1 meh, he's still 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x better than Obama. I'd be ok with him, Paul, Johnson, or Pawlenty.

2 Krauthammer was right. RINO bastard...

3 Just noting that I have heard journalists explain the "Right of Return" as "The right for Palestinian refugees to return to Palestine."

The key missing bit is the slight-of-hand where they're referring to 'the area' as opposed to 'the future state'.

IOW: They gloss over the fact that the Right of Return really means Palestinians returning into Israel, and they gloss pretty damn hard.

Still not good to be sucked into. Sigh.

4 You know ... what Republicans ought to do is run a black buy named Cain. That will get the conservative block votes.

5 Sheesh, if we can somehow get this Cain guy branded with a 666 behind his ear .. THEN ... THEN we got a shot at 2012. Baby, we got us a SHOT!

6 I know folks are claiming this is a disaster, but I don't think it will stay that way. Cain hits hard for points, as I say often.  But he needs to speed up his delivery, and clarify his position on Obamacare.

If the Republican nominee isn't 100% behind repeal of Obamacare, I'd rather join the Paultards than vote for him or her.  It's gotten that freaking bad.

7 Arrgh!!! He needs a new foreign policy team, stat. (Though I don't think he really has one now, given his non-plan for Afghanistan.) I'm not fully convinced we're completely boned, but it's going to be a nerve-wracking campaign, that's for sure.

8 This ain't gonna work......

9 ace's comments in the other thread have me trying hard to not write Cain off completely, but he's got a he'll of a lot of work to do before he could survive a debate with Obama... and that's not good when Obama's standard rebuttal is "Can't I just eat my waffle?"

10 he'll= hell Fucking iPad autocorrect...

11 This is too big of a job, and too hard and long of a campaign, for anyone who has not been preparing for years. Cain is a good man, I don't doubt it, but he's not ready for this promotion.... not by a long shot.

12

I think its bad.

First, he said he didn't have enough information to have an opinion on Afghanistan. Then, he says we'll have to wait until he's elected to understand his war on terror policy. Then, he demonstrates that he has no clue what the right of return is and says the Israelis have no problem with it.

That's a short window to display that much ignorance.

13 Well, he's got some real problems. Apparently he hasn't even bothered to familiarize himself with the basic stuff about foreign policy. He is exactly one hostile interview, with a pop quiz, from getting the reputation of a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. But as I said I think everyone has problems, so if I can assume "then a miracle happens" with those guys, I can assume maybe it will happen here.

14 >>>First, he said he didn't have enough information to have an opinion on Afghanista He already said that though. That is not new news. Furthermore I don't think it's "bad" for the primary, where I think conservatives are divided on Afghanistan. A punt is not always bad.

15 He is exactly one hostile interview, with a pop quiz, from getting the reputation of a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Cain passed that point with me right at the "Er....Afghanistan?" moment.

16 Ugh. 

17 >>>and says the Israelis have no problem with it. He didn't say that. He said "if they agree to it," which they largely won't, but sure, a hypothetical truce could invovle some limited number of returning palestinians. it'll never happen so we're free to speculate.

18 Cain ... murdered the innocent Abel. Marked for life. I'm thinking maybe ................... maybe we can find a better candidate? Just spitballing here.

19 His dodge on Afghanistan is a bigger problem IMO. He screwed the pooch on that early and is now boxed into defending his non position. Yeah, he was caught with his pants down on the "right of return" issue. Bad, but not insurmountable long term. In context with his lack of any discernible foreign policy positions make it very damaging.

20 I watched this morning and it was painful to see that "right of return" moment.  And that putz Wallace wasn't helping him at all.  Unlike the time what's his name jumped right in to bail Barry out of his "my Muslim religion" moment.  We are so doomed. 

Draft Ryan!

21 @20 I can't fault Wallace on this one. He tried to help him by defining right of return. The problem was simply that Cain doesn't know anything about the issue. Neither did I, until today, to be honest. But I am not running for president.

22 Just to highlight how troubling I find his lack of foreign policy....anything....the Jihadis attacked a Pakistani naval base tonight.

Things are hairy and getting full-blown dreadlocky.

23 His Afghanistan comments initially didn't bother me, since I'm sick of politicians outlining some grandmaster plan about complex issues before they're in a position to change them.  I wished he would have articulated a more general philosophy about foreign affairs, which wouldn't need policy specifics.  But I was willing to give it a pass early on.

After this, however, it just looks like he hasn't done his homework.

24 Ok.. so 64,000 dollar question..  When is St. Sarah gonna have a tough interview like this so we can dispel with the notion that she knows anything about foreign policy?

Sorry to bring this up.. but someone in one of the threads yesterday actually said he couldn't wait til Sarah got the chance to kick some ass in a debate.. and I went.. WTF?

If you guys are this hard on Cain - and you should be!  Why doesn't the same apply to other candidates?

25 and that putz Wallace wasn't helping him at all.  Unlike the time what's his name jumped right in to bail Barry out of his "my Muslim religion" moment.
Posted by: Peaches at May 22, 2011 11:28 PM (afUO
It's really not a reporters job to "help" candidates for President.

And it was Stephanopolis (a democratic opperative) who helped Obama with that one.


Draft Ryan!

With you there.

26 "Kicked Out?" The Palies made a deal with the Arabs to leave and give the Arabs an easier country to attack and they were promised the spoils after Israel was defeated. Tough! It didn't work out quite that way, the Arabs lost and so did the Palies, bad gamble, now go find a new country, you gave up yours when you sold your souls to the devil.

27 Furthermore I don't think it's "bad" for the primary, where I think conservatives are divided on Afghanistan. A punt is not always bad.

Posted by: ace at May 22, 2011 11:23 PM (nj1bB)

___

Right, that makes two shaky performances. I was not as impressed with his debae performance as others. I think a lot of people are looking for a savior and were easily charmed by Cain's debate performance. But its been ten years and has no opinion or plan on Afghanistan. 

Then, he has this performance, which he bombed all around in my opinion. And if you watch the clip. He back tracked on right of return. Wallace asked him about ROR and first he said he's fine with it, then he said if Israelis want it, then he said he doesnt see any reason the Israelis would have a problem with it. He's clearly fishing. And the more you watch him fish for answers, the more the charm wears off and there isnt much behind that charm.

28 shakey? i listened to it this morning didn't think it was shakey

The Right of Return moment felt a lot like Palin's Bush Doctrine moment. Very ouch. I really hope he does some cramming on these things (like maybe watch Netanyahu's lecture to Obama, as it covered all the major points) before doing any more interviews, as I consider Cain the most acceptible of what's currently available.

29

1) 98% the freaking US didn't know what the right of return was until Bibi schooled Bambi on it the other day.  That is, at least they'd never heard it presented any way except the MSM way.

2) If you've watched that video of Newt and McBotox spouting off about saving the planet from Global Warming, you're a liar.

30 What stood out to me in the interview..  He goes on and on about the Cain Plan.. blah blah blah.. then finally says - it's too late! WTF?  Gosh we shoulda elected you president instead of Obama, Mr. Cain.. then we'd be ok!

31 Why don't they allow refugees to settle in Israel, just only people who are past child bearing age?

32 @ 28: I think a lot of people are looking for a savior and were easily charmed by Cain's debate performance. -------------------------------- Bingo. A lot of projecting onto candidates what they WANT them to be.

33 On the plus side, I did really like what Cain said when Wallace kept pressing him for specifics.  He made the point that, until one has access to the same intel the President gets, it's kind of academic to be making detailed plans for anything.  That was good.

34 Well, in his defense, at least he didn't accuse the US of air raiding villages and killing civilians. The only thing worse than that would be getting elected President after a statement like that, then sending planes into Libya that air raid villages and kill civilians, without any other discernible goal.

35 The Right of Return, Chris?  The Right of Return?  You're asking me about the Right of Return?  The Right of Return?  The Right of Return?  No seriously, Chris, you're really asking me about the Right of Return?  Right of Return?  THE Right of Return?  You want to know about the Right of Return?  Chris?  Chris, you're asking me a question about the Right of Return?  Am I seriously sitting here listening to you ask me a question about the Right of Return?  Is this some crazy dream I'm having in which I'm sitting here for an interview being asked about the Right of Return?  Srsly, Chris, the Right of Return?  THE RIGHT OF RETURN?  You want to know everything I know about the Right of Return?  You want me to tell YOU everything I know about the Right of Return?  Why do you want to know about the Right of Return, Chris?  Wouldn't you rather hear all about my bankrupt PACs before getting a single word about the Right of Return?  Is it Right to Return to the Right of Return?  Will the Right of Return Return us to the Right?  I could sit here all day explaining to you all the nuances of the Right of Return but why do you want to hear about the Right of Return?  The Right of Return?  The Right of Return?  The Way of the Future?  The Right of Return?  The Right of Return?  The Right of Return?  Return of Right The?  The Right of Return?  The Right of Return?  Nruter fo Thgir Eht?  The Right of Return?  Well it's been great talking to you Chris!

36 >> then he said he doesnt see any reason the Israelis would have a problem with it. I don't think he said that, either. I agree with most of what you say and then you say he said something he didn't.

37 The only thing worse than that would be getting elected President after a statement like that, then sending planes into Libya that air raid villages and kill civilians, without any other discernible goal.

We stopped a civilian massacre.

And shut up.

38 hah on "Herman Cain."

39 We stopped a civilian massacre.

Chinless Assad giggles and giggles.

40 The right of return? The right of return? The question is moot. It's immaterial, it's unconscionable. We can't talk about a right of return until we start talking about a return of right.

41 He made the point that, until one has access to the same intel the President gets, it's kind of academic to be making detailed plans for anything.  That was good.

I call it a troubling cop out, Peaches.  To each his or her own.

42 I told Herman not to put on that balm. 

43

So if I can boil this down.

- He is pushing a plan for the debt that he admits that is too late to implement.

- He wont have a plan for the wars until he is elected.

- His Cain Plan has expired, and his war plans haven't been hatched

- Sooooo - we vote for him because... of... his...... smile, sense of humor?

44 You know what I'm going to do from now on, whenever someone asks me something I don't know? I'll just ask, "Excuse me, in what time-frame? By what parameters? " Then I keep asking shit like that until they feed me the stuff I need to know to understand what it is they're asking about.

45 42 We can't talk about a right of return until we start talking about a return of right.
___________

In Soviet Russia, right returns you!

46 Worked for me! Well... minus the sense of humor part.

47 He looked like Kramer's lawyer on the Seinfeld episode where Kramer was burned by spilled coffee.

48 Meh. If a guy doesn't know all the ins and outs of the Israeli-Palestinian problem, including all of the code words and talking points, I'm okay with that. I don't have a life, so I know about them, but he's got plenty of time to learn. Election isn't for two years yet.

49 @49
That's totally inappropriate. It's lewd, vesivius, salacious, outrageous!

50 Oh dear...another thoroughly embarrassing gaffe:

Cain, 65, who lives in suburban Atlanta, made his announcement at AtlantaÂ’s Centennial Park, urging Americans frustrated by the countryÂ’s direction to read the Constitution.

“Keep reading,” he said. “Don’t stop at life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.”

*sigh* 

There are no words.

http://tinyurl.com/42yqnka

51 38>> then he said he doesnt see any reason the Israelis would have a problem with it.

I don't think he said that, either.

I agree with most of what you say and then you say he said something he didn't.

Posted by: ace at May 22, 2011 11:43 PM (nj1bB) __ He absolutely says that. ---  11:08 mark ---.  He goes off topic for a few seconds and them comes back and says he doesnt think the Israelis would have a problem with it.

52 Another good one is "I reject the hypothetical." You can drop that shit on anything. Doesn't even have to be hypothetical. Afghanistan? "I reject the hypothetical."

53 Election isn't for two years yet.

We being selecting a nominee in six months or so.

He's not prepared.

54 A shame. Obama knows all about the Right of Return. Jews should return to the death camps. l

55 He looked like Kramer's lawyer on the Seinfeld episode where Kramer was burned by spilled coffee. Posted by: Other Crazed Internet Ron Paul Supporter at May 22, 2011 11:49 PM "That's totally inappropriate. It's lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous!"

56

why all the stupid ass pandering?

it's palin's to lose

palin/west...the dream ticket

stop with the dumbshit alrealdy with cain and boring ass tpaw

57 Ace (talking to girl at bar): So, this place seems kinda loud and crowded. Wanna go back to my place for some pancakes? Girl at Bar: Excuse me? In what time frame? Under what parameters?

58

>>>why all the stupid ass pandering?

>>>it's palin's to lose

If it's really Palin's to lose, then guess what?  We lose!

59 better than the normal answer. ... Hey, I'm not saying Cain is great, or that this is not a troubling lack of knowledge. What I am saying is that we kind of don't have enough candidates to keep disqualifying them. We're going to have to hope one of them gets better very quickly. The more who are alive, the likelier that is. I'm not happy with the field. It is what it is.

60

60  uh huh

sleeping pill t-paw will save the day.....yay!!!

61 >>>sleeping pill t-paw will save the day.....yay!!! Really? And the Blundra from the Tundra is going to save the day, huh?

62 If it's really Palin's to lose, then guess what? We lose! Posted by: Jeff B. at May 22, 2011 11:55 PM Regardless of who runs, I think, sadly, 2012 is gonna be a repeat of 2004. "Anybody but Bush!" couldn't rally nor inspire the Democrats to defeat a President they hated. "Anybody but Obama!" I believe will have the same effect. People want someone to vote for. I don't see anyone on the GOP side that inspires anyone to vote for them.

63 Ace (to girl at bar): I make really great pancakes! You should try some! Girl at Bar: I reject the hypothetical.

64

61 I'm not happy with the field

i really don't think anyone is

no one has really fired up the base yet but its still too early

65 Meh.  I didn't watch the debate that got everybody all fired up about Cain.  What I saw this morning did not make a convert of me.  It made me feel a little cringey.

66 Seriously, can we please keep the Palin-humping crap out of just one thread?  JUST ONE THREAD?  This shit has consumed every other thread on AoSHQ all day today.  Can we just have one candidate thread where she isn't injected?

67 I'm not happy with the field. It is what it is.
Posted by: ace at May 22, 2011 11:57 PM (nj1bB)

Don't worry, it's going to get worse: Jon Huntsman

68 And... we're back!

69 Romney is the candidate. Get used to it.

70 Palin is exciting, like car races, where you're pretty sure something horrific is going to happen at any moment. So yeah, let's go with that kind of seat-of-your-pants white-knuckle roller-coaster thrill-ride.

71

Here I think is part of it...  Cain was being interviewed on Fox.  I think he thought it would be friendly.

So we all know Chris Wallace is about as MSM as any interviewer on TV.  He will fill free to ask questions that push neophite pols into a box.  He is a tough interviewer and I don't think Cain was prepared... he just wasn't ready to defend his prior statements and newbile positions , especially on foreign issues.

This election will be about big issues, not specific policy...  do you believe in big government or small/limited government?  Flat tax vx progressive tax?  We have bigger issues frankly than what to do in the Stan and frankly I'm ok with Cain's flatout statement that we stand by Israel resolutely.

Lighten up people!

72 I don't know about the Cain Plan. But the Pain Clan sounds promising.
Cain should run on the platform of Embrace the Suck and Bring the Pain.
Fuck President. Cain for Lord Humungus!

73 PLUS... he'd offer the Palestinians ...NOTHING..  who else in politics in the GOP has come out and spoken the truth like this?  Anyone?

74 NOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo!!!

75

63  And the Blundra from the Tundra is going to save the day

nah, i'm just starting shit cause i was watching little girl soccer all day and missed the flames from earlier

i want to see the field grow with some serious contenders

as far as teh sarah goes, she gives a great stump speech but i really need to get a sense of how she is on foreign policy

76

98% the freaking US didn't know what the right of return was until Bibi schooled Bambi on it the other day.  That is, at least they'd never heard it presented any way except the MSM way.

I don't buy that.

They might not know the exact details, but it's been an issue for decades.  Remember the Beiruit bombing in the early 80's?

Shit, on could do nothing else but read the blogs of Michael Yon, Michael Totten and Strategypage and you'd know more about Afghanistan and the Israeli / Palestinian conflict than Cain apparently does.

77 >>>So we all know Chris Wallace is about as MSM as any interviewer on TV.

How did Chris Wallace suddenly turn overnight into the living embodiment of everything most hateful about the Evil Liberal Mainstream Media?  He's a completely straight-edged, fair interviewer.  Unlike the David Gregorys and Bob Schieffers of the world, he doesn't play dirty or inject awful liberal bias into his questions.  He just asks tough, honest, serious questions and lets his subjects sink or swim on their own merits (he reminds me of Tim Russert in that respect, who is seriously missed). 

But suddenly Herman Cain bellyflops on his watch and now he's Keith Olbermann?

78 So with Daniels out, is there any chance Pence will reconsider and throw his hat into the ring? 

79 I think I'd sacrifice a toe--and not just a little one, if Paul Ryan would about face.

80 I'm watching Paul Ryan now. It's like he's trying to hypnotize me into stealing his half-used soap.

81 1. Start exploratory committee.
2. Announce candidacy.
3. Give major interview on Fox News.
4. Study up on foreign policy.


Anybody else see a problem with this plan? 

82 24 His Afghanistan comments initially didn't bother me, since I'm sick of politicians outlining some grandmaster plan about complex issues before they're in a position to change them.  I wished he would have articulated a more general philosophy about foreign affairs, which wouldn't need policy specifics.  But I was willing to give it a pass early on.

After this, however, it just looks like he hasn't done his homework.

Posted by: jeremiadbullfrog at May 22, 2011 11:35 PM (Y5I9o)

Yeah I can overlook the Afghanistan comments since it is kind of a muddle but whiffing on the Palestinian 'right of return' question is like not having a ready answer to the typical interview questions "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" or "what is your greatest flaw?"

That said I still hope that he can get up to speed on foreign policy before another embarrassment.

83 Jackie Chiles begone!

84 "But suddenly Herman Cain bellyflops on his watch and now he's Keith Olbermann?

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 12:04 AM (hIWe1)"

Welcome to the "Anybody we don't agree with is a RINO" Club, circa 2011. 

85 Lighten up people!

Well the upside of the currently crappy field is that western civilization will probably collapse before we actually have to make a final choice among them.

86 The thing that scares me most about a Palin run is that I think too many of Palinistas couldnt handle defeat. If Palin lost a heated primary to a guy like Romney, they'd go all Hillbuzz Boyz; drop out, go third party, or vote Obama.

87 Pancakes?! Pancakes?!

88 Behold, a god who bleeds!

89 Of course I know what the Right of Return is, fool.  It's when you buy something and then you get home, you change your mind because it's not exactly what you wanted.  So you go back to the store and Return it.  But everybody knows the Jooos are stingy, so the Right of Return when you buy something from Jooos is not really a Right.  It depends on how good a mood that particular Joooo is in.

90 Welcome to the "Anybody we don't agree with is a RINO" Club, circa 2011.

Don't drag me into this.

91 Second look at Bobby Jindal?

92

87  Welcome to the "Anybody we don't agree with is a RINO" Club,

heh

i say heh since i am the only regular who can't be one

93 Not you , circa, da other circa.

94 (he reminds me of Tim Russert in that respect, who is seriously missed). 

Yeah, straight shooter, there.

95 @75 Good point. I admit that hearing that make my black, shriveled heart leap. Unfortunately, in context with his fishing and gaffe's I think it actually does more to reinforce the image of ignorance on foreign policy and applause-line-only speeches.

96 Damn Sock

97 Second look at Bobby Jindal?

Meh.  If we're going southern governor, then Perry.

98 98 Second look at Bobby Jindal?

Posted by: Y-not at May 23, 2011 12:07 AM (pW2o

He's ineligible.

Posted by: progressoverpeace

---

He was born in Baton Rouge in 1971. 

99 The "right of return" thing was a big flub. He looked shaky on FP. He needs to fire whoever he's got advising him on FP.
He did look over his head. You have to have some sort of guiding principle, like "no foreign entanglements" or "talk softly and carry a big stick" and its not clear that he does. I'd love it if he said "Victory" is his plan for A-stan. And what is victory "Whatever it takes to wipe out the Taliban."
He can recover, but he has to be clear and aggressive from now on.

100 90, Wrong. Most Palin supporters want to defeat Obama. They would crawl through glass and swim a river of alcohol to vote for my Dog.

101 He was born in Baton Rouge in 1971.

And is therefore, ineligible.

[Rimshot.]

102 Say, who was that guy who proposed a budget with a half-t-t-t-trillion dollars in cuts?  We ought to draft the shit out of that guy.

103 I never had a Godfather Pizza, so I can't tell. So far, the crust is looking a bit soggy.
Ick.

104 Meh.  If we're going southern governor, then Perry.

---

You'd rather go with a former Democrat whom most of the Texans are calling a political opportunist over Rush's golden boy? 

105 Who was it on Wallace's show today that was saying JEB may get into the fight?

106 I think he also wants to get rid of the Dept. of Energy, among other Depts.  Who was that guy?

107

I'm not going to agree that Cain had a belly-flop.  I watched the whole interview.  It was not as polished as I'd like, but I expect that this early on.

I am not saying Chris Wallace is anything but... he is MSM.  He is on FOX, but he is not conservative.  Now, he questions are fair and he did not do gotcha questions like the bigs will do later on.

My point was, I think Cain wasn't as prepared as he could have been especially on right of return and the way he had to make a statement on that.  He should have stayed with, "that's Israels' decision" and that is what it is.  He finally got to that, but after the hemming the freaked too many out on here...

He supports Israel.  He said it is up to Israel to decide their negotiations with the Palestenians.  He still has my support.  I don't see what the complaining is about....  there is no one in the field of candidates that would do any better right now.   ANYONE would be better qualified than who we have now. 

108

Not to American citizens.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2011 12:11 AM (G/MYk)

But he was and is.

Are we really going to do this again?

109 Not to American citizens.

To which Americans?

110 Wrong. Most Palin supporters want to defeat Obama. They would crawl through glass and swim a river of alcohol to vote for my Dog.

Yes, but would we vote for Mitt?

*ducks*

111 @109
OK, you're one of those.  That's really helpful. 

112 Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2011 12:11 AM (G/MYk)

I'm not going to debate this with you for the umpteenth time. I will simply say you are a fucking ass who has no clue what you are talking about.

113

But as I said I think everyone has problems, so if I can assume "then a miracle happens" with those guys, I can assume maybe it will happen here.

Not all miracles are created equal.

The "miracle" needed for a two-term governor of a blueish state who lacks name recognition and could use a dash of charisma is like the miracle of needing a quarter for the parking meter then finding one right there on the sidewalk.

The miracle needed to elect a guy who's never held office, never served in the military, is best known for being CEO of the 4th largest pizza chain in the US 15 years ago and seemingly has no grasp if the issues is like waking up with a boner immediately before Scarlett Johansson kicks in your door and demands to suck the first hard cock she can find.

114 Who was it on Wallace's show today that was saying JEB may get into the fight?

NO BUSHES.

115 I am not saying Chris Wallace is anything but... he is MSM.  He is on FOX, but he is not conservative.  Now, he questions are fair and he did not do gotcha questions like the bigs will do later on.

What?  He's part of the VRWC, dummy.  And I almost kicked his pansy ass for it.

116 Posted by: Herman Cain at May 22, 2011 11:43 PM (FYCiJ)

Denzel Washington for the movie? =P

117 116, Yes, but I would hate it. I don't think it will be an issue.

118 @110 Yup.

119 >>>Say, who was that guy who proposed a budget with a half-t-t-t-trillion dollars in cuts?  We ought to draft the shit out of that guy.

Yeah, shame he had to start out his national career by declaring that he wouldn't have voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act on national television.

120 One of the ideas that's popular among conservatives is that the Constitution can be interpreted as each person's "common sense" dictates. It's essentially a personal, subjective, idiosyncratic private constitution. Sort of a liberal idea. Anyway, people are pretty sure they can make up whatever meaning they like for "natural born citizen" and, *oddly enough!*, it now strikes them, post-2008, that the most natural common sense reading to give to the phrase is "born of two American citizens." And it's not like they came to that reading by deciding what would be most helpful to them, politically. Nope, just common sense.

121 Meh.  If we're going southern governor, then Perry.

Yes, his history of supporting individual choice in medicine gives us hope he would see through a repeal of Obamacare to completion.

122 Who was it on Wallace's show today that was saying JEB may get into the fight?

I've been hearing that all over the place lately.  Oh, please, no.

123 What's so sad these days is that no candidate has a chance of holding much of a coalition together unless they are a blank slate.

How many tough calls has Cain had to make as a Governor?  None, of course, since he never was one.  The few governors we have, that might run, are seen as 'Pure' in perfect inverse correlation to their power as governor*their time as governor.

The more tough calls they have had to make, the more likely it is that some of those calls were not perfect.

Rick Perry has very little power, constitutionally, so he's been able to amass a long term with only 2-3 grips from most Tea Partiers.  Daniels had a long, very conservative time in office, but with more power.  He's naturally made appointments that didn't go perfectly.

Romney was a failure as a governor, so it's actually legit that Tea Partiers can't stand him.

And with the shortest amount of governor experience, Palin, she's made fewer calls.  She's a blanker slate, since it's easy to make perfect calls when you're writing OpEds and twitter messages.

And then there are those like Cain, who I do not consider possible to really vet.

Alas, this is the hand we've been dealt, for some reason.  God must really enjoy underdog stories.  One of these yahoos is going to beat Obama in 2012, because otherwise we're screwed.

124 Are we really going to do this again?

Yes, apparently we are going to ignore the 14th amendment and Title 8 of the U.S. code because, you know, we don't want to risk having an anchor baby be POTUS.  Or something. 

125 Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 23, 2011 12:14 AM (SY2Kh)

I'll take Miracle #2 please.

126 >>>You'd rather go with a former Democrat whom most of the Texans are calling a political opportunist over Rush's golden boy?

Well yeah, actually, if it comes to that.  Jindal may be Rush's "golden boy" but he really DOES live up to the stereotype of "nerdy beta" that people are so eager to tag others like Daniels and Pawlenty with.  I'm not thrilled with the idea of Rick Perry at all, but calling him a former Democrat is a little disingenuous given that it's Texas we're talking about: pretty much EVERY Republican there is a former Democrat because that's the way the state was back in ye olden days.  (And hey, Reagan: former Democrat.) 

127 I have had enough Bushes for one lifetime. Let's do a brazillian.

128 >>> is like waking up with a boner immediately before Scarlett Johansson kicks in your door and demands to suck the first hard cock she can find. Damn it! That could happen! Right? Please?

129

Shit, on could do nothing else but read the blogs of Michael Yon, Michael Totten and Strategypage and you'd know more about Afghanistan and the Israeli / Palestinian conflict than Cain apparently does.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 23, 2011 12:04 AM (SY2Kh)

And more than pretty much anyone but the self-informed crowd. I don't think that makes the point you are trying to make.

130 Anyway, people are pretty sure they can make up whatever meaning they like for "natural born citizen" and, *oddly enough!*, it now strikes them, post-2008, that the most natural common sense reading to give to the phrase is "born of two American citizens."

And it's not like they came to that reading by deciding what would be most helpful to them, politically. Nope, just common sense.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 12:15 AM (nj1bB)

And wouldn't this have invalidated the presidencies of the first few Presidents too? But I'm totally sure they misinterpreted a document that they helped draft.

131 Yeah, shame he had to start out his national career by declaring that he wouldn't have voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act on national television.

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 12:14 AM (hIWe1)

What of it?  It was a vast overreach.  Check your Constitution.  And you're welcome for the candor.  I could swear I always hear Citizens whining about how politicians don't tell the truth.

132 I'm not thrilled with the idea of Rick Perry at all, but calling him a former Democrat is a little disingenuous

Nah, it's not disingenuous.  It's accurate. 

Don't forget, I'm a Christie-loving RINO. 

I think it's fair to say Jindal is the more reliably conservative of the two. 

133 I don't see Cain as actually being strong in terms of actual policy - he does a great job of outlining broad themes, but I don't think he's savvy enough in areas such as foreign policy to survive a debate with Obama. This is a fine example of that.

134 We're going to do it until it gets resolved.

Wooo.....powerful words.

Tell you what.  I'm going to sit over here and talk about deficits, defense, and energy.

You can sit over there and stroke Donald Trump's ass, ok?

135 >>> The real question is, "Are we going to ignore this serious problem again?" In what time-frame? By what parameters? Oh and ps yes.

136 The "miracle" needed for a two-term governor of a blueish state who lacks name recognition and could use a dash of charisma is like the miracle of needing a quarter for the parking meter then finding one right there on the sidewalk.

I left the quarter there.

137 Gawd damn....paging John Bolton.  We've got a whole field of GOP candidates flat-lining.

138 Scarlett Jo is old news. She got frumpy and moved in with Sean Penn.

139

oh man

you guys are starting to flame on this one too?

what is wrong with you rethugs?

what? do you all have a conservative checklist to knock out the rinos?

why can't your party weigh out the good points of the candidates and go from there instead of attack, attack, attack?  you are bloodying them up before the primary so bad that come the general build-up it'll be harder for them

140 >>>We're going to do it until it gets resolved.  The real question is, "Are we going to ignore this serious problem again?"

It's only a serious problem to you.  It's only unresolved to you.  The rest of the nation thinks people who raise the arguments you do are fucking lunatics.

141 Jindal in ineligible because he made an ass of himself while trying to give the Republican Response to the SOTU.

142
I think a lot of people are looking for a savior and were easily charmed by Cain's debate performance.

Yes. Michael Barone had the wetblanketedness to note that a rousing speech to the base is not the key to presidential victory.

143 I'm not thrilled with the idea of Rick Perry at all, but calling him a former Democrat is a little disingenuous given that it's Texas we're talking about: pretty much EVERY Republican there is a former Democrat because that's the way the state was back in ye olden days.  (And hey, Reagan: former Democrat.) 

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 12:16 AM (hIWe1)

So if I was a former Democrat who gave a dishonest response, you'd be on board the Rand Paul Express?

144 >>>And wouldn't this have invalidated the presidencies of the first few Presidents too? But I'm totally sure they misinterpreted a document that they helped draft Actually, no. There is a specific clause, no longer in operation, that basically granfathered anyone *alive* in the US as eligible for the presidency. They did that, of course, as none of them were "born in America,' AMerica just having been created a decade ago.

145 This Republican primary season is starting to feel like a giant game of Go Fish. 

146 I've been hearing that all over the place lately.  Oh, please, no.

Well, he was damned popular in Florida.

147 One of these yahoos is going to beat Obama in 2012, because otherwise we're screwed.

I just talked to God, and I have good news and bad news.

148 Posted by: Rand Paul, Racist Asshole at May 23, 2011 12:21 AM (1fanL)

Let's not even go don that path, bucko.

149 >>>What of it?  It was a vast overreach.  Check your Constitution.  And you're welcome for the candor.  I could swear I always hear Citizens whining about how politicians don't tell the truth.

It's getting hard to tell these days whether some of the socks are making joke points or serious ones.  I hope to god this was a joke.

If not, I look forward to the success of a candidate who runs on a "let's repeal the Civil Rights Act" platform.  Yes, even if he only opposes it on Principled Constitutional Grounds.

150 147, What we do is tickle them compared to what the MSM has waiting for them. If they can't handle a little shit from a group of has beens and never will bes then they are sort of fucked. What's most critical is that the MSM is not allowed to chose the candidate, like McCain.

151 Actually, no. There is a specific clause, no longer in operation, that basically granfathered anyone *alive* in the US as eligible for the presidency. They did that, of course, as none of them were "born in America,' AMerica just having been created a decade ago.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 12:21 AM (nj1bB)

Ah makes sense and I vaguely kinda remembered that they was some sort of grandfather clause that made Washington eligible. Still by preogressoverpeace's interpretation that would still imply that presidents after say 1840 may not have been 'natural born'

152 Hardly anyone knows about the "right to return" because the people of this fake land called PALESTINE have no right to return to something that was never theirs. 

153 ut, then, most people seem to think, these days, that American politicians holding political campaigns in foreign nations for foreigners is no big deal.

Nice conflation.

Let's return to the fact that Barack Obama and Bobby Jindal are both, if fact, natural born American citizens.

Prove me wrong.

154

160  What's most critical is that the MSM is not allowed to chose the candidate, like McCain

this right here

155

Scarlett Jo is old news. She got frumpy and moved in with Sean Penn.

ur teh ghey

156 Seriously, let's not debate these Afterbirthers. Let's just point and laugh at the freaks.

It's more fun and they won't be able to get their rocks off thinking they are fighting the good fight and saving the republic.

157 >>>You are out of your mind.

Sure I am.  I'm out of my mind, and not the guy who harps on and on about Obama being disqualified due to his personally-held, unique theories and constitutional interpretations about secret dual citizenship and "natural born" parents.  

158 165, Now, tell the truth. You would hit that like a semi truck on a slow deer.

159 you are bloodying them up before the primary so bad that come the general build-up it'll be harder for them

Posted by: navycopjoe at May 23, 2011 12:20 AM (EOu3d

A'yup.

160 >>>Still by preogressoverpeace's interpretation that would still imply that presidents after say 1840 may not have been 'natural born' Ah, true, if he's claiming natural born means born of two natural born American parents, then yeah, a lot of early presidents were ineligible.

161 When someone says that we can't let the MSM select the candidate, am I wrong in assuming that just means that we can't let them prevent us from running Sarah Palin?

Because that's the general vibe I pick up from those statements.

162 Although I don't know how that clause worked. I suppose if it deems and passes such people nbc then that takes care of it.

163 Navycopjoe--as I recall you are one of our few resident Dem morons.

And I recall everything being totally civil between Obama and Hillary a few years back.

164

Why so hostile?

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2011 12:17 AM (G/MYk)

Because it's fucking stupid.

If you aren't naturalized, you are natural-born.  That's it.  It may be unwise to elect someone who doesn't have ties to the US (and believe me, we're learning that lesson the hard way) but there is no ineligibility for Jindal.

165

okay look, everyone is mad so lets all take a break

everyone watch about 30 seconds of a t-paw speech to fall asleep and when you wake up fresh and rested we'll continue

166 Jindal is natural-born, but not natural-born natural-born.

167 171, you noticed that too. She is usually left out of the discussion of potential candidates. Even on fox Sunday I noticed she barely got a mention. They are all goo goo eyed about the gun grabber christie. Who by the way, aint runnin.

168 As to others, American dual citizenship wasn't accepted until recently, and EVEN TODAY, people naturalizing as Americans have to renounce all citizenships and allegiances in order to become Americans.

No, they do not.

Ask my wife.

169

173  thats a great point

i think its because no one saw him coming, everyone thought it was a hillary lock and then the msm turned on her hard

kind of made me laugh to watch that

170 Suckers!

171 181, I liked watching her cry, Phony heartless bitch.

172 "And I recall everything being totally civil between Obama and Hillary a few years back.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 23, 2011 12:28 AM (7utQ2)"

But that didn't work out too well for Hillary.

173 >>> you are bloodying them up before the primary so bad that come the general build-up it'll be harder for them. Uh huh. But while I fully appreciate the "anyone but Obama" idea, I'm solidly in the "We're completely boned unless we get someone spectacularly good in the White House, and even then we're still boned" camp. I'm more comfortable with the idea of the inevitable zombie apocalypse coming about under a Democrat.

174

What's most critical is that the MSM is not allowed to chose the candidate, like McCain.

The Vast MSM Conspiracy!  They elected McCain for us!  It wasn't our fault!

Please.  Know who elected McCain?  Old people, independents voting in open primaries, and squishy Republicans who had nobody else to vote for as the rest of the candidates- even thouse best described as "moderates" before they campaigned- all tried to out-conservative each other and split up the conservative vote.

I don't know where this "the MSM chose McCain for us" meme started, but it's bullshit.  I didn't like the fact that he won any more than you did, but he won because he got more votes when it counted.

175 No.  I mean two American citizen parents, possibly naturalized citizens.  That is what is required for the child to be a natural born American.

According to you, sparky.

Thanks for enlightening us.  Got anything on good diet plans or maybe an early tip on Belmont?

176 And my master stroke was appointing Horace Gray to the Supreme Court.

17 years later he wrote the majority opinion in Wong Kim Ark! All my evvvviiiilllll plotting finally paid off.

MWWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHA!

177 Sarah Palin:Katie Couric::Herman Cain:Chris Wallace

178 >>>As to others, American dual citizenship wasn't accepted until recently, and EVEN TODAY, people naturalizing as Americans have to renounce all citizenships and allegiances in order to become Americans. The way our society and government has felt about citizenship, family and sovereign exclusivity makes it perfectly clear that dual citizens were NOT included in the class of natural born citizens when written. If people think they belong (and that it's so obvious - which is insane) then it has to go through the courts ... some day. But, it's never the hill to die on, so ... Wrong, wrong, wrong. If someone has, as a child, the RIGHT of citizneship from another country (i.e., britain's laws say that Obama can, if he choses, be a british citizen), you are claiming that the operation of foreign law with NO ACTION REQUIRED BY THE CITIZEN HIMSELF can act to STRIP THAT CITIZEN OF HIS CITIZENSHIP. What absurdity! If I have a kid on a military base in Germany, that kid will be both an American citizen and most likely be eligible for German citizenship (depending on their law). Progress' dumb theory is that the kid can live his whole life as an American, never once even winking at Germany -- but we're supposed to vindictively apply the law of a foreign country to say that kid isn't a US citizen. All because he can't get over his six-time-discredited-by-now endless quest to prove this STUPID FUCKING LUNATIC CONSPRIACY THEORY. It never dies. It just keeps coming back as a more and more battered zombie.

179 Jindal's a natural born natural disaster planner.

180 My interpretation is perfectly consistent with the Constitution and our history because I am taking the traditional view.  

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2011 12:29 AM (G/MYk)

Check your Supreme Court rulings, and other historical interpretations.  Here's US A.G. Salmon P. Chase in 1862: 

... our constitution, in speaking of natural born citizens, uses no affirmative language to make them such, but only recognizes and reaffirms the universal principle, common to all nations, and as old as political society, that the people born in a country do constitute the nation, and, as individuals, are natural members of the body politic.

The Constitution is susceptible to many, and conflicting, interpretations.

181

187  i think what the msm helped mccain with was his war record being putup over and over.

come time for the general though it was attack and attack

182 "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;"

Which is not enforced in practice.  She has two passports.

Still, she was not natural born--but both my kids are.  And they are BOTH eligible to run for President someday, despite your divinely inspired take on what we should all know.

183 187, I saw the 24/7 coverage of him carrying his own luggage to fly coach on a commercial plane. What a comeback story! They sucked his old cock right up to the moment he got the nomination. Then he suddenly became too old, and he once had cancer etc. Now they are trying to stick Romney up our ass, not. falling. for it.

184 >>>"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;" Um, buddy? Did you take that oath? No, you didn't. Me neither. because people who are fucking born here don't have to take an oath. This is what you can't seem to wrap your head around. The unfairness of it all, this loophole that has been stupidly left open for Barack Obama.

185 Sarah Palin:Katie Couric::Herman Cain:Chris Wallace

OK--gotta keep in mind to not ask topical questions of aspiring Presidents.

186

165, Now, tell the truth. You would hit that like a semi truck on a slow deer.

I think you mean 146.  I would hit that like Arnold Schwarzenegger at the National Housekeepers Convention.

187 McCain won because he was running against losers of the same mold as those running this time. Second look at Ron Paul? *ducks*

188 199 LMAO

189 And my master stroke was appointing Horace Gray to the Supreme Court.

17 years later he wrote the majority opinion in Wong Kim Ark! All my evvvviiiilllll plotting finally paid off.

MWWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHA!

Posted by: Chester A. Arthur at May 23, 2011 12:34 AM (2f1Rs)

I knew I should've picked a Civil War vet for my veep.  Didn't figure on some jackass with a pistol and idiots with bad hygiene, though.

190 Here's US Immigration saying dual citizenship is perfectly fine.

What is Dual Citizenship: Dual citizenship means that an individual is a citizen of two countries at the same time. It is also possible to be a citizen of three or more countries. However, every country has its own laws regarding dual citizenship. Some countries allow it and others do not, while some countries have no particular laws regarding dual citizenship. Dual citizenship is not something that can be applied for. It is a process that happens when a person becomes a citizen of another country, in addition to his or her country of birth. Dual citizenship occurs automatically for some individuals. For example: a child is born in the United States to foreign parents. In this example this child has U.S. Dual Citizenship since the child is automatically a citizen of the United States and a citizen of its parent's home country. The same applies to children of U.S. citizens born abroad where the child is both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

191 200, I like Rand Paul, I don't think he is running.

192 I like Rand Paul, I don't think he is running.

I become a bigger fan with every passing speech. I am not happy about his old man screwing it up for him.

193 200, I like Rand Paul, I don't think he is running.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at May 23, 2011 12:39 AM (NtTkA)

Dammit!  I might if you people tried to draft me! 

194 Shaky interview? This was a disaster. Did you hear his response on the question of The Bloody Glove? A trainwreck.

195 It would be intresting to see a father and son in a Presidntial debate.

196

206  isn't rand paul a ginger?

can't let one of those in the white house, hell, he may have scandi blood too!!

197 209, A Viking in the whitehouse? How about Tarkington?

198 can't let one of those in the white house, hell, he may have scandi blood too!!

Throw him a herring, see what he does.

199 Shaky interview? This was a disaster. Did you hear his response on the question of The Bloody Glove? A trainwreck.

Posted by: sartana at May 23, 2011 12:42 AM (Y97KZ)

Cain said "If the glove don't fit you must acquit"?  He's over.

200 Posted by: James A. Garfield at May 23, 2011 12:38 AM (PHxOH)

All these years and you STILL DON'T GET IT! Guiteau was a patsy, a tool of the great Non-Natural Born Citizen Conspiracy. We would have loved to have used a guy like Czolgosz as they did years later but it would have been too suspicious. But a guy from Illinois? No one ever connected the dots.

You "natural born" citizens are so gullible. That is our greatest weapon.

201 I could get excited about a Rand Paul candidacy. I think he needs to finish out a term in the Senate first, though. Maybe his dad will kick the bucket by then and eliminate that problem as well.

202 How about Tarkington?

Hell, if want someone who can't win the big one, bring back Dole.

203 I like Cain.  I felt he was really honest in his interview.  I think a lot of people think they know about the Israel/Arab thing when in fact people only know what the media has allowed them to know.  Jews and arabs  included. 

204 Bob Dole don't like your attitude, Bob Dole has shit bigger than you.

205

187, I saw the 24/7 coverage of him carrying his own luggage to fly coach on a commercial plane. What a comeback story!

The point of that story was that his campaign was so dead broke that he lacked the campaign funds to fly by private jet.  Hardly a compliment.

You weren't duped by the MSM into voting for him.  Neither was I or the vast majority here.  Why assume that everyone else was?

Sure, they played up his war record... but then, so did he.

206 219, Because he won.

207 Bob Dole is ready! Bob Dole switched from Viagra to that other pill, so Bob Dole is ready whenever you are!

208 Pretty sure the State Department doesn't know what they're talking about.

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

209 Just as "natural born citizen" is not enforced.

According to your wall-eyed version, which, much like the ramblings of Ron Paul, is so much ineffectual gibberish.

Barack Obama and Bobby Jindal are natural born citizens according to existing immigration law.

One of my kids could technically carry THREE passports.  That doesn't make him any less of a natural born American.

210

I like Cain.  I felt he was really honest in his interview.  I think a lot of people think they know about the Israel/Arab thing when in fact people only know what the media has allowed them to know.  Jews and arabs  included. 

A lot of people aren't running to be the President of the United States.

The whole Bibi / Obama story was a semi hot-topic before the interview.  Did he honestly think he wouldn't get a question about Israel?  Would it have been too much to ask to spend 30 minutes reading the fucking Wikipedia page about the Israel / Palestinian conflict before the interview?

211

referencing the primaries and RINOS... we need fundemental reform in the early primaries ... no open primaries.   Too many squishy free thinkers narrowing the field to RINOs before most of the country gets a chance... and the MSM is all too helpful in pushing the RINOs on us and the Washington machine just loves giving us crap sandwiches.

Cain needs Bolton to throw in with him and Forbes too.  He needs certified small-government, conservatives on his team and hit the big issues.

This election is going to be about the biggest issues really... big-picture politics.  What kind of country is the USA?  Where do we go from here?  How can we undo what the progressive left has done to our judiciary and our regulatory structure since the 20's?  What do we do about our crippling entitlements?  Depressing.  We better not end up with 4 more years of Obammy...

212 Posted by: FUBAR at May 23, 2011 12:48 AM (1fanL)

My mom tells me that when she was growing up you could not be a US citizen and a citizen of another country.  You had to renounce your other citizenship in order to become an American citizen.  When I tell her people like Ram have Israeli and American citizenship she tells me I'm wrong that this is impossible as you have to renounce your citizenship to hold US citizenship.  I've given up, she doesn't believe me.

213 224, I agree, that threw me a little. I think he has the opinion that a President is CEO and will hire folks to handle such stuff. This is Partially true but you need to have have a Jepordy level of knowledge, not wheel of fortune.

214

Shaky interview? This was a disaster. Did you hear his response on the question of The Bloody Glove? A trainwreck.....

 

 

ha ah ah ahaa  bwahahaa..   Eleventy!

215 Damn sock again!!

216 It appears that the State Department doesn't know the oath of allegiance ... or doesn't care.  You tell me.

Oh, ok then.

Go out and find your flock, dude.  It's a question of faith with you, not a matter of law.

217 the donald broke with tradition tonight, he didn't say "you're hired" and he didn't say "you're fired" to either one.  He said "the winner of celebrity apprentice is".

218

219, Because he won.

I see- so you're saying that the MSM has had such vast power over the Republican nomination process that the voters were powerless to resist.

But this time, it'll be different.

219 You can't say trump isn't equal opportunity, he plucked that one skank straight from the ghetto.

220

Maybe you can do better with reconciling State's statement above and the oath of citizenship?

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2011 12:52 AM (G/MYk)

You mean you don't know?  It's obviously a plot to get Barack Obama elected.

221 No offense, but conservatives did McCain to themselves, by disqualifying every better candidate and being left with the guy who was "conservative" on paper only. His good abortion record, bullshit like that. And yeah, if the Huckabee voters realized it was a lost cause and were willing to vote for Romney, then Romeny would have won. If Romney's people gave up and voted for Huck, Huck could have... well I'm not sure he could have won but who knows maybe he could have. But everyone remained very stubborn that only the guy they liked would get their vote and so we got the default candidate who no one liked but who on paper, sort of, looked kind of halfway acceptable. This bullshit about "RINOs" or the media picking mccain... give that shit up. WHO EXACTLY WAS POISED TO WIN? Who did the RINOs and MSM skip over for McCain? After everyone good was disqualified, and milions deciced they could never vote for Romney, Giuliani, and even Thompson (????? on that one), yes, only three were left, and of the Weak Three, one won.

222 This election is going to be about the biggest issues really... big-picture politics.
Posted by: yip at May 23, 2011 12:51 AM (SyLEU)

All elections are...campaign in poetry, govern in prose.

There still has to be some idea that once the time for poetry is over the candidate has some command of the prose.

This is where a lot of the 'real' candidates like Cain, Bachmann and yes, Palin fail (to my mind). I'm not saying they can't do it, just that for whatever reason they don't.

Seriously, mixing a little wonkery in, just to show it's in the repertoire, would go a long way.

223 All these years and you STILL DON'T GET IT! Guiteau was a patsy, a tool of the great Non-Natural Born Citizen Conspiracy. We would have loved to have used a guy like Czolgosz as they did years later but it would have been too suspicious. But a guy from Illinois? No one ever connected the dots.

You "natural born" citizens are so gullible. That is our greatest weapon.

Posted by: Chester A. Arthur at May 23, 2011 12:44 AM (2f1Rs)

Look here, muttonchops, "Guiteau" is a French name.  You think that got past anybody?  My boy Benny Harrison knew all along.  All you did was get people to vote for Grover Cleveland, you scheming dandy.

Damn, son, that's why I wanted to be Senator instead.  That would have been great.  Sit around and talk all day and let someone else do the heavy lifting and get shot.  But no.

224 For God's sakes you'd think a true blue awesome conservative candidate was running -- like Christine O'Donnell -- and us stinking RINOs just thwarted her and insisted on McLame.

225

Breitbart was right.  Comedy gold from the morons & moronettes:

Posted by: Herman Cain at May 23, 2011 12:07 AM (1fanL)

226 So ... you think an American President holding THREE passports is Constitutional?

Did I say that?

Hint:  No.

The kid is, however, just as natural born as you or me.

You have a bit of a gap in your knowledge, it seems.  One does have to come over to the home team full time to get a security clearance.

227 I don't know where this "the MSM chose McCain for us" meme started, but it's bullshit. I didn't like the fact that he won any more than you did, but he won because he got more votes when it counted. Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 23, 2011 12:33 AM (SY2Kh) I think it originates with Rush. Here's a quote from 4 February 2008: "Do you folks understand that it is the Drive-By Media selecting our candidate? The Drive-By Media is the entity that is convincing everybody of McCain's character, of his robust stature, of his supposed greatness in various policy things and so forth. If you want the Drive-By Media to pick your candidate on your side and your party, then fine, but understand that that's what you're doing." Here's another from two weeks ago: "I'm just sick and tired of Democrat Party and the media picking our candidates. They picked McCain. They picked Dole. I'm tired of it." I usually assume that the people trotting out that "the media picked McCain" line are parroting Rush.

228 The truth is that my dog could beat Obama. He is that bad and there is no sign at all of improvement in the future. If anything that dumbass will continue to screw the pooch right up to election day. Why is Cain attractive to so many despite his deficiencies? Because, just like Trump, Cain is willing, eager even, to take the fight to Obama. The voters are desperate for a candidate who will passionately stand up for America and for conservative principles. For a lot of voters, myself included, Cain is currently that guy. Am I married to that choice? No. I will switch to whomever shows up with a better offering who is passionate about the country and who will proudly defend conservative policies and principles. It's no more complicated than that.

229 >>>It appears that the State Department doesn't know the oath of allegiance ... or doesn't care. You tell me. When did you take it? Got something you want to tell us?

230 234, Yes, I think with the Tea Parties and blogs like this. More people are educated as to what the MSM is spouting. They are called on their lies and bullshit by the new Media. Truthfully, were you here before the Obama election? I wasn't and neither were millions of others both blogging and starting their own blogs. So yes, this time it will be different.

231 Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 23, 2011 12:49 AM (SY2Kh)

to be honest, most Americans are wondering why we are getting involved in this issue, yet again.  Especially when the rest of the ME appears to be on fire and since BO went into Libya without the blessing of congress or the American people.  The libs are annoyed at BO for doing exactly the opposite of what he said on the campaign trail.  I'm told by them that today he said he didn't say 1967 borders.  I haven't watched tv today or seen any blogs.  If my friends are interpreting this correctly, if he is backtracking a day later when the speech is easily pulled from the WH website, that means he is starting to irritate his core voters.  They are mad about gitmo, about afghanistan and now about this.  And they too are wondering why the Arab/Israeli conflicts are in the forefront, yet again.  I mean today I heard sarcastic comments from bona fide obamabots about "what more important, our country and our economy or another peace prize for brokering an arab/israeli peace".....Now if the bona fide obamabots are saying this, how is he going to get them really back in his corner?

232 That is a FACT (if you can read).

De facto.

Tell me what that means and then tell me how that principle relates to the oath of citizenship and the practice of dual citizenship.

Also, I'm kinda sure that State and DHS share the same notes on the citizenship thing.

233 I know I'm a complete hypocrite for asking after the many heated Birther arguments I took part in... but why are you guys trying to debate a nutcase as if he were sane?

234 to be honest, most Americans are wondering why we are getting involved in this issue, yet again.

Yeah, can't imagine why (start with any World History text and work your way up from there).  And nice to know that you now speak for most Americans.

235 251, Which nutcase, there are many.

236

What do you think the Founders would have said about that? (and be honest)

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2011 12:54 AM (G/MYk)

In a speech before the House of Representatives in May 1789, James Madison said:

It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.

237 I know I'm a complete hypocrite for asking after the many heated Birther arguments I took part in... but why are you guys trying to debate a nutcase as if he were sane?

Can I use boredom as an excuse?

Football is now just 100 days away.

238 256, No Shit.

239 Posted by: James A. Garfield at May 23, 2011 12:56 AM (PHxOH)

When you think about it, this is all your fault and the fault of all your Civil War buddies. If you hadn't won the damn thing, the 14th Amendment would have never been passed. Then all the yammering "progressoverpeace" is always on about some bullshit Swiss pamphlet or whatever on what "natural born" meant in the 18th Century wouldn't have been rendered moot.

240 >>>Also, I'm kinda sure that State and DHS share the same notes on the citizenship thing. I think that you overestimate the administrative ability of the Federal Government. We needed to form a massive new department and cabinet post in order to get the FBI, CIA, NSA, and police departments to talk to one another and the best they have managed is color codes and text messages.

241 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 23, 2011 01:02 AM (7utQ2)

I'm not speaking for "most Americans", today I was told there are a couple of polls out there speaking for "most Americans" saying they don't want to deal with this.

242 Can someone tell me which super candidate we skipped to get to McCain? All I can think of is Thompson. Who, yes, would have been the best of the lot. Why the public refused to vote for him, I don't know. I think because they were already attached to Huck, Romney, Guiliiani and McCain, and refused to think, "hey, maybe this guy is a late entrant, but he's acceptable to me AND he's acceptable to my fellows so maybe strategically I should change my vote to him, my good 2nd place choice..." But no, conservatives refuse to do that, because we're too busy being Uncompromising and Awesome in our Integrity. So we do stupid shit, because stupid is righteous.

243

Seriously, mixing a little wonkery in, just to show it's in the repertoire, would go a long way. "Drew"

 

Buddy, I agree with you... 111%     Look, when I comes down to it,  I want another Reagan.  But I remember when Reagan was running and how the GOP and the process pounded him until he finally started to emerge as a real candidate.  Then we got stuck with the GOP est candidate as his vp, Bush, who I'll never forgive Reagan for picking. ( if he had any choice ).

It's going to be a slog whomever is our candidate and even then, I really think this election is Obamas to lose.  The MSM will continue to carry his water and the democrats and unions will cheat at every turn.  Not cause their evil... it's just their nature.. it's what makes them who they are.  Lyin', cheatin' bastards.

244 So, if he's a natural born citizen, with three passports, then he could be President ... with THREE passports.

Well, if we're all about oaths here....then he would be just fine since he would swear to defend the Constitution of the United States.

And with that, morons and assorted loons--I bod you a good evening.

245 I'm not speaking for "most Americans", today I was told there are a couple of polls out there speaking for "most Americans" saying they don't want to deal with this.

Can't let it go--

The "I heard" schtick is wearing thin, curious. 

246 Thompson + Amphetamines = Pres. Thompson

247 266, Thompson + Amphetamines = Pres. Thompson Not Quite, Thompson + Amphetamines = Myocardial Infarction.

248 Thompson + Jeri Thompson = Myocardial infarction.

249 Oldsailor + Jeri Thompson = myocardial Infarction with a smile.

250 Jeri Thompson + Lanolin = My Regular Tuesday Night Entertainment.

251 Hey! I am still thinking about running!

252 217 I like Cain.  I felt he was really honest in his interview.  I think a lot of people think they know about the Israel/Arab thing when in fact people only know what the media has allowed them to know.  Jews and arabs  included.



But a question on the right of return should be a slam dunk. The ROR is nonsense on stilts. Not only as a practical matter would it decimate Israel, but it's simply the worst kind of special pleading. Millions of people were displaced and thousands of miles of borders were redrawn in the aftermath of WWII. The only people we hear whining about it today are the "Palestinians." The real "two-state" solution is Israel for the Jews (and willing minorities) and Transjordan for the Arabs. Q.E.D.

253 It's going to be a slog whomever is our candidate and even then, I really think this election is Obamas to lose. The MSM will continue to carry his water and the democrats and unions will cheat at every turn. Not cause their evil... it's just their nature.. it's what makes them who they are. Lyin', cheatin' bastards. Posted by: yip at May 23, 2011 01:06 AM I think it's already lost for Obongo. The $4 gas, the inflation, the unemployment...there is only so much that the MFM can paper over. ANYONE can beat him. Really. The guy can't think on his feet. He can't speak articulately without a teleprompter. I could go on and on and on. You could too. He makes Carter look smart. And that's something I never thought would cross my lips. Ever.

254 dude... he's not that weak. He is merely vulnerable.

255 270 Jeri Thompson Ryan + Lanolin = My Regular Tuesday Night Entertainment.


FIFY--and thanks to 7/9 for the assist to WH.

256 Posted by: Chester A. Arthur at May 23, 2011 01:04 AM (2f1Rs)

Oh, that was YOU, eh?  I'm going to find Czoglosz, rip that bullet out of my guts, and shove it really far up his anarchist ass.  Then I'm going to beat him over the head with William Jennings Bryan.  Then I'm going to beat William Jennings Bryan over the head with you.  And then I'm going to put you all in a room and have them listen to Teddy sell them on Progressivism.  FOR A MONTH.  And then Taft will eat you.  Because he'll think you're a sandwich.

Gold standard forever, biznitches!

257

Ace... I agree with you... who did the GOP get robbed from when McCain was crowned?  I gave money , hard earned Texas cash to Thompson who I feel never really was in it and kinda played a lot of us.  I don' tknow.

But that doesn't nullify the fact that McCain was a failed candidate that would have done so-so versus Hillary, but had no chance against O. 

The GOP must get control of the early primaries and encourage real conservatives to apply.  Of course, there is a good debate there too.. whether the GOP is clear on what they want.

 

258 Next time, Ace, please try to link to someone who has at least a rudimentary understanding of the english language.  I had to fucking read that shit 6 times to make sense of it and get past the misspellings and other garbage.

259 Bob Dole says it's late. Bob Dole has a Boner from the 7/9 reference. Bob Dole is off to his Bunk.

260 dude...he has one major accomplishment. One. He is that weak. He is ungodly vulnerable. He is a hanging curveball asking to be smacked out of the park. I can't believe how many people think he is a formidable opponent.

261 I exist damn it!

Just because I can't point to any law or court case to prove it (in fact there are plenty of them that say I don't) that doesn't mean I'm not real.

I know I am real! I just know I'm a real category!

Help me, I want to be a real boy.

262

Breaking  news :

- since this thread started Mitt Romney raised another million dollars. 

263 281, Then bend over Pennochio.

264 If Fred! hadn't fiddledicked around so long getting into the race, and then hadn't looked like he was sleepwalking when he did get in he would have won. He was a goner before we even got the CA primary. I had to hold my nose and vote romney over juan mcvain.

265 The last three presidents to beat incumbents were all former governors. That's where the GOP should be looking. The choices so far aren't the greatest and I think we're a bit off-cycle for others (Christie, Jindal, etc.).

I could support Romney or T-Paw. I like Palin but she's damaged goods.

266 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 23, 2011 01:08 AM (7utQ2)

Tomorrow when the polls come out officially, I'll link them for you.

Stop attacking me personally, stick to the issues.  You are being very unfair.  I know you are probably an old unhappy person, but, that's not my fault.  lighten up a little bit, please. 

267 I still love you Curious, what are you wearing?

268 I'll sum up the last 10 threads here: we're fucked.

No one likes any candidate, we're all pissed, and that's that.  Guess that's the price we pay for being free thinkers.

269 >>>ANYONE can beat him. Really. The guy can't think on his feet. He can't speak articulately without a teleprompter. We all know that he's an empty suit, but in spite of all of it, he still polls consistently in the high 40s on policy and his personal favorability is usually 10 pts higher. Why? Because most people are unfathomably stupid and run like Pavlov's dogs to the sound of free shit. Add to that that the media will invariably spin in his favor, declare that he won every debate, even when he did nothing but stutter about waffles, lob him softballs at every opportunity (can we expect your next four years to be as awesome as your first term, in spite of all the hateful rhetoric from Republicans?) while quizzing Republicans on nuclear physics and how it applies to hypothetical reactors in Iran. The people who decide elections don't watch debates, research candidates, follow congressional votes, or even know the names of their local congress critter or even the Vice President. They, at best, watch e highlight reel on the 10 PM news, then vote for whomever the MFM says is most dreamy.

270 227 Posted by: FUBAR at May 23, 2011 12:48 AM (1fanL)

My mom tells me that when she was growing up you could not be a US citizen and a citizen of another country. You had to renounce your other citizenship in order to become an American citizen. When I tell her people like Ram have Israeli and American citizenship she tells me I'm wrong that this is impossible as you have to renounce your citizenship to hold US citizenship. I've given up, she doesn't believe me.

Posted by: curious at May 23, 2011 12:52 AM (k1rwm)

Well, from what I understand, the oath does require you to renounce your former citizenship/foreign ties.

However, just because you do so, doesn't mean that the foreign nation tears up your passport, or declares you not to be a citizen.

So I guess the original interpretation of this oath was you took the oath, became a citizen, and in doing so, renounced any and all former citizenshps, even if said nation didn't recognize it.

So, let's say I emigrate from Soviet Russia.  I take the U.S. oath of citizenship.  However, Soviet Russia still considers me to be a citizen, and my Russian passport is still valid (according to Russia.)

Now let's say that I end up spying for Russia, passing them U.S. military secrets.  And that I aid and comfort them in some hypothetical U.S. Russian war.

I would say that I am guilty of treason.  Aiding the enemy.  I don't think I would accept the arguement that because I still had Russian citizenship, I couldn't be guilty of treason.  I renounced my former allegiance to Russia.  The fact that Russia didn't tear up my Russian Passport doesn't give me an excuse here.

How does this fit in with Rham Emanuel?  I'm not sure exactly.  Did he have to seek out Israeli citizenship after he was born in the U.S.A.? 

 

271 I just found this site.  Seems like a good resource.

272 288, In the end we will be like Brothers and sisters. We can beat the hell out of each other but whoa to the stranger that attempts it.

273 So could Thompson have won with Palin?

274 I have to admit that of the entire field of candidates, and dropped candidates, Cain is the one I know the least about. That said he ain't inspiring the shit out of me. We haven't even gotten to the tough questions yet.

275 287 I still love you Curious, what are you wearing?


If you were logged on to Amazon.com, what would you buy, Curious?

276 Posted by: Leo Ladenson at May 23, 2011 01:28 AM (a/yDA)

An economics book that I can't find anywhere.

277 So could Thompson have won with Palin? Doubtful. He never looked like he really wanted to be there, or was giving it the 'ol college try

278 Dammit, I can't even change my sock, must mean I am tired. G'night ron's, Dream of big tittes or bigger peckers, whatever twirls your beenie.

279 296 An economics book that I can't find anywhere.


Freakonomics?

280

Fred's front porch campaign was a colossal failure. Every GOP voter doesnt spend their days surfing the blogosphere. Some retail politics is necessary. I recall Fred making a late entry into NH. He started in the fall, drove into to town with his caravan, did an event and receieved little attention. He literally walked around for a bit packed up and left.

He was also a regional candidate.  A lot of candidates have regional appeal, but Fred may no effort with some demographics. They thought just waiting until SC was a good strategy - never mind NH, IA, NV, MI - once we get to SC the real and true conservatives will get the ball rolling for Fred.

Rudy did something similar banking on delegate rich moderate states like FL, CA, IL and NY

McCain won because he had been campaigning for 8 years. He was a national war hero. He ate more corn dogs at more fairs in NH than his heart probably could stand.  Its happening now with Romney. Yes, he is sort of the "establishment" guy, but he's also worked the hardest. Name recognition is not some gift bestowed by the MSM. Guys who have been around the track a couple of times have a lot of skin in the game.

281 281 I exist damn it!
2011 01:19 AM (2f1Rs)

man said to the Universe:  "I exist!"  "However," replied the universe, "that fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

The heart of conservatism is that the universe doesn't owe you shit.  It's all on you, cupcake.

282 I'm sorry cain isn't inspiring.  He's just a regular guys with an amazing background in stuff that we need to address now.   If you look at his experience, his degrees, his working for the fed, this is all stuff it would be hard to explain to another candidate were they to become president. 

283 Posted by: Leo Ladenson at May 23, 2011 01:31 AM (a/yDA)

that is an interesting guess.  No a text book.

284 276 Posted by: Chester A. Arthur at May 23, 2011 01:04 AM (2f1Rs)

Oh, that was YOU, eh?  I'm going to find Czoglosz, rip that bullet out of my guts, and shove it really far up his anarchist ass.  Then I'm going to beat him over the head with William Jennings Bryan.  Then I'm going to beat William Jennings Bryan over the head with you.  And then I'm going to put you all in a room and have them listen to Teddy sell them on Progressivism.  FOR A MONTH.  And then Taft will eat you.  Because he'll think you're a sandwich.

Gold standard forever, biznitches!

Posted by: An irate William McKinley at May 23, 2011 01:16 AM (PHxOH)

If you had listened to me, asshole, you never would have been shot!  Roosevelt listened to me!  But no, you couldn't get over your anti-Italian shit.

285

Listen, if Cain flubbing a question about the right of return makes him un-electable, then what the hell are we even thinking about Romney or Pawlenty for? Haven't those two had bigger flubs in their careers? Hell, Romney continues to flub it up everytime he defends Romneycare, yet, he apparently is electable.

Same bs with the Rand Paul comments. The guy makes a comment about the Civil Rights Act, which apparently disqualifies him from being President. Meanwhile, we have a President who did about every anti-American thing one can think of and was so exposed for it during the campaign..yet he wins. We need to stop overreacting to a single mistake here and there and remember the guy in office is one giant, walking mistake who managed to win.

Messing up a question about right of return? Not nearly as bad as hanging out with Bill Ayers.

286 Here's my simple case for Pawlenty, on paper. it is important to please the four quadrants of the party, which are, on two different axes, social cons/religious voters <-----> more libertarian conservatives, and on the other axis, populist <-----> establishment. What Palin had initially was an ability to appeal to all four quadrants, even though that makes no sense. Her sexiness was an important subliminal factor here. On paper she was a devoted wife and Christian woman. In person she was va-va-va-voom. That latter thing was superficial but made her seem more libertarain than she was. Also, the idea of Alaska as a Wild West place played into that. Anyway, T-Paw is similar, because he's also really really fucking STACKED. No, kidding. However, he appeals to more establishment and secular people like me, because he has a good record. He's not just ideological or a platitude spouter. He did shit. On the other hand, he is in fact an Evangelical Christian, a fact that social cons and the religious seem to be studiously ignoring. As far as the populist thing: I don't know. Oddly enough, though, an article that Palin's supporers were circulating called him a populist. My point then is, assuming he can overcome his own El Guapo of a lack of charisma or perceived toughness, on paper, he has the strongest possibility of appealing to the four quadrants. No one might be in love, but everyone could be, I think, fairly happy. I do not see another candidate doing this. I suppose Cain could, but I only suppose that because I have so little information about him. SO it's really an "I can't yet rule it out" situation. And this is what really bothers me about conservatives. We're so fucking stupid that we insist on WINNNNNNINNNG over each other, and thereby losing as a group, instead of accomodating each other and saying, "Okay, let's look at all of our number 2 picks and see if we can find some commonality on our number 2's." That is the exact bullshit that led to McCain as candidate, instead of us checking our Number 2 choice and finding out, "Gee, we all have Thompson as our Number 2; maybe we should stop insisting on WINNNNNIIINNNNG over fucking each other and maybe try to work with each other as allies rather than fucking enemies to be defeated and humliated." Note that my theory assumes, possibly incorrectly, that T-Paw can overcome his perceived weakness.

287 297 So could Thompson have won with Palin?

Doubtful. He never looked like he really wanted to be there, or was giving it the 'ol college try


Just like McCain. McCain wouldn't take the hard stands against BHO--particularly dropping out of public financing. And the campaign suspension, oy! When I first heard about it, I thought: (1) he must really be acting on principle, but (2) what the hell can he do? He's not in any relevant leadership position in Congress. It looked a little desperate. And then it turns out that it was all Steve Schmidt's idea. Schmidt's to blame.

288 McCain was the best candidate we had since Thompson wasn't serious about running. Though you wouldn't realize it from reading some of the posts here, McCain's a conservative. No one is going to be the ideological TRU CONSERVATIVE the Internet crowd wants - everyone has made ideological concessions at some point for political reasons. It's how politics work.

I know this point has been made in the past, but Ronald Reagan would have been ripped apart by most of the people who post on this site. Things like the abortion bill would have placed him solidly in the "RINO squish" department in most posters' minds. But that's how it works these days - if you stray from their vision of what a conservative is then you're a RINO, even if those same criticisms can be leveled at a certain candidate from Alaska and the guy who is supposed to be the benchmark for the office.

289 Note that my theory assumes, possibly incorrectly, that T-Paw can overcome his perceived weakness.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 01:35 AM (nj1bB)

Which is that he sucks.

290 295 If you were logged on to Amazon.com, what would you buy, Curious?

299 Freakonomics?



I see what you did there.

291 I'm sorry cain isn't inspiring.  He's just a regular guys with an amazing background in stuff that we need to address now.   If you look at his experience, his degrees, his working for the fed, this is all stuff it would be hard to explain to another candidate were they to become president. 

Posted by: curious at May 23, 2011 01:31 AM (k1rwm)

I don't mean he isn't an inspirational figure just that his performance in answering questions, which is all I've seen of him basically, hasn't been inspiring.

292 305

Listen, if Cain flubbing a question about the right of return makes him un-electable, then what the hell are we even thinking about Romney or Pawlenty for? Haven't those two had bigger flubs in their careers? Hell, Romney continues to flub it up everytime he defends Romneycare, yet, he apparently is electable.

Same bs with the Rand Paul comments. The guy makes a comment about the Civil Rights Act, which apparently disqualifies him from being President. Meanwhile, we have a President who did about every anti-American thing one can think of and was so exposed for it during the campaign..yet he wins. We need to stop overreacting to a single mistake here and there and remember the guy in office is one giant, walking mistake who managed to win.

Messing up a question about right of return? Not nearly as bad as hanging out with Bill Ayers.

Posted by: Rich at May 23, 2011 01:34 AM (qUHCW)

I'm with you, brother.  At some point we have to stop eating our own.

293 Posted by: Rich at May 23, 2011 01:34 AM (qUHCW)

I was shocked when mccain was the nominee.  And, had he not brought palin on board it would have been a way bigger landslide for BO.  she made him not go down in historical oblivion or worse a historical loss.

I've read and been told by so many republicans that romney is the candidate and that's that which they say is "why everyone is declining to run, cause they all know this already".   that's very disheartening to hear since BO has set a precedent that whatever you say on the campaign trail stays on the campaign trail so romney saying everyone will get an obamacare waiver might, by the guy who originally brought us romenycare,  might be a campaignism and he might say "well I said that then but this is now and since BO did this all the time, that's how it's going to be".  

294 Messing up a question about right of return? Not nearly as bad as hanging out with Bill Ayers.



Agreed x 1000. But if he's going to run without a record, then his delivery has to be flawless (see 200 , which it wasn't this morning.

295 then it turns out that it was all Steve Schmidt's idea. Schmidt's to blame. No, its mccain's fault. he didn't have to buy in. and mccain refused to fight. who the fuck in their right mind rules out using revrun wright? whoever has been saying that fighters are attractive right now is right. our candidates have been spineless pussies for the most part. ooooh, i might not get invited to wagyu beef nite and the stevie wonder concert if i'm mean to demonrats. asshats

296 315 then it turns out that it was all Steve Schmidt's idea. Schmidt's to blame.

No, its mccain's fault. he didn't have to buy in. and mccain refused to fight. who the fuck in their right mind rules out using revrun wright? whoever has been saying that fighters are attractive right now is right. our candidates have been spineless pussies for the most part. ooooh, i might not get invited to wagyu beef nite and the stevie wonder concert if i'm mean to demonrats. asshats

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at May 23, 2011 01:41 AM (INcFc)

 

McCain is shit on toast.  Without wagyu.

297 315 No, its mccain's fault. he didn't have to buy in. and mccain refused to fight. who the fuck in their right mind rules out using revrun wright? whoever has been saying that fighters are attractive right now is right. our candidates have been spineless pussies for the most part.



Hard to argue with that.

So I won't. 'Night, 'rons.

298 306 Here's my simple case for Pawlenty, on paper.

it is important to please the four quadrants of the party, which are, on two different axes, social cons/religious voters <-----> more libertarian conservatives, and on the other axis, populist <-----> establishment.

What Palin had initially was an ability to appeal to all four quadrants, even though that makes no sense. Her sexiness was an important subliminal factor here. On paper she was a devoted wife and Christian woman. In person she was va-va-va-voom. That latter thing was superficial but made her seem more libertarain than she was. Also, the idea of Alaska as a Wild West place played into that.

Anyway, T-Paw is similar, because he's also really really fucking STACKED.

No, kidding. However, he appeals to more establishment and secular people like me, because he has a good record. He's not just ideological or a platitude spouter. He did shit.

On the other hand, he is in fact an Evangelical Christian, a fact that social cons and the religious seem to be studiously ignoring.

As far as the populist thing: I don't know. Oddly enough, though, an article that Palin's supporers were circulating called him a populist.

My point then is, assuming he can overcome his own El Guapo of a lack of charisma or perceived toughness, on paper, he has the strongest possibility of appealing to the four quadrants. No one might be in love, but everyone could be, I think, fairly happy.

I do not see another candidate doing this. I suppose Cain could, but I only suppose that because I have so little information about him. SO it's really an "I can't yet rule it out" situation.

And this is what really bothers me about conservatives. We're so fucking stupid that we insist on WINNNNNNINNNG over each other, and thereby losing as a group, instead of accomodating each other and saying, "Okay, let's look at all of our number 2 picks and see if we can find some commonality on our number 2's."

That is the exact bullshit that led to McCain as candidate, instead of us checking our Number 2 choice and finding out, "Gee, we all have Thompson as our Number 2; maybe we should stop insisting on WINNNNNIIINNNNG over fucking each other and maybe try to work with each other as allies rather than fucking enemies to be defeated and humliated."

Note that my theory assumes, possibly incorrectly, that T-Paw can overcome his perceived weakness.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 01:35 AM (nj1bB)

You do know, Ace, that you're guilty of exactly what you're accusing all of us of doing, right?  You've decided Pawlenty is your guy and you've done nothing but throw every other conservative that posts here under the bus for supporting any other candidate.  Step. The. Fuck. Off.

299

I think he threw in the towel when he grabbed the mike from the lady who "feared Obama".

That's when I felt betrayed by him and started to fear it was over for us...

300 If I were a Polar Bear I would vote for T-Paw because he really cares about us.

301 I realize that it's your place, and you're welcome to ban me.  Shit, I would, if someone said that crazy shit to me.  Your call, Ace.

302 well if you want two candidates each with a brass set then you have to go with Sarah and michelle.  they will not "play well with others" like the boys are all willing to do.

303

Ace, I agree with your overall idea of picking our number 2 and what not, I just don't have Pawlenty as the number 2. That weakness you're talking about, seems to be a big weakness to me. You actually have to be able to generate SOME excitement, have some real stage presence and charisma especially to unseat an incumbent.

I could have actually seen myself getting excited about Thompson, because Thompson could comman a stage and had some real pizzaz (sp). Pawlenty, oy. Maybe he shocks me in future debates and proves to be someone who can command a room. But right now, I don't see it.

304 322 I realize that it's your place, and you're welcome to ban me.  Shit, I would, if someone said that crazy shit to me.  Your call, Ace.

Posted by: tangonine at May 23, 2011 01:46 AM (x3YFz)

A plaintive cry for help.

305 Maybe I'm in an alternate universe but I'm hearing ace say that he hasn't decided who the candidate should be and that it may be too early.  Unless I'm hearing what I want to hear but I've read everything he's written and that's the feeling I'm getting, that he doesn't have a favorite horse in the race yet.

306 The people who decide elections don't watch debates, research candidates, follow congressional votes, or even know the names of their local congress critter or even the Vice President. They, at best, watch e highlight reel on the 10 PM news, then vote for whomever the MFM says is most dreamy. Posted by: Rudy Gulianni at May 23, 2011 If we were in normal times experiencing normal circumstances I would agree with you. But we aren't. It sucks out here. It sucks more than most of us have experienced in our lifetimes. We have all experienced recessions. This is worse by several orders of magnitude than any recession in the past fifty years. If a Republican were president the MFM would be calling it a depression. No one has to turn to the MFM for their marching orders anymore and, truth be told, they don't. The network news of days gone by is all but dead. Walter Cronkite is history. They idiots watch American Idol instead. No amount of water carrying by the MFM can change the fact that every day the US dollar is worth less, that unemployment is still godawfully high and that buttloads of people have lost their homes. Fair or not (and this time it IS fair) the sitting president is always blamed for economic crap. And we have world class economic crap being served up for dinner every night of the week. No change in the menu is on the horizon. The voters are chomping at the bit to vote against Obama. Give them ANY reasonable alternative at all and he is toast. The MFM can't fix stupid. Not this time. No way.

307 325 322 I realize that it's your place, and you're welcome to ban me.  Shit, I would, if someone said that crazy shit to me.  Your call, Ace.

Posted by: tangonine at May 23, 2011 01:46 AM (x3YFz)

A plaintive cry for help.

Posted by: TexasJew at May 23, 2011 01:47 AM (L8Let)

I believe you mistook the "plaintive cry for help."  I really meant to say go play a game of hide and go fuck yourself. texasjew.  Glad I could clear that up for your therapist.

308 >>>You've decided Pawlenty is your guy Not really. I do a lot of counterfeiting of my own desires in an effort to accommodate people who seem unwilling to return the favor.

309 I think at the least we know our opponent probably won't be primaried!

310 329 >>>You've decided Pawlenty is your guy

Not really. I do a lot of counterfeiting of my own desires in an effort to accommodate people who seem unwilling to return the favor.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 01:49 AM (nj1bB)

Why?

311 Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 01:35 AM (nj1bB)

Forgive me Ace, not that I disagree with what you wrote because I don't, but that's an analysis for an open year election. It's a fine one but we're running against an incumbent. I think Pawlenty is a virtual lock at this point and can win, exactly because of his lack of charisma. Basically he's competent and he doesn't piss people off. If Obama was a blank slate in 2008 then Pawlenty is a white board.  He doesn't fire people up but he doesn't need to and he can pick an attack dog for VP. When he's in a debate with Obama he can just answer every bit of nonsense with " Well, maybe I can't make a great speech  but I can get things done. I already have." Obama can't make promises anymore and Pawlenty doesn't have too.
Eventually everyone will come around to him, if Palin doesn't run and I don't think she will.

312

Kznextzone...

 

I'm right there with ya on that one... McCain grabbing that mic and saying, no, no,... that's not right showed me more than I already knew, that he was a failed bit.  The dems and MSM were playing for keeps and McCain was acting nice and mainstream for the Independants. 

We want a fighter.  Someone to take it to the dems.  Hell Ace, put Pattons' speech up.. that's what I want from the GOP.  Fight  for our country and what is good about it and kill the progressive left off.  Show them for the pieces of shit that they are.

We don't want to be socialist Europeans.  We want America back.  Kill the beast!  Washington DC is the beast and must be dethrocked ( or something)

313 >>> he doesn't have a favorite horse in the race yet. I have a weak favorite, on paper, and it's only on paper, because he does have to settle his own account. Yeah, that seems to be Pawlenty, for lack of anyone else I can point to and say "That person can unite the party." I guess I would go with Romney or Cain, too, obviously, depending. I don't love T-Paw though. I thought he failed to do himself much good at that debate. Either he gets his shit together or it will be Romney or, who knows, Bachmann.

314 I think at the least we know our opponent probably won't be primaried! Oh, i don;t know. i still think its possible hillary will resign due to some "principled" stand and primary his ass. but then again, i thought she would stay a senator. more power there than sec state

315

I believe you mistook the "plaintive cry for help."  I really meant to say go play a game of hide and go fuck yourself. texasjew.  Glad I could clear that up for your therapist.

Posted by: tangonine at May 23, 2011 01:49 AM (x3YFz)

I have no comment on your rant.

316 >>>Why? Because it does me no fucking good if I get "my guy" and you hate him and therefore are not really supportive. It also doesn't do you much good if your gal wins and I hate her.

317 I dumped my real candidate in 2008 when I realized he was unnaceptable to so cons. I didn't give a shit he was pro-choice. I knew social cons did, though. So I dumped him.

318

I get the reason to dislike Palin, especially as a candidate. I also agree with Ace that she's unelectable. The favorability polls tell me so.

But for the love of god can one of the experienced, qualified candidates talk a little more like she does when it comes to being on the offensive and calling a spade a spade, isntead of pussy-footing around the issue so much.

319 Ace, on paper?  Really?  what a throwback to the early 1990's.... you know, before AlGore invented the interwebs...

320

"Not really. I do a lot of counterfeiting of my own desires in an effort to accommodate people who seem unwilling to return the favor." Ace, if you don't like Cain and think he's going nowhere, just say so dude, It's OK.

321 @305 I'm kind of with you, but a candidate for President has to sell people on a vision of the future. Look how everyone waxes poetic about Reagan, in spite of his flaws. At the end of the day, it all comes back to the "Shining City on the Hill". Obama won on "Hope" and "Change" (in addition to McCain's inept campaign and an adoring media). There's not a person on earth who can tell you what hope and change is, but they still vote for it. Cain is trying to paint the same broad vision, but he's falling down on credibility. When people asked Reagan about Russia, he said, "we win, they lose". When people questioned Obama's foreign policy chops, he did his Mid East/ Europe tour and got pictures taken with leaders. Both examples are essentially meaningless, but it's enough for the evening news highlight reel, which is all most voters care about. Cain was asked about Afghanistan and his answer was "I don't know". Even if that is an intelligent answer, the highlight reel people won't get it. When he's asked about the debt limit, he goes with an applause line, then contradicts himself by saying it's too late for his plan and he doesn't have an alternative plan. He's asked about RTR and fumbles around. None of this builds confidence and it all plays into the "he's got no political experience" meme that the MFM likes so much.

322 Posted by: Conservative Phantom at May 23, 2011 01:48 AM (ub509)

I think you vastly underestimating the media and overestimating the American people.

323 331 329 >>>You've decided Pawlenty is your guy

Not really. I do a lot of counterfeiting of my own desires in an effort to accommodate people who seem unwilling to return the favor.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 01:49 AM (nj1bB)

Why?

Posted by: tangonine at May 23, 2011 01:51 AM (x3YFz)

And, Ace, you're not really that "accommodating."  Several folks, myself included, have posted positively for other candidates, yet you're the first one to drop in and "unacommadatingly (that's a word?)" blast us for our opinion.  So don't be dressing up in the white robe of neutral, because you're not.

It's ok, though, I don't expect or even want you to be mister "I don't have an opinion because people might get mad" at all.  In fact, a heated debate is good, just don't do the bit about "accommodating."  It's small.  You're better than that.

324 340 Ace, on paper? Really? what a throwback to the early 1990's.... you know, before AlGore invented the interwebs...

Posted by: yip at May 23, 2011 01:55 AM (SyLEU)

___

 

Keep talking like that and I'll hit you with my nunchucks.

 

325 337 >>>Why?


Because it does me no fucking good if I get "my guy" and you hate him and therefore are not really supportive.

It also doesn't do you much good if your gal wins and I hate her.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 01:54 AM (nj1bB)

My gal is Herman Cain.  I'm thinking he won't be too thrilled about the sex change.

326 338 I dumped my real candidate in 2008 when I realized he was unnaceptable to so cons.

I didn't give a shit he was pro-choice. I knew social cons did, though. So I dumped him.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 01:54 AM (nj1bB)

Ron Paul!!

327 You guys might think I'm totally nuts but I'm thinking that the republican candidate hasn't emerged yet, may not even be in the cross hairs or on anyone's radar.  Isn't that how we got BO and it was effective.  The times put her on a sunday magazine cover saying she would be the next president.  I have to say, that cover pissed off a lot of people, and she wasn't was she?  I'm  telling you, the republicans are playing this one close to the vest and we aren't going to see the real candidate emerge until all this drama is played out.

328 I think it's a bit ironic that people are tossing in the towel on Cain this early. They want some super-smart, unbeatable candidate to go up against Obama?

Obama.  Not Einstein, not David Gregory.  Obama. Sans teleprompter.

Bachmann could tear up Obama in a debate. Palin could tear up Obama in a debate. Cain could tear up Obama in a debate. We don't need an impossible dream candidate, we just need someone with decent principles upon which to base their thinking.

Running the country is not like trying to find a cure for Cancer while unicycling downhill and juggling phials of nitroglycerine. By the time any decision point hits the President's desk, all the experts have boiled it down to a few options, and then the President chooses. I don't want another ditherer in chief, thanks.

Right now the nasty shzt in the restaurant leftover container in the back of my beer fridge could beat Obama, so buck up, stop worrying, and let's see how this plays out.

329 348 You guys might think I'm totally nuts but I'm thinking that the republican candidate hasn't emerged yet, may not even be in the cross hairs or on anyone's radar.  Isn't that how we got BO and it was effective.  The times put her on a sunday magazine cover saying she would be the next president.  I have to say, that cover pissed off a lot of people, and she wasn't was she?  I'm  telling you, the republicans are playing this one close to the vest and we aren't going to see the real candidate emerge until all this drama is played out.

Posted by: curious at May 23, 2011 02:00 AM (k1rwm)

On his futon bed, under his framed signed photo of President Obama, Jon Huntman sleeps the sleep of the Just....

330

Posted by: tangonine at May 23, 2011 01:57 AM (x3YFz)

___

I think all the candidates get beat up around here pretty good. It may be upsetting to some that this isn't 24-7 cheerleading lik some other sites. I know a few, monolithic, group think "real" con sites treat people Palin and Cain like they shit roses, and cant handle dissent.  Just stating something obvious like Sharon Angle is kind of dumb and COD is a terrible candidate causes apopletic rage. Which candidate doesnt get riciduled? Its equal opportunity thrashing.

 

 

331 I have to say I do expect more than just the usual memorandum hand wringing from you Ace.

332 Notice Obama never gets the pop quiz.

333 I think you vastly underestimating the media and overestimating the American people. Posted by: Little Lebowski Urban Achiever The 2010 midterms say otherwise.

334

ditto K-bob.

 

I like Cain a lot and the more I hear him, including todays interview, I like him.  He deserves a fair hearing. (gloves)  Herman is a real conservative.

AND time is on our side... it's still a long time to go.  If gas goes up more, Obama really is up against it.  Some how, I see gas coming down and an announcment that we're out of A-Stan before the election coming.  IF the Brits are out, we're out.  Leftards rejoice, conservatives rejoice, middle America, heh,  veterans and A-Stan casualties hardest hit.

335 @348 Oh how I wish you were right! The trouble with that theory is that the primary is 6 months away. If they ain't in in the next few weeks, then we end up with another Teh Fred! campaign or it's a true dark horse who gets trampled by the others while trying to gain name recognition.

336 Ok, Ace.  It's midnight here in flyover land.  As i've said multiple times tonight:  Thank you for your site.  I value you and your opinion, however wrong it may be!  I have a tendency to go off, but I appreciate the fact you haven't banned my ass yet.

For the rest of you that think I'm sucking up:  Go fuck yourselves.

Night!

337 >>>Ace, if you don't like Cain and think he's going nowhere, just say so dude, It's OK. I think Cain is okay. I also think he has been shaky and further it's been 15 years since he managed a large organization. 15 years. Long time. Since then he's been managing a tiny staff of, what, 2 or 3? But yeah, I do think it's important to at least consider him since so many people are ga-ga for him. If that's what we compromise on, so be it. alexthechick said, and I think this may be right, that all of these sudden-fire candidates, Trump and Cain, are really "placeholders for Palin." If she doesn't run, and that's who they insist on, and he seems sort of plausible, fine.

338

Too late. Cant spell for shit.

339 312 I'm with you, brother. At some point we have to stop eating our own.
_______

But they're so magically delicious.

340
The 2010 midterms say otherwise.

Posted by: Conservative Phantom at May 23, 2011 02:05 AM (ub509)

yes, but they have been so neutered by the administration that it appears BO is not the least bit afraid of losing.  I'm waiting for all these elected freshman to remember who put them their and show some intestinal fortitude.

341 You guys might think I'm totally nuts

You had me at hello!

342

kissing up to Ace isn't so bad... its' a great blog afterall...

343 The 2010 midterms say otherwise. Huge BUT: the repubs are consistently snatching defeat from the hands of victory. See the budget and debt ceiling shenanigans

344 Right now the nasty shzt in the restaurant leftover container in the back of my beer fridge could beat Obama, so buck up, stop worrying, and let's see how this plays out. Posted by: K~Bob Nail. Head.

345 @352 'Memeorandum hand wringing'. I mean really Ace, a post like this I expect from Charles Johnson.

346 >>>You guys might think I'm totally nuts but I'm thinking that the republican candidate hasn't emerged yet, may not even be in the cross hairs or on anyone's radar. The only candidates who may step in are, in decreasing order of likelihood: Bachmann (almost certainly will) Palin (almost certainly won't) Ryan (almost certainly won't) Giuliani (almost certainly won't) Christie (very nearly absolutely certainly won't) I can't think of anyone else.

347

For all the Epic Internet Battles I engaged in during the 2008 primaries, I didn't even attend the MN caucus.  I was something of a Fredhead, and by Super Tuesday it was clear that he was done.

That left Romney, Huckabee, and McCain... and I didn't have enough of a preference for one of the three to drive the 5 blocks to vote.

For all McCain's faults (and they were many), he had a fairly solid record on fiscal and defense issues.  That doesn't excuse his Mavericky RINO bullshit on everything else, but one would be wrong that in some respects he had a conservative streak.

With Romney I just didn't buy the act and didn't trust him.  He claimed to be a fiscally conservative warrior backed by business experience, yet in IA he was pro-farm subsidy, in MI he was pro-auto bailout, in FL he favored increasing Social Security payments without saying how he'd pay for them, etc.  Whatever he felt a particular crowd wanted to hear, that coincidentally was his position.  On social issues, he was questionable.

With Huckabee we had another "compassionate conervative" who was conservative on social issues, but little else.  He was far too populist, and his being suckered by jailhouse conversions that led to pardons didn't speak well of his judgement.

In the end, I doubt any of the three would've beat Obama, but we'll never know.  Point is- in that three-way race between McCain, Romney and Huckabee, who should I have been inclined to pick under the "most conservative candidate who can win" rule?  I didn't have an answer then, and don't now.

The overdue point is- if we don't quickly narrow this down to a two-person race, we'll probably fuck ourselves.  Again.

348 Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 02:09 AM (nj1bB)

thaddeus mccotter?

349 * but one would be wrong to deny that in some respects he had a conservative streak.

350 >>>Memeorandum hand wringing'. I mean really Ace, a post like this I expect from Charles Johnson. What does that mean? I'm to be a 24 hour spin machine? A happy words machine? No thank you. Enough of that is required in this odd job that when I don't absolutely have to do it I don't want to.

351 >>>thaddeus mccotter? Ahem... why would you say that?

352 Posted by: curious at May 23, 2011 02:00 AM (k1rwm)

You're wrong. Most of these people are looking around and see an incumbent on one side and Romney's pile of cash on the other and say to themsleves" What the fuck am I a masochist?" Nobody is coming. The only people who will be in this race are the ones with nothing to lose. I think Huntsman, Pawlenty, and Bachman  are in because they figure finishing second to Romney, who will surely lose, sets them up as the favorite for 2016. Cain and Paul are in it because they have no reason not to be. Palin would be risking everything on a long shot. She won't do it anymore than Huckabee.

353 363

kissing up to Ace isn't so bad... its' a great blog afterall...

Posted by: yip at May 23, 2011 02:07 AM (SyLEU)

I have to kiss up to Ace, at least once in a while.  He's saved me from several bad movie choices.

354

I can't think of anyone else.

Rick Perry maybe?

355 "I think Cain is okay." Fair enough Ace, sorry for the CJ reference.

356 348Isn't that how we got BO and it was effective.
___________

Not quite. BO had been in everyone's thoughts since giving that speech in '06.

357

Ban the Heretic! Ban the non-believer to the Church of The Dennis Hopper!

358 Rick Perry. I also thought John Thune bailed out too early. I wonder if he is second guessing himself. Thought he was under-rated.

359 hollowpoint, right, maybe rick perry, put him before Ryan but after Palin in terms of likelihood. Honestly I think we're wishcasting new candidates but the fact is we know the field, plus Bachmann.

360 Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 02:11 AM (nj1bB)

well he was on red eye a lot.  And I heard him on a radiio show a lot.  He is very funny and very very intelligent.  He's not the best speaker though, that's a drawback.  He's genuine and he has the courage of his convictions and I think he has guts.  But it's just my gut feeling.   I'm a big rudy guiliani lover.  He's a doer not a talker.  Christie is a doer not a talker.  Bobby jindal is a doer not a talker.  We have a talker in the WH, not a doer.  We need someone who is a doer not a talker.  But that's just what i'm feeling and the vibe I'm getting out there on the target line.

361 Not that this is true of any particular candidate but if someone is well-poised on paper but doesn't run there's often a good wink-wink reason.

362 Bob Dole's ready to give it another shot, since he lost his library card in the washing machine.

363 curious, okay, thanks.

364 The midterms were encouraging, but not an Obama killer. Congressional approval ratings sucked ass and were dropping like rocks. The losers were known from the get go and there weren't many big surprises. The Dems knew that they were going to lose the House to pass Obamacare and they went with it. Obama's numbers, however, have been reasonably consistent. His policy numbers took a comparatively small hit on Obamacare and some other shit, but he's mostly recovered. More importantly, his personal approval has stayed above 50%. What that tells me is that 1) the masses who voted for the dipshit

365 366 @352 'Memeorandum hand wringing'. I mean really Ace, a post like this I expect from Charles Johnson.

Posted by: MrPaulRevere at May 23, 2011 02:09 AM (5sY8m)

Uh you know that Ace's 4th choice was Dennis Hopper. That's right Mr. Drugs and Rock-n-Roll himself. Ooooh the horror...the horror...

366 I like Bachmann trains.

367 Romney's  people are quietly saying their first quarter haul was 40 million. If they are letting that leak, it means its a lot more, and his 10 million dollar day was not part of that tally. People cant wait until fall like Fred tried. 

368 >>> his 10 million dollar day was not part of that tally. I hear that's misleading. that wasn't really 10 million collected in a day but 10 million pledged at various fundraisers to occur over the next couple of months.

369

Mike Pence seems like a fucking dream candidate at this point. I'm really astonished that when the country is in this type of shape, we don't have more of these guys stepping up to the plate.

370 @Ace #371. I do expect your honest insight without sugarcoating. However, are we not on a 'team' if you will? If we are we should look for reasons to praise team members.

371 Damn it! Romney sucks hind tit but he WILL beat Obama. Cain WILL beat Obama. Bachmann WILL beat Obama. Pawlenty WILL beat Obama. Shit, even that fucking idiot Ron Paul WILL beat Obama. My dog could beat Obama. The guy is a total fucking disaster and no amount of MFM propaganda is going to disguise it. Please, for the love of God stop being afraid of Obama. The bloom is off the fucking rose. The emperor is butt fucking naked and if we weren't so boned we'd all be laughing at him. Instead we're mad as hell and can't wait to shitcan the little knownothing, unaccomplished Chicago thug. Pick a candidate. Any candidate. If they are even remotely reasonable then they will beat him. Seriously, with the exception of Gary Johnson and Ron Paul (yeah, I was kidding earlier) any of the mentioned candidates on our side can and will mop the floor with Obama.

372 Hollowpoint, the problem with the three stooges back in 08 is that each of them represented one leg of the so-called three-legged stool of Conservatism.  At least this time we have a few folks that seem to represent all three.

Either way, I'm looking for some certainty on issues, not IQ test results, likeability, good hair, or sizeable campaign coffers.

But it probably won't matter. Doofus media watchers will select the squishiest candidate so Obama has the best chance.

373 People are angry with professional politicians.  they are angry with bankers.  They are just plain angry.  They are showing their anger by not spending and paying down their debt and saving.  they are showing their anger by not giving to the Republican party and don't kid yourselves, no matter how BO and the dems say it, regular people, the little contributors have stopped contributing.  Mostly people are sending small donations, like ten bucks, to the candidates they like to support them directly.  I think we are seeing a great quiet change in how money plays out in politics.

374 Romney's  people are quietly saying their first quarter haul was 40 million. If they are letting that leak, it means its a lot more, and his 10 million dollar day was not part of that tally. People cant wait until fall like Fred tried. 

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 23, 2011 02:16 AM (jOQSe)

It won't help him. Even if by some miracle he overcomes RomneyCare his spending ways will kill him in the primary. No one ever  mentions it but Romney as Governor of an NE liberal state signed a lot of bills with some very wasteful spending in it. He could get by with that in 2008 but not now. They'll kill him in ads with every line item.

375

I dont doubt it. Sometimes peoples hatred of Romney leads to all kinds of whacked out conspiracy stuff. I ran phone banks for him when he ran for governor in Massachusetts, and have been in his war rooms. Impressive shit. 

He could always raise money. Plus, Wall Street has bailed on Obama, and they are not waiting for Cain of Bachmannor Palin  to save them. Romney is getting all the Wall Street money this time. Plus his usual stable of big business cash and Mormon dough.

If it is a charade, it just proves his executive skill and saavy. He managed to turn into great headlines that re-inforced his image as a frontrunner.

376 @Maetenloch, you have an excellent memory. I never cared much for Mr. Hopper.

377 It's 10 million a day for a thousand days!

378

Honestly I think we're wishcasting new candidates but the fact is we know the field, plus Bachmann.

Yes, we are... but before March 2007, well after everyone else jumped in, who knew that the "draft Fred" thing would come to be?  Sure, it didn't work out, but still- despite the actual of number of candidates likely to run (I'm pretty confident that Bachman will make a vanity run), how many serious candidates are there?  It's a very open field.

As far as I'm concerned (I'm much more skeptical about Cain, when was someone with no experience at all was nominated?), the only "top tier" candidates are Romney and Pawlenty, with Santorum, Huntsman and Gingrich being second tier (not longshots, but would have a lot of catching up to do), with everyone else (including Cain) being longshot third tier and/or vanity candidates.

If you're a Rick Perry (as an example)- why wouldn't you see an opening?

 

379 People's hatred of Romney comes from the fact that he easily has the biggest policy disaster in the entire field on his record and it isn't even close.

380 Romney was always going to win the money race. He crushed on cash in 2008 and it was the only thing that kept him in the running... against Huck and McCain, who weren't exacty breaking the bank. I'm guessing that Cain and Bachmann pull enough of the conservatiive vote in the early states to keep Romney at bay long enough for TPaw to pull into the lead. A couple states in, Cain and Bachmann drop out due to cashflow, and Mittens catches up a bit, but not enough. So we end up with TPaw, who wins by being boring, then loses the general for the same reason.

381

Posted by: Rocks at May 23, 2011 02:21 AM (th0op)

___

They all have warts. Its just that Romney's are well exposed, and people have been hearing it for five years. He knows how to the roll with it. The others have a lot more land mines to navigate.

 

 

382

So Cain thinks that the "Right of Return" has to do with coke bottles.

That doesn't make him a less viable candidate than Tim Pawlenty, who thinks that marine-hunting Polar Bears are drowning in the Arctic.

383 I remember seeing really impressive money flowing to Romney in the 07/08 campaigns, and then wondering, after the primaries started, why I kept seeing all those reports about him running low on cash.  So let's remember, the money gets pi$$ed away in campaigns and doesn't buy many votes.

384 You know "getting all the Wall Street money" for those paying attention may prove to be an insurmountable, unexpected liability for mr. romney.  Plus start researching him, I did and I decided I will never in a million years vote for him.

385

Posted by: Rich at May 23, 2011 02:26 AM (qUHCW)

____

That's why Herman Cain supported Romney in 2008 and Jim DeMint not only endorsed RomneyCare but said it should be nationalized. We've heard all this before. Romney has his flaws, but is easily the favorite. 

386 >>>If you're a Rick Perry (as an example)- why wouldn't you see an opening? I'll tell you that I do not think this is something you do when you see an opening or opportunity. I think you commit to it years out. So sure, Perry has an opening. But if he had the desire, he'd already be in. So he doesn't have the desire. How does he get that all of a sudden?

387 Thaddeus McCotter isn't running for President.  Hell, I desperately wish he was running for Senator in MI.  But Ace, if you're unfamiliar with him then it's your loss: he's quite simply one of the funniest, most articulate, most thoughtful Congressmen in the GOP caucus.  Has a unique mixture of conservative and quasi-moderate credentials as well.  And an interesting sort of unconventional charisma. 

He's Red Eye's "official Congressman" so to speak, and shines every single time he's on the show.

388

That doesn't make him a less viable candidate than Tim Pawlenty, who thinks that marine-hunting Polar Bears are drowning in the Arctic.

Posted by: TexasJew at May 23, 2011 02:27 AM (L8Let)

But they are running out of ice sheets to stand on!  Ice sheets with no food on them! Someone has to send them ice and food!

389 He knows how to the roll with it. 

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 23, 2011 02:26 AM (jOQSe)

No, he doesn't, At least not anymore. The fact that he is still floundering on health care this close to the primary season and that he hasn't moved a bunch in the polls as his major opponents have dropped out despite a pile of cash and heir presumptive standing proves that.

390 Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:30 AM (hIWe1)

oh and he's very sexy.

391 I really, really like Thad McCotter.  And I'll say it every time I get the chance. 

392 oh I meant to say he has a very sexy brain......

393 >>>Either way, I'm looking for some certainty on issues, not IQ test results, likeability, good hair, or sizeable campaign coffers. You probably don't realize this but this is a baiting statement. This is your effort to differentiate yourself (man of principle) from us sell-outs. The effort is noted. I know there is baiting from my end of the street too but FYI this is the sort of baiting self-congratulation that starts making me want to toss out an insult.

394 He's Red Eye's "official Congressman" so to speak, and shines every single time he's on the show.

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:30 AM (hIWe1)

Yeah Thaddeus McCotter doesn't look like he'd be funny, but I'm always pleasantly surprised by his quick wit on Red Eye.

395 but fyi I've spoken to cab drivers who were "good on the issues" but also unelectable.

396 Say what you will. Herman Cain is the sleeper candidate of '12. People are naturally drawn to a man of character who posesses wisdom. See Ronald Reagan.

397 Of course McCotter supported the auto bailouts (he's a Congressman from the Detroit suburbs, natch), so I guess he's disqualified as not being a pure enough True Conservative.  Hell, come to think of it we ought to primary that RINO sonofabitch.  So what if he was way ahead of the curve on TARP and stimulus and is strong on foreign policy and is amazingly smooth and articulate and immensely likable?  Fucking RINO faggot.

398

 Hollowpoint, the problem with the three stooges back in 08 is that each of them represented one leg of the so-called three-legged stool of Conservatism. At least this time we have a few folks that seem to represent all three.

Assuming you're referring to the Cain, Palin, Bachmann trio (and I'm going to assume I'm right even if you say different, because I'm that fucking awesome), they also happen to be very poorly qualified (Cain), poorly qualified with more baggage than a 747 cargo hold (Palin) or less than well qualified with a reputation as being a loon with foot-in-mouth syndrome (Bachmann).

I'll say this again, because nobody believes me when I say it (remember the I'm that fucking awesome part?)- when people like me (fucking awesome people) say that they're unelectable (or at best a longshot in the general), we're not suggesting that it's their conservative positions that would make them a poor candidate, but rather who they happen to be is what make them a poor candidate.

_{(BTW, did I mention that I'm fucking awesome?  My second grade teacher said so, thus it must be true)}

399

I'd vote for Romney. I don't get a warm and fuzzy from T-Paw or the rest of them. And Huntsman's a phony twat.

The Devil you know....

400

Posted by: K~Bob at May 23, 2011 02:28 AM (9b6FB)

___

That's kind of another myth about Romney. There are a lot of memes out there and its tough to debunk them all.   But Romney was an unknown one term governor in 2008. When he started in 2008, he consistently polled in the low single digits. Rudy was America's mayor. McCain ran in 2000 and was a hero. Fred was a famous actor and conservative darling and Huckabee won over the built-in evangelical vote.

Yet, by the time Romney quit at CPAC, he had more delegates, won more states and more popular votes than Fred, Rudy, and Huck. Only Charlie Crist's endorsement of McCain in Florida prevented Romney from winning. Then McCain needed to partner with Huck to swing WV to stop Romney again.

His performance in 2008 was much stronger than many of the haters want to give him credit for.

401 I don't get these made-up attributes like "man of character." How would you know such a thing? Have you any personal dealings with him?

402 Yeah, lots of us supported Romney. Romneycare sucked, but it was new, and it was Massachusetts, and no way anyone would be dumb enough to try it nationally. Several conservatives thought it was an OK idea in the liberal fantasyland of Massachusetts. Maybe some states need a nanny. Other states, not so much.

But now that Obamacare is here, and everyone points to Romney, it doesn't look like a good thing at all.

403 @392 RCP has Obama's job approval rating at 52% (the same percentage he won with). That is with an unauthorized war in Libya, $4 gas, 9% unemployment, passing the debit ceiling again, etc., etc... and following the mid terms. 57% feel that the country is headed in the wrong direction. In other words, the same assholes who put Obama into office still refuse to acknowledge that he's responsible for the shit direction of the country. Meanwhile, the MFM is reliably feeding them the same bullshit about how we're recovering, thanks to Obama, and things will just take more time.

404 Honestly, this bothers me. I should just say "I support T-Paw because he is a man of unflinching personal integrity." Just like make up stuff I have no way of knowing.

405

Say what you will. Herman Cain is the sleeper candidate of '12. People are naturally drawn to a man of character who posesses wisdom. See Ronald Reagan.

Reagan was a two-term governor of CA, and I'm pretty fucking sure he could answer very simple foreign policy questions.

Is Cain a "sleeper"?  OK, sure... but he shouldn't be.  The Presidency isn't the place for on-the-job training, a lesson the country is currently learning the hard way.

406 I'm completely unafraid to say that yeah, I'm looking in part for "IQ test results."  Or to put it more accurately, I want someone who's smart and competent (and comes across as such to the voting public at large, not just in a "I swear I can tell she's actually intelligent, she just hasn't deigned to show it yet because she's playing the long game.")

What is wrong with that?  What the fuck is wrong with the current state of conservative movement, that people have begun to openly fetishize stupidity and ignorance and lack of education as somehow being more 'authentic' than actual demonstrated intellectual accomplishment?  Is this what the party of Bill Buckley and Frank Meyer and Whittaker Chambers has come to?

407 425 Honestly, this bothers me.

I should just say "I support T-Paw because he is a man of unflinching personal integrity."

Just like make up stuff I have no way of knowing.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 02:37 AM (nj1bB)

Like Cap and Trade.

408 Mccotter on Fox business news.

409 I love McCotter, but in no way is he POTUS material.  He's like a chain smoking, bald Steven Wright.

410 >>>I don't get these made-up attributes like "man of character."

>>>How would you know such a thing? Have you any personal dealings with him?

Let's not kid ourselves: it's because he perfectly plays to the Hollywood stereotype of "honest, gruff black man."  People are just projecting those qualities onto him because he fits a type.

411

His performance in 2008 was much stronger than many of the haters want to give him credit for.

Posted by: swamp_yankee at May 23, 2011 02:36 AM (jOQSe)

I give him total credit for 2008. He ran a heck of a campaign. certainly a hell of a lot better than Giuliani. But it's an entirely different world now and it doesn't suit Romney as a candidate and he either can't or doesn't think he should have to adjust to that.

412 Well, I'm voting for whomever I would most trust to take care of my dog on vacation. He or she must be genuine and caring and like playing tug-of-war.

413 What the fuck is wrong with the current state of conservative movement, that people have begun to openly fetishize stupidity and ignorance and lack of education as somehow being more 'authentic' than actual demonstrated intellectual accomplishment?

Nice strawman. I'm sure pretentious dickbags like you have a lot to do with whatever windmill you're charging at.

414 I don't get these made-up attributes like "man of character." Oh gee, where do I go with this? It's an intuitive feeling Ace, an emotional connection one feels when you study a man, his background and policy positions.

415 I have no reason to think Cain is not a man of character, however, I think what is going on here is: 1) Decide you like Cain for whatever reason 2) Because you like him, impute to him the virtue of character 3) Now, having decided he's a man of character, cite that as a reason you support him when in fact the "man of character" thing came AFTER the choice to support him, not before it.

416 I will only vote for the candidate whom I would want most as a neighbor, or to take care of my kids, or to furiously wank on my dipstick while wearing those sexy red 'cougar' pumps and librarian glasses.

417 one thing that really worries me about romney is 2008 was a far, far better year for him than this one and he lost then too. So what now?

418 @407 Perry has been selling the "not interested" line for some time, but hasn't convinced anyone that I know of. He's interested. He's also a schemer that could bluff Romney out of his shorts in poker. They guy is a total opportunist politician, IMO. I am no authority, but from what little I see about Perry, I'd guess he's holding his hand close and waiting to see blood in the water. Folks south of the Mason Dixon line have been speculating about a Perry run for at least the past 2 years.

419 What is wrong with that?  What the fuck is wrong with the current state of conservative movement, that people have begun to openly fetishize stupidity and ignorance and lack of education as somehow being more 'authentic' than actual demonstrated intellectual accomplishment?  Is this what the party of Bill Buckley and Frank Meyer and Whittaker Chambers has come to?

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:39 AM (hIWe1)

My own giant brain cannot resolve this paradox.

420 >>> It's an intuitive feeling Ace, an emotional connection one feels when you study a man, his background and policy positions. Okay... but intuition is not terribly reliable.

421

I'll tell you that I do not think this is something you do when you see an opening or opportunity. I think you commit to it years out. So sure, Perry has an opening. But if he had the desire, he'd already be in.

So he doesn't have the desire. How does he get that all of a sudden?

The same way that I get a boner when a chick unexpectedly flashes her tits in a bar.

Nobody could've anticipated that both Huckabee and Daniels (among others) would sit this one out.  Four months ago, it might not have looked like there was much room for a newcomer.  Now?  Not so much.

Yeah- to enter relatively late without having first built a campaign infrastructure would be tough, and I'm not saying Perry (or any other white knight) will jump in, but the very recent developments of Huck and Daniels bowing out change things more than a little bit.

422 "I support T-Paw because he is a man of unflinching personal integrity."

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 02:37 AM (nj1bB)

Also, he's a Man of the People. That's my favorite one. I used to think that was a joke till Obama came along. The guy is the first person I have ever seen that might actually not be a Man of the People. I'm not sure he even is people.

423 >>>Nice strawman. I'm sure pretentious dickbags like you have a lot to do with whatever windmill you're charging at.

Wait, you're saying this now?  After nearly a year of listening to various commenters both here and at places like Hot Air caterwaul about the "Ivy League establishment" and "educated elites" and how they're automatically untrustworthy?  After we've been force fed buckets of offal about how we need someone who's an "outsider," whose credentials are positively BOLSTERED by a lack of success in traditional meritocratic channels? 

If you can't detect the increasingly proud strain of anti-intellectualism coursing through certain quarters of the grassroots, then you're closing your eyes to it. 

424 437 I will only vote for the candidate whom I would want most as a neighbor, or to take care of my kids, or to furiously wank on my dipstick while wearing those sexy red 'cougar' pumps and librarian glasses.

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:44 AM

So, can we put you down for a yard sign?

425

I don't get these made-up attributes like "man of character." Oh gee, where do I go with this? It's an intuitive feeling Ace, an emotional connection one feels when you study a man, his background and policy positions.

Are you looking for a date, or a President?

426 If you honestly look at Cain's background he's the right guy to fix the economy.  No doubt about it.  He understand it from all sides.  And if you put michelle bachman or thaddeus mccotter as his VP you'd have a very good team there.

I'd love to see cain/mccotter cause bachman is very much like cain but she has the political experience that he doesn't have but i'm not seeing the love for michelle from the soccer moms.

427 I will only vote for the candidate whom I would want most as a neighbor, or to take care of my kids, or to furiously wank on my dipstick while wearing those sexy red 'cougar' pumps and librarian glasses.

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:44 AM (hIWe1)

This.

428 >>>So, can we put you down for a yard sign?

Handjobs first, yard signs second.

429 Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:47 AM (hIWe1)


You forgot to use your David Brooks sock.

430 Actually, you know what I want from a candidate? Red-faced demagoguery! I don't care if he or she has any record of achievement; I just want sensational YouTube putdowns of Democrats! I want hostile interviews with the media figures I most despise! I want a candidate who best articulates the inchoate fury I feel toward Washington, dammit! To hell with a resume, I want someone who'll rage, rage against the dying of the light!

431 Are you looking for a date, or a President? Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 23, 2011 02:47 AM (WRW1S) If the choices are Bachmann or Palin, I'd go with the former over the latter.

432 You probably don't realize this but this is a baiting statement. This is your effort to differentiate yourself (man of principle) from us sell-outs.

The effort is noted. I know there is baiting from my end of the street too but FYI this is the sort of baiting self-congratulation that starts making me want to toss out an insult.

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 02:33 AM (nj1bB)

Go ahead. It's no biggie. But the fact you overlook is I coupled that with a statement about issues. All this personal crap is boring as hell. I want Obamacare flushed down the toilet. Seems a lot of folks care more about slamming people, their choices, and anything else they feel petulant about today than the issues. This isn't the nineties. It's time to stand up for something other than the same old crap that got us here.

Bush did exactly two things that I liked: lowered taxes, and fought the "War On Terror" (no, I don't care what it's called, we know what it is).  But he helped bring us to this point in overreaching, massive government time as surely as Obama. So I'm not voting for anyone I think will continue in that same, endless spiral toward socialism.

(Has FA to do with "purity," BTW.)

433 I will only vote for the candidate whom I would want most as a neighbor, or to take care of my kids, or to furiously wank on my dipstick while wearing those sexy red 'cougar' pumps and librarian glasses.
Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:44 AM (hIWe1)

Okay, I'm think I can back Palin.

434 I had no idea who Herman Cain was when I listened to him when he filled in for Neil Boortz when I was scanning the dial while driving home from from work. After listening to him for 15 minutes, I knew he was a 'wise man' and a man of  character. These things one feels intuitively. I did.

435 Posted by: Rocks at May 23, 2011 02:51 AM (th0op)

I thought it was an odd reference to Cupp

436

I'd vote for Romney. I don't get a warm and fuzzy from T-Paw or the rest of them. And Huntsman's a phony twat.

The Devil you know....

That's just great.  It was bad enough when we just had to worry about you people secretly running the world, but now you're in league with the Mormon Hedge Fund cabal?

If the Vatican assassins join in, we're fucking doomed.

437 I had no idea who Herman Cain was when I listened to him when he filled in for Neil Boortz when I was scanning the dial while driving home from from work. After listening to him for 15 minutes, I knew he was a 'wise man' and a man of  character. These things one feels intuitively. I did.

Posted by: MrPaulRevere at May 23, 2011 02:52 AM (5sY8m)

Either that or he's really good at hosting a Radio show.

438 448 I will only vote for the candidate whom I would want most as a neighbor, or to take care of my kids, or to furiously wank on my dipstick while wearing those sexy red 'cougar' pumps and librarian glasses.

Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:44 AM (hIWe1)

But Barbara Mikulsi isn't running...

439 @457 If we're voting on "which Conservative would make the best sex slave for Damiano", Cupp wins.

440 After nearly a year of listening to various commenters both here and at places like Hot Air caterwaul about the "Ivy League establishment" and "educated elites" and how they're automatically untrustworthy?  After we've been force fed buckets of offal about how we need someone who's an "outsider," whose credentials are positively BOLSTERED by a lack of success in traditional meritocratic channels?

Kinda the opposite, actually. Even you pretend to hate our Ivy League dipshit President, who has had great success in traditional "meritocratic" channels, but has turned out to be a colossal failure. Perhaps the meritocratic channels you've fetishized aren't quite the path to success you imagine them to be.

441 >>>I will only vote for the candidate whom I would want most as a neighbor, or to take care of my kids, or to furiously wank on my dipstick while wearing those sexy red 'cougar' pumps and librarian glasses. Helen Thomas?

442 Perhaps we need an AOSHQ checklist of things we feel the next republican presidential candidate must have.

Like I want someone who believe in free market capitalism and all it's consequences and who loves this country with all their heart and unabashedly shows that love.  I want someone who believes in American exceptionalism.

443 After listening to him for 15 minutes, I knew he was a 'wise man' and a man of character. These things one feels intuitively. I did. Posted by: MrPaulRevere at May 23, 2011 02:52 AM (5sY8m) This is subjective stuff, so there's not much point arguing it. Still, I'm interested in how important such judgments are for your candidate abacus. How do you weigh your perceptions of someone's character against the facts of their record?

444 What is wrong with that?  What the fuck is wrong with the current state of conservative movement, that people have begun to openly fetishize stupidity and ignorance and lack of education as somehow being more 'authentic' than actual demonstrated intellectual accomplishment?  Is this what the party of Bill Buckley and Frank Meyer and Whittaker Chambers has come to?
Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:39 AM (hIWe1)

Man, when you go strawman, you include the gas can and a vaporizer.

445 438one thing that really worries me about romney is 2008 was a far, far better year for him than this one and he lost then too.

So what now?

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 02:44 AM (nj1bB)  ______ I dont see it. Like I said, he only lost to McCain, but this time he is the only person whose been around the track once. He doesnt have that hump. Second, health care is a more important issue with the base than the general public. Economy, jobs, debt are still more important. If the economy folded before the primaries ended in 2008, Romney probably would have won. When he's locked on job creation, he's super strong. He was the founderand chief executive of a private equity firm. People forger that his business was business - helping them survive and grow. With respect to health care, he will still repeal ObamaCare. I think a lot of the anger is punitive and will wear off in time. What candidates will do is more important. Last, all the candidates are stronger. I'm in the camp that no one could have won in 2008. This time Obama has a record and people actually know him. His rhetoric will only take him so far. Kids arent impressed anymore. (I'm not in his camp. I just think he gets a raw deal and there is a lot of unnatural hatred towards him)  

446 Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2011 02:59 AM (G/MYk)

I see you take the "let's scare the crap out of the democrats and liberals" approach.  They seem genuinely terrified to have Bolton anywhere near the oval office.

447 >>>It's time to stand up for something other than the same old crap that got us here. Knit the flag, knit the flag. These get up on a soapbox and cry out how much integrity you have speeches really impress few. Except all the other people making them. But I guess that's the target audience. I can only keep saying the same thing: The sooner some of you realize there just might be some politics in politics, the better. I will say something else. The fundamentalist strain of religion usually focuses on the most contentious doctrines, because the LESS contentious doctrines are widely accepted and hence not suitable for brand differentiation. I find that is going on in politics now, too, where people are almost gleeful about picking candidates they know other people WON'T like, because that's the way one differentiates oneself and shows oneself to be committed: By staking out positions known to be controversial in the larger public. And thus candidates who seem to espouse such positions, or, more typically, attitudes and manners of communication which seem more hostile even though the actual positions aren't really that different from other candidates, are selected as standard bearers. Because, perversely, it becomes someone's very unelectability which makes them attractive.

448 Am I the only one that doesn't much dig on SE Cupp?  She's cute and all, but she does this ghetto trash thing with her head, ya know what I mean?  Some people bobble their heads but she does this...jutting thing.  It's a common habit amongst ghetto princesses.  That, "Whu choo talkin' 'bout, man, u don talk too mah men lie dat" kinda thing.

Complete turn off.

449 >>>After listening to him for 15 minutes, I knew he was a 'wise man' and a man of character. These things one feels intuitively. I did.

You know, a lot of people listened to John Edwards on the campaign trail in 2004 and 2008 and came away convinced that he was a truly righteous man who deeply cared about the plight of the working man. 

Just saying, is all.

450 @465 I think that a good argument can be made that the subjective "feeling" stuff is what wins elections. "Shining City on a Hill"? "Hope and Change"? I tend to dismiss this idea a lot, and I am wrong to do so. People make decisions emotionally, then use (or more often invent) logic to justify their decision.

451 Whoops, wrong thread!  Meant to post that in the ONT.

452 FWIW, my mom keeps telling me that bill clinton should not have gotten a second term and he did.  I think she is still shocked by that after all these years.  So, when I say but BO has this negative and that negative she always brings out the bill clinton.

453 >>>I think a lot of the anger is punitive and will wear off in time. I think this is wrong. I'll tell you why I feel that. Because, as far as I know, this same anger has followed Romney around for going on four years.

454 I'm beat, thanks for the back and forth. Thanks for your replys Ace, much appreciated.

455 Furthermore I don't think it's "bad" for the primary, where I think conservatives are divided on Afghanistan. A punt is not always bad.

Posted by: ace at May 22, 2011 11:23 PM (nj1bB)

Uhh.... sorry... but you don't get to 'punt' on a 10 year old WAR... not if you want to be Commander in Chief.

456

I say we nominate the janitor at work.

He doesn't have any degree, which makes him even less elite than the non-Ivy League college graduates, and I hear that elite is bad.

He has no experience at all in politics or special interests, which makes him the ultimate outsider than all those fuckups in Washington.

He has no support from the RNC, former Bushies, or Republican insiders, meaning that he's even less "establishment" than any of the other possible candidates, and establishment is bad.

He always says "hi" in the hallway and is very friendly when not cleaning the urinals, so is very likeable and has far better "man of the people" credibility than anyone else.

JANITOR 2012!!!  Mopping up for change since 2006! 

457 >>>I think this is wrong. I'll tell you why I feel that. Because, as far as I know, this same anger has followed Romney around for going on four years.

You know, actually I'm not so sure of this.  I think the anger against Romney for *that* sort of dissipated but was then replaced by anger over RomneyCare and its obvious similarity to ObamaCare.  Like, people used to bitch about his Mormonism, or his inauthenticity on socon issues, etc. etc.  Nobody really cares about that anymore.  I think your larger thesis may be correct, but that Romney is a bad example; he strikes me as a candidate who was genuinely "overtaken by events," so to speak.

458 @471 The bobble head thing can develop useful head movement muscles.

459 To be honest, if Cain can convince people of that, that's a good thing, and a realist like myself (or Jeff, who says he's a realist) should count that as a positive whether it's true or not. Perception matters to a realist. If he's perceived as honest and virtuous, then, for all practical purposes, he is.

460 True-blue Obamabots may be angry with him on certain issues, but don't ever think for a moment that they won't be out in force for him next November. They simply will not vote for a Pub of any stripe when the moment of truth comes. That said, I'm thinking that a lot of people who voted for him in '08 because of white guilt, it was "cool", Bush was horrible, blah blah blah...will not vote for Obama again. That alone could cost him the election, but it would really help if the Pubs presented someone that is not just the lesser of two evils.

461 >>>Liberals' fears tend to be good contra-indicators ... extensions of their normal (and annoying) projections of their own damaged personalities.

This is simply not true.  Or, in the alternate, you need to learn to distinguish between liberals "fearing" someone and them "mocking the fuck out of" someone.  How many times have we heard certain folks say that the liberals must really fear Sarah Palin, because they keep attacking her and making fun of her and mocking her?  Why she must be the biggest possible electoral threat to Obama! 

But of course that wasn't the reason lefties mocked Sarah Palin.  They use her as a punching bag because she absolutely revolts them in every way and she keeps finding ways to make an ass out of herself in public, so she provides easy punchlines.  That's all.

462 >>>To be honest, if Cain can convince people of that, that's a good thing, and a realist like myself (or Jeff, who says he's a realist) should count that as a positive whether it's true or not.

Yeah, I have absolutely no opinion on whether Herman is a "man of character" or not.  Actually that's not true: I'm inclined as a default to think that he IS a man of character.  And if he can convince others that's fine.  I just don't think he can convince enough people that he's qualified to be President of the United States. 

But hey, if the bandwagon really gets rolling and he ups his game?  I'll give him a second look.  I'll give anyone who might defeat Obama a second look.  And yes, that even including Jon friggin' Huntsman.  I'm that desperate.

463 and I hear that elite is bad.

I hear elite is good. That's why I will vote be voting Obama, the only man in the race who has actual experience being President.

464 Knit the flag?

Integrity?

You must be drunkblogging tonight.

Next you'll be accusing me of claiming I'm a nice guy.

Your strawman isn't as instantly flammable as JeffB's, but it's logically equivalent. You seem to think that your opinion on electability is more valid than mine. That's fine. I disagree is all. You guys can worry about whatever bothers you about the candidates all you want.

I'll see what happens during the primaries and make my choice.

465 Limbaugh always says that and he should know better. Sometimes I wonder if he's playing a game with the audience, telling them nonsense. But no, I just think he believes that crap. To Limbaugh and the "media will tell you who they fear" crowd, I'd remind them that they're putting their decision in the hands of the MSM and liberals. Because their position is simply "I will look to the msm and liberals, and do what they tell me not to." The fact that they are simply doing the opposite does not change the fact that they have removed their own judgments from the equation altogether. They are relying upon someone else's thinking, and then just saying, 'The opposite of that." That is not smart. That is stupid.

466

... elite is good, elites are good, elitism is bad.

467 >>> You seem to think that your opinion on electability is more valid than mine. I don't think that my opinion on electability is more valid than yours, if by that you mean "what each of us considers electable." You have said multiple times you consider this to be an invalid consideration altogether. Are you now walking that back?

468 but progress, to the extent you endorse that line of thinking, the "they will tell you who they fear" thing, why do you imagine they're smarter than you and that you should therefore look to them to inform you of your best candidate?

469 @487 I'm not so sure. The squishy people that you describe are the same simple minded folks who are furious about the economy and, based on the polls, refusing to correlate our economic woes with Obama. I think that the economy will turn out the vote, but historically that type of turnout unusually goes to the Democrats. What worries me more is that I think our midterm victory could bite us. The Democrats and the media have successful blamed the economy on Republicans for years, even while they were a minority. Boehner and the majority of Republicans have been an embarrassment so far and are legitimately becoming a huge part of the problem. Our midterm "victory" could be the groundwork for ensuring our 2012 defeat. The way the polls look, strongly supports this idea IMO.

470 Limbaugh did that crap by speculating that Daniels must be a bad candidate because exactly two liberal columnists said he was smart or that "at least he's not crazy." Oh, two morons who we have no respect for said that, ergo, let's not bother thinking ourselves, and just think the opposite. Because they must know more than us, right? We're the stupid kids cheating off the smart kids.

471

Know who liberals really fear?

Two-headed zombie clowns with chainsaws and herpes.

If we can find one, I think we'll have a winner.

472 There is a conception in this idea of liberal intellectual superiority -- we look to them to make our decisions, because, hey!, they're right, they're better at this thinky stuff than us -- that I just find so... self-abasing, I guess. Hey, let's confirm everything liberals say about their intellectual superiority and our own intellectual insecurity.

473 > 372 >>>thaddeus mccotter? Ahem... why would you say that? Posted by: ace Becuase he's on Red Eye a lot and Red Eye is the TV version of this blog.

474

Sarah Palin did threaten liberals. Identity politics is the foundation of  their electoral strategies and more important their world view.  Liberals were thrown that class and feminist issues were being co-opted and re-defined by someone whose values were hostile to their own. Feminism is Carrie Bradshaw, not the conservative, evanglelical, beauty queen, who married her high school sweetheart, stayed in her hometown and had five kids.

But there fears were more cultural than political. And it was born in 2008 when she was a threat. The landscape has changed. They's welcome a Palin candidacy now. Its not that she is not polling well. She is polling terribly. Losing to Obama badly in places like Tennessee.

475 @500 I saw that a lot in NY and the other liberal paradises. Not so much in the red states or purple ones. My experience in flyover country is that elitism will get your run out of town, but telling folks how to get their "fair share of free stuff", particularly from the government, will make a lot of self proclaimed conservatives vote Democrat.

476 Like I want someone who believe in free market capitalism and all it's consequences and who loves this country with all their heart and unabashedly shows that love.  I want someone who believes in American exceptionalism.

Posted by: curious at May 23, 2011 02:57 AM (k1rwm)

OK, who's socking curious?  It's considered bad form to sock a regular's name exactly. 

477 497, point taken about the Pubs. But I'm not talking about the hardcore Obamabots in deep blue states. I saw a plausible article back in '08, right after the election, that the white vote is what put Obama over the top. I'd daresay that many of those votes were from people who were caught up in the "historical-ness" of the election. Now that Obama has a track record, a very bad one IMO, I think that many of these voters will be free (in their own minds at least) to either not vote for him, or vote for a "reasonable" Pub. As poor as the Pub congress may seem to be doing...the best I can say is that they've put a band-aid on a gaping wound...Presidents usually take the blame for a poor economy. A competent Pub candidate should be able to beat, if not destroy, Obama, in any debate on this. Just some random thoughts on a Monday morning.

478 You have said multiple times you consider this to be an invalid consideration altogether. Are you now walking that back?

Posted by: ace at May 23, 2011 03:16 AM (nj1bB)

You infer too much. Electability is always part of anyone looking at candidates. I happen to think most of the candidates are more electable than you do. Even Ron Paul is electable if enough people decide to go for it.

But more to the point: I'm saying, as I have also said on even more occasions, that this time it has to be different. My quibble is that "electability" and "winning the Senate" leads to more of the same.  We need to consider other things.

In 1995 or so, worrying about a spiral into socialism was probably akin to pretend patriotic fluff. Back then, yeah, that would be "knit the flag" (if I get your phrase).

Now?  No.

Same with the Amnesty issue. Twenty years ago, the argument about "what are we gonna do when we are seen deporting a valedictorian" would have given me pause. It would seem like flag-waving nationalism to me back then to scream bloody murder over "amnesty."

Now? No.

A few years ago worrying aloud about nationalizing industries would have cause folks to claim you had a tinfoil hat.

Now?  No.

So I take other factors into my decisions now. I don't want just anyone with a fat "R" pinned to their chest who can win. If that's where we are, we're so screwed it doesn't even matter who you vote for. RonPaul or write-in Al Sharpton, who cares?

479 "Even Ron Paul is electable if enough people decide to go for it."

Okay, that was kinda circular.  Even so, we don't need Mr. Perfect to beat Obama now. We need someone who doesn't gaffe half as much as he does.

480 Pizza

481 Negro

482 You bought the pizza, now you have to eat it.

483 Good bye pizza negro.

484 OT: (because I think the overnight thread is dead) Besides "Discover the Networks," what are the best sites for someone compiling a dossier on Obama's decisions/executive orders/whatnot?  There's all this great investigative journalism out there, but I'm pretty unfamiliar with compilation sites.

485 Oh, great.  In after the racist dipshit "leatherneck".  Just my luck.

486 @507 Well put. I understand the strategic and "long term" counterarguments against this view, but I think that things have degraded so far that, unless we take bold, drastic action that is going to piss off just about everyone, we won't survive long enough to see strategic or long term results.

487 And, just because someone has an Ivy League diploma doesn't say jack shit about his intellect.

I have two, and they say my intellect has been bound and bounded in precisely the way ye olde The Man requires it to be, that his dynasty shall e'er endure and shit. Or it says my parents were Important People—like, say, a couple Ayers and Dohrn types—with Many Dollars. One of those things.

Regardless, all y'all Palin-hating school-with-a-location-in-its-name hicks have to STFU and do what I say (which is STFU), because you're outranked.

why do you imagine they're smarter than you and that you should therefore look to them to inform you of your best candidate?

The idea there would be that lefties' inability to strategically resist lashing out, compelled as they are by tribal-animal impulses, lets truth out. And that's right, but you still have to figure out which truth it is.

In Palin's case, it's not "fear," even when they say it is, like when they say they're "afraid" she's proto-Hitler, because her fans are broke white guys. (Hitler was actually a "well-educated white women"'s politician.)

It's biological hatred, delivered almost entirely in biological terms. And it's going to be a problem, if not for her, for us*.

*Not me. I got rulin' papers.

488

So I take other factors into my decisions now. I don't want just anyone with a fat "R" pinned to their chest who can win. If that's where we are, we're so screwed it doesn't even matter who you vote for. RonPaul or write-in Al Sharpton, who cares?

No, you just want someone with a fat "R" pinned next to their chest who will lose.

Somehow, I fail to see the upside of that.

489 I've lived in MN the whole time he governed here. He's a moderate through and through. He banned smoking in bars and restaurants (wth private property rights) He's a good guy, and much like Bush you will know where he stands on things. But he's far from ideal. He is a compromiser, not a hard liner. He did a pretty good job on the budget and making the DFL eat a good bit of crow every year. While he didn't push the Teachers Unions around as much as I would have liked, he didn't put up with thier shit. He left the State in fairly good shape, regardless to what the MBM will tell you (Fox included) that lead to massive State House and Senate majority swings in 2010 following the teaparty tsunami. (Bachman had mucho to do about that. She was out there raising money and doing apperances all over the state. She's big time into the local politics since she came from the State Senate IIRC)

490

I've lived in MN the whole time he governed here. He's a moderate through and through. He banned smoking in bars and restaurants (wth private property rights)

He's a good guy, and much like Bush you will know where he stands on things. But he's far from ideal. He is a compromiser, not a hard liner.

I've lived in MN my entire life.

Yeah, I disagree with the smoking ban- but most other states have them too.  Blame the voters who support them; it had popular support.

I wouldn't say he's a "compromiser".  He vetoed a shitton of bills, and won more than one showdown with the DFL in the state legislature.

Is he a flawless, hardline conservative?  No, but for a MN governor who won not just one but two terms, he was more conservative than one would think could get elected here- compare to Arne Carlson, for example.

491 What the fuck is wrong with the current state of conservative movement, that people have begun to openly fetishize stupidity and ignorance and lack of education as somehow being more 'authentic' than actual demonstrated intellectual accomplishment? Is this what the party of Bill Buckley and Frank Meyer and Whittaker Chambers has come to? Posted by: Jeff B. at May 23, 2011 02:39 AM (hIWe1) This is a major source of anti-Palin angst. She has not earned her place at the table. Elitism tries to hide, but fails. She is a millionaire and has a shot at the Presidency that is far better than the ones held by her detractors here, and it fills them with contempt. This place is stuffed with folks who can't stop talking about how much they know about politics (me too), and you know what, we are merely spectators. Sarah Palin, whom I like, and Mitt Romney, whom I do not, know far more than we do because they are doers, not watchers in politics. I have been wrong in the way I treated Mitt Romney. He hasn't earned the contempt I slathered on him. I hope some here will see that Sarah Palin hasn't earned that treatment either.

492

No, you just want someone with a fat "R" pinned next to their chest who will lose.

Somehow, I fail to see the upside of that.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 23, 2011 04:00 AM (WRW1S)

No, I just don't have standards as low as yours.

What's so damned important about going over the falls looking slightly to the starboard, rather than port? You go over the falls if you want.

Just stay off of my lawn.

493 Government is too big, it spends too much, it invites corruption and protects its own.  The big media in this country are bias to one party.  Our problems are huge yet it seems most Americans don't care.  So whoever the Republicans run for president I expect the media to slime him or her.  It will not matter who it is.  And government will continue to grow, spend too much and invite corruption no matter who is elected president.  The game is getting old.  Once we had a Constitution and a chance to be a great country but now we are nothing more than an empty shell of what once we were.

494 Well I see we carried the same flame war into the night. So he does a walk back on the "no debt limit" raise. Hell I didn't know he said that to begin with. I am neutral on that. We haven't raised it yet and they are already overspending it so it looks to me like we don't have a debt limit.

On the "right of return" thing it looks like there may be some disagreement out there about what exactly that means. Is this one of those "Bush Doctrine" questions that have no correct answer?

In any case even if it was gaffe it is a minor gaffe. If he keeps getting hammered on foreign policy he just needs to be prepared to have a good foreign policy team like the Mustache.

But this election will not be about foreign policy. It will be about the economy pure and simple.

495 I went back to March and looked over the last AOS Straw Poll that Gabe did to see what the impact of all the drop outs would be for here. Looks like after we had all finished with it the word had got out to the Paulbots and they came in and bombed it. At the end of the day when Gabe at put it out he had less than 1% among the Moron crowd.

In any case it looks like the dropouts will have almost no impact on the AOS voting because none of them had significant support here to begin with. Trump wasn't even on the list.  Palin was 1st, followed by Cain, then Romney, then Bachmann, and Pawlenty. The rest were down in the dirt.

Perhaps it is time for Gabe to run another one of those polls. Especially since we have had a "sort of debate".

496 Wait he's not the leader of the brotherhood of NOD? Stand down the ion cannon.

497

Good Morning all.

498 Well, this early flub will be long forgotten if he seems better prepared in future interviews.

That being said, one has to wonder why these candidate's handlers don't do a better job of prepping their people on the issues of the day.  Republicans have a long history of getting all stupid on Sunday talk shows.  It's a disease.

499 I think what we may be seeing here is classic "overhandled candidate syndrom".  These stupid f*cking "consultants" are pouring so much into the ears of these candidates about "say this" but don't "say that" that they freeze up in the interview.

This is what I like about Christie.  He seems to actually say what HE thinks and doesn't give a damn if you or some focus group likes it or not.  You elected me, this is what I think - take it or leave it.

500 Republicans have a long history of getting all stupid on Sunday talk shows.  It's a disease.

Keep in mind that ALL the Sunday news talk shows want to make it that way. They edit the outtakes to make Republicans look bad and Democrats good. Chris Wallace is just as bad as any other hyper-liberal turd from NBC.

ABC actually went so far on a Palin interview to cut and paste answers from different questions and mix them to make her look bad. I always take these kinds of shows with a grain of salt, IF I watch them at all.

If I was  Republican candidate before I agreed to do any interview I would insist it be done live or I have control of the editing.

501 Stuart Varney just on F&F doing his imitation of Monty. Gloom and DOOM is at hand if we don't get control of spending and Europe is already doomed.

502 F&F doing their BS fair and balanced debate for GOP candidates. An unknown "Republican" and an Unknown Democrat. WTF do they keep putting Democrats on to debate Republican candidates viability to run?

503 Of curse all he wants to talk about is Gingrich's attack on Ryan's budget.

504 I like Cain and I want him to do well. That said, I think he's pretty much boned. He had no idea what "right of return" means. That's not a minor gaffe. Crap, dude. If you're going to run for President, did it ever occur to you that maybe you ought to read a newspaper or something?

505 Attention Morons; the Original TV Batman will be on Retroplex at 7 a.m. I say this not because I think you want to see Adam West but because it will have the old Julie Newmar catwoman. She caused much gnashing of teeth when I was a teen then.

506 oops correction 07:20

507  It's not like the Bush Doctrine non-flub at all. Bush Doctrine was no fixed concept- as even Big Media talking heads agreed at the time, Bush Doctrine had different meanings in different contexts.

Right of Return means only one thing. It's a catch-phrase that anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the Israeli/Arab conflict would know. The fact that Cain was dickering on such a topic especially in the wake of the controversy surrounding Obama's speech last week shows that he's completely out of his depth. It's the kind of gaffe that assures other similar flubs are to follow. Many people were introduced to Cain for the first time with this interview- including me. He blew it. It was not a case of foot-in-mouth, but crap on the carpet. Sorry Stace.

Herman Cain! Vote for me- my plan won't work!

508 Aw crap. they are using the Lee Meriwether catwoman. Oh well off it goes.

As for the "Bush Doctrine" that gaffe was made out to be a big deal at the time just like this "right of return" and we are now seeing that "right of return" does mean different things to different people just like the so-called Bush Doctrine.

509 Would rather have a president who has shaky interviews than the current one who avoids them all together or only does tightly scripted ones.

To paraphrase that obsessive lip-licker Anita Dunn, it's easy to look good in the press when you control the access the press has to a candidate or president.

510 OT: The post about the Missouri tornadoes has disappeared, so I'm commenting here. I'm in Alabama and my work puts me in constant contact with the relief/recovery effort here. For those of you who want to help the people in Missouri--thank you. Your willingness to help is important and much-appreciated by those affected. These people will need emergency relief for a few days. If you're in the immediate area, you can help by providing food, shelter, hot showers, transportation, etc. If you're not in the immediate area of the damage, SEND MONEY. Yes, you have all sorts of things around the house that someone might be able to use, but getting that stuff to the people who can use it will cost more than the value of the stuff. Forget it. SEND MONEY. As to precisely how you send money, you have lots of good options. If you know someone in the affected area, just send them some money. Tell them, "If you don't need this, then give it to someone who does." Red Cross, United Way, and the Salvation Army will publish instructions for donations to this particular disaster. These designated disaster funds go 100% to disaster work. Many churches have disaster relief operations that do excellent work. If your church has such an organization, follow their instructions on how to help, but SEND MONEY. If you're associated with a civic group like Lions, Optimists, Jaycees, etc., work with them on any disaster-related efforts, so long as it's about SENDING MONEY. Having said over and over to SEND MONEY, let me note that there are some exceptions. Able-bodied and skilled volunteers are an invaluable resource. If you're able to go to the affected area to volunteer, by all means do so, but do it through an organization like your church or the Red Cross. If you have access to heavy equipment like bulldozers, bucket trucks, skid-steers, and front-end loaders, contact the EMA or local government (city council, county commission) to see where that resource can best be used. If you have medical training, contact the Medical Reserve Corps in the Joplin area. If you're not in one of these special categories, again, please just SEND MONEY.

511 Posted by: Bill Mitchell at May 23, 2011 06:15 AM (Er/am)

yeah well the president's team seems to like him too, drudge has a headline that they are busily digging up dirt on him.

512 drudge link

513   People who say Cain is out of his depth are not listening. If you listen to his answer concerning Afghanistan, he says he is gonna wait until he gets the intelligence before developing a plan. Contrast that to candidate Obama who said he ...would close Gitmo (still open); repeal the Patriot Act (still there); pull out of Iraq (still there); End renditions (still doing it); and lessen the military footprint in Afghanistan (we increased troops). Obama shot his mouth off on what he would do when he was a candidate and codified the Bush Doctrine just this past weekend. Cain will not put himself in the position of bait and switch.  as far as his Israel answer, I don't care if he doesn't know the ins and outs of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. He is right, it is up to Israel to decide what is best for israel.

514 "Or, I could do something different, I could just tell you the truth"

515

"People who say Cain is out of his depth are not listening. If you listen to his answer concerning Afghanistan, he says he is gonna wait until he gets the intelligence before developing a plan. Contrast that to candidate Obama who said he..."

So, are you saying we should elect someone who has...no plan?  Cain's answer reminds me of Nancy Pelosi's you have to pass the bill to see what's in it response.  You think Cain will be able to get away with that answer in a debate with Obama?   

It seems like some people are desparately seeking a Great Black Hope, someone they can put up against Obama and say, see, we're not racist.  Would Michael Steele have been elected head of the RNC if Obama hadn't won the presidency? I seriously doubt it.  Cain absolutely has a great story and a business background, something our current president is lacking. But, I'm not interested in putting another novice in the White House. Are Republicans going to be like the Democrats were in 2008 and push a candidate just because he's black and has a good personal story?

516 Maybe it's me......but doesn't it seem a bit....abrupt......to declare a person's Presidential campaign DOA (or anoint them as a frontrunner, to be fair) after one middling-to-poor interview answer 18 months before the election? Or even 8 months before the first primary?

517 I was so tremendously disappointed in Cain's Fox interview. He had no idea about the right of return. he is so in over his head, after months to prepare for these questions. I am not for Pawlenty or Romney.

518 In addition to Right of Return, another term misunderstood is "Occupation". The Palestinians refer to the existence of Israel as "Occupation". Others are referring to an Israeli presences in Gaza or the West Bank.

519 Look, every one of these guys is going to be flawed, its just what you're willing to put up with and how you like the rest of what they stand for. Cain still supports the idea of TARP, for example. Every one of the candidates has drawbacks - what can you stomach and what can you not?

At this point, being less an insider and slick professional might actually be a bonus for a candidate going up against the Obama machine, in terms of contrast and seeming more real. But in the end, who knows, maybe that will be a liability.

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