1

Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, the chairman of the National Transitional Council and de fact president, had already declared that Libyan laws in future would have Sharia, the Islamic code, as its "basic source".

Well, if it makes anyone feel better, the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks Britain needs to recognize Sharia Law, too...

2 We knew you'd come around to our way of thinking.

3 As long as they spend the foreseeable future tearing themselves apart, and keeping themselves in the stone age, I'm fine with that.  I really don't want them to be joining the 21st century with their culture intact. 

4
Those paragraphs apply almost word for word equally to Progressives.

5 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

6 somehow  I think it'll be different than our "Judeo-Christian" based political system.

7

You know....I really hate it that Glenn Beck's doomy predictions are coming true.

He made predictions/warnings about the upcoming Caliphate in the Mideast.... and also how the Union organizers are planning to collapse our Financial System.

Occutards demonizing Banks and holding up signs that say Debt is Slavery. ...Congressmen calling for the refinancing of all underwater mortgages.

It's getting harder and harder to not wear a tin foil hat these days, and wonder if this is all a part of an evil master plan that is falling into place.  

8 "Alex, I'll choose stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure for $400."

9 ....let Allah sort 'em out

( God's busy )

10
I had a nice chuckle over all the Obama rump-swabs (and experts) who said thanks to Libya, gas is gonna drop dramatically.

chyyeaaaahhhh, right

11

"The Islamic world has been essentially frozen in the middle ages forever. "

Or since about AD 622, I would guess.

12 He would also ban banks from charging interest.

Question: Do we know if that would be a blanket ban, or just a ban on charging interest on loans to Muslims?

the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks Britain needs to recognize Sharia Law

Of course we need to recognize it.  We need to be able to say, "Yep.  That's Sharia Law, over there."  If you don't recognize it, it's harder to cross the street and hurry the other direction.

13

But now we can pretend the people of these Arab Spring countries are accountable. So if they harbor terrorists, we don't have to fight and rebuild them, we can just level them like in a real war.

 

14 Thanks for liberating us from Saddam and not stealing our oil.  Now GTFU-- Iran's coming over tonight, and we have to freshen up.

15
OccupyJihad

16 islam is nihilism. it will never be more than it is now.

17 The "progress" of this transition involved hunting down the old tyrant, sodomizing him with a stick and then executing him with a couple of bullets. Any guesses on what happens to uncle Moamar's successor?

18 Er, GTFO.  Your Roman letters confuse and frighten us.

19
bonus reminder: we're just weeks away from a vote in the UN for the destruction of Israel, i.e., a vote for a Palestinian state.

20

>>>He made predictions/warnings about the upcoming Caliphate in the Mideast

There will never be a caliphate for the simply reason that each of these new found mini-islamic government will cede their power to some central authority.  Religion is subject to interpretation and it's unlikely that all Sunni muslims will agree on one leader.

Nationalism and Religious difference will prevent a caliphate.

If Nasser and his wars against Israel cound't unify the Sunni/Arab world, then it's unlikely that anyone can.

21
Thank God all those rocket launchers are in safe hands.

22 Jihadis: "The solution is more islam."

Progressives: "The solution is more government."

A pox on them all.

23 Don't worry, wind and solar technology will get us off mideast oil in 300 years.

24 Yeah, they need to go through the Sharia experiment and witness the squalor it creates.

25
bonus reminder: we're just weeks away from a vote in the UN for the destruction of Israel, i.e., a vote for a Palestinian state.

tic toc tic toc....... emeffers

26 that the West learned from ca. AD 1300 to the present. The Islamic world has been essentially frozen in the middle ages forever.

In fairness, it's not like we came up with those ideas out of the blue. We just got around to reading the stuff that had been learned during the Greek and Roman days and thankfully preserved by Catholic monasticism. Thankfully preserved because the place where civilization could have should have found these critical philosophical works the Great Library in Egypt, was destroyed...

27 But if they are to be, the people of these lands are probably going to have to learn all the lessons of history that the West learned from ca. AD 1300 to the present. The Islamic world has been essentially frozen in the middle ages forever.

As long as these countries are ruled by religious fanatics they will stay stuck in the 6th century. Replacing a secular government with a theocratic dictatorship is not the solution and only a dumb ass like Obama would do it.

28 In the short term, we get to watch them butcher each other, and of course occasionally butcher our own citizens.

My concern Ace is watching very immature children playing wanting to play with adult toys that even the adults are afraid to play with (see Iran).  The solutions that run through my head are just as ugly as the problems that they may or may not solve.

29 Nationalism and Religious difference will prevent a caliphate.

You're forgetting that one of the major drivers behind most, if not all, of these uprisings was the Muslim Brotherhood.  That's one group with one ideology (at least as much as one of our own political parties has 'one ideology').  That makes the chances of caliphate go up somewhat.  Enough?  Not sure, but some.

30 I'd like to mention that, in European history, "Enlightened Absolutism" came before liberal republics. That is, Europe went from a feudal (warlord) society to a centralized (absolute) state-- yet under a monarch, not a democracy.

From there, many of the monarchs realized that liberal policies would benefit their kingdoms (free trade, freedom of religion, etc.), and put those into practice. Only once a strong, educated middle class had emerged did you have a transition to republicanism.

I'm just saying that it's pretty ridiculous to expect (or even want) countries in the warlord stage to move to the republic stage without having to go through the absolutist stage. That is, we shouldn't be against the idea of these countries being ruled by dictators/sultans so long as they're stable and not barbaric.

Of course, I'm not saying Gadhafi was enlightened or liberal, but you get the picture. Instead of supporting democratic uprising (which just lead to feudal and barbaric Sharia states), we should be supporting strongmen who can pacify and stabilize the Arabs.

31 Instead of the 'news', the MFM should just play segments of "Pulp Fiction" over and over again.   The nature / level of Reality would be about the same.

--What? What ain't no............

32
oh, I heard an interesting perspective about the sudden announcement for the withdrawal from Iraq and why Hillary kept mentioning President Bush for why we're doing it.

We got kicked out of Iraq. The Obama admin is trying to hide that fact and is reminding people that we're just going by Bush's timeline.

But yeah, Obama and that idiot Hillary just got us kicked out of Iraq.

Nice goin, shitheads.

33 Mission Accomplished!

34 Well I have no great hopes for Libya or the the Arab Spring in general.
But one good thing about it is that it's essentially replacing Lawful Evil regimes with much more chaotic Evil ones. Yeah they'll still be failed sharia-run hellholes, but it'll take them a few years to get all their internal conflicts sorted out which means that in the interim they won't be causing much trouble for the outside world.

35 But Obama rules, what replaces Libya has no news value. The "victory" has been had, completely because of Obama, the rebels and NATO did nothing, they were merely a sideshow. Obama himself did it all. OK now hold on while I throw some things in this big memory hole. First of all this "We will be in Libya days not weeks or months", that can go in there. Then the clear violation of the War Powers act...yeah that too. Also I musn't forget to throw the entire anti war movement in there too, since Obama is a Democrat and now war is just cool, and so is killing without trial or international condemnation.

36 So, they already have a new strongman in charge? Brother, that didn't take long.

I just hope the Libyans didn't exchange Old King Log for Young King Stork. Though I can't see how it can be otherwise: tyranny is all the Libyans have ever known. In governance as in mathematics, the first rule of for solving a problem is to reduce it to a known form.

37 Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:08 PM (3tEVR)

yes, but not everywhere:  Switzerland, Holland, Denmark.  You could toss in a few others like Norway and Finland, but their history is ...complicated

38 Dems are extremely  regressive they further the goals of womenbeing shoved into  Burkhas and being stoned for being raped, also children that steal a piece of candy will be losing a hand or two. 

we are so understanding of  a male dominated culture ,we Help harm women and children. all in the name of understanding diversity and being fair...

39 Actually the entire Arab world could use some nice long-running civil wars to keep all the excitable young men preoccupied. As long as the oil still gets pumped, who cares.

40 Historically speaking, Islamism and classical liberal Democracy are effectively non-compatible. Its not politically correct to say this, though empirically its true. Its also true that virtually every Middle Eastern country has a lot more experience with political Islam than Western style Democracy.

41

20....Nationalism and Religious difference will prevent a caliphate.

I hope you're right, Ben. ....The Muslim Brotherhood seems to be gaining ground in all these newly 'liberated' countries, though. Which would be the common thread tying those countries together. 

42 But one good thing about it is that it's essentially replacing Lawful Evil regimes with much more chaotic Evil ones.

So you also believed the scariest monsters, level 1 - 5, were Hobgoblins.  I'm glad to find another.

43 soooo when will tshtf in  saudi arabia , any guesses?

44

Thankfully preserved because the place where civilization could have should have found these critical philosophical works the Great Library in Egypt, was destroyed...

There's evidence that even without a catastrophic fire (or two; there are differing accounts), the Library of Alexandria's collection wouldn't have survived very long.  Papyrus scrolls had a finite lifespan, and before printing presses (thanks, Gutenberg!), everything had to be hand-copied.  (And apparently organizing scrolls is really hard, since they don't stack or stay upright.)

So I'm not doubting your main point, just nuancing it up a bit.

45

The leftie wierdoes want to bring that shit her, because of the oppression and lack of social justice.

It's being brewed up right now in our beloved insane universiites, where the lovely OWS idiots were crafted.

46 Robespierre, Robespierre, wherefore art thou?

47 Posted by: SantaRosaStan, keeping it Real at October 24, 2011 03:10 PM (UqKQV)

Good point. To be fair, some countries, such as the Dutch Republic, formed centralized states through Republics-- but those "Republics" were usually aristocracies. So in some cases, a strongman isn't necessary, but I'd still argue that a group of them is.

Though I thought Denmark DID have an absolutist period, but I could be mistaken.

48 "I'd like to mention that, in European history, "Enlightened Absolutism" came before liberal republics. That is, Europe went from a feudal (warlord) society to a centralized (absolute) state-- yet under a monarch, not a democracy."

Hey, l'etat, c'est moi! And I'm enlightened! So, screw that Edict of Nantes crap!

49 Of course, I'm not saying Gadhafi was enlightened or liberal, but you get the picture. Instead of supporting democratic uprising (which just lead to feudal and barbaric Sharia states), we should be supporting strongmen who can pacify and stabilize the Arabs. Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:08 PM (3tEVR) You got there first. That's what I get for reading the comments. But yes, we'll see flat-out despotism in these countries for a while, maybe military dictatorship, and then maybe they can make halting steps toward democracy.

50

The big problem is that we (NATO) intervened.

Sure, Ghadaffi was a first class prick....what monarch isn't.

He snatched power the old fashioned way, he toppled the previous monarchy.

The problem is that that we pushed Ghadaffi out of power....the "uprising" was about to get its collective teeth kicked down its collective throat....Ghadaffi had billions in gold and cash on hand....you can buy a lot of mercinaries for that kind of dough, and for a long, long time.

The "insurgents" had neither the public backing, the power, nor the organization, necessary to have any significant impact....Most rebellions, uprisings, civil wars, etc, are typically governed by that necessary critical mass.....Without it you are a bunch of badly pulped 20 somethings rotting away in some isolated proison for a couple of decades.  With it you are the new "legitimate" government.

Anyway, we toppled the guy and now a radical group, over which we exercise no influence, is in control of that nation, its oil and its treasury....

What could possibly go wrong?

51 As long as these countries are ruled by religious fanatics they will stay stuck in the 6th century. Replacing a secular government with a theocratic dictatorship is not the solution and only a dumb ass like Obama would do it. Posted by: Vic at October 24, 2011 03:07 PM (YdQQY) That sums it up nicely. I have lived in three of those, uh, SLC's, and spent significant time in several others. The ones that were the most successful in providing "fair" leadership and opportunities had a Western orientation in their government (Oman, Jordan). The others had a lot of money, but treated their people and third world nationals like garbage. Yep, they had theocratic governments.

52 Barack Hussein Obama: the best thing for Islam since... polygamy!

/and goat sodomy....

53 43 soooo when will tshtf in saudi arabia , any guesses? Posted by: willow-generic republican at October 24, 2011 03:12 PM (h+qn Right after the Saudis induce the other sunni nations to attack Iran. The Iranians just need to inflame the Saudi shiia and the S will H the F.

54
so, anyway...

How's our Republican-led House doing? Haven't heard much from them, lately.

It's too bad they're like turtles who always go back in their shells.

55 ooops. Sock off.

56 Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:13 PM (3tEVR)

not all aristocracies are 'absolutist'.    As for the Danes, their monarchy was never what most people would call Ab.  Too mellow; too many fine wimmin

57

But yeah, Obama and that idiot Hillary just got us kicked out of Iraq.

Nice goin, shitheads.

From what I've read, a major sticking point was that Iraq wouldn't give prosecutorial immunity to our troops stationed there.  If we stay without that... Oooh, boy, that wouldn't be fun.

Anyway, Iraq is clearly ungrateful.  FrankJ was right when he said we should steal their oil like the Left claimed we wanted to.

Next time we invade a country, we break their things, loot some resources, capture and kill some of the leadership, and then leave, warning them that if we come back, it'll be less pleasant.

58 Solid B+, if I do say so myself.

59 The dark ages of the Middle East has ended and a new improved dark ages is now to begin. Watch for our updated improved Dark Age coming next year.

Who would have thought that Obama would try and lose Iraq?  It almost seems that he is trying to relive the lefty glory days of the fall of Viet-Nam so that he can say that he is smarter than Bush.  That is all he really wants in life, poor child. In all honesty we can't call a SCOAMF because he is achieving his objectives.  How about SCOAMT, as in traitor.

60

He would also ban banks from charging interest.

They have ways of getting around that. ....They just call it 'fees' or act as middlemen for purchases, then charge more for the financed puchased items in order to make their interest profit on time-payment plans.

61 Hi moki. Did they tell you yet whether or not you will be required to get chemo or radiation?

62 The Muslim Brotherhood seems to be gaining ground in all these newly 'liberated' countries, though. Funny how the Muslim Brotherhood keeps benefitting each time we commit or withdraw troops or support. Pure coincidence, I'm sure.

63 I suppose, if they were smart, they could skip over the long, violent process of discovering that a liberal (classic sense) democratic republic is the only system that really works, by studying our example, and applying the lessons our ancestors learned.

The only country to really do this though was Japan, and even in their case they didn't get it quite right...

64

Anyway, we toppled the guy and now a radical group, over which we exercise no influence, is in control of that nation, its oil and its treasury....

What could possibly go wrong?

....and your point is????????

65
You got there first. That's what I get for reading the comments. But yes, we'll see flat-out despotism in these countries for a while, maybe military dictatorship, and then maybe they can make halting steps toward democracy.

Posted by: Vote joncelli/Cthulhu 2012 at October 24, 2011 03:15 PM (RD7QR)

But it's more than just the politics, the underlying culture matters more, and these people do not possess the culture to emulate us. Nor will they for a very, very long time.

66
btw, it's funny to remember all the people here who were cheering on the "rebels."

While some of us kept saying we'd be worse off without Kaddafi.

Well, guess what.

67 Machiavelli laid it all out in his Discourses on Livy's History of Rome.  You really can't jump directly from despotism to democracy: the Germans did it post-WWII because they had past experience of democracy, and the Japanese did it at that time because they had the benevolent dictatorship of MacArthur to oversee the transition.

68 Posted by: Louis XIV at October 24, 2011 03:14 PM (VrNoa)

Hey, hey, you never actually said that! That's a historical myth!

As for the Edict of Fontainbleu replacing Nantes, I'm not saying that every decision made by an "Enlightened Absolutist" was a good thing, just as every decision by OUR government is a good thing. Still, people like Louis XIV, Frederick the Great, Maria Theresa, Napoleon I, etc. did much more good for their states than bad.

You know Voltaire, the famous Liberal philosopher? He HATED the idea of democracies, and thought that the only way humanity would ever progress was through liberal absolute monarchs. Just saying, absolutism does not mean anti-liberalism.

69 How's our Republican-led House doing? Haven't heard much from them, lately.

Well, my taxes haven't increased since they got in power, so I'll call that a good sign.

Seriously, there's only so much they can do, and the very fact that Democrats in the Senate aren't lining up to throw the rest of us off the proverbial cliff is actually a testimony to how well the House has been doing: it's one thing to make an unpopular vote when you know it'll go somewhere.  It's completely different if you know you're not even going to have a 'W' to back up that unpopular vote.

70 Hmm I wonder what the news would be about if Bush had started bombing a country without congressional approval, lied about how long the mission would last, and then when the dictator of said country was deposed, he was sodomized with a stick, executed by shooting him in the head, and then paraded around in the street dead to rot for peoples amusement? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?

71 Does the stupid muslim ban on interest really hurt them?

I thought they got around that by just charging a "fee" which magically turned out to be equal to 4%, or whatever the interest charge would have been.

72 Muslims uprise when they think the wrong muslims are in charge.  They replace the muzzies with other muzzies that suck just as bad as the previous ones, just in a different way.

73

Chances of this ending well?

About the same as a Colts comeback this afternoon.

74 Hi moki. Did they tell you yet whether or not you will be required to get chemo or radiation? Posted by: Vic at October 24, 2011 03:18 PM (YdQQY) Hey Vic, No news. They did the biopsy thing last Wednesday, found the tumor up near my lungs, and I am waiting for the doc to call me back about what we do. He thinks he may be able to take it out without chemo at this point, but wanted to make sure the tumor hadn't gone into my lungs. How are you doing? How many sessions have you had so far? Any treats we can send you that you would like?

75 Actually the entire Arab world could use some nice long-running civil wars to keep all the excitable young men preoccupied. As long as the oil still gets pumped, who cares.

Posted by: Mætenloch at October 24, 2011 03:11 PM (pAlYe)

The problem is when Russia and China decide to pull up chairs and start throwing money behind their own factions.

76 Posted by: 18-1 at October 24, 2011 03:18 PM (7BU4a)

I'd also like to point out that Japan went from a feudal system (The Shougnate) to an absolutist system (The Meiji Restoration) to a liberal system. They didn't jump from tribalism and warlords to democracy.

77
The House R's can do two things:

1. Be proactive.
2. Make news.

Which is kinda the same thing.

But the only time we see the Republicans is when they are reacting to something Obama & the Democrats are trying to do.

78 I don't know if these can ever be decent societies.

Sure they can. Evacuate all the rational people first, then kill all the Islamists.

79 Obama always manages to keep the best interests of the Muslim Brotherhood in mind... 'cause he sure as shit doesn't care for America's interests.

80 Voltaire was a skeptic, not a liberal,   Also, he never changed his socks

81 I'd also like to point out that Japan went from a feudal system (The Shougnate) to an absolutist system (The Meiji Restoration) to a liberal system. They didn't jump from tribalism and warlords to democracy. Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:21 PM (3tEVR) On the other hand, Shinto/buddhism is nowhere near as retrograde as Islam and they are a homogeneous people with shared cultural touchstones.

82 But the only time we see the Republicans is when they are reacting to something Obama & the Democrats are trying to do.

That may be a combination of a media hush-up and the candidates taking up 'all the oxygen.'

I would like to hear some more from Mr. Issa on F&F.

83 I would like to hear some more from Mr. Issa on F&F. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 24, 2011 03:24 PM (8y9MW) Waiting for the subpoenas to be answered. The results should be...amusing.

84 Posted by: SantaRosaStan, keeping it Real at October 24, 2011 03:22 PM (UqKQV)

What? Voltaire is considered one of the biggest proponents of liberalism of the entire Enlightenment period.

85 I don't know if these can ever be decent societies. Sure they can. Evacuate all the rational people first, then kill all the Islamists. Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at October 24, 2011 03:22 PM (1rHeD) There are decent people in these societies, but they are just as targeted as infidels would be. That may be why any "moderate" Muslims don't say anything. Raising their heads risks it getting shot/cut off.

86

We get to vote our thugs out. They have to kill theirs.

Funny how liberals consider both ways to be crimes against humanity.

87 Waiting for the subpoenas to be answered. The results should be...amusing.

So what's the over-under on the percentage of the documents that will still be redacted, despite the subpoena specifying non-redacted documents?  I'm thinking 55%, and would probably take the 'Over.'

88 Praise Jesus.

89

71 Does the stupid muslim ban on interest really hurt them?

I thought they got around that by just charging a "fee" which magically turned out to be equal to 4%, or whatever the interest charge would have been.

That's what the Banks here are doing....with their Muslim customers around the country.

90 There is no such thing as freedom without religious freedom.

91 So what's the over-under on the percentage of the documents that will still be redacted, despite the subpoena specifying non-redacted documents? I'm thinking 55%, and would probably take the 'Over.' Redacted or just plain shredded?

92 I imagine the new Islamist stateheads will use Israel as the scapegoat  to keep the peasants happy fighting a common enemy , while they set up their compounds and raid the treasuries.

93 While some of us kept saying we'd be worse off without Kaddafi.

Well, guess what.

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 24, 2011 03:18 PM (sqkOB)

Well don't forget that Gaddaffi caused A LOT of evil around the world over the years. So even if worse characters take control of Libya it's still not clear that they'll be as effective as Gaddaffi in creating global mischief. So I still say that we're ahead with Muamar dead.

94 Redacted or just plain shredded?

You say 'potato,' I say, 'hardy root vegetable.'

95 You got there first. That's what I get for reading the comments. But yes, we'll see flat-out despotism in these countries for a while, maybe military dictatorship, and then maybe they can make halting steps toward democracy.

Posted by: Vote joncelli/Cthulhu 2012 at October 24, 2011 03:15 PM (RD7QR)

There's a step missing.  One that resonates with the comment above about 622AD. From about that time until about 1400 Europe's Dark Age also witnessed the disintegration of the European tribes. "Tribes" got bigger and bigger and less clan oriented (outside of Ireland and Scotland).  The more fully integrated into the National Identity (French, English, Welsh....) the more functional the nation-state became. To the degree that these smaller ethnic nations merge into the bigger whole the stronger the Nation becomes.

In the United States the whole idea of clan membership was shattered when new immigrants arrived here. (Whole new tribes sprung up: Jacksonians, Jeffersonians etc...but that's a different topic)

That never happened on the African continent including the Arab world. Iranians identify themselves first as Persians then _may_ speak of tribes or clans.  But they are Persians...everywhere else the clan comes first. Why did Ghaddafi and Saddam Hussein get pulled from hidey holes in their hometown? Clan.

96

The one thing I never, ever heard when all this started was any of this administration's principals extolling the virtues of freedom.

And I still don't hear it. What I do hear is the phrase, "democracy," which just means mob rule, which is what they pretty much have now, 'cept with a twist of barbaric Sharia thrown in for good measure.

They'll implode, and the sooner they do, the better for everybody. The problem is, they want to take all of us with them, us being the infidels and all.

97 95-lol!

98 Still, people like Louis XIV, Frederick the Great, Maria Theresa, Napoleon I, etc. did much more good for their states than bad.

That's debatable.  The French Revolution didn't occur because the sans culottes were bored.  It was because the "Sun King's" mercantilism and bureaucracy had turned France into a basket-case.  He was widely despised by the French people when he (eventually) died.

You know Voltaire, the famous Liberal philosopher? He HATED the idea of democracies, and thought that the only way humanity would ever progress was through liberal absolute monarchs. Just saying, absolutism does not mean anti-liberalism.

Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:19 PM (3tEVR)

Voltaire was precisely wrong in this as well.  The Hobbesian Leviathan theory has been discredited by the entirety of human history.  When you put power in the hands of one man, what you get ain't freedom.

99 How are you doing? How many sessions have you had so far? Any treats we can send you that you would like?

I'm doing fine so far. I have my second treatment Wed. This will continue every other week until some time in the Spring. Thank you but there is nothing I need right now. Actually I need to to cut down on the "treats".

And next week I am off the "restricted" period and I can go back to lifting more than 8 pounds and mowing grass. Hurray!

100 They sound a lot like democrats

101 77 The House R's can do two things:

1. Be proactive.
2. Make news.

Which is kinda the same thing.

But the only time we see the Republicans is when they are reacting to something Obama & the Democrats are trying to do.

If you're looking for what legislation they'll be voting-on week-to-week, go here.

102 Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:21 PM (3tEVR)

Japan had some minor tweaks to there government around 1945.

103

The one thing I never, ever heard when all this started was any of this administration's principals extolling the virtues of freedom.

And I still don't hear it

True.  And you never will hear it, because they don't believe in Freedom.  They believe in collectivism, and centralized power.  They believe that Freedom is something that is more bad than good, and that it must be "harnessed" or "reigned-in" in order not to do too much harm.

104 Voltaire was precisely wrong in this as well.  The Hobbesian Leviathan theory has been discredited by the entirety of human history.  When you put power in the hands of one man, what you get ain't freedom.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 24, 2011 03:31 PM (FkKjr)


I'm not saying that absolutism=freedom. I'm saying that absolutism /=/ anti-freedom.

Note Edward Gibbon's line on the "Five Good Emperors" of Rome.

"If a man were called to fix the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy and prosperous, he would, without hesitation, name that which elapsed from the death of Domitian to the accession of Commodus. The vast extent of the Roman Empire was governed by absolute power, under the guidance of virtue and wisdom. The armies were restrained by the firm but gentle hand of four successive emperors, whose characters and authority commanded respect. The forms of the civil administration were carefully preserved by Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian and the Antonines, who delighted in the image of liberty, and were pleased with considering themselves as the accountable ministers of the laws. Such princes deserved the honour of restoring the republic had the Romans of their days been capable of enjoying a rational freedom."

105 Proud member of the Campbell clan.

106 101-Yeah lawn mowing!!! Although, it should be winding down in your neck of the woods. We only have to mow every other week, here in the FL Panhandle. Don't get too crazy lifting stuff-just because you're not restricted doesn't mean start body building!!! (I say this because that is exactly what I tend to do.)

107 The first thing they're going to have to learn is the willful surrender of power, as demonstrated on the cross.

108 This ladies and gentlemen is what SMART Power!!!!111!!!eleventy looks like.

109 this is all a part of an evil master plan that is falling into place.   No. These are not the droids you're looking for.

110 Such princes deserved the honour of restoring the republic had the Romans of their days been capable of enjoying a rational freedom

I immediately distrust lines like that.  Why the assumption that the bulk of Romans were "[in]capable of enjoying a rational freedom?"  That tells me the author believes that a large number of people really cannot be trusted to determine their own fates- something that modern Liberals believe.

111 Don't get too crazy lifting stuff-just because you're not restricted doesn't mean start body building!!! (I say this because that is exactly what I tend to do.)

LOL, already promised wifey I would take it easy.

112 "In the short term, we get to watch them butcher each other, and of course occasionally butcher our own citizens."

*spikes football*

*does that girly little jog up the steps of Air Force One*

*stops to do 18 holes*

113 J -- stop trying to impress the professor.   Only morons are listening..........

114 98 The one thing I never, ever heard when all this started was any of this administration's principals extolling the virtues of freedom.

And I still don't hear it. What I do hear is the phrase, "democracy," which just means mob rule, which is what they pretty much have now, 'cept with a twist of barbaric Sharia thrown in for good measure.

All Obama is concerned with is that he gets the opportunity to brag about helping to bring-down another dictator. He could really care less about long-term consequences- it's all about how it helps him in the here and now.

115

We could avoid much of the strife in the ME if we would use our own energy rescources.  Drill, baby, drill

Of course there's always that terrorist thing, and I have to remember that we have absolutely no idea how many of these barbarians are sitting around in the US waiting for the "go" signal.

Remember.  The muzzies don't want to just rule the ME, they want to have a world caliphate.

116

They believe that Freedom is something that is more bad than good, and that it must be "harnessed" or "reigned-in" in order not to do too much harm.

They also know they wouldn't be in power, which is what they really want inside the center of their black heart of hearts.

Funny how this seems to be a recurring theme pretty much worldwide these days, folks (psychopaths, really, they don't qualify as human anymore) just wanting to keep boots on necks. If I were more religious than I am, I'd say we were warned about this a couple of milennia ago...

117 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 24, 2011 03:38 PM (8y9MW)

I immediate;y began to distrust Gibbon on Roman history when he blamed the fall of Rome on the Christians.

118 The first thing they're going to have to learn is the willful surrender of power, as demonstrated on the cross.

It's really amazing to me how much of our culture depends on Christianity (specifically) and Judaism (both directly and indirectly), and yet how maligned both are.

119 You want Hobbes?  I've give you Hobbes:  "Hell is truth seen too late."

120 You say our system is the only one that really works but look at that 14 year old who was out without a male relative, corrupted those OWS protesters, and probably will be released without any charges.

121 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 24, 2011 03:38 PM (8y9MW)

Gibbon was writing at a time in which the dominant view of Roman history was that it had fallen into a moral decline that rendered its citizens lazy and corrupt, thus incapable of ruling themselves.

And really, are you saying that people are always capable of ruling themselves? If so, why do the Arabs have such shitty governments? Sometimes people ARE incapable of ruling themselves.

122 Yeah, it's really none of my business what goes on in Libya. Do no harm, do right by your people, and don't come to the attention of the big boys. Libyans are happy right now and I'm happy for them.

123

Someone upthread mentioned the "cheering for the Arab Spring protestors" that was going on around the country, back when that was going on.

The interesting thing to me.....was that it took 18 Days of protesting in Egypt, to remove Mubarek.

It gave me visions of thousands of RVs, trailers and pick-up trucks.....circling the White House, protesting the SCoaMF. ....And wondering if we could accomplish the same thing in 18 days.

124 "He would also ban banks from charging interest. " Sounds like something from the "occupy whatever" crowd. Maybe they should all move to Libya. I'm pretty sure the foot slurping perv, and the trash who had sex with the 14 year old, would be all for polygamy. And the fact that large numbers of people in Libya don't have much in materials goods should be fine with the occupy types who despise greed and wealth. They should be able to live very happily with filthy poverty in Libya.

125 when he blamed the fall of Rome on the Christians.

Good lord.  Really?
I like the Aqueducts theory of the fall of Rome better.  (Aqueducts and plumbing were largely lead, only the rich tended to have their own plumbing.  The aristocrats, including the royal families, all got stoopid because they had indoor plumbing).

126 I immediately distrust lines like that.  Why the assumption that the bulk of Romans were "[in]capable of enjoying a rational freedom?"

I read a line like that in the Road to Serfdom recently -- that there was a significant portion of the population that didn't really do anything positive with their freedom. The follow-up was that if you try to make those people do something with their lives, you'll invariably get in the way of the truly productive ones.

If it had been me writing it instead of Hayek, it would have been written: "There are slackers. They're the price you pay for in innovators."

127 It gave me visions of thousands of RVs, trailers and pick-up trucks.....circling the White House, protesting the SCoaMF. ....And wondering if we could accomplish the same thing in 18 days.

One word, Jericho

128 Sharia Law?  Never heard of it!

129 The Muslim Brotherhood seems to be gaining ground in all these newly 'liberated' countries, though.

Funny how the Muslim Brotherhood keeps benefitting each time we commit or withdraw troops or support.

Pure coincidence, I'm sure.

Posted by: t-bird at October 24, 2011 03:18 PM (FcR7P)

And the MFM refers to them as international political "wins" for Barry

130 One word, Jericho

When the walls fell.

131 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 24, 2011 03:43 PM (8y9MW)

I'm pretty sure the "lead poisoning" theory has been discredited.

As for Gibbon's view, I think he's definitely wrong-- Rome fell because of bad economic policies and a weakened central government. Too much military spending, too little income from conquest, inflation from debasing the coinage, Hadrian's military reforms leading to a military aristocracy, Constantine's "employment reforms," etc.

132 Sometimes people ARE incapable of ruling themselves.

I disagree.  I believe they're always capable.  I just believe they are often trained not to, or are poorly disposed to shouldering the costs involved.

I also believe that it is easy, at least for a short time, to convince "the people" that you will cure all the injustices (like cows not giving milk) they face, and use that populism to sweep out the last tyrant.

That's not the same as people ruling themselves.

133 Religious middle easterners stuck in the 13th century are soooooo stupid.. They should catch up to the future now with our pseudo messianic leader-crony capitalism like with JP Morgan-Government war on business-government make work jobs-militant unionism-progressive race baiters trying to manipulate the vote- entirely fraudulent media. So jokes aside the left is stuck in the past and it appears their gravity drug us down with them.

134 Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:34 PM (3tEVR)

Even during Pax Romana, violations of personal rights (and execution by decree) were commonplace, corruption was rampant, and crime was everywhere.  By modern (which is to say, post-Enlightenment) standards it would suck to live there. 

And when it got to Commodus things went very sour very fast.  There was no protection from that happening and no recourse for the poor souls stuck under him.  And chaos followed his death.

It's no coincidence that several decades after the first crop of absolute kings revolutions started sweeping through Europe.  Their brand of Mercantilism and autocracy didn't work.

135 I like the Aqueducts theory of the fall of Rome better. (Aqueducts and plumbing were largely lead, only the rich tended to have their own plumbing. The aristocrats, including the royal families, all got stoopid because they had indoor plumbing). Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 24, 2011 03:43 PM (8y9MW) More likely it was simple inbreeding. For reference, see the Hapsburgs and their jaws.

136 I'm pretty sure the "lead poisoning" theory has been discredited.

Me, too.  I just think it makes more sense than blaming Christianity.  Indeed, that was the point of the comment.  Of the two incredible (un-credible?) theories, I prefer the lead poisoning theory as making more sense.

137 Rome fell because [...]

Given the horrible mismanagement that it faced at times, it's amazing that Rome lasted as long as it did.

138 "the people of these lands are probably going to have to learn all the lessons of history that the West learned.." I.e., they'll have to convert to Christianity.

139 Rome fell because [...] of hope and change

140
Even during Pax Romana, violations of personal rights (and execution by decree) were commonplace, corruption was rampant, and crime was everywhere.  By modern (which is to say, post-Enlightenment) standards it would suck to live there. 

It's no coincidence that several decades after the first crop of absolute kings revolutions started sweeping through Europe.  Their brand of Mercantilism and autocracy didn't work.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 24, 2011 03:46 PM (FkKjr)


To be fair, the Roman system was screwed up BEFORE the Empire as well. The last hundred years of the Roman Republic were filled with civil war and corruption.

During High Rome, there was corruption and absolutism, but their economy boomed, as they produced amazing buildings and culture.

And again, I'm not saying absolutism is the best system, or even that it works in the long run, I'm just saying it's not ALWAYS to be avoided. Absolutism is very often better than Tribalism.

141 Rome fell because [...]

Given the horrible mismanagement that it faced at times, it's amazing that Rome lasted as long as it did.

Of course, I'm more-or-less a Biblical Literalist, and so believe Rome fell because God decreed that it would in a prophetic dream to one of the Babylonian kings (Xerxes?  Artaxerxes?  Darius? I can never remember which).  But that's just me.

142 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 24, 2011 03:50 PM (8y9MW)

That was King Neb.'s dream, interpreted by Daniel.

143

((((:~{>

_____|\__________________
|
|♪  ♫  Spring-time for Is-lam and Mo-hamm-ed.  ♫ ♪
|♪  ♫  Win-ter for Is-rael and Jews.  ♫ ♪
|
| Come-on everybody, sing!
| Sing or I KEEEEL you!
| I just can't wait until Sharia turns Libya into economic power house that Iran is
|
| What?
|_________________________

 

144 anybody remember what the angel said about Ishmael?

145 Are we about to enter a new Dark Ages?  A world without iPods and smart phones?  Stay tuned....

146 Absolutism is very often better than Tribalism.

And that's probably true, if only because it brings more people together under an autocrat- making it harder to prevent (even accidentally) innovation.

Tribes were basically very small absolute monarchies, after all.

147 That was King Neb.'s dream, interpreted by Daniel.

See, told you I could never remember.  But, you're right: King Nebanotevengoingtotrytospellitrightnow.

148 anybody remember what the angel said about Ishmael?

The part about him becoming a great nation himself?  Or another part?

149 "I think that democracy, for this part of the world, will only come after a long series of violent spasms and failures." Ace, I think you're deluding yourself. With the coming Technological Singularity (creation of above human intelligence AI, which can then increase its own intelligence exponentially) -- the creation of God, in essence -- there simply won't be enough time for the Arab and Persian nations to develop liberal democracy. And liberal democracy itself was only a politosociobiological stepping point away from natural selection biological evolution, to memetically (meme) guided biological and technological evolution, to the the next stage which is technological evolution itself. It was 2 billion years between single celled organisms and multi celled, and 14 years between the PC and Internet. And don't even get me started on the jumps between rotary dialed telephones to voice regognition mobile video smart phone computers. Humans had a good run of it, but we are nearly done as a species, having served our purpose. PARADOXICALLY -- the primitive peoples, including Arabs, would have kept our species viable many centuries more. It was the advanced and enlightened and our liberal democracy and scientific freedom of inquiry that both made the world a better place to live, and will kill our grandchildren.

150 When the hero of your faith carries a sword, you can only be so willing to put up with the give-and-take of representative democracy.

151

Yeah, given all the famines, plagues, hostile tribes on one side, hostile Persians on another, it was kind of all over at least by the time the Huns drove the Goths onto Rome's doorstep.  (Yeah, the Goths gave Romans nightmares, and they were no match for the Huns.  Fun times.)

As far as Christianity-- well, the early Christians and Jews were a kind of fifth column in the Empire, since they wouldn't accept the deification of the Emperors, or worship Roman gods, or otherwise assimilate religiously.

Granted, the Empire then decided to persecute the living crap out of them, instead of reforming or granting exceptions, so yeah.

(And don't get me started on the conversion to Christianity-- and its purges, followed by returns to paganism-- and its purges, followed by another re-Christianization-- and, well, you get the idea.  Separating Church and State-- no matter how much controversy involved when even invoking the phrase-- was a really really good idea.)

152

Interesting enough, Europe went through a period of Religious wars, just prior to the advent of the Republic period... a series of religious wars which crippled  the power of Catholicism, and fractured the idea of a single religious institution.

Islam, although split into factions, is still more unified by hatred of the West, than they are currently split by religious differences... and when you have a Religious leader who can TELL you how you should vote? you do not have a Democracy, and when Religious Law trumps Secular Law, you do not have a Republic.

IMO, the Middle East is nowhere near ready for a democracy... and won't be for a couple of generations...

153 Rome fell because [...]

'Rome' fell in 1453 because the Ottomans conquered them.

154 146 anybody remember what the angel said about Ishmael?

"He shall be a wild donkey of a man,
   his hand against everyone
   and everyoneÂ’s hand against him,
and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen."

155 Separating Church and State-- no matter how much controversy involved when even invoking the phrase-- was a really really good idea.

Posted by: Lance McCormick at October 24, 2011 03:56 PM (zgHLA)


You know, the funny thing was, Marcus Aurelius persecuted the Christians precisely BECAUSE he believed in a diverse society of multiple religions and philosophies... and thought the Christians were a threat to such a thing.

156 Rome fell because [...]

of George Bush of course.

157 I am always surprised by the women's rights groups lack of comment.  The same groups that are OUTRAGED! at conservative christianity... because of something.

158 'Rome' fell in 1453 because the Ottomans conquered them.

I kick my ottoman every now and then just to keep it in its place.

159

Back to the subject at hand, Islam needs a Reformation.  Part of the problem is that while the Bible can be re-interpreted, and elements debated (since it was written by men and inspired by God), the Koran can't, since it was given to Mohammed by Allah directly. 

You can argue with Moses's recollection, but it's a lot harder to argue with God's own words.

160 161
That's definitely not nice!

161 When they said, "No Blood for Oil!" what they really meant was "No Blood for Oil for America!"

Otherwise, it's cool to kill so the Euros can have their cheap oil. And hell-hole dictators are cool too as long as they keep the cheap oil flowing to Europe.

But, by all means, let's keep relying on ME oil

So: Did you hear Perry was soft on illegal immigration?!!!

162 164
That reminds me. It was uncontrolled immigration that killed Rome. All those Germans and Goths.

163

Since y'all went OT and brought up F&F check out what it's like to be at war with the monster behind that: http://tinyurl.com/6es6yj5

A week ago Friday, I decided to have some new business cards made up at Staples. Dropping off the image, I was told that they would be ready Saturday morning. So, after I left the AGCA gun show early to visit with my daughter Zoe before she returned to college, about mid-day on the way home I stopped by to pick them up.

I observed to the counter guy that it looked like the whole order wasn't there. He told me that someone had asked to see the order earlier representing himself as my "business partner" and had taken a few, saying that I wouldn't mind.

Uh, huh. Of course, I have no business partner and no one knew that I had ordered the cards but me and Staples. The description of the "guy in a suit and sunglasses" was sufficiently vague and I had to get going to see my daughter off so I didn't immediately demand to see the manager and the surveillance tapes. In retrospect, David Codrea, among others, has beat me up about this and he and they are probably right.

164 158 Separating Church and State-- no matter how much controversy involved when even invoking the phrase-- was a really really good idea.

Posted by: Lance McCormick at October 24, 2011 03:56 PM (zgHLA)


You know, the funny thing was, Marcus Aurelius persecuted the Christians precisely BECAUSE he believed in a diverse society of multiple religions and philosophies... and thought the Christians were a threat to such a thing.

Posted by: J at October 24, 2011 03:58 PM (3tEVR)

Yeah, the ancients' versions of freedom of religion were different from our own.  By all accounts, Romans were tolerant of other beliefs, adopted conquered peoples' gods into their own pantheon at times, and at least recognized local deities' powers in their own realm.

Then they see the Jews and Christians, who don't want any part of polytheism, won't participate in sacrifices, etc. (i.e. willfully commit treason against the State), and things get messy.

165 My only regret is that the Crusaders never finished the job. Slackers.

166

Yeah, the ancients' versions of freedom of religion were different from our own.  By all accounts, Romans were tolerant of other beliefs, adopted conquered peoples' gods into their own pantheon at times, and at least recognized local deities' powers in their own realm.

Posted by: Lance McCormick at October 24, 2011 04:05 PM (zgHLA)

Roman notions of religion were very different in general.  Their religions were complicated superstitions.  Before some wiseass says all religion is like that, it isn't.  Eastern religions (Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism) include codified ways to live a 'good' life to attain meaningful fulfillment.  The Romans didn't have that.  You sacrificed to gods not for forgiveness, but to keep them from eating you.  You watched where birds flew to see if it meant Apollo favored your decision.  It was Obsessive Compulsive behavior.

So it's no wonder they adopted other peoples' superstitions.  It wasn't tolerance, it was accepting on face value that gods in other lands could kill them.

167 Thankfully preserved because the place where civilization could have should have found these critical philosophical works the Great Library in Egypt, was destroyed..

Don't forget about the Library of Baghdad. How many days did the river run black with ink?

168 Good lord.  Really?

Yes he did. And most historians that I have read blamed the fall on their use of mercenaries in the Army instead of citizens. In fact, the Vandals were mercenaries to begin with.

When you invite in an army sooner or later that army controls you. All that being said, there is one new theory making its rounds out there that I read a "paper" on that Rome did not actually fall. It morphed into the feudalism of the middle ages and split apart into separate "countries".

169 In fact, the Vandals were mercenaries to begin with.

Doing the jobs Romans wouldn't do.

170 I recall it being more like all conquered peoples had to pay a tax to the Roman temples tied to making sacrifices to the Roman gods and the god-emperor but were allowed to keep their local religions as long as they paid. The Jews were exempt because they could point to their being monotheists for 1000s of years before Rome's rise but the Christians were looked upon as being tax dodgers because theirs was a 'new' religion.

171 the Christians were looked upon as being tax dodgers

Circumcision dodgers, too.

172 O/T: We may see a TV adaptation of Stephen King's, "The Dark Tower" saga, after all.

http://tinyurl.com/42xbgug

173 Friggin' sock.

174 Wait, so are they banning polygamy or not?

175 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

176

When assessing the fall of Rome, most people tend to ignore the fact that what it meant to be "Roman" changed pretty significantly over several hundred years, the Eastern Empire continued to exist a thousand years after the Western Empire disapppeared, and the "barbarians" were both considerably more sophisticated than Roman writers would have you believe and changed over time from tribes to almost proto-medieval kingdoms.

Needless to say, most Roman troops were Roman (a lot were drawn from Gaul, which was as Roman as Montana is American), most of the Germans who served in the Roman army seem to have been quite loyal, they were quite capable soldiers right up through the end of the fifth century, and Gibbon was full of crap. I get a bit frustrated that the same old debunked myths keep persisting.

Right now the debate seems to be whether they collapsed because they constantly were at war with each other, or because the Goths managed to win at Adrianople, and the resulting domino effect led to the loss of Africa to the Vandals decades later. No Africa, no revenue, no army, no government. I think it may have been a bit of both.

177 Maybe someone should suggest to the Greeks or Italians that they could end their money troubles if they unleashed their inner Spartans and Romans and invaded some of these oil rich North African nations and seized them.

I sure hope the Jew-Boys get their shale oil and gas online soon.

178 Unexpected. Unexpected!

179 Meiczyslaw:
I read a line like that in the Road to Serfdom recently

I've been reading that book, too.  Man, Hayek is so awesome.  The man is a prophet.

I think the right has gotten somewhat de-railed by reading too much Ayn Rand and not enough Hayek.

180 What won't the "experts" be suprised by next.

181 This is my shocked face <[ : O

182 Ace--

I think you have it backwards.  They don't despise democracy because they despise us.  It's the other way around.  We inhabit a culture built on, among other things, independent thought and the free exchange of ideas.  This is anathema to the committed Islamic mind.  They cannot win the battle of ideas and, thus, must conquer us or their culture will languish -- as it has since the sixteenth century.

183 The Jihadi Spring continues as Emperor Soros has foreseen......

184

This is a public service announcement:

The Pottery Barn Rule has been suspended.

That is all.

185 Ace - you're wrong, and this is where an understanding of both Islam and its inextricable tie to the general history of the region comes in handy.

Islam, in its very foundation (both textually and demonstrably, as every act Mohammed undertook is *necessarily* a perfect act), calls for the forced conversion, subjugation, or elimination of all non-believers.  In the Hadith, Mohammed is recorded as saying that after "believing in Allah" and the Hajj, the most important thing a Muslim can do is engage in jihad.  And, if one is not killed in jihad (and thus go straight to paradise), one will come home laden with "booty."  I know Muslims like to say you really can't understand the Koran or the Hadith unless you read it in Arabic, but I've never seen one even *try* to explain how there's a translation subtlety that makes such a proclamation of reward from jihad NOT about physical war and, instead, about "inner struggle."

Next, Islam was never infected with Western egocentrism and the poison of the so-called Enlightenment that sought to elevate man above God.  Thus, they have a powerful *worldview* (the correct one, from a Christian perspective), coupled with a devastatingly evil belief system.  Thus, whatever radical egocentrism that allows republicanism/democracy, or what have you, to continue to put-put along the slow road to humanistic totalitarianism isn't going to even get a foot hold in the Muslim nations.  They don't worship the self, as the West does, they worship a demon they've called Allah.  Their cultural nexus is one of selflessness - even if they're really no different on an individual basis.  That is why ANY expectation of "eventual democracy" is wasted.  Not because they're genetically evil, but because the belief system that grips that region is, truly, evil, but addresses the world with a correct worldview.  That's a very dangerous combination.

The history of the Muslim nations is replete with examples of periods of time of relative "peace" and "tolerance."  Usually, this came with a weakening of Islamic fervor - a breaking down in their faith.  Even Western-style selfishness and egocentrism is better than Islam.  In the end, however, there is always a resurgence of *actual* Islamic faith, resulting in increased violence and oppression toward and of non-believers.  That's all we're seeing now - the return of *actual* Islam.

And, I'm sorry to say, classical liberalism has evidenced the fact that it is only the slow march to humanist dictatorship that has, not surprisingly, merely seen an acceleration under Obama.  At the same time, there can be no doubt that our *system* is NOT inherently superior.  We merely started on the ruins of a fading culture that was superior to begin with and our system of government has been sliding down as our culture has.

the sinner,

Patrick

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190 They're not stupid because they're Islamists - they're Islamists because they're stupid.