1

Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

And this is gangster government, large and in charge.

2

Nice business you got there.  Be a pity if something were to happen to it.

3 Feral describes this government well.

4 Chicago politics.

5 Not surprising, since Martin is a bunch of gangsters

6 This is such a effed up story.  There is no way the feds are going to exit this without looking like shit.  The best they can hope for is to drive the company out of business and hope that everyone connected with the company dies. 

7 damn you Vick!

8 Plus , it appears they are ready to confiscate ANYTHING with wood or ivory in it, just because they fucking feel like it. Stop these asswipes America, please.

9 6. Not true, no one will really hear about this, Martin will get away with it all, and nothing will really ensue.

10 There will be a cleansing. And it will be bloody and painful.

11

This is actualy the SECOND time they have Raided Gibson... the first time was two years ago, no charges filed, but $500K in property seized has not been returned... they now have a Lawsuit in Federal Court to get their property back..

And.... just in coincedence, they were Raided THIS time TWO DAYS before they had a hearing on the earlier case scheduled.

Our Government is out of Control...

12 Good to be back after sitting in jail for 3 days for allegedly being drunk in public. Oddly, they don't have Internet there.

13 If Gibson is guilty of trafficking in banned woods, so is Michelle Obama.  After all, she gave a guitar with frets made of banned woods to Sarkozy's wife.

14

October (2012) Surprize: Indict Bush for war crimes and extradite Cheney to the World Court to face charges of crimes against humanity.

Why not? It'll energize the base.

15 It's the Chicago Way! 

16 Aren't musicians typically a liberal bunch?  Seems odd they aren't out harassing an oil company instead.

17 Maybe the usual suspects can hold a 'Guitar Aid' event.

18 I want to see Eric Holder in shackles. And his boss too.

19 Holder, "Hey, I know!  We'll do something so incredibly insane that they'll be too busy scratching their heads to think about how many innocent people are still being killed by that clusterfuck of a bonehead plan we had to implement gun controls in this country - you remember - Fast and Furious."

20
Good thing my Strat is Mexican.
A legal one, I think.

21 Someone needs to go after the bar licenses of the attorneys involved, including Holder.

22

Martin guitars today are overpriced modest guitars. They trade on their heritage rather than their sound and playability. To a certain extent the same can be said of Gibson.

 

Gibson, like Boeing, has somehow insulted the King and courtiers and shall be punished. Too bad, since Gibson is manufactured in the US. I guess we have await the King's job plan just as soon as he finishes his vacation. I am sure there are green jobs available for luthiers. Maybe they can be trained to grease GE windmills?

23 Time to clean federal house. The list of federal agencies that need to be shut down is long. In addition, every federal officer that participaqted in this activity needs to be fired. I would love to be President after Obama so I can do the housecleaning necessary.

24 The DOJ is enforcing Indian law instead of US law?  Coincidentally, Martin has a large supply of the same wood, but have never been raided, while this is the second raid on Gibson. 

25 Badges?!? We don' need no stinkin' badges!

26 Can't be bothered with this one. I've got Gun Runners to prosecute....oh wait...

27 Don't expect Washington to ever be out of their grasp. They own Cook County and they are a malevolent presence that cannot be removed. Nobody is taking this seriously enough. I'll know they are when I hear gallows being built.

28 Where the hell is Issa anyway? Why aren't hearings going full speed ahead?

29 Hey Barry, we're gettin' the band back together.

30

At the risk of sounding like a naif, let me just say that this is outrageous! Like Hussein the Plumber pointed out earlier, this is just fucked up. Gibson's attornies need to file Writs of Habeus Corpus, and start legal proceedings to sue the Justice(?) Department for violation of Gibson's 4th and 5th amendment rights.Congress needs to begin an investigation with an eye toward impeaching that incompetent Holder immediately.

If this is allowed to stand, then we might as well just wad the Constitution up and throw it away.  

31 Oh nooo'ssss.... now I won't have a supply of ammunition to support my evvilllll deeds....

32 28
Where the hell is Issa anyway?

Why aren't hearings going full speed ahead?

Posted by: Dave at August 30, 2011 01:12 PM (Xm1aB)

Vacaycay Wingnut !

33 Issa is not pushing hard enough on Fast and Furious. Not gonna hold my breath waiting for "oversight" of this latest lawless act of Holder.

34 Gives new meaning to the gangsta rap.  or I guess we could go with the mafia pay for protection racket.

Expect more of this next year once he figures out his re-elect chances are boned.

35 CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna) Treaty totally sucks. I would not take any vintage instrument out of the USA without full documentation. The enforcement is totally arbitrary. Down to what species of abalone you use to trim the guitar.

You have idiots in the Fed deciding if something is white or pink abalone and seizing millions of dollars in goods.

36 Gibson should have installed solar panels on its guitars.  GREEN JOBS.  The feds would be subsidizing it instead of raiding it.

37 Ace, Michelle gave Carla Bruni an "illegal" guitar as a gift.

38 Heh Fuck Gibson, we have ESPs and a Kramer pacer here Flying V....okay but the others...total junk There I said it!!! Don't hate or I'll start a Teh Sarah!!! rant Damn RINOS

39 We have illegals committing crimes, serious crimes in this country and THIS is what the Dept. of Injustice is worried about?  Imported wood from India???!!!  Jesus, Mary and Joseph....we are doomed.

40 Well, America... it was nice while it lasted. Remember the GM dealer closings? Good times, good times. That story died, too. Whatever you do in business, give money to Democrats to keep the feds off your doorstep. Worked for Martin.

41 Well, if I'm ever in the market for a guitar, I know which company to patronize --and which not to.

42 I guess Holder is too busy worrying about guitars to look into Barry's illegal uncle.

43

Good thing my Strat is Mexican.
A legal one, I think.

Another Whitey strangling the neck of a Mexican while keeping his body in a tiny box. This attrocity must be stopped!

44

16 Aren't musicians typically a liberal bunch?  Seems odd they aren't out harassing an oil company instead.

My opinion: Good guitar players tend to be pretty conservative. Bad ones are always liberal. See Neil Young

45 OK, now I'm ready for Holder to be arrested

46 37 Ace, Michelle gave Carla Bruni an "illegal" guitar as a gift. Posted by: Black Licorice at August 30, 2011 01:15 PM (PFrkz) She's above the law, don't you know?

47 I want to see Eric Holder in shackles.

And his boss too.

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa _{^{*takes breath*}} aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacist!

48

Here's my question:

Rolling Stone is a leftist rag that is, ostensibly, supposed to be dedicated to the music industry (despite frequent devolution into politics).

This inexplicable raid was carried out by RS's beloved Obama administration on a high profile music industry business, Gibson Guitars.

So how will Rolling Stone report this to their slavering stoner readership?  Will they just skip over it?  Or try to paint Teh SCOAMF as blameless against the eeeeeeevil Republican-favoring Gibson management?

49

If we had a self-respecting press which regarded itself as a check on government power, this story might be getting more play.

 

But as it is, we have a one-party national media that can't die fucking fast enough.

50 Atlas Shurgged. It's a how to book to some, a terrifying dystopia to others

51

EVERY Guitar builder in America uses these woods. (Brazilian and Indian Rosewood, Ebony, and Honurand Mahogany.)

EVERY guitar built in America, ever, has used these woods.

This is not only Lacey, but C.I.T.E.S. as well.

This type of action will eliminate the ability of all collectors / guitarists from buying ANY guitar from overseas and having it imported.  This includes ALL vintage American built guitars.

Also, frets aren't made from wood, fretboards are.

52 I guess this means if you're in the market for a new guitar, buy a Gibson, not a Martin

53 We have illegals committing crimes, serious crimes in this country and THIS is what the Dept. of Injustice is worried about?  Imported wood from India???!!!  Jesus, Mary and Joseph....we are doomed.
Posted by: mpfs, TPT

No, this is payback. Martin guitars donate to democrat candidates. Gibson donates to Republican candidates. 'Nuff said.

54 Selective prosecution.

Remember morons, the Lacey act applies to every one of us.  Every time you travel across a border, you can be charged with violating the Lacey act.  You are guilty until proven innocent, too.

For example, if you take your Martin guitar to Canada, can you prove where every bit of wood on that guitar came from?

No?

Uh oh.

The federal government is out of control.  Out of control.  Now it's targeting republican businessman, Chicago style, without explaining what they are doing, and with tremendous arrogance.  They took trucks full of stuff and won't even explain why.  There has been no trial or conviction.  Just this penalty to an American business.

Drives me nuts.

There are so many laws governing every stupid little thing that every one of us is probably violating one or another.  The reason the feds didn't tell Gibson what law they broke is because THEY DON'T KNOW YET.  They will find something.  There's no doubt of that.  If it's not the Lacey Act, it'll be something else.  They can do this endlessly.

If you're a Republican business man, don't donate to Republican candidates.  That's the message.

55 Gansta Government.  Live it, love it.

56 Michelle must have a lot of pals that need guitars.

57 I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess the raid was because they don't "give enough to the right party" at the office....

58 The solution to this Chicago crap is HERE

http://tinyurl.com/3jv5d8e

59 Gibson has kept out the union, therefore in the crosshairs.

60 This is about 1/1,000,000 th as bad as taking over GM, giving ownership to unions, and closing GOP donor dealers.

Obama, the RICO President.

61 So let me get this straight. obama wants to ruin Boeing and now the guitar industry? Jobs ha?

62 A million dollar's worth of property seized, and the feds won't say why.

No explanation? Is that even remotely legal?

63 Flying V....okay but the others...total junk

There I said it!!! Don't hate or I'll start a Teh Sarah!!! rant

Damn RINOS

^{_{Posted by: Navycopjoe aka uber palinista at August 30, 2011 01:15 PM (ODWFN)}}

 

I have a Schenker C. Shop with your name on it, buddy.

64 The irony of this is that it sounds like the shit that organized crime used to do with protection rackets and stuff.  Government sponsored racketeering. 

65 @62 You're asking the wrong questions.

66 What will be the next raid by the DOJ?  Let's see....hmmmm... Dairy Queen for improper use of the Blizzard machines?  Burger King because they didn't hold the pickle or lettuce?  

We are prisoners of this regime.  2012 can't come fast enough.

67 Is that even remotely legal? Posted by: Waterhouse at August 30, 2011 01:19 PM (OK/vv) And your Social Security number is what exactly?

68
Selective fascism?

69 For most of the guys killings got to be accepted.  Murder was the only way everybody stayed in line.  You got out of line, you got whacked.  Everybody knew the rules.

70 Remember back in the high flying 90s, Bill Gates wasn't paying his tribute to politicians. The DOJ which Holder was a big part of went after Microsoft with anti-trust actions.

Right around that time, the dot-com bubble imploded

Yes, government is good for business. If you run a law firm

71 The only humbucking legally allowed in this country is in my pants.

72 And the damage is done.

You're an idiot if you build a factory in the USA.  The EPA could tell your state to stop making as much power (as they just did in Texas) or some democrat could demand a payoff to ACORN.  You just can't operate in this country and make any money.

If you're a wealthy democrat like the CEO of GE, you can make plenty with Chinese factories.  That's what's become of our country.

There's very little patriotism from the 'ruling class'.  They want their little slice of the action, and couldn't care less what the long term impact is.  40 years of this, and we're stuck with $14 trillion in debt and very little manufacturing.  Thousands of choices were made to get us here that make perfect sense if you assume someone was greedy and cynical and didn't care about this country.

Obama just made another one.  This kind of choice belongs to him just as much as Fast and Furious gun smuggling does.

73 62 A million dollar's worth of property seized, and the feds won't say why. No explanation? Is that even remotely legal? They have broken too many laws to even keep up with anymore

74 First they came for the F-22s, but I wasn't an F-22 so I didn't say anything Then they came......

75 I will require many new staff weenies investigators to pursue this obviously illegal act.

76 Michelle Obama gave the wife of French President Sarkozy a Gibson guitar so is she complicit in illegal trafficking

77 I heard Gibson's competition is a big supporter of the Obama Admin. They also import the same wood.

78 So how will Rolling Stone report this to their slavering stoner readership? Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at August 30, 2011 01:16 PM (4df7R) As a footnote in an article about the effort to control the trafficking in illegal wood by our brave and pure DOJ led by the inimitable and priest-like Eric F. Holder.

79 The only humbucking legally allowed in this country is in my pants.

Posted by: Barky the Orator at August 30, 2011 01:21 PM (/ZZCn)

No way you're quieter than a single-coil.

80 Is there a private right of action possible under the Lacey Act?

I'd love to see Michelle Obama hauled into court. 

81

If Gibson Guitars had just paid a slight premium to purchase rosewood from Martin Guitar's stock, there would have been no need for the persuasion by the feds.

Next time, Gibson will think twice about how the Chicago way really works.  You don't steal business from the Family.  The Democrat Family.

82
Obama wasn't talking to just hispanics when he said,

"We're going to punish our enemies and we're going to reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us."

83 I believe Fonzi is circling for another jump. Sparky is so dead in the water at this point. No way this doesn't migrate to the youth vote. Just sayin.

84

I'd love to see Michelle Obama hauled into court. 

Under the current laws, it is the importing of these woods that is illegal.

85

I read an article about a piano dealer facing three years in prison for selling(or was it importing?) antique pianos that had ivory keys. Forget the fact that the pianos were over a hundred years old, the DoJ busted him.

If I remember correctly, I think he got busted because he called the DoJ about the process of importing antique pianos. He wanted to make sure he did everything by the book.  But I guess he didn't realize the book makes everything illegal or subject to interpretation.

86
No explanation? Is that even remotely legal?

The Republicans will look into it right after they finish persecuting Roger Clemens for lying to the liars in D.C.

87 Just read where the spokesman for Martin last year was lamenting how frustrating is was to convince musicians to use guitars made of "sustainable materials." More political eco-terror from DOJ.

88 As a footnote in an article about the effort to control the trafficking in illegal wood by our brave and pure DOJ led by the inimitable and priest-like Eric F. Holder.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 30, 2011 01:23 PM (bxiXv)

Of course!  How could I be so blind?  There's no other scenario that makes sense.

89
Too bad they don't make guitars like the one on The Nuge's "Weekend Warriors" album cover.

http://tinyurl.com/3cvlzge

90 Look, nothing is going to happen to this crew of thugs and criminals. If the only repercussions from the Gun-Runner debacle is someone gets transferred, nothing is going to happen because some Guitar company get it's wood confiscated.

91 Reminds me of the scene in Heat where Hanna meets an informant.

Richard:  "Before we even get into that, there's something we gotta get straight. There's a garage over off Sunset and Fig'. Now if someone were to pay it a visit tonight, they might find a pair of Cayman Turbos and a 911 Slope. "

Hanna: "You're looking to rid yourself of your competition"

Richard: "I'm a good citizen"

Hanna: "And I'm Donald Duck"

92 @50 - you beat me to it, Ben.

It really does seem that Team HopeyChangey is doing all they can to provoke people to start shooting, doesn't it.

93

also, they have been doing this to production Fly-Tyers for a few decades now.

Polar Bear, Jungle Cock and certain Migratory Waterfowl feathers fall under the C.I.T.E.S. rules.

If you have any, you need to have proof of their origin and it needs to pre-date the treaty.

94

Feds: "Here's our court order to sieze your wood Mr. CEO. We won't be but a min..."

Gibson CEO: "This is nothing but a patato chip wrapper."

Feds: "Just work with us here - jeez."

 

95

>>>It really does seem that Team HopeyChangey is doing all they can to provoke people to start shooting, doesn't it.

Yes, and I hope no one does because that will be the excuse they need to put an end to any sense of democratic government, impartial legal system, or freedom we have left.

96 "Under the current laws, it is the importing of these woods that is illegal.

Posted by: garrett at August 30, 2011 01:26 PM (HksrE)"

But surely she has come back to the USA with something wooden she can't document fully.

Not that I seriously think she should be prosecuted.  But this law and a million others really are impossible to abide by.  It's all about proprietorial discretion

97 Every time you travel across a border, you can be charged with violating the Lacey act.

Burn the evidence and just say you're a Hendrix fan.

^{Except he played Fenders.}

98

These laws are going to hurt the Japanes collectors very hard.

They have a huge cache / stockpile of vintage instruments that they'll not be able to bring to the largest market in the world. 

 

99 I'd love to see Michelle Obama hauled into court. 


They would need to use a crane.

100 @95 - that's the plan, of course. And it's going, well, swimmingly.

Cloward-Piven being played to near perfection.

101 You know you want us.

102

^{Except he played Fenders.}

 

He had a 'V' that he used. 

103 We are living in a Socialist country.  I'm ashamed to type that.

104 He had a 'V' that he used.

Correctamundo. That one I pray he didn't burn.

105 Burn the evidence and just say you're a Hendrix fan
<sup>Except he played Fenders.

He also played a Gibson Flying-V</sup>

106 Welcome to the SCoaMF-ocracy.

107 Issa is not pushing hard enough on Fast and Furious.

Not gonna hold my breath waiting for "oversight" of this latest lawless act of Holder.

Posted by: Dave at August 30, 2011 01:14 PM (Xm1aB)

Exactly; he's too busy keeping his toga clean than to do what he has to do on this one.  Just another worthless fucking load from the party of stoopid.

108 @84 - okay, so let's see her agenda and flight plan.  When did she take possession of the Carla Bruni guitar and what borders did it cross? 

109 I'm pretty sure, and lawyers correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a search warrant for contraband have to state the items being searched for, and possibly why? I know when I was a cop that we had to be very specific on search warrants, and provide a copy to the person or business being searched. I guess it could be a result of some sort of secret hearing/indictment, and as such the warrant is sealed (metaphorically) until the court date.

110

That one I pray he didn't burn.

He didn't.  He used it during the 'Band of Gypsys' year(s)...I think that Paul Allen might own that one, but I am not certain.

111
The phrase "illegal wood" makes me nervous. Are you sure the feminists aren't behind this?

112 109 I'm pretty sure, and lawyers correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a search warrant for contraband have to state the items being searched for, and possibly why?

Just a supposition, disgruntled employee?

113 We are living in a Socialist country.  I'm ashamed to type that.

Posted by: formerly known as cherry pi at August 30, 2011 01:33 PM (OhYCU)

More like a fascist mob-run state, sort of like Italy under Mussolini.

114

 Martin reportedly uses the same wood

Every guitar manufacturer, all the way down to the small shops and custom luthiers, pretty much use the exact same wood.

Oh, they use a lot of different kinds of woods - on the low end stuff. Pine or agathis (which is basically cheap asian pine) or sandwiched pressboard or whatever they pull off cheap. I wouldn't be at all suprised to see variance there. BC Rich uses agathis on their low end bodies (mahogoney on the higher end - anything you want on custom shop guitars), I don't think anyone else uses agathis that I've heard of.

But on the high end stuff, well, the prestigous, desirable, high-end luxury import woods are what they are. It doesn't change from manufacturer to manufacturer - just like different faucet makers don't use different gold if you want a gold faucet.

If you want el-cheapo faucet, there may be options - cast iron, aluminum, maybe tin, plastic, ceramic.

But if you want a gold faucet, well you want gold.

And if you want a striped ebony body guitar, well you want it made out of striped ebony wood no matter who's making it.

These imported woods (especially the ones that are liable to be poached from forests abroad, meaning high-end expensive hardwood lumber), well the desirable ones are the desirable ones, totally independant from manufacturer.

East Indian rosewood, Madagascar ebony, these things are going to be used by every single guitar maker who makes high end guitars out of high-end woods.

And these are the ones pertinent to the Lacey act - nobody is importing illegal cheap wood, the whole point of cheap wood is to make it cheap and easy and simple, people do no poach cheap ass woods like pine for obvious reasons, pine sells on price point and if there's risk involved, the price is already too high - it's not desirable in it's own right, it's only used because it's cheap.

So, where the Lacey act may be relevant, bet that every other mass manufacturer has the same type of wood from the same places because they do.

There may be a few high-end oddball lumber choices on offer from one luthier and not another... probably are somewhere, in very very low volume I'm sure.

But trust me, the indian rosewood ain't one of them. Everyone uses it.

Not just Martin, but BC Rich, Fender, Carvin and all the rest, including smaller custom luthiers. 

115
Friend of mine owns one of  Entwistle's Gibsons used on the "Who Are You" sessions.

116

How long til the search and destroy mission for all the '59 Les Pauls?

117 Jesus, Mary and Joseph....we are doomed.

In the end, there will be only chaos.

118

Just a supposition, disgruntled employee?

 

Very possible. 

My guess would be a pro-union agitator. 

119

My guess would be a pro-union agitator. 

Yea, that's a better guess. I know Martin had a major strike back in the Seventies but that was before CF IV took over.

120 Just a supposition, disgruntled employee?

Disgruntled President

121 Does Hank Greenburg ring a bell? Greenburg was the Chairman and CEO of AIG until he was forced out by Client #9 over alleged insider trading. Greenburg was also a major Republican donor. He donated a large sum of money to the Bush campaign in 2000 and 2004. The CEO that replaced Greenburg was an Obama sycophant and bankrupted a $1 billion  corporation in 6 months

122

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 30, 2011 01:39 PM (QMtmy)

One of his Explorer bodied basses?  Tres cool.

 

Posted by: Lauren at August 30, 2011 01:39 PM (VKD8C)

God, I hope not.

 

123 @112 Disgruntled employee? Nah. More likely a phone call from Martin which is trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to convince musicians to purchase guitars made of "sustainable materials."

124

FWIW - Paul Reed Smith Guitars uses these woods on nearly EVERY model they make in America. 

Guitar Center must be shitting their pants right now...they are heavily invested in their 'Vintage Collection'.

They are also, bot GC and PRS, big dem boosters.

125 How is Indian Rosewood not "sustainable", it grows right?

126

Why haven't they raided Gibson's Acoustic Factory in Bozeman, Mt.?

Same company, same woods.

127 I wish Gibson would come out guns blazing, laying it all on the line. Look here America, this is why there aren't any jobs!

128

...  this is payback. Martin guitars donate to democrat candidates. Gibson donates to Republican candidates...

Ok. Then I'll never spend another dollar on a Martin product. And I'll pass the word.

129 That second amendmant is looking better every day.

130 More likely a phone call from Martin which is trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to convince musicians to purchase guitars made of "sustainable materials."

Martin and Gibson compete but mostly in the high-end acoustic guitar market. Martin hasn't made electric guitars or mandolins for a long time. Taylor is more of a competitor that Gibson.

131 Horror of horrors, they were selling guitars made from unpasteurized wood. 

132

How is Indian Rosewood not "sustainable", it grows right?

No, because all the extra carbon dioxide we're pumping out of our SUV tail-pipes KILLS ALL PLANT LIFE!!!

133 This highlights the kind of useless bullshit that we're deficit spending on.  Cut. It. All.  This is India's problem to manage.

134 More likely a phone call from Martin which is trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to convince musicians to purchase guitars made of "sustainable materials."

Posted by: Media at August 30, 2011 01:43 PM (Xm1aB)

Martin also has a large supply of rosewood, which they would have sold some for a profit to Gibson.  Since Gibson didn't play their game, they called in their Democrat Family enforcers.

135 Michelle Obama gave the wife of French President Sarkozy a Gibson guitar so is she complicit in illegal trafficking

In blood guitars.

136 Martin guitars today are overpriced modest guitars. They trade on their heritage rather than their sound and playability. To a certain extent the same can be said of Gibson.

I disagree. My weapon of choice these days is a Martin D-18 and a Gallagher G50 (basically the same design as a D-18, but with better bracing and a differently shaped neck). Modern Martins are really, really good for factory-built guitars. I'd stack them up against any instrument made by Martin since 1950 or so. Some of them even approach the "golden age" 1930's era guitars in sound. They're very, very good. Are they somewhat overpriced? Yes -- but not outrageously so, given their market. Santa Cruz, Taylor, and Guild all charge similar prices for their boutique instruments.

I'm not as familiar with Gibbies, but their semi-hollow ES-150/ES-175 are jazz classics (you still see them everywhere), and ever rock-n-roller ever born wants to sling a Les Paul goldtop or cherryburst around. Early LP's were actually kind of crappy due to a badly-designed tailpiece -- it took several years for Gibson to get the design kinks worked out. I will say that there are few guitars in the world that sound as nice as a Hummingbird or J-200 in the right hands.

137 Why don't they just plant more rosewood trees?

138 This is a test run for bigger fish to fry. If the public accepts this without major outcry then they will pull similar "raids" on bigger companies that don't share their political views. Fascism is not only rising in this country, it is being tacitly accepted.

139 Gibson's attornies need to file Writs of Habeus Corpus,
Posted by: DaveinNC
///

It's habeas corpus and I think it only applies to living human beings.

Better yet, drop a RICO suit on Martin.

140 First they regulate wood. Next they'll regulate woodies. Mark my words -- it's coming.

141 One of his Explorer bodied basses?  Tres cool.

Yes.

142 And what are the Republicans doing about this?

143

Early LP's were actually kind of crappy due to a badly-designed tailpiece --

 

The trapeze tailpiece required a very shallow neck angle that wasn't corrected until late 53 early 54.  One they went to a wrap and then a trap, they had to correct this problem for proper tuning and setup.

If you want an excellent modern acoustic - Collings and McPherson as well as the Breedlove C-Shop are making the best acoustics out there.  

Dana Bourgeouis also makes an amazing acoustic, but the production numbers are very low.

144 You're asking the wrong questions.

The kind of questions where you might find yourself in the wrong kind of wooden box.

145 Goddammit, that does it. I'm going home and have a drink.

146 @142 What are Republicans doing about this? Why, nothing. Just fucking nothing. Like we always do.

147 When Obie and his thugs get booted out of office next year, someone better line up an investigation of the Justice Dept and its current AG.

I'll bet a lot of interesting things would come to light.

148 137 Why don't they just plant more rosewood trees?

Not that easy, takes 30 to 40 years to grow. Also, the have trouble duplicating the environment to get the proper density. But, if the need help in finding dense wood, they should try Joe Biden.

149 This whole thing is bullshit. I was listening to some obama limp dick apologist saying that gibson had indian rosewood that was 10 mm thick, and indian law says no more than 6 mm thick.

Helloooo,asshole, classical bridges are indian rosewood usually, and the rosewood blanks are over 10 mm thick. They NEED to be that thick because the finished thickness runs 8-10 mm. This was harrasement, plain and simple. Nobody raided martin when they sold PRS a fucking boatload of brazilian rosewood, and that shit is like the ivory of the wood world. Back and sides for a classical guitar in brazilian can cost $1000-2000 in a blink of an eye. Did PRS get raided for buying it? Nope. Did martin get raided for having it and selling it? Nope. This isn't the whole fucking story. I collected gibsons for years, and I build guitars. PRS was making guitars with brazilian fingerboards, not a fucking peep. Gibson does it and they get reamed. They used brazilian in the 50's, that was theee rosewood to use, and they couldn't even build an accurate resissue of their 50's guitars using legally obtained brazilian because of these fucking bed wetting tree huggers. Guys like the CEO of martin are fucking assholes. The tree huggers have been targeting the guitar industry for YEARS, and scumbags like martin  go and finance the very cocksuckers who have been trying to fuck us.

150

FWIW - Paul Reed Smith Guitars uses these woods on nearly EVERY model they make in America. 

Like I said - everybody uses these woods. Everybody uses mostly the same woods.

And where they do vary in their usage, are the places where these laws would likely be least applicable.

151 @147 Never happens that way. The new administration takes the "high road" and moves on "in a new direction." As a result, official lawlessness goes unpunished.

152 I'm already in the can thanks to the 52%'ers.  Someone has to take me back out. 

153 Also, what Etropy said. Guitars (acoustic guitars, anyhow) can only be made from certain kinds of wood and still sound good. These are called "tonewoods": mahogany, rosewood, maple, koa, and I've even seen some instruments made of cherry. But the options are fairly limited. It's the same with the soundboard: you basically have spruce, cedar, and maybe mahogany. The physical properties of those woods make them superior for use in musical instruments (and not just guitars).

But the amount of wood used in guitarmaking is minuscule compared to what is used for furniture or raw lumber (or just for firewood -- I cry to think of how much Brazilian rosewood just got burned up in someone's campfire).

Brazilian rosewood is like gold to luthiers. I know guys that have hoarded a few good pieces of that stuff for literally decades waiting for just the right moment to make it into a guitar. Wayne Henderson is one of these, and R. Taylor of Taylor guitars is famous for his pre-regulatory Brazilian rosewood stash. (The downside of this, though, is that if you own or buy a guitar with Brazilian rosewood in it, you can basically never take it out of the country.)

154 Yes.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at August 30, 2011 01:53 PM (QMtmy)

 

'Meaty, Beaty, Big and Bouncy'  sounding Bass Lines came off of that thing!

I have owned a few famous axes.  The Stroup Burst being one of the more famous ones...

I almost bought the Martin Barre Burst back in the mid-late 90's...still sick over that one.

155 First they regulate wood. Next they'll regulate woodies. Mark my words -- it's coming. Sorry about the incomplete prior post- typing on a smart phone sucks- don't know how the kids do it.

156 What did dipshit Paul McCartney play at the White House? And did he bring it from England?

157 Someone should also see who Paul Reed Smith has given money to.  Paul Reed Smith makes guitars that more directly compete against Gibson's more popular models.  And Gibson sued Paul Reed Smith a few years ago and hung up his production of a very popular model for him.  So he has more motive to go after Gibson than Martin does.  PRS (Paul Reed Smith's brand) also uses exotic woods.  And he hasn't been raided.

158 Modern Martins are really, really good for factory-built guitars.

No complaints with the build quality, it's the tone I don't like. It is subjective but Martins in the D-size sound muted. Now, the OO-18s are real nice. Compressed tone with a nice ringing harmonic overtones, my buddy plays one.

159

Did PRS get raided for buying it? Nope.

 

To be fair, that stockpile was held up by the Feds until they got the proper (donations) paperwork. 

However, they didn't seize it, just made PRS set it aside until they could properly document it.

160 You know what would solve this?  If we had a Guitar Czar.  Or Maybe a Department of Guitar.  Anyway, more federal bureaucracy.

161 I told everybody when Obama said he would focus like a laser on jobs exactly what that meant. What do lasers do exactly? That is correct, sir.!

162

Nobody raided martin when they sold PRS a fucking boatload of brazilian rosewood, and that shit is like the ivory of the wood world. Back and sides for a classical guitar in brazilian can cost $1000-2000 in a blink of an eye.

Really? I thought the Brazillian rosewood was the cheaper stuff and the East Indian Rosewood was the high end stuff.

I've never actually seen anyone specify 'brazillian' on rosewood on a guitar though. The Indian rosewood certainly costs a lot more than plain "rosewood" and I assumed that was from Brazil. What is the standard fretboard rosewood?

163 The company guesses that the raid is over a claim ...

Guesses? Guesses? The raiders were under no legal compunction to have to specify why they were there and why they confiscated property?

WTF are we living? Cuba?

164 151 @147

Never happens that way.

The new administration takes the "high road" and moves on "in a new direction."

As a result, official lawlessness goes unpunished.


Funny how that works, isn't it.
Laws are for the little people.

165 Posted by: Monty at August 30, 2011 01:57 PM

Thats right on the money, all of it.

166 160 You know what would solve this?  If we had a Guitar Czar.  Or Maybe a Department of Guitar.  Anyway, more federal bureaucracy.

As longs as there is no Mandolin Czar. The Fed can have the Guitar, Banjo, Fiddle, Zither and Autoharp. Just stay away from the mandolin.

167

What did dipshit Paul McCartney play at the White House?

And did he bring it from England?

 

His 59' Paul is one of the 4 Lefty Bursts ever made. I don't know if he brought it with him to that gig, but he does travel and play with it.

(John Mcenroe owns a 1960...but it has had a lot of work done to it).

Honduran Mahogany body, Maple Top, Ebony Headstock Overlay and Brazilian Rosewood Fretboard.

 

168 Posted by: garrett at August 30, 2011 01:57 PM (HksrE)

Never owned a famous guitar, though I remember seeing Gene Simmons' autographed axe for sale in an Atlanta guitar shop in the 80's..

169 kinda OT Reading Mick Fleetwood's autobiography. Fleetwood Mac was having difficulty securing green cards for a big US tour in the late 70s because of some misdemeanor pot convictions back in the old country. Seems Senator Birch Bayh of Indiana greased the skids using his position on some committee overseeing immigration issues. Shortly after the green cards were secured, Fleetwood Mac showed up in Indianapolis to play a fundrasing concert for the good senator.

170 There are going to be great stories of shakedowns coming out. A lot of those Obama fundraisers aren't doing it out of their love of Obama. But rather they don't have the resources to fight such attacks like this. My guess is that the JEF's chief of staff demanded that Gibson hold a fundraiser with Jimmy Page headlining. They balked. And this is what they got. You know, cause those potential donors really like Jimmy Page.

171 I guess it could be a result of some sort of secret hearing/indictment, and as such the warrant is sealed (metaphorically) until the court date.

Posted by: V5 at August 30, 2011 01:36 PM (jaTaa)

You apparently are not up on current law, or the interpretations thereof.

Police can now do a ''no knock" warrant, thus never showing the warrant because you may not be there.

Police can also now perform a search WITHOUT a warrant, as long as they believe evidence will be destroyed if they wait for a warrant.

Police have also, for years, been able to SEIZE property if they think it would be used for a felony... even to the point of seizing houses if they were used by drug dealers, even if that house was owned by another person...

Put these together, and you can have the Police Seize Property, with no warrant, and never have to produce a warrant....

Yes, they will get sued EVENTUALY, but it will take years and a lot of lawyers will get wealthy before you get your property back.

172

I've never actually seen anyone specify 'brazillian' on rosewood on a guitar though.

 

You have this backwards.  

Brazilian rosewood fretboards are what makes the 1959-1962 Strats so desireable. 

Also, the Bursts, and the Pre-War Martins, and the Earliest PRS production guitars.

173 Shortly after the green cards were secured, Fleetwood Mac showed up in Indianapolis to play a fundraising concert for the good senator.

Isn't that why we elect people to office? So they can exploit the position of power use to serve the people to get free fund raising?

174 ""Really? I thought the Brazillian rosewood was the cheaper stuff and the East Indian Rosewood was the high end stuff.""

oh my god noooo. Brazilian is thee top of the food chain. Indian rosewood back and sides for a classical guitar are $60-90. Brazilian is $400 for the bottom of the barrel stump wood that looks like crap. You want stunning brazilian, I mean like the old world dark chocolate color stuff and you're gonna pay 1-2K fater than obama runs to the gold course.

175 "Exactly; he's too busy keeping his toga clean than to do what he has to do on this one.  Just another worthless fucking load from the party of stoopid.

Posted by: Captain Hate at August 30, 2011 01:35 PM (UMH09)"

Be more patient.  Sadly, there's no way to really achieve justice.  Obama is not going to be convicted with this Senate.

There are also simply too many scandals to possibly document and investigate.

There really is only one good play.  Time the real hard hitting stuff to emerge at a time much closer to the election, so voters decide to make a clean break from a corrupt president.  Whatever emerges today will be forgotten by the 52% in a year.

176 Good to see all of the Moron Guitar Herd out in force!

177 oh my god noooo. Brazilian is thee top of the food chain. Indian rosewood back and sides for a classical guitar are $60-90. Brazilian is $400 for the bottom of the barrel stump wood that looks like crap. You want stunning brazilian, I mean like the old world dark chocolate color stuff and you're gonna pay 1-2K fater than obama runs to the gold course.

Ok, guitar geek story. Martin designed the D-35 back to use 3 pieces of wood when they started running out of enough Brazilian rosewood to build the D-28 back (which uses 2 pieces). I hereby admit my geekdom.

178 No complaints with the build quality, it's the tone I don't like. It is subjective but Martins in the D-size sound muted. Now, the OO-18s are real nice. Compressed tone with a nice ringing harmonic overtones, my buddy plays one.

Part of that is just the bracing style. Dreads are traditionally supposed to be rather boomy and thin on the treble; they were built as big rhythm boxes, not for lead work. Flatpickers took to them not because they were optimal for playing lead, but because every country and bluegrass band had a D-18 or D-28 in the rhythm section. Tony Rice (a guitar god if there ever was one) led the charge in forcing a redesign of the Dreadnought to make it better for lead work: forward-shifted bracing and adjustments to both the bridge and nut spacing. Santa Cruz sells a Tony Rice D-18 clone, and you can really hear the difference between it and an older Martin D-18.

179 @175 A decent congressman could hold hearing on this regularly for the next year keeping it in the headlines. Plus, we need to finally get Holder under oath about what he knew and when. This is no time for Issa to be sitting on his fucking ass. Who cares about the Senate convicting? We want the information out--in the open--so people can know just how criminal this administration is.

180 I think they're raiding the Gibson factory because they made that "inspired by" Kiefer Sutherland guitar when 24 was so popular.

181

Also, what Etropy said. Guitars (acoustic guitars, anyhow) can only be made from certain kinds of wood and still sound good.

Yup... but I am primarily familiar with electric - and I still said that, so same goes.

I mean not really - as opposed to accoustic where the wood is huge, the tonal qualities of the wood mean jack shit on an electric IMO, so ON THE CHEAP END you'll find anything you please in those bodies. Make one out of fiberglass... it don't really matter much.

But even on electric guitars, the desirable and reputable woods are what they are. And even though I think the tonal characteristics of the wood on an electric mean jack squat, others disagree, a lot of people want good tonewoods for electric bodies anyway so that's what's used.

Plus there is just the 'nice' factor, as in you want a nice guitar, you want it made out of nice hardwood. And those are what they are.

Only on the low end you'll find some variance in body types (but not necks or fretboards, mass-produced necks are ALL maple, fretboards are mostly rosewood but occasionally maple and ebony). And that's not applicable here - nobody is poaching cheap wood.

On the high end to custom shop range, even with electrics it's still all the same woods.

182 166 160 You know what would solve this?  If we had a Guitar Czar.  Or Maybe a Department of Guitar.  Anyway, more federal bureaucracy.


Posted by: The Robot Devil at August 30, 2011 02:04 PM

Me! Me! Me!

183

Posted by: Monty at August 30, 2011 02:11 PM (/0a60)

 

I don't think a single guitar in the Tone Poems arsenal could be imported these days.

Don't forget a lot of the the Inlay materials historicaly used are also illegal under CITES.

 

184 This is a public service messege! With Guitar!

185 Santa Cruz sells a Tony Rice D-18 clone, and you can really hear the difference between it and an older Martin D-18.

I'll have to play one of those sometime. I'm a mandolin/tenor guitar (GDAE-tuned) picker but I'll play guitar one-in-a-while.

186

And even though I think the tonal characteristics of the wood on an electric mean jack squat, others disagree, a lot of people want good tonewoods for electric bodies anyway so that's what's used.

 

The EPA has curbed the use of finish techniques that would allow you to hear these differences.

Catalyzed (sp?) finishes destroy the tonal quality of the good woods.

But you can hear the difference between Rosewood, Ebony, and Maple Boards.

187 "A decent congressman could hold hearing on this regularly for the next year keeping it in the headlines.

Plus, we need to finally get Holder under oath about what he knew and when.

This is no time for Issa to be sitting on his fucking ass.

Who cares about the Senate convicting? We want the information out--in the open--so people can know just how criminal this administration is.

Posted by: Dave at August 30, 2011 02:11 PM (Xm1aB)"

Hmm.  Could Issa keep this in the headlines for a year?  Would that lead to voters thinking it's an old issue or a witchhunt?

I don't know.  I agree with you that this is basically the only recourse we have.  Bring the information to the public for political damage to Obama. 

BTW, I care very much that the Senate won't convict.  The democrats have gone far beyond any hope of dropping partisanship for the country, but it's frustrating to see no true justice for corruption.

Anyway, seeing Holder take the stand in August 2012 would be wonderful.

I'm not asking Issa to sit on his ass.  I want them to continue seeking testimony and building a case.

188

Indian rosewood back and sides for a classical guitar are $60-90

So what kind of mystery rosewood fretboards are cheaper than East Indian rosewood fretboards?

Or do they just use lower quality Indian rosewood on stock off-the-shelf guitars where they don't specifiy 'Indian'?

189 Brazilian rosewood fretboards are what makes the 1959-1962 Strats so desireable.

Most high-end fingerboards these days are made of ebony. You also have a lower-end substitute with maple (Strats use integrated neck/fingerboards made of maple).

They also used to use authentic elephant ivory in the saddle, nut, and dot-markers, but nowadays they use ivoroid or Tusq for the saddle/nut, and abalone or plastic for the inlay. Piano keys are now made out of wood primarily, or high-density epoxy, and are faced with plastic or Tusq.

190
The sound of a Travis Bean guitar blows away any Gibson or Fender.

In the studio, at least.  _imho

191

This pretty much settles the question of whether we've become a banana republic. 

192

And even though I think the tonal characteristics of the wood on an electric mean jack squat, others disagree, a lot of people want good tonewoods for electric bodies anyway so that's what's used.

 

A lot of cheaper axes you lesser woods stained to look like Rosewoods.

193

Most high-end fingerboards these days are made of ebony.

 

A lot of Acoustics, yes.

PRS uses Rosewood across the line, as do the Gibson C. Shop and Fender.

Small builders use it almost exclusively.  It has as much to do with the feel as the sound.

Ebony is slick as snot...not quite as slick as maple (which needs to be finished to be used for a fretboard.

Rosewood is unfinished and is a bit 'sticky' by comparison.

 

194

And even though I think the tonal characteristics of the wood on an electric mean jack squat, others disagree, a lot of people want good tonewoods for electric bodies anyway so that's what's used.

I'd have to disagree. Some of the denser African tone woods do add to the sustain. Also, some electrics doe have a hollow core (335, PRS); vibration resonance does play a part.

195 Posted by: Entropy at August 30, 2011 02:12 PM (IsLT6)

For solid-bodies, I agree with you. Fender Strats and Teles are made of Ash bodies with maple necks, and they sound okay. The sound is more in the pickups and electronics than the wood.

But in semi-hollow ("jazz") guitars, the wood is much, much more important. That's why you still need good body material (mahogany/rosewood body, maple or spruce top) in addition to good pickups.

196 whoops....forget to close that parenthetical statement.

197

Posted by: Dustin at August 30, 2011 02:16 PM (fF625)

Whats worse is the call to delay Justice for Political reasons... thats what the other side is doing....

An American died from a gun that our own Government allowed to illegaly cross the border... its a pure Law and Order issue about the selective enforcment of the law...

THIS issue is MUCH larger than Gunwalker, and the Repubs 'could' gain a huge amount of support by showing how the Dems are destroying the very foundation of the Republic with their NOT enforcing the laws...

Gunwalker... Obama's Exec order saying don't deport Illegals unless they are already felons... illegal EPA regualtions.... its a dem controlled Government out of control...

And the Repubs could really get the public on their side by using this arguement.... yet they don't...

198

Don't forget a lot of the the Inlay materials historicaly used are also illegal under CITES.

On classic guitars don't forget the nut either. Could be ivory.

Wouldn't want you to get arrested.

199 By 'classic' I just mean 'old' not 'classical'.

200

Wood selection on Electrics affects Attack, Sustain and Decay.

Finish is equally important as is the way the pickups / electronics are anchored to the body...or not anchored in the case of the majority of Fenders.

201 @187 Well, when I say I don't care about the Senate convicting, what I mean is I realize it isn't gonna happen. I share your revolt at the thought of the Senate failing to do its duty, but I guess that ship sailed with the Clinton impeachment.

202

But in semi-hollow ("jazz") guitars, the wood is much, much more important. That's why you still need good body material (mahogany/rosewood body, maple or spruce top) in addition to good pickups.

Yes yes, no argument. I did not specify but I should have mentioned I was talking about solid body electrics which have 0 accoustics.

Semi-hollows are like semi-accoustics kind of.

203

nish is equally important as is the way the pickups / electronics are anchored to the body...or not anchored in the case of the majority of Fenders.

That's another thing I read about - not anchored in the case of I think most major mass-produced electrics.

The pickups are mounted on springs for adjustability (and to accomodate lack of precision), and I've heard that when you do that, you nuke any chance the wood's tone qualities would transfer to the pickups even an iota because the pickups are essentially floating on shock/vibration absorbers.

I don't know about all other makers but I have Fenders and BC Rich's and they're both like that.

204

On classic guitars don't forget the nut either. Could be ivory.

 

Also Pickguards made of real Tortoise Shell.

205 ""So what kind of mystery rosewood fretboards are cheaper than East Indian rosewood fretboards?""


well the very first estaban pos's had stained particle board. lol

I'm not really sure what the fingerboards I have seen on really cheap pos's are. I know over the past few years there is a ton of different woods being looked at. Gibson actually had switched to madagascar rosewood in the early 2000's for the fingerboards on their custom shop and historic series guitars, because it had become one of the best replacements for brazilian, but you can't get that anymore because of some government takeover over there, they stopped exporting it. I have 1 classical guitar going together right now with madagascar back and sides, and it is beautiful. I got 2 more sets left and then I'm fucked.


Seriously, good grades of Indian rosewood are very nice, it became the industry standard after brazilian got banned in the 1960's. I use Indian rosewood for back and sides and it makes a nice guitar. Not as nice as brazilian or madagascar, but definitely nice.

206

Strats have Pickguard mounted Pickups.

Jazzmaster and Teles have Body Mounted Pups.

The springs are there to allow the pups to be raissed and lowered in relation to the strings.

 

207 I have an old Gibson that my Dad left me, I believe its 1910 or there about.
Its says "The Gibson" on it, L model of some kind if I remember correctly, I wonder what type of wood it is made of

208

""So what kind of mystery rosewood fretboards are cheaper than East Indian rosewood fretboards?""

 

Fender replaced the Rosewood boards on their SRV model with Pau Ferro.  It is much brighter, soundwise.

209

Posted by: MarkC at August 30, 2011 02:38 PM (yPPVC)

 

Depending on the model, likely Mahogany, Maple, and an Ebony Board.

210 well the very first estaban pos's had stained particle board. lol

Hah! It's not really a guitar thread until Estebaaaaaaaan has made an appearance! (Him and his super-cool Zorro hat.) You want someone to kick the shit out of Malaguena? Listen to Charo. Seriously. That chick is a monster on the classical guitarre. Or if you like your Malaguena southern-fried, listen to Roy Clark absolutely own that piece.

I was trying to teach the GF of a friend of mine the cowboy chords to a song she liked, and she picked up one of those plywood wonders off of QVC a number of years back. It actually didn't sound all that bad, but when we were done practicing, her fingers were damned near black -- from rubbing off the black stain on the fingerboard! (The soundboard of that guitar also rolled up and down like the waves on the ocean, and I could tell right away that the bridge would separate from the soundboard within a couple of months. It probably folded up like a card table after a few weeks.)

211 ""I have an old Gibson that my Dad left me, I believe its 1910 or there about.
Its says "The Gibson" on it, L model of some kind if I remember correctly, I wonder what type of wood it is made of"



Oh you lucky bastard. lol

It may an L-5

212 Using the unlimited resources of The State to come down like a ton of bricks on people that don't engage in the proper amount of Obama testicle gargling.

213 ""I have an old Gibson that my Dad left me, I believe its 1910 or there about.
Its says "The Gibson" on it, L model of some kind if I remember correctly, I wonder what type of wood it is made of""



Actually, can you describe it?

214 Depending on the model, likely Mahogany, Maple, and an Ebony Board.

Thanks

215

BC Rich has gone to using ebony a lot on the fretboards. I do like the ebony on a fretboard better than rosewood, because of the feel and playability, they are slick and very hard.

216

It may an L-5

Wasn't the L5 introduced in the early 20's?

217 Its kind of smallish for an acoustic.
It has kind of a sunburst finish, oval hole(If I remember correctly) and a strange v shaped neck

218 ""Wasn't the L5 introduced in the early 20's?""


yeah actually around 1923, thats why I asked later for him to describe it.

219
Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Holder is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable appointment. And reinforces the above sentiment.

220 I was thinking it might be an L4 from the early teens based on the year he listed.

221

So in all seriousness--what did King George III do that was worse?

222
207 I have an old Gibson that my Dad left me, I believe its 1910 or there about. Its says "The Gibson" on it, L model of some kind if I remember correctly, I wonder what type of wood it is made of

I'll give you $50 for it.

What?

223

LOFL on the stained pressboard.

My first guitar - I think the model was called a 'gremlin' - I got years back, I don't know if it was made in China or what. But besides the fact that the strings didn't stay in tune for long even if you DIDN'T touch the trem, because the tuners were massive fail, when I eventually opened it up for the first time it answered a lot of questions because it had 1 volume and 1 tone knob... and the tone knob was fake. No wires hooked up to it!

224 ""Its kind of smallish for an acoustic.
It has kind of a sunburst finish, oval hole(If I remember correctly) and a strange v shaped neck""


Hmm, I'm thinking L-4. because the L-1, L-2, and L-3 had round soundholes, but the L-4 had oval. That was around 1911.

225 I think it was $80 and came with a little 15W practice amp and a case, back in like 1993ish.

226

I'll give you $50 for it.

$55.

227 I'll give you $50 for it.

What?

LOL

228 Brazilian rosewood fretboards are what makes the 1959-1962 Strats so desireable.

Aren't classic 60's strats supposed to be maple fretboard?

229 Time to trade in those humbuckers for stuttering clusterfuckers.

230 ""Aren't classic 60's strats supposed to be maple fretboard?""

I'm a little foggy on fender stuff, but i thought somewhere around 58-59 the rosewood board came out. I'm not a fender guy, but I know in the 50's fender did eventually have rosewood. they had what the fender dudes called a slab board, which got changed later to a thinner board.

231 "Whats worse is the call to delay Justice for Political reasons... thats what the other side is doing...."

No it's not.  There is no justice to delay.  There is no way to reign in a truly corrupt president, especially with the Senate also corrupt.  All we have is the ballot box.

"And the Repubs could really get the public on their side by using this arguement.... yet they don't...

Posted by: Romeo13 at"

I don't know what you're talking about.  Plenty of Republicans have taken this issue to the public repeatedly.  Issa already did everything he could some time ago and was stonewalled with BS responses to subpoenas.  What's left is an independent counsel and a gambit for explosive examination of Holder (Which I bet will be blocked easily).

You act like Issa could just wrap this up in a week if he wanted to, and he actually chose instead to sit on his ass.  I don't think that's it at all.  What's really happening is that there is so much corruption that gathering up evidence is challenging, and the best recourse is to play politics.  There is nothing illegitimate about using a scandal like this politically.  The 52% really should be faced with Obama's corruption and choose whether they want more.

They won't even know about this issue unless it's made an issue closer to the election, but that doesn't mean Issa is just sitting on his ass.  In fact, there's tons of evidence that he's not.  People are moving around, releases are being sought, testimony is being given.  It's just not showtime.

Dave's right that when Clinton got away with perjury there was no going back.  We might as well just delete the impeachment section from the constitution.

232

The pickups are mounted on springs for adjustability (and to accomodate lack of precision), and I've heard that when you do that, you nuke any chance the wood's tone qualities would transfer to the pickups even an iota because the pickups are essentially floating on shock/vibration absorbers.

I Posted by: Entropy at August 30, 2011 02:30 PM (IsLT6)

The wood can still provide sympathetic resonance which can be picked up.

233

Aren't classic 60's strats supposed to be maple fretboard?

 

Nope.  54-58's. Those are the maple Boards with the sweetest necks being from 56-early 58.  (Nice 'V' shape on those.)

59- mid-late 62's 1/4 sawn Brazzy.  (Maple was a special order in those years.)

63 - 66 flat sawn rosewood (of indeterminate origin).

234

The earliest jazzmasters (8-10 of them) had a maple board (made in late 5 .  

The prototypes had a synthetic board made of a plasticized material.

235 ""63 - 66 flat sawn rosewood (of indeterminate origin).""


What the hell did they call those fingerboards? I can't remember. I know the earlier ones were called slab boards. Where the later ones called veneer?

236

Where the later ones called veneer?

Yep.

237

Posted by: Dustin at August 30, 2011 03:02 PM (fF625)

You missed the larger point I was trying to make... that the Repubs have been given an opportunity to turn this into a Law and Order Election... yet don't seem to be making it a campaign issue.

They should be on every talkshow, every week, talking about the Illegal actions coming from this Admin... yet all we hear are crickets...

No talk about Gunwalker, except from Issa.. .nothing about the de facto illegal alien amnest from Obama via exective order... nothing about Obama STILL being in contempt of Court on drilling... nothing on the administration having Obamacare ruled unconstituional, but still spending money on it (it WAS declared Unconstitutional, and unless overturned that stands, which means they SHOULD now be working from the status quo, not moving forward with it)...

Lots of basic Law and Order stuff they could talk about...

238 ...although it's a misnomer...it's just thinner and cut to reduce wood loss.

239 Yeah but wasn't the board actually bent over to make the actual radius of the fingerboard? When you look at the nut on the slab boards you see the straight line, but on the later boards you can see the curve of the bottom of the board. I'm not a fender dude, but I thought i remember them doing that for a construction detail, like maybe something involving the truss rod. I just can't remember.

240

It breaks my heart to say it, but this kind of thing is going to go on until these a**holes are voted out AND  *IF* the next administration goes after the perpetrators of what are crimes.  This makes me sick.

And they wonder why I no longer respect the law?  It's not the law, it's the selective enforcement and prosecution that I don't respect.

241

I'm not a fender dude, but I thought i remember them doing that for a construction detail

You are correct about the curvature of the board.   The reason(s) it was adopted was mostly cost, secondarily, the 1/4 sawn tended to gouge more easily than the flat sawn as you were getting end-grain.

The reality is simply that Leo was a big fan of production methodology that saved money.  You can get more boards out of the same wood by flat sawing. 

Also, 1/4 sawing required larger pieces of wood which cost more. 

This was the reason that Paul Reed Smith spec'd the early guitars with 1/4 sawn Rosewood.  They (PRS)only began using flat sawn Rosewood in 1988-9 on the Limited Edition Semi-Hollows.

242 Oh, and ____ the EPA.  Somebody needs to dismantle that whole department and fire every single person who works for it.

243 Nazi's. I hate these guys.

244

This was the reason that Paul Reed Smith spec'd the early guitars with 1/4 sawn Rosewood. 

Meaning it was what was used on the Slab Board Strats and the LP Standards.  These are the 'Grails' of electric guitars, and PRS wanted to incorporate the same construction techniques used in the most desireable vintage axes.

245 243 Nazi's. I hate these guys.

Posted by: Indiana Jones at August 30, 2011 03:29 PM (7q8S/)

Illinois Nazi's?

246 ""The reality is simply that Leo was a big fan of production methodology that saved money.  You can get more boards out of the same wood by flat sawing.""



Yeah that much I know. I use quarter sawn everything. I'm actually surprised that they went to flat sawn boards. Then again, maybe on an electric guitar with a truss rod you can get away with it, but on a  classical guitar without truss rods not using 1/4 sawn fingerboards is suicide.

247

 Then again, maybe on an electric guitar with a truss rod you can get away with it

 

This.  Also, Fenders of the era are entirely Bolt-On neckss. 

Neck gets warped, un-bolt it and slap on a new one.  Done.

On a set neck, you are in for a LOT of work to replace a waroped neck, as you know.

Honestly, though.  If Leo could eliminate a production step or save a penny, he did it.

248 My '61 Strat blonde body with Brazilian rosewood fretboard was stolen in 1974.  I love my LP but I still miss the slab.

249

My '61 Strat blonde body with Brazilian rosewood fretboard was stolen in 1974.  I love my LP but I still miss the slab.

 

Damn!  That's a rare kitten, right there.  

Gold or Nickel Hardware?

 

250 My guitar wants to kill yo mama!

I could use a name that rhymes with 'yo mama', but I don't want the Secret Service to arrest my SG.

251 ""Honestly, though.  If Leo could eliminate a production step or save a penny, he did it.""


He didn't get the name Lag Bolt Leo for nothing. lol

252

This is small taters.

The boat industry uses boatloads of tropical hardwoods. Mohogany, Teak. Plan on taking your boat cross borders?

253 All in all this whole thing pisses me off. I'm a gibson freak, I have a bunch, I just love them. This shit has gone too far, the fucking leftists attacking the wood is like the shitty lightbulb thing. Once they make it impossible to get the right woods the tone of the guitars will never be the same.

254

Once they make it impossible to get the right woods the tone of the guitars will never be the same.

 

What bothers me most is the notion that destroying the market will bennefit the enviornment.

The exact opposite is true.  We only need to look at the African Nations that allow controlled hunting to protect 'endangered' species. 

Works. Every. Time.

Limited use with premiums paid for product results in bennefits to ALL aspects of existence.

255

edit fail...

that should have read ALL.

The existence was from a deleted paragraph.

The point being, without a market, there is no reason for the localities to value the endangered species.

256

Once they make it impossible to get the right woods the tone of the guitars will never be the same.

Think he's friends with Obama? Hehehe.

http://tinyurl.com/3rrvkzl

Really though, I have no idea what they sound like but it looks pretty cool. Probably cost a boatload.

Still has a rosewood fretboard though... Madagascar rosewood according to the specs on the deluxe although it looked more like striped ebony to me in the pic.

257 They will probably sound like shit. lol

 That looks like a madagascar board, the dark lines running through the lighter wood is a characteristic of madagascar. Madagascar can also have a uniform dark color too. Its kind of all of the place. It has a distinct smell from indian rosewood, its a little more fruity smelling when you cut it.  Rosewood smells great when it's on the side bender and starts heating up.

258 ""Its kind of all of the place.""

Meant to say its kind of all over the place.

259

Well they are expensive, though not outrageous for a custom, bout $3000-4000 or so.

I'm curious. I might go over and pretend like I have money and see if I can try it out since he's local, that's how I found the site when I was looking for local custom shops a while back just out of curiosity. I'll wear a monacle or something. I'd kill myself if I spent that much on a guitar right now, and if I did it probably wouldn't be something so odd.

He does offer guitar building classes though... I may look into that. All I do is play... it'd be nice to know how to build them too, I'm a pretty novice woodworker though (sheetmetal work/welding, now that's easy though!). Any time spent learning to build the suckers would probably be better spent learning to play better.

But if I could build them, they're probably cheaper that way, so I could have nicer ones.

260

For probably 2600ish I could get a pretty wicked custom neckthrough from Warmoth or a Charvell, maybe a grand less for bolt-on. So for 4k that tin motherfucker better sound like the choir of the goddamn angels.

If all I wanted was the look of the thing mounted on my wall I could probably fab it for $200.

261

Then again, I can't even seem to convince myself to bite the bullet and go buy a Line 6 Spider amp for $500.

262

The point being, without a market, there is no reason for the localities to value the endangered species.

Moreover, if you ban it and don't provide a supply, demand still exists, prices skyrocket accordingly with risk, and skyhigh prices create even more motive for destitute locals to go poaching trees in the forest.

263 California's agencies pull this crap all the time to justify themselves and to extort money to keep their agencies funded. And California is seriously boned. But then so is the US.

264

Then again, I can't even seem to convince myself to bite the bullet and go buy a Line 6 Spider amp for $500.

 

What do you play through now?

You can find a Blues Deville used for close to that price and that's a nice point-to-point wired amp.

Not a modeling amp...but damn they sound good for the money.

265 "You missed the larger point I was trying to make... that the Repubs have been given an opportunity to turn this into a Law and Order Election... yet don't seem to be making it a campaign issue."

I think they should make a major issue of it.

But it's not as big an issue as jobs, and right now candidates are trying to win the nomination.

I will be shocked and sore if you're right.  But I doubt it.  I think they will bring up corruption extensively in the general election.

266

Yeah, right now I've got a shitty little 30W Crate practice amp. It works. Most of my stuff is really cheap.

The Line 6 will be a sound improvement over that apart from the modeling, but the built in modeling is the main reason I want it. $500 is still a lot cheaper than what all those pedals would cost, and that's what got me looking at it because I got sick of tossing down $50-150ish per pedal, especially when I wind up unsatisfied with the pedal sound and wanting another of the same type. That's really what got me looking to get a Spider, the modeling, moreso than the amp itself.

267 ""But if I could build them, they're probably cheaper that way, so I could have nicer ones.""


yeah thats what I said. lol

My problem was really good classical guitars were stoooopid money. Good grand concert guitars probably start around the 6-7K mark, with most really good ones around 10K or so. I said screeeeew that. I had built electric guitars, and I am mostly an electric guitar player, but I wanted a damn nice classical. I can't even calculate what it cost to gear up for building the classicals. I'm guessing around 5K just for the basic stuff. I had a ton of wood working stuff already, and it fucking wasn't enough. Then you got all the jigs and forms you have to build. Solid body electric guitars are way easier to build as far as the tooling and the actual steps involved , I should have stuck with that. lol

I have to say though, once you are set up, its nice to be able to build whatever you want.

268

I've been playing through the same 64 Princeton Reverb since I was 13.

The only pedal I use is a Wah.

I have an old Kustom that I use for the dirty work, now.   But it barely gets any time.

269

Crossposted :

Levin will have the Gibby CEO on at the top of the Third Hour.

270

Ouch.

The set up/tools are what I'd be most worried about, since I ain't got no woodworking tools. Building awesome solid bodies on the cheap would be plenty for me though!

And if I can manage to realize a real good deal with some resale value, I won't have nearly as much problem overcoming my natural stingyness that makes it harder to take a hundred bucks out of my pocket than teeth out of my head.

Beyond that, wood isn't too expensive, practice wood is dirt cheap, and I'm handy, even if I haven't ever done very much woodwork since highschool... definetly there'd be a learning curve.

It's a thought. I don't know if I'll ever try it. 

Why did you want a classical? Learning fingerpicking? It'd be cool to have one (not for 10 grand!) but I couldn't really do much with it, I'm freaking terrible at fingerpicking. They sound awesome though.

Those GE commercials always piss me off.  http://tinyurl.com/3ptd4re

"I didn't either". Bitch!

I'd kill to do that.

271

I've been playing through the same 64 Princeton Reverb since I was 13.

Hehe yeah, that's about how old I was when I got this Crate 30W amp and never bothered to upgrade.

Anyway I'll play a bunch of stuff, but I most like to play melodic death metal and thrash. So most of the time I've got the distortion pedal cranked to 11 with the middle scooped out, C standard or C# standard tuning on my Warlock, E standard on the Strat. Usually I just run one pedal too, but it's a distortion pedal (I have 3 of those but only ever use 1 really).

Actually don't have a wah pedal... that's one I really need to get, and probably would have been next. But the Line 6 will do it! For $500 (plus another $150 for the multi-effects pedalboard), otherwise, I'm spending probably $150 on a Crybaby anyway eventually.

Also I would really like to have a reverb pedal. If I had one of those I'd probably be running 2 pedals. And I really need a goddamn noise gate/compressor, at least with this noisy ass setup.

I don't know what the hell inspired me to go buy a flanger and a phaser and time delay I never use instead of a reverb or compressor.

For some reason when I was younger I bought a bunch of flashy extreme pedal effects that I never end up using, instead of subtler ones that I probably would have used all the time.

272

For some reason when I was younger I bought a bunch of flashy extreme pedal effects that I never end up using, instead of subtler ones that I probably would have used all the time.

 

Depending on which ones you bought, you can get your money plus out of them.

Try eBaying the ones you don't use.

Old Reverb Tanks can be had for relatively cheap if you hunt the right ones out.

 

273 dang, i work late and find all of you have been talking guitars all afternoon. not that i would have said much. i tought that i knew alittle about them until i talked with Garrett a few times. i'll just sit here and drink a cold one and listen to this.

274

i tought that i knew alittle about them until i talked with Garrett a few times.

 

That guy's an asshole.

275 alot of folks say that Racefan guy is to.

276

Not me. Everybody likes me.

Because I'm so polite and softspoken.

277 ""Why did you want a classical? Learning fingerpicking? It'd be cool to have one (not for 10 grand!) but I couldn't really do much with it, I'm freaking terrible at fingerpicking. They sound awesome though.""



Well because I used to play classical years ago, and have a background in it, but since that time I have become an eccentric guitar snob who can't deal with a student model. lol

Seriously though, the store bought ones are not made the same way as a grand concert classical, and they don't sound the same. They look the same, but are very different inside. You do find a freak once in a while, of all my store bought spanish guitars I have one that sounds almost as good as the ones I build, and thats probably due to the fact that the maker seemed to follow the old school methods. I will say though,  for just dicking around on and learning, yamaha makes a great solid spruce top classical for around $200 thats pretty hard to beat, in that range, and for $300 Cordoba makes what they call the Iberia series that has some real nice wood on it, and they play great.  I bought one because I couldn't believe the grade of cedar top they used, and the neck wood was really nice. The fit and finish and playability is great. Yeah, not a grand concert, but its really nice. Mine was the $400 one with the cutaway and has the saddle pickup and onboard tuner, but the $300 one is a straight traditional classical, and is amazing for the bucks.

278

Posted by: Racefan at August 30, 2011 07:42 PM (GuLJ9)

 

Getting a new exhaust  put on the Galaxie today...waiting for the call to go pick it up, right now.

 

 

279

Posted by: Berserker at August 30, 2011 07:50 PM (FMbng)

 

Yamaha has always made a quality, affordable, instrument.

 

280

I've solved the wood problem.

http://tinyurl.com/3ro63so

That one has an aluminum fretboard too!

281 Honestly, though.  If Leo could eliminate a production step or save a penny, he did it.

Leo Fender was the John Browning of guitars.

282

Huh, how bout that... apparently "The Electric Guitar Co." is also local to Chicago.

We've got the aluminum guitar market sewn up.

283 280

I've solved the wood problem.

Yikes, looks like a metal les paul junior double cut.

284

Yeah that one isn't so hot looking.

This one looks a lot better but it has a wood fretboard again.

http://tinyurl.com/43vtpym

I'm kind of fascinated. I did not know these things existed before I stumbled into that first site, and I didn't know anyone else was making them until today.

285

Posted by: Entropy at August 30, 2011 08:29 PM (KeJbA)

 

James Trussart has been making metal guitars for many years. 

 

286 Gibson CEO on Levin now.

287

News to me!

I mean, resonators or whatever they're called on the face, steel guitars.

But ALL metal bodies? And metal necks? That's crazy. Really cool.

288 I am not clear if I totally understand the full thought pattern behind this.

289 I went into a guitar store a few years ago and there was a guitar sitting in a washtub full of water and there was water dripping down from the head to the body.  It was graphite.  I played one, it had a nice tone.

290

Posted by: Entropy at August 30, 2011 08:44 PM (KeJbA)

 

Not ALL of his axes have metal necks, but some do.  They are NOT resonators, though.  Traditional style electrics. 

Google 'Trussart Steelcaster'.  Cool, high end, stuff.  

 There were also a few other co. making metal necks for a bit in the late 70's early 80's.

291

http://tinyurl.com/3nw3acx

Holy crap that's art.

292

Well I just went out and did a two-fer: helped the economy and protested this nonsense by picking up a new Les Paul Traditional Gold Top and a Les Paul Special with P90 p/ups in cherry red.

Get 'em while you still can...

293

It is true, this is the Chicago Way.  If you start a business in Chicago you will have to pay-off Everybody.  Unions, government, city services, community organizers,etc.  Not to mention all the fees and license, taxes.  And if you dare go against the establishment, NO BUSINESS FOR YOU!

Just ask Wal-Mart what it's like to try and open a business in Chicago.

294

For those about to rock (FINE!)

We harrass you (FINE!)

We harass you; we harass you