1 Wow. I don't know what the proper etiquette is, but: Go to your rest, soldier. RIP.

2 Wow, 110 years old.  God rest his soul.

3

RIP and prayers for his family.

Too bad most of Europe's best, brightest and toughest died in WW2 leaving those that wanted to be cared for by a nanny state behind.

4 WW1 and WW2

5 starvation, privation, slaughter, homicide, democide and massive displacement of peoples.
 
In other words, the jihadi description for Thursday.

6

Good heavens, he was barely a teenager when he joined the military!  Wow!

God bless him and his family! 

7 jungle warfare in Africa and Asia

Really? I guess that is how Bogey manged to turn Katy Hepburn into a naughty librarian.

8 Helen Thomas used to baby-sit him.

9 Really? I guess that is how Bogey manged to turn Katy Hepburn into a naughty librarian.
Posted by: fluffy, fetishist at May 05, 2011 08:23 PM

Not a librarian.  Rosie had a position as a missionary.

10 Now, no living memory remains of the War to End All Wars.

RIP, Claude Stanley Choules.

Soon enough, there won't be a living memory reminder of the War after the War to End All Wars.  And we've haven't even fully learned and assimilated into general consciousness the lessons from that war either. 

11 Osama's death pic


.....

12 I think anyone who serves in battle and survives the horror he certainly endured earns the right to be a pacifist.  The rest of those spoiled, whiny children of privilege peaceniks, not so much.

13 I think his book would be a great read:

“There was no sign of fight left in the Germans as they came out of the mist at about 10 a.m.,” Mr. Choules wrote in his autobiography, “The Last of the Last,” published two years ago. The German flag, he recalled, was hauled down at sunset.

“So ended the most momentous day in the annals of naval warfare,” he wrote. “A fleet of ships surrendered without firing a shot.”

14

Now, no living memory remains of the War to End All Wars.

RIP, Claude Stanley Choules.

Soon enough, there won't be a living memory reminder of the War after the War to End All Wars.  And we've haven't even fully learned and assimilated into general consciousness the lessons from that war either. 

Well, there is a lot of debate in history if World War 1 and World War 2 are even separate wars. 

I am part of the group that would argue that World War 1, World War 2 and the Cold War were essentially one long war.  It went froma  multi-polar war to a bi polar war and ended with a mono polar world with us coming out on top.

15 Not a librarian.

Semantics.

Rosie had a position as a missionary.

wahoo!

16 Don't blame me.  I tried.

17

If you're interested int he First World War there is are a lot of good books out there about it, unfortunately it's not been written about quite as extensively as the second world war.

 

I suggest:

The German High Command at War by Robert Asprey

The Real War 1914-1918 by Basil Liddell Hart

The First World War by Martin Gilbert

 

18

Isn't there an Aussie woman who served as a nurse in the British forces or some such in WWI who is still alive? She's 110 years old, too, IIRC.

I think the distinction is that he is the last combat veteran

19

Well, there is a lot of debate in history if World War 1 and World War 2 are even separate wars. 

Posted by: Ben at May 05, 2011 08:29 PM (DKV43)

WW2 was not inevitable.  Hitler and Wilson teamed up to bring that one about.

20 Godspeed. Enjoy your rest and reward.

21 May you rest in eternal peace, Mr. Choules.

22 WW2 was not inevitable.  Hitler and Wilson teamed up to bring that one about.

I don't know if WW2 was "not inevitable".  I hold that if it wasn't the Germans causing WW2, it would have been the Russians starting something - after all, they entered into an alliance with Hitler.  Of course, with Stalin's purges of the military, it would have started much later, perhaps the 1950's? 

23 A good song aboit WWI was Snoopy vs. The Red Baron by the Royal Guardsmen.

24

God Bless him and his family, that's a pretty badass heritage to carry on!

I'm told I have family going back to the Revolution on my Mom's side but the recored history goes back to the early 1800's when the fam were Reverends and what not. Kinda follows for me.

25 God speed Mr. Choules.   May you rest in peace.

26
If you're interested int he First World War there is are a lot of good books out there about it, unfortunately it's not been written about quite as extensively as the second world war.





Historians really have wide-ranging interpretations of WWI, and the books reflect this. It makes for some really interesting contrasts, almost as if they're writing about two or more different wars with the same battles.

Also, it's generally the Europeans who write about WWI, very few Americans have tackled the Great War in print. Hence, the conventional wisdom about WWI is necessarily from a European standpoint......meaning that the Americans are almost a footnote, not just on the battlefield but in the economics of the war as well.

27 God bless him and his family.  Rest well soldier...

28 Pretty crass there, Diversity. If you gave a shit about those guys, you'd look up the lyrics to "My Buddy," "Give My Regards to Broadway," "Buddy Can You Spare A Dime," or "It's a Long Way to Tipperary." 

They were some singing fools, too, maybe due to coming of age before broadcast music (although certainly not before its mass-marketing). Back when most mature living men were WWI vets, you couldn't have a picnic, pot-luck, party or go to the movies without having a sing-along. That's gone now. How those men loved to sing.

29

IllTemperedcur, that's a great observation.

 

I know the Korean War is considered the forgotten war in American history, but WW I could be added to that list.

There is a dearth of American books on the subject.

 

30 thanks for the idea comtus

31

Posted by: momma at May 05, 2011 08:26 PM (penCf)

There is no other word for that than awesome

32 My dad was 17 when he joined the marines.  Was in for 4 years (long enough to fight at Guadal Canal, hand to hand combat).  Left the marines and joined the Air Force.  Met my mom in England in 52, had me in 54 (yeah so now you all know how old I am).  Mom divorced him 10 years later.  He couldn't let go of the booze.  Miss him everyday.  He died in 88 of liver cancer.  Love you daddy.

33 WWII actually didn't have a whole lot to do with Wilson (beyond the paper-tiger League of Nations). In fact there are so many *Could'ves* in the start of that war it's almost pointless to discuss. But yes, WWI and II are essentially 2 parts to the same general conflict, which lead to the death of Europe as a legitimate power.

34

The OBL brain splatter pics will come out. You can take that to the bank.

...but not until September or October of 2012

35

Wow, 110 years old.

I bet he jerked off twice a day!

36 God bless Mr. Choules, and may he rest in peace.

37

Posted by: beedubya at May 05, 2011 08:58 PM (AnTyA)

By then it won't matter.  Most of the population has a very short memory.  The country will be in the shitter and that's all anyone is going to be thinking about.

38 Posted by: jewells45 at May 05, 2011 08:57 PM

God bless your dad.  Guadalcanal was hell on earth.  One of my uncles was there and he still has nightmares after more than 65 years.

39

But yes, WWI and II are essentially 2 parts to the same general conflict, which lead to the death of Europe as a legitimate power.

More specifically, it prevented Germany from ever being a superpower.

 

40

WW2 was not inevitable.  Hitler and Wilson teamed up to bring that one about.

Hey, what about me?

41 More specifically, it prevented Germany from ever being a superpower. Posted by: Ben at May 05, 2011 09:04 PM (DKV43) For which we should all say, Amen.

42 In Flanders fields the poppies blow
      Between the crosses, row on row,
   That mark our place; and in the sky
   The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
   Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
         In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
   The torch; be yours to hold it high.
   If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
         In Flanders fields.

If you had the ill fortune to draw Emma Sawyer for sixth grade, you had to learn to declaim that poem. Years later, some of us found out that when she was young and pretty, the love of her life had gone off to the War and never came back. It had only been 45 years. She did not forget him.

43
Posted by: Ben at May 05, 2011 08:52 PM (DKV43)



The thing that made the European/American thing click for me is that I own a first edition of Liddell Hart's Through the Fog of War. This particular copy used to be in the library of the US Army War College, and there's a typewritten, one-page review from a late-30s era US Army officer pasted in the front cover.

It's pretty funny. He's pissed off at Liddell Hart's open disdain for the American contribution to the Great War and especially to Pershing. The closing line in the review is "The more I see of the British, the more I admire the Filipinos."

44

Posted by: huerfano at May 05, 2011 09:02 PM (6zFxS)

My Uncle Mike measured mortar craters just after they hit from the other side of the Ashaw Valley, to determine the trajectory.

God Bless them, big time.

45 WWII actually didn't have a whole lot to do with Wilson (beyond the paper-tiger League of Nations). In fact there are so many *Could'ves* in the start of that war it's almost pointless to discuss.

But yes, WWI and II are essentially 2 parts to the same general conflict, which lead to the death of Europe as a legitimate power.

Posted by: Alex #11 at May 05, 2011 08:58 PM (87ceJ)

Wilson's moralistic cant followed by the most punitive settlement in the history of European warfare most certainly did have a whole lot to do with it.

How are they parts of the same general conflict?  At least one of the combatants in WW1 no longer existed after WW1.

46

More specifically, it prevented Germany from ever being a superpower.

Posted by: Ben at May 05, 2011 09:04 PM (DKV43)

They almost single-handedly won WW1.  Then 20 years later, they almost single-handedly won WW2.  If Hitler hadn't been quite so crazy, the whole continent would be speaking German.  That wasn't a superpower?

47 Ever since high school history, I've thought that WW I was not caused by the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, but that the various powers were ready to fight anyways and that was just the tipping point.  If Princip had missed, something else would have set it off. 

The gang of morons here know a lot more history than I do, can someone set me straight on this?

48

God bless  Mr. Choules and give comfort to his family.

...that's a pretty badass heritage to carry on!

My maternal ancestor John Murphy arrived in Virgina the from Dublin, Ireland in 1774.  Two years later he was fought for American independence. During the Civil war, my great great grandfather, John Klingler, fought for the Union.  My great grand uncle Peter Klingler, lost his leg in combat in WWI.  My father was wounded and captured at the Battle of the Bulge.  My oldest brother was KIA in Vietnam.

I'm thankful that because of men like these, I enjoy the blessings of freedom.

49 Yeah, Japan and Italy switched sides too, for what it's worth. Hungary, not so much, although it's still being discussed.

I'll tell you a dirty little secret: when there were a lot of WWI vets around, they were a little dismissive of the war experience of WWII vets. They definitely did not think the second war matched the first for ferocity and barbarism.  If you get into a bad mood, you can see their point. Damned unsporting of them, though.

So, the battle of Amiens (pronounced Ay-meenz in British) was so very particularly bad (several WWI battles had more deaths in one day than the US suffered in all of Vietnam), that it was forever known as "Bloody A" among its survivors. As language coarsened,  "bloody" was replaced by "fucking," and that is where fugginay comes from.

50

So, the battle of Amiens (pronounced Ay-meenz in British) was so very particularly bad (several WWI battles had more deaths in one day than the US suffered in all of Vietnam), that it was forever known as "Bloody A" among its survivors. As language coarsened,  "bloody" was replaced by "fucking," and that is where fugginay comes from.

In the Battle of the Somme the british had 60,000 casualties in the first 12 hours.

51 salute, soldier.  Go easy.

52

Ever since high school history, I've thought that WW I was not caused by the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, but that the various powers were ready to fight anyways and that was just the tipping point.  If Princip had missed, something else would have set it off. 

The gang of morons here know a lot more history than I do, can someone set me straight on this?

possibly. There were a bunch of wars preceding it, although minor in nature. The first and second balkan wars, the morrocon crisis, etc.

It's likely that it would have been impossible for Germany to make it out of the 20th century with out going to war with someone as it was on the rise and England, Russia and France wanted to contain it in their own various ways.

53 @50, I tend to agree; there was diplomatic de-stabilization in the 1890's that set the new alliances in motion. Britain, for the first time since Lepanto, allied with France; they were near war over Egypt and Sudan half a generation earlier. Many here will be surprised to hear that the United States was not always diplomatically linked with Great Britain.

You can't do better than Barbara Tuchman's "The Proud Tower."

54 These stories of elderly veterans always include the tidbit that the guy lied about his age in order to join.  It seems more likely that the armed forces were so desperate that they would take underage enlistees.

55 "Bloody A" among its survivors. As language coarsened,  "bloody" was replaced by "fucking," and that is where fugginay comes from.

Posted by: comatus at May 05, 2011 09:26 PM (W5ilH)

...and we always just thought the the A was for Army.

56

Both Germany and Italy didn't come together as unified nations until the 1870s. At that point there was no land area left in Europe to speak of for them to accumulate and the pickings outside Europe were mighty slim, too. Their long-lived disunity boned them, IOW.

The Japanese had it right when they said, "when we finally got good at the game of grab, england and france declared it over".

That's a fairly accurate description of what happened to both germany and japan at the turn of the century and had a lot to do with their resentment towards france and england

57

Rest easy sir, you are honored and appreciated.

In a foreign field he lay
lonely soldier unknown grave
on his dying words he prays
tell the world of Paschendale

Relive all that he's been through
last communion of his soul
rust your bullets with his tears
let me tell you 'bout his years

Laying low in a blood filled trench
killing time 'til my very own death
on my face I can feel the fallin' rain
never see my friends again
in the smoke in the mud and lead
the smell of fear and the feeling of dread
soon be time to go over the wall
rapid fire and the end of us all

Whistles, shouts and more gun-fire
lifeless bodies hang on barbed wire
battlefield nothing but a bloody tomb
be reunited with my dead friends soon
many soldiers eighteen years
drowned in mud, no more tears
surely a war no one can win
killing time about to begin

Home, far away. From the war, a chance to live again
Home, far away. But the war, no chance to live again

The bodies of ours and our foes
the sea of death it overflows
in no-man's land God only knows
into jaws of death we go...

Crucified as if on a cross
allied troops, they mourn their loss
German war propaganda machine
such before has never been seen
swear I heard the angels cry
pray to God no more may die
so that people know the truth
tell the tale of Paschendale

Cruelty has a human heart
every man does play his part
terror of the men we kill
the human heart is hungry still

I stand my ground for the very last time
gun is ready as I stand in line
nervous wait for the whistle to blow
rush of blood and over we go...

Blood is falling like the rain
its crimson cloak unveils again
the sound of guns can't hide their shame
and so we die in Paschendale

Dodging shrapnel and barbed wire
running straight at canon fire
running blind as I hold my breath
say a prayer symphony of death
as we charge the enemy lines
a burst of fire and we go down
I choke I cry but no one hears
feel the blood go down my throat

Home, far away. From the war, a chance to live again
Home, far away. But the war, no chance to live again
Home, far away. From the war, a chance to live again
Home, far away. But the war, no chance to live again

See my spirit on the wind
across the lines beyond the hill
friend and foe will meet again
those who died at Paschendale

A song of WWI by Iron Maiden.

58 57 These stories of elderly veterans always include the tidbit that the guy lied about his age in order to join.  _____________   That's because to have been around for something that happened a century ago, you'd have had to have been pretty young at the time, so there's a strong selection for those who were underaged back then. Duh.   Conversely, how likely is it now to find a 40 year old who lied about his age to enlist for WWI?

59

The serb assasin was actually a group called the Black Hand, a Serbian government terrorist group who's goal was the establishment of a greater Serbia through war, conquest and terrorism (sound familiar?).   There were many in the group who particiapated and tried to assasinate him, most failed, Princip was the successfuly one.

So please dont try and portray this a "lone man with TB".  It was an organised Serb government plan.

 

60 93 years after the end of WWI.  The last Civil War veteran died in 1959 - 94 years after the end of that war.  We should still have WWII vets with us until 2039.  Don't wait to say "Thanks" to one.

61 So let's think about this.  A member of a terrorist organization (their flag had a bomb, a poison bottle and a dagger in it) kills the heir to the throne of Austria/Hungary. Austria demands that Serbia hand him over or let Austria be part of the criminal proceedings.  Serbia refuses and Austria Invades and the Russians don't like that.  They attack  and the rest of the idiots join in.

Now, think about an scenario where a member of Al Qaeda kills the President Elect.  Pakistan protects the mastermind of the plot and the US demands that he be handed over. Pakistan refuses and we invade.  Russia or China don't like that and come to Pakistan's aid.  Wouldn't it be within our rights to see ourselves as the good guys?  Wouldn't it have been within Austria's rights to see itself as the victim and the good guy fighting terrorists protected by imperialists a-holes?

That Wilson got the US involved on the side of the greedy Brits and French is, perhaps, the worst Presidential decision in US history.  If Germany had won, they would have taken some land from the French (what's new), they would have taken some colonies form the Brits (Oh, how embarrassing!) and they would have made damn sure that the Bolsheviks got their ass handed back to them after their coup d'etat in Russia (actually a good thing).

The Germans were not nice but a whole lot of nastiness in the furture would have been avoided if we had not entered the war on the side of terrorist protectors.

62
That war killed masculinity in France and practically finished it off in Britain. France forever left its balls in the mud of Verdun. The Somme left almost an entire generation of British political, business, artistic, scientific and social leadership under the grass of northeast France.  (July 1, 1916.  Nearly twenty thousand British soldiers dead before lunch.  Over 35,000 wounded.  The insane practice of the Pal's battalions resulted in the deaths of nearly all the young men between the ages of 17 and 40 of an entire town or county.  We cannot imagine it.  )

After Verdun, the French would rather surrender than fight and the surrender of May 1940 is the proof.  Churchill alone managed to re-kindle British manhood enough in 1940 to fend off the Germans until Hitler and Tojo saved Britain by attacking Russia and us respectively. But the Somme finished off any meaningful British fighting spirit forever.  Montgomery's tentativeness in WWII is the proof of that.

 

63 I don't know if WW2 was "not inevitable".

Indeed. The German high command was always itching for a fight, but wanted it to initiate it a few years later so their preparations would be more comprehensive and better equipment fielded.  Hitler wouldn't wait, so they had to run what they brung.

If the high command had gotten their strategic delay, and had somehow managed to convince the Japanese to delay, the outcome could have been quite different.

64 They almost single-handedly won WW1.  Then 20 years later, they almost single-handedly won WW2.  If Hitler hadn't been quite so crazy, the whole continent would be speaking German.  That wasn't a superpower?

Actually, the Germans lost both wars very decisively due to their inability to use their manpower intelligently.

In both wars the Germans insisted on putting their best men together in elite units that they then squandered. They put incredible time and energy into choosing the best soldiers, training them, and then sending them into hopeless situations where they suffered massive casualties.

The cream of German fighting men were wiped out so thoroughly in both wars that the survivors simply couldn't get the job done. There's some cultural thing about Germans that makes them want to have all these badasses marching around and being filmed, which is impressive, but when they're all dead they don't serve any purpose anymore.

In World War II 75 percent of German submariners were killed in action. Most of their best pilots were killed and therefore couldn't train the newbies.

Germans are (were?) all about histrionic sacrifice instead of battle smarts.

65

So please dont try and portray this a "lone man with TB".  It was an organised Serb government plan.

I didn't mean for it to seam like that.

I know the story well, it wasn't the entire Serb govt that backed the black hand, just parts of the military.

 

i didn't use the phrase lone man, i simply was stating the fact that Princip is the one who finally shot and killed him.

66

The OBL brain splatter pics will come out. You can take that to the bank.

...but not until September or October of 2012

mulberry antony messenger
mulberry roxanne chocolate
mulberry mitzy hobo oak
mulberry mitzy hobo black

67 The Germans badly screwed the French after the Franco-Prussian War, that was one of the motivations for the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles (that was signed in the Hall of Mirrors where the Prusso-Germans had the French sign the 1871 surrender).

Also, because Germany itself hadn't been physically attacked and their armies, while badly hurt and on the run from the Final 100 Days offensive, came back in one piece as it were, they began to believe that they hadn't really been beaten and that they had been sold out (by business interests and the Jews). That's why in WW2 the Allies really wanted to take it into the German heartland with unconditional surrender to demonstrate fully that they taken a shit-kicking.

The Germans violated neutral Belgium's sovereignty and raped the country for three years; invented bombing of civilian targets from the air as a terror weapon and not for strategic reasons (like attacking factory production); started the use of poison gas; unrestricted submarine warfare; and encouraged the Mexicans against the US. The Hymn of Hate.

The Germans did have many African colonies... the ones we associate today with having been Portuguese until the independence of the '80s (IIRC) as Portugal got them as Britain and France didn't want the other to gain them.

I can't find a source that I read online so I can't find the original book to cite but although the first day of the Somme was bloody (the Royal Newfoundland Regiment from the then-colony and not part of Canada) was nearly all wiped out, the 20,000 figure (according to this source) was actually from the week or two around the offensive start as all casualty lists were compiled weekly (or biweekly).

68 My great Uncle was killed at the battle of Ypres. He sent some fairly graphic and telling letters home to my great Grandfather. My mother ended up many of the letters and they are quite chilling to read. Boy those young guys suffered on a regular basis.

69 I also remember being taught in high school history class that the Serbians did acceded to the Austrian demands but that as various nations' mustering schedules for reservists had already started that it was too late to stop. I also recall seeing a history class movie about a general "will to war" that pushed the inevitable claim.

I also forgot that the Germans were arming the Boers in South African War and the Boer War with the newfangled cordite smokeless powder in the German-supplied ammo making detecting the Boer commandos very difficult to locate. 

70 You call WWI a slaughter? How about that Spanish Flu I sent you during the war. Killed more of you than the war and did it in 18 monthes.

71 And the second-bloodiest war in history wasn't WW1 but was the Chinese Taiping Rebellion (although admittedly over 15 years but without WW1 technology). The fictional character Sir Harry Flashman V.C. described the laws of war in China as being "if it moves, kill it; if it doesn't, burn it."

72 OVERTHERE,OVERTHERE, SEND THE WORD SEND THE WORD OVERTHERE THAT THE YANKS ARE COMMING THE YANKS ARE COMMING THE YANKS ARE COMMING OVER THERE, May he RIP

73 #@62 Wow, you're even dumber than Che. 
Learn to read before making a public fool of yourself next time.