Ace of Spades HQ

April 14, 2014

Game of Thrones Thread
— Ace

Commenters keep mentioning this, so okay, here's a thread.

A warning to anyone who hasn't watched the show yet: The reason people are mentioning this is because of a Major Spoiler Event.

So keep away, Spoiler-Avoiders.

I'll put up another post just above this one so that this isn't the only new thread.

George R. R. Martin wrote the script for this episode, and discusses why things happened as they did.

We all know how we wanted it to happen -- either by Arya's sword Needle, or perhaps even Sansa finally snapping and stabbing him to death with a dagger.

Instead, Martin deliberately avoided any satisfying death, because, of course, he hates his audience.

Well, because he hates his audience, and tries to avoid easy, you-knew-this-was-coming-and-wanted-it-to-come fan service.

Instead it's just another political murder, perpetrated by Who-knows-who, for who-knows-what-reason. It's smart to remind the audience that while they, as readers, have an agenda -- they'd like to see Vengeance -- other characters in the world don't give a crap about what happened to the Starks, but murder for their own convenience and ambitions.

He explains the historical inspiration for this latest murder:

I donÂ’t know how it comes across in the show, because I havenÂ’t actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used... is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking....
I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red WeddingÂ—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with [Redacted's] death was to make it look like an accident Â— someoneÂ’s out celebrating, they havenÂ’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, itÂ’s very serious.
I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. EustaceÂ’s death was accepted [as accidental], and I think thatÂ’s what the murderers here were hoping for...

Posted by: Ace at 10:57 AM | Comments (187)
Post contains 416 words, total size 3 kb.

1 Yeah, sadly we were going to watch it tonight.

So, I won't read. But, I read past comments.

bashtards

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 10:59 AM (IXrOn)

2 So, Eric Holder did it? That's what we're saying?

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at April 14, 2014 10:59 AM (Whlww)

3 Game of Thrones is the one without Saffron the InterGalactic Space Whore: Correct.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at April 14, 2014 11:02 AM (9f7ZN)

4 Floppy weiners did it!

Posted by: Insomniac at April 14, 2014 11:02 AM (DrWcr)

5
Let me just say I enjoyed seeing that. Which is a tribute to the actor to plays such a f'ing scumbag. So kudos to him.

And now that the new queen is single, I'd bone it.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at April 14, 2014 11:03 AM (hUf/y)

6 It's not really a spoiler since every one knew it was coming and wanted it to happen. You can only take so much evil from a little shit. You think Kim Sux Dix watches it?

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:03 AM (8c12T)

7 As much as I enjoy the book series (as much as one CAN enjoy a book series with so much murder and incest), I couldn't get through the most recent book. I really should pick it up and try to slog through again.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Bossy Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/i][/b] at April 14, 2014 11:03 AM (4df7R)

He wrote the script???

So then why make it so ambiguous? In the book, the culprit is obvious. We know, because it gets said as it's happening!

Why have the stupid "follow the bouncing cup" game?

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:03 AM (TOk1P)

9 I think ultimately the series will be unsatisfying because of GRRM's 'no karma' rules.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:03 AM (J7sV0)

10 i haven't seen this episode, but i willingly let it be spoiled for me...

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl at April 14, 2014 11:03 AM (u8GsB)

11 If you've read the books, you will know that Littlefinger, Lord Baelish is behind the poisoning,but it wasn't from the wine and the target wasn't Joffrey. In the book, a "pie" is laid down in front of Tyrion and then Joffrey comes over to torture him some more and takes a bite out of Tyrion's pie. Littlefinger is after Sansa

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:04 AM (32cYw)

12 Game of Thrones? Isn't that the series about internecine commercial warfare among plumping contractors in Passaic, NJ? Because if it isn't, color me disinterested. Could not stay awake for the full episode of Turn last night. With luck, I'll catch a rerun later this week after taxes are done. BBL...

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 11:04 AM (HsTG8)

13 I mentioned in the previous thread I think the show will stay true to the book regarding who was responsible. Just something that's said in the preview for next week.

Posted by: Adam at April 14, 2014 11:04 AM (Aif/5)

14 This blog isn't serious enough about issues that are important to me! Everyone here hates CDR Jeremiah Denton! (That was just sarcasm, ace)

Posted by: shredded chi at April 14, 2014 11:04 AM (8uUK+)

15 Joffrey's death is a spoiler event in much teh same way as the Red Wedding. If you're familiar with the books you aren't spoiled at all, but if not then sadly you have been now.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Bossy Assault Hobbit [/s][/u][/i][/b] at April 14, 2014 11:04 AM (4df7R)

16 So keep away, Spoiler-Avoiders. I think that screwed pooch is out of the bag , ace.

Posted by: eleven at April 14, 2014 11:05 AM (VhqUZ)

17 Sansa Stark : http://tinyurl.com/nljahdl

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 11:05 AM (5UteM)

11 -

It's been years since I read the book, but I believe you are dead wrong.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:05 AM (TOk1P)

19
Game of Thrones???

Never heard of it.

Posted by: Ragnar Lothbrok at April 14, 2014 11:05 AM (nELVU)

20 He was poisoned. When does choking cause you to bleed from your nostrils? And if you knew your heinie maneuver, you would know that if they can talk, their airway is not completely obstructed.

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:06 AM (8c12T)

21 >>>So then why make it so ambiguous? In the book, the culprit is obvious. We know, because it gets said as it's happening! no it isn't, at least not by my memory. As sandyk mentions, later on there's a bullshit, convoluted retcon (which I don't even understand or remember) in which Littlefinger claims to have been manipulating things behind the scenes. I don't remember what he claims, because I found the whole thing too stupid to credit as true.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:06 AM (/FnUH)

22 "I think the idea with [Redacted's] death was to make it look like an accident Â— someoneÂ’s out celebrating, they havenÂ’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, itÂ’s very serious."

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that, if you're attempting to make a death by poisoning look like accidental choking, you don't go ahead and use the SUPER-SEIZURE BLOOD-SPRAYING-OUT-THE-NOSE poison.

Anyway, there are only two downsides to Joffrey's death:

1. He didn't die for an hour.

2. He can't die again.

Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge at April 14, 2014 11:06 AM (issUS)

23 "plumping"? Oh, FFS! "plumbing"

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 11:06 AM (HsTG8)

24 Couldn't happen to a nicer kid though.

Posted by: eleven at April 14, 2014 11:07 AM (VhqUZ)

25 17 Sansa Stark : http://tinyurl.com/nljahdl

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 03:05 PM (5UteM)

I'd hit it.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 14, 2014 11:08 AM (DrWcr)

26 11 If you've read the books, you will know that Littlefinger, Lord Baelish is behind the poisoning,but it wasn't from the wine and the target wasn't Joffrey. In the book, a "pie" is laid down in front of Tyrion and then Joffrey comes over to torture him some more and takes a bite out of Tyrion's pie. Littlefinger is after Sansa *Book Spoilers below* The target was Joffrey and it was the wine. Littlefinger tells Sansa how the Tyrells worked with him to poison Joffrey when they realized what a psycho he was.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:08 AM (J7sV0)

27 I think ultimately the series will be unsatisfying because of GRRM's 'no karma' rules. Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 03:03 PM (J7sV0) Yeah, me too. But you can't say he didn't warn you. It's in the Title. "A Game of Thrones" If it's a game, and only a game, then anyone can win.

Posted by: naturalfake at April 14, 2014 11:08 AM (0cMkb)

28 They had to kill off Joffrey - they were running out of Starks.

Posted by: jwest at April 14, 2014 11:09 AM (u2a4R)

29 Instead, Martin deliberately avoided any satisfying death, because, of course, he hates his audience.

Well, because he hates his audience, and tries to avoid easy, you-knew-this-was-coming-and-wanted-it-to-come fan service.

----------

Yeah, but that's too clever by half. It may be a dramatic trope for a guy to get what's coming to him, but that's why drama is so dramatic. If you want to write about political assassinations coming at the hands of those who don't give two shits about anyone's agenda other than theirs, then write a documentary.

Posted by: @JohnTant at April 14, 2014 11:09 AM (PFy0L)

21 -

I seem to recall the culprit was watching for it, waiting for it to happen, then plans the rest of his plot. They already changed one aspect of that (I think, unless they change it back), but I am reasonably certain, even if it's left a little bit unclear in this particular book, by the most recent book it's stated quite clearly.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:09 AM (TOk1P)

31 I'll take gold-leafed wooden thrones for $1200, Alex. What? Wrong Game of Thrones?

Posted by: bergerbilder at April 14, 2014 11:09 AM (8MjqI)

32 The queen of thorns

Posted by: ron at April 14, 2014 11:10 AM (p0uPf)

33 I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that, if you're attempting to make a death by poisoning look like accidental choking, you don't go ahead and use the SUPER-SEIZURE BLOOD-SPRAYING-OUT-THE-NOSE poison. The Show did that so there would be some kind of payoff. The book is written where even Tyrion feels bad for Joffrey. GRRM misread (epically) what people would think abilout Joffrey's death.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:10 AM (J7sV0)

34 whose everyones remaining living character?

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl at April 14, 2014 11:10 AM (u8GsB)

35 11 If you've read the books, you will know that Littlefinger, Lord Baelish is behind the poisoning,but it wasn't from the wine and the target wasn't Joffrey. In the book, a "pie" is laid down in front of Tyrion and then Joffrey comes over to torture him some more and takes a bite out of Tyrion's pie. Littlefinger is after Sansa --- It's not made clear. Littlefinger tells Sansa he did it but the way the scene is written implies that one or more Tyrells were responsible and that the method was a jewel that Sansa unwittingly smuggled into the feast in her hairdo.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 14, 2014 11:11 AM (APuJ7)

36 Someone ought to slap that singer / piano player. That was just awful.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at April 14, 2014 11:11 AM (IN7k+)

37 With the death of Joffrey (and other events that will be shown this season), I'm not sure what my rooting interest is in this story any more. While Starks died left and right, one could still root for vengeance against the Lannisters. But the Lannisters are getting weaker and weaker. In one case, a Lannister actually becomes a Good Guy. So... Who exactly are the villains any longer?

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:11 AM (/FnUH)

38 At this point I'm rooting for Sansa and......that's pretty much it.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 11:11 AM (5UteM)

39 I guess one can still hope for vengeance against Walder Frey and Roose Bolton. But they're sort of late-emerging villains.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:12 AM (/FnUH)

40 So, now Nadine Dormer has to marry Joeffrey's little brother.

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:12 AM (8c12T)

41 But you can't say he didn't warn you. It's in the Title. The Book Series is 'A Song of Ice and Fire.' The ending will reveal this is a war between the Heat Miser and Snow Miser.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:12 AM (J7sV0)

Ok, maybe I'm crazy but from what I remember the killer was...

Tyrion. I kept waiting for him to put the poison in the cup, rather than watch it bounce all over the floor.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:12 AM (TOk1P)

43 "Rootin for Sansa." I know what you mean.

Posted by: eleven at April 14, 2014 11:13 AM (VhqUZ)

44 I was able to watch the first three seasons during OnDemands free watchathon. It was okay but not enough to make me purchase HBO to watch the fourth season. Me no likey when all the honorable people get whacked and evil prevails.

Posted by: polynikes at April 14, 2014 11:13 AM (m2CN7)

45 >>>Tyrion. I kept waiting for him to put the poison in the cup, rather than watch it bounce all over the floor. No.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:13 AM (/FnUH)

46 So is the guy who gets attacked at the end of book 5 really dead?

Posted by: Adam at April 14, 2014 11:13 AM (Aif/5)

47 Who exactly are the villains any longer? --- The White Walkers, the Freys, the Boltons, and a lot of people in Mereen.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 14, 2014 11:13 AM (APuJ7)

48 I'd hit it.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 14, 2014 03:08 PM (DrWcr)

and it's legal now since she hit 18 a couple months ago

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 11:13 AM (bStrg)

49 Mildly OT: After seeing "Mad Men", I wondered why Don's wife moved out to the Canyon. It's 1969, the year Charles Manson's little group went on their murder spree. Anyone think Megan is about to get the Sharon Tate treatment?

Posted by: naturalfake at April 14, 2014 11:13 AM (0cMkb)

50 Actually, the cat is out of the bag that none of the kids are the son of dead king robert. So, the throne goes to the guy who's hooked up to the evil redheaded witch with the huge menstrual flow??

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:14 AM (8c12T)

51 Who exactly are the villains any longer? Roose and Ramsay Bolton and the Others/White Walkers.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:14 AM (J7sV0)

Don't make me go back and re-read those damn books!

Please don't make me.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:14 AM (TOk1P)

53 >>>So is the guy who gets attacked at the end of book 5 really dead? no idea. I'm not even sure what "dead" means in the story by Book 5. "Dead" begins to become merely an inconvenience.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:14 AM (/FnUH)

54 the evil redheaded witch with the huge menstrual flow??

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 03:14 PM (8c12T)

When the hell did my ex-wife get into the plot of GoT?

Posted by: Country Singer at April 14, 2014 11:15 AM (L8r/r)

55 No. Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 03:13 PM (/FnUH Who then? Who? Who? Tell us! Tell us!

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:15 AM (8c12T)

56 The Ramsey Snow character could die horribly and that would make me happy but that's someone I'm rooting against, not for.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 11:16 AM (5UteM)

57 "Dead" begins to become merely an inconvenience. --- Tell me about it.

Posted by: Zombie Beric Dondarian at April 14, 2014 11:16 AM (APuJ7)

58 Ace threw out an off-hand comment, which is nothing if not wholly true about GRRM, and it made the following question pop into my head:

WTF is *wrong* with some Fan Service from time to time? We've seen over and over again movie and TV writers/producers/actors and modern novelists all consciously choose to ignore providing some "fan service" and produce utterly misanthropic shit that is not only not as satisfying as what could be really well done, in a more traditional manner, but can also actively cause your audience to want to roast you slowly over a large bonfire (How I Met Your Mother creators, I'm looking at you.)...

Posted by: Miller at April 14, 2014 11:16 AM (S4iiU)

59 At this point I'm rooting for Sansa and......that's pretty much it.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 03:11 PM (5UteM)

Arya (though the character went off the deep end in the books) and Catelyn Stark aka Lady Stoneheart are worth rooting for

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 11:16 AM (bStrg)

60 >>>Who then? Who? Who? Tell us! Tell us! Well there are some people here who are current on the show but not on the books, and others who are current on the books. So I don't really want to say. I shouldn't have said it wasn't tyrion.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:16 AM (/FnUH)

53 -

Yep. Not just the mulligan aspect of death, but the fluid and re-workable quality of time.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:17 AM (TOk1P)

At least Game of Thrones is a medium where porn stars can get a part in a non porn film.

Posted by: polynikes at April 14, 2014 11:18 AM (m2CN7)

63 These spoiler threads are no fun. I just can't bring myself to talk about it. Upcoming deaths are aplenty, and spectacular.

Posted by: Jay in Ames at April 14, 2014 11:18 AM (i2Lsf)

64 Interestingly, I think, the series added some information that wasn't in the book. The "Lord of Light" religion has long perplexed me, because it seemed, frequently, to be evil, and yet it was opposed to the "God of Darkness," which suggests it's "good." This last episode made it clear (and I don't think this was ever clear in the books) that it's a Gnostic religion that holds that real world is Hell and that "heaven" consists of escaping it, through death.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:18 AM (/FnUH)

65 Catelyn Stark is dead.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 11:19 AM (5UteM)

66 Dead" begins to become merely an inconvenience. ------- It's funny how much speculation there is. And some of the theories are interesting. MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS One is that he will live on but not as a human. Another is that he will survive and discover he's not Ned's son but was Ned's sisters son and his father was Rheygar. He'll end up uniting with Dany and take control of one of the dragons.

Posted by: Adam at April 14, 2014 11:19 AM (Aif/5)

67 >>>Catelyn Stark is dead. kinda

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:19 AM (/FnUH)

68 So I don't really want to say. Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 03:16 PM (/FnUH) YES, you do! Tell us! Tell us!

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:19 AM (8c12T)

69 At least Game of Thrones is a medium where porn stars can get a part in a non porn film.

Posted by: polynikes at April 14, 2014 03:18 PM (m2CN7)

Great, now I'm sitting here wondering, "What if Bob Guccione was the producer?"

Posted by: Country Singer at April 14, 2014 11:20 AM (L8r/r)

70 kinda

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 03:19 PM (/FnUH)

who would win in a tussle in bed: Lady Stoneheart or Gandolf The Grey?

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 11:20 AM (bStrg)

71 i'd like to see the hound and arya go on a huge killing rampage

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl at April 14, 2014 11:20 AM (u8GsB)

72 Great, now I'm sitting here wondering, "What if Bob Guccione was the producer?" --- Well I sure as fuck wouldn't take part in it if that were the case. Once bitten, twice shy.

Posted by: Malcolm McDowell at April 14, 2014 11:21 AM (APuJ7)

73 My recollection is that it was clear who did it in the books. But I can't remember who did it. Because, honestly, the books are terrible. And I don't watch the show.

Posted by: gm at April 14, 2014 11:21 AM (tm4aM)

74 one of the theories is that he somehow "worged" into something else, a bird or a wolf or something, and then will later worg into a dragon. which would be so f***ing stupid it'd make me really angry, but I have a feeling that's what's going to happen. a story that began as mostly a realistic alt-history thing with only some light fantasy elements is going to end up as a battle of Worgs and Dragons Against Zombies.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:21 AM (/FnUH)

75 Great, now I'm sitting here wondering, "What if Bob Guccione was the producer?"

Posted by: Country Singer at April 14, 2014 03:20 PM (L8r/r)

There'd be actual c*mshots?

Posted by: Insomniac at April 14, 2014 11:21 AM (DrWcr)

76 One is that he will live on but not as a human. Another is that he will survive and discover he's not Ned's son but was Ned's sisters son and his father was Rheygar. He'll end up uniting with Dany and take control of one of the dragons. Posted by: Adam at April 14, 2014 03:19 PM (Aif/5) who? joffrey?

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl at April 14, 2014 11:21 AM (u8GsB)

77 At this point about the only ones you can root for are: John Snow Sansa Dwarf guy Arya Maybe Dragon girl Not quite sure how any of them will inspire a satisfactory ending. I dislike Jamie(?) Lannister as turning into a hero. Yeah, he got his hand lopped off, but boo-hoo, he's caused lots of unnecessary pain and death of his own.

Posted by: naturalfake at April 14, 2014 11:21 AM (0cMkb)

78 phoenixgirl don't ask; it's a major spoiler, two seasons away.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:22 AM (/FnUH)

79 There'd be actual c*mshots?

Posted by: Insomniac at April 14, 2014 03:21 PM (DrWcr)

and pissing, you forgot about the pissing

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 11:23 AM (bStrg)

80 who? joffrey? ------- No, I'm talking about something that happened in the last book.

Posted by: Adam at April 14, 2014 11:23 AM (Aif/5)

81 >>>I dislike Jamie(?) Lannister as turning into a hero. Yeah, he got his hand lopped off, but boo-hoo, he's caused lots of unnecessary pain and death of his own. ... yeah I don't get that. His turn towards honor is a bit abrupt. But... I guess the only REALLY bad thing he did was attempt to kill Brandon Stark. Maybe, who knows, it was an impulse, panic-move. Maybe he never really was all that "bad."

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:23 AM (/FnUH)

82 78 phoenixgirl don't ask; it's a major spoiler, two seasons away. --- Not necessarily two seasons away. They're taking bits and pieces of books 3-5 and trying to put them in somewhat chronological order. They may decide that the incident in question happens much sooner than some of the events in other parts of the world.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 14, 2014 11:23 AM (APuJ7)

83 67 >>>Catelyn Stark is dead.

kinda Posted by: ace

WHAT???

I mean don't tell me but....WHAT???

Unless it's like 3 seasons away from the reveal, then spill.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 11:23 AM (5UteM)

84 Poor Theo! Sure he is an ahole but boy did he get taken down a peg or two. Waiting for his sister to come rescue him. Maybe, she can reattach his wang?

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:24 AM (8c12T)

85 37 Who exactly are the villains any longer? I saw a fucking black smoke demon climb out of a redhead's snatch and then kill a guy. I'm with those people.

Posted by: akula51[/b][/i][/s] at April 14, 2014 11:24 AM (Whlww)

86 I was just being silly, because Catelyn and Robb were so thoroughly executed.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:24 AM (/FnUH)

87 At this point about the only ones you can root for are:

Maybe Dragon girl

Posted by: naturalfake at April 14, 2014 03:21 PM (0cMkb)

Daenerys Stormborn. The scene where she comes out of the fire with the dragon hatchlings is a bunkable moment.

Posted by: Country Singer at April 14, 2014 11:24 AM (L8r/r)

Do the books do the physical girl power aspects as much as the HBO series? The girl knight, the girl ship captain, the young stark girl, Snow's killer girlfriend.

Posted by: polynikes at April 14, 2014 11:25 AM (m2CN7)

89 yeah I don't get that. His turn towards honor is a bit abrupt. But... I guess the only REALLY bad thing he did was attempt to kill Brandon Stark. Maybe, who knows, it was an impulse, panic-move. Maybe he never really was all that "bad." --- The books expand on this quite a bit. A lot of it has to do with him being away from Cersei, who is unquestionably a bad influence on anyone she's near.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 14, 2014 11:25 AM (APuJ7)

90 Jamie's turn to honor has a lot to do with him spending a good amount of time with an actual honorable knight, Brianne of Tarth. Kinda like a liberal starting a business.

Posted by: Jay in Ames at April 14, 2014 11:25 AM (i2Lsf)

91 >>>a story that began as mostly a realistic alt-history thing with only some light fantasy elements is going to end up as a battle of Worgs and Dragons Against Zombies. Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 03:21 PM (/FnUH)>>> The story is alright. The writing is terrible. He should have hired a ghost writer.

Posted by: gm at April 14, 2014 11:25 AM (tm4aM)

92 ace ok, fine...i want to know but i don't want to know

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl at April 14, 2014 11:25 AM (u8GsB)

93 Maybe he never really was all that "bad." Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 03:23 PM (/FnUH) He fucked his sister, Ace. All of her kids are his. Wasn't much of a father to them, either.

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:26 AM (8c12T)

94 Upcoming deaths are aplenty, and spectacular. Posted by: Jay in Ames at April 14, 2014 03:18 PM (i2Lsf) I don't see how this season could avoid being one long bloodbath with all the bad blood, treacheries, and blood debts that need to be paid.

Posted by: naturalfake at April 14, 2014 11:26 AM (0cMkb)

95 >>>Kinda like a liberal starting a business. Posted by: Jay in Ames at April 14, 2014 03:25 PM (i2Lsf)>>> I doubt that's what Martins was going for since he's a commie.

Posted by: gm at April 14, 2014 11:26 AM (tm4aM)

96 58 Ace threw out an off-hand comment, which is nothing if not wholly true about GRRM, and it made the following question pop into my head: WTF is *wrong* with some Fan Service from time to time? We've seen over and over again movie and TV writers/producers/actors and modern novelists all consciously choose to ignore providing some "fan service" and produce utterly misanthropic shit that is not only not as satisfying as what could be really well done, in a more traditional manner, but can also actively cause your audience to want to roast you slowly over a large bonfire (How I Met Your Mother creators, I'm looking at you.)... Posted by: Miller at April 14, 2014 03:16 PM (S4iiU) I think the walking dead actually tries for some fan service. Just look at the governor. After his death on the series kirkman was on talking dead. He had said that when he was writing the comic he didn't want to give the governor that "good" death where a hero kills him. But he realized that actually he probably should have. So in the series rick gets in a few shots on him and michonne gets to give him the fatal wound. So there is some fan service and payoff there.

Posted by: Buzzion at April 14, 2014 11:26 AM (7UNbw)

97 Well, there is one satisfying death that happens in a satisfying way I hope they will get to this.season. Finale maybe?

Posted by: The Rangers at April 14, 2014 11:27 AM (NDVjs)

98 Do the books do the physical girl power aspects as much as the HBO series? Polynikes, they do. Girl ship captain is a particular badass, and could be making more appearances soon, since they were going over Bolton's reservations about the treatment of Reek.

Posted by: Jay in Ames at April 14, 2014 11:27 AM (i2Lsf)

99 But... I guess the only REALLY bad thing he did was attempt to kill Brandon Stark. Maybe, who knows, it was an impulse, panic-move. Maybe he never really was all that "bad." He killed his own cousin to escape (in the show, at least). I think GRRM changed his mind on Jamie and retconned him to be a decent-ish guy who killed an insane king to stop a flaming apocalypse and wants to keep his nutty sister happy

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:28 AM (J7sV0)

100 "*Book Spoilers below* The target was Joffrey and it was the wine. Littlefinger tells Sansa how the Tyrells worked with him to poison Joffrey when they realized what a psycho he was." Wrong. That was NEVER in the books. It was the PIE, meant for Tyrion that Joffrey took a bite of. It was not the wine. In the books, Joffrey's "fool" was working with someone to make sure Sansa got away..that DAY. Turns out the ship she is on is Littlefinger's, heading for the The Vale

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:28 AM (32cYw)

101 time to go....have to file our tax extension & pay the taxes....which makes me sick....& angry....very, very angry

Posted by: phoenixgirl @phxazgrl at April 14, 2014 11:28 AM (u8GsB)

102 1) I never bought Littlefinger's taking credit for the hit as he's a pathological liar.

2) I always doubted the Tyrrells did it. What do they gain? They're best play was to use Joffrey to push out/murder Cersei and Tywin and then off Joffrey. And for the Seven's sake, why would the old lady need Sansa to smuggle in the poison??? Much easier to do it herself.

3) When I read the books I half thought that after all it was Tyrion, but after watching last night...

4) It was Sansa. Watch it again closely and you will see here slip something into Joffrey's cup when she picks it up and hands it to Tyrion. It fits with her story arc from helpless little girl to eventual Iron-Fisted Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

Am I the only person on the planet who caught that? GRRM and the producers must be laughing their asses off today.

Posted by: Pluskat's Dog at April 14, 2014 11:28 AM (xefJu)

103 He fucked his sister, Ace. All of her kids are his. Wasn't much of a father to them, either. --- Wasn't exactly able to be a father to them, either, because they're supposed to be his nieces and nephews and, in addition, Kingsguard members aren't supposed to have relationships or children. A lot of the problems with those kids are Cersei's fault, given her threatening to kill Robert when he tried to beat sense into Joffery after Joffery cut open a cat to see the unborn kittens.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 14, 2014 11:29 AM (APuJ7)

104

The two younger brothers, Bran and Rikon (or however they spell it) are "good guys," along with their merry band... and all the fruity characters they encounter in Book 5.

Not literally fruity, but close enough.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:29 AM (TOk1P)

105 One of the themes is that the entire Game of Thrones is meaningless because the Others are coming.

Posted by: ejo at April 14, 2014 11:30 AM (GXvSO)

106 Are we about to see ghosts talk to main characters a la Star Wars?

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 11:31 AM (5UteM)

107 Wait until you see the GoT Jar Jar Binks!

Posted by: Jay in Ames at April 14, 2014 11:32 AM (i2Lsf)

108 >>>And for the Seven's sake, why would the old lady need Sansa to smuggle in the poison??? Much easier to do it herself. I never understood this either, except to needlessly complicate things for purposes of creating a fake mystery where none exists.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:32 AM (/FnUH)

109

97 -

Should happen really soon. I wasn't even sure if it happened before or after Joffrey, but right around the same time... wasn't it?

Or are you talking about somebody NOT in Kings Landing?

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:34 AM (TOk1P)

110 2) I always doubted the Tyrrells did it. What do they gain? Margery was the Queen and Loras was on the Kingsguard (in the book). The theory is that Loras would kill Joffrey eventually because he'd visit his sadism on his siter. It's why Olenna asked Sansa about Joffrey - to get confirmation about his character from somebody besides Baelish. When they got it, they moved forward with the plan. For all his talk of realism, Baelish is GRRM's Keyser Soze. He wins by plot decree throughout the series, and he clearly paid Dontos to ferret Sansa out.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:34 AM (ZSnCv)

111 So, it was a poisoned necklace? Someone said that Grandma pulled off a blue jewel and that was the poison. I wonder if Shae, the whore, will ever reappear.

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:34 AM (8c12T)

112 Posted by: Pluskat's Dog at April 14, 2014 03:28 PM (xefJu MOAR SPOILERS******* Makes perfect sense to me. Joffrey was out of control and likely would have ended up killing his bride and if you've read the books you know what happens to Tywin and Cersei. They now have control over a child king. They're in power.

Posted by: Adam at April 14, 2014 11:35 AM (Aif/5)

113 Maybe it was suicide.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 11:35 AM (5UteM)

114
Jeb/Joffery 2016:

One is the Haughty Privileged Heir to a Self-Perpetuating Aristocratic Dynasty.

The Other is Named Joffery.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at April 14, 2014 11:36 AM (kdS6q)

115 Certainly as filmed no one could mistake it for choking.He hemmoraged out.Maybe Martin intended that t simply look like choking.

Posted by: steevy at April 14, 2014 11:36 AM (zqvg6)

116 "I shouldn't have said it wasn't tyrion." It's not Tyrion, although the Lannisters, even his father, will pin it on him. And yes, Jamie does turn into a hero, saving his brother. Littlefinger is major evil and plotting to marry Sansa to usurp the Vale AND the North..once he figures out what to do with Lysa Arryn (watch mommy fly!!) As it turns out, Tyrion discovers his father doesn't sh*t just gold and his dear old dad rather likes dark-haired whores.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:37 AM (32cYw)

117 >>>Upcoming deaths are aplenty, and spectacular. Posted by: Jay in Ames a really? I only count a couple my Give-A-Shit Meter twitches on. I've had arguments about this, but some people seem to Give-A-Shit about the various Kraken-guys who suddenly become major characters in the later books. I don't care about those guys. It all feels like padding. As does all the stuff over in the East. The heart of the book, to me, is what we started with: The Starks and the Lannisters.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:37 AM (/FnUH)

118

111 -

Shae's situation was very clear in the book. Will it be on the show? We'll see.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:37 AM (TOk1P)

119 sandyk, don't go too crazy with the spoilers

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:37 AM (/FnUH)

120 need to retcon Arya's blindness

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 11:38 AM (bStrg)

121 118 I say yes, her betrayal of Tyrion will be in the show

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:39 AM (32cYw)

122

116 -

I still think you are wrong. My recollection is that by the time we get to Book 5 at least, Tyrion is noting the fact that both he and his brother are Kingslayers.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:39 AM (TOk1P)

123 119 Sorry, but they got it all wrong.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:40 AM (32cYw)

124

121 -

HER betrayal?????

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:40 AM (TOk1P)

125 What's wrong with being a sistah-fuckah???

Posted by: zombie teddy kennedy at April 14, 2014 11:40 AM (hn5v5)

126 122-I still think you are wrong. My recollection is that by the time we get to Book 5 at least, Tyrion is noting the fact that both he and his brother are Kingslayers. Obviously, you have NOT read the books! Tyrion is a KINslayer, but not of Joffrey!

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:41 AM (32cYw)

127 I still think you are wrong. My recollection is that by the time we get to Book 5 at least, Tyrion is noting the fact that both he and his brother are Kingslayers. He means by reputation. During the trial he is clearly pissed at how he is being railroaded by cersei and his dad. And when Joffrey is choking, it's his pov and he feels bad for him. He has no reason to lie to himself.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 11:41 AM (ZSnCv)

128 That little twirp got snippy with me and so I showed him the power of The Dark Side of the Force.

Posted by: Darth Vader at April 14, 2014 11:41 AM (wd8GD)

129

I am totally invested in Tyrion. I was wondering where they found a dwarf with the correct accent and bearing for his class, and who can act. Turns out he's from New Jersey. I love every scene he's in.

I like Brandon and the guy from the "Family" episodes of Doctor Who who is helping him to learn his spirit guide powers. And of course, Arya. She should do something bad so that she's not so unambiguously good and plucky, but I don't actually want to see her sully herself.

I hated Daenaris (sp?) in the beginning, but she has grown on me.

Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 14, 2014 11:42 AM (JtwS4)

130 Catelyn is the zombie mommy and Ron Weasley is killed on page 563.

Posted by: Larsen E. Whipsnade at April 14, 2014 11:42 AM (rXcBX)

131

126 -

I read the books, but I don't have them memorized.

I think you're getting some basic facts wrong.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 14, 2014 11:42 AM (TOk1P)

132 What about the dragons getting bigger and no longer controllable? Will they destroy everything including Mom?

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:42 AM (8c12T)

133 124 Yes, Tywin appears to be a MAJOR hypocrite when it comes to whores. Shae does not hang by Tywin's hand.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:43 AM (32cYw)

134 "4) It was Sansa. Watch it again closely and you will see here slip something into Joffrey's cup when she picks it up and hands it to Tyrion. It fits with her story arc from helpless little girl to eventual Iron-Fisted Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

Am I the only person on the planet who caught that? GRRM and the producers must be laughing their asses off today."

It was Lady Olenna Tyrell. Go re-watch the episode. Then check out these screen caps:

Here: http://i58.tinypic.com/b5h1et.jpg

And Here: http://oi59.tinypic.com/24mdxzo.jpg

She yanked the far right stone when she touched it. It's completely gone after she touched it.

Posted by: Waingro at April 14, 2014 11:43 AM (uAytX)

135 The series isn't finished but I think the point is that practically nobody who has lost their innocence can be labeled a hero or villain. I think that's the point of using medieval Scots-English history as the inspiration. It's largely futile warfare and plotting and slaughter, just to dominate rather than submit and go along.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 14, 2014 11:45 AM (5xmd7)

136 The "Lord of Light" religion has long perplexed me, because it seemed, frequently, to be evil, and yet it was opposed to the "God of Darkness," which suggests it's "good."
This last episode made it clear (and I don't think this was ever clear in the books) that it's a Gnostic religion that holds that real world is Hell and that "heaven" consists of escaping it, through death.
Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 03:18 PM (/FnUH)

I read somewhere that GRRM purposely tries to upend traditional symbolism in the book as to good/evil. For example the Night's Watch, a band of good ppl for the most part, wear black, whereas the King's guard are all in white, and do despicable things. So I could definitely see him use good euphemisms in an evil, warped religion. Besides, most evil cults try to have good elements to lure their followers in.

Posted by: LizLem at April 14, 2014 11:45 AM (yRwC8)

137 And just to spoil the nood thread for everyone here---the Chinks did it!!!!1!!!

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at April 14, 2014 11:46 AM (hn5v5)

138 The only way Littlefinger can get Sansa is if TYRION is dead. The "fool" works for Littlefinger and makes sure she gets away before they have a chance to point the finger at her too. In the books, there is more of the detail when it comes to Littlefinger and Sansa. The pie was tyrion's, Joffrey ate it instead and then started choking. It was not the wine. Positive.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:47 AM (32cYw)

139 >>>Sorry, but they got it all wrong. but being wrong doesn't offer spoiler information.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:48 AM (/FnUH)

140 >>>I think you're getting some basic facts wrong. no seriously Burt you gotta re-read

You're way off.

Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 11:48 AM (/FnUH)

141 She yanked the far right stone when she touched it. It's completely gone after she touched it. Posted by: Waingro at April 14, 2014 03:43 PM (uAytX) and remember that the Dontos (sp?) gave her the necklace? and is trying to spirit her away...

Posted by: MikeH at April 14, 2014 11:48 AM (ZdA3v)

142 134 Working with Littlefinger.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:50 AM (32cYw)

143 141 With Littlefinger. In the books, The "fool" works with Littlefinger to get Sansa away, although he doesn't know it.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 11:51 AM (32cYw)

144 ace, maybe they aren't all important deaths, but they all tell a story in some way. But you are right. The big ones are huge. All others pale in comparison.

Posted by: Jay in Ames at April 14, 2014 11:52 AM (i2Lsf)

145 So, does Brianne love Jaime?

Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 11:52 AM (8c12T)

146 And for the Seven's sake, why would the old lady need Sansa to smuggle in the poison??? Much easier to do it herself. I never understood this either, except to needlessly complicate things for purposes of creating a fake mystery where none exists. Posted by: ace at April 14, 2014 03:32 PM (/FnUH) Plausible deniability. If the Tyrells were caught trying to kill Joffrey, the whole family would be destroyed in short order, in a way that made the Starks' fate seem like a walk in the park. But if Sansa got caught, everyone in Westeros would believe that she'd be capable (and justified), and any attempt by Sansa to implicate the Tyrells would be easily explained away.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at April 14, 2014 11:53 AM (TIIx5)

147 145 So, does Brianne love Jaime? Posted by: Rowan Atkinson at April 14, 2014 03:52 PM (8c12T) I have a cunning plan to figure that out...

Posted by: Baldrick at April 14, 2014 11:53 AM (ZdA3v)

148 As JFK's administration metaphorically became Camelot, will Obama's become The Game of Thrones? Still working on Putin flying in on dragons. Besides, it would really annoy Martin.

Posted by: Goatweed at April 14, 2014 11:54 AM (8HrdX)

149 The things I can do using only coconuts and jungle vines!

Posted by: The Professor at April 14, 2014 11:56 AM (wd8GD)

150 Just FYI if anybody else is like me and they'd like to reread the series but their physical copies are in rough shape you can get all five on kindle for $20.

Posted by: Adam at April 14, 2014 11:57 AM (Aif/5)

151 My hope is that the series goes off script, to f*ck with you book readers, but I think Martin is too lazy to do it

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 12:01 PM (5UteM)

152 The pie was tyrion's, Joffrey ate it instead and then started choking. It was not the wine. Positive. It's the wine. Initially people think he choked on pie, but the poison that killed him is a gem put in liquid. Baelish convinced Joffrey to hire the pig jousting midgets, because he wanted suspicion for his murder to be on Tyrion.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 12:02 PM (ZZPs4)

153 My hope is that the series goes off script, to f*ck with you book readers, but I think Martin is too lazy to do it

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 04:01 PM (5UteM)

that would mean that he actually writes, something he just doesn't do

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 12:03 PM (bStrg)

154 "But if Sansa got caught, everyone in Westeros would believe that she'd be capable (and justified), and any attempt by Sansa to implicate the Tyrells would be easily explained away." They would indeed blame her and Tyrion, which is why Baelish had to get her away. He loves her and sees a path to his "throne". "Baelish convinced Joffrey to hire the pig jousting midgets, because he wanted suspicion for his murder to be on Tyrion." That's what I said...Baelish is the murderer...with the pie, not the wine. In the book, no one would have been able to slip poison in Joffrey's cup except for Tyrion, and we know he didn't do it.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 12:06 PM (32cYw)

155 Call me old fashion, but I like scripts where when people die, they die.

Posted by: jwest at April 14, 2014 12:07 PM (u2a4R)

156 155 Call me old fashion, but I like scripts where when people die, they die.

Posted by: jwest at April 14, 2014 04:07 PM (u2a4R)

You shall not pass!

Posted by: Gandalf at April 14, 2014 12:09 PM (yRwC8)

157 The only way Baelish gets Sansa away from Tyrion is if Tyrion dies, which would have happened if not for Jamie and Varys. The hunt is on for Sansa, by association with Tyrion, what Jofrrey did to her Father, Brother, Mother, the suspicion falls on her too.

Posted by: sandyk at April 14, 2014 12:10 PM (32cYw)

158 Does the Mountain make an appearance or is that just talk?

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 14, 2014 12:25 PM (5UteM)

159 even by idiot mideival standards, Tyrion had no knowledge that he'd be holding Joff's cup during the wedding.

Posted by: joeindc44 at April 14, 2014 12:26 PM (DTVYh)

160

"yeah I don't get that. His turn towards honor is a bit abrupt.

But... I guess the only REALLY bad thing he did was attempt to kill Brandon Stark. Maybe, who knows, it was an impulse, panic-move.

Maybe he never really was all that "bad."

I think that Jamie was not always bad.

He was put in an impossible situation: obey his vows to protect the King or stop the mad King from killing everybody in the city. He chose to kill the King and forever lost his honor Â– becoming the Kingslayer. He also seems to have kept the justification secret despite the harm he could've avoided to his reputation. Thereafter, it seems like he l most of his desire to try to be good (his god-awful manipulative and beautiful sister was no help).

But, he did not entirely lose the desire to be good. One of his most interesting scenes was the first time he saw Ned in the throne room when Ned came to Kings Landing to be the hand. He clearly thought highly of Ned and hoped that Ned would see honor in Jamie (or at least forgive Jamie) for killing the mad King (who had burned Ned's father and brother to death in that same room). Ned did not and you can really see how it wounds Jamie.

Posted by: Brian at April 14, 2014 12:30 PM (Hd5n8)

161 Cersei is the biggest danger to tthe Tyrells, not Joffrey. Joffrey was an idiot, a vicious idiot, but still an idiot. And a coward. I think the first time Joffrey raised a hand to Margaery, she would tell Joffrey that if he did it again her brother would take his head and that would be the end of it. Remember when Cersei threatened Margaery after Margaery called her sister? As for the pictures sighted above of Sansa and Oleana:

1) Show me picture of Oleana touching Joffrey's cup.
2) Hard to tell from the second picture if the gem is there or not. Could be behind her hair braid.
3) Plausible deniability? Again, explain why she needs Sansa to smuggle the poison (which looks like a gem anyway) and how she planned to get it in Joffrey's cup? Makes more sense that Sansa originally planned to kill Tyrion and then changed her mind out of pity for his humiliation and having the opportunity to get the one she really hated, Joffrey.

Posted by: Pluskat's Dog at April 14, 2014 12:31 PM (cyV/5)

162 Is it just me who feels sad that King Bieber is dead? There's no one clear villain to hate now, everyone has a redeeming quality that makes the show good, but it doesn't really make it fun.

Spoilers! Lady Olenna Redwyne (nee Emma Peel) killed Joffrey! The books say it was the hairnet but it looks like it was the necklace that was given to Sansa by the fool. Running for best grandma ever, she killed Joffrey to spare Margaery from Joffrey's cruelty, and to avoid Loras from becoming a kingslayer when it comes down to it.

Catelyn Stark is dead, but not dead dead. She was resurrected a few days after her severe sore throat. She comes back as Lady Stoneheart, with vengeance in her heart. She's like a resurrected cadaver pretty much, she can't speak and her wounds are still there.

Tyrion Lannister will straight up murder Tywin Lannister after finding Shae in his bed and learning that the girl he was in love with many years ago was not a whore but a common girl who was truly in love with Tyrion.

Cersei Lannister becomes straight up cray cray (and a fat drunkardess), putting a bounty on Tyrion and causing the death of a lot of children and midgets because of mistaken identities. She also gets screwed by Jamie next to Joffrey's corpse. With Tywin dead, and she becomes Queen Regent to her son Tommen, her powers are unchecked and she drives herself mad with power.

Prince Oberyn will become Tyrion's champion following Joffrey's death. He will get his revenge on Gregor Clegane for the murder of Oberyn's sister, but he's not going to make it either. He will end up losing Tyrion's case because Gregor Clegane ends up killing him.

Posted by: PChao at April 14, 2014 12:49 PM (dOFfJ)

163 Are there enough bewbs in the show to make it worth watching? 'Cause there doesn't seem to be any other reason for me to take it up (never seen a single episode).

Posted by: The inexplicable Dr. Julius Strangepork at April 14, 2014 01:11 PM (7303j)

164 In regards to failed fan service, GRRM has completely jumped the shark. At this time, I put the point of view characters into only two categories: 1. Those I just want to see die screaming 2. Those I only want to see live long enough to make the other die screaming then they can die too I just don't care about any of them. From brutal butchers above and beyond any Machiavellian need to egregious whiners finally stopping only after the body count around them would make a devoted serial killer jealous, none of them are in the least appealing. One of the names suggested in the episode for Joffrey's sword is "Stormbringer". Its the only way to be sure the torture porn being sold as "historically accurate" fiction will ever end.

Posted by: Sam at April 14, 2014 01:20 PM (Tgd6y)

165 Well, if you have read the books, you will know that in next week's episode all the remaining Lannisters and Starks die of bubonic plague.

Posted by: Yancey Ward at April 14, 2014 01:23 PM (RGR0F)

166 I thought it was an attempt to frame Tyrion and kill Joffery. But I just read the book. Has the next book come out yet? I forbid Martin to write for the show, until he gets that book he promised me would be out by now!!!! ARe you listening Martin... finish the book!!!

Posted by: petunia at April 14, 2014 01:34 PM (DAcBA)

167

I'm glad Joffrey's dead.

But I was hoping he would get torched by a dragon.

Poisoning is too good for the little shit.

I never for a moment thought that Tyrian was behind the poisoning.

My first thought was "The curse worked!"

Remember the curse that the witch woman did against Joffrey?

I forget her name...she was the one who had a smoke demon come out of her womb.

Posted by: wheatie at April 14, 2014 01:54 PM (FWbLS)

168 I don't have HBO but my sister does so I went over there last night to watch the first 2 episodes. I'm kind of surprised they killed off Joffery so early this season. I figured half way through this season, some one would kill the little evil fuck. I do need a power point presentation for all the various characters and families. Does get confusing at times. I've never read the books and probably won't. I can't tell whats going to happen to Sansa. Arya is going to be a stone cold killer. She still has that coin from the "faceless men" (or whatever they were called) on her. I suspect she will be one someday (the hot slinky creepy red headed witch kind of hinted at that last season). No clue on the remaining Stark boys. The crippled one is going to be a mystic or something. The one that is still south of the wall will probably be a goner.

Posted by: puddleglum at April 14, 2014 02:07 PM (OkN8Y)

169 Game of Thrones is torture porn, Martin is a sick pervert, and anyone who continues to read the series after the last book is an incurable masochist.

Posted by: packsoldier at April 14, 2014 02:10 PM (0b+LJ)

170 Packsoldier is absolutely right. Martin's a raging left wing loon who literally blamed George Bush & the Iraq War for causing his writer's block. And the general worldview of GOT is a Hobbesian utilitiarian "everyone sucks" view. Well then why am I reading your book or watching your show? Violence & Sex. That shit's for poofters! That's why Matt & Trey made fun of GRRM for being obsessed with weiners. The TV show is geared towards girls who love the drama and don't give a shit about the worldview/storytelling. There was another conservative commentator who said GOT is basically a white supremacist liberal's fantasy because they get to fetishize the medieval past without the guilt of racism or religion.

Posted by: anang at April 14, 2014 02:16 PM (jpys7)

171 Someone was kind enough to post a spoiler in the morning open thread. Asshole.

Posted by: Chinaacid at April 14, 2014 02:57 PM (6ST2v)

172 This series of books is so exciting, after finishing the last one for over a freaking year, I bought it again thinking it was a new one. As I read the first few pages, I thought 'Hell, I could have wrote this crap, it's so predictable'. I took that sucker back to Hastings and got my money back. Would not waste 2 minutes on the show. Except to look at the nekkid womens. Martin is no Tolkien, though he tries hard to be.

Posted by: Erowmero at April 14, 2014 02:59 PM (1gcFZ)

173 Anyone think Megan is about to get the Sharon Tate treatment? ------------- That's the first thing that came to mind when I heard the coyotes howl. Starlet all alone in the canyon...

Posted by: All Hail Eris at April 14, 2014 03:05 PM (QBm1P)

174 It is hard to know if Robert Kirkman or George R. R. Martin likes to create characters that people like, love or hate to only have killed very soon after they are made more complex then 1 dimensional. The Walking Dead could have been an HBO show not a AMC. At the end of the both TV shows, only two or three people that was in episode 1 will be left unkilled.

Posted by: Trevor@TJexcite at April 14, 2014 03:30 PM (O3+sw)

175 Someone was kind enough to post a spoiler in the morning open thread. Asshole.
Yes. Several times actually and also in the morning dump thread. And 'yes' to 'asshole' too because even ignoring someone like me who isn't going to see the season until a year from now when it's brought out on DVD, anyone who recorded the show to watch tonight (like artisanal 'ette #1) or later in the week or to save up two or three episodes to watch at once got ass-fucked.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at April 14, 2014 03:57 PM (hn5v5)

176 What about napalm? Then we could kill more, faster!

Posted by: rammerplex at April 14, 2014 04:56 PM (PRGTW)

177 and at weddings and funerals. That would really rock! Killing people who come together in large groups to celebrate emotions.

Emotions are a luxury for the dead.

The living should avoid emotions, because they kill.

Posted by: rammerplex at April 14, 2014 05:00 PM (PRGTW)

178 with fire!

Posted by: rammerplex at April 14, 2014 05:04 PM (PRGTW)

179 Somehow Fitzgerald illuminated the golden age with couple deaths shortly after wars with millions of deaths, which affected everyone.

If GoT illuminates our age with hundreds of deaths shortly after wars with thousands of deaths, which affected few, then do we now think that death is more important? or less?

Posted by: rammerplex at April 14, 2014 05:15 PM (PRGTW)

180 Winter is Coming.

Posted by: midwestconservative at April 14, 2014 05:39 PM (eFTkY)

181 Just watched it again, frame-by-frame. None of the Jewels on Sansa's necklace are missing. When she sits down after handing Tyrion the cup they flop up and you can see them all. Only Joffrey, Tyrion and Sansa touch the cup. The old lady never goes near it. Watch Sansa's hands carefully when she picks up and passes the cup to Tyrion and watch her face when Joffrey sets the cup down without drinking. Also, the expression on Tyrion's face after Joffrey dies; he realizes it was Sansa.

It really looks like she planned to kill Tyrion and then changed here mind out of pity for Tyrion and her overriding hatred of Joffrey.

Posted by: Pluskat's Dog at April 14, 2014 06:15 PM (Y6qC4)

182 "Just watched it again, frame-by-frame. None of the Jewels on Sansa's necklace are missing."

You must not have watched very carefully:
Right after Lady Olenna fondles Sansa's hair and necklace: http://tinypic.com/r/32zjmz9/8

Sansa handing the cup to Tyrion. The tip of the gold piece is on top of her braid, so the jewel that was supposed to be there should not be obscured by her hair:
http://tinypic.com/r/1z1r6dt/8

Posted by: pirate of the perineum at April 14, 2014 09:06 PM (pHkAu)

183 You guys realize this is a leftist show written by leftists, which corrupts the culture to intentionally highlight and promote homosexuality (see some of the characters which are poked fun at) but really this is Martin's way of showing abuse of them by evil hetero bigots. Martin says Republicans are racists.

This show glorifies disgusting behavior and teaches people all the wrong values and yet many even on the "conservative" aisle lap it up.

No wonder the culture is toast. With cr@p like this how can it be anything else?

Posted by: Mehow at April 15, 2014 04:01 AM (EKrcs)

184 HBO, BTW, is a trash network that has done as much as anybody to destroy sane values. From Behind the Candelabra to GOT, the verdict is in, and they suck.

Posted by: Mehow at April 15, 2014 04:03 AM (EKrcs)

185 "no idea. I'm not even sure what "dead" means in the story by Book 5. "Dead" begins to become merely an inconvenience. " I doubt it considering who his real parents are.

Posted by: Ann NY at April 15, 2014 04:03 AM (Ogslx)

186 Last comment:

1) When you said the gem on the right, I thought you meant the gem on Sansa's right, not the frame right. That said, Olenna plainly touches the necklace on Sansa's right side, not the left. The picture cited with the missing gem is much later after Olenna is gone. Again, Olenna did not need Sansa to sneak in the poison, looks genuinely surprised for a moment when Joffrey starts choking, and finally NEVER GOES NEAR THE CUP. Unless she has GoGo-Gadget arms she never had the opportunity to poison Joffrey.

2) Watch Sansa very closely through this sequence:
- Early on she is obviously seething with Tyrion, not necessarily with Joffrey.
- After Joffrey humiliates Tyrion she looks on Tyrion with pity and Joffrey with anger.
- When the cup rolls under the table, Sansa is doing something with her hands under the table.
- She picks up the cup with her right hand around the bowl, but when she stands up to hand the cup to Tyrion she is holding the bowl of the cup with her left hand and her right hand is over the opening of the cup.
- During the sequence leading up to Joffrey's death, the camera keeps cutting to Sansa. Why? If Olenna killed Joffrey, why is it so important to keep showing Sansa.
- When the pie comes and Joffrey sets the cup in the table behind him without drinking, the camera cuts to Sansa and she looks concerned for a moment. When Joffrey starts choking she doesn't look surprised, there is even a momentary smirk of satisfaction.

That Sansa killed Joffrey fits her story arc. She starts out a kind, meek girl who is always waiting for her father-mother-brother, etc. to come rescue her. By the time of the Purple Wedding, for all she knows, she is on her own and nobody is coming. I suspect in the end she becomes Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, possibly with Tyrion as her husband.

And if you think she doesn't have the courage to do this, remember she's a Stark.

Posted by: Pluskat's Dog at April 15, 2014 05:57 AM (ZTYUw)

187 Sansa didn't kill Joffery, neither did Balish. It's clear by book five who did and why.

Posted by: Ann NY at April 15, 2014 09:15 AM (Ogslx)

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