1 better find the paper towels.......

2 I love the smell of Doom in the morning,smells like,....Doom.

3 America: "Land of the Giants"

I have a great respect for Paul Ryan, but, at a certain level, graduated reform over ten years is irrelevant to the situation America’s facing. ... If interest rates were to return to the average for the years 1990–2010 (5.7 per cent), debt service alone could be sucking up just shy of a trillion bucks per annum within half a decade.

At that point, we won’t need to worry about an America “ten years out.”

Mark Steyn
April 26

4 @3 Don't sweat it . Ben will just print all the interest payments .

5 China can't possibly collapse! They have high speed rail, an amazing hyper-advanced infrastructure and no one analyzes what their preznit says about Egypt! I can't wait to have his job!

6

Ron Paul! and cheeze jonsin have something in common. heh.

7 Concerning California waking up to the perils they face: My sister is a certified moonbat. Her husband is even more left-wing; a surfer boy from southern California. They have been living in Virginia, and decided to move back to California.

My sister, though, being occasionally rational, realized CA is boned, and that their limited savings would go farther in PA, so they changed plans, and are now moving back to this area (NE PA).

When my sister knows California is boned, there is no excuse, short of mental retardation or serious heroin abuse, for anyone not to see the writing on the wall.

^{This DOOM update brought to you by Assless Chaps "R" Us, your source for the finest in post-apocalyptic formal wear. We now return you to your regular programming.}

8 Here's an interesting question to ask those who think that the government can create value ex nihilo.

Why Have Taxes at All?

9 Yoda Cat, portender of DOOM says, "Go long on catnip".

10 Kratos , It's the Fed , not the gubmint creating the value .

11

Seeing nothing but DOOM on the horizon is so motivating as always. None of this 'gain pleasure' crap, it's all to mitigate the 'pain'. Monty needs to have a DOOM course, available in 3 easy monthly installments of $19.95. Off to work. Easter bender is over.

Thanks Monty.

12

Bennie is dead meat.  Hussman's account only further paints him into the corner.  Unwinding his balance sheet, when IMF has 1/4 of world GDP in sovereign debt due for rollover in next 2 years and $3.6 Trillion in bank notes due over next 12, is impossible.

Yesterday's news from China, Japan and Saudi Arabia were the writing on the wall:  Mene, mene, tekel upharsin.

Bernanke may still dissemble tomorrow but he should be on suicide watch.

13

MPBN: "Maine Activists Rally Against Ryan Budget Plan"

"...Advocates for seniors and the disabled in Maine are protesting a Republican budget plan passed in the U.S. House that would roll back government entitlement programs.

At a Portland rally today, members of the Maine People's Alliance said that the GOP budget proposed by Congressman Paul Ryan, of Wisconsin, would leave many Maine recipients of Medicaid and Medicare without services."

Susan Collins is already on-record as being against the plan.

14 >>The real issue starts, not when China starts selling our bonds, but when China stops buying our bonds. As soon as that happens, we're in big trouble. Well I might not be a fancy pants economist with a blog like Meghan but this is what I have been saying for some time now. If the Fed stops buying and the Chinese stop buying interest rates are going through the roof.

15 Look at what the UNIONS have given us.  Crap.

16

Posted by: air max at April 26, 2011 09:35 AM (aIjUA)

You forgot 'Ron Paul / 2012'

If you're going to have pointless spamming, might as well include it all.

17 Bernanke may still dissemble tomorrow but he should be on suicide watch. I'm still wondering what Teh Bernank thinks he can say (in that famously round and oracular Fed-speak) that will reassure anyone. I expect a lot of lipstick-on-a-pig rationalization, and "if we hadn't done QE2, it would be TEH DOOM!" kind of stuff. But the markets aren't impressed, and forsee a lot of pain -- hence the $1500/oz gold and $50/oz silver. The USD is on a rocket-sled ride to irrelevance, and having Bernank up there uttering reassuring platitudes while the currency burns isn't going to fool anyone. I'm going to be watching the Kitco gold and silver charts during the speech to see what kind of moves they make.

18

>>Older Americans love their benefits, no matter how unsustainable or ruinous to the nation's finances, and will fight to keep them regardless of party affiliation.<<

BS thoughtless think-thought, fella.

The current structure is all most older people have to work with. That's it. That was the destination and it was affordable. Things have now changed but to snatch it away from old folks at this stage of their lives would leave most with nothing to do but die. (Hopefully under a bush somewhere rather than on the sidewalks, etc?)

Change things moving forward but do not present eldercide as a solution.

19 I like THE DRUMBEAT OF DOOM as a title for these posts.

20 Watch the DXY at the same time, Monty. It should resemble a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction.

21 Fucking Ron Paul. Why doesn't that son of a bitch go the fuck away?

22

I haven't been following the Bernak closely, doesn't he give a speech in the coming days?

 

Is there any chance interest rates will rise. I mean i love earning 0.8% on a 12 month CD when inflation is between 3%-12%(depending on who is doing the estimate), but I really would love to earn more interest on my money.

23

13-Miss80s

If we can't even talk about entitlement reform without seniors and astro- turf democrats breaking out in a fevered whine, the we are doomed.

Trillions in unfunded entitlements – and no one will take responsibility for not saddling future generations with crippling debt.  Selfish selfish people.

24 22 Fucking Ron Paul. Why doesn't that son of a bitch go the fuck away?


_word

25 >> That was the destination and it was affordable No it wasn't. This time bomb has been ticking for decades.

26

Refineries in Texas City went offline this morning due to power outages.  Most news reports list just a few, but I'm hearing from people it's widespread.

It'll take a while to safely bring them back up to capacity.

 

It's only 4-5% of our total domestic refining capacity.

27 Can't we just retire Ron Paul?  Come on, Texas, what's the deal?  I thought you were a smarter state than that.  Quit electing the old clown.  He reflects poorly on his son.

28 >>I haven't been following the Bernak closely, doesn't he give a speech in the coming days? Tomorrow. And what he says and does over the next couple months will have a profound effect not just on the economy and our long term future but the next election.

29 Well Robert Samuelson, what if Obama's plan is "to destroy America"?

Because if that IS  Obama's plan, it is going swimmingly.

30 26 Wunnerfull.

31 Things have now changed but to snatch it away from old folks at this stage of their lives would leave most with nothing to do but die. Citation, please. In other words: bullshit and more bullshit. Seniors, as a group, are the wealthiest segment of American society. Far less than 10% would be in the dire straits you speak of, and provisions could be made for them.

32

At a Portland rally today, members of the Maine People's Alliance said that the GOP budget proposed by Congressman Paul Ryan, of Wisconsin, would leave many Maine recipients of Medicaid and Medicare without services.

That is, what do you call it?  Oh, yes:  A lie.

Also, that Hussman piece Monty linked is racist.

33

Legal Insurrection:

Shell Oil Company has announced it must scrap efforts to drill for oil this summer in the Arctic Ocean off the northern coast of Alaska. The decision comes following a ruling by the EPAÂ’s Environmental Appeals Board to withhold critical air permits. The move has angered some in Congress and triggered a flurry of legislation aimed at stripping the EPA of its oil drilling oversight.

...

Environmental groups were thrilled by the ruling.

legalinsurrection. blogspot. com

34

"The current structure is all most older people have to work with. That's it. That was the destination and it was affordable. Things have now changed but to snatch it away from old folks at this stage of their lives would leave most with nothing to do but die. (Hopefully under a bush somewhere rather than on the sidewalks, etc?)"

 

Post Apocalyptic Travel Tip: Traveling in Ukraine recently it was common to see babushkas begging in the streets. Socialism is wonderful until it fails. Then it sucks. Village life is pretty hard on the old. You don't see very many older men. If you have no family you are really fucked. The good news is they still have statues of Lenin everywhere and large displays celebrating their liberation from the Germans. I often wonder if they think loosing to the Germans would have been better than being saved by the Russians?

35

Refineries in Texas City went offline this morning due to power outages.  Most news reports list just a few, but I'm hearing from people it's widespread.

It'll take a while to safely bring them back up to capacity.

 

It's only 4-5% of our total domestic refining capacity.

 

And its my understanding that Obama is dragging his feat on declaring it a state of emergency.

36

Refineries in Texas City went offline this morning due to power outages.  Most news reports list just a few, but I'm hearing from people it's widespread.

The reach of the speculators is long.

37 hahahahaha... fucking speculators!

38

Speaking of DOOM, does anyone have an update on how Japan is doing with their Fukushima reactors?  Has Godzilla arrived yet?  Have waitresses in the region's Maid cafes begun sprouting tentacles and gills?  I mean, the media, in their understated, histrionic way, was promoting the Fukushima crisis as the onslaught of some kind of dire nuclear catastrophe that would slaughter and deform millions.  They weren't hyperbolizing, were they?

39 23 13-If we can't even talk about entitlement reform without seniors and astro- turf democrats breaking out in a fevered whine, the we are doomed.

Trillions in unfunded entitlements – and no one will take responsibility for not saddling future generations with crippling debt.  Selfish selfish people.

 

The most ridiculous part of it is that they're not even being touched until 2021*. So no one is stealing anything from them.  

_{*Wish they were reforming sooner}

40

Anyone against real attempts to fix our debt and reform entitlements is a selfish fucking moron. and probably - a bad faith supporter of corruptocrats.

41 There should be a 10% paycut on all government entitlements and salaries including elected and appointed positions. No one will die. They would just have to tighten their belts like everyone else. I took a 40% paycut in 2002 and I only died a little bit.

42

Speaking of DOOM, does anyone have an update on how Japan is doing with their Fukushima reactors? 

I think I read in the headline thread that Vic and Abe Vigoda will be taking care of it on the way back from the royal wedding.

 

43

I took a 40% paycut in 2002 and I only died a little bit.

I hope it wasn't any, you know, important parts.

44

33 More on the Shell decision:

"Shell has spent five years and nearly $4 billion dollars on plans to explore for oil in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas. The leases alone cost $2.2 billion...

At stake is an estimated 27 billion barrels of oil. ThatÂ’s how much the U. S. Geological Survey believes is in the U.S. portion of the Arctic Ocean. For perspective, that represents two and a half times more oil than has flowed down the Trans Alaska pipeline throughout its 30-year history. That pipeline is getting dangerously low on oil. At 660,000 barrels a day, itÂ’s carrying only one-third its capacity."

45

The most ridiculous part of it is that they're not even being touched until 2021*. So no one is stealing anything from them.  

The tribal regressives paint the thieves and virtuous and those who want to fix real problems as villains.

46 I think we've found THE SPECULATORS^tm--they all work at EPA.

47 Yup, if the AARP and any thinking senior wants to keep close to current benefits they had better get on the Ryan bandwagon.    Do these blooming idiots think hitting the debt ceiling in some form and only gettting 70 or 80 percent of their "entitlements" cuz that is all the revenue coming into the treasury is going to be fun? 

48

I think I read in the headline thread that Vic and Abe Vigoda will be taking care of it on the way back from the royal wedding.

 Posted by: Mama AJ at April 26, 2011 09:56 AM (XdlcF)

Ah, of course! 

Hang on... Abe Vigoda is alive?

;-)

49 Far less than 10% would be in the dire straits you speak of, and provisions could be made for them.

Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 09:48 AM (/0a60)

Citation, Please.

I personally think it will be a hell of a lot more than 10%. Basically, almost every old person in every ghetto/barrio/trailer park, for example. At this point, though, I suspect we are both pulling numbers out of our bungholes.

I'm not where to get the stats needed to properly quantify the number of people who would literally die of starvation if SS was withdrawn. I'd love to look into it, though. Any suggestions?

(One other thing. I like DOOM posts as much as the next moron, but I think some DOOM-related threads might be instructive. For example: How could we "Make provisions" for the truly needy if we abolish SS? State programs? Local charities? And, what do the various morons have in place where they live. It would be interesting to see just how many places have - or don't have - food kitchens and other privately funded programs in place.)

50

RE: the Shell decision. 

Who wants to lay odds on Obama striking some kind of deal with the Russians in the near future that allows them to drill in the waters off the coast of Alaska?  So that we can become their "best customer." 

I don't have much in the way of disposable income at the moment, but I'd be willing to take that bet.

51 enough about doom.....let's talk about DOOM!

52 I have done allot of thinking on all this and to be honest I see no way our problems get fixed politically.

I have been a republican all my life which is going on 56 years, and I have to say I am tired of the promises these folks make and then when they get elected they do not follow through.

How many more times are we going to be lied to before we wake up and understand this is all a game and we are the pawns in said game.
That most of the R's have progressive tendencies and basically democrap lite.
They are not small government and they are not fiscally responsible.
They make me sick to be honest and you know we are going to get stuck with a presidential candidate that says more of the same old crap we have been fed over the years.

I wouldn't be afraid to bet you that even if we take all 3 branches, nothing is going to get done to fix these problems.
This isn't about electing R's folks this is about finding people who have the balls to do whats best for the country, people who will SERVE their country and not their special interests.

In other words we are screwed because like I said, we are not going to fix this politically.

53 That Andrew Malcolm column linked in the sidebar is must-reading!  Shows exactly how indifferent this White House is to even making Obama look like he gives a shit.

54

anyone see that link i put up on the sidebar yesterday. I will post it again here. It's important for anyone who owns sivler funds or gold funds.

Essentially, some guy bought 5000 oz silver back in 2003 for $4.94, through a fund. The fund was charging him storage fees and everything.

Well recently he was talking with a coin dealer and the coin dealer dared him to take delivery of the 5000 oz of silver. Well, when the guy called up the fund and asked for delivery, they said it was not possible. He was part of a pool acccount and only took part in benefiting from the appreciation.

I remember Dylan Ratigan on MSNBC once attacking Glenn Beck over the fact that Beck suggested buying physical gold. Ratigan told people that if they wanted Gold they should just buy shares of GLD.  Glenn mocked him and told Dylan that when things break down that he should go to a store with his paper shared of GLD and see if people accept that.

 

The point being, if you're buying "shares" in gold or silver, there may not actually be any gold or silver to back it up.

 

55

Oh, I thought of something for you to write about, Monty.

Last time gas prices shot up, I got twitchy with a couple people who were going on about how they couldn't drive as much, had to take the smaller car, etc. because of the prices. But they were looking at the total price and freaking about it, instead of looking at the difference in prices. Basic ecomonic idea, but one that goes out the window when one is upset.

56

Yup, if the AARP and any thinking senior wants to keep close to current benefits they had better get on the Ryan bandwagon.    Do these blooming idiots think hitting the debt ceiling in some form and only gettting 70 or 80 percent of their "entitlements" cuz that is all the revenue coming into the treasury is going to be fun? 

it's the same thing with unions and their pensions. They think their two options are this:

1.Keep the current pension exactly as it is

2. Take cuts

 

When in reality option one isn't really an option. It's like driving towards a cliff, if you maintain the status quo, you're going off the cliff. Staying the course in this instance isn't a legitimate option,, and the problem is that this isn't being made clear by the people that should have the interest of union workers at heart, the union leaders.

57 Did ya'll know that Pres. Shanksalot is actually a 'moderate Republican'?

So says Ezra "That Shit is Old!" Klein

*giggle*

58 19 I like
THE DRUMBEAT OF DOOM
as a title for these posts.


I'd like to put a GOOD word for:

THE STACCATO REPORTS OF THE DRUMBEAT OF DOOM

59 #18 : good attempt at mocking the ignorance of a disciple of D'ohbama (I hope)

60 #34  They welcomed the Germans as liberators-until they realized the ostplan involved urban starvation, keeping the peasants on the collective farms and a 100:1 reprisal rate on civilians for partisan attacks on German soldiers.  Oh, and those mass shootings.

Of course, given Stalin as the alternative, they were already...what's the word...oh yeah...BONED.

61 The real question is, how will Obama find a way to suck more cock today than he did yesterday? Will he call tea party people tea baggers again while urinating on a Bible? Will he sue the state of Arizona again for enforcing laws on Democrats? Enquiring minds wanna know

62 The point being, if you're buying "shares" in gold or silver, there may not actually be any gold or silver to back it up. The time to buy gold or silver was a couple of years ago when it was still cheap. Now? It's out of control -- the last batch of silver I bought a little over a year ago was $15/oz. Now it's right around $50/oz. Gold is hitting $1500/oz. But remember: you don't "own" gold or silver unless you have the actual physical metal in your possession. If you're have certificates or shares in an ETF or something, you are investing in precious metals (i.e., making profit in USD off the price variations in the metals).

63

it's the same thing with unions and their pensions. They think their two 3 options are this:

1.Keep the current pension exactly as it is

2. Take cuts

3. Profit! Increase pension!

64 NRO: In Search of Petrovillains

65 Last time gas prices shot up, I got twitchy with a couple people who were going on about how they couldn't drive as much, had to take the smaller car, etc. because of the prices. People see gas hikes in an interesting way: it is an immediate and very real tax-hit in a way that almost any other tax (except inflationary food prices) is not. People pass gas stations all the time, and see the prices creep up; they get hit with increases every time they fill up at the pump. It doesn't add up to much over the course of the year in cumulative terms -- a couple of hundred bucks, maybe -- but it has a vastly outsized impact because it's something that happens every single day. It's also a highly-regressive tax on the poor, of course, but this is true of any price-increase of a commodity.

66 "If deficits don't matter and the government can just print money any time they want, why levy taxes at all? The silence coming out of the liberal cognoscenti on that question is deafening." - Monty The school of thought called Modern Monetary Theory (a.k.a. chartalism) does offer an answer to that question. I'm not saying their answer is correct, but it's not deafening silence. From the Wikipedia entry on chartalism (bold emphasis added): "Chartalism aims to describe and analyse modern economies where the national currency is established and exclusively created by the government, and money is created through government spending. Taxation is employed to establish the fiat money as currency, through reclaiming part of the money. The demand to hold and acquire this government-issued currency is driven by taxes levied by the state, which typically can only be paid in the state-issued fiat currency. Reclaiming the issued money, via taxation, is also essential to maintaining its value in exchange." IOW, according to MMT the role of taxes is to establish the value of fiat money as legal tender.

67 Older Americans love their benefits, no matter how unsustainable or ruinous to the nation's finances, and will fight to keep them regardless of party affiliation.

Older Americans, for the most part, worked for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them.

68 Boehner going after big oil subsidies:

Congress should consider cutting multibillion-dollar subsidies to oil companies amid rising concern over skyrocketing gas prices, House of Representatives Speaker John Boehner said on Monday.

"It's certainly something we should be looking at," Boehner said in an ABC News interview. "We're in a time when the federal government's short on revenues. They ought to be paying their fair share."

"Everybody wants to go after the oil companies and frankly, they've got some part of this to blame," he said.

69 California Seizing Safe Deposit Boxes to Balance Budget.

70 Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 10:17 AM (/0a60)

The cost of fuel for one's personal use may be small, but because fuel is used by pretty much everyone, the cumulative effect is large. Just look at its effect on food costs.

71

And my question(s):  End "subsidies" (big honking bullshit term) and then A) what? and B) who do we blame when prices go up EVEN MORE?

Exxon makes eight percent profit.  Yes, on a huge revenue stream, but eight percent is not exactly gouging.

72 >> Older Americans, for the most part, worked paid a tax for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them a government that lied to them when they called it a contribution to a retirement plan.

Fixt

73 The corollary question to Kratos' why levy taxes is why have a debt limit at all if you just keep raising it.  Its not really a debt limit.

74 Older Americans, for the most part, worked for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them. As William Munny says in Unforgiven, "deserve's got nothing to do with it." Just deserving something doesn't guarantee it. There's no money, no prospects of money any time soon, and a guarantee of ruin if we don't change our ways. It's not a question of "fairness" or whatever other touchy-feely metric you want to use; it's a question of basic bookkeeping. There is no money. We are broke. Busted. Skint. Bereft of funds. Cleaned out.

75 New Black Panther Party Teaches Children About ‘Crackers’ and Black Power[The enemy] is racist white folks and the government."


Wow.  For a minute there, I forgot our President was white.

76

One other thing. I like DOOM posts as much as the next moron, but I think some DOOM-related threads might be instructive. For example: How could we "Make provisions" for the truly needy if we abolish SS?

This!  Obviously one of the biggest threats to entitlement reform is the fear associated with any hint of funding cuts.  The problem that I continually have with politicians is they will talk about reforming SS or Medicare or Medicaid -- all of which is necessary -- but they NEVER talk about what will "fill the void," be it real or imagined, in a person's wallet.

When you tell a person, "We've got to cut spending on social security," what they're going to hear is, "We're going to cut money out of the check you receive every month."   True or not, fact or fiction, that is what people hear, and that causes a lot of fear and pushback.  There are greedy people who fight against entitlement reform just because they're avaricious bastards, but there are also a lot of scared people who honestly don't know what would happen to their homes, health and personal welfare in light of such reforms.

That's why, at the same time as entitlement reform is explained and enacted, there should be an equally strong push from the private sector - charities, humanitarian agencies, companies, private citizens, etc -- that says, "We know you're afraid, but listen.  We're here for you.  We're not going to let you slip through the cracks."  Welfare and social security and Medicare and Medicaid have all been around so long that the recipients of those services only have the experience of being "cared for" by a nameless, faceless government bureaucracy.  The infusion of some living, breathing, flesh-and-blood, genuine human sentiment would do an incredible amount of good in calming the reflexive pushback that inevitably accompanies discussions of entitlement reform.  The extent of what could or should be done is really less important than the acknowledgement that people are worried about being forgotten. 

The problem, of course, is money.  Everyone has only just so much they can afford, and even the most charitable person or company can only give so much.  Add to that the environment of fear the government has created that surrounds everyone's finances right now ("Are my taxes going to go up?"  "Am I going to be able to put gas in my car this week?"  "Am I going to lose my job?"  "Am I going to lose my home?") and you've got a recipe for inaction. 

That's why it is even more important to get out the message about conservative budget principles that promote economic growth and stability, and to make sure that our elected officials actively implement those principles.  That's the only way to combat the fear.  It does no good if our politicians promise tax cuts and reduced spending on the campaign trail and then dawdle when they reach office; they need to do something about it.  That's what the newly-elected congress is starting to figure out.  We're not just going to sit on the sidelines anymore and take what teh government gives us.  We have to keep pushing until they remember that they work for us, not the other way around.

*panting*  Wow.  That turned into a much longer soliloquoy than I'd intended!

77 69 Good lord. I was half expecting to link to The Onion.

78

Older Americans, for the most part, worked for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them.

My children would like a word with your logic.

79 The cost of fuel for one's personal use may be small, but because fuel is used by pretty much everyone, the cumulative effect is large. Well, sure...but that's true of any consumable commodity. Milk, sugar, bread, grains, oil, cotton -- any price increase in those commodities is going to have an immediate and outsized impact because it touches on everybody in the economy, not just certain narrow groups.

80

 It doesn't add up to much over the course of the year in cumulative terms -- a couple of hundred bucks, maybe -- but it has a vastly outsized impact because it's something that happens every single day.

Yeh. It was just lack of comparison btwn the old and new prices that I thought might be illuminating. Paying $75 for gas hurts, but paying $20 more isn't actually as bad and might not make it necessary to change plans.

OTOH, the more people feel the pain, the more likely they are to vote against Obama, so shhhhh.

81 Boehner's oil company statement is just full of stupid, unless its some grand plan at a trap for the dems, even then, its full of stupid.

I believe in ending all subsidies for everything, but if the oil companies have more costs it will just be passed on to consumers.

82 You know, I'm starting to think it might not have been such a good idea that the founders enshrined in the Constitution the right of every citizen to participate in a federally-administered defined benefit pension plan.

Oh, wait ...

83 Having heard beck "wax poetic" yet again about spider man which I think is dark cause of all the problems, I've concluded that he must either have them as a sponsor or he's an investor in the show.

I've heard nothing but that it was not as good as people expected.

84

47 Yup, if the AARP and any thinking senior wants to keep close to current benefits they had better get on the Ryan bandwagon.    Do these blooming idiots think hitting the debt ceiling in some form and only gettting 70 or 80 percent of their "entitlements" cuz that is all the revenue coming into the treasury is going to be fun? 

The most interesting thing to me is that, for all this supposed outrage over the changes to Medicare and Medicaid, people aren't out in the streets protesting the changes. You do hear about some concerned citizens asking legitimate questions plus Dem plants causing some trouble at townhalls, but this hasn't been a widespread pattern throughout the country (only in some swing districts). So either the outrage as claimed by the Dems is imagined or people aren't motivated enough to say anything about it.  

85 Older Americans, for the most part, worked for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them.


Hmm.  They did work for those years and they did earn during it but saying they earned the benefits seems an exaggeration.  Look what you pay in social security taxes in a month and multiply it out for 30 or 45 years.

86

OTOH, the more people feel the pain, the more likely they are to vote against Obama provided the Republicans make it clear that it is OBAMA and his administration's policies, not "evil" oil company executives and speculators, that are making gas prices, food prices, and energy costs shoot through the stratosphere, so shhhhh.

Posted by: Mama AJ at April 26, 2011 10:31 AM (XdlcF)

FIFY. 

87 Obama Prepares to Dump Biden, Spotted With New Running Mate

88 78

Older Americans, for the most part, worked for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them.

My children would like a word with your logic.

And your children, along with all posterity, deserve not to be burdened by the crushing debt generated by the short-sightedness of their predecessors.

89 #84 Millions of people in the streets protesting taxes and spending = astroturf

An occasional question from a plant at a town hall = massive unrest

90 MWR: Churches have traditionally provided the "saftey nets" of a given society, and still do in many communities. Extended families also provided a measure of security for the elderly. But the relentless encroachment of the State into areas formerly reserved for the Church and family have turned many people into wards of the State -- they depend on government checks for their daily bread. I don't know what to tell those folks. Yes, they can still turn to places like their Church, the Goodwill stores, the Salvation Army, and other private charities for the necessaries of life; but it's not going to come in the form of money. If they didn't save any money of their own, and don't have family or friends to turn to, they're screwed. It ain't fair, but then again, life is not fair. It is the normal state of human life on this planet to be poor. Americans tend to forget that we are sui generis in the entire sweep of human history -- we are not the norm, but a deviation from the norm. We have raised entire generations of people who forgot the most basic lessons of life on earth: provide for yourself and your family; save your money; and cultivate good family and community ties to get you through hard times. I feel bad for folks of whatever age who, through bad luck or catastrophe, have to resort to seeking help. A civilized nation always provides a hand up in times like that. But I have less pity for people who never save for their own futures, never plan ahead, and waste their money on frivolities. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

91 Silver has been all over the place in the past 24 hours.  I think the cartel is trying to scare people into rolling over their SLV options instead of taking delivery, thinking it will bounce back by the end of the week.

92 Guess who said this and what they are talking about:

"It's unfortunate that a religious leader would use Easter Sunday to make preposterous" statements, White House press secretary Jay Carney responded Monday.  (The Hill)

93 #85 The rate of return for social security is nothing compared to what it would have been had they been permitted to invest the money themselves.

And I may be wrong here, but one of the real drivers of the cost of social security is an explosion in payments of SSI to younger people for disabilities.

I use the term "disability" loosely, since IIRC one can draw a disability payment if one's child is diagnosed with ADHD.

94 Well you can't get elected promising to cut people's benefits. There are more takers than workers now, and they have figured out that they can just vote themselves more stuff by taking away from the working class. As Maggie Thatcher said, "socialism works great until you run out of other people's money."

95 Guess who said this.......White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said

Heh.

96 amen monty

97 93 #85 The rate of return for social security is nothing compared to what it would have been had they been permitted to invest the money themselves.

FIFY  (Yep, spent as it comes in plus some)

98 Posted by: Ben at April 26, 2011 10:06 AM (wuv1c)

SLV has a percentage of the paper.  It's been explained to me a thousand times, my friends who know told me that for me, it's a good idea.

99 By the time we get to November 2012 Obama's numbers will so bad he probably will withdraw his name and resign rather than accept a humiliating defeat.  He is a ball-less wonder and only cares how he will be preceived in the Commie world and if he is severely rejected by the American people that would be a death blow to his precious legacy ....

100 It depends on what kind of benefits we are talking about - handouts or an earned pension? Taking away someone's pension that they spent most of their life earning is a violation of the contract and makes the taker no better than an obamanite looter.

101 Darn it!  I thought I took that off there. LOL

102 Anyone - my son owns a Gold Eagle coin, 1 oz.  It was given to him 10 years ago by his godfather.  Also owns a few old silver dollars.  He is starting college this fall and we are going to be hard pressed to pay for it.  Should he sell the coins now, or should we hang on to them in case the shit hits the fan and people stop taking paper money?

103 My children would like a word with your logic.

Oh, it's for the children. I guess Obama could take your house and 401k - someone's children need it.

104 76, MWR:  The infusion of some living, breathing, flesh-and-blood, genuine human sentiment would do an incredible amount of good in calming the reflexive pushback that inevitably accompanies discussions of entitlement reform.

An enormous part of the problem is that the Left has been successfully attacking all institutions that might serve as alternatives - the traditional family, churches - for the past 100 years.  Other institutions like mutual aid societies were either quickly brought under the spell of Communism pre-WW1 or became moribund and simply were replaced by the state.

The issue is how to revive alternatives to the state in such a way that they carry the same legitimacy in the popular mind as what historically has been enjoyed by the nation-state itself.  And the Left has been so successful at de-legitimizing them that we can't as a people even formulate concrete alternatives that have emotional resonance and inspire trust.  We can discuss them in an arid, abstract way, but do very little in "calming the reflexive pushback."  And that is pretty much all we should be doing. 

105 >> But the relentless encroachment of the State into areas formerly reserved for the Church and family have turned many people into wards of the State -- they depend on government checks for their daily bread.

This is the only reason I support a phased approach to weaning ourselves off this problem like Ryan proposes rather than just throwing grandma from the train like the left and the MFM (BIRM) accuse us of.

This problem has been generations in the making and the GOP is only slightly less complicit in causing it than the Donks. The responsible thing to do is gradually eliminate these programs over time while leaving a system intact to care for those who truly can't (as opposed to "won't") care for themselves.

Unfortunately, I believe we're past the point at which there's much of a chance that the math will allow for this approach to succeed.

106

Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 10:39 AM (/0a60)

I totally see and understand your point, Monty.  I just think that one of the problems our side encounters is that we are always perceived -- fraudulently so -- as not caring about people.  That's about as stupid as it gets, IMHO, because we care a helluva lot more than the other side.  I think we need to make it clear that we aren't just cheerfully planning to lop off a chunk of the population like dead wood and leave them to rot, which is what the media and the left like to imply.  Even if all we can offer is, "We know you're there, we know you're worried,  this is what our reforms really mean, and this is how it will effect you," then we have to do that.  We're far more rational and far-thinking than the leftists, which is why we know reforms are needed.  But we're also much kinder than the left, which is why we want people to feel secure in themselves without being forced to depend on the government.  The media likes to ignore that and portray us as blood-thirsty grandma killers, so we have to work quadruply hard to combat that impression.  It's not easy, and it's not the most important thing on the table, but it should at least be a serious part of the conversation.

That's one of the reasons I've always been offended by the term "compassionate conservative."  It's the reason I didn't want to vote for GWB back in 2000 until the primaries forced my hand.  Conservatives are compassionate.  It's who we are.  To imply otherwise is not just rude, it's damaging. 

107 I feel bad for folks of whatever age who, through bad luck or catastrophe, have to resort to seeking help. A civilized nation always provides a hand up in times like that. But I have less pity for people who never save for their own futures, never plan ahead, and waste their money on frivolities. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 10:39 AM (/0a60)

I agree with you, but most of us didn't plan on being unemployed and our industries dead after 25-year careers either. 

108 >> Taking away someone's pension that they spent most of their life earning is a violation of the contract and makes the taker no better than an obamanite looter.

Show me the contract you signed.

109 Taking away someone's pension that they spent most of their life earning is a violation of the contract and makes the taker no better than an obamanite looter. Social Security is not a pension. You pay a tax that is then immediately paid out to current beneficiaries. It is welfare (or a "benefit", if you don't like using the word "welfare".) I have pointed this out time and time again: Social Security is a tax! It is not a pension, or a savings account, or anything else. It is not even a guaranteed benefit, as Flemming vs Nestor established; the government can revoke the benefit at any time. Your Social Security "benefit" is not an asset. You can't sell it to someone else. You can't use it as collateral for a loan. You have no say in how or where it gets invested. You can't withdraw the full amount as a lump-sum. In short: if you can't sell it or use it in any way you would a normal asset, then you don't really own it. It's governmental welfare, and it can be revoked at any time. Also: the well is now dry, and beginning this year, the Social Security Administration is borrowing money to cover the shortfalls in tax revenues. This shortfall is going to get bigger every year until either the system collapses or the program is abolished.

110 And I may be wrong here, but one of the real drivers of the cost of social security is an explosion in payments of SSI to younger people for disabilities.

I use the term "disability" loosely, since IIRC one can draw a disability payment if one's child is diagnosed with ADHD.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at April 26, 2011 10:40 AM (oDMwn)

In West Virginia the new thing (because of the remote towns) is for the gov't (SS) to pay a person to take care of there elderly relatives because a nurse can't drive there to get to them.  Now, these family care givers make money watching their own moms and dads plus they make money by selling their meds.  Plus, most of these guys making money off their parents are also collecting a SSI or SS or Unemployment check.

They are getting 2 sometimes 3 (watching both parents) checks from gov't plus selling their parent's meds.

111 i'm wondering how am i supposed to pay for things with gold? each coin is supposedly worth 1500. so i give you my 1500 gold coin to buy a 500 loaf of bread? and you cut my coin up to give me change? and then you point your gun at me and ask for the difference back? and take a bite of my loaf of bread.........

112

52 I have done allot of thinking on all this and to be honest I see no way our problems get fixed politically.
Posted by: MarkC at April 26, 2011 10:05 AM (yPPVC)

I believe you too. All of the welfare states are just too far gone with too many people too reliant on their government checks for any meaningful changes to take place.

Canada's election is coming up soon but I'm not even going to bother voting. Aside from the fact that I loathe and have no respect for what this country has become, I also know that if any of the Conservatives came to my door, they would be shocked and appalled at what I would want from their government.

Q. Will this government lower the personal income tax to a flat tax of 20% across all income groups? Will it eliminate or privatize 80% of the government workforce? Will it put a two year sunset clause on all government rules and regulations that relate to businesses and individuals letting all laws expire and repassing only the most essential laws? Will the government make it law that no government employee, outside of cyber-security and a few select highly specialized fields, earn a salary and benefits no more than 85% of what that person could earn in the private sector?

Q. Will this government admit that climate change is not man made and remove the Canadian government and all funding to all climate research, environmental groups, climate change treaties, etc? Will this government reverse the ban on incandescent light bulbs?

Q. Will this government admit that the Koran is a book of hate? Will it end Muslim immigration to Canada? Will it give incentives for the current Muslims to leave?

We're not even in the same ballpark.

At least with the Tea Party, I can see a very small, tiny chance in 2012 of major change happening. Unless the debt ceiling is raised, then in which case, it really doesn't matter.

113 Oh, it's for the children. I guess Obama could take your house and 401k - someone's children need it.

Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 10:52 AM (IpIBJ)

You have it precisely in reverse.  Those children will have their money seized to pay debts they didn't incur.

114

What's the worst that could happen?

Come to Syria my friends.  Doom can be far more literal than your little economic problems.   

115 I agree with you, but most of us didn't plan on being unemployed and our industries dead after 25-year careers either. No one ever plans on it...but it happens all the time. I don't know why people don't plan for it, since that is the case -- all the works of man pass into history eventually. It's one of the only guarantees we have. I think what our forebears knew, and something we have forgotten, is that nothing is certain. Nothing. So the prudent man must plan for the worst while hoping for the best -- thus he is well-prepared for either outcome.

116 100:  Dude you sound like the teachers WHINING that they cant retire at age 55 after working SO HARD for 30 years like they were promised they could do.    Cry me a river --after you look around the private sector and see how few jobs will pay similar amounts and what those benefits look like.   Cowboy up and work until 60 you crybabies.   Who in HELL thinks working for 30 years should set them up for life?  If you haven't worked at least 40 you have Nothing to whine about.   And senior citizens who retired after only working 10-15 years at the current rates certainly did get more from the government then they would have had by investing.  and medicare?  PUHLEASE  --look at your pay statement some time.   The medicare deduction is tiny compared to what that level of insurance costs in the real world.    Even taking a 40 year work life and only 10 years after retirement  it isn't paid for.  

117

The issue is how to revive alternatives to the state in such a way that they carry the same legitimacy in the popular mind as what historically has been enjoyed by the nation-state itself.  And the Left has been so successful at de-legitimizing them that we can't as a people even formulate concrete alternatives that have emotional resonance and inspire trust. 

Posted by: Skookumchuk at April 26, 2011 10:53 AM (btzPD)

Amen.  Sadly, but amen.

Unfortunately, I believe we're past the point at which there's much of a chance that the math will allow for this approach to succeed.

Posted by: Andy at April 26, 2011 10:53 AM (5Rurq)

I know it's the truth, and mathematically there's very little we can do to cushion the blow, but I can't help it; it still breaks my heart.  I think about all the grandmothers and grandfathers out there who never see their grandchildren, never hear from their own children, and now this... *sigh*  It's one of the few areas in which I can't help but feel like a silly, squishy girly-girl who wished she'd spent more time with her grandpa.

118 i'm wondering how am i supposed to pay for things with gold? each coin is supposedly worth 1500. so i give you my 1500 gold coin to buy a 500 loaf of bread? and you cut my coin up to give me change? and then you point your gun at me and ask for the difference back? and take a bite of my loaf of bread......... Gold, at current valuations, does not make a good currency. (See my previous "What is money?" post from a couple of weeks back.) However, it is still money and can be exchanged for goods and services just like any other money. If you need smaller units of currency, you can exchange your gold ounce for dollars (or Euros, or Yen, or Renminbi); or find a bank or brokerage that takes gold on deposit, and then write drafts (checks) against that account; or make a deal with a butcher, baker, or candle-stick maker to take your gold ounce (or put it into escrow) and then allow you to accrue goods and services at a pre-determined rate until the value of the gold ounce is fully transferred from buyer to seller.

119 "to take arms against a sea of troubles

and by opposing, end them"

120 I think what our forebears knew, and something we have forgotten, is that nothing is certain. Nothing. So the prudent man must plan for the worst while hoping for the best -- thus he is well-prepared for either outcome.

And that is the hidden cost of all these government social programs - they coerce people into giving up their ability to plan for the future in return for an empty promise (at least when the money eventually runs dry).  Not only that, they give people the false impression that they no longer have to engage in charity in order to help out their fellow people themselves, thereby robbing people of the incentive to build stable communities on their own. 

All these massive government programs not only deprive people of material wealth, they also entice people into giving away major aspects of what make them human.

121 I think in Argentina they buy/bought their gold as necklaces and they cut off the # of links needed for small purchases.   I have no idea how the retailers figure out if its real gold and the carat weights. 

122

Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 10:56 AM (/0a60)

While I suspect real joe is a troll, I think the point of his post was that social security would count as a handout, but a pension such as one might receive from a private company (back in the day -- today I think it's all 401(K)s) is not.  Seizing a private citizen's pension -- or 401(K) -- would be tantamount to theft, unless I'm completely misconstruing the mechanics of how pensions and retirement investment plans work. 

123 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at April 26, 2011 11:09 AM (9hSKh)

Well said.

124 Is this the longbows thread?

125 Posted by: MWR at April 26, 2011 11:11 AM (4df7R)

How is that any different from what was done to the GM bond holders?  They were called greedy by the president.  How do we know that some little old ladies, who were school teachers, didn't have their pensions all tied up in GM bonds and lost everything?

126 The solution to SS is to start to phase it out completely.  Young people will not be able to get it anyway.  In my opinion, these types of programs make us slaves to the state.  I'll let you guys figure out the age of phase out, newborn, 18, 35, 45. 


Haven't yet figured out Medicare and Medicaid, give me 5 or 10 minutes.

127 A quick "drive-by" observation before I have to open the store.  Went to the grocery on my way in this morning and have suffered a severe case of sticker shock.  Saltine Crackers, Premium Brand, up from 1.79 to 2.49 and the box is 2/3 the size of usual.  A 16 oz package of Italian Sausage, Johnsonville, from 2.49 to 3.99 on sale, regular marked $4.19.  Butter, 1 #, up from 2.49 to 3.29 and I live in a Dairy state.  Gas was up .04 per gallon from yesterday.  How am I going to stay in business??!!??

128 All these massive government programs not only deprive people of material wealth, they also entice people into giving away major aspects of what make them human.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at April 26, 2011 11:09 AM (9hSKh)

That's why I say that every child's nursery should have a framed print of Ben Franklin's quote:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

129

Posted by: MWR at April 26, 2011 10:28 AM (4df7R)

Posted by: Andy at April 26, 2011 10:53 AM (5Rurq)

I think when people hear that you can judge a nation on how they treat its poor, they mistake that for whether or not you have a large, 'caring' government bureaucracy to take care of people cradle to grave. That isn't correct. You can judge a nation on how its individual people take care of the poor when a large monolithic government is not there to do so.

I think potentially the best and only way to end the entitlements would be first to start with welfare and Section 8 and the majority of those programs designed to 'help lift the poor out of poverty'.

Announce that effective immediately, there will be no more new people allowed to enroll in any of the government welfare programs.

Explain that these programs will be ending in 5 years giving people plenty of time to get any education, skills or family arrangements they may need by that time. Starting next year, all government checks will be cut 20%, and 20% each subsequent year until they reach 0% at the end of 5 years.

Testing and qualifying for the programs will no longer happen. All government employees in these agencies will also be eliminated over the course of the 5 years.

This would let people at least try to move away from government and into the hands of families, churches, etc. It would be much less cruel then when we simply yank the government bottle away because there's no more cash, which is probably what will happen.

130 I have no idea how the retailers figure out if its real gold and the carat weights.

It didn't matter, since those gold or gold plated links were widely accepted as "money".

131 There are many alternatives to government-linked pensions. They could have been put in place back in the Thirties, but we had a Commie President then. We are basically fighting the last battles of the Internal Cold War.

132 >> All these massive government programs not only deprive people of material wealth, they also entice people into giving away major aspects of what make them human.

That's really it in a nutshell, isn't it?

"Social Security" helps to destroy the social fabric of the nation. Downright Orwellian.

133 >>While I suspect real joe is a troll, I think the point of his post was that social security would count as a handout, but a pension such as one might receive from a private company The problem is, he is wrong. SS is nothing more than a government sponsored ponzi scheme. If someone tried to implement this scheme in the private sector they would be sitting in a jail cell right next to Madoff. I am so sick of hearing Dems say over and over again that SS and Medicare have been two of the most successful gov't programs of all time. They haven't. They have been time bombs built into our economy waiting for the time when demographics and reckless spending collided. That time is now. Time to pay the piper.

134 I am no troll, I have been on this site for years. I am a retired civil servant who worked 30 years in a mind-numbing job at a salary lower than I could have earned on the outside, largely based on the promise of receiving that pension. I was not talking about social security or any other kind of entitlement.

135

You have it precisely in reverse.  Those children will have their money seized to pay debts they didn't incur.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 26, 2011 10:58 AM (FkKjr)

So you think it's ok to seize MY property? Where do you get that right,. looter?

136 I am no troll, I have been on this site for years. I am a retired civil servant who worked 30 years in a mind-numbing job at a salary lower than I could have earned on the outside, largely based on the promise of receiving that pension. I was not talking about social security or any other kind of entitlement. Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 11:17 AM (IpIBJ) Ever see the movie Animal House?

137 >> I was not talking about social security or any other kind of entitlement.

I read into it that you were equating social security with a pension plan. My bad.

138 promise of receiving that pension.

You'll get it, just in largely devalued dollars.

Most private sector companies phased those out or paid the current value and ended them years ago.

139 I should have been clearer about the pension benefit.

140 How is that any different from what was done to the GM bond holders?  They were called greedy by the president.  How do we know that some little old ladies, who were school teachers, didn't have their pensions all tied up in GM bonds and lost everything?

Posted by: curious at April 26, 2011 11:13 AM (k1rwm)

I think we all agree that the government takeover of GM was an affront to all and everyone, and the only reason it was done was to preserve union jobs and keep the money flowing from union coffers to Democrat pockets.  In the minds of Democrats, bondholders are second class citizens who make evil profits at the expense of union dues wages.  The whole "too big to fail" argument is preposterous.  There's this thing called "bankruptcy" that exists for a reason.

So yes, I actually do view the GM takeover as theft, pure and simple.  But then I also view the shakedown of BP for $20 billion in "relief" funds without any kind of trial or due process theft as well.  Theft and gangster government - it's the new hotness!

141

Posted by: momma at April 26, 2011 10:21 AM (penCf)

Is Boner really that stupid? We're screwed.

142

I am no troll, I have been on this site for years. I am a retired civil servant who worked 30 years in a mind-numbing job at a salary lower than I could have earned on the outside, largely based on the promise of receiving that pension. I was not talking about social security or any other kind of entitlement.

Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 11:17 AM (IpIBJ)

Really? what job was that? In Washington the Government Class Employees make more than their private counter parts.

143 As I was reading the comments here, I started to think: Corporations run commercials all the time stressing their "green" creds. How about if we start pressing them to instead stress their "community" creds? Instead of wasting money on "green" nonsense, spend it on community based organizations like job banks, soup kitchens or housing providers?

Those organizations can then take the place of the SS that will (soon enough) no longer exist. The Corporations/Companies/Wealthy individuals get recognition through self-serving commercials, media recognition (like the articles where United Way execs are shown receiving large donations now) and so on.

You can't rely on churches; how many morons here currently donate to a church-based fund to help the needy? Eliminating SS will swamp our current aid infrastructure - we need to build the infrastructure up, and expand it without getting government involved, since they'll only screw it up.

The time to act is now. Strengthening our communities is as important as stocking up on rice, beans, guns and ammo. In the end, it is our only hope to avoid having to live in a wasteland.

144 134:  Well than buy a clue:  No one is proposing to yank pensions from people drawing them.    Conservative politicians  are trying to make changes (like 45 year olds will not be able to retire at 55 after a piddling 30 years of working) that will keep public pensions solvents.    Liberals are lying about situations saying things can just go on as they are --which will result in government bankruptcy and the yanking of those pensions by default.   DAMN I wish we had widespread honesty in media that would explain this to people instead of pushing the libs line which will result in a Cloward-Piven meltdown

145 yep, Boehner is apparently that stupid, he is now hedging on the debt limit debate too.

146 I apologize, real joe, for causing you offence.  I do see your point.  I think it's important to clarify the difference between private pensions and government handouts, particularly as the former, while rare anymore, is often a contractual obligation between an employer and an employee, while the latter is a pay-as-you-go, unsecured, indefinite "benefit."

147 Seizing a private citizen's pension -- or 401(K) -- would be tantamount to theft, unless I'm completely misconstruing the mechanics of how pensions and retirement investment plans work. Yet it happens all the time. The PBGC (Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation) takes over insolvent pension funds and pays beneficiaries some portion of the benefit they would have received if their plans had remained solvent. However, the PBGC is funded by -- among other things -- taxes. Thus even many private pension plans have been foisted off onto the government because the company itself went broke. GM and Chrysler were bailed out at least in part because the PBGC would have imploded from the weight of GM/Chrysler pension debt. But in a real sense, the PBGC "seizes" your pension that then determines what fraction of your payout you will actually receive. (Generally a small fraction of the promised amount.) And of course there are pension funds that simply go bust, and beneficiaries are out the money. Period. This is the almost-inevitable fate of most defined-benefit plans, actually, whether public or private.

148 You can't rely on churches; how many morons here currently donate to a church-based fund to help the needy?

Raises hand.

149 Sports teams are a business?  I thought they were something that was out there to entertain the masses and the players should get all the money while the owners were simply slave owners abusing their 'players' and hoarding all the profits.

150 Posted by: Andy at April 26, 2011 11:21 AM (5Rurq)

In the private sector they've almost completely stopped contributing to anyone's pension.  You can still contribute but they don't.  And they don't pay for those nice money managers that local, state and federal employees have access to.  You are literally on your own if you work the private sector.  And, if you aren't a partner or CEO or big dog in the company, you aren't getting raises either.  If you did get a raise you got it this year for the first time and that was after they cut your salary so you are now back to making what you made when the mess happened. 

I have been learning about all the little perks the local, state and federal employees have.  Like not having to pay state taxes and not having to contribute to social security and having the best medical insurance in the world, courtesy of US.  I hear my angry mom talk about how thirty years ago the loser stoners went into public service cause they couldn't get a job in the private sector and now they are on top, making better money, courtesy of all the GWB, BO raises for "public servants" and those who worked for the last thirty years in the private sector are either losing their job, don't have enough of a pension to retire or haven't gotten a raise and are working 24/7, 365, coming in early, leaving late, just to make sure they keep their job.   No, you public employees need to suck it up and take a cut in your million dollar plus pensions.  Everyone else has been suffering and you guys are fine.  DC housing market is going gang busters.  You haven't felt the effects of the mess at all, in fact, you've benefited from it and you have a hell of a nerve demanding that your pensions et al be kept in tact when everyone else has been wholly screwed.

151 worked 30 years in a mind-numbing job at a salary lower than I could have earned on the outside Man, if only I had a nickel for every public employee I've heard say this. It's bullshit, and has been for at least two decades, but still the myth persists. Benefits count as compensation. If you count in your benefits, you made more than most private-sector workers do. And not by a little, but by a lot.

152 So you think it's ok to seize MY property? Where do you get that right,. looter?

Hah! YOUR property?  You spent YOUR property, profligate.  It's gone.  It went into bridges, roads, and free needles for drug users. 

What you are trying to do is grab the property of someone else to replace the money you pissed away.  Sorry buddy, it ain't their fault.  You can't grab your neighbor's TV set because yours got stolen.

153 Doom? Only my hairdresser knows for sure.

154 The time to act is now. Strengthening our communities is as important as stocking up on rice, beans, guns and ammo. In the end, it is our only hope to avoid having to live in a wasteland.

Posted by: Josef K. at April 26, 2011 11:25 AM (7+pP9)

And thanks to the breakdown of the traditional family, it's harder than ever.  Thank God for flyover country, that's all I'm saying.  When the implosion hits, I'm hightailing it for the Dakotas.  The northeast will be a Road Warrior hellhole.  Worse, it'll be a cold hellhole. 

155 Susan Collins is already on-record as being against the plan. Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 26, 2011 09:35 AM (170sK) 2012 is just around the corner. Look for Collins and Snowe to switch sides, if they're primaried.

156 2012 is just around the corner. Look for Collins and Snowe to switch sides, if they're primaried.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 26, 2011 11:31 AM (mHQ7T)

So they'll become Republicans then?

157 Ref "why tax at all if deficits don't matter". Yeah. Instead of income tax you would finance the govt. via inflation. Everybody pays! I thought of this a few decades ago and decided that, while it's a technically workable idea, it the real world it's not a good idea because, without the direct impact of taxes, there's not enough feedback between the electors and the congress to hold back spending. That's before the thought of non-taxpaying voters outnumbering taxpaying voters changed from a crazy idea to current reality.

158 I'm still upset that BO took GM and essentially handed it over to the unions to preserve their pensions and benefits and essentially screwed all the little old lady bond holders calling them greedy.  That was just plain wrong.

159 Really? what job was that? In Washington the Government Class Employees make more than their private counter parts.

That is probably a recent phenomenon. I was a professional working for a county in NY. For years I observed my private sector counterparts making way more money than I did, they drove Benzes while I was in a 15 year old Chrysler, and I could only look forward to the pension in my future. Now that the economy sucks, my friends on the outside all think I was a genius... all it came down to was the choice I made a long time ago, luck and timing.
Palerider, I have worked since I was 12, and I am still working. The pension is a godsend, given my health issues at this point in my life.
I am sorry I wasn't clearer in my original post, but this issue is sensitive.

160 If you think it will just be difficult and not impossible to convince people like real Joe, look at the wailing when there was no COLA for SS benefits last year. You would have thought you were discussing a home invasion robbery.

161 2012 is just around the corner. Look for Collins and Snowe to switch sides, if they're primaried. Meh. I don't see it. Scott Brown and the Two Ladies from Maine(tm) are about as Republican as politicians get in New England (though there are some interesting tremors coming out of New Hampshire), and they're almost certain to thumbs-down the Ryan budget plan. In any other region, they'd be Democrats.

162 What you are trying to do is grab the property of someone else to replace the money you pissed away.  Sorry buddy, it ain't their fault.  You can't grab your neighbor's TV set because yours got stolen.

You are clueless, pal. You don't know what you are talking about.

163 148 You can't rely on churches; how many morons here currently donate to a church-based fund to help the needy?

Raises hand.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 26, 2011 11:27 AM (IXLvN)

Good for you, Guy. My point was not to insult, but to illustrate that, even in a community (the DOOM subset of morons) where everyone knows what is coming down the tracks, participation in community based services is abysmally infrequent.

We have all read that private charity will have to replace SS, but in real life, every organization I know of limps by from day to day, with inadequate funding, not enough volunteers, etc.

I don't have all the answers, but I suspect that when SS dies. so will millions of people. Private charity just will not suffice.

Further, I look for riots and looting on a major scale. We may all be armed, but how many of us live in a sturdy house with clear fields of fire and  enough adults in it to operate sentries on a shift basis 24/7/365? Not many. Look for home invasions to skyrocket, and not always with the results we'd like.

I think the word is DOOM.

164 Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 11:34 AM (IpIBJ)

In the private sector everyone is an "at will" employee.  So they can tell you they are no longer doing something, effective such and such a date and that's it they aren't doing it and you are lucky to have a job.

In the public sector and among all union labor, they want guarantees that all their perks are there funded by a public who has lost any perks and are happy to have jobs.  They see not a single public or union eployee suffering through any of this at all, all the suffering and job losing has gone on in the private sector.  Private sector people were being fired and the government was furiously adding jobs, look it up the numbers support it.  It's an unfairness that smacks you in the face twice and people are starting to realize this and get really really upset about it.

165

I'm a gov't employee (provided I get to keep my job, which is still very much in doubt), but I fully expect to work till I'm dead (which, with Obamacare, will probably be sooner that it would otherwise have been; but I digress).  That's honestly okay with me.  I pay into a retirement account and social security, but I know that money is as ephemeral as smoke, especially when state and/or federal budgets are in jeopardy. 

So it annoys the living hell out of me that my fellow public employees bitch and moan about their "right" to this, that or the other thing.  No, you have a right to what the taxpaying public SAYS you have a right to.  I don't know why my colleagues (I use the term very loosely) can't seem to grasp that very simple concept.  Considering we, too, pay taxes, I'd think we'd want to be a little more discerning about who we work with.  I'd rather work with someone who knows they have to earn their paycheck to keep it than someone who thinks they should get their paycheck regardless of what they do.

166

OT: kind of a cool video of B 17 The Liberty Bell making a stop in Seattle. No he didn't bomb us.

http://tinyurl.com/3gbt8ta

 

167

Harry Reid to use R budget to divide Senate R conference:

"The idea is to drive a wedge through the GOP caucus and put vulnerable incumbents such as Sens. Scott Brown (R-Mass.) and Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) in a political jam.

Senate Democrats felt encouraged Friday after Sen. Susan Collins (Maine) emerged as the first Senate Republican to publicly oppose the House-passed budget blueprint...

'The Senate Republicans have no interest whatsoever in owning the details of that proposal,' said a Senate Democratic aide. 'I’d be surprised if they want to put their members on the record, especially those on the record as supporting that budget.'”

Mitch McConnell has not yet asked for a vote on TPTP.

168 160 If you think it will just be difficult and not impossible to convince people like real Joe, look at the wailing when there was no COLA for SS benefits last year. You would have thought you were discussing a home invasion robbery.

WTF is that supposed to mean? You don't think working 30 years for a pension gives anyone a vested right? You are ok with the state taking that away to redistribute to someone who didn't earn it?
I guess conservative principles can be disposed of when they become inconvenient.

169 He reflects poorly on his son. Posted by: MWR at April 26, 2011 09:46 AM (4df7R) They're cut from the same antisemite, conspiracy nut, isolationist cloth. Rand Paul ran with his father's old campaign staff to reinforce the urban legend that Ron Paul started the tea party.

170 I love it when you guys say "the little old lady GM bondholders" because that really is true - my 95-year-old grandmother is constantly bitching about losing her shirt on her GM bonds. ha ha ha ha (she's a lifelong Democrat)

171

OT

Allen West, once again dropping the thermonuclear warhead of truth. I really, really like this guy.

172 "I thought of this a few decades ago and decided that, while it's a technically workable idea, it the real world it's not a good idea because, without the direct impact of taxes, there's not enough feedback between the electors and the congress to hold back spending. " Without the ability to tinker with the tax code to pick winners and losers, seats in congress will be worth a hell of a lot less to the venal fucks that infest the place now.

173

Utterly apropos of nothing, but you know what our government really needs?  Gurkas; the human equivalent of the honey badger. 

That is all.

174 You are clueless, pal. You don't know what you are talking about. Oh, I think he knows quite well, as does everyone else who's going to be on the hook for paying off these stupid "promises" of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. How else can you interpret it? They're clearly and obviously unsustainable, and any shortfalls are going to have to be made on the backs of current and future taxpayers (i.e., young people). And most of these taxpayers weren't even born yet when these ridiculous programs were implemented. So how exactly is it fair or moral to make them pay for these unsustainable catastrophes? The generational war is getting underway, and it will cut across party lines. I feel badly for elderly folks who through no fault of their own are having hard economic times, but I have absolutely no intention of going into indentured servitude just so grammy and grampy can continue taking the RV to Arizona every winter. That's the truly wonderful thing about this entitlement fight we're in, you know. I don't have to rely on the political process to solve it. Math will solve it for me. All I have to do is wait it out, and the situation will take care of itself in a few years.

175

Allen West, once again dropping the thermonuclear warhead of truth. I really, really like this guy.

Posted by: maddogg at April 26, 2011 11:43 AM (OlN4e)

I would totally be for cloning Allen West, if I weren't anti-cloning.  We need more of him.

176 I really like the way you said that, Monty. PS - in the intragen War that is to come, PA is going to be a real bloodbath. LOTS of gov't retirees here, where their pensions aren't taxes. Oh it's gonna be ugly.

177 "where their pensions aren't TAXES" damn me

178 Holy crud - "aren't TAXED" wtf? I'm going back to bed

179 i wonder how many of the people who put down organized religion will be too proud to accept help that people who belong to organized religions and donate their time and talent to organized religion provide.....

180 WTF is that supposed to mean? You don't think working 30 years for a pension gives anyone a vested right? You are ok with the state taking that away to redistribute to someone who didn't earn it?
I guess conservative principles can be disposed of when they become inconvenient.

Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 11:42 AM (IpIBJ)

I don't have a problem with you getting everything you were promised, IF you would have made sure that the people you elected for the last 30 years had made the contributions they were supposed to make instead of using the money promised to you to buy votes funding feel good programs.

I do have a problem with the thought that it is all eveyone's problem now instead of yours and those who spent your money. We don't get a do over in the private sector and we don't feel like lining up to give the Government Class one either.

At least I don't.

181 Posted by: BlackOrchid at April 26, 2011 11:43 AM (SB0V2)

I only say that cause I know two of my friend's grams who were told "buy GM bonds, GM is such a solid company and if you put your money there you never have to ever worry about it".  It is truly sad.

182 PS - in the intragen War that is to come, PA is going to be a real bloodbath.

LOTS of gov't retirees here, where their pensions aren't taxes. Oh it's gonna be ugly.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at April 26, 2011 11:46 AM (SB0V2)

Come up to Luzerne County. Ultramarine blue and ignorant as hell. The War of Southern Impertinence is going to look like a pillow fight.

183 and i wonder how many people who don't belong to an organized religion actually donate to facilities that help the needy.......

184 They gave us the same scare mongering when we went through welfare reform. Rioting and dead or starving babies in the street. That said , eventually some of the reform just distributed under a different name.

185 You are clueless, pal. You don't know what you are talking about.

Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 11:38 AM (IpIBJ)

Let me take a guess and you can tell me how clueless I am - You are involved in a government pension.  It's very soon to be insolvent, and so, like what happens in the private sector, pretty soon benefits are going to need to be cut.  You are upset about this, and believe that cutting benefits is tantamount to confiscating your money.

Even though the pension is out of money.

186 Thank you Monty.  I simply can't start my day without a big Cup 'O Doom.

187 Again, Monty, sorry I wasn't clear, I was talking about an earned, vested pension, not an entitlement program. If you want to use me as a strawman, that's your right, you have the bully pulpit here.

188 187 and i wonder how many people who don't belong to an organized religion actually donate to facilities that help the needy.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at April 26, 2011 11:49 AM (eOXTH)

A tiny fraction of all the non-religious who will show up and demand benefits, claiming the religious are hypocrites if they aren't accommodated immediately.

189 Come up to Luzerne County. Ultramarine blue and ignorant as hell. The War of Southern Impertinence is going to look like a pillow fight.

I'm not too far away, but I'm in Blood Raven red Lebanon County. 

190

Posted by: mpfs at April 26, 2011 11:51 AM (iYbLN)

Monty does not deal in cups.....he doles out the DOOM in a 42 gallon oil field barrels.

191 Hey I gotta an idea. We will mine the home equity market to reinflate the dotcom bust by giving anyone a $500,000 line of credit for a house!  This will also make those cranky CBC guys go along with Welfare Reform. I'm a genius.

192 NY's pension system is not insolvent, so again, Bevel, you are incorrect.
There is no question, pension and entitlement programs need reform. But it should be applied to those entering the system, not on those who have already been through it.
If we can get the marxist douchebag out of office and revive the economy, none of this will be an issue anymore.

193 jails are filling up with people who can't post bail because they have no equity in their home......

194

From USA Today, a poll comparing "Ryan's" plan with Obama's:

"Nearly three-fourths of those surveyed, 71%, worry that the Democrats’ plan “won’t go far enough to fix the problem”; 62% fear they might use the deficit as an excuse to raise taxes.

Nearly two-thirds, 64%, fear the Republicans’ deficit plan will take away needed protections for the poor and the disadvantaged and will “protect the rich at the expense of everyone else.”

By more than 3-to-1, those surveyed say the deficit stems from too much spending, rather than too little tax revenue.

When it comes to solving the deficit problem, about half of Americans, 48%, want to do it entirely or mostly with spending cuts. Some 37% support an equal mix of spending cuts and tax increases; 11% prefer mostly tax hikes."

The article mentions people are worried that The Path to Prosperity cuts too much from Medicare and Social Security. (Which it doesn't prescribe a specific SS fix.) However, (mostly) good news:

"Republicans hold a 12-%-point edge over Democrats as the party better able to handle the budget, and a 5-point edge on the economy in general. On a list of six issues, Democrats hold a narrow advantage only in handling health care."

195 188 They gave us the same scare mongering when we went through welfare reform. Rioting and dead or starving babies in the street.

Yes, like the boy who cried wolf. Unfortunately, there is going to be a world of difference between the "reforms" of the past and actually cutting off SS.

The potential for violence and lawlessness is very real - especially if the "Cut the old bastards off NOW!" crowd has their way. A certain amount of death and destruction will be inevitable - the only question is how much.

196

Re: silver prices. Something that's making the rounds on the gun blogs this morning.

It is cheaper to feed the werewolves.

197

Nearly two-thirds, 64%, fear the Republicans’ deficit plan will take away needed protections for the poor and the disadvantaged and will “protect the rich at the expense of everyone else.”

By more than 3-to-1, those surveyed say the deficit stems from too much spending, rather than too little tax revenue.

Hi there!

198 2012 is just around the corner. Look for Collins and Snowe to switch sides, if they're primaried. Snowe is up in 2012; Collins isnÂ’t up until 2014. (As far as I know, no two senators from the same state have the same reelection year, barring temporary appointments.)

199 Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 11:55 AM (IpIBJ)

I do not know a single NY teacher not pulling down a million dollar pension, not a single one and I know a lot of retired teachers.  My poor parents are wondering how they are ever going to retire and these fu kers are living high on the hog and laughing.

200 Again, Monty, sorry I wasn't clear, I was talking about an earned, vested pension, not an entitlement program. If you're a government worker, your pension is probably only 1/3 or less funded by contributions. The rest comes out of taxes. (And if you're a state or municipal employee, the pension funds are a wreck.) So whatever applies to SS applies double to you. (And if you are eligible for SS payments in addition to your pension, it goes triple.) Private pensions, as I said before, are only partially covered by the PBGC; many are not covered at all. But public employee pensions are usually protected by law, and backed by the tax-power of the sovereign. You can do the math yourself, you know. Just figure out how much you've contributed over the years (and be honest -- most people dramatically overestimate how much they've actually saved). My guess is that your actual contributions, adjusted for inflation, would cover less than 5 years of retirement. Everything after that comes from money taxed out of strangers who had no say in the deal you made with the government way back when you started working.

201 Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 11:55 AM (IpIBJ)

By generally accepted accounting methods it is absolutely insolvent. According to the pipe dreams of government lackeys? They don't discuss insolvency, they only point out that state revenue is sufficient to pay the current pensions.

202 well Monty you'll be happy to know that because of your DOOM-athon, I converted my Roth IRA equity holdings into cash & bonds
I am actually pretty scared about what Bernanke will say tomorrow, I fear it will be another 1000+ point plunge for the markets

203

If we just cut foreign aid and defense spending we could balance the budget!

204 Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 26, 2011 11:57 AM (170sK)

So, you're basically saying that the poll shows that everyone believes the hype.

205

Don't worry, real joe, there'll be some compromise where you won't receive a cut in the number of dollars you receive in pension. Your pension is indexed to the inflation rate, right?  You know, the one that excludes food and energy.

The states and municipalites will be bailed out in the end and the Federal government will find the money somewhere... say at the end of that printing press there.  Don't call it "printing money", though, call it "Quatitative Easing"  it sounds so much nicer, doesn't it?

So, who's up for a little dog food?  I'm afraid all we can afford this week is Sam's Choice dry.

206

Real joe,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but according to Bloomberg New Yorks pension is $71 Billion underfunded.

You fucked up, you trusted them.

http://tinyurl.com/22uam85

 

207

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but according to Bloomberg New Yorks pension is $71 Billion underfunded.

 

I blame big Oil and speculators. I have no idea why.If this doesn't fly, I'l drop back ten and blame Booooosh.

208 I am actually pretty scared about what Bernanke will say tomorrow, I fear it will be another 1000+ point plunge for the markets

I'm not so worried about what he'll say (he'll probably spout off a bunch of platitudes about believing in a "strong dollar" but yet "the recovery" isn't strong enough to start reining all the dollars out there), I'm worried about what he'll do shortly after.

If he sends his fleet of helicopters to rain more paper down from the skies...we're utterly and truly boned then. 

209 NY's pension system is not insolvent, so again, Bevel, you are incorrect.

If that's the case, what's the problem?  I would tend to believe that if people are saying that the government is going to take your pension away because of budget shortfalls, what that really means is that they spent that money years ago and left a bunch of IOUs there.

If we can get the marxist douchebag out of office and revive the economy, none of this will be an issue anymore.

I'm afraid we are in the new normal until the entitlement issue and deficits are dealt with.  Inevitably, the government is going to try to fix this by raising taxes (probably through the backdoor by increasing how much we spend in social security) because Democrats won't cut benefits and Republicans have men like John Boehner negotiating for them.

210

Easy problem to solve. Riase taxes!

Posted by: Pat Quinn (D-Dumbass)

 

Wait one. I have a boat to move first.

211 >>NY's pension system is not insolvent, so again, Bevel, you are incorrect. It may not be insolvent but it is severely underfunded which is why the NY tried to pull the shell game of borrowing $6 billion last summer to pay to make payment to beneficiaries. The simple fact is the state of NY negotiated a contract with the unions that they should have known they would never be able to honor. So the choice comes down to you, the pensioners, taking a haircut or the taxpayers being on the hook for even more wealth transfers to fund you. You can make your case for increased taxes on the public but I don't think you're going to get much of a sympathetic audience here.

212

210 So, you're basically saying that the poll shows that everyone believes the hype.

They do but they don't. I'm not sure whether they trust the Republicans more because they cut spending more or what exactly. The good thing is that proper education by the Republicans might be able to lower that 64% number, especially considering that the line about Medicare seeing no immediate change earns bipartisan support. So if voters were made to understand that mandatory spending is the problem and were also told the details of the actual plan, how would those numbers look?

213 I hate to be the bearer of bad news but according to Bloomberg New Yorks pension is $71 Billion underfunded. Shit, every state in the Union is boned (except for maybe North Dakota). Large municipalities are going to default next year, I'm betting -- my money is on L.A., San Fran, or Chicago. And they'll turn to the state for help, who'll turn out their pockets and turn to Uncle Sugar for a bailout. Many states have exhausted every budget-trick they can think of in the last couple of years -- plus all the stimulus money -- just to keep the wolves from the door. But the trick-bag is empty and the stimulus funds have dried up.

214

My children would like a word with your logic.

Oh, it's for the children. I guess Obama could take your house and 401k - someone's children need it.

Look buddy, I have a IRA and House that I pay for as well as paying for your SS and Medicare benefits.

Don't get bitchy with those of us who pay your freaking bills and are expected to do so for the rest of our lives.

It's a ponzi scheme that everyone knows is a ponzi sceme, the only difference is that instead of fulling suckers into investing, the state forces me to do so by the threat of imprisonment.

215

They do but they don't. I'm not sure whether they trust the Republicans more because they cut spending more or what exactly. The good thing is that proper education by the Republicans might be able to lower that 64% number, especially considering that the line about Medicare seeing no immediate change earns bipartisan support. So if voters were made to understand that mandatory spending is the problem and were also told the details of the actual plan, how would those numbers look?

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 26, 2011 12:13 PM (170sK)

But, that won't happen because the R's aren't shouting the truth from the rooftops for some reason and the D's are lying through their teeth about it and no one is calling them out on it.  We'd be fine if the R's would grow a pair.......

216 Damn Italics fail......

217 Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 26, 2011 11:57 AM (170sK)

Those are excellent poll numbers.  Some less than stellar results, but much much better than I expected .

218 My gosh, this is great.  What I take away from reading this is that you need to work until you're physically incapable of further effort, then kill yourself.  Obviouslt, Gov't pensions are bankrupt, private pensions are prone to dissolve because the company goes under, so the idea of providing for retirement matters not one fucking whit.

  I sure am glad to see this at my early retirement age, saves a ton of uncertainty.

  Great job, guys.

219 NY's pension system is not insolvent, so again, Bevel, you are incorrect.
There is no question, pension and entitlement programs need reform. But it should be applied to those entering the system, not on those who have already been through it.
If we can get the marxist douchebag out of office and revive the economy, none of this will be an issue anymore.

Posted by: real joe

 

What the fuck do you mean, It isn't insolvent? If I'm paying off my Amex card with my Visa card, for the sole reason that I do NOT have the cash to meet my obligations, then I'm insolvent. I haven't been caught yet. They have to restructure either the obligations or the revenue stream to meet those obligations or both.

 

220 And they'll turn to the state for help, who'll turn out their pockets and turn to Uncle Sugar for a bailout. Many states have exhausted every budget-trick they can think of in the last couple of years -- plus all the stimulus money -- just to keep the wolves from the door. But the trick-bag is empty and the stimulus funds have dried up.

Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 12:13 PM (/0a60)

Illinois raised taxes 60% + in some cases, so I am just watching that place to see how long it takes to go belly up.  I used to live there, still have family there, but hate it with such a passion that I can't WAIT for it to melt down.  It HAS to happen so these lib dumbasses can actually SEE that their socialist utopia doesn't exist and can't ever happen. 

221 Only Paul Mall, I mean Foul Ball, I mean Monty Hall, I mean RON PAUL can save us now!!

222 wow this is OT, but I just want to say i'm ofically banning HA from my computer; I have totally blocked it from being able to go on it. I kept giving them a chance even in my hatred of them but the commenters reactions to that Coke story was the nail on the coffin for me. I'm not saying Coke was right but to start calling for boycotts and start running to Pepsi lol they're too predictable

223 But, that won't happen because the R's aren't shouting the truth from the rooftops for some reason

If a Republican shouts in the forest and the MSM refuses to cover him, does he make a sound?

224

My gosh, this is great.  What I take away from reading this is that you need to work until you're physically incapable of further effort, then kill yourself. 

 

What I take away from this is that you hurt yourself trying to read the English language.

225 RIP Pheobe Snow, dead at 58 from brain hemorrhage. 

226

If I'm paying off my Amex card with my Visa card,

And cue Joe Biden with brilliant new administration initiative.

227 Wait a minute!  I think  I see a way out of this mess!

228
Y'all go buy gold. I'm gonna buy toilet paper. Can you wipe your ass with gold?

229

Veronique de Rugy: "Tax Progressivity & More"

Andrew Stiles: "Debt Ceiling Strategy"

Andrew Stiles: "Who Said It?" (passage RE entitlements)

"Generous benefits for the elderly are feasible as long as there are relatively few retirees compared with the number of taxpaying workers — which is the current situation, because the baby boomers swell the workforce. In 2010, however, the boomers will begin to retire. Every year thereafter, for the next quarter-century, several million 65-year-olds will leave the rolls of taxpayers and begin claiming their benefits..."   

230

#222 Ben,

"It's a ponzi scheme that everyone knows is a ponzi sceme, the only difference is that instead of fulling suckers into investing, the state forces me to do so by the threat of imprisonment."

I am so glad that I had the education I had about SS and knew not to rely on it. Of course that did not exempt me from paying SS/MED since 1960.

231

What I take away from this is that you hurt yourself trying to read the English language.

Posted by: Sen Kerry (D-Cambodia) at April 26, 2011 12:21 PM (6rX0K)

That's rich, coming from you, oh master of the English language. 

232

I mean Monty Hall

I'll take what's inside the refrigerator Jay is holding.

233

My gosh, this is great.  What I take away from reading this is that you need to work until you're physically incapable of further effort, then kill yourself.  Obviouslt, Gov't pensions are bankrupt, private pensions are prone to dissolve because the company goes under, so the idea of providing for retirement matters not one fucking whit.

  I sure am glad to see this at my early retirement age, saves a ton of uncertainty.

  Great job, guys.

Yes and no. You have to work until you are physically unable to work, unless you saved enough money to retire.

This has been the way of man throughout all of history, why do you think it would work otherwise?

234 Illinois raised taxes 60% + in some cases, so I am just watching that place to see how long it takes to go belly up.  I used to live there, still have family there, but hate it with such a passion that I can't WAIT for it to melt down.  It HAS to happen so these lib dumbasses can actually SEE that their socialist utopia doesn't exist and can't ever happen. 

Posted by: © Spong

 

If they wish to observe and learn, they can examine California. Or New York. Both are already regarded as being hostile to business, and both are losing jobs. And yet both are ignored.

235

I am so glad that I had the education I had about SS and knew not to rely on it. Of course that did not exempt me from paying SS/MED since 1960

I agree, buy can you knowingly say to me that you know its a ponzi scheme, you got screwed and it's morally right for me to be screwed too?

I, like Monty, am truly sorry that everyone here had had to pay FICA taxes their entire lives, but since we all agree it is going to bankrupt us, then how can you say we should continue?

 

236

Yes and no. You have to work until you are physically unable to work, unless you saved enough money to retire.

This has been the way of man throughout all of history, why do you think it would work otherwise?

Posted by: Ben at April 26, 2011 12:25 PM (wuv1c)

The HELL you say!!!!  

237 DOOM? You're soaking in it!

I'm from California. At this point, the denial is gone, the anger has subsided, attempts to correct the issue abandoned, sadness eased, and we are ready to kick back in lawn chairs, light up a cigar, and enjoy front row seats for the epic fall of Western Civilization.

Soaking in DOOM you say? Well how about turning the bubbles on then?

238

And I am serious about running for President...but first, I have to fire Gary Busey from a television show.

Thread winner.

239 I'm growing tired of the fucking italics button that refuses to fucking work.

240

What I take away from this is that you hurt yourself trying to read the English language.

Posted by: Sen Kerry (D-Cambodia) at April 26, 2011 12:21 PM (6rX0K)

That's rich, coming from you, oh master of the English language. 

Posted by: © Sponge

Yeah, but I can gibber like an ape and get away with it. Tuhyraaaza hasn't kicked me to the curb yet, and I can tool around on the S.S. Deadbeat. And there's always the United States Senate if I'm bored.

241 @72 >> Older Americans, for the most part, worked paid a tax for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them a government that lied to them when they called it a contribution to a retirement plan.

Certain Americans my parent's age spent the last 40 years gleefully aborting inconvenient babies which are the only form of wealth that makes government ponzi schemes work, and now expect the ghosts of their unborn children to support them in their dotage.  If retirement benefits were based on your children's income, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

242

#247

I'm not advocating continuing but the cuts that have to be made have to be across the board or no one will accept it.

243 31 Things have now changed but to snatch it away from old folks at this stage of their lives would leave most with nothing to do but die.

Citation, please.

In other words: bullshit and more bullshit. Seniors, as a group, are the wealthiest segment of American society. Far less than 10% would be in the dire straits you speak of, and provisions could be made for them.

Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 09:48 AM (/0a60)

Furthermore, to do nothing will put everyone in the shitter.

244 My gosh, this is great. What I take away from reading this is that you need to work until you're physically incapable of further effort, then kill yourself. Obviouslt, Gov't pensions are bankrupt, private pensions are prone to dissolve because the company goes under, so the idea of providing for retirement matters not one fucking whit. The problem is our society. We went from an understanding that you worked until the last year or two of life. There was never a compact that you could take a twenty-or-thirty-year vacation in your old age. Nor was there a compact that you could sit in college until you were 25 or 30 years of age before beginning your productive working years. The idea that you could simply "retire" at 65 or so is a modern conceit, and it's turning out to be untenable.

245

224 But, that won't happen because the R's aren't shouting the truth from the rooftops for some reason and the D's are lying through their teeth about it and no one is calling them out on it.  We'd be fine if the R's would grow a pair.......

Some of them are telling the truth about it, but others are too frightened to say anything. The ones who refuse to say anything need to realize they're playing into the narrative by only gingerly discussing the Republican plan. It's not like they weren't educated on how to answer questions, either, so any claim of ignorance rings hollow. If the conference was more united, they would have a better chance of dragging the discussion further right and make an impact on younger workers while reassuring seniors. It's still a long-shot but they need to try.

246

The sum of all personal income in US is about $5.6 Trillion.  So if government confiscates it all(trusting the feds, states and local parasites to stop at 100%) we'd basically balance the budgets.

'Course we'd be screwed all over again if interest rates double.

247 One suggestion? Eliminate the property tax, everywhere, at all levels of government.

Nothing bankrupts the elderly like constantly-increasing property taxes. Without them, many elderly might be able to eke out a living from savings and maybe taking in family - or even boarders.

Just a thought. If we're going to eliminate SS, we are going to have to get creative in how we minimize the disruption to society that will surely occur.

248 256 31 Things have now changed but to snatch it away from old folks at this stage of their lives would leave most with nothing to do but die.

Citation, please.

In other words: bullshit and more bullshit. Seniors, as a group, are the wealthiest segment of American society. Far less than 10% would be in the dire straits you speak of, and provisions could be made for them.

Posted by: Monty at April 26, 2011 09:48 AM (/0a60)

Furthermore, to do nothing will put everyone in the shitter.

Additionally, you have the head of a chicken.

249 Certain Americans my parent's age spent the last 40 years gleefully aborting inconvenient babies which are the only form of wealth that makes government ponzi schemes work, and now expect the ghosts of their unborn children to support them in their dotage.  If retirement benefits were based on your children's income, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Posted by: sum(random) at April 26, 2011 12:29 PM (mkBiv)

But, if my daughters make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby!!!

250

All we need to do is what we've already done to veterans. Several promises were made to them ( medical care for them and their dependants, full military honors at funerals), only to be broken with the reason given: we don't have the resources; there's been a change. But those changes were done to a group that on average has the most loyalty to this country, and the least likely to revolt ( Yes, I'm aware of the bonus army marchers).

251
These threads are best described as:

a) Academic
b) Esoteric
c) Histrionic

252

The sum of all personal income in US is about $5.6 Trillion.  So if government confiscates it all(trusting the feds, states and local parasites to stop at 100%) we'd basically balance the budgets.

'Course we'd be screwed all over again if interest rates double.

Posted by: gary gulrud

 

That's budget. That solution will work once.There's still the little problem of where does the monster get its food the next year?

253

Additionally, you have the head of a chicken.

Posted by: Minuteman

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

254

The problem is our society. We went from an understanding that you worked until the last year or two of life. There was never a compact that you could take a twenty-or-thirty-year vacation in your old age. Nor was there a compact that you could sit in college until you were 25 or 30 years of age before beginning your productive working years. The idea that you could simply "retire" at 65 or so is a modern conceit, and it's turning out to be untenable.

but the tv promised me my golden years at The Villages, America's friendliest hometown.

I demand a golf cart upon retirement.

Also, you mean some technocrat in the 1930s who randomly decided on the age 65 couldn't change the course of human history and reality?

255   So, Senator Kerry, how 'bout you go suck a syphilitic cock?

  Was there any difficulty reading that segment of the English language?

256 Great job, guys.

*ahem* it wasn't my generation that lit the fuse on this fiscal bomb. That would have been done in the 60's and 70's.

257 also, i'm not blaming older people. it's not your fault the system is set up this way, however things are gonna change, it's going to affect you and there is no getting around it or wishing it away.

258 I understand what real joe is saying, he made his choice and believes its a promise that can and should be kept.  The problem is that we are saying that the simple math does not work and cannot work when the various govts have overpromised what they can get from taxpayers, ex - govt workers, the truly needy and the slackers now exceed the number of private sector taxpayers in society.

So we have three poisons to use raise taxes significantly on everybody, cut benefits significantly, issue more govt debt (hidden inflation tax on everybody).  We can choose one or mix and match, either way not choosing means reality will eventually choose for us (which probably means a currency collapse). 

259 Over the last year, only one city has seen home prices rise. Anybody want to guess what that city is?

260 Reforming SS and other entitlements  will be akin to picking up a turd by it's clean end.

261 67 Older Americans love their benefits, no matter how unsustainable or ruinous to the nation's finances, and will fight to keep them regardless of party affiliation.

Older Americans, for the most part, worked for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them.

Posted by: real joe at April 26, 2011 10:21 AM (IpIBJ)

Dude, math is a lot like me.  When the government is broke and the treasury is at zero, math don't give a shit.

262 The problem is simple.  Remember back in the 60's, 70's and 80's when sane people said the government was stealing the wealth of their children and pissing it away on a welfare state?  They were right.  Those wastrel bastards spent us into debt and set up this structure of entitlements and now we are boned.  We are trying to do the same thing to our children but it isn't working; the game is over, the math is going to win.  The only nice thing about it is a good number of those wastrel bastards are still around and living on government retirement plans that are doomed, so a good number are living to reap what they sowed as flower children.

Mathematically it is still possible to save our civilization.  Politically it almost certainly can't happen before the math does become irreversible.  But right now we don't have a problem that a +50% burst of GDP growth over the next decade wouldn't allow us to pull out of and that wouldn't be too hard to generate.... without Obama, Reid, Pelosi and their media wing.

263

FAWN HALL!!!

RICHARD MOLL!!

CHARLES DEGAULLE!!!

264   263 Certain Americans my parent's age spent the last 40 years gleefully aborting inconvenient babies which are the only form of wealth that makes government ponzi schemes work, and now expect the ghosts of their unborn children to support them in their dotage.  If retirement benefits were based on your children's income, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Posted by: sum(random) at April 26, 2011 12:29 PM (mkBiv)

But, if my daughters make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby like my mama was!!!

Posted by: JEF at April 26, 2011 12:31 PM (UK9cE)

FIFY Mr. Present

265 One suggestion? Eliminate the property tax, everywhere, at all levels of government.

Agreed, but not just for the reason you you state. Property taxes are the nullification of private property rights. Make local Govts find other means of raising revenues.

266 Things have now changed but to snatch it away from old folks at this stage of their lives would leave most with nothing to do but die.

Let me speak my two cents about the above statement.

The generation who is retiring now and in the decade to come made those promises to themselves with our money never once considering how sustainable the programs would be as human life got longer, nor how sustainable they would be when their generation of boomers retired in droves with an average of 15 years to live on the public dole. And now they trumpet it is too late to change now, that we who had no say in the making of this so called commitment to the elderly, that they made to themselves without our consent, have to shoulder the whole of the sacrifices that have to be made to keep this country fiscally afloat. I think it is time for some shared sacrifice on that topic. And anyone who casually remarks that it is unfair to the elderly completely forgets their own complicity in our financial woes, and, what unfair really means; which is my generation paying to support SS our entire lives and realistically getting nothing from it unless we want to pass a horrible burden to our children.

So it comes to us, to stand up and say, it ends here. That we say we will not pass on to our children the burden our parents saddled us with. And while facing financial catastrophe, all I seem to get from the generation behind me is how they can't sacrifice anything to help.

267 Older Americans - as a group - are scared witless. They have been propagandized to a fare thee well. To expect a rational response from them is unrealistic.

I can't find 2011 numbers, but I did find a 2010 estimate (from Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt) that there were about 39.5 million seniors in 2010 (65 and over). Monty estimates 10% would need help. That means providing total assistance for almost 4 million seniors, who, presumably, currently rely on SS for all of their money. I'm afraid it will be more than that, but none of us really knows.

It may be that millions more will need some help, since SS provides for 30% or more of their money.

Don't expect these people to be rational or heroic, or stoic. Expect them to vote solidly Dem. I'm afraid the real DOOM factor is that we are going to frighten and alienate so many seniors who might otherwise vote GOP that Obama is going to cruise to re-election and we will once again see Speaker Pelosi bang her oversized gavel.

Face it. We're boned.

268 Older Americans, for the most part, worked for 30 years or more to earn those benefits, and deserve to keep them.

So they were productive for 40% of their life, so they *deserve* to be supported?

So riddle me this batman. How does a society survive when the productive only have to be so for 40% of their life? Who pays for the other 60%? Someone who will only be working for 40% of their life? That leaves 20% left over for a second productive person to take care of. And we haven't even started adding in benefits for the non productive.

The system can only survive if the person takes a substantial reduction in living standards upon retirement. Or the productive pay substantially more to support the retired than they themselves get to keep. Or each generation is substantially larger than the last.

Ponzi
Ponzi
Ponzi

269 Face it. We're boned.

Come'on in the DOOMs fine!

270

It's not China's fault that we're in the mess we're in; it's ours.

One of many things that bother me about the Trump campaign. He's all about getting tough with China, but I've heard nothing to suggest he is ready to get tough with the big spenders and the gov't benefit consumers here. Fail.

271 Scott Brown and the Two Ladies from Maine(tm) are about as Republican as politicians get in New England My Democrat governor in NY is more Republican than all three of them put together.

272 One of many things that bother me about the Trump campaign. What bothers me the most is Trump donated $50,000 to Rahm Emanuel's mayoral campaign.

273 FAWN HALL!!! RICHARD MOLL!! CHARLES DEGAULLE!!! Peeps didn't start the fire!

274 246

Can you wipe your ass with gold?

You can at the Trump Plaza...the most luxiourious resort in the world. And I am serious about running for President...but first, I have to fire Gary Busey from a television show.

Posted by: Donald Trump at April 26, 2011 12:26 PM (OWjjx)

AH, HAHAHAHAHA!

275

Posted by: Dave in Texas at April 26, 2011 09:46 AM (WvXvd)

I used to live in Texas City. I'm sure it was those losers in LaMarque who sabatoged the power system.

I hope the alarms remain only as a warning, not for a real problem in Texas City. Refineries aren't a joke when things go wrong.