January 10, 2011
— SPADES-OF: ACE

Also "well-liked in conservative circles."
Earlier I gave credence to the unproven speculation that Jared Lee Loughner got his obsession over grammar and mind control from David Wynn Miller. I said "maybe, maybe not."
Well, I'll keep an open mind, but it should be noted that if Loughner was a disciple of Miller's he had a funny way of showing it: Loughner's writing is nothing at all like Miller's. Nothing at all. Loughler writes in childish syllogisms, the wisdom of the town idiot (with normal capitalization). Miller writes in something that looks like moron machine code (and all caps).
Further, their reasons for obsessing over grammar are entirely different. Loughler thought that grammar could be used by the state for mind control, and he believed that by hijacking and changing grammar, he could control his own mind, and enter, literally, into a heaven-like dreamworld.
Miller seems to write in Dalek-speak not to change the world but to change his legal category -- he thinks this is the way states write (I am guessing he's getting this from captions in legal opinions or legislative code) and ergo, absurdly, if he writes the way states do in lawsuit captions or legislation he will gain the attributes of statehood. Kind of a Cargo Cult, backwards-logic dementia.
Point is, they don't write the same and they don't write oddly for the same purpose. They have nothing at all in common, not even the word "grammar" -- Loughner speaks of "grammar" whereas Miller speaks of "syntax."
I don't mind the writer of that article I cited doing some Internet Detective-work but at the end of the day this is a swing and a miss, unless there's more coming -- they have nothing at all in common except both are stupid, near illiterate, crazy, and assign a lunaticly-high-value to the power of grammar and/or syntax.
Loughner easily could have signaled his interest in the "ideas" of DAVID-WYNN: MILLER -- by simply writing his name the same way. He didn't. And that's the easiest thing in the world to do. (See the author line of each of the last four posts. Pretty simple!)
And yet, despite these two having nothing in common, no evidence that Loughner ever even heard of David Wynn: Miller, we are assured that Loughner followed in the thoughts of David-Wynn: Miller, and of course that David-Wynn: Miller is "well-liked in conservative circles."
Fuck them, fuck them all. I am sick of the unending blood libel. Calling someone a "murderer" or inciter of murder isn't very civil now is it?
Picture thanks to Uncle Jefe.
I Forgot My Point: This Internet Detective piece -- which is almost certainly in the category of "nice try, but wrong" -- is the only evidence they have that he has anything to do with the right at all, so of course it is the big idea of the day.
It shows how desperate they are.
Posted by: SPADES-OF: ACE at
05:19 PM
| Comments (117)
Post contains 495 words, total size 3 kb.
Posted by: fluffy at January 10, 2011 05:22 PM (SwkdU)
Posted by: alexthechick at January 10, 2011 05:22 PM (bQ5xy)
Posted by: Dan at January 10, 2011 05:23 PM (mXBxH)
Posted by: Jeff B. at January 10, 2011 05:23 PM (NjYDy)
BTW - "this is a swing in a miss" - either she was a little stretched out after last night with me, or you meant "a swing and a miss"...
Whaddaya MEAN she says she doesn't even know me...?
Posted by: RightThinker at January 10, 2011 05:23 PM (KmHbv)
both are bat-shit crazy, but at least the media didn't blame Nixon or Agnew for the Tate-LaBianca killings
Posted by: SantaRosaStan, still NOT watching Shep at January 10, 2011 05:24 PM (UqKQV)
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 10, 2011 05:26 PM (bxiXv)
Posted by: eman at January 10, 2011 05:28 PM (0aJSF)
Posted by: RightThinker at January 10, 2011 05:28 PM (KmHbv)
Posted by: fluffy at January 10, 2011 05:28 PM (SwkdU)
Posted by: moki at January 10, 2011 05:28 PM (dZmFh)
Which is why we got him. He was also fixated on his foods--believing that the exact combination was necessary for his brain to function and not decay.
He wrote daily epistles with a stubby #2 pencil, on any paper he could find--- often sheets of hand towels.
So I'd open his chart to look at his labs and make notes about our latest conversation (about having not yet given him the perfect combination for brain function).
Out would fly sheets of paper, all written exactly like Loughler & Miller. Signs, symbols, diagrams, notes and even the longitude-latitude of the moment of this thoughts (what's creepy is I almost understood what he meant).
I've seen the same since from other guys.
Ask anyone who works in psychiatrics--- this fracturing and over examination of communication structure is the sign of a misfunctioning brain, not anything more.
Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at January 10, 2011 05:29 PM (fa9yq)
Posted by: SarahW at January 10, 2011 05:29 PM (Z4T49)
Posted by: Dan at January 10, 2011 05:29 PM (mXBxH)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at January 10, 2011 05:29 PM (EiH7n)
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 10, 2011 09:26 PM (bxiXv)
You have at least 90 years of liberal shitbaggery to support that statement.
Posted by: William Jefferson at January 10, 2011 05:31 PM (x3YFz)
If someone, God forbid, takes a shot at Palin, we're really at the abyss.
Posted by: The Hammer at January 10, 2011 05:31 PM (32ubA)
Yeah! Fuck all of those bastards whose first reaction to this was "this is probably a right-wing lunatic," or some approximation thereof.
Denounce yourself, Ace!
Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at January 10, 2011 05:32 PM (jmJF+)
If someone, God forbid, takes a shot at Palin, we're really at the abyss.
Posted by: The Hammer at January 10, 2011 09:31 PM (32ubA)
They'll likely get return fire.
Posted by: William Jefferson at January 10, 2011 05:33 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: COMPILER:WISE-ASS at January 10, 2011 05:33 PM (SwkdU)
Posted by: CoolCzech at January 10, 2011 05:36 PM (tJjm/)
Alternate explanation of his "Language" as programing...
Neal Stephansons's book, "Snow Crash". Cyber punk book whose premise is that the Brain is programable through an ancient low level "operating system" (language) of the brain... that Babylonians actually understood.
Cool fiction based on the idea that language is a programing tool for the brain, but takes it a step further into the "machine code" of the brain...
Would be interesting to see if that book is in his library, because the more I think on it, the more it "fits".... even to the dreaming stuff...
Posted by: Romeo13 at January 10, 2011 05:36 PM (AdK6a)
I've seen the same since from other guys.
Ask anyone who works in psychiatrics--- this fracturing and over examination of communication structure is the sign of a misfunctioning brain, not anything more.
Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at January 10, 2011 09:29 PM (fa9yq)
Scientific Societies get papers written it this way all the time for submission into their proceedings with wild theories of everything in them. They print them in the conference books just like the real ones.
Posted by: Oldcat at January 10, 2011 05:36 PM (z1N6a)
Posted by: Todd at January 10, 2011 05:36 PM (9TcI8)
Posted by: SarahW
It maybe that they realize on some level that they aren't sharing the same 'world' as the rest of us and immediately jump to communication as the source of the 'problem.'
Hopefully one day we'll be able to find a pill for it whatever the mechanism.
Posted by: goldbricker esq at January 10, 2011 05:36 PM (h2t8r)
Posted by: ORWELL: DESIGNATE GEORGE at January 10, 2011 05:36 PM (AZGON)
Posted by: alexthechick at January 10, 2011 09:22 PM (bQ5xy)
As I understand it, the "public figure" aspect pretty much means that they have to prove that Krugman (a) knew the truth and lied about it and (b) did it out of malice. I was under the impression that reckless disregard for the truth wasn't enough.
Posted by: AmishDude at January 10, 2011 05:37 PM (BvBKY)
Posted by: ORWELL: DESIGNATE GEORGE at January 10, 2011 05:37 PM (AZGON)
Loughler half the time uses grammar when he means language or vocabulary. Loughler's crap is run of the mill leftist philosophy/logic BS. Think Donald Sutherland's professor in Animal House with the whole " What if our universe is just an atom in a finger nail" spiel.
The amazing thing is how the left has managed to make anti-government a right wing designation simply because they want less of it. It was always anyone who is anti-government was left wing but they sent those guys underground in the 70's when they officially took hold of every part of government except the military. Miller is a leftist. Just because you don't like paying taxes it doesn't mean you are a conservative.
Posted by: Rocks at January 10, 2011 05:38 PM (WxagK)
Cool fiction based on the idea that language is a programing tool for the brain, but takes it a step further into the "machine code" of the brain...
Would be interesting to see if that book is in his library, because the more I think on it, the more it "fits".... even to the dreaming stuff...
Posted by: Romeo13 at January 10, 2011 09:36 PM (AdK6a)
Babel-17 by Sam Delaney was similar. There was a conspiracy that used this 'perfect language' and the key was that once you started thinking in it, you were made a member of it by that very fact of using it to think with.
Posted by: Oldcat at January 10, 2011 05:38 PM (z1N6a)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at January 10, 2011 05:38 PM (EiH7n)
Posted by: moki at January 10, 2011 05:39 PM (dZmFh)
Looks like Loughner was anti-war. You know - just like all those ...other leftists.
“On July 7, 2010, Loughner posted his assertion that the war(s) in Iraq and Afghanistan ‘is a war crime from the Geneva Convention articles of 1949.”
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at January 10, 2011 05:39 PM (0fzsA)
However, the chances that he has a DU handle? Pretty good, I'd think.
Posted by: AmishDude at January 10, 2011 05:40 PM (BvBKY)
Posted by: CoolCzech at January 10, 2011 05:40 PM (tJjm/)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at January 10, 2011 05:40 PM (eOXTH)
Posted by: eman at January 10, 2011 05:40 PM (0aJSF)
SF Writers that knew Hubbard said that he said the secret to success was to find what people would buy and sell it to them. A year or so later and he published Dianetics.
Posted by: Oldcat at January 10, 2011 05:41 PM (z1N6a)
Posted by: The Hammer at January 10, 2011 05:41 PM (32ubA)
Paul Krugman should be laughed off the political stage. He's a hack. He's a liar. He knows nothing about economics. He's an idiot of the highest order.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at January 10, 2011 05:41 PM (0fzsA)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at January 10, 2011 09:40 PM (eOXTH)
Read the "Global Warming II" Post, just after the mug shot.
Posted by: Oldcat at January 10, 2011 05:41 PM (z1N6a)
Posted by: AmishDude at January 10, 2011 09:37 PM (BvBKY)
If it was, there wouldn't be a Liberal left standing.
On the other hand, there wouldn't be a lawyer left standing either.
Go for it.
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 10, 2011 05:42 PM (bxiXv)
Posted by: ORWELL: DESIGNATE GEORGE at January 10, 2011 05:43 PM (AZGON)
LOWERCASE:NO
STICK_TYPE = FUCK
...is a minor bit of comedic genius.
Posted by: Jeff B. at January 10, 2011 05:44 PM (NjYDy)
Posted by: Sponge at January 10, 2011 05:44 PM (CdX98)
Posted by: Oldcat
Astounding Science Fiction and Fact, May: 1950. Period dot. Semi-colon.
Posted by: goldbricker esq at January 10, 2011 05:45 PM (h2t8r)
Just what will it take to finally shun these assholes?
Posted by: eman at January 10, 2011 09:28 PM (0aJSF)
Assholes like Barack Obama? 1 election cycle. to answer your question.
Here's my political "hit list:" And by "hit" I mean people that need to be thrown the fuck out of office, lest some liberal shitgobbler mistake this post as a threat on someone's life.
1) Charlie "I'm a bought and sold shitbucket mafia good-ole-boy fucknuckle" Rangel
2) Maxine "Is that a shiny?" Waters
3) Nancy "does my face look fake?" Pelosi
4) Sheila "Hold up, whitey! You white folk are all racist!" Jackson-Lee
Just a start
4)
Posted by: William Jefferson at January 10, 2011 05:45 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: ORWELL: DESIGNATE GEORGE at January 10, 2011 05:45 PM (AZGON)
I've never seen the left so desperate.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at January 10, 2011 09:45 PM (0fzsA)
They act the same when they think they're winning as when they think they're losing, it's hard to tell which is which.
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 10, 2011 05:48 PM (bxiXv)
Posted by: CoolCzech at January 10, 2011 05:49 PM (tJjm/)
Are those like the first comedy porn flicks??
Posted by: CoolCzech at January 10, 2011 09:49 PM (tJjm/)
Bow Chicka Wow Wow!
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 10, 2011 05:50 PM (bxiXv)
As a student nurse I once had a schizophrenic woman, who'd just shot off her chin, ask me my secret for happiness. It is a secret and I did not tell her.
The real psycho in Arizona is currently Sheriff Dipsnit, possibly the new DNC chair.
I do hope the Ducks beat the Thugs tonight. Carry on.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 05:50 PM (zFyaZ)
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 05:51 PM (x3YFz)
Jared I and used to hang out at the mall; in the desert; darkness makes the sun go away
WHERE'S THAT CONGRESS-BITCH ???????????
Posted by: UNIT-DESIGNATE: SantaRosaStan at January 10, 2011 05:52 PM (UqKQV)
Posted by: Reiver at January 10, 2011 05:53 PM (RFTUX)
Posted by: dagny at January 10, 2011 05:53 PM (+Z6ve)
Posted by: ORWELL: DESIGNATE GEORGE at January 10, 2011 05:55 PM (AZGON)
As a student nurse I once had a schizophrenic woman, who'd just shot off her chin, ask me my secret for happiness. It is a secret and I did not tell her.
The real psycho in Arizona is currently Sheriff Dipsnit, possibly the new DNC chair.
I do hope the Ducks beat the Thugs tonight. Carry on.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 09:50 PM (zFyaZ)
You didn't tell her what makes you happy because? You're just fucking evil or it's a huge SECRET?? She shot her jaw off, was looking for help and you decided to just say FU because you're all "wtfever, bitch/" really?
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 05:55 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at January 10, 2011 05:55 PM (EiH7n)
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 05:58 PM (zFyaZ)
Posted by: CoolCzech at January 10, 2011 05:58 PM (tJjm/)
Posted by: Topsecretk9 at January 10, 2011 05:59 PM (8x3SC)
As a student nurse I once had a schizophrenic woman, who'd just shot off her chin, ask me my secret for happiness. It is a secret and I did not tell her.
The real psycho in Arizona is currently Sheriff Dipsnit, possibly the new DNC chair.
I do hope the Ducks beat the Thugs tonight. Carry on.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 09:50 PM (zFyaZ)I hope you're not the nurse in the ER that someday I hope to never visit.
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 05:59 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: Major Nidal Hasan at January 10, 2011 06:00 PM (AZGON)
Posted by: eman at January 10, 2011 06:01 PM (0aJSF)
OK, ace is making an argument about this syntax...that means...welll... I mean I'm... no, I can't... I'm a little man, I'm a little man, he's... he's a great man! I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas...
.
.
.
So I'll just say that I hate that picture of Sheriff Buford T. Justice of Texas being used to represent Sheriff Dipshit of Texas.
Sherrif Buford T. Justice was a pompus, arrogant, fat-bellied, flat assed, skinny legged strutting bantam rooster of a man.
And a wonderful character to watch on the screen.
He made you laugh at him, then with him, and finally, at the end of the first Smokey and the Bandit, to begrudingly respect the man as a worthy, tenacious adversary.
Sheriff Dipshit brings none of that to the table. The more you see and learn of him, the more contemptible he seems.
He isn't fit to lick the boot of Sheriff Buford T. Justice, let alone hold his hat like Junior did...
Kiss my ass and rot in hell, Dipshit.
Posted by: ed at January 10, 2011 06:01 PM (u44uf)
Posted by: goozer at January 10, 2011 06:01 PM (F1aIq)
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 09:58 PM (zFyaZ)
You said: someone shot herself in the face. You were the nurse. She asked you what made you happy and you declined to answer.
This has nothing to do with whether or not this is AoS. That's some cold hearted shit.
Hint: Make some shit up.
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 06:03 PM (x3YFz)
Good heavens, I was kidding. I honestly don't remember what I said, as it was 200 years ago, but I am sure it was therapeutrid. I also had a lady blurt out she was "Queen for a Day" in the middle of the x-ray department (she was in happy manic stage). Student nurses just sort of wing it. I hope you don't wake up in my ER, either, as I don't currently have one.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 06:04 PM (zFyaZ)
Good heavens, I was kidding. I honestly don't remember what I said, as it was 200 years ago, but I am sure it was therapeutrid. I also had a lady blurt out she was "Queen for a Day" in the middle of the x-ray department (she was in happy manic stage). Student nurses just sort of wing it. I hope you don't wake up in my ER, either, as I don't currently have one.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 10:04 PM (zFyaZ)
Thank god you never joined the military as a combat medic. Fuckin' A.
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 06:07 PM (x3YFz)
There is now way, no way, you are the fruit of my loins. When I get home I'm gonna smack your momma squar in the mouth! Somanabitch!
Posted by: Rocks at January 10, 2011 06:08 PM (WxagK)
Posted by: Sheriff Dupnik at January 10, 2011 06:08 PM (AZGON)
Posted by: Serious Cat at January 10, 2011 06:09 PM (CiSO8)
Rocks at January 10, 2011 10:08 PM (WxagK)
Heh.
Junior: Look Daddy, a big ole' ugly alligator.
Sheriff Justice: That reminds me, I gotta call your mama tonight.
Posted by: ed at January 10, 2011 06:10 PM (u44uf)
Good heavens, I was kidding. I honestly don't remember what I said, as it was 200 years ago, but I am sure it was therapeutrid. I also had a lady blurt out she was "Queen for a Day" in the middle of the x-ray department (she was in happy manic stage). Student nurses just sort of wing it. I hope you don't wake up in my ER, either, as I don't currently have one.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 10:04 PM (zFyaZ)
Thank god you never joined the military as a combat medic. Fuckin' A.
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 10:07 PM (x3YFz)
and it's unfair for me to expect that you could be a combat medic, or anything close. Sorry. I just took exception to your post
As a student nurse I once had a schizophrenic woman, who'd just shot off her chin, ask me my secret for happiness. It is a secret and I did not tell her.
I tend to overreact. Forgive me, and best wishes.
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 06:12 PM (x3YFz)
Sheriff Justice: Be advised, this is Sherrif Buford T. Justice of Texas in high speed pursuit of a black Trans-Am
Sheriff "Big Ed": Texas? Be advised that you are out of your jurisdiction and we have the situation under control.
Sheriff Justice: Damn blast it, don't you hear too good? I said that I'm in high speed pursuit!
Sheriff "Big Ed": Roger, but the fact that you are in high speed pursuit is not germaine to the situation.
Sheriff Justice: The God-damn Germans ain't got nothing to do with this!!!!
Posted by: ed at January 10, 2011 06:15 PM (u44uf)
Posted by: ed at January 10, 2011 06:19 PM (u44uf)
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Posted by: China-store at January 10, 2011 06:38 PM (y4983)
I tend to overreact. Forgive me, and best wishes.
Posted by: tangonine at January 10, 2011 10:12 PM (x3YFz)
Damit, Understatement of the Year award goes in January AGAIN.
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 10, 2011 06:54 PM (bxiXv)
there is alot of suffering involved in many cases of mental illness, those that are the ill, those that try to help them. and of course if meds don't work, or left untreated (we don't know this guys deal yet) sometimes in severe cases horrible things occur.
i don't want to lessen the severity of what this man did, it was horrible , wrong and caused so much pain for so many, cannot imagine the tears of anguish the victims and their families are experiencing right now and for years to come.
but mental illness is a really bad deal It's just like having cancer in severe cases, it can be treated some are helped, some are not.
and again many people have levels of mental or hormonal or chemical illness, from sadness where anti depressants help ,, to anxiety , to something so bad.. anyway i have no idea why i'm typing this.
i might add for those that don't know, clinical depression or schizophrenia are not something you can control or just get over.
and all people that have degrees of some type of illness are not apt to murder others.
Posted by: willow at January 10, 2011 06:57 PM (h+qn8)
And "Lee", wow. Talk about your obvious hook-up with those wild-ass Confederacy boys, huh?
WAKE UP, PEOPLE!!
(and, btw, what was Sirhan Sirhan's middle name? Was it Sirhan? Possible explanation?)
Posted by: SKYNET at January 10, 2011 07:00 PM (D6Uk6)
Posted by: TheQuietMan at January 10, 2011 07:01 PM (p1hEB)
I will come out of my time-out corner long enough to say that I do wish Sheriff Dipstick would wake up in my ER.
All forgiven, I did not mean to offend anyone but Sheriff Dipnutt in Arizona who makes me livid with rage overflowing.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 07:03 PM (zFyaZ)
Posted by: Whippet at January 10, 2011 07:06 PM (KTSqp)
Posted by: willow at January 10, 2011 07:07 PM (h+qn8)
But as we've been chipping away at the "moderate" Republicans in the House, I think we should start showing constituents in specific House districts just what their reps are doing. Most of what's left of their party in the House is pretty far-right, but I'm sure there are plenty of voters in those districts that are ready for something else. By all means, target the stupid Senators, but these loons in the House need to be exposed.
ENOUGH!
Posted by: DailyKos at January 10, 2011 07:37 PM (kb0wl)
i might add for those that don't know, clinical depression or schizophrenia are not something you can control or just get over.
Posted by: willow at January 10, 2011 10:57 PM (h+qnNot being able to control your actions is about as horrifying a fate as you can imagine. Especially when it involves such mental distortions that you don't even know how far around the bend you are.
Doesn't make the consequences any less, doesn't mean people should get light sentences because of it. I never understood that, unless you only think penalties are for punishment.
You're trying to protect other people too, right?
Ain't nothing about this scene that ain't sick-sad.
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 10, 2011 08:15 PM (bxiXv)
I laughed loudly at ChristyBlinkys post. That Tangonine person is adip who pulled the same antic on another poster last night.
Tangonine- change your m.o. or better yet, STFU.
Vim Toot!
Posted by: Mica Vim Toot at January 10, 2011 08:21 PM (6MqD9)
Mental illness is very hard with family members. I had a cousin who was a paranoid schizophrenic and heard the lyrics of music speaking to him: messages. He was a nice guy, but hard to be around. He did get what he needed to live independently as best as he could (with family support when he was not alienating them for various reasons). It is tough on all involved, and very sad, as I once knew him as a normal guy. Then, like this Jared mass murderer, he became schizophrenic in his early 20's with a psychotic break one day. He was back and forth in mental health centers for years and then got more in control with medications and therapy. He alienates people because he will, out of no where, have enough and that's that and he will leave the family gathering or wedding or whatever. He does not like crowds. We all have done what we can and try to help him when we are able.
Posted by: ChristieBlinky at January 10, 2011 08:27 PM (zFyaZ)
Posted by: Topsecretk9 at January 10, 2011 08:28 PM (8x3SC)
You're trying to protect other people too, right?
Ain't nothing about this scene that ain't sick-sad.
Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at January 11, 2011 12:15 AM (bxiXv
there has to be a consequence, (for the victims and himself)but i don't know have an answer,
Posted by: willow at January 10, 2011 08:45 PM (h+qn8)
Posted by: willow at January 10, 2011 08:51 PM (h+qn8)
Posted by: eman at January 10, 2011 09:49 PM (0aJSF)
Posted by: Kerry at January 11, 2011 06:23 AM (a/VXa)
Left, Right or center, Laughner thought the political process and government was the bad guy one and all a part of that grammer and literacy conspiracy against him.
Anyone can see that M.O.O.N. That spells crazy as a bedbug.
Posted by: HEP-T at January 11, 2011 09:12 AM (fSckw)
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Posted by: designer shoes at January 20, 2011 10:14 PM (iFZdH)
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Posted by: RightThinker at January 10, 2011 05:21 PM (KmHbv)