February 25, 2011

Obama Considering Plan Palin? Seeking Advice on No-Fly Zone For Libya
— Ace

As I said, my main problem with actually doing it is the Arab desire for scapegoats and blame-shifting. "It's my nature," said the scorpion.

One thing I just do not understand: When did the US decide, collectively but silently and all at once, that we could no longer arm indigenous fighters? That's what we did for decades. We didn't join the fighting in a lot of places, but we did fly in guns and ammo.

Why is that off the table now?

I suppose it is because of 9/11. When we arm indigenies, we're on the hook for everything they do with the weapons, and they will almost certainly blow up civilians in what is either an actual terrorist attack or a vicious guerrilla attack which is hard to differentiate from a terror attack. We've got a lot of moral stock in the idea that we're different, so we don't do that.

But it has to be confessed that that is a really, really, really good solution we keep ignoring for that one reason.

So Stupid! CNN's commenters thought Palin's suggestion was so stupid it should not have even have been reported.

I suppose now they will add nuance to their claim -- three days ago it was stupid, but the situation has changed so dramatically that only now is the suggestion humane and brilliant.

Posted by: Ace at 01:17 PM | Comments (108)
Post contains 247 words, total size 2 kb.

1 Obama Planned Palinhood

Posted by: maverick muse at February 25, 2011 01:19 PM (H+LJc)

2

Iraq:  Bush's plan

Afghanistan:  Petreus' plan

Libya: Palin's plan

Everyone's a neocon now...

Posted by: Truman North at February 25, 2011 01:21 PM (8ay4x)

3 Given the further unification of Shiite clerics binding Iraq with Iran, I wondered which Muslim sect holds the majority in Libya, Sunni. I'd be surprised if China doesn't press for Libya's oil monopoly, having their feet in African mining already.

Posted by: maverick muse at February 25, 2011 01:21 PM (H+LJc)

4 Talk about a "barn door" moment.

1. Palin brought this up THREE DAYS AGO, right after the first noted incidents happened.

2. As of this morning, the rebels have supposedly taken the air bases within the country, meaning no more jet attacks.  There could still be helo attacks, but I severely doubt it.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at February 25, 2011 01:21 PM (bxvFd)

5 Hey Barry, how's my ass taste?

Posted by: Sarah Palin at February 25, 2011 01:22 PM (zgZzy)

6 Hard to do when for the 1st time in 31 years, we don't have a carrier in the Med. according to Ollie North. It just went through the Suez previous to the Iranians. I wonder if they waived at each other as they passed.

Posted by: Schwalbe : The © at February 25, 2011 01:22 PM (UU0OF)

7 To hell with just arming "indigenous fighters".

"Just" distribute Colt 1911A's to anywhere burkas are common.

If life isn't too oppressive, nothing happens. But impromptu stonings and "religious police" whacking people for showing an ankle becomes a lot riskier.

The march for rights out of the Dark Ages started with the right to defend oneself, well before universal suffrage. And that's actually one of the missing elements in the Middle East.

Posted by: Al at February 25, 2011 01:23 PM (MzQOZ)

8 President Twinkle-Toes better have at least 5 union members standing around making sure that the advising is being done properly, i.e. there are at least 5 meal breaks and regular quarter-hourly breaks taken in any 2-hour window of advising.

Posted by: Union Thugs at February 25, 2011 01:23 PM (c45xH)

9 Why is that off the table now?

Who are Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden?

Wait, that wasn't a Jeopardy clue...

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 01:24 PM (8y9MW)

10 RENT FREE

Posted by: 2 X 4 at February 25, 2011 01:24 PM (GTbGH)

11 Why is that off the table now? 2 items come to mind: Iran Contra and support of Hussein in Iran/Iraq. It always comes back to bite ya.

Posted by: Jay in Ames at February 25, 2011 01:24 PM (UEEex)

12 Let's round up every gang member and wanna-be, drop them into Tripoli, then tell them if they can fight their way into Khadaffy's bathroom we give them free land. Then we strafe them.

Posted by: USS Diversity at February 25, 2011 01:26 PM (DLxD/)

13 Barry, you've done such a bang up job here at the White House that I am going to honor your departure by having you exit by the same door the Dali Lama left the White House through. And could you grab the trash on your way out? >>> Why don't we just let Sarah make the decisions from her living room in Wasilla for the next two years. She's doing it anyway and it cuts down on the lag time.<<<

Posted by: President-elect Sarah Palin at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (l4J9G)

14 yes it always comes back to bite you -- but everything comes back to bite you. It's not as if a full invasion and peace-keeping mission in two farflung countries has been *cost-free* to us, either. Let's look at Iran. We're not going to invade. Why do we not start parachuting in guns and radios and maps and laser target designators (for use in combo with our jets, should we decide to take an active role)? Why are the only two options ALL or NOTHING? I don't like those options. Particularly since "ALL" is now off the table and all we are left with is nothing.

Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (nj1bB)

15

It's about a week too late for this idea

man it sucks having a dumbfuck as President

Posted by: BDJ at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (cUNcx)

16

Why don't we just let Sarah make the decisions from her living room in Wasilla for the next two years. She's doing it anyway and it cuts down on the lag time.

 

And people think I don't have the smarts to be president???

Posted by: Sarah Palin at February 25, 2011 01:27 PM (zgZzy)

17

Three days ago, Sarah P. demanded there be a 'no fly zone' established over Libya so as to prevent the Libyan Air Force  from strafing Libyan citizens.

Who is leading here??????


Posted by: alwyr at February 25, 2011 01:28 PM (w2++y)

18 I don't think it would be a bad thing to do, but when you are trying to legislate by hindsight, then you don't always do the right thing.

Posted by: Jay in Ames at February 25, 2011 01:28 PM (UEEex)

19 Let's look at Iran. We're not going to invade. Why do we not start parachuting in guns

Word.  The people outside the cities hate the mullahs.  Hate them.  Don't give advice, don't even try to pick sides, just arm them up and let them have a go.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 01:29 PM (GTbGH)

20 "But it has to be confessed that that is a really, really, really good solution we keep ignoring for that one reason."

That's a pretty big reason, acehole

Posted by: Johnny Bottomsley at February 25, 2011 01:29 PM (PKrl6)

21 If there was a Nobel Prize for "Seeking Advice and Talking" he'd have that one, too. Perhaps he'll appoint a Czar to keep studying the situation.

Posted by: USA at February 25, 2011 01:30 PM (YZISw)

22 Hey Barry, how's my ass taste?

Posted by: Sarah Palin at February 25, 2011 05:22 PM (zgZzy)


Bunk.

Posted by: nickless at February 25, 2011 01:31 PM (MMC8r)

23 Shit I say we arm both sides in Libya

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:31 PM (7wmOW)

24 "Just" distribute Colt 1911A's to anywhere burkas are common.

To be budget conscious lets just drop 45 Cal Liberators like we did in WWII


Posted by: Richard Blumenthal at February 25, 2011 01:31 PM (tf9Ne)

25 #5:

I'm guessing heavenly, but I'm weird.

Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:31 PM (MQzSA)

26

Stop the senseless killing.

Posted by: SomewhereSouthWest at February 25, 2011 01:32 PM (CyPWX)

27 Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 05:27 PM (nj1bB)

I think it's largely a bad idea because THEY HATE US.  Giving them extra weapons isn't going to help that.

I do like the "Smash & Grab" theory of warfare.  Go in, kill their leaders, tell them "Don't make us come back," and leave.

If you have to come back, you take it up a step: kill the new leadership, and destroy major infrastructure.  Then say "Don't make us come back," and leave.

Continue escalating until their 8th Century minds figure out that getting on our bad side is not conducive to long life.

But.  We won't do that either.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 01:33 PM (8y9MW)

28 Stop the senseless killing.

Begin the sensible killing.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 01:33 PM (GTbGH)

29 Drop party hats, whisky, and Hustler magazines.

Kill anyone who looks confused about what to do with them.

Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:34 PM (MQzSA)

30 I suggested exactly this when the Iranians were revolting and JugEars was doing nothing but offering a wienie roast invite. Rocks against firearms is not a level playing field.
 
The Libyan rebels however seem to have confiscated a bunch of guns, tanks, artillery and so on. Thus just our verbal support could mean something.
 
Of course, he didn't do that for Iranian protesters either.

Posted by: GnuBreed at February 25, 2011 01:35 PM (bvXGR)

31 Vindicated!

Posted by: Equivocation Czar at February 25, 2011 01:35 PM (w41GQ)

32 When did the US decide, collectively but silently and all at once, that we could no longer arm indigenous fighters?

Many of the al_Queda types were originally part of the anti-Soviet resistance in Afghanistan.  I suppose that gives a lot of people pause.

We've got a lot of moral stock in the idea that we're different, so we don't do that.

Wow, it certainly is harder actually doing something as opposed to just sitting on the sidelines throwing spitballs. Who knew?
-BHO

Posted by: pep at February 25, 2011 01:36 PM (P18+/)

33 Please to enjoy the liberal quotes from this CNN article taunting Palin for her suggestion a few days ago:

http://bit.ly/emMO82


Samples:

Bubba

Thank GOD she doesn't have any power. She wanted to send troops into Egypt, too. She's just nuts. Why do people listen to this drivel?


swagner

Implement a no-fly zone over another sovereign country? Nice, that way our military can be much closer when Gaddafi falls and we need to invade to save that country (our oil) from the war loving Muslims that will try to rise to power. All makes perfect sense in a sound bite world.


Greg Smith

Didn't realize that Palin could see Libya from her backyard.


and so on.....

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 25, 2011 01:37 PM (DsqGb)

34

Don't we have ways of killing people without anyone knowing we did it?

 

I mean, lets say a military base in tripoli just blows up inexplicably.

do we put MADE IN THE USA on all of our bombs and weapons?

Posted by: Ben at February 25, 2011 01:38 PM (DKV43)

35 I fully expect the policy of arming "resistance fighters" to resume with the atrocities of Wisconsin. SEIU and their brother organizations will require weapons and ammo to fight the evil and insidious forces of the TEA party tyrants, who supress righteous opposition via the withholding of their money and votes. Che!

Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (OlN4e)

36 The Allies dropped two-shot stamped-steel pistols behind German lines to encourage civilians to kill enemy soldiers and take their guns. Not sure if it was successful, but in this case it would sure spook government soldiers who couldn't be assured they were pushing unarmed civilians around.

Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (A9YyI)

37

obama will wait until events sort themselves out, then claim the result was the desired one

the gutless fuck

if those Libyans were unionized, obama would be on the situation like stink on a monkey

Posted by: BDJ at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (cUNcx)

38 We sold boxcutters to Al Qaeda in the 80s!

Posted by: Fucktard McMoonbat at February 25, 2011 01:39 PM (QvjLC)

39 We don't have to arm them with the latest tech firearms.  Why not drop a load of shotguns or 357 mags so they can defend their homes and families?  Sure not great against the military thugs except when you outnumber them it can be pretty effective over time.  Kind of like airdropping the 2nd amendment.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at February 25, 2011 01:40 PM (xdHzq)

40

Sorry, single-shot pistols.

http://tinyurl.com/5k4lsz

Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at February 25, 2011 01:41 PM (A9YyI)

41 Obama Doctrine: The United States Stands in Solidarity with Every Oppressed People We See on CNN or MSNBC so long as CNN or MSNBC tells us the Oppressor is an Ally of a Prior Administration. In all other cases, The United States shall equivocate in the Strongest Possible Terms on Behalf of Universal Values Shared by my Political Base.

Posted by: USA at February 25, 2011 01:42 PM (YZISw)

42 I can assure you people that the Zero administration is not in the business of spreading evil firearms around the world. Especially since they have an unending supply of yellow bullshit smart diplomacy on tap.

Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:42 PM (OlN4e)

43 Sarah is spreading Palinaise© all over Obama's foreign policy.

Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:43 PM (MQzSA)

44 @41 Translation: We're officially joining the Axis of Weasel!

Posted by: Al at February 25, 2011 01:43 PM (MzQOZ)

45 A few more.  Damn, it's like eating peanuts.  So hard to stop:


AC

I very glad that our elected President does not respond the Palin's rants and raves. Palin, her's a lesson, "know when to keep your mouth shut and when to speak" I encourage you to run for President. I want the world to know what an IDIOT you are, I want to see you embrass yourself and your family on National TV ok.


Dave

Palin is so stupid, and has no knowledge of world affairs. She just continues to make herself look bad. Yeah, she sells books, make millions but is worthless trash as the Tea Party and Conservatives love. She took 6 years to get a degree and is a huge failure. Shut up Palin.


Robert - Atlanta

Why does CNN think they have to cover every moronic statement from the former half-term Governor, current-nothing and future-even-less Alaskan chillbilly! Let her brain dead followers go to Facebook if they need her daily rant!


Peggy - TX

Blah-Blah-Blah Â…. STUPID assessment of current administration Â…. Blah-Blah-Blah STUPID one line zinger targeted at current administration Â… Blah-Blah Blah Â….STUPID suggestion on how she would better handle a current problem with a STUPID solution that shows her ignorance and is in fact STUPID as it is extraordinarily reckless and very likely to entangle America in anotherÂ’s sovereign nations affairs with long term STUPID repercussions that would most likely cost American lives.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at February 25, 2011 01:43 PM (DsqGb)

46     Yes only air  and Only if they are using their air force to slaughter the people.
I would take out all air assets possible in a one time attack to put a stop to that. Nothing Flies.
  Then only if massive slaughter of innocents -  being killed by gov forces as needed. Hit them again to stop it but by air only.

That was my response to the vote (16 % said yes to air only) on the 21st -  and now.........
Same as it ever was  

 

Posted by: melvin at February 25, 2011 01:44 PM (3OCZw)

47

So should I denounce myself for not really giving a shit what happens in these 6th century hellholes? Let them all kill each other then take the oil fields. We should wait until the maximum number of dead islamists.

Too harsh?

Posted by: dagny at February 25, 2011 01:44 PM (5ZWTC)

48 Why not drop a load of shotguns or 357 mags so they can defend their homes and families?  What? So Chris Christie can just grab them before they hit the ground? Nice try, RINO.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 25, 2011 01:44 PM (QvjLC)

49 >>>The people outside the cities hate the mullahs. Hate them. I thought it was the opposite, the citiified people hated the mullahs while the poorer people in rural areas supported them.

Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (nj1bB)

50 O/T:  you know I watched the daly show segment I posted on the other thread and he talks about libya and dinner jacket and it's funny and then he talks to austin goolsbee and it is just so sad.  Makes you wonder what would have happened if Stewart was actually trying to embarrass goolsbee.  But, what really concerns me is that he shows up on the show and wants to talk about pell grants and education funding being taken away from the show's audience demographic by the evil republicans.  And then he begins spouting phrases, the kind of phrases you can later chant at a rally.  I'm so concerned that we have been reduced to a culture of sound bites, catch phrases and chants.

Posted by: curious at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (p302b)

51 Those kids in Iran sure could have used a few .22's with scopes or some 9MM.  Even those would have made quite the difference against the motorcycle banshee or whatever they were called.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (xdHzq)

52 Not too harsh. Pissing on the ashes and salting the ground would be harsh.

Posted by: sifty likes harsh at February 25, 2011 01:45 PM (MQzSA)

53 So should I denounce myself for not really giving a shit what happens in these 6th century hellholes? Let them all kill each other then take the oil fields. We should wait until the maximum number of dead islamists. Too harsh? Posted by: dagny at February 25, 2011 05:44 PM (5ZWTC) Ya know tomorrow is the first spring training game for the Yankees. Does that answer your querstion

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:46 PM (7wmOW)

54 Obama Considering Plan Palin?
Like I said, HONEY BEAVER!

(My hubby's nickname for Palin after watching Honey Badger video)

You know what's funny, I always capitalize Honey Badger, but more times than not, I don't capitalize obama's name)

Posted by: momma at February 25, 2011 01:46 PM (penCf)

55 I'm not sure who I trust less, K'Daffy or the 'democracy' protestors.

Either way, I'm thinking it's a shitburger.

Posted by: nickless at February 25, 2011 01:47 PM (MMC8r)

56 Honey Badger only gives one warning if you don't capitalize his name. Only one.

Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:47 PM (MQzSA)

57 HONEY BARRACUDA

Posted by: Sphynx at February 25, 2011 01:48 PM (fEmj2)

58 You know what's funny, I always capitalize Honey Badger, but more times than not, I don't capitalize obama's name) Posted by: momma at February 25, 2011 05:46 PM (penCf) I might capitalize his name ( out of habit ) but I NEVER put the word President with his name like I always put President Bush.

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:48 PM (7wmOW)

59 Too harsh?

nah.  we just like a fair fight like in the John Wayne movies.  More entertaining, plus we want to see Quadaffy take one between the eyes.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at February 25, 2011 01:48 PM (xdHzq)

60 >>>I think it's largely a bad idea because THEY HATE US. Giving them extra weapons isn't going to help that. Dude, they ain't taking over the world with AK-47s and grenades. Or even 25-year-old outdated Stinger missile tech which I'm sure the Chinese have been selling for years and years. Small arms like this are a threat to a regime but not really a threat to the outside world.

Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:49 PM (nj1bB)

61 Martha has a bushy beaver.  Just sayin'.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at February 25, 2011 01:49 PM (QMtmy)

62 and yeah I said AK-47s because they're cheap and hardy because I think most of these regimes favor this weapon, therefore ammunition is replenishable by just killing enemies.

Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 01:50 PM (nj1bB)

63 I thought it was the opposite, the citiified people hated the mullahs

And I understood the reverse.  Maybe I shouldn't have said the mullahs when I meant the central government.  They may like their own mullahs for all I know.  What I meant was that, as I understand it, all the people in the countryside see of the central government is officials sent to tell them what to do and to eat out their substance.

Remember the earthquakes?  The central government was useless then.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 01:50 PM (GTbGH)

64 Dude, they ain't taking over the world with AK-47s and grenades. Or even 25-year-old outdated Stinger missile tech which I'm sure the Chinese have been selling for years and years. Small arms like this are a threat to a regime but not really a threat to the outside world. Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 05:49 PM (nj1bB) Well they really don't have to take over the world, just all the oil fields in the Middle East after all?

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (7wmOW)

65 I think we should supply them with multi-usage weapons, with a large and inexplicable red button mounted prominantly on the side of the weapon.

Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (OlN4e)

66 I'm pretty sure all the guys and gals who would be air-dropping small arms to Libya are now building eco-housing in Haiti or something.

Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (MQzSA)

67 and yeah I said AK-47s because they're cheap and hardy

and we captured millions of them in Iraq.  Which I think we destroyed, duh.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 01:51 PM (GTbGH)

68

So should I denounce myself for not really giving a shit what happens in these 6th century hellholes? Let them all kill each other then take the oil fields. We should wait until the maximum number of dead islamists.

Too harsh? Posted by: dagny

Undoubtedly not nuanced enough for any leftie, but not necessarily a bad option.

That said, I think the bigger case to be made is whoever figures out how to climb on top of the shithole must have something going for them. Those are the guys we 'make a deal' with. Something along the lines of, "If you guys protect and honor the current oil contracts, we don't bomb the living shit out of you."

Posted by: goldbricker esq at February 25, 2011 01:52 PM (S59+B)

69

You guys like Palin? You're stupid.

 You can't come to our slumber party unless you say you hate her too.

Posted by: Mean Girls at February 25, 2011 01:52 PM (AnTyA)

70 If Gootaffy had just passed more gun laws none of this shit would be happening.

Posted by: sifty at February 25, 2011 01:52 PM (MQzSA)

71

 You can't come to our slumber party unless you say you hate her too.

Posted by: Mean Girls at February 25, 2011 05:52 PM (AnTyA)

Is there a sloppy blowjob in it for me?

Posted by: maddogg at February 25, 2011 01:53 PM (OlN4e)

72 I'm kind of the same mind as nevergiveup -- let them do what they're going to do.

In fact, let the whole region go to pot. (But arm Israel to the teeth so they can defend themselves)

Then, when the caliphate is established and advancing on Europe, when half of Britain has become Muslim and is bowing east five times a day, when it's clear to all the dipweeds in the U.S. and elsewhere that radical Islam IS A THREAT, we'll just go ahead and take care of business.

Posted by: Sphynx at February 25, 2011 01:53 PM (fEmj2)

73 What? So Chris Christie can just grab them before they hit the ground? Nice try, RINO. Posted by: Empire of Jeff

Fuck man, what are you doing? Trying for some kind of thread perfecta?

Leave some for the rest of us, dude!

Posted by: goldbricker esq at February 25, 2011 01:54 PM (S59+B)

74 Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 05:49 PM (nj1bB)

True.  However, once having toppled the regime and taken over the wealth provided by the local oil fields, they can afford things bigger than an AK-47.  Or grenades.

All I'm saying is that arming people who will (beyond any reasonable doubt) be our enemies should really be avoided, if it's practical.

I'll even go so far as to say that with AQ v USSR and Iraq v Iran, we really didn't have any other practical options.

I will also point out, though, that the protesters are winning without our help- which won't stop them from trying to buy ICMBs to attack us, but at least it means we won't have helped them do it.

But, again, my preferred option is Smash and Grab.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 01:55 PM (8y9MW)

75 >>>The people outside the cities hate the mullahs. Hate them.

I thought it was the opposite, the citiified people hated the mullahs while the poorer people in rural areas supported them.

There's the biggest problem.  If you drop guns and ammo into the middle of nowhere, you have no real control over who gets them, what they use them for, and how committed they are (Tora Bora, anyone?).  The reason we prefer to use our own troops is that they'll follow orders which gives us some influence over how things go and ultimately turn out.

That being said, if the muslim days of rage are hitting Iraq, too (what the hell do they have to protest at this point?), I think we have to conclude that civilizing the Middle East just isn't possible and we're going to have to engage in more Roman alternatives.

Posted by: Methos at February 25, 2011 01:55 PM (Ew1k4)

76 # 73 Is that what I said? I am not sure about letting it go to pot, although is sure looks like that is where it is headed.

Posted by: nevergiveup at February 25, 2011 01:56 PM (7wmOW)

77 Give me Walthers for my men and whiskey for my camels, and I'll rid this country of all the dirty mullah's.

Posted by: Jawan Wa'ayen at February 25, 2011 01:58 PM (rrkE9)

78 Khadahfie.

G'daghphigh.

Kidahfee.

Hey, this is fun.

Posted by: nickless at February 25, 2011 02:00 PM (MMC8r)

79

I like Palin.

It's fratricide in Libya between a bunch of groups and tribes that all hate us since The Barbary pirates got their asses handed to them at Derne, hate or floggin' guts.

Red on Red smells like victory to me. Let them kill each other.

Posted by: HEP-T at February 25, 2011 02:00 PM (LH8Ok)

80 This does not need small arms it's just about over and all that is needed if anything is a coordinated push by the locals. They have captured enough of the state's weapons and territory and have enough defectors(millitary) as leaders for their own red dawn offense.
 I don't want to see another massive population of AK47 toating Islamics, no.

All that is needed is for US to drop an M80 or a cherry bomb and a string of black cats. They will fold like a paper napkin and teh one will be a hero. Then when its over we airdrop some water food and porn.

Posted by: melvin at February 25, 2011 02:00 PM (3OCZw)

81 If you drop guns and ammo into the middle of nowhere, you have no real control over who gets them, what they use them for, and how committed they are

I think of that as a feature, not a bug.  Our prognostication ability has been poor anyway.  Iran is a cancer, let it go all warlord and thunderdome. 


In 2004 I laid out the Tobias Took plan for disrupting Iran on one of these threads.  It would not take much to get rid of the government there.  It's a small, backward country and I'm frankly astonished that we've been willing, not forced btw but willing, to eat their shit for 30 fucking years.



Don't get me started on Cuba, post USSR either.

Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 02:00 PM (GTbGH)

82 >>> If you drop guns and ammo into the middle of nowhere, you have no real control over who gets them, what they use them for, and how committed they are This is not a problem at all -- the regime's goons have all the weapons they could ever want. It doesn't matter if extra AK-47s wind up in their hands -- they're not going to double-fist them. What matters is that the opposition is unarmed. Just injecting a lot of arms into these countries, *even randomly*, is very bad for the regime. I'm not talking space-guns here. I'm talking about the AKs and rifles the regime goons have anyway. Just airdrop 'em in. Like I said, who cares if the regime winds up with more of the weapons it already has in huge quantities? Cause chaos, set match to gasoline.

Posted by: ace at February 25, 2011 02:02 PM (nj1bB)

83

All hail the UNSC's resolution on Libya!

Which should be forthcoming, well, any time now, I suppose.

Posted by: ErikW at February 25, 2011 02:03 PM (ASYVq)

84

 

@27 -

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at February 25, 2011 05:33 PM (8y9MW)

Damn good point! 

Posted by: SomewhereSouthWest at February 25, 2011 02:04 PM (CyPWX)

85 Cause chaos, set match to gasoline.

Upding!

One - Something's got to give
Two - Something's got to give
Three - Something's got to give
Now 

Let the bodies hit the floor


Posted by: toby928™ at February 25, 2011 02:05 PM (GTbGH)

86 I think "we" have prioritized creating replacement ruling classes to capitalize on popular movements, insurgencies, and military coups that unseat current rulers and leave only conflicting claims to power in their place.

It's a truly fucking terrible idea that's going to come back and bone us to death. (See arguments against "Islamic terrorism is a reaction to poverty" to find out why.)

Posted by: oblig. at February 25, 2011 02:05 PM (xvZW9)

87 I suppose it is because of 9/11. When we arm indigenies, we're on the hook for everything they do with the weapons, and they will almost certainly blow up civilians in what is either an actual terrorist attack or a vicious guerrilla attack which is hard to differentiate from a terror attack. We've got a lot of moral stock in the idea that we're different, so we don't do that.

How does that relate to 9/11? Ahmed Shah Masood's troops were as much a foe of the Taliban as they were of the Soviets.

Posted by: 18-1 at February 25, 2011 02:06 PM (bgcml)

88 O/T:  So maybe you want to mosy on over to politico and take this poll:  "Is it OK for conservatives to go after Michelle Obama?"

You can take a shower afterward.

Posted by: curious at February 25, 2011 02:09 PM (p302b)

89

Let's review

The USA bailed out Moslems in ..

Lebenon

Somalia

Kosovo

Kuwait

Saudi

Iraq

Afghanistan

And they still fracking HATE US!!!

Let'em burn their own house down

If Libya gets all crazy, bomb they, observe, and repeat as necessary

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at February 25, 2011 02:11 PM (vrDK+)

90 I'm so concerned that we have been reduced to a culture of sound bites, catch phrases and chants.

Posted by: curious at February 25, 2011 05:45 PM (p302b)

That didn't just start recently.  I remember watching Nightline in the 80s when they had a discussion of the shitty state of education in the country (they'd beg for it now I'm sure).  One of the guests was Leon Botstein from Bard College and he looked and sounded like the dumbest fucking pinheaded twat on the show.  Subsequently I heard him speak in person and was blown away at how intelligent and eloquent he was.  I was left to conclude that the medium of television almost makes it impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation because it forces people to do what you said above.  It really doesn't lend itself to involved complex discussions.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 25, 2011 02:12 PM (F9JPD)

91

can't type....

Bomb them, observe the response and bomb again, repeat as necessary

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at February 25, 2011 02:15 PM (vrDK+)

92 Just injecting a lot of arms into these countries, *even randomly*, is very bad for the regime.

Ugh.  We're talking about two different countries and not being specific about which we mean.  I don't think we should dump weapons into Libya as the 'protesters' don't need them and their long term motivations are dubious (the fact that the Iranian leadership is egging them on suggests nothing good). I don't see the point of a no fly zone (sorry, Sarah) as this thing is going to be over by the time we could impose one.

In Iran, I guess one could argue chaos is bad for the regime and good for us as we can't get much worse than an apocalyptically motivated regime.  I'm just not sure if it's feasible.  I doubt at this point they'd let us overfly their territory unchallenged and then we're at war with them anyway.  And since they've been funneling weapons into Iraq for the last decade, they've probably spent some time planning for how they'd counter an effort on our part to return the favor.

Posted by: Methos at February 25, 2011 02:16 PM (Ew1k4)

93 "I suppose now they will add nuance to their claim -- three days ago it was stupid, but the situation has changed so dramatically that only now is the suggestion humane and brilliant." The reason why: The Left has been desperately looking for how to get back on the right side of history after Iraq. A military intervention--which has been making the rounds of the post-grad coffeehouse progressive set this week-- in large, open, sparse, relatively cosmopolitan, Libya--is an easier job and anti-statist seal of approval than trying to follow through on anything they've said about Afghanistan.

Posted by: BuddyPC at February 25, 2011 02:26 PM (nSkOL)

94 In Iran, I guess one could argue chaos is bad for the regime and good for us as we can't get much worse than an apocalyptically motivated regime.  I'm just not sure if it's feasible.  I doubt at this point they'd let us overfly their territory unchallenged and then we're at war with them anyway.  And since they've been funneling weapons into Iraq for the last decade, they've probably spent some time planning for how they'd counter an effort on our part to return the favor.

Posted by: Methos

The idea would be that if they had to concentrate more time and energy on fighting an insurrection at home, they would have less time and energy to foment trouble beyond their borders. Someday the rule of the Mullahs will end in Iran, but it probably won't be tomorrow, or even next year.  But it's not hopeless, like Tibet. The Iranian Qods force was waging a covert war on the US Army and Marines in Iraq, and I say it is well past time to start returning the favor.

But the Obama junta does not think like that and of course they will do nothing to make that happen.

Likewise, any kind of covert action to support any kind of identifiable faction that we would favor in Libya is not going to happen.  That's  not how our present government rolls.  They actually cannot publicly articulate a coherent foreign policy or policy objectives.

Like I read elsewhere a few days ago:

We know what the Bush Doctrine was.

What is the Obama Doctrine?  Do they have any kind of publicly articulated doctrine other than apologizing for alleged Western imperialism (whatever that is in this day of post monarchy politics)?

They are a collection of weak-minded children in the bodies of adults masquerading as a government while mouthing the standard leftist political tropes of the last +30 years. That's why the
Make Believe Media loves them, because the both believe in the same fairy tales.

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes.... at February 25, 2011 02:44 PM (sJTmU)

95 If left to their own devices Libya will become several countries, think Yugoslavia after Tito. They have only been a "Nation" since the fifties before that they were a colony of Italy with arbitrary boundaries before that it was a province in many different empires. Kadowski is done for, he dies there. Sit back and wait for things to shake out maybe someone emerges we can do business with maybe not.

Posted by: Adobe Walls at February 25, 2011 02:55 PM (lUiZg)

96 5 Hey Barry, how's my ass taste?   Can somebody put me some f'n knowledge about changing my name, stat?   To "Barry".

Posted by: sherlock at February 25, 2011 02:59 PM (thr9V)

97 The reason why: The Left has been desperately looking for how to get back on the right side of history after Iraq. 

Posted by: BuddyPC at February 25, 2011 06:26 PM (nSkOL)

I don't know.  They totally ignored Sudan pretty effectively.  I was impressed.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at February 25, 2011 06:27 PM (G/MYk)

Great point; they even had Mia Farrow hectoring them to get off their dead asses and assist in a humanitarian crisis and it didn't do a damn thing to change their apathy.  Fucksticks will be fucksticks.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 25, 2011 03:00 PM (F9JPD)

98 Why is that off the table now?
Because guns and ammo kill babies, polar bears and small pebbles and other living creatures.

Posted by: leftie mcmoonbat flower wind rush at February 25, 2011 03:04 PM (7H/n0)

99 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington, DC. 0300Hrs. *Ring* "Hey, what's shakin' homes. Lightbringer, here. What?....Libya?.....Who? It's for you." "Sarah Palin here, may I help you?"

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC at February 25, 2011 03:19 PM (HYre9)

100

#104

Yup.

... and watch the International Press cover The Arctic Fox when she keynotes the big convention in India's Capital next month ..... she definitely impressed PM Singh back in 08 ..... the woman is a Force of Nature folks ...

Time people started seriously thinking about backing the only leader with the STEEL SPINE necessary to turn this country around and head it AWAY from the cliff ....

 

Posted by: exodus2011 at February 25, 2011 03:45 PM (xmHmT)

101 This is how we can embarrass the administration...by coming up with all the foreign policy ideas while they sit on their hands and do nothing.  Then they are forced to do something, and it looks strangely like something a Republican already thought of.

Posted by: frode at February 25, 2011 04:23 PM (1m2f3)

102 I was told that the people who blame obama for all their problems have mental problems and need to look carefully at their own lives.

Posted by: Meg Mass at February 25, 2011 04:55 PM (f4Ndo)

103

Only a matter of time before I get some name recognition.

 

Seriously

Posted by: Chad at February 25, 2011 07:02 PM (LSNU0)

104

Sarah is spreading Palinaise© all over Obama's foreign policy.

I am SOOOO going to steal that!

Posted by: ThePalinExpress at February 26, 2011 05:21 AM (uW+NQ)

105

... and watch the International Press cover The Arctic Fox when she keynotes the big convention in India's Capital next month ..... she definitely impressed PM Singh back in 08 ..... the woman is a Force of Nature folks ...

Time people started seriously thinking about backing the only leader with the STEEL SPINE necessary to turn this country around and head it AWAY from the cliff ....

 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall as soon as she meets Al Gore. Alaskans demand answers.

Posted by: ThePalinExpress at February 26, 2011 05:23 AM (uW+NQ)

106 Just as a matter of interest, I 'googled' neocons/exporting democracy/Iraq-Afghanistan as models.

Saw a lot of sneering by Ivy League and MSM types at the very concept democracy could be 'exported' and Bush was universally portrayed as a pathetic dreamer, idealogue, etc. Most interesting of all was this squib about the brilliant strategy of Teh One:

"It's understandable that the neocons are confused. Like the Neanderthals wandering a human world in Jean Auel's novels, they're dangerously out of date. What Goldberg doesn't understand is that a new, more modern goal underlies Obama's more sophisticated effort to achieve democracy around the world -- constitutionalism."

Talk about a WTF moment!

Posted by: alwyr at February 26, 2011 05:29 AM (w2++y)

107 Obama Planned Palinhood

Posted by: kameralý sohbet at February 26, 2011 09:14 AM (I/J2Y)

Posted by: sartana at March 01, 2011 02:12 PM (+fNcw)

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