March 12, 2011
— rdbrewer Above The Post Update:
[DrewM.] Looks like a second reactor at Fukushima is in trouble.
AP: Japanese government spokesman says partial meltdown is likely under way at second reactor
(I removed something about the first reactor because I'm not sure I was right. There's enough bad/wrong/confusing information out already)
Original Post:
From Kyodo News, another reactor loses cooling functions:
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Sunday another reactor of its quake-hit Fukushima nuclear power plants had lost its cooling functions, while at least 15 people at a nearby hospital were found to have been exposed to radioactivity.The utility supplier notified the government early Sunday morning that the No. 3 reactor at the No. 1 Fukushima plant had lost the ability to cool the reactor core. The reactor is now in the process of releasing radioactive steam, according to top government spokesman Yukio Edano.
It was the sixth reactor overall at the Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 plants to undergo cooling failure since the massive earthquake and ensuing tsunami struck Japan on Friday.
And, for reference purposes, pictures of BWR plant innards. Reports are that Fukushima #1 lost secondary containment and that primary containment is still in place. I'm guessing the first picture more accurately depicts the structure of Fukushima #1 than the second, which shows a single large containment shell. Maybe our resident nuke experts can shed some light on this.
For an idea of the size, note the step stool in the foreground.
Update: A recent picture of Fukushima #1:
You can see it most closely resembles the structure shown in the first schematic above. Thanks to commenters "booger" and "Momma."
Update: Momma says she's all cried out and feels helpless, needs a laugh. I think we're all a little drained by the bad news in Japan. How about a little meltdown music?
I got this from the vault at the IAEA after seeing a reference to it in the computers at the NRC. Under the title "Meltdown Music" it said, "Play only in the event of feeling cried out and helpless after a large earthquake, a large tsunami, and during a meltdown scare." So I figured, hey, that kind of fits this situation.
Update: Drew sends this tweet from BNOnews:
TEPCO says radiation at the Japan nuke plant premises has surpassed legal limits - Kyodo
Keep your meltdown music handy. As Drew says, that doesn't sound good. Sounds almost deceptive, like understatement, in fact.
Update: Commenter "BUTCH" sends his analysis based upon an ANS "backgrounder":
I received the attached from the American Nuclear Society. They set up a special page on the ANS blog (http://ansnuclearcafe.org) to aggregate media reports and provide additional credible information.Don't believe what you hear on the news - most of the talking heads don't know what they are talking about. Remember how little the media gets correct when reporting on your field of expertise? Keep that in mind.
- The affected plant is a 40-year old boiling water reactor (BWR). This is a good simplified diagram of a generic BWR: http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/generic-bwr.pdf
- The reactor sits inside a steel primary containment structure (drywell) that looks like an inverted light bulb. The drywell vents via spargers to a torus (looks like a donut ... mmmm, doh-nutt ...) AKA wetwell.
- It appears that it experienced a way-beyond design basis event.
- The reactor is shut down, no power is being produced by fission. However, the highly radioactive fission products generate significant decay heat after shutdown. Wiki doesn't do a half bad job explaining it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decay_heat. Long story short, after a day, this is ~0.4% of core power. This translates to 6MW of power.
- All nuclear plants have two separate independent emergency diesel generators (EDGs) plus sufficient fuel to provide power for emergency cooling pumps. These EDGs started, but stopped after about an hour. The tsunami surge apparently contaminated the fuel. Hence the rush of diesel generators to the site.
Maybe BUTCH and some of our crew of nuke experts could critically analyze that and, well, tell us (me) what it means.
Posted by: rdbrewer at
06:28 PM
| Comments (398)
Post contains 695 words, total size 5 kb.
God help those people. Fervent prayers for all who are working to get this situation under control, as well as those who are going through this unimaginable horror.
Puts things in perspective.....
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at March 12, 2011 04:29 PM (py9B+)
My resident nuc tells me that so far, he's not seeing anything that makes him think it's reached the "run for your lives!" point.
My thoughts and best wishes for the people of Japan.
Posted by: Dianna at March 12, 2011 04:32 PM (mKMj1)
Posted by: oleg at March 12, 2011 04:33 PM (/IuX+)
Sorry. I'm all cried out, God's on speed dial, and I feel helpless.
I really just need a good laugh, or a good scream.
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 04:35 PM (penCf)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 04:36 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 12, 2011 04:39 PM (SvJSC)
Posted by: 19th hole at March 12, 2011 04:39 PM (9Q4xx)
Aside from taking every precaution to protect human life, how about the news not speculate what "might" happen and report on what is happening.
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 04:39 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: Nemo from Erewon at March 12, 2011 04:41 PM (CWqmt)
This game.
Posted by: logprof at March 12, 2011 08:37 PM (BP6Z1)
Funny thing. The kids and I played Frogger, etc. on our Atari today!
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 04:41 PM (penCf)
Posted by: The Toxic Avenger at March 12, 2011 04:42 PM (91gAE)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 04:43 PM (5inr1)
This is *exactly* the kind of stuff that causes him to show up.
Posted by: Original Mikey is now Uncle Mikey at March 12, 2011 04:43 PM (QyV2U)
This containment dome doesn't look like it's going to be doing much containing.
Posted by: booger at March 12, 2011 08:41 PM (9RFH1)
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 04:44 PM (penCf)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 04:44 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 12, 2011 04:45 PM (YX6i/)
One lesson to be drawn: perhaps nuclear power does not belong in earthquake zones. It is just a shame that so many on the left who profess true environmental concern remain so silent about IranÂ’s construction of nuclear power stations. Iran, after all, is one giant earthquake zone.
/Funny that.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 12, 2011 04:46 PM (wz1qx)
Well that is good news that primary containment is intact. That is more typically called the drywell here in the US.
That gives them anothe option of completely flooding the drywell.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 12, 2011 04:46 PM (pyWwh)
This game.
Posted by: logprof at March 12, 2011 08:37 PM (BP6Z1)
I own that cart and was thinking about it today. I really need to procure an RF switchbox and some new joysticks so I can play my faux wood-paneled 2600 on my plasma. Screw the PS3.
Posted by: Herr Blücher at March 12, 2011 04:47 PM (D5FQB)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 04:47 PM (5inr1)
The commentary on the explosion seems to go like this: There are some zinc alloys involved, and excessively hot (but not molten) zinc can strip oxygen straight out of the steam (H2O). This leads to hydrogen production. "Venting the steam to reduce pressure" leads to letting this hydrogen out of the core, and out of the inner containment. A buildup of the hydrogen and a spark then leads to the explosion -outside- the actual reactor, and outside of the main containment.
Posted by: Al at March 12, 2011 04:48 PM (MzQOZ)
I wish I knew why. the commentators on some of these sites seem like they have triple PHD's in Physics.
Posted by: curious at March 12, 2011 04:48 PM (k1rwm)
Posted by: Kevin at March 12, 2011 04:49 PM (ENL+r)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 04:49 PM (azrS2)
A socialist, racist and a marxist walk into a bar.
Bartender says, "Barack! Wine spritzer as usual?"
Posted by: USS Diversity at March 12, 2011 04:55 PM (gJNMj)
Waaaay O/T, but I can't help myself. I'm beside myself with joy. UW just beat U of AZ to win the Pac-10 Tournament. Wow, and what a game. Dawgs down most of the game come back and go into overtime. Despite missing a lot of foul shots, the Huskies pulled it off with a winning basket made at the buzzer. Between doing the Snoopy Dance and the emotional roller coaster I just got off, I'm just exhausted with giddiness.
Back on topic, prayers for everyone in Japan. My Uncle and Aunt called my mom and other aunt today, and they said they are ok, but are running out of water.
Posted by: runningrn at March 12, 2011 04:56 PM (ihSHD)
Posted by: oleg at March 12, 2011 08:33 PM (/IuX+)
The prevailing jet stream will bring the atomic cloud of death right our doorstep in Seattle. We have Potassium Iodide tabs though. That should help.
Posted by: Barbarian at March 12, 2011 04:56 PM (EL+OC)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 04:56 PM (azrS2)
A socialist, racist and a marxist walk into a bar.
Bartender says, "Barack! Wine spritzer as usual?"
Oooh, that's a good one.
Posted by: runningrn at March 12, 2011 04:56 PM (ihSHD)
Posted by: Jack is Back! at March 12, 2011 04:58 PM (KFNwJ)
Posted by: Jeff in PA at March 12, 2011 04:58 PM (45WVs)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 04:59 PM (qIHlG)
Hey Papa E! How's the bambina?
Did you watch the basketball game at all? It was such a nailbiter, agita inducer, but the end was oh so sweet! (And to win with Condi Rice and Lute Olsen in the house--so sweet!)
Posted by: runningrn at March 12, 2011 04:59 PM (ihSHD)
Posted by: BUTCH at March 12, 2011 05:00 PM (uPUfN)
Posted by: Hawt Asian Babe at March 12, 2011 05:01 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: nickless at March 12, 2011 05:02 PM (MMC8r)
Sounds like a great game and winning the P10 is sweet. Automatic bid.
How's your household?
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 12, 2011 05:02 PM (YX6i/)
Posted by: melvin at March 12, 2011 05:02 PM (3OCZw)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:03 PM (azrS2)
BTW, if rd or any of the other cob-loggers email me, I will send you a backgrounder that the ANS issued. Maybe post it here.
Posted by: BUTCH at March 12, 2011 05:04 PM (uPUfN)
I grew up about 30 miles from TMI; I remember having to come inside from gym, and we kind of laughed it off, but the hydrogen bubble was an issue. Buddy of mine swears there's a higher cancer rate in Central PA.
Posted by: USS Diversity at March 12, 2011 05:04 PM (gJNMj)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 05:04 PM (kUaEF)
A bit smaller, of course.
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 09:03 PM (azrS2)
I'll see if Doc Brown can score us some fuel.
Posted by: Marty McFly at March 12, 2011 05:05 PM (YX6i/)
Yeah, but for the old timers this is just a refresher from 3MI and Chernobyl
Posted by: melvin at March 12, 2011 05:05 PM (3OCZw)
We're neck-deep in two wars, Middle East turmoil and now a military humanitarian effort in Japan. Oh, and of course, a President who couldn't give a flying fuck about an ally.
Posted by: Johnny at March 12, 2011 05:05 PM (mhmc7)
Posted by: Scientist-in-Chief Obama at March 12, 2011 05:05 PM (2EEmX)
Three horrific tragedies all at once, it's almost incomprehensible. I can't imagine what it must be like for the people working at the nuclear facilities right now, and for their families. Prayers all around for Japan.
Posted by: Mayday at March 12, 2011 05:06 PM (TRgli)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 05:06 PM (kUaEF)
How's your household?
We are fine, thanks!
I just love how you are really digging the whole fatherhood thing--so awesome! Of course your baby is truly special.
I was tired until I started watching that game. The adrenaline rush, cramping in my stomach, nail biting pretty much woke me up!
I love that Isaiah Thomas got the winning shot at the end. So sweet. He wanted to win it so badly!
Posted by: runningrn at March 12, 2011 05:06 PM (ihSHD)
Greatest feeling in the world....a sweet smelling sleeping baby in your arms...and protected from the evil of the outside world.
God bless you and your family.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at March 12, 2011 05:06 PM (UOM48)
Sorry. I'm all cried out, God's on speed dial, and I feel helpless.
I really just need a good laugh, or a good scream.
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 08:35 PM
Momma, I put some meltdown music in the last update.
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 05:06 PM (5inr1)
Posted by: melvin at March 12, 2011 05:07 PM (3OCZw)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team
There are people being raped and cannibalized in the reactor?
Posted by: Z Ryan, Lord of the Dance at March 12, 2011 05:08 PM (tsC/8)
He can swear all he likes but until I see some solid epidemiological data, I'm not going to run screaming into the hills or blame TMI for my deformed brain matter and small genitalia,
. Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 12, 2011 05:08 PM (wz1qx)
Has CNN consulted the very credible and distinguished Nuclear Engineer Jimmy Carter, who at one time warmed the seat in the Oval Office awaiting The Gipper's arrival?
Posted by: Fish the Impaler at March 12, 2011 05:09 PM (ZHsNw)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:09 PM (azrS2)
That may just be divine retribution for Jack Murtha.
Traitor Jack was western PA. Pretty much a different state.
Posted by: USS Diversity at March 12, 2011 05:10 PM (gJNMj)
Y'know, if China ever wanted to make a move on Taiwan... now would be the time.
We're neck-deep in two wars, Middle East turmoil and now a military humanitarian effort in Japan. Oh, and of course, a President who couldn't give a flying fuck about an ally.
Ally? (Puts nose in air) Allies are sooo last administration. Britain, France, Germany, and Japan, they're all squares man. I'm all about creating new relationships with the cool kids in school--Cuba, Venezuela, China, Russia, just to name a few. Of course, I do appreciate the rich history we share with some of our long time Muslim friends.
Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama, Mmmm, Mmmmm, Mmmmmmmmm! at March 12, 2011 05:10 PM (ihSHD)
Posted by: BUTCH at March 12, 2011 09:04 PM
I don't know what that is, but it sounds good. rdbrewer4 at gmail.
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 05:10 PM (5inr1)
Couple this with the story from Israel hat has me dangerously close to snapping, and this is shaping up to be a really early night.
Posted by: sifty at March 12, 2011 05:10 PM (aUIVP)
Well, if Iran had an earthquake and their reactors were destroyed, the effects would spread to afghanistan/pakistan and possible China.
So mustly practioners of the religion of peace and an enemy that is pretending to be friendly will be affected.
I'm not exaclty seeing a downside here.
Posted by: blindside at March 12, 2011 05:11 PM (X1Y8q)
How does reactor 3 now lose its cooling function? Unless the aftershocks caused further damage ...
Anyway ... it sure seems after this much time, odds of a full meltdown are getting low, and odds of containment except for steam are very high.
But that's mostly from reading the good folks here.
a new update on CNN now from a Japan guy
Posted by: bill at March 12, 2011 05:11 PM (D6qOQ)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 05:12 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: SJR2 at March 12, 2011 05:12 PM (oCbCP)
Has CNN consulted the very credible and distinguished Nuclear Engineer Jimmy Carter, who at one time warmed the seat in the Oval Office awaiting The Gipper's arrival?
Posted by: Fish the Impaler at March 12, 2011 09:09 PM (ZHsNw)
Well I've been complaining that so far all the nuclear 'experts' being cited in the news reports all seem to come from groups that are anti-nuclear. It's interesting that you don't see the same breathless quotes from experts who don't have an agenda.
Posted by: Mætenloch at March 12, 2011 05:12 PM (ACrAn)
Posted by: cowboyup at March 12, 2011 05:12 PM (RFedN)
@5 It has been reported (at least on Fox) that the orders to evacuate out to 12 miles were issued earlier today.
No more running for the hills will be necessary if those orders have already been carried out.
These units are relatively small compared to alot of other power reactors and evacuation out to 12 miles would be very conservative *IF* the transportation network was fully intact.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 12, 2011 05:12 PM (pyWwh)
No! It is the only console that can play the greatest game ever created!
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 12, 2011 08:49 PM (wz1qx)
Heh. I've actually got a PS3 (and PS2). Maybe I'll give the "GoW Collection" a spin once I'm done slogging through GTAIV (my least favorite of the series as it turns out). I keep eyeballing it during the occasions I visit Best Buy.
Posted by: Herr Blücher at March 12, 2011 05:13 PM (D5FQB)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at March 12, 2011 05:13 PM (EiH7n)
I'm not exaclty seeing a downside here.
The only downside is the plant will be in operation just long enough for the Iranians to make a few small nukes.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 12, 2011 05:13 PM (wz1qx)
Posted by: USS Diversity at March 12, 2011 05:14 PM (gJNMj)
I'm not exaclty seeing a downside here.
Posted by: blindside at March 12, 2011 09:11 PM (X1Y8q)
Here's the downside: It would mean Iran would have nuclear technology.
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 12, 2011 05:14 PM (YX6i/)
Posted by: deadrody at March 12, 2011 05:15 PM (GJhuj)
So no more of this "first drawing seems to resemble structure of Fukushima #1" business. I'm just going to go with it from now on. Boldness and brains. That's just the way I roll.
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 05:15 PM (5inr1)
Posted by: sifty at March 12, 2011 05:15 PM (aUIVP)
I love that Isaiah Thomas got the winning shot at the end. So sweet. He wanted to win it so badly!
Posted by: runningrn at March 12, 2011 09:06 PM (ihSHD)
{Blink, Blink}
Did something happen with the quake that cracked open a space time warp ala The Final Countdown.?
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 12, 2011 05:15 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama, Mmmm, Mmmmm, Mmmmmmmmm! at March 12, 2011 05:15 PM (ihSHD)
Kratos, you worry too much. We have Janet Napolitano's DHS protecting our borders. Besides, Obama gave SPEECHES and apologized. All the wounds are healed.
Want a Coke?
Posted by: blindside at March 12, 2011 05:15 PM (X1Y8q)
Posted by: Johnny Carson at March 12, 2011 05:16 PM (2fc1M)
Posted by: deadrody at March 12, 2011 05:16 PM (GJhuj)
If there is, it isn't because of 3MI. Lots of soil samples, and animal samples were taken and radiation levels were found not to be higher.
Posted by: Holger at March 12, 2011 05:16 PM (YxGud)
Japan has gotten the shit kicked out of it by Earth, Water, and now Air. Posted by: sifty
What's next: heart?
Posted by: Z Ryan, Lord of the Dance at March 12, 2011 05:17 PM (tsC/8)
Posted by: Caliph-Elect Obama at March 12, 2011 05:17 PM (2EEmX)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:18 PM (azrS2)
Moron Alert~
It has been reported that a side effect of radiation exposure for males is an unexplained lengthening of the penis.
Posted by: Fish the Impaler at March 12, 2011 05:19 PM (ZHsNw)
Here's the downside: It would mean Iran would have nuclear technology.
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 12, 2011 09:14 PM (YX6i/)
That cat got out of the bag a long time ago, I believe.
Posted by: blindside at March 12, 2011 05:19 PM (X1Y8q)
Most likely when they vented containment, the vent piping / ducting ruptured and a decent amount of hydrogen was released into the building. It would then collect at the highest elevation until it ignited.
Nonsense. Hydrogen is perfectly safe.
Posted by: Deutsche Zeppelin-Reederei (DZR) at March 12, 2011 05:19 PM (PyVAg)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at March 12, 2011 05:19 PM (EiH7n)
Posted by: sifty at March 12, 2011 05:19 PM (aUIVP)
Posted by: Doc at March 12, 2011 05:19 PM (jGXQI)
Did something happen with the quake that cracked open a space time warp ala The Final Countdown.?
UW point guard. His dad lost a bet in a Lakers/Pistons game, so he got named after NBAer Isaiah Thomas. His mom decided it would be ok because Isaiah was a Biblical name. He is truly fun to watch.
Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama, Mmmm, Mmmmm, Mmmmmmmmm! at March 12, 2011 05:20 PM (ihSHD)
Posted by: bill at March 12, 2011 05:20 PM (D6qOQ)
That cat got out of the bag a long time ago, I believe.
Posted by: blindside at March 12, 2011 09:19 PM (X1Y8q)
No less of a downside.
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 12, 2011 05:22 PM (YX6i/)
Nuclear power is not going to cause the end of the world, no matter how out of line Jane Fonda and her idiot minions are. As my dad's old bumper sticker said, "Jane Fonda has killed more people than nuclear power."
Posted by: tcn at March 12, 2011 05:23 PM (QuGK2)
Posted by: bill at March 12, 2011 09:20 PM (D6qOQ)
Bill Nye is an ass, and they should have gone with Louis Nye the dead comedian.
Posted by: Fish the Impaler at March 12, 2011 05:23 PM (ZHsNw)
Please no fucking diagrams.
Posted by: ontherocks at March 12, 2011 05:24 PM (HBqDo)
Stacy McCain is noting that all the Media Mavens are now flocking to Japan to boost ratings. I can safely predict that unlike Cairo, none of them will be beaten, raped or sexual assaulted in Japan.
Except for Anderson Cooper who will be willingly violated by several large octopi.
http://tinyurl.com/dgbpnk
Posted by: Joe at March 12, 2011 05:24 PM (AxdeT)
I'm not a nuke engineer by any stretch of the imagination and I respect the morons here but what the fuck is that thing?
Looks like a giant, rusted out water heater.
Please tell me that's not rust.
Posted by: ErikW at March 12, 2011 05:25 PM (ZlsYD)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 05:25 PM (qIHlG)
Ahh, ok.
Posted by: booger at March 12, 2011 05:25 PM (9RFH1)
Posted by: CDR M at March 12, 2011 09:01 PM (5I8G0)
Yes, I bet we can hit Home Depot and build one at home.
A bit smaller, of course.
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 09:03 PM (azrS2)
Just don't hack the national defense center's supercomputer to figure out a card trick. Otherwise you might get a call from Homeland Security when you attempt to aquire Uranium-235
Posted by: Dr. Sheldon Cooper, PHD at March 12, 2011 05:26 PM (oVQFe)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 05:27 PM (5inr1)
Meggy McCain is en route to Japan to lend her expertise in weight control and the effects of radiation exposure on Jimmy Choo shoes.
Posted by: Fish the Impaler at March 12, 2011 05:28 PM (ZHsNw)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:29 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: clubber lang at March 12, 2011 05:30 PM (QcFbt)
OK, but this part deserves mention too:
A similar rise in radiation levels occurred after the company released radioactive steam from another reactor to let go of pressure. Then again the company was obliged to inform the government of an "emergency situation".
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 12, 2011 05:31 PM (FzzMi)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at March 12, 2011 05:31 PM (EiH7n)
Posted by: tcn at March 12, 2011 09:29 PM (QuGK2)
Hi yourself! How's it hangin?? God, I'm drunk.
Posted by: jewells45 at March 12, 2011 05:31 PM (Z71Vg)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:31 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: bill at March 12, 2011 05:32 PM (D6qOQ)
Hi yourself! How's it hangin?? God, I'm drunk.
Posted by: jewells45 at March 12, 2011 09:31 PM (Z71Vg)
Yea, but are you easy?
Posted by: Pimply Teenage Punk at March 12, 2011 05:32 PM (ZHsNw)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 12, 2011 05:32 PM (VW9Wz)
Could use some Pren-O-Prep, but other than that, it's in okay condition.
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 12, 2011 05:33 PM (YX6i/)
Hi yourself! How's it hangin?? God, I'm drunk.
Posted by: jewells45 at March 12, 2011 09:31 PM (Z71Vg)
Don't know, I'll check the hubby.
Posted by: tcn at March 12, 2011 05:33 PM (QuGK2)
'Breaching containment' is a lot more fun, too.
Posted by: nickless at March 12, 2011 05:33 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:33 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: USS Diversity at March 12, 2011 05:35 PM (gJNMj)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 05:35 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 09:27 PM (5inr1)
Was included in the Japanese Cabinet Minister's comments. They're rerunning now
http://tinyurl.com/4hvufxb
I think this is the one where he gives actual radiation readings
Posted by: jcjimi at March 12, 2011 05:35 PM (icpyU)
Rust is not necessarily a problem.
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 09:29 PM (azrS2)
My truck likes to rust and doesn't like to be painted either but the sumbitch doesn't have a nuclear fucking reaction going on under the hood!
Posted by: ErikW at March 12, 2011 05:35 PM (ZlsYD)
What got you there?
A fucked up week.
Yea, but are you easy?
Yep.
I fell off the wagon. I'm sorry, I know I let people down. But right now, I don't give a shit. Right now, it's all about ME.
Posted by: jewells45 at March 12, 2011 05:36 PM (Z71Vg)
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at March 12, 2011 05:36 PM (if2zg)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:38 PM (azrS2)
Thank you rdbrewer! I swear, it put a smile right on my face. I am actually crying happy tears for the first time in 2 days!
Wait a minute. Just saw the last post - your last post #127 - your new update blows
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 05:38 PM (penCf)
I don't get how this is such a huge international deal, but they can't even fly in some good generators and fuel? There are rescue efforts, but this seems a pretty high priority ...
Posted by: bill at March 12, 2011 05:39 PM (D6qOQ)
Hot sea water corrodes like a bitch.
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 09:38 PM (azrS2)
My understanding is that it's pretty much the end of this reactor since it would have to be majorly refurbished afterwards and it was scheduled to be closed in a few years anyway.
Posted by: Mætenloch at March 12, 2011 05:39 PM (ACrAn)
Posted by: ambidextrous stroker at March 12, 2011 05:40 PM (YsSn7)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:41 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: 2549 at March 12, 2011 05:42 PM (kvxPn)
Proof once again that a mouth harp can make anything funny.
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 05:42 PM (5inr1)
So much for my wishful thinking about the explosion being in the turbine building. This is the top of the reactor building and all the sheet metal siding and the roof were blow off in the explosion. How hydrogen got from inside the reactor into the upper operating deck on top is a mystery to be explained. We don't know what kind of damage to the plant was a direct result of the shaking - broken pipes, busted instruments, etc - and how the station blackout scenario played out.
The MSM doesn't want the truth; it can't handle the truth. There's little drama in the truth.
BTW, the reactor vessel is lined with stainless steel cladding and many of the pipes are stainless steel.
Also, one can't directly corrollate an earthquake magnitude into shaking intensity and damage. Of course, higher magnitude means more energy released but how far from the epicenter, soil/rock/structure interfaces, a lot of things are factors. Plus the frequency of vibrations matters too - it is very complicated.
Posted by: Whitehall at March 12, 2011 05:43 PM (BuDga)
I was cried out by the time I was 2. Never cried again.
Posted by: Z Ryan, Lord of the Dance at March 12, 2011 05:43 PM (tsC/8)
Moron Alert~
It has been reported that a side effect of radiation exposure for males is an unexplained lengthening of the penis.
No can do. The Moronettes® went into exhaustive detail about this very subject not long ago. Length ain't all that.
Posted by: AoSHQ Moronette Girth Brigade at March 12, 2011 05:44 PM (urYpw)
Happy Birthday Top Gun. As if things in the world weren't bad enough, one of your favorite movies is 25 years old. Geezers. [krak]
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 05:44 PM (penCf)
Posted by: 2549 at March 12, 2011 05:45 PM (kvxPn)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:45 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at March 12, 2011 05:46 PM (EiH7n)
Posted by: BUTCH at March 12, 2011 05:46 PM (uPUfN)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 12, 2011 05:48 PM (VW9Wz)
Posted by: curious at March 12, 2011 05:48 PM (k1rwm)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 05:48 PM (Fw2Gg)
Iron alloys can be made that rust slowly. They get a thin film of rust fairly fast and then that's about it.
That sucker just paints itself brown. It is not weakened.
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 09:41 PM (azrS2)
Ah, I see. Bueno, eman.
Posted by: ErikW at March 12, 2011 05:49 PM (ZlsYD)
Posted by: humphreyrobot at March 12, 2011 05:49 PM (EiH7n)
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 12, 2011 09:47 PM (wz1qx)
Set it on fire and put it on the doorstep of a WI public employees union member.
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 12, 2011 05:49 PM (YX6i/)
Posted by: 2549 at March 12, 2011 05:50 PM (kvxPn)
Posted by: melvin at March 12, 2011 05:50 PM (3OCZw)
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 12, 2011 05:51 PM (FzzMi)
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 12, 2011 09:47 PM (wz1qx)
Oooohhhh, I know! Make an statue in honor of our Present and First Bitch!
I renounce myself . . .
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 05:52 PM (penCf)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 05:53 PM (azrS2)
Oooohhhh, I know! Make an statue in honor of our Present and First Bitch!
I renounce myself . . .
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 09:52 PM (penCf)
Probably good for an NEA grant
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 12, 2011 05:53 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 05:54 PM (Fw2Gg)
Now if you will excuse, I will take my seat on the short bus.
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 05:57 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 05:57 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 12, 2011 09:47 PM (wz1qx)
Raise the wheels on the mower, and do the lawn in galoshes.
Posted by: ontherocks at March 12, 2011 05:57 PM (HBqDo)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 05:59 PM (Fw2Gg)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 12, 2011 05:59 PM (VW9Wz)
I am confused about this. I know you want to do everything you can do to minimize or eliminate any release of nuke material because it's in a populated area. I get that.
What I don't get is everyone worried about the health of the planet. In my lifetime we and others have blown up hundreds if not thousands of nukes above ground. Several of them in the southwest deserts where the prevailing winds carried the fallout over the most populated areas in the US.
My question is other than the immediate populated area why is this said to be more dangerous for the planet than exploding nukes around the world?
Posted by: robtr at March 12, 2011 06:01 PM (MtwBb)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 06:01 PM (Fw2Gg)
Just the title is racist isn't it?
Welcome back, Jim Crow
...
Florida's Racist New Law
Prisoner reentry was turned into a political football in Florida on Wednesday when newly elected Governor Rick Scott, at the urging of State Attorney General Pam Bondi, swiftly changed the rules governing when felons' rights are restored in the state after they're released from prison. Moving with speed characteristic of tin-horn dictators in banana republics, Scott and the Florida Cabinet imposed a five-year wait period on restoring many rights to individuals convicted of non-violent crimes, and a seven-year wait for those convicted of violent crimes. Additionally, those in the latter category must have a hearing before a clemency board which will determine if their civil and voting rights are to be restored. "Felons seeking restoration of civil rights demonstrate they desire and deserve clemency only after they show they're willing to abide by the law," Scott said.
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 06:02 PM (penCf)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 06:02 PM (azrS2)
I don't envy those poor fucks one bit right now.
Posted by: 2549 at March 12, 2011 06:02 PM (kvxPn)
My sister was at Ft Carlisle when it happened, she was diagnosed with thyroid cancer within a year. They suspect TMI was the cause, there was some type of class action suit. I don't think the suit has ever been settled.
Posted by: TC at March 12, 2011 06:02 PM (BAtLQ)
@193 Any reports of radioactive isotopes in the coolant?
There has been no mention of them drawing coolant samples. Probably not worth the worker exposure to draw it until they can stabailize temp and pressure.
There will definitely be noble gases and volatiles (iodines) in the coolant. The amount of other fission products will depend on how badly and how many fuel rods have been comprimised.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 12, 2011 06:02 PM (pyWwh)
First they came for the Golden Grahams,
and I did not speak out --
Because I did not eat Golden Grahams.
Then they came for the Froot Loops, and I did not speak out --
Because I did not care for Froot Loops .
Then they came for the Cocoa Puffs, and I
did not speak out --
Because I preferred Cap'n Crunch
Then they came for Cap'n Crunch -- and there was no one left to speak for Cap'n Crunch.
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:02 PM (Vyrg6)
http://fwd4.me/xTe
Posted by: bill at March 12, 2011 06:03 PM (D6qOQ)
The Jewish Rican Geraldo is on Fox with his nuclear engineering expertise. That's very comforting and time for a little cumbia music.
Posted by: Fish the Impaler at March 12, 2011 06:03 PM (ZHsNw)
No in fact the nuke guy said that they had problems with keeping replacement generators going / cable or some problems. They continue to try to hook up replacement generator power. Said power now out in other reactors as well.
Posted by: melvin at March 12, 2011 06:04 PM (3OCZw)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 06:04 PM (Fw2Gg)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 06:06 PM (5inr1)
Posted by: joeindc44 at March 12, 2011 06:06 PM (Du09Y)
Yeah, I can see how my question appears to be monumentally stupid, largely because it is, but I was thinking about power sent via transmission lines to areas not destroyed. I can see how it would take time to repair/replace those lines, but the source is another kettle of fish.
Essentially, those poor bastards are going to be living in the 19th Century for quite a long time. God help them.
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:06 PM (Vyrg6)
Are you fucking kidding me ? You mean they could not have air lifted numerous large diesel generators directly onto the buildings.
Posted by: melvin at March 12, 2011 06:07 PM (3OCZw)
Fuckin' A.
Posted by: Hicks at March 12, 2011 06:07 PM (5inr1)
Posted by: joeindc44 at March 12, 2011 10:06 PM (Du09Y)
Obama sent a wind turbine and some solar panels, from china
Posted by: robtr at March 12, 2011 06:08 PM (MtwBb)
the sinner,
Patrick
Posted by: Patrick at March 12, 2011 06:08 PM (Mfc9p)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 12, 2011 06:08 PM (VW9Wz)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 06:09 PM (5inr1)
Let the guessing games begin again.
Posted by: DrewM. at March 12, 2011 06:09 PM (HicGG)
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:10 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: tmi3rd at March 12, 2011 06:11 PM (WRtsc)
Posted by: Ronster at March 12, 2011 06:11 PM (rzuJR)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 06:12 PM (azrS2)
Heh, the Prius is the #1-selling car in Japan, so you'd figure there would be.
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 12, 2011 06:13 PM (FzzMi)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 06:14 PM (5inr1)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 06:15 PM (Fw2Gg)
Posted by: joeindc44 at March 12, 2011 06:15 PM (Du09Y)
Posted by: Deanna at March 12, 2011 06:16 PM (7ECAD)
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 12, 2011 06:16 PM (FzzMi)
A typo in New Hampshire is not really the same as not knowing where the Revolutionary War started.
Posted by: Y-not at March 12, 2011 06:17 PM (pW2o8)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 12, 2011 06:17 PM (VW9Wz)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 06:17 PM (qIHlG)
We need Jane D'Oh to tell her about D'OhVille, the post-apocalyptic Moron Wonderland.
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 06:18 PM (McG46)
Posted by: joeindc44 at March 12, 2011 06:20 PM (Du09Y)
Will some please tell her she is at 14 minutes, 50 seconds in her turn?
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:20 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 12, 2011 06:21 PM (VW9Wz)
Posted by: In the industry at March 12, 2011 06:21 PM (6OYja)
Posted by: Whitehall at March 12, 2011 09:43 PM (BuDga)
You got that right. I remember the 1964 quake (I was in Anchorage), and while the jolts were pretty bad, it was mostly that it went on for, like, 5 minutes. We thought maybe it would never stop. Five minutes is a long time to watch the treetops out side touch the ground on either side of said tree. The rumble is pretty creepy, too.
And I grew up there, so earthquakes are mostly no big deal.
Posted by: tcn at March 12, 2011 06:21 PM (QuGK2)
Posted by: Y-not at March 12, 2011 10:17 PM (pW2o
If you don't know where the Revolutionary War started, blame a teacher.
Posted by: AmishDude at March 12, 2011 06:22 PM (BvBKY)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 12, 2011 06:23 PM (5inr1)
People at HotAir are defending her using the rationale that someone from Minnesota shouldn't be expected to know such minutiae.
Posted by: Y-not at March 12, 2011 06:23 PM (pW2o8)
Why is saltwater the end of the reactor? Salt does a number on stainless steel welds for one thing. One has to get salt-free (halogen-free to be precise) duct tape for goodness sake to use on some of the pipes and handle with gloves.
The steel reactor vessel is a special low alloy steel with great toughness. We've had cases were a leak dripped on the steel and the boric acid in the leak ate through 6 inches of the steel in a few years. And boric acid is used for eye wash!
I'll grudgingly admit that we can't pin this one on George Soros.
Posted by: Whitehall at March 12, 2011 06:25 PM (BuDga)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 06:25 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Y-not at March 12, 2011 10:23 PM (pW2o
Oh come on. She knows how many states there are. And her Granpa liberated the Jews from Vietnam.
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 06:26 PM (McG46)
Jesus Murphy, really? The MFM is going to beat up any Republican candidate as stupid, so it is probably best not to hand them the club.
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:27 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 10:24 PM
That's from the Kyodo live updates. Also this...
CNN Breaking News: "We are assuming that a meltdown has occurred" at a nuclear power reactor, Japan's chief Cabinet secretary says.
Posted by: Deanna at March 12, 2011 06:27 PM (7ECAD)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 06:27 PM (qIHlG)
I'm from Mass. and I give her a pass.
Remember the 1773 vs. 1776 thing that happened last year, Lefties?
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 06:28 PM (azrS2)
Um, FAIL. The gas turbine is connected to a reduction gear that drives the ship's propeller, not a generator. There are a couple of ship's service diesel generators to provide power for the ship underway. There is a shore power connection to provide electricity when the ship is in port. Yes, you could use the SSDGs to provide power to shore, but it's peanuts.
Posted by: BUTCH at March 12, 2011 06:29 PM (uPUfN)
Some are. Truthfully, others over there are blaming her staff, which is an equally ridiculous position imho.
It was a prepared speech in New Hampshire. She introduced the whole "shot heard 'round the world" thing. And she got it dead wrong.
People make mistakes when speaking off the cuff, but a prepared speech? From a "constitutional" conservative? Wow.
Yes, yes, yes, Biden and Obama are morons, too. That doesn't make this better.
Posted by: Y-not at March 12, 2011 06:32 PM (pW2o8)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 06:34 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Y-not at March 12, 2011 10:32 PM (pW2o
She has an LLM in tax law. They don't hand those out like lollipops. She might be unprepared, or bad at public speaking, or have a bad memory for dates, or a host of other things. Moron is not one of those things.
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 06:35 PM (McG46)
What kind of power are we talking about to run emergency pumping systems?
Is it really beyond some sort of mobile power unit that could be lifted in?
Posted by: DrewM. at March 12, 2011 06:35 PM (HicGG)
Not to criticize the bloggers, but maybe we could get these updates numbered or something. It gets kind of hard to follow when some updates are at the end of the post and some at the beginning.
Posted by: Methos at March 12, 2011 06:35 PM (uqJo6)
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:36 PM (Vyrg6)
She has an LLM in tax law. They don't hand those out like lollipops.
Yes. They do. At least from my point of view
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 06:37 PM (BvBKY)
Don't worry. The Palinstown people at TepidAir will finish her.
Bachmann did do one hysterical thing though- really, really called Matthews out on election night for that thrill up his leg when he kept trying to say she was in a trance.Posted by: CAC at March 12, 2011 06:37 PM (lV4Fs)
How do you feel about professional architects? We do, like, physics and shit.
Posted by: tcn at March 12, 2011 06:38 PM (QuGK2)
If the reactor building (secondary containment) asploded, that was from H2 released from the zircaloy cladding in the core. Not sure how it got outside the drywell or torus. If the turbine building blew, I would have guessed H2 leakage from the generator after the power for the oil seal system ran out.
Again, keep the 48-hour rule in mind. Everybody outside that plant is pretty much guessing right now.
Posted by: butch at March 12, 2011 06:38 PM (uPUfN)
Posted by: Nemo from Erewon at March 12, 2011 06:38 PM (CWqmt)
Posted by: dfskjh at March 12, 2011 06:39 PM (xW/nO)
Posted by: tcn at March 12, 2011 10:38 PM (QuGK2)
When 1/3 of the House, 1/2 of the Senate, all of the judiciary and the top people in the executive are architects, I'll start worrying about them.
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 06:40 PM (BvBKY)
That's what happens when you get entertainment executives running a news division broadcasting to a public with an attention span of 14 seconds.
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:41 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 06:42 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 06:42 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 12, 2011 06:44 PM (qIHlG)
Oh yeah Palin is so stupid OMG 1773 WTF.
Posted by: libtard at March 12, 2011 06:44 PM (hD0CU)
I said it above. 1/3 of the House and 1/2 of the Senate are lawyers.
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 06:44 PM (BvBKY)
,/i>
Y-not, I grant your point. That said, I'm getting tired of the whole blogosphere, Left and Right, trying to score points based on stupid, inconsequential errors and even typos. Bachman's knowledge of Revolutionary history appears a bit shaky, but damn it all, Obama could be an expert on the Revolutionary War and I would STILL hate him and his socialist policies.
What matters far more to me is if Bachman is correct on the issues of the present. Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 06:46 PM (kUaEF)
www -dot- nucleartourist -dot- com / systems / diesel1.htm
www -dot- nucleartourist -dot- com / systems / diesel.htm
Posted by: butch at March 12, 2011 06:47 PM (uPUfN)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 06:47 PM (Fw2Gg)
She has an LLM in tax law. They don't hand those out like lollipops.
Yes. They do. At least from my point of view
Posted by: AmishDudeAt the very least, you need excellent writing skills and reading comprehension skills, and to do it in tax law, iron discipline. I'm not saying all lawyers are geniuses, I'm saying you can't be a moron and get an LLM in tax law.
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 06:49 PM (McG46)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 06:49 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: Moron with a LLM in Tax Law at March 12, 2011 06:51 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: USS Diversity at March 12, 2011 09:04 PM (gJNMj)
I went to Elizabethtown College, a stone's throw from TMI. I had tonsular cancer. My wife died of breast cancer. A friend of ours got tongue cancer. And that's just those I know of. So the government can say there was no radiation released. but it's bullshit
Posted by: Ombudsman at March 12, 2011 06:51 PM (c1oyg)
Posted by: blaster at March 12, 2011 10:50 PM (Fw2Gg)
And this too, for crying out loud. And she fights. For our side. And she's not afraid of what the media will say about her. And she'll vote the right way.
I hated history in k-12 anyway.
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 06:53 PM (McG46)
That used to be a good thing about our elections, it weeded out the weaker ones. Now, it gets them elected.
Posted by: momma at March 12, 2011 06:53 PM (penCf)
I went to Elizabethtown College, a stone's throw from TMI. I had tonsular cancer. My wife died of breast cancer. A friend of ours got tongue cancer. And that's just those I know of. So the government can say there was no radiation released. but it's bullshit
Posted by: Ombudsman at March 12, 2011 10:51 PM (c1oyg)
This is, for instance, what a lawyer would call "statistical evidence".
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 06:53 PM (BvBKY)
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 12, 2011 06:53 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: In the industry at March 12, 2011 06:54 PM (6OYja)
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 06:55 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: Moron with a LLM in Tax Law at March 12, 2011 10:51 PM (kUaEF)
Um. Now I know you're joking. It wasn't lawyers that wrote the tax code, that's too important to leave to lawyers. It was politicians and various "interests."
I'd be willing to be that the consensus amongst tax lawyers is "simpler is better."
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 06:56 PM (McG46)
And next time you call someone a moron, remember that you only use "an" when it's followed by a word beginning with a vowel!
Posted by: Moron with a LLM in Tax Law at March 12, 2011 10:51 PM (kUaEF)
Somehow, I don't believe that it was an LLM. More likely it was a contractor hired by an EEOC GS-13.
Posted by: Hrothgar at March 12, 2011 06:56 PM (DCpHZ)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 06:58 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: Moron with a LLM in Tax Law at March 12, 2011 10:51 PM (kUaEF)
What about an 'H'? 
Posted by: CanaDave at March 12, 2011 06:59 PM (ymGjm)
It wasn't lawyers that wrote the tax code, that's too important to leave to lawyers. It was politicians and various "interests."
Sigh. 1/3 of the House are lawyers, 1/2 of the Senate are lawyers.
Who do you think all of those interests hire as their lobbyists?
Now if you argue that they aren't tax lawyers, you might have a point, but I don't see a big gulf there.
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 07:00 PM (BvBKY)
This is, for instance, what a lawyer would call "statistical evidence".
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of
people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 10:53 PM (BvBKY)
Heh. Would you like me to give some propers to mathematicians? Like the friend of Einstein who had to help Einstein with the math in general relativity?
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 07:00 PM (McG46)
Posted by: Barbarian at March 12, 2011 07:00 PM (EL+OC)
Posted by: Jesus at March 12, 2011 07:01 PM (zVOB7)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 07:02 PM (azrS2)
American language. I do not see why our cousins should
continue to say "an" hospital, "an" historical fact,
"an" horse."
Mark Twain, tongue firmly in cheek, 1899.
Posted by: GT at March 12, 2011 07:03 PM (Vyrg6)
Posted by: 2549 at March 12, 2011 07:03 PM (kvxPn)
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 12, 2011 10:53 PM
I can't tell from the reports. But it looks like number 3 is turning into a bigger problem if the water level is 3 meters below the top of the fuel rod as reported..
Posted by: Deanna at March 12, 2011 07:03 PM (7ECAD)
Sigh. 1/3 of the House are lawyers, 1/2 of the Senate are lawyers.
Who do you think all of those interests hire as their lobbyists?
Now if you argue that they aren't tax lawyers, you might have a point, but I don't see a big gulf there.
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of
people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 11:00 PM (BvBKY)
Conceded. Lawyers put the pen to paper. Various other interests controlled what they wrote. But if your point is that the lawyers look after their own, always and above all else, I'm not going to argue.
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 07:04 PM (McG46)
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 07:05 PM (McG46)
Heh. Would you like me to give some propers to mathematicians? Like the friend of Einstein who had to help Einstein with the math in general relativity?
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 11:00 PM (McG46)
I'll take it.
Posted by: AmishDude, professional mathematician who is sick to death of people thinking lawyers are smart at March 12, 2011 07:07 PM (BvBKY)
give me an 'H'
give me an 'R'
give me an 'F'
give me an 'M'
give me an 'N'
give me an 'S'
give me an 'X'
....what's it spell?
...beats the piss out of me.
Posted by: CanaDave at March 12, 2011 07:07 PM (ymGjm)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 07:09 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 07:09 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 11:05 PM (McG46)
Or an accountant.
Posted by: AmishDude at March 12, 2011 07:09 PM (BvBKY)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 07:11 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 07:13 PM (kUaEF)
I still think Pepto-bismol is worth a shot.
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 11:11 PM (kUaEF)
You are ate the fuck up, dude.
Posted by: ErikW at March 12, 2011 07:13 PM (ZlsYD)
I think my most surreal moment of this whole nightmare was watching Fox News this morning and they interviewed Bill Nye, the Science Guy, about the nuclear plant issues. For reals. I couldn't quite figure out which audience they were going for, but I'm sure the young children whose parents made them sit in front of a TV to be babysat while Fox News unfolded new horrible live pictures were thrilled.
Also, way O/T - The UW/Arizona college Bball game was indeed awesome, runningrn!! Isaiah Thomas (yes, that's his name; yes, he's named after the other one and, unfortunately, he's proud of that fact) had ice-water in his veins and killed with the 3-pointers in incredibly crucial situations.
Posted by: dwagyak at March 12, 2011 07:14 PM (FSdwg)
More than one professional writer advises to do what sounds most natural. Which is what I usually do, stupidhead. (See?)
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 07:14 PM (McG46)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 07:15 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 07:16 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: The Knights That Say Nye at March 12, 2011 07:18 PM (kUaEF)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 07:21 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 11:15 PM (kUaEF)
And I say it as a friend!
Posted by: ErikW at March 12, 2011 07:32 PM (ZlsYD)
Posted by: Berserker at March 12, 2011 07:41 PM (gWHrG)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 12, 2011 07:43 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: andycanuck at March 12, 2011 07:43 PM (7H/n0)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 12, 2011 07:53 PM (kUaEF)
I hate to be overly critical about small things at a time like this rd, but offhand I can think of about 387 songs I'd rather hear as "meltdown music" than whatever that goofball bubble gum melody was you linked to.
>"Of course, if Ace tried peeing on the reactors he'd probably set them aflame".
In the event that such a hypothetical event were ever to occur, the appropriate music to listen to at that point would be Vera Lynn singing "We'll Meet Again" from the end of Dr. Strangelove.
Posted by: Commissioner Gordon at March 12, 2011 08:01 PM (L00d6)
Posted by: Seriously at March 12, 2011 08:03 PM (VzVQP)
http://tinyurl.com/4njbddp
Posted by: crosspatch at March 12, 2011 08:15 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: NortonPete at March 12, 2011 08:15 PM (fVuwW)
Posted by: yakima canutt, in below the sexy shoes at March 12, 2011 09:07 PM (tXbf1)
Venting steam to relieve press so yeah they'll have a release. They say it exceeded "legal limits" at the site boundary. That is virtually meaningless. What legal limits? How about tell us what the readings at the site boundary are?
The normal legal limit for exposure to the public is 1 mSv (100 mrem) is that the limit exceeded or is there some kind of accident limit (the U.S. has a design limit of 300 Rem to the thyroid for a 2 hour passage of the cloud.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 09:38 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: rickl at March 12, 2011 09:48 PM (hZFhS)
Nevertheless the amount of radiation detected at the site boundary reached 500 microSieverts per hour - exceeding a regulatory limit
500 microSv = .5mSv or 50 mRem/hr while venting. 50mRem is not that high but if it has I-131 in it people should be taking that KI stuff to saturate their thyroids with good Iodine.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 09:59 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: andycanuck at March 12, 2011 11:43 PM (7H/n0)
You mean 'nucular' or 'nuclear'? I thought we settled that.
Posted by: FUBAR at March 12, 2011 10:00 PM (McG46)
Posted by: Beverly at March 12, 2011 10:00 PM (sn3wc)
Posted by: Nemo from Erewon at March 12, 2011 10:09 PM (CWqmt)
For acute (that is, received in a relatively short time, up to about one hour) full body equivalent dose, 1 Sv causes nausea, 2-5 Sv causes epilation or hair loss, hemorrhage and will cause death in many cases. More than 3 Sv will lead to LD 50/30 or death in 50% of cases within 30 days, and over 6 Sv survival is unlikely.
I can say that 99 percent of the folks on this problem, would give their lives right now to solve it. It is probably a failure of imagination in disaster planning. Let's run the gensets for 15 minutes, once a month, OK? OK!
When they pump seawater into the reactor vessel, they have concluded TOTAL WRITEOFF, and are in the liability mitigation phase.
When they start pumping seawater in continuously and letting it run out into the ocean, regardless of three headed fish, then you will know the adults have come on the scene and said "get it stopped" no matter the cost, no matter the political damage, just "get it stopped".
Posted by: jon at March 12, 2011 10:11 PM (+t0vj)
The generators didn't fail. They and/or their fuel were swamped by the tsunami. It was the tsunami that took out the generators.
"When they pump seawater into the reactor vessel, they have concluded TOTAL WRITEOFF, and are in the liability mitigation phase."
Daiichi #1 was scheduled for decommissioning this month anyway. Yeah. they have already written it off, so there is no loss. They are just closing it a couple of weeks early.
Note that they aren't pumping boron into #3.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 12, 2011 10:23 PM (ZbLJZ)
180 mSv = 1.8 Rem and I assume that is per hour. In the U.S. that would be considered a locked high rad area and would require escort and special permission to enter (if it were general area)
I would be interested to know the curie content of what was released. For an off-site release the pure readings detected at the exit point are not as important as the total amount of curries released and the type of material released.
BTW, the old number that they used to use for a chest X-ray is 40 mRem total dose. I think it is lower now though.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 10:35 PM (M9Ie6)
How could you not say: Why are we gonna need gensets? Well, when there is an emergency. Well, what kind of emergency? Well, this being Japan, and in the RING OF EFFIN FIRE, probably an earthquake. Is that all? Well, it could be followed by a tsunami. OK then! Lets take the worst earthquake and tsunami that ever happened, anywhere (Chile) and multiply by 10! OK worker bees, get to it.
And I want two truck sized gensets (like the kind they run circuses from) staged in a flimsy, able to cut your way out, shelter, on the highest ground within ten miles. Big John Deer or Cat genset, or Kubota in a pinch. THEN i want you to run them on alternate months for 24 hours and log everything! Replace every five years.
I know a plant manager at a GE glass plant. The huge firebrick furnace is a beast. Every 5 or ten years HOTWORKS comes down and rebuilds on a schedule. If the furnace burns through before a rebuild, plant manager is gone.
using IR viewers, my friend found a hot spot in the firebrick. no prob, they just put a running hose on it. My friend said "and get TWO independent sources" of water as back up. Maintenance did not like it but did it. In the next month, city water utililty to the plant was accidentally interrupted TWICE. Something that had NEVER happened in the history of the plant.
This was over 20 years ago. At a glass plant. In a small KY town. It was not rocket science!! It was "how can this go wrong, then how can the fix go wrong?"
This will all come out in investigations and lawsuits over the next ten years.
Our nuclear plant BY THE SEA (look at the sat photos) was taken out by an out to sea earthquake followed by a tsunami. My God! Who would have thought?
Posted by: jon at March 12, 2011 10:52 PM (+t0vj)
They probably had a seawall around it for a design 100 year surge. Since this was a "thousand year" surge it exceeded the height of the wall.
From what I have read the fuel was contaminated with water which is why the EDGs shutdown. One other thing that could have happened is that the fuel tanks were underground with a vent and the height of the water was above the vent.
From reading their earthquake design limits (7.2) I gather that their regulations are not as stringent there as here as well.
I also suspect there will be a lot of barn door locking now just like after TMI. 90% of it will be political horse shit that does nothing but add cost.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 10:59 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Sock Puppet 5000 at March 12, 2011 11:02 PM (W58PC)
Posted by: Sock Puppet 5000 at March 12, 2011 11:08 PM (W58PC)
The problem is decay heat in the fuel. It can not be "turned off". It will be there come hell of high water and it must be removed or the fuel is damaged.
But yes, water in the fuel is surprising. The question is will we ever find out why? Think about how many people in the U.S. have ever read the NRC or INPO reports on TMI. Outside of the industry (and that mostly operators) the number is very few. Now think about how hard it will be to get a report from the Japanese plant months down the road.
In any event what they had was an accident that was far beyond design basis. The other thing I do not understand is why their steam driven pump was not functioning. It should work when nothing else does.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 11:08 PM (M9Ie6)
It has been my experience that spent fuel must decay for a few years before simple "air cooling" is sufficient to remove the heat. From an old spent fuel processing text I read once though in 300 years it is less radioactive than the original uranium mined from the ground.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 11:11 PM (M9Ie6)
The number one problem with diesels is probably air in high pressure injector line. Number 2? fuel! water in the fuel....fungus in the fuel....fuel gelling...particulate in the fuel.....water in the fuel filter.....water in the fuel line.....oxidation and the cetane rating being kerfunked.
Don't the Japanese have StaBil or Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement +Cetane Boost, 80 oz, treats up to 250 gal. (this from Amazon).
If you can't have ALL the fuel and gensets sufficiently hardened, cant you have ONE? or one big mobile with self contained fuel? Multiple mobile sources of fuel?
or it could be the gensets were not well maintained. But if they were not, it would show up in a monthly or bi monthly 24 hour run. With no oil or crappy fuel, you can't run one for 24 hours.
Posted by: jon at March 12, 2011 11:17 PM (+t0vj)
Posted by: Sock Puppet 5000 at March 12, 2011 11:20 PM (W58PC)
Ultimately they have to restore off-site power to be able to use the normal cooling systems. From what I can gather they are simply feeding the reactor with water now and dumping the steam to the containment. That is why they have to periodically vent the containment.
There is supposed to be a cooling system for containment as well that is fed from emergency power that would prevent having to dump steam but so far they have said nothing about it.
I am not an "expert" on BWR systems. Donroody(?) from last night is. He is/was licensed on BWRs, I was licensed on PWRs.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 11:29 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 12, 2011 11:42 PM (ZbLJZ)
All of their safety systems are supposed to be hardened for the design basis earthquake (7.2) and Tsunami.
It does appear though from their design review guide that their systems are supposed to be quite robust:
http://tinyurl.com/622odo5
But I note not much info on the design flood.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 11:48 PM (M9Ie6)
Unit 3 (Shut down)
- Reactor has been shut down. However, as High Pressure Core Injection
System has been automatically shut down and water injection to the
reactor was interrupted, following the instruction by the government and
with fully securing safety, steps to lowering the pressure of reactor
containment vessel has been taken. Spraying in order to lower pressure
level within the reactor containment vessel has been cancelled.
- After that, safety relief valve has been opened manually, lowering the
pressure level of the reactor, which was immediately followed by
injection of sea water and boric acid which absorbs neutron, into the
reactor pressure vessel.
- Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside
the reactor containment vessel.
So they have flooded boron into #3, it's probably done.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 12, 2011 11:53 PM (ZbLJZ)
And think about the design of a concrete building to take both an earthquake and wall of water 50 feet high moving at 50 mph. The walls I am familiar with for auxiliary building designed to take a 7.5 earthquake were 2 feet thick with 2000 psi concrete and rebar out the ying-yang. I can't imagine what you would have to do for a 50 foot wave traveling at 50 mph.
Needs some civil engineers here.
Posted by: Vic at March 12, 2011 11:55 PM (M9Ie6)
Jeraldo
Not sure I want any breakfast now.
Posted by: Vic at March 13, 2011 12:11 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Vic at March 13, 2011 12:24 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: B+rry Ob+owmao at March 13, 2011 03:01 AM (Z1IFt)
They didn't give him a lot of time.
Watching FOX now, even they put up banner "dangers of nuclear". If anything, this should show "safeties of nuclear". How long can liberal nuts and America haters control our energy supply and other policy? Hopefully no more than two more years.
Posted by: bill at March 13, 2011 03:20 AM (D6qOQ)
In my mind, they are the worst I've seen. Not because of the destruction captured, but because they all have reference points so you can figure out just how big the debris piles are.
One has a firetruck, and a first glance I found my heart begging my mind to believe it was just a toy.
Kind of like the pics after 9/11. Until you saw a pic of a man standing on the debris, it didn't look that big.
That is, your heart didn't have a hard time convincing your brain that the destruction wasn't that bad . . .
Posted by: momma at March 13, 2011 03:37 AM (penCf)
Posted by: bill at March 13, 2011 03:43 AM (D6qOQ)
Posted by: Marie at March 13, 2011 04:45 AM (GuTKr)
Flipping through the channels hit FNS with commie Wallace. Of course he and his panel of certified idiot fcks were all decrying the death of nuclear power despite all the money Obama has put into it from his budget.
Both of these statements are BS. The first is a self-defeating piece of shit and the second is an outright lie.
Posted by: Vic at March 13, 2011 04:50 AM (M9Ie6)
I don't have time to go through all the comments, but I would like to share a link with you that I got from my friend who has a Nuke master's degree and who works for the fed as a Nuke safety bureaucrat (and yes, I still love her despite this sad life choice).
Brave New Climate Blog: http://tinyurl.com/62ddddg
Basically, all the talk of meltdown and explosion is being severely overplayed by the media and we have nothing to worry about. Everything the Japanese plant operators have been doing so far is in hopes that they can reopen the plant in 5-10 years instead of possibly have it closed forever. The public and workers are not and have not been in danger. The radiation that did escape has already dissipated.
Even when I asked her for worst, worst case scenarios, they are things that can be handled and probably won't happen. I think you guys owe us a main post with the Brave New Climate blog link.
Posted by: Santos L. Helper at March 13, 2011 04:59 AM (oBPpF)
Posted by: Deanna at March 13, 2011 04:59 AM (SGS85)
"Just to be clear, at this point things are under control. I'm getting increasingly pissed at the media for covering the nuclear aspect of this so much more than the tsunami/earthquake portion of the story, when thousands of people have died from the latter.
The normal barriers to preventing radioactive release are:
fuel pellet integrity --> fuel cladding --> secondary containment (what blew up) --> primary containment (that houses the reactor vessel)
http://www.nei.org/filefolder/ BoilingWaterReactorDesign_3.jpg
So right now, the utility admits they've had fuel damage at two plants and the reactor building has blown off in one plant. This is very bad, somewhere in between Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and it means that the first three barriers I listed above are damaged. That being said, at this point there is probably MINIMAL fuel damage, not a full meltdown. We don't really use the term "meltdown" in the nuke industry, it's more of a media term, but I guess the media would describe it as the point where the fuel is so intensely damaged that the core loses it's geometry and forms a pool at the bottom of the reactor vessel. As long as they continue pumping in sea water, I don't foresee that happening, but it is possible; however, the containment would still be intact and prevent most of the radiation from escaping.
The radiation that we are seeing right now is due to two things: planned releases by the operators to reduce pressure, and regular leakage from containment. Containments leak a very small percentage of their contents as part of their design.
Even if there was a full meltdown, as long as we have containment intact, this is basically a Three Mile Island scenario: a very bad day, but no health consequences to the surrounding population. You will hear the media say that the radiation levels are above the public exposure limit. That limit is VERY small, about 1/500 of what I as a radiation worker can receive in a year, so saying the levels exceed that is jibberish.
Now to your other questions:
Simply, yes this is a catastrophe, but as long as the containment remains intact the people and the environment will be fine. As far as burying the fuel, my guess is they will try to get a secondary containment (the reactor building) back up around the primary containment ASAP, just to have a little breathing room. There's no need to "bury the fuel and not touch it" because the fuel is contained. They'll just need to ensure cooling for years to come.
The plant will never be operable again. They pumped in sea water, which is not acceptable for nuclear grade pipes, pumps, valves, etc. They also added boron, which for a BWR is not normal. Adding boron is a last-ditch effort for a BWR and would require a year to clean the systems. Add to that they added sea water, and that there's been fuel damage, and this plant will never operate again. It took somewhere around six years for us to enter containment at TMI and clean out the melted fuel there. With better robotics and things nowadays, it may happen sooner with this plant.
Things to listen for in the next few days:
We are approaching the same situation at two other plants, and other plants are stressed. This is not over yet.
If containment is challenged at this plant, that will be a very bad day indeed. They've evacuated a large section around the plant, so health effects would be minimal, but the environment would certainly be contaminated (like Chernobyl). How far the radiation would travel depends on the weather, but typically within ten miles you wouldn't see health effects."
Posted by: Santos L. Helper at March 13, 2011 05:00 AM (oBPpF)
Nuclear plants keep a large supply of clean water on standby for emergency use. But since they don't have any AC power, the plants would have been exclusively using this clean water supply as the make-up water for going on a couple days and they probably were running out of clean water. So their emergency procedures would call for switching to seawater since there is an infinite supply. At this point in time, they need only about 50 gpm to keep the core covered. Of course the best thing that could happen is to get the transmission grid power back to the plant, which would allow the operators to use the full complement of plant equipment to get into normal shutdown cooling.
Posted by: Spaceman at March 13, 2011 05:18 AM (3NZVq)
Needs some civil engineers here.
Posted by: Vic at March 13, 2011 03:55 AM
I wish I could recall where I read it, but it was reported that they had to stop pumping sea water several times because of tsunami alerts after some larger afetrshocks. I can't recall the reasoning but this would have slowed down the process.
Posted by: Deanna at March 13, 2011 05:18 AM (SGS85)
Have you vetted any of the links Brave New Climate provides at the link's page bottom as being worth a visit too?
Posted by: andycanuck at March 13, 2011 05:45 AM (7H/n0)
It gives great details, confirming Vic's comment that the fuel hadn't melted but some of the cladding?, or casing that holds the fuel? It would seem there was little chance of contamination of the neighborhood, so displacing 180,000 residents seems curious, especially given the already overburdened relief efforts.
Anyway, it confirms that FOX and CNN should have been taking their cue from the morons here.
Bolton was on FOX and he seemed to have it right also ... the system worked! Of course unlike Jannie Nepalitano, several correct steps were taken for the system to work. It wasn't left to blind chance.
Posted by: bill at March 13, 2011 07:18 AM (D6qOQ)
@382
US federal guidance is to evacuate in any general emergency (the severest US classification) and US licensees have implemented that into their emergency plans.
I dont have access to the Japanese equivalent of their emergency action levels or emergency procedures but they probably wont deviate much from early US BWRs. They probably did the right thing giving the evacuation orders when they did. I imagine those orders were carried out with difficulty as reports indicate heavy damage of transportation networks. So why WAIT until FORCED to do so.
Ability to ride a release out by giving sheltering orders may not be a practical consideration given the amount of damage structures took from the earthquake and tsunami.
My past career was USNRC in Health Physics and Emergency Preparedness.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 13, 2011 07:43 AM (pyWwh)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 13, 2011 08:40 AM (VW9Wz)
I am sad to hear that they are having to use seawater for cooling, because it sounds like that step is basically an admission that they are having to scrap the plant. Japan is going to have some power crunches coming up, I hope that it doesn't hurt their economy too badly.
Posted by: Santos L. Helper at March 13, 2011 10:04 AM (oBPpF)
Posted by: Spaceman at March 13, 2011 10:56 AM (3NZVq)
Posted by: Another Bob at March 13, 2011 11:13 AM (WkQAY)
http://tinyurl.com/49arhx9
Posted by: crosspatch at March 13, 2011 11:14 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 13, 2011 11:16 AM (ZbLJZ)
http://tinyurl.com/4oxylbf
Posted by: crosspatch at March 13, 2011 11:31 AM (ZbLJZ)
a simple, yet detailed, effective explanation, with no b.s. or spin, for simple people like me
Posted by: xtron at March 13, 2011 11:48 AM (KTMSJ)
"The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more."
Posted by: crosspatch at March 13, 2011 12:30 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 13, 2011 12:44 PM (VW9Wz)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 13, 2011 12:49 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Spaceman at March 13, 2011 02:29 PM (3NZVq)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 13, 2011 02:45 PM (ZbLJZ)
JAPANS gonna recover this disaster soon. the japanese guys r kind of distilled water in tsunamis they can overcome this pummering.
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