1 Bring.  It.

If the only way to reduce the size of the Federal Government is pain, bring the pain.

2 liberals just do not understand that sometimes they don't get to win.

It's like last November never happened.

3 What do you mean liberals don't always win? Sucker.

4

I think there's a good chance that even if the Republicans began to compromise, Obama would just change his demands yet again and push for further concessions.

You think?  Veruca Salt was more open to reason and discussion than Obama is. 

 

5

unexpected??

 

6 Meh.

It's all theater.

That being said.... do not compromise Obi Wan Speaker Boehner!

7 Oh liberals will win...watch us hype every poll that shows so and not report any that don't. Oh and fuck you, we are doing it for your own good.

8 I was supposed to be this What do you mean liberals don't always win? Sucker.

9 The difference is the numbers. It doesn't matter any more what the Democrats want. The economy can't support it. That's why their bluff is irrelevant.

10 Default.Downgrade.Pain.The Americam electorate deserves it.Needs it.Of course they will probably react in the wrong way(ie towards radical socialism rather than small government).Yeah,we're doomed.

11 I Liberal Land, everyone gets a participation trophy.

12

While I'd prefer a Balanced Budget Admendment, not rasing the nation's credit card limit debt ceiling should have roughly the same effects, and can be a hammer for the candidates to wield slice with.

And oh my God, can you imagine how petulant and unPresidential Barry will be then?  He'll turn off normally wishy-washy "independents" in droves.

13 Bring it on, baby! To paraphrase Nicholson's Joker - "This [country] needs an enema!"

14 11

Yup.  "I tried, and that's what matters" is the new "I lost".

15

The credit rating is going to be downgraded whether we up the debt ceiling or not..but whatever.

Here is an interesting tidbit from NRO:

House budget resolution authored by Rep. Paul Ryan (R., Wis.), which calls for a real spending reduction of $31 billion in fiscal year 2012. The House Appropriations Committee, on which Graves sits, uses the Ryan budget as its current baseline for allocating funds. So if congress were to pass BoehnerÂ’s plan, and the president were to sign it, House appropriators would effectively be given an additional $24 billion to allocate next year.

yea.............awesome, awesome deal.

16 It may bring short-term problems, but it actually will bring action on some long-term issues.


For example, Social Security has been a third-rail for years because the masses just assumed that it was a "lockbox", in the words of Al Gore, that would be there for them when they needed it.

Bambi's threat to withhold the checks starting on August 3 is a public admission that SS money is NOT just in storage somewhere but, instead, just a big set of IOUs that may not be liquid enough to pay checks.

If people realize that SS is in danger of failing immediately, they'll be more willing to fix it than to kick the problem out another 5-10 years.

17 Charlie Gasparino is saying Teh One is telling banks there will be no default.

18 ...at July 26, 2011 03:50 PM (Xm1aB)

Are you saying you had a sock fail because you forgot to put one on?  Is that a first for the HQ?

19 The white house put out a statement saying it would veto Boehners bill.

20 yeah, maybe, but as your sidebar snarked, the god-king called his own bluff by telling the financial sector, no, we won't default. I do wish Boehner had used the using credit cards to pay for our credit cards bit. Oh, and I was unaware that Obama seems to think that the "rich" currently pay no taxes, so that's why it's ok to tax them a tiny bit, just the tip, honestly, to bring their contribution up to everyone else's. That was some remarkable lying. Also, isn't Mr. Compromise the author of the phrase "I won" and the cornhusker kickback and DemonPass?

21 because the liberals just do not understand that sometimes they don't get to win.

I understand what you are saying here Ace... but it is hard to be perplexed at the Left's intransigence. At what point in the past 40 years has the Right actually drawn a line in the sand that has not been erased and moved?

Compromise will always mean "Agree more with what the Left wants".

Until it doesn't.

22

So I am beginning to fear there actually may be no deal, and, while maybe no default, a scrambling to pay bills and a possible downgrade of our credit rating, because the liberals just do not understand that sometimes they don't get to win.

What?  That kid in Big Daddy played "I win" and always won, so why not me?  You guys are so mean!

23 That's the ironic thing- Boehner (and Republicans in general) compromises to the point where his base is totally pissed off at him and he's still accused of not compromising enough. 

Fine- let's give the people a choice:  Freedom and prosperity or slavery and poverty.  2012 can't come soon enough.

24 If Boehner's current, okay plan isn't good enough for them (and can't make it out of the House) that ought to be the end of this ridiculous game.

After this he should just say "know what?  We're done with this shit.  You guys already have a plan (CCB) in your court that you didn't even have the guts to vote up or down; take that up, or don't, but the House is done."

25 Agreed: Bring it.

Let's see who has stashed away unspent $$$ and where and fire their asses for gaming the budgetary process.

Let's see how having only 60 cents for every dollar usually spent will reset priorities.

26 This administration would never let a crisis go to waste. We should all be very afraid of this administration.

27
Boehner should just keep on passing bills and submitting them to the Senate.

Because that's all Boehner can do. And as long as he and the House GOP is doing everything they can do, the fallout on them won't be too bad. And who knows, maybe they'll hook a D-fish with one of their bills.

28

Why shouldn't they think this? Look at what we, the 'serious people' are doing.

1. we're pinning most of the cuts on the Ghost of Congress Yet to Come.

2. We're not talking about any entitlement reform, either in Congress or here.

3. We're talking about raising the ability to borrow more.

4. Most of the cuts we are talking about are minor, and are not connected to anything that even the American people say are unpopular (unpsent Porkulus funds and Obamacare).

 

These are all signals that we're not ready to actually address this. Indeed, the EU is sending the same signals.

29 Just had a mini-debate with my partner, who is a democrat. He wanted to bet money that Obama would easily win in 2012. He reminded me I lost that bet in 2008. Sadly, I told him I would have to decline, the shocking failure of the 2008 electorate still fresh in my mind. I told him this country is well and truly f*cked up right now thanks to Obama and said he was making Carter look good. My partner hastily replied this country is not messed up, corporate earnings are good and the stock market is and has been increasing in value. He blamed to failure to reach a deal on the debt on the Tea Party types in the House who aren't "realistic." The only concession I got from him was that Obama f*cked up by spending too much time and focus on Obamacare instead of jobs. Otherwise, according to him, we ain't got no candidate that can touch Obama. Wow. Worlds apart.

30 So I am beginning to fear there actually may be no deal, and, while maybe no default, a scrambling to pay bills and a possible downgrade of our credit rating, because the liberals just do not understand that sometimes they don't get to win.

Posted by: Ace at 03:47 PM  a downgrade from the people who had no clue about the crash of '08, what does that mean? oh yeah, they're idiots (or global socialists, but i repeat myself)  Bring the DOOM!™

31 Unless some new...would 'party' or 'actor' be right?  Neither has the right connotations...enters the equation, this is where we're headed.

Welcome to the Society for the Re-Enactment of the History of the Great War, Potomac Chapter.

This is gonna suck.  But we probably need it.

32 24 YES!

33 McCardle seems to be saying 'we're doomed' because the Democrats don't have good arguments with which to beat the GOP over the head. Typical CYA for an Obummer voter who realizes their side is a sorry sack of shit when it comes to reality and governing a free republic.

At this point the only thing worth reading from McCardle would be a detailed and heartfelt apology. Althouse, same for you!

34 Let's see how having only 60 cents for every dollar usually spent will reset priorities.

Time to cut funding for ATF, DOJ, Dept. of Energy, Dept. of Education, NLRB, National Endowment for the Arts, NPR / PBS, HUD, FM/FM, and other sinkholes.

35 yeah, maybe, but as your sidebar snarked, the god-king called his own bluff by telling the financial sector, no, we won't default.

That's what's so weird to me in all this: The Precedent and His Mouthpiece come out day after day warning, in dolorous tones, of "default," and then immediately turn around and say, "There won't be a default."

Well, since the Republicans haven't given in, it only stands to reason that el JEFfe is pre-calling his own bluff.  Which just gives the Republicans less reason to give in.

And, if (as I suspect) the debt ceiling is not raised, people will be shocked (shocked, I tell you) to see how much their daily lives don't change- and then they'll turn on the Democrats in droves.

36 Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before things get better. Spending is just another addiction. Time for the Feds to go cold turkey.

37 Now I have to say, Dave, you should have seen that 2008 election coming. Take up the bet though, because you will win it 2012.

38 @18 Surely I'm not the only one around here that stupid. Am I?

39 I can't gi' ye any mo're pow'r, Cap'n!

40 Time for Plan E, F, or whatever we're on now.

41 Hitler never told Chamberlain he was going to take over Europe, Mr. History Guy.  In fact, he told him the exact opposite: That the Sudetenland was his last territorial demand in Europe.  He even signed a treaty with Britain that chamberlain waved around after he returned from his trip.

42 ... Obama can't continue making the claim that August 2nd is the default trigger date if he's on record reassuring banks that won't happen. I'd like to see the media follow this up, ... but they won't. They can't admit the president they all voted for lies to the country on a routine basis. He CAN continue making that claim because, as you said, the media won't call him on it! If Obama were to say in his next speech, "As I've said before, I'm a Marxist..." the media would say, "yessss, he's always said he was a marxist, yessssss".

43 Otherwise, according to him, we ain't got no candidate that can touch Obama.

Take Perry, 5:1 odds.

44 34 Let's see how having only 60 cents for every dollar usually spent will reset priorities.

This will KILL Big Bird.

45 They should slow down the rate of spending in anticipation of hitting the debt ceiling.

And the house should keep on popping those budget bills at the senate and BHO.  It looks like they are doing something...

46 And, if (as I suspect) the debt ceiling is not raised, people will be shocked (shocked, I tell you) to see how much their daily lives don't change- and then they'll turn on the Democrats in droves.

And if it DOES change people's lives, such as due to Treasury refusing to send out SS checks, there should be an investigation of how the cash-on-hand was used instead of paying out those obligations.

47 Otherwise, according to him, we ain't got no candidate that can touch Obama.

Wow. Worlds apart.

Posted by: Dave

 

Tell that guy to take a tour of the PIIGS and come on back. They have higher personal taxation than we do, they're a socialists delight and they're circling the bowl. Then tell him to fuck off, from me.

48 >>Spending is just another addiction. We told our gov't to go to rehab They said no no no Same result looks likely.

49 38:  Congratz Dave, you are patient zero for the never-before-seen Reverse runningrn Disease.

50
re: Ben's sidebar piece

Very interesting. If I understand it, it's very similar to what that sneaky little shit Obama did in March 2008. Remember that?

During a debate with Hillary, Obama said he'll pull out of NAFTA. Come to find out, before the debate Obama's people contacted people in Canada and told them not to take Obama seriously when he talks about getting out of NAFTA.

How about that.

51

Ace, you hit the nail on the head. The liberals do not actually believe they will lose.

52 These are all signals that we're not ready to actually address this.

Are they, or are they statements of "This is what you asked for, but you're more interested in demagoguery than in dealing with this?"

53 Time for Plan 9 From Outer Space. 

Is it too much to ask that someone offer a plan without this stupid kabuki dance of the spending cuts four and five years from now?

Anything proposing cuts after the end of the FY 2013 budget (assuming the Senate arises from its torpor long enough to pass one) is imaginary.  It's bullshit, and ought to be laughed off the stage.

54 Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at July 26, 2011 04:00 PM (JqpkY)

Precisely.

55 45 They should slow down the rate of spending in anticipation of hitting the debt ceiling.

And the house should keep on popping those budget bills at the senate and BHO.  It looks like they are doing something...

This week, they're working on the Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act of 2012.

56 No need to fear a "no deal". Mandated spending is preordained. There is sufficient cash flow to service debt and pay current mandated expenditures. This is what the markets are saying. If this were a debt crisis the markets would explode down. This isn't a debt crisis, its a spending crisis. We will never win if we spend $.40 borrowed cents on every dollar. A no-deal in effect stops spending of borrowed dollars. BTW, all the false worry on SS checks is a bugaboo. The SSA merely has to cash in Treasuries to pay beneficiaries. This also reduces the debt limit thus creating new room for spending borrowed money. A no-deal sets up the discussion of what non-mandated things are worth paying for. This is the scary part for the Party of the Free Lunch. This is why Sparky's answer is that scary rich guy riding in a Lear Jet isn't fair. Free Lunch politicians are like vampires, they die immediately if they haven't gourged  on other peoples money every year. Free Lunch diners get mad when not fed. Not a good future for the eternally aggrieved and envious. Bottom line - don't fear the no-deal, embrace the possibilities it brings.  

57 I dunno. I heard a bit of Boehner with Rush today and the speaker seemed pretty compromise-y. Sad.

58 **The liberals do not actually believe they will lose.** well, liberalism is a pathology, not a rational point of view. Except for those on the take, to them, it's all part of the game.

59 Actually ace we have become obsessed over the deficit ceiling debate.

2012 is all that matters to Obama and the Dems. All. That. Matters.

Despite, what they say in the kabuke dance, Obama will gladly sign the GOP plan and let the GOP own the economy.

60 Oh, there's a lockbox, all right. You can't get into it, though.

61 What is to understand?  Every single day, a new, bewilderment.  Come on.

62 The Debt Ceiling is our friend.

63 These are all signals that we're not ready to actually address this.

Are they, or are they statements of "This is what you asked for, but you're more interested in demagoguery than in dealing with this?"

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther)

 

The problem with 10 year cuts has been covered. We can't say that when Reid or Obama talk about such cuts it's bad, and then say that when Republicans do it it's suddenly good.

And again, only the Ryan plan comes close to actually reducing the deficit, rather than simply slowing the rate of growth. We've already established that we can't maintain the current level.

64 @37 Really, I should have seen 2008 coming? I mean I know we elected Clinton and all that, but electing a marxist who hung out with Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers and who was a community organizer who had done nothing except allow his name on a couple of books and who was the most liberal senator? I was supposed to see that coming? I'm still depressed remembering weeping over the phone with my veteran Father who couldn't believe what had happened to the country he proudly served. I will never put it past the current crop of voters to spit on this country again. I just can't put money on it.

65 And Rush put words to most of our concern, the baseline has been raised 25% from the good old days of 2007. That is, we need to cut the baseline by 33% or so to get back to normal spending.

66 40 Time for Plan E, F, or whatever we're on now.

No, I think Boehner and the House have already gone above and beyond in attempting to get something decent past a party and a president which are fundamentally unserious.

Barry O'Fucknut, never having grown up, doesn't understand what "we have a deal" means and as others have said, there's no reason to believe he won't renege on a promise to sign any plan Congress might send him.

No more plans.  I don't see where the House can compromise any further without treading into the unacceptable territory of tax hikes and long-term deals.  That would be worse than doing nothing.

67

Remember, Obama really just wants his $2.5 trillion to not have the topic of spending come up on the national radar before election day.

Why can't I just eat my waffle?

68

They are making the error of not listening to the words their opponents say, and not understanding their opponents are serious.

The Left has never understood conservatism.  For them conservatives are defined only by a caricature that includes guns, Confederate flags, illiteracy, insularity, cousin-humping, gay-hate, and racism.  In other words, in the leftard's unverse, conservatives are the perfect foil.  They can always be depended on to make the leftard feel smugly superior by comparison.  Which, of course, is all that is important.

If you buy into this construct, you never have to worry that maybe conservatives have a valid point on some issues.  Knuckledraggers can't possibly have a valid point about anything.

69 I dunno. I heard a bit of Boehner with Rush today and the speaker seemed pretty compromise-y. Sad.

Yeah, and it's that bill that el JEFfe just threatened to veto.  Remember that Rush's show is listened to (or at least, snippets read from) by a whole host of VIPs in DC- including the President.  Boehner wasn't just talking to Rush and you and me, he was talking to the President and a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't be hearing him.

He basically said: "Here.  Here, except for a tax hike, is everything the President wants with just enough 'savings' for us to make eye contact with our constituents (we don't have much shame, but we've got some)."  When people hear that, and then hear Barky say, "Nope, not good enough," he's putting himself firmly on the side of a tax hike as the only solution good enough for him.

70 If cutting spending over 10 years is a good idea, why don't we spread out the cut over 10,000 years! They should be in prison for fraud.

71

Well, since the Republicans haven't given in, it only stands to reason that el JEFfe is pre-calling his own bluff. Which just gives the Republicans less reason to give in.

Don't make me call my own bluff!

72

@37

Really, I should have seen 2008 coming?

I mean I know we elected Clinton and all that, but electing a marxist who hung out with Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers and who was a community organizer who had done nothing except allow his name on a couple of books and who was the most liberal senator?

I was supposed to see that coming?

-----

Yes. Wave election. People completely hating Bush. Young, hip black guy that gave really good speeches. His opponent, an old guy that had been around forever and instilled as much enthusiasm in people as a new Rosie O'Donnell talk show would.

73 Hey Meghan, just wanted to say "Thank you, dunce," for supporting and voting for Obama in 2008.  Please excuse me, but I just have to repeat that line every time you try to tell us how it is going to be.

Morris and McCardle, huh?  Add them to Kudlow waving his pom poms over anything that lets Wall Street run up some more on fumes and the government printing press and, let me tell you, I am not totally confident we have any idea whatsoever what the hell is really going on.

74 I disagree with McArdle on this. I think it is very simple in fact. Yesterday's speech was a campaign speech pure and simple. It was playing to the Democrat base and at the same time attempting to recover from that disaster of a press conference last Friday.

He has turned over all real negotiation to Dingy Harry because Boner has told him he simply will not talk to him anymore. Anything else you here out of Obama is 2012 election rhetoric for the base.

But in any case, it looks like Boner's last plan is going nowhere in the House.  I am good with that. No plan is better than that plan. No plan means immediate and substantial cuts.

75 Here's a thought.  Maybe Daley is undercutting Obama because he knows Obama is crazy.

So,  Obama makes these threats and then Daley calls the money guys and says "Don't worry."  Also,  note Harry Reid has been a shade more compromising than before...another sign that he is ignoring Obama.

Maybe they are just going to do what they want and ignore him.  Actually,   not a bad plan if you think you can keep things cobbled together until you figure out how to get Obama to leave.

I prefer the 25th amendment , but I suppose that takes some time and some helpful psychiatrists.

76

At this point, we might as well just let the JEF default.  Let this prick stand his position up come election time.

77 Posted by: Dave at July 26, 2011 04:05 PM (Xm1aB)

I get your drift.  Almost every day I thank God my parent's didn't live to see who/what elected this imbecile and what happened to our most extraordinary country.

78 Cowards don't bluff good.  Watch their eyes..........

79 @72 Guess I just wasn't old and cynical enough in 2008. Not gonna have that problem in 2012 fer sure.

80

It's a cage match.

The TEA Party House freshmen believe with good reason that the cage door is locked to them by their constituents back home.

The President and the Senate Democrats think they can waltz out of the cage at any time -- the media says they can.  They don't realize that the American people at large are, in fact, paying attention (because the President told them what a huge crisis this is) and are going to block the cage door.

There will be a deal, because once the Senate Democrats realize they're locked in, they'll make a deal, and Obama will sign whatever is put in front of him (he lacks the testicles needed to do otherwise).

81 68, Knuckledraggers can't possibly have a valid point about anything.

"Alinsky advised the radical activist to avoid the temptation to concede that his opponent was not “100 per cent devil,” or that he possessed certain admirable qualities such as being “a good churchgoing man, generous to charity, and a good husband.” Such qualifying remarks, Alinsky said, “dilut[e] the impact of the attack” and amount to sheer “political idiocy.”"

82 Posted by: Blue Hen at July 26, 2011 04:05 PM (6rX0K)

I think you're misunderstanding me.  What Boehner has proposed is unacceptable to Conservatives.  I'm betting he knows that.  It's not aimed at us, though.  It's aimed at everyone else (including liberals who are fleeing Obama, if you look closely enough).  What he's saying here is "I'm being reasonable.  I'm backing up my reasonable words with reasonable actions.  Yet the President is claiming I'm the one who is being intransigent."

83 As Mark Levin has been calling it, August 2nd will be the new Independence Day. Embrace it!!

84 What they fail to realize is that this isn't a game. Sure, the politics of it all is a game, but the economics isn't. The Laws (of Economics) will be imposed upon us however many pretzels of logic politicians twist.

We either comply with The Law or face daily pummeling. The Law will win.

The Tea Party sees this. The GOP might. The Progressives reject it. They hope to hijack The Law and rewrite what cannot be rewritten.

85 He basically said: "Here.  Here, except for a tax hike, is everything the President wants with just enough 'savings' for us to make eye contact with our constituents (we don't have much shame, but we've got some)."  When people hear that, and then hear Barky say, "Nope, not good enough," he's putting himself firmly on the side of a tax hike as the only solution good enough for him.

No, in addition to no tax hikes, Boehner's current plan still doesn't offer an extension that gets this issue past the election (unacceptable for Obama), and requires a vote on the BBA before the election (unacceptable for congressional Dems).  Any concessions on these points would be unacceptable to us.  Stalemate.

86

Congressman Wu: Roarrr.

Congressman Weiner: *squirt*

Curious: Squeeeeeee.

87

Young, hip black guy that gave really good speeches. His opponent, an old guy that had been around forever and instilled as much enthusiasm in people as a new Rosie O'Donnell talk show would.

 

My friends, I wholeheartedly support Rosie's return to television.

88
That's what's so weird to me in all this: The Precedent and His Mouthpiece come out day after day warning, in dolorous tones, of "default," and then immediately turn around and say, "There won't be a default."

Maybe it's this: he not only breaks his promises, he simply doesn't mean or understand a word he says. By contrast, I reserve the prerogative to change my mind about whether I'll have dessert once I've finished dinner -- but I don't think Obama gets that you can't be that way when you're negotiating the budget of the U.S. Government.

89 Yes, it's all about assigning blame for 2012. Obama picked this public fight on purpose, to generate headlines of Boehner walking out on meetings, and Republicans saying no, so Obama can blame them for the crappy economy in 2012. It was all a charade from the beginning.

90 In Cali ( the Wonder State ), tourism is down but the motels are full

because families are living in them

91

Every Republican should make the first and last words out of their mouths be Default is a choice, not a mandate.  If we default, or if we don't pay our seniors or military, it's because Barry chose to have it that way, not because he was forced to.  Say it loud, say it often, and say it in answer to every question.

But they won't, and that's why we can't have nice things.

92 Wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that Obama had already printed the T-shirts and rented the buses to bring Wisconsin to DC.

93 @70, yeah, Rush hopefully stoked some brain cells in Boehner with his point that Obie gets to spend now, you cut later. At some point, the spending is the issue, not the credit limit.

94

90 In Cali ( the Wonder State ), tourism is down but the motels are full

because families are living in them

 

 

Free HBO, bitches!  Hehehehehehehehehe

95 Obama can't continue making the claim that August 2nd is the default trigger date if he's on record reassuring banks that won't happen.

Of course he can.

96

There will be a deal, because once the Senate Democrats realize they're locked in, they'll make a deal, and Obama will sign whatever is put in front of him (he lacks the testicles needed to do otherwise).

Posted by: stuiec

 

In the end, he doesn't have to. If he simply ignores it, it will become law. If the Senate does roll over, that's probably what will happen.

97

I think you're misunderstanding me.  What Boehner has proposed is unacceptable to Conservatives.  I'm betting he knows that.  It's not aimed at us, though.  It's aimed at everyone else (including liberals who are fleeing Obama, if you look closely enough).  What he's saying here is "I'm being reasonable.  I'm backing up my reasonable words with reasonable actions.  Yet the President is claiming I'm the one who is being intransigent."

----------

Well, you certainly think a lot more of Boehner's intellect than I do. Not saying you are wrong, but I find it hard to believe Boehner would have actually thought it out like that.

98 Alinsky's been dead for almost forty years  --  time to bury the bastard

and his acolytes.

( My posts sound like Burma Shave signs, which are making a comeback along the highways and byways of the Wonder State )

99 70 If cutting spending over 10 years is a good idea, why don't we spread out the cut over 10,000 years!

They should be in prison for fraud.

Posted by: USA at July 26, 2011 04:08 PM (6Cjut)

Better yet, use the old "budget surplus" trick like Clinton did.

New 2012 Federal Budget is $18 Trillion, we spend only $3.5T and voila, no more debt.

100 Paul Ryan hadn't weighed-in until today. Here's what he said:

A Step Forward, But A Long Journey Remains

It sounds like he has mixed feelings-- esp. since it doesn't solve the fundamental problem-- but he'll support it because it does a few little things. Don't think he's thrilled about it, though.

101 Posted by: Blue Hen at July 26, 2011 04:14 PM (326rv)

I thought that, if he ignored it, Congress could basically re-pass it, and then it would become law.  Isn't that how a "pocket veto" works?  By not signing a bill before Congress goes into recess?

The reason its important is that then the Democrats would have to be on record as having voted for it twice, not just once.

102 God in heaven, please give the 60 or so TPCs in the House the wisdom and stones to stand their ground, and force either real and immediate cuts, or let the chips fall where they may.

103 Posted by: Rich at July 26, 2011 04:14 PM (wnGI4)

Two weeks ago, I wouldn't have given him that credit, either.  He's given me reason to extend the benefit of the doubt, for the moment.

104
No plan means immediate and substantial cuts.

You really think so?

Vic and everyone else who says let's ride it out, what do you figure Aug 2nd and 3rd will be like? What if something like this happens: Markets drop 3% and Obama goes scorched earth and shuts down parts of the government.

If that happens plenty of Republicans in the House on Aug 4th will team up with the Dems and give Obama his full $2.5T, which nets us nothing but bad press and hard feelings. No spending cuts, no short-term deal.

105 Boehner is all we got right now.  It's him or McConnell.

106 101, You're right about the pocket veto. Obama not signing it =  veto.

107

102 God in heaven, please give the 60 or so TPCs in the House the wisdom and stones to stand their ground, and force either real and immediate cuts, or let the chips fall where they may.

 

Eh, at the heart of the matter we're Republicans.  We'll fold faster than Superman on laundry day.

108 Alinsky's dead? Alinsky's dead?

109

Isn't that how a "pocket veto" works? 

 

Mine works with batteries.  Oh wait, you said veto, not "rocket," right?

110

What Boehner should say:

"The President and I played golf together a couple of weeks back.  I thought at the time we were laying the foundation for working together on solving the pressing issues of spending and debt.  Apparently the President was only playing golf."

111 @106 Yeah, but if Congress sends him the bill more than ten days before they adjourn, President Fencepost Turtle will have to put on his big boy pants an actually veto it for real.

112 Posted by: Soothsayer at July 26, 2011 04:18 PM (sqkOB)

I don't think that's all that much of a possibility, though.  The market is not at all reacting as Democrats (and their pet economics professors) have been predicting.  I think that "no deal on the debt ceiling" will actually be a better indicator to the ratings agencies that we are serious than raising the debt limit would be- and I think the market would reflect that.  Which isn't to say it would be hunky-dory, but I don't think we'd be dealing with the doompacolypse, either.

113 Some points: 1. I thing Megan is link-whoring with this conclusion. 2. Bambi will not let the nation default. I think the reassurances to the banks bears that out. 3. People are confused about where everybody stands now. Boehner needs to come up with a plan, plunk it down on the table, say "This is our plan, you've got until next Tuesday to think about it" and then explain it to the people. Then he should disappear and go on a 3-day bender in Vegas.

114  but I don't think we'd be dealing with the doompacolypse, either.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 26, 2011 04:21 PM (8y9MW)

Monty hardest hit!

115

The CNBC folks at about 8:50 EST were mocking the prospect of default.  They were looking for the Asian meltdown early Monday, like me, and it never happened.  I went to CNBC after Morning Joe's market look in where I was informed that a downgrade won't harm US Treasuries as the downgrade would increase systematic risk, inspiring a flight to safety and US Treasuries.  That seemed like a bunch of gobblygook so I went to CNBC for clarification and they are flat out laughing at the President's predictions of doom.

Not good for The One.

116

Vic and everyone else who says let's ride it out, what do you figure Aug 2nd and 3rd will be like? What if something like this happens: Markets drop 3% and Obama goes scorched earth and shuts down parts of the government.

---------

To many people are looking for some painless way out of this. It isn't happening. Markets are going to react poorly no matter which path we choose.

Besides, Obama willingly going scorched earth on govt. is unlikely imo. At what point has this guy ever shown the inclination to shrink the govt whatsoever? Now, the debt ceiling will force him to shut down almost all of the parts of the govt. that are considered funded by discretionary spending. Painful? To an extent. But it won't last forever and quite frankly the the USA can go a little while w/o the FCC, EPA, DOE, DOE and w/e other alaphabet department you can think of.

117 Saul David Alinsky (January 30, 1909 – June 12, 1972) was an American community organizer and writer. He is generally considered to be the founder of modern community organizing, and has been compared in Playboy magazine to Thomas Paine as being  the worst person in the world

118 That seemed like a bunch of gobblygook so I went to CNBC for clarification and they are flat out laughing at the President's predictions of doom.

See?  I think the Democrats have over-played their hand.  They got trapped (since we keep talking about poker) by someone who looked (from the flop) like they didn't have a hand, but had been concealing a flush- which the River just turned into a straight-flush.

Now, they may be able to bluff their way into winning the pot anyway, but as long as the Republicans don't fold, I think we've out-and-out won this round.

119

McArdles basic point is right - they are all going to fiddle around until they blow the whole damn thing up.

When we lose our credit rating, interest rates will go back up, and this entire damn economy is going to blow up.  Forget the blame game, we're headed into another Depression.   It was probably inevitable sooner or later, but now it is definitely Sooner.

much, much sooner.

120 Yea, I always think of Thomas Paine when I think of Saul Alinsky.

121 I read Boehner's bill last night and I think you could make it into a much better proposal if you amended portions of it. Take the House R budget figures for FY '12 and substitute that for the cuts. Strip the part about the Pell Grants, except for the terminations. Also make the joint committee deadline be September instead of December. I could add some others but might as well make the bill better-- since every House R is complaining about it-- if it isn't going to pass.

122 ...to Thomas Paine as being  the worst person in the world

Wait.  What?

123 but now it is definitely Sooner.

See, Okies?  It's all your fault!!

(I can play the blame game, too.)

124 It was his brother, Dick Paine

125 I'm just no longer worried about a credit down grade, because at this point it seems inevitable. The only way it doesn't happen is if the Dems suddenly decide to do massive cutting. Since that isn't happening, whether we raise the ceiling or not, the down grade is coming.

126 124 It was his brother, Dick Paine
Posted by: cherry π at July 26, 2011 04:27 PM (OhYCU)

You can get meds for that ...

127 stuiec,

I think alot of the Senate Dems, like the dame from MO, are pretty nervous, and that's why Reid is dealing. They realize The One is not on their side.

128 113...your 3rd point is, IMO, what really needs to happen.  In negotiation, you eventually stop trying to split moving goal-posts, but down an offer and stop talking.

And the final offer you put down should be less appealing to the other side than your recent "reasonable" offer.  Make the stalling, game-playing, and posturing hurt and come with a price.

129 120 Yea, I always think of Thomas Paine when I think of Saul Alinsky.           He's not even a Thomas Dolby.

130 127 stuiec,

I think alot of the Senate Dems, like the dame from MO, are pretty nervous, and that's why Reid is dealing. They realize The One is not on their side.

20+ of them are up for re-election in November 2012.

Ones in red or purple states, like McCaskill in Missoui, Tester in Montana, Ozzie and Harriet Nelson in Nebraska and Florida respectively, etc., have to be scared shitless of being kicked out of office.

I'm thinking that a lot of them are about ready to kick him to the side and save their own asses.

131 129 120 Yea, I always think of Thomas Paine when I think of Saul Alinsky.           He's not even a Thomas Dolby.

They blinded me with pseudo-science!

132

Wow what a heaping puile of fertilizer.  "Even if the Republicans compromise..."

 

Seems to me that 800 billion in new taxes, no real spending cuts, no real reforms that would be shared equally sounds like a really, really extremist hard stance ....for true RINOs.

 

Obama wants a blank check.  He wants it and he wants it now.  And the RINOs headed by Boehner are going to give it to him.

 

Who'd have thunk it?

 

Our ratings are doomed.  Because there are no reasonable people heading either party.  But Obama is the president, he is driving the car out of the ditch off the cliff.

 

With a healthy assist from the GOP.

 

People get the government they deserve.  I don't envy future generations of serfs.

133 Vic and everyone else who says let's ride it out, what do you figure Aug 2nd and 3rd will be like? What if something like this happens: Markets drop 3% and Obama goes scorched earth and shuts down parts of the government.

Aug 2nd and 3rd do not mean shit. And the point is to shutdown major parts of government.

He will have to immediately cut $1.7T in spending right now (or at least one month's worth of that).

And I really do not give a Honey Badger damn about who gets the blame or which seat in some freakin BS purple State doesn't get a Republican in it.

We are fking past poltical shit on this because we are facing complete collapse if we do not cut spending for real and for a lot.

And I do not think we have two more years to play fking political games with this shit.

134

They blinded me with pseudo-science!

 

They blinded us with bullshit.

135 $2.5 trillion is one BIG fucking waffle. Can't King Putt eat it in peace?

136 Cantor and Boehner to both call into Hannity.

137 another thing, a lowered credit rating may raise interest rates on young suckers with debt but it will also benefit old fucks living off their IRA's cause they'll get larger returns.

138

Vic and everyone else who says let's ride it out, what do you figure Aug 2nd and 3rd will be like? What if something like this happens: Markets drop 3% and Obama goes scorched earth and shuts down parts of the government.

Aug 2nd and 3rd do not mean shit. And the point is to shutdown major parts of government.

New meme: Do you want to reduce government led by Boehner and the Republicans ( who currently have a ten point edge on the issue) or go through Grecian/Irish agony led by the guy who can't stop talking about corporate jets adn who can't write one piece of crap down for a CBO score?

139 I will be utterly gobsmacked if the Republicans fail to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory here at the last second.  All they have to do is sit on their hands and watch the real cuts happen.  Or watch King Barry ignore the debt ceiling, there is always that to look forward to.

140 Time for Plan 9 From Outer Space. Help us, Bela-Wan Lugosi, you're our only hope!

141

As has been said many times already, there is an artificial debt ceiling that will be imposed by Congress and a real debt ceiling that will be imposed by investors when they choose to no longer buy US debt at the current rates. The only way for Congress to avoid the real debt ceiling is to get the debt under control.

142

Or watch King Barry ignore the debt ceiling, there is always that to look forward to.

 

I'll get to it on January 20, 2013.  Swearsies!

143 Here's the thing -- the economy is about 70% private and 30% government. The feds are currently borrowing about 40% of what they're spending. Their spending is counted in the GDP.

So if they hit a hard stop on borrowing, the GDP is going to decline by about 12%. Typically, a 10% hit counts as a "depression".

144 or go through Grecian/Irish agony led by the guy who can't stop talking about corporate jets adn who can't write one piece of crap down for a CBO score?

Why not? We are not being "led" by him now. He is ruling by executive fiat and making speeches. It doesn't matter what Boner does because Otrama will do what he wants because he knows he can do anything he wants with no consequences.

Besides that it doesn't matter. We do not have until 2013 to fix this shit. It is too damn late and the "rent's too damn high".

China and other holders of US T-Bill are selling them now. Nobody is buying them new except our own government. WHEN the debt is downgraded all those thousands of retirement accounts that are required to ONLY invest in AAA bonds will be forced to sell as well.

We are on the hairy edge of going into hyperinflation NOW.

We ARE Greece

145 new thread

146 I am lost as to what to do at this point. All the options contain bad choices and/or are not perfect and it looks like we might get stuck with McConnell-Reid at the end of the day because nobody can agree on anything.

As for the reset button, if we knew that would work, I'd be fine with it, but I will be honest-- I don't know what Obama would do in such a situation. What if we get a dictatorship? Can we truly restore this country through the reset method or is managed decline a better choice?

147 Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at July 26, 2011 04:38 PM (JxMoP)

Nobody is buying them. That train has already left the station.

148

So I am beginning to fear there actually may be no deal,

"No deal" is not to be feared.  That is your winning scenario. Win, for once.

149 Ace: Regarding your link, the White House was not "reassuring consumers" in that video. It was Jay Carney being a smartass.

150 Of course, the fact is that the real economy is already down more than 10%, it's just been papered over in the GDP figures. Further, much of what the borrowed money has been spent on has actually been worse than useless (Federal functionaries, czars, state bailouts, car companies, green tech, bureaucrats and functionaries [come to think of it, it's probably more than the amount borrowed]). If we took all those parasites and changed even half of them into productive citizens, we could probably boost the economy far more than 10%.

151 OK, let me put this out there...assuming Aug. 3 dawns with no increase.

How, pray tell, does this 'force' the Genius Retard to do anything?

Obama tends towards maximum perversity.  Five gets you ten he will find a way to proceed without cutting a damn thing, by some combination of heavily-demagogued elective default and just plain printing money.

The whole thing is a metaphorical gun at the head of the American way of life.  His finger is on the trigger.  And we know he's not right in the head.

This may be headed for a very, very bad end indeed.

152 We already have massive inflation NOW. It is about to go hyper.

153 153 We already have massive inflation NOW. It is about to go hyper.

Which means a bigger hole out of which we will have to climb.

154 Which means a bigger hole out of which we will have to climb.

Posted by: 80sBaby at July 26, 2011 04:57 PM (o2lIv)

If it goes hyper we will not climb out. That is the impending DOOM.

155 McCardle: We're Doomed She thinks both sides have all but given up on a compromise and are now just positioning themselves for the post-default theater of blame. Can she just let us fap to more pics of her in whore minis and CMF shoes in peace, For God's Sake??

156 This is all one big fucking joke.

Obama has increased federal spending by, what, 25% or so? Where's all the fucking money? We can't cut that?

Bullshit.

The GOP default position should be to roll back everything he piled on top of an already unsustainable level of spending.

But their big plan is to cut $100 billion a year? Horsecock. That's not even a drop in the bucket.

How about this for an idea:

Raise the debt ceiling ONLY ENOUGH TO SERVICE OUR DEBT for the rest of the year.

How you like them apples? If Obama says no, then he owns the default, yes?

Oh, and this?

default.Downgrade.Pain.The Americam electorate deserves it.Needs it

That's pretty much where I'm at. This is a nation of infants. Nothing will shake all the government titty babies out of their dependence until the milk runs dry.

157 155 If it goes hyper we will not climb out. That is the impending DOOM.

Yes, which is why I said "will". Forgot to add "if we are to survive". But back to my earlier point, I am at a loss as to what the right thing to do is other than not caving to Obama. Though that (in turn) brings us back to defining our terms as to what that means. There is no easy choice.

158 I guess I should have shed this Presidick Pull-ups sock before going on that rant.

159 Unless we actually repudiate the debt--not simply default on it, but declare it odious and invalid--we're screwed.

There is precedent.  But it's a huge risk.  I am starting to see whispers of the idea, though.

160 McArdle's piece is embarrassing.

I usually enjoy reading her stuff, but in this case she's writing like this were 2006 (or even 1996), that we hadn't been through TARP and everything else that's gone on since.

She lets the mask slip; she gets a certain degree of regard from the libertarian center-right, but her native milieu is liberal-Democrat bankers and under pressure she reflects that worldview.

She fails to acknowledge that while the debt ceiling is a symptom that may itself require treatment, the root illness is the debt and ongoing massive deficit spending that adds to it.  

161 151 OK, let me put this out there...assuming Aug. 3 dawns with no increase.

How, pray tell, does this 'force' the Genius Retard to do anything?

Obama tends towards maximum perversity.  Five gets you ten he will find a way to proceed without cutting a damn thing, by some combination of heavily-demagogued elective default and just plain printing money.

The whole thing is a metaphorical gun at the head of the American way of life.  His finger is on the trigger.  And we know he's not right in the head.

This may be headed for a very, very bad end indeed.


Which is why I'm worried. This Administration prides itself on destruction and cheating, such as Geithner schemes RE balancing the books. Would circumstances really force this Admin. to change?

162 Oh, did I get confused with Mehgan Kelly? Too many Megyn/Mehgans out there these days...

163 #139  It is looking like the GOP is about to lose anyway.  The outcome being predicted now is that the House votes down the Boner plan, Reid gets his sham $2.7T plan passed by the Dem Senate, O latches onto the Reid plan, and then O/Senate/MSM pressure the House to adopt the Reid plan to avoid catastophe.  So O gets his big debt increase beyond the election with no real strings attached.  The GOP base is demoralized while the Dems laugh at getting away with it again.

164 If the speaker toughs this one out, he could run for preznint--and win. Just re-submit a budget from pre-Obama and say "why the fuck not."

Who else so far has the stones to stand up to The Anointed One?

165 No government or nation has ever survived hyper inflation. Some of the countries have eventually recovered but only after massive help from Western nations like the U.S. and even then, that recovery was not pretty and the government at the time of the collapse was no longer in place.

There will be no U.S. to bail us out. In fact, if it hasn't collapsed already we will drag Europe down with us.

So if we refuse to raise the debt limit, by law he will be required to balance the budget immediately. Of course he will ignore that law by executive fiat. The Republicans will appeal to SCOTUS who will not grant standing because they do not want to get involved and their excuse will be that congress can impeach him. But of course they will not.

He will then continue with QE3 and QE4 et al and we will collapse from that.

166 Just re-submit a budget from pre-Obama and say "why the fuck not."

The South Park strategy. Nice.

Just a memory jogger-there was a South Park movie years back and the MPAA had issues of some of its content. So the makers of the movie changed it-to be more offensive. After a couple of iterations, the MPAA threw its hands in the air and gave them the R rating just to be left alone.

[The South Park creators may have been joking about that, but it's still a good story]

167

@15: "House budget resolution authored by Rep. Paul Ryan (R., Wis.), which calls for a real spending reduction of $31 billion in fiscal year 2012."

Wow...31 billion in cuts out of a $1.7 billion deficit.  That's downright draconian.

168 their excuse will be that congress can impeach him. But of course they will not.

Or they have a change of heart and fast track their review of Obamacare, to 'send a message.' I'd be curious to see how well the Dems in Congress hold together if he pulls some shit like that-they're not much braver than the average GOPer.

169 Nobody likes Dick Paine.

170 167  ...So if we refuse to raise the debt limit, by law he will be required to balance the budget immediately. Of course he will ignore that law by executive fiat. The Republicans will appeal to SCOTUS who will not grant standing because they do not want to get involved and their excuse will be that congress can impeach him. But of course they will not.

He will then continue with QE3 and QE4 et al and we will collapse from that.


From my POV, it seems worthwhile to buy more time until 2012, when we can vote for a conservative president and complete conservative control of Congress. But then we have the problem that we might not have that long...

171 From my POV, it seems worthwhile to buy more time until 2012, when we can vote for a conservative president and complete conservative control of Congress.

Back to where we started. In order to do that we will have to cut and cut hard when we raise the debt ceiling. He will issue QE-III and depending on how much we cut, QE-IV, after which hyper inflation starts.

There are no good choices other than cut now, cut hard and impeach him if he balks,.

That doesn't appear to be in the works so make sure you live at least 35 miles from any large city and have an ample supply of food with gun and ammo to protect it.

172 Pass one page bill out of the house that is 500 billion in cuts over 5 years/ 100 bill a year, and an increase in debt ceiling by the same amount. If you want 1 trillion, 700 billion whatever. No gimmicks, no panels to decide later. 100 billion a year in cuts for 5 years, and obama gets a debt ceiling raise by 500 billion, and then we can beat his ass over this issue in a few months!

173 That doesn't appear to be in the works so make sure you live at least 35 miles from any large city and have an ample supply of food with gun and ammo to protect it.

Don't forget the sand bags.

174 173 Back to where we started. In order to do that we will have to cut and cut hard when we raise the debt ceiling. He will issue QE-III and depending on how much we cut, QE-IV, after which hyper inflation starts...

It's not too late to amend the bill, then see how the conference responds. But then we're back to the problem of the socialists on the other side. I have not and do not see how this successfully gets resolved during this Congress.

175

@33 At this point the only thing worth reading from McCardle would be a detailed and heartfelt apology. Althouse, same for you!

Bullseye.

You left out "abject" and "groveling" as modifiers of apology, but otherwise I'm right with you.

176 CBO: Boehner plan would cut discretionary outlays by $13 billion in 2012

What is the revised total now, I wonder?

177

This JEF fella really wants to take us to the wasteland doesn't he? So be it. I stand ready.

178 CBO: Boehner plan would reduce deficits by $1.1 trillion if compared to earlier, January baseline

CBO: Boehner plan would reduce deficits by $1.1 trillion if compared to earlier, January baseline

179

@113: "Then he should disappear and go on a 3-day bender in Vegas."

How exactly does a perma-drunk go on a bender?

180 Listening to Michael Smerconish's show today, I suddenly remembered something I read about al Qaeda years ago; Osama bin Ladin said (I believe he said it before 9/11) he knew they couldn't win an outright military conflict with the US, so one part of their strategy was to bankrupt the US by making it a long, drawn-out fight. Sun Tzu, an ancient Chinese general, said you had to know your enemy in order to win a war. It seems he knew us pretty well. So if the US defaults, Osama wins after all...

181

@116: "The CNBC folks at about 8:50 EST were mocking the prospect of default.  They were looking for the Asian meltdown early Monday, like me, and it never happened.  I went to CNBC after Morning Joe's market look in where I was informed that a downgrade won't harm US Treasuries as the downgrade would increase systematic risk, inspiring a flight to safety and US Treasuries.  That seemed like a bunch of gobblygook so I went to CNBC for clarification and they are flat out laughing at the President's predictions of doom."

I see what you did there, racist!

182 CBO has released their full numbers for the Boehner plan, complete with tables

183 CBO: Boehner plan would cut discretionary outlays by $13 billion in 2012

OMG!!1!1! A whole $13 billion?!?
Why I retract all my objections from earlier in the day. We are saved my friends, saved@!

184 So if the US defaults, Osama wins after all...

I'm rethinking that position.

185

@132: "People get the government they deserve.  I don't envy future generations of serfs."

Did you not see My Greek columns, bitch? You're not gonna be slaves, you're gonna be helots.  You know, same work, same non-existent pay, but the added bonus of Elites can kill you at will.  However, I shall favor you by allowing you to kiss My right testicle - once, and once only.

186

@157: "The GOP default position should be to roll back everything he piled on top of an already unsustainable level of spending."

Huh? The big plan should be to get back to merely unsustainable spending?  Again...why bother?

187 CBO: $1.1T in deficit reduction (over 10yrs) when compared to January baseline. $1T when using the lower baseline in their report.

10-yr spending cuts: $695 bln discretionary, $20 bln mandatory, and $135 bln in lower interest

^{_{h/t to Phil Klein}}

188 I have always wondered, why not just dust off the budget from 2006 and use that? Yes I know there would have to be SOME changes, and the numbers would not be exact. More people are retired now collecting SS for example, but still it would be a huge step in the right direction in terms of spending less per year. I remember 2006 and the country was not collapsing using that budget!

189 185 OMG!!1!1! A whole $13 billion?!?
Why I retract all my objections from earlier in the day. We are saved my friends, saved@!

He back-dated so that the cuts grow in size each year. *sigh* I'm sure the conference is even more unhappy now that they know the score.

Wonder what the cuts to spending authority are?

190 "This report is likely to create much confusion and debate, because the office compares Boehner's proposal to multiple baselines. CBO issued one baseline in January, revised it in March, and made further revisions when Congress struck a deal to avert a government shutdown, which lowered the 2011 number. Also, the caps exclude spending in Iraq and Afghanistan."

191 Breaking on Fox: Boner has been told his plan must be rewritten because he does not have the votes.

192 I was very happy to search out this web-site.I needed to thanks to your time for this excellent read!! I definitely enjoying each little little bit of it and I have you bookmarked to check out new stuff you weblog post.

193

#187

 

The Spartians sold me their helot francise some years ago.  I plan to exercise it and expand it.  First parking valets, then my old dentist, then on to those guys at the DMV.

 

Oh yes, I have a little list of people who never will be missed.

194 hey dipshit the only people that won't get paid are all the gov't workers and fuck those bastards

195 Did someone point this out already? My bankpolicy demands our investments to be in AAA investments, of which only US treasuries, GSE's and 4 private companies currently qualify. If dickhead defaults, every f'ing bank in America will have to dump the US and find suitable investments.

  And gee, what happens if that happens?

Ain't gonna happen.  Dick is a poseur.