1 It's very hard for me to see how you sell the freeloading half of the country and their Dem reps to vote for a plan that says: you used to pay 0% in income taxes but now you are going to have to pay 9%, and by the way, all your shit also now costs 9% more due to the sales tax.

Oh, and meanwhile we are dropping the high-end earner and corporate rates to 9%.

Whether the numbers all work or not, good luck with that.  Seriously.

2 We have a money problem.

3 Obama is a SCFOAMF.

4 That 30% [31%] is how normal people calculate it. If you buy something for $1.00 you will pay 31 cents in taxes. That is 31 percent in my book.

The "fair tax" is a huge tax increase for most people.

5 By the by, since Cain's 9-9-9 plan is unacceptable, time to default to Romney.

6 If 9-9-9 is so great and creates the economic renewal he believes it will, why should we ever go to the Fair Tax? Because it's even better, you say? Then why spend time and political capital farting around with 9-9-9 when they could be better spent to pass the Fair Tax? according to his web site, he says 9-9-9 is a way to GET to the fair tax - in intermediate step. I'm not impressed with the fair tax and the only reason I'm not against 9-9-9 is that it seems better than what we have now. As for WHY he isn't talking spending cuts instead... Because he wants to get elected! Any cut aggravates the target - tax reform is more spread out and some people will tolerate somewhat higher taxes in order to have less complexity on April 15th (me, for example).

7 Smoke and mirrors.. To counter arguments that poorer Americans will be hit hard by a 9% sales tax on everything, Cain himself says you cannot predict how people will change their spending behavior.  But that shoots down the whole point about taxing and having at least some idea what the revenues will be!

Every analysis I read taxes middle income Americans much higher than current structure and the rich much lower.  It's a losing proposition at the ballot box in the general, so I hope everyone who is high on Cain comes down before the primaries.

8 He presupposes that the 9-9-9 plan passes, an economic renewal results and we continue on to the promised land of the Fair Tax during his term. This is a little underpants gnomish, isn't it?

That plan will NEVER pass in its current recommended format. By the time it makes it through crying Boner and Mushy McConnell it would be at least doubled.

And after a few years we would have back to 30% income tax along with a 30% sales tax/VAT and we would be just like Europe.

9 Every day that large portions of folks who characterize themselves as "Tea Partiers" support this guy, the more credibility they lose for their cause with me. And Cain, even on economics now that he's finally being scrutinized in that area, too, is looking less and less like anything other than the same old same old DC politician with each passing day...other than being less qualified for the job than just about anyone other than the SCoaMF. If we're going to elect someone who will be "technically" good at maintaining the status quo, then you might as well vote for Romney. He'd at least be more efficient at shoveling the same old horse manure. And no, saying Cain and Romney are alike is NOT a compliment to Cain.

Herman Cain: Not Close To Ready 2012!!!

10

Cain is and always has been a Fair Tax advocate.  He's running with 9-9-9 as a transitional plan because he knew the Fair Tax would be demagogued to death if he put it out front.  Looks like he was exactly right about that.   

Looks like both the left and the right are just peachy with the byzantine, 72,000 page Federal tax code to me.  Joy.

11 @ #10 Plopping yet another tax *on top of* that byzantine 72K page tax code would be an improvement in what way, exactly? That *is* what this Cain plan does you know...or do you think the current tax code will just magically disappear because Herman waves a pizza at it?

12 There's nothing inherently wrong with a flat/fair tax ... in fact there's a lot right with it, especially the universal buy-in to society that everyone has to make (better expressed as "broadening the tax base," but the broader concept is that people tend to not tear up things they paid for).

But is obviously regressive, and so it's just not. going. to. happen.

13 > 5 By the by, since Cain's 9-9-9 plan is unacceptable, time to default to Romney. Posted by: Tom In Korea Looking into the future, future, future.... 2013. House repeals obamacare, repeal bill fails to beat Sentate filibuster by one vote. President Romney announces, "Well, so much for that. Now it's my responsibility to make Obamacare WORK." (breaks out the technocrat green visor...) (yes, I'm saying that he won't apply massive presidential pressure to the get that last Senate vote.)

14 Total. Bullshit.

Neither is any kind of VAT tax.

But taxing business income instead of profits is a way bad idea.

15

Looks like both the left and the right are just peachy with the byzantine, 72,000 page Federal tax code to me.  Joy.

Posted by: Jaws
...........
You don't need 72,000 pages to have a better tax policy that isn't 9-9-9.

Get rid of all deductions.  Have 3 or 4 rates - higher as income goes up, but less than what they are now.

Have a flat corporate rate low enough to attract businesses back to America.

16 As far as I am concerned for my personal situation, the current tax code is much better for me than either the 9-9-9 plan or the unFair Tax.

The promoters of the unFair tax have openly admitted it is a screw job for retired people who are living off of savings that have already been taxed. .

17

ItÂ’s a fairly safe bet to assume that those who oppose the Fair Tax plan donÂ’t understand it.

18 > 11 @ #10 Plopping yet another tax *on top of* that byzantine 72K page tax code would be an improvement in what way, exactly? That *is* what this Cain plan does you know...or do you think the current tax code will just magically disappear because Herman waves a pizza at it? Posted by: davidinvirginia Uh, it's supposed to be a REPLACEMENT for the current tax code. So if some sort of 9-9-9 bill comes to Pres. Cain's desk that doesn't abolish everything else, then it's his responsiblity to veto it.

19 OT: If you have a strong stomach this morning, Ron Paul is on CNBC.

20 Oh, and I should have added:  Romney sucks dix.  I hate that lying cornhole.

21

ItÂ’s a fairly safe bet to assume that those who oppose the Fair Tax plan donÂ’t understand it.

Posted by: jwest at October 18, 2011 08:14 AM (qeYI9)

Actually it is the exact opposite. Have you actually downloaded the bill and read it? Have you downloaded the working papers the assumptions were calculated from?

Have you then worked out your expected taxes and compared it to what you paid the previous year?

I have done all of those.

22 (yes, I'm saying that he won't apply massive presidential pressure to the get that last Senate vote.) Posted by: Comrade Arthur
.........
He doesn't need to get it through cloture.  It was passed through reconciliation and can be repealed through the reconciliation process.

Rick Santorum brought that up in the last debate and Romney agreed that would be the path to repeal they both would use.

23 I have an easy alternative corporate income tax proposal, BTW. Just tax corporations on their GAAP pretax income. There's no inherent reason to have an entirely separate accounting regimen (well, other than social engineering through the tax code). I'd also exempt any company that has to comply with Sarbanes-Oxley from IRS audits. Time to get a little bang for the buck out of this pig. Or repeal it ... I'm ok with that, too.

24 >> So if some sort of 9-9-9 bill comes to Pres. Cain's desk that doesn't abolish everything else, then it's his responsiblity to veto it. What about Cain's successor?

25 No the healthcare law was NOT passed through reconciliation.

26

Vic,

 

What spending on new goods and services would you, as a retired person living off of your savings, make in excess of the prebate?  Would the increased value of your existing home offset it?

27 vic the 999 would not tax social security or income from investments......that is from his site........

28 Rick Santorum brought that up in the last debate and Romney agreed that would be the path to repeal they both would use.

The difference between the two is that Romney lies constantly.  He'll tell anyone whatever they want to hear if it will help get him elected.

29 Dude! Herman Cain like, killed his brother!








_{I got better.}

30 What spending on new goods and services would you, as a retired person living off of your savings, make in excess of the prebate?

Just about everything is taxable under the FT. For example I have high medical costs and insurance payments for that. Those costs would be taxable under the unFair Tax. Try getting hit for a 31% sales tax on $100,000 colon cancer operation.

31 On the other hand, it is kind of funny that someone stole Obama's teleprompter.

32 Uh, it's supposed to be a REPLACEMENT for the current tax code. So if some sort of 9-9-9 bill comes to Pres. Cain's desk that doesn't abolish everything else, then it's his responsiblity to veto it.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 18, 2011 08:14 AM (mGnwL)

Yeah, that's what worries me. I don't trust this guy to do that.

33 "In every country that has established a VAT with the promise of reducing its national debt, the VAT has eventually gone up or expanded on top of the existing tax structure. After discovering many of the tax grenades in the recently passed health-care "deform" bill, which is already driving costs up and access down, it would be real easy for an overzealous bureaucrat to insert the language in the legislation "national retail and wholesale" tax.

For the liberal [and conservative] naysayers who say that would not happen, you lose! Just look at the Social Security system, Medicare and Medicaid. Over the years since their inception, taxes have gone up, benefits have gone down and they are still on a path of insolvency."

34 @ #11: The whole point of Cain's plan is to replace that 72,000 pages. He's said that repeatedly. On a federal level, you get 9-9-9 and NOTHING else.

Whether it will pass (seems doubtful) and whether it is a good plan (I'm still reading about it) are different issues.

Also, no one has been able to explain how Cain's proposal is a VAT. According to everything I've read on VATs and tax codes in general, it isn't, but if anyone can explain how it is, I'd appreciate it.

First, though, a national sales tax in and of itself is NOT a VAT. Cain was talking about a very specific proposal when he said that particular proposal for a national sales tax was a disguised VAT. Also, a business income tax with very few deductions is not a VAT. So, those out of the way, I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this question.

35 Again we're arguing about something that will never happen. I guess that's my biggest problem with Cain's policy proposals, they're based on some fantasy that he could get any of this stuff through congress. Doesn't make any difference if the GOP controlled both parts of congress, none of this stuff is realistic.

36 Try getting hit for a 31% sales tax on $100,000 colon cancer operation. Where does that 31% number come from?

37 2 We have a money problem.

Posted by: Ten at October 18, 2011 08:04 AM (Dt0iB)

...I'm tired...

38 here's a good article on Obamacare / reconciliation:


http://tinyurl.com/3hojc9r

Reconciliation didnÂ’t play a small role in ObamacareÂ’s passage, as has been suggested. Without reconciliation, Obamacare would not have become law at all. ItÂ’s true that the main Obamacare structure was passed by the Senate in December 2009 under normal rules for legislative consideration.
.....
But then Scott Brown won the Massachusetts Senate race in January 2010; the Democrats lost their 60-vote supermajority and could no longer close off debate on legislation without the help of at least one Republican senator.

At that point, the president and his allies had two choices. They could compromise with Republicans and bring back a bill to the Senate that could garner a large bipartisan majority. Or they could ignore the election results in Massachusetts and pull an unprecedented legislative maneuver, essentially switching from regular order to reconciliation at the eleventh hour, thereby bypassing any need for Republican support. As they had done at every other step in the process, the Democrats chose the partisan route. They created a separate bill, with scores and scores of legislative changes that essentially became the vehicle for a House-Senate conference on the legislation. That bill was designated a reconciliation bill. Then they passed the original Senate bill through the House on the explicit promise that it would be immediately amended by this highly unusual reconciliation bill, which then passed both the House and Senate a few days later, on an entirely party-line vote.

39 Also, no one has been able to explain how Cain's proposal is a VAT.

Go back a few days and read Ace's post.

40 Where does that 31% number come from?

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 18, 2011 08:25 AM (ZDUD4)

That is the actual sales tax rate on the unfair tax.

41 My tax reform is simple: Abolish the AMT Abolish the corporate income tax Abolish payroll taxes for the individual, offset by raising the payroll tax paid by companies 5% tax on all imports 5% Transaction tax on stock and bond purchases

42 oldsailorspoet not trying to speak for vic but i think he's talking about his lost medical deduction under the plan

43
Oh, fuck it-- MCCAIN!

44 The that more that you look at Cain's tax plan, (and while I congratulate  thinking the current tax code out of the box and into the dumpster) it's starting to look like a fatally flawed feature that was designed as a bug.
While Cain appears to have everything that Romney does not, that would unfortunately include this plan.
The Conspiracy theory that labels Cain as a stalking horse for Romney may be dead on.
His outright condemnation for Perry while not a discouraging word for Mittens struck me as odd coming from a Conservative.   

45 > 24 >> So if some sort of 9-9-9 bill comes to Pres. Cain's desk that doesn't abolish everything else, then it's his responsiblity to veto it. What about Cain's successor? Posted by: Andy whut? Are you saying don't vote for Cain because some other President might not veto a bad bill?

46 not trying to speak for vic but i think he's talking about his lost medical deduction under the plan

Posted by: phoenixgirl occupying my kitchen at October 18, 2011 08:28 AM (eOXTH)

No, they would actually charge you sales tax on hospital and doctor bills. Here is the Q&A from their own site:

Why not just exempt food and medicine from the tax? WouldnÂ’t that be fair and simple?

Exempting items by category is neither fair nor simple. Respected economists have shown that the wealthy spend much more on unprepared food, clothing, housing, and medical care than do the poor. Exempting these goods, as many state sales taxes do, actually gives the wealthy a disproportionate benefit. Also, today these purchases are not exempted from federal taxation. The purchase of food, clothing, and medical services is made from after-income-tax and after-payroll-tax dollars, while their purchase price hides the cost of corporate taxes and private sector compliance costs.

Finally, exempting one product or service, but not another, opens the door to the army of lobbyists and special interest groups that plague and distort our taxation system today. Those who have the money will send lobbyists to Washington to obtain special tax breaks in their own self-interest. This process causes unfair and inefficient distortions in our economy and must be stopped.

47 42 oops he's talking about a sales tax on the procedure......i don't know how 31% is the number

48 What about Cain's successor?

If Cain can't get 999 passed during his presidency, do you think his successor will keep trying?

49 Also, no one has been able to explain how Cain's proposal is a VAT. According to everything I've read on VATs and tax codes in general, it isn't, but if anyone can explain how it is, I'd appreciate it.

First, though, a national sales tax in and of itself is NOT a VAT. Cain was talking about a very specific proposal when he said that particular proposal for a national sales tax was a disguised VAT. Also, a business income tax with very few deductions is not a VAT. So, those out of the way, I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this question.
Posted by: lumpy
.............
It is a VAT because businesses would have to pay the sales tax as well.  Currently, at the state level  (most states if not all) you apply for a business tax number.  That allows you to buy goods without any sales tax at all.

That would not apply to Cain's federal 9% sales tax plan. 

So, businesses would pay 9% for goods they use to make final p[roducts, which would then be taxed again when finally sold to the consumer.

50 We support Cain's 999% tax on the 1%!!!!

51 >> Are you saying don't vote for Cain because some other President might not veto a bad bill? No. I'm saying don't give Cain's successor a VAT and a national sales tax to play with.

52 > 32 Uh, it's supposed to be a REPLACEMENT for the current tax code. So if some sort of 9-9-9 bill comes to Pres. Cain's desk that doesn't abolish everything else, then it's his responsiblity to veto it. Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 18, 2011 08:14 AM (mGnwL) Yeah, that's what worries me. I don't trust this guy to do that. Posted by: davidinvirginia Ahh. Simple. Don't vote for him, then. Who DO you trust? Me, I don't trust any of these guys. I want to establish that new climate where the wrong people are forced to do the right things. In the meantime, I'll vote for the most conservative guy who can get elected.

53

@11:

Both 9-9-9 and FairTax COMPLETELY REPLACE the Federal Income Tax.  They are not "plopped" on top of it.  IIRC,  John Linder's Fair Tax bill requires repeal of the 16th Ammendment as a precondition.

The present- and any future tax plans will ALWAYS be open to subsequent meddling by progressive SCFOAMF's.  It's a fact of life and it needs to be battled whenever it rears its head.  The good does not have to be sacrificed for the perfect here, IMO.

54 he's talking about a sales tax on the procedure......i don't know how 31% is the number

Posted by: phoenixgirl occupying my kitchen at October 18, 2011 08:29 AM (eOXTH)

That 31% is the real rate. They advertise 23% but if you go to their working papers to see how they arrive at that it is through mathematical manipulation of the numbers. A little bit of difference divided by sums.

The fact is as I said earlier, if you spend a dollar you pay 31 cents in taxes. They effectively work backwards from that 31 cents.

55 46 vic why would the number be 31%? wouldn't it be 9 + the state tax?

56 damn vic.....i'm one post behind everyone of yours.......lol......

57 Tax rates are not tax reform. If you alter the tax system fundamentally, the rates don't matter because they'll be adjusted.

58 why would the number be 31%? wouldn't it be 9 + the state tax?

Posted by: phoenixgirl occupying my kitchen at October 18, 2011 08:32 AM (eOXTH)

Thats for the FT, not 9-9-9

59 9-9-9 isn't perfect, but it has jumpstarted a conversation about how the American tax code is way too complicated and needs to be simplified.

Also, Art Laffer likes it a lot, which isn't nothing.  Yes, Grover Norquist hates it, and you always have dueling experts on these kinds of things, but look.  What's Romney proposing?  Are we really gonna nominate a known Socialist?  Perry's flaming out (and doesn't believe in enforcing immigration law), and the others don't have a prayer.

I get that most of the HQ is in the tank for Perry, and that's fine.  But try harder to build your guy up, and/or tear Romney down.  Otherwise, Romney will be the nominee and he will either lose or be Obama's second term.

60 How is Cain proposing to collect this national sales tax?

Is he drafting state tax agencies into service as the collectors of a federal tax?

61 Free at last. Free at last. Good God Almighty. Free at last.

62 ok fine...you all spoiled my reluctant embrace of 999 now i got nothing..... .....i'm officially a voter without a candidate.......

63 Anyone need a slightly used teleprompter? Link.

64 Posted by: President Chet Roosevelt at October 18, 2011 08:27 AM (PtFe7)

Oh my! It burns!

65 It's very hard for me to see how you sell the freeloading half of the country and their Dem reps to vote for a plan that says: you used to pay 0% in income taxes but now you are going to have to pay 9%, and by the way, all your shit also now costs 9% more due to the sales tax.

Actually, the majority of that half are retirees, medically disabled, or students. SS checks won't be taxed, and the current dividend tax will go away, so retirees would be better on that point. I'm assuming disability checks wouldn't be taxed either. However, working students would see an increase, I assume.

The sales tax, on the other hand, could be pretty bad for all three groups. Cain is counting on prices going down due to greatly reduced tax and tax compliance costs, but that's a big question mark. Competition could well drive prices down if business costs go down, but there's no guarantee of that happening.

66 i'm officially a voter without a candidate.......

Like I have said, in the end it will boil down to a choice between Romney and Perry. If it were not for these "free" debates a lot of these candidates would already have dropped out because they are broke.

Cain still have a chance even though he is way behind on fund raising, but all it will take is another Kommie Wallace interview.

Anyway, got to run for a few min. bbl.

67 I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

68 Posted by: Vic at October 18, 2011 08:39 AM (YdQQY)

You need to start planning better. Running out of bourbon in the morning is just wrong.

69 I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Posted by: TOTUS

So we can expect SCOAMF to sound smarter in his next speech?

70 This is a victory for teleprompters everywhere.

71

Vic,

 

If weÂ’re going to base policy on a few extreme cases like yours, we should go ahead and enact universal cradle to grave health care. 

72 The "fair tax" is a huge tax increase for most people.

Since we are quickly approaching  the point where most people don't pay taxes, this is a good thing in my book.

73 I want to establish that new climate where the wrong people are forced to do the right things.

Three words (or two if you're Joe Biden):  Balanced Budget Amendment

This is the sole reason Texas keeps balancing it's budget - it has to.  Perry has signed six balanced budgets, and it's certainly not because he's just so damn conservative he wouldn't have it any other way.

74 Cain keeps talking about the national sales tax REPLACING the income tax-tiny question here....doesn't that mean he will have to either a.)repeal the 16th amendment establishing an income tax uhhhhhh...FIRST?-yeah,that'll only take YEARS and oh BTW,takes away congress's access to our money and their power-why-they'll be LINING UP to vote yes on that..... orrrrr ,let's look at option b) Cain will say,"we'll pass 999 NOW and uh,yeah,we'll work on repealing the income tax,uhh,really,really soon-so let's pass it NOW because it's A CRISIS don't you see-we'll fix the rest later"-so instead we will have at the same time a shiny new national sales tax,an income tax and all of our state and local taxes and the bright ,pie crust PROMISE of reforming the tax code and repealing the income tax SOMETIME within the next decade. Come the fuck on ,people! Doesn't the TEA  in tea party stand for Taxed Enough Already?Which option do you think the gutless politicians in D.C. will select for us?

75 43
Oh, fuck it-- MCCAIN!

Posted by: nickless at October 18, 2011 08:28 AM (MMC8r)

Bob Dole strongly supports you

76 Nein Nein Nien.

I live in Texas and I don't want to be California or Europe. 999 will lead to a euro style VAT & be a jobkiller. The states sales tax in my state will go up to almost 18% unless I buy used beer.

Herman's a nice guy and all but POTUS?
I want experience with results. Stickin with Gov. Perry and his energy plan will work.
Gig Em'

77 I disagree with creating another federal tax.  The Feds have enough taxing authority as it is.  (No pun intended)

What we need is tax simplification.  You can throw out the 72k pages of federal tax code without instituting a new tax.

78 Free TOTUS!

79 Someone jacked the Preznits Telepromter in my town. SCoaMF is coming here Wednesday.

80 oops sock/off

81 phoenixgirl occupying my kitchen at October 18, 2011 08:36 The only problem I have with Cains plans are the empwerment zones. They havn't been explained very well. I wouldn't let the Perry supporters, seminar talk show callers and GOP elitists like Rove push you away from Cain. Art Laffer and Paul Ryan both see promise in this plan. I have two windows up on my Computer, one is the Cain plan and the other is AoS. There are legitimate concearns like, How do you stop 999 from becoming 121212. There are also some really big lies and smears. Some have taken this Vat tax lie and held it as tight as the green movement holds global warming.

82 75 concealed the repeal of the 16th amendment happens in the 2nd phase

83

Bob Dole strongly supports you

Posted by: Bob Dole! at October 18, 2011 08:44 AM (OoiW1)

But only for four hours or less!

84 It is a VAT because businesses would have to pay the sales tax as well.

From Cain's website, the business tax would be, in part: "Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses"

So, no, businesses don't pay it as well, at least, not on materials bought in the US they use to make products out of.

Also, I read the earlier posts on this, but the only answer I get is "well, everyone is calling it a VAT, so it's a VAT".

85 Not this S#!% again.

86

It is absolutely maddening to see just how completely the progressive income tax, a form of taxation originally and specifically verboten in the Constitution, has fucked with the minds of Americans. 

Those early 20th Century Socialists really knew their shit, didn't they?

87 Some have taken this Vat tax lie and held it as tight as the green movement holds global warming. Posted by: Oldsailor's poet
........
All you need to do is answer one simple question:

Do businesses pay the 9% sales tax when they buy goods used in manufacturing their products.

If the answer is "Yes", then it is a VAT.

88 Folks need to (a) lighten up a little, (b) read plans before they jump all over the sound-bites they don't like, and (c) learn a little strategy. Anyone who read the 9-9-9 brochure that Cain posted on his site immediately upon announcing it would have know that it was designed as a bridge to the FairTax. Correct that he hasn't harped on that in interviews and debates precisely because he knows that the uninformed (i.e. the folks who don't read brochures on candidate websites) would demagogue what they think they know about the FairTax. I've been a proponent of the FairTax for a while. The problem is, to "get" it, you have to understand basic economics, read a lot, and do some analysis, which 90% of Americans are incapable or unwilling to do. Not "regressive" in the context most people mean... though if you twist the numbers right, you can make anything "look" regressive (hence the Buffett Secretary Fiasco). How many FairTax haters understand the pre-bate and the effect of compounded embedded taxes, I wonder? So, for the FairTax to have a chance, we need a bridge that is easier for folks to "get"... which may or may not be 9-9-9 or some derivation thereof. 9-9-9 is designed to have some aspect that almost everyone will like (depending on your leaning) and other parts that they will not like. It has gotten a BIG conversation started that no one else had the testicles or juice to start. And it has Cain driving that conversation. Where would he be without it right now? Or if he had meekly said "uh, excuse me, I think we need to cut spending" from the back row of the debate line? I don't think anyone ever expects something like this to "pass" in it's "original" form... I can't think of anything ever touted on a campaign trail that ultimately "passed" exactly as it was originally presented. Would love some examples if they exist. But it starts a much-needed conversation, and breaks some taboos, and forces the issue to the top of the stack. A primary problem with spending and taxation in the US is lack of transparency. If people KNOW how much they're paying, they RESENT paying it much, much more. When everyone knows how much tax they actually pay (even the "untaxed" we talk about who *GASP* still pay huge amounts of embedded taxes) then almost EVERYONE becomes a "TEA partier". Even some folks in the dependent class. If folks figure out that (a) 9-9-9 is "too much tax" and (b) 9-9-9 is less than we collectively pay now, and (c) "holy crap, we're going to have to do something REALLY radical to balance the budget", then that's a big victory. And has more people thinking like Tea Party Types. Which is good.

89 Chi-Town Jerry at October 18, 2011 08:49 AM They pay taxes on purchased goods now, are you saying there is already a Vat?

90 From Cain's website, the business tax would be, in part: "Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses"

But the sales tax paid isn't part of the purchase, you're buying a product or service not the tax.

91

What we need is tax simplification.  You can throw out the 72k pages of federal tax code without instituting a new tax.

IMO this is all just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't care how much anyone alters/tweaks/adjusts the tax system, because we're screwed unless we stop overspending. Yes, we need to revamp the tax system to encourage investment and economic growth, but it's the spending that's going to kill us. It doesn't matter if you increase tax revenue if you are still spending 1.5x more than what you take in.

92 It sounds reasonable until one realizes that Cain is actually proposing ANOTHER tax. What sane person would believe that the US federal government would be content with these rates for long? Eventually, they would be subject to tax creep; the country would end up with higher rates AND a "national sales tax."

This is the same problem every tax code has. Taxes can always be raised. This isn't a terribly good objection to this particular plan.

93 They pay taxes on purchased goods now, are you saying there is already a Vat?

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 18, 2011 08:50 AM (ZDUD4)

Not if the goods are for resale. That's the difference.

94 They pay taxes on purchased goods now, are you saying there is already a Vat?

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 18, 2011 08:50 AM (ZDUD4)

What?

95 They pay taxes on purchased goods now, are you saying there is already a Vat? Posted by: Oldsailor's poet
...........
Sales tax.  We are only talking about sales tax here.

And no, businesses do not currently pay sales tax on goods they use in the manufacturing process.

96 Vic is misrepresenting much of the flat tax. the 100,000 surgery won't be 100,000 because much of the existing tax burden will have already be removed. When people know and can control their tax burdens more efficient spending will be used. This is a classic case of twisting the numbers enough to make them bad. Yea , great vic let's throw out the good because it's not perfect and go with the guy that built the socialized medicine model. Your intellect is dizzying.

97 Will there be a tax on longbows?

98 For everyone saying that this can be modified either by Congress or Cain himself once elected - politically speaking, it can't. Cain has made 9-9-9 the centerpiece of his campaign. He will presumably ride this through the general if he's the nominee. He's not going to switch gears once in office, and the GOP Congress is going to have a hard time spitting in the face of the central plank of their president's platform. So if you're voting for Cain, you're voting for 9-9-9.

99 "Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses"Posted by: lumpy at October 18, 2011 08:47 AM (MdoYX)

I presume this means all purchasing costs including the sales tax so this mitigates the VAT like aspect somewhat, but what I don't get is the gross income part.  Seems like the gross income needs to be offset by labor and operating costs so that the tax is on the profit, not the gross.  Problem with that is, how does one define allowable expenses (one of the reasons for the 72000 pages of legalese in the current tax code)?   If I need a book-keeper or lawyer, is that a valid operating expense?  If I adjust my CEO salary upwards until my company makes $0.00 profit, then am I exempt from tax?  Gross income is easier to define, but falls far short of capturing the real expenses of operating a business, especially a start-up.
And unfortunately, although I always think the best of my fellow man, that collection of SCOAMFs in DC will never let go of the power to tax "creatively" so they can line their pockets.

100 I think it was disgusting, wrong, and outrageous that the fruckin Egyptians had the nerve to parade him in front of a new conference for propaganda. Fuck the egyptians, fuck hamas, and fuck the palestinians. But other than that good morning Sorry for changing the subject but I had to get that off my chest

101 He will presumably ride this through the general if he's the nominee.
Posted by: Paul Zummo
...............
Which, as I have said all along will never happen.  Cain has a snowball's chance in hell of every becoming the GOP nominee.

102 and the GOP Congress is going to have a hard time spitting in the face of the central plank of their president's platform.

Why wouldn't they? When it comes to congressmen, they're looking out for themselves, you ain't getting a majority to go for this. Republicans or Democrats.

103 I own a business which sells expensive capital equipment. Business sucks. Customers are looking towards an uncertain future, and the penalty for waiting to make large investments in their business is tiny compared to the uncertainty of how they will be taxed and regulated in the future and the uncertainty of when end customer demand will return.

9-9-9 compounds this uncertainty, and it is barking up the wrong tree.  The first order problem isn't how we fund government, it's the size and scope of government that need to be addressed.  Can a new tax code create positive incentives on the margin? sure, but it doesn't even make the needle quiver on the government spending.

Rick Perry said something early on that really resonated with me: "I will work to make government inconsequential in your daily lives" or something like that.  Amen, brother. It's a pity he turned out to be a stuttering narcoleptic in the debates. Obama would destroy him in any debate, so he's out of the game.

Cain's a buffoon. Romney's a big government custodian.  Who's left? Newt?

104 Our man at MSNBC is working on a list of our demands.

105 "Nothing should be off the table" That's all I found at Cain's website about cutting spending. Vague and non-comittal. YES, he talks about balancing the budget via massive spending cuts. WHAT CUTS? " It will be hard enough to apply pressure on America's bureaucracy-for-life once he's elected, but if he's not prepared to argue for smaller government en route to office he's certainly not going to do so afterwards." - Steyn (After America) Any Cain fans heard any specifics about cuts?

106 Okay, who broke the blog?  I can't get my morning cup of DOOM!

107 Any Cain fans heard any specifics about cuts?

Posted by: Comrade Arthur
..............
I haven't really heard much in the way of specifics from any one them.

It is hard to be specific when talking about cuts.. you are going to offend some portion of the voting public.  So, most will just stick to "cut government spending as a percentage of GDP".. that kind of rhetoric..

108 Obama would destroy him in any debate, so he's out of the game. This is so fucking stupid. You guys are prepared to throw away the best overall candidate we have because you're worried about how he might fare in some debate one year from now as though the general election is going to be decided by debates. Really? The country's going to hell in a handbasket, but we're going to nominate the used car salesman because we're afraid of our own shadows.

109 Okay, who broke the blog? I can't get my morning cup of DOOM! Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 18, 2011 09:01 AM (8y9MW) obama is still in the White House. Ain't that enough Doom for any day?

110

I don't know too much about the tax code or these plans; your analysis makes sense except for one point:

Every time I hear him tout 9-9-9, I just can't get over the fact that a stated goal was that it remain revenue neutral... meaning that it's designed to keep feeding the beast.

If we had a revenue neutral change and then only spent what we brought in, that would be a wonderful reduction of bloat with no diminished services and libs & the media (birm) crying the end of the world.

111 Any Cain fans heard any specifics about cuts? When he was asked specifically at one of the debates what he would cut, He said one of the big Federal Depts, it may have been EPA, but he led me to believe he was all about killing the big Gov. Orgs.

112

113 > 108 Any Cain fans heard any specifics about cuts? Posted by: Comrade Arthur .............. I haven't really heard much in the way of specifics from any one them. It is hard to be specific when talking about cuts.. you are going to offend some portion of the voting public. So, most will just stick to "cut government spending as a percentage of GDP".. that kind of rhetoric.. Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry Yeah, I realize why candidates don't want to be specific. (see my comment #6). Seems to me if you want to be the DIFFERENT candidate that's a rule you might want to break.

114 I have two windows up on my Computer, one is the Cain plan and the other is AoS. There are legitimate concearns like, How do you stop 999 from becoming 121212. There are also some really big lies and smears. Some have taken this Vat tax lie and held it as tight as the green movement holds global warming. Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 18, 2011 08:46 AM

^^^^THIS^^^^

Two things to add: (1) Who the f*** else is proposing anything even remotely workable? I don't consider "we gotta spend less" and "Cain's plan'll raise everyone's taxes!!11!!" as proposals.

(2) Cain, unlike standard-issue political hacks, has actually done things. He has real-world experience, which is one hell of a lot different than anything you find in D.C. One component of that is trying things and, if they don't work as advertised, fixing/replacing them. The man is no fool; he has already said "9-9-9" is a step, not an end result.

I honestly don't know why the first reaction among "conservatives" is to piss in their candidates' cornflakes. When the alternatives are raving America-haters (Osama Obama) or squishy progressive Repubs (Mutt Romney), I would think someone who actually has spent time in the real world deserves better treatment than he's getting.

Or do some of y'all just want to pout until the Perfect Candidate magically appears?

115 ..........

116 @83 Phoenix-second phase MY ASS! It's just an additional new tax to pay and they double pinkie promise-they SWEAR- they'll repeal the other one-SOMEDAY. BULLSHIT-Cain is dead to me,no conservative in his right mind would advocate ADDING a new tax with the promise of repealing one in the distant future-sounds exactly like a damn liberal

117

What sane person would believe that the US federal government would be content with these rates for long? Eventually, they would be subject to tax creep; the country would end up with higher rates AND a "national sales tax."

I can't see how many of you are missing a huge point here. Once everybody is paying taxes, the constituency for raising them is pretty much gone. It's cake to raise taxes on the other guy, not so easy when the guy is you.

This is not to say 9-9-9 is the greatest thin since lubricated condoms, but it does have this baked in the cake.

118

If weÂ’re going to base policy on a few extreme cases like yours, we should go ahead and enact universal cradle to grave health care. 

Posted by: jwest at October 18, 2011 08:42 AM (qeYI9)

That was one example.I recommend you go to your financial program and print out a list of all your categories of expenses and imagine a sales tax on nearly all of them.

119 Temporary Taxes only last a few hundred years or so.

120 MrScribbler at October 18, 2011 09:04 AM They want Perry but their smooth straight talking Texan has been puking on his shoes since the first debate. His wife isn't helping much either.

121

109 Obama would destroy him in any debate, so he's out of the game.

This is so fucking stupid. You guys are prepared to throw away the best overall candidate we have because you're worried about how he might fare in some debate one year from now as though the general election is going to be decided by debates. Really? The country's going to hell in a handbasket, but we're going to nominate the used car salesman because we're afraid of our own shadows.

----------

Here here!

Well....at least no one is calling him "scary Perry" and making fun of his accent any more. Heh.

I'm sticking with Perry. ......And I hate these dumbass debates. They are media-generated bullshit.

122

So let me see if I have this straight:

Perry is doing a bang-up Fred Thompson impression and is therefore doomed.  Check.

Willard is an unlikeable, say-anything used car saleman RINO and is therefore doomed.  Check.

Cain is an unelectable amateur with fairydust tax reform ideas and is therefore doomed.  Check. 

SCFOAMF will divide and conquer and we as a nation are therefore doomed.  Check.

Where's my scotch?

123 Here is the thing... you didn't have to worry about any of this with Palin.  She doesn't say stupid things about foreign policy like Cain does and she is not so oblivious as to create a completely new way for the government to skin us through a VAT.  But everyone was content to let the media pick our candidate for us and not think for themselves.

Now we are going to be stuck with Romney just like we were stuck with McCain.  And we will deserve it because we can't stick up for our own and we can't fight for what we want.

I was hoping Perry would be the answer but he isn't gaining traction and has underwhelmed in the debates.  We have to hope he turns it around. Bachmann actually is what everyone accuses Palin of being so she is out.   9-9-9 removes Cain from contention.  I guess we are down to Paul.  His foreign policy would be a disaster but in the end no worse than Obama's.  At least he wouldn't start a trade war with the Chinese in the middle of a recession.  And he is the only one with a realistic view as to what it will take to keep us from going the way of Greece.  The entertainment value alone would be worth the ride.

Ace is big on electability but if you will notice it doesn't matter who is at the head of the Republican field.  Once they move there the polls show them beating Chauncey or being close enough that it doesn't matter.

124 Vic is misrepresenting much of the flat tax. the 100,000 surgery won't be 100,000 because much of the existing tax burden will have already be removed.

Yeah, another one of those "features" of the unFair Tax. Prices will go down. Hey, I'm still trying to sell that time share condo in FL, you interested?

125 I can't see how many of you are missing a huge point here. Once everybody is paying taxes, the constituency for raising them is pretty much gone. Thats a great point. I think in the big picture it is the point.

126 Also, we are not talking about a "flat tax" which I am in favor of. We are talking about the "fair tax" and 9-9-9. 

127 Some people need to just go ahead and move to Montana and build the bunker and disconnect their Internet service.

128 obama is still in the White House. Ain't that enough Doom for any day?

Well, Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure, but somehow that doesn't satisfy my need for DOOM!. 

As for the 9-9-9 plan: It sucks.  It has great, vacuum-like qualities.  Light can escape a black-hole easier than it can the great suckitude of the 9-9-9 plan.

Okay, that may be a little harsh, but you get my point.  Based on actual reality, here is what would happen in Herman Cain's best case scenario: He achieves the Presidency, and sometime in the first year (it would take that long, at least) he gets his 9-9-9 plan passed.  Now, he's taxing: Income (private and corporate) and consumption.  That means I'm paying 9% of my wages for the incredible privilege of... earning wages.  Then I'm paying 9% of the price of an item for the incredible privilege of... purchasing an item.  Oh.  With that same income that had already been taxed once.  Yay me.

Now, let's assume the rosy scenario: this double taxation actually leads to economic rebound.  At that point, the electorate checks out (why worry about taxes during a time of prosperity, right?) and we're stuck with this double-taxation plan.  Soon enough, the Democrats come along, and the Republicans have handed them double-taxation on a silver platter.

No "two phase" tax plan will work- it must be done in one step.  A Sales tax will work (if done properly- but that's the hard part, isn't it?) if we have enough votes to amend the Constitution to remove the Federal Government's power to levy an income tax.  If we don't have that power, then the best we can do is the Flat tax.  Yes, the Democrats can corrupt it again once they're in power again, but at least we haven't lost anything from where we are now.

129 .....

130 Taxing gross corporate income would hit Hollywood hardest, those thieving dirtbags, so it has that going for it, which is nice.

131 Posted by: nevergiveup at October 18, 2011 08:56 AM (i6RpT)

I hope that many of the worst of these scum will meet an untimely end...courtesy of Mossad.

132 Fuck it all, let's just keep the current tax rates, the IRS, all the spending, and SCOAMF in the White House another four fucking years.

133 Vic at October 18, 2011 09:09 AM (YdQQY) I'm with you Vic, Which Candidate is supporting the Flat tax?

134 and the GOP Congress is going to have a hard time spitting in the face of the central plank of their president's platform.

Don't I know it!

135 Yea , great vic let's throw out the good because it's not perfect and go with the guy that built the socialized medicine model. Your intellect is dizzying.

Posted by: Brainpimp at October 18, 2011 08:53 AM (vYToD)

Your intellect is so amazing you can't read.

136 I honestly don't know why the first reaction among "conservatives" is to piss in their candidates' cornflakes. When the alternatives are raving America-haters (Osama Obama) or squishy progressive Repubs (Mutt Romney), I would think someone who actually has spent time in the real world deserves better treatment than he's getting.

Or do some of y'all just want to pout until the Perfect Candidate magically appears?
Posted by: MrScribbler
............
Now is the time to piss in their cornflakes, not when it's too late and you have nominated a candidate with ideas so out of touch that he is guaranteed to lose in the general.

Yes, Cain is a very likable candidate.. his real-world background should be a desirable trait we look for in any candidate.  He speaks well and forcefully.

But this 9-9-9 plan is just plain stupid.  If pointing that out is pissing on the man and his accomplishments, then so be it.  I don't see it that way.

137 Or do some of y'all just want to pout until the Perfect Candidate magically appears?

Posted by: MrScribbler at October 18, 2011 09:04 AM (YjjrR)

Magic would be nice, but in the meantime, Cain has put something on the table that is almost understandable (see many AoS threads as evidence that it is not completely understandable) and that offers to alter the current corrupt tax structure.  Is 9-9-9 the final version, probably not, but do you really prefer statists (like Romney) offering to tweak the existing systems (such as the tax code and health care) at the margins because they (and only their fellow Ivy League cronies) know how it should really be done??

Offhand, I am beginning to think Cain's lack of any political experience is a feature not a bug, sort of like Obama's lack of any real world experience was a bug not a feature!

138 Have you heard about my 23,947-point plan for tax code simplification?

139 I can't see how many of you are missing a huge point here. Once everybody is paying taxes, the constituency for raising them is pretty much gone. Thats a great point. I think in the big picture it is the point. ^^^^ AMEN. Transparency... plus everyone paying... that will drive allies and spending cuts. Not angry people beating their chests yelling "don't you idiots get it?!?! Just cut spending!!!"

140

"In every country that has established a VAT with the promise of reducing its national debt, the VAT has eventually gone up or expanded on top of the existing tax structure."

Wrong.

The Conservative government in Canada promised a reduction in the VAT (HST) if elected.

When Canadian Prime Minister Steve Harper won a minority government some years ago he actually came through. The 7% Canadian VAT was reduced to 5% and has stayed there till now....or whenever the leftists regain power.

141

Yeah, another one of those "features" of the unFair Tax. Prices will go down.

Okay, Vic. Admit you're struggling a little here. Prices going down are a problem in America?

142 'm with you Vic, Which Candidate is supporting the Flat tax?

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 18, 2011 09:11 AM (ZDUD4)

Steve Forbes (LOL)

143 Well the bottom line is, the 16th Amendment is never going to be repealed.  Even if it magically achieves a 2/3rds vote in Congress, there are enough blue states to reject the amendment.

So if we are stuck with an income tax, let's make sure that is the only thing we are stuck with, and not another tax.

144 Offhand, I am beginning to think Cain's lack of any political experience is a feature not a bug, sort of like Obama's lack of any real world experience was a bug not a feature! ^^^THIS^^^ And that right there is why he is leading in some polls. Obama, the inexperianced, has taken this country closer to socialism/marxism that any other president before. It is what he wanted to do. He had no intention of making things better. Imagine someone one more experianced and way smarter, only on our side.

145 Once everybody is paying taxes, the constituency for raising them is pretty much gone. It's cake to raise taxes on the other guy, not so easy when the guy is you.

Right.  Hey, I've got a bridge to sell you in New York.  You interested?

Seriously- the only thing that makes this even appear workable is the "flat tax" portion of it.  But that goes away as soon as Democrats are in control.  I'm not concerned about a 12,12,12 plan.  I'm concerned about a 0/9/18/27,9,9 plan.  Actually, let's be more realistic: 0/9/18/27,30,9 plan.

Tell me the Democrats won't salivate over the possibility of a Graduated Income Tax, Plus a relatively large Corporate Income Tax, plus a national sales tax.  Heck, at that point, they could even sell it as "a tax cut for 95% of the population" and make it a 0/9/18/27,30,5 plan.

146 ........

147 A Sales tax will work (if done properly- but that's the hard part, isn't it?) if we have enough votes to amend the Constitution to remove the Federal Government's power to levy an income tax.
..........
No it won't "work".  A sales tax big enough to fund the federal government would kick in the creative American mind that would find myriad ways to avoid paying those taxes.  Half the economy would run in a black market.

Income tax is the most logical way to tax.  Let's just clean up all the loopholes and deductions and lower corporate rates to encourage businesses. Like Rick Perry said, if you put Americans back to work, the rest of the crap takes care of itself.

148 Vic at October 18, 2011 09:15 AM (YdQQY) And that's my point.

149 Posted by: NonCentsical at October 18, 2011 09:12 AM (9BtSu)
Seems to me that this is an important point.  If you could achieve taxes that were transparent and readily visible, the representatives in Congress wold be hard pressed to raise them without incurring the wrath of 99% of the voters.

150

Okay, Vic. Admit you're struggling a little here. Prices going down are a problem in America?

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 18, 2011 09:13 AM (puy4B)

Anyone who depends on prices going down in the short term after enacting the so-called fair tax is a damn fool. It is not me who is "struggling" here.

151 145 ...Perry is supporting the Flat Tax. .....And Steve Forbes is his lead economic advisor.

152 There is nothing any tax plan will do for us if we don't cut spending and by hundreds of billions, not a billion or seven.

We don't have a revenue problem (we have a tax code problem, but that's a different issue, IMO), but we have an enormous spending problem.

As the OP said, Old and busted: Cutting government down to size. The new hotness: Designing a better way to fund big government. If this is the real state of conservative policymaking now, we are well and truly boned.

As I posted a few days ago, we've seen an overall drift to the left, even by so-called conservatives.  The TP revolution made a small ripple in the ocean of debt we've created.  Spending still went up and based on the current GOP candidates we're not guaranteed to see any structural shift in government size and scope even if an R wins in '12.  That Romney is still viable as an R is laughable.  Romneycare at any level was a grotesque expansion of government and reduction in personal and economic liberty.  It doesn't matter if the people of MA "wanted" it, he should not have aided and abetted their addiction to government nanny-care.

We're boned, because the general populace has "wanted" more and more government goodies and because we have a leadership entrenched on both sides that has been all to willing to oblige. 

153 And that's my point.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at October 18, 2011 09:16 AM (ZDUD4)

And my point is 9-9-9 is worse than what we have for almost all Americans. (and so is the unFair Tax)

154 Like Rick Perry said, if you put Americans back to work, the rest of the crap takes care of itself.

So now all that needs to be done is for Rick Perry to not fall asleep at the debates, and recite something other than bland generalities...

155 ...Perry is supporting the Flat Tax. ..

I haven't seen that, have you got a link? I will add it to the Perry eval.

156 What good is being elected if I can't play with other people's money?

157

IÂ’m with Allen G.

 

If the goal is to get to the Fair Tax, go for it now.

158 @117,

Exactly what Anthony Earl (Gov WI 80's)  (not the reverse name of the left-handed bowler), said about increasing the state sales tax from 4 to 5 but stated it'll go back down when so-and-so was paid off.

159

@146...So better, fairer, less corruptable ideas are not to be considered because it might be kind of a long, tough slog to get them passed? 

Damn, I'd better turn in my concealed carry permit then. 

160 Andy's critiques of 9-9-9 are fair; "revenue neutral" isn't a feature to me, and the Sixteenth Amendment is a moral atrocity that certainly delenda est. Still, there isn't anything else on the table of which I am aware that gets us out of the "farm the government" business, and for all its flaws, it's better than anything Slick Willard is saying...today.

But I'm reminded of the old joke from 2008, reworked a little: "I like Cthulhu's foreign policy of destroying everything and devouring anyone, but not so much his domestic policy of destroying everything and devouring anyone. Still better than Romney, though."

161

Tell me the Democrats won't salivate over the possibility of a Graduated Income Tax, Plus a relatively large Corporate Income Tax, plus a national sales tax.  Heck, at that point, they could even sell it as "a tax cut for 95% of the population" and make it a 0/9/18/27,30,5 plan.

Don't forget to factor in the various items that would be exempted from the sales tax (to include all Medicaid, WIC, EBT, and various other welfare programs), and pretty soon not only will 50% be paying all the income taxes but they'll also be paying all the sales taxes too.

162
Not this S#!% again.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at October 18, 2011 08:48 AM (ieDPL)

Yes, this S#!% again. Followed by another DOOM thread. Gets tiresome, doesn't it?

163 If you turn it over and divide by 3 you get 222.

164 Lots of folks around here claim to love free market supply-side economics... but some are terrified of the prospect of letting the market work and set prices... sigh.

165 @146...So better, fairer, less corruptable ideas are not to be considered because it might be kind of a long, tough slog to get them passed?

Cain isn't proposing repealing the 16th Amendment.  At least the FairTax guys are.

166

158 ...Perry is supporting the Flat Tax. ..

I haven't seen that, have you got a link? I will add it to the Perry eval.
-------

He's been saying it for like.....forever. Hell, he said it last week in a couple of interviews that are on video.

Sorry, I don't have a linky.....but it's not news. He's always been for the Flat Tax.

167 I can't believe anyone is taking this gasbag seriously. 

168 Vic,
RedState says Perry supports the flat tax.... or at least leaning that way.
Linky.

PerryÂ’s message has to contrast with the two other real candidates in the race at this point – Cain and Romney.  Taxes is his opportunity. In Romney, we have a Â’59-pointÂ’ plan that is so many points because it is so small. ItÂ’s a plan to negotiate and tinker. CainÂ’s 9-9-9 is the hot, bold plan. But with a sales tax being added, the viability and sellability of that plan is being questioned.  ItÂ’s both interesting and encouraging that Perry is leaning on Flat Tax proponent Steve Forbes for advice

169

The worst part of the 999 plan is Cain's defense of it.  A Republican candidate who tells poor folk to buy used stuff feeds the liberal narrative of the uncaring conservative.  It smacks of "Let them eat cake!" It's a terrible image to promote and yet Cain supporters don't see any problem with it and get outright nasty at anyone who objects to the idea. 

But aside from the image problem, there is also a moral issue involved with taxing food.  As far as I know, no state with a sales tax taxes food.  There are some exceptions for prepared meals and what's considered "junk food", but if there is any state that taxes things like flour, butter, milk, meat, etc... I'd love to hear what state taxes it now.  It's downright immoral for the government to tax the food we eat.  It crosses a line the government has never crossed before.  But Cain supporters seem to be totally lacking in any principles at all.  They don't get it.

   

170 I know any national sales tak scares the hell out of people, it scares the hell out of me. But until someone has an idea on how to collect a fair amount from Trust fund babies, drug dealers, illegal immigrants etc, I don't see another way. I don't know how many people know this but in the inner cities there are entire economies that are completely off the grid. Hair care salons, Auto repair, home repair every business you can imagine conducted underground, many through barter but many others through cash, drug money etc. Time for everyone to get skin in the game.

171 As far as I know, no state with a sales tax taxes food.

Missouri does

172

175

Shame on Missouri. 

173 59 ... Perry's flaming out (and doesn't believe in enforcing immigration law), and the others don't have a prayer.

I get that most of the HQ is in the tank for Perry, and that's fine....

Posted by: Lance McCormick at October 18, 2011 08:35 AM (/D8ux)

Nice talking point but just not true. Just where does he say he doesn't believe in immigration law enforcement?

174

Jaynie59,

 

Taxing food is essential, because every retail sale needs to be taxed to avoid the government picking winners and losers.

 

If you allowed food to go untaxed, constituency groups would be lobbying for their items to be exempted too.  “You canÂ’t tax clothes! Think of the naked children!”.   Â“Taxing books?  Why are we discouraging learning?”  “You canÂ’t tax cars!  People need to get to work!”

175

The beast is already starving.

If the 9-9-9 plan is revenue neutral, we still need to cut over $1 trillion to break even.

 

176 Hitler reacts to being compared to Obama By Hank Williams JR. Link.

177 I really, really like Herman Cain. But, that said... CUT THE FUCKING SPENDING. SHRINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Rant over.

178

OK found this on Perry and Flat Tax at Business Insider (liberal)

They say he was for it in his book but has since "walked it back". I'll look some more.

179 175 As far as I know, no state with a sales tax taxes food.

Missouri does

--

I think we just had a legislator try to pass that here (UT), too.  I can't recall if it passed or not. 

I also think it's stupid.

But I'm against the national sales tax idea. 

180 all i know is i really was buying into the 999.....from what i read and what cain said.....no tax on seniors living off social security or dividends....no death tax....income only being taxed once so investment income would not be taxed......no tax on USED GOODS....taxes were on NEW Durable goods only....

181 Virginia taxes food at 2.5%. Hot food at 5%.

182

#178

That's when principles matter.

183 As far as I know, no state with a sales tax taxes food.

Missouri does

Posted by: chemjeff at October 18, 2011 09:31 AM (OoiW1)

Up until a few years ago mine did as well.

184 az doesn't tax food at grocery stores.....but.......if you buy food at say office depot.....guess what.....you are taxed.....

185

@168:  Cain isn't proposing repealing the 16th Amendment.  At least the FairTax guys are.

Cain *is* a Fair Tax guy.  Why isn't it he running on it?  Because it would be demagogued to death...like 9-9-9 is right here and now.

Does this campaign plan have way more machinations than I'd really like?  Sure.  Absolutely.  But you cannot say the man is wrong about this plan being eaten alive during the election process. 

If the Fair Tax (or any other meaningful tax reform) is going to be successfully sold to the publicly-schooled, Tardasil-addled American electorate, it's going to need to be done from The Bully Pulpit, not the parking lot of a Honda dealer in Bumfuck, Iowa.

186 Has Cain ever said whether his 9% sales tax applies to Internet Sales?

187 Regressive taxes have no chance of succeeding in America.

188

the 999 would not tax social security or income from investments...... Unless you buy something with it.

189

But you cannot say the man is wrong about this plan being eaten alive during the election process.

I'd be more happy with a genuine fair tax - which I don't terribly love either, count me as a flat tax guy. I think part of it must be that a genuine fair tax, by virtue of needing a repeal of the income tax, is even more unrealistic than this 999 plan.

190 I think there should be a flat 9% income tax, 9% corporate tax, and de nada. That's already more than enough.

191 Ron Paul!

192

We can call it 9-nein-9.

193 F*ck it, let's all just vote for Romney.  He's never come up with a bad idea or implemented anything that any of us find objectionable, right?  Let's not worry about how the MBM and the left are absolutely salivating for his nomination or anything, about how they're just sitting around writing stories and building up ammo to unleash on him as soon as he's nominated, McCain-style.  Or about how his nomination immediately takes off the table any attacks on Obamacare or corporate donations.

194 This year I paid some $2,700 in taxes (could/would not risk too much to get my wife's income down more).

Under Cain's plan, we'd pay over $9,000--nevermind that my business paid out almost exactly in expenses--actual business expenses, not depreciation, etc,--than I made, I gotta pay taxes on that.

Then, when I borrow money to buy food--'cause his plan hasn't left me any money--I get to pay another 9% tax on that on top of the state's 8.25%?

Fuck you, Cain! His plan will destroy--absolutely destroy--small business owners and the self-employed.

And I'm getting real tired with you all Cain supporters thinking I need to pay more in taxes so you can fulfill your fantasy of our own inexperienced, clean, articulate black man in the White House.

195

Criticism of Cain's 9-9-9 plan is not an endorsement of Romney. I don't like Romney and have no plans on voting for him in the primary. But, lets not bank our hopes on a plan that would get killed in a general election either.

Seems we're just playing the left/MBM's game, ganging up on whatever non-Romney candidate is surging, while leaving Mittens alone, even though he's got countless, endless flaws that we'd be tearing into were he anyone else.  What on earth would lead us to believe that Mittens wouldn't get killed in the general, as soon as the MBM starts laying into him?

196

Cain and 9-9-9: Ushering in the American Swap Meet and Flea Market Economy!

It will definetly give them a big incentive.

And that will also nuke tax returns if it catches on. Not that I'm crying about that... but me thinks the greedy bastards might take exception.

197 And I'm getting real tired with you all Cain supporters thinking I need to pay more in taxes so you can fulfill your fantasy of our own inexperienced, clean, articulate black man in the White House.

198

I'm not ganging up on Cain. I like Cain.

I think even if Cain becomes President, even though I don't care for it, this 9-9-9 stuff doesn't really bother me that much, because it isn't really going to happen.

199 I find it very difficult to get too invested in the primaries, simply because by the time voting roles around to my state, the race has already been determined. 

I really have no say in the matter.
I'd like to get all fired up, but it is a useless waste of energy.

200

And the fact that Cain's supporters, instead of addressing the merits of the criticism, run out the "your playing into the media's hand" card, tells me that the criticism is warranted.

I'm not a Cain supporter, I'm a Perry supporter.  I've said here before, back when Perry was going through the ringer, that I'm done caring, that I'm voting Perry when my turn comes, regardless.  But I'd vote for frickin' Ron Paul before Romney, but the way things are going, Romney's going to be the only one left standing.

201

What on earth would lead us to believe that Mittens wouldn't get killed in the general, as soon as the MBM starts laying into him?

My friends, didn't this work well enough in 2008?

202

"From Cain's website, the business tax would be, in part: "Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses"

So, no, businesses don't pay it as well, at least, not on materials bought in the US they use to make products out of."

Be quiet.  You will offend all the Perry supporters here by stating facts.

203 I made the mistake of flipping around the radio driving in this morning and I caught the local hard/modern rock station talking about Herman Cain. The one guy, who claimed to vote for Chick Baldwin (Constitution Party) in the last election was all for Herman, though they disagreed on the 9-9-9 plan. They read a couple emails after a break, and the second one said something close to the following (paraphrasing) "Herman's plan is closer to socialism than anything Obama has ever done. We cannot expect WalMart greeters and CEO's to fairly pay the same rate of tax unless we fairly pay them the same wage." Remind me, which part of that was socialist? I know, I was listening to a modern/hard rock station AM drive talk, but the stupid really burns sometimes.

204

211...... the way things are going, Romney's going to be the only one left standing.

Naaa.....don't count Perry out just yet. He's got money in his war chest and he's being a miser with it right now. .....I think he's in it for the long haul.

Right now the bullseye is on Cain's back instead of Perry's. ....No one seems to be noticing that Perry didn't whine about it like Cain is whining right now.

When retirees and people making under $60K start figuring out how much they would be taxed under Cain's 999 plan......his poll numbers will crash.

205

"From Cain's website, the business tax would be, in part: "Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses"

So, no, businesses don't pay it as well, at least, not on materials bought in the US they use to make products out of."

Be quiet.  You will offend all the Perry supporters here by stating facts.

Wait, he's got protectionism baked into this thing too?

How the hell does anyone know where their materials are coming from? How are they going to keep records on that now?

Jeez, this just got substantially worse.

And what the hell is "gross income less US material costs"? Do you mean gross profit??? I'd hate to think that if you operating at a loss, you'd still owe taxes.

206

Critics here mainly ignore the elimination of the FICA tax. 

Individuals and businesss each now pays about 7 1/2 percent on wages up to a  limit.  A limit that few hit.  Self employed people pay the whole 15%.

People who actually pay income taxes usually pay at least 10% net income tax after deductions, credits etc. on top of FICA.

So, 9% will be better for most, if not all of the 53% that actually pay income taxes.

 

207

Here's my question.

Does anybody support my plan to subsidize $5 items with $4 of subsidies, to be sold to the Chinese for $1?

No?!?!?

You think that's ridiculous, that the US taxpayer should subsidize chinese citizen's purchases?

OK, then why are we opposed when other countries do the same damn thing to us, subsidizing our purchases with their government money?

Because it's like... unfair, or something. like. Awareness. Dude.  

208 184 175 As far as I know, no state with a sales tax taxes food.

Missouri does

--

I think we just had a legislator try to pass that here (UT), too.  I can't recall if it passed or not. 

I also think it's stupid.

But I'm against the national sales tax idea. 

Posted by: Y-not at October 18, 2011 09:35 AM (5H6zj)

Idaho taxes food too. In fact, I thought Texas was the exception, where no food is taxed. That means I can spend $100 for the week at the grocery store and not pay a dime in taxes. It's actually a pretty huge benefit to the poor.

209

193 ....Has Cain ever said whether his 9% sales tax applies to Internet Sales?

I don't see how the Internet could be exempted.

210

One thing that people ignore when discussing tax policy is what plan will grow the economy?  As most on the right understand, growth is the most important thing.

 

With this in mind, no plan comes close to the Fair Tax plan.  If instituted as written, manufacturers would need to be insane not to locate in the U.S.  Export sales would soar because of the price advantage U.S. based companies would enjoy.  Capital from every corner of the globe would flow to the U.S. as the new tax haven for investors.

 

Growth is the key to everything.

211 Mr. L's Tavern:  Is USA Ready for a 3rd Party?

212 I can't see how many of you are missing a huge point here. Once everybody is paying taxes, the constituency for raising them is pretty much gone.

Wrong. Provably and fucking obviously wrong.

In actual polls of actual voters, the desire to see taxes raised correlates positively with current level of taxation. When people are getting their money taken, they want other people's money taken more.

People with "skin in the game" want to see others get skinned. And they value that over their own skin. Being hurt, they want vengeance against people they imagine—because getting hurt robs people of empathy and reason—hurt less.

See, e.g, yourselves.

When's the last time you saw someone here happy that people with minimum-wage incomes don't pay federal taxes? "Good for them! They have enough problems!" Never.

213 What on earth would lead us to believe that Mittens wouldn't get killed in the general, as soon as the MBM starts laying into him?
-----
You know, I could accept it if Mitt were being sold to us as the best choice based on his policies.  I'd even handle, although less well, an argument based on his resume (personally, I think Perry has the best resume of the candidates that are in the running; Huntsman's resume is also quite good, even if he sucks as a person).  But it chaffes my hide to have to hear that Mitt is the most electable. 

He has not been vetted through a general election.  He, and the entire Republican establishment, had an attack of the vapors based on what a lone minister said about a theological point over Mitt's religion.  They are going to drop dead once the media starts unleashing on the religion and Mitt's personal history.  (That picture of Mitt from his Bain Capital days is pretty killer in the country's current class-warfare atmosphere.) 

214

Idaho taxes food too. In fact, I thought Texas was the exception, where no food is taxed. That means I can spend $100 for the week at the grocery store and not pay a dime in taxes. It's actually a pretty huge benefit to the poor.

Yeah, um, in Illinois you most certainly pay sales tax on food.

215

I concur with Y-not, Romney's mormonism is a liability whether anyone wants it to be or not. All religions may have their wacky zaney bits, but with the 80% religion it's all 'baked into the cake', we're use to it, we grew up with it, 80% of everyone beleives it.

But you won't get that pass with the Mormon stuff. Their weirdness is weird.

Largely because Republicans have decided it does not matter (and hey, good on them), Romney has not really been hard vetted on the religion issue. He will be. In the general it will matter.

He also hasn't gotten hit all the hard on anything else, either.

 

216 177 59 ... Perry's flaming out (and doesn't believe in enforcing immigration law), and the others don't have a prayer.

I get that most of the HQ is in the tank for Perry, and that's fine....

Posted by: Lance McCormick at October 18, 2011 08:35 AM (/D8ux)

Nice talking point but just not true. Just where does he say he doesn't believe in immigration law enforcement?

Oh, you don't remember his "heartless" comment?  Of all the ways to play that, he chose the worst one.  I like his energy plan, and several other things about him, but I destest the cult that's formed around him where he is pure and golden and everyone else is the Devil himself.  All candidates are imperfect.

Look.  Romney's plan is to be the last one standing- outlast all the others  (He does have a significant money advantage, so, yeah, it's a good plan.)  As long as people are beating up on Cain, Romney's winning, *unless* they can also build up Perry or beat up on Romney too.

I propose a Perryite-Cainiac cease-fire so we can focus on eliminating known Socialist Romney. 

217 #204 - 90% of the comments here are anti-Romney.  As others have stated we need to take a detailed look at 999 now before it gets crushed by the Dems in the general.  This election will, unless somethiing dramatic happens overseas, on the US economy, jobs, size of govt, etc.  So fully vetting a tax plan is necessary,

218 I guess now that this post is nearly dead, I'll throw this out there:
On the left, the 9-9-9 plan is becoming a punchline; they've already laughed at it finding out it came from SimCity; now SimCity is on sale for $9.99.
They've already had the hit piece tying him to the Koch brothers.
They are keeping their powder dry on how much Cain and Romney made as CEO's.
No, the black community does not like Cain.
No matter how you slice it or dice it: Most of us are going to pay more under a Cain Presidency--we get new taxes in exchange for shiny promises of spending cuts later. But it's a good deal when our black President proposes it; a very bad deal when their black President proposed it.

219

Seriously, I'm basically agnostic/atheist so what the hell do I care.

But start telling everyone Mormons believe that Jesus wasn't always a God, and neither was God, and someday you too can be a God of your own universe, and we'll see if no one seems to mind.

220 For people who live paycheck to paycheck, it's easier to think of the taxes on individuals as an 18% tax: 9% on the money coming in (personal income tax) and then another 9% on the money going out (sales tax). If you want to get picky, it actually comes to about 17%, since you don't pay the second tax on the money that got taxed away coming in. So, you then have to ask yourself 2 questions. One, if you add up your current income and payroll taxes, do they total more or less than the 17% you would pay in replacement taxes? Two, what are the 2nd order effects of the change in taxes to all the business you do business with? Will they pay more or less in taxes under the new system? Since they pass on all their costs to their customers, it would be nice to know how they will be effected.

The first question is much easier to answer. I haven't heard much discussion on the second question. Just how good or bad is the 9-9-9 plan for businesses?

221

I think it should be said that if we had a known, consistent, actual, by-the-numbers conservative (immigration enforcement, lower/simpler taxes, cut spending, strong defense, etc.) we wouldn't be having a mild civil war.

Just like in 2008, actually.  Yeah, part of this is normal and healthy, but why is it so hard?  Democrats don't have any problem playing to their base(s) and getting their True Believers nominated.

222 231

Seriously, I'm basically agnostic/atheist so what the hell do I care.

But start telling everyone Mormons believe that Jesus wasn't always a God, and neither was God, and someday you too can be a God of your own universe, and we'll see if no one seems to mind.

Posted by: Entropy at October 18, 2011 10:52 AM (qqRUQ)

That's not exactly how it goes, but: You're pretty darn close. However:  that is exactly how it will be explained in the general.

There is also the stuff about baptizing the dead. There is some other stuff that is going to get ripped and distorted--and it will be nothing short of evil.

That's why I hate the idea of a Romney candidacy: His vain pursuit of another line on his resume will hurt and attack a lot of good, good people who don't deserve it; those salt-of-the Earth Mormans.

He is the worst possible face for the Morman religion, second only to Harry Reid.

223 In 2007 SC revamped its sales taxes. It is really a hodge-podge now. Food and drugs are exempt. Also, the sales tax on a car is capped at $300.  The Statewide rate is fixed at 5%, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Local communities and counties are allowed to have local option sales taxes.

Currently my county the total sales tax is 8.5% and in the neighboring city the sales tax on prepared food and beverages is 10.5%.

When I first moved here the sales tax was 3% total everywhere. Now I would say that the State average is probably about 8%. The counties now love them some sales tax. Problem is, that is the first thing hit in an economic downturn.

224 @227

I linked to Hitchens' article (in Slate) about Mitt's LDS issues yesterday, but it didn't generate any discussion, mostly because Hitchens is so nastily anti-religion that people can't get past that and evaluate the point he was raising. 

Here's the thing.  The LDS church is not like most churches you'll find in the modern US.  It is much more of a cultural thing than most of us are used to.  The folks are lovely, but if you are doing it right, it impacts on every aspect of your life in a way that is certainly not true of modern American Catholics. 

Now maybe that's how religion should be.  I am not going to criticize someone who is taking their faith seriously 24/7.  But Hitchens' point in his (admittedly vitriol-filled) article was that it is fair game to consider the faith of Mitt because he was a lay minister (really, they are all lay-ministers, unlike say the Catholic Church where lay ministers are really just helping professional clergy) and because of the demands that the LDS faith places on its members from a very young age. 

All I can say is that I have never ever been asked about my religion more frequently than I have been here, nor has my husband ever been quizzed on (and criticized for, in a few cases) his denomination in a work setting like he has been here.  In addition, there is a tremendous pre-occupation with lineages in this culture.  When two Latter Day Saints meet for the first time they spend 10 minutes figuring out how they're related, if they served a mission together, shared a spiritual advisor, etc.  It's just part of how they conduct their faith.  So it's naive to think that has not influenced who Mitt is or who he would be as POTUS. 

I'm not saying that would keep me from voting for him -- his lack of core conservativism and scheming persona are what's turning me off -- but I would not be so quick to dismiss out of hand an inquiry into his personal life. 

Hey, if it's good enough for Herman Cain, it's good enough for the American people, right? 

225 Perry 2012.

226 If Perry doesn't rebound, we're boned. 

227

Because the fair tax hasnÂ’t gotten anywhere for at least 15 years, thatÂ’s why he isnt beating a dead horse. He needs something new to catch the eyes and ears of those who follow shiny objects and donÂ’t really know anything about economics or government. Also the VAT is different from what hes proposing on the national sales tax. A vat taxes every step along the way of production, his sales tax does not. And this guy is saying it will double your tax because of income and sales but the income tax will go down from over 15 right now to 9 so it wont hurt you like this guy is proposing. In addition he will remove taxes from investing in stocks, etc which we are currently being double-taxed on, as in our income that we choose to invest. This will save you more money and give incentive for investment which will stimulate the economy through PRIVATE voluntary means. Business gets a boost, jobs get a boost. Also the corporate tax which is now I believe around 35%(not including loopholes, but still highest in the world) will be cut to 9%(and loopholes removed) which will again stimulate private industry and promote hiring, and growth, and jobs coming back from places like China, which is good for everybody. And finally he is for cutting government down to size, and reducing regulations, and reigning in the EPA, and get the feds out of education, building a wall to keep out the Mongols, and other conservative ideals, he just is also for simplifying the tax code, cutting the IRS down to miniscule numbers and ending the thousands of tax loopholes that the writers of the tax code cant even adhere to (cough, Charley Wrangle), and getting those 47% of Americans who pay ZERO taxes to kick in a little (national sales tax) so maybe theyÂ’ll pay attention before they vote for higher taxes and more free handouts that actually donÂ’t come from a money tree. And yes Ive known that he wants to transition to a second phase, but the economy does need a jump start and im cool with Phase 2. Plus you have to remember that all of these things have to get through Congress first so weÂ’ll have to see what Capitol Hill looks like in 2013 before we can count on anything. Either way heÂ’s still more conservative(on ALL the issues), intelligent, trustworthy, and qualified than the other candidates.

228 But [flat//fair] is obviously regressive, and so it's just not. going. to. happen.

Damn, that line of unmitigated bullshit again?  Listen, a percentage point is not a dime.  You remit money in units, NOT ratios or percentages.  The assholes wrecking the nation spend dollars, not percentages of your damn income.

Flat/fair is naturally progressive.

Flat tax is not only the only just tax, in that it leaves everyone - you remember, sovereign citizens as the Constitutiona intended - off the fucking legal hook, but it taxes only your and his and her use of the miserable, destroyed American fiat economy.

The right seriously needs to yank its head out concerning flat and fair tax schemes and then again concerning why you must have all taxes paid through legal intermediaries - read, yes, corporations - in order to remain personally free.  The myth that corporations will raise prices in some bizarre rate somehow exponentially detached from the zero sum game that is the federal government spending real dimes and dollars is false. 

When prices rise to pay corporate taxes, they rise precisely aligned with vastly higher personal income.  But the cool thing is you're free again.

Think people. 

229

Mallamutt,

 

You assume that if FICA is eliminated, companies will keep the half they pay and not pass that along to the employee?

230 Fuck you, Cain! His plan will destroy--absolutely destroy--small business owners and the self-employed.

Ditto.

231

I propose a Perryite-Cainiac cease-fire so we can focus on eliminating known Socialist Romney. 

Works for me.

232 It is absolutely maddening to see just how completely the progressive income tax, a form of taxation originally and specifically verboten in the Constitution, has fucked with the minds of Americans.

Hell yes.

233

When prices rise to pay corporate taxes, they rise precisely aligned with vastly higher personal income.  But the cool thing is you're free again.

The obsessive tax focus of some people is something I do not understand.

No, the state of my freedom does not hinge on the tax code uber alles.

That is somewhat magical thinking, to think if we could just be taxed less we're all going to wake up in some kind of libertarian nirvana.

234 The obsessive tax focus of some people is something I do not understand

Yeah, I agree. 

I want someone to cut spending and reduce the scope of the federal government.  I won't vote for Ron Paul, so that leaves Perry. 

235

Right-wingers seem to be mostly obsessed with tax cuts.

Tax cuts are ephemeral. The taxes gut hiked, and cut, and hiked, and cut. It goes up and down and up again and down again. It's a very short term issue. No congress ever sets tax rates on anything except the next 2 years. Schemes about permanent tax changes are just that -schemes.

The spending side of the issue, that is the constant, that is what is killing us and that is what must be dealt with conclusively.

Revenue is irrelevant; federal spending must decrease by 50-75% of total expenditures.

236 I will vote for Ron Paul, especially if Romney is the nominee.

237

Mallamutt,

 

Under CainÂ’s plan, companies wouldnÂ’t pay a consumption tax.

 

The quickest way to go broke in business is fighting human nature.  Although the FICA tax is “separated” now as an employee and employer contribution, people and employers know that the entire FICA tax is an employee expense.

 

If an employer decided he was going to keep half of it, his employees would be lining up at his competitor who passed it along.  The competitor would skim the cream and broom his marginal staff, winning in the long run.  If the competitor was just as short sighted and greedy, the employees would take it upon themselves to equal things out by making sure they took enough toilet paper, copier toner or other things to compensate them for the loss. 

238 NIMBY apply to taxes too. In fact, especially to taxes. But unlike others I am glad we're having the discussion. Cain has brought the most serious discussion of actual tax reform (rather than how much) in a long time, If he overshot and we manage to just to reform and simplify a little bit he will have done us a great service. Amazingly, this is exactly what elections are for.

239 NIMBY apply to taxes too. In fact, especially to taxes. But unlike others I am glad we're having the discussion. Cain has brought the most serious discussion of actual tax reform (rather than how much) in a long time, If he overshot and we manage to just to reform and simplify a little bit he will have done us a great service. Amazingly, this is exactly what elections are for. Oh, and one more thing: I still don't understand why 9-9-9 is a VAT. I think I am dense.

240 Sorry for the double post. I have no business saying anything at all.

241 Your intellect is so amazing you can't read. Posted by: Vic at October 18, 2011 09:11 AM (YdQQY) And yours is so stunning you can't think.

242 What's Mitt's plan today?  I'm sure it has changed from what it was yesterday.

243 Yea , great vic let's throw out the good because it's not perfect and go with the guy that built the socialized medicine model. Your intellect is dizzying.

Posted by: Brainpimp at October 18, 2011 08:53 AM (vYToD)

---

Hey, newbie, Vic is a Perry guy. 

244

Revenue is irrelevant; federal spending must decrease by 50-75% of total expenditures.

Disagree.  Congress will spend everything they get and then some.  Period.

The Beast has to be starved until the unholy dynamic of  voters supporting politicians who bribe them with their own money gets dialed back to a manageable level.  But that species of Stupid is hard to kill.

245

Disagree.  Congress will spend everything they get and then some.  Period.

Exactly, and that is the crux. The "Starve the Beast" approach is 30 years old. It is long past time to admit it's abysmal failure.

If you do not feed the beast, the beast will just borrow food from the Chinese.

We need to tackle it's diet directly. The indirect approach does not work. We need to address spending as an issue of spending, and stop (obviously, wrongly, dispositively) hoping that we can deal with it without having to deal with it, by addressing taxes and revenue.

By this point, most people arguing for lower taxes are arguing that lower taxes will bring in MORE REVENUE.

Nice shot man, but it didn't work. New approach needed.

246 The more I learn about it, the less I like the 9-9-9 plan.

One thing not mentioned is that people with Roth IRAs (who are paying taxes now in order to withdraw tax-free when they retire) will now effectively have the withdrawals taxed yet AGAIN by the Federal Government.

Is a National Sales Tax even Constitutional (I don't believe it is)? That means an Amendment. I MUCH prefer a National Retail Sales tax at the point-of-sale. EVERYONE pays it, and EVERYONE sees it. EVERYONE feels the pain when it goes up  - no more free riders. However, the Constitutional issue will have to be addressed.

Income Tax  - what is to prevent Congress from later turning this into a progressive income tax system (again) and/or adding all sorts of deductions (for 'the poor').

I don't like the Fair tax - again, deductions will be used for social engineering.

A National Sales Tax + Cut-Cap-Balance is probably the best we can do. The sales tax must be contingent on repeal of the 16th Amendment, however.

I like Cain as a candidate but this plan isn't any good. That he is willing to put out A plan speaks volumes about it. We can't discuss the other candidates tax policies because they won't state them, thereby avoiding the debate. It seems Cain isn't afraid to throw his ideas out to see them sink or swim. That is important, and, if the primary were held today, I would vote for him.

No way will I vote for Romney. The only candidate I rank lower is Huntsman.

247 The more I look at retirement plans, the more concerned I am about putting money into them - yes, my employer match is nice, but I'm getting the feeling that not only are we going to get f'd with Social Security, but they'll screw us over on our IRAs as well.

248

I MUCH prefer a National Retail Sales tax at the point-of-sale. EVERYONE pays it, and EVERYONE sees it. EVERYONE feels the pain when it goes up  - no more free riders. 

Wait... what? It's not?

I have heard nothing about his 9% sales tax not being 'retail', or being linked to some idiotic 'buy American' campaign.

Neither of these details, if true, improves my overall opinion.

Is a National Sales Tax even Constitutional (I don't believe it is)? That means an Amendment.

No, it is constitutional. The income tax is what needed an ammendment (and it got it).

249 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

250

 but I'm getting the feeling that not only are we going to get f'd with Social Security, but they'll screw us over on our IRAs as well.

I do not contribute to mine. My employer is baffled and doesn't understand why, keeps prodding me to shove money in there so he can match it.

I tell him, it's basically this: A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

I don't really know if a dollar is going to be worth jack shit 40 years from now. Or even exist. So he matches every dollar with a dollar, but at todays price's that dollar buys a dollars worth of stuff. If I lock my money up where I can't touch it for 40 years, in 40 years that dollar and the employers matched dollar together may not buy a gumball.

To me, it's pretty simple. $5 today is worth alot more than $5 in 40 years.

I'd rather just have my damn money today, please. In money form. I don't need other people to plan my retirement, I actually (foolish, I know!) save some of my money.

251

I always buy American.

I buy the best goods at the lowest price, regardless of where they came from or what the seller's national origin, religion, or race is.

252

I MUCH prefer a National Retail Sales tax at the point-of-sale. EVERYONE pays it, and EVERYONE sees it. EVERYONE feels the pain when it goes up  - no more free riders. 

Wait... what? It's not?

I have heard nothing about his 9% sales tax not being 'retail', or being linked to some idiotic 'buy American' campaign.

Neither of these details, if true, improves my overall opinion.

Is a National Sales Tax even Constitutional (I don't believe it is)? That means an Amendment.

No, it is constitutional. The income tax is what needed an ammendment (and it got it).

Posted by: Entropy at October 18, 2011 12:23 PM (qqRUQ)

From Cain's site:
9% National Sales Tax.Unlike a state sales tax, which is an add-on tax that increases the price of goods and services, this is a replacement tax. It replaces taxes that are already embedded in selling prices. By replacing higher marginal rates in the production process with lower marginal rates, marginal production costs actually decline, which will lead to prices being the same or lower, not higher.

This doesn't seem like a National RETAIL sales tax. I think of Retail as 'point-of-sale' to individuals for consumption (ie, food bought my you and I, TVs, cars, etc).

This description seems vague to me. What tax is it replacing that is already embedded in goods? It seems to imply that this tax will be applied to everyone in the chain from initial manufacture to consumer at the point-of-sale. That is pretty much a VAT.

253 "Why the hell is he talking up this 9-9-9 tax code..."

Every man should have a built-in automatic crap detector operating inside him. It also should have a manual drill and a crank handle in case the machine breaks down. - Ernest Hemingway

Why? Ask yourself this: What is the one thing he purposely leaves out when he talks up his resume about his private business experience? And if you know anything about that private, foreign business where he worked for a 7 year stint that he doesn't mention unless someone else brings it up then you know they have always lobbied and pushed for a VAT/National Sales Tax...

"The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators was probably the prime cause of the revolution." ~Benjamin Franklin

"...If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money first by inflation and then by deflation the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the very continent their fathers conquered.”~Thomas Jefferson 

254 http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

Notice 'Empowerment Zones' WTF is an 'empowerment zone'? Maybe it should more appropriately be called a 'Social-Engineering Zone'.

So, essentially, is 9% income tax becomes progressive for certain areas where people in those areas get various (unstated at this point) deductions.

Yeah, I'm REALLY not liking this plan.

255 then why spend time and political capital farting around with 9-9-9 when they could be better spent to pass the Fair Tax?  Because we pass that now easier than the fair tax which has failed every year since 1998ish and is a radical departure from the IRS and income taxes  - and then when things are hunky doorey (sic) and Republicans (of the mostly tea party variety) control both houses - we then try again at the fair tax from a position of stength.  That is my hope for change - wait, Im not allowed to say that am i?  Can I co-opt it?

256 109:
This is so fucking stupid. You guys are prepared to throw away the best overall candidate we have because you're worried about how he might fare in some debate one year from now as though the general election is going to be decided by debates. Really? The country's going to hell in a handbasket, but we're going to nominate the used car salesman because we're afraid of our own shadows.

Perry cannot defend himself in a relatively easy debate format with easy-to-anticipate questions. For example, the in-state tuition for illegals stuff could be addressed easily with something along the lines of:" they pay sales tax, they pay income tax (or whatever the taxes are in TX), so it's not like it's a free ride."  Instead, he munbles stuff about having a heart. Pitiful.

So how do you think he'll do when interviewed by a hostile MFM?  Do you have any reason to think he will do better with their "Gotcha" questions?

And, on what grounds is he the best overall candidate? He can't defend himself, he can't defend defensible positions, he cannot attack crony capitalism, but he can deliver a great speech? 

I really wanted to favor him on the "make government unobtrusive" sentiment. Pity.

257

we can machining the parts used in Industrial equipments, Marine equipments, Automotive, Shipbuilding, Hydraulic tools, Pumps, Valves, machinery, Medical devices and Home appliances, Petrochemical Equipment, Construction Machinery, Aviation Equipment, Industrial Connector and Communications Equipment.

258 E13HD47   E10KFR4         23518481      2471Y-9014  

259 Chi-Town Jerry: W/ 999, where do you find that businesses pay the sales tax on good used in manufacturing? I don't see that anywhere.

As blindside points out, from Cain's website, it's unclear what Cain's national sales tax is. If it's like the Fair Tax, which he claims to be modeling it on, it's a retail sales tax only, not a VAT. However, the description on Cain's website isn't clear (at least to me).

The current business tax rates are from 15% to 35%. Companies making $335,000 / year or more pay 34 or 35%. So, Cain's 9% business tax represents a significant cut in the tax rate for many businesses, and every business would get at least a small cut. There is also the elimination of FICA, so both individuals and businesses get a cut there. However, a LOT less would be deductible, most notably wages.

As for spending, from his issues page (http://www.hermancain.com/the-issues):

Though it might not be politically popular to modernize and eliminate some of our entitlement programs, responsible leaders should be willing to do it all the same. ...

Nothing should be off the table. Every federal agency, every government program and expenditure must be reviewed and revised with a keen eye and a red pen. Leaders should be willing to shrink budgets by target percentages, and those charged with implementing those changes must be held accountable.

260 Ron Paul's budget plan will balance the budget in three years. It cuts a trillion dollars of government waste. If you think a trillion dollars is a lot, it would only put spending back to the level it was in 2007. For those worried about too many defense cuts, his budget still has defense at more than 500 billion dollars a year. Ron Paul wants to abolish the IRS, The Fed, end unconstitutional wars, no amnesty, secure the borders, pro-Second Amendment, strong military to defend this country not 120 other ones... oh yeah, and you can tell he's honest. That'd be a first, wouldn't it. An honest President. There's a video on youtube called "Ron Paul Makes Little Girl Cry." Check it out.