Ace of Spades HQ

May 25, 2011

Judge Rules Jared Lee Loughner Incompetent (Due To Insanity) to Stand Trial
— Ace

Technically the test is the capacity to know right from wrong, and by calling his attack an "assassination," he evidenced he knew it was wrong and illegal. He also telegraphed his knowledge that he'd be arrested for it.

So technically, he's sane.

But a judge says no.

Jared Loughner, who is charged in connection with the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the killing of six others, was ruled incompetent to stand trial by a federal judge at a competency hearing today in Phoenix.

U.S. District Judge Larry Burns found Loughner, 22, described by his own legal team as "gravely mentally ill," was incapable of understanding the proceedings against him and assisting in his own defense.
The decision came shortly after Loughner was hustled out of the courtroom for an outburst that disrupted the hearing. He spent five weeks undergoing psychiatric evaluations at a federal prison hospital in Missouri.

He is gravely mentally ill. But that's a psychiatric description, not a legal one.

In all honesty, the legal test is extremely stingy and only permits findings of "not competent" for those who experience actual visual hallucinations and the like. Because only that sort of person can say, "I thought I was killing a demon."

Mark David Chapman could pass that test because of his delusion that John Lennon had replaced him as a clone or whatever it was.

Still, stingy or not, the test is the test.

He was removed from court due to his outburst.

Posted by: Ace at 11:48 AM | Comments (138)
Post contains 272 words, total size 2 kb.

1
This stinks like Denmark.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 11:49 AM (uFokq)

2 Well of course he's gravely mentally ill, he's a Tea Partier after all.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 25, 2011 11:49 AM (TMB3S)

3 I blame homophobia, global warming deniers, the tea party, sarah palin and your little dog too.

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at May 25, 2011 11:50 AM (u8JAM)

4
This is horseshit. This guy Loughner, as kooky as he is, led a somewhat functional life. He went to school, had friends, and had no history of violence.

Jared Loughner is as sane as the average radical campus left winger.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 11:51 AM (uFokq)

5 Another Palinista.

Posted by: IE Con at May 25, 2011 11:51 AM (/COcn)

6
You have to wonder what the outburst in the courtroom was about. My guess: Loughner wants his day in court and does not want this incompetency ruling.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 11:53 AM (uFokq)

7 I suppose the judge will probably rule Loughner to be a Republican. Just because he can.

Posted by: George Orwell at May 25, 2011 11:53 AM (+vkOU)

8 I'm sure the a-hole's in court outburst was just the epitome of concise precision thinking.

Posted by: IE Con at May 25, 2011 11:53 AM (/COcn)

9 I also think ethanol mandates are wonderful. Who's crazy now?

Posted by: Jared Lee Loughner at May 25, 2011 11:53 AM (c45xH)

10 Loughner will still go to trial, as Arizona has provisions for "guilty but insane".

The only difference will be that, if he's convicted, he'll go to a jail for the mentally ill instead of the state pen.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at May 25, 2011 11:54 AM (UvFnc)

11 Jared Loughner is as sane as the average radical campus left winger.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 03:51 PM (uFokq)

Actually, that's pretty much what he was.

Posted by: AmishDude at May 25, 2011 11:54 AM (T0NGe)

12
...was incapable of understanding the proceedings against him and assisting in his own defense.

You can say that about most of the low-lifes who commit heinous acts. We're not dealing with scholars and reasonable people in these circumstances. Put 'em on trial and then hang 'em high.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 11:55 AM (uFokq)

13 The fact that he tried to hide the crime and he pre-planned it shows that he does in fact meet the test to stand trial for multiple murder.

So why was he not being tried in a State court to begin with?

Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 11:55 AM (M9Ie6)

14 You got it wrong. He was found unable to aid in his own defense. Doesn't matter whether he knew he was doing wrong, and the judge ordered the doctors to ignore whether he was sane at the time of the shooting. The only thing that matters is if the guy is competent to stand trial, and the government has 4 months to try and get enough evidence thru observation that he is lucid.

Posted by: Joe at May 25, 2011 11:56 AM (6M1XE)

It may be cold to look at this in a political context, but as long as this guy is deemed sane, the easier it is for the left to hang this on "right wing rhetoric"

If this guy is declared a nut, it further de-legitimizes that assclown sheriff in Pima County, and all the others who jumped to conclusions.

This issue may have faded from the national spotlight, but it will still have ramifications in AZ for at least another election cycle.

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 25, 2011 11:56 AM (hInJ6)

16 I wouldn't a done it.

Posted by: T-Paw (R-"kind of") -MN at May 25, 2011 11:57 AM (AnTyA)

17 A question for the lawyers: "not competent to stand trial" is not the same as "not guilty by reason of insanity", right? In this case, they're holding Loughner until he's sane, and then trying him, correct?

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at May 25, 2011 11:57 AM (bjRNS)

18 Don't worry about it. Rush should be indicted soon by the batshit crazy DA in Tucson.

Posted by: nora at May 25, 2011 11:58 AM (VxqUc)

19 It really seems to me that the Judge got this wrong.

If we simply said evil assholes are too crazy to stand trial, practically every truly horrible crime on the books wouldn't be crimes anymore.

What Loughner did proves he's mentally screwed up, but he is responsible enough to pay.

Even if this is reversed, this is a powerful point if he ever faces the death penalty.

We need better judges in this country.

Posted by: Dustin at May 25, 2011 11:58 AM (Q3nWV)

20 Always been a big fan of "guilty by reason of insanity" but for some reason the defense lawyer always kicks me off the jury.

Posted by: Bob Saget talking shit about Total at May 25, 2011 11:58 AM (F/4zf)

21 BTW, he was appointed by Bush 43.

Posted by: Dustin at May 25, 2011 11:59 AM (Q3nWV)

22 To be fair, neither Loughner nor Chapman are now electable.

Posted by: Dr Spank at May 25, 2011 11:59 AM (1fB+3)

23 We really need to shut down US Attorneys who try to hog the limelight by taking cases on that the state courts are much better suited for.

This was a crime on Arizona, rather directly. The Feds taking the case made justice less likely, but helped the career of the US Attorney, who I think should now be fired and ridiculed for his failure to get a conviction for this very serious crime.

Posted by: Dustin at May 25, 2011 12:00 PM (Q3nWV)

24 Hold on a minute. Finding him incompetent to stand trial is not the same thing as finding him guilty by reason of insanity, right? They'll hold him until he's "better" and then try him. If he doesn't get better, he'll remain locked up indefinitely.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:01 PM (Xm1aB)

25 So technically, he's sane.

Christ, I'm such a long time aoshq fanatic, that I remember the requisite reaction to the Tucson shootings was: he's crazy, so he's not one of us! Repeated ad infinitum. Well, repeated ad infinitum, until today.

You're a fucking idiot.

Posted by: J. Laughner, knucklehead hero at May 25, 2011 12:02 PM (Q/ZcN)

26 Do we know if this judge has taken a stand on the death penalty?

Posted by: Vic at May 25, 2011 12:02 PM (M9Ie6)

27 Competency and sanity are two separate concepts. The former looks to now while the latter looks to his mental state at the time of the offense. In addition, the standards used for both are different in terms of what is being assessed.

Posted by: Ed at May 25, 2011 12:03 PM (4T+nS)

28 @23 dude killed a federal judge and shot a congress woman that's good reason for a federal trial.

Posted by: Bannor at May 25, 2011 12:03 PM (6AXh/)

29 Arizona law does not apply. Federal law applies.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:03 PM (Xm1aB)

30
eggmcmuffin just makes up shit

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 12:03 PM (uFokq)

31 I bet Jared Loughner knows what year it is.

Posted by: t-bird at May 25, 2011 12:04 PM (FcR7P)

32 A bullet behind the ear would resolve his mental issues.

Posted by: Well Hung Chad at May 25, 2011 12:05 PM (x3LIU)

33 I bet Jared Loughner knows there's only 50 states.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:05 PM (Xm1aB)

34 I have a feeling I'll be alone in this, but this makes sense to me. This guy was fairly obviously deeply psychotic and/or paranoid schizophrenic. He'll likely be spending the rest of his life in custodial care of some variety, be it jail or a looney bin. Regarding Ace's comments about seeing demons as being the "test," what do you think he was doing, given what we know about him? Jews, the "New World Order" or "language" (in this particular case) just replaced the demons of a century ago. It's the same species of crazy.

Posted by: CTD at May 25, 2011 12:05 PM (RurGt)

35 17 A question for the lawyers: "not competent to stand trial" is not the same as "not guilty by reason of insanity", right? In this case, they're holding Loughner until he's sane, and then trying him, correct?

That's right.
He has to be able to understand the proceedings and be able to assist in his own defense to have the capacity to stand trial.
Once he goes to trial, an insanity defense would be that he did not understand that the act was wrong.

Posted by: real joe at May 25, 2011 12:05 PM (IpIBJ)

36
eggmcmuffin's entire shtick has been pointing out hypocrisy at AoS.

But eggmcmuffin fabricates facts and history out of whole cloth.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 12:06 PM (uFokq)

37 Ace - this ruling has NO bearing on Loughner's sanity at the time he shot all those people - it's not a determination that he was insane at the time of the shooting at all, in fact the determiner's of his incompetency were instructed by the judge not to consider his sanity at the time of the shooting.

The ruling is related to his ability to understand the charges and assist in his defense, now, in the present time, and will be reviewed after a standard period of time.

Also, even if he were determined to be insane at the time of the shooting by a jury, AZ doesn't have not guilty by reason of insanity, FWIW - their version of that is "Guilty but insane".

Posted by: SarahW at May 25, 2011 12:06 PM (Z4T49)

Posted by: J. Laughner, knucklehead hero at May 25, 2011 04:02 PM (Q/ZcN)

FOAD, erg, you name-stealer!

Posted by: Jared Lee Loughner at May 25, 2011 12:07 PM (c45xH)

39 The early morons get to read about a guy boxing goofy on a plane and I have to read about this piece of shit.

Posted by: USS Diversity at May 25, 2011 12:07 PM (RPYjQ)

40 His condition will be monitored and reviewed - and he may stand trial at a later time.

Posted by: SarahW at May 25, 2011 12:07 PM (Z4T49)

41 He did not masturbate on a plane when he had the chance. Look how that turned out.

Posted by: Cherry π at May 25, 2011 12:07 PM (+sBB4)

42
Crazy is a helluva drug.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at May 25, 2011 12:08 PM (QMtmy)

43 Crazy is like pornography. Can't define it, but I know it when I see it. This guy is magna cum laude nuts. I'd love to see a passionate trial which shows off our justice system and yada yada yada, but I don't see it happening with this psycho. The fact that he was able to pretend to be normal at times doesn't move me. He checked out a while ago. I hope the docs can work on his competentcy so he can stand trial for the crimes he's accused of, but I'm not holding my breath. He'll most likely be in a psych ward for the rest of his life...

Posted by: joejm65 at May 25, 2011 12:08 PM (BDB5n)

44 "28 @23 dude killed a federal judge and shot a congress woman that's good reason for a federal trial. Posted by: Bannor"

He shot a congress woman who represents Arizona, not the federal government.

He also shot regular people who are just as important.

yes, the federal judge is a different matter.

But the good reason against a federal trial is that the prosecutors should be focused primarily on getting a conviction rather than having a pissing match for their personal goals.

This probably wouldn't have happened in a state criminal trial. That's the bottom line. Those saying state law doesn't apply in this situation have no freaking idea what they are talking about. It's a matter of discretion, as in the US Attorney caring enough about a conviction to not interfere, and let the state courts handle this, which they would have done.

Mass Murder that doesn't cross state lines is an easy case for state courts to handle. There's very little about this that should require the federal government, beyond one of the victims being employed by the federal government.

Posted by: Dustin at May 25, 2011 12:08 PM (Q3nWV)

45 O'Bama: Incompetent to Serve

Posted by: Cherry π at May 25, 2011 12:08 PM (+sBB4)

46 The feds should have move it to federal court San Diego instead of Phoenix. Fewer shenanigans here in San Diego.

Posted by: wooga at May 25, 2011 12:08 PM (2p0e3)

47 There's different standards for difference stages of the crime, Ace. 1. Did he know the difference between right and wrong at the time of the crime? 2. Is he able to assist in his defense for and during trial? 3. If sentenced to death, does he understand that he is going to be executed and the reasons for his execution? I think only #2 applies to Loughner at this time. Many defendants are found incompetent to stand trial. They jack them up with drugs and hopefully bring them back to court in due course.

Posted by: Tough US Immigration Policies at May 25, 2011 12:09 PM (zL6Hj)

48
btw, what's the reason for the delay to put Nadil Hassan on trial?

The Ft Hood massacre committed by that Left Wing Democrat Al Qaeda supporter, Nadil Hassan, occurred in November 2009.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 12:09 PM (uFokq)

49 "His condition will be monitored and reviewed - and he may stand trial at a later time.

Posted by: SarahW"

Except the he can just act crazy forever, and since he hasn't been convicted of any crimes, his treatment carries the presumption of innocence. He lives a much better life if he acts crazy.

Posted by: Dustin at May 25, 2011 12:10 PM (Q3nWV)

50 Arizona can also prosecute him for murder if it wishes.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:10 PM (Xm1aB)

51 Whoops! Looks like some morons beat me to it.

Posted by: Tough US Immigration Policies at May 25, 2011 12:10 PM (zL6Hj)

52 But could he have correctly toasted the Queen?

Posted by: Joe the Cussing Pastor at May 25, 2011 12:11 PM (yG/qX)

53 Seems to me I've seen cases where the feds try a case that didn't get the ruling they wanted in state court. Can this work in reverse?

Posted by: Buzzsaw at May 25, 2011 12:12 PM (tf9Ne)

54 "I have a feeling I'll be alone in this.... " No, you're not.

Posted by: Tough US Immigration Policies at May 25, 2011 12:12 PM (zL6Hj)

55 He also shot regular people who are just as important.

The hell you say.

Posted by: Dominique Strauss-Kahn at May 25, 2011 12:13 PM (T0NGe)

Except the he can just act crazy forever, and since he hasn't been convicted of any crimes, his treatment carries the presumption of innocence. He lives a much better life if he acts crazy.>>>>>>>>

I don't think he can act crazy and keep the act going long enough to fool the experts. I don't think it's an act. I wish it was so he could stand trial, hear 'guilty' on all counts, and then get psyched for his execution. I just don't think it's an act. He's gone, and he ain't coming back.

Posted by: joejm65 at May 25, 2011 12:13 PM (BDB5n)

57 51 Arizona can also prosecute him for murder if it wishes.

Double jeapordy?

Posted by: Moronette Without A Presadent at May 25, 2011 12:14 PM (dh5Eu)

58 So John Hinkley has a checkers partner. That's swell.

Posted by: Beefy Meatball at May 25, 2011 12:14 PM (YYaIP)

59 Arizona law does not apply. Federal law applies.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 04:03 PM (Xm1aB)

Murder is against Arizona law. He can be tried in state.

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at May 25, 2011 12:14 PM (u8JAM)

60 O/T: He called Laura Ingram a slut?

Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 12:14 PM (k1rwm)

61 No double jeopardy.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:15 PM (Xm1aB)

62 See? This is typical bitter clinger violence. Guns and bibles. That's all these right-wingers know. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck and maybe we get somewhere. It's 2008. You would think that red-neck Republicans would behave for a change. That is all. PS-- I got Bin Laden.

Posted by: President Gutsy Call (tm) at May 25, 2011 12:15 PM (6uiF7)

63 You can't question Ace. He controls the grammar... he controls the grammar...

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 25, 2011 12:16 PM (hInJ6)

64 O/T But- UH OH- CAIRO Â– Egypt will open its only crossing with the Gaza Strip this weekend, the Cairo military government announced Wednesday, significantly easing a four-year blockade on the Hamas-ruled territory but setting up a potential conflict with Israel.

Posted by: Moronette Without A Presadent at May 25, 2011 12:16 PM (dh5Eu)

65 Here is an unusual piece on one of Judge Larry decisions.

Posted by: SomeWhereSouthWest at May 25, 2011 12:16 PM (CyPWX)

Arizona can also prosecute him for murder if it wishes.

Double jeapordy?

Doesn't attach until the trial begins.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at May 25, 2011 12:16 PM (JxMoP)

67 O/T: Sharon Angle's out?

Posted by: curious at May 25, 2011 12:16 PM (k1rwm)

What "experts"? Psychiatrists? They're idiots and frauds, for the most part.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 25, 2011 04:14 PM (G/MYk) >>>>>>>

All of them? OK. Then there's no point in even trying to get him in court. The system is hopelessly corrupt, and that's that.

Posted by: joejm65 at May 25, 2011 12:17 PM (BDB5n)

69
Airline beat-off guy shoulda just played crazy.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at May 25, 2011 12:17 PM (QMtmy)

70 #61 I was referring to the standards and allowable verdicts concerning mental defects. Arizona law does not apply in federal court.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:18 PM (Xm1aB)

71 In California, they use to send them down to Atascadero, jack them up with psychotropic drugs and do role playing. They had a mock courtroom and people would play the judge, the prosecutor, the public defender, etc.

Posted by: Tough US Immigration Policies at May 25, 2011 12:18 PM (zL6Hj)

72 Why no double jeapordy? If the feds take a case, can the state try him on the exact same counts?

Posted by: Moronette Without A Presadent at May 25, 2011 12:18 PM (dh5Eu)

73 I'm sure I would be motivated to rub shit in my hair and babble nonsense to every question if I was about to be tried in for a death penalty offense too. How convenient.

That kidnapping rapist Brian Mitchell and his wife up in Utah both pulled essentially the same stunt over the Elizabeth Smart case. It took over 4 years to find him 'competent'.

Posted by: GnuBreed at May 25, 2011 12:19 PM (ENKCw)

74 Once he's convicted in federal court, Arizona can prosecute him for the murders in state court. No double jeopardy since he would not be tried for the same offense (per statute).

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:19 PM (Xm1aB)

Why no double jeapordy? If the feds take a case, can the state try him on the exact same counts?

No.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at May 25, 2011 12:20 PM (JxMoP)

"for the most part"

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 25, 2011 04:18 PM (G/MYk) >>>>>>

OK. I'd prefer evidence over opinion on a statement like that, but if all State and Federal Shrinks are TSA-type employees then, like I said, that's that....

Posted by: joejm65 at May 25, 2011 12:20 PM (BDB5n)

Yeah - he's nuts. So? Why is that an excuse?

The left are such pussies.

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at May 25, 2011 12:20 PM (0fzsA)

78 Double jeopardy would only bar two trials in federal or two in state court. I think the concept is called dual sovereignty, that allows the feds to try someone for the same acts that he was acquitted for in state court.

Posted by: real joe at May 25, 2011 12:20 PM (IpIBJ)

79 Atascadero is a girl's Summer camp compared to me

send that bald psycho to me; I'll straighten his shit out, real fast

Posted by: Pelican Bay at May 25, 2011 12:20 PM (UqKQV)

80 He can be tried in state court, federal court, and Atzlan court. If I were his lawyer, I tried to get him in Atzlan court. Those fuckers hate the Feds anyway.

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 25, 2011 12:21 PM (hInJ6)

81 Can the AZ charge him, despite a fed ruling of incompetence?

Posted by: Moronette Without A Presadent at May 25, 2011 12:21 PM (dh5Eu)

82 No remorse, check.
Gravely mentally ill, check.
Will be a danger to society for as long as he lives, check.

So naturally it makes sense for the State to "treat" him for his illness for the next 60 years. One well-placed bullet would be the most effective treatment for this fellow.

Posted by: Chairman LMAO at May 25, 2011 12:21 PM (9eDbm)

83 The judge "acted stupidly"

Posted by: Moronette Without A Presadent at May 25, 2011 12:22 PM (dh5Eu)

84 @ 71 - Sharon Angle is out... of her mind. Has been for a while.

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 25, 2011 12:22 PM (hInJ6)

85 86 Can the AZ charge him, despite a fed ruling of incompetence?

I would guess they could, if AZ's experts find him capable of understanding the proceedings.

Posted by: real joe at May 25, 2011 12:23 PM (IpIBJ)

86 AZ can charge him at anytime and reprocess the entire compentency inquiry through the state. Assuming the feds would make Loughner available.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:23 PM (Xm1aB)

"Jared Loughner, who is charged in connection with the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the killing of six others"

Wow, even a Federal Judge is deemed a Mundane unworthy of naming (well, I guess he was a GOP appointee). Pretty funny that a wounded Elite trumps 6 dead Mundanes, too.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at May 25, 2011 12:23 PM (xy9wk)

88 The man is mentally ill, like a rabid dog, he needs to be put down before he harms someone else.

Posted by: Deathknyte at May 25, 2011 12:23 PM (VwUPm)

89 Dual sovereignty here - the state and the feds are each, as sovereign entities, entitled to try the guy even for the same crime as long as it violated laws in both. Each has its own, distinct interest in seeing justice done via the enforcement of its laws.

Posted by: Rick at May 25, 2011 12:24 PM (L/O45)

90 89 @ 71 - Sharon Angle is out... of her mind. Has been for a while.

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 25, 2011 04:22 PM (hInJ6)

Yeah, I just hope NV GOP voters don't have the same hatred of their party leadership as NY GOP voters do.

Posted by: Dominique Strauss-Kahn at May 25, 2011 12:24 PM (T0NGe)

91 Forget it. I ban myself for the typos, misspellings and poor syntax.

Posted by: Moronette With The Gramma Hamma at May 25, 2011 12:24 PM (dh5Eu)

92 My spelling sicks.

Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2011 12:24 PM (Xm1aB)

93 Rapist sock off.

Posted by: AmishDude at May 25, 2011 12:25 PM (T0NGe)

It's a matter of discretion, as in the US Attorney caring enough about a conviction to not interfere, and let the state courts handle this, which they would have done.

If getting a conviction is the goal, letting the feds have the case improves the odds. Their conviction rate is higher than any state's.

That's partly because they bigfoot slam-dunk cases to boost their numbers, and partly because of jury psychology. In a case where, e.g., an insanity plea (to the actual charge) is a plausible but low-odds defense, the marginal increase in jury complaisance a federal prosecution effects might swing it toward "guilty."

This incompetence ruling doesn't matter. It would have been made anywhere. Dude is fucked up.

Posted by: oblig. at May 25, 2011 12:25 PM (xvZW9)

95 Oops.

Posted by: oblig. at May 25, 2011 12:25 PM (xvZW9)

96 There are no objective measures by which they operate, so one is never going to get anything but their opinions, and these are the opinions of people who tend to be not all that bright. Of med students, the most screwed up and dumbest of the lot tend to go into psychiatry.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 25, 2011 04:23 PM (G/MYk)

Preach it!

Posted by: Charles Krauthammer at May 25, 2011 12:25 PM (T0NGe)

The evidence is that psychiatry is an art, not a real science - and I'm being overly generous, here. They make declarations about the internal workings of people's minds, as if they have any clue. They don't. There are no objective measures by which they operate, so one is never going to get anything but their opinions

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 25, 2011 04:23 PM (G/MYk)

Freud admitted as much his autobiography--which his acolytes tried to bury

Posted by: SantaRosaStan, only occasionally wrong at May 25, 2011 12:26 PM (UqKQV)

98 This guy was a right wing hispanic hater. Presadent Obama will fix this problem. I feel safe because Presadent Obama is our leader.

Posted by: Mary Clogginstien from Brattleboro, VT at May 25, 2011 12:26 PM (48wze)

99 He was always such a nice, quiet boy. Except for the cat and dog carcasses all over the back yard. And the dead raccoon tied to the hood of his car.

Posted by: Typical clueless neighbor at May 25, 2011 12:27 PM (UOM48)

100
Everything I know about mental illness I learned from Stir Crazy.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at May 25, 2011 12:27 PM (QMtmy)

101 O/T - Pat F'n Caddell just told Cavuto that an inanimate object should've won NY-26.

Boehner and the House leadership have been an abject failure. The American people get the debt. They've had it with the debt. "Sure, the GOP will most likely win the Senate but LOSE the House."

When Cavuto asked what was so bad about calling attention to the Ryan budget, Pat said, "They're doing nothing to counter that smear ad. They're not educating the public. The dems have nothing to run on but scare tactics. Their whole goal is just to get elected. And those people saying Ryan should run for president are looking at another Goldwater campaign. "

Yes, Pat was agitated. Again.

Posted by: RushBabe at May 25, 2011 12:28 PM (Ew27I)

102 A federal trial and eventual competency makes Loughner eligible for a lifetime stay in ADX Florence..........where he can finish out his days in his own private nightmare.

Posted by: David at May 25, 2011 12:28 PM (+ztuU)

103

It may be cold to look at this in a political context, but as long as this guy is deemed sane, the easier it is for the left to hang this on "right wing rhetoric"

If this guy is declared a nut, it further de-legitimizes that assclown sheriff in Pima County, and all the others who jumped to conclusions.

This issue may have faded from the national spotlight, but it will still have ramifications in AZ for at least another election cycle.

Posted by: swamp_yankee

The same media that spun this as a hit ordered by Palin are the same media that isn't hammering that sheriff and the echo chamber right now. We've seen far too many examples of stories which are either ignored or spun. Him being filed away is the best outcome for them all. The stories coming out from a protracted trial and the inevitable rounds of appeals would sit well.

Posted by: Blue Hen at May 25, 2011 12:29 PM (Gzv/o)

104 NY-26.... Boehner's fault!!!!! Those damn establishment Republicans. Its a wonder why anyone would vote Republicans. They suck so bad!!! They've always sucked. They never do exactly as I say!!!

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 25, 2011 12:31 PM (hInJ6)

105
This passive aggressive shit is getting old.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 12:33 PM (uFokq)

106 The evidence is that psychiatry is an art, not a real science - and I'm being overly generous, here. They make declarations about the internal workings of people's minds, as if they have any clue. They don't. There are no objective measures by which they operate, so one is never going to get anything but their opinions, and these are the opinions of people who tend to be not all that bright. Of med students, the most screwed up and dumbest of the lot tend to go into psychiatry. Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 25, 2011 04:23 PM (G/MYk)>>>>>>>>> OK. And they're part of the criminal justice system, they're at the beck and call of any lawyer that wants to use them. Now what? I understand your frustration with them, but they're knee-deep in all of this, and they're not going away.

Posted by: joejm65 at May 25, 2011 12:34 PM (BDB5n)

107 Of med students, the most screwed up and dumbest of the lot tend to go into psychiatry.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 25, 2011 04:23 PM (G/MYk)

...and dole out powerful psychotropic drugs to a large portion of the population.

Posted by: Chellita at May 25, 2011 12:35 PM (+vyxE)

108
Him being filed away is the best outcome for them all.

I concur, ol' chum.
The seeds of disinformation were already planted. Mission accomplished.

Posted by: Soothsayer at May 25, 2011 12:36 PM (uFokq)

109 I thought competent to stand trial was an OR function.

You either understand the concept of right/wrong, and knew the crime was wrong

OR

Understood you would be punished.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at May 25, 2011 12:36 PM (0q2P7)

110 Ace yer missing the point. He's only been judged not competent to stand trial. That's what he is now -- not what he was when he fired the gun. The docs were instructed not to try to determine whether or not he was insane when he committed the crime. Only a trial can determine, from evidence, whether he was sane enough to know what he was doing at that point. But they can't try him unless and until he's sane enough to not to botch up his own defense. They'll have to keep him in treatment forever, or get him better enough to have a trial. And if he ever comes to trial, it will take a whole different level of crazy for him to be found 'not guilty by reason of insanity'.

Posted by: starboardhelm at May 25, 2011 12:37 PM (ctMcG)

111 108 O/T - Pat F'n Caddell just told Cavuto that an inanimate object should've won NY-26.

Boehner and the House leadership have been an abject failure. The American people get the debt. They've had it with the debt. "Sure, the GOP will most likely win the Senate but LOSE the House."

When Cavuto asked what was so bad about calling attention to the Ryan budget, Pat said, "They're doing nothing to counter that smear ad. They're not educating the public. The dems have nothing to run on but scare tactics. Their whole goal is just to get elected. And those people saying Ryan should run for president are looking at another Goldwater campaign. "

Yes, Pat was agitated. Again.

Posted by: RushBabe at May 25, 2011 04:28 PM (Ew27I)

Yeah, 'cause Pat knows everything. If you put him in charge of a campaign, he'll win it going away unless the candidate does something like tie a Windsor knot in his tie and then Pat can't be held responsible.

Pat's too used to being a Democrat. There isn't the money to overcome the media in a special election in an off-year. And the Republican ALWAYS has to overcome the media.

Posted by: AmishDude at May 25, 2011 12:38 PM (T0NGe)

112 The best test is to remove his brain and examine it closely.

Posted by: Roy at May 25, 2011 12:40 PM (VndSC)

113

Oh wait, wasn't this guy Palins campaign manager or something? Something about Targeting districts to get out the vote? Horrible.

Thats what the 2 weeks after the event repeated over and over about this. I wish conservative pundits would throw that back in the idiots faces without mercy as they were accusing all conservatives of murder essentially.

Fuck them all

and yeah, this guy is sane, as he was looking up the possible punishments for this. His lawyer told him to go 'full retard' in the middle of court. His lawyer should probably be put on trial too and rip his license for this shit

Posted by: Billy Barty at May 25, 2011 12:42 PM (V+aEN)

114

So technically, he's sane.

If I delusionally believed that someone was the actual anti-christ, I might set out to murder them, knowing that my act was illegal but think it the right thing to do, more or less. I think that would make me insane, or insaner.

Posted by: toby928™ at May 25, 2011 12:46 PM (GTbGH)

115 "Incompetent to stand trial" means incompetent now, not at the time of the crime. She apparently ruled that in his present mental state he is not competent to participate in his own defense.

Posted by: Ken at May 25, 2011 12:52 PM (3ar4L)

116 If he's too crazy to stand trial, and exhibits this kind of violence, then he needs to be put down like a rabid dog. He cannot be trusted to share atmosphere with another innocent, living human.

Posted by: Keith Arnold at May 25, 2011 12:53 PM (Jdtsu)

117 concur with 117..

Ace, you're Mixing the two separate issues of competence to stand trial vs insanity at time of offense.

short version

Competence to proceed requires an ability to understand the proceedings, the roles of the various parties, the ability to exhibit appropriate courtroom behavior, to communicate with his counsel to the extent of having a meaningful defense (tho not necessarily successful defense).

He will now receive medications to control/ diminish his delusions, paranoia etc., and stands a good chance of being restored to competence.

I agree there are several things in the record which will undercut his efforts at an insanity defense. His writings seem to indicate he knew society judged this as a crime. He does not have to have active hallucinations for a successful insanity defense. His views seem as much egocentric/anti-social as delusional

I worked in the field for 10 years on this sort of stuff

Posted by: scott at May 25, 2011 12:54 PM (zO+Rx)

118 water board him. flush the crazy out of him real quick.

Posted by: twig at May 25, 2011 01:00 PM (w9N0m)

119 The best test is to remove his brain and examine it closely.

That's so crazy it just might work.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at May 25, 2011 01:03 PM (QMtmy)

120 Judging from that stupid video he made how can you tell the difference between him and all of the Bush haters.

Conclusion....they are all crazy

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at May 25, 2011 01:06 PM (pdRb1)

121 Having read some of Luoghner's manifestos, I have to agree with the ruling. Manifestos that are obviously deluded is one thing, but manifestos where you can't actually tell what he's trying to say are quite another...

Posted by: Lawrence Person at May 25, 2011 01:08 PM (ttktr)

122 Glad so many knowledgeable folks chimed in here. When I read the account I figured that he'd gone downhill from when he did it. I'm not worried about this bastard getting off.

Posted by: mcg at May 25, 2011 01:13 PM (giPeS)

123 OT ...

I was surprised that the nut job who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart is being sentenced this week. The wheels of justice sure turn slow. Nine years later he is finally being sentenced. What took so long? Wasn't he captured right away? I was amused that the nutter's attorney is arguing for leniency in sentencing because Elizabeth Smart is well adjusted and has managed go on with her life.

Posted by: Long Island at May 25, 2011 01:13 PM (TiURi)

124 LI - That guy (the E Smart abductor) was judged incompetent to stand trial for a loooong time. It's debatable whether he was actually competent when he was tried- but eventually he improved enough that they went ahead with his trial. The only good news in is he was so dangerously crazy that he was never released during any of that time.

Posted by: SarahW at May 25, 2011 01:30 PM (Z4T49)

125 If I delusionally believed that someone was the actual anti-christ, I might set out to murder them, knowing that my act was illegal but think it the right thing to do, more or less. I think that would make me insane, or insaner.

I had to babysit a guy who was a homicidal paranoid schiz once, albeit, he was in four point restraints. It was just me and a psych and he walked out in protest leaving me alone so I was pissed off.

But, this crazy guy started crying and begging me to help him. He really believed people were trying to kill him and was scared to death. I felt sorry for the guy. However, I wouldn't be quite so empathetic if he had not been tied down. Anyway, it's got to be awful thinking your death is imminent because people want to kill you.

Posted by: Rabbi Bloody Mary at May 25, 2011 01:55 PM (zL6Hj)

126 Remember the midwest mailbox bomber a few years ago? A crazy kid with a big smile on his face. I don't think he has ever been found competent to stand trial.

Then there was the woman who was a reporter than a lobbyist for Libya and then accused of spying - she was also found incompetent to stand trial. She was in a prison hospital for years but eventually they let her out and that was that. I dont think she was ever found competent.

Posted by: Rabbi Bloody Mary at May 25, 2011 01:58 PM (zL6Hj)

127 I don't read the comments here, so I don't know if it has been said:

The act of loading his weapon and concealing it on his person rather than carrying it openly down the street constitutes premeditation. And it shows a knowledge that he knew he was about to be committing an illegal act that he did not want stopped prior to completion.

I volunteer to put two behind his ear. There are some nice holes out by the old Kaiser Steel Eagle Mountain iron mines that have a nice view of the sunset.

Posted by: sifty at May 25, 2011 01:58 PM (2dbd9)

128 25:

We just mean he's like you, erg.

Not sane enough to be worth the oxygen he breathes, but sane enough to understand we are sticking the needle in his right arm and not his left.

Clear now? Dipshit?

Posted by: sifty at May 25, 2011 02:02 PM (2dbd9)

129 I've probably skipped over similar comments. But just for the record, the issue of whether someone is competent to stand trial is completely different from the issue of whether he is not guilty by reason of insanity.

The test for competence is whether someone understands the trial process, his rights, and is able to assist his counsel to prepare a defense. People are routinely found "incompetent" under this test (at least in California where I practice). Typically, they are sent to a mental hospital, medicated, educated, then sent back when they are deemed competent.

The test for not guilty by reason of insanity (NGI) is whether the person knew what he was doing and whether he knew that doing it was wrong. People can be (and often are) incompetent, but sane under this test.

The takeaway: don't sweat it. Loughner will be standing trial someday. Or he will be confined in a mental institution forever.

Posted by: WileyD at May 25, 2011 02:54 PM (Yjayc)

130 Who can say what was really going on in 'his' 'mind'?

I think we should expect Results-Based Criminal Justice.

By way of explanation, he shot them, some of them, he killed. How many did he kill, maim, wound, or otherwise ruin the lively hood of?

"Get a rope"

Posted by: Blacksmith8 at May 25, 2011 03:30 PM (Q1qy3)

131

"Knowing right from wrong" has precisely nothing to do with competence to stand trial. That is part of insanity defense during a trial.

"The test" for competence is an understanding of the proceedings and the ability to assist in one's own defense.

This is nothing to worry about. He will be incarcerated until he is competent, and if he never becomes competent, he will be held until he dies. And since this guy, who is obviously stone crazy, is not going to be executed, what's the difference?

Posted by: Jingo at May 25, 2011 06:37 PM (JlBmQ)

132 I kind of like the idea of a good waterboarding until competency is achieved. Then, we can send in a Seal Team to wipe him out and USA won't have to show us the pictures and we can bury him at sea.....No, wait, we've done that already. Off with his head!

Posted by: Friar Tuck at May 25, 2011 09:33 PM (TK2gt)

133 Your blog is one of a kind, i love the way you organize the topics

Posted by: discount nike max women at May 25, 2011 10:56 PM (xu/ZL)

134 There are two tests for legal competency. The first test occurs when the court determines if a defendant is competent to stand trial. Basically the goal here is to make sure that the defendant knows what's going on, and that he can assist in his own defense. If the defendant is so out in la la land that he doesn't even know he's in court, he can't help his lawyers, and so the theory is that he can't get a fair trial. If a defendant is found incompetent to stand trial they're normally remanded to a psychiatric facility until such time as they are competent. It's not a get out of jail free card by any means. The second test is during the trial if the defense tries to assert the positive defense of insanity. Basically, defendants normally have a presumption of innocence in the US. The state has to prove guilt, the defense just has to poke holes in the state's theory. When the defense asserts a positive defense, however, they burden of proof shifts. The defense admits that the defendant did whatever he's accused of, but tries to prove to the jury that he shouldn't be held accountable because of unusual circumstances. This is where criminal insanity comes in. The defense has to prove that the defendant was so out of it at the time the crime was committed, that he literally could not understand what he was doing was wrong or illegal, and could not tell the difference between right and wrong. Its an exceptionally hard standard of proof to meet, almost never asserted, and in Loughner's case, probably an impossible defense to prove.

Posted by: Dan at May 26, 2011 02:47 AM (k+cfZ)

135 Way to go, Sarah!

Posted by: Shallowpoint at May 26, 2011 01:14 PM (xwvfe)

136 Jared Lee Loughner, arrested for a deadly shooting rampage in Tucson Ariz. on Jan. 8, was ruled to be incompetent to stand trial. Loughner, after a mad outburst, was dragged out of the courtroom Wednesday by United States Marshals. I read this here: Loughner deemed incompetent to stand trial, newstype.com. He really needs some treatment, he's obviously out of his mind.

Posted by: fieraL at May 30, 2011 09:43 PM (e/FbY)

137 United States Marshals dragged Loughner out of the courtroom Wed following a mad outburst.Loughner deemed incompetent to stand trial, newstype.com. Thus, Loughner will be sent to a federal facility for four months or until doctors are convinced of his competency. His stay can be extended if it is determined he is still not competent after the four-month period. There is no limit to the number of times the stay can be extended.

Posted by: rebeccaB at May 30, 2011 11:42 PM (e/FbY)

138 The article is worth reading, I like it very much. I will keep your new articles.
http://www.nfljerseysmalls.com

Posted by: hats for sale at July 02, 2011 11:38 PM (bMWfB)

Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.

145kb generated in CPU 0.0982, elapsed 0.268 seconds.
64 queries taking 0.226 seconds, 266 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.