1 If you haven't clicked, or have and thought it was the same video some linked to last night, please click top vid in side bar.  This video is the complete video of what some of us were talking about last night.  At the very end, you see people standing on a pile of debris with water rushing all around them. 

Dear God.  I couldn't imagine.  Thank you Lord, that I can't.

2 TEPCO reported 20 mRem/hr at the site boundary during the controlled release from the containment. When they stopped venting containment the levels went back down.

3 Let me just be honest, I hate America. I really hate the American military. Who do I love? No one. Why? No one loves me.

4 The outspoken governor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara, told reporters Monday that the disaster was "punishment from heaven" because Japanese have become greedy. 

From link to Yahoo at Drudge.  Jeebus.

5
People who have not read this article linked in the sidebar about the possibility of nuclear meltdown should read it.

The bottom line is that all the hysteria in the press is bullshit.  Even if the core totally melted down, there are containments that prevent any significant radioactivity from reaching the outside. 

And by significant, I mean more radioactivity than you are subjected to every day.  People need to get over the term "radioactivity" to a certain extent.  It is all around you and you absorb it and eat it every day.

And there isn't going to be a meltdown anyways.  The nuclear reaction was stopped the moment the quake happened, and they have just been dealing with residual heat since then.

At this point, the biggest deal is just trying to salvage what they can and make less of a cleanup and PR headache for the company that owns the power station.

6 Can't Obama just command it to stop. He lowered the oceans, created peace in the Middle East, Pumping more oil out the Gulf then Bush, Mr. Nobel peace prize winner waging two wars, cured AIDS, and saved the economy from a depression although the GDP is at 2.5% and unemployment above 10%. Barack "The Second Coming of Christ' Obama and his fat ass'd Wookie Mooooooooooooooooooochel Obama are here to help you !!!

7 drewsie, thanks for the uplifting aside about the nuclear-powered USS Ronnie Reagan steaming in to deliver bed sheets and cigs for the unhappy people.

erg has, no doubt, seriously considered Fed-Exing his half eaten box of chocolate-creme Pocky to 'the unhappy people', but then realizes he can never figure out how to seal the envelope. So, as in time immemorial, erg's got nuthin.

8 Erg's compassionate Left: willing to let Japs die to stop the U.S. military from looking good.

9 It would be beneficial if all the talking head goons would refer to the fuel problems correctly. There is absolutely no evidence that any "melting" has occurred.

There is evidence that some "clad" damage has occurred when the fuel was temporarily partially uncovered. The clad is the Zr rod that contain the fuel pellets. 

10 I hate America so much I wish Japan had nuked us and won WWII.

11 Vic, is it more accurate to say 'hydrogen gas explosion' rather than 'hydrogen explosion' to stop any sort of H-bomb explosion!!!11!!!! implications from the 'hydrogen explosion' usage?

12 When you fight a war, it's best to try and get as many of your own side killed as possible. That way hatchet-faced Marxist fuckknobs can claim the moral high ground 70 years later in your name.

13

People keep misusing the word meltdown. Meltdown can be a contingency planned event in an emergency shutdown, where the fuel rods are allowed to melt down. This can take place while maintaining the integrity of the containment vessel. It is catastrophic for the power plant, but not necessarily for the environment. 

14 On the H2 "explosions" I would like to see them refer to it as something besides "the secondary containment". Those are really nothing more than corrugated sheet metal attached to steel girders with a filtered ventilation system.

They are not designed to hold any pressure.

15 >> That's a little hard to believe. Reports are that people 25 miles away felt the overnight hydrogen explosion. Keeping my fingers crossed, though

The explosion was in the building that surrounds the reactor core.  The building is meant to keep the rain and snow and sun off the operators' heads.  That is all.  There was no damage to the reactor core.

16 The plant and reactor buildings and the reactors weren't affected at all by a massive earthquake or the huge tsunami that followed (the tsunami affected the electrical generators not the reactors themselves) so I doubt the H2 gas explosion would have affected any/all the containment systems. The radiation in the area is from venting steam not from broken/leaking containment systems.

17

That's a little hard to believe. Reports are that people 25 miles away felt the overnight hydrogen explosion.

Did anyone in the media pass their intro to Physics and Reading Comprehension courses? 

They make it sound as though there's an imminent threat of a Nuclear Holocaust.

18

This is the WNN site which seems to have the most accurate and reliable data.

19 Did anyone in the media pass their intro to Physics and Reading Comprehension courses?

Modern media is show biz, not science.

20 what does this do to the opinion presented in the sidebar last night?  The nice and clear explanation of the situation didnt seem to think core meltdown was a probability. 

21 Vic, that sheet metal part of the building IS in fact secondary containment. It is designed so their safety related charcoal filtering system can take suction on the building, maintain it at negative pressure and ensure anything released from the site are released through an elevated, monitored release point. Secondary containment is addressed in Tech Spec 3.7 at a BWR.

22 You know who is a handsome man? Fidel Castro.

23 Vashta - there is no such contingency to "allow" fuel to melt. The first priority is keeping the core covered - AT ALL TIMES. You don't allow fuel to melt to save containment, as that fuel melt will eventually propogate to containment. If there comes a time when you CAN'T keep the core covered, you do take action to flood containment, but whenever cooling flow to the core is restored, that's where the water goes. There is no "allowing" fuel to melt - ever.

24 Posted by: Vic at March 14, 2011 12:41 PM (M9Ie6)

Vic is clearly the head shill for the nuclear power industry; the same industry that killed thousands of people in TMI and 100,000 + in Chernobyl.

And of course they are the heirs of the murderers of 200,000 innocent Japanese during WWII.

Throwing around "facts" to convince the sheeple that nuclear power is safe will never work. There is no such thing as a safe dose of radiation. The sun is the only power we will ever need, and it is perfectly clean.

No Nukes No Nukes!

It's for the children and Gaia!

25

But I read that they 'felt' it. To me, in English I would interpret that to feeling with my feet as opposed to 'hearing/heard' it with my ears. It's a difference of magnitude to make the earth move.

Night Air is Cold air. 

Night is earie quiet...moreso when there's no power. 

 

26 Posted by: Downscaled Upscale at March 14, 2011 12:50 PM (IhHdM)

Hydrogen is amazingly powerful. Make a liter of hydrogen, and put it into a plastic soda bottle. Just that bit of containment is enough to create an amazingly loud explosion that one can feel across the street!

27 Since I don't know all of the details on the ground, nor am I privy to any First Response resource assessment of the site, I'm now wondering if the tsunami hadn't completely wiped out all of the pumping stations, - including the piping infrastructure and backup equipment.

C'mon, fire trucks and fuel shortages at this late stage of a continuing crisis?

It seems as if TEPCO wrote this plant off from day one. 

And hey, why commit limited valuable resources to an obsolete plant when those resources can be better utilized somewhere else?

28 Posted by: deadrody at March 14, 2011 12:56 PM (Gc1ql)

LOL, I started to say something about that one but figured I would just let it ride. I never saw any such strategy in my many years as an RO/SRO. 

On the "secondary containment" yes I understand how the system works but it is designed to be under a negative pressure but is not designed for high pressure. That is why I thing calling it any kind of a "containment" is misleading to the average public person.

29 There is no such thing as a safe dose of radiation.

LOL, I know that is supposed to be snark but it IS the current philosophy with the NRC and ALARA. 

30 Fritz - the problem is a lack of POWER. From what I'm reading now it is the installed generators fuel supply that was affected by the tsunami. Diesel generators don't run too good on seawater. Without electricity it doesn't matter if you pumps are in good shape or not - they don't run. Secondary containment isn't supposed to contain pressure, but the vent piping isn't designed for 60-100 psig either. I don't know to what extent the Japanese follow GE direction, but BWRs in the US underwent "hardened vent" mods in the 1980s for this exact reason. Even so, the fans and filters STILL aren't designed for that kind of pressure.

31 You can donate to the Salvation Army's effort in Japan here. They are famous for making donations go the farthest of any charity.

32 27. Sure hope you never fly. LMAO....koolaid anyone?

33 you do take action to flood containment, but whenever cooling flow to the core is restored, that's where the water goes. There is no "allowing" fuel to melt - ever.

Posted by: deadrody at March 14, 2011 12:56 PM (Gc1ql)

The rods that hold the uranium are the first containment level. The pressure vessel in a BWR are the secondary containment.  Both of these are inside the third containment vessel, which is specifically designed to withstand a core meltdown, so it certainly is a contingency.

34 Look at this little Japanese boy.  Drudge has the picture on his page.  I don't know why, but somehow that simple picture is both sad and uplifting at the same time.

35 Socks for me, not for thee.......Weeeeeeeeee

36 What gets me is that the Japanese have experienced earth quakes and Tsunamis for 2000+ years, yet they don't seem well prepared at all. And the fucking nike plants sure as hell don't look engineered to withstand the quakes and waves that have destroyed large swaths of Japan over the ages. WTF?

37 I went to your link and read about Oyster Creek NJ folding early because of the cooling tower thing.

I used to know a guy who worked there. Too bad they are shutting it down. But the no-nukenics will use any excuse to shut them down.  Their strategy for the past 30 years has been to sue over everything and drive up the costs as much as possible.  This is just another example.

That is the primary reason no new ones have been built and why the latest energy bill had the "guarantee" of cost makeup if intervenors caused delays through the court system and drove up the cost beyond a certain point.

As for the "discharge canal" the hothole there is where all the fish hang out. Especially in the Winter.

So crank up those "low capital cost" IC turbines that cost $250/hr per 50MW plant. (or so says this "shill" for nuke power.

38 Posted by: maddogg at March 14, 2011 01:24 PM (OlN4e)

They were designed for a 7.2 earthquake and a 6.5 meter tsunami. What they got was an 8.9 earthquake and the tsunami "exceeded" 7 meters.

39

Hope this comes across ok. Its a link to abc site showing before and after pics. There is a before-after pic of the nuclear station. This was mentioned in prior thread

http://tinyurl.com/49arhx9

40 So, doesn't the whole matter come down to inadequate defense of their backup systems?

41 44 So, doesn't the whole matter come down to inadequate defense of their backup systems?

Posted by: nickless at March 14, 2011 01:35 PM (MMC8r)

Id say yes, that WAS pretty stout defense and did just fine for the 30 years or so it operated.  You learn the hard way sometimes.

42 the earthquake was 8.9 at the epicenter, right?  So probably less where the reactors are.

I can't believe they are still having trouble keeping generators running, if that is correct.  Hard to tell what accounts to believe.

43 So, doesn't the whole matter come down to inadequate defense of their backup systems?

You could say that. They did not design for the accident that occurred.

BTW, I do not understand why they only designed for 7.2. Our units are designed for more than that even in less earthquake prone regions.

But in any event, the earthquake didn't get them. The water flood contaminated the fuel oil and took out ALL the emergency diesel generators.

44 It seems as if TEPCO wrote this plant off from day one.

More than likely because it'd been scheduled for decommissioning before the quake hit.  No small amount of irony there...

45 They were designed for a 7.2 earthquake and a 6.5 meter tsunami. What they got was an 8.9 earthquake and the tsunami "exceeded" 7 meters.

Posted by: Vic at March 14, 2011 01:30 PM (M9Ie6)

Christ. That doesn't make any goddam sense. You design for worst case scenerio, because thats what you'll get. Japan has had many huge earthquakes in the past, and is on a plate boundary. The staticians are only partially to blame, the risk management people must have decided the risk was acceptable. Now look at the mess.

46 heh, not to make light of the situation, but I wish that had a few wind power stations around too, would have been interesting how they would have spun that had they gone down in a heap

47

#37 Vashta thats a good brief description of the main engineered barriers but people may be a bit confused by calling them containment.

For an early vintage BWR primary containment (or the drywell as it is commonly called) is what you called "third containment". That's US terminology and if you are in Asia I imagine your terminology may differ somewhat.

I always get a kick out of the Brits calling spent fuel shipping containers "flasks".

48

Christ. That doesn't make any goddam sense. You design for worst case scenerio, because thats what you'll get. Japan has had many huge earthquakes in the past, and is on a plate boundary. The staticians are only partially to blame, the risk management people must have decided the risk was acceptable. Now look at the mess.

Posted by: maddogg at March 14, 2011 01:42 PM (OlN4e)

There is no such thing as "worst case", it can always be a bit worse.

49 The situation sucks and the operators are doing the very best they can based on the reports.  I don't know too many people us would be able to handle two greater than designed basis casualties and a loss of site power for over three days. My heart and prayers go out to those poor bastards.

50 I can't believe they are still having trouble keeping generators running, if that is correct.

From what WNN is reporting the problem is the continued after shocked and threatened repeat tsunamis is causing them to have to interrupt feeding with the fire pumps. They never did hook up extra generators to the emergency buses because of some kind of mating problems.

8.2 The magnitude of earthquake the Fukushima nuclear plant was designed to withstand

The article on one of the nuclear sites that I read Sat morning said 7.2 but in actuality since they use a more accurate g force rating for horizontal and vertical deign limits both numbers could be accurate if use assume different vector sums. 

51

There is no such thing as "worst case", it can always be a bit worse.

Let me fucking clarify: The worst ever recorded was 9.5. In a geologically hyperactive plate boundary, like Japan, that's what you design for.

52

Let me fucking clarify: The worst ever recorded was 9.5. In a geologically hyperactive plate boundary, like Japan, that's what you design for.

Posted by: maddogg at March 14, 2011 01:51 PM (OlN4e)

And then you get hit with "fucking"  9.7

53 Regarding Fitzs comment about the company letting this happening, Japanese executives have killed themselves over less.

54

I recall from somewhere they were expecting a 'big one' in the 8.5 range within 30 years in that area--the geologists are actually a bit shocked at the magnitude of what actually did occur, as there apparently just isn't a history of it there.

The whole thing's looking a lot like a 'black swan' event, truth be told--just because you're used to a phenomenon, it doesn't follow that you'll prepare for one wildly beyond either experiences or likely forecast.  So of course since they had no idea something this bad could be coming down the pike, they weren't ready for it.  Not that I'm entirely clear how you adequately prepare for something like this, but there you have it...

55 The staticians are only partially to blame, the risk management people must have decided the risk was acceptable. Now look at the mess.

Well you pays your money and you takes your chances. From what I have been able to glean they actually did upgrade from the original design specs after the Kobe earthquake.

But as I said, the earthquake itself isn't what got them. It was the tsunami. Information on them is just now coming in from the Sumatra event of last year. They are now estimating that in some locations the wave height there was between 30 and 50 feet.

Try to imagine designing a fuel tank that witll withstand an 8.9 earthquake followed by a wall of water 50 feet high moving at 50 mph.  Keep in mind that water weighs 8 pounds to a gallon.

At some point on these things it becomes more economical to just not build or to shut it down. Look at the Oyster Creek thingy above. They reached that point there with an 800 million dollar cooling tower mod the State wanted.

56

To clarify, the previous tsunami events in the geological record were in the 8.5-8.6 range, not the 9ish monster they got.

Someone else can do the log scale on that, but the gist is it's way the frak worse than what anyone thought was going to happen.  It's the sort of thing that rewrites the books on What We Know.

57 I can't believe they are still having trouble keeping generators running, if that is correct.  Hard to tell what accounts to believe.

The NYT is saying they can't get power to the pumps, not because of lack of generators, but because the wiring closet is under water.

58

Oh, for fuck's sake.

This "don't worry, everything will be okay" attitude is beyond annoying at this point.  Look, I don't buy into the fear-mongering media -- and the linked article may be right about the safety features of the plant -- but nobody knows if the "core catcher" has been structurally compromised.  On top of that, we are assuming the equipment is functioning properly.  It could be a lot worse than anybody realizes.

All IÂ’m saying is that itÂ’s not irrational to worry about a facility thatÂ’s been hit by an 8.9 earthquake, tsunami and hundreds of aftershocks.

59 While the tsunami did "get them", it would seem noteworthy that the design has still "worked", in that it still seems harmful radiation will be contained.

I guess the design parameters are for keeping the system functional (after shutdown) at up to some level, like 7.2 and 7 meters.

But they should use the Nepalitano line  "the system worked".  They will lose one or two reactors, but so far even with the old reactors and some fumbles, it does seem to have worked.

60 "The worst ever recorded was 9.5. In a geologically hyperactive plate boundary, like Japan, that's what you design for."

This site was designed and built in the 1960's.  The reactor went on line in 1971. At that time, the entire concept of plate tectonics was just beginning to gain traction.  They had NO idea that they were right on top of a subduction fault because at the time there was no such thing as a subduction fault or a megathrust and they weren't quite sure what really caused earthquakes.

Lets not go "frame dragging" a decision made in the 1960's into the present.  What seems utterly stupid in 2011 might not have been so stupid at the time. Yes, they knew they had earthquake, but they didn't know things like continental drift, plate subduction, etc.

Actually, the fundamental problem here is electric coolant pumps.  Diani which is only a few miles away shut down fine.  They had steam turbine cooling pumps where they can use the decay heat to pump water. Daiichi doesn't.  The thing we need to do is get those 1960's first generation plants out of service and replaced with modern plants where this sort of thing wouldn't have happened.

61 Daiichi doesn't.  The thing we need to do is get those 1960's first generation plants out of service and replaced with modern plants where this sort of thing wouldn't have happened.

Posted by: crosspatch at March 14, 2011 02:05 PM (ZbLJZ)

They had planned on shutting this one down anyways right?  Were they going to replace it with newer designs or just close it down?

62 Also, the amount of decay heat is a function of how long the reactor had been running before it was shut down.  As unit 1 was due to be shut down anyway later this month, it would be logical to assume that it has been running the longest on its current fuel load.  As such, it would have the most decay heat as it had more fission products in the process of decay.   It will be the one that takes longest to get to cold shutdown.

63 59

I recall from somewhere they were expecting a 'big one' in the 8.5 range within 30 years in that area--the geologists are actually a bit shocked at the magnitude of what actually did occur, as there apparently just isn't a history of it there.

The whole thing's looking a lot like a 'black swan' event, truth be told--just because you're used to a phenomenon, it doesn't follow that you'll prepare for one wildly beyond either experiences or likely forecast.  So of course since they had no idea something this bad could be coming down the pike, they weren't ready for it.  Not that I'm entirely clear how you adequately prepare for something like this, but there you have it...

Posted by: DarkLord sez professionalism is dead! at March 14, 2011 01:57 PM (GBXon)

 

Here's my question.  As you can see from the map posted previously, we've got a reasonably moderate risk of earthquakes here in the northeast, but I guaran-damn-tee you that the majority of our buildings and infrastructure aren't built to withstand something like a severe earthquake.  Our nuclear reactors, probably, but everything else?  I doubt it.   Because there's no history for it here.  Compare that to Japan, where they have numerous earthquakes a year, but haven't had an earthquake THIS large in over 1,200 years.  By the time began on Fukushima 1 in 1966, only three of the largest recorded earthquakes over 9.0 had taken place -- Kamchatka in 1954 (9.0), Chile in 1960 (9.5), and Alaska in 1964 (9.2).   Please note that the Kamchatka earthquake was originally classified as an 8.2, not a 9.0.  By the time Chile and Alaska rolled around, paperwork was probably already underway to get the facility built.  So you have to look at their preparations in context of the time.  Could they have prepared even more?  I'm sure they could have.  But given the time period, the nuclear designs of the day, and a rising population tied to the economic boom that Japan experienced in the late Sixties, I think they did what they felt was safe and proper.  Hindsight is 20/20.

64 All the plants at that site were scheduled to be shut down.  I am not sure what the plans were at the site.

Daiichi #1:  Scheduled Shutdown 26 Mar 2011 BWR/3 MK-1 1971
Daiichi #2:  Scheduled Shutdown 18 Jul 2014 BWR/5 MK-2 1974
Daiichi #3:  Scheduled Shutdown 26 Mar 2016 BWR/5 MK-2 1976
Daiichi #4:  Scheduled Shutdown 12 Oct 2018 BWR/5 MK-2  1978
Daiichi #5:  Scheduled Shutdown 18 Apr 2018 BWR/5 MK-2  1978
Daiichi #6:  Scheduled Shutdown 24 Oct 2019 BWR/6 MK-3 1979

Daiichi #7: Under Construction Type ABWR
Daiichi #8: Under Construction Type ABWR

The Diani reactors are all BWR/6 MK-3 and entered service in the 1980's.

65 Our nuclear reactors, probably, but everything else?  I doubt it.

LOL, funny you should mention that. Many years ago the NRC went crazy with earthquake analysis rules. We had to go in an add a who bunch of new pipe hangers and supports.

We could barley walk around in some of the areas. We used to laugh that if we had that big one that would be the only thing standing because NOTHING else in the region was designed to handle ANY earthquake. Not even the damn highways.

66

Lets not go "frame dragging" a decision made in the 1960's into the present.  What seems utterly stupid in 2011 might not have been so stupid at the time. Yes, they knew they had earthquake, but they didn't know things like continental drift, plate subduction, etc.

Good point. I didn't realize the plants were 40 years old.

67 Ironic that I have to come to a moron blog to actually find someone who knows something about producing nuclear energy. Apparently CNN and Fox go to expert about nuclear energy is Bill Nye the Science Guy.

68 The fundamental flaw is electric pumps and no bypass turbine to produce any electricity from decay heat.  I don't think it occurred to them to take so many failures into account at the time:

1.  Loss of load resulting is shutting of turbines.
2.  Loss of external grid power.
3.  Loss of generators.
4.  Loss of water storage.
5.  Loss of electrical wiring from several hydrogen explosions

The tanks, buildings, pipes, poles, etc.  from between the turbine building to the beach is gone.  The tsunami wiped the place out.  These guys are basically holding these reactors together with their bare hands.

69 72. Not true, they had someone from the "Center for American Progress" on too. Soros was happy to contribute.

70 It is truly sad about having to come to a bunch of morons to get the information you need, but it isn't unexpected considering that this same bunch of morons has been dealing the truth for some time now while the MSM has been off in Left field for years now.

71 75 It is truly sad about having to come to a bunch of morons to get the information you need, but it isn't unexpected considering that this same bunch of morons has been dealing the truth for some time now while the MSM has been off in Left field for years now.

Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 14, 2011 02:40 PM (zMdEg)

I would hope the moron nation has sent some nasty-grams  to Fox regarding their horrible coverage and the guest list of fail.

72 The real worry is that unit 1 has a Mark 1 containment structure.  They aren't quite sure that a Mark 1 would be able to contain a full-on melt.  BUT, this reactor has been shut down a while.  With each passing day the maximum temperature it can produce drops.

73 I would hope the moron nation has sent some nasty-grams  to Fox regarding their horrible coverage and the guest list of fail.

I think most of the Morons here quit watching Fox on a regular basis about a year ago. For this crap I watched CNN for a while this morning and they appeared to actually do a better job than Fox.

I quit watching them too after a while because all they are doing is repeating rumors. It is Geraldo and Katrina all over again.

74 I quit watching them too after a while because all they are doing is repeating rumors. It is Geraldo and Katrina all over again.

Posted by: Vic at March 14, 2011 02:46 PM (M9Ie6)

When did the media truly die?  Was there a point that it was worth reading/watching without having to worry about the actual truth?

75 With each passing day the maximum temperature it can produce drops.

Hell, they reported a pressure of over 100 psi on Saturday and that has to be far over design pressure for that vintage CV. I always expected those things would hold a lot more pressure than they said.

76 When did the media truly die?

I think they have always lied to us, including Ed Murrow the Saint of CBS News. We just didn't know it at the time.

But it truly went off the blocks with Cronkite and his lies about the Tet Offensive. It has just got worse and worse as the jornaljism students with good hair replaced the old print reporters.

77 10 bucks says it'll blow that giant concrete lid 100 feet in the air before it cracks.

78 Well, the reactor (BWR) is supposed to operate at an internal pressure of about 75 atmospheres, which should be a bit over 1000 psi

Not sure where that pressure number was coming from. A pressurized water reactor operates at about twice that.

79 Honestly I didn't watch CNN that long. So there is they may have been doing an alright job. I turned it on yesterday evening and there was Bill Nye offering his expert opinion. I turned off when he said, "This why we need to increase scientific literacy so people understand the danger of nuclear energy." I suppose the nuclear engineers and physicists who design and operate these plants are scientific illiterate according Bill.

80 10 bucks says it'll blow that giant concrete lid 100 feet in the air before it cracks.

All the failure studies that I have seen said that the concrete would star spawlling first and then it would crack. When the inner steel sleeve failed the pressure would then relieve itself.

Deadrody probably has seen more specific stuff for that type of containment with the big plug which is most likely bolted down hugely.

81 Maybe they meant 100 atmospheres and that somehow got translated to 100 psi along the line someplace.

82 It also tickled me when they said "the coolant has reached the boiling point" because that reactor normally operates with coolant at the boiling point, that is why it is called a "boiling water reactor".

83 These guys are basically holding these reactors together with their bare hands.

I have a feeling when this disaster is over we will discover some of these nuclear plant workers are real heroes.

84 "As of 0:30 pm, the measured value of radiation dose near MP6 was 4μSv/h.
The increase of the radiation dose cannot be confirmed
at this time.

As of 0:30 pm, the measured value of radiation dose at
the monitoring post in Fukushima Daini Power Station
located approximately 10 km south of Fukushima Daiichi
Power Station remains at the same level.

In light of the incidents that have occurred at Units 1
and 3, we are considering applying prevention measures
to the wall of the reactor building to ventilate the
hydrogen gas contained in Unit 2. "

In other words, sounds to me like they are going to
punch a hole in the siding of the refueling deck of
unit #2

85 latest update from WNN

Tokyo Electric Power Company announced earlier today that unit 2's reactor core isolation cooling system had failed after an increase in pressure in the containment vessel to some 700 kPa.

The Japan Atomic Industry Forum reported back statements from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) that describe Tepco's efforts from that point.

The company prepared to pump seawater into the reactor system, but this was only started "after the water level reached the top of the fuel." The water level continued to drop and Tepco then began preparations to open a valve to vent the containment vessel.

At 8.50pm Tepco told NISA that it presumed some of the fuel rods were broken, based on radiation detected in the environment.

They have uncovered the core a second time and now have indications of clad damage.

86 Italics fail.

87 The real worry is that unit 1 has a Mark 1 containment structure.  They aren't quite sure that a Mark 1 would be able to contain a full-on melt.  BUT, this reactor has been shut down a while.  With each passing day the maximum temperature it can produce drops.

Posted by: crosspatch at March 14, 2011 02:44 PM

Wasn't there a study/risk assessment put out by NRC on this a while back?  Seems to me I read something about this not too long ago.  Isn't it one of GE's early models or something?

88 Maybe they meant 100 atmospheres and that somehow got translated to 100 psi along the line someplace.

Nah, it was reported in Kpa. The above 700 kpa is 101 psi

89 In other words, sounds to me like they are going to
punch a hole in the siding of the refueling deck of
unit #2

I'm surprised they didn't do that after #1 blew.  I guess they've been busy.  But still.

90

@93 Google BWR Mark 1 containment backfits and read to your heart's content -- and that will only scratch the surface on what you might read/learn about post TMI backfits. Yes Mark 1 containments are in early GE BWRs.

Whether or not the Japanese implemented these backfits I dont know for sure but it sounded like they did so based on what some descriptions have said.

Should probably head on over to what NRC Ops Center has posted...

91 I would think that would be a bad idea since they don't have a clue as to when it is going to explode and they could get people killed doing something that happened all on its own twice now.  I would not like to be the guy voluntold to go open up a hole in the top of that building.  Just a spark to turn them into a roman candle and if they happen to be up there when it blew then they are unlikely to find the remains.

92 "Kenneth Bergeron" was just on CNN ... seemed to have it right, indicated probably just the cladding damage so far ...

but all the host wanted to hear was "what if that failed" then "what if that failed" ...

finally got to "if they had no water at all ... "

then he got to eventually a pool of the fuel and cladding and steel vessel melting through.  then core on the floor, then failure of containment ...

finally she was satisfied with release to atmosphere, additional evacuations ... so go to break ... done with this guy.

93 finally got to "if they had no water at all ... "

Whenever people start with that kind of shit around me I ask them "what if" a 50 mile wide asteroid hits the earth and splits it like a ripe melon? Will the reactor then melt?

94

@99 - For me its the seemingly obligatory comparisons to Chernobyl even after far less severe "accidents" (Unusual Events or Alerts).

I now get to use the so does every car explode like a Ford Pinto when rearended line...

95 LOL Vic ... yeah ... that would be a worse case.

then invasion by Klingons ... they are vicious bastards

96 That must be the pressure in the secondary containment vessel, not the reactor core.  If you think of the core itself being inside ... I dunno ... like a Dewar flask, with a double walled steel containment, maybe they are talking about the pressure between the two.  This reactor, I believe, is designed to be able to flood this space with water to further cool the reactor.  Maybe that is where the pressure is because the core itself is designed to operate under normal conditions at pretty high pressure.  It has to in order to spin the turbine fast enough to generate power.   100psi is about the pressure in a truck tire.  You aren't going to generate megawatts of power from that sort of pressure.

97 Went over and looked at the BWR wiki:

" The cooling water is maintained at about 75 atm (7.6 MPa, 1000–1100 psi) so that it boils in the core at about 285 °C (550 °F). In comparison, there is no significant boiling allowed in a PWR because of the high pressure maintained in its primary loop—approximately 158 atm (16 MPa, 2300 psi)."

So I don't who where this 100 psi is.

98 100psi is about the pressure in a truck tire.  You aren't going to generate megawatts of power from that sort of pressure.

The steam/water pressure in a GE BWR runs about 1000 psi. The 100 psi is containment pressure. It is going high because they are dumping steam into containment to keep the core cool and there is no power to the containment cooling fans.

They can not use the normal cooling method until they restore offsite power.

99

The pressure is inside the containment part of the building due to the boiling of the surpression pool water casued by hot steam being quenched in the pool from the core heating it up.  Once that pool starts to boil then you need to release the pressure inside the primary containment and you do that by venting it to the secondary containment. 

If you have fuel damage or water mixing with Zr at high temps then you have some nasty stuff inside the primary that is going to be vented to the secondary.  If it is just H2 and O2 you can get an explosive mix in the secondary, which has already blown the top off units 1 & 3. 

If you also have fuel damage then you can have some fission product gases in the mix like Cs and Iodine that you have been hearing about, but the amounts depend on the amount of damage.  When the pressure is relieved these gases also make their way out of the plant and can be detected off site. 

Based on the reports there does appear to be at least some damage to the fuel on units 1&3.  The radiation levels will drop quickly if they are coming from the venting only, which has also been the case. 

If the primary were breached then you would be getting a steady stream of radioactive gas going into the atmosphere, which there has been no indication of so far. 

The operators are doing what they can based on the limitations that they have, so lets hope they will soon be rounding the corner and seeing pressures within the containments dropping.

100 Based on the reports there does appear to be at least some damage to the fuel on units 1&3

Based on that last report from WNN it looks like unit 2 is damaged as well now. I figured unit 1 for damage way back when they released that PR that the individual operating the vent valve picked up 105 mSv.

Then they started reporting I-131 and CS in air samples it there was virtual proof. Tramp Uranium in the clad would only account for a small amount in the coolant and should have been gone by the end of cycle which they were at.

101 Hmmm "Reading 5080nGy/n at Ibaraki".

http://tinyurl.com/4lj9v3l

But I don't read Japanese.

102 So 5000 nanoGray would be 5miroGray or 0.0005 miliGray.  That doesn't seem all that high.

103 I have a non-nuclear question that one of you nuclear folks maybe able to answer. Over the weekend I heard an anti-nuclear activist comment/complain that the Japanese nuclear agency has not been very forthcoming with information regarding this disaster. Is there any truth to this comment?

104 What more information do they want?  It isn't like they can open up the reactor and stick their head in there and have a look.  And most of their control and monitoring capability would be gone.

Besides, they are probably busy.

105 I really don't think it is fair to accuse a group for not being forth coming when the country and communications lay is shambles and it is hard to get accurate infromation on anything in a country that is trying to cope with thousands of dead and destruction on a bibical scale.

106 I hate their damn units. Who in the hell uses nano-Gray/s for a dose rate anyway?

We evented nuclear so they all should go to Rem like us. Besides Gray and Seiverts are too damn large of a unit.

107 Even weirder is nanoGray/n whatever n is ... I never heard of a unit of time starting with n.

108 Over the weekend I heard an anti-nuclear activist comment/complain that the Japanese nuclear agency has not been very forthcoming with information regarding this disaster.

There is the answer to your question. They are all like Democrats, chronic liars.

109 Even weirder is nanoGray/n whatever n is ... I never heard of a unit of time starting with n.

Them units at the top of the column on the left were nGy/s.

110 Hmm, this photo of #3 looks "doubleplus ungood"


http://tinyurl.com/4sojo63

111 Update from World Nuclear News: apparently, they've got all but one of the reactors in cold shutdown, and are trying to cool the third with seawater.

112 That's the Daini site, not the one that is giving them the most trouble.

113 117, that is for Daini, not Daiichi

114 @109: The "anti-nuclear activist" should be told to STFD and STFU. The government knows only that which the operators in the shit are able to tell them, and those operators kinda have their hands full dealing with a combination of events that no engineer designed for and no reactor operator trained for. From what I know of it, seems they're doing just fine with what they have to work with. The government should be working on finding them reliable power and basically nothing else. There will be plenty of time for recriminations, fingerpointing and politics later.

115 The anti nuke nuts on TV were saying "the info isn't keeping up with events"

well, that is always the case I guess, but what they were really saying was info of a serious "meltdown" was being withheld. 

But the activists were one ones pushing their poisoned info, ahead of any facts ... aka anti-nuke propaganda.

If FOX or CNN think they are just being "fair and balanced", they should at least reveal the activist side of the anti nuke "experts", as well as the real area of their "expertise".

116 If there was a "serious meltdown" you would know because information from the site would stop.

117 And by "serious meltdown" I mean containment breach.

118 Ok, looks like one unit apparently has a malfunctioning coolant level gauge which has caused some confusion.  They relieved pressure, they injected sea water, gauge showed no increase in water level but basically had to increase.  Radiation and temperatures went down, suspect faulty gauge. (from that world nuclear news site).

119 Since that was actual vessel level I would hope they had redundant level indicators. Besides that I am sure they had accident uncertainty built into their control setpoints.

LOL, Beck is on now building a demo reactor with M&M fuel pellets and describing what is going on.  He is excoriating the media. 

120 By the way, I think every American should read this, send it to your Congress critter, too:

http://tinyurl.com/4bd4u95

121 He showed a bunch of the doom articles in the papers and who they were quoting as "experts".

It turns out they are all radical leftists in Soros organizations.  Figures.

122 I know a little from reading here and several articles, but most people are flooded with the bad info from activists, so the little bits that are accurate are hard to pick out.

Beck is doing it better than the other guys ... seems right so far.

123 Well, if the water isn't coming out, and if it isn't venting steam, then the water level had to rise.  Matter doesn't just disappear, even in a nuclear reactor.

124 Most recent WNN post:

The company prepared to inject seawater into the reactor system, but this was only started "after the water level reached the top of the fuel." Guages indicated that water levels continued to drop despite the injection process and after some time injection became impossible due to high pressure.

Evidently they have lost all vessel level indication. They probably had only the ones powered from DC anyway.

125 tick tock tick tock ... they should be getting close to getting #3 cooled down by now.  I believe it has been in service with its fuel load for the shortest time.

126 I would take ANYTHING said by a politician with a grain of salt.  A large grain, at that.

127 This should get the crowd going 300 mrem measured at the gate at the plant tonight.  No other information provided.

128 300mrem per what?  300 mrem/yr is natural background radiation.

129 No other information provided.

Where did that come from?

130 Reports of explosion at Daiichi #2

Reuters

131 Ace has new nuke thread up.

132 Hearing reports of operators evacuating unit #2, no confirmation.

133 I can say for the empty suit in the WH who apparently is a clueless schmuck when it comes to a sport he should know. Fashionmonkey.org Coach Outlet Store Online

134 @139 or if you lived in Karejla India you would receive around 3 rem per year from natural radiation