1 "a "right" comes from nature (or God), not from the pen of a politician." How about my property and gun rights? Those came from the pen of a politician. Haven't read the WS article yet but I will.

2 Posted by: The Sultan of Swagger at July 18, 2011 09:09 AM (/20v+)

How many suns are there in the sky where you are?

3

While American jobs disappear or move over-seas because of threat of corrupt union take-overs... Obama is still loved by the hard core lefties of holewood.

+Obama takes in more cash than the number of jobs created while he rules as king, lord of the rich white liberals.

4 What's the magic 8 ball say about King Putt's stunning personal announcement to be made today?

5 How about my property and gun rights? Those came from the pen of a politician.

No, they didn't.  At most, they were protected from the pen of a politician.  They were yours anyway.

When a man (or woman, but I'm lazy) is born, assuming no government at all (thus- nothing from the pen of a politician) he can do.  One of those is choose his own course (Liberty), another is pick up a stick to defend himself and kill food (Life), still another is acquire stuff- including "real" property (land- a home) (Pursuit of Property).l

No government gives these rights- though many attempt to take them away.

6

Well, not everyone in the world is boned.  The NoKos are going to be getting official Coke and KFC products soon.  That's... kind of good.  I guess.

Of course one wonders who will be able to afford such things in a country where grass is a delicacy.  And just where do they expect to get the chickens?  Methinks the few NoKos with poultry are going to find themselves without a hen in the henhouse in short order.

7

There was no single cause for the Great Recession -- lots of people did lots of stupid things, in the public sector and in the private sector.

Yeah, it was a perfect storm of stupid.  I do have fun explaining to my Canadian friends that US mortgage companies gave $250,000 mortgages to people with no verifiable income, savings, job, assets or means of paying it back.  The "wtf were they high" looks are fantastic.

And I would pick a nit over the fiscal child abuse term.  The children are already uberboned.  California has moved on to fiscal grandchild and is verging on greatgrandchild abuse.  Further picking, how is it not abusive?  Honestly, if we are going to have this fight, let's have this fight.  How is this not abusive of the next generation?  Just because the other side doesn't like the comparison doesn't mean the comparison isn't apt. 

 

 

8 Is O going today ? ....... metals love when he talks .

9

Dodd-Frank anything. *shiver*  Those 2 corrupt bone-heads shouldn't be allowed to change the toilet paper in the congressional bathroom.

10

Saw a guy named Sean Egan on CNBC this morning ... he's so gloomy about the world financial situation he makes Monty look like Pollyanna.  (Will post a link when I find it, but last I checked CNBC hadn't put the interview with Egan online.)  Coupla takeaways, working from memory here: Greece, Ireland, and Portugal cannot possibly pay their debts, and current debtholders will take haircuts of 90%, 70%, and 70% respectively on the bonds they hold; European banks will need to be backstopped by their governments, but said governments don't have the needed capital to do so ... so the Fed will end up as the backstop of last resort; CNBC anchor: so you're talking about Armageddon here  Egan: Yes  Anchor: so what should people invest in?  Egan (somewhat offended by the question): Money managers are smart - let them figure it out

Piping hot Doom!, fresh off the wires

11 Sorry to spoil it for you guys, but when the economy stays in the toilet the Democrats will say its because of Bush and Republicans deliberately trying to tank the economy.

12

Tax everyone to death and we can all have free Medicare! Life be perfect for me!

13 How many suns are there in the sky where you are?

He wasn't wrong -- I had forgotten to close an italics tag at the end of my post, which meant that all the comment posts were in italic as well. I fixed it quick, but he saw it before I got the fix posted.

14 CNBC anchor: so you're talking about Armageddon here  Egan: Yes  Anchor: so what should people invest in?
------------------------------------
Sounds like the answer should have been "Arms, ammunition, food, water, and other survival supplies.

And chaps. -no, don't ask me why."

15 #8 Want to bet Kim replaces the Colonel on the KFC buckets?

16 Posted by: Spoily McSpoilerson at July 18, 2011 09:20 AM (Q4Q1A)

Well of course that is what they will say... because all of their genius plans didn't work.

17 Posted by: Spoily McSpoilerson at July 18, 2011 09:20 AM (Q4Q1A)

They're already trying to do that- I don't think it's getting as much traction as they were expecting, though.  That whole "Your family can't just raise it's 'debt ceiling'" point seems to be getting through to people.

18 If, as the Left believes, health care is a God given right, why am I forced to pay for them for it?

19 I dubbed them, Sutton/Dillinger, because it's more honest, a description,

20

Buy gold, baby!

Gold reaches record high as markets stressed by banks and eurozone worries

21 "If, as the Left believes, health care is a God given right, why am I forced to pay for them for it?"

Because Republicans ended slavery they can't get doctors to work for free.

22

What's the magic 8 ball say about King Putt's stunning personal announcement to be made today?

*shakes*  I, I , I, me, me, let me be clear, childish Republicans, um, um, uh, I, I, me.

 

 

23

I like how Charles Krauthammer seems to be on a crusade. Over the weekend, he managed to silence the whole panel on one of the talk shows by asking them to cite one single thing Obama has proposed to cut.

And the local birdcage liner puppy training device newspaper ran his article where he tells Congresscritters to call Obama's bluff by sending him a short term debt ceiling bill with a matching amount of budget cuts and let him explain to the country why he wants us to default. Or let Hairy Reed explain why the bill couldn't get through the Senate.

That would be truly popcorn worthy. Which is why teh Stoopid Party won't do it. Missed opportunity, thy name is Republican Party.

24

" I don't think voters -- especially Democrats -- really comprehend how high tax rates (on everyone, not just "the rich") would have to go up to support the current level of public spending indefinitely."

On the contrary:  they do realize -- and they do want it.   It is called socialsim.

25 I, as a Republican voter, am deliberately trying to tank the economy. I have been borrowing money since 2008, stacking it in a big pile on my lawn, and burning it. I have been going to Mcdonalds and taking 500 sauce packets and just throwing them away. At star bucks I dump out my coffee and just dump all the creamer in my cup, thus eating up their profits.

26 I keep expecting President Obama to take off his shoe and start banging it on the table, chanting, "We will break you!")

Ivan Kkhrushchev?

27

On the contrary:  they do realize -- and they do want it.   It is called socialsim.

That's what Progs want, it's not what we the people want. Poll after poll shows it, regardless of whatever The Vapid One® may say.

28

Moodys asks why have a debt ceiling at all?

Moody's Suggests US Eliminates Debt Ceiling

After all, the best way to deal with any problem is to ignore it, right?

29 On the contrary:  they do realize -- and they do want it.   It is called socialsim.

I don't think most Democrat voters are socialists- or, at least, they don't realize they are.  They just have connected any Washington policies directly with their own pocketbooks.

To illustrate, my brother (an Assistant Principle at a HS here in the area) was incensed when the Texas legislature cut education spending (along with a bunch of other things) to balance the budget.  It really made him angry- he believes the talk of Democrats that other things are less important, or we could just raid the "Rainy Day" fund, or whatever.

However, the minute you get him talking about ways to make money, or about how much of his paycheck he doesn't get because of x, y, or z, he gets upset about that, too.  He's got a Master's Degree, and he taught Math (indeed, was regarded as a teacher who could save students otherwise thought unsalvageable) prior to becoming an AP.  Yet, somehow, he hasn't connected the two.

Now, this is -obviously- anecdotal, and therefore not statistically significant, but I believe this situation, or something very like it, is the reason most people who vote Democrat vote Democrat.  The problem is that they're too absorbed in wanting to have and eat their cake to notice how far to the left those actually involved in politics and policy are trying to move the nation.

30 Only slightly off topic:  Anyone else hear the NPR story about how it was FDR's spending cuts that caused the great depression? 

31 Posted by: Bob Saget at July 18, 2011 09:33 AM (F/4zf)

Please tell me you're kidding.  My brain shouldn't hurt this much this early on a Monday.

32 What's the magic 8 ball say about King Putt's stunning personal announcement to be made today?

Posted by: The Donkey Show at July 18, 2011 09:14 AM (ijjAe)

The magic 8 balls says 'my gawd you people are stupid...we said PERSONNEL...not personal...sheesh'.

33 33 Only slightly off topic:  Anyone else hear the NPR story about how it was FDR's spending cuts that caused the great depression? 
Keefums (or some other dumbass liberal BIRM prog) tried to link the "relapse" in 1936 to FDR's spending plans not being ambitious enough. 

34 Like I always say, NPR is hilariously stupid.  They are trying to sell the idea that cutting spending and reducing debt when the economy is weak is a mistake that FDR already made.

35 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 09:33 AM (8y9MW)

I've met college-level Econ profs who had the same level of cognitive dissonance. I think the problem is that they, like most people, don't connect abstract principles to their own personal lives. Everyone thinks they're immune somehow from market forces -- and this tendency is extreme in the educational system, where tenure, unionization, and public-funded pensions create an impermeable bubble of entitlement.

Academics always have the hardest time adjusting to "the real world" because they've never had to deal with it, as a rule -- they went from being a student to being a Master's candidate, to being a PhD, to being a postdoc, to being an adjunct, to being (if they're lucky) a tenured member of the staff. They have no idea how the private sector works, or even the economy in any fundamental sense.

If you want to see a human being in pure misery and completely adrift with no prospects, just look at some late-30's adjunct who was denied tenure.

36 They are trying to sell the idea that cutting spending and reducing debt when the economy is weak is a mistake that FDR already made.

Okay, note to Liberals: when you're trying to explain how the world doesn't actually work the way it's always been observed to work, you're on the wrong side.

37 There's plenty of blame to go around.

I hate it when we cede ground to the commies with statements like that. The current depression was caused entirely by the government, and almost 99% by the Democrat side of the government at that. We constantly hear about Wall Street fat cats but in point of fact any action we had on Wall Street was in response to government policy. Te Democrats OWN this depression, lock stock and mortgaged barrel.

The current depression owes its roots to government policy, some of which goes all the way back to the last depression and Franklin son-of-a-bitch Roosevelt.

As I said yesterday, I have been reading New Deal Or Raw Deal and the stuff that is in that book will really piss you off. As bad a Obama is he is yet to hold a candle to Roosevelt and the crooked communist crap he pulled.

At least Obama hasn't sicked the IRS on anyone yet and sent them to jail for 3 years for publishing a newspaper article attacking him.....yet.

Of course, none of the newspapers ever attack him. I guess they learned that lesson.  

38 Posted by: Monty at July 18, 2011 09:39 AM (/0a60)

Sadly, I've observed the same thing.  What drives me nuts is how together they can have all the rest of their crap.  It's only on fiscal issues where they get so screwed up.

Or, rather, the intersection of fiscal and social issues.  They have no problem cutting "subsidies" or defense spending, but the moment you want to take away funding for any social issue (planned parenthood, education, a few others) they start screaming about how that's the government's job.  Similarly, they have no problem condemning abortion, or complaining about bad teachers and the state of education- but can't see that supporting PP and the current Government Education monopoly is only making those issues worse.

It's really freaking weird to me.

39 I've said it before and I'll say it again, you want to get at least teens back to work so maybe they'll have something to do other than flash mobbing stores, a serious look needs to be taken at rolling the fed. min. wage back to 2006 levels. Not an end-all solution to our situation by any means but it would help small biz to not have to be forced to pay higher wages than they had to a couple of years ago.

40 #33 Like most things Gramscian: throughout NPR's existence its wildly swerving train of thought did at one point flirt with coherence, this brief encounter was more likely a chance event rather than a result of even rudimentary lucidity.

41

I think the problem is that they, like most people, don't connect abstract principles to their own personal lives.

This.

We "real world folk," OTOH, tend to look at our own lives and try to comprehend what the hell the elites see in those abstract principles that they're currently ramming down our throats, like One World Government and the global economy baloney. They don't work, they never have and they never will, but still they persist in trying them.

42 33: No. Are you yanking my chain or is this an actual grain of sanity from NPR? Not to worry that libs are coming to their senses in droves though. Friday at work one of them was expounding on how we are not in a recession because Costco et al are still full of "stuff." Unlike Poland under the Nazi occupation or poor countries today. Well I can't argue directly with this type so I said, "Yes, poor people in this country are FAT and they can buy the latest sports star tennis shoes and probably have a flat screen tv, and people who actually work often can't afford that stuff -it is just ridiculous" He stuttered something about the poor don't have that much but americans in general sure have excess consumption. Stupid Sierra club groupie.

43 I hate it when we cede ground to the commies with statements like that.

Credit where credit is due, Vic: Wall Street came up with CDS and the idea of "securitizing" subprime mortgage loans, not Washington. The ratings agencies rated this bullshit paper at triple-A all on their own, not by government decree. No one forced AIG to issue tons of CDS against those bullshit bonds, nor investment banks like Lehman to overleverage with it. There was plenty of private-sector fuckery going on, don't kid yourself.

Like I said: there's plenty of blame to go around.

44 #42, The teens flash mob robbing stores never worked, their parents (using the term loosely here) never worked, no did their grandparents, and so on. That's a big part of the problem!

45 We constantly hear about Wall Street fat cats but in point of fact any action we had on Wall Street was in response to government policy.

Sad fact is, that's not entirely true.  Yes, Government mandates, subsidies, and coercion started the thing going, but once banks saw the kind of money they were making (and thought they could protect through extremely complicated default swaps and such) they got greedy- not normal, "I'm a capitalist and I'm going to do everything I ethically can to get ahead" greedy, but "Hey, the Government can't possibly police us all, so this unethical and probably illegal thing I want to do won't get caught until I've already got mine and live like a king in some country without an extradition treaty" greedy.

46

*rubbing temples*  My brain hurts.  The lefty stupid is strong today.  Someone tell me a piece of GOOD news? 

47

The blogs are still full of morons shouting that corporations should be forced to hire people with the 'billions' that they are sitting on. Of course they also rant that the 'rich' should pay their fair share.

I am stunned by the wealth of ecoomic ignorance spewed across the blogoshpere. There appears to be a whole segment of the public so maliciously maleducated by our public school system that it is no wonder we have developed a Cargo Cult society. No country ever taxed it way to wealth. No society grew its wealth by stealing it from successful people and bribing the lazy, stupid, and incompetent's votes with it.

At the very least these morons need to read Aesop's Fable of the Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs. For many it will still not light the torch of intelligence, but one can hope.

48

...a serious look needs to be taken at rolling the fed. min. wage back to 2006 levels.

Dunno how effective that'd be, ArcadeHero. There would be relief w.r.t. wages with your scheme, but what of the upcoming oblammocare regs looming that are going to cause employee costs for businesses to skyrocket? 

Don't profess to know the specifics on the unconstitutional healthcare law- are P.T. employees part of it, and/or do P.T. employees count in the tally of 50 employed that triggers oblammocare?  

49 They have no idea how the private sector works, or even the economy in any fundamental sense Neither do they have any interest. Because their money comes from the government's magic stash of bottomless cash. The only thing they understand is that their school receives X dollars per student, but that's where the analysis stops. It becomes a zero-sum fight over headcount, because the more students you keep, the more money in your budget. It's really not a mystery why pubic school teachers hate the idea of vouchers. It's also why kids that deal dope, commit rapes and assaults and carry weapons to school are classified as "special needs." That's right, the gangbanger who threw Mr. Pendergast down the stairs has emotional "special needs." Because while we might frown on his behavior, we're not willing to expel him. Can't risk dropping headcount and missing out on that sweet, sweet cash.

50 Posted by: MWR at July 18, 2011 09:47 AM (4df7R)

A little girl (not even a year old, I think) related to one of our elders at church has largely been cured of kidney cancer and got to go home last week.  The surgery to remove the tumor was near-miraculously successful and they'll only be giving her a couple more courses of chemo to reduce the chances of relapse.

Is that the kind of good news you wanted?

51 45,33: Oops (my mind skipped the CUTS) when I first read that at 33 and I thought the OP said NPR had a story that FDRs spending worsened the depression) I should have known NPR would not be sensible.

52 45 33: No. Are you yanking my chain or is this an actual grain of sanity from NPR?

Either I'm misreading it or you are.

53

Wall Street came up with CDS and the idea of "securitizing" subprime mortgage loans, not Washington.

From what I've been able to discover, the whole mess started with the Community Redevelopment Act from Carter, altered by Bill Cliton in '96 in that infamous photo with Cloward and Piven standing behind him at the signing ceremony.

54

If you want to see a human being in pure misery and completely adrift with no prospects, just look at some late-30's adjunct who was denied tenure.

Yup.  I take great glee in pointing out to lefty academics that their lofty disdain for the private sector and that oh so declasse struggle and fight to succeed ignores the fact that there is no market redder in tooth and claw than academia.  Then, just for giggles, I'll bring up the whole using TAs to teach while paying them less than minimum wage without providing health insurance and refusing to let them unionize.  Oh their hatred, it keeps me warm. 

Insty's been pointing out that the current crop of Our Betters got where they are by being able to spew back the popular ideology of the moment.  Of course they can't think creatively, that was never rewarded.   

55 37 Like I always say, NPR is hilariously stupid.  They are trying to sell the idea that cutting spending and reducing debt when the economy is weak is a mistake that FDR already made.

The WaPo was using the same lines about cutting spending (though generically) over the weekend.

56

It's a good time to read, or re-read, Henry Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson" (pdf). The classic, written in 1946, describes a dozen popular economic fallacies and their practical consequences. A must-read.

From the chapter, Tax Discourages Production: "People begin to ask themselves why they should work...10 months of the year for the government and only...two months for themselves and their family."

57 Credit where credit is due, Vic: Wall Street came up with CDS and the idea of "securitizing" subprime mortgage loans, not Washington.

I thought that came out of F&F which you may as well say the government.

"I'm a capitalist and I'm going to do everything I ethically can to get ahead" greedy, but "Hey, the Government can't possibly police us all, so this unethical and probably illegal thing I want to do won't get caught until I've already got mine and live like a king in some country without an extradition treaty" greedy.

I totally disagree. If we killed every government agency that supposedly "polices" Wall Street and left it entirely up to common law fraud statutes we would be much better off.

58

@2 Gault Falcon at July 18, 2011 09:10 AM

Actually the Second Amendment is not about 'gun rights', it is about the right of self defense which stems from the rights of "...life, liberty, ..." and the responsibility to defend the country. Because of the right of self defense stemming from the rights of life and liberty we are granted the "right" to keep and bear arms to be able to exercise our right to self defense. In point of fact the article clearly indicates that this is an example of a priviledge misnamed a right. Apparently you missed the point.

59 Posted by: BackwardsBoy at July 18, 2011 09:51 AM (d0Tfm)

CRA primed the pump, so to speak, but Wall Street beat a path to the well. No one said "no", or chose to challenge Uncle Sugar in any way. In fact, Wall Street and the banks came up with many ways to juice profits from adhering to the CRA (ever wonder why your mortgage is sold two or three times rather than being held by the bank that issued it?).

You can argue that the private sector was just responding to public-sector stimuli, but this doesn't excuse bad behavior in the finance and real-estate sectors. They knew that what they were doing was madness, but they did it anyway.

But in the private sector, bad actors like Lehman are out of business or sold off. In the public-sector, malefactors like Fannie Mae just keep on keepin' on. That is the major difference between the public sector and the private sector: it's not that the private sector is more moral; it's that they bear the consequences of their mistakes and misdeeds. The market always takes its revenge, in one way or another.

60 @ 57 Nice. Is your penchant for ball-punching just because you're short and it's a convenient target, or do you just like to see lefty misery?

61

The ratings agencies rated this bullshit paper at triple-A all on their own, not by government decree.

Monty, this is something that's bothered me for ages and mayhap you can use the puppets to explain it to me.  Did the rating agencies not have access to the underlying data showing to whom the mortgage were made or were the agencies relying on the governmental backstop to presume lack of default?  Or were they just smoking the monkey crack?  Also, I guess I should throw stupidity and greed in the mix as well.  It just seems completely and utterly idiotic to rate paper that should have been obviously toxic at AAA levels. 

62 Just sharing some conversations that I had over the weekend:

1. Very well educated, Degree Holding neighbor, currently unemployed shares two hours of conversation on front porch about the state of economy.
Opening gambit is that it's awful that Republicans won't raise Debt limit, as it will solve problems.
My reply is to recount her own financial difficulties with raising a son, and balancing her cash in with her cash out. To her credit, she had made very sound decisions to reduce and prioritize her debts over the years. I asked her why she didn't just put her expenses on her credit cards, max them out, and then ask for an increase in her credit limit, allowing her to place more debt on her credit cards. She explained that it would be a death spiral as both the increased debt, and the increased interest payments would eventually consume so much of her available income that she would not survive. She was able to reduce cash outlay by doing away with non-essential items, and ensuring that what she did purchase represented best value for her money. I was finally able to get her to relate those same principals to the Federal government.

2. Mother in Law relates that companies moving business out of country are killing the nation, and all companies are evil.
I used the example of her own company, asking what would be a fair wage to be paid for the type of clerical work she does. Her response was based on how much she needed in hourly wages to make financial ends meet. I explained that I wasn't interested in how much she needed to live, I was interested in what the fair hourly rate should be for the skills required to perform her job.
Finally settled on about $15.00 an hour.
Then I asked her what the company should do if all the employees got together and demanded a raise to $35.00 an hour. Her response was that the company wouldn't last long.
The light bulb didn't even flicker.

63 Posted by: Vic at July 18, 2011 09:56 AM (M9Ie6)

You're allowed to disagree.  You're just also wrong.  I have very strong ties (personally) to the financial sector (father is a banker, close family friend in mortgages, etc.) and know what I'm talking about here.

A lot of things the big banks were doing were flat-out illegal, and they were doing them only because they thought they wouldn't get caught (and they didn't, by the government- only by reality).

This is why I am so opposed to Frank-Dodd, why I hate Sarbanes-Oxley, and a whole host of other things.

I do agree with you that we could get rid of a lot of the regs, but that's only because they're redundant anyway- we already have laws on the books against fraud and embezzlement, we don't need more.  But bankers- especially high-up execs in large, National banks, have a higher-than-average rate of corruption than anybody except lawyers and politicians.

64 Monty, this is something that's bothered me for ages and mayhap you can use the puppets to explain it to me.  Did the rating agencies not have access to the underlying data showing to whom the mortgage were made or were the agencies relying on the governmental backstop to presume lack of default?

The rating agencies were co-opted by the government long ago when the government decided they needed to be "regulated". In short, they are not worth a shit and you can not believe a single thing they say. ENRON should have dispelled any doubt on that matter.

65 I do agree with you that we could get rid of a lot of the regs, but that's only because they're redundant anyway- we already have laws on the books against fraud and embezzlement, we don't need more.  But bankers- especially high-up execs in large, National banks, have a higher-than-average rate of corruption than anybody except lawyers and politicians.

If we have all of these laws on the books, then why aren't these bankers in jail then?

66 Posted by: Vic at July 18, 2011 10:05 AM (M9Ie6)

See also: Corruption.

67 See also: Corruption.

See also: Government; i.e. American System. This shit has been with us since the days of John Adams. It only exploded with FDR.

68

Saw a guy named Sean Egan on CNBC this morning ... he's so gloomy about the world financial situation he makes Monty look like Pollyanna.  (Will post a link when I find it, but last I checked CNBC hadn't put the interview with Egan online.)  Coupla takeaways, working from memory here: Greece, Ireland, and Portugal cannot possibly pay their debts, and current debtholders will take haircuts of 90%, 70%, and 70% respectively on the bonds they hold; European banks will need to be backstopped by their governments, but said governments don't have the needed capital to do so ... so the Fed will end up as the backstop of last resort; CNBC anchor: so you're talking about Armageddon here  Egan: Yes  Anchor: so what should people invest in?  Egan (somewhat offended by the question): Money managers are smart - let them figure it out

Piping hot Doom!, fresh off the wires

Posted by: crisis du jour at July 18, 2011 09:17 AM (J1eJz)

Sean Egan owns an upstart credit rating agency in my neck of the woods.  He has been calling bullshit on the big agencies for years, to little attention.  Very smart dude.

69 Posted by: alexthechick at July 18, 2011 09:59 AM (VtjlW)

You need to remember one primary thing about the Big Three -- they are not truly independent entities any more. They are heavily regulated by the government, who has bestowed a virtual monopoly on them (ever wonder why only Moody's, Fitch, and S&P play in that market?). When they started paying close attention to sovereign debt issues, their ratings became politicized and hence dependent on politics and PR as much as finance. (That's how Greece could maintain a high investment grade on their bonds clear into 2010.)

Ratings agencies also don't draw top-drawer financial talent. They get the C students from Stern, Wharton, and Harvard who couldn't land a top job at an investment house but don't want to work for the government. They're not the brightest bulbs in the financial world. They are cautious, hesitant, and in thrall to the very entities they are supposed to be rating (especially the US Government). For a long this lack of aggressiveness was considered to be "prudence", but in the subprime meltdown it was exposed for what it was: simple timidity. They didn't want to rock the boat, make enemies, or -- let's be honest -- lose out on any fees.

The increased willingness of the Big Three in recent months to downgrade sovereign debt is evidence of their embarassment at having been caught out. They are, at long last, doing the job they were supposed to be doing all along. But they are in my view mortally wounded by the heavy governmental hand they labor under -- they can't be honest about sovereign debt because it's a political issue and not a financial one. US debt should not be triple-A, yet they still rate it as such because...well, because they don't want to make Uncle Sam angry.

So an investor has to wonder what purpose their rating serves when everyone knows the rating is bullshit...including the people who issue it!

70 Posted by: Vic at July 18, 2011 10:05 AM (M9Ie6)

More seriously- I don't know, neither does any of my personal circle who are deeply involved in that world.  They all agree that- based on facts currently in evidence- there should be no doubt that much of went on just prior to 2008 (and some since) is flat-out illegal and people should be in jail.  They're scratching their heads as to why the FDIC isn't coming down like a 2000lb. of rectangular building things on those banks and their execs (who, by law, can be held personally liable).

Which is why I go to: corruption.  Not even necessarily in the "bribe" sense.  We all know that the FDIC was strapped in 2009, and only a little less so in 2010.  I suspect that if any (let alone more than one) of the Big Banks fell, the FDIC wouldn't be able to cover those losses- and those banks are way too big for anyone else to buy, so the FDIC would be on the hook for all of those deposits.  Add to that the fact that FDIC insurance now covers more than twice what it once did, and you can see why the FDIC would be rather slow to start those particular dominoes falling.

71 I heard this weekend that the amount of "off-shore accounts" totals over $3 trillion.  Does that sound about right?

72 68 If we have all of these laws on the books, then why aren't these bankers in jail then?

Largely due to little to no enforcement of these laws and a corrupt legal system.

73 Posted by: Monty at July 18, 2011 10:09 AM (/0a60)

LOL, damn Monty we do agree on a lot of things!

74 My new strategy to tank the economy is to buy shirts on clearance from Macys, take them home and cut a hole in them, and then return them. Once I tank Macys, this economy will really be sabotaged.

75 Anyone out there able to point me to some info on the costs of tax compliance for companies small and large?  I'm becoming curious exactly how much is being blown just figuring what an enterprise's tax liability is...

76

They knew that what they were doing was madness, but they did it anyway.

Monty

That sorta proves my point that the banks, faced as they were with this grand and glorious New Mandate from the Central Committee that they grant loans to those who couldn't previously meet the standards for home ownership, really had no choice but to get *ahem* creative in their quest to make money from them.

 

77 Posted by: Vic at July 18, 2011 10:05 AM (M9Ie6)

See also: Corruption.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 10:06 AM (8y9MW)

See also: Lawyer/Politicians

78

In other words, to me it looks like this.

1. Community Redevelopment Act (the Cause)

2. Wall Street's grasping to make money while still complying with a bad law (the Effect)

3. Profit? (Yup, but not for long, hence our present situation. They knew it couldn't last.)

79 That sorta proves my point that the banks, faced as they were with this grand and glorious New Mandate from the Central Committee that they grant loans to those who couldn't previously meet the standards for home ownership, really had no choice but to get *ahem* creative in their quest to make money from them.

The problem with this formulation is that almost no banks complained, even in private. No sober banker in a grey suit stood up to object that lending standards exist for a reason, and that loaning money to people who couldn't pay it back was just stupid. Banks and other lenders actively collaborated in this mess -- they could have objected, and refused to lower their lending standards, but they didn't.

And of course by the time the ball was really rolling (the mid-1990's), the Fannie/Freddie machine was kicking into high gear and the money was gushing and no one wanted to miss out.

80

You're confusing "privileges" with "entitlements."

A driver's license is a privilege.

Medicare Part A is an entitlement.

Free speech is a right.

Healthcare is a service.

81

#79 that's basically right.  The CDOs and CDO-squareds and the credit default swaps exploded as the banks tried to keep the merry-go-round from stopping due to what they knew was rapily declining credit quality in the underlying loans.  I worked for a very large mortgage lender at the time and we spent most of 2005 and 2006 saying, "WTF is going on" as we all had expected a significant market slowdown in those years, because the Fed was ratcheting up interest rates.  It should never have made sense to regulators or investors that originations could keep increasing as rates rose.  But the Wall Street guys just got really greedy, they figured out ways to keep the profits rolling in and the lenders figured out ways to keep making loans to sell to them.  Until they couldn't. 

 

82 The light bulb didn't even flicker.

I had similar a conversation recently, specifically with a woman who insisted that schools had to provide breakfast because many parents didn't have food in the house but 5 minutes later insisted that her property taxes should be lowered, not because the value of her house has declined but just because taxes are too high. Connect the dots is a game for children, I guess.

83

Nice. Is your penchant for ball-punching just because you're short and it's a convenient target, or do you just like to see lefty misery?

Little from column a, little from column b.  Lefty tears make a nice between souls snack. 

Monty - thanks. I'd forgotten to factor regulatory capture into the equation.  And I cannot be the only one who has noticed that all of these laws and regs designed to make things more transparent have resulted only in greater obfuscation. 

84 Yup.  I take great glee in pointing out to lefty academics that their lofty disdain for the private sector and that oh so declasse struggle and fight to succeed ignores the fact that there is no market redder in tooth and claw than academia.  Then, just for giggles, I'll bring up the whole using TAs to teach while paying them less than minimum wage without providing health insurance and refusing to let them unionize.  Oh their hatred, it keeps me warm. 

Insty's been pointing out that the current crop of Our Betters got where they are by being able to spew back the popular ideology of the moment.  Of course they can't think creatively, that was never rewarded.   

Posted by: alexthechick at July 18, 2011 09:53 AM (VtjlW)

I love it when you talk dirty like that.

85 Posted by: Monty at July 18, 2011 10:21 AM (/0a60)

Incorrect.  No Bank Executives complained.  Plenty of Bankers did.  The problem there is that, for the most part, Bank Executives are not actually Bankers.  They (too often) see the Bank like any other corporation.  To some extent that's true, but the unique situation of banks (for instance, the fact they see taking in money {deposits} as a liability and paying money {making loans} as an asset) means they have to be handled very differently.  Also, where any other business might survive a year or three taking losses, any bank that takes even one year of losses is almost certainly out of business before that year is up.

Since many of the Executives don't completely understand that (it is kind of counter intuitive to think of the risky side of your business as the part you want more of), they look at balance sheets and such and think "what can we do to maximize the black ink?" when what really needs to happen is a steady growth on both sides of the ledger with the assets only slowly outpacing liabilities.

Since the Execs are the ones with voices, the actual bankers who understood all that were often ignored.

86

My disdain for the CRA stems from the approach: while it's noble to want every American to own a home, the CRA forced banks to make bad loans instead of doing it the old fashioned way by making sure we have a robust economy with plenty of employment diversity for folks of varying skills, and a career ladder to climb.

87 Posted by: BackwardsBoy at July 18, 2011 10:28 AM (d0Tfm)

Many of this nation's problems in many sectors came from confusing "correlation" and "causation."

88 I believe that if congress were to come up with a little remedial training to teach the members of congress the meaning of a few common words and concepts like: fair, share, invest (as opposed to raise taxes), pay for (as opposed to not lower taxes), honor (as opposed to lying about every f--king thing), that this simple solution would go along way towards solving the jam this country finds itself in.

89 The problem with this formulation is that almost no banks complained, even in private.

I don't know how any of us would ever know if they are complaining in private or not. But as I am learning in the book I referenced earlier I suspect that buisness leaders learned in the 30s that complaining in public will get you "investigated" and in jail.

This guy was no saint, but then again he wasn't a crook either.

90 The problem with this formulation is that almost no banks complained, even in private. No sober banker in a grey suit stood up to object that lending standards exist for a reason, and that loaning money to people who couldn't pay it back was just stupid. Banks and other lenders actively collaborated in this mess -- they could have objected, and refused to lower their lending standards, but they didn't.

And of course by the time the ball was really rolling (the mid-1990's), the Fannie/Freddie machine was kicking into high gear and the money was gushing and no one wanted to miss out.

Posted by: Monty

 

So who were they supposed to complain to? The government that ordered them to extend the loans, the government that expected them to "give back" or the government that regulated them and audited them? Perhaps the government that screamed at the regulator who warned Congress in testimony about the problem and was deemed a racist?

Here's a bank auditor story: My father worked as COO of a decent sized SB years ago. They had to contend with the regulation of reporting cash transactions over $10,000, which was a pain, since many businesses do these on a regalar basis. The people in DC responded as only they could. They announced a revision, where FIs could maintain a list of companies who were exempted (by them) for the reporting requirement. Of course, in the event one of the businesses turned out to be bad, the FI was to be held liable. My father was among those who advised not doing this.

When the auditors showed up, they demanded to see their list of exemptions. He explained three times that the FI decided not to exercise this, and offered to show them the meeting minutes of the board where they decided this course of policy. The twit was adamant. So my father had a secretary draw up on letterhead a beautiful document entitled "list of emepted businesses from $10,000 reporting". And he signed that blank piece of paper and ordered that it be updated and maintained.

 

That is how FIs are treated and regulated.

91 they could have objected, and refused to lower their lending standards, but they didn't.

I don't really think that's true.  I remember lots of socalled "Red-Lining" suits and threats of suits to force the banks to lend to the bad-credit risks.  They didn't want to do it but their hand was forced. 

92

Many of this nation's problems in many sectors came from confusing "correlation" and "causation."

That's a point you stress here a lot. Do you think I'm on the wrong track by blaming the CRA as the root cause? I know there's a lot to our current mess, but it had to start somewhere, and that's the point I found.

93 http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/07/17/buzz-ballad-one-month/ One Month —by the Barenaked Powergrab, with apologies to the Barenaked Ladies and "One Week" It's been one month since I said that we Faced a deadline to raise the debt ceiling Five days since we started to negotiate Your proposals were unappealing Three days since I left the room I didn't like having to answer your questions Yesterday said I'd talk to you There's a couple of trillion I'd like to borrow Come on now and hear the warning You know global warming Mandates that we convert to green jobs Though high-speed rail cannot fail, all alone it's of no avail We have to pay bad mortgages to buy votes from the mob Competing interests I play off I give them all payoffs I'm about conciliation Media has my left flank There's many to thank, they all help me get out my message They're all so willing to be shilling As I stop domestic drilling I like unions, that's why I shower them with favors They all supported Obamacare Even as they were well aware With their contributions they all would get a waiver Everything I do is rushed on a short deadline It has always worked out for me just fine I'm the kind of guy who sloughs off all his workload Can't understand what I mean? Well, you soon will I have a tendency to go out to the golf course I have a history of taking vacations It's been three years since I was sworn in As President I have never signed a budget Past a year since car companies Got bailed out by ignoring bankruptcy More than three months since I decided To go into Libya without getting a go-ahead Yesterday I said that I'd talk But you'd better be willing to give me a trillion Come on and give in 'cause Cloward Piven Is gonna change the way that you've been livin' Government whirlin' like a dervish Agency service Expands so much it makes you nervous Like FDR I've got some real big plans Like Shaft I'm the man Like Lenin, saying what is to be done Like small businesses I make jobs Okay, I don't make jobs But if I did they'd have a living wage This time jobs will be shovel-ready People will all be working steady If you just cave and give in to me on every new thing Gotta trust in me, recovery Is soon to be, it isn't me if the promises That I'm making have a false ring Everything I do is rushed on a short deadline It has always worked out for me just fine I'm the kind of guy who sloughs off all his workload Can't understand what I mean? Well, you soon will I have a tendency to go out to the golf course I have a plan that will make you lose your shirt It's been one month you've tried to buck me With spending cuts instead of raising taxes Five days since I sneered at you and said "You are the ones who put us in this deep doo-doo" Three days since the last go-round If I keep saying you're at fault, then what can you do? Yesterday said I'd talk to you There's a couple of trillion I'd like to borrow There's a couple of trillion I'd like to borrow There's a couple of trillion I'd like to borrow Obama plan, hocking tomorrow

94 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 10:28 AM (8y9MW)

I believe I should qualify my own statement by pointing out that small, local banks were by no means immune to the environment of corruption for the same reason.  Many small bank execs felt the same way the big bank execs did- you just don't hear about them because they're small potatoes.

95

After all, the best way to deal with any problem is to ignore it, right?

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at July 18, 2011 09:33 AM (9hSKh)

I actually think this would work.  For a very short period of time, and when it stopped working that would be the end.  (imio)

96 Market headed over a cliff.

97 This is the real core of our problem, well understood by Monty.

Academics always have the hardest time adjusting to "the real world" because they've never had to deal with it, as a rule -- they went from being a student to being a Master's candidate, to being a PhD, to being a postdoc, to being an adjunct, to being (if they're lucky) a tenured member of the staff. They have no idea how the private sector works, or even the economy in any fundamental sense.

Indulge me my repetitiveness--   Union members and Law professors confuse seniority and tenure with a marketable skill, a ignorant notion of which they will soon be disabused.

98 Market headed over a cliff.

Heading back to 12K again.  I think some people are getting very rich on the 12k to 12.5k oscillations.

99 Posted by: Blue Hen at July 18, 2011 10:33 AM (6rX0K)

What an incredibly illustrative Bank Auditor story.  And quite in line with how the FDIC audits (and other government agencies) work.  The thing is, the Auditor probably also thought it was stupid, but he had to check that box off of his "to-do" list and provide documentation- and meeting minutes don't constitute sufficient documentation.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at July 18, 2011 10:33 AM (d0Tfm)

Oh, no.  I was agreeing with you.  I was alluding to the fact that CRA was one of those points of confusion: people who buy houses are better off than people who don't- in the minds (for lack of a better term) of our politicians, this means home ownership causes prosperity- when, in fact, it tends to be that prosperity causes home ownership.

100 77 My new strategy to tank the economy is to buy shirts on clearance from Macys, take them home and cut a hole in them, and then return them. Once I tank Macys, this economy will really be sabotaged.
___________

Plus, you can sew the bits you cut out into an AIDS quilt and sell it on e-bay. Profit!

101 The absolute insanity of CRA is that not only is it at the damn root cause of the collapse, but the fact that it is still on the books and it is still TO THIS DAY being enforced.

This is what happens when crooks like Dodd Frank come up with the investigation and "fix" instead of being prosecuted and going to jail.

And why is not Issa investigating the shit out of this?

102 they could have objected, and refused to lower their lending standards, but they didn't.

I don't really think that's true.  I remember lots of socalled "Red-Lining" suits and threats of suits to force the banks to lend to the bad-credit risks.  They didn't want to do it but their hand was forced. 

Posted by: toby928™

 

Combine this with the ability to originate a mortgage and then sell it, package it with thousands more, and the ability to 'blend' AA mortagages with the junk and sell them and you have the perfect storm of making the bottom line, greed, political intimidation and stupidity. Some of thwe biggest hits were taken by Fis in countries that aren't alloed to write a 95 - 110% mortgage (Ireland, Germany). But they invested in the mortgage backed securities which included many of these.

Add also the fact that FIs are limited to what they ARE allowed to hold. If stuff gets downgraded, they HAVE TO unload it. So there is competition for the A grade stuff, thus creating incentive to expand that supply. When it became contaminated, hilarity ensued.

103

Oh, this is entertaining.  Your good buddy Shep Smith canÂ’t extract his head from BarryÂ’s ass.

104

Friday at work one of them was expounding on how we are not in a recession because Costco et al are still full of "stuff."

These are the same people who think, "I can't possibly be out of money, because I still have checks in the checkbook...."

105 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 10:02 AM (8y9MW)

That any people rely on any gov agency to rate or police any American business or service provider is incredible. I believe we would be best served by complete deregulation and let everyone steal - or not steal, and serve - or ill serve - their clients.
Let the market alone govern the winners and losers

106

Thanks, AllenG. I was hoping I wasn't too far off the mark in identifying a horrible piece of legislation as being the pebble in the avalanche of DOOM! that we're seeing today.

Good, now I have another thing on my list to dismantle after the Great Conservative Awakening of 2012 that puts conservatives in control of Washington for the next eight years. Some stuff to be repealed immediately if not sooner: OCare, Frank-Dodd, Porkulus, student loan takeover, and now, the CRA.

Yippee!

107 The thing is, the Auditor probably also thought it was stupid, but he had to check that box off of his "to-do" list and provide documentation- and meeting minutes don't constitute sufficient documentation.

Believe me, this is the way ALL government regulatory agencies work. The must see properly completed paper. Nothing else will work.

But no, the auditors don't think it is "stupid". Those with an IQ above that of a creosote post are quickly filtered out of government service.

108

And this maybe what Judge Napoletano is worried about.  EhÂ… Rand Corporation.

109 Oh, and the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and any other law that permits enviro-nazis to sue over some damn little critter you can't eat.

110 The real insanity about the CRA is that the strengthening of it by Bill Clinton was based on a study of lending discrimination by the Boston Fed which has since been thoroughly discredited.  That study landed like a bomb in the middle of the banking and policy world in the early 1990s.  And it was almost complete bullshit, based on incomplete data and bad modeling.  Thus was sown the initial seeds of the subprime lending boom and bust of the 2000s.

111 The real insanity about the CRA is that the strengthening of it by Bill Clinton was based on a study of lending discrimination by the Boston Fed which has since been thoroughly discredited.

Hell not only was it discredited, but it was discredited BEFORE they passed the legislation enabling CRA to begin with.

112

These are the same people who think, "I can't possibly be out of money, because I still have checks in the checkbook...."

True story:  The Good Ex-Boyfriend is an actual, honest to cthulhu genius.  We're talking off the charts IQ.  He could not, for the life of him, understand the concept that checks take time to clear and the bank did not magically know when I wrote a check.  So he would go to the atm, check the balance and then withdraw money because it said there was money there!  It was very hard to yell at him properly because he was so proud that he thought to check the available balance first. 

113 Posted by: Vic at July 18, 2011 10:45 AM (M9Ie6)

Well, yes, they are.  But many of those are in the FDIC.  Very few FDIC auditors stay auditors for very long.  They either become actual bankers (often compliance officers or cashiers (which is a big title in a bank)), or they move very quickly up the chain before they can do any "damage" to the government's scheme.

In point of fact, my dad was an Auditor for a few years before he became the head cashier of a State Bank here in Texas (sold about 11 or 12 years ago to Norwest/Wells Fargo).  Now, he works as an internal auditor for a National Bank holding company out of Abilene.

114

Posted by: rockmom at July 18, 2011 10:47 AM (lSyyU)

Oooh, that's more good stuff. You may just force me to do some of that exhaustive Interwebs research consisting of five minutes on Bing. Thanks.

It's also worth remembering who used to work for ACORN suing or threatening banks with a suit because of the CRA.

You'll never guess who it is. Never ever in a million years.

115 I know it's been commented on, but:

Seething.  Yep, thatÂ’s the word IÂ’m searching for.  In my mind, I see them seething, wreathing on the ground, mumbling incoherently – seething.  

G-d how I do love this feeling.

116 You'll never guess who it is. Never ever in a million years.

Does his name start with an "O"?

117 "I don't think voters -- especially Democrats -- really comprehend how high tax rates (on everyone, not just "the rich") would have to go up to support the current level of public spending indefinitely."

If Republicans really care about "not leaving our grandchildren burdened with unsustainable debt", then you should all be willing to pony up some and pay for the 10 year GOP drunken spending spree now.

118 pay for the 10 year GOP drunken spending spree now

Seriously?  That's the best you've got.  Obama and his Democrat cronies have raised the deficit more than all the previous Presidents combined, and you're still complaining about the fact that two (only two, then, remember?  Now we're up to 3, or is it 4?  I've lost count.) wars cost a lot of money?

119 Posted by: alexthechick at July 18, 2011 10:50 AM (VtjlW)

The same problem applies on a much larger scale to people who don't want to count pension obligations as "debt". After all, they don't have to send out checks yet, so why should the obligation show up on their balance sheet as a liability?

120 If Republicans really care about "not leaving our grandchildren burdened with unsustainable debt", then you should all be willing to pony up some and pay for the 10 year GOP drunken spending spree now.

Posted by: JEA

Please document how this last 10 year span is the result of  a "GOP spree" . I'll give you a pass on the drunken part. Otherwise, fuck off.

121 Angela Merkel has some nice cans.  Barry likey!

122 What could spell DOOM more than the fact that:

Lady Gaga is no longer No. 1?

123 105 If Issa goes after Frank and his co-conspirators he will be hit with the 40,000lb shithammer of MSM Death.

124

If Republicans really care about "not leaving our grandchildren burdened with unsustainable debt", then you should all be willing to pony up some and pay for the 10 year GOP drunken spending spree now.

Done.  As lone as you and your libtard friends pony up for Obama's tripled deficit.

125

Lady Gaga is no longer No. 1?

 

No worries.  I'm going to appear on MNBC with a dildo strapped to my head.  That'll boost my popularity!

126

Lady Gaga is no longer No. 1?

 

No worries.  I'm going to appear on MNBC with a dildo strapped to my head.  That'll boost my popularity!

Posted by: Lady GagMe

 

Please specify the time, lest we mistake you for Chris Matthews.

127 James O'Keefe of ACORN PIMP SUIT fame has infiltrated MEDICAID....developing.....

128 I think it's wonderful that JEA is coming out against government spending and favors cuts. He's also against the stimulus and the two rounds of quantitative easing. Hey, welcome to the team, bitch! We could always use a few more fiscal conservatives.

129 JEA, how come Pelsoi and the Democrats didn't raise taxes to pay for Bush's spending spree after they took over Congress in 2006?  Or after Obama became President and they controlled eveything in 2009?  How come they passed a trillion-dollar stimulus in 2009 and a trillion-dollar health care takeover in 2010 that weren't paid for with higher taxes?  How come they extended the "Bush tax cuts" when they still had control of Congress in 2010?

130 "really care"   What a Liberal horseshit concept.

131

Please specify the time, lest we mistake you for Chris Matthews.

 

 

No chance.  The dildo is always in my mouth, not mounted on my head.

132

If Republicans really care about "not leaving our grandchildren burdened with unsustainable debt", then you should all be willing to pony up some and pay for the 10 year GOP drunken spending spree now.

I'd happily pay 1 dollar more in taxes for every 5 dollars cut from government spending on items that were not enumerated to be in the purview of the legislature or executive branches.

Dealsies?

133 One of the wonders of modern life is how that jackass Chris Matthews remains employed.

134

Now hereÂ’s some DOOM! you can really sink your teeth into!

135

Lady Gaga is no longer No. 1?

 

No worries.  I'm going to appear on MNBC with a dildo strapped to my head.  That'll boost my popularity!

Posted by: Lady GagMe

 

Or,

Tragedy struck the MSNBC set today, in the aftermath of an on-air incident involving the world famous....'entertainer' and MSNBC's own Rachel Maddow. The set director reported, " things were going fine, once we figured out which bathroom our guest could use (all of them. Simultaneously.). Then Mr Ms Maddow entered the area, and something just seemed to cause her to accost  our guest. I'll never forget her cries of , I'm riding the range tonight!!!" MSNBC stated that counselors would be made available to all staff present.

136 My Magic 8 Ball says "Drew M is a douche".  What does that mean?

137 140 My Magic 8 Ball says "Drew M is a douche".  What does that mean?
      Ask again later.

138 Here's my new bumper sticker:

Ask Yourself:  Isn't It Really Time For the Kids and the Old People To Die?

139

Does his name start with an "O"?

Shazbot!

You're good.

140 H/T to Zero Hedge:  Meanwhile, in China, the natives are restless.  And they have a lotta natives.

This is why I can't take the whole 'Chinese Century' scenario seriously in the slightest, aside from assidiously apt alliteration.  They took our house of cards, cranked it up past 11, and don't even have the rudimentary transparency we manage to force here.  When that collapses, it's going to be ugly.

141

H/T to Zero Hedge

That site is getting tough to read anymore. It's dripping with Jew hatred, and I'm not talking about policy differences with Israel, but old fashioned middle ages and 20th century jew hatred.

 

142

The same problem applies on a much larger scale to people who don't want to count pension obligations as "debt". After all, they don't have to send out checks yet, so why should the obligation show up on their balance sheet as a liability?

I don't get that at all.  I don't even pretend to understand accounting but I know enough to know that there must be an accounting for future obligation, at least in some fashion.  I was unaware that lalalala look a unicorn! was accepted accounting practice.

 

143 It was very hard to yell at him properly because he was so proud that he thought to check the available balance first. 

Posted by: alexthechick at July 18, 2011 10:50 AM (VtjlW)

I wonder if there's an analogy there to entitlement obligations?

Nah, cause the pols spending money don't really care about the consequences.

144

Nah, cause the pols spending money don't really care about the consequences.

 

 

Pfft!  Consequences are for the little people.

145 Actually, I thought gaga regained her #1 spot with a 99 cent sale for her latest album.

146

Andrew McCarthy takes McCain to the woodshed over his attack on Michelle Bachmann

And I do mean takes him to the woodshed. He even blames McCain for Obama and his communist shit.

147 It was very hard to yell at him properly because he was so proud that he thought to check the available balance first. 

Posted by: alexthechick at July 18, 2011 10:50 AM (VtjlW)

I wonder if there's an analogy there to entitlement obligations?

Nah, cause the pols spending money don't really care about the consequences.

Posted by: Randy M

 

If we wish to understand why bankers wrote and then sold off mortgages that they knew were shaky during an up market, all we need to do is look at politicians tat vote for one increase or sweetheart deal (double duipping, sick pay schemes) that curent taxation levels couldn't possible sustain.

Indeed, the bankers could at least point out how the mortgage failure rate was excepttionally low during the up times, and was concentrated in several large areas (S. CA, FL) for the first part of the crisis. The length and depth of the recession, coupled with the massive losses in unemployment flushed out most of them.

Local governemtns can't claim this. Many are already under-contributing, and are still hard pressed to meet obligations.

148 I was unaware that lalalala look a unicorn! was accepted accounting practice.

The GASB rules are changing, and it's scaring the crap out of states and municipalities who will (at long last) have to account for their massive (and mostly unfunded) promises to their employees. But the bitter irony is that even if the GASB standards are "accepted" by the various governments, they will not be enforced...because enforcement of these more rigorous rules would immediately bankrupt hundreds if not thousands of municipalities nationwide.

So you have the Kafkaesque situation where standards are "accepted" by all entities as being rational and prudent...but no one will actually implement them because it would mean financial ruin.

The actuarial and accounting trades at the government level are like Bizarro World versions of the real thing, I shit you not.

149 Actually, I thought gaga regained her #1 spot with a 99 cent sale for her latest album.

Posted by: cherry ð

Call me a fub if you will, but I don't wanna know what his/her/its #1 spot is.

150

H/T to Zero Hedge

That site is getting tough to read anymore. It's dripping with Jew hatred, and I'm not talking about policy differences with Israel, but old fashioned middle ages and 20th century jew hatred.

 Posted by: Ben at July 18, 2011 11:15 AM (wuv1c)

I don't read ZH except thru re-directs from AoS.

151 132 I think it's wonderful that JEA is coming out against government spending and favors cuts. He's also against the stimulus and the two rounds of quantitative easing.

Note the conditional "if". He's more likely coming out in favor of fiscal child abuse.

152 I just had a thought (I know, dangerous)

We keep hearing the administration and its shills pointing out that income tax is only projected to provide 14.5% of GDP, or whatever.  They use this statistic to say that "the rich" should pay more than 35% of their income (that is, more than 1/3 of their labor should be used to enrich the government) in taxes.

Here is a question I haven't heard asked:  If the average income tax revenue per year has been around 19% for the last 60 years or so, and if the income tax rates haven't changed significantly in the last 12 years or so, why are receipts down so far?

As I see it, there are three possible culprits:
1) Eeeeevillll Corporations and Rich people are hiding their wealth.
2) Tax rates were always too low, we were just riding "the bubble" until 2008.
3) There aren't enough tax payers.

Now, #1 is stupid, but many of them believe that.  So we must ask- how did they get so much better at it in just 4 years' time?  They weren't doing that well prior to 2008.

#2 is even more stupid- but some of them believe that, too- of course the correct follow-up to that, then, is "So how much of my wealth would you like to confiscate?"

#3 is probably correct- At which point we should be asking, "So why don't we make it easier on businesses (reduce regs and such) so they can feel confident in growing, and why don't we make sure than anyone that makes an income has to "get in the game" by paying taxes on that income?  Wouldn't both of those expand the tax base and therefore reduce the deficit?"

Now, I know most of the Morons get this, but I'm wondering why I'm not hearing it more from the Pundit and Political classes.

153 I don't see what the taxpayers are complaining about. Your half way out:

http://tinyurl.com/4x4f5uf

154 Andrew McCarthy takes McCain to the woodshed over his attack on Michelle Bachmann And I do mean takes him to the woodshed. He even blames McCain for Obama and his communist shit. Posted by: Vic at July 18, 2011 11:19 AM (M9Ie6) I tip my hat to McCain for his service, but he has long ago wore out that. I gots no use for the guy anymore and he should go and shut up.

155 Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 18, 2011 11:25 AM (i6RpT)

I will never give up my gratitude for his service- but that doesn't mean I want him in government.  Just because you were in the military and served honorably doesn't make you someone I want leading this country.

156 If we wish to understand why bankers wrote and then sold off mortgages that they knew were shaky during an up market, all we need to do is look at politicians tat vote for one increase or sweetheart deal (double duipping, sick pay schemes) that curent taxation levels couldn't possible sustain

And bankers at least can do math. So they don't have the pathological stupidity excuse.

157 I will never give up my gratitude for his service- but that doesn't mean I want him in government. Just because you were in the military and served honorably doesn't make you someone I want leading this country. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 11:27 AM (8y9MW) Isn't that what I said?

158
yeah, why should Auntie Zetuni be saddled with all the debt that the Republicans created over the last 10 years?!?!?

Hasn't Auntie Zetunia paid enough?

159

So you have the Kafkaesque situation where standards are "accepted" by all entities as being rational and prudent...but no one will actually implement them because it would mean financial ruin.

That gives me the oppotunity to post this, one of my favorite Onion videos.

Everyone keeps calling me S.

160
it's not bankers...

it's banksters.

161 Indeed, the bankers could at least point out how the mortgage failure rate was excepttionally low during the up times

One wonders (not) why the MFM never explains why the failure rate was so low during that time despite the fact that banks loaned a shit-ton of money to people who had no possibility of making the payments.

And that is because the real-estate bubble was expanding so fast that when a borrower couldn't meet payments all they had to do was either refinance using their "new equity" or sell the house at a huge profit because it was a seller's market.

When the feds finally started jacking up the interest rates that little party came to an end and the banks had to start eating those bad mortgages.

162
Jetsters.

163 Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 18, 2011 11:28 AM (i6RpT)

Oh, but he is such a...Maverick!

164 Indeed, the bankers could at least point out how the mortgage failure rate was excepttionally low during the up times

One wonders (not) why the MFM never explains why the failure rate was so low during that time despite the fact that banks loaned a shit-ton of money to people who had no possibility of making the payments.

And that is because the real-estate bubble was expanding so fast that when a borrower couldn't meet payments all they had to do was either refinance using their "new equity" or sell the house at a huge profit because it was a seller's market.

When the feds finally started jacking up the interest rates that little party came to an end and the banks had to start eating those bad mortgages.

Posted by: Vic

Wheras the game politicians were are playing with pressure groups bled us in good times and bad.

165 Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 18, 2011 11:28 AM (i6RpT)

Well, I never suspected otherwise, but what you wrote could be read to say that he's "spent" all the good will he was due for his service.  I was pointing out that he'll never do that- but that good will doesn't extend (and really never should have, if it ever did) to deciding his fitness to serve in a position of leadership in the country.

Probably a slightly pedantic quibble, but I like to be clear when I can.

166 Probably a slightly pedantic quibble, but I like to be clear when I can. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 11:35 AM (8y9MW) I would always give him credit for his service and would gladly pay for some of his upkeep in the old sailors home. I hear there are some openings in the Guam center.

167 Egan-Jone just downrated the US from AAA to AA+ without all of the public hyperventilating like Moodys and S&P. Did the world end, I'm afraid to look out the window?

168 Did the world end, I'm afraid to look out the window? Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2011 11:39 AM (WkuV6) It is getting rather hot outside?

169 gold is over 1600/oz is that one of those psycho-barriers that triggers algos?

170 172 Did the world end, I'm afraid to look out the window?
Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2011 11:39 AM (WkuV6)

It is getting rather hot outside?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 18, 2011 11:40 AM (i6RpT)

Ride on my Bretheren!

Ride Inflation..

Ride Regulation...

Ride Cronyism.....

Ride Progresivism....

171 Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 18, 2011 11:40 AM (i6RpT)

I'm in Texas.  How could I tell?  The pavement is already melting in places (yes, really).

172 I See what you did there, the horseman for the financial apocolypse can't count

173 I would always give him credit for his service and would gladly pay for some of his upkeep in the old sailors home. I hear there are some openings in the Guam center.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 18, 2011 11:38 AM (i6RpT)

But what happens when Guam tips over?

174 You know what the cutest this is about California in the midst of their death throes?  Because of their ideological idiocy, they keep building windmills that kill hundreds of thousands of birds, including endangered species and nobody says jack about abolishing the windmills to protect the birds, yet they kill the economy in the central valley to protect the Delta Smelt.   Those guys need more and better pot if you ask me.

175 173 gold is over 1600/oz is that one of those psycho-barriers that triggers algos?

Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2011 11:43 AM (WkuV6)

$1615 is the barrier. Give it two days.

176 But what happens when Guam tips over? Posted by: Shirley Jackson Lee at July 18, 2011 11:45 AM (136wp) Sailors swim real good

177 I really need a financial safeharbor - not regulated by the ATF

178 Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2011 11:46 AM (WkuV6)

Maybe the Morons could pool our resources and buy a private island somewhere.

I've got about $.50 I can spare...

179 Egan-Jone just downrated the US from AAA to AA+ without all of the public hyperventilating like Moodys and S&P. Did the world end, I'm afraid to look out the window?

Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2011 11:39 AM (WkuV6)

So ... according to Egan-Jone, there are better bets for sovereign debt than the US?  I wonder how any of those other sovereign debts/currencies are going to look if the US goes down.  I don't think the ratings agencies factor these little bits and pieces in.  I'd love to see the "equations" they used to arrive at their valuations ...  yep.

It is insane to have anyone dropping the ratings on US debt without looking at everyone else in the world, FIRST, as a downgrade in US debt (a real one, not a fake one) affects most others more than it affects the US.

180 You know what the cutest this is about California in the midst of their death throes?  Because of their ideological idiocy, they keep building windmills that kill hundreds of thousands of birds, including endangered species and nobody says jack about abolishing the windmills to protect the birds, yet they kill the economy in the central valley to protect the Delta Smelt.   Those guys need more and better pot if you ask me.

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber

 

Try clam shells. Ingest enough of those, and you'll go nuts over 'land' that is wetter than the town square of Atlantis.

181

It is insane to have anyone dropping the ratings on US debt without looking at everyone else in the world, FIRST, as a downgrade in US debt (a real one, not a fake one) affects most others more than it affects the US.

Posted by: Henry Harold Humphries - you can call me 'H' at July 18, 2011 11:48 AM (6GZ1D)

Sure we're dead, but we're just mostly dead.  Europe is dead, dead.  Snarf up those treasuries!

182 "We will break bury you!"

183 Sure we're dead, but we're just mostly dead.  Europe is dead, dead.  Snarf up those treasuries!

So we get to go through their pockets, looking for loose change?

184 Isn't Meade a liberal?  If so, he's really soured on the whole liberal project, hasn't he?

185 What's the magic 8 ball say about King Putt's stunning personal announcement to be made today?

Uhh, let me be clear.  Kal Penn and I are moving to New York and getting married.  Michelle can have the punishments, I'm keeping the dog.  Bo is really good at licking peanut butter IYKWIM.

186 17 CNBC anchor: so you're talking about Armageddon here  Egan: Yes  Anchor: so what should people invest in?
------------------------------------
Sounds like the answer should have been "Arms, ammunition, food, water, and other survival supplies.

And chaps. -no, don't ask me why."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 09:21 AM (8y9MW)

Why?

187 What's the magic 8 ball say about King Putt's stunning personal announcement to be made today?
----
Apparently, it was personnel, not personal.  ABC had it wrong, but corrected it. 

188 Apparently, it was personnel, not personal.  ABC had it wrong, but corrected it. 

Posted by: Y-not at July 18, 2011 11:54 AM (5H6zj)

Same thing.  Barky owns all the peons who work for him, in his house.

189 @193  Isn't that peaons? 

190

Republicans, “No!  Not spending cuts!  No!  Not program cuts!  No!  Tax increases!  ThatÂ’s the ticket!  Glad we thought of it!”

191 Coming from Ms Lee, that is comforting

192 "This is an important point about the modern welfare state that people (especially liberals) fundamentally misunderstand: a 'right' comes from nature (or God), not from the pen of a politician."

Nub of the Progressive argument: I'm owed the best of everything but I don't want to pay for it. If you disagree, you're a capitalist pig Nazi criminal racist [insert nastiest meme-of-the-day here].

Substitute "Parasite" for "Progressive" and know that, in context, the switch is applicable pretty much universally. And the Democrat Party welcomed the bloodsuckers to feast from head to toe. Killing the host is always OK because there's always another host. Right? There's another unsullied USA to be raided when this one is exsanguinated. I believe it's composed of seven of Obama's fifty-seven states.

193 194 @193  Isn't that peaons? 

Posted by: Y-not at July 18, 2011 11:56 AM (5H6zj)

Nope. Pee-ons.

194 Posted by: Beefy Meatball at July 18, 2011 11:53 AM (YYaIP)

I said not to ask.  But it involves an Ewok and good fiscal decisions...

195 Apparently, it was personnel, not personal.  ABC had it wrong, but corrected it. 

Posted by: Y-not at July 18, 2011 11:54 AM (5H6zj)

Yeah, apparently the former AG of Ohio who got booted out.

He also defended the slimeballs who got Joe the Plumber's personal info, so for all of you who thought Obamacare was a great idea, guess where your private medical records will end up?

196 199 Posted by: Beefy Meatball at July 18, 2011 11:53 AM (YYaIP)

I said not to ask.  But it involves an Ewok and good fiscal decisions...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 18, 2011 11:58 AM (8y9MW)

That's good enuff for me. I'm getting a pair for the whole family!

197 196

Posted by: Shirley Jackson Lee at July 18, 2011 11:46 AM (136wp)

Coming from Ms Lee, that is comforting

Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2011 11:57 AM (WkuV6)

And wrong.  It was Hank Johnson.

198 Henry Harold Humphries - the whole ratings game is an orouborous, I might be tempted to go Canadian for now.

199

We can't forget about what the unions are trying to do. Ruin America.

"The new union tactic is to use pressure on corporate boardrooms as a means of organizing entire companies nationwide rather than recruiting workers on a site-by-site basis; in short, to organize employers rather than employees. To create this pressure, unions attempt to push businesses to the edge of bankruptcy, with little regard for the welfare of employer and employee. They attempt to strong-arm businesses into agreeing to take away the secret ballot for employees in union-organizing elections via card check. They also try to force employers to restrict their own speech on union issues so that workers will not get both sides of the story on unionization. Among the SEIU's demands is that employers agree to bargain only with it, to the exclusion of all other unions, regardless of what workers want."

200 And wrong. It was Hank Johnson. Posted by: Ace's liver at July 18, 2011 12:01 PM (/gOMq) Only because Shirley Jackson Lee wasn't sure if Guam was on the moon or mars

201 Posted by: Lemon Kitten at July 18, 2011 12:03 PM (0fzsA)

You know, I never really liked unions, even in theory.  Now I outright hate them.

202

Republicans, “No!  Not spending cuts!  No!  Not program cuts!  No!  Tax increases!  ThatÂ’s the ticket!  Glad we thought of it!”

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at July 18, 2011 11:57 AM (jx2j9)

Yes, that is exactly what the Dems want. And they want it for far more than the tax and spend communism that is their plank.

They want it because they HAVE been paying attention to Rasmussen and DeMint. They know if the Republicans bend over and do this the Tea party will start running 3rd party candidates and you can say an immediate and permanent goodbye to at least 18% of the Republican base.

An 18% that will only grow with time until the Republican Party goes the way of its predecessor, the Whigs.

203 wait, I was wrong, he didn't say "we will bury you" at the UN, it was in a speech at the Polish embassy.

204 "Moodys asks why have a debt ceiling at all?"

WTF? I can only conclude that it feels derelict in not already having downgraded US bonds and, rather than performing its duty, is trying to deflect responsibility.

Moodys tried bluffing its way to scare the US into responsible debt and has now pretty much given up. That's called a tell.

This message brought to you by Glenn Beck and gold bullion.

205 That's a lotta DOOM!

206 Henry Harold Humphries - the whole ratings game is an orouborous, I might be tempted to go Canadian for now.

Posted by: Jean at July 18, 2011 12:03 PM (WkuV6)

Made me look that up ...  Thanks, jean.  nice word.

BTW, you can call me 'H'

207 actually, the point I was making is that it is only obvious to the people here. I just had to tell my friend not to fill up her car until later in the week, to just put in enough gas to tide her over since gas prices have to come down since oil is going down. She literally had no idea.

208

"Moodys asks why have a debt ceiling at all?"

that reminds me of Vikram Pandit (CEO of Citi) testifying that Citi's risk analysis didn't factor in the possibility of falling (or even stagnant) real estate prices.  And that was just over a decade after ... falling real estate prices in the US.

I have so little respect for business schools that I can't even put it into words.

209 WE buried him

210 Sorry to spoil it for you guys, but when the economy stays in the toilet the Democrats will say its because of Bush and Republicans deliberately trying to tank the economy.

They may say it but without the MSM flying cover for them they couldn't get anyone to believe it.

The truth, of course, is that the Democrats burned the house down so that they could ride in and be the Firemen. They set the whole thing up and with the aid of their good buddies with the petro dollars in the middle east they got the fire started by burning down the stock market. The 2009 stock market crash was fueled by sell orders from the middle east - just as the post 9/11 stock market crash came from the Saudi's pulling 400 Billion out of the market.

It is all part of Islam's war on the west - joining with their useful idiot allies in the Democratic Party.

211

Geitner has always struck me as the biggest asshole in any room: Miserable and whoa-is-me. It's writen on his face.

 

212 Its nice to see something intelligent for a change rather than the LGF BS,

213 Who's up for some green self-bonage in California?

214 KFC, Kim Fried Chicken. lol

215 Hey Monty,

Just wanted to thank you for all of your posts on the economy DOOM!

I'm glad to be a fully-paid, lifetime, registered member of this smart, economics blog. Where else can you get such an "asteroid speeding towards Earth"-eye view of impending doom?

216 That is useful information and its quite easy to come a croper if you are not vigilant.

217 I donÂ’t usually add my comments, but I will in this case. Nice work. I look forward to reading more.