1 Obviously we must change the definition of "fundamentally conservative."

2 Oh, and SCOAMF

3 And this is why I won't vote for this asshole if he's the nominee.

4 >>>Obviously we must change the definition of "fundamentally conservative." Yes, actually. In order to elect Romney, the party must essentially adopt Romney's politics, which are not conservative.

5 But, but, but...he has a lock on the electoral votes of Utah!  Do you really want to throw away that advantage?  /sarc off.

6 He doesn't want to be president, but he doesn't want any other Republican to be president either. He just wants to be the nominee so he can throw the race like McCain did.

7 Is this hacked-up piece of video supposed to mean something?

8

No Ace.  You are wrong.

You are worried about a non-issue.

I truly cannot see how anyone can be worried about Romneycare.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with anything.

Romney will be the nominee and then if dolts who refuse to acknowledge the facts of life... Romneycare is irrelevant to our future... Romney will be President.

And he will be a decent President, better than Bush at very least.

Get your head out of the sand and look at how the real world works.  Romneycare has nothing to do with you unless you live in MA. End of story.

9 I held my nose for McCain. I won't do it for Romney. At least I think I won't. That's a hard one because Obama is such a SCoaMF.

10

And I was almost resigned to having Mitt be our nominee.

Guess it is time to get behind Perry again. (Hope the back problem is better.)

11 Romney 2012 : Almost CNN- Certified!

12 caught between a mitt and a newt place. I am too clever.

But if he's the nominee, we're stuck with him. Make Obama a one term president and actually put in the time and effort to have a conservative Congress.

13 Jeez, of all the damn things in his past to decide to cling to and defend to the death, he chooses this? Good lord.

Hope you're feeling better Ace.

Perry 2012! With or Without Virginia!

14

He picked a hell of a time to be honest.

15 Is Perry still in this thing? What about Santorum?

16 Mittens' handler need to check his food and water supply. This sounds suspiciously like the Laup Norians have put mind-altering substances therein.

Or, he could be sincere, as in sincere idiot.

17 It's certainly more conservative to expand the risk pool and lower everyone's health insurance costs by making everyone buy insurance, than it is to directly subsidize health insurance with tax dollars in order to bring the costs down or to have a total goverbnmebnt single-payer health care system.. Free markets can't work if there are too many free riders. It is an old conundrum in insurance, which is why states started making everyone who drives buy car insurance. Conservatives keep saying we need more competition and private sector control over health care, but they really have not offered much of a solutuon to the free rider problem. In an aging society, more people need more health care as they get older, and the cost of insurance will keep going up to prohibitive levels as long as younger and healthier people are allowed to stay out of the risk pool. It becomes and chicken and egg situation when young people refuse to buy insurance because it is too expensive, and it gets too expensive precisely because younger people refuse to buy it. That is more or less where we are now. My opinion is that there is more than one way besides traditional fee-for-service insurance to solve the problem. We need markets to develop for other alternatives such as prepaid health care plans, HSAs, cheap clinics for routine care, etc. Posted by: rockmom at December 28, 2011 01:13 PM (aBlZ1) ---- This was down-thread. It was in response to my question, "how is the mandate conservative"?

18

Romney is like McCain and Dole combined into one moderate candidate moderating himself into a moderate loss.

And yet if my other choice is Ron Paul . . . .

19 This is the kind of sh*t that's making Ace sick

20 Holy gawd I want what ever Petunia is smokin'...

21 It's odd that this is the only thing he is unwavering on in his whole career.  It's almost as if he's been told he's done for if he admits it was a mistake.

22 Jen Rubin likes him.  Get in line...

23

Yeah, everytime I resign myself, shit like this....

I'm voting for the nominee, whomever it is, but let's concentrate on the House and Senate, and assume that if Romney is elected, he won't at least veto a repeal.

24 'Looks like your chances of scoring with Jen Rubin are shot. 


>>I take back my previous assertions that at least Romney is smart.

I always get suspicious when the main argument a candidate's supporters have is related to how "smart" their guy is. 

When I learned that Mitt Romney's (B.A., English, BYU) favorite novel was Battlefield Earth, I was forced to conclude that he is not really particularly intelligent.  Either that, or he's one sick bastard. 

25 If the USSC strikes down the individual mandate next year, does that help, or hurt, Romney?

26 hump....Now matters are worse.

27 Mitt Romney 2012
Because A Man's Got to Know His Limitations!

28 I assume the argument would begin and end on the economy. That ocare stuff wouldn't even be brought up.

29 I think Petunia is smoking something.  I'd bet it's Mr. Romney's pole.

Hey petunia.  you know that Obamacare thing that has people pretty incensed?  Yeah...well, it turns out that Romneycare was the *template* they used for it.  You know, they modelled it after Romneycare.  Oh, and don't forget that MA is taking in federal tax dollars to subsidize their disaster of a healthcare fiasco.  Do you pay federal taxes?  If you do, you're paying for Romneycare right now...fun stuff, idiot.

30 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

31 I held my nose for McCain. I won't do it for Romney. At least I think I won't. That's a hard one because Obama is such a SCoaMF.

Posted by: Bosk at December 28, 2011 01:19 PM (n2K+4)

I will if I have to, and you can too. Just keep imagining 2 or 3 or 4 more hardcore leftwing justices on the Supreme Court for life if the SCoaMF gets re-elected. That'll get me out to vote GOP, even if Mutt's name is there.

32 Petunia: Look here Ace- RomneyCare is invisible see....we don't talk about RomneyCare-OK? RomneyCare never existed-it.did.NOT. happen... mother #$%er!

33 The wonderful conservative method of dealing with the uninsured throughout the Red States shows conclusively that Romnet is a Lefty. Oh, what's that? There IS NO wonderful conservative way to give people something of great value and forcing others to pay/perform the service? We're in the real world here and I don't see anyone willing to die on the hill of "bar the doors to the hospital for the uninsured". If we're going to talk about principles, let's talk about principles, not alternative payment methods.

34

Get in the fucking kennel, Ace. 

35 Why does everyone keep looking past the only candidate who has staked her whole candidacy on repealing Obamacare?

36 I think Petunia is smoking something. I'd bet it's Mr. Romney's pole. OMG! Jen Rubin is in THE HOUSE!!!!!

37

Why does everyone keep looking past the only candidate who has staked her whole candidacy on repealing Obamacare?

Because Santorum doesn't stand a chance.

38 As Glenn Reynolds at Instapundit puts it, our political class has never been of lower caliber.

Not a one of any of these candidates is any damned good...

39
25 If the USSC strikes down the individual mandate next year,
does that help, or hurt, Romney?

F. Romney, the rest of us win.

40
This is inexplicable. This whole strategy has me befuddled. Either Romney is the worst tone-deaf out-of-touch ignoramus of a candidate or he's so confident that he's gonna win the whole thing that he's just cruising along on autopilot without a care in the world.

41 Romney 2012 : Kennel UP! **** First we'll let you come along for the ride, but you have to take the cheap seat and then you will shit yourself but you are due for - The Hosing. (Canadian style.)

42 Rockmom: I don't see a very good explanation as to how the mandate is conservative. You made an argument as to why it's better than some other options, but what's so conservative about it? You mentioned how people must buy car insurance if they drive. Ok, are we forcing everyone to buy and use a car as a requirement of citizenship? No. This example fails for that reason.

43

favorite novel was Battlefield Earth

 

So he's a Mormon and a Scientologist? Why not throw in a little Bhuddism for good measure?

44

Because the mandate was constitutional in Massachusetts, and the alternative to it was a state single-payer system.  I can't watch the video and I don't know if that is what Romney is actually saying in it, but it is true and entirely defensible. 

And the mandate is NOT the worst part of Obamacare, it is ALL terrible and wasteful and unaffordable.  Romney can talk about all of those things, about how his reform was passed with a large majority in the legislature while Obamacare was shoved down the people's throats by a couple of votes in a reconciliation procedure that had never been used for such a substantive piece of legislation, that it was fundamentally dishonest about the true cost, that it DOES set up death panels, that it will bankrupt the states by forcing massively higher levels of Medicaid spending on them, that it is so bad that even Obama had to give out hundreds of waivers of it to businesses and unions, and most of all that it did NOTHING to fubndamentlaly vhange our health care system and make ot less expensive or more efficient.

There are a million and one arguments to be made against Obamacare even if you think an insurance mandate is a good idea.  It's a horrible piece of legislation that was enacted by a horrible process and does not even solve the problem it was supposed to solve.

45 ROMNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY

46

I do not support Romney, and if he's nominated, I will have a McCain-sized headache through November.

I do have one observation about this horserace. We are not electing a lawmaker. We're electing an executive. The president cannot initiate legislation. He cannot vote on it. He cannot staff the Congressional committees that do. He has only one vote, and that's the veto. He would have to vociferously oppose something to use it, and not many presidents exercise that power.

He does appoint judges, including SCOTUS justices. He represents the U.S. in foreign affairs, and appoints our ambassadors. He commands the armed forces. He appoints cabinet heads. He has other responsibilities I'm not thinking of at the moment.

When we evaluate our candidates for POTUS, are we taking all this into account?

The president is just one man. Of significantly more importance is the makeup of Congress, and 85 percent of them are chosen in the primary, too.

I only put this up for discussion. As a Texan, I will probably not get a vote in the presidential primary, as it will likely be over by March. I don't "not care" who the presidential nominee is, but I also think many of us are focusing on the right things.

I do think Ace is spot-on in nailing Ron Paul to the wall over his foreign-policy views. No Congress could undo the damage that man could do to us overseas.

47 Mitt Romney 2012
An Echo, Not An Echo

48 Doubling down on stupid. I'm still 100% for Perry, but if Mitt has a "come to jesus" moment and walks back Romneycare, I'll give him a second chance. It's still 2011, he has a few fading weeks or days to turn this around. What happened to the republican party? This is one of those "greatness thrust upon you" times in history and no one wants to...er...get thrusted upon (yikes).

49 Ok, are we forcing everyone to buy and use a car as a requirement of citizenship?

Go on.

50 Posted by: petunia at December 28, 2011 01:19 PM (hgrmi)

Half of Obama/Romneycare is funded by taxes from everyone but Mass.  I guess if you pay taxes if affects you.

51 Reposted from the previous thread. 
2 items of interest

Read Ed Morrissey's summary of what actually happened in VA.  There is lots of good background there for those who are interested:

From the chair of the VA GOP: Second, the Republican Party of Virginia merely certifies petition signatures. We donÂ’t set ballot access laws. Those laws are set by the General Assembly, not by the RPV.

The other interesting item is that John Hinderaker (Powerline blog) has come out enthusiastically for Romney.  Again, read the whole thing at Powerline. 

If your only response to either of these items is to yell RINO!, then this whole discussion is pointless.

52 Look on the bright side- The Hosing ( Canadian style) might come with health care...

53 I point once again to Mitt Romney appearing to be actively hostile to conservative voters.

That or delusional.

Either one should be a major red flag.

54 Perry/Santorum 2012?

55 33 The wonderful conservative method of dealing with the uninsured throughout the Red States shows conclusively that Romnet is a Lefty. Oh, what's that? There IS NO wonderful conservative way to give people something of great value and forcing others to pay/perform the service?

Gee, if only our self-described conservative health care expert had spent the past few years supporting efforts to develop one instead of picking wallpaper for his latest mansion and avoiding championing any conservative causes during his period of unemployment.  It's not like he was too busy doing anything else to work on finding a solution to the thing he campaigned on last time. 

If there is no conservative solution to health care costs and access, then maybe the conservative solution is to get the government out of it.  You'd think Mitt would be smart enough to figure that out. 

56 Remember that scent with Sigourney Weaver in Alien Resurrection where the monster got sucked through the 1 inch hole into space, as monster pudding? Well, that ain't possible with your standard density 600 pound monster. Not at SAP 14.7 psig. it aint. Unless........unless you have Mitt Romney standing on the other side of that 1 inch hole. Then, yeah, it could happen.....

57 Not a one of any of these candidates is any damned good...

And yet - every single one of them is better than the JEF

58

Posted by: davidinvirginia at December 28, 2011 01:22 PM (hcJkV)

Yeah, big picture I know but damn if the Repub establishment doesn't friggen piss me off. It's like they are deaf, dumb, blind, stupid, incompetent, braindead, oblivious, ignorant, self-serving. Anyone want to add to the list?

59 We're in the real world here and I don't see anyone willing to die on the hill of "bar the doors to the hospital for the uninsured". If we're going to talk about principles, let's talk about principles, not alternative payment methods. Posted by: Lincolntf

No part of MASScare or Obamacare changed treatment for the uninsured. They were treated and we got the bill. Neither plan changed, that and neither plan dealt effectively with the actual problem, 3rd party insurance paying for accelerating health care costs.

The 'uninsured' part is and was a bogus talking point.
Next strawturd?

60 the alternative to it was a state single-payer system. What? How so?

61
What gets me is that this stuff wouldn't be so hard to take if Romney was exceptionally good on something specific such as the economy or job creation.

But there's nothing. Romney hasn't given anyone a concrete plan or an idea on anything to latch onto.

62 Why does everyone keep looking past the only candidate who has staked her whole candidacy on repealing Obamacare?

Uh, cause CrazyEyes can't win anything, anyway?

What're you smokin?

63 And the mandate is NOT the worst part of Obamacare, it is ALL terrible and wasteful and unaffordable.

Indeed.  The mandate is what prevents us from going straight to a NHS-style single-payer system when the insurance companies get out of the the healthcare business.  OCare cannot work without it.

64

Because we've got a long way to go and I'm not going to smell wet fur the whole way there.

65

Romney's stance on the healthcare mandate makes him about as electable or un-electable in the general election as Rick Perry, who recently announced that he is against abortions for victims of rape and incest impregnated by their attackers--which means, of course, that rape and incest victims who choose to terminate the pregnancy brought about by sexual assault would be subject to felony charges should Roe v. Wade be repealed and abortion is once again illegal in most if not all states, depending on the ruling.

In fairness to both men, I don't believe either is taking their respective stances on these issues as a matter of political expediency. Romney genuinely believes he was actually taking the conservative position when he pushed the mandate--the mandate had the imprimateur of the Heritage Foundation, after all. Perry had his change of heart about the rape and incest exception as the result of a profound personal experience--a real one, not like the one Bachmann had with the Gardrisil-retarded daughter's mom, which evidently took place in Bachmann's head.

Romney has vowed to repeal ObamaCare because he views it as an overreach of federal power, and in spite of his belief in the constitutionality of the individual mandate. Perry has vowed to promote a pro-life agenda in all instances, although moderate-leaning independents would probably reject his views on the matter and vote accordingly.

So tell me, by your logic, is Perry determined not to be the GOP nominee in 2012?

66 And yet - every single one of them is better than the JEF Except for Ron Paul

67 I keep a picture of Ace's syphilitic camel for just such occasions (and for no other, thank you very much). It's a reminder that Mitt is better than Bambi. Really. At least I hope so. If it's Mitt v Bambi, I vote Mitt and hope that the Pub/Tea Party coalition in the House and Senate in 2013 can repeal BambiCare and present it to President Romney for signature. He'll sign. He'll have to.

68 >>>Because the mandate was constitutional in Massachusetts, and the alternative to it was a state single-payer system. I can't watch the video and I don't know if that is what Romney is actually saying in it, but it is true and entirely defensible. Rockmom, he does not say that. YOU say that. I have in fact urged him myself to say something like this. The argument that the Individual Mandate is BAD, but yet preferable to the single-payer alternative, is a reasonable defense. He's not making that defense. He's saying the mandate is "fundamentally conservative," not in comparison to anything else, just in and of itself.

69 I will vote for whomever the Republican nominee is (unless its RP in which case I will just abstain) and then embrace the monumental suck of living with Obama for four more years.

70 So he thinks he can win the nomination of the Stupid Party by doubling down on Stupid.

That's brilliant.

In a Stupid kind of way...

71
Mitt, who are you?

Are you The Man Who Will Revive the Economy?

Are you The Man Who Rid Us of Obama?

Who are you? What's your hook? Your angle?

Your thing?

What is your goddamm mandate, Mitt? What are you running on? What are you running for?

72 RICK PERRY !

73 But Romney will not bend in his singleminded mission to make himself unelectable.

That's because Romney believes that the fix is in.  Mitt thinks he can go as far to the Left as he wants because he has the money and the influence to overwhelm the squirts to his Right.

The full explanation is given in Kevin Williamson's splendid essay posted at National Review Online with the title  "Repo Men" (the LINK is posted at Ace's sidebar comment section).

74

Yeah, big picture I know but damn if the Repub establishment doesn't friggen piss me off. It's like they are deaf, dumb, blind, stupid, incompetent, braindead, oblivious, ignorant, self-serving. Anyone want to add to the list?

Posted by: Bosk at December 28, 2011 01:28 PM (n2K+4)

I thought you had to be most of those things to be a member of the GOP establishment? :-)

75 Remember back in 2008 when all the conservatives stayed home because McCain was such a shitty nominee? I remember it.

76  Free markets can't work if there are too many free riders. It is an old conundrum in insurance, which is why states started making everyone who drives buy car insurance.

Heh! Pinche Gringo thinks we have insurance!

77

@40

I'm spitballing here, but I think that he thinks it's in the bag, with his 25-30% support and split opposition that can't shoot straight. So he is playing a sort of odd brinksmanship with the base -- how far to the middle can I go? -- during the primary so that he doesn't have to do the traditional veer to the wing during primary, veer to the middle during general dance, setting himself up as a true moderate for the general election.

78 >>>Romney's stance on the healthcare mandate makes him about as electable or un-electable in the general election as Rick Perry, who recently announced that he is against abortions for victims of rape and incest impregnated by their attackers--which means, of course, that rape and incest victims who choose to terminate the pregnancy brought about by sexual assault would be subject to felony charges should Roe v. Wade be repealed and abortion is once again illegal in most if not all states, depending on the ruling. Yeah I don't get it. I guess I'm moving towards Newt. Because Perry is sucking wind, he's decided to attempt to spasmodically make promises to a host of Iowa constituencies. He has reduced his electability, which wasn't all that high to begin with.

79 69 I will vote for whomever the Republican nominee is (unless its RP in which case I will just abstain) and then embrace the monumental suck of living with Obama for four more years.

Brilliant!

80 But of course praising the efforts of Hillarycare and then either lying about not knowing what Hillarycare was all about or too dumb to know is just peachy. Once again, the 10th amendment argument is more than valid but the haters want to dismiss it. They also want to ignore the vast differences between an 80 page bill and a 1000 page bill.

81 Jeff B doesn't care.

82

Don't you see, he thinks it's conservative for everyone to be forced to buy something they don't want to because, like, if everyone wants a piece of something with a limited supply, then prices will obviously go down for everyone........Duh, he's from the same state that Harvard is in so he knows his stuff.

He knows how to destroy businesses, that he does well, and he knows how to destroy healthcare systems, he has done that well, he also knows how to destroy liberty and destroy the wisdom of supply and demand curves in relation to price.

 

 

83 And defending the mandate as "conservative," every inch of the way, and actually showing uncharacteristic passion while doing so, is would-be Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney.

I disagree with Romney on this.  It isn't a conservative position, except from the point of view that it does require those who can afford it to pay for their health care.  Unfortunately, it also makes them pay for the health care of others.  That isn't good enough.  So, if there were only this one consideration in this race, and if I thought that Romney was going to endorse OCare for the nation, I wouldn't back him.  But it isn't the only consideration.  He's already said he will repeal it with the help of Congress, and the SC could well make the point moot before that.  Balanced against another 4 years of Obama, I'll take the bet. 

84 per Ed Morrissey is jumping through his own Ron Paul and ignoring loads of Supreme Court and Circuit Court Opinion as in the Seventh, Sixth and Tenth-just for starters that states- It is unconstitutional to require that the circulators of petitions be in state residents. Tell Ed and Allah Pundit to read - Nader v. Blackwell and work backwards from there. That opinion is based on the Supreme Court decision in Buckley. Also if Ed and Allah Pundit want to argue with you that the First Amendment does not have supremacy-mention the concept of over breadth doctrine and then ask them why- military dependents hav to put up with the likes of the Westboro Baptist at the funerals of this that served their country. That's about this little thing called- Free Speech and the First Amendment which supposedly our guys die to protect...

85 Ron Paul may be an extraterrestrial 9-11 truther but he is not an open communist.

86

#42 I was not meaning to compare the health insurance mandate to the auto insurance mandate, I totally understand the difference to the individual.  I was simply demonstrating the reason for both, which is to solve the free rider problem.  Before there were state mandates on car insurance, premiums were skyrocketing all over the country because so many people were uninsured and there was nobody to collect the damages from in case of an accident. 

What I hate most about the Obamacare mandate is that it was a blatant political payoff to the big health insurers to buy their support for the bill's coverage mandates and other stuff.  The White House brokered that deal and there were never any actual hearings held in Congress on the mandate at all.   

I actually don't think the mandate is unconstitutional.  I don't like it as a matter of policy, and I think we would be a lot better off fighting it as a matter of policy than hoping the courts will throw it out, because I don't think they will. 

87 When we evaluate our candidates for POTUS, are we taking all this into account?

The president has more than just the Veto power.  He has considerable political clout which he can bring to bear on any side of any given issue.  We will not have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate (let alone veto proof).  We will not have a veto proof majority in the House.  Therefore his position on ObamaCare- especially the mandate, which is the most blatantly unconstitutional piece of it- is vitally important, because he will have to fight, and fight hard, to force the repeal through Congress.

If he believes that the mandate is a fundamentally conservative idea, then I don't see how a) he could bring that full weight to bear on the issue or b) he would particularly care to anyway.

As for SCOTUS, I don't think we win big there, either.  While we probably wouldn't get any more Kagans or Sotomayors, we wouldn't get any Thomases, or Alitos either.  If we were lucky we'd end up with several more Kennedys.  Yay.

88 So Y-not you don't care that there's Socialized medicine happening in all 50 States, just that MA tried to impose some sort of order on it? I hate Masscare .and Obamacare but they are not the same thing, not nearly.

89 Lee, ObamaCare is actually unpopular and the mandate is the most unpopular element of it. The moderates actually are AGAINST Romney's agitation in favor of it. The moderates are in line with the conservative base on this issue. It's Romney who is the odd man out. He's taking the 40% side of an issue, while the conservative side is the 60% side. And the 40% side he's representing are, of course, in the Democratic Party.

90 Anyone have an unedited version of this video?  It looks hacked up RIGHT at the key time.

91 Posted by: 12 million illegals at December 28, 2011 01:31 PM (boLoz)

And that law is broken ALL THE TIME.

92
Mitt Romney will fail because he is the Undefined Candidate.

You cannot win any national election (or party nomination) by being non-committal and generic.

I am now convinced that Romney's campaign is just plain lousy.

93

As a Texan Kentuckian, I will probably not get a vote in the presidential primary, as it will likely be over by March.

Yeah, different state, same situation.

94 That is why I am voting for Rick Perry in the primary.

95

Barack Hussein Obama is stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

I denounce myself.

 

96

OK. So Obama pushed national RomneyCare through the Senate via reconciliation and now we are going to elect Mittens to run national Romneycare. OK

And for bonus points someone explain to me how premium support (Ryan) isn't RomneyCare.

The fix is in. Both sides against us.

97 military dependents hav to put up with the likes of the Westboro Baptist at the funerals of ^those^ that served their country.

98

What will Romney's angle be?

Vote for me, cause I couldn't possibly suck as bad as Obama, could I?

99 I'll be voting for the most conservative candidate on the ballot- and it won't be Obama or Romney.

100
Jon Huntsman might just squeak away with this thing.

What we're seeing is the making of a big back-door upset.

101 That is why I am voting for Rick Perry in the primary.

Posted by: Jimbo at December 28, 2011 01:35 PM (O3R/2)

Well, I had planned to...but the Virginia GOP had other ideas.

102 You are being herded before ballot one has even been cast. RESIST THE HERDING> Honest to gawd some 45% of Iowans are admitting they are undecided.

103 >>>And for bonus points someone explain to me how premium support (Ryan) isn't RomneyCare. Huh? Because it's money from a pool you paid into your entire life, and now you get it back, in order to buy private insurance.

104 Taking personal responsibility: conservative. Government mandate: NOT taking personal responsibility, not conservative. The government forcing you to do something does not equal personal responsibility. How does Mitt not know this?

105 Even Ron Paul bowed to the political winds on that one and cast an ass-saving, career-saving vote in favor it.

It wasn't to save the Jews, was it?  'Cause Professor Science (The Only Man Who CAn Save America^tm) said that shit was right out.

106 So tell me, by your logic, is Perry determined not to be the GOP nominee in 2012?

One of those positions lines up (more or less) with the GOP base.  The other runs completely counter to the position of the GOP base.  I'll let you guess which is which.

107 I am not witch doctor.

108

Romney is the best person to tackle ObamaCare. To suggest otherwise proves one is so biased they are beyond reasoning.

States have all kinds of mandates already. That's no the issue. That's the issue with a part of the conservative base.

The issue in the general will be budget busting and keeping private care. Romney is the ONLY person who can repeal ObamaCare without be branded and demeaned fror being thoughtless, mean and cold-hearted.

Repealing ObamaCare will result in stripping thousannds of Americans of health insurance. It will be sob story and sob story. The MSM and Obama will turn the GOP leaders in this effort into ruthless, heartless bastards.

1. Romney can say, hey I know more about health care than anyone.

2. Romney can say, hey I'm deeply concerned about the number if uninsureds in this country. My record shows that I have a great amount of sympathy for young families who cant afford insurance.

3. Romney can say, hey I can speak from experience, I know what works and what doesnt and ObamaCare will not work.

The other are inarticulate. Texas leads the country in uninsureds. They wil have no problem making Newt look old, out of touch, and nasty like they did in the 90s.

Romney's past innoculates him from such criticism.

 

109

Get better Ace.  I'm sick today too.  Listened to the podcast with Ben Howe.  Good discussion.  Perry!

110 This sucks for Newt, too. How can he disagree with what Romney is saying? He fucking agrees with him!

111 Free markets can't work if there are too many free riders. It is an old conundrum in insurance, which is why states started making everyone who drives buy car insurance.

Heh! Pinche Gringo thinks we have insurance!

Posted by: 12 million illegals at December 28, 2011 01:31 PM (boLoz)

Hey, I lived in San Diego for two years, so I hear you.  Go ask any Californian why their insurance premiums are so ridiculously high.  If they are honest, they will tell you.   I have been in two accidents with illegals, one in Virginia and one in Kentucky (that one didn't even have a driver's license or proper registration for the car he was driving.)  That makes my point.  Too many free riders raise the costs for all the honest people and make more of them stop participating, which causes the costs to go up still more, and on and on. 

112 It is the meddling that both the state and federal govts have done* that drove the price of medicine through the roof. It is not a conservitive position to ask for more meddling. If I could pick my own insurance contract and pay for it with my own money (not money filterd through my employer) I'd be much more likely to buy it and afford it without a mandate. The necessity for a  mandate is is caused by govt interference.

*Mandating if I but insurance it must cover crap I have no need to cover i.e. baldness, EID, falling off a mountain...

113 ObamaCare is actually unpopular and the mandate is the most unpopular element of it. The moderates actually are AGAINST Romney's agitation in favor of it.

The moderates are in line with the conservative base on this issue. It's Romney who is the odd man out.

He's taking the 40% side of an issue, while the conservative side is the 60% side. And the 40% side he's representing are, of course, in the Democratic Party.

Ace-Your argument doesn't work because Romney isn't supporting OCare.  He has been very clear about that.  Even if there are some good aspects to it (I'm not saying I agree), he has said he will sign a repeal.  He knows it's unpopular. 

114 Posted by: The M.I. Double Tizzle
...........
Perhaps.. but I'm hoping the Supreme Court does the dirty work before then!

115

If Romney were smart, he would defend the healthcare mandate with the same mealy-mouthed defense that Perry used for Texas illegals' tuition payments--hey, it was politically popular in my state, and the federal government had done nothing to solve the problem.

Instead, we get this crap.

What a sorry bunch of candidates.

116

Posted by: The M.I. Double Tizzle at December 28, 2011 01:39 PM (ozpOn)

Rite there, folks is what I call a master wishcaster.

117 What we're seeing is the making of a big back-door upset.

SAAA-LUTE!

118

And defending the mandate as "conservative," every inch of the way, and actually showing uncharacteristic passion while doing so, is would-be Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney.

 

 

This, bitches.  Anyone who says "of course" Mitt Romney will sign a repeal bill is incorrect.  There is no evidence that Mitt will abandon his one policy binky, which is love for the individual mandate.  I think he would, but I can't say with any certainty he wouldn't fight to keep it in.

119 davidinvirginia I've been spamming the hell out of the threads- but go take a look at the Sixth Circuit Court's opinion invader v Blackwell. That refers to a Seventh Circuit Court opinion and the Supreme Court opinion in Buckley which states that - An in state residency requirement for those that circulate petitions is- unconstitutional-and it is in violation of Perry's Free Speech, First Amendment rights. Id Clay the concurring judge in that opinion is right -additionally - Perry is entitled to rapid relief.

120

Ace: He's taking the 40% side of an issue, while the conservative side is the 60% side. And the 40% side he's representing are, of course, in the Democratic Party.

Yeah, I think you're right on this. It's just that I'm trying to figure it out, and it just confuses the hell out of me. I think he is pandering to what he perceives as the general electorate, using us as foils.

He is either being way too clever, or is simply being dumb. (As I typed that I realize probably both.)

121

Conservative solution to healthcare:

 

1) Reduce the ability for people to sue health care providers

2) Reduce the regulation necessary to provide health care services

3) Reduce that regulation even more so that there isn't a barrier to entry to become a health care service provider

4) government paid health insurace, whether you are a union member, government freebie, or govt. employee, your in network is government funded healthcare providers.  Otherwise you must pay a high copay and deductible to go to a non-government funded health service provider

5) make it illegal for private businesses to pay for employee's personal health insurance or even facilitate the acquiring of the health insurance.  If an employee wants insurance, they will use their own after paycheck money to pay health insurance bills through health insurance provider.

REDUCE DEMAND, INCREASE SUPPLY, that is the conservative way, to get supply and demand in line.

122 I'd have been happy if the Gubmint had just covered the ~10% who were claimed not to have insurance/couldnt' be insured.  But they (Gubmint) don't work that way; they like nice, sweeping legislation that creates...more Gubmint.  What really frosts my nuts is some punk ass who claims 'I can't afford it', while driving his Bimmer, holding his iPhone and sipping his 5$ latte.  I'm in business for myself -- and just like you wouldn't want me in your home working (without being insured), I also can't drive to your home without insurance, nor work without having my body insured.  For me it's not only the way it must be, it is the way it HAS to be.

123 112 It is the meddling that both the state and federal govts have done* that drove the price of medicine through the roof. It is not a conservative position to ask for more meddling. If I could pick my own insurance contract and pay for it with my own money (not money filterd through my employer) I'd be much more likely to buy it and afford it without a mandate. The necessity for a  mandate is is caused by govt interference.

*Mandating if I but insurance it must cover crap I have no need to cover i.e. baldness, EID, falling off a mountain...
Posted by: Buzzsaw at December 28, 2011 01:40 PM (tf9Ne)

This, and this again.

124 >>>States have all kinds of mandates already. That's no the issue. That's the issue with a part of the conservative base. Yes, part of the conservative base. the 80% part.

125 Weft cut loop' do you think you just made a point about something? You didn't. But you got to use "argumentatively inclined blog commenter cliche #4, the strawman" and even got to gussy it up with "turd". Fuck you.

126

BTW, Perry just announced that he didn't want to win the generals in 2012, with his extremist abortion flip-flop.

So the only two Republican candidates with any real leadership experience have respectively announced that they don't want to be the Republican candidate for President and that they don't want to be President.

God hates us.

127 Romney sucks, Perry sucks, they all suck, we are just arguing over who sucks least. If you wanna know why the MFM went out of their way to destroy Palin even after she lost in 08 it's so we would be stuck with these assholes.

128 Uh, cause CrazyEyes can't win anything, anyway?

Yeh well,

I get the crazy eyes, whenever I recall having this monstrosity shoved down our throats against our will..

Michele Bachmann is the ONLY candidate who hasn't equivocated on the issue.

129 Mutt doesn't have a conservative bone in his body. He is the epitome of the NE liberal Republican.

130

By the time our next president is inaugurated we will have gone 4 years without any Presidential leadership in this country. Any repeal of ObamaCare CAN be started in Congress as soon as a majority understand their mandate. My question is: if Romney isn't bright enough to lead in this issue, *IS* he intelligent enough to sign off on the repeal as soon as Congress hands it to him?

131 @126 I don't see anything the least extreme with Perry's abortion position.

132 Why would a man suck off the JEF even if you were into that sort of thing. I could see knobbing the honorable W.J. Clinton, but bottoming on the DL with Scoamfy? He's just too gay to be queer. And another thing...Moochelle as his beard ? Isnt the entire idea of a beard to provide plausible cover? What straight man would marry that thing?

133 BTW, Perry just announced that he didn't want to win the generals in 2012, with his extremist abortion flip-flop. Oh, so he's for abortion now?

134 If Romney were smart, he would defend the healthcare mandate with the same mealy-mouthed defense that Perry used for Texas illegals' tuition payments--hey, it was politically popular in my state, and the federal government had done nothing to solve the problem.

That is precisely what he did say.

135 Posted by: rockmom at December 28, 2011 01:39 PM (NYnoe)

Agreed -- we have mandatory insurance laws in Ohio -- why is it that I need UI coverage on my policy then...?  Yeah............

136 Besides all that you and Virginians have a right to a free and fair election... Most likely the Free Speech rights of the petition signers have been violated-I'd sure as hell make that argument.

137

The real cuplrit in all of this is the federal law that requires all ERs to care for anyone who comes in the door, regardless of insurance or ability to pay.   People don't buy health insurance or even go to the doctor for regular checkups because they know if something really bad happens they can just go to the ER and get care "for free."  There was never any mechanism put in place to allow hospitals to recoup those costs for that "free" ER care, other than jacking up prices for everything else.  Which is what they did. 

The whole health care mess in this country is a perfect example of what happens when you make something expensive "free."

138 127 Romney sucks, Perry sucks, they all suck, we are just arguing over who sucks least. If you wanna know why the MFM went out of their way to destroy Palin even after she lost in 08 it's so we would be stuck with these assholes.

Posted by: Mr Pink at December 28, 2011 01:43 PM (t2h4d)

I like Palin, but she gave the MFM a hellova lotta help in that endeavor

139 >>>So the only two Republican candidates with any real leadership experience No, there is another.

140 Three words --- real tort reform.

141

That is precisely what he did say.

Uhm, no, he said it was conservative.  Tell me you passed some crap bill, but don't tell me it was the conservative thing to do.  Rape me if you like, but don't tell me it was consensual afterwards.

142 Romney is uniquely situated to repeal ObamaCare. He's the only one in the field who: 1) knows the issue better than Obama and the press 2) cannot be called mean or cold or uncaring The whole premise of this blog is wrong. Romney hate makes people so illogical. I ask who was best to attack the Iraq War? Real liberals like Bernie Sanders and Barbara Boxer. Or moderate war vets like Jim Webb and Wesley Clark? You want someone who can credibly say "I understand both sides of the issue. And this is wrong".

143 wait a second - "not in the grit"? ace has been reading hard boiled detective fiction again! Yay! Michelle Bachmann: Broad or Dame?

144 The whole premise of this blog is wrong. Oh. Well, I'm sold!

145 The real cuplrit in all of this is the federal law that requires all ERs to care for anyone who comes in the door, regardless of insurance or ability to pay.

The federal law doesn't require that. It only requires them to treat/stabilize people who have a life threatening problems.

ERs treat all because of lawyers.

146 No fucking way will I pull the lever for the anti american pos we got now, he don't deserve the job. They are grifters, squatters, living it up on the tax payer's dime.

I think romney is an asshole, but he can cut off his left fucking nut, stick it on a plate, and run that for prez and I'll vote for it. I won't sit home, my job is to cancel out some other communist piece of shit's vote and send obama packing.

147 Wesley Clark is moderate? You should see a doctor, you are terminally full of shit.

148 I've been spamming the hell out of the threads-

but go take a look at the Sixth Circuit Court's opinion invader v Blackwell.

That refers to a Seventh Circuit Court opinion and the Supreme Court opinion in Buckley which states that -

An in state residency requirement for those that circulate petitions is- unconstitutional-and it is in violation of Perry's Free Speech, First Amendment rights.

Id Clay the concurring judge in that opinion is right -additionally -

Perry is entitled to rapid relief.

Posted by: tasker at December 28, 2011 01:41 PM (r2PLg)

Thanks tasker...yeah, I think I have the gist of most of that...at this point though, after the campaign we've seen so far, I'm not sure the Perry folks will figure any of that out in time for it to do them any good. I'll still vote for him if he can get himself back on the ballot here, but I'm not  hopeful. If it's only tinfoil hat guy vs. Obama-lite, then I'll just stay home that day.

149

Q: Why does Obama play golf?

A: If you were married to the First Wookie what would you do?

 

150

I get the crazy eyes, whenever I recall having this monstrosity shoved down our throats against our will..

I get the crazy eyes whenever I see a 10" Corndog slathered in mustard.

151 "I Don't Want To Be The Republican Nominee"

that's okay: we don't want you either...

no love,

conservatives for Perry 2012 everywhere

152 Palin said some dumb shit but she was a fuck ton more articulate than Perry. I never even liked her but I'd vote for her over the current crop of assholea we have.

153 Paul Ryan has set himself up to jump in the race after New Hampshire. He could have never gotten the Wyden-Ryan bill, which eliminates the Mediscare attack on him, had he jumped in during August.

Obama asking for 1.7 trillion more in debt is the perfect jumping point.

The problem is I'm not sure he wants it even though we, as a nation, need him to run.

154

That is precisely what he did say.

Uhm, no, he said it was conservative.  Tell me you passed some crap bill, but don't tell me it was the conservative thing to do.  Rape me if you like, but don't tell me it was consensual afterwards.

The fact that he said it was conservative doesn't change the fact that he also said exactly what you said you wanted him to say.  One doesn't negate the other.  Again, I disagree with him on its conservativeness.

155

No, there is another.

Huntsman?  Gag, but I guess you're right.  Did he accomplish jack when he was governing UT, though?  All I know about it is from my contacts in school choice/voucher circles, who are convinced to a man that Huntsman sold them out.

Also that Huntsman has been taking swipes at conservatives and conservatism.

So, OK, I'll amend my statement.  Of the three experienced executive Republican candidates for President, two don't want to be Republicans and one doesn't want to be President.

156 Romney is uniquely situated to repeal ObamaCare.

How many damn times do we need to say it? Presidents can not "repeal" shit. You need congress to do that and then the President can either approve it or veto it.

We will not have 60+ votes in the Senate. It is not physically possible. 

157 Erickson's take with a nice little tidbit.

158 for fun, when my lib friends start talking up just how damn smart and reasonable and electable John Huntsman and how they could vote for Huntsman in a heartbeat and it's a shame that the TeaPublicans, et cetera. I ask them if they'd vote for Huntsman in the Democratic Primary. If not, why not?

159 142, Romney is also the only one in the room that has proven he would take up a dozen opposing positions in order to be elected.  If as you say it will be politically difficult to repeal Obamacare, then Romney would be the one squish who would desparately try not to repeal it so he could stay elected.

160 At least he wasn't for the individual mandate before he was against it.

161

The whole health care mess in this country is a perfect example of what happens when you make something expensive "free."

Posted by: rockmom at December 28, 2011 01:45 PM (NYnoe)

Word.  Go to an ER on a Summer night and watch what comes in...an enlightening experience.

162 I was just throwing it out there, mostly to do the Yoda joke. Newt can claim some experience in this area. Not really executive experience but he did manage a fractious caucus.

163 127 Romney sucks, Perry sucks, they all suck, we are just arguing over who sucks least. If you wanna know why the MFM went out of their way to destroy Palin even after she lost in 08 it's so we would be stuck with these assholes.

Posted by: Mr Pink at December 28, 2011 01:43 PM (t2h4d)

Wrong, we could have had Mitch Daniels, but the social cons went batshit when he talked about calling a truce on social issues.  And Rick Perry might not have had to veer so far right in Iowa had all us true-blue conservatives not gone batshit crazy over his "heartless" comment in that first debate and over the Gardasil non-issue. 

Conservatives have no one to blame but themselves for the sorriness of this field.  Maybe next time people will hold their fire and worry about the really impiortant issues before summarily declaring a candidate a "non-conservative."

164 An Illegal Alien, a Muslim and a Communist go into a bar in D.C.

The bartender asks:

"What can I get you, Mr. President?"

165 Would Mitt even nominate conservative Sc justices? I see him going for "moderates" that appeal to the media. Actualy, I see him doing that with everything. Better than 4 more yrs of this, I know, but I'm thinking Mitt will be even worse than McCain would have been.

166 I think romney is an asshole, but he can cut off his left fucking nut, stick it on a plate, and run that for prez and I'll vote for it. I won't sit home, my job is to cancel out some other communist piece of shit's vote and send obama packing.

So, you're ambivalent?

167 @163 Bullshit.

168 It's short enough to copy the whole thing: ---- The individual mandate is an idea from the Heritage Foundation. Unfortunately, the person who came up with the individual mandate never lost his job and Heritage as the brain child has given cover to both Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich for their support of it. But the individual mandate is not conservative despite its Heritage Foundation origins and gives to the congress more power than is allotted it in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. Consider, though, that MItt Romney and Newt Gingrich still cling to the individual mandate as a good idea. The Heritage Foundation itself has long since apologized and repudiated the individual mandate. Back in 2010, Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation wrote, “Our research in the ensuing two decades has led us to realize our initial idea was operationally ineffective and legally defective.” Unfortunately, its creator is still around no doubt coming up with other bad ideas using the Heritage label to defend. But fortunately, the Heritage Foundation, unlike either Romney or Gingrich, is willing to admit when it makes a mistake. -----

169 The concept of buying health insurance is responsible - and being responsible for yourself is conservative.

The concept of the government forcing people to be responsible for themselves - and, by necessity, everyone else, of course - is radical leftism.

What's difficult about this?

170

ERs treat all because of lawyers.

Vic, I'll try not to be offended by that statement. I'll just state for the record that 99% of doctors went through the process of becoming a doctor specifically to be in a position to help others. A lot like a firefighter chooses his career.

And also for the record: if you ever actually saw a true figure of the dollar amount that physicians provide to patients when needed, at no cost to the patient, just because "it's the right thing to do"......you wouldn't believe that figure.

171 I won't sit home, my job is to cancel out some other communist piece of shit's vote and send obama packing.

Posted by: Berserker at December 28, 2011 01:48 PM (FMbng)

AMEN.

172 OT: More battling priests in Bethlehem. These people crack me up! http://goo.gl/wDE1S

173 Posted by: Handcuffed to the Bumper of a State Trooper's Ford at December 28, 2011 01:52 PM (tAwhy) --- Much better than how I put it.

174 >>>Wrong, we could have had Mitch Daniels, but the social cons went batshit when he talked about calling a truce on social issues. They went batshit but that's not why he didn't get into the race. He ducked the race because his wife did not want publicity about her abandoning him. Come on.

175

Romney is uniquely situated to repeal ObamaCare.

Only Nixon can go to China. 

176

Conservative solution to healthcare:

6) Eliminate the hurdles hot Asian nurses need to jump thru in order to come to America and work.

 

177

Things to do next November:

Vote

Sock up on canned goods and ammo.

178 I think you are way too hung up on this issue, Ace. I do believe there is a difference enacting this at a State versus Federal level - a huge difference. But forget that - this is not the end all be all of this election. No one issue ever is - except maybe in times of war, and really only world war or civil war, at that. As bad as ObamaCare is, it's not the only thing that matters.

There is no doubt that Romney is far from a Conservative candidate. Unfortunately, there are no good candidates. As much as you want to say "hey look at Perry again" you know he is not up to the task. We will need Congress to lead on the Conservative front. Romney will not lead the movement, but he will also not get in the way of a Congress moving legislation to undo this disaster of a Federal government.

That's all we got right now. That's our shot at beginning to slow the damage, and hopefully repair it, in our system starting in 2012. Otherwise, it's 2016 for us, and hopefully we still have a system to repair by then.

I wish we had a real Conservative candidate that could rally not just the party, but the country. Unfortunately, we don't have one in this race. Reality, Ace. It often bites, but it is inexorable. You are swimming too hard upstream trying to find something better than Romney that does not lead us back to Obama...

179

Posted by: The M. I. Double Tizzle at December 28, 2011 01:46 PM (ozpOn)

 

So, how many cocks did you have to suck to make it acceptible for you to claim you aren't gay?

180 If as you say it will be politically difficult to repeal Obamacare, then Romney would be the one squish who would desparately try not to repeal it so he could stay elected.

But according to Ace, 60% of the country wants it repealed, so it won't be politically difficult.  For the umpteenth time, why would he expend political capital trying to keep it?  Oh, yeah, cause he's a RINO!!!!!!!

181 I have other things to do today, but I hope people are getting Ace's point here: Romney has been bland and non-controversial about EVERYTHING except this. This is his baby. He won't abort it. Ever.

182

Good thing everyone dismissed Perry.

 

We're fucked. It doesn't matter now. It's too late. Romney is going to be the nominee. If he comes in first or second in Iowa then it's as good as done. He's locked up New Hampshire and I'm guessing he comes in second in SC and Florida.

I think in the history books we'll look back and the 2012 election of Romney as the final nail in the Reagan-Goldwater-Coolidge coffin.

We're now the Tory party of England, not the Republican party of Reagan.

Sigh.... Oh and fuck every decent candidate who didn't get into the race.

183

IÂ’m not a big Mitt fan, but someone got it right upthread – 2012 is not going to be about Obamacare.  The economy is the only item on the menu.

ItÂ’s time for Perry supporters to come to the realization that he is not going to be the nominee.  HeÂ’s one of three people competing for the bible-thumper vote and although Iowa might have plenty to go around, there just arenÂ’t enough to make a difference after that.

If you really can’t stand the thought of Romney, you should start planning the double bank shot into a brokered convention, ‘because that’s the only hope you’ve got.

184 >>>Maybe next time people will hold their fire and worry about the really impiortant issues before summarily declaring a candidate a "non-conservative." I agree with this though. The Urge to Purge is having the same results it always has.

185 WhatÂ’s conservative? Well, if the person doesnÂ’t want insurance, donÂ’t let them get out of paying their medical bills through bankruptcy. But forcing them to buy insurance? Not only is it not conservative, we can see in Massachusetts that health care costs have continued to go up as has the cost of government. So not only is Mitt RomneyÂ’s plan not conservative, it does not even work. ---- Another great quote from Erickson.

186 >>>But according to Ace, 60% of the country wants it repealed, so it won't be politically difficult. For the umpteenth time, why would he expend political capital trying to keep it? And yet it takes 60 votes to force cloture in the Senate, which we will not have.

187 Good thing everyone dismissed Perry. Yeah, it's too bad he dropped out of the race before the first primary. Oh, well.

188

The fact that he said it was conservative doesn't change the fact that he also said exactly what you said you wanted him to say.

I want him to make excuses *without* trying to justify the thing as good, conservative policy.

He didn't.

Same problem as with Perry on tuition for illegals, actually.  If he'd just made excuses, it wouldn't be a problem.  It's that he then went on to try and justify it, which shows that the excuse making is insincere.

Its like your spouse straying and saying 'Honey, I'm deeply sorry, but I was drunk and depressed and far away from home and we'd been fighting and this good-looking young person came on to me, and I strayed."  So far, so good.  Well, not good, but maybe workable.  Then your spouse adds "also I deeply care for this person and our marriage is a loveless sham."  The excuse doesn't matter anymore.  And *that* is what was wrong with Perry's defense of dollars for illegals and with Mitt's mandate mantra.

 

Again, you can tell my you are sorry.  You can implicitly tell me you're sorry by making excuses.  But you can't tell me that you were sorry and that you were right to do what you did.

189 I think Romney has stopped pandering for the nomination and is now lining up his general election talking points. 

He's not tacking right for the GOP base.  He's playing to the center that may not like specifics of ObamaCare but wasn't too happy with what went before either.

190

IÂ’m not a big Mitt fan, but someone got it right upthread – 2012 is not going to be about Obamacare.  The economy is the only item on the menu.

 

It's as simple as this.

If Obamacare is not overturned completely in 2013 then it's with us forever. There will be no eliminating it. Once people start to reap the "free money and benefits", we'll never be able to take them away.

Do you think Romney will do that? Once he wins, do you think the congress or senate are going to give a fuck about the base?

191 Would Mitt even nominate conservative Sc justices? I see him going for "moderates" that appeal to the media. Actualy, I see him doing that with everything.

Better than 4 more yrs of this, I know, but I'm thinking Mitt will be even worse than McCain would have been.

Posted by: brak at December 28, 2011 01:51 PM (qAC9a)

Still a net win for the nation if they're mostly replacing leftwing extremists on the SC. They'll damn sure be to the right of anyone SCoaMF will nominate.

192 One of those positions lines up (more or less) with the GOP base.  The other runs completely counter to the position of the GOP base.  I'll let you guess which is which.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at December 28, 2011 01:38 PM (8y9MW)

I disagree. The Republican platform calls for the creation of a pro-life culture, not the criminal prosecution of women who choose to terminate a pregnancy resulting from sexual assault. Using the coercive power of the state to force these victimized women to term is not a conservative idea, or doesn't seem to be to me. 

Secondly, the idea of the individual mandate more or less originated with the Heritage Foundation before it was reconsidered and put aside as probably unconstitutional. At the time, Romney wasn't alone in considering the mandate a conservative idea. Newt Gingrich and others also liked the individual mandate, especially since conservative think-tank thinkers were staying up late at night seeking ways to circumvent the implementation of UK-like, full-blown socialized medicine in the US. The reason the mandate is getting so much hot-button airplay now is because it looks like the loose thread that may allow the GOP to unravel all of ObamaCare in the courts, allowing us to forgo the long and unlikely to be successful slog through the legislative process.

Placing all hopes on repeal of ObamaCare on constitutional grounds seems like wishful thinking. The SCOTUS could just as easily decide it is constitutional. If Gingrich or Perry or Romney promises to do all they can as President to get it repealed, then that makes them equally viable on the issue.

193 The whole premise of this blog is wrong. Romney hate makes people so illogical.

I ask who was best to attack the Iraq War? Real liberals like Bernie Sanders and Barbara Boxer. Or moderate war vets like Jim Webb and Wesley Clark?

You want someone who can credibly say "I understand both sides of the issue. And this is wrong".

Posted by: The M. I. Double Tizzle at December 28, 2011 01:46 PM (ozpOn)

THIS.

When they finally got DADT repealed, my former congressman who was an Iraq veteran (and a married Catholic with 2 kids) carried the bill.  Democrats know how to play this game. 

194

Vic, this is the law. It doesn't require an emergency situation.

The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) requires any hospital that participates in Medicare and maintains a dedicated emergency department to (1) conduct an “appropriate screening exam” on anyone who comes to the hospital and asks to be treated and (2) stabilize any emergency condition it detects.

195

The real cuplrit in all of this is the federal law that requires all ERs to care for anyone who comes in the door, regardless of insurance or ability to pay. Posted by: rockmom

Wrong.
"Because Medicaid dramatically underpays physicians for treating Medicaid patients—under 60 percent of what private insurance pays—very few physicians actually admit Medicaid patients into their practices. As a result, many Medicaid beneficiaries are forced to go to the ER to seek basic medical care. And Medicaid underpays hospitals just as it underpays doctors. Indeed, on average, hospitals lose money on every Medicaid patient they treat, receiving 88 Medicaid cents for every dollar of health costs.

So hospitals are losing money, not because of uncompensated care due to EMTALA, but rather because of under-compensated care due to Medicaid and also Medicare. While uncompensated care may indeed account for tens of billions of dollars per year, under-compensated care accounts for hundreds of billions of dollars per year, a number that Obamacare will increase. The true “free-rider” isn’t the uninsured. It’s the government."

196 So we're arguing abortion and the individual mandate at the same time?! Awesome!

197

Romney is going to be a slightly more liberal version of George W. Bush.

 

vomit

198 If Romney is the nominee, we better hope to keep the house and take the senate, bucause that wishy-washy fucker will sign every bill that comes before him if the polls show it to be popular.

199 And yet it takes 60 votes to force cloture in the Senate, which we will not have.

We've had this discussion before.  If you were a Dem Senator, and you had witnessed back-to-back bloodbaths (10 and 12) due largely to OCare, wouldn't you decide that maybe it was time to reconsider your support?  I certainly would.  See Nelson, Ben (soon to be ex-Sen., Neb).

200

181 I have other things to do today, but I hope people are getting Ace's point here: Romney has been bland and non-controversial about EVERYTHING except this. This is his baby. He won't abort it. Ever.

 

that's it.

201 Ugh- In that clip Romney says- "the people in Massachusetts still favor it 3 to 1".. Talk about leadership-let's just vote Gallup in for the US Presidency. Here is what Romney doesn't tell you- the Massachusetts's Health Care mandate relies on a federalsubsidy and is unsustainable as it now stands. The Massachusetts plan might not have achieved universal coverage, but it has cost taxpayers a great deal of money. Originally, the plan was projected to cost $1.8 billion this year. Now it is expected to exceed those estimates by $150 million. Over the next 10 years, projections suggest that Romney- Care will cost about $2 billion more than was budgeted. And the cost to Massachusetts taxpayers could be even higher because new federal rules could deprive the state of $100 million per year in Medicaid money that the state planned to use to help finance the program. (The CATO Institute)

202

Perry is looking better and better every minute (although I have NEVER supported Romney)!

Go Perry Go!

I don't care if you miss the deadlines for ALL the primaries . . . let's go right to the convention, draft you, and then you can run 'you know who' out of the White House!

Go Perry Go (I repeat myself)!

203 If I hear one more Mittbot defend Romney by citing the fact that he was governor of Mass, I will blow a gasket. I happen to live in a state that is every bit as liberal as Massachusetts. It, too, was governed by a Republican at the same time as Romney was the Chief Executive there. Yet I don't recall Bob Ehrlich trying to foist anything remotely as bad on Maryland as Romneycare. In fact, he did a pretty good job of keeping the wolves at bay on most fiscal matters. He didn't stand a shot at getting re-elected in 2006 because he had bad fortune of having an -R next to his name in a Democrat year in a Democrat state, but at least he gave it the college try - and he sure as hell had a better shot than Mittens did if he had bothered to run again.

204

– 2012 is not going to be about Obamacare. The economy is the only item on the menu.

 

Not that this is a totally clueless statement, but just exactly how do you think the economy can be revived without taking the knife called ObamaCare out of the bleeding heart of the economy in the first place????

205 @192: If abortion is illegal, wouldn't it be the doctors that continued to perform abortions that were punished?

206 Part of me actually hopes that Romney gets the nomination and wins the election. Because in two years I will get to tell people like rockmom to go fuck themselves when they cry about President Romney continuing to fail to lead the push to repeal Obamacare.

207 Back in 2010, Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation wrote, “Our research in the ensuing two decades has led us to realize our initial idea was operationally ineffective and legally defective.”

Unfortunately, its creator is still around no doubt coming up with other bad ideas using the Heritage label to defend. But fortunately, the Heritage Foundation, unlike either Romney or Gingrich, is willing to admit when it makes a mistake.
-----

Posted by: Joffen at December 28, 2011 01:52 PM (zLeKL)

Ha, that is rich.  Heritage only backtracked on this after many Democrats called out republicans for their opposition to the mandate.  There was no research done.  It was pure political ass-covering by Heritage.  This just goes to show how far to the Right the GOP has been pulled in the past few years.

208 OT:  This guy must like mowing lawns even more than Hank Hill.

209 183

IÂ’m not a big Mitt fan, but someone got it right upthread – 2012 is not going to be about Obamacare.  The economy is the only item on the menu.

Posted by: jwest at December 28, 2011 01:54 PM (8moZm)

Problem is: the economy is about ObamaCare.  Do not fail to understand that ObamaCare will - and is intended to - destroy the economy (the Left doesn't give a crap about individuals' health care, except as representative of Government Planning).  Misunderstand that, and the ballgame is over.

210 Hey Paul Zummo.  I know lots of folks in MD.  Not all of them are assholes.  You are.

211 oh Lord.....just when i thought if things went to hell in a hand basket i'd suck it up and vote for romney without vomiting.....he jumps on the dining room table and urinates everywhere? damn him to hell......

212 Vic, I'll try not to be offended by that statement.

The intent wasn't whether or not doctors are altruistic or not. It was to specify what the actual federal law is. It does NOT require a hospital ER to treat every patient that walks through the door for every ailment they have.

213 O/T: Huge news, Nelson(D-NE) is retiring from Senate.
http://tinyurl.com/cjhhc2p

This is a guaranteed pickup for the R's.

214 We're now the Tory party of England, not the Republican party of Reagan. Actually I think we might be even more boned than the Tory Party under Blair-at least they had the chance or hope of-the vote of no confidence. Our situation will be even more set in stone-I think...wow.

215 Thanks Ace, I needed another reminder.

216 Hey pep, I could give a fuck what a pansy ass moderate thinks of me.

217 >>>We've had this discussion before. If you were a Dem Senator, and you had witnessed back-to-back bloodbaths (10 and 12) due largely to OCare, wouldn't you decide that maybe it was time to reconsider your support? I certainly would. We're going to win most of the in-play seats in 2012, most likely. That leaves the safe seats. A measure can be nationally unpopular but locally either popular or not so unopopular that it's going to cost you anything to vote the party line.

218 chemjeff Not exactly Bob Kerrey is actually looking at making a run for it...

219


I just want to say, for the record, that agrarian subsistence collective farming is abSOLUTEly a fundamentally conservative position.

If you disagree with me, then you're a Communist.

220

Petunia, Dr. Nomney will see you now....

http://tinyurl.com/3ladv67

221 I'm guessing he comes in second in SC and Florida.

The last SC poll I saw he was in 4th which is where he was in 2008 if I am not mistaken

222

Let's go back to some fundamentals that will allow us to fashion a conservative message about this issue.

1.  Healthcare and Medical Insurance are not the same thing--not conceptually, not economically, not semantically.  We have allowed those that want another gigantic expansion of the welfare state to make them the same thing.  Stop it.

2.  Tort reform does, in fact, matter in this discussion.

3.  Because physicians and hospitals are beholden to their liability concerns, we have a great many unnecessary procedures--and expensive ones at that--occurring every second and helping to drive the cost curve.

4.  Allowing plans across state lines does, in fact, matter in this discussion.

5.  Paying for routine doctor visits should be routine.  See #1 and #2 above.  You'd be amazed at what the market could accomplish on this issue.

6.  If Medicare is sacrosanct, then means testing it is already a necessity.  The "I paid for it" defense doesn't work for taking the Nimitz out for a spin and it shouldn't apply to Medicare.

7.  School vouchers work.  Healthcare vouchers would, too.  Tank Medicaid and go directly to vouchers for the poor.  A portion would be dedicated automatically to catastrophic insurance.

8.  #7 is subject to drug screening.  Period.  And if you have a child and apply for a voucher before or after--you have to name the father...and the father gets a DNA test to prove it.

9.  Want to lower the cost of new mass use drugs?  Offer upfront cash prizes for development--and require generic production afterwards.  Yeah, this will require some major cash outlays--but it will be far less expensive than continuing the prescription drug benefit indefinitely.  (Note:  The first couple of prizes should be for new antibiotics.)

10.  You have to prove your legal status or you will be deported after you are sewn up and no auto citizenship for children of illegals.

That's a start--and as a general rul, we should include more doctors in the policy discussions instead of dictating to them.

I don't see an individual mandate in there, Mitt.

223
This is a guaranteed pickup for the R's.

Which will offset the loss of Scott Brown.

224

The Republican platform calls for the creation of a pro-life culture, not the criminal prosecution of women who choose to terminate a pregnancy resulting from sexual assault.

Or for punishing women who get an abortion because her life is in serious danger, or her dad got her pregnant. 

Polls consistently show that even a majority of Republicans, even a majority of self-identified conservatives, do not favor the radical position that all abortions should be illegal, no exceptions.  If that becomes associated with the pro-life position, it will damage the pro-life cause.

Extremism in the defense of dwindling primary prospects is a vice.

 

225 I'm a pansy ass moderate with a basic grasp of grammar, though, so there's that.

226 We could lose the VA Senate race by the margin of Conservative voters who are rightly pissed off. A couple of hundred votes is all it takes to win-ask Al Franken.

227 We're fucking boned. It's bad enough that I'm constantly screaming at the television, and now I'm screaming at my laptop. I'll vote for the douche if he's the GOP nominee, but I don't have to like it. Not.One.Damn.Bit.

228 by the way, I am sick and tired of DRUDGE shilling for Massachusetts Mitt!

229 Ha, that is rich. Heritage only backtracked on this after many Democrats called out republicans for their opposition to the mandate. There was no research done. It was pure political ass-covering by Heritage. This just goes to show how far to the Right the GOP has been pulled in the past few years. What utter bullshit.

230
Is it me, or does Romney always seem so flustered and pressured, like someone is standing off stage with a gun to his daughter's, or male lover's, head?

He just seems to odd...like he's hiding something.

231

Nelson(D-NE)

 

No Pizza for you!

232 I wrote about this a lot before ObamaCare was passed. You had Demcorats faced with the same dilemma -- alienate the middle? Or alienate the base? They chose to alienate the middle. Which is probably the rational call, as the middle gives you votes, but the base gives you money + free politicking labor + votes.

233

Do you want a) European-style socialism by the truckful

or b) European-style socialism by the shovelful

234 This was from 2010. Romney apparently said he doesn't want the individual mandate repealed. (Politico)

235 I'm a pansy ass moderate with a basic grasp of grammar, though, so there's that. Not really, but hey, whatever gets you through the day.

236

#222, Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 28, 2011 02:06 PM

 

Hell, yes.

237

No one knows how Mitt would govern.  He may turn into a flaming liberal or he might find his inner conservative.  The one thing we should be focused on is creating a wave election that puts the democrats back in the Stone Age.

Despite the proclamations of doom, everything points to a republican sweep.  Democrat senators canÂ’t get to the door fast enough announcing their retirement.  Do you suppose theyÂ’re looking at polls and focus groups that we might not have access to?  Every indication is that itÂ’s going to be a left wing bloodbath, so we might as well make the most of it.

238 Perry 2012

239 (1) conduct an “appropriate screening exam” on anyone who comes to the hospital and asks to be treated and (2) stabilize any emergency condition it detects.

I'm not sure where you are disagreeing with me at. What has happened is that if they make a judgement call that some guy with a common cold is not in an emergency condition and do not treat him and he later has a problem totally unrelated to the cold, he will lawyer up and take it to an "urban jury".

240

#206 I am under no illusions that  President Romney would lead the charge on repealing Obamacare. 

Whatever he thinks, isn't going to matter when the fiscal shit finally hits the fan.  We can't afford it and he won't be able to pay for it.  This is also true if Obama is reelected.  He will have an open revolt on his hands with the states who cannot afford the additional Medicaid costs that are going to kick in.  The whole thing is a giant clusterfuck that is going to come crashing down on the next President, no matter who it is. 

What can't be sustained, won't be.  And one thing I do feel certain about is that Mitt Romney can do math, and he is going to have a more conservative Congress that will not raise taxes any more to pay for any of this shit.

241 That was really good, Circa.

242 And this is why I won't vote for this asshole if he's the nominee.

Take a chill pill and a glass of water.  Lesser of two evils and all that.  I won't vote for him but I live in Texas.  If I lived in a state he could conceivably lose I would take a vomit bucket with me and cast that vote.  Probably start shooting heroin afterwords.

243 For all the people arguing we have a free rider (see i.e. young healthy adults or illegals) problem, what is conservative about demanding that the young and healthy (and jobless/underemployed) pay for the cost of insuring the old and sick (who did not save money, over consumed, voted in bigger and more expensive government and helped run this country into ruin through Social Security, Medicare, public employee pensions, and lax border enforcement)?

244 I wrote about this a lot before ObamaCare was passed. You had Demcorats faced with the same dilemma -- alienate the middle? Or alienate the base?

True, they did choose to alienate the middle, bolstered by Nancy and Harry's sweet whisperings that the storm would pass and all would return to normal.  That clearly didn't happen, and my guess is that most of those who voted for this thing now wish that Ben Nelson had voted the other way and sent it down in defeat.

245

Perry 2012

Still there, until I can't be.

246

What has happened is that if they make a judgement call that some guy with a common cold is not in an emergency condition and do not treat him and he later has a problem totally unrelated to the cold, he will lawyer up and take it to an "urban jury".

No.  Its the minor conditions that turn life-threatening in a few statistically unlikely cases that are the problem.  Also many doctors and most hospital administrators are do-gooders who want to help people and will use lawsuits as an excuse if necessary.  Which is kinda laudable on an individual basis, but disastrous systemically.

247

>> You want someone who can credibly say "I understand both sides of the issue. And this is wrong"...  "Except for the individual mandate, which is fundamentally conservative.  That feature of Obamacare is fundamentally conservative."

 

That doesn't really sound credible to me.  YMMV.

248 Is it me, or does Romney always seem so flustered and pressured, like someone is standing off stage with a gun to his daughter's, or male lover's, head?

He just seems to odd...like he's hiding something.

Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz Romney at December 28, 2011 02:07 PM (tcSZb)

I think it's more like he just discovered a warm turd in his pocket and needs to dispose of it without calling attention to it.

249

Perry 2012

I was already only barely there, but this last blatant abortion pander has put me off.  I don't really care which of these maroons slouch their way to victory.

250 O/T: Huge news, Nelson(D-NE) is retiring from Senate.

Ha-ha!

251 I am under no illusions that President Romney would lead the charge on repealing Obamacare. Then why support this nothingburger of a candidate? Not only will he not lead the charge, dollars to donuts he will actively work to ensure that no vote takes place to repeal it, especially if it starts looking like the political winds are against repeal. As others have said, it's just madness that we're continually told to just accept this guy as our nominee in a year when we don't have to settle.

252 Why Gingrich Went to Greece Newt Gingrich tells Matt Bai "in what may be a characteristic bit of revisionist history, that it was clear early on that he needed to break free of his highly paid and conventional consultants, and that he and his wife, Callista, actually took their much-maligned Greek vacation last June -- a pleasure trip in the middle of what was supposed to be his ramp-up as a candidate -- in order to provoke a confrontation with the campaign's leadership. (Gingrich later added that he really needed to see the Greek fiscal crisis up close.) If so, it worked, because the entire senior team quit en masse when he got back." ---- (Hot Air)

253 Yup. And I agree with Romney in principle. Since we mandate that hospitals/clinics have to treat we should mandate that people have to at least carry a major medical plan so that costs don't get shifted to those who do buy insurance and the taxpayers. --BUT an individual mandate to buy insurance before fixing all the bugs with not being able to buy across state lines and stupid states being able to set up monopolies for one carrier, and mandating that any policy covers a bunch of crap is just making things worse -- PLUS the federal mandate is the best tool to kill the beast that is Obamacare so defending it, even in principle right now is just horribly horribly stupid. FIX the malpractice racket which generates doctoring by endless CYA tests, allow flexibility in buying insurance, fix medicaid to stop incentives for recipients to seek the most expensive care option because they are guaranteed to get that free to them ... then we can see if there is even any need to have a mandate to control costs.

254 Yeah Paul Zummo you're the kind of man that would rather Romney fail at implementing policies you want in order for you to be proven right. No different than the war protesters that wanted us to fail in Iraq.

255 Romney 2012 : Now with More Chicken!

256 Again I'll say it, consider the Presidency lost, and concentrate on getting Tea partiers elected in the house and senate. That way, there'd be only so far a libtard Pres could go.

257 rockmom.........romney will let obamacare be repealed when they pry it from his cold, dead hands......and to believe otherwise is foolish.......he won't back down from his failed policy that obama's failed policy is based on.......

258 Paraphrasing Inigo Montoya ... "Unelectable ... I don't think it means what you think it means." Seriously ... Rolling back Obamacare is a function of the congress. The president can be pressured to sign off on it, or to be overridden if they veto it. Basically your argument is "elect a conservative congress", which I do agree with. And reducing spending is ... drumroll please ... a function of congress. Congratulations. You've just indicated exactly why we should be voting for a conservative congress. This is something we all agree on, again. But whether or not Romney comes out on one side or the other of the individual mandate as making him unelectable? I mean, seriously? Yeah, this is about the weakest argument against Romney I've heard. Here it is in a nutshell. Take two functions that he really wouldn't have control over, just basically lobby for or against, and sign, or have his veto overridden, and use these particular views as excluding him from consideration for the presidency as this makes him somehow ... unelectable ... even though these aren't his functions should he be elected. Yeah. That is the argument. Romney would be infinitely more friendly to business than teh One. So would most of the R's. Romney doesn't seem like he would fuck up foreign relations as badly as O has. Romney seems like he would project strength. So would the others, save one. And of these, the unelectable ones are the ones who could not appeal to the people we need to appeal to, in order to fix the things the president can fix. To claim that a candidate whom has wide appeal is unelectable because of a few things that aren't his function anyway ... Yeah, thats sad. I'd ask if people were inventing reasons at this point. And I think I know the answer to this. Keep this shit up and O's gonna have a second term. Unelectable. Yeah. Right.

259

What can't be sustained, won't be. And one thing I do feel certain about is that Mitt Romney can do math, and he is going to have a more conservative Congress that will not raise taxes any more to pay for any of this shit.

Posted by: rockmom at December 28, 2011 02:10 PM (aBlZ1)

 

Well said.  Romney may be a stinker in many respects, but he's not being elected dictator (unless he chooses to be like the lawless criminal Obama) so I'm not that worried.  What worries me is what will happen in the congressional elections.  If those go badly, then we will have real trouble.

260

>> FIX the malpractice racket which generates doctoring by endless CYA tests.

 

Tort reform.  Guess why malpractice insurance rates are dropping in Texas?

261 I shouldn't have posted -- I have to run now and will be busy for the next few hours and can't debate anything I said. Oh well such is life.

262 I was already only barely there, but this last blatant abortion pander has put me off. I don't really care which of these maroons slouch their way to victory. So let me get this right. You honestly believe that Perry would change his mind on a controversial issue a week before Iowa, and that he'd do so only for political gain? Come on.

263 A measure can be nationally unpopular but locally either popular or not so unpopular that it's going to cost you anything to vote the party line.

So, assume that is the case, and the Dems filibuster and block repeal.   What difference does it make to this issue if the president is Obama, Romney, or (shudder) Paul?

264 Public: We hate this bill Nancy Pelosi: You'll love it after we pass it and then read it. Public: We read it, it sucks. Mitt Romney: I hear ya, that's why we need to keep it.

265

I am smart.  In case you haven't noticed, I am playing the long game.  I am running against Obama, and he is going to be running against me.  I know conservatives already hate me over Romney Care, so why do I need to grovel and apologize for it.  I can't erase the past.  By defending the Massachusettes mandate as a state specific solution to a specific state's problems, that is nonetheless unworkable on the Federal level, I take away a huge chunk of Obama's ammo.  I can still go after Obamacare without looking like a hypocrite.  As soon as I apologize for, or repudiate my own work, I lose any leverage I have on that issue.

 

266 I never understood the defense of the pro-life but . . . position. If you are opposed to abortion (as I am) then you do so because you think life is sacred and that it begins at conception. Saying that abortion is okay under certain circumstances is logically inconsistent. You're essentially saying that all life is sacred except for life conceived under terrible circumstances. Sure it sounds - GASP! - mean to say that you would make ALL abortions illegal, but it's the only morally consistent position.

267 .......he won't back down from his failed policy that obama's failed policy is based on.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl all in for perry at December 28, 2011 02:17 PM (Ho2rs)

 

I'm not so sure.  He's already trying to invent a distinction between his plan and Obie's plan.  I think he's trying to create a way out.

 

268 No one knows how Mitt would govern.He may turn into a flaming liberal or he might find his inner conservative.The one thing we should be focused on is creating a wave election that puts the democrats back in the Stone Age. Posted by: jwest

There is no reason to believe he won't govern exactly as he had governed in MA. Reaching across the aisle will probably be the norm in his Admin. He's a technocrat that believes there is no problem that government can't solve and if there aren't enough problems, he'll find some.

I'm fine with voting for him but I would warn against thinking we are somehow immune to things going disastrously wrong for the Right in the greater sense and the GOP in the lesser.

There is a very real and significant chance that 2012 will turn into another recession, one that can't be saved by another $16 trillion. Romney will try, though, and only succeed in trashing capitalism ala Bush 43, becoming Hoover's true heir, and opening the door for a more forceful socialist Democrat.

269

Obligatory Rawn Pawl thread up.

More warm fuzzies for the Moron Horde.

270 I am all but certain if Romney fails to get the nomination this year he wouldn't run again in 2016.  (presuming its open)

Besides the GOP field has lots of strong up and comers in 2016 and "settling" on Romney wont be on anyone's todo list.

271

#243 Because we have an aging society, and speaking as a 53-year-old who has taken care of herself, doesn't smoke or do drugs, isn't overweight, and has always carried insurance, and never runs to the doctor at the first sniffle, I can tell you that I still consume more health care than I used to.  Because our bodies are designed to last about 50 years.  Everything starts to fall apart after that.  I have a couple of chronic ailments that are simply problems of older people.  Should you be required to "pay for that" through insurance?  Yeah, you should, because my insurance is going to pay for your childbearing (VERY expensive, BTW), your drunk-driving accident, your played-too-much-pickup-basketball knee strain, etc.  Putting us all into the same giant risk pool is the best way to reduce costs. 

272

Tort reform. Guess why malpractice insurance rates are dropping in Texas?

Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 28, 2011 02:18 PM (WvXvd)

 

Yep.  Concrete, real life examples like this need to be publicised.  Tort reform would go a long way toward making things work better in this country.  Going to the doctor shouldn't be like buying a lotto ticket.  Lawyers shouldn't make more off of medicine that doctors and researchers.

 

273 Well I haven't read all the comments.

But I get the impression that a lot of people here simply want government out entirely from health care.  Is that right? 

I don't think that has ever been the position of any Republican candidate.  That is a Libertarian position.

274
I'd give my leftnut to worry about the failings of a President Romney.

We'll be lucky to hold the House and some of you are frettin over the awful things that Not President Obama will do.

275

Posted by: CarolinaPunk at December 28, 2011 02:12 PM (tUgSx)

 

You are forgetting that to Obama, the CBC and most Dems, Public Healthcare  is a form of wealth redistribution. 

The mandate argument from conservatives was reactionary to this aspect of the proposal for ShrillCare.  The thinking was that a mandate would force a bit of equality into the law defeating the redistributory aspect of the law.

276 Tasker, everyone knows about the Fed subsidies. It's the linchpin.

277

Posted by: CarolinaPunk at December 28, 2011 02:12 PM (tUgSx)

 

You are forgetting that to Obama, the CBC and most Dems, Public Healthcare  is a form of wealth redistribution. 

The mandate argument from conservatives was reactionary to this aspect of the proposal for ShrillCare.  The thinking was that a mandate would force a bit of equality into the law defeating the redistributive aspect of the law.

278 HERE'S THE THING NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT:

If Romney is elected, there is a strong chance we will have majorities (and possibly large ones) in both Houses of Congress.  Some may argue that we will do even better in Congress with a Romney because Independents will be less fearful of giving absolute power to the far right were Romney ulra-conservative.

So, THE POINT IS MOOT.  It doesn't matter what Romney thinks about Individual Mandates because Congress would never allow him to implement them.

The point being, your "deal-killer" here on Romney simply may not matter.

279

Tort reform.

Sounds good, but frankly that shouldn't be the federal government's business.

Conservatives should have no part in expanding federal control over an area--medical tort--where it isn't already involved.

The Constitution means what it means even when its inconvenient to conservatives.

280 And, as I mentioned yesterday in one of the open threads:

I think the mandate is a conservative idea, but not a libertarian idea.  I think a lot of people get the two confused, especially since the conservative movement has gotten a lot more libertarian lately.  It IS conservative to demand that people pay for what they consume, as opposed to having the collective pay for everything.  Now the mandate is not the only way to move towards personal responsibility, nor is it the best way IMO, but in the universe of possible options, the individual mandate is more conservative than not.

281 How'd I do that?  Sorry...

282

Putting us all into the same giant risk pool is the best way to reduce costs. 

There was a time when, if you did not have the money, you did not get the operation. America became the strongest nation on earth during those times. A crack head that never saved a dime in his life does not deserve to be in the same risk pool as you, because he is not the same risk!

I like the system in the Philippines: no money, no surgery. Health care is one fifth the cost in that country than here.

283

I want to add one more thing to my points at #222, and this is a preface to every other issue under discussion and some of you have touched on it and it's why, while no fan of Romney, I will gladly pull the lever for him against you know who:

Nothing will matter if we do not get the economy moving.  No amount of spending cuts, wise health policy choices, reinventing education, deterring Iran.  We will not be able to even attempt an escape from the current fiscal trap if we are not growing.  I believe, failing all else, that every Republican--even addled, stupid, insane Ron Paul even gets this point.

Obama willingly and in a breathtaking display of intellectual dishonesty refuses to acknowledge it.

 

284 But I get the impression that a lot of people here simply want government out entirely from health care.  Is that right?   Posted by: chemjeff

No. Find one comment here that advocates it.

285 So for those that are rightly against the Fed mandating an individual requirement to purchase insurance also against the Fed mandating a cap on what an individual can collect on a malpractice claim?

286 257 rockmom.........romney will let obamacare be repealed when they pry it from his cold, dead hands......and to believe otherwise is foolish.......he won't back down from his failed policy that obama's failed policy is based on.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl all in for perry at December 28, 2011 02:17 PM (Ho2rs)

He will, and so will Obama, because the math is going to catch up to them.  The country is not going to stand for another $10 trillion in debt to pay for more "free" health care.  Neither Romney nor Obama is going to massively cut other stuff to pay for this.  Obama will try to raise taxes but he hasn't been very successful at that already, and he is going to have a Republican Senate.

As many have said, Romney's health care plan in Massachusetts has already been more expensive than he thought it would.  Gov. Patrick responded by trying to deny the rate increases by the insurers, but they sued him and he backed off.  Now he is having to propose tax increases and cuts to other programs to pay for it.  The people there are getting a very good firsthand education in paying for "free" and "universal" health care.  And so will the next President, whether it is Obama or a Republican.

287

Posted by: chemjeff at December 28, 2011 02:25 PM (s7mIC)

You cannot force responibility but you can punish irresponsibility.

288

Conservatives should have no part in expanding federal control over an area--medical tort--where it isn't already involved.

Where it interferes with the ability of insurance companies to offer plans across state lines--actual as opposed to imaginary use of the commerce clause--it is absolutely warranted.

289 Ive always perceived Ron Paul to be an isolationist rather then a pacifist.  He would support the blood in the streets revolutionary war but not the blackhawk down Somalia type operations.

290

Zummo,

if you can't see what's concerning about using the power of the state to force women to carry babies without their consent (rape, incest) or where it could kill the women, that's your problem, not mine. 

But the vast majority of Americans do see the problem.  If you can't follow our logic, you can at least follow the polling data.  The absolutist pro-life position is electoral poison.  Especially if your justification for it is pandering to Iowa evangelicals.

Perry has just announced he doesn't want to be President.

291 HERE'S THE THING NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT: Actually multiple people have already brought this point up on this thread alone, but go ahead. Some may argue that we will do even better in Congress with a Romney because Independents will be less fearful of giving absolute power to the far right were Romney ulra-conservative. On the other hand, the majorities might be smaller than they would have been otherwise because the grassroots vote will be depressed due to dissatisfaction with Romney. So, THE POINT IS MOOT. It doesn't matter what Romney thinks about Individual Mandates because Congress would never allow him to implement them. First of all, using all caps or bold doesn't make your point any more valid. Second, no one is really talking about Romney implementing individual mandates. The argument is two-pronged: he will have a reluctance to dismantle elements of Obamacare because they actually mirror his preferred policy, and it is a bit odd having as our standard bearer against Obama the guy who supported and still seems to support the essence of Obamacare.

292 No. Find one comment here that advocates it.

Well, see 282 for starters.  And 112.

Also I see quite a few comments complaining about the mandate but very few comments advocating for what should replace it.

293 The GOP nominee, whoever that may be, needs some of the 'independent' middle to win.

A significant chunk of that middle does not go to sleep every night muttering 'Obamacare delenda est'.   Maybe there's a lot they don't like about it, but they also think that the healthcare 'system' is broken.

For me, right now, it's "If not Rick then Mitt."

I had high hopes for Perry.  I still think that of the GOP candidates he's the one with the strongest executive record and the one most likely to take a chainsaw to the federal bureaucracy.   But he and his campaign have made a lot of unforced errors.

Mitt is a 'manager' rather than a 'leader', his efforts are those of a Bain partner trying to draft a proposal the client will buy into.  He's an experienced bureaucrat, not a visionary.   I may not love a Mitt presidency, but I do not fear it.   He's Bush 41, not Bush 43, and as far as I'm concerned that's not a bad thing.

I do fear Newt, a bit.  He'd be a gigantic WTF machine.  Half the time he'd be hacking away at the bad guys and making us all cheer, then he'd turn around and unload his messianic streak on the good guys instead.  Whether the net would be positive or negative I'm reluctant to guess, but it wouldn't be boring.  

294 Good evening fellow fat cats! HaHa! Thanks for coming to the Waldorf Astoria tonight. So how was that $32,000 plate of salmon eh? HaHa! Now some people might call you the Elite....or the Republican Establishment............or Evil Capitalists....but not me! I prefer to call you "the only people I'll listen to once I'm in the White House"!! Haha! Hey, how bout them Occupy Wall Street folks out there? Talk about occupy, I'm sure you'd all like to re-occupy those Swiss bank accounts huh? HaHa! Don't you worry about that. We are going to get that done!

295 if you can't see what's concerning about using the power of the state to force women to carry babies without their consent (rape, incest) or where it could kill the women, that's your problem, not mine. Again, you're missing the point. Opposition to abortions stems from the belief that all human life is worthy of defense. Saying that certain lives are okay to have snuffed out due to their manner of conception is logically and morally inconsistent. But the vast majority of Americans do see the problem. If you can't follow our logic, you can at least follow the polling data. Yeah, I don't base my beliefs on polling data. Sometimes a majority is wrong.

296

Where it interferes with the ability of insurance companies to offer plans across state lines--actual as opposed to imaginary use of the commerce clause--it is absolutely warranted

I don't follow.  It isn't tort law that prevents insurance companies from offering insurance across state lines.  Its laws that, you know, forbid insurance companies from offering insurance across state lines.

I agree that Congress has the power under the Commerce Clause to allow insurance sales across state lines.

 

297

Yeah, I don't base my beliefs on polling data. Sometimes a majority is wrong.

Perry is (in theory) running to be President.  Presidents are elected by majorities.

298

In every measurable realm of actual performance, Romney is just a first rate turd burglar.

 

Not impressed with him.  If he gets the nod it will be just like when mccain ran against the First Muslim.

 

299 Everyone talking about making the uninsured somehow register, pay their debts, etcm is missing the point. These people are often the same people who NEVER pay bills, NEVER go through normal channels. Law Enforcement and Social Services are their insurance.

300 No. Find one comment here that advocates it.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 28, 2011 02:27 PM (ZIcZg)

I will say it: The government has no business in health care. Private groups do a better job of dispensing to the needy than the government.

301 And it is just the impression I get, really.  If my impression is wrong, fine.  But I hardly see anything except "tort reform" that would attempt to serve as some sort of model conservative solution for how health care should be delivered.

302

 Opposition to abortions stems from the belief that all human life is worthy of defense.

Not mine.  Not most peoples.  Most of us are OK with just wars and capital punishment, for instance.

303

#282 that is absolutely, categorically not true.  My father was a small-town doctor in the days before Medicare or Medicaid, and he did hundreds of operations for free, or for whatever the patient could pay, including baskets of vegetables and even a quilt that one patient sewed for him.  He would take $5 a month for 5 years if necessary.  But he never turned a poor patient away.  )  It is a 100% liberal myth that we ever had people dying or not being treated because they couldn't afford it. 

One thing few people know is that in the early 1970s, the IRS ruled that doctors could no longer write off pro bono care, unless they had made three attempts to collect the bill.  My Dad had to hire an accountant and start sending out collection notices after he got hit with a bill for $10,000 in back taxes.  It broke his heart, and forced him to raise his rates. 

In 1965 my Dad told me that Medicare would bankrupt the country and that I would see completely socialized medicine in America in my lifeteime. 

304 ""by the way, I am sick and tired of DRUDGE shilling for Massachusetts Mitt!""



Don't you mean Masshole Mitt? lol

305

I will say it: The government has no business in health care. Private groups do a better job of dispensing to the needy than the government.

Posted by: Cicero Kid

He wrote 'entirely.' That would entail all laws regarding drugs, licensing, and fraud. All, not just insurance and care.

To say that anarchy is a conservative position is dishonest.

306 Not mine. Not most peoples. Most of us are OK with just wars and capital punishment, for instance. ------------------------------------ We haven't had a just war since the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor. And don't talk to me about 9-11, cuz we didn't drop a single bomb on the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

307 for those that say it won't be about Obamacare, it will be the economy. there are a lot of expenses in hiring , this will be an indicator of how many will be hired.

308

I would go farther than Obamacare and be confident that my position is the conservative one.

My choice for healthcare is the same as Freidrich HayekÂ’s.  Just as we band together as citizens to provide relief for natural disasters, we should be willing to do the same for truly insurable risks like catastrophic illness. 

For everyday healthcare, people should have individual medical savings accounts.  However, only by pooling resources and risk can we protect people against crushing debt when a catastrophic illness or accident hits. If it is a single payer government system, there can be limits that prevent pissing public money away on heroic efforts that have a miniscule chance of working.

Everyone would be free to have any procedure they wanted, but the government guidelines would only pay for what has a reasonable chance of working.

309

285...Putting caps on malpractice claims:

That depends what the cap is.  If there is a law that says if someone gets injured he is allowed to be rewarded with unlimited dollars from an evil corporation, then yes, it needs fixed. 

The judicial system allows for the punishment of criminals within the allotted punishments provided for by legislation.  It would make sense that legislating a range of civil awards could also be done.

However, they can fix all this by REQUIRING the losing party of any lawsuit to pay all legal fees and expenses of the defending party, and if the losing party doesn't have enough, then their lawyers would be held liable.

310 284 But I get the impression that a lot of people here simply want government out entirely from health care.  Is that right?   Posted by: chemjeff

No. Find one comment here that advocates it.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 28, 2011 02:27 PM (ZIcZg)

I do.  But that's a Utopian stance, and I know that.  The horse is not only out of the barn, it has multiplied and taken over the damn farm.  Way too late to get it back into the barn, all we can do now is try to manage the herd and minimize the damage it is doing.  But we can still point out how things were better when there was only one horse and he was in the barn.

311

Don't you mean Masshole Mitt? lol

 

+100000!

312 No. Find one comment here that advocates it.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 28, 2011 02:27 PM (ZIcZg)

Fine here's another comment. The federal government should be totally out of health care. It is not authorized by the Constitution and they should not be spending one red cent of tax payer funds on it.

State government should only be involved to the extent that they provide licensing requirements for doctors and hospitals.

The quality of drugs should be a State law and enforced via private self-policing groups with public penalties for knowing violators. Civil penalties for sloppy violators.

313 But I hardly see anything except "tort reform" that would attempt to serve as some sort of model conservative solution for how health care should be delivered. Posted by: chemjeff

Where were you during the 2009 HCare debate? Did you read anything written by conservatives? 

You could start with the Avik Roy article I posted above.

There's a whole shitload of articles at NRO . Here's one written by a med prof that brings up an obvious Conservative idea, national market for insurance.

Are you asking because you honestly are not familiar with the conservative position on HCare?

314 301 And it is just the impression I get, really. If my impression is wrong, fine. But I hardly see anything except "tort reform" that would attempt to serve as some sort of model conservative solution for how health care should be delivered. Posted by: chemjeff at December 28, 2011 02:36 PM (s7mIC) Our government was not designed to deliver consumer services. If you want that kind of thing, there are dozens of bankrupt small European socialist states to suit you. It's fucking unconstitutional and the slippery slope of all slippery slopes, why the Hell do people not get that? We are so damned boned.

315

BTW, instead of tort reform what we need is to abolish malpractice insurance entirely.  If the doctor has only his own assets available, nobody will sue him.  After my dad was sued he had no insurance at all because nobody would insure him, then he had to pay $100,000 a year for a few years.  Who the hell else in America has to fork over that much money just to be allowed to practice their profession?  Instead, we should have the state medical associations or another group set up a malpractice claim fund that all doctors have to pay a small amount into, with an impartial panel determining awards and doctors who truly committee malpractce shiould lose their licenses.

Having lived through a groundless malpractice suit, it is something I would not wish on anyone.  Most insurance companies prefer to settle, and that starts another cycle of higher and higher premiums, all of wehcih get passed onto the patients.

316 I'm sure it's been said previously, but the word for the government forcing an individual to do something that's not in their own self-interest isn't "conservative".

317

For everyday healthcare, people should have individual medical savings accounts.  However, only by pooling resources and risk can we protect people against crushing debt when a catastrophic illness or accident hits. If it is a single payer government system, there can be limits that prevent pissing public money away on heroic efforts that have a miniscule chance of working.

 

If you want to go that route, a catastrophic care insurance voucher would be more conservative, since it would allow competition.

318 I'm not sure why Mitt feels so cocky about having the nom wrapped up. Newt is still up 2.5 points on the RCP average. And after Iowa and NH the race will be completely different. With Perry, Bachmann and Santorum essentially out, that leaves 15% up for grabs and I don't see that support flowing to Mitt, especially if he keeps making statements like this. It is far from over. Newt may not be perfect, but he's a heck of a lot better than Mitt IMO.

319 I think we all know what the only real way to deal with the 'free rider' problem is.

We'll never do it, of course.  Even though we probably should.

320

Fine here's another comment. The federal government should be totally out of health care. It is not authorized by the Constitution and they should not be spending one red cent of tax payer funds on it. Posted by: Vic

305

321 #316 It's not in my self-interest to keep paying higher and higher insurance premiums every years because so many other "self-interested" people refuse to.  It's a huge free rider problem, and there isn't a textbook-conservative answer for those and never has been.  It isn't particularly conservative to keep jacking up gasoline taxes, but try asking for voluntary contributions to maintain the highways and see what you get. 

322 BTW, not sure if you're still on this thread, but I apologize to you rockmom. A confluence of a bad cold, a whiny 2-year old, and moving stuff around the basement had me in a testy mood there.

323 He has also said repeatedly that he would work to repeal ObamaCare.  He isn't going to admit RomneyCare was a mistake, we have known this for months.  I am at peace with that as long as we get rid of ObamaCare.  Hey, if some libs in lib land want to create a mandate for their state, I really don't care, as long as I don't have it here.

324 weft-cut loop, no I was not seriously suggesting that people here were advocating that government laws against fraud in health care should be repealed.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.  What I was suggesting was that a great deal of people here agreed with people like Vic, CiceroKid, rockmom, etc., who want "government out of health care" pretty much entirely, but not to the extent of permitting fraud.  I'm assuming that this means no more Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

I know that there are some conservative solutions for health care but I hardly ever see them presented here.  To mention National Review favorably in this place is to be called out as a pro-establishment RINO sellout.

325

This is why I will vote for the GOP nominee [and I'm not worrying about Paul because he won't get it]. Anyone who knocks out Obama and begins what I think must be a decades long effort to get rid of the marxists is who i vote for. Given the  presidential choices, it is even more necessary to focus on extending the House majority and taking a majority in the Senate.

If Romney is the nominee, there is no good reason to have him carry the water on the individual mandate because he can't. And apparently his strategy is to leave himself zero wiggle room. LOL

Let the House and Senate members take on Obama care. This will be tricky because it gives the MFM an opportunity to use the issue as a wedge and to emphasize the dissension. If Romney is elected, present a bill to him to sign. If he doesn't, one and done.

Just having a putatively conservative President for one term is not going to turn this all around. I think its foolish to get disheartened because there is no quick fix. Face it: there is no quick fix. The fight to bring this country back safely from the brink will take years. Get used to it.

326 oops sock/off

327 To "get government out of health care" is a libertarian solution, not a conservative solution, at least to the extent that I understand conservatism.

From the article weft-cut loop linked to @ 313:

Third, government can empower individual Americans and their families by revamping the tax treatment of health-care expenses, so that all Americans can become shoppers for their health insurance. A federal system of refundable health-care tax credits would introduce personal ownership and portability of insurance and increase the market competition that the Obama administration and Democrats claim to support.

This is, essentially, a subsidy to people to buy health insurance.  Do people here support this?

328 no I was not seriously suggesting that people here were advocating that government laws against fraud in health care should be repealed.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.  Posted by: Cicero Kid

I didn't assume you did. I was responding to Chem's strawman that conservatives believe there should be zero government involvement in healthcare. It's irritating enough when Lefties try that line.

To mention National Review favorably in this place is to be called out as a pro-establishment RINO sellout. Posted by: Cicero Kid

Did you read the article? Did you examine anything the author wrote? Is it the messenger and not the message that counts? Ideas aren't important as convenient labels?

Call me goofy but I thought the point of being a conservative was applying principles that best reflect the world as it is and not engaging in tribalism.

329 Conservatives keep saying we need more competition and private sector control over health care, but they really have not offered much of a solutuon to the free rider problem


The conservative "solution" should be to ruthlessly gut the federal government so that no health care is being managed by bureaucrats thousands of miles away. Let states, or better yet, counties or cities, deal with issues like that if they want to, in any way they want. They have the power to tax too.

330 Keyrist Almighty, Romney won't even admit he was wrong about Massholecare.  The man is completely tone deaf.  If you can't admit when you're wrong you are not getting my vote titweasel.  The hair and smile only get you so far in the door then I kick your ass to the curb.

331 7 Reasons Why Romney's Electability Is a Myth by John Hawkins

332 328  Posted by: Cicero Kid

Sorry, Cicero. I thought I was responding to your comments.

333 You cannot force responibility but you can punish irresponsibility. Posted by: Cicero Kid at December 28, 2011 02:28 PM (boLoz) I'm sure this concept is hugely important, but damned if I understand it. Sounds Proggressive from here.

334

I think the mandate is a conservative idea, but not a libertarian idea.  I think a lot of people get the two confused, especially since the conservative movement has gotten a lot more libertarian lately.  It IS conservative to demand that people pay for what they consume, as opposed to having the collective pay for everything.  Now the mandate is not the only way to move towards personal responsibility, nor is it the best way IMO, but in the universe of possible options, the individual mandate is more conservative than not.

I might agree, if you ignore the constitutionality element (which you can if you're only talking about Romney's part of it).  There is also the whole bit about increasing the power of the state, which isn't the only consideration for a conservative, as opposed to a libertarian, but is still a serious consideration.

335 This is, essentially, a subsidy to people to buy health insurance.  Do people here support this? Posted by: chemjeff

Are mortgages subsidized because mortgage loan interest is deductible?

Food is often excluded from state sales taxes. Are states subsidizing food?

Are children subsidized because of the accounting for dependents in our income tax code? Again, what's the standard here?

I think it muddies the water to call tax deductibility a subsidy.

336

Good Lord Ace give it a rest already. Everybody knows you are not a fan of Romney. How exactly does the Mass plan hurt Romeny against Obama in the general? How? Romney can easily exploit the differences.

Secondly, Romney can hammer Obama on every other single issue. Who else cn do that? Perry? No doubt Perry would be the best executive of the bunch but he would have to win first. And since he can't even win in his own party what makes anybody think he can beat Obama?

Gingrich? He loved the Romney plan before he was against it.  Bachmann? Yes, that's what we need, another person in the WH with zero leadership experience. Huntsman? Santorum?

Romeny is the best we have, live with it. Get behind him so we can stick it to the idiot liberals come November.

 

 

337

Are mortgages subsidized because mortgage loan interest is deductible?

Yes.

Food is often excluded from state sales taxes. Are states subsidizing food?

 

Yes.

Are children subsidized because of the accounting for dependents in our income tax code?

Yes, though not enough.

338 Anyway, we're not talking about tax deductibility here.  We're talking about a tax credit.  Specifically, a refundable tax credit.  There is no difference between a refundable tax credit and a subsidy.

339 Rush said it first. bye bye nomination.

Romney is DONE.

340 There's only a "free rider" problem because the system offers free rides.  Actually, "offers" is the wrong word.  "Provides under threat of fines and/or prison time if they don't provide" is how it actually works.

341 322 BTW, not sure if you're still on this thread, but I apologize to you rockmom. A confluence of a bad cold, a whiny 2-year old, and moving stuff around the basement had me in a testy mood there.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at December 28, 2011 02:59 PM (AcrIN)

No apology necessary!  It's a hot subject and I know people have strong opinions.  And I have a thick skin, or else I wouldn't be here.  Hope you feel better!

342 I wish the Republican Party elites would tell me why I'm supposed to vote for Mitt Romney. I mean, I already get the message that I'm supposed to vote for Mitt Romney, I just want to know why.

And "because he's not Barack Obama" isn't good enough. Lots of people are not Barack Obama.

343 The conservative "solution" should be to ruthlessly gut the federal government so that no health care is being managed by bureaucrats thousands of miles away. Let states, or better yet, counties or cities, deal with issues like that if they want to, in any way they want. They have the power to tax too.

Posted by: slatz at December 28, 2011 03:13 PM (nGo5W)

That would sure be interesting, wouldn't it?  How long would the people of Illinois stand being butt-raped by Chicago if the state was paying for everything?  The worst thing about federal subsidies for anything is that they remove the true cost from the average taxpayer.

344 The individual mandate has nothing in common with required auto insurance.  You are required be covered for damage you may cause to other people and their property with your car.   The auto equivalant of the ind mandate would be a mandatory "policy" that costs $950 per month to cover the $200 in gas, oil and repairs to your car.  This way politically connected trucking companies and poor people could only pay $950 and $0 per month for their $2,500 and $500 monthly expenses.  Nothing conservative about that. 

345 And the idea that people without insurance are a burden to taxpayers is absolute BS.  I have catastrophic only and have consumed exactly $0 worth of healthcare in the last dozen years.  Most of us non uninsured pay with cash or don't use healthcare at all.

346

>> Sounds good, but frankly that shouldn't be the federal government's business.

 

I agree and I'm not advocating it, I merely mention it as an actual concrete example of conservative leadership that I want in our candidate.  Loser Pays was a terrific accomplishment here and we'll benefit from it.

Apply same principles to federal regs that are similarly strangling business (EPA, DoE) etc. etc.

347 Rush said it first. bye bye nomination.

Romney is DONE.

Posted by: Blacksmith8✡ at December 28, 2011 03:35 PM (Q1qy3)

Meanwhile, Team Romney, not realizing it's done and knowing all along its candidate could never hope to secure the conservative base, proceeds to keep conservative votes scattered among Perry, Gingrich, Bachmann, and Santorum. Ron Paul voters are locked in, going nowhere, highly unlikely to gravitate to a more electable Not Romney candidate. Ron Paul is also unlikely to damage the GOP nominee in the general election by doing a Ross Perot-like third party split since if Paul does break from the GOP, he skewers his son Rand's political career.

If Ron Paul didn't exist, Team Romney would've created him in one of its secret Illuminati laboratories.

348

#342 Go to Powerline and check out John Hinderaker's endorsement of Romney.  It's linked at HotAir. 

349 #344 I agree, and used that exact analogy many times in arguing about the Obamacare mandate.  Car insurance covers only catastrophic damage and bodily injury, it doesn't pay for gas or routine maintenance.  You should value your own freaking body enough to pay for its routine maintenance, and insure only against serious injury or illness.  You also get good driver discounts for car insurance, but health insurers are not allowed to risk-rate, which is ridiculous. 

350

looks like the choice is between the guy who implemented Romneycare and defends it to the death, and the guy who endorsed Romneycare but changed his mind after he saw it in action.

Tough choice, huh?

351 Ace, I  love you but you're kinda a dipshit.  There is a mandate right now- you show up at my clinic, I have to treat you.  Guess who's maandated  to pay for it? Me.  So you're ok with the current mandate?  Hey, howzabout folks pay for their own care for a change?  Romney wanted to allow bond posting for those who wanted to not be insured- got overriden 2x.  No

352 M-m-m-m, doesn't that Mittens go down SMOOTH! You might just as well bend over and grease-up, cause you, ACE, have already told EVERYONE, including the commies in the GOP establishment, that you WILL vote for Bishop Romney when the Dead Elephant Party rams him up where the sun don't shine. Unless a whole lot of people grow a large set brass ones in double-quick time we ARE going to continue Obamunism under the man with magic undies.

353 Ace: "I ask again of Romney supporters: What argument do you suggest we bring into 2012 on ObamaCare, when Romney keeps calling the individual mandate "fundamentally conservative"?" I'm self-disqualified from being a Romney supporter (being of the view that Perry is the only proven conservative among this bunch), but I think the argument could be made that Romney could IMPROVE ObomneyCare by 1. making it truly universal, applying to every indolent hobo, neighborhood pusher & streetcorner ho (like in Yerp & Canuckistan!), which would 2. get rid of the middle-man insurance companies completely, leading to 3. &!*, and then 4. PROFIT!

354 DRAFT SOMEBODY, or we are fukt.

355 We sure  dodged a bullet with that Palin chick.

356 We sure  dodged a bullet with that Palin chick.

Posted by: RushBabe at December 28, 2011 07:48 PM (tQHzJ)

Yeah, she sure would suck sooo much more than the shit weazels that are running.

We. are. fucking. boned.

357 This info is a terrific read. Thanks for the info.I am looking forward for more updates.

358 Every time I get close to acceptIng that this guy is going to be the nominee and I am going to have to hope for the best and vote for him he says something stupid like this. Do we benefit by getting rid of Oblahblah and getting another big government Republican? I don't want a tax-collector for the welfare state. How is it accepting personal reponsibility when you embrace socialized medicine? Screw all of these clowns. Obama, Romney what's the difference? At least I know Obama is out to screw up the country. If I vote for Romney, he'll betray me and screw the country.

359
Ace,

At one point I too was extremely concerned about Romney being the nominee for this very reason. Obamacare is almost on par with the crappy economy as far as political weapons which can be used to defeat Obama. I hated the idea of having Romney as the nominee because he had installed a version of Obamacare while he was Governor of Massachusetts. My fear was that this would basically take the radioactive Obamacare off the table as an issue in the general election. How could Romney attack the president for implementing the same basic thing in the State he was in charge of governing?!
But I haven't looked at it that way in a long time. And there are several reasons for this.

First of all, aside from the individual mandate, the two programs have almost nothing in common. However, the individual mandate is of course the most hated part of Obamacare. Moreover the individual mandate is an absolute necessity in making Obamacare as a whole even possible - because it is provides the funding that is the lifeblood of that monstrous program. So Romneycare having this core, hated thing in common with Obamacare causes us to want to dismiss Mitt Romney out of hand. - Especially because he won't now disown the damn thing.
Except that Romney is completely and utterly correct about the following the key difference. The State of Massachusetts legislating an individual mandate within itself is wholly constitutional, to whereas the Federal Government legislating an individual mandate upon the entire nation is wholly unconstitutional. The serious difference of constitutionality should not be glossed over as though it were an obscure technicality, and Mitt has consistently, intelligently, and eloquently elucidated this difference in a way that is easy to understand.

Quite simply, it is a fallacious error of equivocation to equate the Massachusetts individual mandate as being the same thing as the Federal individual mandate. They are NOT the same thing. They share the identical name-tag "individual mandate" but they differ significantly in meaning. We can know this to certainty because one is constitutionally permissible and the other is utterly unconstitutional. 

Also, Romney is correct that by a wide margin the citizens of Massachusetts wanted the Health Care program they got; to whereas (also by a wide margin) the citizens of the United States did not (and do not) want Obama's Health Care program.

When Romney starts strafing the president over Obamacare in stump speeches, TV ads, and the presidential debates, Barrack Obama will predictably retort something to the effect: "Oh, you want to repeal the very same thing you put in place in Massachusetts."
But in Iowa's December 10th debate, Romney has given us a preview of how he will go after Obama regarding Obamacare:
"I didn't raise taxes. You did. I didn't cut Medicare. You did. I provided insurance for the 8% of Bay State citizens who didn't have insurance, and you changed the insurance coverage of every American while failing to cover every American."  That's just for openers.

Ironically, this kind of devastating counterattack is not available to any other potential GOP nominee. Based on his concrete experience of legislating a State wide health care plan, Romney is uniquely positioned to sharply contrast against and attack Obamacare.

And consider this basic strategic dynamic in Romney versus Obama battling over the individual mandate. Barrack Obama can't to turn to the American public and say "Don't believe him folks! He'll never issue an executive order giving waiver from the individual mandate to any State that wants it ." Oh really, Mr. President? But you will? For Obama to attack Romney's promise to grant waiver from the individual mandate (as well as seek over all repeal), Obama would have to make these measures sound like good things that ought to happen but that Romney can't be trusted to deliver on!! And worse, since it's very easy for presidents to deliver on fulfilling executive orders (they don't require Congress's participation), Romney is not going to have a whole lot of trouble making a convincing case that he will in fact do what he says he'll do. The more Obama insists that Romney won't do it, the more it sounds like something that ought to be done, and the more Romney gets to detail the compelling reasons (which we've all seen that Romney is excellent at doing) as to why it must be done and why he'll do it.
At no point will it make sense for Obama to say, "No he won't, I will!" Obama is just going to want to change the topic as quickly as possible. "Wolf, let's talk about something the American people really care about. Why don't we ask the Governor why he wasn't able to get Bin Laden and I was. Now there's a topic for discussion."

Obama isn't going to want to debate Obamacare with any GOP nominee. But least of all with Romney because Mitt can speak with sharply contrasting authority on the subject.

360
All that said, I will absolutely vote for Barrack Obama against Mitt Romney if Romney begins to advocate for any kind of National Sales Tax or VAT.

There is no way that Obama could push such a thing through a Republican House or even a closely divided Senate. Four more years of Obama will suck to be sure because we won't get the kind of reforms that might be sufficient to allow our economy to take off again. But aside from Supreme Court nominees, (which are seriously important) Obama won't be able to do anymore real damage to the nation. He'll be an automatic second-term-lame-duck president with no mandate and no Democratic majority. He'll mostly just be biding his time and partying it up with Michelle on vacations - like he has been for the last two years. 

But if Mitt Romney (or any Republican) were to adopt a National Sales Tax into his platform and then get elected, we would very likely end up with a bipartisan effort backed up by a presidential mandate to implement a brand new and unprecedented Tax Weapon against the American people. It is why I would have voted for Obama over Cain.

I will vote against it no matter what.

361

www.genset-china.com

happy  everyday

362 We do not want obama in office any more but if romney is our only choice for the republican party then we have no choice but to vote for obama.