollar, break the law left and right, some lot will pay, many will be intimidated into paying something, only a few will call a lawyer and they settle as the cost of doing business. But, it is pretty much pure profit.

113 105 Domesticating is the process of moving a judgement to a state where the debtor has assets. Things are unclear online. The Law seems to be all over the place with competing Statutes and Limitations.  Seems petty to me for a dubious small claim.

114 if someone purchases your home at the trustees sale.....the money goes in order of the debt...bank first...and fees to the trustee then to lower lien holders...anything over the debt incurred actually goes to the person foreclosed on...........

115 Oh, about that cat... Kill It!  Kill It With Fire!!!

116

ItÂ’s a good damned thing that the MFM will never pick up on this or SCOAMF and crew would have to have a new word developed to describe the level of DOOM they would be in.

117

If that's what BoA is doing, BoA is in for a universe of hurt.  I'm reasonably confident that every state has very specific requirements for how the foreclosure process is followed, violation of which can lead to pretty catastrophic consequences for the lender.  Not to mention that the Fair Debt Collection Practice Act does have some teeth.  So.  Yeah.  Just turning it over to a collection agency isn't going to help.

Not to mention, now we're back to the whole robosigning mess.  The willy nilly assignment of the mortgages is what caused a decent sized part of the current situation.

 

Posted by: alexthechick at October 03, 2011 10:19 AM (VtjlW)

You misunderstood me. They are selling the mortgages after they have forclosed. The collection agencies will be going after the deficit not doing the forclosure.

118

Heh. It's October. First night in Montreal and Toronto, hit them with the hose. Game over, eh?
Posted by: joncelli at October 03, 2011 10:14 AM (RD7QR)

What would you call the people who did that? "Hosers"?

 

119 Thanks Vic. It is not easy to find answers online to these things.

120 The key to judgment claims and taxes is to have no assets or income, like me.

121

Hmm. I'm reading as saying that you *are* willing to give specific legal advice in situations involving stompy boots.

Well, I'm willing to give specific advice in situations involving stompy boots.  The legality of the advice and/or the usage to which the boots would be subject is more of a, how to put this, oh let's call it alternately moral area. 

But generally speaking no civil action is valid across State lines unless it is a federal action (or some other law allows it ex: child support).

I presume the question is more about the validity of a judgment in one state being transferred to another state for collection purposes.  In that case, yes, judgments can be transferred but it's a bitch and a half to do and generally isn't worth it until you get into five figure amounts.  Again, there are exceptions to that but that's the general rule for civil judgments.

 

122 robtr going after the deficit? the bank 1099's the deficit to the one foreclosed on.....at least they used to.....the debt is erased except the black mark on your credit..and paying taxes on deficiancy as income....if there was a way to collect initially there would not have been a foreclosure.....

123 Thanks Vic. It is not easy to find answers online to these things.

That is not to say that a debt collector will nor cross State lines. But if he does he has zero authority for anything unless he files a separate court action in the State.

Feel free to tell anything out of State debt collector to FO and quit calling or you will file case against him. (if that is what is at issue)

124 Posted by: Jimmuy at October 03, 2011 10:22 AM (ibeMV)

And the lesson, as a consumer: record every conversation you have with a debt collector.  You normally don't even have to say anything, because they'll say, "This call is being recorded or monitored..."  If they don't say that, you may be legally required to inform them.

Also learn the law regarding when they can call (I believe it's not before 8 A and not after 9 P), and make doubly sure you record those calls.

125 I want to Occupy Bourbon Street to protest our lack of access to strippers, beer and impressionable coeds from out of town.

126 How will the title insurance industry ever figure out the robosigning mess?

127 i'm sure there will be scams a plenty going on trying to get people to pay on stuff they no longer own and owe

128

VDH posits that, should the string of bad luck SCOAMF and crew have been experiencing but continue for yet a while longer, we may find ourselves unDOOMed!  We can but hope! via Boker Tov Boulder

129 That's why you should carry as little debt as possible- preferably 0.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 03, 2011 10:10 AM (8y9MW)

That's step one in my two step planning kit.

1. Carry no debt, except a max 15 year fixed rate mortgage.

2. Save 20% of your income.  That is your only rational pension.

130 32  Yep! He should be saying that he has come to town to unsnap the leash and that an Arab Spring Cleaning is closer than people think if they get too feisty there in the neighborhood.

131 robtr

going after the deficit? the bank 1099's the deficit to the one foreclosed on.....at least they used to.....the debt is erased except the black mark on your credit..and paying taxes on deficiancy as income....if there was a way to collect initially there would not have been a foreclosure.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at October 03, 2011 10:29 AM (eOXTH

In Arizona maybe, not here. Here you personally gaurantee the loan. If you borrow $100,000 you owe $100,000 regardless what the house sells for. In Washington the bank can actually choose not to forclose on the house and just sue you personally for the loan amount. If that happens you sell the house yourself but the proceeds go to the bank and you still owe the difference. Or they can forclose, sell the house and sue you for the difference.

132 @117: China has legally tied the price of its currency to the US Dollar... it's currency should actually be worth more dollars per renbinbi than it is, but the Chinese are keeping it artificially cheap.  That makes it harder to Chinese consumers to buy American goods, and easier for us to buy lead-tainted toys and arsinic-laced dog food from them.  The argument is that predatory practices like this destroy our national industries; once they finish destroying US manufacturers, they'll freely float their currency because they will have effectively destroyed their US competition so there is no more reason to continue with articially cheap pricing.

133

You misunderstood me. They are selling the mortgages after they have forclosed. The collection agencies will be going after the deficit not doing the forclosure.

Ahhh, so these are deficit judgments.  I still don't trust BoA to have a.  entered the deficit judgment correctly, presuming a recourse state and b. assigned the judgment correctly.  Sorry, but BoA has proven themselves to  have really unclean hands on this stuff. 

Posted by: phoenixgirl at October 03, 2011 10:29 AM (eOXTH)

Depends on the jurisdiction as to whether or not the lender can go after a deficit judgment.  That has no effect at all on the whole 1099 on the forgiven amount of the loan.  I have only the vaguest understanding of how that works, but from what I can tell, if that amount is actually wiped clean (ie no deficit judgment) then it gets reported as income.  Expect shrieking to get that repealed as more and more people get hit with that tax bill. 

134 Bourbon Street to protest our lack of access to strippers, beer and impressionable coeds from out of town.

Yeah, but if you're able to get to Bourbon Street in the first place, you don't lack that access.

Maybe you should occupy the Strip in Vegas for your protest.

How will the title insurance industry ever figure out the robosigning mess?

My guess?  The legal/financial equivalent of "CTRL+ALT+DEL."
Or, worse, the legal/financial equivalent for "FORMAT C:\"

135 So riddle me this batmorons.  Are the guest bloggers going to post and run, or will they be available for us to abuse like Ace?

136 141 So riddle me this batmorons.  Are the guest bloggers going to post and run, or will they be available for us to abuse like Ace?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at October 03, 2011 10:34 AM (jiVmv)

Monty's been pretty good about grabbing his ankles.

137

As a break from the DOOM, how about a fun thought exercise? 

Could I take down a T-Rex with my Beretta 9MM pistol?

(Link to The Straight Dope, via Five Feet of Fury)

138 robtr wow

139 "Expect shrieking to get that repealed as more and more people get hit with that tax bill." The Mortgage Forgiveness Debt Relief Act of 2007 is in effect through CY 2012, and it covers most foreclosure/short sale situations.

140 Posted by: Vashta Nerada at October 03, 2011 10:31 AM (D5iHx)

Dave Ramsey's plan:

1) Put aside 1000.00 for emergencies.  This should be relatively liquid, but inconvenient to access.
2) Pay off all debt (not including your mortgage), starting with the smallest one first.
3) Put aside 3 - 6 months of expenses into an emergency fund.
4) Pay off mortgage early
5) Save for Kid's college
6) Save 15% of your income for retirement

There's a 7th step, too, but I don't really think about it: he believes that Giving your money to others is good for you (actually, I agree), but I think it's more a meta-step that you should be doing the whole way through, as you're able.  You'll just be better able once you get to step 4 (4, 5, 6 are concurrent steps, after the sequential steps of 1, 2, and 3).

141

I have always snickered when pundits said things like; this is the end of this party or that, but in this case, if this turns out to be the left’s Tea Party, they’re sooo f—king DOOMed!

142 F%$# step 7 with a concrete d!%&@.

143 143 As a break from the DOOM, how about a fun thought exercise? Could I take down a T-Rex with my Beretta 9MM pistol? (Link to The Straight Dope, via Five Feet of Fury) Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at October 03, 2011 10:35 AM (4df7R) Nah. .50 Barrett, bare minimum.

144

@146:

 

Step 7:  Suffer debilitating stroke; check into Old Age Home to be physically and perhaps sexually abused by 25 year old illegal alien psychotic nurse for 3 years before succumbing to massive bedsore infection and expiring. 

145 Gators seem pretty susceptible to shotgun blasts. I expect dinosaur tissue best resembles that.

146 I understand where Ramsey is going with #2 getting rid of a payment, but I disagree.  Pay off the highest interest first.

147

" the bureaucrats will make threatening noises but will hand over the the bailout money anyway "

The $8 Billion to pay the immediate bills, yes.  But to risk half of the German GDP propping up the euro?

Not a chance.  The Germans(Constitutional Court and Senate) have passed the July negotiated arrangements but they are already a joke, utterly inadequate to meet the need.

148 143 THAT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED!!!!!T-REXS ARE EXTICT! I CARE ABOUT THE PLANET MORE THAN YOU DO.....//////// sorry.... channeling an earlier rant......

149 The thing that is really bad about all this shitty real estate market is that it is literally killing people who must move or relocate for their job. 

I have a friend living in Northern CA who would like to move but who is severely underwater due to many foreclosures in their city.

So foreclosures going into effect by themselves will not initially solve the "underwater" problem. It will get worse as those houses hit the market. However, for the market to eventually recover it still has to happen.

150 Have no fear, an article this morning predicts the housing values will return to 2007 levels in the year 2030. No link. And probably wrong anyway since the future doesn't exist.

151 I understand where Ramsey is going with #2 getting rid of a payment, but I disagree.  Pay off the highest interest first.

Well, when you consider that the people normally doing his program are virtually drowning in debt, his "debt snowball" makes a lot of sense.

1) Psychologically it's good: "Wow, I'm making progress!"
2) By tackling the smallest debts first, you free up more money faster to tackle the bigger debts.

Even then, we've modified the plan to fit our own situation.  We've had a couple of windfalls (bonuses, gifts, whatever) that have then allowed us to pay off bigger debts "out of order."  We're getting my van paid off before our other two remaining debts- even though it's the biggest- because we have a final lease payment due in December anyway.  If we can get it completely taken care of in December, then we free up about $1000.00/mo (including what we've been setting aside for that final payment) to pay off our other debts.

The interest rate itself isn't that important when viewed from the perspective of "How am I ever going to pay off all this debt."  I would certainly say, if choosing between two debts that are the same, or nearly so, pick the one with the higher interest rate.

152 New thread up

153

The Mortgage Forgiveness Debt Relief Act of 2007 is in effect through CY 2012, and it covers most foreclosure/short sale situations.

See, I did not know that. 

By the way, lest anyone think I'm not dim, I just spent a good five minutes stabbing at the buttons on the copier trying to get it to work.  There's a reason the first tech support question is "Is it turned on?"

As far as regards the T-Rex question, I'm thinking a nice rocket launcher would work.  Or my plan, which is having a heart attack and dying from fear before the T-Rex eats me. 

154 With regard to number 2 I never could understand why people say that. I paid off my mortgage early and people harped about losing my "tax deduction".

At the time I was in the 35% tax category for I saved a whopping 35 cents on every dollar I spent on interest. IOW, it still cost me 65 cents.

155 156 Have no fear, an article this morning predicts the housing values will return to 2007 levels in the year 2030. No link. And probably wrong anyway since the future doesn't exist.

Posted by: Jimmah at October 03, 2011 10:46 AM (g9KCn)

Skynet Real Estate Services become self-aware at 10:15 EST on October 2, 2029.

156

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 03, 2011 10:37 AM (8y9MW)

I combined 1, 3, and 6 into one step.  Half of my savings are after-tax investments, and relatively liquid.  I combined 2 and 4, because I don't carry any debt - I pay cash for vehicles, or at worst within a year, and the childrens college savings are on top of the 20% I save for myself.

157 With regard to number 2 I never could understand why people say that. I paid off my mortgage early and people harped about losing my "tax deduction".

Simply because it's so big.  Also because, until just a few years ago, it was axiomatic that "mortgage = 'good' debt."

If you include your mortgage in with the rest of your debt, it would take roughly 10 years to get to the point where you're putting together your emergency fund and begin getting your kids' college funds together, etc.

By lumping the mortgage in with the last 3 (4) steps, you make the first three easier.  And, once you've got an emergency fund of 6 months set aside, there are very few things (financially) that are going to be a huge burden anymore.  If you're fairly careful, anyway.

158 Posted by: Vashta Nerada at October 03, 2011 10:53 AM (D5iHx)

If you can, more power to you.

159

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at October 03, 2011 10:53 AM (D5iHx)

Well, your last name means "No Advice" in Czech... so I have none to offer you...

160 Jeans plan, 1. 2k in cash 2. Never borrow money for a car 3. Pay off CC, cut them up - keep AMex 4. Put student loans on autopay, ignore till gone 5. If your not underwater, sell house buy smaller/further out, repeat until house is paid-off, you are now in Galts Gulch. 6. Invest in kids early education, prepare them for college of Parris Is. if that doesnt work out. 7. Work till I die

161 138

Simple question:

If we're inflating our money - making money worht less, how can you accuse the Chinese of cheapening theirs?

162 If you can, more power to you.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 03, 2011 10:55 AM (8y9MW)

  I am fortunate to be one of those individuals who gets as big a thrill putting money away as spending it.

163

A world covered in garbage.

164 I am fortunate to be one of those individuals who gets as big a thrill putting money away as spending it.

Oh, I like putting it away, too.  I just can't afford to, at the moment.  With any luck, that changes early next year.

165 Is it possible to be too O/T in a Doom? I'll risk it ... Following the news about the ALMA radio telescope, I wondered about a comparison to the Arecibo unit's capabilities and stumbled across the tidbit that, wait for it now, William J. Casey (D/CIA under President Ronald Reagan) is the assignee of the patent for the suspension system for the Arecibo dish. Go figure! It is a wonderous and complex world that we live in!

166 International Forecast Weekly

It's all gone, baby.

167 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

168

41 Posted by: Waterhouse at October 03, 2011 09:37 AM (umH4+)

Indeed.  I was buying into his logic for the first half of the article, then I find his "solution" is that "(t)he United States in particular requires an enhanced safety net of benefits for the unemployed unless and until it can produce enough jobs to return to our prior economic model..."

Three years of unemployment bennies isn't enough ?  Europe has just such an "enhanced safety net."  How's that working out for them ?

There is no way to "return to our prior economic model."  The third world has learned enough about political stability and education to encourage foreign investment, and that has tanked wages in the West, permanently.  We can't dig a moat, outlaw foreign investment or otherwise wish our way out of reality on this.

We can curtail immigration quotas.  We can better educate our population for the workforce at the compulsory level - and that means vocational training, not "everyone gets a college degree."  I'm willing to consider, but haven't totally thought out, a moratorium on college admission for non-citizens unless they agree to work in the US for x years, buy only at our publicly-funded universities.  We can socially encourage, not legally require, "buy American" (so long as American goods are comparable in quality and price).

All of these things will help Americans be employed, but none of them can raise wages and benefits significantly above the global norm without causing unemployment and outsourcing.  American workers will have to accept lower paying jobs with less bennies than grandpa had or accept being unemployed.  That's the reality and we can't wish ourselves out of this part, either.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, our politicians can stop selling pixie dust solutions and start telling people about reality.  Demagouging "the good ol' days" and the cheap-suit, equality of results "American Dream" retailed by John Edwards will only earn us Greek-style riots when reality comes-a-calling.  Start selling smart instead of stupid, D.C.  Otherwise, get the hell out of the way.

 

169 The NYT wails that "foreclosures are killing us".

From the article:

"Millions of Americans are locked into mortgages they canÂ’t afford."

Can't someone who is unable to pay their mortgage walk away from it if they wish? How exactly are they "locked" in?

170

Back durning QE2 Mondays tended to be up days as POMO money got plowed into equities.

Bennie's Twist aint doon that toon.