February 25, 2011
— Ace As I said, my main problem with actually doing it is the Arab desire for scapegoats and blame-shifting. "It's my nature," said the scorpion.
One thing I just do not understand: When did the US decide, collectively but silently and all at once, that we could no longer arm indigenous fighters? That's what we did for decades. We didn't join the fighting in a lot of places, but we did fly in guns and ammo.
Why is that off the table now?
I suppose it is because of 9/11. When we arm indigenies, we're on the hook for everything they do with the weapons, and they will almost certainly blow up civilians in what is either an actual terrorist attack or a vicious guerrilla attack which is hard to differentiate from a terror attack. We've got a lot of moral stock in the idea that we're different, so we don't do that.
But it has to be confessed that that is a really, really, really good solution we keep ignoring for that one reason.
So Stupid! CNN's commenters thought Palin's suggestion was so stupid it should not have even have been reported.
I suppose now they will add nuance to their claim -- three days ago it was stupid, but the situation has changed so dramatically that only now is the suggestion humane and brilliant.
Posted by: Ace at
01:17 PM
| Comments (108)
Post contains 247 words, total size 2 kb.
Posted by: maverick muse at February 25, 2011 01:21 PM (H+LJc)
1. Palin brought this up THREE DAYS AGO, right after the first noted incidents happened.
2. As of this morning, the rebels have supposedly taken the air bases within the country, meaning no more jet attacks. There could still be helo attacks, but I severely doubt it.
Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at February 25, 2011 01:21 PM (bxvFd)
Posted by: Schwalbe : The © at February 25, 2011 01:22 PM (UU0OF)
"Just" distribute Colt 1911A's to anywhere burkas are common.
If life isn't too oppressive, nothing happens. But impromptu stonings and "religious police" whacking people for showing an ankle becomes a lot riskier.
The march for rights out of the Dark Ages started with the right to defend oneself, well before universal suffrage. And that's actually one of the missing elements in the Middle East.
Posted by: Al at February 25, 2011 01:23 PM (MzQOZ)
Posted by: Union Thugs at February 25, 2011 01:23 PM (c45xH)
Who are Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden?
Wait, that wasn't a Jeopardy clue...
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 01:24 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Jay in Ames at February 25, 2011 01:24 PM (UEEex)
Posted by: USS Diversity at February 25, 2011 01:26 PM (DLxD/)
Posted by: President-elect Sarah Palin at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (l4J9G)
Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (nj1bB)
Posted by: BDJ at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (cUNcx)
Why don't we just let Sarah make the decisions from her living room in Wasilla for the next two years. She's doing it anyway and it cuts down on the lag time.
And people think I don't have the smarts to be president???
Posted by: Sarah Palin at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (zgZzy)
Three days ago, Sarah P. demanded there be a 'no fly zone' established over Libya so as to prevent the Libyan Air Force from strafing Libyan citizens.
Who is leading here??????
Posted by: alwyr at February 25, 2011 01:28 PM (w2++y)
Posted by: Jay in Ames at February 25, 2011 01:28 PM (UEEex)
Word. The people outside the cities hate the mullahs. Hate them. Don't give advice, don't even try to pick sides, just arm them up and let them have a go.
Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 01:29 PM (GTbGH)
That's a pretty big reason, acehole
Posted by: Johnny Bottomsley at February 25, 2011 01:29 PM (PKrl6)
Posted by: USA at February 25, 2011 01:30 PM (YZISw)
Posted by: Sarah Palin at February 25, 2011 05:22 PM (zgZzy)
Bunk.
Posted by: nickless at February 25, 2011 01:31 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:31 PM (7wmOW)
To be budget conscious lets just drop 45 Cal Liberators like we did in WWII
Posted by: Richard Blumenthal at February 25, 2011 01:31 PM (tf9Ne)
I think it's largely a bad idea because THEY HATE US. Giving them extra weapons isn't going to help that.
I do like the "Smash & Grab" theory of warfare. Go in, kill their leaders, tell them "Don't make us come back," and leave.
If you have to come back, you take it up a step: kill the new leadership, and destroy major infrastructure. Then say "Don't make us come back," and leave.
Continue escalating until their 8th Century minds figure out that getting on our bad side is not conducive to long life.
But. We won't do that either.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 01:33 PM (8y9MW)
Kill anyone who looks confused about what to do with them.
Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:34 PM (MQzSA)
The Libyan rebels however seem to have confiscated a bunch of guns, tanks, artillery and so on. Thus just our verbal support could mean something.
Of course, he didn't do that for Iranian protesters either.
Posted by: GnuBreed at February 25, 2011 01:35 PM (bvXGR)
Many of the al_Queda types were originally part of the anti-Soviet resistance in Afghanistan. I suppose that gives a lot of people pause.
We've got a lot of moral stock in the idea that we're different, so we don't do that.
Wow, it certainly is harder actually doing something as opposed to just sitting on the sidelines throwing spitballs. Who knew?
-BHO
Posted by: pep at February 25, 2011 01:36 PM (P18+/)
http://bit.ly/emMO82
Samples:
Bubba
Thank GOD she doesn't have any power. She wanted to send troops into Egypt, too. She's just nuts. Why do people listen to this drivel?
swagner
Implement a no-fly zone over another sovereign country? Nice, that way our military can be much closer when Gaddafi falls and we need to invade to save that country (our oil) from the war loving Muslims that will try to rise to power. All makes perfect sense in a sound bite world.
Greg Smith
Didn't realize that Palin could see Libya from her backyard.
and so on.....
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 25, 2011 01:37 PM (DsqGb)
Don't we have ways of killing people without anyone knowing we did it?
I mean, lets say a military base in tripoli just blows up inexplicably.
do we put MADE IN THE USA on all of our bombs and weapons?
Posted by: Ben at February 25, 2011 01:38 PM (DKV43)
Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (OlN4e)
Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (A9YyI)
obama will wait until events sort themselves out, then claim the result was the desired one
the gutless fuck
if those Libyans were unionized, obama would be on the situation like stink on a monkey
Posted by: BDJ at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (cUNcx)
Posted by: Fucktard McMoonbat at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (QvjLC)
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at February 25, 2011 01:40 PM (xdHzq)
Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at February 25, 2011 01:41 PM (A9YyI)
Posted by: USA at February 25, 2011 01:42 PM (YZISw)
Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:42 PM (OlN4e)
Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:43 PM (MQzSA)
Posted by: Al at February 25, 2011 01:43 PM (MzQOZ)
AC
I very glad that our elected President does not respond the Palin's rants and raves. Palin, her's a lesson, "know when to keep your mouth shut and when to speak" I encourage you to run for President. I want the world to know what an IDIOT you are, I want to see you embrass yourself and your family on National TV ok.
Dave
Palin is so stupid, and has no knowledge of world affairs. She just continues to make herself look bad. Yeah, she sells books, make millions but is worthless trash as the Tea Party and Conservatives love. She took 6 years to get a degree and is a huge failure. Shut up Palin.
Robert - Atlanta
Why does CNN think they have to cover every moronic statement from the former half-term Governor, current-nothing and future-even-less Alaskan chillbilly! Let her brain dead followers go to Facebook if they need her daily rant!
Peggy - TX
Blah-Blah-Blah Â…. STUPID assessment of current administration Â…. Blah-Blah-Blah STUPID one line zinger targeted at current administration Â… Blah-Blah Blah Â….STUPID suggestion on how she would better handle a current problem with a STUPID solution that shows her ignorance and is in fact STUPID as it is extraordinarily reckless and very likely to entangle America in anotherÂ’s sovereign nations affairs with long term STUPID repercussions that would most likely cost American lives.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 25, 2011 01:43 PM (DsqGb)
I would take out all air assets possible in a one time attack to put a stop to that. Nothing Flies.
Then only if massive slaughter of innocents - being killed by gov forces as needed. Hit them again to stop it but by air only.
That was my response to the vote (16 % said yes to air only) on the 21st - and now.........
Same as it ever was
Posted by: melvin at February 25, 2011 01:44 PM (3OCZw)
So should I denounce myself for not really giving a shit what happens in these 6th century hellholes? Let them all kill each other then take the oil fields. We should wait until the maximum number of dead islamists.
Too harsh?
Posted by: dagny at February 25, 2011 01:44 PM (5ZWTC)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 25, 2011 01:44 PM (QvjLC)
Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (nj1bB)
Posted by: curious at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (p302b)
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (xdHzq)
Posted by: sifty likes harsh at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (MQzSA)
Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:46 PM (7wmOW)
Like I said, HONEY BEAVER!
(My hubby's nickname for Palin after watching Honey Badger video)
You know what's funny, I always capitalize Honey Badger, but more times than not, I don't capitalize obama's name)
Posted by: momma at February 25, 2011 01:46 PM (penCf)
Either way, I'm thinking it's a shitburger.
Posted by: nickless at February 25, 2011 01:47 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:47 PM (MQzSA)
Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:48 PM (7wmOW)
nah. we just like a fair fight like in the John Wayne movies. More entertaining, plus we want to see Quadaffy take one between the eyes.
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at February 25, 2011 01:48 PM (xdHzq)
Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:49 PM (nj1bB)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 25, 2011 01:49 PM (QMtmy)
Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:50 PM (nj1bB)
And I understood the reverse. Maybe I shouldn't have said the mullahs when I meant the central government. They may like their own mullahs for all I know. What I meant was that, as I understand it, all the people in the countryside see of the central government is officials sent to tell them what to do and to eat out their substance.
Remember the earthquakes? The central government was useless then.
Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 01:50 PM (GTbGH)
Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (7wmOW)
Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (OlN4e)
Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (MQzSA)
and we captured millions of them in Iraq. Which I think we destroyed, duh.
Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (GTbGH)
So should I denounce myself for not really giving a shit what happens in these 6th century hellholes? Let them all kill each other then take the oil fields. We should wait until the maximum number of dead islamists.
Too harsh? Posted by: dagny
Undoubtedly not nuanced enough for any leftie, but not necessarily a bad option.
That said, I think the bigger case to be made is whoever figures out how to climb on top of the shithole must have something going for them. Those are the guys we 'make a deal' with. Something along the lines of, "If you guys protect and honor the current oil contracts, we don't bomb the living shit out of you."
Posted by: goldbricker esq at February 25, 2011 01:52 PM (S59+B)
You guys like Palin? You're stupid.
You can't come to our slumber party unless you say you hate her too.
Posted by: Mean Girls at February 25, 2011 01:52 PM (AnTyA)
Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:52 PM (MQzSA)
You can't come to our slumber party unless you say you hate her too.
Posted by: Mean Girls at February 25, 2011 05:52 PM (AnTyA)
Is there a sloppy blowjob in it for me?
Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:53 PM (OlN4e)
In fact, let the whole region go to pot. (But arm Israel to the teeth so they can defend themselves)
Then, when the caliphate is established and advancing on Europe, when half of Britain has become Muslim and is bowing east five times a day, when it's clear to all the dipweeds in the U.S. and elsewhere that radical Islam IS A THREAT, we'll just go ahead and take care of business.
Posted by: Sphynx at February 25, 2011 01:53 PM (fEmj2)
Fuck man, what are you doing? Trying for some kind of thread perfecta?
Leave some for the rest of us, dude!
Posted by: goldbricker esq at February 25, 2011 01:54 PM (S59+B)
True. However, once having toppled the regime and taken over the wealth provided by the local oil fields, they can afford things bigger than an AK-47. Or grenades.
All I'm saying is that arming people who will (beyond any reasonable doubt) be our enemies should really be avoided, if it's practical.
I'll even go so far as to say that with AQ v USSR and Iraq v Iran, we really didn't have any other practical options.
I will also point out, though, that the protesters are winning without our help- which won't stop them from trying to buy ICMBs to attack us, but at least it means we won't have helped them do it.
But, again, my preferred option is Smash and Grab.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 01:55 PM (8y9MW)
I thought it was the opposite, the citiified people hated the mullahs while the poorer people in rural areas supported them.
There's the biggest problem. If you drop guns and ammo into the middle of nowhere, you have no real control over who gets them, what they use them for, and how committed they are (Tora Bora, anyone?). The reason we prefer to use our own troops is that they'll follow orders which gives us some influence over how things go and ultimately turn out.
That being said, if the muslim days of rage are hitting Iraq, too (what the hell do they have to protest at this point?), I think we have to conclude that civilizing the Middle East just isn't possible and we're going to have to engage in more Roman alternatives.
Posted by: Methos at February 25, 2011 01:55 PM (Ew1k4)
Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:56 PM (7wmOW)
Posted by: Jawan Wa'ayen at February 25, 2011 01:58 PM (rrkE9)
I like Palin.
It's fratricide in Libya between a bunch of groups and tribes that all hate us since The Barbary pirates got their asses handed to them at Derne, hate or floggin' guts.
Red on Red smells like victory to me. Let them kill each other.
Posted by: HEP-T at February 25, 2011 02:00 PM (LH8Ok)
I don't want to see another massive population of AK47 toating Islamics, no.
All that is needed is for US to drop an M80 or a cherry bomb and a string of black cats. They will fold like a paper napkin and teh one will be a hero. Then when its over we airdrop some water food and porn.
Posted by: melvin at February 25, 2011 02:00 PM (3OCZw)
I think of that as a feature, not a bug. Our prognostication ability has been poor anyway. Iran is a cancer, let it go all warlord and thunderdome.
In 2004 I laid out the Tobias Took plan for disrupting Iran on one of these threads. It would not take much to get rid of the government there. It's a small, backward country and I'm frankly astonished that we've been willing, not forced btw but willing, to eat their shit for 30 fucking years.
Don't get me started on Cuba, post USSR either.
Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 02:00 PM (GTbGH)
Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 02:02 PM (nj1bB)
All hail the UNSC's resolution on Libya!
Which should be forthcoming, well, any time now, I suppose.
Posted by: ErikW at February 25, 2011 02:03 PM (ASYVq)
@27 -
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 05:33 PM (8y9MW)
Damn good point!
Posted by: SomewhereSouthWest at February 25, 2011 02:04 PM (CyPWX)
Upding!
One - Something's got to give
Two - Something's got to give
Three - Something's got to give
Now
Let the bodies hit the floor
Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 02:05 PM (GTbGH)
It's a truly fucking terrible idea that's going to come back and bone us to death. (See arguments against "Islamic terrorism is a reaction to poverty" to find out why.)
Posted by: oblig. at February 25, 2011 02:05 PM (xvZW9)
How does that relate to 9/11? Ahmed Shah Masood's troops were as much a foe of the Taliban as they were of the Soviets.
Posted by: 18-1 at February 25, 2011 02:06 PM (bgcml)
You can take a shower afterward.
Posted by: curious at February 25, 2011 02:09 PM (p302b)
Let's review
The USA bailed out Moslems in ..
Lebenon
Somalia
Kosovo
Kuwait
Saudi
Iraq
Afghanistan
And they still fracking HATE US!!!
Let'em burn their own house down
If Libya gets all crazy, bomb they, observe, and repeat as necessary
Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at February 25, 2011 02:11 PM (vrDK+)
Posted by: curious at February 25, 2011 05:45 PM (p302b)
That didn't just start recently. I remember watching Nightline in the 80s when they had a discussion of the shitty state of education in the country (they'd beg for it now I'm sure). One of the guests was Leon Botstein from Bard College and he looked and sounded like the dumbest fucking pinheaded twat on the show. Subsequently I heard him speak in person and was blown away at how intelligent and eloquent he was. I was left to conclude that the medium of television almost makes it impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation because it forces people to do what you said above. It really doesn't lend itself to involved complex discussions.
Posted by: Captain Hate at February 25, 2011 02:12 PM (F9JPD)
Ugh. We're talking about two different countries and not being specific about which we mean. I don't think we should dump weapons into Libya as the 'protesters' don't need them and their long term motivations are dubious (the fact that the Iranian leadership is egging them on suggests nothing good). I don't see the point of a no fly zone (sorry, Sarah) as this thing is going to be over by the time we could impose one.
In Iran, I guess one could argue chaos is bad for the regime and good for us as we can't get much worse than an apocalyptically motivated regime. I'm just not sure if it's feasible. I doubt at this point they'd let us overfly their territory unchallenged and then we're at war with them anyway. And since they've been funneling weapons into Iraq for the last decade, they've probably spent some time planning for how they'd counter an effort on our part to return the favor.
Posted by: Methos at February 25, 2011 02:16 PM (Ew1k4)
Posted by: BuddyPC at February 25, 2011 02:26 PM (nSkOL)
Posted by: Methos
The idea would be that if they had to concentrate more time and energy on fighting an insurrection at home, they would have less time and energy to foment trouble beyond their borders. Someday the rule of the Mullahs will end in Iran, but it probably won't be tomorrow, or even next year. But it's not hopeless, like Tibet. The Iranian Qods force was waging a covert war on the US Army and Marines in Iraq, and I say it is well past time to start returning the favor.
But the Obama junta does not think like that and of course they will do nothing to make that happen.
Likewise, any kind of covert action to support any kind of identifiable faction that we would favor in Libya is not going to happen. That's not how our present government rolls. They actually cannot publicly articulate a coherent foreign policy or policy objectives.
Like I read elsewhere a few days ago:
We know what the Bush Doctrine was.
What is the Obama Doctrine? Do they have any kind of publicly articulated doctrine other than apologizing for alleged Western imperialism (whatever that is in this day of post monarchy politics)?
They are a collection of weak-minded children in the bodies of adults masquerading as a government while mouthing the standard leftist political tropes of the last +30 years. That's why the
Make Believe Media loves them, because the both believe in the same fairy tales.
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes.... at February 25, 2011 02:44 PM (sJTmU)
Posted by: Adobe Walls at February 25, 2011 02:55 PM (lUiZg)
Posted by: sherlock at February 25, 2011 02:59 PM (thr9V)
Posted by: BuddyPC at February 25, 2011 06:26 PM (nSkOL)
I don't know. They totally ignored Sudan pretty effectively. I was impressed.
Posted by: iknowtheleft at February 25, 2011 06:27 PM (G/MYk)
Great point; they even had Mia Farrow hectoring them to get off their dead asses and assist in a humanitarian crisis and it didn't do a damn thing to change their apathy. Fucksticks will be fucksticks.
Posted by: Captain Hate at February 25, 2011 03:00 PM (F9JPD)
Because guns and ammo kill babies, polar bears and small pebbles and other living creatures.
Posted by: leftie mcmoonbat flower wind rush at February 25, 2011 03:04 PM (7H/n0)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC at February 25, 2011 03:19 PM (HYre9)
#104
Yup.
... and watch the International Press cover The Arctic Fox when she keynotes the big convention in India's Capital next month ..... she definitely impressed PM Singh back in 08 ..... the woman is a Force of Nature folks ...
Time people started seriously thinking about backing the only leader with the STEEL SPINE necessary to turn this country around and head it AWAY from the cliff ....
Posted by: exodus2011 at February 25, 2011 03:45 PM (xmHmT)
Posted by: frode at February 25, 2011 04:23 PM (1m2f3)
Posted by: Meg Mass at February 25, 2011 04:55 PM (f4Ndo)
Posted by: ThePalinExpress at February 26, 2011 05:21 AM (uW+NQ)
... and watch the International Press cover The Arctic Fox when she keynotes the big convention in India's Capital next month ..... she definitely impressed PM Singh back in 08 ..... the woman is a Force of Nature folks ...
Time people started seriously thinking about backing the only leader with the STEEL SPINE necessary to turn this country around and head it AWAY from the cliff ....
I'd love to be a fly on the wall as soon as she meets Al Gore. Alaskans demand answers.
Posted by: ThePalinExpress at February 26, 2011 05:23 AM (uW+NQ)
Saw a lot of sneering by Ivy League and MSM types at the very concept democracy could be 'exported' and Bush was universally portrayed as a pathetic dreamer, idealogue, etc. Most interesting of all was this squib about the brilliant strategy of Teh One:
"It's understandable that the neocons are confused. Like the Neanderthals wandering a human world in Jean Auel's novels, they're dangerously out of date. What Goldberg doesn't understand is that a new, more modern goal underlies Obama's more sophisticated effort to achieve democracy around the world -- constitutionalism."
Talk about a WTF moment!
Posted by: alwyr at February 26, 2011 05:29 AM (w2++y)
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Posted by: maverick muse at February 25, 2011 01:19 PM (H+LJc)