1 Just deposit my vouchers in the bank for me.

2
well, hit the fucking road and make your case, Mr Ryan

3 Keep the 11k, just get out of my fucking way!

4
Here's what's missing: this budget will save or create five hundred million jobs.

And it will increase national security.

5
And it's good for the environment.

6 Hey Fuckit--you're hash is almost "You Fucker."

7 your

8 Why bother ?

9 This is an extreme plan attacking seniors, children, and sick chilren and seniors, ah, and minorities very reminiscent of Hitler's Big Lie Strategy.  

10 It's a start. Too bad it won't go anywhere, but I will give the Ryan kid a pass on his next bout of stunning uselessness for the effort.

11 Captain Rameus always turns starboard at the bottom of every hour. It was a lucky guess. No guess that Mr. Ryan will start a shit storm. We will find out who the Conservatives really are

12 Dude, how much medical marijuana will an $11,000 voucher buy?

13 $11k will buy a lot of cat food for grandma.

14

Between what Ryan supposedly told Hannity and Rush, it sounds like the total number will be between $5-7T. Ryan also confirmed yesterday that the total would be "a lot more" than $4T, so it's anyone's guess as to what "a lot more" means.

Meanwhile, the Dems are screaming that this is the end of progressive government and they will be using the proposed [entitlement] reforms as a means to oust 50 Rs in Dem districts.

15 12, not enough to get me stoned.

16
it's You-Fock-You, actually

or...hey, you! fock you!

17 Does anyone remember the last time our Federal overlords reduced spending? I mean, actually reduced spending? That's what I thought.

18
I have no doubt we're headed towards a repeat of 1948.

These Republicans are afraid to lead.

19 17, I agree but they don't have a fuck of a lot of choice. They are out of money.

20 they don't have a fuck of a lot of choice. They are out of money.

Posted by: oldsailor's poet at April 04, 2011 06:35 PM (cDRYC)

But what happens when all the money is worth less?  This administration, for whatever reason, is pursuing an inflation strategy to get us out of debt.  See, Third World.  

21 A new one

Bacon Bookmarks.

22

But I don't think losing that skirmish helps us win the war; I don't think we can trade a loss here for a win on the bigger war. I think a victory in the smaller skirmish will make victory in the bigger war much more likely.  - Ace

 

So what hill are we supposed to go and die on? Just point me in the right direction and I'll do it!   

Always with the war metaphors, young man.  This politics things is often the art of what is doable.  I wish we could really form a plan that leads to a balanced budget in a couple of years.  I wish we could get entitlements under control.

I wish Barack Obama would have an epiphany tomorrow and start behaving like a rational human being, and show some economic sense,  but none of this wishing is going to make it happen. He's an egotistical narcissist and statist leftist and presently all is going according to HIS plans to turn these United States into some socialist  wet-dream.

It's not a perfect plan, but it's the only one we've got. I'm excited to be a part of this. Egon, Ray, let's do it!

23 @17 Well, they did cut staff budgets by.00000000001. X infinity % or something. Of course, they spent the "saving" a gazillion times over on some other stupid shit. Speaking of which, has anyone noticed gov't minion layoffs or anything else as a result of these piecemeal, token cuts that have allegedly been included in the monthly CR crap that they've been foisting on us, rather than doing their job? Me neither.

24 18 I have no doubt we're headed towards a repeat of 1948.

These Republicans are afraid to lead.

Regardless of how the Establishment feels, I think Ryan is serious about this. He's been talking about entitlement and tax reform as well as budgetary process reform since '03-'04. A number of the others may jump-off the bandwagon, but I think Ryan will do his best to see that this happens.

25

Another futile attempt by the well-meaning and ineffective kid...

 

 

 

26

"We'll use words like 'slash" and 'gut.'  Hell, we'll scare the voters so badly they'll be begging us to double the federal budget by the time we're through.  The Rethuglikkans who talk about cutting spending will be thrown out of office like shit through a goose." 

"It's a brilliant strategy, Harry, exactly the type of diabolically clever plan that I'd expect from a master politician like the Senate majority leader.  But, what do we do when the government runs so short of money that mathematically speaking, there's no way we can ever tax our way out of the hole?"

 

 

"Wait. What?"

27 Perhaps it's a non-threatening starting point that can get the voters to start thinking seriously about reforming their government.

Which the Democrats will immediately set out to paint as threatening.

28 Savings of Over $4 Trillion Over Ten Years
Let's see that's

$400B a year? And we are going into debt at a rate of $1.5T a year? So if we want to get back to 0 deficit we need a savings of $15T over 10 years. Almost 4x as much as Ryan's proposal. They need to either get serious about this or go home.

Ryan we need $500B of savings in the first year, and a balanced budget in 6 years, that's a savings of  $9 trillion in 6 years, otherwise we are sunk, kaput, DOOOMED!

29 Posted by: Downscaled Upscale at April 04, 2011 06:38 PM (IhHdM)

I hadn't read that.  Do you have a link?

When I was working for BCBSTX, that high a markup was a quick way to get a fraud review going.

We often got bills for, say $1500 for something on which we'd only allow (which is not exactly the same as pay) $75, though.  That's how the system works- doctors agree to an "allowed amount" equal to x% of the "Reasonable and Customary" charge (an average of the billed amount for that procedure in that geographical area), and then they jack up the R&C amount to increase their actual reimbursements.  Its why many Doctors who don't accept insurance at all charge far less- as long as you pay cash up front.

30

These cuts constitute 1.1% of 10 year budget, hardly draconian. Allowing Dems to talk about these cuts as HUGE gives the Dems an advantage they don't deserve. Who here hasn't adjusted their personal spending at least 1% in the current fiscal situation.

31

Rush honestly thinks that John "The King of Scotch" Boehner is going to go along with this?

 

Fuck me.

32 But what happens when all the money is worth less? This administration, for whatever reason, is pursuing an inflation strategy to get us out of debt. See, Third World. Now you are talking about a brand new bag of shit. Currency will be whiskey cigarettes and ammo. For now we still have a shot at getting this under control. When their constituents that live on Gov. Handouts can't feed their illigitament babies, beacause milk is $10 a gallon and bread is $10 a loaf, I think they will quickly lose credibility. Or they will just blame the rich whiteys.

33 Dream a little dream for me.

These things will happen only when reality intervenes.  I mean how can we do without cowboy poetry.

34
I appreciate Ryan's efforts. But it appears he has no or little support.

And as Mike points out above, this is a start but it's not enough.

$200B/yr in interest payments, alone, folks. Remember that. And that's based on what we owe at the moment; it's only gonna go up and up and up and...

35 The sick gulls in some areas would gobble up that grant money, then what. Some areas it might work, depending.

36 I'll say something optimistic when there are no more than 1 government leech (including elected and appointed leeches) for every 10,000 people who have jobs that actually produce something of value in the private sector and anyone who is not a legal citizen receives nothing from our government but a bus ride across the nearest boarder (or a bullet, I'm not picky).

37

When their constituents that live on Gov. Handouts can't feed their illigitament babies, beacause milk is $10 a gallon and bread is $10 a loaf, I think they will quickly lose credibility. Or they will just blame the rich whiteys.

I'll take "blame rich whitey" for $1,000, Alex.

38 I'm thinking Margaret Cho would have been a better President.

39
And I think we should raise taxes.

On members of Congress.

40 Biden just proposed a new Federal Aluminum Can Manufacturing Bureau that will create thousands jobs for hard working Americans to build aluminum cans that could then be redeemed for the deposit. We won't need to cut important programs for seniors if this can thing works out as projected.

41 Every third gubmint job should be cut. That would be a start. Then cut all of Education. Education is local, not national. Then we can talk about tougher cuts.

42 Exhibt 1.  See current drudge headline.

43

Biden just proposed a new Federal Aluminum Can Manufacturing Bureau that will create thousands jobs for hard working Americans to build aluminum cans that could then be redeemed for the deposit. We won't need to cut important programs for seniors if this can thing works out as projected.

Does this mean Biden has given up on the "Dig a Hole, Fill a Hole" Full Employment Initiative?

44 Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 04, 2011 06:43 PM (0q2P7)

And, like all political decisions, this one can be revisited continuously.  I think Sen. Ryan knows what's up, and I think he knows what needs to happen.

How does this sound as a strategy (imputing much more trust in Ryan than many would, I think): Get this passed- show that no Grannies or Grampas were harmed in the passing of this "Premium Support Plan" or whatever he calls it.  Get people used to the idea (again) that they can direct their own lives.

In a year or two, pass another, more steeply cut budget which moves Medicare and Medicaid even further onto the private sector, and begins moving SS to the private sector (voluntary opt-in, for instance).  Let that go for a couple of years before taking the next step, etc.

As much as Monty might like us to, we cannot just do away with Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security as government programs.  They will have to be phased out, and the phase out will have to be concealed as "reforms which will lead to sustainability..." or somesuch.

45
Federal Aluminum Can Manufacturing Bureau

Brilliant!
And because the cans are immediately recycled and the raw material is returned to the manufacturing plants, these are green jobs!

46 Next step:  Replace SS checks with lottery scratch-off tickets and bingo cards.  Everybody wins.

47 47, Oh, you mean like how Obama care wasn't really about healthcare, but about a constitution destroying socialist takeover. I like the way you think.

48

Even from the little that's been revealed, I think this is going to be an incredibly tough sell. The stories have already latched onto the age-old playbook and they will do whatever it takes to make sure this doesn't happen. I'd also add that, while it's not as extreme as we'd like or even what Ryan would like (compare this to this Roadmap), it's a good first step in trying to roll-back the beast that is the welfare state.

The hardest part is going to be selling this to the public, especially seniors. While they are not immediately affected by this, the Dems will run the usual ads and they might bolt. So Ryan and his allies need to constantly be out there hitting-back at the Dems, the liberal Rs, and the MFM if they even want to have a prayer of convincing the public that this is necessary.

49 When their constituents that live on Gov. Handouts can't feed their illigitament babies, beacause milk is $10 a gallon and bread is $10 a loaf, I think they will quickly lose credibility. Or they will just blame the rich whiteys. Posted by: oldsailor's poet at April 04, 2011 06:44 PM (cDRYC) Well, that strategy has kept them in office through all the milk, bread, and gas tax... I mean price... hikes so far. Why change now?

50 miss80sbaby can you please fill me in? Is this JUST the savings from changing how medicaid and medicare are handled? I think removing some of the bureaucracy from those pgms is a great idea. I'm just wondering if there is room for cuts to some of the feral government programs too.

51 Posted by: Downscaled Upscale at April 04, 2011 06:51 PM (IhHdM)

You don't know the worst of it.  I've seen worse, and helped gather the evidence.  It looks like a (sadly) fairly typical fraud complaint, to me.

It would happen occasionally (pretty rare, which is why it makes the news, but not unheard of, either).  It's why BCBS is very, very careful only to write contracts that agree to % of R&C.  Aetna got into trouble, if I'm reading that right, by agree to % of billed charges.  That's a recipe for disaster for an insurance company.   For comparison, imagine your car insurance agreeing to pay based on whatever your mechanic/body shop charged to repair your car, instead of insisting on having an adjuster set an estimate.

52 They will have to be phased out, and the phase out will have to be concealed as "reforms which will lead to sustainability..." or somesuch.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther)

 

This!!! Or just shoot all the "boomers" like me.

Tough choice.  Let me think about it....

53 "41 I'm thinking Margaret Cho would have been a better President." She'd damn sure be a better lay.

54 Posted by: oldsailor's poet at April 04, 2011 06:52 PM (cDRYC)

Now that you mention it... yes.  We've found that the tactic works- we may as well use it, too.

Kind of like the way Patton specifically studied the tacticians Rommel had studied- to better understand what would work against him.

55 How does this sound as a strategy...

Not bad really.

We need progressive moves toward a balanced budget, and eventually, a sustained budget surplus so that we can pay this monster debt down. Keeping in mind bonds continually come due, and we need to pay them and minimize the re-issuing of bonds in order to pay the existing ones at a slower rate. Because if we get into a situation where we can't re-issue the bonds for the same interest rate as the old bonds, our interest payment may grow and eat up any chance of eventually repaying this monster.

56 54 miss80sbaby can you please fill me in? Is this JUST the savings from changing how medicaid and medicare are handled? I think removing some of the bureaucracy from those pgms is a great idea. I'm just wondering if there is room for cuts to some of the feral government programs too.

Likely not, though no one will know until he releases the full plan at 9am tomorrow with the CBO numbers. Interestingly, some of the information dealing with specific numbers that was leaked was incorrect. What is known is that Chairman Ryan talked to Hannity last week and Rush this morning; he supposedly told Hannity that he was exceeding his last budget ($4.8T cut) and Rush said it might be around $6-7T. We also have what the Chairman said yesterday on Fox News Sunday.

57 Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes.... at April 04, 2011 06:56 PM (sJTmU)

Well, the bullet would be cheaper in the long run...

No, really, the other benefit of the phase out approach is that it allows the private sector to adjust to the new market with less upheaval.  Meaning that people are hurt less than they might otherwise be.

58 Here's the Fox News Sunday transcript plus video.

59 Meaning that people are hurt less than they might otherwise be. Posted by: AllenG I'm with ya! It's real politics, the art of the doable. Of course, they could just shoot me and my cohort too. That would work.

60 AllenG I'm with you on the phase out idea. I suggested here before that politicians should just finally admit that entitlements were a fraud from the beginning and put q deadline on them. Everyone past age X get's nothing. Borrowing is nothing new for us, so we borrow enough to pay for everything until time's up and immediately cut entitlement taxes for everyone under the threshold. Even if we're talking about 25 years of debt, it's better than what the alternatives are. If we did that, along with cutting 8 out of 10 government programs and minions, we'd be flush in no time. Yup, the transition would be ugly, but all those who'd be freaking out are nothing but leeches on society anyhow. There choice is boat ride to the country of their choice or bullet. They've been telling us that everywhere is better than here for a long time. No reason that we should keep them somewhere where they are so unhappy.

61

OT: Rep. West's 1st bill, H.R. 1246, passed in the House 393-0 with 39 lawmakers not voting.

H.R. 1246: "To reduce the amounts otherwise authorized to be appropriated to the Department of Defense for printing and reproduction"

62 You know who likes this plan?  This guy:

Tomorrow, we are told that Congressman Paul Ryan will unveil the first serious plan for long-term debt reduction. I'll wait to see it before I comment. But the leaked outlines are highly encouraging. Medicare would become Obamacare for seniors, with competing private insurance options, rather than a single payer; Medicaid would be turned into block grants for the states to finance healthcare for the poor. For good measure, there appears to be serious tax reform, elimination of tax shelters and tax breaks in order to bring down the rate of income tax, while not losing revenue.

This $4 trillion bite into long term debt passes the credibility gap for me.

Andrew Sullivan



Now I'm really worried....

63 Ace, please send that last paragraph over to tepid air...they can't seem to find an issue, any issue to stand on....GULP

64

The country committed suicide in November 2008.

This is just the rigor mortis kicking in..

65 "vouchers"

Here's the thing: while I agree with you in theory , the practice is an altogether different thing.

Consider college tuition. With Pell Grants (etc), scholarships, and other grants and loans available, college tuition costs are astronomical. Why is that? Simple economics: supply and demand. With a veritably inexhaustible supply of money from which to draw, and so many marginal students (who would no doubt have benefited greatly from more vocational-oriented options), the cost of a four year degree is, well, out of sight. You yourself have blogged on this (via, IIRC, a link for Insty).

Why would insurance be any different?

I've been in the insurance biz for going on 30 years (and write for one of the premier insurance blogs on the 'net), and can tell you that the carriers would see this $11k windfall for exactly what it is. The reality is that rates would continue to increase (above and beyond trend) simply becuase of the "free money" available from the gummint.

Of course, this is exactly what the "progressives" want: they can point to skyrocketing rates as proof positive that a government-run program would save money. Never mind that this is a pipe dream, it's precisely the "crisis they can't afford to waste."

Does this mean that it's a bad idea? Not necessarily, but I invoke Mr Wolfe's rule....

66

From what I read today, The Atlantic was hitting it just as hard as the rest of the MFM, so I'm surprised that he would actually like it. Aspects of it are either from the "extremist" Roadmap or Rivlin-Ryan, so I have a hard time buying that Sullivan suddenly supports means-testing & "premium support systems" for Medicare and block grants for Medicaid.

67

No more free anything for anybody.

Fuck 'em.

Problem solved!

68 Oh, I see what Sullivan did-- he bought Dr. Rivlin's argument RE what she would do to implement Rivlin-Ryan and he's running with her comparison to O-Care. Ryan said they split ways on that issue and he didn't endorse it.

69 The day Scott Brown cried...

70

Sullivan continues:

"But here's where I go squishy.

I think there needs to be some revenue increases as well - and a return to Clinton era rates for the super-rich. I'd also favor a gas tax to recoup the expense for the unfunded wars, and make that tax directly linked to the costs of war in the future. By the same principle, bank bonuses should become subject to a new tax, to help recoup the lost revenue caused by the banks' recklessness. This is called shared sacrifice. To balance the budget entirely on the backs of the poor will not and should not fly."

Oh, so he praises it as being serious while arguing it balances the budget on the backs of the poor. Can't have this one both ways, Andy.

71 If there are hot, Asian nurses involved, count me in!

72 @70


I think we all have time buying anything Andy says nowadays, but here we are.

Andy also wants to tack on more taxes for the evil bankers, and gas taxes to finance the war he now hates, but otherwise he seems pretty cool with the plan,

Linked: http://bit.ly/gIyDlQ

73 Let me sum up my reaction to Ryan's plan in the following way:

Any policy recommendation that gives E.J. Dionne a case of Defcon 5 vapors of the type that he had in his WaPo column today is, by definition, "Fuckin' A."

74

76 @70 But he's arguing it's serious while stating that it balances the budget on the backs of the poor. It seems that he's just trying to be relevant and agree with the near-universal statement that Paul Ryan is a serious individual.

Besides, from what I've read, everyone from Rush to the more hardcore conservatives at NRO and The WSJ to a majority of real conservatives in the House and Senate like this proposal. This makes sense because it sounds like the Budget Committee* is actually following-through on proposals they've been discussing for months. So Sully can knock himself out by emulating those who call Ryan serious while complaining he's hurting the poor and needy.

_{*Mostly either RSC members or freshmen}

75

Politico is now claiming Budget settled at $6T. Whether this is just another link or the actual number remains to be seen, though it confirms what Rush said earlier today.

76 Edit: "leak" not "link"

77 Final number for 2012 budget= $6.2T in cuts

78 And that's not some tiny voucher, either -- that's $11,000 per year to buy insurance with. And yet even such a sizable "golden" insurance policy would not be as costly as the current system. (It would also produce better results, as a nice bonus.)

Ace - You apparently haven't studied this subject.  Why don't you do so before you embarrass yourself further.

Medicare is not expensive because it is a single payer system.  Ryan's idea is a recipe for disaster.

Where is your data saying it would produce "better results"?

Currently, Medicare pays out, on average, about $11,000 per person.  Hence that nice $11,000 voucher figure.  But that is nowhere near how those dollars are really apportioned.

65 yr olds in good health can, and do, draw benefits of.. wait for it.. ZERO DOLLARS!  Actually, since they are paying premiums, they are negative into the system.  Sickly Medicare recipients receive the benefits.  And these are mostly paid out in the recipient's final year of life.

It's a risk pool.  Read up on that subject why don't you all.  Some get more than others.

A fucking $11,000 voucher to a healthy 65 yr old does one thing and one thing only... pads the bottom line of a private insurer.

And, allotting only $11,000 (or even $15-$20000 on some new scale) for insurance puts the person at end-of-life scrabbling for care because a private insurer will never provide what Medicare does at that stage.

I respect Ryan, usually.  But just because it is Ryan proposing this, don't throw reason out the window.  Be a little skeptical, ok?

79

@11: "We will find out who the Conservatives really are"

There's two dudes down in the copy center, four of the Capitol Hill police, and about a baker's dozen of office interns.  Beyond that inside the Beltway......*tumbleweeds*

80 Abolish uneeded goverment agencies the EPA,DEPT of HOMELAND SECRURATY,DEPT of EDUCATION, GET US OUT OF THE UN,NATO,REPEAL NAFTA,THE ESA,

81

Chi-Town Jerry has it right.  $11,000 won't cover the cost of private health insurance for an average 65 year old now, never mind after many more years of 15-25% annual health care cost increases.  A 65 year old person now has an average life expectancy of 84.  Even with "modest" (by recent experience) 15% annual increases in health care costs and no adjustment for risk due to increased age, that 65 year old would be looking at annual premiums of $77,000 in 14 years.  I don't think many will realistically be able to afford that, with or without a voucher.  Risk pooling and serious cost containment are needed.

Worse, Ryan's plan turns Medicare into just another "means tested" income redistributing welfare program.  So all of us who have paid into the system for 4+ decades and have actually worked and saved a bit will get squat.

No, thanks.