1 FIRST!

2 Jenny McCarthy on the talk show circuit is more powerful than the truth.We are so fucked.

3 How was shaken baby syndrome linked to vaccines? These people were idiots even before their junk science was exposed.

4 But it was on the intrumnat.  It must be true.

5 Polio? Really?

Horseshit.

6 I hate to have to break this to you but the MMS vaccine/autism link was debunked years ago. It's just made the news again lately.

7 Schools used to require vacines prior to registration.  Is that still in effect?

8 Down with vaccines!Up with a Third World rate of infant mortality!!

9 There are still JFK conspiracy nuts out there. too. It can take a very long time for idiotic ideas and falsehoods to fade away. Maybe a huge lawsuit will bring this out into the open.

10 Well, this is why we're seeing outbreaks of measles and rubella in such smart, cosmopolitan cities as San Fran and NYC.

11 7 The point is it is still widely believed even though it was debunked as you say,than more strenuously debunked again recently.

12 It was declared a fraud a few weeks ago and a few months ago and a few years ago.  Once it's out there, it ain't going back.

13 Fluoride!

14 Where did they get a connection between vaccines and SIDS, ADD, allergies & asthma, and diabetes?

15 Well, this is why we're seeing outbreaks of measles and rubella in such smart, cosmopolitan cities as San Fran and NYC.

Whooping cough is killing kids here in LA. They're urging adults via PSAs to get the vaccine.

But then I also think demographics are a large part of the problem...

16 Why is there so much more autism now?

17 The other thing is, make for damn sure that any schools you send your kids to require proof of vaccination. I hate to say it, but that's one form of junk science that will have a body count. The problem is, I'll probably be treating the patients...

18 Oh and nary a word in the media about kids dying from whooping cough, either.

19 6 Schools used to require vacines prior to registration.  Is that still in effect?

Meningitis is required for colleges and universities.

20 3-I agree I am not seeing the link between giving a child an injection, and shaken baby syndrome. Yet most people looking at that poster will believe that it is a real consequence of MMR and DPT vaccines. I keep telling my kids that 50% of the population has an IQ below 100. And they can vote, too.

21 I'll bet Jenny McCarthy is a Truther.

22 Yes, I know the science was pretty much a fraud years ago but it wasn't until a month ago that it was out and out called a fraud by the MSM.

23 So Andy Dick was lying when he told me a motor oil enema would cure my restless leg syndrome?

24 Vaccine-ists, Warmists, Stalinists, they all go to their graves knowing they were right.

25 16 Why is there so much more autism now?

Posted by: USS Diversity at January 22, 2011 10:16 PM (DLxD/)

The definitions have changed over the years to include more symptoms and degrees of it.

26 Why is there so much more autism now?

My personal opinion (and I am in no way claiming to be a doctor) there are two reasons:

1) Greater awareness of autism

2) Diagnosing every damn thing as autism, even if it isn't autism and some kids just don't hit the milestones they're allegedly supposed to hit when they're supposed to. Some kids are a little slower/faster than others. I think a lot of people panic and automatically start thinking it's something worse than it is.

27 25 26 This.

28 So Andy Dick was lying when he told me a motor oil enema would cure my restless leg syndrome? Posted by: Ben at January 22, 2011 10:17 PM (DKV43) It wasn't lying-lying.

29 6- Florida is very strict about having vaccinations before entering school. No blue sheet with the list of all vaccines since birth, no kid in the classroom.

30 6 Schools used to require vacines prior to registration.  Is that still in effect?

Posted by: Ohio Dan at January 22, 2011 10:12 PM (EH4cc)

Around here(Michigan) I think its possible to send your child to school without vaccinations, a form must be signed(not sure what good it does, so you cant sue?) and also have to state reason why(religion, Jenny Mcarthy.  etc) 

31 I think there's another thing at play here.  I have several friends who are trying to get pregnant right now and it's utterly shocking to me to hear them talk about all the things they're doing/eating/not eating on and on in an attempt to eliminate any chance that there will be anything wrong with the baby.  I think that much of the underlying psychological impulse here is that if there's something wrong with your child, well, you did something that caused it.  It's an attempt to ignore the fact that sometimes bad shit just happens. 

As far as why there's more autism now, I think that has a lot to do with giving everything a medical diagnosis.  A child is no longer just weird, oh no, the child must have some type of syndrome or disorder or whatever. 

32 ^{16 Why is there so much more autism now?}

^{Posted by: USS Diversity at January 22, 2011 10:16 PM (DLxD/)}

Because it's the disease of the month. Now everybody has it, one way or another. Mild social ineptitude is now called Aspergers, kids who don't cry are called some other form, and most of it is crap. Just like most boys fall into some category of ADD, most kids fall into one or another category of autism at some point in their development. Flavor of the week, without any scientific basis.

33 22 Yes, I know the science was pretty much a fraud years ago but it wasn't until a month ago that it was out and out called a fraud by the MSM.

While its good that this deliberate fraud has finally been exposed in the MFM, there are many others that have remained unchallenged (the global warming fraud notwithstanding): the SARS hype, the avian flu hype...

Not to mention San Fran is the first city to put warning labels on cell phones even though the cell-phone/brain cancer link is complete bunk. 

34 31 People,in their infinite arrogance,think they can control everything.

35 Darwin and the Goddess Irony are tag-teaming this one.

36 My Mom must not have loved me...or loved me too much.  I know I didn't get the vaccine to prevent Death.

37 Shaken Baby Syndrome is caused by vaccines? That's funny. I thought it was caused by shaking babies. Our son is mildly autistic. It never occured to me to blame somebody for that unfortunate fact. Truth be told, I can see some of his tendencies in myself and my mom. It's obvious to me autism is inherite - sometimes hardly noticable, sometimes catastrophic. God knows why, but certainly not the idiots that created that poster.

38 Shaken baby syndrome - my guess is that they're basing this on an assumption that vaccines might give a baby colicky symptoms, and some evil adult in their life shaking them because of the crying.  Pretty tenuous to be number one on their list, although I imagine it's number one because it makes their list a neat-o graphical element.  That's about how smart they are.

39 #31  A child is no longer just weird, oh no, the child must have some type of syndrome or disorder or whatever.

And there are pills readily available for any perceived ill.  Your boy is a bit overactive?  No problem, hop them up on Ritalin. 

40 ^{36 My Mom must not have loved me...or loved me too much.  I know I didn't get the vaccine to prevent Death.}

^{Posted by: NC Ref at January 22, 2011 10:23 PM (/izg2)}

Well, apparently you aren't dead yet, so at least she was right about THAT.

41 If the little fuckers that run up and down our neighborhood screaming constantly are any indication, yeah, autism is at epidemic levels.

42 Oh oh oh and I have a HUGE HUGE problem with the whole thing where kids won't get vaccinated for stuff that will actually kill them but Texas was (still may be I don't remember) requiring girls to get the HPV vaccine even though the vaccine wasn't actually tested on teens and pre-teens and that vaccine has actual known adverse effects including death.  *alexstomp*

43 Well, apparently you aren't dead yet, so at least she was right about THAT.


So far anyway.

44

Vaccine rates have gone down and autism rates have continued to go up.

Back when they were saying that it was the thimerisol in the vaccines, they took it out and autism rates continued to go up.

Like Moki says, 50% of the population has IQs under 100.

45 42 Don't you want them to be "one less"?

46

Posted by: CDR M on Battlewatch at January 22, 2011 10:17 PM (Mv/2X)

Plus adding things to the autism list that used to be kind of on their own ex- Asperger Syndrome, Rett Syndrome,CDD

47 God, talk about having blood on their hands... this is ridiculous.

48 It's an attempt to ignore the fact that sometimes bad shit just happens.

I have a friend who got polio as a kid from the polio vaccine so he has a permanent limp and a few health problems. He hasn't let that interfere with pretty much anything except what he can't actually physically do (like running), which is very little. I don't think he's anti-vaccine - he just chalks it up to shit happens.

49 42-Amen sister. I think that got stomped down, but when we were getting shots for our kids here in FL, the nurse asked my 15 yr old daughter if she wanted the HPV vaccine. She politely declined, and the nurse asked me if I wanted her to have it. I was not so polite. Strangely, that nurse is no longer at our doctor's office.

50 Nearly Half Of Americans Still Believe Vaccine Autism Link

Yeah man...we won! Truth OUT!

51 42 Oh oh oh and I have a HUGE HUGE problem with the whole thing where kids won't get vaccinated for stuff that will actually kill them but Texas was (still may be I don't remember) requiring girls to get the HPV vaccine even though the vaccine wasn't actually tested on teens and pre-teens and that vaccine has actual known adverse effects including death.  *alexstomp*

Merck needs a new cash cow ever since their Vioxx fiasco.  Convincing states to make Gardasil vaccination (for a completely preventable disease) mandatory for 11 and 12-year old girls will go a long way to recouping their losses from Vioxx.

52

I agree with all you guys about all this autism. I just wanted to see if it was just me.

2010: Autistic

1970: Weird

This is general, though..I know a lady with a real hardcore autistic kid.

53 @32: I wish it was quite so easy to dismiss, ten. Our kid is now 22. He was diagnosed when he was 6. When all the other kids line up in a line and stand at attention, and yours is 10 feet in front of them, completely oblivious as he violently shakes an imaginary object, you kind of get the feeling something is not quite right.

54 The DDT ban is the classic example of junk science killing MILLIONS.

Rachael Carson and 'Silent Spring' was the precursor to the anti-vaccine idiocy.

55 I'm utterly serious about this: how come there hasn't been some kind of devastating class-action suit against Jenny McCarthy et al? Their actions have resulted in illness, injury and death. Why hasn't some aspiring John Edwards tried to clean out their bank accounts?

56 This nation needs something like the Penn & Teller "Bullshit" show, but it needs to be some sort of rapid reaction force that puts out bullshit fires before they spread and kill people. An AI could help with this.

57 Our son is mildly autistic. It never occured to me to blame somebody for that unfortunate fact. Truth be told, I can see some of his tendencies in myself and my mom. It's obvious to me autism is inherite - sometimes hardly noticable, sometimes catastrophic.

There's certainly a genetic component.  Until my son was diagnosed with autism, I'd never realized the traits of Asperger's that I have.

58 Superstitious idiots. We're going backwards.

59 Posted by: moki at January 22, 2011 10:29 PM (dZmFh)

My doc asked me when I was 23 or so if I wanted the vaccine. I said I wanted to wait. She swore up and down it was safe and that my insurance would cover it. I still said no. She never brought it up again.

60 55 The left never seems to eat it's own.

61 An AI could help with this.
Posted by: eman at January 22, 2011 10:30 PM

What's an AI?

62

Aren't there outbreaks of  some not so nice stuff in Cali due to unvaccinated illegals - or braindead americans not getting their children vaccinated?

63 Frustrating to say the least.

Most people who fervently believe this bullshit are either: (1) gullible parents desperate to do anything to help their child or (2) scumbags preying on those in category (1) for fame and/or fortune. Jenny McCarthy has a boob in each camp.

64 Aren't there outbreaks of  some not so nice stuff in Cali due to unvaccinated illegals - or braindead americans not getting their children vaccinated?

Would you like a list?

TB (and MRSA TB)
MRSA Staph
Whooping cough

I'm sure there are more, but those three are off the top of my head.

65 59-Rum, you are a wise woman. And yes, I complained to the doctor about the nurse badgering us about the vaccine. It's one thing to ask, another thing to keep hammering the topic. My daughter was embarrassed and angry. Nobody needs that.

66 I'm utterly serious about this: how come there hasn't been some kind of devastating class-action suit against Jenny McCarthy et al? Their actions have resulted in illness, injury and death. Why hasn't some aspiring John Edwards tried to clean out their bank accounts?

Because "stupid lies" is a category of free speech.

67 14 Where did they get a connection between vaccines and SIDS, ADD, allergies & asthma, and diabetes?

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at January 22, 2011 10:15 PM (sZ+lP)

Why that's simple.  Allow me to demonstrate.  Did you know that 100% of the people that get cancer breathe in oxygen everday?  Oxygen gives you cancer.

68 Between the anti-vaccine crowd and the murdering abortionist Gosnell I'm surprised any child survives to their first birthday.

69 Jenny McCarthy has a boob in each camp.

Posted by: Andy at January 22, 2011 10:34 PM (veZ9n)

Such a struggle, as they are such nice boobs...so I've heard

70

The left never seems to eat it's own.

They just throw them under the bus.

71 64-MRSA TB??? Talk about a plague from hell-TB was rampant in Poland-hence the TB vaccine they had there. It apparently didn't work well, and if you came to the US, would give false (or maybe not so false) positives for the US TB test.

72 Posted by: moki at January 22, 2011 10:35 PM (dZmFh)

I'm all for most vaccines, but some I want tested for a few years before I try them. Science is great, but I don't want to be the guinea pig.

73 @69: I thought they tasted a bit salty.

74 I really jumped on a relatives shit over Xmas over this - I should call an apologize, she is probably still crying.  Maybe at Easter

75 MRSA TB??? Talk about a plague from hell

It's almost never in the news, but occasionally stories will pop up of people here who contract TB and its the drug resistant kind. It's scary as hell.

76 There must be a link.  We are told so by no less a scientific authority than 1993's playmate of the year.

77 AI = Artificial Intelligence

78 I'm sure there are more, but those three are off the top of my head.

Posted by: Rum, Goddess of Doom at January 22, 2011 10:35 PM (YxBuk)

Lovely, I listened to a recording of a baby with whooping cough...and as a parent of a newborn, simply awful to listen to

79 CCzech I did not mean to make light of it, although in retrospect it looks like I wrote it that way. I do see kids diagnosed with autism that I just don't think really fit the true definition of the original word.

80 @76: but what does the community organizer say?

81 It apparently didn't work well, and if you came to the US, would give false (or maybe not so false) positives for the US TB test.

Some people who get the BCG vaccine have a positive skin test, others don't.  My Chinese lab-mate got the BCG vaccine in China and she's always come up positive (once you're positive, you're always positive), so they don't bother doing the skin test on her anymore. 

82 Oh, the diagnosis rate is about to go up again. The DSM-V does away with "Asperger's Syndrome" and "PDD-NOS" as official diagnoses and lumps them together with classic autism.

83 79 CCzech I did not mean to make light of it, although in retrospect it looks like I wrote it that way. I do see kids diagnosed with autism that I just don't think really fit the true definition of the original word.

Posted by: USS Diversity at January 22, 2011 10:40 PM (DLxD/)

Well my favorite anecdote about this is a personal one.  TV commercial talking about autism.  In the span of 2 days I saw the same commercial but they had increased the number of kids they say are diagnosed with autism, by a good chunk.  One day they were saying something like "1 in 64 kids are born with autism." The next time I saw it they had changed it to let's say "1 in 48"

84 So, people are taking medical advice from a half wit actress who is mainly famous for being photographed sitting on a toilet. This is almost as bad as listening to that idiot Tom Cruise because he has "read some books".

85 @79: No problem, USS. I sometimes wonder if overdiagnosis isn't an issue, too. I once heard two normal kids comparing diagnoses: "I'm OCD and ADHD!" Just unreal. If you met our kid today you might not think anything of it - but he is where he is today (in college) due to years of psychological and school special ed intervention. Not to mention countless nights we stayed up late with him trying to get him to do homework.

86 83 Yeah,and one out of two Americans have a preexisting condition.

87 80 - Since he's also a super genius he would doubtlessly confirm her peer-reviewed findings.

88

Jenny McCarthy in Maxim "Let's put it this way..I like it all."

This is why Jim Carrey looks so washed out.

89 ^{53 @32: I wish it was quite so easy to dismiss, ten. Our kid is now 22. He was diagnosed when he was 6. When all the other kids line up in a line and stand at attention, and yours is 10 feet in front of them, completely oblivious as he violently shakes an imaginary object, you kind of get the feeling something is not quite right.}

^{Posted by: CoolCzech at January 22, 2011 10:29 PM (tJjm/)}

My point was not that autism is not a disease, my point is that normal behavioral issues are not autism. What I dismiss is the over-diagnoses and over-medication and over-hype. When someone really does have the disorder, odds are not so good that they will get proper attention because so many false cases are clogging the system, and most false cases eventually go away on their own.

90 @82: autism, really, is a spectrum of behaviors: it ranges from high-end functioning (typically, "pervadive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified" like our kid exhibits - PDD- NOS) to the classic sit in a closet spinning a top sort of severe disorder. Asberger's Syndrome is on the spectrum, but too often is used as a synonim for autism in general. A true asberger's victim will engage in highly formalized speech about one subject, and will talk obsessively about it. If you try to change topics, he'll resist or simply walk away.

91 Whooping cough has made a come back across the country.  The CDC has reported the most cases in over 50 years.  NowIi had all the childhood illnesses, being old enough to have pre-dated most imunizations.  I don't really remember much about  Mumps or Measles, and the only thing I remember about Chicken Pox is the itching.  But Whooping Cough I do remember, it was  terrible.  I missed 8 weeks of school.  I would cough so long and so hard I would vomit.   It got so bad I didn't want to eat or drink anything. One coughing spell was so bad I cracked a rib.  But I was lucky, I survived.  Our neighbors had four children,  the two youngest, a baby and a toddler died. 

92 The autism rates went screaming up because the Aspergers diagnoses were added in.  His research, from the 40s, was rediscovered in the 90s.  Prior to that, they really just counted the nonverbal/severely disabled.  Now, we have a spectrum disorder that covers maybe 1 percent of the population.

This reminds me, I need a tetanus booster soon.

93 When someone really does have the disorder, odds are not so good that they will get proper attention because so many false cases are clogging the system, and most false cases eventually go away on their own.

This. 

94 81- yes, that happened to some families who got the vaccines. Do you know how effective the vaccine is, Kratos? We were always told not to take it, but since several kids came down with TB at the school, I've wondered if it were better to have the vaccine. And why don't we use it here in the US?

95 y'all can talk all the shit u want, but you damn well better hope that someday your kid is not injured by a vaccine, like thousands of kids through the years. I shall not defend wakefield, who is the worst kind of fraud, but riddle me this -- WHY did the drug companies drop a bunch of the garbage chemicals in the vaccines?

96 The false positive TB reading is why we are slowly moving towards the Quantiferon blood test.  It's more expensive but accurate.  It is now mandatory for refugees entering SD County.

97 I remember my mom exposing my sister to my friend's brother when he had chicken pox so she would get it. I guess parents would never ever do that nowadays.

98 ^{WHY did the drug companies drop a bunch of the garbage chemicals in the vaccines?}

^{Posted by: Buckaroo at January 22, 2011 11:00 PM (uIWTl)}

How about because they found cheaper and better ways of doing it? Honestly, you can make silly arguments about crossing the street, too, but if your kid gets polio or whooping cough, you are really gonna wish you had gotten the vaccine.

99 #95 WHY did the drug companies drop a bunch of the garbage chemicals in the vaccines?

WTF are you talking about?  Is that a reference to thermosal?  Dude, its a preservative, so that the vaccines will last longer!

There aren't many companies that make vaccines, thanks to vultures like Edwards.  Remember when we had a shortage of flu vaccine a few years ago, because our British supplier had to shut down for a few weeks?

100 >> WHY did the drug companies drop a bunch of the garbage chemicals in the vaccines?

Huh? Do you mean why did they remove Thimerosal?

They did it at the behest of anti-vaccine zealots who now use the fact that the vaccine manufacturers caved into their junk science-based demands as PROOF!!11!!1 that it caused a problem. Circular logic at best.

101 @ 98 or how about they were FUCKING HARMFUL?!?! there's ways to properly vaccinate -- stuffing 30 shots into kids in the first 24 months is NOT it ... /grrrrrrr

102 I call strawman argument. I suggest that people spend some time looking for the best arguments those who do not vaccinate make and try to understand them before jumping to conclusions about them. Are you sure the Wakefield paper attempted to draw a link between autism and MMR vaccine? From what I've read, it was about a link between the MMR and a specific bowel problem common among autistic children. The media has confused the issue. A friend who has read the study (and doesn't vaccinate) tells me that even without the controversy, if you actually read the Wakefield paper, it's apparent that the study was too small to be definitive anyway. So anyone who was basing their vaccination decision on the Wakefield paper wasn't really doing their homework in the first place, and those who weren't aren't going to be greatly affected by its withdrawal. as a point of fact, I know a lot of non-vaccinators, and not one of them, not *one* has ever cited the Wakefield paper, and most of them have *never* included a possible autism link as a part of their reasons for not vaccinating in explaining their reasons to me. If you never relied on the Wakefield paper in making a decision not to vaccinate in the first place, naturally, the withdrawal of that paper would not have any bearing on your decision nor would it be a reason to change your mind.

103 The other chemicals in vaccines?  What, like thimerosal?  That's an antibiotic that was also used in contact lens supplies and topical anti-infectives.

I will admit to not understanding the current school requirements.  What do little kids need the Hep B for?  When I was in high school, the only students who needed it were volunteering in hospitals.

104 >> there's ways to properly vaccinate -- stuffing 30 shots into kids in the first 24 months is NOT it ...

So now you're an expert on the vaccine schedule, too.

Which is it: The MMR? Thimerosal? "Too Many, Too Soon"?

You fucking people are all over the map on this. No wonder no one believes you.

105 are we talking about SOCIALIZED medicine here  for the poor kids? why should I have to pay for their shots

106 100 >> WHY did the drug companies drop a bunch of the garbage chemicals in the vaccines?

My Lord you are dense.  Apparently you aren't old enough to remember when mothers wouldn't let their kids go to the public pools in the summer because of the fear of polio outbreaks.  The old iron lung people had to be put in.  I guess Jonas Salk did the world a big disservice.

Hmmm, maybe I can blame my MS on vaccines too.  That would be convenient. 

107 104 who knows because anyone who questions the "dogma" is name called like you just did!! thimerosal is MERCURY. is that a good thing to stick in an infants body?! again, i sure as hell hope its not your kid who comes home from getting his shots and stops talking ...

108 103-My guess is that as there are more illegal immigrant kids attending school, there is more incidence of diseases like Hep A and B, so you vaccinate against it.

109 Where did you get your medical degree Buckaroo?

Where did you get board certification in pediatrics?

Can we have a copy of your CV too?

110 Buckaroo: Are you ten years old? You're worried about name calling while spouting obvious drivel. You're lucky we don't have a vaccine to wipe out stupid people.

111 And john Ryan brings the 'tard.

112 106 fuck.off. did i SAY no one should get the polio vaccine? don't put words in my mouth asshole ...

113 Compare the 1983 pediatric vaccine schedule to the current 2010 schedule:
Source: CDC

http://tinyurl.com/4bhsgaq

1983:
18 vaccines by age 2
22 vaccines by age 5
24 vaccines by age 18
four at once (four times)
three at once (two times)

2010:
37 vaccines by age 2
48 vaccines by age 5
71 vaccines by age 18
nine at once (three times)
eight at once (two times)
seven at once (three times)

FACT: Administering multiple doses of vaccines simultaneously has never been shown to be safe.  The studies don't exist, they have never been done.

FACT: Vaccines are not harmless, like any medical procedure or drug, they entail certain risks.  Vaccine serious adverse reactions are relatively common (typically ~1% of subjects in tests).  There is an administrative court set up in the US to compensate those injured by vaccines

http://tinyurl.com/2tpq9h

FACT: Vaccine manufacturers are indemnified from liability by the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986.  If you are harmed by a vaccine, you can not sue the manufacturer if the vaccine is on the CDC schedule (the 71 doses shown above).

FACT: The CDC schedule has exploded (as shown above) since the manufacturers were indemnified from liability.  There is no legal mechanism to ensure the product is safe, you can't sue them if injured.

Many of us would like our children to follow a schedule comparable to what we received (something like the 1983 schedule).  That doesn't make us anti-vaccine nuts, it simply means we aren't willing to use our kids as test subjects for the vaccine manufacturers. 

To those defending the current schedule, please explain why kids need two to three times as many vaccines as we did.  Please point me to the statistics that demonstrate today's children are healthier than those of 25 years ago.

114 >> who knows because anyone who questions the "dogma" is name called like you just did!!

No. Not anyone.

Just you.

You're a fucking idiot.

115 109 & 110 you both can just e.s.a.d

116 I've heard that women worry that the "blame the mother" aspect comes in regards to autistic children.... but I also wonder if there's the whole "popping out a dud" factor.  I've noticed w/ facebook a lot of people I knew in HS with kids have their kids as their photo as if children are their crowning achievement (IMO, as a single male, to me this is pathetic... breeding doesn't require much more than having sex and making sure you don't die).  What happens when you start your crowning achievement and it comes up damaged?  Not only can you not show off your pride and joy and symbol of success but you are burdened with weird looks from others and you're pegged with a burden which is much more difficult with far fewer rewards depending upon the child's placement on the autism disorders and spectra.  Wouldn't you do anything in your power to avoid that kind of an albatross?  Especially if that child is your social validator?

Couple that with our knowledge (science, technical, how the world works) is rarely any more than the tattered threads of things that have appeared to work to others.  I mean, they sell bracelets over the TV which let you wrestle gators.  As much as we act like we've achieved a higher state of rationalism by our own unique being I think we need to reminded to the existence of feral humans and in that it shows that our grasp on high knowledge is tenuous.  Further, information is spread by those who we trust.  Sadly, we are more apt, by biological nature, an attractive popular woman... similarly the same goes for attractive looking confident men.  Its only in checking things against absolutes that we are able to keep ourselves from traps... but the world is too complicated to check everything.  Much of what we know is cultural and as such it can stand to be wrong often enough.

I mean, as an analog... how many of us are for nuclear power?  Now, how many of us have that nagging fear of the nuclear power plant and wouldn't dare want to live near one?  We have scientists of that field assure us that nuclear power is rather safe... but we cling to our irrational nightmares because they are in the protection mechanisms of humans.  Look how malleable truth is... we often trust that people have brought witness to things they did not see without a second question or thought... but we trusted it.  So, why should it be any different when it comes to what harms us?

Of course, I'm just a high functioning aspie and credentialed egghead... what do I know.

117 again, i sure as hell hope its not your kid who comes home from getting his shots and stops talking ...

I have an autistic son. Fuck you, you hysterical fuck.

118 Watch it Jeff C., you'll get insulted for asking questions! :-)

119 117 well, join the club!

120 I don't need approval from you, you vacuous twit.

121

Jeff C. ask intelligent questions. You don't Buckaroo.

 

Then you cry that we're being mean to you. WAAHHHH!!!

122 piss.off.

123 121 yet you still fail to answer his, jackass ...

124

Wahh! Waahh!

You need to work on your debating skills.

125 124 yeah, well, I'm not going to hold my breath for you to form a coherent answer to Jeff's question ...

126 Jeff C. @113. Do you have a link to a study (not one by Wakefield or one relying on his research or that of his cronies) showing that vaccines cause autism? Because that's the main point here.

No one said that vaccines were completely risk-free. What in life is?

127

Jeff didn't say vaccines were causing autism, you did.

 

Post 107

again, i sure as hell hope its not your kid who comes home from getting his shots and stops talking ...

128 The general populace is too stupid to save, or to save itself.  So be it.

129 127 1. what Jeff did point out is how vaccines today are so insanely piled on -- still waiting for that answer! 2. re: post 107, i watched.it.happen. which is why sneering asses like u piss me off so much.

130 Proof Buckaroo, proof.  That means science not bullshit made up garbage studies. Hard data, real conclusions.

How much time and funding was wasted on this crap science when it could have been going into real research for autism?  Millions upon millions wasted and in the end it was children who paid the price and died because they didn't get a vaccine.

So shut the fuck up.

131 Jeff C., the next question would be correlating autism rates between differing countries vs. immunization levels. That would be a worthwhile next step for some researcher to do.

132 To those defending the current schedule, please explain why kids need two to three times as many vaccines as we did.  Please point me to the statistics that demonstrate today's children are healthier than those of 25 years ago.

Posted by: Jeff C. at January 22, 2011 11:17 PM

The increase is due to the development of influenza, hepatitis, and  pneumonia vaccines. And immunization doesn't make you healthier, it simply gives you some protection from certain illnesses.

133 130 news flash shithead -- u can't make me ...

134 >> 2. re: post 107, i watched.it.happen. which is why sneering asses like u piss me off so much.

What year? Before or after Thimerosal was removed. Was it teh eeeevillll MMR?

Or was it because of the vaccine schedule? Because those first two wild-assed guesses about the way vaccines cause autism haven't panned out so well for you.

135 132 srsly? that's supposed to account for a 3x increase? do you work for big pharma?

136 134 before, you sniveling toad. he had other shots concurrently so no, it is not cut and dried. but to sit there on your high horse makes me wish for some serious karma to take a dump on you.

137 How do feel about trutherism?

138 news flash shithead -- u can't make me ...



What are you...twelve?

139 but to sit there on your high horse makes me wish for some serious karma to take a dump on you.

Posted by: Buckaroo at January 22, 2011 11:37 PM (uIWTl)

Go be an asshole somewhere else.

And I've got all the Moral Authority you claim, so, again, fuck you.

Geez, I can't stand these fucks that pop in out of nowhere and think they can go zero-to-dick in 0.0 seconds.

140 137 fuck.off. 138 that's a piss poor rejoinder for some old fart ...

141 139 doubly fuck off.

142 Buckaroo is Keith Olbermann.  It has to be because he is such a complete blathering idiot who gets his research info from E! television.  The only thing missing from his comments is SIR!

143 srsly? that's supposed to account for a 3x increase?


do you work for big pharma?

Posted by: Buckaroo at January 22, 2011 11:34 PM

Personally I don't care what you think.  I was replying to our drive by poster.  It's obvious you didn't look at the charts he was kind enough to link.  Oh,  and do you work for some natural cures for all ailments company? 

144 Is the juvenile cussing all you've got? Maybe your kid got fucked up by your genes and it's easier to blame vaccines instead of nature?

145 142 Er, where did i say i got my research from "e"?! u really like putting shit in people's mouths, doncha?

146 #144

I sense the village idiot gene is strong in his family tree.

147 143 no, i don't. /but thanks for asking

148 before, you sniveling toad.

he had other shots concurrently so no, it is not cut and dried. but to sit there on your high horse makes me wish for some serious karma to take a dump on you.

I suggest you take your moral authority card back to Age of Autism. I have 2 kids on the spectrum.

149 who knows because anyone who questions the "dogma" is name called like you just did!!

Posted by: Buckaroo at January 22, 2011 11:13 PM (uIWTl)

You open with "you people can talk all the shit you want" and then whine about being insulted?

Passive-aggressive much?

Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you open with an insult, then immediately descend into vulgarity and insults on top of that? Not to mention typing like a 12-year-old with a 100/day texting habit.

BTW this is an observation, not a conversation. I have no interest in conversing with passive-aggressive manipulators, even incompetent ones.

150 148 and NO part of you is the least bit questioning that all that chemical shit did not affect them?

151 What Andy said.

See, Jeff C. brings details to be discussed.  You're being a hysterical rag and simply trying to shout down everyone else.

Good luck with that.

152 Regarding a study that conclusively demonstrates a vaccine-autism link, you are right it doesn't exist.  What we do have is the anecdotes from thousands of parents that claim their children regressed into autism after vaccination.  Perhaps they all suffer from mass delusion.  The ones I know seem pretty credible.

In 1970, autism rates were 1 in 5000, today they are 1 in 90.  Of course some of that is from better diagnosis, but a 55-fold increase??  I bet everybody on this board knows a family with an autistic kid.  Where we they when we were kids?

Parent's groups groups have been calling for a study that compares the autism rates of vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated children.  The kids already exist, it is estimated 3% of US children are completely unvaccinated (usually for religious reasons).  The CDC and the rest of the medical establishment refuses to do the study.    The Amish are largely unvaccinated, and they also have virtually no autism.  Correlation isn't causation, but I think the CDC won't do the study  because they are afraid of what they will find.

153 149 that "opening" was after 80+ posts of mocking and insults, the meme was pretty well established by then. /still, ~40 posts later NOONE has yet to justify the 3x increase that was pointed out ...

154

Buckaroo: 2. re: post 107, i watched.it.happen. which is why sneering asses like u piss me off so much.

Yeah. You are an actual neurosurgeon and/or psychologist, and you did controlled tests with a normal chimp's brain and a chimp's brain where the body was given a polio vaccine. And the second chimp grew up prone to playing Dungeons & Dragons and watching Jeopardy at the assigned times.

Uh huh. You watched it happen. Srsly.

155

Jeff C., thanks for arguing the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for us all.

The Amish are an inbred community which doesn't select for math whizzes. By contrast, our modern society does have enclaves in it which select for high IQ: the Silicon Valley area comes to mind.

Autism is almost certainly genetic.

156 154 did you read the previous posts? what i saw happen was -- "comes home from getting his shots and stops talking." this has nothing to do with the polio vaccine -- not sure why people keep referencing that one. it's the several all jammed into the 16-20 months of age time period that are of the greatest concern -- because THAT is where you see kids regressing and subsequently being diagnosed with autism, pdd, etc.

157 155: I have an autistic nephew. His mother, my step-sister, showed some signs of autism as a young girl, but was never diagnosed as autistic. I have no trouble believing genetics has a large part in it.

158 "Autism is almost certainly genetic" and your basis for that [completely unproven] assertion is?!

159 152 Regarding a study that conclusively demonstrates a vaccine-autism link, you are right it doesn't exist. What we do have is the anecdotes from thousands of parents that claim their children regressed into autism after vaccination. Perhaps they all suffer from mass delusion. The ones I know seem pretty credible.

How in the world does one family's experience translate either into actual, useful data *or* a mass delusion? The individual experience can be real, trenchant, serious, and unrelated to your hypothesis.

In 1970, autism rates were 1 in 5000, today they are 1 in 90. Of course some of that is from better diagnosis, but a 55-fold increase?? I bet everybody on this board knows a family with an autistic kid. Where we they when we were kids?

Posted by: Jeff C. at January 22, 2011 11:47 PM (uZNby)

160 Jeff C, at least you make clear points without bomb throwing.  I can respect that we just have a different opinion.  Maybe you are right that the CDC doesn't want to look at the numbers but then again maybe you are wrong.  It's going to take time and funding, lots of it to find a definitive answer.

161
and your basis for that [completely unproven] assertion is?!

Charo said so.

162 Deanna - yes, it is also from Gardasil (now on the schedule for boys too!) and rotavirus and chicken pox (varicella).  Regarding being healthier, isn't that the whole point of vaccination?  You don't get a disease that will make you sick, in other words you are healthier.  Kids today are not healthier.  Autism, ADHD, allergies, asthma, peanut anaphalaxis, juvenile diabetes are all all time high rates.  These are all chronic conditions that plague our children.

Take influenza and chicken pox.  These were never considered serious illnesses in children, yet they are now on the schedule.  Why?  I had chicken pox, you probably did too.  It was no big deal and now I have lifetime immunity.  Today kids get a vaccine instead of getting chicken pox.   Unfortunately, the immunity wears off after 10 years or so.  Unless the individual gets boosters every 10 years, there is a good chance they could get chicken pox as an adult.  It is a serious disease for an adult, it isn't for a child.  It makes absolutely no sense.

163 What we do have is the anecdotes from thousands of parents that claim their children regressed into autism after vaccination.

In addition to the post hoc fallacy noted above with the Amish, I'd also point out that "evidence" is not the plural of anecdote.

Where we they when we were kids?

My theory: The more severe cases were being diagnosed with things like "childhood schizophrenia", which is rarely diagnosed today. The less severe cases ... Asperger's, et. al. just went undiagnosed.

Unfortunately, you can't go back and apply today's diagnostic criteria in the past, so this is just a guess.

164 Oh, farging hell, I HATE this editor.

To answer the second part of Jeff's statement quoted above, it's not just better but broader diagnosis. The definition itself encompasses more people, people seek treatment more often, and other conditions have joined Autism under the "umbrella." One of the most annoying things is Aspergers, which is, depending on who you ask, under- or over-diagnosed and may not even be the same spectrum.

Another problem with Aspergers is it is not only hereditary but seems to be linked to both parents' native intelligence (co-genetic trait or something), and it's only natural as we have better communications and larger population centers, people will select for the traits that Aspergers "follows" more often.

"Super-smart" couples may even start having genetic surrogate mothers to avoid the condition, having children with only one of the parents' genetic material. Maybe one each, who knows. That may not last long if we can isolate and edit the genes at some point. Unless you live in Star Trek Land where that's illegal.

165 allergies, asthma, peanut anaphalaxis

This, I think, is more of the sterile world we live than vaccines. Kids aren't allowed to play in/eat dirt anymore, there's antibacterial hand soap everywhere you turn and parents are paranoid about cleanliness. IIRC, there have been studies about this.

166 Fuck the anti-vaccine nutjobs.

167 I gave the Amish as an example of an unvacinnated community that has virtually no autism.  It is an interesting point that doesn't prove anything, but is worthy of pursuing.  I didn't say it proved a link, there could be any number of reasons for the lack of autism in their community.  

If the CDC would do the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study we would know for sure.  Parents have been asking for it for ten years.  Nothing has happened.  If they were so sure of the safety of their schedule, why don't they do the study and put this issue to bed once an for all? 

168 Kids today are not healthier.  Autism, ADHD, allergies, asthma, peanut anaphalaxis, juvenile diabetes are all all time high rates.  These are all chronic conditions that plague our children.

Posted by: Jeff C. at January 22, 2011 11:59 PM (uZNby)

1) ADHD was definitely a huge case of underdiagnosis in the past (whether or not it's over-diagnosed now).

2) We're better at finding allergies and we check now. In the past they were largely ignored unless very severe.

3) Asthma is complex and appears to be related to massive urbanization, and has myriad causes including insect dander and diesel particulates.

4) Fatal peanut allergies, before frequent detection, were simply the cause of mysterious deaths. They weren't diagnosed as allergies.

5) Juvenile diabetes is another huge topic that can't be covered here adequately, but it's massively over-diagnosed, partly due to the "medical ratchet effect," wherein the official limits of measurements like blood sugar, cholesterol, BMI, blood pressure, etc., are reduced over time and so more and more people who used to be considered healthy are now considered to have a disease.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yebbunk

Link is to the Junkfood Science Blog, by Sandy Szwarc (RN and researcher), it's long and fairly link-heavy, about the non-epidemic of childhood diabetes.

If I get started on "diabetes" I'll go all night, though.

169 @162: "Kids today are not healthier.  Autism, ADHD, allergies, asthma, peanut anaphalaxis, juvenile diabetes are all all time high rates.  These are all chronic conditions that plague our children."

Of course, kids today rarely play outside as much as other generations, are far more sedentary, eat a much higher-fat diet, etc.  None of that would account for anything though, right?

170 When you say "juvenile" do you mean type 1 cases or juveniles with type 2? My son is type 1, I can't imagine how they could accidentally diagnose it.

171 170 posts and nobody has mentioned high fructose corn syrup.

172 170 When you say "juvenile" do you mean type 1 cases or juveniles with type 2? My son is type 1, I can't imagine how they could accidentally diagnose it.

Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at January 23, 2011 12:20 AM (C6OjH)

Most of the people who use that term refer to "type 2," which is not specific enough to be useful. They used to call it "adult onset."

The categories are in constant flux at this point as the community refuses to accept that the condition is a symptom, not a disease, but that's verging off-topic.

They're both more genetic than not, but don't believe me, I'm just an internet commenter.

173 171 170 posts and nobody has mentioned high fructose corn syrup.

Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at January 23, 2011 12:21 AM (C6OjH)

Oh, shit, bye.

174 Dr. Banzai! Dr. Banzai!! You overthruster - it's misfiring!

175 You guys all bring up good points, the problem is we just don't know.  Anecdotes aren't evidence, but they aren't meaningless either.  That is why so many parents are pushing for the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study.  I'm not an anti-vaccine nut, but I am anti-schedule.  My kids got many of the vaccines, but we don't blindly follow the schedule.  Here is what we do:

1) No Hepatitis B, and certainly not the shot at birth.  Unless the mother has Hep B (easily testable), the chance an infant will get Hep B is virtually zero.  It could be helpful for a teenager with bad habits, but it wears off within 10 years.
2) No flu shots.  Efficacy is questionable (multiple studies) and the flu is virtually harmless in children.  New Jersey is the only state that requires it.
3) No rotavirus - rotavirus is little more than diahrea in virtually all cases.  It is a third world disease that is uncommon in the US and other countries with modern sanitation.  No states require it.
4) No chicken pox (varicella) as infants or children.  If my kids don't get it by the time they are teenagers, then they can get the vaccine.
5) Spread the doses that you do get out.  You don't have to follow the CDC timeline, you can spread the shots out over a longer period.
6) No vaccinations if the child is in anyway sick or on antibiotics.  Make sure they are well at least a month before shots.
7) Measure blood antibody titers before giving a booster.  Children get 4 to 5 doses of many vaccines when they don't need it.  (the schedule uses a one size fits all policy that is designed to provoke immunity even in the most resistant).  You can measure their antibody levels to see if the booster is required.  If levels are high enough, the booster isn't required.
Ask for single dose vaccines of the multi-valent types and spread them out over time.

These are common sense measures that will protect your child but cut the number of doses in half.  What I have described above is based on the schedules of Sweden, Denmark and Iceland.  These are first world countries that don't see the need for what we do to our kids.

176 Anyone here had to ride in an ambulance twice with their child due to vaccine reactions? ..or has anyone here ever seen their friends break down in tears when they describe how they watched their once healthy child suddenly "become autistic" (friends' actual words) after receiving a vaccine? If anyone is interested in understanding why parents are cautious about or boycott vaccines, this website offers a rational explanation http://www.nvic.org

177 These are first world countries that don't see the need for what we do to our kids.

My only small quibble with that is we have unmitigated immigration from a third world country that doesn't vaccinate as much as we do, if at all, especially when they come here. I suppose if you don't live in any of the southern border states it's not that big of a deal, though.

178 Kids today are not healthier.  Autism, ADHD, allergies, asthma, peanut anaphalaxis, juvenile diabetes are all all time high rates.  These are all chronic conditions that plague our children.

Posted by: Jeff C. at January 22, 2011 11:59 PM

They are chronic but are they new?.  I taught school in the 60s and had many students who would now be classified with ADHA and know of several who ended up in special schools for mental problems and retardation who would now be classified as Autistic.  I had constant skin rashes that were simply treated with home remedies but I now know were allergies.  I had many friends who had stomach problems and other gastrointestinal issues that were also probably allergies,  but again they were home remedied.  It is what people did in the past, doctor visits and house calls were few and far between, so reporting was hit and miss at best.  I imagine many of the health problems we believe are new existed but were either not diagnosed or misdiagnosed in the past.  I do recall my bout of whooping cough and those neighbor small children who died from it.  I also remember the classmate who spent the remaining few years of her life in an iron lung.  My ex-brother-in-law suffered from testicular problems due to complications from Mumps.  My mother had a sister who died in an influenza epidemic.  What does it mean?  It means we need to be careful in deciding cause and effect of anything too quickly.  It does no one any good and could cause harm.   But I have to get up early, so have good night. 

179 If anyone is interested in understanding why parents are cautious about or boycott vaccines, this website offers a rational explanation http://www.nvic.org

Well if it's on the Internet it has to be true, huh?

180 Jeff C., the reason the CDC won't undertake a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study is pretty simple.

For it to be valid, it has to be random and large-scale. This means that they'd have to consciously leave a large control group of human subjects unvaccinated.

Studying the Amish doesn't work. Nor does studying a cohort whose parents volunteer to leave their children unvaccinated.

This study will never happen, because it has some serious medical ethics problems.

181 Jeff C: "Compare the 1983 pediatric vaccine schedule to the current 2010 schedule:" Jeff, the vaccines given today have a lot fewer antigens than in the past, so the number of vaccines given is moot. In 1980, the total number of antigens causing the immune system to react was over 3000, now it is under 130. The vaccine schedule complaint is yet another red herring. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/124#T2 http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/124/T2

182 Jeff, you also bring up the Amish. That, too, is not true. http://www.suite101.com/content/autism-among-the-amish-a157559 "Commentators also argue that the rates of autism are low in the Amish community. Again, this is not true. Pediatricians who work with the Amish community report that members seek out treatment for their children for symptoms that resemble autism or can easily be diagnosed as a form of autism. Dr. Kevin Strauss is a pediatrician at the Clinic For Special Children in Lancaster County. Mr. Strauss states, "The idea that the Amish do not vaccinate their children is untrue." Dr. Strauss also states, "We see autistic behaviors along with seizure disorders or mental retardation or a genetic disorder, where the autism is part of a more complicated clinical spectrum.”

183 I don't know about the autism-vaccine link, but there's no question that vaccinating infants can produce critical injury and death.

The U.S. govt has set up a fund to compensate parents and lists the side effects that most doctors fail to mention to their patients:

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/table.htm

184

Jeff C:

Thank you for your reasonsed posts and your reserve in dealing with all these snarky (and probably mostly childless) haters.

They post about hysterical parents thinking anecdotally and in terms of easy corelations, while unempirically dismissing our concerns about 'just dumb kids acting dumb'.

Its sickening.  I think Jenny McCarthy is a tacky fool; I couldnt stand her long before any of this.  And I dont fall for the global warming junk science.

The real concern, as you focus on, is the STACKING OF VACCINES and the NUMBER of vaccines.

I should think these good conservatives would be a bit alarmed about all the government sanctioned drug pushing over the last generation.

Genetic predispositions exist to be triggered environmentally (lung cancer in non-smokers, etc.).

My son has an auto-immune deficiency as well (severe hemophilia) and these highly stacked, intermixed immunization schedules do confront and often suppress the immune system, which may allow the manifestation of  predispositions,

We dont know because THEY WONT RESEARCH IT.

Understand this haters:  Reasonable parents of autistic children are not talking about one small class of immunization (MMR) we're talking about very small children being subjected to very tall, intermixed regimes of very powerful suppressive drugs.

We're not saying don't immunize, we're saying lets look at HOW we immunize and in what concentrations.

You do know that 1 in100 (and rising?), while it may not sound like much, is a demographic disaster, dont you?

IE, it affects you too.

 

 

185 Posted by: TomB at January 23, 2011 08:01 AM (hEMau)

The Amish are also genetically much less diverse than a random sample, so the results of epidemiological studies must take that into account.

For instance: how many six-fingered people have you ever seen in your entire life? Probably few or none. But it is very common in Amish communities (and the subject of a famous genetic study by McKusick at Johns Hopkins).

186 The longer I've been a mom, the more kids I've known to be rushed to the hospital within 48 hours of their shots. I can understand why people are paranoid about this; when you know an autistic child and can't remember anyone growing up like them. Yes, I had known and seen Down's kids and "mentally retarded" kids, but I had never seen kids who would just say random weird things and have jerky movements. The digestive track problems are also unique to autism.  The reason that the doubt figure is so high is the population as a whole is engaging is basal science: making observations where they're at. In my hometown several years ago, we had a measles outbreak, and just about every person who got the measles was up to date on their shots.
I'm kind of surprised at the statist cheer-leading on a supposedly conservative site. *sigh* Just trust the government studies an their lackeys in big pharma - don't question - their science is settled.

187 All of this - vaccines, DDT, global warming - illustrates the power of establishing perceptions in the minds of the public.  Once an incorrect perception is formed, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to root it out.  The left understands this and has employed the tactic with success for decades.  It is dishonest but when did that ever deter a liberal?

188 Understand this haters:  Reasonable parents of autistic children are not talking about one small class of immunization (MMR) we're talking about very small children being subjected to very tall, intermixed regimes of very powerful suppressive drugs.

Haters? Hahahaha. That's so cute.

You "reasonable" people are talking about the vaccine schedule now. Before that you same "reasonable" people were all over MMR because of Wakefield and then Thimerosal because of MERCURY!!!eleventy!

The vaccine schedule canard is the latest goalpost shift from these other theories that didn't pan out. Come back when you have some research to support your claims.

189 Posted by: republicanmother at January 23, 2011 08:42 AM (4JT7Z)

"Government study" and "government funded study" are two very different things. Most of these studies have been done in the private sector with some government funding assistance. Some have been done privately.

190

All of you thinking we're haters for thinking autism isn't caused by vaccines are idiots. That's all this thread is really about. Nobody has claimed that vaccinations are always safe, just safer than letting diseased children intereract with others.

 

I've got three children from 13-22 years of age so I have total moral authority.

 

See how stupid that sounds, but that's what I hear when you argue that people without children can't understand how you feel.

191 My son has an auto-immune deficiency as well (severe hemophilia)

Haemophilia is not an auto-immune disorder. It is a genetic disorder that is caused by problems with clotting factors.

192 Posted by: digitalbrownshirt at January 23, 2011 09:33 AM (C6OjH)

Good luck with that rational shit.

Seriously, DBS makes the only salient point.

"Nobody has claimed that vaccinations are always safe, just safer than letting diseased children interact with others."

193 "Just trust the government studies an their lackeys in big pharma - don't question - their science is settled." republicanmother, how do "big pharma" (whatever the hell that is) and the evil doctors make more money? Give inoculations to infants and toddlers to prevent many previously common diseases, or let the kids get all of those diseases and admit them to the hospital and treat them with all kinds of new medicines? Your conspiracy falls apart when you really think about it.

194

Wow!

What a random sampling of judgemental people. This is actually quite sad, I am the mother of a severely autistic child, as well as a healthy, cerebrally normal child. I have ALWAYS vaccinated BOTH of my children, and will continue to do so..............what I will NOT do, however, is ascribe to patronizing "educated" people, who have "data" and refute ANY possibility that vaccinations could be a trigger for those who are genetically predisposed to autism. Note that I DID say genetic, and have not and will not lay blame at the feet of vaccines. I have been and am an advocate of early infant screening for autism, and together with my pediatrician, have our son on a different vaccine schedule--he still gets full immunity, just not so much of a "good thing" at once.

No one lives this life but us, and to judge someone who may suggest an alternative to what the mainstream pushes on us as parents is sad. It is easy to reign from on high when you have only healthy children who will grow up and become functioning adults--but I must point out that within 5 years, the numbers will go from what is currently 1 in 150, to 1 in 100 births for autism, if this does not scare everyone on this post, then there is truly something wrong. You will ALL know or be related to someone who is affected by this in your lifetime, we are NOT looking for red herrings, just better testing, and a legit course of treatment.

195 On the plus side, you can think of it as evolution in action.

196 No one lives this life but us, and to judge someone who may suggest an alternative to what the mainstream pushes on us as parents is sad. It is easy to reign from on high when you have only healthy children who will grow up and become functioning adults

You need to take some time to read more closely. The moral authority card doesn't play here as many of us, myself included, have children on the spectrum.

197

Let's see if I got this right...

 We don't trust the left-wing media - or isolated Ivory Tower types who do scientific research - but the left-wing media and their Ivory Tower politicaL colleagues sez that we're a buncha ignorant, smelly rednecks if we believe that vaccinations can cause autism...and we believe 'em! (Kinda like they did when they coined the word, "Birthers," and we bought the narraivethe narrative about "Birthers," hook, line and sinker.)

 The researcher who did the study relating autism to innoculations is making a fairly good case that he's being demonized by other researchers who are opposed to his work. Have you listened to his argument? To his defense of his reputation? Come on. I mean it's not as if the MSM and Ivory Tower types have never, ever, ever demonized anyone else for ideological purposes or for personal gain, before. Never, never, never, eh?

 Here's a thought. Do your own research. Do a cost/benefit analysis. What are the dangers inherent in getting incoculations for specific disease threats? (i.e. side effects of the specific 'medication'). What are the dangers - and chances - of you contracting a specific disease? Then, make your own decision, instead of spreading a narrative designed to coerce you into making a decision based upon ideological appeals to emotion.

 Personally, in many cases, if not most, I'd opt for the innoculation, myself...but I won't presume to coerce others to get them (government fiat)...or force their children to get them (government fiat).

 (Disclosure: My kids got the shots until they were old enough to make their own decisions.)

 

 

198 "Let's see if I got this right..." Uh, no. Pretty much none of it.

199 There are two more factors that account for the increase in the number of diagnoses.  1) The existence of more special needs children means more federal money for the schools they attend.  2) Parents prefer to talk about all they are doing for their autistic child than to about how troubling it is that little Johnny isn't doing well in school.  The diagnosis lets them off the hook. 

Bonus question.  Would the media have given nearly the attention if the study had purported to link the rising levels of autism to the increased number of preschoolers in daycare instead of to the use of vaccines? 

200

 Who paid for the research, both pro and con? Until the corporations (connected to politicians via campaign donations)get out of our educational institutions, I have my doubts about the veracity of most, if not all, research they promote and pay for at those institutions.

 I've seen a lot of opinions, listened to a lot of rhetoric - and plain and simple sophistry - but, as is so often the case in the blogosphere, there's a dearth of facts being presented. The MSM said it, so you believe it? One researchers says something you agree with, so you blithely accept it, without a doubt? (True of both sides of this argument.)

 (The other side of the coin is that government is good when it promotes what you want, but it's bad when it promotes anything else. ...but you hate big government, too, eh?)

201 "Who paid for the research, both pro and con? Until the corporations (connected to politicians via campaign donations)get out of our educational institutions, I have my doubts about the veracity of most, if not all, research they promote and pay for at those institutions." Wakefield's "research" (on a total of 12 kids) was funded in part by trial lawyers. And if you still want to cling to this fanstasy, you are going to have to explain why autism rates continue to rise in countries like Japan, who banned MMR in 1994. And why we didn't see a drop in rates when the MMR scare was at its peak in the UK.

202

 The funny thing is...that most of those who have traditionally been opposed to innoculations are ideologically located on the right side of the aisle... I first heard of this issue in a right-wing christian church more than thirty years ago. The issue appears again and again at survivalist/prepper and on right-wing militia sites to this day. You also see  the autism connection being discused on left-wing nature worshipping sites, too. (It's not a right vs left problem, people.)

 Many commenters here, seem to think it's only the left-wing nature-worshipping 'greens' who are opposed.

 Personally, I recommend getting the appropriate innoculations. But I'm a Veteran Sergeant of Marines. We got lots of shots... But I'll be damned if I promote using the government to hold a gun to someone's head to make him or his children get them. (If he wants to die a horrible death, or if he wants his children to die a horrible death, that's his decision. Chlorine in the friggin' genetic pool, if nuthin' else.)

 

 

203

Charlie Brown:  Thank you for your correction per hemophilia as an auto-immunne disorder.  It is indeed a genetic clotting disorder that often has immunity implications.  I mistechnospoke.

And I'd agree with the comment you highlighted; most parents of autistic kids are not anti-vaccine.  We're focusing on HOW its done.

Rather than hating the drug companies, many of us are hopeful their research may be the next frontier, as traditional behavioral therapies have limited effectiveness.

As far as being rational is concerned, how rational is it to elevate Jenny McCarthy some exhalted status as uber spokesperson for all things autistic?  Not very.

Most of us recognize her for the dolt she is and by the way, you fellows are rather late to the Wakefield debunking. We've known for a good while this was rigged research designed to attract grant money.

I'm guessing some of you think we're trying some good ol ACORN tactics to gin up a John Edwards style lawsuit, but I think the pharms are pretty well protected from that and absent some real smoking gun, I'm OK with that.  Pharm guys have kids that get vaccinated too.

Its more like this:  Focusing on causation doesnt help us; our kids will always be autistic.  We've got to focus on treatment breakthroughs.

But having gone through it, we'd like for the rest of you to not.  And the numbers, even if fudged some, are still high enough to be a social concern for us all.

Brownshirt:  I'm happy for the good health of your children, but that moral authority of yours can be attenuated quickly.

  Perhaps you'll be a grandparent before too long.

Would you want these children vaccinated?  Me too.

Do you want them to be OK?  Me too.

 

204 "But I'll be damned if I promote using the government to hold a gun to someone's head to make him or his children get them. (If he wants to die a horrible death, or if he wants his children to die a horrible death, that's his decision. Chlorine in the friggin' genetic pool, if nuthin' else.)" But you have no right to infect my child. No vaccine is 100% effective and we depend on a high vaccination rate to protect those inoculated children who can still contract the disease. If you don't want to vaccinate, fine, but keep your kids away from mine.

205

Vaccines are mostly safe, unless one causes your son to have a seizure and brain death.  Our case is public record. 

So what do you do if you were 100% pro-vaccine and three (and one half --- legally relevant) days after the DTAP your son has a seizure which immediately stops his heart?  The medical community reacts to possible vaccine injuries by not reporting them to HHS.  If they write anything down they could be asked to give controversial testimony and face scorn from other doctors.

So knowing your one child apparently was the "one in a million" child who has a fatal seizure from pertussis serum, though no practicing doctor would dare to write that down, what do you do for your next (also now only) child?

Oh, and fuck you too moron.  

206 The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

207

Regarding the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study, the CDC explanation is that it would be unethical to leave children unvaccinated so they canÂ’t do the study.  This is a pretty weak excuse.  In 2010, there are 62 million children in the US (0 to 17 years old).  Best estimates are that 3% of these kids are completely unvaccinated, leaving a pool of 1.92 million children to draw from for the study.  No children will need to be left unvaccinated, they already exist. 

 

I used the Amish as an example, but there are plenty of others.  Many Jehovah Witness adherents are unvaccinated as are the members of other obscure sects.  You have the children extreme tree-huggers along with Montana militia and Alex Jones types.  The kids already exist and are unvaccinated in accordance with their parentÂ’s wishes.  YouÂ’re telling me that out of nearly 2 million unvaccinated children, the CDC canÂ’t round up a few thousand for retrospective study?  The CDC explanation is nonsense and leads me to think they are afraid of what they will find.

 

The CDC is a respected institution, but it is still a government bureaucracy.  IÂ’m sure you donÂ’t take those in government running Obamacare or climate change initiatives at their word.  As conservatives, we question their motivation and intent.  Why would the CDC be any different?  Vaccines are a 28 billion dollar business and the CDC gets in on this action by licensing vaccines they develop.  There is a revolving door between the CDC and the vaccine industry, President BushÂ’s head of the CDC (Julie Gerberding) is now MerckÂ’s Vice President of vaccine development.  Those that retire from the CDCÂ’s advisor council are routinely hired by the vaccine industry as consultants.  There is a clear conflict of interest.  I believe that is what has lead to the explosion of the vaccine schedule, not any real need for these additional vaccinations (with few exceptions).  The CDC schedule now calls out that everyone six months and older should get a flu shot every year.  Does anyone really think that is necessary?  However, it does create a market for 300 million vaccine doses that did not exist before.

 

Instead of doing the study to settle the manner once and for all, they have retreated to the “science is settled” defense.  They are making a big show out of destroying Andrew Wakefield as if this is all about one man and one study.  They intentionally ignore the thousands of parents that report their children regressed into autism after vaccinations.  Every one of those parents has told their family, friends, and co-workers about their suspicions.  Those they tell know the parents arenÂ’t crazy and it raises suspicions in their own minds.  That is why this wonÂ’t go away.  Dr. Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy are only bit players.

208 "YouÂ’re telling me that out of nearly 2 million unvaccinated children, the CDC canÂ’t round up a few thousand for retrospective study?" Do a google search for "double-blind study" and you will see why "rounding up" children who have already not been vaccinated will not work.

209

Re nj in fl – God bless you, we will keep your child in our prayers.  Regarding treatment, my high functioning ASD child was helped dramatically using the DAN! protocol.  His main physiological problem was that he could not digest protein, thus leading to malnutrition and bacterial overgrowth.  This was confirmed via multiple medical tests (none of which were covered by insurance).  Treating him with pancreatic enzymes and an elemental amino acid nutritional formula changed his life.  He is now out of special education and in a regular class.

 

There are clinical trials ongoing for a drug called Curemark to treat this condition.  Those developing the drug claim that as many as 70% of ASD children canÂ’t properly digest and process protein.  Their drug will do much of the same thing we did, but will take years to get FDA approval.  I was not willing to wait.

210 TomB - instead of sending me off on a wild goose chase, why don't you explain it?  Studies are done all the time for conditions that have a much smaller pool the 2 million candidates

211 "TomB - instead of sending me off on a wild goose chase, why don't you explain it? Studies are done all the time for conditions that have a much smaller pool the 2 million candidates" If something that basic eludes you, why are you lecturing us on the science of MMR and autism??? In order for a study like this to be accurate, all children must be vaccinated, some with the actual vaccine and some with an inert substance like saline. Nobody, not the parents or even the researchers can know which child has the vaccine and which don't. The test subjects must also be chosen at random.

212 .

First off, I said nothing about MMR, check my comments.  I spoke specifically of the increase in the vaccine schedule coupled with the increase in chronic disorders among children.  Second, I used the words “retrospective study”.  The kids already exist and are unvaccinated.  Researchers would study the medical records and physical health of these kids vs. those that followed the schedule.  Incidence of chronic conditions such as ASD, ADHD, asthma, etc. would be compared.  A retrospective study is not the same thing as taking a group of lab rats and subjecting one group to condition A and the other group to condition B.  We all agree that isnÂ’t feasible, along with taking at least ten years to complete.

 

I have an ASD child and am looking for answers; that is my motivation.  What is yours?

213 "I have an ASD child and am looking for answers; that is my motivation. What is yours?" I'm a doctor and I don't want to see any more kids needlessly die of vaccine-preventable diseases.

214 The fact remains that the government is doing all it can to shut down any hint that vaccination and/or the current vaccination schedule contributed or contributes one iota to autism. This makes me suspicious. BTW Jenny McCarthy is a proponent of spreading vaccination over a longer period of time. She's not anti-vaccine full stop. look it up.

215 Again with the label "hate" for anyone or any viewpoint that doesn't agree with yours. What are we, five?

216 214 so instead we'll just sentence an unknown number of children to death and/or severely crippling diseases? As others are pointing out, there IS a better choice than EITHER no vaccines AND the insanity of ~30 jabs in 2 years. Pity your industry refuses to seek it ...

217 "As others are pointing out, there IS a better choice than EITHER no vaccines AND the insanity of ~30 jabs in 2 years. Pity your industry refuses to seek it ... " If you are going to comment, at least have the courtesy of reading the thread. I already showed how wrong the "too many too soon" theory is: "the vaccines given today have a lot fewer antigens than in the past, so the number of vaccines given is moot. In 1980, the total number of antigens causing the immune system to react was over 3000, now it is under 130. The vaccine schedule complaint is yet another red herring. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/124#T2 http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/124/T2" And as far as the "evil industry" conspiracy goes, answer this question already asked: "how do "big pharma" (whatever the hell that is) and the evil doctors make more money? Give inoculations to infants and toddlers to prevent many previously common diseases, or let the kids get all of those diseases and admit them to the hospital and treat them with all kinds of new medicines? Your conspiracy falls apart when you really think about it."

218 I did read the thread jackass, and summarily reject your first assertion. perhaps the antigens have gone down, but how about the cadmium, antimony, and all the other CRAP that's now in 30 jabs instead of ~12?! and just to inflame things even more, are you telling me you'd walk away from near guaranteed reimbursement of 100% of your panel for "full" vaccination in exchange, perhaps, for scattered reimbursements for a small minority of your panel who MIGHT require limited inpatient care for various viral diseases?

219 "I did read the thread jackass, and summarily reject your first assertion. perhaps the antigens have gone down, but how about the cadmium, antimony, and all the other CRAP that's now in 30 jabs instead of ~12?! " Nice language. Way to argue your point. Anyway, what evidence do you have that there is more "CRAP" in the current shots than previous? Remember, all of the shots now are in unit dose vials, so there is less need for preservatives. "and just to inflame things even more, are you telling me you'd walk away from near guaranteed reimbursement of 100% of your panel for "full" vaccination in exchange, perhaps, for scattered reimbursements for a small minority of your panel who MIGHT require limited inpatient care for various viral diseases?" Never, because I don't want to see kids get sick. But doctors don't make a lot of money off of vaccines compared to treating measles, chickenpox, whooping cough, and the rest. I don't know where the hell you get "small minority", but an infant with measles or chickenpox is a serious issue, let alone pertussus or Hib. So can you back up ANY of your assertions?

220 At this point the anti-vaccine position has become a matter of faith and identity, so its going to be damn hard to reach a lot of them.

221 "How the hell do they make more money?" It's really very simple, they've maxed out the market share on the vaccines that everyone agreed on in the '80s and before - the ones for virulent, highly contagious diseases. Now they've moved on to giving kids STD vaccines. Gardisil, for example only protects against a handful of strains of HPV, while there are over hundred you could get. Gov. Rick Perry was caught with his pants down (hee, hee) fast-tracking Gardasil by executive order as a mandatory vaccine for sixth grade girls. It was found out later that he received a sizable contribution from Merck and the Women in Government group that had pushed the mandatory shot also had considerable Merck backing. Perry's former chief of staff was working as a lobbyist for Merck at the time of the attempted executive order. Merck's lead researcher, Dr. Diane Harper, has come out and said that should not be made mandatory, as it has significant side effects, especially on younger girls. But think about what a mandatory vaccine means, it means that that vaccine will be bought whether or not the child has private insurance or Medicaid, and Merck or whomever will receive a cut. I would encourage everyone to check out the National Names database mapping tool if you would like to visualize the revolving door that is the pharmaceutical companies, the CDC, and the FDA. Just a couple of years ago, I was the most pro-vaccine person you could hope to meet, but as I dig into this issue, I see that there are way more angles to it. It's not a matter of faith, but of independent thought - some people can't handle it.

222 "But think about what a mandatory vaccine means, it means that that vaccine will be bought whether or not the child has private insurance or Medicaid, and Merck or whomever will receive a cut." That doesn't explain how preventing a disease is cheaper than treating it.

223 u must be a doc, 'cause yer so bad at math. vaccinate 20 MILLION kids = $x. treat, what, 400k kids = $x/1.5 [or whatever]

224 Merck gets money for the vaccine immediately and can post profits that year. 90% of HPV cases resolve on their own and require no treatment. The cost of treating cervical cancer will be borne many years down the road and really can't enter into an economical analysis. If you have any experience with a corporation as large as Merck, they have expectations as to when things will go on the market to make them money. The large-scale economics don't enter into it. Why should they give a crap who pays for anything next year, those in the corporation are getting a promotion based on this year's monetary results. If Merck has the only vaccine or the most popular, they'll make a killing. And each school year, that golden syringe will keep giving the cash. What if they had not had developed the HPV vaccine? How would they profit off of HPV infection? Maybe with general drugs, but the treatment would not specific to their company, thus they would not be making exclusive profits. Do you not see how a mandatory vaccine would give them $ they could take to the bank? They'd have some pencilneck reading off the population of sixth graders in Texas and multiplying the cost of the vaccine for each times the next 10 years... I'm just looking at the motivation behind these companies who at this point have pretty much maxed out development on virulent disease vaccinations. Where do they go next and why? If you told someone 20 years ago that they're be mandatory vaccines for behaviorally-related diseases, you'd be laughed at. But just look up the CDC's own reasoning behind the Hep B shots - they were unsuccessful getting hookers and junkies to come in for their shots, so they'd decide to shoot up newborns before they could grow up to be skanks. My daughter's BF stopped breathing and turned blue after her 1st Hep B and had to be on a monitoring system for her first year - that kinda sucked. I know another kid whose bowels prolapsed after the Rotateq. The mother asked the ped. if there was any connection between needing emergency surgery to put his guts back together and the shot he had had recently. The dr. responded not with consideration, but actually became agitated and condescending. Wanna bet he reported it to the Vaccine Adverse Reporting System? Yeah, right. But Intussusception of the bowels is listed on the insert as a reported side effect. This is actually the second child I have known that needed bowel surgery after the Rotateq.

225 If the vaccines work how are vaccinated children at risk from those that arent? If the vaccines work why are there outbreaks in fully vaccinated communities? If a child has a one in a million chance of contracting a disease and a one in a thousand chance of a serious adverse reaction, why put the child at risk? Why are there no published studies, long or short term, of the risks of vaccinations by drug manufacturers? You could probably find 10 on viagra alone. If you havent done the research on what the vaccination do to a developing brain, you shouldnt be posting. Open blogger and the rest should do so research of their own before spewing.

226 "If the vaccines work how are vaccinated children at risk from those that arent?" If you can seriously ask that question, you have no clue as to how vaccines work and can't be taken seriously. The rest of your questions are just talking out your ass.

227

@Tom B----I am very curious as to exactly what kind of practice you are in--ie; primary care, pediatrician, specialist, ect. I am not attempting to be combative, but simply curious. I am the mother of a severe "classic" autistic child, age 6--and together with my pediatrician, we have developed a vaccine schedule that deviates slightly from the CDC posted schedule. my son has all of the necessary titers on board, protecting him from childhood illnesses, however we are NOT arrogant enough to proclaim that there is no possible trigger with the vaccines. As I have said earlier in my post, I am well aware that there is a genetic pre disposition to autism, and I am also well aware that there have been NO credible studies on vaccines and autism. Additionally, per my conversations with the CDC, the reason for the vaccination schedule that pediatricians use, is that if they did not give vaccines en masse, many parents would not bring their children back to follow an abbreviated schedule. I have NEVER claimed "moral authority" on this or any other issue, I am simply doing what I believe is right for my child.

@Jeff C---thank you for the prayers, you are in ours as well.

228
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