1 the president is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure........

2 Perry would do far better to do what other GOP pioneers in this area have done, and stick to the basics. First, emphasize that he won't mess with anyone over 55. Second, lay out ideas about what he wants to put in place for people my age. (The Chilean model, which Herman Cain invoked, is one of the best ideas for this, although there are others.)

The problem with trying to do this is the actual "non-debate" format they are using. These debates are worthless for actually debating an issue.

All they have been so far is nothing but a venue for the press goods to level gotcha attacks at Republicans.

The question is "how could Perry have given a good answer in a 30 second response".

3 Un. E. Lect. Uh. Bull.

4 How about Perry just support the Ryan plan? Wouldn't that be easier? And then he makes take a stand on the Ryan plan, also, and puts him at odds with House Rs if he's against it.

5

Don't talk about the system's solvency, but about all the wealth that it is locking up, never to be invested in American businesses. Talk about how those paying in could well end up passing a mere fraction of their lifelong contributions to their children.

You can't pass along your contributions now.  When you kick it, unless your kids are minors, they don't get shit from SS.  Arrrrrggggghhhhhh.

Okay.  Breathing deeply and calmly now.  Yes, the pragmatist in me says to explain the situation in calmer terms.  The rest of me is screaming "But it's insolvent!  It is!  Stop.  Fucking.  Lying about this!"

I guess I'm in the camp that if we can't have a hard conversation about this now, we never will because it is too late.  Which is not to say that considering the manner in which to approach it is bad, it's just that, as I keep saying, I am sick to death of being told that my money being stolen from me means jackshit. 

6 Perry will be the last man standing whether you like it or not, I believe this.

7 Standard disclaimer: I am an insufferable pessimist. While expectations were admittedly high before the GOP debate liberal propaganda witch trial began, Perry's performance had me reaching for a can of Hemlock brand beer.

8
This is a mere symptom of Rick Perry's shortcomings.

The man delivers thin gruel.

9 I was impressed with Mitt's poise and Perry's fire.  If only we could graft them. 

Regardless, while I have lots of doubts about Mitt, I would vote for him over the clueless oneder.  Anecdotally, I have heard lots of middle of the roaders, including Dems, say they'd have no problem with Mitt, but would with Perry.  My guess is that once the primary is over, he would be far the more formidable candidate for us. 

As 1 55 year-old, I would still take a return of the money I put into SS than the current program.  At least I'd know that some bottomfeeding politician wasn't going to take it from me. 

10 Gee, I wonder if anyone so inclined to enter the race at a date set in the future while remaining in third place was taking notes? Pretty good strategy if you ask me.

11 I guess I'm in the camp that if we can't have a hard conversation about this now, we never will because it is too late. Put your money on "we never will." It's politically unpossible. The economy's date with DOOM will be kept, enforced by influences not susceptible to politics.

12 Sigh.  So it never ends, because it's too hard.

Until, of course, it ends because we didn't do what was hard.

Someone hand me some asprin, my head hurts.

13 >>>Gee, I wonder if anyone so inclined to enter the race at a date set in the future while remaining in third place was taking notes? Pretty good strategy if you ask me. OMG RUN SARAH RUN!!!! Every little thing she does is magic.

14 I think he needs to make the case that if we don't reform now and you are on social security, the whole program may end entirely. Ironically, we're trying to save social security (and Medicare).

I think we need to use the language that Obama's reckless spending will "necessarily" result in the ending of SS and MC in the same way that C&T was designed to "necessarily" result in high energy prices.

Always back to Obama, always back to the Democrats.

15 I'm reposting my response to Jeff B. here. *** Jeff B. Well speaking of optics..... I think that's where he emphasized his point well. Here is what he said from the transcript: PERRY: Well, I think any of us that want to go back and change 70 years of what's been going on in this country is probably going to have a difficult time. And rather than spending a lot of time talking about what those folks were doing back in the '30s and the '40s, it's a nice intellectual conversation, but the fact is we have got to be focussed on how we're going to change this program. And people who are on Social Security today, men and women who are receiving those benefits today, or individuals at my age that are in line pretty quick to get them, they don't need to worry about anything. But I think the Republican candidates are talking about ways to transition this program, and it is a monstrous lie. It is a Ponzi scheme to tell our kids that are 25 or 30 years old today, you're paying into a program that's going to be there. Anybody that's for the status quo with Social Security today is involved with a monstrous lie to our kids, and it's not right. But it is more interesting what he did while he said that. He looked right at the camera and through it to the audience at home and made them that promise. I agree it's a narrow swing bridge to tell the audience that the government has essentially been lying to them, and then to look them dead in the eye like that and make that kind of promise. But I happen to think that it highlighted his willingness to dare to tell the truth. It's extremely hard to do that in an eight way debate-so it *shocked* me when he looked right to the audience at home. Now....granted I think lazy Journalists-that simply read the transcript and are relying on the post debate spin doctor's of the other candidates are spreading the- "Perry didn't reassure seniors" contagion-like a wild fire....

16 And begone, undead terrorist sock!

17 9 Pep,

If Mitt backs himself into a corner and can't reform the siphon on our national economic engine then what good is he?

Ace, I agree but unfortunately I don't see how Perry can make the case in 30 seconds in a way that would not give Mitt free shots at his solar plexus if Mitt chooses to be Obama's stunt double. 

Mitt had better understand if he secures the nomination by being guardian of the status quo on entitlements he will not be able to play the Barack 'pivot to the problem" game 9 or 11 times like Barack has.....

the press will devour him.

18 @13
Is it just mu imagination, or was there a bit of sarcasm there?

19

Govenor Perry appears to be the type of guy who learns from his mistakes (and admits them! unlike the preznit) and lands on his feet. I believe he will improve in coming debates and learn to clarify his points.

He was fighting fires and flame throwers from all sides last night in his first debate. He will be fine and more prepared in the future.

20 Well let's do this Sarah Palin thing-what the hell. Did anyone see her Facebook posting where she expressed how *shocked* absolutely *shocked* she was that the unions turned on her once she was the Republican VP. Look that just simply illustrates that Alaska is a demographic where you might not learn too much street sense. Sarah Palin didn't know until then that unions will pop a cap in your.....anyways....if you're Republican?

21 OMG RUN SARAH RUN!!!!

Please note that's not the first comment he/she made.  The first comment was, of course, a slam on someone who is actually running.

Classy.

22

If Perry had come in there and hit everything with both guns blazing.....then he would've been called a "cowboy" and "unpresidential".

Perry did just fine.

Perry called the SCofMF an "abject liar"....and applauded Newt when he tore into the libmoderators.  He should get some props for that.

23 Perry can handle the press whereas mittens would start crying if they piled on him.

24 as a former 25 year old, and present day 31 year old.. you can be damn sure I vote on issues like Social Security... Ponzi Scheme is absolutely the best way to talk about social security, keep repeating it until it gets through peoples thick skulls. I've been using the same incendiary language since i became really politically aware about the time I went off to college.

25 How long until the SCoaMF campaign has a commercial of Perry pushing grandma off the cliff and keeping the wheelchair?

26 I might need to polish up my AGW / Climate Science response.

27 Getting it out of the way, as I'm biased here. I don't think there was winner per se. Romney looked good on some questions, Perry better on others. Bachmann even looked fairly decent; for her.

But I've been reading polling on all the websites (not indicative of much at this point) and Perry ran away with it. Some polls even had Romney sitting in 3rd behind Newt or Bachmann.

I think the consensus from what I'm reading is akin to Lowry's. We need a fighter. And we have one in Perry. And we won't find that in Romney (my words) coming up against Obama in the general.

Perry needs to sounds more convincing (and coherent) on a few issues but the guy that can throw down the gauntlet should (and will) win the day.

The media is going to be nasty as they've ever been. They went full in in 2008 - they're invested.. I want someone who won't just lie there and take it when the shit hits the fan. If you don't think we don't need a fighter well then I just don't know what to say in response to that. Seriously, I don't.

28

Rush fixin' to slay the MSNBC Brian Williams...."are you having trouble sleeping at night?" He is noting the audience response to capital punishment. Ahahaha. Let 'er rip, Rush!

My take: Rick Perry scares the crap out of liberals.

29 I vote for the Chilean model. Herman Cain has his sh!t together on this one baby.

30 What troubles one most is how, after all we have learned about this miserable "debate" format, held by MFM inquisitors, the candidates with the possible exception of Newt (!) answered questions. Eh? What? Yes, answered questions. That is not what this needs to be happening. Every response to Brian Catamite Williams questions should not be an answer. It should be the answer to the question you should have been asked, namely why has Obama so utterly failed on the issue at hand? Mr. Wankpaddle Politicrunt asks about, say, menial jobs in Texas, you answer about no jobs at all in the last UE report. About minimum wage, you answer about no wages at all for the highest unemployment rate for blacks in decades.

31 Okay.  Breathing deeply and calmly now.  Yes, the pragmatist in me says to explain the situation in calmer terms.  The rest of me is screaming "But it's insolvent!  It is!  Stop.  Fucking.  Lying about this!" That. Plus, sack up, Orwell. You're acting like this shit is over. You think I don't have a backup plan? I've got at least three options to suppress and/or disenfranchise the senior citizen vote, only one of which involves introducing hallucinogens into the vats at the Ensure factory. Relax, homie.

32 If Mitt backs himself into a corner and can't reform the siphon on our national economic engine then what good is he?

That's the relevant question, isn't it.  There are other considerations, but the point is worth debating. 

One thing I noted was that Mitt was willing to say his plan would create I think 4M new jobs in 4 years.  Such certainty about economic projections has a bad flavor right now because of, well, you know.  That a cautious guy like Romney would say it means either that he thinks he needs to to win, or that he really believes it.  If he succeeds, he would join the ranks of the greats.

the press will devour him.

I actually kind of don't this.  They don't have the brains to match wits with him.  That's not to say they won't try.

33 Here's how Rick Perry can stomp a mudhole on the AGW issue:

AGW is based on computer models. We can't even develop a computer model that can accurately track the path of a hurricane -- there's too many variables. We can't - using computer models - even reliably predict the weather more than a few days out.

So now you expect me to swallow a bunch of job killing proposals to stop "Climate Change" based on a bunch of computer models? Sounds to me like a healthy degree of skepticism on the "science" of climate change is warranted.

On SS: Perry is right, and did look into the camera and say existing senior benefits would not be cut.

And yeah, I loved the "poor intel or an abject liar" line Perry torched Obama with.

34 NEWT SMASH!

35 SteamingPileofShit'12

36 Dear Rick Perry, b*tch! Does anyone voting in the Republican primary really care for more nuance in your answer? Hell to the NO!

37 I dunno. I'm an old guy on SS. Perry doesn't scare me. It can't be fixed if  it can't be held out in the light. I suspect most SS recipients  who scream and clutch themselves when entitlement reform is discussed, aren't very knowledgable about how bad the programs really  are for the country. Sure, there is a lot of selfishness, but that is true of any age class. They need to be educated. That is the job of the candidates. 

38 Your AGW answer.

39

I guess I'm in the camp that if we can't have a hard conversation about this now, we never will because it is too late. 

Count me there too. As W started his first term I had hopes it was the one thing he'd get right and that it might make up for his squishishness elsewhere.

Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind torpedoed those hopes.

40

As NRO's Maggie Gallagher and our own JeffB. wrote, all of Perry's passion and emphasis was on not backing down from his Ponzi scheme statement. He offered a brief, throwaway statement that seniors over 55 (I think he said) would be taken care of with no changes. But he did not hit that line with any kind of passion or reassurance, the way you really need to when you're talking about making changes to a program that a lot of people rely on.

Maybe Perry is just better at math, and honest enough to know what's coming -- like it or not.

41 I still like Perry, despite his performance last night.. (which I don't think was as bad as some are making it out as)..

But, here's the thing..  Talk about Social Security being unconstitutional and being a Ponzi scheme loses votes.  Period. 

I am not worried that he cannot get elected with that kind of talk...  I think i9t is still possible.  My worry is this..  Can we win back the Senate?  Can we retain big control of the House?

No reforms are possible without the Senate.  None.  All we will have is gridlock like we do now.  A President Perry would not even be able to shut down Obamacare without a GOP Senate.

We need another wave like we had in 2010.  Ryan's plan hurt the chances of that (and that says nothing about the worth of Ryan's plan, it says more about the talking points it gives Dem opponents.)

Having a prez nominee calling Social Security unconstitutional and a ponzi scheme hurts Senate and House candidates even more.

If Perry keeps it up, then I will probably vote for Romney, because he would have a much better chance to put in reforms.

42 11 George Orwell,

we have to try...I am not sacrificing 13% of my son and potential grandchildren's wealth potential without a fight so boomers can get 1200 a month for 21+ years.

1200*12= 14,400

14,400*21= 302,400

and that 300 grand is just social security without any cola potential thrown in for every boomer regardless of means assuming life expectency is met for them....

the average SS payout us 1177 a month and the life expectency today is 76.6 years.....

and growing....until maybe Obamacare starts it downward.

43 O/T, but re Bachmann's rebuttal:

"Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.), struggling to maintain visibility as a Republican presidential candidate, will rebut President ObamaÂ’s jobs speech to Congress on Thursday, her congressional office said.

BachmannÂ’s speech is scheduled for 8:30 p.m. in a House television studio, but will be timed to follow Obama.

There is no formal Republican response to ObamaÂ’s job speech, a void Bachmann appears poised to fill as she works to keep her name in the national discussion."

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for her to use her campaign infrastructure to do the rebuttal or do you think her campaign is reimbursing the House? 

44 Rick Perry snatched up Ronulus Prime and shook him like a dog. LIKE A DOG! I'm all in.

45 I think Perry did fine, Newt better, Mitt alright except attack on Perry i thought was distasteful.

I wish when agw would have come up it would have been an opportunity to spear EPA and the cost to do business in America, Jobs are needed!

Of course i realize the mfm did not want to deal with real issues, just wanted to play with the Rep candidates.

well played mfm well played, But not to the American population, and i bet many were sitting there thinking wth.

46

Does anyone voting in the Republican primary really care for more nuance in your answer?

 

There was no nuance. 

I was flailing.  I'll do better next time.

47 Hell, the AGW computer models can't predict the weather two weeks ago.

48 Naqamel Yep I think Perry bagged the pragmatist vote with his AGW answer.

49 What cannot continue, won't.

50 Bear in mind when I personally talk about who won and etc. I'm trying to just base that on neutral grounds -- performance, command of the facts, fluency, articulateness. Few people actually rate a debate solely on those things. I don't either. I never even bother listening to Ron Paul or Jon Huntsman, for example, except by accident. But Perry might have "won" in the sense people like him better than Romney, because of pre-existing problems with Romney, and yet Romney may have "won" if you ignore that stuff and just look at execution during the debate. As for 13, yes, it's sarcasm. Palin may be waiting to see if Perry implodes; that's not a bad strategy. But I'm tired of those claiming she's playing brilliant 4th dimensional chess. I think her supporters, annoyed to see her denigrated, start inventing somewhat preposterous narratives about the Grand Strategist.

51 Hence he needs Ryan or Rubio on the ticket if he wins.

52 Plus, sack up, Orwell. You're acting like this shit is over. ...a plan... only one of which involves introducing hallucinogens into the vats at the Ensure factory. Bless you, my Emperor. Sometimes the troops need a slap in the face. Hell, you can slap a dick in my face if it will help defeat SCOAMF.

53

28

My take: Rick Perry scares the crap out of liberals.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky at September 08, 2011 12:10 PM (fNdyx)

 

---------

Yes. Yes he does.

Perry even scares the shit out of Vladimir Putin. Out of all the candidates.....Putin has blasted only one. Rick Perry.

54 >>>Does anyone voting in the Republican primary really care for more nuance in your answer? I do, as I see it as a preview of a candidate's ability to sound thoughtful and persuasive in a general election campaign. And that's one thing Romney's doing-- he is doing his general election strategy, now.

55 27 Lu,

I think Newt "won" so far as being the best speaker and having the smartest replies to the newsies, but he is in essence not a realistic candidate....

the other was a draw or maybe Mitt on points, but the sucker punch has me wary of him in a way I was not.....

if Mitt wants the nomination bad enough to go donk lite on the smarter position for instant gratification it means he wants the job too much IMHO....

I am pondering the ramifications.

56 But, here's the thing..  Talk about Social Security being unconstitutional and being a Ponzi scheme loses votes.  Period. 

I think the unconstitutional stuff (which I haven't heard him resurrect recently, but I gather is in his book) is a non-starter.  It's sort of scary Ron Paul type stuff.  So I'd drop that altogether if I were him. 

But I don't think the Ponzi scheme characterization loses votes.  First, many don't even know what that means.  Second, it's just a metaphor (well, I guess a simile actually).  It's just a way of saying that SS is unsustainable as it is currently designed.  There's nothing inherently bad about saying that as long as you offer people some constructive reforms. 

57 I think her supporters, annoyed to see her denigrated, start inventing somewhat preposterous narratives about the Grand Strategist.

Kind of like Bush the Younger in that regard. Great poker player, my left...he just got rolled, where he didn't roll himself out of conviction (Medicare D, NCLB).

58 52, Bless you, my Emperor. Sometimes the troops need a slap in the face. Hell, you can slap a dick in my face if it will help defeat SCOAMF.


Ummm girls if you don't knock that shit off I'll low crawl your asses until your tongue falls out!!

59 Rick Perry, b*tch! Well you better get those damn fires out-if you really care about Global Warming!11

60 Talk about thin skins. I actually will support Perry if he is the nominee.

61 49 Toby,

indeed REALITY and the MARKET ALWAYS win....

the only way "social security is secure" is to raise the retirement age on my generation, reduce the rate of growth of benefit, raise the tax past the already ludicrous 13%, or go logan's run and reduce the recipients.... preferably through means testing.....

62

>>>Twenty-five-year-olds do not vote on Social Security. Do you remember being 25? Old people vote on Social Security.

I don't actually believe this anymore. What the brats don't really get is how much money they're actually contributing. I remember my first paycheck (diddly) and how much was taken out and I really never looked again. I couldn't be sure I wouldn't flip out and punch a geezer.

But I think the kids are a little more aware that it may be possible to abort the screwing they're getting, so they're paying attention.

Voters need to be told that, if they plan their vote because someone told them Perry was taking their bingo money away, then they're dooming their kids and should be ashamed of themselves. And to go die.

63

I think Perry was toungtied during the AGW question. He knew in his heart that the response he wanted to give, that of pulling out a pistol and shooting Jon Huntsman proving his dedication to ballistic science, alas would be frowned upon.

It was then he decided a stumbling answer was more appropriate.

64 ace he's [Mitt] is doing his general election strategy, now. Yep, and that's a mistake. He has to win the primary first.

65 I appreciate Perry's general sentiment a great deal, though I'd agree he will need to explain it a little better.   I'm still fairly young (36), and entitlements are my top issue.  I think there are a good number of us now, though almost certainly not a majority.

It's not an easy case to make, and quite easily demagouged, but I've been favoring candidates strongly that will at least say what needs to be said.  My first instinct with anyone that tries to soften it too much is that they will never be serious enough to actually do anything about entitlements, and there is no choice but to face the problem head on at this point.

66 Well you better get those damn fires out-if you really care about Global Warming!11

Posted by: Liberal Flower Child at September 08, 2011 12:19 PM (WE7lX)

 

You don't get it , do you? 

He will be the first to admit that he queefed on that AGW question.  He was unprepared and he flailed. 

If you refuse to see this, you are as deranged as a Palinbot or Paulian.

67 60 Sleepy-beans,

how very magnanimous of you, as I said last evening if Mitt makes the decision to secure his nomination through coopting DNC talking points and hamstringing ANY potential for entitlement reform he'll get my vote but not my time or my wallet....

if I wanted a dopey headed ecnomically illiterate entitlement slinging welfare state graft queen in office I'd have voted for Obama.

68 "Twenty-five-year-olds do not vote on Social Security. Do you remember being 25? Old people vote on Social Security."

I'm 29, and most definitely voting based on entitlement reform. I don't want to keep pouring my money into a broken system that will bankrupt long before I'm scheduled to get anything back.

And how many times do we need to remind the seniors that absolutely none (nada, zilch, zero) of the reforms put forth by any candidate, pundit, etc. touch the benefits of those 55 or older?

I'm sorry, but Perry's right about SS, no matter how bad the optics are. "Optics" is just a term to describe voters who don't know jack shit about policies. It's a real shame the electorate is so stupid and apathetic.

(Forgive me, I'm not in the mood to entertain realistic politics today. I know a presidential candidate must always have these considerations, though.)

69 Pretty good strategy < Grand Strategist

70 This guy is clearly unelectable

71 And that's one thing Romney's doing-- he is doing his general election strategy, now.<<< But how does that win the primary voters over? How do you excite the base with this rewarmed McCain pablum?

72 What do y'all think? Might it not be useful to turn nuanced answers to difficult questions, like Social Security, into attacks on the failures of SCOAMF? If it is necessary to avoid telling stark truths to the wider electorate, perhaps a moment that requires them should be turned into a moment that shifts attention to the demonstrably current failed policy on the issue at hand, the Obama policy. When the rhetorical heat focuses on SS entitlements and "what are you racist Republicans gonna do to Granny," perhaps the answer is to note what Obamacare will do to Granny far sooner. Yes, it's misdirection, but one of the arguments here seems to be that we need misdirection on certain subjects to win.

73

Early days yet.  Perry can get better.  But he has serious flaws to work on (as do all the other candidates, unfortunately, some of them being flaws that can't be worked on).

 

I still dont' like that he's terrible on immigration and a crony capitalist to the bone, but its good for him, the GOP, and all the other GOP candidates if he comes up with a less "scary" Social Security presentation, since scary noises about Social Security could taint the whole party. 

 

That said, something needs to be done about social security and platitudes won't cut it any more.  You need a soft sell, but you also need something to sell.

74 62 Spongeworthy,

even the 20 year old stoners I know get what a joke the Ponzi scheme is.....

there simply is no way around the math and Generations Y and Z are facing the same problem we Xers face on if anything a bigger scale....

Generation Y will be carrying parts of the boomers and us in their backpack with less population paying in than ours.

Thanks Birth Control and jane roe

75

>>>But how does that win the primary voters over?

It convinces them you can win.

Now, what you will then have won, different story.

76 he's [Mitt] is doing his general election strategy, now.

He only needs to win the GOP nomination by a vote.  After that, he will flatten O.  It is a risky, bold strategy that will either work beautifully or end up with him as VP or in a cabinet slot.  

77 David Freddeso is right when he says that Perry should talk about the ramifications of the unsustainable nature of Social Security. People need to know what the problem is and how that relates to their everyday lives. But he can do that while talking about the broken promises of D.C. politicians regarding Social Security while contrasting that with what he is going to do.

78 We know the Dems are going to hit whomever we nominate with mediscare attack after mediscare attack. How can we pile on one of our own with deceptive attacks meant to frighten seniors over false concerns in the primary and still decry the Dems' coming attacks? We can't. At yet that's exactly what a supposedly conservative panelist said Romney should do now on Fox and Friends this morning. I think that's why I'm so rankled on this subject today.

79 Romney is an awesome debater, and he probably had the better post debate team-but now it looks like Romney has the Liberal media carrying his water for him in his attacks on Perry. That's possibly winning the battle but not the war. The Liberal media essentially has cooties when the Republican primary electorate thinks of them and now we see them in bed with Romney. It's like we caught Mitt Romney swapping spit with Helen Thomas-and it's a turn off.

80 The Other View: A smattering of folks think Perry exceeded expectations and won the debate.

It's funny.  I agree.  Perry is the frontrunner after the debate.

The "ponzi scheme" stuff is silly.  It will backfire on his detractors.  If you don't think SS is a Ponzi scheme, you're an idiot and are unelectable.

81 I'm 29, and most definitely voting based on entitlement reform.

I'm a bit older (3 but I've always been aware that SS is a worse-than-Ponzi scheme and it needs to be wound down once the current 55-and-ups get theirs.  Then again, I'm not sure AoSHQ readers are a good representation of the GOP at large, let alone voters at large.

82 75 should read: Now, what they will have once you've won, different story.

83 pulling out a pistol and shooting Jon Huntsman proving his dedication to ballistic science, alas would be frowned upon. Not by me. -- May I suggest that attacking Obama at every turn is one reasonable way to conduct a primary campaign, because the natures of those attacks will perforce reveal very easily the differing approaches of the various GOP candidates.

84 Whaddya mean, "went" wrong from the star?.

A dumb idea that just happened to be unconstitutional is still a dumb idea.

85 78 Joe,

when bambi tries that you remind the senior citizens that Obamacare stole 1.7 trillion from Medicare....

*period*

the seniors KNOW who is raiding their cookie jar now....

that is why we kicked donk ass in 2010 in part.

86 "Twenty-five-year-olds do not vote on Social Security." Maybe not, but they vote on their futures, and they're not totally stupid. They're seeing their parents struggling. They're facing huge student loan payments. The President they loved has done nothing to help. And if they're lucky enough to remain employed, they're seeing FICA eat a chunk of their paychecks and funneling their earnings into the care of the same people who got us into this mess. All this won't transform them magically into Republicans, but it has made them unhappy and more willing to question the status-quo. A Presidential candidate just told them something that they've suspected but were afraid to say out loud - it's a scam. Which is a good start. If we want any chance of having those people on our side, then we need to respect them enough to tell them the cold hard truth. Not bland reassurances that there's no real emergency and that the government will fix everything when the time comes. That's what the Democrats (and most Republicans, to be fair) have been saying for decades. Why on earth would we want to throw away a major electoral issue by simply conceding the argument, especially when the argument is completely false?

87 Forgive me, I'm not in the mood to entertain realistic politics today.

You're new here, aren't you. 

Ace-I think the purity vs. pragmatism thing won't wait for you to start it.

88 I always love Mitt Romney until I see him in the debates. This is the second time that's happened btw. I don't know really what he does to turn me off. I think I get the idea that he will say anything to win. He's a good salesman- fast talking and it instinctually makes me not trust him perhaps.

89

I'm not a "senior" just yet, but I have worked continously for over 25 years and have had that social security money deduction, without my consent or "by your leaves" taken from my paychecks for as long as I can remember. I get the yearly announcement from SS regarding how much I can expect based upon my retirement date.

Now if you tell me I cannot or will not get the continually promised benefit of the hard-earned money that the government took from me - - well I'm pissed, worried and I'm looking for somebody to suffer because of it.

I'm gonna huff and puff and blow somebody's house down.

I don't fault Gov. Perry for pointing out the obvious - it is criminal (a "Ponzi scheme") to promise somebody a return on money invested where there is no chance of it. This is commonly accepted as fraud, and it is only made worse by the fact that I had absolutely no say in the taking of money that I earned by the sweat of my brow and toil of my hands. I wasn't born when the social security program was created and I wasn't old enough to vote when Medicaid started. So, I had no say in either of those programs. If the perception is that Gov. Perry can't win unless he softens his language regarding the reality of social security, so be it. But, there is, and rightfully should be, widespread outrage at this governmental theft of wages premised upon the false promise that I would have something to show for it when I'm ready to retire.

I am sick and tired of the government trying to tell me what to do about everything. I am sick and tired of working my whole life only to have part of the rewards of MY labor taken from me to pay for those who have no desire to work and would rather sponge a living from the government. I am sick and tired of the government taking my hard-earned money to spend on bloated federal do nothing agencies and programs.

Obama and his dishonest administration represent the epitome of governmental thievery. He and the parasites that voted for him are a blight on this great country. I cannot wait for November 2012. Gov. Perry is only saying what many of us who have obeyed the law and respected the authority of the federal government are now feeling. Watching Obama trying to devise new ways to screw this country over and/or steal even more money from me makes me sick to my stomach.

90 85 78 Joe,

when bambi tries that you remind the senior citizens that Obamacare stole 1.7 trillion from Medicare....

*period*

the seniors KNOW who is raiding their cookie jar now....

that is why we kicked donk ass in 2010 in part.

Posted by: sven10077 at September 08, 2011 12:28 PM (AEIYh)

Why aren't we doing that now? I have a hard time believing our candidate will have the balls to call it out in the general if he won't point it out now. Maybe one or more of the candidates are, I don't know. And that's the thing. I stay pretty connected, and I'm not hearing it get through the MBM filter.

91 I think the purity vs. pragmatism thing won't wait for you to start it. After all, a man's gotta fight about something. By the way, I would like to personally spoon-feed Brian Williams a sack of crow livers.

92

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at September 08, 2011 12:08 PM (jqLx3)

Yep, only in America do we put folks in Prison (Mahdoff) for the exact same things Politicians run for reelection on.

It is a classic Ponzi scheme.

93 I'm biased for Perry because I'm from Texas, but through my life in Texas Perry reminds me of people I always admired and looked up to because of their common sense no matter where I met them, he's going to be just fine for America.

94 How long until the SCoaMF campaign has a commercial of Perry pushing grandma off the cliff and keeping the wheelchair?
Posted by: © Sponge

He'll also plug grandma on the way down just to be sure she's dead.

95 81 Ian S.,

if anything we Morons are a harbinger of the future of our party...

I'm 39 it has been an issue my whole working life starting at 14....

my peers and coworkers at every level from the pizza joint to working for an airline to my current logistics job know they are being fleeced so long as they are under 50....

they were told as much back during the clinton era and donk or republican that data set convinced a lot of younger people.  Those even younger are even more aware than my peer group.

I do not think the baby boomer generation grasps how less popular than their parents they are what seemed noble as a payoff to the folks who stopped hitler seems overwrought towards the folks who protested Vietnam w/hanoi jane

96

It is a classic Ponzi scheme.

Posted by: Romeo13 at September 08, 2011 12:34 PM (NtXW4)

Classic Ponzi schemes are voluntary.

97 90 JoeinMD,

no need to start in on him this far from the campaign until he and the M$M start in on us....

a lot of Congresscritters pointed out the truth on the trail last fall....

it is inarguable fact part of bambicare is a raid on senior healthcare.

98

Romney seems so afraid of making a mistake on his pedestal. Timid. Careful. Polished. yada yada.

Rick Perry struck me as someone who is not timid,but needs a few rough edges polished. He showed unusual political courage in not backing down from the Ponzi scheme. He looked at the camera, without hesitation or normal political cowardice, and called Social Security for what it was (after telling seniors it is safe). He did not back down like many would (see: Romney) and dilute his answer. He also had the look of an armed and dangerous coyote killer on the death penalty issue. I like courage in my men, not namby-pamby wishy-washy limp flatworms (which Obama has from sushi).

Meanwhile, Ron Paul will produce a gallon of gas for a silver dime after he closes the treasury and Homeland Security and frees the slaves. I tried to listen but he has caught the crazy train.

99 96 Tami,

which makes this one if anything worse I didn't intend to be born a sucker honest

100 which makes this one if anything worse I didn't intend to be born a sucker honest

Posted by: sven10077 at September 08, 2011 12:36 PM (AEIYh)

Yes, it is worse....'we're all suckers now!'

101 89 MWTexas,

no you don't get it you will get your payout....too many of you guys not to pay you off but dear lord let MY age group take the hit of no benefit and wean the 29 year olds and below off and let this fucking monster die....

what part of "it is just part of the general fund stolen from your wages" do you not understand?

You guys never cared enough to fix it...we get it....

take the money let my age group do so please?

102

Okay.  Breathing deeply and calmly now.  Yes, the pragmatist in me says to explain the situation in calmer terms.  The rest of me is screaming "But it's insolvent!  It is!  Stop.  Fucking.  Lying about this!"

Posted by: alexthechick

I agree as well. The lying caused the subprime crisis (crap mortgages really are crap). It caused our spending problem ( we can't cut any more, and coked up cowboy monkey poets are essential). it is causing the continued pain with man-caused global whateverthef*ckwe'reexperiencing at the moment). It is causing us to play one money game after another (QE 1-).

Europe has been doing this for years and they are circling the bowl. We have a choice; pretend that ponzi schemes aren't really that, crap mortgages aren't, and the biggest lie of all; the only one that DOESN"T have to go on a budget and go without is the Federal government.

Or we can be the United States again. This nation was founded for one reason; a bunch of people decided that they didn't want to be Europeans anymore. We've forgotten that.

103 Right so it's actually worse than a ponzi scheme-given it's involuntary nature and then they tax your SS when they pay out. Some people have to pay federal income taxes on their Social Security benefits. This usually happens only if you have other substantial income (such as wages, self-employment, interest, dividends and other taxable income that must be reported on your tax return) in addition to your benefits. No one pays federal income tax on more than 85 percent of his or her Social Security benefits based on Internal Revenue Service (IRS) rules. If you: file a federal tax return as an "individual" and your combined income* is between $25,000 and $34,000, you may have to pay income tax on up to 50 percent of your benefits. more than $34,000, up to 85 percent of your benefits may be taxable. file a joint return, and you and your spouse have a combined income* that is between $32,000 and $44,000, you may have to pay income tax on up to 50 percent of your benefits more than $44,000, up to 85 percent of your benefits may be taxable. are married and file a separate tax return, you probably will pay taxes on your benefits. http://www.ssa.gov/planners/taxes.htm

104

If you have ever been a small business owner, and an Employer.....then you are painfully aware of the fact that you have to *match* ever dollar of Social Security that you withhold.

Many people are still unaware of this. This is a huge cost-of-doing-business, because when the Cap on the amount of Wages that are subject to SS is raised......the employers matching amount goes up too.

Unlike employer contributions to a 401K or similar pension plan.....the f'ing Federal Government gets to keep most of what the employer sends in as their matching contribution to their employee's Social Security 'account'.

So in many ways.....Social Security is even *worse* than a ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes are not required by law to participate in them.

105 the only way "social security is secure" is to raise the retirement age on my generation, reduce the rate of growth of benefit, raise the tax past the already ludicrous 13%, or go logan's run and reduce the recipients.... preferably through means testing.....

hey have already done that twice and they just spent the proceeds and then some. All it will do is give them another excuse to increase spending and turn SS into a true welfare scheme for the "poor".

They can not "fix" it. It needs to utterly collapse. The only thing they can do to it that would satisfy me is to come up with a plant to phase it out totally and eliminate it.

106

Classic Ponzi schemes are voluntary.

Posted by: Tami at September 08, 2011 12:35 PM (X6akg)

 

So is voting Dem.

107 It is good to see Ace acknowledging Perry's biggest image weakness.  His inability to make a case without being ham-handed and macho.  This is what I mean when I say that Texas isn't the rest of the country.  Big talk wins votes in TX.  It turns off lots of voters in the rest of the country.

I agree with the need for "straight talk."  But you can have an adult conversation about issues without scaring the shit out of people whose votes you need.  Perry's nod to preserving benefits for current retirees was pro-forma at best.  At best.  All anyone is going to focus on is the "Ponzi scheme" rhetoric.  He's a smart enough guy to have known that.  Or at least one would think he is.

The AGW answer was rambling and weak.  The death penalty answer was Texas bravado and pandering.  He had no answer to Romney's comment about the natural advantages of Texas not being something that Perry created and Perry was simply pathetic when Romney pointed out that Bush had better a better jobs record as TX governor.

The over/under on Perry's "lead" in polling?  11 days.

108

Twenty million Rush Limbaugh listeners now believe Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. Thanks, Rush! He the man. I think Rick Perry scored on this issue. But I am a biased redneck, I know.

Rick Perry has guts. Obama has Hawaiian parasites in his innards.

109 ace et al, you have to watch this video exchange between rick, oh how I love rick! and friedman, it's classic rick all the way!  link

It was on squawk box early this morning.  It took them long enough to finally put it up cause they left valerie's discussion of the prez's speech up there at the top all morning.

110 "You guys never cared enough to fix it...we get it...." Oddly, sven, I got the opposite from MWTexas' comment. I read it as: There will be righteous anger at some point. The longer that the can is kicked down the road, the worse it is for everyone.

111 105 Vic,

I agree that is why I posted what I did...

not calling MWTx out on a personal level either....

Vic some age group is going to have to get screwed....if it is mine I am willing to do so....

I'd really like my son or at least his future son to have that 13% of his wage to invest in a real account.

regards,
sven

112 It's like we caught Mitt Romney swapping spit with Helen Thomas-and...

BLLLLUUUURRRRRGGGHHH!!!!

113

Classic Ponzi schemes are voluntary.

Posted by: Tami at September 08, 2011 12:35 PM (X6akg)

The quote of the day, for me.

114 Big talk wins votes in TX.  It turns off lots of voters in the rest of the country.

I agree with the need for "straight talk."  But you can have an adult conversation about issues without scaring the shit out of people whose votes you need.  Perry's nod to preserving benefits for current retirees was pro-forma at best.  At best.  All anyone is going to focus on is the "Ponzi scheme" rhetoric.  He's a smart enough guy to have known that.  Or at least one would think he is.

Posted by: trumpetdaddy

 

The problems we face are not the result of people being scared. They are not the result of bravado. They are the result of bread and circuses. The derogatory comments about our problems being partly the result of our ruling class speaks to this. We are being lied to, and tough issues are being ignored. The whole perception of "I paid into SS means that money is there for me" is both symptomatic and the core of our problems. The money does not and has not existed. Greece's problem is that their people and their leaders are so screwed up, they STILL will not understand this.

115 Re SS, NRO Corner reminds us of what happened in 1980 in Carter v Reagan:

In September 1980, the DNC circulated old newspaper clippings quoting Reagan as saying that the program should be voluntary.  During his debate with Reagan, President Carter zeroed in on the issue, saying that such approaches “are very dangerous to the security, the well being and the peace of mind of the retired people of this country and those approaching retirement age.” And Democrats thought that one of the GipperÂ’s debate comments provided them with even more material: “The Social Security system was based on a false premise, with regard to how fast the number of workers would increase and how fast the number of retirees would increase.” Reagan, of course, won big.

116 trumpetguy So who is your candidate?

117

88 Tasker

You're not alone in that. Motor mouth Mitt reminds me of those fast talking infomercial guys.....I think a lot of people get that impression too.

The Left is drooling at the thought of having Romney to run against.

They probably already have their ad copy written about 'Mormon crazy underwear' and 'Religious Cult polygamy' type crap.

118 "The problems we face are not the result of people being scared. They are not the result of bravado. They are the result of bread and circuses." Well said. It boils down to simply this. Bread and circuses are a slippery slope that cannot be successfully negotiated.

119 Blacque Jacques Shellacque LOL! Ya it was probably too close to breakfast for that,ey? Ha!

120

The death penalty answer was Texas bravado and pandering. 

You know, there are many many many people I know outside of Texas who think he needed killin' is a perfectly cromulent position. 

For those of you saying Perry needed to say something else about the benefits for current retirees and imminently approaching retirees, what, exactly, do you want him to say.  From my reading of Perry's comments and then the reaction thereto, it seems that Perry's actual statement is being dismissed out of hand.  Okay, what, exactly, should he have said instead? 

121 110 FTL,

upon reflection i agree and I sincerely was not trying to call him or her out on a personal level....

the Boomers were the generation that could have phased it out the easiest had they cared enough about the system to study it as deeply as my age group has....

not being uppity nor saying we are smarter...just saying it had to be fixed when I was 10 and again in my adulthood....

they wasted a lot of political potential and wealth the nation had access to to chase a lot of socialist fairy tales as a generation.

It saddens me

122 I'm 26, I'm tired of politicians lying about Social Security and Medicare, and so are many of my friends. Even before I looked at my first check I knew that money wasn't going towards my retirement. It's even more scandalous that the government has been stealing money from seniors for decades now while continuing to promise that seniors will see those benefits (after some finger-pointing over the latest report from the Trustees). This needs to stop.

123 @120
Scanning Gallup's findings from this past decade, it looks like about two-thirds of Americans support the death penalty. 


(I'm actually not a proponent of it, but it would not color my vote for POTUS... or, frankly, for much of anything at this stage of the game.  It might be a tie-breaker between two hypothetically perfect candidates, but that's about it.)

124 The best comment I heard today was a description of the debate  The person said "it wasn't a debate, it was a weird new press conference format"

125 They probably already have their ad copy written about 'Mormon crazy underwear' and 'Religious Cult polygamy' type crap. Yep-and they are doing that damn projection- It's the religious right that won't vote Mormon-gasp! Then as soon as Mitt wins they'll fire up Big Love and they'll do news-dramadocumentaries on those evil vicious Mormon Utah gangs.

126 This entire discussion misses the point of why the Social Security talk is bad for us.

Obama and the Democrats are always going to prefer a contest where the Republican candidate has to defend himself on SS rather than talk about Obama's miserable economy.  This entire "Ponzi scheme" rhetoric is an own-goal.

Perry has nothing to offer on the biggest concern for most Americans, the economy, other than "Texas is great!"  Which Romney and the leftist moderators beat down dishonestly, but well, all night long.

If Rush has to bail out Perry's ass on SS today, Perry really stepped in it.  Perry allowed himself to get lost in the weeds.  Every answer should have been directed back to the pitiful economy.  I'm not saying anybody did any better at this last night, but for Perry to be the "front-runner," he needed to take command of the conversation on the economy.

to the contrary, he was defensive and prideful about Texas and allowed secondary issues, like SS, to derail what needed to be done last night.

127 Yeah, Perry running on the Texas economy is a real loser issue.
/s

128 Perry proved last night the benefit of blunt talk in changing the terms of a debate. Romney, et al can continue to discuss SS entitlement on democrat terms but Perry stood by his intention to discuss it in legal, moral and economic terms we're all familiar worth. Sure it seems risky to confront uncomfortable truths - that's why they're uncomfortable - but no pain, no gain. We'll never convince politicians to restructure and reform SS for the young until the 25-30 yr old voter Perry was talking about decides they're tired enough of being ripped off to do something about it. Perry's got us talking about what SS really is or is not. We'll see if a political tipping point is forming or not.

129 114, We are being lied to, and tough issues are being ignored

This is why this issue will backfire on Mitt and Obama.  It sets up Mitt/Obama as one of the lying crony establishment.

130

Rush has talked about how conservatives who've lived in blue states their whole life are sort of like battered spouses who are afraid to assert their views....and shrink when they see someone else do it.

Is this why some conservatives say they are "turned off" by Rick Perry's straight talking?

Perry is a fighter. That is what we need to put up against the Obama-media machine.

He is holding back right now, in this in-house fight against his fellow conservatives. If he is coming across as 'timid' in any way.....this is why.

131 Moreover, Romney very pointedly was willing to concede Texas' awesomeness and then immediately talk about how Rick Perry was simply along for the ride in Texas and hadn't done a whole lot to make Texas awesome.  In fact Perry did less than the last two Texas governors.

Perry had no answer to that charge.  And it is the charge that undercuts the entire rationale for his campaign.

132  This entire discussion misses the point of why the Social Security talk is bad for us.

So the response is to avoid the 12 trillion pound anvil hanging over this country?  Seriously, that's the response?  Ignore it?  How the hell can there be any discussion about the economy without discussing what is going to utterly cripple the US economy in less than 10 years, maybe, maybe 15? 

133

You know, I'm perfectly fine if a politician lies about his position on social security to get elected.

 

As long as his position is that its an unsustainable, unconstitutional unworkable boondoggle.  And he lies by pretending that maybe some of it can be salvaged.

134 Rush has talked about how conservatives who've lived in blue states their whole life are sort of like battered spouses who are afraid to assert their views....and shrink when they see someone else do it.

Stand up, you squishy RINO candy-asses!!!

135 In fact Perry did less than the last two Texas governors.

It depends on how you define "did."  In his first year, Perry vetoed a record number of bills.  If "doing less" means less government interference, I think that's a great thing.

136

@ trumpuppetdaddy

Your spin is so full of shit.

Perry *did* respond to Romney's lie about job creation being greater under Bush.....by saying "That's not True".... But the MSDNC cameras cut away from him as he was saying it.

Even though they were dimming Perry's words.....I heard it. A lot of people heard it.

137 santelli, beck and now rush have all hammered home the "social security IS a ponzi scheme" theme today, wonder if anyone else will join the crowd?

138 This is not a time for reassurance.  It is a time for blunt truth.

139 Perry had no answer to that charge. And it is the charge that undercuts the entire rationale for his campaign. Well look Mitt did what he had to do-but Texas has done well surrounded by the Obama Economy. I'm tempted to do an Alamo analogy but I'm sure it would backfire like a turdblossom pitched with a boomerang.

140 139 tasker,

why?

Texas was faced by a Constitution shredding overhyped strategisit cum messianic clown who was perfectly willing to murder every Texan if need be.....

kind of Like Jugears' pal Bill Ayers and us come to think of it

141 Cripes I was responding to this- Moreover, Romney very pointedly was willing to concede Texas' awesomeness and then immediately talk about how Rick Perry was simply along for the ride in Texas and hadn't done a whole lot to make Texas awesome. In fact Perry did less than the last two Texas governors. (Copied the wrong part of your comment.)

142 Yeah, ace, it's just really bad when a politician has actual principles and sticks to them.

And if that can't get you elected, then it's time to press the reset switch and start over.

143 Yeah.  Whining "that's not true" while the applause drowns you out is a big boy response.  Not.

Are you really trying to complain about MSDNC's camera work?  Seriously?

Very weak sauce.  Just face it.  Perry underwhelmed.

144 sven Ha! So the analogy works? Really rusty on the Alamo-haven't even watched the movie. I denounce myself.

145 "upon reflection i agree and I sincerely was not trying to call him or her out on a personal level...." Sorry, sven, I wasn't calling you out for what you said. I was pointing out that I was left with the opposite impression when I read MWTexas' comment. As for the substance at hand, I say the best course of action is to run the cold, hard truth up the flagpole and see who salutes. If demographics and public sentiment demand that we press forward with the fictions, then that establishes a boundary for me, and I can then redirect any energy I spend on helping to prevent the collapse to preparing to survive it.

146 Hard to square the (on mark) attack about how Obama is a job killing President that makes it difficult to do business with an attack that Rick Perry is just sitting there enjoying the ride in Texas.  Is it not?

147 Hey, Dad!

How OLD are you?

Too fuckin' old to have YOO here,back in my house and having to go door to door doing godamn' sales agin'!

Why?

Romney and the Democrats want you to know that anyone who fucks with SS wants you to starve!

Eh, could come to that I imagine...

Okay ,dad.

Just wanted you to know....

I was all for privatizing SS back in 2004 but it looks like we are all gonna STARVE here in 2011.

What can I say?

I am a terribly selfish child...

That 26% of every dime I ever earned, since the age of 13, at some truly crap-ass Resturaunt bussing jobs looks pretty sweet to you now, don't it?

(Yeah, pay no nevermind about that creepy Trevor kid,sos so as to  turning one of my nipples like a radio knob in the back room by the Freezor. Scared the bejeebus out of me until the "old" french lady chased him off me.  Thank Gawd, I punched in and punched out that day way back in the 80's

148

Also, every GOP politician should be accusing the Dems of trying to bankrupt social security.  We don't need to point out that the program itself is bankrupt, we just need to accuse the Dems of trying to bankrupt social security (by maintaining the status quo, but we won't be as vocal about that part).  The Dems will get defensive and propose crappy reforms like increasing social security taxes and reducing the benefits of the middle-class.  Which blunts their own criticisms against Republican plans to shore up social security.

That's the key: don't attack social security.  Attack the Democratic approach to social security.  Attack the Democratic management of social security.  Accuse them of running up huge Social Security debts and using Social Security money to fund stimulus spending.  Perry's mistake is saying that Social Security is a ponzi scheme.  He should be saying that Democrats are turning it into a ponzi scheme.   Say over and over again that Obama borrowed billions from Social Security to fund his stimulus without any plans for paying it back.  Then say that if you elect Republicans, we'll manage it the right way.  We'll fix the broken Democratic policies so that our country can keep our promises to our seniors while instituting sound financing to keep Social Security healthy for the young and the middle-class.  We will save Social Security from the Democrats.

 

And if the Democrats start blaming demography or the economy or whatever, blame them for that too.

 

We have accepted the Democratic framing that Social Security is the same thing as the current details of how the program is administered carried out into perpetuity.  So we always talk about changing Social Security, or getting rid of it, or whatever.  Instead we should act like we're in favor of Social Security as is and the stuff we'll do different is just administrative detail.  We're not fixing Social Security itself, we're fixing the Democratic mistakes on it.

149

The death penalty answer was Texas bravado and pandering.

 

Nonsense.  It was credible truth from a man who serves the people of his state.  There was a major swipe at Mario Cuomo and his ilk in that answer.

150 So the response is to avoid the 12 trillion pound anvil hanging over this country?  Seriously, that's the response?  Ignore it?  How the hell can there be any discussion about the economy without discussing what is going to utterly cripple the US economy in less than 10 years, maybe, maybe 15?

I think, quite honestly, that some people on the GOP side aren't really worried about the problem.  They just want Team Elephant to win and believe things will somehow work out.

At this point, we need somebody who actually will fix things.  This isn't an academic discussion anymore.  If we are afraid to mention SS reform during a GOP primary, how the hell are we going to make that argument in office while a hostile media attacks us around the clock?

151 145 FTL,

let's just say that a nation with vast resources, lower population, and a state ran theft scheme that is at least not put into the general fund looks better in your scenario.....

if the American people decided they liked the 13% vacuum forever that is okay....

I'll "like it" from afar.

The canadian system indexes benefit to a level that guarantees the pool has at least a 75 year pool from an age groups' birth and seperates "pension" from "welfare payment".....

pretty sad that the genuine socialist system article is better ran and more solvent than ours

152 Tasker - I'm not saying that Romney's attack was true or untrue.  I'm saying it was effective and Perry had no response other than whining "not true" while Romney's partisans drowned him out.

Romney took as given that Texas is awesome and conceded that everything Perry says about Texas is true.  And then he said, essentially, "so what, buddy, what did you do to make it that way?"  Perry had no coherent answer.  Romney framed Perry as not the tough-guy, take-charge doer of great Texan deeds and turned it around and basically said Perry was a care-taker governor. 

That ain't good for Perry.  Perry's rationale for running is that he's a creator of prosperity in Texas who will do for America what he did for Texas.  If doubt can be sown in that Perry narrative, that instead the good people of Texas did all of it, along with natural resources, then what do we need Perry for?  That's the case against him that almost cost Perry re-election last time out.

He ain't running against Hutchison and Medina, however.  This is the big leagues now.

153

Trumpetdaddy,

I don't know if I'm buying your point of view, but thanks for advocating it so ably.  This site badly needs a counterpoint to the Perry boosterism to sharpen up our wits.

154 150 BL,

indeed....

if Romney wins our nomination by promising the status quo what exactly about my preferred issues have I as a Republican won by baking him other than knowing the current clown and paymaster of the ponzi scheme is not in fact a cloward-piven fan?

155 By the way, if we're keeping score, Perry's retort that Dukakis created more jobs than Romney did was pretty effective and Romney didn't have a good response to it either.  Both Romney and Perry are going to have to up their game.

156 Romney framed Perry as not the tough-guy, take-charge doer of great Texan deeds and turned it around and basically said Perry was a care-taker governor.

That's better than Romney.  There were three Republican governors before him, and a Democrat afterward.  He's hardly one to talk about records.

He ain't running against Hutchison and Medina, however.  This is the big leagues now.

Mitt has won one election in his entire life, and got his ass beat by a fat southerner who pardoned a thousand people.

157 Mitt has won one election in his entire life, and got his ass beat by a fat southerner who pardoned a thousand people.

Yes, but keep in mind, this particular fat man was quite the huckster.

158 Perry may be right about it being a scheme, but talking about SS is indeed toxic if mentioned to anyone over 60.  Over 75?  They will defend SS no matter what.  They want their money at all costs, even if it means they know their own grandchildren won't get anything from it.  I've used this line on my own relatives and to my horror, they didn't care.  Don't change anything, even if its promised the changes won't affect them.  Its irrational but its reality. 

Perry is really playing with fire.  Seniors are mad as hatters when it comes to SS.  Like children playing with their blankie.  Crazy time. 

159 Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, worse the Supreme Court has said three times you have no rights to it.  If you doubt it is a Ponzi scheme then explain to me how it differs from what Bernie Madoff did, except of course Madoff couldn't force you to buy into his scheme.

160 @155.  Correct and well noted.  However, the damage was done by then to Perry.  That "response" from Perry sounds a lot like, "well I know I am but what are you?"  Romney left his bruise. 

Besides, Romney laid the groundwork for that Perry response by noting the natural advantages a Republican governor enjoys in TX vs, MA.  The implied retort to Perry's retort is then, "Well, look how little you did with all you were given whereas it is a miracle I got anything done with what I had dealt to me.  You got the moon and sat on your ass.  I got chicken shit and at least made some chicken salad."

Either way, the debate is now on Romney's terms.  Perry and his people should have anticipated this line of attack, given they faced it less than 18 months ago.

@156.  Agreed.  Romney isn't all that great, either.  Which makes it all the worse for Perry.  There is no honor in defeating a weak enemy.  And Perry lost to a weak enemy last night.

161
ummm... Obama himself said he may not be able to cut SS checks beginning in August.

162 Mitt has won one election in his entire life, and got his ass beat by a fat southerner who pardoned a thousand people.

Good repeatable quote there.

163 "Well, look how little you did with all you were given whereas it is a miracle I got anything done with what I had dealt to me.  You got the moon and sat on your ass.  I got chicken shit and at least made some chicken salad."

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 08, 2011 01:32 PM (dcoFe)

Which is the tired Mitt response, "Anything good was my idea.  Anything bad was the fault of the legislature who I was impotent against."  The response didn't work in '08.  It won't work now either.

Romney played some cutesy word-games last night, which is all he ever does.  He came across as a panderer who wanted to attack the new frontrunner.

164 The problem is that Perry actually tried to do that, reassuring those currently drawing welfare/social security (it is welfare, for 100% of recipients, and 0% of them deserve a penny).

The media just ignored Perry's initial reassuring comments, and focused on his Ponzi Scheme honesty.

There is no way to win.  They will omit anything they think helps him.  He must take the Palin route of working around the media to get his message across.  Romney is putting out democrat talking points that are frankly completely incorrect about Perry's views. 

We have a pretty screwed up system.

Anyway, I think those awarding Perry the win must be reading the transcripts instead of watching the video.  Perry comes across much better in the transcript.  On video he looked exhausted, frankly.  Romney looked smoother.  Perry will have to do better.  There's no doubt I'd vote Perry, but that doesn't mean he won the debate.

165 Good repeatable quote there.

Posted by: Vic at September 08, 2011 01:38 PM (M9Ie6)

Hey Vic!  Hope you're feeling better...

166 Uncle benny on CNBC now

167 @163.  Exactly.  Which is why Perry should have had a better response prepared.  Romney does this crap all the time.  It shouldn't have been a surprise that Romney would attack Perry's biggest selling point in that way. 

All of which paints Perry as not ready for prime time.

I love folks suggesting Perry needs to follow Palin's tactics. 

Again, what do I need Perry for if he has to be like Palin to get his message out when I can actually support the real deal?

168 Exactly.  Which is why Perry should have had a better response prepared.  Romney does this crap all the time.  It shouldn't have been a surprise that Romney would attack Perry's biggest selling point in that way.

I don't think Perry is in bad shape because of this.  In the debate last night it may have had some traction, but in post-debate analysis it's clear Romney was just being stupid.  Who was convinced by what Romney said?  The only people applauding his idiotic performance are the people who always applaud his performance.

I love folks suggesting Perry needs to follow Palin's tactics. 

I think that would be disastrous.  Palin's tactics have gotten her nothing.

169 "Again, what do I need Perry for if he has to be like Palin to get his message out when I can actually support the real deal?

Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 08, 2011 01:55 PM (dcoFe)"

Perry has been walking the walk for eleven years, running a state that is basically a large country.  He's been making zillions of decisions and fighting a powerful democrat operation in a difficult legislative environment kinda like DC.  Perry can't just get whatever he wants by fiat, but has to work legislators.  He has to run agencies.  He has to cut spending, even in the face of constant whining.

That's what Palin hasn't done. She's never been reelected.  She has far less experience.  She talks the talk.  Perry walks the walk.  I like Palin.  She's definitely one of the good guys.  She doesn't have enough experience to be a credible candidate.  For that matter, neither does Romney, in my opinion, since he was never reelected either,and frankly his governorship is not something to be proud of.  He didn't even run for reelection.  He was a democrat governor, for the most part, and you might as well elect a real democrat.  His attacks on Perry are right from Obama's playbook.  I can just vote for Obama if I want a democrat president.  I don't need Romney for that.

Anyway, Perry brings more than talk.  I agree to some extent he needs to utilize Palin's messaging.  Though not precisely.  He needs to take what works and drop what didn't.   He needs Newt's expertise, Palin's social media, and Romney's finesse.

170 @168  No, he's in worse shape.  All the negative stereotypes bandied about concerning Perry were validated last night.  He needed to kill it last night.  He manifestly did not do so.

If I was Perry, the thing I would want Rush Limbaugh talking about today was how I slayed it last night and why.  Not having to go into a 20 minute, educate the public lecture about why something I said about Social Security was actually true. 

When Rush has to waste time on his show backing and filling on your behalf right out of the gate, instead of raving about how great you were, you didn't do well.

This was a tremendous missed opportunity for Perry.

As to Palin, we'll see.

171 This was a tremendous missed opportunity for Perry.

Really?  Every media organization in the country is talking about Rick Perry today.  He's the frontrunner.

172 @169  The one thing that Sarah Palin has done that Rick Perry, and every one of the other contenders on that stage has never done is this:  Defeat an incumbent.

She's done it twice.  Incumbents of her own party in both cases.  And defeated a former two-term Democrat incumbent in the general election in 2006 after defeating the sitting Republican in the primary.

Of the candidates on that stage who have even faced an incumbent, they got slaughtered.  I'm talking to you, Mitt Romney.

This election will be about the performance of an incumbent president who is a SCFOAMF.  But he's still an incumbent with all of the advantages of incumbency, including a knee-pad press.

It would be nice to see our candidate be someone who has actually done that once or twice in their career.

173 All the negative stereotypes bandied about concerning Perry were validated last night.

No they weren't.  All the negative stereotypes about Romney were validated - that he'll say anything and shill shamelessly.  Perry needs to do better in the next debate, but then, that should be any candidates goal.

As to Palin, we'll see.
Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 08, 2011 02:08 PM (dcoFe)

I'm pretty sure after everything that Palin's ever done a legion of supporters has to go out and explain why it was clever.  It seems unfair to knock Perry for something Palin does routinely.

174 @171  They are talking about him on issues that don't matter like SS, evolution, and the death penalty.  He's getting press, that's for sure.  Not good press.

175 Hey Vic!  Hope you're feeling better...

Feeling better than I did after came out of OR. Felt like hammered dog squat then.

176 Perry is THE guy. He's the only one that is diametrically opposed to Obama and makes the difference really clear. He's the guy.

177 I'm pretty sure after everything that Palin's ever done a legion of supporters has to go out and explain why it was clever.  It seems unfair to knock Perry for something Palin does routinely.

That's a pretty pretzel you've got there.  Does it come in flavors?

178 Trumpetdaddy - think you're raising some good points.  At this point I am a Perry guy, and I don't think he was awful last night, but wasn't exactly strong either.  He will need to sharpen up his responses. 

You're spot on that Romney has little choice but to poke holes in results from Texas.  I appreciate the blue state/red state governor argument, which is part of why Pawlenty appealed to me more than most anybody else.  I just think it's a tightrope for Romney.  Perry needs to hit the note that it is hard to govern any state with this guy as our President, and I think that thwarts that line of attack pretty well.  Shouldn't be that hard for Perry to find the right note there quickly.  It is hard to square away that Obama is a disaster for business with Perry having it made in the shade in Texas. 

As long as Perry holds on to that strength he can pivot out of any number of difficult lines of questioning and return to jobs. 

Which kinda leads to the SS ponzi scheme thing.  He has to do a better job of selling it, but I really am looking exclusively for candidates that will state that the program is a failure directly.  If they can't say it in a primary, there is zero chance they will do anything about it in office.  But, again, it needs to be sold artfully.

I do not believe it is impossible to make the case.  Rasmussen polls that only 27% believe it is a Ponzi scheme.   That's not good.  Still, only 36% believe it is not a Ponzi scheme.  That means there are 37% that are still persuadable if someone has the stones and skill to make an extended effort to educate and inform.  That isn't surprising that there are so many undecideds, since so few in politics have been willing to step out on the ledge even as far as Perry has so far. 

Perry might not be the very best guy at making that case, but then Perry might be able to get a higher percentage of the votes in that 37% category with his jobs record...if he successfully fends off Romney, Obama, et al attempts to take that political weapon away from him. 

179 Posted by: trumpetdaddy at September 08, 2011 02:16 PM (dcoFe)

She also resigned from office and spent the last three years getting into spats with TV comedians.  She's not impressive.  She is only famous because McCain chose her to be his running mate.

180 spent the last three years getting into spats with TV comedians

IOW, leadership, a fighter.

Not a good talking point.

181 IOW, leadership, a fighter.

Not a good talking point.

Posted by: cherry pi, terrorist hostage taking SOB at September 08, 2011 02:31 PM (OhYCU)

If that's leadership, let's vote Limbaugh and be done with it.  There are much better people at the game of punditry than Palin.

182 There sure are a lot of naysayers out today bashing my governor. Some that don't necessarily post here often.  Perry wasn't perfect, but everything he said is right on target.  He certainly is a better candidate than Mitt, who has been running for years and slick as a pig's turd.  I thought Perry looked tired.  He had bags under the bags under his eyes.

183

Purity vs. Pragmatism is basically what it comes down to.

Except that Perry isn't "pure" when it comes to his conservatism.  That notion is a myth that has metastasized beyond all control these past few weeks.

 

184 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

185 I am thinking that Perry's problems can largely be attributed to his rustiness in debating, and it being his first time preparing for the national scope of issues.  I can't see where on substance he took a position that was on the wrong side of where the primary electorate is, even when he fumbled to articulate what his position was.  Those are presentation and messaging problems that will come with practice, which he will get over the next 5 debates.  Last night he was like the slugger with raw power who whiffed a couple of times, but when he got one in his wheelhouse (like the death penalty question), he knocked it into the next county. 

Even as my head is telling me that his "Ponzi scheme" moment is politically the wrong position, my gut is telling me that the conviction with which he gave that answer might pay off for him.  Compare that with Mitt's weaselly tactics after the debate screaming about Perry wanting Grandma to have to eat cat food like any good Dem would do.  I really think the primary electorate is going to see this contrast and recoil from Mitt. 

Despite Mitt's slickness from the years of practice, he still can't sell his healthcare bill.  I've heard him explain it over and over, and still can't figure out how in anyway it is a conservative bill.  I think we just take for granted how bad he is on that issue at this point, but being wrong on substance is far more important to me than being right on the policy and having trouble articulating it in a debate.  If Perry is still stumbling badly in his answers by the end of the year, then it will be more concerning to me.

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