1 People commit murder over matters of intense personal interest to them. Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them. There are few "general interest murders." Murders are committed over money, and sex/infidelity/sexual obsession/sexual abandonment, and... well 90% those two things. Happens on Law and Order all the time.

2 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

3 Wow, that side bar has a lot of words in it.

4 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

5 >>I don't know what Holder said. It was blah blah, white noise.

Racist!

6 I prefer to comment in the sidebar.

7 What Lungrend pushed was that after F&F ATF agents were pushing a anti gun stance. He made the point that while F&F might not have been an attempt to undermine gun laws but after the fact was used for the purpose.

8 Ace Your reluctance to embrace the conspiracy theory is based on the assumption that Holder et. al. assumed themselves that F&F would ever be exposed, right?

9 Hostile Witness: Issa says the AG is a hostile witness, and is treating him as such, given his lack of candor. YES!!!

10 Wow, that side bar has a lot of words in it.

Shhhh!  Don't give them any ideas.  Last time they put video there it broke the blog.

11

Impeach Holder and extradite him to Mexico. But don't turn him over to the government, turn him over to the cartel that was fighting the cartel that got all of the Fast & Furious weapons.

My suggestion from the prior thread.

12

The CNN headline:

"Holder rips GOP critics of 'Fast and Furious' response"

These fucking idiots in the media WTF is the matter with these terds ?

 

13 Ace, did you ever consider the fact that they are just that stupid and narcissistic? What are lives measured against their self assurance of "rightness?"

14 @8 sorry that Holder et. al. assumed themselves that F&F would NEVER be exposed

15 >>>What Lungrend pushed was that after F&F ATF agents were pushing a anti gun stance. He made the point that while F&F might not have been an attempt to undermine gun laws but after the fact was used for the purpose. Right. There's not really any doubt about that. That is not an allegation; that is what happened, provably.

16 >>> Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them. There are few "general interest murders." Murders are committed over money, and sex/infidelity/sexual obsession/sexual abandonment, and... well 90% those two things.

I don't get this at all.  What do you think tyrannical governments have been doing since the beginning of history? 

I am not trying to get too hyperbolic and compare the Obama administration to Stalin or something like that, but literally from the beginning of history, you have had those in power killing indiscriminately for what they view as important goals.  This has happened on Stalin/Mao/Hitler scales of millions dead, or on much smaller scales of petty tyrants getting away with murder. 

In fact, if I think if someone could count all the murders that have happened since the days of Hammurabi, the majority of them would be "general interest murders" by governments (or those in power).  Especially when you consider the 20th century.

17 Ace, the emails make it clear that the multiple sales demanded by F-Troop (demands made over the objections of the SELLERS in question) were intended BY F-TROOP PERSONNEL to provide justification for additional gun control laws (and thus increase F-Troop's power). Maybe they sincerely thought this could be bloodless. If so, they're not only evil, they're stupid. As in "too stupid to be allowed to breed, or handle anything sharper than a rubber ball."

18 >>> Your reluctance to embrace the conspiracy theory is based on the assumption that Holder et. al. assumed themselves that F&F would ever be exposed, right? Yes. There were 100 witnesses, from angry, abused gun shop owners to ATF agents crying foul and pushing the panic button. What was the plan with all those witnesses?

19 That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice

Then WHAT. WAS. THE. GOAL?

Yeah, I'd love to be wrong about this. I'd rather that the top of our government wasn't populated with the worst kind of evil.

I'd rather Frances Fox-Piven were just a humble grandma. She isn't.

Evil exists. It's all too real. You think it can't get itself into high office?

20 Sheila Dipshit Lee in on the committee.  We outta get some answers now!

21 >>>I don't get this at all. What do you think tyrannical governments have been doing since the beginning of history? A tyrannical government does not permit media investigations nor Congressional ones. A tyrannical government can do whatever it wishes, as it will simply murder those who trouble it. Do you think that's what's going on currently?

22 @15 Well what's the difference? How soon after the "flawed nature" of F&F was discovered before they stopped using it as an excuse to push for tougher gun laws?

23

And furthermore, I think it is easier for those in power to carry out these "murders" because they don't actually pull the trigger.  They don't know the victim.  They often don't even know their names.  They just set of a series of events that leads to their murder.  It is abstract to them.

24 I don't think they set out to murder a bunch of civilians. I think they convinced themselves the crimes were happening anyway, and mostly among a criminal subset of foreigners. This reeks of short term thinking: "Gun control good. Plus, we need proof that American guns fuel the violence on the border, so let's send some American guns down there and wait for the traces to start coming in and push for more gun laws." They never really thought that, oh...border patrol agents, for example, might get caught in the crossfire. This was all about crimes that they knew, just knew, were going to happen anyway. Never let a Reichstag fire go to waste.

25 How can there be ANYTHING not communicated to a Congressman that is related to a Federal matter?

26 "People commit murder over matters of intense personal interest to them. Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them. There are few "general interest murders." Murders are committed over money, and sex/infidelity/sexual obsession/sexual abandonment, and... well 90% those two things."

Maybe in their eyes its an easier bridge to span because they aren't the ones pulling the trigger, and therefore, it's not murder.  After all, life's tough in these lawless Mexican border towns.  The mess isn't in our yard, it's in someone else's yard, and proximity to the mess does allow them to push the need for additional gun control.

Also, doesn't this seem to be a change in tactics?  The push was always handguns.  Gun control on handguns - easy to conceal, no relative value in hunting, only designed to kill people, yada, yada, yada.  Now we're seeing the leap to more control on "long guns".  See it's not just hand guns that kill people, but these "long guns" sure are dangerous too!!  Ban, must ban!!

27 @18 Perhaps Holder did not anticipate angry gun dealers and disturbed agents. Perhaps the only reason we're talking about this is Agent Terry's unanticipated murder. Hundreds of dead Mexicans? Would have never hit the front page, you think?

28 It's not murder to them.  Murder is a deliberate and personal affair, it's something you do on purpose, to a specific person.

It ain't like that here.  To them it's numbers in a spreadsheet.  Those dead people, they aren't real, it's just things that happened.  They're solipsists on a grand scale.

What's that line about the banality of evil, again?

I sympathize in not wanting to believe.  But I know too much about human nature, and the nature of the cabal inhabiting the Executive, to honestly be able to disregard the evidence we're confronted with.  This isn't an anomaly.  This is the point of the exercise, to impose your will regardless of the consequences of others, out of a firm belief that your world view is right.

And that's what makes it so hard to fight--you don't want to believe what it is, sometimes until it's too late.

29 People just offer up the answer "They're arrogant, and they have the media to cover for them," and further offer the difficult-to-rebut point "...as the media is covering for them right now," and yet I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes in order to advance some political issue at the margins.

Obama has trashed the Constitution since the day he got in office. Czars, pay offs to allies, power grabs. Why on earth would he be afraid that he'd be impeached over F&F when he wasn't over Libya?

30 >>>>>>I don't get this at all. What do you think tyrannical governments have been doing since the beginning of history?
>>>A tyrannical government does not permit media investigations nor Congressional ones.
A tyrannical government can do whatever it wishes, as it will simply murder those who trouble it.
Do you think that's what's going on currently?


No, as I said in the post, I am not trying to compare Obama to the Stalin regime.

I am just saying that you claim that "general interest murders" don't happen doesn't make sense.  More than 100 million died for "general interest" at the hands of government in the 20th century alone. 

31 How is this pop-culturally relevant?

32

That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice.

People just offer up the answer "They're arrogant, and they have the media to cover for them," and further offer the difficult-to-rebut point "...as the media is covering for them right now," and yet I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes in order to advance some political issue at the margins.

The Left is tyrannical at heart, and power-hungry.

I think, sir, that this is a matter of you being afraid to believe that this was the original plan, because it marks a frightening turning point in national history that cannot be explained away, nor rationalized, and has many and varied possible conclusions, all of them terrible.

I fully understand that fearfulness, and indeed, I share it.  However, it is there, regardless of how badly we wish for it not to be.

33
That would be the case, Ace, if the entire tyrannical govt was on the same page.

What we have here is probably a few wannabe social engineers in the DoJ who had enough power and clout to design and implement this wacky scheme.

Look at what happened at Walter Reed/Bethesda recently with the Bible banning. Probably just one Lefty working in the right department to make a up a new rule that has a big affect.

34 "Think about the implications of what you're saying, that a department would plan a flawed program to..."

That's the part I can't buy. "

 

Why?  It's Goebbels - > Alinsky 101.  Tell a lie sooooo f'ing big...  Notice their ONLY defense is "Ignore all the facts on the ground, including the emails that spell it out for you.  Who could possibly believe us capable of doing such a thing?"  That's it.  That's all he's got. 

Yes...who indeed...

35 Also, doesn't this seem to be a change in tactics?  The push was always handguns.  Gun control on handguns - easy to conceal, no relative value in hunting, only designed to kill people, yada, yada, yada.  Now we're seeing the leap to more control on "long guns".  See it's not just hand guns that kill people, but these "long guns" sure are dangerous too!!  Ban, must ban!!

No. See Crime Bill 1994. Long guns are the only types expressly banned by federal law for a time.

36 not looking good for Holder....... says yes, i think more mexicans will be killed with these guns.

37 I swear I italicized Ace's quote in my post. ;_; The forum software hates me.

38 Wait a second ...  wait a second... did that holder guy have a mustache before break?  What if this is bizzaro Holder swapped from another dimension or replaced by a clone?

That is what an irrational conspiracy theory looks and sounds like....  I know because I once heard a homeless man say it about Al Gore.. he did have pictures though.....

39 How can there be ANYTHING not communicated to a Congressman that is related to a Federal matter?
Posted by: dogfish at December 08, 2011 12:43 PM

The case records were sealed a few weeks ago.  The guy's name is still available on the FBI website.

40

The aide behind Issa....I'd hit that harder than Sheila Jackson Lee hits the Taco Bell drive thru.

41 Let me see if I understand correctly; is Ace saying Gun Control is a "political issue at the margins"?

42 I don't think that ATF people or anyone in the administration said, hey, let's get some people killed and then we can use that as fodder for a campaign against guns. I don't think they are that smart.

43 And that's what makes it so hard to fight--you don't want to believe what it is, sometimes until it's too late.

Oh, this is brilliant, Dark Lord. Sums it up perfectly.

44
I have no doubt we have plenty of rogue subversives, ideological zealots, and saboteurs in the federal government to wreak havoc in subtle ways on a daily basis.

45
In fact, if I think if someone could count all the murders that have happened since the days of Hammurabi, the majority of them would be "general interest murders" by governments (or those in power).  Especially when you consider the 20th century.

Posted by: dan-O at December 08, 2011 12:40 PM (sWycd)

Rummel's thesis.

46 Yeah, the "morons thought up something that would feed their long-term agenda without realizing just how murdery it would get" theory is certainly looking to be the correct one...

47 You'll never guess what Mitt chose as his 2012 campaign song.  Oh yeah, his Ssuper PAC just made a $3.1 million Iowa ad buy.  Check it out for yourself.

This race just got a heck of a lot more interesting!

48 That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice.

Okay then,,,what were they trying to do?

49 ace, obviously I haven't read every word you've written on this subject, so if I've missed it could you please repeat: What explanation would you find plausible for a law enforcement agency to force gun dealers to provide weapons to the cartels and then refuse to follow the trail at all? This wasn't a sting operation. So, to your mind, what could it have been?

50

That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice.

Bzzt.

Look:

Do you doubt the leftists in government believe that 90% of the guns in Mexico come from the US?

Hillary and Obama said it, it was bullshit, they made have made it up on the spot, but they believed it, believe me.

Do you doubt the anti-american set thinks our foreign policy is the direct cause of 9-11? They do. They believe it, whether it's true or not.

Thus believing that US guns are flying south at record numbers and lacking any evidence to show this truth, they must design a way to test it.

It's truthy. Don't you watch people? That's how this shit works.

Hypothesis: The US needs new gun regulations because US guns are flying south and murdering Mexicans.

How can we show people this is the truth? The wingnuts don't believe us! We need a papertrail! (Again, you ought believe they believe this was the truth, and want to prove it whether it's true or not - that's their daily MO, that's how they drink orange juice and take a dump).

Well, let's sell a bunch of guns to a bunch of Mexican Cartel straw-buyers and see if they go to Mexico or not!

90% of all the guns in Mexico came from the US, a few hundred more is a drop in the ocean, a few drops we can trace to help us stop the larger tidal waves.

Then when 95% of all the guns we sold to the Cartel go the Mexico, we will have the evidence we need to finally prove what we know is already happening: Guns are going to Mexico, see! We told you, you didn't believe us, here look and see! We need new regulations!

I am quite sure none of the people involved yet feel responsible for actually killing anyone (whether they are or not).

51 Issa is The MAN. Go, Issa, Go!

52 Who's going to get killed?  This is just a gun control thing, it's all statistics.  No more or less people are going to get killed because the cartels got a gun from a US gun store versus robbed it from the Mexican military who got it from a US gun company versus robbed it from the Mexican military that also buys from the Russians and Chinese versus just smuggling it in from Russia, China, South America, and so forth.

Where the gun came from doesn't matter at all to whoever got killed. This is just about making a case for gun control in the United States.

Gun Control is one of the big political issues.  It's at the heart of liberty and it exists as an important litmus test.

(If they acted legally they could casually produce their paperwork.  Who authorized the sale pursuant to the Foreign Arms act allowance for undercover work, for example.  But they can't.)

53
Just a few bad actors is all it takes, not a whole department.

54 Steve Cohen (D-TN) is an utter dick.  Saying that the murders would have occurred anyway whether or not a F&F gun had been used.  On behalf of the surviving family of the dead agents, Fuck you dude.

55 Oh, this is brilliant, Dark Lord. Sums it up perfectly

And when the light bulb does come on. Like it did for J in "Men In Black" I can only offer up Zed's statement: "yeah sucks, huh?".

56 Mitt should have gone with American Badass.

57 Hey Tennessee, you need to dump this prick.

58 >>>What explanation would you find plausible for a law enforcement agency to force gun dealers to provide weapons to the cartels and then refuse to follow the trail at all? This wasn't a sting operation. So, to your mind, what could it have been? I don't know. There are a couple of possibilities: 1. "Moderate Iranians." The administration arms up a rival of the Zapas (if I have that name right), attempting to curry favor with one cartel. 2. This is sick, but statistical profiling: Just send out these guns, wait for them to show up in reports, and somehow use that information to statistically figure out the chain of sales. In essence, murders are used to "light up" the distribution chain, because they provide data points. I have no idea if that's actually possible or if that's any less psychopathic than the Reichstag Fire theory.

59 Have been in meetings all morning and have missed much of this. Has Ted Poe questioned Holder yet?

60 Anyway, Sheila Jackson Lee is currently attempting to stop Issa's questions by talking over him like the obese bull rhinocerous she is.

Don't you lump her in with us!!!1!!

61 My take is this was meant to make it look as though arms dealers in the US were selling guns illegally because gun laws were too lax. You know we need stricter gun laws.Unfortunately They didn't expect that it would be found out.  or go so wrong.

62

Lets see... how does that go...

Never let a Crises go to waste?

so, if you don't HAVE a crises, create one...

They got away with HUGE campaign donation fraud... and election Fraud... and have usurped Congress's authority to go to War... they are in contempt of Court over Drilling...

And you think they are worried about consequences?

There is, currently NO check on Federal Power... NONE... the courts won't step in, and Congress will not either....

You have more faith in their Integrity, than I do Ace...

63 >>>90% of all the guns in Mexico came from the US, a few hundred more is a drop in the ocean, a few drops we can trace to help us stop the larger tidal waves. If that's the case then why did we have to bully people into sending guns to Mexico? This makes no sense. On one hand you claim they could have envisioned getting away with this, because they are injecting so few new guns into the stream, they figured they'd never be noticed. Okay. If that's the case, why couldn't they just do the same thing (make the case for gun laws) with the already-existing stream of guns? after all, fast and furious added so few of them.

64 @50, exactly! The same MO they take with global warming.

They know what the truth is already. They just have to prove it.

65 I know it's O/T, but not really 'cause he's talking about F & F too in the scheme of things....but I have seriously never heard Rush so off the rails with anger at anyone like he is with Obama.  He is super pissed at what is happening, the lies Obama is telling.  He literally called him a Communist a few minutes ago.  He's fit to be tied like I've never heard. 

66

Yeah, the "morons thought up something that would feed their long-term agenda without realizing just how murdery it would get" theory is certainly looking to be the correct one...

I'm starting to go with the whole the US was specifically arming one of the cartels at the expense of the others at the request of the Mexican government conspiracy theory because a. it gives credit for someone having active brain cells and b. it's less frightening than what it sure looks like actually happened.

67 BREAKING -- Virginia Tech warns everyone to seek shelter; transit services suspended; reports of shots being fired

68 54 Steve Cohen (D-TN) is an utter dick.  Saying that the murders would have occurred anyway whether or not a F&F gun had been used.  On behalf of the surviving family of the dead agents, Fuck you dude.

Posted by: dogfish at December 08, 2011 12:51 PM (N2yhW)

Ergo, it's not murder or even accessory to murder... woulda happened anyway.  Isn't that the justifiable defense against murder of any kind?  Look, they person's gonna die eventually, I just sped the process up a little...

69
How long until Issa and the Republicans are accused of doing this only because Holder and Obama are black?

70 The whole thing is like some H. P. Lovecraft story--the truth will drive you mad, but without it, you don't stand a chance of even surviving, let alone triumphing.

I have to wonder what he would have made of the 21^st century to date.  I don't suspect any of it would be surprising to him, sadly.

71 I don't know Countrysquire; someone else will have to answer.

72

"I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes in order to advance some political issue at the margins."

We have all been thinking about this wrong.  Holder and his fellow travelers have had in their heads the last 40 years the following: 

"Those gun nuts 'allow' 25,000 people to be murdered every year with guns in the US in order to protect their so-called 'right' to keep a weapon."

300 Mexican dead v. 25,000 American dead, if their scheme succeeds and they end up enacting very stringent gun laws (that won't save those 25,000 American, of course, but liberal logic says that those laws will save American)? 

That math is easy for someone like Holder, and of course it is possible for them to put into place what they so obviously, intentionally, put into place.

73 Let me ask a question: How many people who are committed to the Reichstag Fire scenario also believe that Waco was a deliberate murder/immolation (and also probably about stripping gun rights away from citizens)?

74
When will they pull the Race card?

I'll guess around 3p-ish.

75 I have no idea if that's actually possible or if that's any less psychopathic than the Reichstag Fire theory.

Posted by: ace at December 08, 2011 12:53 PM (nj1bB)

Another point to consider...you realize a significant portion of liberals believe Bush was behind 9/11 (either planning or allowing it to happen), right? 

If you believe George Bush could get away with that, well, who is going to care about some Mexicans murdered in drug cartel violence?

76

I think people who are looking for a single, unified explanation for this operation are barking up the wrong tree. 

The answer to "why" probably lies in shades of grey.  Even though Holder is at the top, the entity running this is a bureaucracy.  This means there are many individuals who all have their own motives. 

And even when you think about each individual's reasons, there could be many different motivating factors, some of which the individual might not even consciously recognize.

I am sure that trying to make guns look bad was part of the motivation behind this operation.  But in an unsaid, sinister way.  I am sure there were also other reasons that would certainly be considered more legitimate. 

77 @61 more or less been my conclusion as well.  They were never supposed to have been found out.  All the blame and focus was supposed to have been on the gun dealers.

78

I'm starting to go with the whole the US was specifically arming one of the cartels at the expense of the others at the request of the Mexican government conspiracy theory because a. it gives credit for someone having active brain cells and b. it's less frightening than what it sure looks like actually happened.

Yea, let's go with that!

79 on the conspiracy theory im not real sure i can buy into it. but i do know that the administration was letting guns go into mexico w/ no way of tracing who has them and where they went. so it wasnt a sting to arrest people. and holder et al havent given any of the goals of this program that it could actually meet. so more and more im drifting to the conspiracy. its the old holmes method of deduction

80 2. This is sick, but statistical profiling: Just send out these guns, wait for them to show up in reports, and somehow use that information to statistically figure out the chain of sales. In essence, murders are used to "light up" the distribution chain, because they provide data points. I vote for this, because it smacks of a detached, abstract bureaucratic mentality, the hallmark of our administrative tyrants in government. It's not like the murders would happen in front of them, or even show up as anything other than figures on a page.

81 I love Louis Gohmert.

82 My version of the theory: Rahm wanted a crisis, a surge in guns - trumped up by the media would provide that crisis. The DoS/HRC crap with Mexico re: a flood of US guns driving violence that was debunked showed the need for a flood of guns. The message about a flood of US guns causing mayhem in Mexico was out there BEFORE they started pushing hardware. F&F was trying to backfill the crisis story so they could get the long gun report in place and present that as a win to the left.

83 2. This is sick, but statistical profiling: Just send out these guns, wait for them to show up in reports, and somehow use that information to statistically figure out the chain of sales. In essence, murders are used to "light up" the distribution chain, because they provide data points

Ace, this is exactly what I believe it was (and agree it was sick). Where we disagree is on the matter of intent.

84 How many people who are committed to the Reichstag Fire scenario also believe that Waco was a deliberate murder/immolation (and also probably about stripping gun rights away from citizens)?

Posted by: ace at December 08, 2011 12:56 PM (nj1bB)

I think Waco was a farked up PR stunt that certain members of the government were criminally negligent in.

85 I don't know enough about Waco to be firm but I know this

-be skeptical of government
-be skeptical of conspiracy theorists

86 I'm starting to go with the whole the US was specifically arming one of the cartels at the expense of the others at the request of the Mexican government conspiracy theory because a. it gives credit for someone having active brain cells and b. it's less frightening than what it sure looks like actually happened.

Actually, this is one we know is not the case. Why? Holder could have privately briefed key congressman on it and the issue would have disappeared.

87

Steve Cohen (D-TN) is an utter dick. Saying that the murders would have occurred anyway whether or not a F&F gun had been used.

Exactly.

They operated from the believe (true or false) that guns by the thousands were flying south and murdering people and this needs to stop.

The rest makes sense when you start from where they start and assume what they assume.

If you do not do that - nothing will make sense. If you want to explain their actions you must do so from their perspective, or don't expect it to make sense.

That's how they can do this and send all these guns south - they're not evil cackling supervillians. It's that from their perspective, if not the F&F gun, some other fungible gun that wasn't tracked. Since guns are flying south anyway, if the Mexican cartels are getting all their guns up here, they're getting the guns. If they're getting the guns they're getting the guns. All we did was try to track a couple that they were getting, to try to stop the rest.

That's the mentality.

It was to use to support anti-gun regulation, but that's surely not how they rationalized it to themselves because this isn't an Austin Powers movie. Evil is banal. They would have never made the connection conciously and endorsed it. They would have found it unconcionable.

But if Mexican Cartels are shipping guns south by the bushel, you're operating on that belief, you can rationalize trying to observe how they move without stopping them, since it's just a drop in the bucket, and the name of the game is stopping the tide. To save lives.

88

Ace - The pardigm to compare this to is not murder, which as you point out, is violence to perpatrate an individual crime. The paradigm to compare this to is terrorism, which is violence to cause political action.

The IRA member that sets of a bomb in a shop doesn't have anything against the shop owner, he doesn't even know who will be harmed, he just hopes that as a result of his act some other act will occur.

The people who did this may not have thought it through to the point that they considered that indentifiable people would be harmed by identifiable weapons. They were looking to show that weapons originating in the private market here in the US were being used by the cartels. And at the time they could not show that. They tried to fix that shortcoming in their argument.

89

Nothing will come of this. It's not a scandal if it's not reported in the nightly news. And it won't be.

But Gingrich's marital history, or the particulars of the Book of Mormon- now THAT'S news.

90

because a. it gives credit for someone having active brain cells and b. it's less frightening than what it sure looks like actually happened.

IMO, those are 2 very good arguments for why that's obviously wrong.

91 My take is this was meant to make it look as though arms dealers in the US were selling guns illegally because gun laws were too lax. You know we need stricter gun laws.Unfortunately They didn't expect that it would be found out.  And THIS was the plan to accomplish that goal? It's not designed as a secret plan. It involves too many civilians whose personal interests involve NOT selling weapons to illegal straw purchasers, and who vociferously objected to being told to do so by the ATF. It also involved too many field agents who actually respect their oath and won't sit quietly by while their superiors tell them to let guns go across the border untracked. In short, there's a shit-ton of people loudly refusing to be left holding the bag. By design. That's what I don't buy about this being a top-down engineered conspiracy to attack 2A.

92 I'm in the same church, probably the same pew, with 18-1. Unless you start the "Waco" scenario with the ATF sales of guns to the Branch Davidians *for the purpose* of getting them because of their religious beliefs. I think the fire was the result of bad planning/management. Janet Reno should have been fired over that.

93 Well, way way OT but Rush notes that the National Enquirer has dug up a Newt staffer who claims to have had sex with him decades ago. So, look for Gloria Allred to show up in a few days and whore for the cameras. http://bit.ly/rGaW6i

94 How about people murder for POWER?  Sounds good to me.  These people have no morals and it's all about the ends justifying the means.

95 62
There is, currently NO check on Federal Power... NONE... the courts won't step in, and Congress will not either....
Posted by: Romeo13 at December 08, 2011 12:54 PM (NtXW4)

Bing. Effin'. Go.

96 Imagine how many articles the New York Times would have written on Fast and Furious if it had been a CIA program.

97 I think Waco was a farked up PR stunt that certain members of the government were criminally negligent in

Yup.

98

Even still, Holder isn't under as much pressure as I am.

I have to do a webinar for 9k+ customers tomorrow.

He only has to lie to Congress.

99

I have no idea if that's actually possible or if that's any less psychopathic than the Reichstag Fire theory.

The whole thing is psychopathic.  Seriously, no matter what the point behind it was the obvious consequence was people being killed.  You know, I'm really really not okay with that.  Oh they're just dead Mexicans is not okay.

Let me ask a question:

How many people who are committed to the Reichstag Fire scenario also believe that Waco was a deliberate murder/immolation (and also probably about stripping gun rights away from citizens)?

Is that a serious question?  And, if so, what does a. have to do with b.?   Even the NY Times occasionally gets things right.  It's possible for FaF to have nefarious motives without of necessity having to believe that Waco did. 

100 Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them.

I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

101 In short, there's a shit-ton of people loudly refusing to be left holding the bag. By design. That's what I don't buy about this being a top-down engineered conspiracy to attack 2A.

  Maybe, but we'll probably never know...

102 "How long until Issa and the Republicans are accused of doing this only because Holder and Obama are black?" Combined they are only a third black - tops!

103

People commit murder over matters of intense personal interest to them. Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them. There are few "public interest murders." Murders are committed over money, and sex/infidelity/sexual obsession/sexual abandonment, and... well 90% those two things

That's where I think the fatal flaw lies for those in opposition to the "conspiracy" theory.  Murder implies an upfront, personal confrontation, but that was never the goal nor the outcome of F&F.  All the death and killing was committed by third parties well removed from the DOJ brass.  But we aren't talking about murder here; we're talking about strategy.

Hitler didn't put a bullet in every victim of the Holocaust, but he killed millions of people nonetheless.  Stalin didn't personally murder millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Slovaks, etc, but he was responsible for their deaths.  Mao didn't visit every citizen of China during the Great Leap Forward and take the food from every individual's plate one by one, but he starved them to death regardless.  I am not - repeat, NOT - equating the level of carnage associated with any of those figures to the relatively low body count associated with F&F, but I am equating the mindset.  It is very, very easy for people of a certain mindset to doom people to death in pursuit of what they consider a higher purpose.  We should never forget that. 

I'm sure Holder & Co., were they to answer truthfully, would say that "only" 300 or so deaths is a small price to pay in their "quest" to "rid the world of dangerous weapons."

104 That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice.

Um, that happens in the non-conspiracy theory explanation of Fast and Furious, too. So, what's the difference?

105 People commit murder over matters of intense personal interest to them. Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them. There are few "public interest murders."

Omelet. Eggs. Some assembly required.

106 Both Waco and Ruby Ridge were over-zealous enforcement actions -- both could have been handled with surveillance and an off-site arrest. After the government went in heavy, things spiraled out of control.

107 What if it's not a conspiracy so much as people letting other people employ really bad ideas?

Like, simply, some moron wants to get as many guns traced back to US gun dealers, and there's not enough concern to stop this idea?

That had a raw ideological ambition, but didn't intend it to get out of hand like this because they simply didn't think about it.

I have to say, ANY explanation, no matter how generous you are about your assumptions of the DOJ's morality, winds up being implausible in some way.  The fact is that this really shouldn't have happened.  Many people should have been able to shut it down.  It's just too wild.  And because it happened, the conspiracy theory is actually a more comforting prospect than this kind of thing continuing in various other forms, yet undiscovered.

You'd like to think these guys are just evil, got caught, and now are not doing it anymore.  Far worse if this is completely out of control.

108 If Holder is testifying in good faith, and does not fear consequences of malfeasance, why is he witholding information, lying, and whitewashing his actions, along with pointing fingers in vague directions. And why are his leftard imbecile enablers throwing red herring after red herring out on the deck?

109 Heh-heh...We're not EVIL, we're just INCOMPETENT!

110 >>>Is that a serious question? And, if so, what does a. have to do with b.? Yes it is a serious question. It has to do with the fact that some people have successfully called 9 of the last 0 deadly conspiracies against the 2nd Amendment.

111 Also, I think the position of Attorney General should be abolished. Who ever it is always ends up as the President's consigliere. Or maybe the AG could be appointed by Congress.

112 Waco...again, it's where the evidence goes.  I don't believe the fire was set on purpose, by either party--there's sufficient evidence it was accidental, and aggravated by circumstances and mishandling.  I believe the main 'conspiracies' involved were (a) potentially questionable pretext, and (b) covering up the Feds' role in how the disaster got out of hand.  It's a cross section of malevolence and incompetence, the hallmark of the American Left.

113

That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice.

I can easily believe it. These people are both evil and jaw-droppingly stupid and incompetent.

114

2. This is sick, but statistical profiling: Just send out these guns, wait for them to show up in reports, and somehow use that information to statistically figure out the chain of sales. In essence, murders are used to "light up" the distribution chain, because they provide data points.

That is exactly what they were doing.

Light up the distribution chain, and then shut it down with regulation.

Um... exactly.

It is genuine incompitence that they light it up by enabling it, and then ban it regardless of whether it ever happened without their help. Again, did not notice this is how it always works? That's called Tuesday.

They can justify doing it because they know, like they know about anything else they know - ie. Global Warming - that it is already happening anyway with absolute certainty.

115

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 08, 2011 01:00 PM (l9zgN)

As to the Agents?  During the aftermath of Katrina, the National Guard, and US Army units, were confiscating guns from law abiding citizens.. in DIRECT violation of the Supreme Law of the Land, the Consitution.

They were, sadly, following orders.

It is very very hard to buck the Chain of Command... I know, been there, done that, and ruined my carreer.

116 It's simply Chicago style politics writ large.

117

That's how they can do this and send all these guns south - they're not evil cackling supervillians. It's that from their perspective, if not the F&F gun, some other fungible gun that wasn't tracked. Since guns are flying south anyway, if the Mexican cartels are getting all their guns up here, they're getting the guns. If they're getting the guns they're getting the guns. All we did was try to track a couple that they were getting, to try to stop the rest.

But they didn't try to track them.  This is the brick wall that my thought process slams into.  Sell guns and track them has obvious drawbacks but there are also benefits and I can see an argument to be made for doing that.  Wasn't that the attempt in, crap, I forget the name, the program under Bush that Holder had to admit was nothing like FaF?  But in this case there was no attempt to track the guns.  That's just nutty mcnutbar.  Since it makes no logical sense, well, all of us are attempting to make sense of it.

The confluence of idiocy is probably the true explanation which is actually worse than cackling supervillian evilness. 

 

118 See, I compare this F&F deal to the same audaciousness the administration showed with GM.  Before Obama, a contract meant something.  Who could imagine a president taking over an American company, screwing the stockholders, screwing the dealers, and then, giving the company to the unions?  But Obama did it.  And F&F shows the same unmitigated gall.  That is what makes it so hard for Ace to accept.  The "reality" is so far from what reality should be.  This whole administration is Bizarro world.

119 115, the whistle blowers in this case are suffering quite a bit.

120

We mustn't forget the built-in 'Blame Bush' aspect of this. ....Maybe they thought that this would provide them enought cover, if it all came to light, which it has.

It's the timeline of this that suggests they did this to create a crisis to exploit.

They first pointed to a crisis.....before it existed. .....Obama and Hillary referred to the "flow of guns into Mexico" back in spring of 2009. ....But then, when the numbers they were using were proven to be bogus....it now looks like that was when the order went out to squeeze the toothpaste tube, and create those numbers of 'thousands of guns flowing into Mexico'.

121

You know, they were not enabling the Cartel to kill people. The Cartel was already killing people with US guns. They were just lighting up the distribution chain.

So they could use regulation to ban it...

Um...

Wait, isn't that what you reject? How the hell is it any different?

No, I don't buy - not at all, not for second - that they were cackling and dismissing the 'broken eggs'. It does not happen like that. Ever, really. That's not how human psychology works in reality, just in movies for the most part.

122 Ace, they didn't set out to commit murder. They conveniently adopted the NRA slogan for OF&F: Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

123 Holder: "I might not have read the attachments".

Oh my!

124 123 Holder: "I might not have read the attachments".

Oh my!

Posted by: Scott J at December 08, 2011 01:10 PM (KC2BE)

*facepalm* 

125 wheatie - exactly, they need to get HRC in front of Issa as well. Did getting burned on the first US gun causing mayhem in Mexico effort lead to F&F?

126 102 "How long until Issa and the Republicans are accused of doing this only because Holder and Obama are black?"

Combined they are only a third black - tops!

Posted by: mike at December 08, 2011 01:03 PM (O1zPC)

Against with this silliness.  Look I'm about 75% of African descent and most (80%)  black Americans are not 100% of African descent.  Now unless we're going to start asking people to give a DNA report to refer to themselves as black or do away with racial classifications all together--something which would be GREAT--deal with the fact that most black Americans are not phenotypically identical to Idi Amin.  No animosity.

127 Ok, there are several that do not see this as an attack on the 2ndA.  Fine; that is not an unreasonable stance to take, but then Ann Althouse's question is still in play... Why has there been no rational and legitimate reason offered?

128 Few "Public Interest" murders, except that's not true. There have been enormous numbers of murders conducted in pursuit of a political interest. see Exhibit A: Soviet Union.

In any case, I think focusing on that aspect of it is a mistake. The GOAL was not to see anyone killed. That was a result, seemingly inevitable to us, because we are not brain-dead bureaucrats, but apparently not conceived of, or comprehended as a potential result with real-world impact by those involved. By which I mean, it might have been understood, "that the potential ramifications of the use of firearms involved in the Operation by suspects may result in negative consequences" (or however bureaucrats talk), but not really comprehended that, "someone is dead who was once alive, because we had the world's worst plan to advance a political agenda ever conceived."

129 "yet I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes in order to advance some political issue at the margins." Ace, they are simply saying it was all a big mistake. They'll keep repeating that mantra. Unless we find and actual smoking gun document saying 'we'll use this to push for more authority' or some witness who comes forward and says this was the plan all along this part will be basically unprovable. Ask yourself this: Why would they embark on this particularly method and execution in an attempt to fulfill the roles and responsibilities of ATF? Incompetence doesn't work because the flaws in this 'plan' are so obvious from the start. None of the people involved in this are idiots or are new to Law Enforcement. Indeed - they already had agents telling them this couldn't work. Using Operation Wide Receiver as a template for OF&F, there is no possible way that anyone could believe OF&F could work - with operation WR, plans were in place to actually track the weapons across the border and have the Mexican Federales interdict them. That failed because criminals are sometimes resourceful. OF&F NEVER had any plan to track the guns, nor were the Mexican Federales involved at any point. How can you interdict guns once they pass out of your jurisdiction and you haven't told the people in who's jurisdiction they will land that they are coming? Does it seem likely that these people were SO incompetent that they would come up with and execute this plan that is an OBVIOUS failure, or does it seem likely that there WAS motive behind this failed plan (especially given the administrations stance on the 2A), with further plans to cover it up and then claim incompetence, knowing that people (like yourself) could never buy that the government would do something like this ON PURPOSE.

130 Holder: "I might not have read the attachments".

Oh my!

  Good Lord! If he is that friggin incompetent he needs to be removed for gross negligence.

131 Aaand they got him to admit he hasn't given all the requested info to Issa.

132 37 I swear I italicized Ace's quote in my post. ;_; The forum software hates me.
Posted by: KinleyArdal at December 08, 2011 12:47 PM (cJ/ft)

Don't leave selected sections of text on your screen, whether directly visible to you or somewhere up thread. It appears that both the selected portions of the post from which you obtain the quote must be deselected there, and also possibly in the posting box itself, in order to avoid confusing pixy. At least that is my experience.

133 By which I mean, it might have been understood, "that the potential ramifications of the use of firearms involved in the Operation by suspects may result in negative consequences" (or however bureaucrats talk), but not really comprehended that, "someone is dead who was once alive, because we had the world's worst plan to advance a political agenda ever conceived."

Posted by: DKS at December 08, 2011 01:13 PM (cuVOw)

PERFECT.  That's exactly what I've been trying to articulate but couldn't!

134

But they didn't try to track them. This is the brick wall that my thought process slams into. Sell guns and track them has obvious drawbacks but there are also benefits and I can see an argument to be made for doing that.

Like I've been saying.

I really do not understand what the barrier to understanding here is. It is not uber-complicated.

A couple of guns, a minivan full of them - piss in the bucket.

When we operate in their leftist reality, we must acknowledge (because they do!) we live and operate in a reality where the cartel is buying thousands of guns from the US already. What does it matter if you interdict 35 when the dude orders 400 extra and expects to lose 10% to LEO as a 'cost of business'?

They want to stop ALL these (real or fictional) guns moving south.

How do lefties do ANYTHING they do, EVER? With government regulation.

How do you stop ALL these guns going south? Light up the distribution chain, apply regulation.

135

Hey Eric, thanks for all the dead Mexicans! You're my kind of of guy!

Posted by: Huitzilopochtli - Aztec God of the Sun

136 They didn't set out to KILL anyone. They thought they would trace a number of guns being bought in the US as then showing up in Mexico.

Like liberals everywhere they didn't consider the unintended consequences that the downturn in the economy and the pervasiveness of the gangs in Mexico would distribute those weapons so fast and that they would be used so quickly and used against the US Border Patrol.

The purpose was to PROVE that the majority of weapons seized in Mexico from criminals come from the US through straw purchasers. Something they couldn't prove using the facts till then.

They then didn't even attempt (it appears) to keep track of the weapons as they were bought and sold south of the border because they couldn't enlist the aid of the Federales because they would NOT agree to a project that would increase the weaponry in the hands of the gangs and might compromise it since they are rife with informers for the gangs. That's why Mexico wasn't informed about what was going on and why Justice couldn't track the weapons very well after they crossed the border.

The ATF again proves that they are incompetent cowboys whose main motivation is not to provide oversight over weapons dealers but to put them out of business. They also seem to want to disenfranchise as many citizens as they can from their 2nd amendment rights.

They have a long list of past bad moves and incompetency.

They didn't NEVER THINK.

137 The CIA has armed various factions in other countries many times, in order to further the national interests of the US, right? They don't view it as murder, they view it as war. And war it is.  Why is it so hard to think that the Obamanistas consider their program a war?

This administration is either seeking to (1) increase gun control in the US or (b) arm factions in Mexico (to foment revolution, in their jaundiced view of our national interest, in Bama's case, installing a socialist govt south of the US).

I don't see any other explanations.

138 Obviously there are attachments he wants plausible deniability on.

139

Yes it is a serious question.

It has to do with the fact that some people have successfully called 9 of the last 0 deadly conspiracies against the 2nd Amendment.


That's a fair point.  But I guess I'm getting the sense that you are taking the position that since someone who assumes Waco was a conspiracy is wrong about Waco then that person must also per se be wrong about F&F.  All I'm saying is that does not logically follow.  It does provide a better background for evaluating the person's opinions on F&F, I'm not saying otherwise.  I could also be completely wrong about why you're asking as well, there is that too. 

For the record, I'm in the camp that Waco was a horrible tragedy caused by incompetence, overreach and horribly inept evaluations of the potential consequences. 

140 132 Posted by: No Whining at December 08, 2011 01:13 PM (HmCnI)

Deselect simply by clicking outside the bounds of the response composition box and anywhere in the white space inside the box.

141 Ace, they didn't set out to commit murder. They conveniently adopted the NRA slogan for OF&F: Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Posted by: Andy at December 08, 2011 01:10 PM (du2Iq)

This isn't just about murder.  The government was actively supplying weapons to known enemies of the US.  ...or is the war on drugs off now?

142 Ted Poe (R) is up.  This should be good.

143 The stated purpose of the operation was to dismantle a Phoenix based gun distribution network. Unlike what someone posted above, it was a sting operation - a long running sting operation. The baffling part was the decision not to track the guns.

My guess is that ATF decided that letting the guns disappear into the hands of cartels already awash in guns was a good trade in exchange for rolling up the entire network of straw buyers. If you bust them one at a time, you'll never get them all, but patience may allow you to put all the pieces together. Then it all blew up. This type of buffoonery is the result of hubris and is not uncommon when people are seen by those in authority as set pieces. Military history is rife with examples of bold miscalculation and needless sacrifice.

I don't think jumping on the violence to further a gun control agenda was the purpose of F&F. I think it was the natural consequence of these craven assholes in power. They continually remind us of their intention to never let a crisis go to waste. Shutting down drilling in the gulf wasn't part of a conspiracy, just a side benefit of a disaster. Allowing indefinite detention of US citizens without trial wasn't part of a government hatched 9/11 conspiracy, just a side benefit. I think this is more of the same.

144 Concerning conspiracies, if there was no suspicion, there would be no investigation, so the theories are most useful in the end. They drive the investigation, they are driving THIS investigation.

145 141 This isn't just about murder.  The government was actively supplying weapons to known enemies of the US.  ...or is the war on drugs off now?
Posted by: dogfish at December 08, 2011 01:16 PM (N2yhW)

Exactly. Aiding and abetting an enemy.

146 Poe: "who made the decision" to green light this.

Holder: "We don't know yet"

147 Holder: "I might not have read the attachments".

Hey, give Holder credit, he finally said something I believe. 

148 Poe: "who made the decision" to green light this.

Holder: "We don't know yet"

  What?

149

The GOAL was not to see anyone killed. That was a result, seemingly inevitable to us, because we are not brain-dead bureaucrats, but apparently not conceived of, or comprehended as a potential result with real-world impact by those involved. By which I mean, it might have been understood, "that the potential ramifications of the use of firearms involved in the Operation by suspects may result in negative consequences" (or however bureaucrats talk), but not really comprehended that, "someone is dead who was once alive, because we had the world's worst plan to advance a political agenda ever conceived."

Ding ding ding.

150 Poe: "Did the Mexican government agree to Fast and Furious"

Holder: stutter-stutter

151 "We don't know who authorized F&F"

Translation: "We haven't just yet managed to deep six the authorizer(s) to keep you from interrogating them".

152 Can you even get enough people to agree that stricter gun legislation is possible? Look at the trajectory of gun legislation over the last 20 years: We've gone from 8 "shall-issue" CCW states to 37. You can now carry concealed in national parks. Retired LEOs can carry concealed in ANY jurisdiction, local laws be damned. Handgun bans overturned in D.C. and Chicago. Forget what any of these people WANT to happen with gun control. How many of them are you saying actually think they can get gun control passed? I don't think any of them are that out of touch. Look at Clinton's Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban. Brady ruled mostly unconstitutional and five-day waiting period removed. AWB sunset and no one will dare touch it. The Columbine Massacre couldn't produce the legislation that you're assuming is the point of all this and those were children.

153 146 Poe: "who made the decision" to green light this.

Holder: "We don't know yet"

Posted by: Scott J at December 08, 2011 01:19 PM (KC2BE)

Oh holy sweet Jesus on a Christmas cracker.  The man should be clapped in irons and throw into the Potomac for that statement.  You don't KNOW yet?  DOJ has had months to "investigate" F&F.  If they still haven't figured out "who made the decision" to greenlight it, then it means they know (*cough* Obama *cough*) and don't want to tell.

In other words they're trying to figure out who from the Bush administration  they can blame. 

154 Poe suggesting that someone is guilty of manslaughter here.

Asking Holder if he'll hold someone responsible for that.

155 Dark Lord is correct. Your analysis is flawed, Ace. Holder and Co. didn't personally kill anyone (that we know of) or even order the killing of anyone (see previous parenthetical) and thus this is all just hypothetical events happening very far away to complete strangers. Just convenient tools for political ends.

Remember "Never let a crisis be wasted?" That applies to completely external crises like the Mexican drug war.

156 "Yes. There were 100 witnesses, from angry, abused gun shop owners to ATF agents crying foul and pushing the panic button. What was the plan with all those witnesses? Posted by: ace at December 08, 2011 12:40 PM (nj1bB)" Except there weren't. Gun dealers were told to make the sale and the guns would be interedicted. This happens regularly - once the guns leave the store, ATF is supposed to track them. So you tell the dealers to make the sale, that the guns will be tracked, then you don't track them. The dealer is none the wiser. As far as the plan with witnesses, we know they already tried to dirty up at least one witness, by their own admission (agent Dodson). If they thought what they were doing was all above board, please explain to me why the attempt to dirty up an agent WHILE THE OP IS HAPPENING? Do you think Dodson was the only one they were trying to dirty up so they could be slienced?

157 Poe sez that whoever is responsible has committed criminal acts.

158

Poe: "who made the decision" to green light this.

Holder: "We don't know yet"

So as far as we know, it could have been Al Quaeda...

Who can say really.

Maybe Sarkozy ordered it.

159 How many people who are committed to the Reichstag Fire scenario also believe that Waco was a deliberate murder/immolation (and also probably about stripping gun rights away from citizens)?

Posted by: ace

Ace, this is a particularly desperate and vituperative form of argument. You are attempting to draw out a few that have issues with Waco in order to discredit their belief in the ATF / Admin Gun Walker stance.

The two aren't directly connected. This is a strawman stuffed with Ad hominem.

160 OK, CA moonbat up now to verbally fellate Holder.

161 Scooby Doo and The Mysterious Case of the Undordered Order.

162 Oh, better - The Invisible Green Light.

163 Scooby Doo and The Mysterious Case of the Undordered Order.

 And we would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those darn meddling Republicans.

164

"The failed policies of the Bush Administration".

How many times did we hear this during the 2008 campaign? ....And the left is still using that phrase.

But Operation Gun Runner was an operation that the Bush Administration itself declared a failure! ....Even with the envolvement of Mexican law enforcement to aid in intercepting the guns at the border, and with using little tracking devices in the guns....that operation failed to produce the desired results.

So....why did the Obama Administration decide to resurrect this 'failed policy' and even pump it full of steroids, while intentionally removing the 2 aspects that were there in the original operation of 1) envolving Mexican LEOs and, 2) using tracking devices in the firearms?

165

Watching Holder lie in anticipation of the future lies he has to make is interesting.

 

Watching the entire democratic party act as accessories after the fact to numerous felonies is interesting.

 

Seeing how little press coverage there will be of this hearing tomorrow will be interesting.

166 Holder: "ahamana, ahamana, uh, uh ahamana I don't ahamana huh.

167 Democrats trying to change the subject.

168 Who's going to get killed? This is just a gun control thing, it's all statistics. No more or less people are going to get killed because the cartels got a gun from a US gun store versus robbed it from the Mexican military who got it from a US gun company versus robbed it from the Mexican military that also buys from the Russians and Chinese versus just smuggling it in from Russia, China, South America, and so forth. I'm thinking that's how they thought of it. They didn't think it would lead to additional murders. Just murders with different guns.

169

Ace - No "d" in Lungren.

Dan, not Dolph.

Just sayin'

170 They're really trying to connect this to Bush aren't they.

171 WTF is Quigly doing? (besides wasting time?)

172 We do know who authorized F&F. The Dept. of Justice. Headed by Attorney General Eric Holder. Case closed.

173 Amazing, isn't it? A major gun running operation funded by the fucking Federal Government and nobody fucking knows who authorized it. Yeah, sure. The fucking tooth fairy authorized it. No answer means the worst case scenerio theory is still alive.

174 Quigley rope-a-dope (and I do mean DOPE!)

175 Chaffetz up. Popcorn time.

176

about the only thing that Holder can say now to save his ass is...................

boobs, beer, and bacon are good things.

177 You know in the movies.. the whistleblower hero sends a package to a trusted source with instructions to mail to the MSM if something happens to them. The package has all the dirty details of the Govt or Big Corp's misdeeds. The MSM would burn the package and eat the ashes in this case.

178 Dang this guy is good.  Thumbs up to Chaffetz.

179 Chaffetz (man-crush in real time)

180 I the thread below baldilocks commented how bad SJ Lee's weave is today.  Now we call her Rep.Shelia Jackson Bad Weave.

181 Oh man, Holder is personally insulted now. His ego might be his undoing.

182 @165 Indeed. It has been interesting watching Holder anticipate the countless deaths that will be caused by criminals using F&F guns. He seems rather nonchalant about it, and is clearly setting expectations so when the inevitable occurs, he can respond to the outrage by saying "Of course, I predicted this months ago in testimony before several congressional committees...next question."

183 The two aren't directly connected.

The irony is, they are, in a way.  Both are the intersection of malice, agenda, and incompetence.  As I said, the hallmarks of the American Left, and the inevitable result of granting them any level of authority.

184 #152

Are you really trying to argue that there is anything too far-fetched for liberals to believe? These are people who still believe that Stalin was misunderstood. These are the people who still believe communism can work if it is 'just done right.'

Stealing from Douglas Adams, these people regularly perform suspensions of disbelief that would stun a Scientologist.

They not only suspend disbelief but hang it by the neck until dead.

Recall yesterday that their current Grand Poobah claimed publicly that capitalism "has never worked." He didn't say capitalism but as mentioned, the phrase he used was hardly distinguishable from capitalism in a general.

185 The Columbine Massacre couldn't produce the legislation that you're assuming is the point of all this and those were children.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 08, 2011 01:21 PM (vzFJV)

I get your point, EoJ, but we can't forget that this asshole administration doesn't care about the rule of law or the traditional legislative process.  They make handwave acknowledgements to Congressional power, and then Obama goes ahead and bypasses Congress by issuing an Executive Order or making a recess appointment or allowing one of his Department chiefs to issue a new, more restrictive set of regulations.  It doesn't matter if the administration thinks something will be passed; it's the chances of something being overruled that they worry about.  And look at where we are today.

* Obamacare - one of the most hated pieces of legislation in recent memory - still on the books.

* The lightbulb ban: still on the books.

* Obama's back-door amnesty EO: still on the books.

* The moritorium on offshore drilling: still on the books through sheer bureucratic stall tactics.

The administration doesn't care what the public wants.  It cares about what they think the public needs.  Because The Government is smarter than The People, and We would all be Lost without Them.

186 He's never spoken to anyone at the top of the respective U.S. and Mexican chains of command for law enforcement about F&F? Not effin' credible.

187 Oh yessssss! I must get this onto DVD. Mike V. will want a copy.

188 175 Chaffetz up. Popcorn time.

Time to move to Utah I guess.

189 He's never spoken to anyone at the top of the respective U.S. and Mexican chains of command for law enforcement about F&F? Not effin' credible.

  Here they might have him. I'm sure he spoke to the Mexican Government. This probably won't be hard to confirm...

190 Wow, man-crush for Chaffetz is right!

191 "Meaningful conversations between DoJ and DHS occur at lower levels"?

What in hell are you being paid for, then?

192 Virgina Tech shooting.  One police officer shot, 2nd victim reported per KFI Los Angeles.  Gunman on foot.  School on lockdown

193 Holder: "I don't know what the flow of information is within the White House"

How F'N not?! The POTUS is your boss!

194 "Meaningful conversations between DoJ and DHS occur at lower l

  Gross incompetence then. Resign you sack of shit!

195 mpfs, there is another thread on that.

196 Poe was good. Chaffertz was good. Good stuff.

197 Thanks dogfish.

198 Except they didn't commit murder, or even INTEND to commit murder. All they are doing is the same thing the Bush admin did, except for the trivial matter of TRYING to track the guns. The Bush ATF couldn't track the guns under Wide Receive, either, except at least they TRIED, but failed. I don't see these people that are fully on board with advancing the GOOD DEED of gun control as worrying about a bunch of brown people in Mexico killing each other when they are already doing that anyhow. Nor did they think anyone would find out, or care. And really, if not for Brian Terry, would we ? Have found out ? Or cared ? I'm not sure we would have found out at all.

199 Is anyone ( and by "anyone" I mean Repub House Member  pursuing the violations by DOJ, et al, of the Whistleblower Protection Law re: Dobson, etc?

200 @196, any of this changing your views, Ace?

201 189
Here they might have him. I'm sure he spoke to the Mexican Government. This probably won't be hard to confirm...
Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at December 08, 2011 01:32 PM (X4EXc)

Look for DoJ later today to issue a "clarification and/or amplification" concerning Holder's inadvertent misspeaking.

202 Wheeeee! Recess! Will there be cookies and choklit milk?

203 The two aren't directly connected.

The irony is, they are, in a way. Both are the intersection of malice, agenda, and incompetence. As I said, the hallmarks of the American Left, and the inevitable result of granting them any level of authority.
Posted by: >DarkLord© for Prez!

Again, they are not materially connected. There may be a connection institutionally or in the disposition of Fed LEO's but the cases are not directly connected with any evidence out there, circumstantially or concrete.

204 199, no and Mike blogged a few days ago about how he's miffed at Issa and Grassley for not protecting them more.

205 #164

Liberals are eternally beloved of embracing bad ideas with the excuse the previous attempts weren't flawed in conception, just in execution.

Plus, being able to claim it was a holdover from the Bush administration offered plausible deniability.

Part of being liberal is having a brain that allow for mutually contradictory ideas to be accepted simultaneously.

206 Remarkable how scandal-free this administration has been, isn't it?

207 We do know who authorized F&F. The Dept. of Justice. Headed by Attorney General Eric Holder. Case closed. Didn't you see Corzine's testimony? He's the head of the agency, dude. He can't be expected to know anything!

208 "in order to advance some political issue at the margins" But it's not at the margins for them. You're forgetting how far to the Left they really are. Their political ideology includes, as a fundamental precept, that private gun ownership is anathema to a "civil" society. Fundamental. So no, this is not a marginal issue for them at all. And given the other quotes (including Obama's "under the radar") floating around out there, I think you're missing an important piece of the puzzle. And I will echo the point made by others: Holder and company surely did not expect F&F to be exposed. First, they're way too smart to be caught by the rest of us knuckle-dragging peons. *Especially* given how "transparent" the current administration is. Second, MFM. Given how this has played out, I am 99% convinced it really was a grand strategy. Not that they're Grand Strategists. That would imply multiple functional brain cells. Something I've seen no indication of whatsoever. SCOAMF, and all that....

209 Part of being liberal is having a brain that allow for mutually contradictory ideas to be accepted simultaneously.


Ahem That's DOUBLETHINK^tm

210 People just offer up the answer "They're arrogant, and they have the media to cover for them," and further offer the difficult-to-rebut point "...as the media is covering for them right now," and yet I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes in order to advance some political issue at the margins.

But to Liberals/Leftists, ideology is everything.  They still think the Soviet Union was a paradise because the Soviet Union kept to the theory for seventy-odd years.  The fact that people suffered and died, that the economy was destroyed, all that is secondary to keeping the ideology sacrosanct. 

211

Someone, ACE, needs to do a daily body count on the murders perpetrated by Obama, Holder, BATF, DEA, until either top level officials start  resigning or the Repunks find the cajones to bring Impeachemnt charges for High crimes and misdemeanors or more specifically accomplises to murder and treason to subvert the second amendment of the US Constitution.

 

Daily body count posted at top of sire either ACE or Drudge please!

I will start:

 323  HISPANICS and TWO US BORDER PATROL AGENTS DEAD

at the hands of Obama is a Stuttering Cluster*uck Of An Impeachable Miserable Failure and his lackeys!

212

204 "199, no"

 

Until they do, I don't see this investigation gaining enough traction.  I guess the question becomes "Why?"

213 Those damn TMs are taking this economy down!

First the ATMs and now, the RTMs!

214 they're way too smart to be caught by the rest of us knuckle-dragging peons

Excatly. You think they counted on dumb, stupid street agent Dodson going off the reservation?

Did they count on a couple of bloggers pushing this until Issa, Grassley and CBS noticed? Bloggers are stupid and can't be believed (according to the left).

215

top of site not sire

 and if ya don't know the exact number just make one up each day like the Presstitutes always do in supplication and masterbation for their Lyin kING

216 Everyone, keep in mind that NONE of what they say as explanation can be relied upon as fact.

NOTHING.

This to anyone relying on their explanation that this was about shutting down some "Phoenix based gun distribution network".

They know they're cooked if they tell the truth.

217 212, It is either lack of spine on Issa and Grassley's part or it's 3D chess again.

Issa made some noise about no retaliation before. Perhaps he's now giving Holder, et al enough rope on that to hang himself.

The whole wanting to put Holder under oath thing should show you where his mind is.

218 off sock.

219

Holder: "I don't know what the flow of information is within the White House"

That is a goddamned lie.

Period.

And back to Ace's original post--I still have not heard one word from Holder, the USDA in Phoenix, ATF, or Fox NFL Sunday on what F&F was supposed to accomplish--the end goal.  Until then, my own conspiracy deflector is in the "off" position.

220 It is very, very easy for people of a certain mindset to doom people to death in pursuit of what they consider a higher purpose.  Uh didn't that FBI deep cover agent get Ayers in tape talking about offing at least 25 million of us that they expect to not welcome our newly outed Marxist overlords, in death camps?

221 Everyone, keep in mind that NONE of what they say as explanation can be relied upon as fact

Which is why there need to be more subpoenas.

They may already have Holder on withholding stuff subponead already judging from today's testimony.

222 "Maybe Sarkozy ordered it."

No, it was Newt (Madman) Gingrich.

Last week, we thought it was Cain, but upon further investigation, we are sure it was Newt.

223 200 "@196, any of this changing your views, Ace?"   Looks like it's going to take another FlashMob Moron Intervention to get this site to move off of "Default" Mode.  Ace,  what is the threshold for this to finally become Special Prosecutor time.

224 At least he's on record as being incompetent OR the job of Attorney General is superfluous.

225 >> Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them. I haven't seen that movie about the Wannsee Conference yet... were the German guys in the meeting really stoked about their plan?

226 ScottJ, Nope. If it turns out that way, I'll bring a rope. but I don't expect it turn out that way. Everyone is a person to himself. By which I mean: Completely inhuman motivations are easily enough to ascribe to other people. But to that person himself, he has to worry about things like, "Hey, do I get the lethal injection at the end of the day?" people blip over such things with statements like "Ideology is EVERYTHING to a liberal." Well... his personal well-being is probably up there, too.

227 219, if not a lie then he really may be as incompetent as one would need to be to do F&F and not see what the consequences would be.

228 That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice.

In fairness, Ace, the heads of these departments and the country now are the disciples of people who thought a valid form of anti-war protest in the 1960's and 70's was to plant bombs, designed specifically to be antipersonnel, in public spaces.

And I don't think the deaths were the planned feature, but a side-effect.  I think they just didn't care enough to run an assessment of what the casualty figures might be and just wanted to bolster the talking point of "U.S. Guns used in most Mexican crimes"

229 Why does Obama hate Mexicans so much?

230

Unless they're just trying to send everyone down on perjury charges I think they really need to make with a high-profile indictment now, Holder on perjury.

To send the message that if you don't cooperate with the investigation and start selling each other out and passing blaim we can toss the whole lot in jail.

It's not whether anyone goes to jail, it's who goes to jail, and a lot of bureaucrats need that made clear to them.

Plus the indictment of the AG would finally call serious media attention on to this.

231 "1. "Moderate Iranians." The administration arms up a rival of the Zapas (if I have that name right), attempting to curry favor with one cartel." Probably something like that. I think they wanted to destabilize and weaken the ruling Mexican gangs/government by sowing random chaos. A very diffuse proxy war as halfheartedly implemented by incompetent bureaucrats. They made no attempt to track the guns because where they ended up didn't matter, because they didn't want to leave a paper trail, and because the results of the tracking would probably reveal a lot of corrupt people in their own agencies. The ginned-up domestic gun control stats were just a happy side effect, making pink lemonade from the inevitable bloody lemons. Providing weapons to one enemy to kill another enemy is sometimes a viable strategy. But probably not when you share a porous border with the enemy in question, and definitely not with anyone like Eric Holder in charge. So why not come out and explain this? Because Mexico's government is effectively owned by the criminal cartels, with the same gangs now extending their territory into the US. But saying that out loud would upset a lot of people, all of whom the administration cares about more than innocent Mexicans or US citizens.

232 Everyone, keep in mind that NONE of what they say as explanation can be relied upon as fact.

NOTHING.

This to anyone relying on their explanation that this was about shutting down some "Phoenix based gun distribution network".

Well that was the purpose stated in warrants that were issued in 2009 to install the pole cameras used to observe the straw purchases. They do have video surveillance, recorded phone conversations and have indicted the 20 individually connected (ATFs assertion) straw purchasers that the investigation was geared toward from the beginning. But maybe that's just window dressing for the dumbest conspiracy of all time. You're probably right.

233 Issa stated he had reuqested that Holder be placed under oath before the committee and that said request had been denied? I want to fucking know why that request was denied? By a Republican committee chairman.

234

How is the full blame for

a.) The existence of drug cartels

b.) The killings

not the fault prohibition?

Yes, Holder should be impeached because the motivation for his actions was to set up gun retailers as the fall guys, but people kill people, not guns. And the market was created by prohibition.

235 ScottJ,

Nope.

If it turns out that way, I'll bring a rope. but I don't expect it turn out that way

As I said above I've come to believe you and I only disagree on motive.

I still think motive was malice against RKBA.

Do you have a theory on motive or are you still waiting to see what it might be?

236 And I don't think the deaths were the planned feature, but a side-effect.  I think they just didn't care enough to run an assessment of what the casualty figures might be and just wanted to bolster the talking point of "U.S. Guns used in most Mexican crimes"
Posted by: Ranba Ral

Exactly.

237 It seems that things are starting to happen.

Add to all of the above Sharyl Atkisson's (of CBS) video on US approval of large escalation of legal gun sales to Mexico. Link at HotAir Archives, see December 6, 2011.

Can the Mexican government account for these weapons? Could the Mexican government account for weapons from previous sales? Was Holder aware of this?

Perhaps F&F is not the entire scenario ...

Ace: are you sufficiently tanned, rested and ready?

238 "Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them."

We beg to differ.

239 Well... his personal well-being is probably up there, too.

Posted by: ace at December 08, 2011 01:49 PM (nj1bB)

As was Blago's.  A bit of a miscalculation?

240

230  "Plus the indictment of the AG would finally call serious media attention on to this."

I don't think this committe has that authority, do they?  Can they make only non-binding recommendations or function more like a Grand Jury, reliant on House Leadership to pursue a Special Prosecutor that the Administration must agree upon?

241 233, when Issa requested that you could hear the murmurings throughout the room. The chairman was too spineless to let it become a fight.

Issa only backed down when assured that lying to the committee would still carry the same legal weight as lying under oath.

I speculate Issa is going to threaten to pursue that unless he gets all the info he wants.

242 80 2. This is sick, but statistical profiling: Just send out these guns, wait for them to show up in reports, and somehow use that information to statistically figure out the chain of sales. In essence, murders are used to "light up" the distribution chain, because they provide data points. I vote for this, because it smacks of a detached, abstract bureaucratic mentality, the hallmark of our administrative tyrants in government. It's not like the murders would happen in front of them, or even show up as anything other than figures on a page. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Except there is no "chain". There is only gun purchase by known straw purchaser... and... location of murder later on. That is decidedly not a chain, but a single straight line with zero information except identity of purchaser and probably organization by whom and against whom crime was committed. That is exceptionally weak. Maybe a plausible explanation that defies criminal prosecution, but not rank incompetence.

243 "I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes"

Ace, what makes you think that either is a possibility?

Impeachment: as long as they have 34 Senate Copperheads / RINOs with safe districts and no qualms about treason, impeachment is off the table. Bottom line.

Prosecutable? Well, let's see: the national prosecuting authority (DoJ) is the one committing the crime, and the head of the conspiracy has Presidential pardon power at will.

There is no legal recourse against these people, and the sooner we accept that fact and plan accordingly the better.

244 "That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice." Ace, I think you're missing a point here. The program had an intent. It was done for a reason. I agree, we should assume that the part where people would get killed by smuggled guns was missed. The designers of the program missed that part REGARDLESS of the intent of the program. Because what intent would justify this SIDE EFFECT? So the existence of this side effect can be ignored in the analysis. It was just overlooked. So we are back to asking what the intent of the program was. If there was no tracking of the weapons through the network, there is only one legitimate purposes I can figure: Get a correlation between guns injected via this access point to guns recovered at various places. But what good is that information without discovering the network nodes? How does it help anything? It leaves only one answer I can I see.

245 The number of warrants issued upon distorted facts or outright lies is more than any normal person would believe.

It happens in EVERY jurisdiction.

Most times it's just misinformation. Sometimes it's tactical on the part of the affiants (LE). Sometimes it's malicious and/or CYA time.

Only the most egregious incidents get in the paper.

246 Before any action is "green-lighted", don't they have to state the objective of the action?  I mean, it's a really simple question...  what was the purpose of moving thousands of guns into Mexican criminals' hands and not tracking those guns?  Simple question....  and the purpose should have been stated before the action was "green-lighted".

247 I thought I would interject that the reason the Mexican president hasn't said anything is that when he starts complaining,  this will be an international incident which could be construed as an attack on Mexico,  requiring some sort of response.

I don't think he wants another Mexican-American war,  so he is being quiet.  If he brings this up,  opposition political parties will start talking about how the gringos are treating Mexico with contempt,  national honor demands we respond, etc.

So we won't hear anything from Mexico at all.

248 How many people who are committed to the Reichstag Fire scenario also believe that Waco was a deliberate murder/immolation (and also probably about stripping gun rights away from citizens)?

Posted by: ace at December 08, 2011 12:56 PM (nj1bB)

First thing, by using the phrase 'Reichstag Fire scenario' you draw parallels between F&F and the actual Reichstag Fire, which was a meticulously planned and well-executed plot to justify the implementation of  greater oppression under the guise of 'emergency measures'. That's a misnomer, in my view, because I don't think those  in the Obama Administration behind this clusterfark ever got together and said, 'This is what we're going to do, in detail.'

Yes, I believe it was a conspiracy, but it was a conspiracy of dunces. A DoJ official gets the word from Holder that the President wants some action taken on the Mexican problem, especially since Hillary made her 90% speech. The word goes down through the chain, from the DoJ to the ATF regional offices, getting more garbled along the way. Somewhere, someone--probably an old ATF guy--remembers the Bush-era gun-tracing operation. One thing leads to another leads to another.   

Think Watergate: who authorized and directed the break-in? No one knows for sure to this day, although evidence points to John Dean.

Why? The election was already a done deal. Nixon was projected to win by a landslide. Digging up dirt on the Dems by means of an illegal break-in made no sense. To this day, motives are still obscure. And why choose losers like washed-up former spook E. Howard Hunt and oddball eccentric G. Gordon Liddy? No one knows. Magic 8-Ball says Come Back Later.

You're trying to draw logical conclusions based on a rational model; that is, an operation with clearly defined aims. What if the model is irrational? Try following the logic on either Watergate or Fast & Furious and you come up against a convoluted labrynth of cross-purposes, bureaucratic bumbling, and top-down miscommunication.

Ace, you ask, 'What about witnesses?' Okay, what about them? To what, exactly, could they testify? ATF agents, insofar as they knew, were running an op similar to what they had done under Bush. Gunshop owners? They did as they were told, cooperating fully with the authorities in what they thought was a legitimate law enforcement effort. No one but higher-ups--way higher-ups--had a bigger picture view. Everyone else saw only those aspects that affected them directly.

Holder knows everything, and I'm guessing he's the only one who does.

249 248, good points. Hoplophobia is irrational in and of itself so it makes sense those consumed with it would act irrationally.

250 I'm with Ace on this one.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, surely these Government folks are honest!

251 #234

So Holder should play this card?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PYb_anBMus

252

243"I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes"

 

Ask Randy Weavers dead wife, kid, dog and about 35 folks at WACO about this.

The perpetrators at WACO, Janet El Reno and Bill Clintoon walked so now Holder, Obama and company get to also?

253 What Scooter Libby and Oliver North did was worse than this? Repunks?

254

From The Weekly Standard, via Drudge (currently center column, top):

Rep. James Sensenbrenner asked Holder: “Tell me what's the difference between lying and misleading Congress, in this context?”

Holder's response is a bit Clintonian. Â“Well, if you want to have this legal conversation, it all has to do with your state of mind and whether or not you had the requisite intent to come up with something that would be considered perjury or a lie," Holder said.

[end quote]

The Holder quote has one more sentence: "The information that was provided by the February 4th letter was gleaned by the people who drafted the letter after they interacted with people who they thought were in the best position to have the information.”

 ... but it's marginally relevant. The people drafting the letter might have thought they had the truth, but the information they got was still a lie.

Holder has not the intelligence of Slick Willie, nor the skill, nor the contacts, influence or power.

It looks like the S.S. Holder is going down, and in a messy way.

255

That is exceptionally weak. Maybe a plausible explanation that defies criminal prosecution, but not rank incompetence.

It's not suppose to defy rank incompetence.

They are rankly incompetent.

256

That excuse ought not defy criminal prosecution either.

257

How long until Issa and the Republicans are accused of doing this only because Holder and Obama are black?

I'd say just as soon as that lying, screech gorilla, lump of Houstonian melanin whore, (aka Sheila jackson Lee) gets a chance to stand in front of a news camera. 

PS - I didn't vote for her, but I couldn't vote against her because I don't live in her district (since I'm not a welfare fraud, crack addict, self-annointed "reverend" with prior felony convictions, or a pimp.)

 

258 #225

No, in the movie the opinions in the room were very mixed (although all were anti-semites of varying intensity) but it turns out towards the end this was never really a meeting to work out a plan. The plan was already decided and under way; these guys were just being gathered to be informed it was a done deal. Ribbontrop (Kenneth Branagh) just wanted to maintain the appearance of a democracy for a while longer.

It's very much worth watching. It isn't just a bunch of guys getting together and saying, "We're just so amazingly evil. How shall we demonstrate this to the world?" Rather, it was men who thought they were the good guys, restoring their nation from a degraded status but not realizing until too late what kind of people they'd allied themselves to and once committed there was no turning back.

259 "PS - I didn't vote for her, but I couldn't vote against her because I don't live in her district (since I'm not a welfare fraud, crack addict, self-annointed "reverend" with prior felony convictions, or a pimp.)" Dammit! Get to work! We're counting on you!

260  Rather, it was men who thought they were the good guys, restoring their nation from a degraded status but not realizing until too late what kind of people they'd allied themselves to and once committed there was no turning back.

Posted by: epobirs at December 08, 2011 02:35 PM (kcfmt)

 

I didn't see the movie was it about the Democrap party?

261 waterboard the SOB until he gives up everyone and everything, including the SCOAMF. then take him out and shoot him for treason.

262

"People commit murder over matters of intense personal interest to them. Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them. There are few "public interest murders." Murders are committed over money, and sex/infidelity/sexual obsession/sexual abandonment, and... well 90% those two things."

"...and yet I have trouble comprehending someone setting out to commit impeachable and prosecutable (and in fact: executable) crimes in order to advance some political issue at the margins."

 

Hey Ace! What about the other 10%?

263 #260

Not quite but it serves as a warning.

http://tinyurl.com/23rddv

I remembered wrong. Branagh was portraying Reinhard Heydrich, about as evil a person as ever walking the earth.

Much of the focus is on Stanley Tucci as Eichmann. His actions at the very end is what puts a really chilling twist on the whole proceeding.

264 "... That's the part I can't buy. According to the conspiracy theory, the department set out to get lots of people killed, and apparently thought no one would ever notice ..."
= = = = = =

No --  you're supposing they thought it through carefully.  They didn't. 

The department set out "to get guns into the hands of criminals".  They were expecting (some-kind-of, vaguely-defined) "crimes" to be committed, but didn't  bother to worry about specifically WHAT crimes.  When Agent Brian Terry was murdered with one of their "walked" guns, these political hacks were suddenly jolted out of their warm-n-fuzzy "we can get those nasty guns banned" liberal dream, and thrust into the nightmare of "good God, our wonderful plan got an American Border Patrol agent killed; heads are gonna roll; we've GOT to distance ourselves from the blowback".

I expect that's the long and the short of it.  Typically Liberal.  "I don't have to worry about unintended consequences:  I'm doing Good Things (*)  in trying to keep guns away from the rightwing stoopids (who want to depend on themselves in crisis instead of waiting for Officially-Credentialed Minions of Government), so my cause is pure and social justice will prevail".

(*) (hah! I almost said "Doing God's Work" but we know they don't believe in any God more lofty than their own noble intentions!)

265 About to start up again. I can haz new thread plz?

266

People commit murder over matters of intense personal interest to them. Rarely do you see someone committing a murder over something which is abstract to them.

Depends on how you define what is personal or abstract to a person.  To a Marxist ideologe, their beliefs are deeply personal.  It is their religion.  It is their power.  Lenin, Staliln, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, et. al.

267 What was the plan with all those witnesses? Same as all other political arguments. Smear the whistle blower. Anti-global warming = tool of Big Oil Aghast at F&F = tool of NRA or racist. Didn't they already smear one whistle blower? Probably scared a lot of others to keep quiet or lose their pensions too.

268 Looking back at leftist history, I really don't think murder was something that especially bothers these people when a political goal is at stake. Their only concern is getting away with it.

If they'd thought it through more and were capable of deeper thought, they'd have realized that guns in the hands of foreign gangsters isn't something even the most ardent anti-gun voter expects to change. Ban within the US wouldn't matter. Given that, the objective would have been to get the guns into the hands of some loony White Supremacist group. Preferably one that calls themselves a militia. THAT would really push voter buttons. But pulling off that scenario would tax their abilities far too much. The candidates out there are either too smart to fall for it or too inept to hold up their end.

269 Did anyone else find it interesting when Grassley wouldn't let the bone go. They were then trying to find information on Grassely to shut him up?

imagine if that is how this administration is ran?

270 I think most of this discussion is just people framing themselves into a corner, and thus trying to push people they disagree with into another corner, even if the real disagreement is *emphasis*. And, in some cases, the disagreement is complete, I'm not saying it isn't. But one side is lined up and shouting at the other for "excusing murder" and the other side is lined up and shouting at the first side for saying "drooling conspiracy theory of deliberate cackling mass murder." That's all horseshit. I have said (or tried to say) from the beginning that the "control/regulation" motive is a plausible motive (*A* motive, not the only motive) based on the evidence we have so far, and that the decision-makers knew and did not care about the body count (we have testimony to that effect). And yet I am accused of crazy conspiracy theories. I have yet to see a stronger hypothesis *BASED ON THE EVIDENCE* yet, just relatively wild guesses. - The "law enforcement motive" breaks down on the facts of the operation, though obviously the testimony is full of talk about it. - The "proxy war motive" is AFAICT based on one article by an anonymous source and a history of metaphorically similar operations. - The "corruption motive" is based on stories of corruption not directly related to this case - The "just plain dumb motive" is probably the most charitable idea, and kind of glosses over the evidence presented so far, especially the acknowledgements that they knew ahead of time what the consequences would be. Now, in real life, complex actions usually have multiple motivations or rationalizations behind them. Especially if negative or morally questionable actions or outcomes are foreseen. Unfortunately, what could have been "maybe X, but I think Y is more likely" almost instantly became "YOU DEVIL, HOW DARE YOU BELIEVE/DEFY X." Because Republicans would rather fight each other than fight the opposition. Sorry I won't really be around today to either bat around commenters or be batted around. Have fun fighting each other.

271 I can't watch the hearings where I am.  What's being said now?  is it still Holder on the grill, or someone new?

272 I'm curious about the whole term Conspiracy..
so Obama says i'm the only thing between you and pitchforks. Then has His seiu,/sterns (that hangs out at the white house a day or so a week) etc  team up on to put out names of folks that are then intimidated at their homes by their union friends.
so when does something actually Become a conspiracy?

273 is it normal for  Administrations to use fellow citizens in a deliberate manner to intimidate others so they can get laws passed that they desire?
are there other cases of this that I don't know of?

274 Make anything of the fact that the Congressional Dems are not running direct interference for Holder? The juxtaposition is astounding  The alternating questioning goes something like:  "What did you know and when did you and Lanny Breuer know it?" when the Repub questions and then the Dem asks something like:  "Can I tell you how many of my constituents love the routine things your department does for us (channeling their "nothing to see here" subliminal mantra)?

275 sorry  jobs bills passed*

276 Currently up: Trey Gowdy (R-SC) and doing a fine job.

277 I can't watch the hearings where I am.  What's being said now?  is it still Holder on the grill, or someone new

Just started back up. Holder still. Gowdy (R-SC) grilling him over the 2/4/11 letter containing falsehoods (Holder calls them inaccuracies). Letter was withdrawn 10 months later. Gowdy wanting to know why not sooner.

278 Holder still on the grill and Mr. Gowdy is doing a fine logical job kicking Holder in the nuts.

279 Oh good grief!

Holder: our response to Congressional inquiries was inaccurate because we were rushed.

280 Oh boy, Ted Douche, oops that Deutch, (D-FL, I think) is asking the questions now.

281 Scott, well might be true, rushing to get rid of evidence and close files that might hurt them?

282 Oh man. Holder has lied again.

Now he's saying he first learned of F&F in Jan. Back in March he testified he learned of it "a couple of weeks ago".

283 280, but he screwed up and let Holder lie yet again on the "when did you know" question.

284 OMG!

We didn't track because we didn't have resources.

285 Once again, where do these people get these Mexican crimes committed with US guns come from.  He is actually forwarding the mrmr that they need to control US guns theory.

286 They got away with HUGE campaign donation fraud... and election Fraud... and have usurped Congress's authority to go to War... they are in contempt of Court over Drilling... Romeo you forgot Contempt of Congress for refusing to hand over all Solyndra docs.

287

272  "...so when does something actually Become a conspiracy?"

 

Ace's Law:  None Dare Call it Conspiracy

Ace's Corrolary:  At present, too many dots to connect in the 3-D grid and not enough Weiner photos to confirm, let me get back to you...

288 Dang my lack of typing prowess!  mrmr = meme  ..and...  come from = stats from.

289 We didn't track because we didn't have resources.

  How does he Know? He never read anything about this operation. He said so himself. "I didn't read the memos."

290 Well that slurping sound from Deutch if finally over.

291 Getting grilled about how he could be so disconnected as to NOT know all the F&F details.

292 Congressman Ross is in the middle of a serious undressing of Holder.  WOW!!!

293 292, establishing for the record that Holder hasn't apologized to Terry's family.

294 Delegate (not Rep.) from Puerto Rico getting to kiss Holder's ass now.

295 279 Oh good grief!

Holder: our response to Congressional inquiries was inaccurate because we were rushed.

Posted by: Scott J at December 08, 2011 03:14 PM (KC2BE)

Oh, fuck you, Holder!  Jesus Christ, I hate this man. 

(You can tell I mean it because of the overt blasphemy.)

296 Who the hell is this guy from Puerto Rico.  Are they one of the 57 states?

297 Spinning the anti-gun lies about "gon shows" now.

298 We didn't track because we didn't have resources.

  How does he Know? He never read anything about this operation. He said so himself. "I didn't read the memos."

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna

Exactly.  Plus, he doesn't know who "green-lighted" this operation yet he knows that they didn't track due to lack of resources?

It is one thing to be a lying, felonious douchbag, but to be a STUPID, lying, felonious douchbag is inexcusable.

299 The Dem questioning is interesting. Caught with their pants down on this and they still bleat for more gun control.

They just won't let it go no matter how much popular opinion is against them.

300 Something must be missing in the translation from our Representative from Puerto Rico, is he stepping in it by going back to "gun control" and "lack of resources" as the operative narrative "reason" for F&F?  Good opening for a Repub to cross-examine this line of questioning...

301 Why do I feel offended that this non Congressman is sitting on this committee?

302 284 OMG!

We didn't track because we didn't have resources.

Posted by: Scott J at December 08, 2011 03:17 PM (KC2BE)

ARRRGH!  In other words, "If we'd had more money, we wouldn't have had to carry out a pathetically flawed plan that no one with an ounce of sense would ever believe could work."   Which, in still OTHER words, means, "Raise taxes so we don't have to scrimp."

Scott J, I don't know how you can watch and not be possessed with the urge to throw your computer monitor/television set out the window.  I am honestly glad I can't see this slimy sonofabitch's testimony right now, or I might actually have to strangle someone with a phone cord.

303 301, because you're a racist like me. We should just cut PR loose and quit sending them money.

304 Didn't Bill Ayers say 25 million deaths would be OK, as long as Utopia was achieved. This is their mindset.

305 Scott J, I don't know how you can watch and not be possessed with the urge to throw your computer monitor/television set out the window.  I am honestly glad I can't see this slimy sonofabitch's testimony right now, or I might actually have to strangle someone with a phone cord

I had to learn self control after back in the 90's Schumer was spouting some offensive anti-gun stuff and I literally walked across the living room and punched my TV screen (about knocked it off the stand).

Realized I needed to get a handle on my anger.

306 Ms. Adams (R-FL) is quite incensed.  Good for her.

307

Puerto Rico is bullshit. Shit or get off the pot. Either they want to be a state or they don't.

I don't think we should give them a vote to be in the union because I don't want them. I think they should leave and GTFO.

But one or the other we have put up with their bullshit long enough. US out of Puerto Rico! No blood for rum!

308 Did those watching just catch Holder's amazing arrogance? Rep. Adams from FL was insisting on a yes or no answer and he mumbles back "don't dictate" then goes off on his spin.

Unfuckingbelivable.

309

Also, from this point forward it is now called "Port Rice".

310 Holder trying to knock Quayle off point.

311 "Now, in real life, complex actions usually have multiple motivations or rationalizations behind them. Especially if negative or morally questionable actions or outcomes are foreseen. " Yeah, that's true. And the same people can hold different rationalizations and motivations at different times. Or even at the same time, if they try hard enough. I haven't read the proxy war article you mention, so that's just my own half-assed theorizin'. What bugs me is that this particular plan seems to have more momentum behind it than the piddly little law enforcement goal would ever have justified. And then, when even that was gone, the plan kept going. In software development terms, could this all just be a sad example of feature creep run amok?

312 Holder: "Fast and Furious had nothing to do with the desire to have the long gun reporting"

313 So in his opinion, nobody should resign, but a few minutes later he repeats that 'mistakes' were made.

314 Aww, Tool Holder works long hours. 

315

312, 313

Witness the verbal gymnastics/ju-jitsu of Eric "The Weasel" Holder.

316 Bitch slap by Issa again!

I want to have his children.

317

"Contempt of Congress"

 

Money shot

318 Issa threatens to seek contempt of Congress against Holder.

319 Issa!

320 Go get'em Issa.

321

Ace, it's not that they set out to kill people. They didn't care if it happened. Had the lid not been blown off of this they would likely have used the deaths as proof of why action was needed.

Did they think they could hide this? Yes. The media protects them and since they are in charge, who is going to punish them? That was their thinking.

322

"Contempt of Congress"

 

Money shot

+100

Owwww, John Mitchell responded that way.  Holy friggin cow.

323 Why isn''t Issa running for Prez?

324 Holder invokes the McCarthy hearings!!

Oh they have him. They clearly have him.

325 Come on, it's not that complicated.  Obama, Clinton, et al, along with the more than willing media, had been yelling to high heaven about American guns being overwhelmingly responsible for gun violence in Mexico.  THERE WAS NO DATA TO SUPPORT THIS.  SO, THE DATA HAD TO BE MANUFACTURED.  How simple is that?  Do you really have to jump through tin-foil hat territory to accept this?  They were simply backflushing the guns to support and bolster their lies.

326

Holder to Issa:  FYNQ

 

Ooooooooohhhh! - [Paulie Walnuts voice]

327 Tool Holder = Ginormous Titweasel

328 Holder just signed his own contempt of Congress with his McCarthy smart-ass remark.

329 January will be an interesting month.

330 Holder looks a little older than when he walked in this morning. Guilt and lying tends to age you.

331 Absolutely disgusting cheap shot by Holder.

332 Oh Lord he played the "McCarthy " card. Desperate much ?

333 Voice mail message to Holder.  AG Holder?  We need you to come to our store so we can take your measurements for your new jumpsuit.  We have two colors available.  Orange and orange.

334

The McCarthy card from the left.

Again.

 

McCarty was right!  Hello!!!11!

335 New thread on this up.

336 Ace at #73:  I'd always assumed that Waco and Ruby Ridge were the results of incompetance rather than active malic.  I DO think that this FF progam was an attempt at a Reichstag moment.

337

McCarthy.

too damn mad to type.

338 I don't think a perp walk will do Holder justice. I now down to tar and pitchforks.

339 "US out of Puerto Rico! No blood for rum!" Wait. What???

340

And that's what makes it so hard to fight--you don't want to believe what it is, sometimes until it's too late.

I'm late to the game here, but this also sums up the problem with Obama.  Most of America can't concieve of a US President as dangerous to the interests of the country as he is.  They just can't believe, don't want to believe, certain things about a President.

341 #152, Empire of Jeff:  The UN is/has come up with a treaty to disarm citizens of member nations.  An Amendment to overturn the 2nd Amendment would rerquire Senate majority and 3/4 of the States to approve, a treaty doing the samething just involves Senate ratification.  I think this was the ultimate goal.

342 Barack Hussein Obama is perfectly okay with sacrificing the lives of American citizens and Mexican nationals to score political points.

And he is most likely going to get away with it.

343 Holder is obviously a liar and must go.  Even if he complies with the Congress, he should be impeached and indicted.  He has betrayed his oath to defend the Constitution.

As an afterthought, F&F only became "flawed" after its existence and tragic consequences - only some of which are known and others which will occur in the future - became evident, despite the efforts of the MSM to ignore them.  Before Agent Terry's death, F&F was a brilliant program which would hold the gun retailers accountable, prove that U.S. originated weapons were the source of the cartels' arsenals, and provide support for the Dems' cherished desire to circumscribe the Second Amendment.  What could go wrong?

Since Rule #1 in government is C.Y.A., it is undoubtedly true that this caper had the signed approvals of the highest levels of all the agencies involved.  I suspect, that, if Issa and Grassley keep digging, they will surface in the Oval Office.

344 You made a few good points there. I did a search on the matter and found a good number of people will agree with your blog.

345 By which I mean: Completely inhuman motivations are easily enough to ascribe to other people.

But to that person himself, he has to worry about things like, "Hey, do I get the lethal injection at the end of the day?"

people blip over such things with statements like "Ideology is EVERYTHING to a liberal."

Well... his personal well-being is probably up there, too.

Well, ace, I'm sorry you think I'm an idiot, mostly because I probably am, but I truly do believe that ideology is everything to a liberal.  I also believe that they believe that they should not, and won't, suffer any consequences for what they do.  (It's all in the intentions.)

Examples:  Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton.  Both committed serious crimes, and both suffered absolutely zero consequences.  Both are, in fact, lionized as awesome members of the Democrat party.  I could name many more who are currently serving.  Charlie Rangle.  Nancy Pelosi.  You get the idea.

Sure, some nobody like Blagovich might--might--go to prison, but that's really, really rare.  And I bet it's more theatre than actual punishment ("we need to send him to jail just to keep the rubes asleep").

My prediction: at worst, Holder may--may--lose his job.  But he will not spend a single day in jail.  I will bet on that.  I don't own any hats, but I will buy one and eat it if he does.  And I don't post pictures of myself on the internet, but I will send you a picture of said meal.

346 The administration lies, 90% of the guns in Mexico do not come from the United States.  The number 90% comes from those guns which are traceable.  The vast majority of guns come from other countries and have no serial numbers and are ; therefore, NOT traceable.