December 06, 2011

Fast & Furious Cover Up Coming Apart Fast and Furious
— Ace

That document dump on Friday didn't get buried.

It's actually the wrong time for a large document dump, as all it does is give people 48 hours to skim the voluminous record and prepare to print... on Monday.

Obama can't even manage a cover-up.

It was all a lie. The angry denials, the high dudgeon, the how-dare-you accuse-us bleating emanating from Eric HolderÂ’s Justice Department these last nine months.

Operation Fast and Furious — the “botched” gun-tracking program run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives — did, in fact, deliberately allow some 2,000 high-powered weapons to be sold to Mexican drug cartel agents and then waltzed across the border and into the Mexican drug wars — just as Sen. Chuck Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, who are leading the congressional investigations, have charged all along.

That’s the conclusion we can draw from Friday night’s nearly 1,400-page document dump, which gives us a glimpse into the inner workings of the Justice Department as it struggled earlier this year to come up with an explanation for the deadly mess — and “misled” Congress.

Now the man who supervised it, Attorney General Holder, will appears before Congress again Thursday to testify in the exploding fiasco. But thereÂ’s really only one question he needs to answer: Why?

Why did Justice, the ATF and an alphabet soup of federal agencies facilitate the transfer of guns across the border — without the knowledge of Mexican authorities — when they knew they couldn’t trace them properly?

Dennis Burke, the former, now-resigned disgrace of a US Attorney for Arizona, the one who leaked documents in order to discredit a whistleblower, is revealed as a liar with an agenda in the documents:

The newly released e-mails show Dennis Burke, the since-fired US attorney in Arizona who supervised the operation, furiously pushing back against Grassley and his staff, calling them “willing stooges for the Gun Lobby.”

But everything he was denying happened did in fact happen.

One area of investigation and dispute is the authorship of a letter written to Grassley, now withdrawn due to "inaccuracies" the Justice Department has "discovered" in it. The letter was a flat denial of reality -- it lied. It claimed what happened did not in fact happen.

There were a lot of hands working on it.

The Justice Department released documents today detailing how officials prepared a Feb. 4 letter to Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) that Attorney General Eric Holder has since admitted contained false information about Operation Fast and Furious, a botched gun operation under investigation by Congress.

The documents show that Dennis Burke, then a U.S. attorney who has since resigned, and William Hoover, then the deputy director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives who has since been reassigned, principally provided the false information to officials who drafted the letter. But the documents do not shed light on whether either knew the information was false at the time.

In the Feb. 4 letter, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich broadly denied that ATF officials had allowed assault weapons to “walk,” which meant ending surveillance on weapons suspected to be en route to Mexican drug cartels, allowing the guns to escape into the wild. “ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico,” Weich wrote.

Grassley’s allegations about Fast and Furious, later revealed to be true, “are based on categorical falsehoods,” Burke wrote in a Jan. 31 email. Faith Burton, a Justice Department official who drafted an early version of the letter, took notes based on a phone conversation with Hoover that read, “ATF doesn’t let guns walk.”

Emails show Lanny Breuer, the assistant attorney general for the departmentÂ’s criminal division, received versions of the letter on four occasions via email.

Breuer forwarded the emails to a personal account but told Congressional investigators in a written statement today he “cannot say for sure” whether he viewed the drafts.

I'll be he cannot say for sure.

Now, Napolitano and Holder have both testified that they knew nothing of this beforehand, or even in the aftermath of Brian Terry's murder. They claim they didn't find out anything about this whole "Covert Operation To Smuggle 2000 High Powered Weapons To Mexican Criminals" thing until after it was brought to their attention by the media (if I'm remember right -- in any event, a long time after the shooting).

Via Sipsey Street Irregulars, Senator Grassley doubts that this claim is plausible, given that so many of their underlings knew all about it and were chatting with each other.

Note that Napolitano traveled to Arizona specifically to learn about the investigation into Brian Terry's murder. But her claim is that the local FBI and ATF bigs she met with failed to inform her that they'd been killed with US-provided guns.

If that's true, why haven't Napolitano and Holder already drawn up charges against the men who concealed this?

Bonus: Check out the New York Times' headline on an article in which the DoJ admits it provided congressional investigators with lies, or as they term them, "inaccuracies."

Posted by: Ace at 11:46 AM | Comments (329)
Post contains 872 words, total size 6 kb.

1 There were a lot of hands working on it. I have a pair of bolt cutters. It's time to start taking fingers.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 06, 2011 11:48 AM (p7SSh)

2
Fast & Furious 5: The Cover-Uppening

Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 06, 2011 11:49 AM (QMtmy)

3 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 11:52 AM (8y9MW)

4 Watergate did not have a body count.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 11:52 AM (8y9MW)

5 "The gun lobby". That's what I needed, to know what this program's target was. It was supposed to scare this country into nationwide gun bans.

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at December 06, 2011 11:53 AM (OpqT8)

6 There's blood in the water.  Even the MSM has pulled its head out of its ass and is starting to ask questions.

Posted by: al-Cicero, Tea Party Jihadist at December 06, 2011 11:53 AM (QKKT0)

7

I just got the inside track on a major part in Fast and Furious 6: The Scape Goatening

Posted by: Eric Holder at December 06, 2011 11:54 AM (/d7Qz)

8 Hey Ace,  wasn't there a video [transcript at the least] of Holder almost a year ago at a conference down in Mexico alluding to a "program to track illicit guns"?  My recollectiton is dim on this, but I'm sure there was something.  He just didn't name F&F, but did describe it somewhat.

Posted by: MikeW at December 06, 2011 11:54 AM (g4tB5)

9 But Herman Cain was 9-9-9'ing Ginger in her back nine.  What's more important, a few hundred dead Mexicans or keeping a pervert out of the White House?

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 06, 2011 11:55 AM (Hx5uv)

10 We already fired everyone responsible.  Now go away.

Posted by: Eric Holder at December 06, 2011 11:55 AM (QKKT0)

11 Hot Air featured a CBS Report about the State Department running guns to Mexico as well.  It started in 2006, but the numbers really took off in 2009.  State refuses to say how many were sent in 2010 and this year.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 11:55 AM (T2/zQ)

12 Release the hounds.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez!
This message brought to you by Morons Against HTML Abuse
 at December 06, 2011 11:55 AM (GBXon)

13 Why did Justice, the ATF and an alphabet soup of federal agencies facilitate the transfer of guns across the border — without the knowledge of Mexican authorities — when they knew they couldn’t trace them properly?

That's a very good question.  Why indeed.  It couldn't possibly be to enact ever more strict gun-control laws on United States Citizens.

<Dons tin-foil hat with special copper grounding wire>

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 11:56 AM (8y9MW)

14 Remember, there was no nefarious plot to instill tougher gun control laws, it was just a program gone bad.

Posted by: Dr Spank at December 06, 2011 11:56 AM (H/kgP)

15
First of all, NOT KNOWING is a fire-able offense.

But they knew.  They knew the whole thing.  They knew people would die.  They did not care.  They still do not care.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 06, 2011 11:56 AM (JYheX)

16
By the way, Insty has an update on how they knew gun sales to the Mexican govt were being re-directed to the cartels.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 06, 2011 11:58 AM (JYheX)

17 I have got to get a gun. My only regret is I haven't done it sooner, but you know... bills and stuff. Gotta make sure gramps gets that penis pump.

Posted by: cajun carrot at December 06, 2011 12:00 PM (zHl9z)

18 By the way, Insty has an update on how they knew gun sales to the Mexican govt were being re-directed to the cartels. These people animals used their offices--collecting a paycheck coming out of taxpayers' pockets--to arm the Mexican drug cartels. This is an abomination no matter what motivated them.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at December 06, 2011 12:00 PM (p7SSh)

19 When are we going to see some people going to jail? If Holder had been a Republican we would already have a special prosecuter.

Posted by: Vic at December 06, 2011 12:00 PM (YdQQY)

20 but but but Palin couldn't correctly summarize the 14 different versions of the Bush doctrine, so in reality, we're much better off than if McCain was elected president.

Posted by: joeindc44 at December 06, 2011 12:01 PM (QxSug)

21 Obama can't even manage a cover-up.

Obama cannot even organize an orgy in a phone booth.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 12:01 PM (84pE9)

22 It goes to 11.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:01 PM (KC2BE)

23 6 There's blood in the water.  Even the MSM has pulled its head out of its ass and is starting to ask questions.

Yeah, right.  They'll ask questions until maybe, mayyybe Holder goes down, and it'll stop there.  No way in hell Obama gets touched by this.

Posted by: chazmartel at December 06, 2011 12:01 PM (wlSqE)

24 16
By the way, Insty has an update on how they knew gun sales to the Mexican govt were being re-directed to the cartels.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 06, 2011 03:58 PM (JYheX)


That's the same report regarding the State Department.  So, in short, both State and Justice are running guns to Mexico, and attempting to destabilize the country.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 12:02 PM (T2/zQ)

25

Ace I sent you a few links earlier but Hotair did a story on some facts you might find interesting

http://tinyurl.com/74dkogs

Posted by: William Amos at December 06, 2011 12:02 PM (NTnm3)

26 It's not a lie if they really, really wished it were true.

Posted by: WalrusRex at December 06, 2011 12:02 PM (Hx5uv)

27 You know, you could have said

"Fast & Furious Cover Up Coming Apart Quickly and Fiercely."

/it doesn't hurt to consult me you know. Words are your friend!

Posted by: Thesaurus at December 06, 2011 12:03 PM (z63Tr)

28 BTW, Ace, you going to be in DC for Thursday's hearing? Mike V. is.

Maybe you two should have a beer.

Or let him buy you a beer, his diabetes means he can't have one.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:03 PM (KC2BE)

29 Hot Air featured a CBS Report about the State Department running guns to Mexico as well. It started in 2006, but the numbers really took off in 2009. State refuses to say how many were sent in 2010 and this year. Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 03:55 PM (T2/zQ) State will never say how many were sent. That is a fortress of liberal support, and they will lock arms against anyone who tries to find out what really went on. Oh, and how are you doing Baldilocks?!

Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 12:03 PM (dZmFh)

30 Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 04:03 PM (dZmFh)


Fine.  How about you?

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 12:05 PM (T2/zQ)

31 That's the same report regarding the State Department.  So, in short, both State and Justice are running guns to Mexico, and attempting to destabilize the country.

Hey, what about us? We've got some guys available!

Posted by: The U.S. Postal Service at December 06, 2011 12:05 PM (QKKT0)

32 Dennis Burke, the former, now-resigned disgrace of a US Attorney for Arizona, was on the fast track to getting Napolitano old job as governor of Arizona until this inconvenient "Fast and Furious" thing came up.

Posted by: Lanny Davis at December 06, 2011 12:05 PM (e8kgV)

33 Hate to say it, Ace, but "Reichstag Fire" is looking more and more plausible...no?

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at December 06, 2011 12:06 PM (YmPwQ)

34 My question is, how the hell is it State's AOR to be running guns in the first place? That has nothing to do with "diplomacy," and nothing to do with offering assistance to/providing passport related services to American citizens overseas, or to visas. There is no possible way this could be construed to be a part of State's purview. What the hell is Hilary doing?

Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 12:06 PM (dZmFh)

35 Release the hounds honey badgers, ewoks, hobo hunters, and kittehs.


Posted by: Basement Cat at December 06, 2011 12:07 PM (rtZbT)

36 Will we be able to pick our favorite co -conspirator before the trials begin?
Dibs on Big Sis.
I want to watch her perpwalk. That should be cute.

Posted by: Pecos, All Perry, all the time at December 06, 2011 12:07 PM (2Gb0y)

37

Grassley was pretty pissed on Greta last night. 'You can't just make a letter disappear and act like you never wrote it' because it contained lies. I think he's about out of 'benefit of the doubt' now from all the lies and stonewalling.

Posted by: Schwalbe : The Me-262© at December 06, 2011 12:07 PM (UU0OF)

38 So, in short, both State and Justice are running guns to Mexico, and attempting to destabilize the country.

Why?  Really- what does anyone on this side of the border gain by destabilizing Mexico?  Cui bono? 

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:07 PM (8y9MW)

39 No one cares about this.

Posted by: cvb at December 06, 2011 12:07 PM (HRFxR)

40 30-pretty darn good, except for this kind of stuff. It's tough on my blood pressure. I fear my doc will tell me I have to stop reading my blogs to keep it in check. I don't know which would be worse-a heart attack, or no Ace?!

Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 12:07 PM (dZmFh)

41 So on Pearl Harbor 'day', Holder and Corzine are 'testifying???Or maybe pleading the 5th?

Posted by: dw in norcal at December 06, 2011 12:08 PM (37WZ8)

42 We all know that Fast & Furious was Bush's fault. Come-on, Why are all of you so Stupid?  Duh, even Debbie Blabbermouth Schutz can figure out is was Bush's fault !!!!!!

Posted by: Wall-E at December 06, 2011 12:08 PM (48wze)

43 Suckers of Cock.

Posted by: toby928© stickin' it to THE MAN at December 06, 2011 12:08 PM (IfkGz)

44 You mean..... they effin LIED under oath?????  The deuce you say!!!!  I wonder what the consequences of THAT should be.....

Posted by: Scooter Libby - President Local Scapegoat Union #451 at December 06, 2011 12:08 PM (C8hzL)

45 No one cares about this

Fuck you. I do.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:09 PM (KC2BE)

46 Damn, when we get topless protesters it's the fat ugly hipsters or 60 year old hippies

Look what kind of topless protesting they get in The Ukraine


Posted by: kbdabear at December 06, 2011 12:09 PM (Y+DPZ)

47 MikeW

Here's the vid you're thinking of, from 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc

Posted by: josh at December 06, 2011 12:09 PM (ligUZ)

48 OT AoSHQ: Please tell me you're going to cover this: http://tinyurl.com/7edkny2 Gateway Pundit link. Jay Carney asked, sorta, about Obama's rumored obsession with "musty wet pelts". (h/t StrangrnFiction, GPer)

Posted by: Taqiyyotomist at December 06, 2011 12:10 PM (ltfED)

49

Lots of trees.

Lots of rope.

I'd gladly help with the assembly required.

Posted by: BIG ROB at December 06, 2011 12:10 PM (hr33h)

50 Why?  Really- what does anyone on this side of the border gain by destabilizing Mexico?  Cui bono?


Death.... destruction.... mayhem.....  Hey LOOKIE OVER THERE!!!! American guns did this.  We need to do something about American guns dammit!!!!

Posted by: Eric Holder at December 06, 2011 12:10 PM (C8hzL)

51 I hope some one can tie Nancy into this.

Posted by: Pecos, All Perry, all the time at December 06, 2011 12:10 PM (2Gb0y)

52 Well, Ace. Are you starting to smell some Reichstag smoke?

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 12:10 PM (OlN4e)

53 But they knew.  They knew the whole thing.  They knew people would die.  They did not care.  They still do not care.

Well, it's just little people. Not anyone who matters. Hardly people at all.

Posted by: Heorot at December 06, 2011 12:11 PM (Nq/UF)

54 No one cares about this Fuck you. I do. Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 04:09 PM (KC2BE) I agree with Scott. This is serious stuff.

Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 12:11 PM (dZmFh)

55 I just want to know when Holder gets extradited to Mexico.

Posted by: toby928© stickin' it to THE MAN at December 06, 2011 12:11 PM (IfkGz)

56 I hope some one can tie Nancy into this. Posted by: Pecos, All Perry, all the time at December 06, 2011 04:10 PM (2Gb0y) Even obama and the gang who can only shoot to the left aren't stupid enough to let pelosi in on anything. She is just a useful idiot

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 06, 2011 12:12 PM (i6RpT)

57 Is Burke the one that was in an E-mail, speaking to an atf agent , that wanted to get info on Grassley to blackmail him to shut him up?
or am I misremembering that email?

Posted by: willow at December 06, 2011 12:12 PM (h+qn8)

58 I hope some one can tie Nancy into this.

Given enough of BIG ROB's solution, that shouldn't be too hard.

I just want to know when Holder gets extradited to Mexico.

Put that on pay-per-view.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:12 PM (8y9MW)

59

Fast and Furious?

Vin Diesel?

Thats hot.

 

Posted by: Oprah's Audience at December 06, 2011 12:12 PM (8ieXv)

60 From: Melson, Kenneth E.
To: Burke, Dennis (USAAZ)
Sent: 2/3/2011 7:51:58 PM
Subject: Grassley

Dennis: I just got back from the Interpol meeting and wanted to thank you for your help on the Grassley response and for your work on Fast and Furious. Ken

... and this is from the guy who was "sick to his stomach"

According to Mr. Melson, he and ATF's senior leadership team moved to reassign every manager involved in Fast and Furious, from the Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations down to the Group Supervisor, after learning the facts in those documents. Mr. Melson also said he was not allowed to communicate to Congress the reasons for the reassignments. He claimed that ATF's senior leadership would have preferred to be more cooperative with our inquiry much earlier in the process.

Can you say BullS.... ?

Posted by: Lanny Davis at December 06, 2011 12:13 PM (e8kgV)

61 40 30-pretty darn good, except for this kind of stuff. It's tough on my blood pressure. I fear my doc will tell me I have to stop reading my blogs to keep it in check. I don't know which would be worse-a heart attack, or no Ace?!

Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 04:07 PM (dZmFh)


No Ace, definitely!

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 12:13 PM (T2/zQ)

62 Ace, you linked one SSI story but left this one out. Melson is fooked if he doesn't roll.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:14 PM (KC2BE)

63 60 Gotta go, another Dr.'s appt. See y'all later.

Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 12:15 PM (dZmFh)

64 No-one cares about this?
criminy there were hundreds if not more mexicans killed, I'm sure many innocent mexicans  in those gun battles in towns along the border, not including what they were used for on this side of the border, also given to gangs in the states. not including the death of Terry!

Posted by: willow at December 06, 2011 12:15 PM (h+qn8)

65 38 So, in short, both State and Justice are running guns to Mexico, and attempting to destabilize the country.

Why?  Really- what does anyone on this side of the border gain by destabilizing Mexico?  Cui bono? 

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 04:07 PM (8y9MW)


A two-fer: more Mexicans crossing the border (presumably to vote Democrat) and a pretext for cracking down on gun-ownership in the US.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 12:16 PM (T2/zQ)

66 This thing was inter-agency as well as international. That points to both the WH and State being in the loop.

Just need the smoking gun to prove it.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:16 PM (KC2BE)

67

Fast and Furious?

Vin Diesel?


Yeah, I'm disappointed Ace didn't go with a "Fast and Furious cover up -- 2 Fast, 2 Furious" title.

But he did hit with the 'mostly peaceful stabbing' title this morning.

Posted by: Uriah Heep at December 06, 2011 12:17 PM (447Af)

68 A two-fer: more Mexicans crossing the border (presumably to vote Democrat) and a pretext for cracking down on gun-ownership in the US.

I get the latter, but the former?  How does this encourage Mexicans to cross the border?

Just need the smoking gun to prove it.

And then... what?  Impeach the President?  Good luck with that.
If all you're looking for is to get Holder and Big Sis kicked to the curb (and, hopefully, extradited to Mexico) we've got more than enough for that already.

Heck- threaten to do exactly that, and I bet you'd get your "smoking gun."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:18 PM (8y9MW)

69 The link in the sidebar about the bassist who bought the old Greyhound bus also has a link to his clothing company. You fellas will be pleased.

Posted by: Walmart's Evil $4 Teaser Drugs at December 06, 2011 12:19 PM (piMMO)

70 Gotta go, another Dr.'s appt. See y'all later.

Posted by: moki at December 06, 2011 04:15 PM (dZmFh)



God and a good report be with you!

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 12:19 PM (T2/zQ)

71 I fear my doc will tell me I have to stop reading my blogs to keep it in check.

That is no joke.  Made the mistake of reading a Forbes article on the new IMF chief in the docs waiting room.  My normally normal blood pressure was so high the velcro on the cuff wouldn't hold.

Posted by: Bob Saget at December 06, 2011 12:21 PM (SDkq3)

72 Allen at the very least I'd like to see Holder gone and a giant house cleaning at BATF. Some say abolish ATF but I'd rather have it in rehab than its duties spun to FBI or Homeland Security.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:21 PM (KC2BE)

73 1 There were a lot of hands working on it.

I have a pair of bolt cutters. It's time to start taking fingers.

Thumbs first.

Posted by: d_fitz at December 06, 2011 12:21 PM (UW4ln)

74

God and a good report be with you!

Same here, moki.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 06, 2011 12:22 PM (d0Tfm)

75 OT/Breaking: Romney says no to Trump debate

Posted by: AuthorLMendez Is On The Newt Train at December 06, 2011 12:22 PM (yAor6)

76 Also OT on my favorite topic these days: Drudge reporting runs on Greek banks.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:23 PM (KC2BE)

77 OT/Breaking: Romney says no to Trump debate

So, what will it be? Perry, Newt, and Trump make three?

Posted by: Walmart's Evil $4 Teaser Drugs at December 06, 2011 12:23 PM (piMMO)

78 I get the latter, but the former?  How does this encourage Mexicans to cross the border?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 04:18 PM (8y9MW)


To get away from the violence, of course: mass murders, beheadings, dismembermings (sp)...wouldn't you leave? I seem to recall that a Mexican blogger was recently killed just for documenting the violence.

Talked to my gardener a couple of weeks ago.  He told me how it goes down there.  He says he never wants to go back.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 12:25 PM (T2/zQ)

79
Newt just challenged Zachary Taylor to make a speech.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:25 PM (sqkOB)

80 All I want for Christmas is Eric Holder's head... on a pike.

Posted by: No Whining at December 06, 2011 12:25 PM (0AClR)

81 @ 54 No one cares about this

Fuck you. I do.

---------------------------

Fuck yourself. The average Joe Voter who doesn't give Shit One about anything but where their next paycheck comes from and what Snooki says on Jersey Shore isn't going to care a bit about this stuff. In the end, it ain't gonna hurt Obama one bit.

Posted by: Pecker Snot at December 06, 2011 12:26 PM (sTS/8)

82 @48: That's almost as funny as the Gloria Allred bat sex press conference.  Too bad nobody asked a followup regarding the JEF's preference on sheep vs. goats.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 06, 2011 12:26 PM (tqwMN)

83 So, kind of on topic.  Anyone have any pointers on his-and-her handguns for the CUS household for Christmas?  Something for mostly home-defense, but maybe taking to the shooting range and maybe some tactical games.

Oh, and I also would like to settle on standard ammo for both weapons for now.  Getting different loads for each gun I don't think is an advantage.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 12:26 PM (84pE9)

84 President Obama cares about me !!!!!

Posted by: Wall-E at December 06, 2011 12:26 PM (48wze)

85 Did the WH guy, who they said was in Iraq, testify yet? My solution -- a joint statement signed by all of the major Republican candidates, stating that they will not protect F&F officials who do not cooperate with Issa and Grassely from extradition to Mexico. There will be GS15s on their knees begging to sell out the politicians.

Posted by: Jean at December 06, 2011 12:26 PM (WkuV6)

86 Heck- threaten to do exactly that, and I bet you'd get your "smoking gun." Then The Back-Stabbening will have begun.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 06, 2011 12:26 PM (vzFJV)

87 @81, so you're saying you'd rather Ace blog about Jersey Shore?

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:27 PM (KC2BE)

88 OT/Breaking: Romney says no to Trump debate

Jen Rubin to strongly condemn the Trump debate in 5... 4... 3... 2...

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 06, 2011 12:28 PM (SY2Kh)

89 83, what sort of budget did you have in mind?

These are first guns for you and the spouse?

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:28 PM (KC2BE)

90 4 Watergate did not have a body count.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney

You beat me to it Allen

Posted by: mpfs at December 06, 2011 12:29 PM (iYbLN)

91 68 A two-fer: more Mexicans crossing the border (presumably to vote Democrat) and a pretext for cracking down on gun-ownership in the US.

I get the latter, but the former?  How does this encourage Mexicans to cross the border?

Just need the smoking gun to prove it.

And then... what?  Impeach the President?  Good luck with that.
If all you're looking for is to get Holder and Big Sis kicked to the curb (and, hopefully, extradited to Mexico) we've got more than enough for that already.

Heck- threaten to do exactly that, and I bet you'd get your "smoking gun."

Google El provenir Ft Hancock to see why.
Sorry can't post link.

Posted by: Pecos, All Perry, all the time at December 06, 2011 12:29 PM (2Gb0y)

92 Fuck yourself. The average Joe Voter who doesn't give Shit One about anything but where their next paycheck comes from and what Snooki says on Jersey Shore isn't going to care a bit about this stuff. In the end, it ain't gonna hurt Obama one bit. The Average Joe that watches Snookie and lives paycheck to paycheck, also forgets to vote. You can't pander to them, you have to sell your base and likely to vote independents (ie old people).

Posted by: Jean at December 06, 2011 12:29 PM (WkuV6)

93 Early last spring I remember a few comments/questions that wondered why Grassley didn't drop this futile search and concentrate on more juicy things.

Those musings were from both the left and the right blogosphere.

Posted by: ALF at December 06, 2011 12:30 PM (+KHIt)

94 Posted by: mpfs at December 06, 2011 04:29 PM (iYbLN)

One of two vital Truths about this Administration:
Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

The other:
Watergate did not have a body count.

Neither of these can be said enough, let alone too often.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:30 PM (8y9MW)

95 Jen Rubin to strongly condemn the Trump debate in 5... 4... 3... 2...

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 06, 2011 04:28 PM (SY2Kh)

Hugh Hewitt had Romneys guy on last night trying to get him to tell his boss to back out of the Trump debate, he'll probably be on tonight going off on how serious Mitt is

Posted by: AuthorLMendez Is On The Newt Train at December 06, 2011 12:30 PM (yAor6)

96 So, kind of on topic.  Anyone have any pointers on his-and-her handguns for the CUS household for Christmas?  Something for mostly home-defense, but maybe taking to the shooting range and maybe some tactical games.

The only answer here is for yourself and your wife to hold and handle various types and models to see what feels comfortable for each of you.  What might fit your hand perfectly might be awkward for her, and vise versa.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 06, 2011 12:30 PM (SY2Kh)

97 In the end, it ain't gonna hurt Obama one bit.

And I say it will.  Checkmate, tiny person who lives in my flatscreen.

Posted by: toby928© at December 06, 2011 12:31 PM (IfkGz)

98 The only thing I heard wrong in what he said is that the Federal Government operates under the rule of law just like everyone else.

NO.THEY.FUCKING.DON'T.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 06, 2011 12:31 PM (uZky+)

99 @ CUS 9mm. Easy caliber to learn on, esp for women. High velocity, high capacity, low recoil, cheap to shoot, and regardless of what anyone says, a viable self-defense round. You can get some hotter +P loadings for extra MurderDeathKill goodness.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 06, 2011 12:31 PM (vzFJV)

100

There's blood in the water.  Even the MSM has pulled its head out of its ass and is starting to ask questions.

"You're gonna need a bigger boat hangman's scaffold!"

Posted by: Count de Monet at December 06, 2011 12:33 PM (4q5tP)

101 Speaking of guns, I cannot get over the vid of that jackass looking down the barrel of his rifle when it misfired.

Damn good thing it wasn't a shotgun.

Posted by: Walmart's Evil $4 Teaser Drugs at December 06, 2011 12:33 PM (piMMO)

Posted by: Leave Barak Alone!!! at December 06, 2011 12:34 PM (8ieXv)

103 WHERE ARE THE FUCKING HAND CUFFS!!

Posted by: UGrev at December 06, 2011 12:34 PM (yBuLL)

104 83 

His and Hers.... same cartridge.... look at the S&W 638.

Small frame five shot revolver..... 38 special.... can be shot single action for plinking or target shooting.  Shrouded hammer for conceal and carry.  Very light.

Posted by: Eric Holder at December 06, 2011 12:34 PM (C8hzL)

105 Posted by: Count de Monet at December 06, 2011 04:33 PM (4q5tP)

Naaa.  Just go back to the firing squad.  A nice wall to stand beside, plenty of sunshine.  What's wrong with that?  Well, except for the blindfold and the high velocity lead pellet.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:34 PM (8y9MW)

106

#83

I have a Springfield .45 in a biometric safe on my nightstand, the bride has a Glock 9. Both are fun, but the 45 will stop anyone at any time. It's also a pistol that needs a strong hand to control. Both are great to shoot, relatively easy to clean and they provide some serious peace of mind.

Hope this helps.

 

Posted by: BIG ROB at December 06, 2011 12:34 PM (hr33h)

107 This will hurt Obambi because an American Border Agent was murdered with one of those weapons.  This is what will do him in.  The Terry family is not going to shut up and I don't blame them.  Holder is complicit in the murder of that agent.

How many other innocent Americans were killed with these guns?  How many innocent Mexican citizens were killed with these guns?  I bet the Mexican AG wants to grab Holder by the short hairs and string him up.

Posted by: mpfs at December 06, 2011 12:34 PM (iYbLN)

108 damn.... sock begone

Posted by: fixerupper at December 06, 2011 12:35 PM (C8hzL)

109 How about the Fast and Lucrative Drug Money Laundering?
Can there be any doubt now that even the NYT is covering it?
We are way down the rabbit hole folks, well past time for indictments.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 06, 2011 12:35 PM (HBqDo)

110 99, I'm partial to a 4" .38 Special revolver to learn on. You can find used ones for less than $200 each.

But he mentioned some action pistol stuff and as much as I love my wheelguns they are at a disadvantage there. So with that in mind I'd also echo the 9mm that each of them are most comfortable with.

Then find a NRA First Steps class locally and go.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:35 PM (KC2BE)

111 I think you guys are forgetting that the President of Mexico was up to his neck in this--giving a speech before Congress about the despicable, despicable, American guns used for violent crimes in Mexico.  Mexico won't prosecute, and someone should look into what was promised them to be on board. 

Posted by: artemis at December 06, 2011 12:36 PM (TeUZw)

112 In the end, it ain't gonna hurt Obama one bit.
..............
And I say it will.  Checkmate, tiny person who lives in my flatscreen.

IF this gets additional "MSM" traction (50/50) with the general public AND the money-laundering story gets tied into this somehow, it will hurt Obama big time.

Otherwise, Obama just throws a couple bodies under the bus and shows us all how concerned he is, because this demonstrates how transparent he's being, and he's really disappointed in a few people but he has to make these tough decisions.

CBS is becoming a pleasant surprise in this narrow area, for what that's worth.

Posted by: ALF at December 06, 2011 12:36 PM (+KHIt)

113 @ 101

  I'd say it was a pity it wasn't.

Posted by: irongrampa at December 06, 2011 12:36 PM (SAMxH)

114 Why do they need to cover it up? The MFM won't report on it to begin with.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 06, 2011 12:36 PM (1Jaio)

115 I agree, where the hell are the handcuffs? Holder and perhaps even Obama need to be charged and convicted and imprisoned if it is shown that this "operation" was designed to support an effort to tighten gun laws in this country. I mean it. I'm writing my senator today demanding he start taking action in this matter.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:36 PM (Xm1aB)

116 This whole scandal makes G. Gordon Liddy look like a Wal Mart greeter in comparison to Watergate.

Posted by: mpfs at December 06, 2011 12:36 PM (iYbLN)

117 Have to disagree with 104. A snubbie is not the way to learn. They are difficult to shoot well.

Most gun shops push the .38 snub at beginners. I believe it does them a disservice.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:37 PM (KC2BE)

118 @111 I agree. I'm not a conspiracy enthusiast, but I swear this has all the markings of one.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:38 PM (Xm1aB)

119

"Why did Justice, the ATF and an alphabet soup of federal agencies facilitate the transfer of guns across the border — without the knowledge of Mexican authorities — when they knew they couldn’t trace them properly?"

Bono can tell you why.....he's been sermonizing about all these dead mexicans at US hands for years now.  At first I laughed.....but turns out Bono was pretty much on target.

 

Posted by: Dathi at December 06, 2011 12:38 PM (3As+p)

120

Hopefully, this won't stay "under the radar" for much longer.

All I want for Christmas is for this to go all the way to the SCOAMF. I have a feeling that if Grassley and Co. push this hard enough, they'll find that deliciously ironic smoking gun. It's one of those things you just know is true: proving it will be a bit more difficult.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 06, 2011 12:39 PM (d0Tfm)

121
My guess on the getting more Mexicans to cross the border thing is to create a situation so bad that they are accepted as refugees.  To never leave.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 06, 2011 12:39 PM (JYheX)

122 It will not effect Obama "this term" because the House and the Senate Republicans will do nothing but cry for Holder to "resign".

I don't want the SOB to resign. I want him to go to damn jail.

Posted by: Vic at December 06, 2011 12:40 PM (YdQQY)

123 I don't buy that the Mexican Government was involved.  It's all downside for them.  And if this was going on and Mexico was unaware, that would explain El Presidente yelling about evil, evil American guns.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:40 PM (8y9MW)

124 I'm not a conspiracy enthusiast, but I swear this has all the markings of one

I have mused if the whole thing weren't a setup to get the Senate to ratify the UN treaty on small arms that effectively guts our 2nd Amendment.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:40 PM (KC2BE)

125
Newt just challenged two annoying blond kids, a boy and a girl, to a race to the top of Witch Mountain.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:40 PM (sqkOB)

126 117--As a past owner of a snubby .38, +1000!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at December 06, 2011 12:40 PM (WUWb9)

127 What the hell is Hilary doing?

I seem to remember the Secretary of State bemoaning the gun crisis at the border.  Ah yes, here we go:

From 2009:  http://tinyurl.com/3zytak6

Headline "Clinton:  U.S. Fueling Mexican Drug Wars"

Posted by: Pupster at December 06, 2011 12:40 PM (6tVbw)

128
Newt just invited Jon Hunstman on an African safari.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:41 PM (sqkOB)

129 Newt just invited Jon Hunstman on an African safari. Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 04:41 PM (sqkOB) Would be better if Cheney did

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 06, 2011 12:42 PM (i6RpT)

130
Newt just asked Ron Paul to sit down with him on his porch and whittle sticks.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:42 PM (sqkOB)

131 Working with older grandkid on pistol shooting. We use a .22 Woodsman at this stage, to get her versed in safe handling, sight pic, etc., without contending with recoil.  When she masters the basics, then will come a .38, I think.  I don't want any distractions in her education.

Posted by: irongrampa at December 06, 2011 12:42 PM (SAMxH)

132 83, what sort of budget did you have in mind? These are first guns for you and the spouse?

Maybe a thou total.  And yes, first ones.

The only answer here is for yourself and your wife to hold and handle various types and models to see what feels comfortable for each of you.

Yes, this.  That's why his and her models.

9mm vs 45 I think that is the question.  A 45 might be too tough to control especially for her.  Hell, if I could standardize even down to the clip, that would be nice.  Just grab a clip and put int into either weapon.

And yes--a shooting class is in our future.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 12:42 PM (84pE9)

133 117.  I hear what your saying..... but I think this is where the 638 in single action shooting shines.   My wife hates every 9, 40 and 45 Ive ever tried to teach her to shoot.

I cannot get my 638 back from her.  And she shoots it well and loves that little revolver.

To each their own.


Posted by: fixerupper at December 06, 2011 12:43 PM (C8hzL)

134 36 Will we be able to pick our favorite co -conspirator before the trials begin?
Dibs on Big Sis.
I want to watch her perpwalk. That should be cute.

Posted by: Pecos, All Perry, all the time at December 06, 2011 04:07 PM (2Gb0y)

True justice would be for Big Sis to be forced to go through TSA screening procedures using the X-Ray scan every time she enters the courtroom. 

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at December 06, 2011 12:43 PM (WUWb9)

135 @123 It's all downside for Mexico, based on what we now know. We have no idea what may have been exchanged or promised if the Mexicans looked the other way. I do know that one of the largest, if not the largest source of income for Mexico, are Western Union moneygrams sent by the illegals.....allowed to stay in America unmolested.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:43 PM (Xm1aB)

136 Newt just asked Ron Paul to sit down with him on his porch and whittle sticks. craft dreidels.

Fixed.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:43 PM (8y9MW)

137 117 Have to disagree with 104. A snubbie is not the way to learn. They are difficult to shoot well.

Most gun shops push the .38 snub at beginners. I believe it does them a disservice.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 04:37 PM (KC2BE)

Agree. Beginner should start with a revolver. .38 S&W special +P is fine. preferrably a 4" bbl. with adj sights. Also tough to beat wadcutters for lethality.

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 12:43 PM (OlN4e)

138 @127 Yep, looking more and more like a coordinated effort of the Obama administration to toughen domestic gun laws. Prosecute them. Get to the truth.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:44 PM (Xm1aB)

139 @122 I agree. We're way past the point when Holder should have resigned or been fired. He needs to be staring down a federal prison cell.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:45 PM (Xm1aB)

140 I do know that one of the largest, if not the largest source of income for Mexico, are Western Union moneygrams sent by the illegals.....allowed to stay in America unmolested.

I'm not saying I don't believe they'd go for that, because my cynicism is willing to believe a great number of bad things about people, but it still doesn't make sense to me.  We were effectively arming two or more rebel armies who were in direct conflict with Mexican Federal authorities.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:46 PM (8y9MW)

141
Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?


Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:46 PM (sqkOB)

142
If not, I'll go apeshit.


Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:46 PM (sqkOB)

143

a .22 Woodsman

irongrandpa, what a sweet first auto for a kid to use. 

Posted by: Mr. Dave at December 06, 2011 12:47 PM (OBDWE)

144 141  He is going to comment from the 10th green about what a tragedy it was.

Posted by: no good deed at December 06, 2011 12:47 PM (mjR67)

145 @140 The cartels and the federalies were gonna be shootin' each other with or without guns walking into Mexico from the states.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:48 PM (Xm1aB)

146
Can you imagine a sitting president allowing the 70th anniversary of The Day of Infamy to pass without a mention?

I'd be shocked if Obama did this. But then again...

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:48 PM (sqkOB)

147 Maybe a thou total.  And yes, first ones

Easy to get two of just about any 9mm polymer frame right around that price point.

See if you can find a range near you that'll let you rent and try stuff.

.45 is a bit much for a beginner.

Ideally, you could afford something in .22 to learn on in addition to your defensive caliber.

I couldn't when I got started way back in 1991 so I bought an old S&W M&P .38 Special for $110.

Ran 50 rounds a week through it until I got good and then later traded it toward a .357 mag (wish I'd have kept my first gun).

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:48 PM (KC2BE)

148 Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

A quick google didn't find anything, and I'd be shocked if he did, quite frankly, but I can't say for sure.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:48 PM (8y9MW)

149 Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?


Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 04:46 PM (sqkOB)




Sure!!!  He's got the apology speech and teleprompter at the ready!!!!

Posted by: © Sponge at December 06, 2011 12:48 PM (uZky+)

150 Why does Obama hate Mexicans so much?

Posted by: Minuteman at December 06, 2011 12:49 PM (acEq7)

151 CBS is becoming a pleasant surprise in this narrow area, for what that's worth.

That's been happening time to time over there.  I think someone may actually have missed a dose and started acting on their journalistic traditions for once.  May as well enjoy it while it lasts.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez!
This message brought to you by Morons Against HTML Abuse
 at December 06, 2011 12:49 PM (GBXon)

152
Posted by: Count de Monet at December 06, 2011 04:33 PM (4q5tP)

Naaa.  Just go back to the firing squad.  A nice wall to stand beside, plenty of sunshine.  What's wrong with that?  Well, except for the blindfold and the high velocity lead pellet.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 04:34 PM (8y9MW)





These cockholsters don't deserve a firing squad. Execution by firing squad is an honorable death, standing tall, receiving your last cigarette and refusing the blindfold, facing your executioners and looking them in the eye before the volley to repay your debt to society.

Hanging by the neck is sordid, messy and undignified, with eyes and tongue bulging, bowels and bladder releasing at the end of the rope.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 12:49 PM (G+B5p)

153 Wasn't President Dickhead wanting to apologize to Japan for Hiroshima? Didn't that come out in the Assange leak?

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:50 PM (Xm1aB)

154 141 Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?


An apology?

Posted by: Dr Spank at December 06, 2011 12:50 PM (H/kgP)

155 The cartels and the federalies were gonna be shootin' each other with or without guns walking into Mexico from the states.

Absolutely.  I'm not saying that wouldn't have happened.  I'm saying that we were arming the cartels.  The Colonies were going to fight the British with or without France's involvement.  France just gave the Colonies a chance to win.

(Comparing from tactical, not moral, standpoint).

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:50 PM (8y9MW)

156
Boner should draft a resolution re-condemning the Japanese for the attack.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:50 PM (sqkOB)

157 Hanging by the neck is sordid, messy and undignified, with eyes and tongue bulging, bowels and bladder releasing at the end of the rope. Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 04:49 PM (G+B5p) Tell me about it

Posted by: Saddam at December 06, 2011 12:50 PM (i6RpT)

158 152:  Half-hanging, drawing, and quartering.  I'm a traditionalist like that.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez!
This message brought to you by Morons Against HTML Abuse
 at December 06, 2011 12:51 PM (GBXon)

159 I wish to apologize  to everyone. I stated in several posts that Lanny Breuer was the attorney in charge of the Phoenix office. The correct person was Dennis Burke. I simply misread some articles. I have no excuses. I thought I fact checked everything I had to say - I was wrong.

Posted by: An Observation at December 06, 2011 12:51 PM (ylhEn)

160 It makes you wonder if the MFM put this out in an effort to time it to appear as some sort of cohesive and complicated plan instead of the corrupt lawlessness that it is.
Link to NYT (in case you don't likey)

Posted by: ontherocks at December 06, 2011 12:51 PM (HBqDo)

161 The newly released e-mails show Dennis Burke, the since-fired US attorney in Arizona who supervised the operation, furiously pushing back against Grassley and his staff, calling them “willing stooges for the Gun Lobby.”As if this all more important than Scooter Libby outing Valerie Plame....oh wait, he didn't.  Never mind.

Posted by: Cheri at December 06, 2011 12:51 PM (G+Wff)

162 I'm not saying I don't believe they'd go for that, because my cynicism is willing to believe a great number of bad things about people, but it still doesn't make sense to me.  We were effectively arming two or more rebel armies who were in direct conflict with Mexican Federal authorities.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 04:46 PM (8y9MW)



The Mexican Feds are far outgunned by the cartels.  Many of the military and the police are bought off and many of the politicians who try to speak out are murdered, often along with their families.  Kidnapping is a big method of terror down there.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 12:51 PM (T2/zQ)

163 I know they did not have the best reputation a few years ago, but I took a look at this

http://tinyurl.com/6brlkz8


and this

http://tinyurl.com/865laq4

Which caliber of course is still being decided.  As well as of course which make.

But, it is fun doing research.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 12:52 PM (84pE9)

164 O/T: Alec Baldwin was just "removed from" an American Airlines flight, according to people on the plane who posted on Twitter.  Assuming it's true, this oughta be a good story.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 06, 2011 12:52 PM (tqwMN)

165

We were effectively arming two or more rebel armies who were in direct conflict with Mexican Federal authorities.

Excellent. More charges and longer jail time for Holder and Co.

Can't remember where I saw it, either here or over at Insty, but there was a law passed recently that made it a felony to provide any sort of aid in any way to a foreign drug cartel.

You have to admit, the SCOAMF almost has a pimple of a ball to try something like this in order to gut our 2nd Amendement right. And also to try to "persuade" us into it, thereby making him look like The Diety He Thinks He Really Is. We know he isn't smart enough to do this on his own, I smell the stench of Soros.

The litle fucker really has some issues...

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 06, 2011 12:53 PM (d0Tfm)

166 @164 There have been times I wished I could "remove" some of Alec Baldwin's teeth.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:53 PM (Xm1aB)

167 Why do I get the feeling that the whole thing is som,e sort of rope a dope?

Posted by: Jean at December 06, 2011 12:53 PM (WkuV6)

168

164 O/T: Alec Baldwin was just "removed from" an American Airlines flight, according to people on the plane who posted on Twitter.  Assuming it's true, this oughta be a good story.

I suppose it is too much to hope that they threw him out of the emergency door at 29000 feet?

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 12:54 PM (OlN4e)

169 141
Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?


Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 04:46 PM (sqkOB)

Yes! Family night at the local Wok-N-Sushi then a Godzilla/Bruce Lee movie marathon.

KooNee-Chi-Wah! Suckas!!!

 

Posted by: dananjcon at December 06, 2011 12:54 PM (8ieXv)

170 Why do I get the feeling that the whole thing is som,e sort of rope a dope?

I'm really not sure.  As hard as they're trying to avoid this (unlike, for example, the Birth Cert issue), I think they realize how big a deal this is, too.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:54 PM (8y9MW)

171 O/T: Alec Baldwin was just "removed from" an American Airlines flight, according to people on the plane who posted on Twitter.  Assuming it's true, this oughta be a good story.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 06, 2011 04:52 PM (tqwMN)




He'll still get elected in NY.

Personally, I want to see the guy panhandling on the street corner because he's flat f-ing broke, but I'll take what I can get. 

Posted by: © Sponge at December 06, 2011 12:54 PM (uZky+)

172
I'd loooooove to sit next to Alec Baldwin on a flight.

Remember that scene in that Arnold Shwarzenegger movie (I can't remember which) when Arnold is sitting next to some douchey bad guy on a plane and he backhands him into land of nod?

The stewardess walks by and Arnold smiles and says, "He's resting."

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:55 PM (sqkOB)

173 Obama probably believes that Japan was correct in hitting Pearl Harbor because we stole the Hawaiian islands from the Hawaiian People.

Posted by: Wall-E at December 06, 2011 12:55 PM (48wze)

174 Aside from the potentially sinister origins of F&F, it appears thus far that Holder has been coordinating a massive coverup before Congress while acting as the nation's top law enforcement officer. If true, he needs to rot in prison.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:55 PM (Xm1aB)

175 I think you can safely assume you are on the right track when a Democrat calls you a "stooge".

Posted by: Sharkman at December 06, 2011 12:55 PM (wMsKw)

176 then a Godzilla/Bruce Lee movie marathon.

The Dragon was Chinese, not Japanese.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:55 PM (8y9MW)

177 Ideally, you could afford something in .22 to learn on in addition to your defensive caliber.

Hmmmmm.....And take to the range....

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 12:55 PM (84pE9)

178
the land of Nod

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:56 PM (sqkOB)

179
117--As a past owner of a snubby .38, +1000!

Posted by: Turd Ferguson at December 06, 2011 04:40 PM (WUWb9)




One of the gunbloggers describes the experience of shooting an S&W ultralight .357 snub as "putting your hand on the table and letting a friend smack it with a 2x4".


Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 12:56 PM (G+B5p)

180 Personally, I want to see the guy panhandling on the street corner because he's flat f-ing broke, but I'll take what I can get. 

Posted by: © Sponge at December 06, 2011 04:54 PM (uZky+)

Your too kind. I want to see him selling blowjobs for a quarter a pop to the homeless under a bridge somewhere.

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 12:56 PM (OlN4e)

181
btw, when's the last time you heard the expression "the Land of Nod?"


Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:56 PM (sqkOB)

182 out out damn spot

Posted by: nevergiveup at December 06, 2011 12:57 PM (i6RpT)

183 btw, when's the last time you heard the expression "the Land of Nod?"

Yesterday.  But my friends are weird.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 12:57 PM (8y9MW)

184 So, kind of on topic.  Anyone have any pointers on his-and-her handguns for the CUS household for Christmas?  Something for mostly home-defense, but maybe taking to the shooting range and maybe some tactical games.

Oh, and I also would like to settle on standard ammo for both weapons for now.  Getting different loads for each gun I don't think is an advantage.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 04:26 PM (84pE9)

 

Check out the Judge Revolver from Taurus. Shoots .45 Long Colt or .410 shotshells. ( cant get it in California )

A faceload of # 2s or #4s at 10 feet would deter most.

 

Posted by: The Jackhole at December 06, 2011 12:57 PM (nTgAI)

185
what movie was it?

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 12:57 PM (sqkOB)

186 163, I have no quarrel with Taurus. I have a PT745 (the 6 +1 round version of the PT145 in your link) and it's in my concealed carry rotation.

I bought it used in 2009 and other than the mag catch breaking (Taurus sent me a replacement at no cost and I installed it myself) it has not malfunctioned once.

But it's not a beginner's gun. It jumps has hard as my snub nose .357 mag.

The 24/7 in 9mm is a very mild piece.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 12:58 PM (KC2BE)

187 My theory has been that many of the last 10 years or so attempts with new gun laws weren't to actually attack the 2nd amendment directly but to make it so difficult to sell guns to law abiding people that the dealers go out of business.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 06, 2011 12:58 PM (JYheX)

188 Time to get out the guillotine. Set it up on the capital steps. Start the line with Holder. There should be many more...

Posted by: MrTea at December 06, 2011 12:58 PM (uSdvi)

189 164 O/T: Alec Baldwin was just "removed from" an American Airlines flight, according to people on the plane who posted on Twitter.  Assuming it's true, this oughta be a good story.

The flight attendants for American Airlines are such rude, thoughtless pigs! 

Posted by: Alec Baldwin at December 06, 2011 12:58 PM (UR5vq)

190 206 Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: Steevy at December 06, 2011 12:58 PM (vd4t0)

191 OT: @: Michael Copps to resign from the FCC http://t.co/SYOIqWSI Media marxists hardest hit.


An outspoken advocate for net neutrality, Copps has also taken the commission to task for not doing enough to promote diversity in the media and telecom industry during his decade-long tenure.

Posted by: Miss'80s at December 06, 2011 12:58 PM (d6QMz)

192 82 @48: That's almost as funny as the Gloria Allred bat sex press conference.  Too bad nobody asked a followup regarding the JEF's preference on sheep vs. goats.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 06, 2011 04:26 PM (tqwMN)

The JEF does not know the difference between a goat and a sheep.

Posted by: Killerdog at December 06, 2011 12:58 PM (CZrbJ)

193 Think about it for just a minute. What reasonable explanation is there for F&F other than the conspiracy angle?

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 12:59 PM (Xm1aB)

194 177 then a Godzilla/Bruce Lee movie marathon.

The Dragon was Chinese, not Japanese.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 04:55 PM (8y9MW)

Don't be such a smarty pants!

 

Posted by: dananjcon at December 06, 2011 01:00 PM (8ieXv)

195 181
btw, when's the last time you heard the expression "the Land of Nod?"

And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord...and took up residence, in the Land of Nod! 

Posted by: Nadia (from C&C Red Alert) at December 06, 2011 01:00 PM (UR5vq)

196 #186, et al

+1 on the Taurus autos. Reliable and inexpensive. Lifetime warranty doesn't hurt either.

Posted by: Joe Mama at December 06, 2011 01:00 PM (CYoZS)

197 Cloture on SCOAMF anti-gun DC appellate court nominee fails.

Dems OUTRAGED! Unprecedented! Egregious, Outrageous ..


Posted by: kbdabear at December 06, 2011 01:00 PM (Y+DPZ)

198
Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 04:55 PM (sqkOB)



You're thinking of Commando.

He elbows the douchebag in the face and then snaps his neck. He asks the stewardess not to disturb his friend because "he's dead tired".

Then Arnie jumps out of the plane without a parachute into a swamp.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:00 PM (G+B5p)

199 One of the gunbloggers describes the experience of shooting an S&W ultralight .357 snub as "putting your hand on the table and letting a friend smack it with a 2x4".

After about 25 rounds of full magnums out of the SP-101 I linked to a pick of above I literally have trouble using a pen my hand is so sore.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:01 PM (KC2BE)

200 9mm vs 45 I think that is the question.  A 45 might be too tough to control especially for her.  Hell, if I could standardize even down to the clip, that would be nice.  Just grab a clip and put int into either weapon.

And yes--a shooting class is in our future.

Magazines are caliber specific; different calibers even for the same model handgun will require different magazines.

More important than caliber, IMO, is the fit of the gun.  A woman with small hands might find the grip of a double-stack full sized 9mm to be too wide and prefer a single-stack model or revolver.  Some women find the recoil of a .45 objectionable, others don't (it's really not that bad).

If there's a gun range nearby that rents, you might consider narrowing down your choices and trying a few out.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 06, 2011 01:01 PM (SY2Kh)

201 I don't want the SOB to resign. I want him to go to damn jail.

The War on Drugs, Obama wants his own Iran-Contra Affair.

Sen. Chuck Grassley, Iowa -- good speech.
Senator Grassley has been on the Committee on the Judiciary every year that heÂ’s served in the Senate and today has a leadership position as the committeeÂ’s Ranking Member. The Committee on the Judiciary is one of the SenateÂ’s original standing committees and has a broad and influential jurisdiction, including crime, antitrust, bankruptcy, intellectual property, the federal courts and judges, civil liberties, constitutional law and amendments, and immigration. ... Sen. Grassley is the Co-Chairman of the Caucus on International Narcotics Control. 



Posted by: The Pirates Your Mother Fears at December 06, 2011 01:01 PM (lpWVn)

202
He elbows the douchebag in the face and then snaps his neck. He asks the stewardess not to disturb his friend because "he's dead tired".

damn, you're good

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:01 PM (sqkOB)

203 Then Arnie jumps out of the plane without a parachute into a swamp.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 05:00 PM (G+B5p)



At about 185 MPH....

Posted by: © Sponge at December 06, 2011 01:02 PM (uZky+)

204

If Holder is tried in a DC court he'll walk after the jurors have had a cup of coffee.

Posted by: bonfice ballers at December 06, 2011 01:02 PM (bPbwB)

205 164 O/T: Alec Baldwin was just "removed from" an American Airlines flight, according to people on the plane who posted on Twitter.  Assuming it's true, this oughta be a good story.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 06, 2011 04:52 PM

It's ok, I've played a rude obnoxious abusive drunk before

Posted by: Alec Baldwin at December 06, 2011 01:02 PM (Y+DPZ)

206 shotshells

This.  From what I can gather are recommended as a defensive round. 

Am am leaning towards a 9mm just because it should give a little less kick for the Mrs.  45 shotshells seem to be more readily available that 9mm shotshells (I have just seen them once).  Is that about right?

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 01:02 PM (84pE9)

207  
that's right, too
the land of nod is in the Bible

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:03 PM (sqkOB)

208 We need to win in 2012 and then appoint the mostest baddest US Attorneys there is to prosecute these pukes.  Throw a perjury indictment against Kagen in the mix as well.

Posted by: observer at December 06, 2011 01:03 PM (wfcVz)

209 his-and-her handguns

Don't let her shoot the S&W500, then she will want one and you will have to man up and pretend to enjoy shooting it.

Posted by: Bob Saget at December 06, 2011 01:03 PM (SDkq3)

210 177 then a Godzilla/Bruce Lee movie marathon.

The Dragon was Chinese, not Japanese.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 04:55 PM (8y9MW)


Which is the point.  A guy who thinks that there are 57 states, thinks there's a language called Austrian, and thinks that the US liberated Auschwitz probably doesn't know the difference between China and Japan.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 06, 2011 01:03 PM (T2/zQ)

211
At about 185 MPH....

Is that bad?

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:03 PM (sqkOB)

212

I like revolvers for women and beginners and panic situations. If you pull the trigger and nothing happens... pull it again. Less complex than an auto and can be kept loaded with the hammer on an empty hole.

If you bought .357s the wife could shoot .38s for less recoil and maybe eventually move up. I don't care for the snubbys, 4 in barrel for me.

 

Posted by: The Jackhole at December 06, 2011 01:04 PM (nTgAI)

213 Want reasonably priced ammo? Buy 9mm Parabellum, or 45 ACP. The Russians load both. My son just paid $2/round for .45 LC. I'm getting him casting gear and reloading dies for X-mas.

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 01:04 PM (OlN4e)

214 200, working the slide can be an issue for women as well.

My wife has issues working the slide on most of my autos. She has trigger reach issues with several too.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:04 PM (KC2BE)

215
Is that bad?

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 05:03 PM (sqkOB)



It should've been.  That swamp wasn't very deep.  I mean, he didn't have to swim.  He just walked out.

Posted by: © Sponge at December 06, 2011 01:05 PM (uZky+)

216
After about 25 rounds of full magnums out of the SP-101 I linked to a pick of above I literally have trouble using a pen my hand is so sore.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 05:01 PM (KC2BE)





Damn, I wish you hadn't said that, Scott. I'd been considering the 3" SP-101 for next year's Christmas present to myself.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:05 PM (G+B5p)

217
he landed on his maid Mildred

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:05 PM (sqkOB)

218 If there's a gun range nearby that rents, you might consider narrowing down your choices and trying a few out.

That is in our future, too.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 01:05 PM (84pE9)

219 CUS, shotshells in a handgun are mostly useless on humans.

If they penetrate at all they go in only a couple of inches unless you're at contact distance.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:06 PM (KC2BE)

220 From a law enforcement perspective, what's the point of allowing guns to walk to Mexico?

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 01:06 PM (Xm1aB)

221 Alec Baldwin cares about me !

Posted by: Wall-E at December 06, 2011 01:07 PM (48wze)

222 Has anyone else noticed that Ace (who normally defends his anti-conspiracy take vociferously) has been absent from the thread?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 01:07 PM (8y9MW)

223 Damn, I wish you hadn't said that, Scott. I'd been considering the 3" SP-101 for next year's Christmas present to myself.

But it's really mild with .38s. You can manage those all day.

Then finish off with a couple of cylinders full of .357.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:07 PM (KC2BE)

224   How many innocent Mexican citizens were killed with these guns?  I bet the Mexican AG wants to grab Holder by the short hairs and string him up.

Posted by: mpfs at December 06, 2011 04:34 PM (iYbLN)


Closing in on 300, including yours truly.

Posted by: Jose From The Grave at December 06, 2011 01:07 PM (wfcVz)

225 Ruger has a bad tendancy to use too small a grip on their magnums. That means it hurts your hand to shoot full house loads. Cure is aftermarket grips.

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 01:07 PM (OlN4e)

226 the land of nod is in the Bible

I thought that was where Winkin and Blinkin came from.

Posted by: toby928© at December 06, 2011 01:07 PM (IfkGz)

227 From what I've learned, gun dealers who suspected purchasers were buying guns to take to Mexico alerted the ATF and were then told to go ahead and sell. Why? What's the point from a law enforcement perspective?

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 01:08 PM (Xm1aB)

228
Some people remember details of every movie they watched.

I only remember one movie and one tv show.

The Godfather and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. Know every line by heart.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:08 PM (sqkOB)

229
Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 05:01 PM (sqkOB)



That movie should be required for morons. Easily the most hilariously quotable Shwartzenpecker film, not to mention one of the highest body counts in film history. What's not to love?

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:08 PM (G+B5p)

230

sure is a slow day today at the mothership

Posted by: AuthorLMendez Is On The Newt Train Whether Becks Likes It Or Not at December 06, 2011 01:08 PM (yAor6)

231 About time for Ace to pop in and comment about us stroking our gun dicks?

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 01:08 PM (OlN4e)

232 Somebody warm-up my pardon pen. It's going to be a long night.

Posted by: SCOAMF Obama at December 06, 2011 01:09 PM (ulJBE)

233 Has anyone else noticed that Ace (who normally defends his anti-conspiracy take vociferously) has been absent from the thread?

Now that you mention it.

I did notice that he didn't include any of his "but I doubt this conspiracy nonsense" talk in the main post.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:09 PM (KC2BE)

234 Damn, I wish you hadn't said that, Scott. I'd been considering the 3" SP-101 for next year's Christmas present to myself.

But it's really mild with .38s. You can manage those all day.

Then finish off with a couple of cylinders full of .357.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 05:07 PM (KC2BE)

Or go with the GP 100. Its a nice revolver  

Posted by: The Jackhole at December 06, 2011 01:09 PM (nTgAI)

235 The Godfather and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. Know every line by heart.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 05:08 PM (sqkOB)

I will never get why so many love "The Godfather", really I never will.

Posted by: AuthorLMendez Is On The Newt Train Whether Becks Likes It Or Not at December 06, 2011 01:09 PM (yAor6)

236

 My theory has been that many of the last 10 years or so attempts with new gun laws weren't to actually attack the 2nd amendment directly but to make it so difficult to sell guns to law abiding people that the dealers go out of business.

Yeah, that's true. That's why I think this is a new twist on that.

From a psychological standpoint, it's far easier to "persuade" someone that it is to outright cram something down their throats, backlash and all that.

I'm reminded of a lyric from a Sting song: "Convince an enemy, convince him that he's wrong is to win a bloodless battle, the victory is long." Lefty things like this give me some insight into their current beliefs and tactics. They advertise it, if you know what to look for.

1984 was a plan for many in evil's employ. We're seeing a lot of that in action today, such as the shocking number of Americans with no real knowledge of the history of Socialism, or the body count, and therefore think it's no big deal when we who remember describe a Dim that way.

The word "Socialist," like many other words, has been stripped of meaning.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 06, 2011 01:09 PM (d0Tfm)

237
how did "commando" become synonymous with "no fruit of the looms?"

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:10 PM (sqkOB)

238 This.  From what I can gather are recommended as a defensive round. 

Am am leaning towards a 9mm just because it should give a little less kick for the Mrs.  45 shotshells seem to be more readily available that 9mm shotshells (I have just seen them once).  Is that about right?

Don't bother with shotshells for anything other than for killing snakes and such on a hike.

Shotshells fired from a handgun are too lacking in penetration for use as a self-defense round.

Shot is for shotguns, period.  Even .410 shot from a pistol is weak.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 06, 2011 01:10 PM (SY2Kh)

239 Well, ace has said not to get too far out on a limb with conspiracy accusations until there is solid proof, not that he categorically denied such a conspiracy. If I read him right. We're getting closer everyday to solid proof as far as I can tell.

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 01:10 PM (Xm1aB)

240

Posted by: kbdabear at December 06, 2011 05:00 PM (Y+DPZ)

And I just found out Liza Murkuntski  was the lone Republican senator voting with the Dems. The stupid in this state is strong.

Posted by: Bosk at December 06, 2011 01:10 PM (n2K+4)

241 207   John Steinbeck took the title and theme of "East of Eden" from that story.

Posted by: no good deed at December 06, 2011 01:11 PM (mjR67)

242 My theory has been that many of the last 10 years or so attempts with new gun laws weren't to actually attack the 2nd amendment directly but to make it so difficult to sell guns to law abiding people that the dealers go out of business


This actually goes back to the Clinton admin. After the 1994 Crime Bill they made it so hard to get a Federal Fireams License (dealer license) that most really small dealers just folded.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:11 PM (KC2BE)

243
The Godfather is an instruction manual for Life.

Everything you need to know about life is in that movie.

The Holy Bible also.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:11 PM (sqkOB)

244

And I just found out Liza Murkuntski  was the lone Republican senator voting with the Dems. The stupid in this state is strong.

Posted by: Bosk at December 06, 2011 05:10 PM (n2K+4)

McConell should be let go as the Senate leader of the GOP for the sole reason he allowed her to caucus with them

Posted by: AuthorLMendez Is On The Newt Train Whether Becks Likes It Or Not at December 06, 2011 01:12 PM (yAor6)

245 Ruger has a bad tendancy to use too small a grip on their magnums. That means it hurts your hand to shoot full house loads. Cure is aftermarket grips.

Had that exact problem with my Ruger SRH in .454 Casull.  The heavy recoil caused the back of the trigger guard to smack painfully hard into my middle finger.  Aftermarket grips completely solved the problem.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 06, 2011 01:12 PM (SY2Kh)

246 The Godfather is an instruction manual for Life.

Everything you need to know about life is in that movie.

The Holy Bible also.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 05:11 PM (sqkOB)

I put it in my list of "classics from my parents generation that I came to see as overrated and boring"

Im more of a grandparents generation's classics kind of guy (40s and 50s)

Posted by: AuthorLMendez Is On The Newt Train Whether Becks Likes It Or Not at December 06, 2011 01:13 PM (yAor6)

247

13Why did Justice, the ATF and an alphabet soup of federal agencies facilitate the transfer of guns across the border — without the knowledge of Mexican authorities — when they knew they couldn’t trace them properly?

That's a very good question. Why indeed. It couldn't possibly be to enact ever more strict gun-control laws on United States Citizens.

" "

They did know. Remember a couple of years ago, Prez Calderon complaining that most of the guns used in the drug violence were from the US.

He was mostly right but he had the wrong specific source.

Posted by: SCOAMF Obama at December 06, 2011 01:13 PM (ulJBE)

248
So anyway, yeah, I'd love to sit next to Alec Baldwin on a plane. I'd antagonize him into a rage and then see where it goes.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:13 PM (sqkOB)

249 They are trying to combine two different dodges, neither of which is much of a help to their purpose of obscuring the truth.

The "Friday release" is aimed to getting bad news out on the weekend when fewer people are paying attention to the news.  By Monday, MSM will view anything from Friday as "old news" - especially if harmful to Democrats.  But this isn't a one-off type of story; it's a conspiracy at the highest levels of DOJ and
BATF to keep the facts from Congress and the people.  It won't be going away soon.

A "document dump" is intended to make it difficult to find anything to use because of the sheer volume of documents turned over.  It's most effective in civil discovery when one side is using a smaller law firm that may not have the resources to go over everything to find the smoking guns.  Again, this isn't the case here, and there isn't a deadline for a court filing or hearing hanging over investigators' heads.

Posted by: Adjoran at December 06, 2011 01:14 PM (VfmLu)

250

And why did Obama think he could get away with this back door attempt at weapons banning?  Here's a good clue.  The GOP is gearing up for 2012 by once again standing on their heads to say "there's nothing to fear from an Obama presidency".

http://tinyurl.com/6lragn9

"We're hesitant to jump on board with heavy attacks" personally against President Obama, Nicholas Thompson, the vice president of polling firm the Tarrance Group, said on the call. "There's a lot of people who feel sorry for him."

Recent polling data indicates that while the president suffers from significantly low job approval ratings, voters still give "high approval" to Obama personally, Thompson said.

Voters "don't think he's an evil man who's out to change the United States" for the worse--even though many of the same survey respondents agree that his policies have harmed the country, Thompson said. The upshot, Thompson stressed, is that Republicans should "exercise some caution" when talking about the president personally.

Posted by: Havedash at December 06, 2011 01:15 PM (JfvbF)

251 CUS - take classes at a reputable school. Don't depend on advice from Gun Counter Guy or Internet Gun Guy.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 06, 2011 01:15 PM (bxiXv)

252 By the way - something I am not wrong about: you only have a cover up when there is something to cover up.

Innocent people generally don't try covering up their innocence; if someone is investigating their actions they usually go out of their way to cooperate.

Everyone knew Nixon et. al. were guilty when they started stonewalling - evidently the press 40 years ago could see things that most of today's press corps prefers not to see.

The last time I checked - lying to congress was a federal crime.

I have seen some evidence that the Mexican body count in Fast and Furious is now above 300; the guns that haven't been recovered are still being fired.

And for the lefties quoting "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" as an excuse for Fast and Furious - I can only reply "Fast and Furious is not about the guns - its about people who supplied them and why they did so."

Posted by: An Observation at December 06, 2011 01:15 PM (ylhEn)

253 By the way, has the New York Times or Washington Post asked readers to help them comb through the Justice Dept. document dump to find stuff?

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 01:15 PM (Xm1aB)

254 Don't depend on advice from...Internet Gun Guy.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 06, 2011 05:15 PM (bxiXv)

THIS

Posted by: AuthorLMendez Is On The Newt Train Whether Becks Likes It Or Not at December 06, 2011 01:15 PM (yAor6)

255 We need to win in 2012

Posted by: observer at December 06, 2011 05:03 PM (wfcVz)

Psh, I'm sitting out because I am a supremely self-absorbed asshole brave patriot.

Posted by: Brave Internet "let it all burn" Warrior who is of course the one true conservative at December 06, 2011 01:15 PM (5hONg)

256 251, this.

NRA.org will get you a list of classes near you.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:16 PM (KC2BE)

257 Don't open the door if you don't want the devil to come in.

Posted by: Miguel Estrada at December 06, 2011 01:16 PM (IfkGz)

258
  My favorite revolver for plinking is Dad's Ruger Single Six (on an 1873 Army frame).  Sweet wheel gun, and ammo is still cheap.

Posted by: irongrampa at December 06, 2011 01:16 PM (SAMxH)

259 DHS drafts "environmental justice strategy"

President Obama's Department of Homeland Security (DHS) outlined an "environmental justice strategy" that would review how a variety of DHS activities, from interaction with local governments to granting regulatory permits, affect poor and minority populations.

Posted by: Miss'80s at December 06, 2011 01:17 PM (d6QMz)

260 Has anyone else noticed that Ace (who normally defends his anti-conspiracy take vociferously) has been absent from the thread?

I am thinking ace had a post a few weeks ago where he reversed himself on this one.

Posted by: Vic at December 06, 2011 01:17 PM (YdQQY)

261
CUS, since you're looking for first guns for you and the wife, you should definitely take a peek at Kathy Jackson's CorneredCat site. Originally written primarily for women, but frankly it's probably the single best starting point on the interwebs for anyone looking at entering the ranks of the armed citizenry. Highly recommended.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:18 PM (G+B5p)

262 258 great gun!

Posted by: Steevy at December 06, 2011 01:18 PM (vd4t0)

263 how did "commando" become synonymous with "no fruit of the looms?"

My understanding is from our Special Ops Forces who don't wear underwear....forget why though???

Posted by: Cheri at December 06, 2011 01:19 PM (G+Wff)

264 CUS, if you're willing to share what state do you reside in?

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:19 PM (KC2BE)

265

"My understanding is from our Special Ops Forces who don't wear underwear....forget why though???"

Chafing?

Posted by: Bosk at December 06, 2011 01:20 PM (n2K+4)

266 My understanding is from our Special Ops Forces who don't wear underwear....forget why though

In jungle environments it prevents getting the crotch rot.

Or so I heard.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:20 PM (KC2BE)

267 the land of Nod, East of Eden

Posted by: The Pirates Your Mother Fears at December 06, 2011 01:21 PM (lpWVn)

268 "Dennis Burke, then a U.S. attorney who has since resigned"
vs.
Dennis Burke, the since-fired US attorney in Arizona"

Posted by: Chuckit at December 06, 2011 01:21 PM (RfUuF)

269
movie trivia!

who said this and in which movie?

"Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual."

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:21 PM (sqkOB)

270 Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?


Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 04:46 PM (sqkOB)


First he'll explain how it was all Bush's America's fault. Not FDR mine you but the racists in the country who didn't understand the unique Japanese culture. Then he'll apologize for winning the war and dropping the a-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Which he'll pronounce with a phony accent

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 06, 2011 01:22 PM (1Jaio)

271 I did notice that he didn't include any of his "but I doubt this conspiracy nonsense" talk in the main post. Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 05:09 PM (KC2BE) It's kind of heading toward that being "gravity denialism" at this point. We still need *more*, specifically regarding individual motives and who the decision-makers were. But we have a lot.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 06, 2011 01:22 PM (bxiXv)

272 If you pull the trigger and nothing happens... pull it again.

Those Taurus' have a DA/SA trigger that will strike the recalcitrant round a second time.  That usually will get it to fire.

CUS - take classes at a reputable school.

I asked a friend of ours (soon to go into the Marines) where he and his dad go.  Not too far from the house.

And another shop close by has Women's Shooting Nights.  Good for the girlie folks to get together and blow off some steam and a few rounds.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 01:22 PM (84pE9)

273
The word "Socialist," like many other words, has been stripped of meaning.




Because we got soft and shortened the name from the original "Murderous Bloodsucking Socialist Cocksucker".

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:22 PM (G+B5p)

274
"Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual."

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 05:21 PM (sqkOB)




Bill Murray, Stripes.

C'mon, give us a tough one.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:24 PM (G+B5p)

275 @BreakingNews FAA chief Randy Babbitt has resigned, after being arrested over the weekend for DUI in Virginia - NBC News' @

Posted by: Miss'80s at December 06, 2011 01:24 PM (d6QMz)

276 Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

Given Obama tried to hold an apology ceremony at Hiroshima earlier this year (the Japanese government denied him permission, proving they're smarter than he is), I'm sure we don't want him to commemorate Pearl Harbor.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 06, 2011 01:25 PM (tqwMN)

277 CUS, if you're willing to share what state do you reside in?

Illinois.  Just outside of Chicago.

CUS, since you're looking for first guns for you and the wife, you should definitely take a peek at Kathy Jackson's CorneredCat site.

Thanks for the tip.  I will check it out when I get home.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 01:25 PM (84pE9)

278

Does that rotten cocksucker Obama have anything planned to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

Do any of you remember this?  In September 2009, US Ambassador to Japan John Roos reported to the Obama administration that the Japanese government did not think it was a good idea for President Obama to visit Hiroshima to apologize for the US having dropped an atomic bomb on that city, a secret cable published by Wikileaks revealed.

I would not put any kind of insult that the SCOAMF can pull against America against him.

Posted by: Cheri at December 06, 2011 01:25 PM (G+Wff)

279 So anyway, yeah, I'd love to sit next to Alec Baldwin on a plane. I'd antagonize him into a rage and then see where it goes.
Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 05:13 PM (sqkOB)

You people are too hard on Alec Baldwin - I thought he gave a great performance in Team America.

Posted by: An Observation at December 06, 2011 01:26 PM (ylhEn)

280 >>My understanding is from our Special Ops Forces who don't wear underwear....
Posted by: Cheri at December 06, 2011 05:19 PM (G+Wff)

Your understanding Cheri?

Alrighty then, we'll just go with that.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 06, 2011 01:26 PM (HBqDo)

281 Commie Rat Bastard has always had a certain poetry to it.

Posted by: toby928© at December 06, 2011 01:26 PM (IfkGz)

282 Has anyone else noticed that Ace (who normally defends his anti-conspiracy take vociferously) has been absent from the thread? I am thinking ace had a post a few weeks ago where he reversed himself on this one. Y'all need to reread this post, then. He doesn't speculate on the motives behind the program. He's just pointing out the lies of prior knowledge. Unless you're hanging that on Dennis Burke's email. But Burke is complaining about Grassley's doc requets as being a "stooge for the Gun Lobby." Whether you agree or not, he hasn't reversed huimself on this one. Unless you're reading

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 06, 2011 01:27 PM (vzFJV)

283 Illinois.  Just outside of Chicago

God, I'm sorry.

Tough state to be a gun owner. FOID cards and such *shudder*.

Gotta run. 6 year old has a Christmas program at school tonight.

Posted by: Scott J at December 06, 2011 01:27 PM (KC2BE)

284
Thanks for the tip.  I will check it out when I get home.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 05:25 PM (84pE9)





Doesn't that joke start out "So this Leper goes into a whorehouse.......?


Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:27 PM (G+B5p)

285 And it was all for STRICTER GUN CONTROL LAWS

Posted by: Phoenixgirl (oZfic) is cat piss at December 06, 2011 01:28 PM (SVThQ)

286 Tough state to be a gun owner. FOID cards and such *shudder*.

10 bux and an application.  You have to take a 'safety class' if you live in Chicago.  No concealed carry allowed I do believe.

Posted by: CUS at December 06, 2011 01:29 PM (84pE9)

287 Stripes. And Cheri, it's because underwear is too restrictive when your balls are that big.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 06, 2011 01:29 PM (l9zgN)

288 Hey, whatever happened to "Christo"? Did he atone for his sins? (Not that I want him back.)

Posted by: mike at December 06, 2011 01:30 PM (/8MOU)

289 Commie Rat Bastard has always had a certain poetry to it.

Posted by: toby928© at December 06, 2011 05:26 PM (IfkGz)

Kinda rolls off the tongue too.

Posted by: ErikW at December 06, 2011 01:30 PM (7qg4R)

290

Your understanding Cheri?

Alrighty then, we'll just go with that.

Posted by: ontherocks at December 06, 2011

I did date a SEAL at the time....didn't care why he didn't wear any....

 

Posted by: Cheri at December 06, 2011 01:30 PM (G+Wff)

291 And Cheri, it's because underwear is too restrictive when your balls are that big.

Tell me about it.

Posted by: Kilt Wearing Scotsman at December 06, 2011 01:30 PM (84pE9)

292 Cus is in Chicago. Son, you need to learn your place. You are supposed to take your victimhood without a wimper, its what is owed to the underclass because of their mistreatment at the hands of.......well.......whoever they tell you mistreated them, who is most likely related or an ancestor of yours. Understand?

Posted by: maddogg at December 06, 2011 01:31 PM (OlN4e)

293
Hey, whatever happened to "Christo"? Did he atone for his sins? (Not that I want him back.)

Posted by: mike at December 06, 2011 05:30 PM (/8MOU)




The Flying Spaghetti Monster ate him. Either that or he was banned for chronic douchebaggery.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 06, 2011 01:32 PM (G+B5p)

294 I don't think he posted here. I meant Buckley.

Posted by: mike at December 06, 2011 01:34 PM (/8MOU)

295 Friends, the phrase "going commando" is a verbal corruption.  The original version was "going Comanche," as the braves on the warpath hadn't acquired the paleface's undergarment habits under the buckskin.

The More You Know™...

Posted by: Keith Arnold at December 06, 2011 01:35 PM (Jdtsu)

296 Soooo, our choices are; either Napolitano and Holder are stupid and incompetent OR they're lying and incompetent.

I think the choice is obvious: resign NOW before the trials begin.

Thanks to Grassley (RINO though he is) and Issa for their perseverance and resistance to the pressure to stop.

Napolitano couldn't manage a school pedestrian crossing and Holder is lying, racist, cowardly liar who should be extradited to Mexico for Murder. (Don't try him here, it will take too long and he'll be treated more "appropriately" in Mexico.)

Posted by: Vote for me I'll set you Free! at December 06, 2011 01:35 PM (xqpQL)

297
Goin Comanche.

Indeed. It rings a bell.

Posted by: soothsayer at December 06, 2011 01:36 PM (sqkOB)

298 I'm just thinking about the reverse, if Mexico sent guns to US to escalate the violence and civilians being in the cross-fire...WW-SCOMF-D.  How is this not a terrorist act?

Posted by: auscolpyr at December 06, 2011 01:36 PM (+KmL5)

299 PJM sucks, no doubt, but 4 months ago they were the only major site (sorry Codrea and Vanderboegh, I did say major) to follow this isssue. Glad to see Ace jumping in.

Posted by: dr kill at December 06, 2011 01:37 PM (le5qc)

300 Even the MSM has pulled its head out of its ass and is starting to ask questions.

Oh...don't tease me....too much!

Posted by: Paladin at December 06, 2011 01:37 PM (4kpbt)

301 Someone in the RNC needs to compile a list of the names of all the Mexican nationals that have been killed by F&F guns, take out full page ads and billboards listing those names and remind the Hispanic community of just how hard this administration is fighting for them.

Posted by: Country Singer at December 06, 2011 01:37 PM (KgRDA)

302 Hey, whatever happened to "Christo"? Did he atone for his sins? (Not that I want him back.)

Posted by: mike at December 06, 2011 05:30 PM (/8MOU)

There was an annoying D-bag who went by "Christoph."

Not sure if he's the one you're thinking of.

Posted by: ErikW at December 06, 2011 01:38 PM (7qg4R)

303 Hey, whatever happened to "Christo"? Did he atone for his sins? (Not that I want him back.)

Posted by: mike at December 06, 2011 05:30 PM (/8MOU)

He is trying to wrap the White House in pink cloth.

Posted by: CAC at December 06, 2011 01:38 PM (5hONg)

304

The whole obama admin is a lie. They democrats want to control our lives w/ socialism, taxation and graft. The dems reward their leftwing donor freaks in hollywood and and they give blow jobs back. We the people? screwed.

Fast and furious.

solydra.

Fannie and Freddie.

Soros.

the list goes on and on.

Posted by: Juji fruit at December 06, 2011 01:39 PM (O7ksG)

305 So, how did they Comanche's protect their naughty bits if the wore no tighty whities when they rode on horses? That's got to hurt.

Posted by: mike at December 06, 2011 01:40 PM (/8MOU)

306

The nazis removed all the guns. first. The left are anti-gun freaks and it's that freakshow that gets people killed. Like they care. Fuck the left.

Posted by: Juji fruit at December 06, 2011 01:41 PM (O7ksG)

307 I'm referring to Christopher "Christo" Buckley who declared his support for Obama and quit NR.

Posted by: mike at December 06, 2011 01:42 PM (/8MOU)

308 Yeah, that worked real well for McCain didn't it.

The GOP == "we're the stupid party cause we just don't learn"

Posted by: Vote for me I'll set you Free! at December 06, 2011 01:44 PM (xqpQL)

309 From a law enforcement perspective, what's the point of allowing guns to walk to Mexico?

Posted by: Dave at December 06, 2011 05:06 PM (Xm1aB)


Well in the Bush era - co-operate with Mexico operation the idea was to use the RFID chips hidden in the guns to track them. That didn't work so the Bush admin stopped doing it.

The Obama era Fast and Furious operation simply took the Bush era program and dropped the RFID and co-operate with Mexico parts since those didn't work and went with the distribute the guns part because that did work. Liberals only want to do things which are proven to work. For instance if China invades Taiwan - the Obama administration intends to Nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki since that is a proven winning strategy.

Seriously there is no possible law enforcement strategy to Fast and Furious. The proof of that came when Dennis Burke sent ATF whistle blower agent Dodson to personally buy weapons and deliver them to a border crosser with the later admitted purpose of "dirtying Dodson up".




Posted by: An Observation at December 06, 2011 01:46 PM (ylhEn)

310 Tiny bit worrisome that the same marxist freaks that are redistributing the "wealth" are trying to take away the people's arms. Hmmmmmm.

Posted by: dagny at December 06, 2011 02:02 PM (ZzXsE)

311 298 I'm just thinking about the reverse, if Mexico sent guns to US to escalate the violence and civilians being in the cross-fire...WW-SCOMF-D.  How is this not a terrorist act?

Posted by: auscolpyr at December 06, 2011 05:36 PM (+KmL5)

Mexico already does this. You don't think the Mexican 'government' isn't allowing the cartels to run guns, money, and drugs into the country?

I have no doubt that Mexico is working with at least some of these cartels, so, frankly, I couldn't care less abouthow what ATF has done has caused problems in Mexico. Fuck that country - it's a corrupt shithole and deserves whatever it gets.

I'm more concerned about the POTUS and his AG actively working to undermine the laws of our country and the destroy the Constitution.


Posted by: Blindside at December 06, 2011 02:06 PM (x7g7t)

312 Won't it be great when we get the South Park duo to make an update to episode on this? 

Posted by: Broomy at December 06, 2011 02:07 PM (EGlZ1)

313 310 Tiny bit worrisome that the same marxist freaks that are redistributing the "wealth" are trying to take away the people's arms. Hmmmmmm. Posted by: dagny at December 06, 2011 06:02 PM (ZzXsE) Trying to take away arms from law-abiding citizens, and giving arms to narco-terrorists. They have squandered legitimate authority in a ham-handed attempt to press us involuntarily closer to their inevitable failure of a technocratic socialist utopia. And no matter how much the universe says "no," they will keep trying, at our cost.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 06, 2011 02:09 PM (bxiXv)

314

Is there any person out there that still thinks that this was not a backdoor attempt to get more gun control pushed through?  The cover up is always worse than the crime.  I mean seriously the Keystone Cops could have done a better job of it.  Or maybe even the Swedish Chef.

Posted by: Johnnyreb at December 06, 2011 02:11 PM (NNrYJ)

315 Or maybe even the Swedish Chef. Posted by: Johnnyreb at December 06, 2011 06:11 PM (NNrYJ) Don't underestimate the Swedish Chef. Bork bork bork.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 06, 2011 02:13 PM (bxiXv)

316 228 The Godfather and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.... Never saw that series, but mostly because one night flipping channels on cable I stumbled across that famous scene where the red-nosed reindeer's head was in the bed....

Posted by: A Mindful Webworker at December 06, 2011 03:36 PM (AWkD6)

317 Why do they need to cover it up? The MFM won't report on it to begin with.
Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 06, 2011 04:36 PM (1Jaio)

CBS news reporter Sharyl Attkisson broke this story; the MSM is covering it.

Posted by: An Observation at December 06, 2011 03:38 PM (ylhEn)

318 So now we know, Brian Terry's murder wasn't a bug, it was a feature.

Posted by: Great Reagan's Ghost at December 06, 2011 03:41 PM (qXVPD)

319 Watergate did not have a body count.

Neither of these can be said enough, let alone too often.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 06, 2011 04:30 PM (8y9MW)


I stole this and used it on my Twitter feed with a link to this post. Thanks!

Posted by: museisluse at December 06, 2011 03:53 PM (4Lj43)

320 305  So, how did they Comanche's protect their naughty bits if the wore no tighty whities when they rode on horses? That's got to hurt.

The thousands of women and, in cases, men raped by the Comanche over the centuries will tell you that the naughty bits worked fine.

Posted by: Zimriel at December 06, 2011 04:36 PM (6GvAC)

321 Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it. Look advanced to more added agreeable from you! However, how could we communicate?

Posted by: The Probability of Miracles ePub at December 06, 2011 04:52 PM (RT/8X)

322 Here is Holder's basic problem. Burke and Melson are the only fall guys he can come up with for this. They aren't the types to fall on their own sword for higher ups. They have both been caught lying to congress and are co-operating with the investigation. This is very bad news for Holder. Who has he got that he can blame for the felony murders committed here under color of authority?

Lies aren't going to get the job done - its too late for that to work. If Holder wasn't involved then why did Michael Walther the director of the National Drug Intelligence Center think he was? After all he sent Holder five emails on Fast and Furious starting in July of 2010. Of course that raises another question - why exactly would Mr. Walther know about it - is he in the chain of command for the BATFE? And if he knew, who else knew?

Assistant Attorney General Grindler - later to become Holder's chief of staff - got a briefing about F&F on March 12, 2010 - so he absolutely knew about it - not even Joseph Goebbels could lie his way around that. Will Holder attempt to get Grindler to hold the bag for 300 counts of Felony Murder? "My own chief of staff kept me in the dark." Yeah, that's the ticket.

Posted by: An Observation at December 06, 2011 04:52 PM (ylhEn)

323 I hope you never stop!  This is one of the best blogs Ive ever read.  Youve got some mad skill here, man.  I just hope that you dont lose your style because youre definitely one of the coolest bloggers out there.  Please keep it up because the internet needs someone like you spreading the word.

Posted by: The Probability of Miracles ePub at December 06, 2011 04:53 PM (RT/8X)

324
Excellent blog, thanks for the share. I'll be a regular viewer.

Posted by: Pretty Little Liars 10: Ruthless epub at December 06, 2011 05:14 PM (/Xfyg)

325 Wow this is soo helpful I have been trying to figure this out on my own for a long time now. Hopefully making this change will help encourage discussion on my blog.

Posted by: A Conflict of Interest AudioBook at December 06, 2011 05:28 PM (7cL99)

326 As the article says ....I really enjoy your blog. Intelligent and to the point.


Posted by: Death Comes to Pemberley ePub at December 06, 2011 05:42 PM (MOnEB)

327 I donÂ’t usually add my comments, but I will in this case. Nice work. I look forward to reading more.

Posted by: A King’s Ransom ePub at December 06, 2011 07:07 PM (wSrXY)

328 This investigation reveals why Obama appointed Big Sis as head of Homeland. She's dumb as a stump and won't ask questions.

Posted by: PJ at December 07, 2011 07:55 AM (DQHjw)

329 Fuck the ATF
Remember when the ATF offered Randy Weaver too much money to pass up to sale them a cut off shot gun. When he did they then sneak on to his property and shoot his son, his dog and killed his wife? Remember when they accused David Koresh of making machine guns then surprise attacked a church commune to get him. Once the ATF figured out how badly they fucked up by not understanding that this rural American community was going to go down fighting like real Americans the ATF proceeded to mentally torture the whole group for over a month. Then after violating every last constitutional right these people had, the ATF then decided to use a Tank which looked a lot like a flame thrower to spray "non flammable" tear gas into the building which hit a spark and miraculously burst into flames killing over 80 men women and children. All to get one man. Could have just turned off the water and power and waited for them to walk out. Now they are intentionally breaking the gun laws specifically to build a case to add more gun laws with the intention of infringing on our 2 amendment rights. Last I checked Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms were legal in this country. I think our need to balance the budget out weighs the need for this organization Fuck the ATF......Over

Posted by: HOGZ at December 07, 2011 09:53 PM (R99eV)

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