1 Because in the MBM, the onus is ALWAYS on Republicans.

2 "So why is the onus on the Republicans?"

Because them as wield the megaphone say so.

3 That's kinda what we've been trying to say for 3 weeks now.

4 Why the onus on the Repubs?  Because it doesn't matter what the truth of anything is, any longer.  Republicans will get the blame for whatever bad happens, and at least 50.1 percent of the country is stupid enough to believe they are to blame.

5
Jim Demint said it a few weeks ago: The 2012 election will be decided on August 2, 2011.

6 And there really is no way to win the media battle with the piss poor PR that Republicans have. Compound that with our giant inability to manage high powered negotiations and you have a recipe for failure. There's not many more hills to abandon before we find one to finally fight on.

7 because you rethuglicans are racist, that's why.

8 How the fuck are we going to get significant spending cuts through a Democrat Senate and past a very ideological Democrat President? The answer is we can't. THAT'S why the real battle is in November 2012. We need an election to settle this impasse. And Mark Levin can rant and cover his microphone is spittle all he fucking wants, nothing he, or anyone says is going to change these political realities.

9
In addition, our mandate is much fresher.

You'd think so but the Democrats are brash and bold. So bold in fact that they seem to forget they voted to extend the Bush tax rates last December.

Political capital. Use it or lose it.

10

So why is the onus on the Republicans?

Because our Dear Leader is anything but dear, or a leader.

And he has really big ears. . .

 

11 The new bill

12 He who controls the House controls spending.  No one can spend without House approval.  Why is this so hard to grasp?

13 Stop sounding sane, Fred.

14

So why is the onus on the Republicans?

 

The same reason a scandal as large as "fast & furious" can go completely unmentioned.  The media.  It's not right, but it is what it is at this point.

15 So why is the onus on the Republicans?

The Narrative.

16
Our mandate is fresh.  The Dem's mandate has expired and smells skanky.

17 How the fuck are we going to get significant spending cuts through a Democrat Senate and past a very ideological Democrat President?

How the fuck are we supposed to make it to 2012 with an impending monetary collapse?

18 So why is the onus on the Republicans?

Because there's an anus is in the White House.

19
it's 104 pages

synopsis?

20 Yes, Fred, you are correct. We can't . The problem is, once 2012 rolls around we'll hear the same tired ass excuses we always hear. "We can't be too crazy! Don't want to loose majority in the Congress!" Besides, if they don't at least put up a fight now, when they were specifically sent there to do so, what reason are they giving people to vote for them? Vote for us, more of the same! We'll get the same bad package of Republican weakness mixed with democrats setting the terms of the debate we always do. It's another can kick and another "not the hill to die on" argument while the country burns. I don't trust them anymore, neither does the public, and we don't have much time left.

21 Whoa!  Fox news discovers political blogs!  Naturally, the example they find bashes Bachmann. 

IMO, the move to the left by Fox is less than subtle.

22 Just now this occurs to you? All this crap about the Tea Party being purists etc but CCB *was* a compromise. The House ALREADY passed a bill to raise the debt ceiling. The Senate won't take it up. So now the Republicans have to rush to pass Boehner so the Senate won't take that up either? The absolutist position on this is not to raise the debt ceiling. The Ryan plan (passed by the House) raised the debt ceiling. CCB raised the debt ceiling. The Republicans and the Tea Party have already acted to move off of the absolutist position. They have compromised. The Democrats and the President have not.

23 >>>How the fuck are we going to get significant spending cuts through a Democrat Senate and past a very ideological Democrat President? >>>The answer is we can't. We won't know until we find out. We're really not pushing them. Obama says he's all but agreed to entitlement reforms and other cuts. He just demands tax hikes in return. It's not impossible to get the cuts out of him, then. He's already agreed to them, in principle. He just says he needs more taxes.

24 If losing our rating is such a calamity, and the only way to prevent it is to reduce spending.... I don't see the problem.

25 Posted by: beedubya

Thanks for the lol!

26 Yep- that's what ticked a lot of us off.  Polling data suggests a balanced budget amendment is very popular with the general population, but there was nary a word about that from Republican "leaders" when the Senate tabled CC&B.

I get it- the GOP only has the House- they can't do this without Democrats.  But conservatives would like see their elected officials show a little more fight before running up the white flag.

27
Out: Shall v. Will

In: Onus v. Anus

28
Obama today:

"Right now, the House of Representatives is still trying to pass a bill that a majority of Republicans and Democrats in the Senate have already said they won't vote for. It's a plan that would force us to re-live this crisis in just a few short months, holding our economy captive to Washington politics once again."

Obama's real fear is bolded for emphasis.

29

Ace ace ace.  Why are you coming at me with all those republican talking points such as "compromise" and "spending cuts"?  Why can't you just get on board the President's plan?  Oh, and if you skip out early again today, I'm going to give you a good tongue lashing!

30 I have already deigned to scold you in in public.  Is that not compromise?

31 it's 104 pages

synopsis?

Boned.

32 Everybody talks big for a fight and everyone was a Tea Party member when all it meant was holding a sign on a street corner summer '09. Then the big fight comes and all of a sudden it's "Oh no, don't be irresponsible! Let the Dems control the messaging and convince the public if we hit the debt ceiling we all die! We'll play nice and get 'em next time! Swearsies!"

33 In terms of electoral mandate, the Republicans ran expressly on cutting spending, and Obama and the Democrats did not expressly run on increasing spending 30% or raising taxes.

Because the RNC is used to pre-emptive surrender.

Make no mistake, no debt limit increase is MUCH MUCH MUCH worse for the left then us.

CCB should be our absolute minimum acceptable bargain.Arguably we should be demanding the removal of cabinent level departments AND Obamacare for any increase.

34 19 it's 104 pages

synopsis?

It appears anything related to education is gone, meaning the cut is somewhat bigger. I will have to skim the rest before I can tell you.

35

To put this another way:

Even if they put in the $4 trillion in cuts the S&P originally noted that was needed to maintain a AAA rating (and despite the fact they have backtracked on that some), it would mean that they are acceptable of another $10+ trillion in federal debt.

Think about it, most of us are complaining about the $14+trillion debt we have now, and the S&P is signalling that $25+trillion in in debt in 2021 is AAA-okay with them.

36 Can I have the plane back now?

37 General Pickett?

38 Why can't we emphasize the fact that the Republicans have done the dirty work and presented a compromise bill once, and almost 2x before Toonces had a temper tantrum and said no? Why are our representatives not burning up the airwaves pointing to the people who demand compromise BUT DON'T EVEN HAVE A PLAN???????? Nope, give in, give them what they want, we'll have a real fight after 2012.

39 The onus should be on the democrats but no one talks about that. It's much to easier to bad mouth each other and create a scapegoat that is the already unpopular tea party. Frustrating.

40

Make no mistake, and let me be clear -  

I am a petulant cunt.

41 Obama says he's all but agreed to entitlement reforms and other cuts. He just demands tax hikes in return. Ace - Boehner even agreed to the tax hikes - I know he lied and said he didn't, they are new revenues just like the Democrats euphemize. But Boehner caved to that, and he got the Flounder lesson. Cave some more. If the President "needs" more taxes, he can wait. He's got a couple more years in this term. He can just propose a tax increase later. If we are on the brink of Armageddon, don't you think that the President could compromise on that? Heck, maybe he could compromise so that the Dems can win back the House in 2012 and then they can tax all they want? Why risk it, if that is all that stands between us and DOOM?

42 Fred and you other idiots, you keep saying they control 2/3 of the place, we can't get anything we want. Well guess what? They need more than that to get what THEY want. I never see you mention that. Why is it in negotiations we always seem to have to cave to their demands. They need us to pass their crap. If we didn't always give in to them like you want then we would be in a better position.

43

The message in the media is that the Republicans need to compromise because the Democrats have already compromised: no "clean" raise of the ceiling, no new taxes, and spending cuts. The message is that in exchange for all of those concessions, the Republicans have given nothing.

That's the message that needs a strong rebuttal.

44 #39 Yes, exactly. Once the heat got turned up 1 bit everyone got mad at the Tea party for doing what it said it would do. Once it demanded real cuts it was "bad politics".

45
Assuming the new bill passes...

does the Senate have the time to hack it up? My instinct tells me no and that they want to get out of DC as soon as possible.

46 How big is an Onus? 

47 Perhaps the issue is that conservatives are just not used to the idea of leverage.

The left wants to spend money, lots more money. The debt limit stops them.

The people collectively do no want to raise the debt limit without serious spending cuts.

So if you EVER WANT TO CUT SPENDING NOW IS THE GOD DAMN TIME.

The people are on our side, the situation is favorable, the need is desperate. CARPE DIEM for once your spineless "representatives"

48 Alex #11 Has it. Yes, we need to win in 2012, but if we won't fight now, how on earth do we expect to do that?

49

I am a petulant cunt.

And you're also a dick.

Is Obama a political hermaphrodite, displaying the worst characteristics of both sexes?

50 The only problem with this is that senate republicans won't hold the line on a BBA. Nope, they'll quickly vote it down and move on.

51 Democrats keep setting a standard and demanding that everyone else live up to it.  It's their whole M.O.

That's what 'Political Correctness' is all about.

If 'Social Justice' was never enacted by the US Congress, and signed into law, then why are we acting on behalf of these rules?
.

52 Um, why? Granted that we'd sure like to avoid a downgrade, but why must the compromise come on the spending-cut side? By the polls, cutting spending is more popular than simply raising the debt ceiling (which is decidedly unpopular). In terms of electoral mandate, the Republicans ran expressly on cutting spending, and Obama and the Democrats did not expressly run on increasing spending 30% or raising taxes.

Ummm...isn't this what we in the Shire have been saying for a couple of years now?

The Tea Party have been the ONLY serious ones in this whole affair. I'm really fucking sick and tired of unserious right and the media, who have re-kindled their romance, control the message.

53 My life fades... the vision dims. All that remains are memories.

I remember a time of chaos; ruined dreams, this wasted land...

Posted by: Their leaders talked, and talked, and talked... at July 29, 2011 12:02 PM (YJnnt)

From The Road Warrior?

54

So why is the onus on the Republicans?

What's an onus?  Is that what makes you an onanist?

55

What? Who is this Mark Levin guy? Clearly he's just a purist rabble-rouser without any real pedigree.......

Oh, what's that? A law school grad who worked for the Justice Dept. under Reagan and wrote the most important political book of the last decade? Fucking purist.

56 54 Of course.

57

Funny how when Dems had supermajority control of Congress with the Presidency how raising taxes was never a priority with them when they were in full control. Neither was it a problem for them to run up $4 trillion in added debt with their wild-ass spending in a little over 2 yrs. Suddenly with Republican Congress, Dems scream that it's "irresponsible" not to raise taxes.

 

 

58 They're voting? They're voting?

59
All I want to know is two things.

1. How much are they giving Obama?
2.  How much total is being cut and over what period of time?
3. How much is being cut immediately?

okay, three things

60 I'm Dumby, Gumby, Dammit!

61 The editorial stance of this blog gives me whiplash.

62 According to DaveWeigel on twitter: Yes, folks, second tranche (2012) of debt limit hike is conditional on BBA passing both houses So it has to pass not just vote. Now is the time to give the Senate hell and keep this in the bill.

63

Finally!  A rational explanation for ObamaÂ’s popularity.  Source is clearly partisan, but you go with what you got!

We were obviously too blinded by ideology to see how awesome the man truly is.

64 Why does anyone think that creating a "trigger" on the second tranche makes it go down any differently from today? Why would the President do anything differently? Why couldn't he just threaten to say look, the Republicans are being inflexible the world is going to end if we don't raise the debt ceiling they are holding old people hostage blah blah blah? Why exactly do we think that Boehner is so danged clever that he can create a trap that the Dems can't get out of especially when he is explaining the trap as a selling point?

65

Think about it, most of us are complaining about the $14+trillion debt we have now, and the S&P is signalling that $25+trillion in in debt in 2021 is AAA-okay with them.

Posted by: Dilligas at July 29, 2011 11:59 AM (HhjUQ)

I think I'm going to be sick...

66 Onuses are like opinions.  Everybody's got one.

67 How big is an Onus? 
Posted by: cherry π at July 29, 2011 12:03 PM

It's not the size of the onus.  It's the hemorrhoids that surround it that are the real pain.

68 another thing that bugs me with the lack of the messaging, Why wasn't a budget written for the last 2 plus years?

isn't this an indication to any reasonable person that the Dems never wanted to be fiscally responsible in any way ?
why is the burden on Reps to be bi partisan and throw more funding to a Party that takes the credit cards shops til they drop and then lies about who is irresponsible and threatening the old  and the young people?

69 We keep dancing to the Dem's tune. We've sent a package, they said no. That's it. The end. No more negotiating. They already "voted" in a letter NO to the new plan that ISN'T EVEN DONE in the House. Make a stink in the press that this is obvious bad faith, why waste time and effort? If they are so damn sure of themselves they don't even need to see a new plan to know it's bad let them fix the old one or propose some damn ideas themselves.

70

And you're also a dick.

^{Posted by: Mark Halperin at July 29, 2011 12:03 PM (9hSKh)}

 

Are you threatening me?

71 I don't know if this had been mentioned...but it just cracks me up.

All of this is waaaaaay beyond Petey's comprehension.

I'm sure he's dead to the world after a couple of hours of Nickelodeon a few Juice Boxes

72 I'm not seeing any desire on the part of democrats to go further. So let's take what's politically feasible to avoid short term disaster and position this for 2012. I get that people want ACTION NOW. But this is why I was kinda morose after the last election: we just didn't get the tsunami we needed to ensure ACTION NOW. That's just a fact. We can adjust our short term goals in light of reality or we can hand Obama a way out of owning this economic mess next election. As Edmund Burke said, more than two centuries ago: "Preserving my principles unshaken, I reserve my activity for rational endeavors."

73 Yea, I like the idea of the BBA trigger...except it yet again makes no difference if our side isn't actually willing to see brinksmanship all the way through to the actual brink.

74 The editorial stance of this blog gives me whiplash.

It's a wide stance.  Come on in.

75 The editorial stance of this blog gives me whiplash.

Best as I can tell, there isn't one.  Probably aren't even editorial staff meetings among the Ewok and his cobloggers, which is just as well; they'd probably devolve into drunken brawls anyway.  Though with blunt objects, as nobody would want to spill the Valu-Rite just to get a cutting weapon.

76 Debbie Was-a-Man Schlitz is on AMessNBC right now.

G*d she's hot.

Bunk!!

77 OMG, Boehner's plan is like a real PDF and stuff.  With words and everything.

78

I get that people want ACTION NOW. But this is why I was kinda morose after the last election: we just didn't get the tsunami we needed to ensure ACTION NOW. That's just a fact.

----------

No, I'm sorry but the biggest wave election in most of our life-times is a tsunami.

79

It's a wide stance.

 

Is there any other kind?

80 "I'm not seeing any desire on the part of democrats to go further. So let's take what's politically feasible to avoid short term disaster and position this for 2012." Hey, you want to come over to my house to play poker? Seriously, the Dems just have to say, no, we aren't going to do this, so that means Republicans have to cave? Why can it not go the other way? Why can't the Dems go, hey, the Republicans aren't going to do this, we'll have to compromise?

81

So why is the onus on the Republicans?

 

Because Boehner's expert negotiating skills worked it out so that it would be that way.  Boehner wants the anus.

82 Is this the scenario: Debt limit increase contingent on House and Senate passage of BBA? I like that. It will pass the House. If the democrats in the Senate block it or refuse to vote for a BBA, then we win!

83 Boehner's plan is like a real PDF and stuff.  With words and everything.

Haha, Boehner's dumb.

84 @83 Should have taken the McCain sock off.

85 According to DaveWeigel on twitter:

Dave Weigel??

Ever seen that guy?? It's more like FrankenWeigel....grrrrrrrrr!

86
Please remove your Onus sir.
- The Chicken

87 the onus is as big as uranus, maybe bigger

88 @83 and 85 I'm stupid.

89 Fred I respect your position, I really do. Gabe's too. The issue is, and you'd probably agree, is that there is no trust that after 2012 we'd be willing to pick up the fight. Especially since the Tea Party ideal, previously so popular, is under attack at the first sign of trouble. I say fight now because there's no guarantee we'll get the opportunity again.

90 And the MFM spin on this? Obama tells congress to get the deal done. Brave Sir Barry is above the fray looking down at the squabble and as "the adult in the room" scolds them for not working together. Meanwhile in reality land it's Barry who has proposed nothing and has said he'd veto everything so far.

91 Someone tell me why the BBA trigger gambit won't be demagogued the next time that the debt ceiling comes around? Because I don't see any desire on the Democrats part to move any further. And that is absolutely the standard.

92

Why does noone point out that, just as Republicans explicitly ran on spending cuts in 2010, ... so did Obama in 2008!

93 Should have taken the McCain sock off.

Posted by: Senator McCain at July 29, 2011 12:12 PM (Xm1aB)

Have you seen that TV show "V"? Don't do it, man.

94 Can you describe the onus, Sir?

95 BBA makes Boehner's plan worth voting for. Let the Dems in the Senate and King Putt look like assholes for voting the plan down just because they don't want future restrictions on spending. Of course if Boehner had been smart he would have kept pushing CCB this entire time rather than fumbling around the last three days.

96 What cannot continue, won't.

97 O/T, just read that story on the sidebar about the Turkish Armed Forces' top commanders all resigning, at once.

That can't be good.

98  We will fight harder on the next budget.
promise

We are doomed, but we won't slow the car down!

99
The editorial stance of this blog gives me whiplash.


I'm spinning so much I'm a dreidel.

100 Over at insty, he has a poll where the pragmatists are winning 2 to 1 over the holdouts.  I am a holdout.

101 Someone tell me why the BBA trigger gambit won't be demagogued the next time that the debt ceiling comes around?

Posted by: blaster at July 29, 2011 12:13 PM (l5dj7)

 

"Shut up.  That's why.  We'll hold firm next time ..." -- GOP

102 89 @83 and 85

I'm stupid.

Posted by: Dave at July 29, 2011 12:12 PM (Xm1aB)

That's where you should have left the sock on!

103 Weee   -80.90 (-0.66%)

104
let's sing!

I have a little dreidel. I made it out of clay.
When it's dry and ready, then dreidel I shall play.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, I made it out of clay.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, then dreidel I shall play.

happy chanukah, everyone!

105

 Turkish Armed Forces' top commanders all resigning, at once.

 

Obama is going to leave us with three new Irans.

Take that President Peanut.

106 Republican bill being jammed through, with no trasnparency,
Reid

107 77 Debbie Was-a-Man Schlitz is on AMessNBC right now. G*d she's hot. Bunk!! Posted by: beedubya at July 29, 2011 12:10 PM (AnTyA) The heroin addict look is HAWT.

108 Can someone take this Onus?
- The Dow

109

I'd rather lose the 2012 election to Obama than to compromise even one iota on my principles.  Principles over politics, that's my credo.

Along similar lines I'd burn my own home to the ground and make my entire family homeless before I'd compromise with the bank and modify my home loan.  They don't like the fact I can't make my monthly payment?  Well, pencil heads, then foreclose and evict me.  Make my day.

110 Are we that fucking enamored of our own cleverness that we think that a trigger does anything? Jeebus, we are agreeing to give a trillion dollar tranche away for a cut that rounds to zero, and then we are going to trick the Democrats into voting for a Balanced Budget Amendment (that they have shown no desire to move on) for another $1.5T tranche. Will Armageddon not be in the offing the next time we have a debt ceiling deadline? Will there not be a BBA is for purists argument then? Will the possibility that the press won't try to blame Republicans for the impasse, crisis, end of the world what have you go away? Seriously, are we that stupid?

111

Posted by: DJIA at July 29, 2011 12:16 PM (GTbGH)

 

Good to see you back on it.

112
hahaha @ "with no transparency"

yeah, it's all a big secret, Harry, you dunce

113 Obama is going to leave us with three new Irans. Posted by: garrett at July 29, 2011 12:17 PM (GD1c9) AND Radical Iranian Nuclear-tipped Missiles in Venezuela! Unprecedented!!

114 This is like a negotiation between a boss and employee for a raise where the Republican House is the employee and the Democrat Senate, Democrat WH and left wing MSM is the boss. The playing field is not level.

115

Soetero needs to have his nuts cut off (political nuts) today not 2012.

Stand firm House Tea Party Stalwarts!!

116 If I don't stand up for Auntie Z, who will?

117

Someone tell me why the BBA trigger gambit won't be demagogued the next time that the debt ceiling comes around?

It will be, but that is a massive hammer to be used against them (assuming the Republicans have the stones to use it). If I am not mistaken, polling shows that the public highly favors a balanced budget amendment. Polling also shows that the public does not want a debt ceiling increase.

Pass this today and if the Democrats balk next time around you hold them to this vote. And the optics of it being an election year make it even worse for them. This is even better than making them vote on a debt ceiling increase next year.

I like this idea. Do it.

118 if the debt ceiling is not increased every american will feel an increase in taxes
Reid

hahahaha, so when Dems want to raise taxes it is Fair, cause spending lots of americans cash to buy votes and power  is a good and just thing ! when taxes will be raised because of lack of responsibilty and compromise on dems side, Taxes raised is UnFair.

119
/clutches heart

My heart!

Get the paddles!

120 The playing field is not level.

But we are holding the Penske files hostage.

121 "If I am not mistaken, polling shows that the public highly favors a balanced budget amendment. Polling also shows that the public does not want a debt ceiling increase." So if this is true, why is CCB dead?

122 116 Soetero needs to have his nuts cut off Boogidy-Boogidy-Boogidy, AMEN!!

123 90, Tea Party ideal, previously so popular, is under attack at the first sign of trouble. Under attack by who? Attacking the Tea Party, their Ideals or whatever is like attacking a singular Fire ant in an ant hill. We are not going away because the Media, ruffled pols or nervous clueless citizens think we are unreasonable. Reasonable to that crew would be for us to STFU. That's not going to happen.

124 Uh, Harry, increased interest rates on everyone must be paid to private creditors, thus not a tax. You don't like it Harry because that money isn't going into your pocketbook asshole.

125
If we don't raise the debt limit, gas could climb as high as $3.75/gal!

126 Sweep the leg.

127 I keep saying: THE MEDIA IS THE REAL OPPONENT IN 2012 (or any time until their demise or sudden epiphany that they've been backing the wrong horse. Fat chance of that!)

Republicans seem to have a blind spot for the MBM. They keep expecting LUCY to hold the ball and still are surprised when she jerks it away.

How dumb can they be? Is it their integrity? They can't imagine that someone can smile at them and be cheerful and pleasant and still want to gut them like a trout?

If anything THAT should be top priority for TEA Partiers; the reeducation of all candidates about the calumny and viciousness of those in the MBM.

Sarah Palin can present the seminar.

128
If we don't raise the debt ceiling raid the Treasury, unemployment could go to 9% or more!

129

Posted by: Fred at July 29, 2011 11:50 AM (xWGQr)

Horseshit.

We want the Government to spend Less money.  The PRESIDENT needs the House to act, so he can spend MORE money.

HE is the one who needs the positive act of the Debt limit increase... yet he has produced no plan or legislation to do so...

The Status quo... if nothing is done... is that the Government is forced to equal out Income (which it DOES have) with spending.... which is somthing WE WANT!!!!

Yes it will hurt because it is a self made crises... but its Obama who needs the Congress to do somthing....

And the House Repubs, including Boney, have fallen into the trap where THEY are the ones who now have to 'fix' this....

130 OT: Your frightening statistic of the day...

Apple holds more cash than the U.S. Government

131 Wait, first what people have been bashed over the head for all week is suddenly a good idea, and now people are unironically quoting Dave "JournoList" Weigel? Did Spock have a beard?

132 If we don't raise the Debt Limit, Unemployment will hit 8 Percent!!!

133

The Senate hasn't passed anything of its own to be crushed in the House.

Obusted hasn't had to veto anything.

Nothing has been mooted to bend the exponential growth in spending.

QED, $400 Billion in interest payments last year on our debt becomes $500 Billion this.  The downgrade is already priced in.

134

OT - Ben's sidebar story about the Turkish Armed Forces:

It's from Zero Hedge (yes, yes, I know - but supposedly they got it from Reuters, although I haven't seen their story yet), but if true, this is a big fucking deal.

Turkey does have the second-largest army in NATO and unlike most of their Middle East brethern, the Turks can fight competently.  Now leaderless, who knows how many of Erdoðan's Islamist "sleeper" officers in the Turkish army can now take higher command?

The danger might be a bit overblown, but this development has to be watched.  Dangerous chills might be going through the spines of everyone in the IDF about now...

/In the end, there will be only chaos.

135

ItÂ’s obvious that Ted Nugent does not comprehend how these things work.

Ted, when things like this happen, you give them more money.  

Glad I could help.

136 This is what has been driving me nuts too.It also,IMHO, kind of verifies that Boehner was the wrong person to have leading this from the start. Boehner lost this at the very beginning in saying that they wouldn't allow a default, not that they would but of course but in saying it,it forced the entire deal onto the shoulders of the House and virtually eased any pressure on the Senate do anything but sit back and watch the House fumble around, hence, it allowed the Senate to become the POTUS. For the house members to not understand that is incompetence, they literally boxed themselves into taking the blame from the get go while at the same time knee capping any real negotiating power, It looking like this is collusion between the House establishment and both sides of the aisle in the senate to purge the Tea Party members and I mean that. These guys aren't rookies, they knew what they were doing from the start. There is trillions of dollars at stake here.The plan is to get that money and purge the Tea party being they are the only thing standing between them and the money. You heard it here first.

137 All the Senate has to do is take up CCB. IT doesn't even require them to PASS the BBA, just vote on it. Then they have a debt limit increase.

138 You're Welcome, Guys!!

139 Wasn't the Turkish army pretty much the only thing in the way of Turkey going full-blown Islamist?

140

John Boehner stars as a battered woman in a touching tale of compromise gone awry in

Not Without My Onus

141
Reid/Carney to call Boehner "Scrooge" in 5, 4, 3, 2...

142

Obama panhandling for phone calls of support again. 

Truly pathetic.

143 brb, doing Greece.

144 John Boehner stars as a battered woman in a touching tale of compromise gone awry in Not Without My Onus It should be the Burning Bed.

145 19 it's 104 pages

synopsis?

It looks like National Journal might have grabbed the wrong bill, is what I'm seeing. I was wondering about that...

146 140 Wasn't the Turkish army pretty much the only thing in the way of Turkey going full-blown Islamist? Posted by: Ian S. at July 29, 2011 12:24 PM (tqwMN) Past tense.

147 "coward" ?? takes one to know one.

148 With the BBA trigger that won't pass in the Senate, aren't we basically pushing the date for deciding whether to stand now or wait until six months closer to the election?

If we make the decision to compromise now, we should at least do it sooner than later, right?

149

We are at the point of no return.  The election doesn't matter.  The narritive doesn't matter.

Yesterday someone said "Perception is reality."  In this case not facing up to reality is a delusion.

We close being in a square circle if we aren't there yet. This issue is about one thing: the government's excess spending.  It must stop. Everything else is a symptom.  The debt, the debt ceiling, the debt rating. If the spending doesn't get under control the entire system collapses on itself.  And that will stop more government spending than even the most libertarian would advocate, because there would be no money foranybody.

It's simple in a way.  Just like Chief Justice Roberts said the way to eliminate descrimination is to not descriminate; the way to avoid debt is to stop spending more than you take in. That's the starting point.

150

Wasn't the Turkish army pretty much the only thing in the way of Turkey going full-blown Peaceful Muslim Moderate Islamist?

_{cleansed for a quick sale}

151 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?

152 127 Sweep the leg.

Posted by: the teaparty at July 29, 2011 12:21 PM (GTbGH)

Frakkin' Hobbit!

153
glad I didn't read it, then!

154 The idea has to be to get the conservatives to vote using this bill, conference this out with the Senate, then rely on mainly Dems to pass it when it comes back.

Right?

155 So, we just do nothing to get the debt ceiling raised, standing firm on our principles. And when the economy takes the hit (not sure how big it will be, but folks with skin in the game seem to think it will be significant), Obama and his allies in the media make the resulting fall-out the GOP's problem. And outside of the conservative blogs, you know there's roughly half the population that's gonna buy that bullshit story. Again, reality. I wish the electorate sounded like the comment section of this blog, or the Mark Levin show, but it doesn't.

156 Around his anus, a little.

157 140 Wasn't the Turkish army pretty much the only thing in the way of Turkey going full-blown Islamist?   Yes, and even that last line of protection was being whittled away over the past decade as Turkey made several "reforms" which weakened the Turkish military's grip on Turkish politics (so Turkey could attempt to join the EU, which in itself is a bad idea for Europe at large).   Progressoverpeace wrote some very good missives explaining why Turkey is on the cusp of becoming The Islamic Republic of Turkey.

158 Link to Reuters story on Turkish commanders.  It attributes it to CNN Turk, for which I can say absolutely nothing; make of it what you will.

159 OT Funny Hobbit Tea Party McCain mash ups.

160

the debt ceiling SHOULD not be raised......the solution is restructuring the debt........

161

So if this is true, why is CCB dead?

Because McConnell cut it off at the knees.

The difference with this plan is that in order to get that second increase the BBA must pass Congress and be sent to the states.

162 Frankly, aren't we due some consequences? Let's get it over with so my kids don't have to live under this intolerable debt and overspending. As someone said the other day, let it all burn (except the military).

163

@68: "It's not the size of the onus.  It's the hemorrhoids that surround it that are the real pain."

I respectfully disagree. Size matters.

164 Obama is going to leave us with three new Irans.


Posted by: garrett at July 29, 2011 12:17 PM (GD1c9)

AND Radical Iranian Nuclear-tipped Missiles in Venezuela!

Unprecedented!!

There will be no more superpowers.  There will be more balance of power.  That's what we need.  Balance, damn it, balance! 

165 President Abdullah Gül, has always had a hard line Islamist view hasn't he?

166 The House needs to pass a bill raising the ceiling by $400B and deauthorize the $187B of TARP still outstanding. That will take it out of the baseline. By CBO scoring, that will be a zillion dollars. Just do it, see if Reid can say he won't allow a vote. See if the President will say he will veto. Then take it all up in the 2012 budget.

167 God bless Mark Levin. He hits the nub of the matter ... The fear Repubs have of being declared the loser in this debate. Let's accept that that's a given. We are the problem, the crazies, the extremists in the eyes of libs, dems, and the media (I won't even go to the " but I repeat myself" joke here because it's so obvious) . So let's be liberated from the fear of losing this round. We've lost it. But in losing it we can win the bigger war.

168
Our biggest concern, what could cause us the most political damage, is for people's 401K's to take a hit. That would hurt us.

Other than that, we have nothing to fear from a 'default.'

169 between Egypt Iran, Turkey,  two of which used to be decent / if creepy partners.. How's Saudi Arabia looking lately ?

170 Hey, I just discovered it was Fore! not Four!

171 165 Obama is going to leave us with three new Irans. Posted by: garrett at July 29, 2011 12:17 PM (GD1c9) AND Radical Iranian Nuclear-tipped Missiles in Venezuela! Unprecedented!! There will be no more superpowers. There will be more balance of power. That's what we need. Balance, damn it, balance! At least Americans won't feel like they're the center of the universe, THANK GOD!!!

172 Usually the Generals resign after they close the airports, but before they take over the broadcast radio and tv; this coup might be different.

173 #162

But the BBA will be taken out in the Senate, right? I would imagine the limit will be raised as well.

That means a debt increase until 2013 without the BBA will make it back to the House, where mainly Dems will sign it.

OR

We'll have the same exact fight six months from now and no reasonable method for deferring any longer.

174 OT Funny Hobbit Tea Party McCain mash ups.

Posted by: Wonkish Rogue at July 29, 2011 12:27 PM (iHtIN)

Snicker.

175

Perfect example of a media idiot who refuses to let facts get in the way of a leftist thesis.

Unfortunately, the U.K. is probably too far gone to save.

176 You heard it here first.

Posted by: Drider at July 29, 2011 12:23 PM (uJSfP)

And its going to backfire.

This vote almost ensures a push for a Third Party in the next few election cycles...

Which, contrary to many, IMHO may be a good thing.  I still believe that the only reason we had a balanced budget under Clinton was that Ross Perot was a viable threat to the two party stranglehold on power.... they HAD to do somthing to neutralise that threat.... and worked together to balance the budget...

A TEA party as third party could well force the same thing....even though it would be a blood bath for Republicans.

177 Seems like ace is coming around to the EXXXTREME view. So where did he read the explanation of the math? He sure didn't read it here.

178 Obama's real fear is bolded for emphasis.

I don't see how a rerun of this "Republicans cave all over the place and re-alienate fiscal cons; media reinforce extant teabagger-insanity/Democrat-stability/squish-sensibility narrative; father Obama stands above it all, calmly requesting cooperation to Save America! (calmly)" show can cause him any trouble.

If he does fear that, it's because he's dumb. But I don't think he is, not about this sort of thing.

What he's doing is instilling fear, and laying daddy-told-you-so groundwork in case Republicans resist this fear-play—and doing so knowing that the more times this show happens, the less one-the-ground electoral opposition he and his party will face.

Obama never loses a story. He knows what character he plays in them.

179 The difference with this plan is that in order to get that second increase the BBA must pass Congress and be sent to the states. Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at July 29, 2011 12:28 PM (JxMoP) Again, explain to me how this won't be exactly the same thing as now? The Democrats won't pass the BBA, they will claim that they were extorted to do it before, and are being extorted now, and that without a debt ceiling raise, the world will end and your granmother will die cold and alone on the ice pack. Why won't they do it, and why wouldn't the Republicans cave the same way then? What card will they have that will make their hand that much stronger?

180 154  glad I didn't read it, then!

I am so incredibly sorry. It had been posted several places as being the bill. Some conservative reporters are now contacting people about what and where is the right bill.

181 Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life? Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair. Mongol General: Wrong! Onan! What is best in life? Onan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to fap to the lamentation of their women. Mongol General: That is good! That is good.

182 166 President Abdullah Gül, has always had a hard line Islamist view hasn't he?   Yes, but he has "moderated" i.e. is hiding his true face from the rest of the world.   Abdullah Gül: The Man Who Would be Turkey's President
On the other hand, despite his perceived even-handedness, Gül continues to cause concerns in the Western world.

His continued close contacts with Islamic organizations have particularly worried the US, especially after he welcomed a Hamas delegation to Ankara, presented a timid stance against Iran's nuclear program and made bellicose statements about attacking Kurdish rebels in Northern Iraq, all of which did little to convince Washington that a Gül presidency could be fully depended on.

Gül also harshly criticized the EU on Cyprus and the US on its Middle East policies; however, in both cases, he also adopted a constructive and moderate approach that enabled quickly mending the ties.

Despite these instances, Gul's overall performance in the last four years has been taken by many Western powers as evidence of his new moderate ideas.

However, at home, Turkey's secularists still believe that this is just double-speak and AKP is in fact itching to dismantle the secular character of Turkish state.

183 152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really? Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD) Of course there will be consequences. Just as there will be consequences if we raise the debt limit. Your problem is that you REFUSE to consider the latter, which are IMHO *worse* than the former.

184 What is the plan in six months when we are in the exact same place? Another short-term plan of cuts and another longer-term deal dependent on passage of a BBA that will have already failed with the same people?

It appears that the Republicans are more worried about waiting for the Tea Party to change than for the Democrats to change.

185 "We only control 1/2 of one house of Congress so we can't do anything.'

"The Democrats control the Senate so we can't do anything."

"Obama has the White House so we can''t do anything."

If you Establishment Republicans can't do anything then why are you still in D.C.

If you can't do anything then go home. Go back home and hide under your bed since all you can do is hold up your hands and cry about how it's hopeless and you can't do anything.

Us Hobbits will stay and fight and we'll march into Mordor by ourselves.

If you can't do anything then go home. Your just getting in the way of those who are not willing to lay down and hand Middle Earth to Lord Sauron.

186
The fear lies in the fact that conservatives have put a spotlight on the debt crisis.

Obama wants everyone to be comfortably numb in 2012.

Good times are right around the corner. Trust Obama.

And don't stop thinking about tomorrow.

187 Simply pass the BBA trigger to the Senate and tell the truth==if Senate democrats and the president won't go along with the BBA then there is nothing else the House can do--no votes. Squarely in the democrats' lap. Forget the fucking media, the American people will get it. I hope.

188

I'd rather lose the 2012 election to Obama than to compromise even one iota on my principles.  Principles over politics, that's my credo.

------

Levin, and now Ace, laid out the reasons why it's actually the Democrats who need to compromise on this issue. The polls on spending and the BBA are in our favor. So explain to me how it is that we lose the election by standing firm on that ground and making them move our way?

189 Mark Levin should be required listening for anyone who considers themselves a conservative.  You can listen to his entire show, for free, online everyday:  http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930

190 Obama's super-duper seeekret non-public plan

191 What does Boehner think the consequences will be when the combined bill comes back without the BBA trigger and he gets enough Republicans to side with Democrats to pass the bill?

How can the 'optics' of this be better than the alternative many of us have been pushing?

192 It appears that the Republicans are more worried about waiting for the Tea Party to change than for the Democrats to change.

Posted by: Paper at July 29, 2011 12:34 PM (B5qn7)

 

bingo!

 

193

But the BBA will be taken out in the Senate, right? I would imagine the limit will be raised as well.

That means a debt increase until 2013 without the BBA will make it back to the House, where mainly Dems will sign it.

Success in this hinges on the Republicans staying strong right now, which is probably easier said than done. If the Senate takes BBA out, then you walk away. At some point you have to have the strength to walk away from a bad deal.

There won't be a fight six months from now if we stick to this plan because the Democrats will not have the stomach for it. We make them out to be these supermen, when in reality they succeed primarily because our side caves.

194 152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really? Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD) Relax, Francis. I'm sure the debt limit will in the end get raised. But don't you think the awful results of not raising it is proof positive of how horribly addicted to deficit spending we are? That the REAL crisis isn't the debt ceiling, but the DEBT? Really?

195 As for me, I say vote this thing through the House, but when the Senate removes the BBA section then stand firm. Of course, they won't do that....

196 Asking for a debt plan from our great and glorious leader is merely a Republican talking point.

197 I'll bet Levin would have voted "Go" at the SHAEF meeting on June 5, 1944

198
ahhh, so Reid should be saying that Obama is the one being opaque

199 Good Lord, surely the Republicans can unite and refuse to pass anything in the House sent from the Senate without the BBA. I mean, since when is it extreme for a mainline Republican to support a BBA? Must one be a crazy Tea Partier now to take that stand?

200 There won't be a fight six months from now if we stick to this plan because the Democrats will not have the stomach for it. We make them out to be these supermen, when in reality they succeed primarily because our side caves. Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at July 29, 2011 12:37 PM (JxMoP) Exactly. So again, what is the basis of your belief that in 6 months the GOP will be stronger or smarter in their negotiations? They have neither the skill nor, more importantly, the will.

201 #194

I just don't believe that on Monday or Tuesday when a bill without BBA comes to the House after the Senate has passed the bill and the President has supported the bill and all the Democrats in the House support the bill, a couple dozen Republicans won't vote for the bill to avert potential default catastrophe.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Isn't this the most plausible scenario right now?

202
btw, Scott Brown was on the radio this morning.

Brown will vote Aye for anything. Anything. He doesn't care; he just wants to "come together" and find a solution.

203
that's not my opinion, btw, that's what Scott said

204

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

205

I'm just sort of tired of this now. I learned all I needed to know early on in this thing when I figured out, once again, that the Rs were not willing to actually take it to the brink. Which of course, was their only leverage. So when you reveal from the start that you aren't willing to actually leverage your only card, the game has already been lost.

Although, it was really neat watching them fuck up even more when Boehner went ahead and bid against himself. That was special.

 

206 Am I wrong in thinking this? Isn't this the most plausible scenario right now? Posted by: Paper at July 29, 2011 12:39 PM (B5qn7) Of course. And when it happens, the Republicans will blame the Tea Party for not supporting Boehner, which would have been a small victory! Ignoring, of course, that the Dems wouldn't have voted on it, and if they did, it would have been vetoed.

207 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at July 29, 2011 12:33 PM (9hSKh)

Islamists never, NEVER moderate. And that will be the downfall of the West, because we do moderate our positions. And when we moderate the position that we want to preserve our liberty and freedom from savage, 7th century ideas, we will have lost.

208 205

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

209 Kratos , mm, Yes  , I'm sure He is just waiting for the opportunity to join The Brotherhood openly.
I could be wrong but I have become quite un-nerved by the aligning of the Mideast in the last couple of years ,
More interesting is hardly a word from the President of  the good ole USA except platitudes of how it is a good thing for the people to choose their destiny. At least good for the extreme Muslims to choose theirs.
i'm sure the change and the hope  for whirled peas is just around the corner.

210 *yawn*      -57.06 (0.47%)

211

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

Posted by: The Disaster formerly known as Global Warming at July 29, 2011 12:42 PM (NtXW4)

 

I'll just shut up now...

212 Right, so if default is not an option for Republicans, we will basically get whatever the Senate thinks up this weekend.

Which is why I imagine that we still haven't seen a vote. Reps are probably making clear what they will and won't vote for on Monday, Tuesday.

213 Meanwhile, Beck this morning was saying, hey, remember when I said it would be a good idea to stock up on food and prepare for bad things happening?

214

I just don't believe that on Monday or Tuesday when a bill without BBA comes to the House after the Senate has passed the bill and the President has supported the bill and all the Democrats in the House support the bill, a couple dozen Republicans won't vote for the bill to avert potential default catastrophe.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Isn't this the most plausible scenario right now?

--------

No, you're exactly right. It's either go beyond Augsut 2nd or pass a crappy Boehner/Reid/McConnell bill that is worse than useless. Because of how royally we've effed this up, those are the only two options.

215 192 What does Boehner think the consequences will be when the combined bill comes back without the BBA trigger and he gets enough Republicans to side with Democrats to pass the bill?

How can the 'optics' of this be better than the alternative many of us have been pushing?


This is now about taking a more principled stand (is what they're saying) and appearing united against the Dems. It also puts the ball back in Reid's court, since stripping a BBA will look foolish to the public.

216
you know what'd be funny?

If the US market jumps up right after Boehner's plan passes.

217 You are right, Paper.  Its a kabuki dance, we are being played, in the end we take it in the end.

218

Again, explain to me how this won't be exactly the same thing as now? The Democrats won't pass the BBA, they will claim that they were extorted to do it before, and are being extorted now, and that without a debt ceiling raise, the world will end and your granmother will die cold and alone on the ice pack.

Why won't they do it, and why wouldn't the Republicans cave the same way then? What card will they have that will make their hand that much stronger?

Because it will be an election year. Will the Democrats want to go on record not only forcing yet another debt ceiling increase (which is not popular with the public) while also backing out of a requirement to pass a balanced budget amendment (which is popular with the public)?

And if they break the Democrats now, then I believe it will only make the Republicans more confident next year.

219 214 Meanwhile, Beck this morning was saying, hey, remember when I said it would be a good idea to stock up on food and prepare for bad things happening? Posted by: blaster at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (l5dj7) Yes, we can ALWAYS count on Beck to be the Cool Voice of Reason.

220 Am I wrong in thinking this? Isn't this the most plausible scenario right now? Know what Johnny'd do? He'd take that deal and then crawfish and drill them ol' constituents in the ass.

221

Rush:  The Krauthammer REview Online and the Krystol Standard.

hahahahaha!

222 And hobbits are great. But for the debt ceiling I prefer the Space Marine solution.

223 @jamiedupree , things are currently on track for 1am Sunday cloture vote on Reid's bill.

224 remember our chants about NO COMPROMISE?  REMEMBER THAT ? it was back in nov.......

225 the gvt is just like a small child , They don't plan ahead unless it is for the new toy, But the plan does not include how to pay for it.

226 Posted by: Bird Flu at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (NtXW4)

TARP feels left out and needs a hug.

227

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at July 29, 2011 12:42 PM (LH6ir)

Yes, I am quite aware of that - apologies for appearing so blase' about this.  Turkey joining the EU would be a two-fer for the Islamists as it would allow for the complete and utter takeover of the Turkish government and military by Islamists and also help speed up Europe's descent into Islam.

By the way:

Church Web sites hacked to push conversion to Islam

228 So, has everyone had time to limber up" Good, now bend over.

229 It will be, but that is a massive hammer to be used against them (assuming the Republicans have the stones to use it). If I am not mistaken, polling shows that the public highly favors a balanced budget amendment. Polling also shows that the public does not want a debt ceiling increase.

Pass this today and if the Democrats balk next time around you hold them to this vote. And the optics of it being an election year make it even worse for them. This is even better than making them vote on a debt ceiling increase next year.

I like this idea. Do it.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at July 29, 2011 12:19 PM (JxMoP)

Bolded line is the problem. They don't have the stones right now, how the hell are they going to have the stones then??

230

Posted by: Bird Flu at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (NtXW4)

I'm about to wreck this bitch.  Stand aside! 

231 Posted by: Empire of Jeff, EXXXTREMIST at July 29, 2011 12:44 PM (2tTzd)

Being open to anal sex might be a valuable attitude in the coming catastrophe. That and a copy of long pig recipes.

232 115This is like a negotiation between a boss and employee for a raise where the Republican House is the employee and the Democrat Senate, Democrat WH and left wing MSM is the boss. The playing field is not level.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:18 PM (ufGlD)

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  This is like a negotiation between an unemployed husband and his two teenage sons and spendthrift wife to take the next three  housepayments to go on a vacation to Hawaii.  

The Republican House holds the key with the debt ceiling. And they can be responsible. Or they can give in. The debt ceiling stops spending and the credit rating doesn't take a hit.  Spend more money by borrowing and the credit rating takes a hit, the cost of borrowing goes up.   

It's called being responsible.

233

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

Posted by: The Disaster formerly known as Global Warming at July 29, 2011 12:42 PM (NtXW4)

 

I'll just shut up now...

Posted by: Bird Flu at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (NtXW4)

 

Welcome to the party pal!

234 @152 If the debt ceiling IS raised do you think there will be no consequences? The constant raising of the "limit" without cutting back on spending is what got us here in the first place. And your solution is to just make it worse? Sounds like a winning strategy...

235 Because it will be an election year. Will the Democrats want to go on record not only forcing yet another debt ceiling increase (which is not popular with the public) while also backing out of a requirement to pass a balanced budget amendment (which is popular with the public)? And if they break the Democrats now, then I believe it will only make the Republicans more confident next year. Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at July 29, 2011 12:44 PM (JxMoP) So your opinion is that in an election year, the Republicans will have *more* spine to withstand criticism? Are you getting glaucoma treatments in California?

236 So, has everyone had time to limber up"

Good, now bend over.

I knew this whole yoga thing was a government plot.

237 Don't forget me.

238 Me and my Onus.
Taking the high road wherever we go.
Me and my Onus.

239
hey, remember the '80's?

240 #216

I don't see how stripping the BBA and 'looking foolish' in the Senate would even matter compared to Republicans helping to pass the bill from the Senate a day later after spending days waiting for a vote to add the BBA.

Republicans aren't really going to be able to say that taking the BBA out was awful, when they help vote for the bill a day later because default is absolutely off the table, even for a day or week.

241

Rush:  The Krauthammer REview Online and the Krystol Standard.

hahahahaha!

-----------

I love this. Rush openly says their names, but everyone is afraid to say Rush's name when they disagree with him.

Did the WSJ mention Rush in their now infamous Hobbit article? No. Has Kraut? No. Did Kristol when he said those who didn't support the Boehner plan supported Obama? No.

None of the conservatives are actually willing to call Rush out by name when he's opposed to a stance they've taken.

242 234

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

Posted by: The Disaster formerly known as Global Warming at July 29, 2011 12:42 PM (NtXW4)

I'll just shut up now...

Posted by: Bird Flu at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (NtXW4)

Welcome to the party pal!

Posted by: Ozone Hole at July 29, 2011 12:47 PM (4q5tP)

Yeah.... laugh now buttercup... but I'm making a comeback!

243 And don't forget me.

244 yup, thank you, Ace. It's almost eerily quiet out there when the news reports come to polling data...as in, hmmm, there's no polling data. Why would that be? Maybe Boehner could point out that, actually, dickweed media, we are winning this issue and the democrats must compromise.

245 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at July 29, 2011 12:45 PM (9hSKh)

I don't think that you are blasé, I think that you are aware. But then....you are one of those Joo lovers and are familiar with existential threats.

246 209 205

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

------------------------

Look at me. I'm a festering pool of dead sea creatures!

247
Reagan will use the bomb!

248
John Boehner's Giant War Onus will vanquish it's foes.

249 How can the Republicans say that the BBA is so reasonable that it shouldn't have been removed and then vote for the bill anyway on Monday or Tuesday?

It ceases to be a political advantage for the Republicans once the bill without the BBA makes it to Obama.

So basically we get to talk about how out of touch the Senate is for 24-48 hours. Fucking awesome.

250

Look at me. I'm a festering pool of dead sea creatures!

Posted by: The Gulf Oil Spill at July 29, 2011 12:50 PM (iHtIN)

Nah.... thats me...

251 I am so incredibly sorry. It had been posted several places as being the bill. Some conservative reporters are now contacting people about what and where is the right bill.

No worries, 80sBaby. Sounds like the reporters got duped, not you.

BTW, thanks for all the links. I try to read 'em all since they seem to cut to the chase, which I need because this stuff makes my head hurt as it is.

252 Another example of the narrative being used to frame the debate here-- few in the media are hammering Reid over the fact he's been consistently short on his vote counts for his bill. Boehner and McCarthy were incredibly foolish to bring-up a vote without being 100% sure-- which they still haven't learned from past mistakes-- but Reid isn't doing much better.

253 Eeeveryone loves Onus.

254

How can the Republicans say that the BBA is so reasonable that it shouldn't have been removed and then vote for the bill anyway on Monday or Tuesday?

It ceases to be a political advantage for the Republicans once the bill without the BBA makes it to Obama.

So basically we get to talk about how out of touch the Senate is for 24-48 hours. Fucking awesome.

---------

Well, the hope would be that the Rs didn't actually vote for a bill that didn't include the BBA trigger in there...but that hope is probably misplaced.

255 Just biden' my time.  Biden!  Get it?!?!

256

Bolded line is the problem. They don't have the stones right now, how the hell are they going to have the stones then??

Posted by: KG at July 29, 2011 12:46 PM (LD21B)

Oh, and don't say election year because election year will make the Republicans even more weak kneed than they are now.

257 Posted by: The Gulf Oil Spill at July 29, 2011 12:50 PM (iHtIN)

Yeah.

Gulf shrimp are back in the stores. Better and cleaner than the Asian farmed shit.

The original outlook was that we wouldn't have shrimp for five years. I guess Gaia is slightly more forgiving these days.

258 243 234

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

Posted by: The Disaster formerly known as Global Warming at July 29, 2011 12:42 PM (NtXW4)

I'll just shut up now...

Posted by: Bird Flu at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (NtXW4)

Welcome to the party pal!

Posted by: Ozone Hole at July 29, 2011 12:47 PM (4q5tP)

Yeah.... laugh now buttercup... but I'm making a comeback!

Posted by: Ice Age, as Predicted in the 70's at July 29, 2011 12:49 PM (NtXW4)

My plan to destroy the world was foiled by those interfering leftists!!!  {Shakes fist}

259 #186: I like that. Hobbits marching into Mordor, Frodo and Sam. When the rest of the world turned their back. But at least they had a whole cast of characters to hold the attention of Mordor and give them the support they needed to get the job done. All we have is Denethor......

260 123 90, Tea Party ideal, previously so popular, is under attack at the first sign of trouble. Under attack by who? Attacking the Tea Party, their Ideals or whatever is like attacking a singular Fire ant in an ant hill. We are not going away because the Media, ruffled pols or nervous clueless citizens think we are unreasonable. Reasonable to that crew would be for us to STFU. That's not going to happen. Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at July 29, 2011 12:20 PM (ZDUD4) AMEN.

261 #253

But the difference is that it is much easier for Reid to get to 50 because the main concern at the Senate is getting the limit to 2013 than spending cuts.

The tactics are all wrong here. The House is being set up to be the first and last vote on this because both parties (besides a small amount of conservative representatives) really just want to use this for political posturing rather than debt/deficit reduction.

262 OT: Is Palin running for Kyl's Senate spot?

263

Rush pounding hell out of the fearful GOP leadership.

264 Don't get me wrong - I think CCB is a bunch of smoke and mirrors, too. Just a better set. That is why I think that the better way to go is a simple bill with a small(!) raise and clawback of TARP funds is the way to go. The Senate will argue about those two items. They will increase the amount of ceiling lift, and try to eliminate or decrease the clawback. Let them make the case for why they have to have increase the dent by $2T. Let them make the case for why they have to keep all the unspent TARP funds. That is an argument that Republicans should relish. Getting into economic philosophy is pig wrestling.

265

So your opinion is that in an election year, the Republicans will have *more* spine to withstand criticism? Are you getting glaucoma treatments in California?

No, I'm saying that making the Democrats bend to their will now will make it more likely that they will feel confident enough to bend them in the future. One of the reasons the Democrats always seem so confident is because we have a lot of weak sisters on our side. What I am saying is that eventually they will have to stand up and punch the Democrats in the mouth or they are going to continue to be their bitch. Whether it is this plan or CCB or whatever, it has to be their plan and they have to force the Democrats to suck it.

266 McCain didn't need much photoshopping to look like those characters did he?

267 263--nope

268 Whether it is this plan or CCB or whatever, it has to be their plan and they have to force the Democrats to suck it. Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at July 29, 2011 12:57 PM (JxMoP) Okay, call me when that happens.

269 241 #216 I don't see how stripping the BBA and 'looking foolish' in the Senate would even matter compared to Republicans helping to pass the bill from the Senate a day later after spending days waiting for a vote to add the BBA.

Republicans aren't really going to be able to say that taking the BBA out was awful, when they help vote for the bill a day later because default is absolutely off the table, even for a day or week.


It's about the ping-pong match and forcing the Dems to do something. But I don't understand why Boehner didn't agree to just amend this bill from the get-go when he knew some conservative members wanted a BBA requirement for Part 2 in clear, concise English. Boehner had the upper-hand and it didn't have to come to this. Still, it appears the conference still believes he's the right man to lead during these times, and that likely won't change unless he ultimately secures a horrible deal.

270

Okay, call me when that happens.

Isn't that exactly what you want in #265?

271 I've totally given up on this "crisis." In the end, something will pass. Nothing much will change. That's All. If we want REAL change, we need to elect a conservative President and Senate to go along with the House. Until then, all this is much Sound and Fury, amounting to NOTHING.

272 #270

I agree with that. Why go through all of this to just add it now?

I just feel that this raises the stakes for the impending disappointment when the BBA is taken out. Reid is scheduling the Senate votes so that they vote on the final product Tuesday and send it to the House.

Is there any question that the Republicans will help Dems pass a bill without the BBA on Tuesday? That would mean out of all this we only get to put a couple Dem Senate incumbents on the record voting against BBA.

273 Rand Paul was good on Freedom Watch last night. He was asked about McVain calling him and other tea partiers "hobbits," to which he replied "I'd rather be a hobbit than a troll."  Wife and I busted out laughing.  McVain really is looking more and more like the Troll who guards the Bridge of Death.

274 Sometimes Levin is so righteous.

Personally, I think he's a bit of a harpy screecher, but I'm willing to overlook that when he's pissed off at the right people.

Anyway, what really matters is that he's right.  We shouldn't have kicked the can down the road in 2004 or 2006 and we shouldn't have done it in the recent shutdown scare, and we damn sure shouldn't do it now.

The Tea Party is just barely powerful enough to thwart the GOP from agreeing with the democrat party to kick the can down the road.  Just barely.  Every one of us can help just a little bit by calling/writing moderate Republicans.

At the very least, spending this year should not be higher than it was last year.   The rate of expansion must stop.  That such a minor sounding measure = trillions in savings should be a wake up call to just how bad the RINO wing is today.

Balance the budget.  No growth in spending.  No debt ceiling adjustment unless cuts suggest it's the last one we'll ever make.  The problems this stubbornness will cause are minor compared to the problems they will prevent.

Every time we push this problem down the road it gets worse for our country, and frankly at some point it really hurts our political prospects.  Let's make sure America at least has a choice between a responsible political party and the democrats.  Insisting on too political a GOP does rob this country of democracy.

275 262 #253 But the difference is that it is much easier for Reid to get to 50 because the main concern at the Senate is getting the limit to 2013 than spending cuts.

The threshold is apparently 60, unless that too is wrong.


The tactics are all wrong here. The House is being set up to be the first and last vote on this because both parties (besides a small amount of conservative representatives) really just want to use this for political posturing rather than debt/deficit reduction.

To some degree, almost everyone involved in this is engaged in political posturing, and that includes some of those hold-out votes/former hold-out votes. This game is only amusing to people in D.C.

276 263 OT: Is Palin running for Kyl's Senate spot?

Jeff Flake is.

277 #276

The threshold is only 60 if the Senate Republicans were united with threat of a filibuster. Since they are not (only Paul and a dozen or so others don't support Boehner 2.0), Reid will only need 50 votes.

It is discouraging.

278

Jeff Flake will be a nice upgrade in Kyl's seat.

who will take Flake's spot in the House?

279 278 #276 The threshold is only 60 if the Senate Republicans were united with threat of a filibuster. Since they are not (only Paul and a dozen or so others don't support Boehner 2.0), Reid will only need 50 votes.

It is discouraging.


I have read otherwise and he was still short as of this morning, though the first could be wrong. (The second was confirmed by multiple sources.) But he either broke the filibuster or got his last vote, since he's now holding it on Sunday.

280

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

Posted by: The Disaster formerly known as Global Warming at July 29, 2011 12:42 PM (NtXW4)

I'll just shut up now...

Posted by: Bird Flu at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (NtXW4)

Welcome to the party pal!

Posted by: Ozone Hole at July 29, 2011 12:47 PM (4q5tP)

Yeah.... laugh now buttercup... but I'm making a comeback!

Posted by: Ice Age, as Predicted in the 70's at July 29, 2011 12:49 PM (NtXW4)

My plan to destroy the world was foiled by those interfering leftists!!!  {Shakes fist}

Posted by: DDT at July 29, 2011 12:55 PM (FIDMq)

Look upon me, and be afraid!

281 BBA amendment: 
http://tinyurl.com/3lytqh4

282 Screw this. Repubs, give the dems what they want. You don't have the numbers, plain and simple. The ONLY way we fix this is super majorities, period. We have no choice but to wait till 2012. Put ads everywhere showing the dems choosing spending over cutting. All day, all night. Media blitz. Until dems are removed from the playing field, we got nothing.

283 @234:

152 You're making jokes but if the debt limit is not raised at least temporarily do you think there will be no consequences? Really?
Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ufGlD)

Yes, it will be a total disaster!!!! Just like I was!!!

Posted by: Y2K Bug at July 29, 2011 12:41 PM (NtXW4)

And don't forget me!!!! its gotta be 1 Million Zillion degrees by now!

Posted by: The Disaster formerly known as Global Warming at July 29, 2011 12:42 PM (NtXW4)

 

I'll just shut up now...

Posted by: Bird Flu at July 29, 2011 12:43 PM (NtXW4)

 

Welcome to the party pal!

Posted by: Ozone Hole at July 29, 2011 12:47 PM (4q5tP)

----------------

Pikers, the lot of you.

284 115 This is like a negotiation between a boss and employee for a raise where the Republican House is the employee and the Democrat Senate, Democrat WH and left wing MSM is the boss. The playing field is not level.

Posted by: Alabaster Jones formerly polynikes at July 29, 2011 12:18 PM (ufGlD)<<<

Only if you posit that the employee has the key to the executive washroom and everyone's already had a pot of coffee and a water pill.  Oh, and the doors are chained closed.

285 Damn I'm very popular on this site. Luv you guys too.

286

@272: "If we want REAL change, we need to elect a conservative President and Senate to go along with the House."

Probably impossible.  While there are plenty of conservative voters, the number of actual conservative politicians can probably be counted without resorting to taking off one's shoes.

287 " Its not your discretionary spending. Its the mandatory spending. In 2010, you had total revenues of 2.381 trillion. You had mandatory spending (social security, medicare, medicaid, interest payments and other long term agreed to spending [in other words, you have signed the contract - you have to honor the contract]) in the amount of 2.173 trillion."

You're right.  The problem is tremendous.

"So, no, the "problems this stubbornness will cause are minor" doesn't really work. Unless you have a plan to run the rest of the US government on 208 billion."

Just to be clear, I know that there are serious problems if we simply stubbornly wait for real reforms before increasing the debt ceiling.

These problems are only minor in comparison to the problems they prevent (a collapse of our financial system itself, Cloward Piven style, accompanied by all the problems we are trying to prevent if we cave.).

This situation where the left and much of the moderates play such a dangerous game in hopes of scaring us away from real reform... that's inevitable my friend.  They will have a final showdown with high stakes, likely huge riots, and problems that are not really minor.  There's no way to avoid this.  Whenever the time comes to get the government on a real sustainable path, which clearly you accurately recognize as entitlement reform, that time will see our political opponents link that to everything they can. 

It's like a city counsel defunding the fire department if you want to reform their sidewalk art parade.  X 1,000,000,000,000.

You're right.  The consequences for being stubborn today are not minor.  And they are much more minor than the true consequences of kicking the can down the road.  Every time we let this happen, the debt goes up tremendously.  How high was it just a few years ago?  It's gone up about 50%.  Our kids can barely afford this as it is. 

A year and a half more of Obama's spending is worse than forcing the government to pay what's mandatory and shut down the rest.

288 One problem is that it is not humanly possible to fathom our debt.

The debt at the beginning of Bush's term was what... six trillion?  I didn't look it up.  Whatever it was, it was an obscene number beyond human understanding.  So in one way, the debt has not changed at all since then for many people. 

Today it's 14 trillion.  Same number as 6 trillion until you have to pay it back, at which time it's horrible worse.  That's why our credit rating will be reduced unless we hold the line.

If we kick the can a few more times, it will be 20 trillion or 100 trillion.  Really.  And our financial system will collapse.  Our kids will be enslaved by our laziness.  But they won't be able to fathom those numbers any better than I can.

So I worry that to some extent, we don't really grasp what it is the democrats and moderates are asking us to give up.  Just a mild request to not increase spending at all for a decade... just keep the government as huge as it was today, that would save many trillions.  But it's hard to fathom.

289

Screw this. Repubs, give the dems what they want. You don't have the numbers, plain and simple. The ONLY way we fix this is super majorities, period. We have no choice but to wait till 2012. Put ads everywhere showing the dems choosing spending over cutting. All day, all night. Media blitz. Until dems are removed from the playing field, we got nothing.

--

Couldn't disagree more. We don't have the luxury of waiting. We're on the cusp of collapse about to go over the waterfall. The House does have an option - the option not to vote to raise the debt ceiling and force Obama to prioritize spending. So yes, there IS a choice, Repubs do have an option, even if it's considered "draconian"

290 I really liked Levin. The guy was solid. Right up until he lost his mind.

Painting everyone with the broad brush screed, including Ryan, Sowell, Thompson, etc. was a classless, illogical move. He sounded like a petulant, angry shithead baby who didn't get his way.

Oh yeah Mark. You are the only true conservative, birthed from Thomas Jefferson's ass and nobody else's opinion matters. Yes, no negotiation is fruitful. It must always be a take no prisoners. It is simply not  a realistic proposal that considers the obstacles and outcomes.

I hate this leadership and they need to go- irrespective. But Boehner's plan was the right move at the time.

My opinion? We are going to rue the day we passed it up. I really believe the outcome will not be inconsequential for Republicans.

291 Sorry 283, but they don't have the numbers either. Exactly why is it we should be caving to them and not the other way around? Is it because republicans always cave? It's the one thing dems can count on? And look, here you are advocating for it. What a surprise...

292 Oh yeah Mark. You are the only true conservative, birthed from Thomas Jefferson's ass and nobody else's opinion matters.<<<Marcus

Thomas Jefferson was a pinko.

293 "Painting everyone with the broad brush screed, including Ryan, Sowell, Thompson, etc. was a classless, illogical move. He sounded like a petulant, angry shithead baby who didn't get his way."

Couldn't agree more.  Levin also tends to inflate his background in a way that shows he thinks his audience is stupid. 

Anyone who calls themselves 'The Great One' via their marketing department is a douche.

But in this case, I stand with Levin, who is right and explains it very well.  I understand the desire to hold a grudge... but he's still right this time.

294 I am not clear if I totally understand the full thought pattern behind this.

295

249

 

Marky isn't it time for your lithium?

 

The bill sucks.  But nowe that the Dhimmies kniow they can roll the GOP leadership they will really destroy the country.

 

I saw what hyper inflation did to Argentina in 1991.  It won't be pretty when it arrives here.  And we have Obama and his RINO allies to thank.

 

 

296 GHD Straighteners UK aid China at that time of military material concentration important. According to statistics, from 1939 to June 1940, Burma road transport into the military supplies of every month has reached 10000 tons. Year 1941, through the Burma road transport into the military materials and other types of material amounted to more than 20000 tons, MBT Shoes 13. In November 1941, reach the highest traffic volume 1, 750000 tons, become Burma road since opening the highest shipping records. In 1939 to 1941 years of strategic materials, transportation of China at that time to solve the difficult problems in wartime economy plays the decisive role, Cheap GHDS but also directly to enrich and strengthening the domestic resistance strength, encouraged by the Chinese people's Anti-Japanese War morale, MBT