May 04, 2011
— DrewM I'd like to find an honest liberal to read but I've given up hope.
Here Washington Post blogger Ezra Kelin tries to show that the Ryan entitlement reform plan has not one but two "individual mandates".
Obvious question: Does the Republican budget have an individual mandate? Obvious answer: Of course not. Republicans think imposing a tax penalty on people who donÂ’t purchase health-care insurance is an unconstitutional assault on liberty.Correct answer: It has two.
...HereÂ’s how the Ryan plan works: If youÂ’re an individual whoÂ’s not covered by Medicare, youÂ’re eligible for a tax credit up to $2,300 to purchase insurance. If you donÂ’t purchase insurance, you get nothing. So, in practice, thereÂ’s a $2,300 penalty for not purchasing insurance. In essence, youÂ’re giving the government $2,300, and you only get it back if you buy health-care insurance. ItÂ’s slightly more roundabout than an individual mandate, but itÂ’s the same idea.
His plan for Medicare is even closer to an individual mandate. There, everyone has to pay into the system through payroll taxes. When youÂ’re 65 years old, you get a voucher that will pay part of the cost of health-care insurance. If you decide not to use the voucher, or the voucher is insufficient, all the taxes you paid into the system are forfeit. Either you buy insurance as a senior, or you face a tremendous lifetime tax penalty.
You see! Republicans are hypocrites and love mandates! They have twice as many as ObamaCare.
Of course, this only works if you define "mandate" as "personal choice to take advantage of a tax break/incentive or not". Actually, now that I read that, that's pretty much the exact opposite of a mandate.
I wonder if Klein thinks there's a mandate to have children. After all if you do, the government will give you a $1,000 credit. If you pay income taxes but don't have children you don't get that $1,000 back and in Klein's world, that's a mandate.
Of course this is all nonsense. As Klein admits, the ObamaCare mandate REQUIRES you to either show you have health insurance or they will fine you 2.5% of your income or $700, whichever is greater. No choice, no options just a requirement (aka a Mandate).
This is part of the problem that Ace wrote about earlier. It's simply impossible to engage in an honest debate when liberals simply feel no obligation to be consistent or factual.
One party is serious about dealing with our existential financial threat and one, along with their enablers in the media, are simply trying to score cheap political points.
Posted by: DrewM at
10:59 AM
| Comments (130)
Post contains 456 words, total size 3 kb.
And you won't. One cannot hold a "liberal" mindset and not ultimately get bit by a flaw in logic. So they are intellectually dishonest.
Posted by: dogfish at May 04, 2011 11:03 AM (N2yhW)
Get in line, suckas.
Posted by: Tex at May 04, 2011 11:03 AM (DhStW)
Posted by: Tweb at May 04, 2011 11:03 AM (57znu)
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 11:04 AM (mXBxH)
Posted by: Ben at May 04, 2011 11:06 AM (wuv1c)
Posted by: laceyunderalls at May 04, 2011 03:04 PM (pLTLS)
Ditto. Holy fricking ditto.
Posted by: MWR at May 04, 2011 11:06 AM (4df7R)
Posted by: Whatever at May 04, 2011 11:07 AM (L5sNt)
Switch to looking for fairies in the garden. There's actually a few photographs of those.
Posted by: Oldcat at May 04, 2011 11:08 AM (z1N6a)
Posted by: Anwyn at May 04, 2011 11:08 AM (hjLb5)
Posted by: Goober at May 04, 2011 11:08 AM (Q5+Og)
Posted by: inigo montoya at May 04, 2011 11:09 AM (5wsU9)
Posted by: Vic at May 04, 2011 11:09 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: robtr at May 04, 2011 11:09 AM (MtwBb)
Posted by: Whatever at May 04, 2011 03:07 PM (L5sNt)
Shit, you think we'll still exist in twenty years? You have way more confidence than I do!
Posted by: MWR at May 04, 2011 11:10 AM (4df7R)
Posted by: Vic at May 04, 2011 03:09 PM (M9Ie6)
They have all kinds of reporters there - Liberal AND Leftist!
Posted by: Oldcat at May 04, 2011 11:10 AM (z1N6a)
Peace.
Posted by: Ezra Klein at May 04, 2011 11:10 AM (GC5/b)
okay, here's how Big Oil get subsidized: Instead of paying 100% tax on their taxable income, Exxon pays only 41%.
So, as you can clearly see, ExxonMobil is being subsidized 59%!!!
Posted by: Ezra Klein, boy genius at May 04, 2011 11:11 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 03:04 PM (mXBxH)
Welcome to every other year since, oh, 1950.
Posted by: Oldcat at May 04, 2011 11:11 AM (z1N6a)
Posted by: Zombie Reagan at May 04, 2011 11:12 AM (yml48)
Posted by: Beto at May 04, 2011 11:13 AM (j5CHE)
I can't stand trolls. I can't stand the press. I can't stand pantywaists. I can't stand Obama. Wait, he's included in the last point. What was I saying again....
Hallelujah! Holy Shit! Where's the Tylenol?
Posted by: laceyunderalls channeling Clark Grizwold's meltdown at May 04, 2011 11:13 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: © Sponge at May 04, 2011 11:13 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: robviously at May 04, 2011 11:14 AM (6rLSO)
In essence, youÂ’re giving the government $2,300, and you only get it back if you buy health-care insurance. ItÂ’s slightly more roundabout than an individual mandate, but itÂ’s the same idea.
Slightly? That word doesn't mean what Klein thinks it means, along with the word "mandate".
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at May 04, 2011 11:15 AM (9hSKh)
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 03:04 PM (mXBxH)
Welcome to every other year since, oh, 1950.
The other party is the MEDIA. Where do you think guys like Sparky get their teleprompter notes? Shoosh.
Posted by: Goober at May 04, 2011 11:15 AM (Q5+Og)
Posted by: a. sullivan at May 04, 2011 11:15 AM (yml48)
Brought over from last poat:
Why is it so important to many of you that we do see it? Curiousity? Doubt that he's really dead? - Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 04, 2011 02:27 PM (SY2Kh)
It's called CLOSURE.
Ask anyone who's ever had a loved one disappear and the body is never found. Until you actually SEE proof that person is actually gone, you can't EVER completely reconcile what you've been told happened and what actually happened.
This monster ripped a hole in the very fabric of this country. If the people of this nation don't have an opportunity to see for themselves that he was, indeed, no-kidding taken out of the equation for good, we will NEVER be able to fully heal.
The fact that a picture is released DOES NOT MEAN that a person has to go and look at it - many people don't want to see the body of a loved one after they pass away - but the fact that they can IF THEY WANT TO makes all the difference in the world.
And there is nothing in the world like seeing the "boogeyman" - because for many people under the age of 25 who still remember that day, that is EXACTLY what he is - for what he really is. Just flesh and bone and subject to the same laws of physics and justice as the rest of us.
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at May 04, 2011 11:16 AM (5QW3T)
Oh, *mandates*? Those are awesome too.
Posted by: Barack Obama at May 04, 2011 11:16 AM (7BU4a)
Posted by: Ezra Klien at May 04, 2011 11:17 AM (yml48)
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 11:17 AM (mXBxH)
Posted by: Some Taxpayer at May 04, 2011 11:17 AM (7BU4a)
39 I think Man dates are fully constitutional, and I heartily endorse them!!!
Oh, *mandates*? Those are awesome too.
Pagin Reggie Love, Reggie Love, please pick up the courtesy phone in the Lincoln Bedroom.
Posted by: Goober at May 04, 2011 11:17 AM (Q5+Og)
Posted by: Dr Spank at May 04, 2011 11:18 AM (GC5/b)
Posted by: Barney Frank at May 04, 2011 11:18 AM (CpbrP)
A lot of those can be found in San Francisco.
Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at May 04, 2011 11:18 AM (1rHeD)
Clearly Klein is being paid as an adult for a child's make believe playtime.
Posted by: ontherocks at May 04, 2011 11:18 AM (HBqDo)
ARRGGGGHHHH.
Just got off of the phone with some punk kid offering to see if I “qualify” to save money with a federally-funded program to help me pay less in utility costs.
I tried to explain to this young man that every program like this is funded with TAXPAYER DOLLARS. He told me “No they’re not. They’re funded with money from the government.”
So I tried to explain to him that the government only gets its money by taking from taxpayers, and only 53% of people pay taxes. He told me I should be glad that we make enough to be able to pay taxes, and that these programs exist to help those who donÂ’t make enough to pay taxes.
So I started in again on him, and he told me that everything that I was saying was wrong, and if I thought that I knew everything about everything, even though I didnÂ’t, he didnÂ’t have time to spend talking with me anymore.
Which is why he’s working a phone bank for a program completely paid for with Skittle-scented unicorn farts, I guess. ‘Cuz he’s so smart….
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at May 04, 2011 11:19 AM (5QW3T)
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 04, 2011 11:19 AM (P+zzG)
If money is fungible (which it is), and your money is inherently yours, not the state's (as conservatives often claim (apparently dishonestly)), then Ryan's plans for us are at least as objectionably "socialist!" etc. as Obamacare.
The con he's pulled on you guys is amazing. Truly.
Posted by: oblig. at May 04, 2011 11:19 AM (xvZW9)
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at May 04, 2011 03:19 PM (5QW3T)
Was that punk kid's name Ezra, perchance?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at May 04, 2011 11:21 AM (d0Tfm)
Oh, and I'm really disappointed in my fellow comment writers. Taking until comment 37 to reference A. Sullivan on a posting on mandates? This is not the quality of writing that Breitbart comes here for!
Posted by: Kevin In ABQ at May 04, 2011 11:21 AM (BvTwT)
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 11:22 AM (mXBxH)
It worries me when Ace is inactive for several hours in the afternoon.
It means he's over-thinking something.
Or watching japanese midget amputee prOn.
Posted by: Soothsayer at May 04, 2011 11:23 AM (uFokq)
"Here's Klein's third paragraph put in context:
HereÂ’s how the Klein plan works: If youÂ’re an individual who buys a house youÂ’re eligible for a tax credit up of the interest paid. If you donÂ’t purchase a house, you get nothing. So, in practice, thereÂ’s a penalty for not purchasing a house. In essence, youÂ’re giving the government the amount of interest you would have paid, and you only get it back if you buy a house. ItÂ’s slightly more roundabout than an individual mandate, but itÂ’s the same idea."
Dumbass.
Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at May 04, 2011 11:23 AM (4YKHA)
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at May 04, 2011 03:19 PM (5QW3T)
Oh God. I think my head would have exploded. It's been that kind of day.
Posted by: MWR at May 04, 2011 11:23 AM (4df7R)
Posted by: Lance McCormick infused with gamma radiation at May 04, 2011 11:23 AM (bp264)
Posted by: nickless at May 04, 2011 11:23 AM (MMC8r)
Oh, *mandates*? Those are awesome too.
Posted by: Barack Obama
Word. Though they're tricky while in office.
Posted by: 'Father' Jim McGreevey at May 04, 2011 11:23 AM (326rv)
Posted by: kansas at May 04, 2011 11:24 AM (mka2b)
Was that punk kid's name Ezra, perchance?
He never would answer that question.
Wouldn't tell me how old he was, either.....
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at May 04, 2011 11:24 AM (5QW3T)
Which is why he’s working a phone bank for a program completely paid for with Skittle-scented unicorn farts, I guess. ‘Cuz he’s so smart….
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at May 04, 2011 03:19 PM (5QW3T)
Your tax dollars at work.....
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 04, 2011 11:24 AM (CpbrP)
Posted by: robtron at May 04, 2011 11:24 AM (DSeW+)
Posted by: Mad Mike at May 04, 2011 11:24 AM (AcQdz)
Posted by: AndrewsDad at May 04, 2011 11:25 AM (wg+CF)
Seriously, if you're this guy's boss, how do you not fire him after this?
Would you not be embarrassed?
Posted by: Roadking at May 04, 2011 11:26 AM (7Owot)
They and the WaPo were the only two polls to manage such high results, and with 34-40% approval ratings on the economy. Neither sample broke 700 voters. Both polls are a mess.
/I know it's a rhetorical, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 04, 2011 11:26 AM (P+zzG)
Posted by: kansas at May 04, 2011 03:24 PM (mka2b)
Short answer? No.
Posted by: MWR at May 04, 2011 11:27 AM (4df7R)
He is the host of meet the press!!!! He is not a commentator, he is a "journalist."
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 03:22 PM (mXBxH)
Actually, he is what is known as a shill.
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 04, 2011 11:27 AM (CpbrP)
Somebody pays that guy to write, and on the serious issues of the day, and it isn't satire? Seriously? A major publication you say?
And people wonder why this country is fucked? People like Ezra Klein taken seriously. By extension, their dream candidates, such as Obama.
Would anyone here invest in any enterprise ran by either of them? How about one that simply had poor enough judgement to employ them?
Posted by: The Stonecutters at May 04, 2011 11:27 AM (vKUhG)
Seriously, if you're this guy's boss, how do you not fire him after this?
Would you not be embarrassed?
Posted by: Roadking at May 04, 2011 03:26 PM (7Owot)
No.
Posted by: WaPo Admins at May 04, 2011 11:27 AM (4df7R)
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 11:28 AM (mXBxH)
Liberals and their mandates? You don't say.......
Posted by: Joefrog of The Stonecutters at May 04, 2011 11:28 AM (vKUhG)
MANDATE!!!!!
Posted by: Ezra Klien at May 04, 2011 11:28 AM (yml48)
He is the host of meet the press!!!! He is not a commentator, he is a "journalist."
Posted by: Dan at May 04, 2011 03:22 PM (mXBxH)
A "news collator."
Posted by: MWR at May 04, 2011 11:29 AM (4df7R)
Posted by: Dr. Ruth at May 04, 2011 11:29 AM (hyRD4)
Posted by: Ezra Klien at May 04, 2011 11:30 AM (yml48)
Jeez Drew, entitlements and mandates? Really?
Don't you know there's a big controversy over OBL photographs and how Obama can screw up even a major victory? How dare you post on something besides that!
Posted by: Log Cabin at May 04, 2011 11:31 AM (h+Bqe)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at May 04, 2011 11:32 AM (yml48)
Posted by: Goober at May 04, 2011 11:33 AM (Q5+Og)
Posted by: Ezra Klein at May 04, 2011 11:33 AM (W7ffl)
Posted by: Draft-dodging Larry O'Donnell, who dodged the draft at May 04, 2011 11:33 AM (65RBP)
Posted by: AmishDude at May 04, 2011 11:34 AM (04tn3)
Posted by: Ezra Levant at May 04, 2011 11:35 AM (jN/Z/)
The dishonesty emanating from Klein's post is palatable.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at May 04, 2011 03:15 PM (9hSKh)
It's palpable, my young friend.
Posted by: ya2daup at May 04, 2011 11:36 AM (0AClR)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at May 04, 2011 11:36 AM (5pIHA)
Ezra Klein didn't have the credibility to be a blogger, so he ended up at the Washington Post. Sad career arc, really.
Posted by: Lincolntf at May 04, 2011 11:38 AM (xMT+4)
It's fucking brilliant I tell you.
Posted by: © Sponge at May 04, 2011 11:39 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: Andrew "When it says 'Labia, Labia, Labia on the label, label, label" Sullivan at May 04, 2011 11:40 AM (0AClR)
I live in Massachusetts and that's exactly how the state mandate works here. If you have health insurance you get a 1099-HC form that allows you to take a deduction for having health insurance. The only way around it is to lie and say you have a 1099-HC when you don't. It would be exactly the same as someone making up a SS# for a fictional kid. The penalty is for perjury, not for not having health insurance. Oh, and the religious exemption? Yeah, you can claim that, but only if you paid no money for healthcare the preceding year. None. If you did spend any of your own money for any kind of healthcare for you or your dependents, you have to go before a state commission and get approval for the religious exemption.
Posted by: Jaynie59 at May 04, 2011 11:41 AM (/f9MS)
Posted by: mallfly at May 04, 2011 11:41 AM (bJm7W)
You'll might have better luck looking for gas under $4.00 gallon but do it quick!
Posted by: YIKES! at May 04, 2011 11:42 AM (AVpLf)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at May 04, 2011 11:43 AM (d0Tfm)
"Cuts in mandatory and discretionary spending, plus a spending cap that will force automatic spending cuts through a process called sequestration if the goals to reduce spending aren't met."
Corporate tax reform and subsidies are also on the table.
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 04, 2011 11:43 AM (P+zzG)
Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at May 04, 2011 11:43 AM (4YKHA)
This is the second time you've corrected this same mistake of mine,
. Hopefully, there won't be a third time.Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at May 04, 2011 11:43 AM (9hSKh)
You'll might have better luck looking for gas under $4.00 gallon but do it quick!
Posted by: YIKES! at May 04, 2011 03:42 PM (AVpLf)
Today's Post-It --
BHObama, November 2008:
"Under my plan energy prices
would necessarily skyrocket"
NOBama 2012!
Posted by: Andrew at May 04, 2011 11:45 AM (0AClR)
Ryan says this is what he thinks will be in the debt-ceiling deal:
"Cuts in mandatory and discretionary spending, plus a spending cap that will force automatic spending cuts through a process called sequestration if the goals to reduce spending aren't met."
1. Cuts as in cuts, or cuts as in no increases from year-to-year?
2. When do these cuts, discretionary in particular, commence?
Posted by: Soothsayer at May 04, 2011 11:45 AM (uFokq)
obama to 60m on OBL photos: "The risks of release outweigh the benefits. Conspiracy theorists.. will just claim [they] are doctored anyway"
CBS news
"The risks of release outweigh the benefits," Rogers said. "Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East."
Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at May 04, 2011 11:46 AM (4YKHA)
Ryan says this is what he thinks will be in the debt-ceiling deal:
"Cuts in mandatory and discretionary spending, plus a spending cap that will force automatic spending cuts through a process called sequestration if the goals to reduce spending aren't met."
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 04, 2011 03:43 PM (P+zzG)
I call "dibs" on the contract to furnish the EDTA for this!
Posted by: chemistry nerd - there are more of us than you suspect at May 04, 2011 11:48 AM (0AClR)
"According to other reports on television, one of the chief concerns was that the gruesome photos would spark violence overseas against Western targets. HuffPost's Sam Stein, on Twitter, quotes Obama as telling 60 Minutes: "The risks of release outweigh the benefits. Conspiracy theorists.. will just claim [they] are doctored anyway."
Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at May 04, 2011 11:48 AM (4YKHA)
People don't like teh mandate right? Well in that case, the GOP plan has a bunch of em.
Top notch analysis.
Posted by: kefka at May 04, 2011 11:49 AM (UwqBE)
Posted by: Mr Pink at May 04, 2011 11:50 AM (LGR9A)
Posted by: A.G. at May 04, 2011 11:50 AM (r1N2K)
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at May 04, 2011 03:15 PM (9hSKh)
It's palpable, my young friend.
Posted by: ya2daup at May 04, 2011 03:36 PM (0AClR)
You touch it, Kratos eats it. To each his own.
Posted by: Oldcat at May 04, 2011 11:50 AM (z1N6a)
1. Cuts as in cuts, or cuts as in no increases from year-to-year?
2. When do these cuts, discretionary in particular, commence?
#1: It would once again by done by the House and Senate Appropriations Committees, so someone would have to hold them accountable on this. But considering the bleeding from the last vote, I expect both R conferences would demand a greater number of immediate cuts for 2012.
#2: That depends on #1 and on whether they decide this is a placeholder or if they're going for a deal on all those items as written in the R budget. No way of knowing without seeing the context.
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at May 04, 2011 11:54 AM (P+zzG)
Anyone who pays the slightest attention to Klein is either a fool or a leftist tool, or both.
Posted by: Adjoran at May 04, 2011 11:58 AM (VfmLu)
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at May 04, 2011 03:15 PM (9hSKh)
It's palpable, my young friend.
Posted by: ya2daup at May 04, 2011 03:36 PM (0AClR)
You touch it, Kratos eats it. To each his own.
Is palpable like crunching figs? I get that we aren't eating them. Shoosh.
Posted by: Barry and the Swimming Apes at May 04, 2011 11:58 AM (Q5+Og)
Seriously, though, obviously the liberals are correct here. Best to spend as much money as possible, tax the economy into stagnation, and then just *not answer the door* when the collectors come!
What are you worried about? It'll work.
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 04, 2011 11:59 AM (bxiXv)
Anyone who pays the slightest attention to Klein is either a fool or a leftist tool, or both.
See General Rule.
Posted by: Barry and the Swimming Apes at May 04, 2011 11:59 AM (Q5+Og)
Posted by: MBM Crack Reporter at May 04, 2011 12:00 PM (LH6ir)
Posted by: MBM Crack Reporter at May 04, 2011 04:00 PM (LH6ir)
That should read "MBM Reporter on Crack"
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 04, 2011 12:05 PM (bxiXv)
Posted by: mallfly at May 04, 2011 12:09 PM (bJm7W)
Posted by: Bean Blossom at May 04, 2011 12:28 PM (MGmET)
Intellectual my ass.
Posted by: MarkD at May 04, 2011 12:35 PM (6CLxP)
hey to continue on poofy boy...some one ask his ky jellyness if that constitution thingie is over a hundred years old...i really am hoping for civil war...first up is that smirking semi idiot k-lying....
time for a revolution my man...not you boy grift ezra...
Posted by: bigus dikus at May 04, 2011 12:35 PM (n0C4a)
Posted by: chuck in st paul at May 04, 2011 01:05 PM (EhYdw)
Posted by: ExExZonie at May 04, 2011 02:41 PM (iTu2X)
But I guess tribalism is the most basic human urge and only the most elevated and enlightened philosophies aren't ultimately some version of it.
Posted by: AmishDude at May 04, 2011 03:34 PM (04tn3)
They work for the same guy (Beelzebub).
Posted by: ExExZonie at May 04, 2011 04:55 PM (DRR4t)
Posted by: Poland at May 04, 2011 08:11 PM (qDPnZ)
Posted by: worldgodshop at May 07, 2011 06:21 AM (ELbvE)
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Ezra Klein is a fucking child living in a man's world.
Posted by: Soothsayer at May 04, 2011 11:01 AM (uFokq)