April 13, 2011
— Ace I think he's wrong. Not to go all Obama on him, but he's presenting an honest-to-goodness false choice.
First he quotes former Slate colleague Jacob Weisberg offering a Devil's Endorsement of Ryan's plan -- that's a term I just made up, to describe a pretend-endorsement of an opponent's side which is really a slam and an attempt to win points for your own side.
Ryan’s alternative to Medicare hardly seems as terrible as Paul Krugman makes out. Seniors would enter the health care world the rest of us live in, with co-payments, deductibles and managed care. Eventually, cost control would require some tough decisions about end-of-life care and the rationing of high-tech treatments that have limited efficacy. But starting with a value of $15,000 per year, per senior—the amount government now spends on Medicare—Ryan’s vouchers should provide excellent coverage. His change would amount to a minor amendment to the social contract, not a fundamental revision of it.
Ah. Ryan's Plan = Death Panels. And to the extent I'm saying nice things about it, it's only because Ryan's plan exposes the Death Panel charge for the hypocrisy and lie it always was. Take that, cons!!!
Right, Jacob. Sure. I really believe you are on my side on this.
Anyway, Kaus uses this as a jumping-off point for his Rationers/Treaters theory:
That’s why I’m convinced the major fault line in the health care debate in the coming decades won’t be between those who do and don’t want to diminish the government’s role–by, say, replacing the open-ended benefits Medicare recipients now get with a Ryan-style limited subsidy for purchase of health insurance. Sure that’s one debate, and it’s happening now. But the bigger fault line will be the line that is just emerging, between those who want Americans to keep getting whatever health care will make them better–which is more or less Medicare’s current, costly posture–and those who accept some system, whether public or private, that would deny them some treatments because of their expense: The Treaters vs. the Rationers.
Not so. Costs in the medical sector are exploding for a multiplicity of reasons but the major one is the lack of cost discipline -- when very few people who are the end users of the service, and service selectors, are actually paying anything for it, they have absolutely no reason to question the price and no reason to ask for less expensive options.
It is well-known that doctors will give you a discount if you're paying out of pocket... but what they're really doing is overcharging all the people who aren't bothering to check the price.
Furthermore, when there is almost no cost at all for a thing then people will naturally tend to overuse it.
The problem with health insurance is that it's not insurance. This cannot be stated enough times. Health insurance is not insurance. Insurance, by definition, insures you against a small-ish risk. You pay a small-ish amount of money so that should that risk come to pass, you will be insulated against it monetarily (i.e., you'll get an insurance pay-out to cover the huge expenses).
Current health care insurance is not insurance. It is simply your employer paying a third party to pay for all of your medical needs, whether they are a "risk" (catastrophic illness) or a "known, definite, predictable cost, same as weekly costs for food" (eye exams and eye glasses every year, flu shots every winter, check-ups every year, routine arm-breaks and ankle-twists and back-spasm care...).
It is not "rationing" to restructure MediCare such that it is through a private insurer and furthermore that there are co-pays on most items and a decent-sized deductible. (The deductible serves as a risk marker -- the risk to the insurer is that you'll hit your deductible and they'll be on the line for most everything above that; but below that line, you pay for most of your care.) That simply imposes cost-awareness and price-sensitivity and cost-benefit-thinking to an industry which is exploding with costs because for 90% of its consumers such considerations are wholly absent.
A deductible of $5000 may sound like a lot, and sure, it is. But at least below that $5000 level there will be some cost-discipline imposed by the end-user, rather than doctors and hospitals and drug companies making up their own prices because the end user isn't checking, and his actions bind his third-party payor.
And, frankly, anyone above the poverty line has $5000, or could have $5000 in a loan, to cover his medical expenses should he become catastrophically ill.
You're dying and you can't put off buying a newer used car? I think you can.
At any rate, this isn't "rationing." Rationing is the system the Democrats want, which is where we create an illusion that the government is paying for everything, but in reality, we cut costs on the back end by stepping in stealthily and guiding doctors and even patients away from such care options.
It is better to be upfront about these things. If you're catastrophically ill, you'll get everything paid for, above a certain amount. Below that? You have a 55" freakin' inch HDTV and you can't spend $2000 out of pocket on your own health, your own body, your own life?
Really? Is that where we are?
Now, insurance, as I said, is not insurance. It is your employer deciding to give you $5000 in bonus salary but the form of this salary is paying for your standard, routine medical expenses.
But that's what the poor, who don't have insurance, by and large, consider "insurance," and they don't understand that true insurance would not be disguised salary, as what we term as "insurance" now, but catastrophic health insurance.
And for the poorest, we can provide that.
But most of the poor wouldn't end up using that (as most people are fortunate enough not to be seriously ill), so they wouldn't even realize they were so insured, and so, then, most crucially, they wouldn't realize they had their Politician-Benefactors to thank for it.
That's why every goddamn government "insurance" scheme offered always makes sure it covers a large portion of even trivial expenses -- so that the public knows who to thank.
The prescription drug coverage bill made sure it did this. Bizarrely, it covered a lot of low-level drug costs, then created a "donut" for less-subsidized costs for middle-level drug needs, and then covered everything above a high level.
That makes no sense, does it? Cover the minor costs then create a donut in the middle with much less covered costs? Shouldn't it have been structured so that low level costs were born entirely out of pocket, and then middle level costs were covered half, and then high level costs were covered almost completely?
Sure that would have made sense... but too many people would have wound up not getting any government money for their low-level drug costs and so they wouldn't know who to thank.
ObamaCare is like this. They could have set up some kind of catastrophic health insurance plan which would be relatively cheap-ish but would take care of people when they got really sick. But up to that level, you'd pay your own way.
But then the poor people wouldn't even realize that ObamaCare existed (unless they got seriously ill). So of course we have to structure it so that routine check-ups are covered. The peasants need to know which dukes to thank for their munificence.
Same with care for the elderly. There is no reason that comparatively well-off seniors shouldn't be paying their own medical costs up to a certain level. Changes like that would not only save trillions, but bring some cost discipline to a field in dire need of it.
But no, we always have to make sure that as many people as possible are getting a government check as frequently as possible. So everyone knows who just bought their vote.
Posted by: Ace at
08:52 AM
| Comments (79)
Post contains 1361 words, total size 8 kb.
The conception we have of "health insurance" is nothing of the kind. It's simply disconnecting the consumer of a good or service (medical care) from the payer. When you don't know what things cost, or you are not responsible to pay for those things up front, then it's almost impossible for you to exercise proper fiscal restraint.
Modern "health insurance" is a gigantic moral hazard. It should more properly be called a "health warrantee."
Car insurance protects against catastrophic damage in the case of a tragedy. Car warantees ammertize the cost of regular maintenance.
Posted by: Truman North at April 13, 2011 08:56 AM (G5JPI)
Sometimes, you've just lived enough years.
Posted by: Barack Obama at April 13, 2011 08:56 AM (7BU4a)
Posted by: Truman North at April 13, 2011 08:57 AM (G5JPI)
it is a fight between the looters and the producers. When the government joins the side of the looters it is only a matter of time before the system collapses.
As Margaret Thatcher once said, at some point in time you run out of other people's money.
Posted by: Vic at April 13, 2011 08:59 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Vic at April 13, 2011 12:59 PM (M9Ie6)
Oh, we've got ways around that.
How do you feel about camping in the great outdoors?
Posted by: Josef Stalin at April 13, 2011 09:00 AM (7BU4a)
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 13, 2011 09:00 AM (Z1jiu)
A major step was getting employers to pay for it instead of out of the people's pocket themselves..
Posted by: Dave C at April 13, 2011 09:00 AM (CbAFk)
Agreed..
Posted by: Dave C at April 13, 2011 09:01 AM (CbAFk)
Posted by: nickless at April 13, 2011 09:01 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: dogfish at April 13, 2011 09:05 AM (NuPNl)
Posted by: As Your Mom Says at April 13, 2011 09:06 AM (lT0LC)
Of course, this comes with the caveat that doctors are putting a very small cap on the number of patients they will take on.
I give it about a year or two before this is outlawed by HHSC; because you know that Cabinet Secretaries can unilaterally declare stuff illegal now, without all that pesky Congress, bills, and courts stuff.
Posted by: Damiano at April 13, 2011 09:07 AM (3nrx7)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 09:07 AM (Y0wFY)
One: It looks like all the democrats involved in this "argument" need to read Monty's "Economy 101" posts. It's like they still haven't realized that the "market" for health services is naturally arising from the fact there are more people who want/need health care than there are people available to provide it.
Two: Repeat with me, "You have no Right to what someone else must produce."
That is all.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 13, 2011 09:08 AM (8y9MW)
Which IIRC was started to try and get around FDR's wage controls during WWII.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 13, 2011 09:08 AM (tf9Ne)
Why not "whole life" individual health insurance policies. Cash values accumulate, step premiums, etc.
Attack the gov't camel and get it out of and the hell away from the healthcare tent.
Posted by: Count de Monet at April 13, 2011 09:08 AM (XBM1t)
Yeah if I was a chick, you would have had me at "munificence". But I'm not, so shut the fuck up.
Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 13, 2011 09:09 AM (dT+53)
Posted by: kansas at April 13, 2011 09:09 AM (mka2b)
It has worked so far. Why? Because when it costs the end-user something (even a small amount), suddenly that case of the sniffles can be treated with a hot bowl of chicken soup instead of a $300 doctor's office visit on someone else's dime.
Posted by: Johnny at April 13, 2011 09:10 AM (mhmc7)
I was sold a $50 AoSHQ Premium upgrade! Are you telling me that was bullshit? Ohhh! You must have gotten the radar-invisible undercoating
Posted by: Truman North at April 13, 2011 09:10 AM (G5JPI)
Posted by: Pyrocles at April 13, 2011 09:10 AM (cv5Iw)
I was sold a $50 AoSHQ Premium upgrade! Are you telling me that was bullshit?
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 01:07 PM (Y0wFY)
Chump! Should have sprung for the $75 AoSHQ VIP package. Swag!
[Waves official AoSHQ keychain at EoJ in a taunting fashion]
Posted by: Count de Monet at April 13, 2011 09:11 AM (XBM1t)
5
Here's Obama's plan: take the blue govt pill instead of the red private sector pill
So much truth to this. Go to any urban drugstore and you see the drugged out zombies. They all need, doctors, nurses, shrinks, housing, food, all so they can be drugged out and lose any hunger to attain things for themselves. Urban MDs prescribe like crazy and don't give a shit who pays for it. It is like being pushed through high school. If the patient's are all f-ed up they can't bother you.
Posted by: madamex at April 13, 2011 09:11 AM (ice9D)
And look at the gem statistic on support by seniors - a whopping 30%.
Nice job, progs.
Posted by: laceyunderalls at April 13, 2011 09:11 AM (pLTLS)
I was sold a $50 AoSHQ Premium upgrade! Are you telling me that was bullshit?
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 01:07 PM (Y0wFY)
Don't forget to get the extended warranty to protect your investment!
Posted by: Best Buy at April 13, 2011 09:11 AM (7BU4a)
Sort of. Even back then, it was really "insurance." The concept of full-coverage health insurance (covering Doctors' visits, prescriptions, etc.) is relatively new (I think "corporate fat-cats" started getting them in the 70's or thereabouts). Back in the day, health insurance was what we now call "major med" or "catastrophic" insurance. It didn't pay for you to see your doctor, or get an X-ray, or for your meds, but it did pay if you had a major incident (illness, accident, whatever).
Now, full-coverage medical insurance skews prices for a multitude of reasons.
Posted by: Count de Monet at April 13, 2011 01:08 PM (XBM1t)
So... Health Savings Accounts. With High-Deductible Health Plans. Yeah, those are cool. I've got one.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 13, 2011 09:12 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: supercore at April 13, 2011 09:12 AM (bwV72)
Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 13, 2011 01:08 PM (tf9Ne)
Economy happens.. what can I say?
Posted by: Dave C at April 13, 2011 09:12 AM (CbAFk)
I was sold a $50 AoSHQ Premium upgrade! Are you telling me that was bullshit?
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 01:07 PM (Y0wFY)
Did ya get the decoder ring...cuz if not, you've been bamboozled. Hoodwinked, even.
Posted by: Tami at April 13, 2011 09:13 AM (VuLos)
Posted by: supercore at April 13, 2011 01:12 PM (bwV72)
If you lived in MA you would be fined 2,000 for the priviledge of not buying the insurance you can't afford and you could thank Romney for that.
Posted by: madamex at April 13, 2011 09:14 AM (ice9D)
Great. You said 'his' name. Now Dan will come and grace us with his RomSpam.
I hope that guy is at least getting paid to whore himself out the way he has over the last few months.
Posted by: laceyunderalls at April 13, 2011 09:15 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: Soona at April 13, 2011 09:16 AM (5FMhB)
Posted by: supercore at April 13, 2011 09:16 AM (bwV72)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 13, 2011 09:16 AM (Y0wFY)
Posted by: maddogg at April 13, 2011 09:17 AM (OlN4e)
I'm not sure what the problem is with saying this. You can't seriously argue that cost control doesn't include controlling costs, one facet of which is the cost of the constant heroic efforts to revive dying centenarians. You may argue that this is a cost worth bearing and that's fine. But to say that raising the argument is a thinly veiled attempt at snark sounds paranoid and weird.
Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head at April 13, 2011 09:17 AM (+lsX1)
Posted by: curious at April 13, 2011 09:17 AM (k1rwm)
I was sold a $50 AoSHQ Premium upgrade! Are you telling me that was bullshit?
................
Yeah. About that. Your rate has increased to $100 because your lack of 'PEZ' use in your comments.
Posted by: momma at April 13, 2011 09:18 AM (penCf)
Why hasn't someone sued MA about the fine, about the "must buy" part of the romneycare?
Posted by: curious at April 13, 2011 09:19 AM (k1rwm)
Posted by: Dave at April 13, 2011 09:20 AM (rHBfv)
Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 13, 2011 09:21 AM (A6uiN)
Because government has had its hand in the health buisness for decades in every facet of of it. They have been essentially bankrupting the system through regulation and "cost controls".
Posted by: Vic at April 13, 2011 09:21 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 13, 2011 09:22 AM (dT+53)
Posted by: Bill D. Cat at April 13, 2011 09:22 AM (npr0X)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 13, 2011 01:12 PM (8y9MW)
I really wanted to get in on one of those. Of the plans offered, the premiums were not sufficiently lower that the PPO plans to compensate for the high deductible. Tough on a family with 4 kids, active in sports, and about one ER visit / hospital admission per year.
Posted by: Count de Monet at April 13, 2011 09:22 AM (XBM1t)
Problem solved. We have so many lawyers in power that they wouldn't stand for it.
Posted by: AmishDude at April 13, 2011 09:22 AM (T0NGe)
The whole argument is bogus because there is no way we're going to have everybody gets the very best of treatment for every disease all the time. It just ain't possible no matter how much money the Left thinks the Koch Brothers have buried in Argentina. To use the car analogy, everybody doesn't get a Rolls Royce but most people can get something. So one solution would be to figure a way that all can obtain some kind of care and those that can afford better, go for it. Hey, we had a kind of system like that prior to Obama showing up on the scene, didn't we?
Of course, as Ace said, that sucked for Leftist politicians because there was no way for the rubes to know who to thank. How unfair.
Posted by: Buck O'Fama at April 13, 2011 09:23 AM (W72lX)
Yeah... if you have health issues (kids in sports would almost certainly qualify) the cost-of-entry is pretty high. Luckily for me (2 adults, 2 kids) we don't have any major medical issues, and we haven't been to the doctor, except for routine stuff, in almost a year.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 13, 2011 09:25 AM (8y9MW)
Health insurance policies typically have a lifetime cap on benefits, so the supply of benefits is restricted. This fantasy that there should never be rationing is what deforms the market.
Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head at April 13, 2011 09:26 AM (+lsX1)
Posted by: jwpaine at April 13, 2011 09:27 AM (FUozQ)
Anyone who's been alive long enough knows that the price of healthcare started rising exponentially when the government got into the medical business with the "Great Society" in the mid-60's. If we'd get the government completely out of paying our medical bills we'd be surprised how quickly the free market would make medical care affordable again.
Posted by: Soona at April 13, 2011 09:30 AM (5FMhB)
Health insurance is not insurance. It's like buying a seat license for your favorite sports team. Buying the license enables you to buy the season tickets.
Buying current health insurance enables you to buy the catastropic health insurance for the price of the deductible...but only when you need it.
Posted by: Teleprompter at April 13, 2011 09:30 AM (NbmYl)
Health "insurance" is also becomeing less any less insurance-like (especially under Obamacare) because it is specifically excluding the consideration of one of the most important risk factors - namely prior existing conditions.
If insurers cannot consider prior existing conditions how can they possibly determine a premium commensurate with the coverage payout risk?
Health "insurance" now is just a deferred/levelized health care payment process. Unfortunately, publicly funded health insurance appears to have set the deferred/levelized payment stream well below the actual cost.
As to the whole "rationing" question: rationing only occurs when someone other than the consumer makes the determination as to how much healthcare that person gets. It the consumer is forced to make that choice based on the cost that is called the marketplace. One of the big incentives to go to work every day is to get protection so that you and you family (hopefully) don't have to make the difficult choice of forgoing certain necessary healthcare because of the cost.
Posted by: Brian at April 13, 2011 09:34 AM (kFeuD)
Slightly OT....here's the latest libtard budget mem floating around facebook. Chances are, if you're FB "friends" with a libtard, you 'll see this on his/her status sometime soon:
"
Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at April 13, 2011 09:35 AM (YmPwQ)
Posted by: Evil Masons at April 13, 2011 09:36 AM (71LDo)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at April 13, 2011 01:25 PM (8y9MW)
The premium savings from the High Deductible plans were so slight that just one EZ visit, or two or more non-routine office visits with xrays, labs, whatever, would wipe out any premium "savings."
But I endorse the concept and believe it would reduce demand for services (treat that sprain and sore throat at home) and result in more people price shopping for services. Why don't Dr.'s office post a price board like the barbershop?
Posted by: Josey Wales at April 13, 2011 09:37 AM (XBM1t)
my friend just said the time was set to coincide with Rush being on, he figures he screwed beck and now it's Rush's turn
Oh, ten minute delay of game...
Posted by: curious at April 13, 2011 09:39 AM (k1rwm)
Posted by: Clubber Lang at April 13, 2011 09:40 AM (QcFbt)
The company I work for has a lot of people making around $15 per hour and for a family of 4 your monthly contribution on our shitty plan is $640 and you HAVE to pay it. I will do the math for you: that is $2600 in and $640 out so your take home is automatically reduced to $1960/mo after donating 24% of it to the insurance company.
Whenever government at any level sticks it's nose into an industry the prices go up.
Posted by: Lemmiwinks at April 13, 2011 09:40 AM (pdRb1)
Posted by: Hudson at April 13, 2011 09:59 AM (kgb6K)
Your definition of Insurance is incorrect. Insurance is a pool of people who put together a small amount of money in order to take care of catastrophic losses. If the only possibility were small losses, people would self insure and not need insurance. When there is a large loss, the pool of money accumulated in premiums would cover the repair/replacement of the damaged item. The risk exposure is the unknown loss. tjp cic cpcu
Posted by: TimothyJ at April 13, 2011 10:23 AM (G5+tV)
It's a biological service plan. Not just against possible catastrophic costs, but against everyday maintenance.
Posted by: nickless at April 13, 2011 10:24 AM (Bgtqo)
1. Insurance in the usual sense
2. A service contract, where you pay a fee to the insurance company so that you can pay a token (or nothing) for most of your services
3. A pricing agreement, where if your service contract doesn't cover the procedure, at least you've got a negotiated rate that you can pay, rather than paying full retail price.
The notion that doctors give discounts to cash payers is somewhat erroneous. The negotiated rate with a medical plan is much lower than the nominal retail rate. While a doctor might cut some off the retail rate for those who ask, it's not likely that the discount will actually undercut the rate negotiated by an insurance company.
Posted by: Original Roy at April 13, 2011 10:31 AM (NboGK)
Posted by: Clubber Lang at April 13, 2011 10:34 AM (QcFbt)
Posted by: A.G. at April 13, 2011 11:05 AM (r1N2K)
I think the perfect medium for something national would be a catastrophic risk pool so that no American gets dinged for catastrophic costs. To get this benefit you would have to sign up with a private insurer who would administer it.. and they would get the chance to sell you gap insurance for the small stuff. For someone healthy who doesn't use much medical care, they may just self-insure or pick a ridiculously cheap high deductible plan. Others may want more coverage. But the government wouldn't be deciding what health care you get.
This is the part missing from Ryan's plan. You don't need to give each person $15k. You give them $5k (or even much less) and put the rest into a pool. Insurers now know what their maximum risk will be.
And this scheme works for everyone, not just those over 65.. although at a much cheaper price.
Of course, die hards will say get government completely out of health care/insurance. But, there are so many old people who cannot afford it that we will never extract ourselves from having some sort of safety net. It might as well be one that makes sense and costs the least.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at April 13, 2011 11:08 AM (f9c2L)
Great post, Ace.
"The problem with health insurance is that it's not insurance"
My co-blogger calls this "Phantom Insurance."
Posted by: speedster1 at April 13, 2011 11:29 AM (v40Bj)
Posted by: Poland at April 13, 2011 12:37 PM (qDPnZ)
Posted by: John Musser at April 13, 2011 04:54 PM (Qbs3S)
Posted by: hare at April 13, 2011 08:25 PM (UTbqL)
Posted by: nuthinbutdust at April 14, 2011 04:45 PM (lvcXU)
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here's my plan: Get the govt completely out of the health care sector.
Posted by: Soothsayer, Republican Whip at April 13, 2011 08:55 AM (uFokq)