1 Not only fired, but jailed. Just as in a corporate situation.

Don't be fooled - Kasich is from Cleveland, and likes big government, as long as he is in charge of it.

2 "Retraining"?

My peeps don't get retrained.

3 Doh! Not Cleveland. I was thinking of Lunatic Kucinich.

4 'Hope you're feeling better, ace. 

5 Ace that is an astute observation; that the real job instructions are what dominate an employee's actions. I shall remember that when I am in a position to have employees in the future - thank you.

6

Lets try firings.

I concur. And it's not like we have a tight job market. The hiring pool is quite deep.

7 Heh. Yeah, slightly.

He was born in Pittsburgh, though, which gives me enough reason to suspect him (I'm an unfortunate fan of the Browns).

8

A couple of points. These workers were county level workers, not state level workers.

It would be interesting to know if O'Keefe and Co tried their "Bob Marley Pharmaceuticals" routine with state workers or any other county level workers and were (rightly) denied or if anybody else rejected them outright. 

9 Guys, I really don't understand this - this worker should be liable for criminal prosecution. I guess prosecutions for assisting in defrauding the taxpayers are so rare, that the real rule is 'don't worry about it'.

Not getting fired would be lower on my list of concerns than 'not going to jail'.

10 Bummer, I first read the headline as "restraining".  That would have been better.

11
I never liked the name Gibbons.

It reminds me of fucking monkeys.

12

Thanks... shouldn't there be unannounced tests, too? Like O'Keefe's sting, but with people hired by the government?

Exactly.  The ledger needs to balance on both sides.  Look at what happened in Atlanta with the massive cheating on the tests.  When those who are supposed to be watching out for improper conduct have an incentive to let that conduct pass, well, the inevitable will happen.

I agree that jail time should be in play for fraud by the person approving the benefits. 

13 Training will not cure this.

LOL Ace, I went through an 8 year stent in training (adult training of co-workers).  One of the things that I got taught in my training for instructor certification would be that you would ALWAYS be hit for training to correct some problem when it was obvious that "lack of training" was not the problem to begin with. The reason for that is that it is a cheap, easy, and fast fix that you can point to for taking action.

This is why most major corporations and the military have something called "root cause analysis". That is a procedure that gives you the tools to determine the root cause, and contributing causes of a problem that has occurred. That then allows you to determine what the fix needs to be. Sometimes that is training, but most of the time it is not.

14 It would be interesting to know if O'Keefe and Co tried their "Bob Marley Pharmaceuticals" routine with state workers or any other county level workers and were (rightly) denied or if anybody else rejected them outright.

I think I remember reading it that they had videos of several offices.. 

So just like the ACORN videos, he's stringing them out.. 

15
so...

Eric Holder has time to jump into the News of the World scandal but no time to prosecute Nadil Hassan or try KSM?

16

 make sure no one who comes into her office seeking "free government money" has any reason to file a complaint against her.

Why do you assume that's her goal? I haven't followed this, so I don't know if she actually said something like that.

Maybe she thinks she's Robin Hood and trying to give as much money to "poor" people as possible.

17 If you get benefits you aren't entitled, that's called fraud. Such an example is not "complainable". It's illegal.

18

Woman is on PAID leave of absence.

In my job if someone even asks aout prices we have to give them an FTC approved and filed price list.

They send undercover shoppers to check us out and IF we give them one too late, but before they leave.....20,000 dollar fine.

yes we have been fined!

Of course this is the private sector govt is watching.

only fair private sector watches govt. good job OKeefe hope you make trillions

19

I never liked the name Gibbons.

It reminds me of fucking monkeys.

How does one gain experience fucking monkeys?

20 Why isn't Kasich out there beating the drum on this?

The unions have declared war against him in this State - he should hit them right back. As I said in the other thread, I think they're winning the PR battle against SB 5. This should be our ads in response. Nothing like showing some fatass, public employee hack that has gone beyond negligence but into criminal activity on the job to drive your point home.

21 What really needs to happen is to have procedures and policies in place that make it easy to determine what the worker is supposed to do. Also there must be firm policies in place that tell punishment for willful violation of those procedures.  And finally, those rules must be rigidly enforced with no regard to age, sex, race, or religion (or whether the violator has his nose up the boss's ass).

The sad thing is that in the government none of this ever happens.

22
Interesting caller a little while ago on Laura I.

It goes along with 'Obama Is Too Big To Fail.'

This debt "deal" is a trillion-dollar bailout for Obama.

Precisely.

23 It's not that I'm lazy.  It's that I just don't care.

24

How does one gain experience fucking monkeys?

 

Don't knock it til you tried it.  Damned dirty apes!

25
If you get benefits you aren't entitled, that's called fraud.

Hahahaha, oh child!

26

Posted by: sooth3P0 at July 20, 2011 11:11 AM (G/zuv)

And don't even mention Fast and Furious to him.

27 Another point, Ace:  They don't get praised for conserving money.  At the departmental level, their incentive is to spend all the money so they get their budget increased.

28 I would say fire but I am sure union wouldn't allow it.

29 Her real motivation is just to do as little work as possible and receive as big a paycheck as possible for that low level of work. In fact, that's most people's motivation at work.

I'm glad you added that last part.  I was starting to feel uncomfortable in my high pay, low effort position.

30

Posted by: Auntie Zetuni at July 20, 2011 11:16 AM (G/zuv)

 

SHES' entitled, she said so and her nephew agrees so STFU Racist!

31 It is endemic to the system. No one believes there is any limit to the money tap. This reminds me in a way of the SSD judge that has *never* denied a proposed disability request. He's Mr. Automatic if you can draw him as the judge.
 
You see, the well is bottomless.

32 Yeah . . . I'm gonna need you to commit frauds on Saturday . . .

33 >>>Another point, Ace: They don't get praised for conserving money. At the departmental level, their incentive is to spend all the money so they get their budget increased. Right, but I can pretty much guess how this all happened. Leftists like ACORN worked to change the incentive scheme, and got government to STOP giving out bonuses for this sort of thing, until... well, until it was all free money, as they wanted it to be.

34 As this situation will not arise naturally, it must be created via a state program of testing its bureaucrats. Bureaucratic watchdogs charged with watchdogging their fellow bureaucrats? I have a niggling suspicion such a system won't yield the results we'd like to see.

35 Public canings are in order.

36 I'm glad you added that last part.  I was starting to feel uncomfortable in my high pay, low effort position.

You get use to it.  I have. 

Speaking of which, I need another person for my foursome out on the greens, Joe can't make it.  Any takers?  (see how easy that was?)

37 Do we know the job description for this person? I don't think that establishing eligibility is what she is there for - if she is there to provide assistance to people who are applying, then that's what she is supposed to be doing.

38 I bet there are 100's of people that would love to have this person's job. What the hell is this paid leave shizznit? She should be warming up a freaking cell, not sitting home on paid vacay. Kasich needs to make an example of her, pronto. Go to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect your paid leave.

39
This kind of reminds me of the scene in The Big Chill where the mousy chick gets a job as a social worker, and with a disheveled single mother client earnestly runs through the first question on the form, only to have the client interrupt with "Where's my fucking check."

Oh yeah, there's college......and the real world. And never the twain shall meet.

40 It's the old go-along to get-along philosophy, and she's simply a dumb ass liberal who fits perfectly into the redistribution scheme espoused by democrats.

If I were to do an investigation of this I would start with the boss and what are the procedures? How are the people trained?

I would then look at the procedures for clarity, consistency, and compliance with the law.

I would then question every worker in the department about the procedures and training they received.

I would then look to see if there is evidence of corrupt behavior from others.

I would then follow up with the boss on the results from that.

In the end it is fairly simple to figure out what the problem is.

If everyone but the one individual knows the procedures and follows it you have a personnel problem.

41 Her real motivation is just to do as little work as possible and receive as big a paycheck as possible for that low level of work. In fact, that's most people's motivation at work. I'm glad you added that last part. I was starting to feel uncomfortable in my high pay, low effort position. I have at times described my job as "Wally's Apprentice" AoSHQ gets me through my 'work' day.

42
This reminds me of that scene in Requiem of a Dream.

(but then again everything does)

43
I bet there are 100's of people that would love to have this person's job.

Thousands, brah. Thousands.

44 Right, but I can pretty much guess how this all happened. Leftists like ACORN worked to change the incentive scheme, and got government to STOP giving out bonuses for this sort of thing, until... well, until it was all free money, as they wanted it to be.

I have a simpler "how this all happened:" it was that way from the start.  The incentive for welfare of any kind has always been (on the government side) to give it out ("See how much we care?!") and (on the recipient side) to milk as much from the government udder as possible.  No ACORN required.  ACORN just turned it from an art (where those who knew how could do it, but not everyone knew how) to a science (where anyone could learn how).

The correct answer (that will never happen because it's political suicide, and screaming into a hurricane) would be to completely shut down all Medicaid applications until every application from, say, the last 5 years could be reviewed, verified, and re-approved.  Any one found to be involved with a fraudulent application at any time in those 5 years would be fired and/or prosecuted.

45 This kind of reminds me of the scene in The Big Chill St. Elmo's Fire

46 "Another point, Ace: They don't get praised for conserving money. At the departmental level, their incentive is to spend all the money so they get their budget increased." I had a friend who had worked for gubmint agencies.At one point we were at happy hour and she actually uttered the classic: "We got out catalogues and ordered stuff for the office, because if we don't spend all of the money in our budget, we might not get as much next year." I've mentioned this one before. She also once said, "There's grant money out there. You just need to figure out how to get it." People who work for gubmint tend to view the taxpayers as an endless supply of free money.

47
dammit you just put that damned song in my head

48 17
so...

Eric Holder has time to jump into the News of the World scandal but no time to prosecute Nadil Hassan or try KSM?

Heard a guy on Fox this morning say Hassan will go to trial in March.

And yeah, Chinless is all over anything to distract the masses from Fast & Furious.

49
This kind of reminds me of the scene in The Big Chill St. Elmo's Fire





Ahhhhh, shit. You're right. I knew it was one of those lefty douchebag films. .

50
WWMRD?

What would Molly Ringwald do?

51 If I were to do an investigation of this I would start with the boss and what are the procedures? How are the people trained?

I would then look at the procedures for clarity, consistency, and compliance with the law.

I would then question every worker in the department about the procedures and training they received.

I would then look to see if there is evidence of corrupt behavior from others.

I would then follow up with the boss on the results from that.

In the end it is fairly simple to figure out what the problem is.

If everyone but the one individual knows the procedures and follows it you have a personnel problem get rid of the Ohio Dep't of Jobs & Family Services

52 There is a whole genre in sociological research regarding the effect of the "street level bureaucrat" on the execution of public policy. Check it out. You may be surprised.

53 Guys, I really don't understand this - this worker should be liable for criminal prosecution. I guess prosecutions for assisting in defrauding the taxpayers are so rare, that the real rule is 'don't worry about it'.

Not getting fired would be lower on my list of concerns than 'not going to jail'.

Posted by: blindside

 

Think about how many Chicago policemen have been caught engaging in felonies, both on and of of the job, and were allowed to retire with full beneifts. Or the cop that killed a girl while joyriding in the patrol car and not only avoided jail time but then applied for and got disability? Or the two cops that handed over to jefferey dahmer one of his victims that had mangaged to escape? Both were forcibly re-hired.

Here in Delaware we had a state employee get busted on a child molestation charge, go to jail and his boss kept the job open for him. Do you really think that these people consider these posts to be anything otherr than a mill, for their use?

54
March, eh?

Just in time to make Obama look tough on radical Islamists?

55 Watching the videos of O'Keefe's sting, I wonder how many of those scrunts are mothers?  They sure didn't seem too fazed over twelve year-olds working as prostitutes and having multiple abortions.

56 Offer bounties to the citizens for reporting the government official that let something slide.

Yes, this probably means slimy people get to keep the money they scammed from the government - but it should also lead extremely quickly to purging the most egregious government employees and keeping the rest a lot more honest.

57

What would Molly Ringwald do?

"The Facts of Life" Molly Ringwald or "The Secret Life of the American Teenager" Molly Ringwald?

58 Someone posted something about the CEO of IBM offering software for free that would save a trillion dollars in fraud from Medicare and Medicaid. I am skeptical. But really, how would software combat this? Here we have humans who know what acceptable applications should look like telling people how to make their applications look acceptable. Software won't fix that. Firing this woman might have some amount of educational benefit, but likely not - she would remain leave on pay for years while it was adjudicated and arbitrated and whatever the hell else. The incentives are all wrong. Ace's rant above is righteous but tell it to the public employee union - they aren't going to allow an alignment of incentive that works that way.

59 This kind of reminds me of the scene in The Big Chill St. Elmo's Fire  The Warriors with Brain Dennehy

60
I forgot how versatile Molly Ringwald is.

61 Retraining sounds an awful lot like taxpayers having to pay for rehab when employees get busted for doing drugs.

62
Retraining? Snort. Yeah. "Folks, remember, it's wrong to break the law! Now memorize that, because it'll be on the quiz."

Rehiring is more like it. As in, fire some people, then hire new ones to take their place.

63
Remember the time Molly played a shy and complex cute redhead?

64 I was a bit cranky and overbearing yesterday. A guy I know who's in his fifties has worn a hearing aid for a while. He recently suffered more hearing loss. He told me he is checking into finding out if he can get disability. I was sitting next to him carrying on a conversation without any problem. I was NOT nice. I said that it is going to reach the point where half the population is on disability. I said that most of the deadbeats on Judge Judy are on disability. Yeah, I used the word deadbeat. Then I went into a rant about how social security started out as a pension, then they added on other crap entitlements, and that his adult son would probably spend his entire life paying into social security and end up getting nothing. Be interesting to see if this guy ever speaks to me again.

65

Ace that is an astute observation; that the real job instructions are what dominate an employee's actions. I shall remember that when I am in a position to have employees in the future - thank you.

As a Moron who found his way into civil service work, this Law of Perverse Incentives deriving from Unintended Consequences is downright accurate.

For this bureaucrat to squawk and blow the whistle involves *much* more paperwork and investigation hassle to her, and *not a bit* of praise to her for doing the right thing. So she passes the buck.

66 Retraining is stupid.  She's been trained.  She knows the "official" rules and doesn't care about them.  That's either systemic or isolated.  The correct thing to do is fire her and then investigate whether the issue is systemic, or not.

If it's systemic, then it's time to find some way to fix the system.  Ace's idea is not a bad one, but my preference would be something along the lines of retaining a private firm to do the "secret shopper" thing and report results to the government on a regular basis.

67 "Speaking of which, I need another person for my foursome out on the greens, Joe can't make it. Any takers? (see how easy that was?)

Posted by: Barry O... at July 20, 2011 11:23 AM (2lf+r)"

 

I'm in, just don't call my bluff.

68 Be interesting to see if this guy ever speaks to me again.

Posted by: nerdygirl at July 20, 2011 11:38 AM (eMPxE)

...but do you even care?...heh!

69 I was a bit cranky and overbearing yesterday

No good on your, nerdygirl. Some of these people apparently have to be shamed into understanding their bad behavior.

70

Remember the time Molly played a shy and complex cute redhead?

That was 16 Candles, I think. Didn't she wear something pink in that movie? She used to look pretty in pink.

71
(this is relevant, beer with me)

Remember that story I mentioned a couple of weeks ago about the body of 30yo woman going unnoticed in a public swimming pool for 2.5 days?

The first thing "the officials" did was to shut down ALL state pools. Why? So they could "review safety and operational procedures."

72 Be interesting to see if this guy ever speaks to me again.

Ehhh?

73 I think the idea of a bounty for ratting out fraudsters is a good idea. You've sized up the situation perfectly, Ace. Bravo.     

74

All these fraudsters should do their "retraining", using a 10 to 20 year course (what is the standard sentencing for fraud?) in a Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass prison.

75 O' Keefe has a new video out in New York. Same thing happened.  It's at daily caller. I won't link to them because of their unsourced hit piece on bachman but it's there.

76 Remember that story I mentioned a couple of weeks ago about the body of 30yo woman going unnoticed in a public swimming pool for 2.5 days?

The first thing "the officials" did was to shut down ALL state pools. Why? So they could "review safety and operational procedures."

Posted by: soothsayer

 

I know the answer to this one. That pool had apparantly passed an inspection while the body was in it.

77

When there is no counterbalance, when the taxpayer is never in the room, when the only threat to your easy-peasy paper-pushing job comes from a denial of benefits.... well, you won't have many, if any, denials of benefits. You'll have this-- rampant, routintized, SOP fraud, with the government a party to its own defrauding.

This.  We need a taxpayer's lobby...

...which seems so perverse in a system that is nominally for our benefit.

78
Rule #1: Avoid death, if possible, for you and the swimmers.

Rule #2: Occasionally check pool for dead people. Do this at least once a day.

79

Retraining is stupid.  She's been trained.  She knows the "official" rules and doesn't care about them. 

#70: I will bet that the woman indeed has been trained--to not rock the boat, not question what is happening, so as not to disrupt the department's budget.

Civil service people, in general, are not bad people. However, they are caught up in a system that perversely rewards buck passers and punishes whistleblowers. (See office supplies ordering example above).

It is in fact systemic.

80 One of the problems is that you can't ever write down all  the rules, thus retraining cannot substitute for a moral core foundation in the employee. 
It is also true that the unwritten rules as evidenced by the behavior of the "tribe" overrule whatever rules are actually written down (everyone else is taking bribes, thus it is acceptable behavior in my police department tribe).

81
That pool had apparently passed an inspection while the body was in it.

On both Monday and Tuesday.

The woman died some time during Sunday. Body was "discovered" lat Tuesday night when the pool was closed.

82 Seriously, years ago in my youth (my liberal youth), I was fresh out of high school and was laid off from my job.  I'd heard about food stamps and figured I'd go check out this whole 'free food' thing.

Go to the office in downtown CLE and the woman proceed to fill me in...as I recall, my benefits were pretty meager...$50/mo. sticks in my head.  So I asked her how do I get more?...her reply?  Get yourself some kids.  This was the beginning of my journey away from liberalism and toward conservatism...1977.  True story.

83 Added another update.

84 I think the idea of a bounty for ratting out fraudsters is a good idea. You've sized up the situation perfectly, Ace. Bravo. Exists at the Federal level. You can get a percentage for exposing FWA. I think government policing itself would turn itself into a FWA problem by itself. The cues for a "test case" will be known and everyone will get awarded for identifying the test cases hurray! But that will just mean people will get good at picking out the fake fraudsters. The carrot/stick needs to be there to root out real fraud not fake fraud.

85 Retraining is stupid.  She's been trained.  She knows the "official" rules and doesn't care about them.  That's either systemic or isolated.  The correct thing to do is fire her and then investigate whether the issue is systemic, or not.

If it's systemic, then it's time to find some way to fix the system.  Ace's idea is not a bad one, but my preference would be something along the lines of retaining a private firm to do the "secret shopper" thing and report results to the government on a regular basis.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther)

 

But then you might still wind up nailing only the poor bastards in the gunsights, like the immediate superiors or peers of Major Hasan. No one is going after the idea that Muslims are a protected minority, or that doing your job will get you fired, or in the military, sidelined and frozen. It's not unlike catching speeding drivers. I continue to be amazed how many people acelerate when they see someone stopped by cops. Not just a cop sitting there with the radar gun out, but actually in the act of pulling someone over.

86
Remember the time Molly played a shy and complex cute redhead?

Cute?  No, don't remember that one.  But she was great in that role where she whined a lot.

87 The IRS should hire 16,000 new agents to police this problem.

88

As Admiral Nelson advised: Sometimes you have to hang an admiral or two... to encourage the others.

Who here knows why The Don had the horse's head put in bed with Jack Woltz?

He did it to send a message: The Don was willing to destroy such a beautiful, valuable, and innocent animal to show Jack Woltz that he should never refuse the wishes of Vito Corleone.

89 Stalin took that admiral thing to new heights.

90 Jigsaw is the best man to sort this out.

91 Posted by: Vic at July 20, 2011 11:28 AM

Pretty good, Vic.

A better solution, IMO: start by investigating the boss and, if it flows from him in any way, fire his corrupt ass. Then prosecute.

If the eunuchs in DC did this -- starting with Osama Obama, Eric Shabazz Holder and the rest of the fuckweasels holding gubmint posts -- corruption wouldn't vanish, but incidences would drop like the proverbial stone.

"Poppin' Fresh" is displaying outrageous outrage over at Tepid Air over some Sate Department contractor who steered a few cents'-worth of contracts to family. In the meantime, Osama Obama funnels millions/billions to ACORN, union thugs, and worldwide terrorists.

Start at the top. Let the drones turn states' evidence. Fuck this penny-ante shit. It will slow down considerably when we have honesty at the top.

92 I *HATE* "good government" stuff. Al Gore was big on "reinventing government." Remember that? How do you ensure that a county Medicaid worker is more effective? For whom? Is that person's job to husband the government's resources (a bureaucratic death panel?) or to provide assistance to the requester?

93 We need a taxpayer's lobby...

How hard is it to set up a 501(c)?  'Cause I'd contribute to that.

Make the Mission Statement something along the lines of: "We're dedicated to true transparency in Government and effective audits to ensure the good behavior of our civil servants, even and especially when such behavior is not convenient."

Imagine the lobbying power of (quick math... 300mil * .5 =) 150 Million people all contributing, say, 50 bucks a year.  7.5 Billion dollars should buy us a congress critter or two.

94 O/T and Good News:

The woman who twisted the TSA agent's tittie won't be charged with a felony (per Drudge).

95 Posted by: Blue Hen at July 20, 2011 11:47 AM (6rX0K)

Well, yes.  But you're never going to fix human nature, so take that off the table.  The only way to get corruption completely out of the system is to do away with the system (which I support, but isn't going to happen).

96 I have a question... Why does anyone need help filling out a form?  Can't we just fire most of these helpers?

97 Ace: qui tam.

98 Procedural Guidance for Morons - Do Not Google Image search Molly Ringwald with safe search turned off. (This should work as well as the Ohio training program.)

99 I *HATE* "good government" stuff. Al Gore was big on "reinventing government." Remember that?

How do you ensure that a county Medicaid worker is more effective? For whom? Is that person's job to husband the government's resources (a bureaucratic death panel?) or to provide assistance to the requester?

Posted by: blaster

 

Most people dread a trip to the freaking DMV. It's simple clerk/bank teller type tasks, except for the actual driving test. And the loathing of that trip is cliched now.

100 If you put forward a small bonus for each applicant the workers denied, you would come out billions ahead.

101 Ace, did you see where a contracted employee who was actually working as contract officer the State Dept who steered $52 million in projects to her husband and daughter??

They had actually tried to cover the fact that they were married, and lied when questioned about it,  to keep their scam going, but the dumbass husband had posted things over at  his MySpace account about his wife and their wedding.

102

But then you might still wind up nailing only the poor bastards in the gunsights, like the immediate superiors or peers of Major Hasan. No one is going after the idea that Muslims are a protected minority, or that doing your job will get you fired, or in the military, sidelined and frozen.

Bingo. THIS.

I am reminded of the recent California Redistricting Commission, passed by voter initiative, to create a bipartisan panel in order to draw more sensible State Senate and State Assembly districts, to replace the old hybrid combination of Democrat partisan gerrymandering and Democrat/Republican "sweetheart" (incumbent favoring) gerrymandering. Arguably the recent Democrats are so partisan that the remaining Republicans are in solid republican districts by default, but I digress.

Anyway, believe it or not, the Commission did a reasonable job. So it was promptly subject to legal action by the usual Minority Marxist Malcontents who invoked the ethnic "community of interest" district drawing clauses of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Which brings us back to ethnic gerrymandering, which brings us back to gerrymandering period.

103 I have a question... Why does anyone need help filling out a form?  Can't we just fire most of these helpers?

Posted by: cherry π at July 20, 2011 11:54 AM (OhYCU)

Exactly.  If you're too stupid to fill out a form, you're too stupid to qualify for benefits that I'm paying for.  Go ahead and die.

104
We need a taxpayer's lobby...

How about a taxpayer's union? Could we swing that? Hell, we're practically in the minority.

105 Speaking of public employees, not that this is any great job (although it's a job), I'm sitting here looking out  my window at the guys pilfering through the recycling bins trying to figure out what they can put in their truck to take home and what they will dump.

I guess this is what happens when they do recycling pick-up at noon - they think everyone's at work and not watching these shenanigans.

106 Wow...y'all were'nt kidding yesterday. I have AMessNBC on in the background.

Cuntessa Brewer really does have a huge ass.

...are those moons revolving around it?

107 Is it possible that this is all Kasich is allowed to do by Ohio law?  I don't know how much autonomy Ohio counties have, but it's probably not insignificant and I wouldn't think the governor could just go in and start firing people.

108

I wholeheartedly agree with Ace's suggestion testing, but would take it a step further.  How about frequent and real auditing of recipients (hopefully by the same guys our workers comp carrier use).  That way you catch fraud and deadbeats coming and going.

 

Did you know that Social Security paid out $41 billion in May? About half went to those over 65. Which means about $20 billion went to who?  Adult babies?  The vaguely "disabled"?  "Orphans?"  I got your "orpan" story right here:  My bro in law's kids go to school with a lady who's ex-husband got killed on a construction job site. Tragic, yes, but she likes to talk about how she gets more money from the SS administration for those kids than she got out of him in child support when he was alive.  There is something wrong with this system, when kids win the lottery because their dad died.  Oh BTW the mom makes good money but makes it all under the table as a hairdresser. 

 

I say SS needs to fire half the office staff (don't make it easy for 2 Russian drug dealers to stop in and sign up.  Make them make and appointment and come back in 2 weeks).  Then hire some "cops" to audit recipients. Start small. Go eyeball every single person drawing a SS check who's over 100.  How many of them are actually dead, but their kids haven't reported them dead?  Then audit every "disabled" person, starting with those between 40 and 50.  My guess is they all have "back pain".  It's called "getting old," guys, and I'm there too. 

 

Knowing that the entitlement system was actually policed might actually stop some of the petty criminals, who when aggregated cost all of us zillions and zillions of our hard earned dollars. 

109 yup, there needs to be a UCMJ for government employees so that they don't abuse their position. Government agencies need to set a firing guideline too, like they're required to fire 10% of employees every year, no more of this 99.5% retention rate.

110 The admiral killing thing is from Voltaire, not Adm. Nelson.

111 O/T and Good News:

The woman who twisted the TSA agent's tittie won't be charged with a felony (per Drudge).

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 20, 2011 11:54 AM (UOM4

I disagree, we can't let this titty twisting go on unabated!

112 Ace is spot on with the "paper rule" vs. The "real rule" practice. There will be the "paper retraining" where it will be sternly reinforced that Medicaid applicants must have the earnings threshold stringently applied to their case. And then there will be the "real retraining:" "Business as usual, except now we want you to deny any application submitted by single white men. Better safe than sorry."

113 Out on a limb, but I don't think she should be fired.

If the entire department operates like this, she's the least culpable. If you need to fire someone, fire her manager and  the department head. The whole thing needs re-organization.

As Curmudgeon wrote, there's a good chance that it's set up to cause more work for the employee if she cancels the claim. The system has to be balanced in that killing a claim or filling it correctly should have the same amount of work involved. Likewise the penalties or reprimand for doing either incorrectly need to be exactly the same.

Then you start up the 'secret shopper' program to keep them honest.

114
we don't take kindly to fact-checkers here at AoS, Ken

115 Remember the time Molly played a shy and complex cute redhead?

Posted by: soothsayer at July 20, 2011 11:37 AM (G/zuv)

And remember when Meg Ryan played a 30something single womn searching for true love? A real change-of-pace for her, it was.

(Stolen from Craig Kilborn)

116 I have a question... Why does anyone need help filling out a form?  Can't we just fire most of these helpers?

Goes back to the job function of the woman in question..

Her job is to give out paychecks from Daddy Gubbmint.  In order to do her job, the people asking for the paychecks need help with the paperwork. 

Then her job is secure with handing out checks.   And so on and so forth. . .

It's a vicious circle.. 

117
Remember the time Julia Roberts played a quirky professional woman who always had trouble finding a man?

118 He's ordered retraining.

If this retraining was to clean toilets, along with the appropriate reduction in pay, then that would be good...

119 s Curmudgeon wrote, there's a good chance that it's set up to cause more work for the employee if she cancels the claim.

So what?? It's not like they would have to increase their pace or workload, They can still take their sweet time, take their breaks every two hours and still go home after their few hours of actual work

120 Ohio Orders Restraining of Medicaid Officials

121 Posted by: beedubya

Hey, have you been following the case of the Mason teacher charged with sexual contact w/students - 16 counts?

She first claimed that she didn't do it. She then changed her plea to not guilty by reason of insanity as she says she wasn't mentally competent and these boys took advantage of her (no really!)

122 The admiral killing thing is from Voltaire, not Adm. Nelson.

I can't tell if Ace meant it as a joke.

123 Remember the time Julia Roberts played a quirky professional woman who always had trouble finding a man?

which time?

124

So what?? It's not like they would have to increase their pace or workload, They can still take their sweet time, take their breaks every two hours and still go home after their few hours of actual work

You aren't getting it. It isn't just more work. It is also intense scrutiny of the employee. Is s/he "raaaaycist" for denying some poor ethnic's claim, no matter how fraudulent, for example? Perverse incentives lead to buck passing.

In fairness, Perverse incentives are not only true of government. It was also true of large hidebound US conglomerates of the 1960's and 1970's, which is why the Japanese ate their lunches in the1980's.

125 I don't think that denials are rare because it would cause an individual employee more work. I think it's more like they think "Fuck it. It's not my money"

126 Corresponding to this is the report yesterday that countless Federal agencies have had termination rates so low, that you're more likely to die of a lightning strike, a Godzilla strike, a nuclear war, heart failure from too much boredom and insufficient exercise at work, or any other cause than you are to be fired from the Federal government.

Many agencies reported 0% termination rates. Their spokespersons indicated it was further proof: they have perfect employees and perfect hiring processes.

This is absolute garbage. I work in proximity with enterprise risk and ethics daily for a global Fortune 250 firm. No process and its controls is structured to create perfection. When you find 0% termination, that's immediately taken as evidence of total systemic control failure (ask a statistician about what 0% tells you in any model). People inject noise into systems. Employees have lives, have affairs, get divorced, get into massive debt, get into drugs and all sorts of other problems. Even well intentioned ones get into investments, businesses or other ventures that sometimes fail. Money pressures occur. Job pressures. Distractions. And invariably, people do bad things or don't do good things, and have to be let go.

0%??? Government is PERFECT??? No. Government has completely, utterly failed. That's the only way you get a 0%. But there is something much more alarming in this 0%. Most of our systemic controls in organizational management are effectual and focus on communicating and signalling appropriate and inappropriate behaviors. As such, these systems need to provide recurring evidence of their presence. Call it a token firing, but when an employee crosses the guard rails and does something quite prohibited, there is at least 20% of the employee population that requires the evidencing of external control action to keep their behavior within the guardrails.

When Julie steals money at work, Bob notices Julie's theft, and sees that management doesn't give a damn - Julie keeps her job - then the Bob 20%'ers begin breaking the rules as well. We're going to eventually uncover a Federal government that is rotted out from decades of termite infestation. From my own encounters with corruption and "looking the other way" behavior occurring in the USDA with respect to farm subsidies (including my own experience being stiff-armed by USDA officials when refusing participation with the extension of subsidies following the purchase of property that was enrolled by the prior owner), I expect to find the whole Federal infrastructure is unsalvageable. Sending people to training is laughable. Gut, tear down, rip out, and replace with an entirely different, minimalist model. Stop spending $5 to take $1 from me and give you $0.20.

127 That's it, don't fire me. Give me a week of classes with catered lunches. It'll be like a paid vacation!

128 Remember that Family Guy episode where every character used the same hand expression - palms out, fingers down - for every situation?

129 Isn't fraud on a government form a felony?

If she's telling someone how to commit fraud, as an official, shouldn't it also be a felony?

Seems like the only thing that needs to be done is make it obvious that jail time is on the line.

And loss of pension, retirement, etc.

130 So what?? It's not like they would have to increase their pace or workload, They can still take their sweet time, take their breaks every two hours and still go home after their few hours of actual work
Posted by: beedubya

Because obviously the path of least resistance is to fill the claim and move on to the next one, that's why. If the system is full of perverse incentives to just fill the claim then will there be fraud, I can guaran-damn-tee it.

131 130 I don't think that denials are rare because it would cause an individual employee more work. I think it's more like they think "Fuck it. It's not my money"   It is probably a combination of both apathy/laziness and the "fuck it, it's not my money" mentality. 

132 The admiral killing thing is from Voltaire, not Adm. Nelson.

At his last stand, Waterloo, Napoleon decidedly ordered his artillery on his own troops, sacrificed in vain effort to turn the tide from his only combat defeat. Evidently one such sacrifice was the straw that broke the camel's back.

133 Can't we just let these people give out the free waffles?

134 How does one gain experience fucking monkeys? By cutting a slit in a banana and putting a tranquilizer inside it. So I've heard.

135 Extremely well put, Multitude.

136 >>>If she's telling someone how to commit fraud, as an official, shouldn't it also be a felony? I'm not sure if it qualifies as a conspiracy. A conspiracy is an agreement that one person will commit a crime. I don't know if she's agreeing to that. I don't think that telling someone HOW to commit a crime is itself conspiratorial. But I don't know.

137 OT re: Rep. Allen West (from Weasel Zippers)...TEH FUNNEH!

http://emilyslist.org/action/standwithdws_20110720a/

138

<i>Is it just me or is the "Employee Manual" treated as exactly what it is -- a corporate legal CYA document with little connection to the real world?</i>

I didn't know that there was anyone else who perceived this.  Mom asks why you don't write, Ace...

139 OMG...Cuntessa Brewer just tried to put some GOP congress guy Mo Brooks, AL on the spot when he made the statement that we are not heading into a depression when she said it was necessary to raise the debt ceiling to avoid one.

She asked not without a lot of snark how he would know that and if he had a degree in economics.

He said yep..and he graduated Summa Cum Laude

140 >>>I can't tell if Ace meant it as a joke. No i thought it was nelson. I'll correct.

141 I can't tell if Ace meant it as a joke.

Jon Stewart says it's always comedy if he screws up.

142 Last time I filled out a government form, last May, every page had a warning for fraud and perjury. 5 years in prison and $50,000 per.

Every single page had it on the bottom. Yet the lady still told us to lie to get some money.

143 I'll correct.

Jees. Never admit mistakes.  Blame someone.

144 Retraining is good. It'll probably be accompanied by a quiz at the end (easy, five questions; basically an attendance sheet) that the trainees have to sign their names to. Some big companies do that for safety and sexual harassment.

145 Hey, have you been following the case of the Mason teacher charged with sexual contact w/students - 16 counts?

She first claimed that she didn't do it. She then changed her plea to not guilty by reason of insanity as she says she wasn't mentally competent and these boys took advantage of her (no really!)

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 20, 2011 12:07 PM (1xB5r)

Heh! Yeah....I have friends who have kids there and it was no big secret among the students.

I went to two different high schools and each had a female teacher who was extra fond of the male students. Both were Spanish teachers 

Ay, caramba!

146

 Is it just me or is the "Employee Manual" treated as exactly what it is -- a corporate legal CYA document with little connection to the real world?Posted by: Ace at 10:56 AM

Actually most employee manuals for anything that deals with the public are really good descriptions of how to get away with illegal or at least unethical actions.  Think about it.  I worked in retail and the security manuals had terrific descriptions of employee and customer theft.  When I worked for a non-profit it had lots of details on how employees and clients/consumers would attempt to defraud not only us but the government.  Now, an unethical employee could certainly learn how to, not just CYA, but do a bit af defrauding of their own  by simply covering  up or not reporting others or for that matter even family members.  And given that many have been on the job for years it gets easier all the time.

As I said in a post on the other thread, for most government employees who deal with entitlement programs it is much easier to look the other way then to go through the paperwork, time, and scrutiny involved in reporting fraud.  And why should they when most of the people who are let go from the programs find their way back with little problem.  I saw it all the time, it's a revolving door.  Again the excuse is it's for the children.  Yeah, sure it is.

147 <sub>By cutting a slit in a banana and putting a tranquilizer inside it.

So I've heard.</sub>

Wish my printer had ink. I'm never gonna be able to remember that without printing it out. My zoo trip isn't until next week.

148 Why can't you give Blondes 15 minute breaks at work? It's too hard to retrain them.

149 @ 144 quick meme, scumbag liberal can't pay bills need more credit cards

150 _{I have friends who have kids there and it was no big secret among the students.}

How 'bout forkin over that there phone number, Boss?

151 Jees. Never admit mistakes.  Blame someone.

Posted by: cherry π at July 20, 2011 12:17 PM (OhYCU)

Ummmm, you've figured out my, uhhhhh, strategy!

152 Heh! Yeah....I have friends who have kids there and it was no big secret among the students.

Should be one hellluva trial. I can't believe the judge is allowing this crap defense.

153 Sometimes it seems like you scroll forever to get to the comments on this site...

154 142 OT re: Rep. Allen West (from Weasel Zippers)...TEH FUNNEH!

http://emilyslist.org/action/standwithdws_20110720a/

Posted by: billygoat at July 20, 2011 12:14 PM (Cwo/J)

It wasn't a real petition, just a fundraising deal.

Disappointing, I wanted to sign up Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann.

Also, Emily's List are racists.

155
  Is it just me, or do these examples show a real lack of moral grounding among way too many?  (  My, my, is that rhetorical?)

  Lack of moral and ethical grounding can be traced directly back to the parenting, I suspect. If you want to influence current behavior, then maybe instilling prior behavioral patterns are the ultimate solution.  Everything I see here to affect change is after the fact, not much is directed to not encouraging said behavior in the FIRST place.  One wonders how much change that would entail overall, from infancy to adulthood.

156

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 20, 2011 12:07 PM (1xB5r)

Speaking of criminal cases, have y'all heard the latest on the teenager who bludgeoned his parents to death with a hammer in FLA?  He's claiming he'd taken 3 ecstasy tabs and was possessed by the Devil. 

Yeah, that'll fly.

157 Retraining is good. It'll probably be accompanied by a quiz at the end (easy, five questions; basically an attendance sheet) that the trainees have to sign their names to. Some big companies do that for safety and sexual harassment.

Posted by: FireHorse

 

Pointy haird boss: Wally, what have you been doing all week?

Wally: I have been diligently working my way through the online sexual harrassment module.

Pointy haired boss: Wally, we don't have an online sexual harrassment module.

Wally: Oh. That might explain why all the actors seemed to be so happy.

158

Disappointing, I wanted to sign up Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann.

Also, Emily's List are racists.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 20, 2011 12:22 PM (T0NGe)

AD -- I wanted to sign up as well...; I just found their statement to be pretty funny!

159 Why are injecting French history into this discussion?

160 O/T and extremely interesting:

Man's call for Obama assassination is free speech, not crime, court rules

Ace's migraines get worse in 3...2...1...

161

Speaking of criminal cases, have y'all heard the latest on the teenager who bludgeoned his parents to death with a hammer in FLA?  He's claiming he'd taken 3 ecstasy tabs and was possessed by the Devil. 

Yeah, that'll fly.

Posted by: MWR

 

Translation: He took three ecstasy tabs, which possessed him, which wasn't too difficult as there was already a vacancy. Whether he is a or The Devil remains to be seen, but his audition is rather impressive.

162

Last time I filled out a government form, last May, every page had a warning for fraud and perjury. 5 years in prison and $50,000 per.

Whenever I get mail from the government, I save the envelopes -- the ones that say "Penalty for private use, $300" -- and use it for shopping lists and stuff.

Commie fascists telling me what paper I can and can't use. What are they going to do? Send a CIA Stationery Chief after me to make sure I'm bringing government-approved scrap paper to the grocery store?

163

Speaking of criminal cases, have y'all heard the latest on the teenager who bludgeoned his parents to death with a hammer in FLA?  He's claiming he'd taken 3 ecstasy tabs and was possessed by the Devil. 

Yeah, that'll fly.

Posted by: MWR at July 20, 2011 12:25 PM (4df7R)

So why didn't he kill his party guests too?

164 yes, ace is right. Firing gummint employees is worth every penny. Conservatism needs to be redefined from just patriotism and killing bad guys, as PJ O'rourke said, we need to reform government and ensure that the dems don't get to create all these cancer cells in the american body politic. We need to emphasize service to the public and personal responsibility. Right now, gummint jobs are merely entitlement programs without responsibility.

165 Lack of moral and ethical grounding can be traced directly back to the parenting, I suspect. If you want to influence current behavior, then maybe instilling prior behavioral patterns are the ultimate solution.  Everything I see here to affect change is after the fact, not much is directed to not encouraging said behavior in the FIRST place.  One wonders how much change that would entail overall, from infancy to adulthood.

Posted by: irongrampa at July 20, 2011 12:23 PM (ud5dN)

This.  Most of the ills of society, IMO, can be traced directly to lack of basic morality, conscience, and humility.  Mooches don't care about leeching off the taxpayers because they've got no sense of morality, and they won't express their gratefulness for what aid they receive because they have no humility.  The government hacks who give away taxpayer money with a rubber stamp of approval don't care because they've got no sense of morality, and they won't apologize because they have no conscience. 

(insert social ill here) could be prevented if parents raised their damn kids correctly, and the government didn't tell them HOW to raise their kids.

166

Adm. Byng fought the Frogs at Minorca and then was courtmarshaled by his masters and executed (by firing squad) for being tentative, not winning, and getting his ships damaged (altho none were lost). 

The British Admiralty charged him with not following thru.  Actually they were hiding the fact that they gave Byng squat to do the job.  He was seriously out-gunned for what he was tasked to do.

167 _{"Penalty for private use, $300" -- and use it for shopping lists and stuff.}

Heh.And here I thought I was the only angry lone nut.

I use all official forms to start the fire in the smoker each week.

It feels good not to be alone in a rebellion.

168 13
I never liked the name Gibbons.

It reminds me of fucking monkeys.

Posted by: sooth3P0 at July 20, 2011 11:07 AM (G/zuv)

Rule #1:  You DO NOT talk about Monkey Fuck Club.

Rule #2  You DO NOT talk about Monkey Fuck Club.

169

#170: Not quite that. Yes, morality and Xtian ethics are best.

However, when a system is set up to burden those who are scrupulous and allows those who cut corners to thrive, perverse incentives result. I see this in the Civil Service occupations daily.

170 _{Rule #1:  You DO NOT talk about Monkey Fuck Club.}

We still cool to post our videos on the Yahoo group site, right?

171

Posted by: FireHorse at July 20, 2011 12:28 PM (DXbG2)

The "Penalty for private use" warning and subsequent fine is to prevent public employees from taking home boxes of government-purchased envelopes and using them for personal correspondence instead of buying envelopes themselves.  If they could stamp that on everything, from pencils to lunchroom napkins, believe me, the gubmint would.

172 OT re: Rep. Allen West (from Weasel Zippers)...TEH FUNNEH!

http://emilyslist.org/action/standwithdws_20110720a/

Posted by: billygoat at July 20, 2011 12:14 PM (Cwo/J)

I wonder how many 'Mike Hunts' and 'Harry Snatch'  responded to this? 

173 ace is right about the incentives. there's a whistleblower cash incentive to reporting a company cheating the government. not so for reporting a government employee.

174 A better solution, IMO: start by investigating the boss and, if it flows from him in any way, fire his corrupt ass. Then prosecute.

The O'Keefe video is the investigation. It's called failure to supervise. It doesn't matter if the boss explicitly instructed his employees in how and when to defraud the public. It just matters that it is happening under his watch. I'm not sure why this is a hard decision. The woman and her immediate supervisor go immediately. Then the investigation. Then a whole bunch more people go.

175

However, when a system is set up to burden those who are scrupulous and allows those who cut corners to thrive, perverse incentives result. I see this in the Civil Service occupations daily.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at July 20, 2011 12:33 PM (ujg0T)

I see your point, Curmudgeon.  But my point is that the people who cut corners are increasing because the lack of basic morality (and common sense, for that matter) is increasing, too.  There are always going to be jerks, louts, and layabouts; there are just a lot more now, because nobody holds them accountable.

176 @180--Heh. All goes back to family values, doesn't it?  Maybe the proponents of that value system were on to something.

  Imagine that.

177 I really wanted to sign that Debbie Washerwoman-Slutz petition.

178 @164/cherry -  Why are injecting French history into this discussion?

How's the saying go? Those who fail to study history are condemned to... work for 250% the going market rate in a Federal bureaucracy while stealing shit, working an honest two hours a day, taking months of vacation time, enjoying two hour lunches, and generally rotting away the fabric of American society.

Let me flip around your question for a more serious engagement - why would you feel looking at history and previous failures of government would *not* be meaningful? There are three periods I'd suggest merit extremely important examination - the collapse of French monarchy that led to the revolution, bloodshed, dictatorship and tyranny, the revolutions across Europe of 1848, and the failure and collapse of the Weimar Republic.

There are invaluable observations from each that are quite relevant to our contemporary condition. Just because we have iPhones and Facebook doesn't change the fact that structurally, we have more in common with the disconnected parliamentary models which only represent the financial elites that theorists like Carl Schmitt spoke to in his analysis of the irrelevance, failure and collapse of pre-Fascist Germany. I'd actually encourage you pick up Schmitt's "The Crisis of Parliamentary Democracy", read it, and then ask your question again of yourself. You'll probably find yourself shocked as it appears Schmitt is writing of contemporary American political conditions, not early 1920s German Weimar erosion and eventual shift into totalitarianism.

Obama's rise does also parallel what many historical political analysts have commented; his rise was out of the bourgeoisie, with full support of middle class intellectuals (identical to Germany's experience). Prominent academics, media and cultural figures all embraced. If you look at the Germany Party's 25-point platform, and just adjust the localizing words (e.g. instead of "Property", refer to "Stock Market", update the geography, update the corporate hatred and call for seizure and control to being over the oil companies and the banks), and then take the whole Jewish question and outsource it to be consequentially resolved by Middle East entities and thus no longer an American Problem, then the platform is nearly identical with the progressive Democratic agenda.

Should we evaluate Schmitt and the Weimar collapse, and look at historical lessons to perhaps try to avoid an arising of the Progressive Reich in America? Can humans actually use history to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past? Your question may be correct in its rhetorical resonance... given the hordes of unthinking Obama faithful in spite of all the evidence that he's even more the horror than Bush, you may unfortunately be right.

179 I guess I should have said... screw the Frenchman, stick with Nelson.

180 Not getting fired would be lower on my list of concerns than 'not going to jail'.

181

Re-Education Camps of Ohio, brought to you by ACORN.

"You got to get your mind right!"

"What we have here is a FAILURE to communicate surreptitiously."

182 For what it's worth: by all accounts, Admiral Nelson was well hung, though.

183 "pour encourager les autres"

184

The only time in my working life that I had to get food stamps and welfare was for 3 months in 1979 (pregnant, two small children, ex had left, no child support).  They had sent a check for the whole amount for March, even though I told the caseworker that I would be returning to work in the middle of the month.  I called him to tell him that and did he want me to return half the money.  There was a 30-45 second silence, he said no, there was no procedure for returning the money, thanked me, and hung up without another word. 

That was my only experience with the welfare system.  A person who was flabbergasted that I wanted to be honest.  So this does not surprise me in the least. 

185 Fired? Suborning the defrauding of the Federal Government by an employee of the same is a mere firing offense? I guess next you'll be saying police officers who shoot unarmed citizens who are in violation of no law within their own homes should be suspended with pay or put on desk duty.

186

I enjoyed your thoughts on this matter.  A word about this, however:

"Now, some might say that that enables the welfare state by increasing its performance. Well, perhaps. But it also puts us in a position of credibility and authority to start making statements about what should be consolidated or closed down. If we became known as the Party of Smaller but High-Functioning Government we'd be in a better position to make it smaller still."

Be wary.  You are approaching the campaign strategies of Swedish nanny-state political parties:  running on who can deliver the nanny-state services best. 

The real problem is paring the benefits and adjusting the expectations of the populace.  Weaning is a cruel procedure but a necessary one.  Also, you have to be able to fire civil servants.  Yes, there should be random inspections and "stings" (or "surprise quizzes") for all employees, with dire consequences for those who fail.  Those tests should be done by private firms with no ties to the bureaucracy.

James O'Keefe, I've just presented you with a business idea.