1 It's early.

2 I agree with that.

3 Eh. Minnesota nice won't work at the presidential level. Bambi will ambush him without a hint of compunction. Just ask the Supremes and Paul Ryan.

4

Well, you either stand up, Pawlenty, or you are a bump in the road for Mitt's campaign bus.

 

5 Yeah, Minnesota nice isn't going to play here.  Folks want to see that TP can handle the rough and tumble the Dems will hand out this year.  If he can't, he has no chance of being nominated.

6 Chalk it up to Minnesota Nice. I am surprised that T-Paw didn't apologize for calling O-care Obamney-care.

7 >>It's early. Not when you are fighting for money in an increasingly crowded field. This race is shaping up as the Romney vs not-Romney and there is going to be a huge scramble for the not-Romney money starting yesterday.

8 Just once I wish the candidates would unite and call the moderators on this crap. Just back in their face, why are you asking this, or why now? what are you after here?   or criticize a gayballz question to someone else.  I mean, act as a team. 

9 I am afraid Pawlenty is not going to get anyone fired up in any significant way. Not to the extent that someone whose name rhymes with Hara Mailin does, for example.

10
It's like a remake of Desperately Seeking Susan, with Pawlenty taking the Rosanna Arquette role and Romney as Madonna.

11 As I described him some weeks ago.. he's the kid that always gets picked on in the school lot during recess.

I really like his ideas, but he just ain't the big dog we need to go after the Bamster.

12 I am pretty certain that either the candidates themselves or RNC agreed to have a non confrontational debate when on CNN, and to attack only Obama. I know it sounds too reasonable for them, but I'm an optimist.

13 He's a non entity in the most recent post debate poll

14

Not to the extent that someone whose name rhymes with Hara Mailin does, for example.

There's a joke in there somewhere about "mailing it in"....but I can't find it.

15

Its early and he's laid out some markers with ethanol and economic policy that already differentiate him from the current field ...

Do we really need to see alot of bomb throwing this early in the GOP primaries ?   I don't think so ...

16 Minnesota nice won't work at the presidential level.

I ain't got TIME to be nice.

17 This has nothing to with "nice".  This is stupid.

TPaw brought this up the day before.  He should have been ready to discuss it.  He wimped out.  He's finished.

18

I took it as John King attempting to provoke a fight, just for ratings and to help the Democrats, and Pawlenty, surprised by that, a little on the wrong foot.

Shouldn't there BE a fight? After all, Utah Mormon Mitt Romney claims on the one hand to be against ObamaCare but he's FOR  states implementing precisely the same programs. As governor of Massachusetts, he signed into law the precursor of ObamaCare that featured a requirement that citizens either buy health insurance or pay a $2,000 per year fine.

Mitt Romney cannot have it both ways. A court has ruled that ObamaCare, because of its individual mandate, is unconstitutional. And yet, Mitt Romney says he is for individual mandates requiring Americans to purchase products from Democrat Party affiliated donor companies. He's FOR something that is unconstitutional.

If John King wants to provoke a fight ... that can ONLY be good for the Republican Party because there needs to BE a fight on this issue.

The Republican nominee for President cannot be someone who has come out in support of something that has been ruled by the courts to be unconstitutional.

19 I may be a wimp, but I still look like Chuck Norris compared to our current president.

20 @8
That would solve 2 problems for TP.  He can ream someone that everyone else hates and show he's tough, without having to attack a fellow Repub directly, at least not yet.

21 I didn't see the debate, so I don't really have a take on it.  However, the coverage afterwords suggests to me (reading between the lines, as it were) that Ace's read is probably more-or-less correct.

Now, I think that everyone at the debate should have just pretended that John King wasn't there and have a real debate among themselves- but they didn't do that.  Within the format, I think basically everyone performed roughly as well as could have been expected.

Though that raises an interesting question: is it just me (judging only from an "after-the-fact-based-only-on-second-hand-accounts" perspective) or did the format (of a fairly random series of questions from the "ho-hum" to the "gotcha") necessarily lend itself to helping the front-runner: since no one could build any kind of momentum on any given topic?

22

Do we really need to see alot of bomb throwing this early in the GOP primaries ?   I don't think so ...

Does a guy polling 8th out of 9 candidates need to separate himself from the other scrubs and present himself as the clear alternative to the front runner that is Romney?

I would think so if T-Paw has any desire to win.

23

TPaw brought this up the day before.  He should have been ready to discuss it.  He wimped out.  He's finished.

 

 

So what, do we just accept Romney as the eventual winner and hope he can beat Bammy?

24 You know who was the biggest winner of that debate? CNN for managing to get the GOP to keep playing by CNN rules. The one thing you should salvage from Gingrich is his occasional pushback. It says something that these stupid debate formats run by hostiles posing as moderators still attracts GOP cooperation.

25 Pentagon Suspect Identified as Marine Corps Reservist

26 So what, do we just accept Romney as the eventual winner and hope he can beat Bammy? Posted by: Wyatt Earp at June 17, 2011 11:19 AM (zgZzy) Or get Perry and hope he's the white knight.

27 Not when you are fighting for money in an increasingly crowded field. This race is shaping up as the Romney vs not-Romney and there is going to be a huge scramble for the not-Romney money starting yesterday.

Howdy, y'all.

28

That would solve 2 problems for TP. 

 

 

I'm ready to throw this TP onto Old Man McCain's trees.

29 "... and Romney as Madonna." That cries out to be pshopped into the sidebar.

30 Mitt Romney cannot have it both ways. A court has ruled that ObamaCare, because of its individual mandate, is unconstitutional. And yet, Mitt Romney says he is for individual mandates requiring Americans to purchase products from Democrat Party affiliated donor companies. He's FOR something that is unconstitutional. I don't like Romney, but I'm pretty sure the judge said it was unconstitutional for the federal government to do it, because of the specifics regarding Congress's authority to tax. Massachusetts still has the right to have an individual mandate by state law, even though it is a bad idea.

31

Or get Perry and hope he's the white knight.

 

\He has to get in first.  And if he's gonna do it, I'd rather him do it now.

32

Should-a, would-a, could-a....

I think that the Republicans have no chance against Obama, and because of that, I will be staying home this November on election night. 

33 So what, do we just accept Romney as the eventual winner and hope he can beat Bammy?

No- get behind someone that we actively like: Hermann Cain (but he's never held elected office!!!), or Michelle Bachman (but I'm sure she also has some disqualifying frailty), or try to draft Rick Perry (but Guardisil!!!) or...  well, I think you see where I'm going.

The point is that, at this point, very, very few of the supporters of politicians are highlighting their preferred candidates' strong points, and are instead attempting to poison the proverbial well for the other candidates.  That needs to stop.

34 Fox had Larry Sabato on this morning and both were pushing this "wimp" thing hard a saying it was a major gaff.

They also put T-Paw on and he said he should have gone after Romney. I still think they made a "deal" before the debate. And a deal like that could only help Romney.

As for the CNN guy playing "gotcha" that guy did that on just about every question. The Republicans need to not do any more debates with CNN. All CNN wants to do is make them all look bad.

Unfortunately according to that schedule I posted yesterday they have another one for CNN later on this fall.

35 I saw it as head's you're beta, tails you're not alpha -- ether your decline, in which case you're beta, or your hop-to when John King tells you to, in which case you're not alpha.

Well that little situation was his fault for making a play like that right before he had to appear publicly with Romney. What did he think the CNN moderator *wouldn't* work an obvious breach of the 11th? That's just not thinking things through. Even if it was spur of the moment he should have thought through when it got splashed all over the blogs and considered the repercussions and been better prepared for discussing that comment in the debate.

This does not bode well for candidate Tpaw if he is so exceptionally short sighted he *couldn't* see that one coming.

36 Just lyin low until Sarah Palin gets in and they all slime each other, you betcha.

37 Massachusetts still has the right to have an individual mandate by state law, even though it is a bad idea.

Agreed- isn't stutters trying to float his mandate via the commerce clause?

38

You know who was the biggest winner of that debate? CNN for managing to get the GOP to keep playing by CNN rules. The one thing you should salvage from Gingrich is his occasional pushback. It says something that these stupid debate formats run by hostiles posing as moderators still attracts GOP cooperation

Yeah, I concur. Don't want Newt to win, but I did like how he took umbridge with the loaded questions.

If a five year old immigrant turns up at the ER should he be turned away?

Should we give Amnesty or round up all 20 million people and deport them?

The RNC and GOP should understand that the MSM is going to do everything they can to destroy the Republican candidate while their still in the cradle(primaries).

That's not to say all debates should be on fox, but the GOP should find a format that excludes media members participation.

Maybe townhall debates moderated by a right leaning host, like Brit Hume.

 

39

"... and Romney as Madonna."

That cries out to be pshopped into the sidebar.

 

Must have him in the requisite Madonna Corn Cone bra!

40 >>I don't like Romney, but I'm pretty sure the judge said it was unconstitutional for the federal government to do it, because of the specifics regarding Congress's authority to tax. Massachusetts still has the right to have an individual mandate by state law, even though it is a bad idea. It's already been ruled on by a MA Superior Court in 2009. Lawful.

41

The point is that, at this point, very, very few of the supporters of politicians are highlighting their preferred candidates' strong points, and are instead attempting to poison the proverbial well for the other candidates.  That needs to stop.

 

 

Agreed.  Primary the candidates during the primaries . . . not a year before.

42 And by 'go after Romney', I mean... it's his turn. I should wait.

43 The point is that, at this point, very, very few of the supporters of politicians are highlighting their preferred candidates' strong points, and are instead attempting to poison the proverbial well for the other candidates. That needs to stop. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at June 17, 2011 11:22 AM (8y9MW) There are so many players on the field that that sort of thing is going to be inevitable until everybody but the winner is shaken out. It's going to be a nasty primary season unless somebody really surges ahead early.

44 Maybe Republican debates should be moderated by Republicans.

45 Unfortunately according to that schedule I posted yesterday they have another one for CNN later on this fall.

Here's a chance for someone to demonstrate real leadership.  Tell CNN, we're the candidates, here's our preferred format, and if you don't like it, tough.  There is a risk that the other candidates wouldn't follow, but then what better way is there to set yourself apart from the pack then to dis the most reviled outfit this side of the DNC?

46

Doesn't matter why Pawlenty declined the opportunity to attack, at that moment he looked weak and weakness is a sin that voters will not excuse. The biggest obstacle for GHW Bush to overcome during the primary campaign was the perception that he was weak and it still stuck to him for a good while after he secured the nomination.

Pawlenty's internal numbers on this must look pretty bad.

47 You have three bland guys standing up there that do nothing for the gina tingle....and they all wore the same color suit and power blue tie. I can't get over that.

Superficial? Of course. Then again so are women voters.

48 Here's what T-Paw coulda, shoulda, woulda done, and what all GOP candidates need to do in the future: Agree to the debate rules. And then break them. If the moderator tries to shut you up, tell him, "You aren't running for President. I am. Shut up, little man." Then, if he shuts off your mike, walk over and turn it back on, staring him in the face as you do so. Nobody a year from now will care that someone broke CNN's debate rules. They will care about acting like a wimp.

49 that character on Leave it Beaver -- Wally? -- who always did wrong and then had some transparent "Gee Mrs. Cleaver I didn't know..."

You mean Eddie Haskell?

50 Eddie Haskel.

51 He has to get in first.  And if he's gonna do it, I'd rather him do it now.


Perry has to wait for our legislative special session to end this month. Look for an announcement in early July. (God willing)

52 "Pentagon Suspect Identified as Marine Corps Reservist"

DHS said the right wing former military types were the ones to watch out for

53 Unfortunately according to that schedule I posted yesterday they have another one for CNN later on this fall.

Gunh gunh gunh gunh ggggggunh uhhhnggh gunh gungh Great news!

54 You have three bland guys standing up there that do nothing for the gina tingle....and they all wore the same color suit and power blue tie. I can't get over that.


Cain was rocking his yellow tie.

55 Poor Cain has reached his zenith

56 In case you missed it

Debate schedule

57 I love to bag on Ed Morrissey as Cabin Boy Ed for his "play nice" nonsense, but he's absolutely correct when he dismisses this inane "debate" format, which he justifiably hates. He points out they are designed for about two things, neither of them dispositive nor educational. First, generating one-liner sound bites, and second, "gotcha" moments. As for illuminating the potential of actual governance, you may as profitably put a corncob on a brassiere.

58 CAAAAAIIIIINNNNN!!!!!

59 ....weakness is a sin that voters will not excuse.

Oh, really?

60

Nobody a year from now will care that someone broke CNN's debate rules. They will care about acting like a wimp.

I like the way you think, but I remember about the 2000 campaign was the second debate where Al Gore looked like he wanted to start a brawl with George Bush. My takeaway was that Gore was nuts.

61

Massachusetts still has the right to have an individual mandate by state law, even though it is a bad idea.

Perhaps (and I'm not necessarily agreeing with you), but that doesn't mean Mitt Romney has to support that. Mitt Romney believes that states shoudl be allowed to force citizens to purchase products from companies that donate heavily to Democrats.

Romney's position puts money into the Democrat Party. How does that help Republicans?

That's wrong for the Republican Party and will lead to its destruction if he becomes the nominee. It's wrong for America and it's wrong for individual states and it can easily be made unconsitutional on the state level by altering state constitutions.

And King is right to prompt a discussion on this issue. This issue needs to be discussed because Barack Obama is going to use this issue against Romney.

62 56 In case you missed it Debate schedule Posted by: Vic at June 17, 2011 11:29 AM (M9Ie6) Heh. All of December 2011/January 2012 is all Des Moines all the time. I'll bet the political types get pretty sick of staying at the Holiday Inn Des Moines that whole time.

63 If the moderator tries to shut you up, tell him, "You aren't running for President. I am. Shut up, little man." Holy crap... that phrase brought back a memory. This stuff is golden, if you have the right mindset. Not a good mindset, but the necessary one. http://shutuplittleman.com

64 Cain was rocking his yellow tie.

Yeah, he looked sharp. I'm talking about the three dolts that looked like they share the same DNA.

65 Hey, let's invite a bunch of Republicans and get them to discuss their positions on Democratic talking points...

66 What is this "T-Paw" nonsense? Is he a candidate for a POTUS? Or a member of the Dogg Pound?

67 Cain's knowledge reminds me of lake ice in late spring.

68

Featuring the morons as the panel of questioners.

 

 

Mr. Romney, why do you hate people with bad hair?

69 well T-Paw lost support after the debate as the polls, showed he better start showing some fight and quit being like vanilla

70

 The comparison made was to that character on Leave it Beaver -- Wally? -- who always did wrong and then had some transparent "Gee Mrs. Cleaver I didn't know..." excuse.

I have it on good authority from my friend Eddie that Michelle Bachman does not speak jive.

 

 

71 Ms. Bachmann, nightie, nightshirt, or nekkid under the sheets?

72 Featuring the morons as the panel of questioners.

Mr. Romney, what is your position on ewoks?

73

67 What is this "T-Paw" nonsense? Is he a candidate for a POTUS? Or a member of the Dogg Pound?

 

 

Capturing the African-American vote, baby!

74

T-Paw is too nice and that's not going to change. T-Paw vs. Romney is two milquetoast candidates competing to be king milquetoast.

 

Sad when Bachmann has the biggest set of any of the 'front-runners.'

75 I like the way you think, but I remember about the 2000 campaign was the second debate where Al Gore looked like he wanted to start a brawl with George Bush. My takeaway was that Gore was nuts."

But Al Gore is not nuts simply because of the brawl.

76 "Al Gore looked like he wanted to start a brawl with George Bush. My takeaway was that Gore was nuts."

At the time, that's what I thought too. But with ensuing events and the benefit of hindsight, I can now be certain Gore simply wanted Bush to adjust his chakra.

77

The Republican nominee for President cannot be someone who has come out in support of something that has been ruled by the courts to be unconstitutional.

Posted by: someguy
.........
Yeah.. what Ken said above..

Only un-constitutional for the feds to do this.

The states already have mandates like forcing you to purchase auto insurance.. quite legal.

78 Ms. Bachmann, may I smell your seat after the debate?

79 I liked T-Paw more than most, but he doesn't seem to be catching on.  The main thing for me right now is defeating Obama.  Anyone with a heartbeat will do.  Any Republican in the race and even those considering running are a better bet than Obama.  We simply couldn't do any worse.  McCain would have been better than this guy any day and I don't like McCain at all.

80 The comparison made was to that character on Leave it Beaver -- Wally? -- who always did wrong and then had some transparent "Gee Mrs. Cleaver I didn't know..." excuse.

Eddie.Haskell.

You're still pretty much a pup, ain't ya Ace?

81

McCain would have been better than this guy any day and I don't like McCain at all.

 

I'm ready to run again, my friends.

82 and they all wore the same color suit and power blue tie. There's no such thing as a 'power blue tie' to me. I thought red was Da Bom! when it came to ties?

83 What is this "T-Paw" nonsense? Is he a candidate for a POTUS? Or a member of the Dogg Pound? T-Paw, MC Romnee, Cain Mac Daddy and Bach Mankiller on stage, live at Hip Hop ConFab, De Bait for De Peoples, tickets at Ticketmaster

84

Yonathan Melaku, 22

Looks like we have a "rowdy youth" on our hands. I'm sure it will end up having nothing whatsoever to do with his Islamic faith.

At any rate, appears to be nothing but a confused huffer: "The FBI said the man had a backpack with him.  Items found "in bags" in the backpack were deemed suspicious, but later determined to be non-explosive material.  Sources later told NBC Washington that the items were cans of spray paint."

85 we need a fighter not a doormat.

86 75

67 What is this "T-Paw" nonsense? Is he a candidate for a POTUS? Or a member of the Dogg Pound?

Capturing the African-American vote, baby!

Touche.

87 Wally?! Wally?! I can tell you're not a baby boomer. It was Eddie Haskell, for God's sake! (Sorry if this has already been addressed.)

88 There's no such thing as a 'power blue tie' to me. I thought red was Da Bom! when it came to ties? Posted by: t-bird at June 17, 2011 11:36 AM (FcR7P) The Dress for Success guides always say red with paisley amoebas or yellow with manly polka dots. Christ I hate ties.

89

What is this "T-Paw" nonsense?

This is the politics of love. But miracles aren't happening.

(T-Paw, T'Pau -- close enough.)

90

85 What is this "T-Paw" nonsense? Is he a candidate for a POTUS? Or a member of the Dogg Pound?


T-Paw, MC Romnee, Cain Mac Daddy and Bach Mankiller on stage, live at Hip Hop ConFab, De Bait for De Peoples, tickets at Ticketmaster

Touche part 2. The Revenge.

91 Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life and Killer of Polar Bears at June 17, 2011 11:31 AM (OWjjx)

I like this idea.  An I reject the notion that it would be less than informative.  If nothing else, it would inform us how they would respond to someone like EoJ.

92

You can take this as you like, of course, but I never took it as the "wimp" thing. I took it as John King attempting to provoke a fight, just for ratings and to help the Democrats, and Pawlenty, surprised by that, a little on the wrong foot.

My assumption is that he had planned to address this, in due time, but felt he couldn't with John King basically demanding he do so.

--

I lean more toward little brother picking on his bigger brother when mom and dad aren't watching so he can provoke the bigger brother to lash out in a way that gets him punished. 

Pawlenty, for all of his "I wouldn't choose to use the cross-hairs" careful language thingy, decided to start the whole thing by coining Obamneycare.  When he was called to defend it with Mitt standing right there, he wouldn't.  So he was snotty - and unpresidential - by making this cutesy jab at Romney behind his back, as it were, and then singularly unimpressive by being willing or able to go toe to toe with Romney at the debate. 

He (Pawlenty) felt he couldn't control the tone of what happened with King in the room?  That gives me so much confidence.

Really, he has a lot of work to do to get my attention, especially with the prospect of Perry jumping in.  I think you're wasting your time on T-Paw, ace. 

93 I only cringe in fear if the AOSHQ Debate happens and Sarah Palin is an actual candidate. I pray God will forgive me. Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life and Killer of Polar Bears at June 17, 2011 11:39 AM (OWjjx) He'd better, because Todd won't.

94 powder, you arseholes

95 Pawlenty comes across like he's applying for a job for a social director - even though he has good credentials for president, he just comes across as a weakling.

Not that there is anything wrong with weaklings, but we need a person that exerts a sense of power and is not afraid to use it.

Let us just hope this does not become a 3 way.  The GOP needs to embrace Michelle Bachmann - pick her at least for VP spot.

96

92

What is this "T-Paw" nonsense?

This is the politics of love. But miracles aren't happening.

(T-Paw, T'Pau -- close enough.)

If his campaign song is "Heart & Soul"... I. QUIT.

97 Poor Cain has reached his zenith He reached his zenith when he made the comment about gun rights being a state issue. I don't in my heart believe he's a gun grabber, but when you're so ill-informed about an issue this close to the hearts of many Republican, independent, and moderate Democrat voters, you really shouldn't be running for President. He's a good man, but he needs to learn more about the issues. For those of you who don't know: McDonald v. Chicago established that this is not a state issue. The 14th Amendment as applied to the 2nd Amendment absolutely forbid state gun bans, or local gun bans (since cities are chartered by states). This is a hugely important issue to many millions of Americans. To accidentally get on the wrong side of it would be analogous to giving an answer about Iraq or Afghanistan, and mixing them up with Clinton's Bosnia operation. To many of us, the 2nd Amendment is the crucial civil rights issue of our day, and we want you to not only voice support for it, but to be familiar with our struggle.

98

I only cringe in fear if the AOSHQ Debate happens and Sarah Palin is an actual candidate.

 

 

 

Ms. Palin, what is your position on the Karma Sutra, and may I touch your fine, milk-fed boobies?

99 by being willing or able to

That's UNwilling or UNable... geez, I'm apparently still high from the paint fumes. 

100

I have said it before. I will say it again. We still need the AOSHQ Republican Presidential Primary Debate.

Featuring the morons as the panel of questioners.

Informative? Probably not.

Entertaining? Hell yes.

 

I would looooove to see the debate where EmpireofJeff is the moderator--Republican or Democrat, I don't care which side.  That would be so entertaining.  I'd even pay to see it!

101 An astute political observer commented on Pawlenty's misstep in the debate: "What I would like to see is the GOP contenders not hesitating to call one another out on their records. We condemn the Democrats quite often, I know I do, for not having vetted their own candidate and allowing him to rise to the surface a few years ago. He wasnÂ’t vetted by the press but he also wasnÂ’t vetted by his own party. ItÂ’s kind of hypocritical for Republicans to think we shouldnÂ’t be calling each other out on our records. ItÂ’s very important that we do in fairness to the electorate."

102 "Mr. Gingrich, with respect to import tariffs, do you favor chocolate diamonds mined by wage slaves in South Africa, or pearls culled by nubile young Thai pearl divers flogged by cruel masters? I ask this question on behalf of luxury jewelers in economic distress."

103

I took it as John King attempting to provoke a fight, just for ratings and to help the Democrats, and Pawlenty, surprised by that,

Which sadly says a lot about Pawlenty. How can anyone be surprised at the lengths to which the DemSM will go?

104 Romney and Huckabee both remind me of that slick shyster Wally.

105

Let us just hope this does not become a 3 way.  The GOP needs to embrace Michelle Bachmann - pick her at least for VP spot.

 

 

Three way and Bachmann in the same paragraph.  *drools*

106

Not that there is anything wrong with weaklings, but we need a person that exerts a sense of power and is not afraid to use it.

Particularly with China and Russia getting a bit too cozy for our sakes.

Reagan was pushing 70 when he became President, but he emitted a quiet, great strength and self-confidence, which is the kind of person we need at the helm now.

107 >>>Mitt Romney cannot have it both ways. A court has ruled that ObamaCare, because of its individual mandate, is unconstitutional. And yet, Mitt Romney says he is for individual mandates requiring Americans to purchase products from Democrat Party affiliated donor companies. He's FOR something that is unconstitutional. It's generally accepted (not sure if it's been put to the test) that the states, having the police power (which the federal government doesn't have), actually have greater power to boss citizens about than the specifically limited federal government. Almost all states require auto insurance. I know that's a little different, but the feds have never been thought to have such a power.

108

I like this idea.  An I reject the notion that it would be less than informative.  If nothing else, it would inform us how they would respond to someone like EoJ.

 

Geez, you're speedy!  Ok, that's two votes for EofJ.  Do I hear three?

109

The comparison made was to that character on Leave it Beaver -- Wally? -- who always did wrong and then had some transparent "Gee Mrs. Cleaver I didn't know..." excuse.

Eddie Haskell.

110

Geez, you're speedy!  Ok, that's two votes for EofJ.  Do I hear three?

Thirded.

111 I took it as John King attempting to provoke a fight, just for ratings and to help the Democrats, and Pawlenty, surprised by that,

That was painfully obvious. Pawlenty should have come prepared to smack down King for the "stuck on stupid".

112

Palin last night said they should criticize their records. She seems to have gotten a voice coach. You shoud see it. The public bar is set much lower for Palin then Bachmann, that it will be real easy for Palin to jump over if she sounds reasonable in a debate/

113 We tried, but it's impossible to make a vanilla ice cream so pure as to capture the essence of Tim Pawlenty. The closest we got was Rick Santorum and there is no way we're putting his name on our ice cream.

114

I've been wondering if some people like Pawlenty and Bachmann are avoiding attacking Romney directly right now because they know Romney might fall apart very quickly and encourage one of the people still flirting with a run (like Perry, Palin, Ryan, Rubio, etc.) to jump in.

115 Shouldn't there BE a fight? After all, Utah Mormon Mitt Romney claims on the one hand to be against ObamaCare but he's FOR  states implementing precisely the same programs.

You do realize he is not from Utah, right?

116 "Mr. Empire of Jeff, please wait your turn to ask questions, Mr. Ace is speaking. You needn't wave that .50 caliber around any longer. As it is, we don't know if the insurance will cover the ceiling damage."

117 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at June 17, 2011 11:43 AM (9hSKh)

The motion has been seconded (and thirded).  May I hear the "ayes"?

118 Not sure. I have to confess, Michelle Bachmann was so not on my radar I didn't watch her very closely during that long, long debate.

Long long debate or tall tall glass?

MB Was a lot easier on the camera than the other candidates. I thought she was on FIRE. My only beef was she was using a lot of phraseology I expect from a person running for re-election to congress not election to the President. I sponsored *this* and I voted for *that* instead of framing her positions as I plan to do *this*, like this bill I sponsored. Or my position is *that* just like my vote on legislation. She needs to come across more as understanding that the president is a position of leadership not a vote and voice in a legislative body; and that if she wants to bring up her record as proof of her positions, state the position and her presidential intent, then the supporting action on the legislative record.

119

Geez, you're speedy!  Ok, that's two votes for EofJ.  Do I hear three?

Thirded.

 

I believe we have the necessary AoSHQuorum.  EofJ it is!

120

...

Informative? Probably not.

Entertaining? Hell yes.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life and Killer of Polar Bears at June 17, 2011 11:31 AM (OWjjx)

Why not both?

Question 1: Please answer yes or no, do you belive in man-caused global warming/climate change?
Question 2: In two minutes, explain why you belive so.

To watch the the candidates flop around on the above trying to avoid saying "yes" or "no" would be informative (of their character) and entertaining (as they gyrate).  The three minute "duh..." pause where most of them would just stand there would be priceless.

(Of course the proper answers are: "No", "Because the scientists and politicians pushing AGW are lying assholes" but no one has the balls to says so...)

121

117 We tried, but it's impossible to make a vanilla ice cream so pure as to capture the essence of Tim Pawlenty. The closest we got was Rick Santorum and there is no way we're putting his name on our ice cream.

 

 

Boring Beige . . . coming to a store near you!

122

Does a guy polling 8th out of 9 candidates need to separate himself from the other scrubs and present himself as the clear alternative to the front runner that is Romney?

I would think so if T-Paw has any desire to win.

Nope. 11th commandment and all that. Just be a better Obamunist basher.

123 ...Unh, Unh, Ungh, Mmmph, Unh, Ugngh...

124

Palin last night said they should criticize their records. She seems to have gotten a voice coach. You shoud see it. The public bar is set much lower for Palin then Bachmann, that it will be real easy for Palin to jump over if she sounds reasonable in a debate/

 

That's why they need to go to the slo-mo, Jello/bikini sudden death round...

125 I've got to disagree somewhat with ace's take on this. Everybody saw this coming for the entire 36 hour period between the "Obamneycare" comment and the debate. Further, Pawlenty is clearly coached and stage managed to a high degree, so I highly doubt that the "Obamneycare" comment was planned in advance of his interview. He was completely flat footed and unprepared to respond to a bomb that he dropped. Sure, he wouldn't want to do it on King's terms, but he failed to take control of the situation himself and sat there bumbling and blinking like Forest Gump after the most obvious set up imaginable. Sorry, all I see here is someone who is inexcusably inept, not in control of his message, and unfit to handle a debate; whether that debate is with 6 people whom he generally agrees, against Obama, or God forbid, if he were entering talks with a hostile foreign leader. Think about that- President TPaw alone in a room with someone like Putin. He'd make Obama look competent.

126 Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life and Killer of Polar Bears at June 17, 2011 11:45 AM (OWjjx)

I don't know if you'd get TPaw or Mittens, but I bet Hermann Cain, Michelle Bachman, and some of the starved-for-oxygen candidates would agree.  You could do it as a live-blog type forum: they could just Skype in from wherever.

127
Before the actual debatation begins, candidates, show us your boobies!

128 I'd drink molten lava with a broken glass chaser before voting for Nerobama, but how do you inspire fear in the opposition running guys with names like  "Newt", "Mitt" and "T-Paw"? They sound like the favorite felines of one of those cat ladies you see on "Hoarders".

129

Is it possible to get the John King grunts to play whenever a post about him is opened? 

Like those super annoying ads we used to have?

130

I would looooove to see the debate where EmpireofJeff is the moderator--Republican or Democrat, I don't care which side.  That would be so entertaining.  I'd even pay to see it!

Posted by: runningrn at June 17, 2011 11:41 AM (ihSHD)

I'd pay to host it!

131 Posted by: Moron Moderation at June 17, 2011 11:48 AM (gppu7)

In a field that contains both Ron! Paul! and Herman Cain?  No, thank you.

132 Correction: Should be: "... wasn't planned in advance of the interview" Stupid auto correct...

133 I think it's already getting too late for Palin and Perry to jump in.  They let Romney take a lead that's going to be hard to overcome.  This is especially true if they wait beyond another debate, IMHO.

Even if Perry does jump in, I don't think the country is ready for another Texan.. sounds too much like Bush at times.

Whoever mentioned Rubio.. leave him out of this.. I'm hoping he's gonna get the VP job.

134 That is right................EAST ST. LOUIS, ILLINOIS!!!!!!!! Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life and Killer of Polar Bears at June 17, 2011 11:45 AM (OWjjx) I got hit head-on by a drunk driver in East St. Louis. Not a fond memory.

135

Before the actual debatation begins, candidates, show us your boobies!

 

We will need all the men to unzip their pants and to see how their balls fit inside this puddin' cup.

Mr. Christie?  I'm sorry, you're going to have to wait for the vat.

136

My only beef was she was using a lot of phraseology I expect from a person running for re-election to congress not election to the President. I sponsored *this* and I voted for *that* instead of framing her positions as I plan to do *this*, like this bill I sponsored. Or my position is *that* just like my vote on legislation. She needs to come across more as understanding that the president is a position of leadership not a vote and voice in a legislative body; and that if she wants to bring up her record as proof of her positions, state the position and her presidential intent, then the supporting action on the legislative record.

This is why Governors tend to become Presidents, Senators not so much and Congresscritters, never so far.

137

Thought 1:  This is exactly what I thought about Pawlenty before:  Good guy, decent eye for policy, no guts.

Thought 2: In no way should should this man be in charge of a whole country like a big boy.

Thought 3: This is exactly the sort of milquetoast we're going to end up seeing run in the general against Obama.

138 I'd drink molten lava with a broken glass chaser before voting for Nerobama, but how do you inspire fear in the opposition running guys with names like  "Newt", "Mitt" and "T-Paw"? They sound like the favorite felines of one of those cat ladies you see on "Hoarders".
Posted by: Philiadelphia Collins
....
Hey, Mitt's real name is Willard.. so he's got that going for him...

139

I got hit head-on by a drunk driver in East St. Louis. Not a fond memory.

 

Lightning could strike twice if there is a high number of morons in attendance.

I'm glad you are ok!

140 116 Palin last night said they should criticize their records. She seems to have gotten a voice coach.

I love what the woman has to say, I just can't stand to listen to her.  If she could improve her voice, she could be a real contender. 

141 Ms. Palin, what is your position on the Karma Sutra, and may I touch your fine, milk-fed boobies?

This is off limits for Dems right?

142 The moron questions certainly couldn't be as bad as the blackberry/iPhone, coke/pepsi, and mild/spicy wings nonsense Mr. NoNeck was asking.

Because I know I certainly got a solid feel for the candidatess' response to questions pertaining to stimulating job growth and deficit reduction based off their one minute answers. Which fine, whatever. No one can flush out their position in that time - it's preposterous. As was the cutesy questions posited though. 

143 "Mr. Huntsman, a question regarding your service as Ambassador to China in the Obama administration. Shrimp puffs or kobe sliders? Please keep your answer no shorter than five minutes."

144 I think it's already getting too late for Palin and Perry to jump in.  They let Romney take a lead that's going to be hard to overcome.  This is especially true if they wait beyond another debate, IMHO.

Even if Perry does jump in, I don't think the country is ready for another Texan.. sounds too much like Bush at times.

Whoever mentioned Rubio.. leave him out of this.. I'm hoping he's gonna get the VP job.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at June 17, 2011 11:49 AM (f9c2L)

Your right. Frontrunners always last

145 (Of course the proper answers are: "No", "Because the scientists and politicians pushing AGW are lying assholes" but no one has the balls to says so...) "No, because I think Freeman Dyson has a liiiittle bit more knowledge than your store-bought pseudo-scientists. Also, I'm not going to raise Americans' energy prices, no matter how many complaints I get from some rich hippies who can easily afford it, unlike the people who actually work for a living. "So tell, me, Mr. King, why didn't you serve in the military? Are you a draft-dodger like the rest of the lefties? Oh, and do your post pictures of your penis online? I've heard that's the latest thing on the political left. We real Americans don't do that--normally, we're too busy working for a living. Of course, with the Obama depression, many of us have a lot more time on our hands. While you people are sexting co-eds, we're desperately seeking work. "Got a problem with my honesty? We can discuss it privately outside." He'd carry the women's vote with at least 60%.

146 >>It's generally accepted (not sure if it's been put to the test) I can't speak for all state but it was put to the test in MA. Fountas v Dormitzer. It was found to be legal.

147

Before the actual debatation begins, candidates, show us your boobies!

 

Will do!

148 As far as Palin-watching is concerned, it's easier to calculate her will she/won't she run probability by looking at what she hasn't done in the last two months.

149 If the moderator tries to shut you up, tell him, "You aren't running for President. I am. Shut up, little man." Always have scurrilous and baseless counter-accusations ready. How it could have gone: T-Paw: "You know, John King, when I was preparing for this interview I researched you quite a bit and found some pretty outrageous charges, like that you had once been involved in a male-prostitution sting." John King: "That is completely-" T-Paw: "I know! So I decided to research this and do you know what I found? Nothing. Every mention of this seems to have mysteriously disappeared from the internet. Like i Never. Even. Happened.". [Raises arched eyebrow] "Now, as regards-" John King: "Hey!" T-Paw: "John, I have a limited amount of time and I'd like to respond to your question if you don't mind. This debate isn't supposed to be about you, but about the future of America."

150 shoulda woulda coulda didn't.............

151 #150 Now we're cooking with gas.

152 Well, I really am not one to pander...

153 "Newt", "Mitt" and "T-Paw"? They sound like the favorite felines of one of those cat ladies you see on "Hoarders".

Well you could also use Mitt's other nick name Mittens.

154 As far as Palin-watching is concerned, it's easier to calculate her will she/won't she run probability by looking at what she hasn't done in the last two months.

Posted by: mrp at June 17, 2011 11:54 AM (HjPtV)

yeo

155

t paw was tpwnd

156 130 I've got to disagree somewhat with ace's take on this. Everybody saw this coming for the entire 36 hour period between the "Obamneycare" comment and the debate. Further, Pawlenty is clearly coached and stage managed to a high degree, so I highly doubt that the "Obamneycare" comment was planned in advance of his interview. He was completely flat footed and unprepared to respond to a bomb that he dropped. Sure, he wouldn't want to do it on King's terms, but he failed to take control of the situation himself and sat there bumbling and blinking like Forest Gump after the most obvious set up imaginable. Posted by: Damiano at June 17, 2011 11:47 AM (3nrx7) Absolutely right. "ObamneyCare" isn't a spur-of-the-moment, one-time usage. If Pawlenty wasn't planning to make that front and center in his campaign, he shouldn't have said it at all. Having said it, he should have RELISHED the opportunity to hit Romney with it in person, in hopes of forcing Romney off his game as well as looking ballsy enough to take Romney on (a prerequisite to being seen as ballsy enough to take on Obama). The mere fact that he physically shrank from King's question was a huge strike against him.

157 The key won't be if Pawlenty alone goes after Romney, but if they all start to attack Romney on the same points. If so, Romney will appear to be the 'Giuliani' in the race (good for New York or Massachusetts but not conservative enough for the general) and his support should fall apart quickly.

158 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 17, 2011 11:55 AM (lbo6/)

See?  This is why I want EoJ as the moderator for the Inaugural AoSHQ Republican Presidential Debate and Hobo Hunt.

159 I would like a GOP field with names like "Crusher," "Ballpeen the Hammer," "Debbie does Double-D," and "Brian Dennehy: The Asteroid."

160 Ace - Wally was The Beaver's older brother.. friends with Eddie Haskell.

And I wouldn't compare T-Paw with Eddie Haskell.  Eddie was a bullshitter and brown noser.  T-Paw is just nuthin.

161 I really would like to hear a Republican sounding like a man for once. I heard people talking about Bush II being macho, but he didn't seem that way to me. He practically apologized for not ramrodding the AWB through the Congress in 2004. Yeah, he had a lot of footage of him clearing sagebrush. BFD. I'd rather have footage of him getting in someone's face. One reason I don't like Sean Hannity is that he let himself get punked by Al Franken. He even seemed to think his audience would empathize. We don't. If Franken ever gets within three feet of me, he's going down. PERIOD.

162 See? This is why I want EoJ as the moderator for the Inaugural AoSHQ Republican Presidential Debate and Hobo Hunt. Gotta do the Hobo Hunt last because everyone will be tuckered out from all the food after a Hunt.

163 Lightning could strike twice if there is a high number of morons in attendance. I'm glad you are ok! Posted by: runningrn at June 17, 2011 11:51 AM (ihSHD) OK? It turned me into a rabid conservative who hangs out with you people! I'm WAY BETTER than OK!

164 >>> Poor Cain has reached his zenith Yup. I had hoped for more from him, but he is clearly incapable of coherent thought or spouting anything but talking points. Heck, his stock answer for everything is: "that's a State issue". Not with gun rights, Herman. Time for you to read the Constitution that you are so fond of telling everyone else to read (and that you regularly intermingle and confuse with the Declaration of Independence). Go back to your radio show, Cain. I like you, but you ain't Presidentin' material. When you can express an opinion without resorting to "I'd surround myself with good people", maybe we can look at a House or Senate seat for you.

165 You can take this as you like, of course, but I never took it as the "wimp" thing.

Agree.  But gots to have a compelling narrative!

166  I thought she was on FIRE. My only beef was she was using a lot of phraseology I expect from a person running for re-election to congress not election to the President.

She did a lot of good for herself in that debate.  I'm still worried that she has temperament issues, but at least I am now willing to look at her more seriously.  I agree with you, though, that she sounded too much like a legislator and not enough like an executive.  I think she maybe felt she had to do it because she feels she doesn't have enough name recognition outside the TP (which is probably also why she did her own rebuttal and why she was, as I recall, fighting for some leadership position (?)).  So maybe she gets a pass this time on doing so much of the "I sponsored this, I did that" this time.  But moving forward, she should just get to the point of what she'll do as chief executive and leave the background for her publicity/marketing team. 

--
MB Was a lot easier on the camera than the other candidates.

Mitt looked awful.  Tired and wan.  The light blue tie was not a good choice for him. 

Bachmann looked good (nice outfit), but I thought she had too much makeup on.  The foundation looked a little plastered on.  She is an older woman and so it's harder  to get the right balance of foundation and natural look, but to me she was bordering on wax figurine. 

167 The states already have mandates like forcing you to purchase auto insurance.. quite legal.


Texas  requires proof of financial responsibility. Insurance is just the easy way to do that.

168 She is an older woman and so it's harder to get the right balance of foundation and natural look, but to me she was bordering on wax figurine. Bigot.

169 OT:  They need to clear the courtroom and close the proceedings to the public in that Casey Whatsherface trial.

170 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 17, 2011 11:55 AM (lbo6/)

Exactly!  That is what I would call an "effective media management strategy".  The media has decided that scurrilous accusations and innuendo are fair game, well they should be put on notice that that street runs in two directions.

171 166 I really would like to hear a Republican sounding like a man for once.

Me too.  Even if it's a woman.

172
Gotta do the Hobo Hunt last because everyone will be tuckered out from all the food after a Hunt.

And that way the audience has their spears and longbows ready to go, and are itching for action. A sure formula for a more lively debate.

173 I think one of the ground rules for the AoSHQ Republican Presidential Debate should be all candidates have to do shots periodically.  Each one can pick hjs own poison.  I would be highly disappointed if Palin didn't choose Yukon Jack.  (She shoul.d be invited whether she declares or not.)

174 I'm trying to visualize Jerry Springer moderating a GOP debate. Might even be entertaining.

175 169: It's sad, because I like him. Unfortunately, he seems to be running as The Black Conservative instead of as a candidate familiar with the issues.

176

#154 That's awesome. I'd love to see someone with nothing to lose try that approach.

As for Pawlenty, he was done before he even started. The RINOs like to talk him up but I don't think he's ever pulled more than 5% in any poll I've seen. He ain't going anywhere but home.

177 Ken,

You are a Great American®.  Next on Hannity, Bob Beckel puts me in a dress and pimps me out on my own show.

178 178: the best part is that Romney and Huntsman would both have to decline on religious grounds. Win win!

179 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 17, 2011 11:55 AM (lbo6/)

Heh.

Robin Williams repeats a story about LBJ when he was running in Texas. LBJ instructed his campaign manager to leak to the press that his opponent was a chicken fucker. The campaign manager objects, saying that just wasn't true. LBJ chuckles and says "I know. I just want to see him go on TV and deny it."

May or may not be a true story, but I likes it anyway. 

180

None of the other candidates went after Mittens. they were all mostly cardboard cut-outs.  Great for Mitt, suicidal for the others.

Stupid Party showcase.

181

The problem with all this about 'sounding' populist and strong is that the risks are just as high as the rewards. For every bounce people get for not 'sounding like a politician', there are countless examples of ridiculous gaffes (or seemingly resonable but not narrative approved statements) which the same public uses as an excuse to vote for the other guy.

You can dream about how you would want a candidate to act, but the truth is that 18 months of that would result in a losing candidate.

182 I think one of the ground rules for the AoSHQ Republican Presidential Debate should be all candidates have to do shots periodically. Each one can pick hjs own poison. Mitt Romney: Corn Sour Mash Tim Pawlenty: Malibu Herman Cain: Sambuca from a pizza plate Michelle Bachmann: Everclear and green tea Newt Gingrich: old French Bas-Armagnac from a snifter Gary Johnson: infusion of Marin County's best chronic

183 178 I think one of the ground rules for the AoSHQ Republican Presidential Debate should be all candidates have to do shots periodically.  Each one can pick hjs own poison.

I choose tokes from my bong.

184 The states already have mandates like forcing you to purchase auto insurance.. quite legal

Actually that is NOT true. The States do not force you to buy auto insurance. You do not have to buy auto insurance unless you have a vehicle that you wish to drive on public roads.

It falls under the implied consent rule.

If you have no vehicle or even if you have one and only drive it on your own land, you are not required to have insurance.

185
164 I would like a GOP field with names like "Crusher," "Ballpeen the Hammer," "Debbie does Double-D," and "Brian Dennehy: The Asteroid."

I'd feel better with these guys as well: "Gonadculus", "Demsbane the Moderator-Slayer", "Gorgonzorro" and "Titania Titacular". Beats the ass off Newt, Willard and T-Paws.

186 I forgot Ron Paul: anything but Manischewitz

187 #188 cont'd

Ron Paul: Tequila with shrooms
Jon Huntsman:  Whole milk

188 Mitt Romney: Corn Sour Mash
Tim Pawlenty: Malibu
Herman Cain: Sambuca from a pizza plate
Michelle Bachmann: Everclear and green tea
Newt Gingrich: old French Bas-Armagnac from a snifter
Gary Johnson: infusion of Marin County's best chronic

Ron Paul: The Green Fairy Strong and Straight.

189 Mitt Romney: Corn Sour Mash Shirley Temple

fify

190 [Sigh...] Yes, Herr Doktor Paul, I see you. Quit your fucking squirming already. Do you have to piss or something? No? Then shut the fuck up while I talk to someone who might pull more than a thousand votes, jagoff.

191 Furthermore, at the AOSHQ debate, clothing is optional. Especially for female candidates.

192 Mitt Romney: Corn Sour Mash Shirley Temple

fify

Virgin Mary? _{(Which is just a spicy V8 with a stick of celery)}

193 The Great American crap irritates me too. He seems to have a very low opinion of conservatives. I realize he has to reach out to a large audience, but you don't have to dumb it down that much. Every time he throws that stupid fake football, the message I get is that conservatism consists solely of throwing footballs and presumably, watching NASCAR and barbecuing. And of course he always has some shitty country song playing somewhere. I like rednecks. But part of the reason I like rednecks is that they are way more intelligent than city boy Hannity realizes. Of course, when he got punked by Al Franken, it convinced me that his heart wasn't in it. I can't imagine any conservative who really believed in his stuff not beating the shit out of Franken if called out. Even if I thought he could beat me (hah!) I'd pick up a weapon and bash in his skull with it or something.

194 Jon Huntsman:  Whole milk

Y'know, I bet Huntsman drinks.  He's really barely a Mormon.  I think he's raising one of his kids in a different faith (adopted kid, I think).  He spends a lot of time distancing himself from the Latter Day Saints.  If he has a temple recommend, it's only because of his dad. 

I bet his a vodka guy. 

195 Not sure. I have to confess, Michelle Bachmann was so not on my radar I didn't watch her very closely during that long, long debate. So I have to defer to everyone else who did, who say she was impressive.

I didn't see the debate at all. I read the transcripts and I thought her answers were the most informed and detailed answers given. I also think she did a damn good job hitting back at that CNN idiot.

196 "I turn the floor over to our next moderator, Mr. Empire of Jeff. Candidates, you may now don your kevlar snuggies and take the iodine pills."

197 All of these clowns need to move past the applause lines. You're running for president. I expect you to have a plan outside of "Make Obama a One.Term.President!!eleventy". I hate to admit it, but Mitt was the only one who managed to do this. He attacked Obama, but did it by going after a specific target- Obama's consistent failure to lead- and cited specific instances. This is my problem with Bachmann in particular. She's dependent on Tea Party rally applause lines.

198

This is why Governors tend to become Presidents, Senators not so much and Congresscritters, never so far.

Abraham Lincoln begs to differ.

199

Go back to your radio show, Cain. I like you, but you ain't Presidentin' material yet.

Fixed it. Herman Cain rules, but he isn't ready. Start by being a congresscritter or a state official.

200 Especially for female candidates.

I have no desire to see Rick Santorum naked.  Thanks.

201 Virgin Mary? <sub>(Which is just a spicy V8 with a stick of celery)

---</sub>

Yeah, I thought of that, too, but then decided it was too Catholic-y. 

Maybe just gold old-fashioned lemonade. 

202

One skill a politician needs is the ability to be gracefully nasty. You need to deliver the blow. But you have to come across as almost saddened that you had to deliver it. Past master of the gracefully nasty attack is Barack Obama...

No way am I going to support another Barack Obama by any other name or party affiliation.

So far as I'm concerned, there's nothing more disgusting than a two-faced liar. I'll never support a President's political deception used against Americans.

I like the Fred Thompson style. He talks smarter, not harder, and he shoots straight. He bases decisions upon long term effects before establishing a Political Policy. He maintains the responsible integrity of the US Constitution, including federal observance of State's Rights, and of Civil Rights. When confronted by an idiot demanding an answer from the idiot box, rather than an answer from Thompson's platform, he smacked down the stupid moderator. Thompson struck Mitt Rockefeller exactly on target in debate, NO mandates.

I don't like authoritarian elitism. I don't base my vote on personal charm or pie in the sky promises. Romney's '12 campaign kicked off where his '08 campaign QUIT: "Promise anything. Just get their votes."

We're already over the economic cliff. And Mitt Rockefeller's only economic experience is rubbing shoulders with the specific financial globalist institutional interests ruining every nation's sovereignty via exploitation of financial FRAUD. Mitt is just a Geithner/Paulson wannabe who'd rather have the Oval Office.

Mitt never built a manufacturing company, never managed a manufacturing company, never owned such an industry, evading responsibility as such a business owner, never profitably balancing manufacturing wages (let alone benefits) for blue collar American citizens. When asked how he'd secure America's economy in debate, he demanded inflation.

I speculate that the underlying reasons that Ace has been overlooking Bachmann to date relate to her style, matter and gender.  She's a clean cut woman, polite but rapidly delivering strong rebuttals to idiocy. She's "Tea Party" and Ace isn't comfortable with that. Tea Party, what Tea Party?

203 What's all this silliness about polling?  Every poll out there has Generic Republican beating Obama.  *thumps chest* Hello....

204 Especially for female candidates. --------- I have no desire to see Rick Santorum naked. Thanks. I see what you did there. In any case, the rules for the AOSHQ debates permit the audience to wear welding goggles.

205 48 - Agree to the debate rules. And then break them.

Ken, I agree with you in principle, but I think there is a somewhat better way to do it.  The debate rules presumably talk about the amount of time for an answer, the moderator gets to ask the questions, etc.  You can honor those rules and still respond by telling the audience that the moderator has asked a moronic question that is designed to demean the candidates and therefore the Republican party, that you will not answer that particular question and that the nonsense being pulled by the moderator is unbecoming of a major network and an important campaign at a critical time in America's history.  If the candidate really wants to show some balls (and has a few seconds left), he or she can finish by saying, "In other words, eff you, next question."  That way when the moderator launches yet another bomb made to go off in the candidate's face, the response can be a simple "FYNQ" followed by a blank stare for the remainder of the thirty seconds.  If the moderator jumps in, the candidate should say "I'm not finished with my answer yet" and keep staring the moderator down.  Guaranteed to lead the evening news and go viral on the internet.  And draw favorable comparisons to the Gipper and make the vast majority of the citizenry with no respect or love for the news media cream in their pants.

206 >>> Furthermore, at the AOSHQ debate, clothing is optional. Especially for female candidates. Posting/ debating without pants is not only encouraged; it's mandatory.

207 I speculate that the underlying reasons that Ace has been overlooking Bachmann to date relate to her style, matter and gender.

I don't think it has anything to do with gender.  Style and substance (if that's what you mean by "matter"). 

208 Does anyone really expect eithe T-Paw or Willard will win their home states in a Presidential election? NO MORE ALGORES.

209

Who the heck was Wally?

That's what I liked about The Jetsons. Right there, in the opening sequence, they named the main character and three family members with their relationships to him. So the only characters you had to learn were Astro the dog, Rosie the robot maid, Mr. Spaceley the boss, Mr. Kogswell the boss at the rival company, and Henry the maintenance guy.

210

She's a clean cut woman, polite but rapidly delivering strong rebuttals to idiocy.

That's the reason she's getting a look from me.  I also like her personal story.

She's a little gaffe prone, but so far I think she's a quick learner in that department.

211 Abraham Lincoln begs to differ.

Yeah, and look at how well that turned out.

j/k sort of.  If you'd posted that at FR, you'd already have fifty comments accusing you of loving a tyrant or something.

212 Despite all the snark, these debates are a ridiculous waste of time. They just play into the MBM's rules. It's the start of a new media age. The GOP ought to take advantage of this and make some of their own rules and venues.

213 210 48 - Agree to the debate rules. And then break them.

Ken, I agree with you in principle, but I think there is a somewhat better way to do it.
-----
That's sort of what Mitt did.  He was really pushy with the time limits and, gauging by the comments on that debate thread, I think that worked for a lot of people.  (I kind of don't like it, but I'm a rules-meister in my own life so I tend to not respond to that.)

214

Posting/ debating without pants is not only encouraged; it's mandatory.

Haven't we seen enough political "junk" for the year already?

215 210: that might work. The bottom line, though, is that the debate rules don't matter. If you break them, no one will care.

216 203 This is why Governors tend to become Presidents, Senators not so much and Congresscritters, never so far. Abraham Lincoln begs to differ. Posted by: Hollowpoint at June 17, 2011 12:15 PM (SY2Kh) Lincoln was a special case at an odd time in history (new party, cusp of the Civil War).

217 Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 17, 2011 12:15 PM

Likely so. But having Cain in this primary is good, not just providing him with political debate experience and national recognition, but providing his concerns a voice in the nation's GOP primary dialogue, particularly voicing REAL business concerns against Obama's administration.

218 [Standing up with my hands in my pockets] Jeff: "Okay, Doktor Paul. Here's your question: Left Pocket or Right Pocket?" Ron Paul: "What does that even m-" Jeff: "LEFT. POCKET! OR! RIGHT. POCKET!" Ron Paul: "Uhh... Right Pocket?" Jeff: "Correct, Congressman! The answer was 'Fuck Off'. Hit the gong, Orwell. Time to send this dipshit back to the sanitarium."

219 "Candidates, in case you didn't understand Mr. Ace's question, Mr. Vic will translate from the Ewok into English. One moment... ...Mr. Vic says the question was "You are all stinking RINOS."

220

Posted by: George Orwell, debate moderator at June 17, 2011 12:22 PM (AZGON)

Are we going to start the "purity" thread again?

Please...no....anything but the purity thread....

221 j/k sort of. If you'd posted that at FR, you'd already have fifty comments accusing you of loving a tyrant or something. I got banned from FR in 2003 because Jim Robinson was putting out The Word that we would support Bush's promise to sign the renewal of "assault weapons ban" because the Most Important Issue was the war and yada yada yada. I pointed out that if he did sign it, he'd lose reelection, so he banned me. Jim Robinson is totally committed to the cause of freedom, unless you buy him off.

222

I speculate that the underlying reasons that Ace has been overlooking Bachmann to date relate to her style, matter and gender.  She's a clean cut woman, polite but rapidly delivering strong rebuttals to idiocy. She's "Tea Party" and Ace isn't comfortable with that. Tea Party, what Tea Party?

Right- the only reason she's been overlooked is because we all have a deep seated fear and hatred of the Tea Party and vagina.

That she's only a House rep with a history of foot-in-mouth disease and little in the way of accomplishment in her legislative record has nothing at all to do with it.

She did well in the debate and got a lot of recognition for it, but let's not pretend she's the perfect candidate that we've been ignoring out of ignorance and prejudice.

 

223

There's no damn way Mittens would drink a spicy V-8 drink.

I mean, you could get an upset stomach from that!

224 ...Mr. Vic says the question was "You are all stinking RINOS."

Slices like a hammer?

Slices like a hammer AND makes mounds of coleslaw.

225 "Now we will discuss economic issues, candidates. First, you may use the moist towelettes provided to wipe off the urine after the traditional opening Shower of the Moderators."

226 Are we going to start the "purity" thread again? Please...no....anything but the purity thread.... I keed, I keed. Because I love.

227 Posted by: Hollowpoint at June 17, 2011 12:24 PM

I hate my vaj jay jay. 

228 Oh, another thing about Free Republic: they have no means of accessing archives. I'm pretty sure the reason is that almost all regular posters from more than a few years back have been banned for not accommodating Jim Robinson's hissy fits. And I literally mean almost all.

229 "First, you may use the moist towelettes provided to wipe off the urine after the traditional opening Shower of the Moderators."

"Yes, Representative Paul, you must use the towelettes.  No, Mr. Santorum, you should not eat the towelettes after use."

230 Jeff: "Correct, Congressman! The answer was 'Fuck Off'. Hit the gong, Orwell. Time to send this dipshit back to the sanitarium."

Posted by: Empire of Jeff, moderator at June 17, 2011 12:21 PM (lbo6/)

That's an idea!  Run the debate like "The Gong Show".  Have a big ass gong in the studio that anybody in the audience can run up and hit to shut up whatever candidate is speaking.

231 Lincoln was a special case at an odd time in history...

That brings to mind how every moment, once expired, becomes an odd time in history.

During our first 175 years as a nation, there was no cookie-cutter potus mold limiting our American choice in leadership.

That the Ivy League managed to brow beat Americans into worshiping alumni and Socialism doesn't mean we're stuck forever to CHOOSE to serve as dhimmis to another authoritarian elitist puppet in the White House. Let the 21st Century overcome 20th Century deceptions.

232 Ken -

I agree that no one will care if you break the debate rules.  However, some people (myself included) will be unimpressed if you break them repeatedly solely to gain advantage over the other candidates (e.g., if you constantly talk over their statements).  I think you get a lot more points with the voters if you call out the moderator's idiocy, bias and general malarkey.  If you do that with style and wit, then for the rest of the debate, every time the moderator asks a lame question, people will be remembering your excellent response and comparing you favorably against the other candidates, who will either not be doing what you did or doing it on what is seen as a "me too" basis.  And if you do it in a memorable, untoppable manner ("FYNQ", anyone?) you win the news cycle and maybe set one of the topics for the next debate.

233

Yeah, and look at how well that turned out.

j/k sort of.  If you'd posted that at FR, you'd already have fifty comments accusing you of loving a tyrant or something.

Yeah; as a Minnesotan I do enjoy tweaking southerners by proclaiming Lincoln as one of the greatest Presidents ever for preserving the union and winning the Civil War, which was fought solely over slavery.

234 the only thing missing from the last debate was the rubber chicken

235 I just think the audience watching the debate (other than the Dems who are watching for ammunition) get pissed off at the moderators and (if they are like me) shout at the television about what anuses they are.  Saying out loud and forcefully what the audience at home is thinking could be powerful.

236 Run the debate like "The Gong Show". Have a big ass gong in the studio that anybody in the audience can run up and hit to shut up whatever candidate is speaking. Yes, and the guy banging the gong must be oiled up and wear a diaper, like in the old film credits at the start of a Rank Organisation movie. I'm starting to think the AOSHQ debates could be pitched to the networks as a reality show. "Deadliest Smack." Or "Pwned Stars."

237 the only thing missing from the last debate was the rubber chicken

I was actually waiting on the live gay sex demonstration during the HALF HOUR DEVOTED TO DON'T ASK DON'T TELL and King's question to be "Hot or not, Governor Romney?"

238

That's what I liked about The Jetsons. Right there, in the opening sequence, they named the main character and three family members with their relationships to him. So the only characters you had to learn were Astro the dog, Rosie the robot maid, Mr. Spaceley the boss, Mr. Kogswell the boss at the rival company, and Henry the maintenance guy.

Posted by: FireHorse at June 17, 2011 12:18 PM (peN5l)

No love for Uniblab?

"Planet Poker.  Planet Poker.  Place your bets.  Place your bets."

239 My concern about Pawlenty is that the reason he didn't go after Romney is that he doesn't like confrontation.  I am wondering if this is also why he didn't run for another term in Minnesota.

I could be all wet, but Pawlenty seems like a very nice man and mild-mannered,  and sometimes the reason people are like that is that they dislike public confrontation.  This is only my conjecture and since I have no knowledge of him in Minnesota,   I could be all wet.

If I am right,  however,  this is a serious flaw in a candidate for the presidency.

240 238: I don't disagree about the importance of what Lincoln did. The Southerners do gloss over the fact that they were, in fact, fighting for slavery. BUT... The fact is that Lincoln did do a lot of unconstitutional stuff. For instance, he disarmed the city of Boston, which, in case you weren't aware, was not in rebellion. At some point Northerners will have to come to terms with his excesses--because we cannot let them happen again--and the Southerners will have to come to terms with the fact that if they'd won, black people would still be chattel today.

241 Hollowpoint at June 17, 2011 12:24 PM

Ha! Getting hot under the collar? I didn't say she's MY choice. And don't play coy as if sexism isn't part and parcel here, all in good fun, of course.

I did say that Ace isn't comfortable with the Tea Party, or with "respectable" clean cut conservative Christian married women, in or out of politics. I never said that Ace couldn't get comfortable with either.

And it was Ace who said that style matters more than substance, which is not so for me.

242 I was actually waiting on the live gay sex demonstration during the HALF HOUR DEVOTED TO DON'T ASK DON'T TELL and King's question to be "Hot or not, Governor Romney?" ROTFL ...although you point out succinctly why these debates are so foooking stooopid. It's as plain as the pimple on your nose. MFM wants to spend hours on divisive "social" issues to mock the GOP as irrelevant prudes. How could they spend half an hour on DADT? How? To what logical end? Only to frame the GOP as cartoons.

243 238

Yeah, and look at how well that turned out.

j/k sort of.  If you'd posted that at FR, you'd already have fifty comments accusing you of loving a tyrant or something.

Yeah; as a Minnesotan I do enjoy tweaking southerners by proclaiming Lincoln as one of the greatest Presidents ever for preserving the union and winning the Civil War, which was fought solely over slavery.

 

I just tote it up to electing any pol from Illinois as President. Remember, before his election there was no war or no secession. Good job Abe - fix what you broke at a cost of 630K lives. Great man. I hear Bismark was a pussy compared to Abe.

244 I'm starting to think the AOSHQ debates could be pitched to the networks as a reality show.

"Deadliest Smack." Or "Pwned Stars."

Posted by: George Orwell, debate moderator at June 17, 2011 12:31 PM (AZGON)

How's this for the business case:

1) Have candidates debate in a forum with rules cribbed from an old Chuck Barris TV game show...
2) ?
3) Profit!

245 And don't play coy as if sexism isn't part and parcel here, all in good fun, of course.

I speculate that the underlying reasons that Ace has been overlooking Bachmann to date relate to her style, matter and gender.

It's pretty clear that you attribute sexist reasoning to ace, not just to the commenters playing around with it. 

I haven't seen it.  Are you reading the same blog? 

246 1) Have candidates debate in a forum with rules cribbed from an old Chuck Barris TV game show... 2) ? 3) Profit! SOLD.

247 Something for you to think about, Hollowpoint: if the South had not had slavery, and had seceded in protest against protective tariffs, and if Lincoln had fought a bloody war costing hundreds of thousands of lives in order to keep protective tariffs, would he still have been a great President?

248 I don't think it has anything to do with gender.

But of course that would be the spontaneous defensive posture. And yes, I put the charge out there for discussion, leaving an open mind stating "speculation".

Sorry to say, but over the years, female politicians aren't the ones generally given representational coverage here. And if honesty matters (rather than the profession preferring deceit as he stated above) feels more comfortable with men in charge. Nothing new about that sentiment. But for representing a post-modern male, the more things change the more they stay the same.

It isn't as if anyone's perfect. And it certainly isn't as if recognizing that means there's some sort of line delineating between love vs. hate per personality as we read so frequently from comments.

Ace has an open mind, and said that he's looking at Bachmann afresh.

Given: no intelligent voter selects on the basis of gender, race, ...

249 The fact that T-Paw is a total puss is the least of the issues we should be concerned about with him

250 "Something for you to think about, Hollowpoint: if the South had not had slavery, and had seceded in protest against protective tariffs, and if Lincoln had fought a bloody war costing hundreds of thousands of lives in order to keep protective tariffs..."

Ha hem. Get off my lawn, sonny.

251 Yes, because I don't love Sarah Palin, I also don't love the obvious proxies for her that her more devoted followers insist upon. Christine O'Donnell was a Sarah Palin Test Run (not that anyone wishes to discusss the results of this test any further). It's a weird thing, they look for superficial Sarah Palin clones, and when I'm not super on-board with either the original or the clone, they say I'm anti-woman. No, it's more that you're just looking for clones, because you have such an overpowering desire that Sarah should run, you'll take a close substitute, and I'm not down with Clone Wars. It's actually the Sarah 4 Ever crowd, seizing upon one FEMALE clone after another as an attempt to clone palin, who is putting emphasis on gender. I think Bachmann is meh. She happens to have been a backbencher until recently with absolutely no executive experience at all, apart from running a small 3-4 person law office, but she MUST be the best candidate, of course, because she's a little like Sarah Palin.

252 I shouldn't bother, since I'm so late to the party, but I'd like to point out no state can make you buy car insurance if you don't have a car.  Not really analogous to healthcare unless you've figured out astral projection.  Now back to the cavilling.

253

When auditioning for vice Pres. pawlenty thinks won must kiss the Kings ass.

 

Alas he has to first pry the Establishmentarians:

 Rove, sauerKraut, Kristol, and most of Faux News off the ass so as to be next in line to kiss him some.

254 @253
I think Palin gets plenty of coverage for a private citizen outside of an election cycle. 

And I resent the implication that my statement was reflexive.  I suspect I have more first-hand experience detecting (and dealing with) sexism than you do.  I simply do not detect it in ace.  I see it in some of the commenters, but not him. 

255 Am I the only one who was a little creeped out when Christine O'Donnell began wearing her hair like Palin and wearing palin-like glasses which, based on every single other appearance, she doesn't even need? Am I the only one who was creeped out by the fact she wasn't criticized for this, but actually seemed rewarded? Am I the only one creeped out by the endless search for people who vaguely look and speak like Palin? And then, being creeped out by this Clone War nonsense, I get branded anti-woman because I'm not on Team Latest Clone?

256 So there you go. I am creeped out by this phenomenon. I find it creepy. I find it weird. I find it cultish and bizarre. Pardon me for not jumping on board with the latest Palin Version 2.2 or whatever we're up to now. I specifically decline your invitation to join your side in the Clone Wars.

257 I think this is all the same as ObamaMania. And the latest new wrinkle in the right's obamamania is finding Obama-clones upon losing confidence that Obama will actually run. It's like Obama didn't run, so we immediately jump to Devall Patrick. Because -- sort of looks the same. Says the same Axelrod lines. And that's why Michelle Bachmann is not on my radar. Because the people who immediately jump to her are doing so for reasons I find bizarre. If we can't have Palin, we'll get another Tea Party-talkin' brunette of approximately the same age and ballpark the same looks who also speaks with an Upper Midwest accent. But of course, I am the one who has superficial reasons for my thinking.

258

Ace - we talk a lot about "preisdential hair" for male candidates.  It's a similar trying-to-fit-a-mold.  You creeped out by that, too?

On the original topic, Pawlenty isn't happening.  You know it, I know it, dogs know it.

259

"If we can't have Palin, we'll get another Tea Party-talkin' brunette of approximately the same age and ballpark the same looks who also speaks with an Upper Midwest accent.

But of course, I am the one who has superficial reasons for my thinking."

In addition to having boobs and a kinda similar accent (although MB's voice is deeper, more controlled), they also have a similar ideological appeal.  Yes, your thinking here is very superficial.

260 I have never seen people respond to lookalikes before. That is a whole new level of superficial weird. This isn't about politics. It's about one thing and one thing only: the endless quest for personal vindication for Sarah Palin. Some of us are motivated by saving the country, others are only motivated by vindicating a single person's reputation and regard.

261 >>>In addition to having boobs and a kinda similar accent (although MB's voice is deeper, more controlled), they also have a similar ideological appeal Just like Christine O'Donnell. I find it strange that the same people who push Palin for her (limited) gubernatorial experience have no problems at all immediately shifting to Team No Executive Experience whatsoever. It's almost like the reasons offered for Palin aren't the real reasons at all.

262

On the Palin tip, you are now pretty much constantly accusing her supporters of offering fake reasons for their support, while (you assert) the real underlying reason is class resentment or personal identification with her or whatever.

When they respond in kind, saying that your criticism of her (and Bachmann now too I guess?) is coming from sexism rather than ideological or even just strategic disagreements, it pisses you off.  But it's just doing what you're doing to them in reverse.

263 Uh, uh, you guys don't get it.  I was expecting T-Paw to play nice and punt that question.  My intention was to get Mitt to call him a p*ssy on camera.

264

"It's almost like the reasons offered for Palin aren't the real reasons at all."

The reasons offered for *and against* her are less aligned with the real reasons than they are for most politicians, I'll grant you that.

265 >>>On the Palin tip, you are now pretty much constantly accusing her supporters of offering fake reasons for their support, while (you assert) the real underlying reason is class resentment or personal identification with her or whatever. >>>When they respond in kind, Just highlighting this last dumbness. When they respond in kind? Dude I've been getting the "You hate women" thing for a year now. Before Christine O'Donnell or Bachmann. When they RESPOND in kind? Cult. Where no one is permitted to disagree for legitimate reasons; any disagreement must be due to Thetans or Satan's brain gremlins.

266 or of course the "Beltway Cocktail circuit."

267 Christine O'Donnell was a Sarah Palin Test Run No, actually Mike Castle was a David Frum Test Run who got beat by Christine O'Donnell, the other person on the GOP ballot.

268 I'm not even permitted to say she quit the governorship. The moment I say that, I am told "Oh there you go with your LIBERAL TALKING POINTS again... all of this has been well-refuted... Catch up." Oh oh okay. Okay. I didn't realize it was "well-refuted" or facts were now "LIBERAL TALKING POINTS." Whatevs. Point is, I began skeptical to Palin but have become antagonistic towards her based less upon her and based more upon her supporters' behavior.

269

"Cult."

You callin me part of that cult?  I'm for Palin if she's in, but I'm also even more of a squish than you are, so I have to say, I take internet-offense at that.  I'm trying to be objective here in noting that you aren't (objective, that is) when it comes to her, that you give as good as you get on this, and that -- as a regular, not to say obsessive, reader of this blog and your posts/comments in particular, although I don't comment that often -- it is not as simple as "well they started it!"

There are legitimate reasons to disagree with a Palin booster, of course.  Although I'd like her to run I am not one who denies that there are huge question marks hanging over her abilities.  Those who are in neither the pro- nor anti-Palin cults -- and (despite my "RINOs for Palin shtick) I like to think that fits me -- can see that those two cults are converging like the proverbial two scorpions in a bottle.

270 But yeah, now that I think about it: No woman has ever run for president, as a nominee. There was debate over whether this was possible, when Hillary ran in 2008. Apparently a lot of people decided maybe it wasn't. But yeah, let's just take more chances here. Let's just try to put ourselves in as bad a position as possible, because apparently we're so far ahead in this thing we can afford to be a little risky.

271 The problem I see Ace is not that Bachmann is such a clone of Palin because Palin really isn't a Tea Party candidate, although she does push hard core conservatives like Nikki Haley here.

The problem I see is where are the damn male Tea Party spouting candidates?  The closest thing we have right now is Ron Paul and he has shit the foreign policy bed so bad he doesn't have a chance.

The next closest is Santorum whose record on small government is mixed and who supported snarlin Arlin and pissed off the base.

Some of us want a small government Tea Party type candidate and T-Paw and Romney do not fit that mold at all.

272 >>>You callin me part of that cult? I don't know, are you admitting that such a thing exists? Yes, I find it creepy that Christine O'Donnell dressed up like Sarah Palin as if she were starring in one of those Roommate Goes Crazy And Tries To Substitute For You movies. I find it weird that she thought this would work. I find it alarming that apparently it did, at least to some extent. I find it strange that it just so happens that as we wait for Palin to enter the race (or not enter it, which I think is a bit more likely, 65/35), the people talking up Palin now are talking up someone who, coincidentally I'm sure, looks and sounds like Palin. Yeah, I think this is cultish. I do not think this has anything to do with politics or ideology. I think it's a Cult of Personality.

273

"or of course the "Beltway Cocktail circuit."

Yeah, no, that's dumb, and I'd be pissed too if people kept throwing that at me.

"I'm not even permitted to say she quit the governorship."

Again, yeah, the response the Cult gives on this is rabid.  It's obviously a big problem, I just disagree on whether it's one she can overcome.

"Point is, I began skeptical to Palin but have become antagonistic towards her based less upon her and based more upon her supporters' behavior."

THERE we go.  See, since your opposition is not fully based upon her, it is in fact the case that your stated reasons are not telling the whole story.  It's just that instead of sexism , it's RINO elit -- no, I kid, it's antipathy to her Brigades.  But the point still remains that What We Talk About When We Talk About Palin, pro **or con**, is actually talk about other stuff to a grater degree than with many other candidates.

I look at history and think this is a sign that she just might be able to pull this off, for reasons I can expand on.  You look at the same history and the same current facts and think it means Certain Goldwater Death.  If she runs, we'll see who's right. 

274 Ace, as a person who provisionally supports Perry, let me try to explain it for you. Palin was a pretty good VP choice, although one no one had ever heard of before. Within hours of her choice, the Hate Brigades were literally calling for her assassination. The reaction of the GOP establishment was to make Palin into a sort of self-explanatory insult. Why do they hate Palin? Because she's Palin, of course. Most of us saw Palin as someone pretty much like we'd be if we got into politics. So when people automatically hated her, and gave no explanation, we were forced to conclude that it was a hatred for us as well. What pissed us off even more than the Daily Kos/Andrew Sullivan crap was the Republicans who jumped on the hate bandwagon. Why shouldn't we support Palin? Because she's Palin, of course. Since that's not any kind of explanation, the real reason had to be what they weren't saying: that they hated us and everything we stood for, and that Palin was just a symbol of us. Since these people were claiming to represent us, they were basically revealing themselves as confidence men, who took our money and betrayed us. If you don't like Palin, fine. Give a convincing reason.

275

"I don't know, are you admitting that such a thing exists?"

Of course!  But I could secretly be in the Cult and just feigning objectivity ...

"No woman has ever run for president, as a nominee."

Another Rorscharch-blot aspect of this.  It's a reasonable fear, I sometimes sahre it, to think that the first-woman angle will work against Palin rather than for her.  Blacks turned out in record numbers and voted for Obama at probably like a 98% rate.  Women, OTOH, may do a crabs-in-a-bucket move and Nominee Palin might actually do far worse with women than male Republican nominees have.

All these things are possible.  I'm simply looking at the options we have and saying I think Palin might -- MIGHT -- be the move.

276 Brigades or not, I don't see how someone who quit her last elected office, has a 64% Would Not Vote For Under Any Circumstances score, and who has a reputation for scatter-brainedness and who has not taken a serious, sustained effort to reverse that, can possibly win. And yeah, I think when we cut past the bullshit, the reason these empirical facts are dismissed so blithely is the idea in some people's heads that this is Foreordained. And so we don't have to worry about facts, because there is a Plan.

277 "If you don't like Palin, fine. Give a convincing reason" Just did, always do, always say the same basic things. I'm told this has all be "debunked" and that they are "LIBERAL TALKING POINTS." So I do tell people. I tell them all the time. They think that this has been "debunked," however, and that I should "Catch up."

278 Southerners will have to come to terms with the fact that if they'd won, black people would still be chattel today.

Posted by: Ken at June 17, 2011 12:34 PM (JYADs)

There was far more to this conflict than slavery, but slavery was very hard to defend as an institution so it became the  " raison d’être" for the North.  For a variety of practical, economic, and moral reasons, slavery was going to be relegated to the dustbin of history in the Western world (not so much in the Caliphate though), and this could have been done much more effectively by other means than the one chosen by Lincoln.

279

Ken sez:

"Since that's not any kind of explanation, the real reason had to be what they weren't saying: that they hated us and everything we stood for, and that Palin was just a symbol of us."

This is exactly what Ace is talking about, this whole Palin thing is only tangentially about her and is actually about the various regional, class, cultural and ideological fissures in the Republican coalition.  He thinks this means she's Bad News Drama.  I caution him that if Palin is kryptonite to his side of some of those divides, Romney -- whom he's giving an official "Second look" per a post yesterday or the day before -- might be the same in reverse.

Perry-as-deus-ex-machina?  Mayb.e

280 I got the same faith-based arguments with Christine O'Donnell, though, again, no one wants to talk about that anymore. But yeah, there was a time, when it was postulated the "Most unapologetically conservative candidate WILL always win, always does," no matter what the data say, and when I was told that everything bad about Christine O'Donnell was "LIBERAL MEDIA TALKING POINTS" (wasn't -- was based on my own experience watching her and deciding she was a blitehring idiot), and etc., and etc. But we are now in a post-empirical sort of regime, where assertions are never examined for accuracy, where predictions are never tallied up and assigned a "correct" or "incorrect" score, etc. Same stuff, all over again. Doesn't matter. We'll just saying this dumb shit over and over. Gotta be right ONE of these times, right?

281 Yes, Ken, as Knemmon says, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm looking to elect a president; you are looking for cultural/class validation. And the thing is, you won't even admit that sometimes you might have to choose between these things. You will keep insisting that you can pursue both goals without sacrificing either. In fact, you will probably next tell me they ARE the same goal.

282

"64% Would Not Vote For Under Any Circumstances score"

Remind me again what the provenance of that number is and how recent it is.  I'm not asking this as some argumentative chess move, I just see you say this a lot and would like to nail it down.

"who has not taken a serious, sustained effort to reverse that"

And this goes back to an Epic Palin Thread from a few months ago, where unseen kept saying stuff like "Well the TLC show was well-received" and you were all "You have GOT to be fucking kiddin gme with this shit."  You want to see her mixing it up with David Gregory or whomever.  I don't see the need for or utility of that.  If she gets in and makes a good showing and wins the nomination I submit it will only be because she has, in fact, reversed it.  If not, not.

At the risk of provoking Ewok Fury: what you really fear is that in a split field a plurality of the party, or rather those voting in the primaries, are so suceptible to this resentment thing that bugs you that they'll hand her a narrow nomination even though she is actually dumb/unserious/whatever.  You don't trust The Base, basically.  And you might have good reasons not to do so -- but it's an awkward position to be in.

You're not Frum-like on your *positions,* but on this one particular point you do start to give off a sense of being embarassed by Those What Brung You. 

283 Eddie Haskell never got caught because he only talked others into doing wrong.  And when the spit hit the fan, he was never around.

284

one 'm' in my name. I've been telling you this for 6 years now.  Granted, it's a fake name, and a particularly weird/hard to spell one, and I go months at a time without commenting, and should be grateful you're bothering to discuss this with me at all. 

Still.  Knemon, rhymes with "gay bone," NTTAWWT.

285

Pawlenty absolutely should have seen that coming and been prepared.  I've said I thought an unofficial "truce" was in effect for the first debate in order to look unified v. Barky, but if that was the case, Pawlenty's people should have carved him out some exception since it was 100% certain that "ObamneyCare" would come up.  Team Mitt was loving watching him squirm and backpedal, I'm sure.

I saw Bachmann as an outlier because a) she's a legislator in a year when the base is howling for exec experience b) little name recognition outside the Right c) as the only declared "Tea Party" candidate, she would be marginalized by both the media and the "establishment" GOP - a likely VP  pushing issue recognition in the platform rather than a President.  Plus I thought the Ed Rollins/Palin flap would kill her with her own base.  I've been proven mostly wrong to date and I'm glad to be wrong on this.  I'll still put my money on her being a VP and/or a candidate who pushes the eventual nominee to the Right, but I'm only 60/40 sure instead of 80/20.  The early primaries, OFC, will tell the tale.

286

O'Donnell's not a blithering idiot, Ace.  Same as how Obama's not dumb (ducking the objects which would surely be thrown if anyone were still reading this thread).  The problem with O'D, or with Palin, isn't about whether they're smart or dumb.  It might be about how "serious" they are but that's not the same thing.  Above a certain threshold a politician's intelligence in like just the raw IQ sense isn't just irrelevant to performance, it might be somehwat negatively correlated.

Some of our smartest Presidents hav also been some of our worst.

287 And the thing is, you won't even admit that sometimes you might have to choose between these things. Geez, Ace, I said I support someone else for President. What more do you want? You've said that we'll have to come to terms with the 64% who won't vote for her. Fine. Then come to terms with at least 40% of the GOP who will not tolerate a personal campaign against her. I think that a non-Palin candidate can win--but he'd better be willing to pucker up for her supporters. As you like to say to her supporters, you may not like the facts. But you have to accept them. You will lose if you run as the anti-Palin.

288 >>>At the risk of provoking Ewok Fury: what you really fear is that in a split field a plurality of the party, or rather those voting in the primaries, are so suceptible to this resentment thing that bugs you that they'll hand her a narrow nomination even though she is actually dumb/unserious/whatever. You don't trust The Base, basically. And you might have good reasons not to do so -- but it's an awkward position to be in. In this case? No, I don't. I believe 40% of the base is currently in Avenging Cultural Resentments mode. Here's my top three for a candidate: 1. Can he win? 2. Is he a broadly acceptable conservative that appeals to all four quadrants of the party enough to have most of them in the election? 3. Are his politics fairly conservative, even in areas I don't want them to be (i.e., abortion)? I'm always for the pro-life candidate, because I believe that is critical to the coaltion. Note: I SPECFICALLY VOTE AGAINST MY OWN PREFERENCES HERE, because I subordinate them to my greater preferences. Here are the top priorities for 40% of the base: 1. We must let the swells and the establishment know WE ARE IN CHARGE NOW, and we're better. 2. We must achieve vindication for Sarah Palin, who stands in for us as a culturally-wronged member of our class made by the swells to feel inadequate. I don't even mind those goals. What i mind like the Devil is elevating those goals to anything higher than 8 and 9.

289 And it is an awkward position. At first I was very careful about trying to warn people about pursuing some kind of cultural-vengeance goal at the expense of the important stuff. But I think this is too important. If you set out to win the presidency AND score some cultural vengeance -- well, I think you'll wind up accomplishing neither. I think you'll lose the presidency, and wind up looking like the unthinking fools the media says you are, because you simply were not able to THINK clearly on what your actual goals were supposed to be.

290 >>>O'Donnell's not a blithering idiot, Ace. She is, and she is furthermore, not serious. Her "job" to the extent she had one was as the guest of last resort on mid-morning no-one-watching cable-news whenever they had a fluffy topic about sex and needed someone to say goofy shit on the right.

291

"If you set out to win the presidency AND score some cultural vengeance -- well, I think you'll wind up accomplishing neither."

Narratives of cultural vengeance, when skillfully deployed, have worked like gangbusters for both parties in the past.  68 and 72; 92 and 08 to some extent.

You see it as just like obvious fact that she can't (or is prohibitively unlikely to) win.  But your particular beef with Palin('s Cult) is, I submit, blinding you to the massive problems with other candidates.  Pawlenty, e.g., although you may be doing arm stretches in preparation for thworing him under the bus?

We got a Craft Services tray of shit sandwiches here.  I'm just trying to see which one smells the least.

292 Once again, Ace, if you want to avoid Christine O'Donnell-type candidates, don't oppose them with Mike Castle-type candidates. The really decisive event in the primary was when the NRA endorsed Christine O'Donnell. In New Jersey, you may tend to think of the NRA as a right-wing fringe group, but to most people engaged on the gun issue, they are seen as a bit on the cautious side. The fact that Mike Castle was so bad that they'd endorse a kook over him spoke volumes.

293

"She is, and she is furthermore, not serious."

She's not serious.  That's doing enough of the work there.  I know you've met her and didn't come away impressed, while I've only seen her on-screen, but I assess her as smarter than the average person, which is to me definitionally well above the threshold for "blithering idiot."

What she's not is what you are: three or four sigmas above average.

You know who was, though?  Clinton.  And yeah, he's looking better and better in retrospect, but still, to the extent he was any good at all, was it because of his Big Meaty Brain?  Or did that tend to get in the way and fuck things up for him sometimes (though less so than his Little Purple Brain)?

294 You know who was, though? Clinton. And yeah, he's looking better and better in retrospect We beg to differ. Then again, we're gun owning rednecks with small dicks, so you have the constitutional right to incinerate our children. After all, we're not beautiful and sexy like Bill Maher.

295 >>>Narratives of cultural vengeance, when skillfully deployed, have worked like gangbusters for both parties in the past. 68 and 72; 92 and 08 to some extent. Yes of course; I'd be the first to confess the power of such cultural vengeance populistic appeals. My point is that this is great stuff to deploy, a means to and end. It cannot, however, simply be your end, your goal, regardless of whether you can actually win the presidency. At the current moment, this is not a tactic or strategy, but rather this IS the goal of 40% of the base, and they're willing to subordinate much more important goals to achieve this vindication.

296 >>> I know you've met her and didn't come away impressed, while I've only seen her on-screen, I never met her. When I say "I Knew her" I mean I realized that while many people were just hearing of Christine O'Donnell, I had long known her as That Idiot I Always Change The Channel On Because She Talks Nonsense And Makes Shit Up Like "I Used To Be A Witch" In Order To Bring "Evidence" To Her Position.

297

"We beg to differ"

Waco may be the worst blot on Clinton's record.  As someone who's watched "The Rules of Engagment" at least four times -- features a lot of creepy Schumer-as-Representative, and might even have Weiner-as-his-aide in the background of some shots, who knows? -- I don't take it lightly, believe me.

I'm just saying, he's looking better, if only because his successors, especially the current one, are making him look better by comparison.

298 I am soooo not wearing knickers. Hello?

299

"At the current moment, this is not a tactic or strategy, but rather this IS the goal of 40% of the base, and they're willing to subordinate much more important goals to achieve this vindication."

OK, but if the most important goal is winning, you look at the strong showing by Generic Republican and conclude "the means to that goal is to be as Generic as possible."  Which, yes, suggests Pawlenty, or perhaps even Perry: a generic Midwestern Republican and a generic Southern Republican.  (Pause to observe that Perry would be the first truly Southern GOP nominee.  Dubya was a New Englander by birth, Texan by the Grace of Dad.)

But this NEVER works.  This is in fact the thought process which led the Democrats to pick Dukakis.

If you think Palin is too radioactive, fine.  But if you're also already rejecting Bachmann out of hand because (a) the wrong people like her (b) she reminds you of Palin (see, even if you really are just responding to the Cult, in doing so you're beginning to conform to its ways of thinking), I submit that you're not thinking clearly.

Your biggest knock on Palin has been: she seems kinda ditzy and unserious, at times just plain dumb.  Well, Bachmann is for current purposes essentially Palin-but-not-ditzy.  I'd expect you'd be up for that.  Instead you're Pining for Perry.  Which a lot of the party is also doing, but I'm wary.

300 303: Waco is the source of much of the cultural resentment Ace talks about. I know I deeply resent that so many people think it's sexy to set children on fire--including, apparently, Peggy Noonan, considering that she said that normal people are afraid of all those nutty gun owners.

301 Gotta go get what's left of my hair cut.  Repent, Ace!

302 Knemon, I like Perry too, but a good portion of it is that I appreciate politicians who are willing to pander to their base. I'm not so stupid that I don't realize Perry's armed jogging is a political stunt, but I can't help being impressed by the fact that for once you have a Republican who's actually willing to pander to gun owners. Bush II always acted as if they were an embarrassment, even after it became clear that the NRA was one hell of a lot more popular than he was.

303 You do realize he is not from Utah, right?
Posted by: Y-not at June 17, 2011 11:44 AM

You do realize his family settled in Utah before moving on south of the border to greener Mexican pastures, right?

You do realize that the Romney family owned 20th Century Utah mines, right?

Have you forgotten the Utah Olympic "miracle" -- Seagull Mitt's claim to fame?

Are you denying that on the national forum, Romney's the golden boy of the Utah Mormons in general and the SLC hierarchy headquarters specifically?

It would seem that Utah should remain beside the point of voter deterrence.

It's Romney's socialism that is of concern, particularly from the Oval Office.

But then, if you knew your Utah history, you'd know the reality of Mormonism's "unique" form of 19th Century communist exploitation of members. LITERALLY, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs," WAS the official Mormon line explaining the United Order, a lesson from their uniform textbook at Mormon Seminary (high school daily hour) taught through the 1970's which includes Mitt's formative education from home, in whichever US State. Combine that with the not so unique Mormon priesthood authoritarianism, questioning them is literally forbidden, and there's a case for "why" Romney would have such an affinity with his own elitist authoritarian socialism. That he's made his way into the Rockefeller clique is no comfort, either -- as if globalist interests wouldn't permeate every locale, Utah included. After all, Utah is a beautiful State.

304 Hey Ace, that raw nerve brought out a big discussion.

Promoting lewd comments for tits/ass has its own impact on your image, nothing to do with me. I did not say that you hate women. If you're uncomfortable defending the site's exploitation of boobs and dicks, that's your affair. It doesn't matter to me. I made an observation that you took overboard since you don't suffer from misogyny. You think that you're not chauvinistic, though? In all the string of comments following my speculation, you failed to address why it's so typical here for the guys to tell the gals to STFU and serve up a sammich. Sure, there's sexism here. All in good fun. So what's else is new? Denial? That won't make the sun rise in the morning. Irritation is hardly hate or intolerance. I don't care that you're a bit of an ewok chauvinist so far as photo subtitles go. And by the way, I used to defend you all the time here, taking your side. So ease off with the over-reaction dump of your own making.

Sure, there are cults per candidate; Romney, Palin, Ron Paul supporters being the most volatile. It's the supporters, not the candidates, that reject critical analysis to include the balance of the cons with the pros within voter judgment.

What you say of Palin's fans, you may recall that I said at the onset of the '08 primary season was one of the reasons I'd not "like" Romney's campaign: his campaign supporters' fanatical mind-set, that any criticism of Romney's policies just had to be bigoted by nature. The Romney cult played the "Mormon" card like Obama plays the "Race" card -- way too frequently to mean much more than an easy cop-out for failing a good defense/response to criticism.

I'd be interested in reading Ace's take on The American Spectator article comparing Romney to Rockefeller. By shying away from the comparison, it appears that you're loathe to criticize the pro-Establishment socialist GOP candidate.

2008, too many people commenting and posting here slammed Fred Thompson as too old to be a great POTUS. Y'all wanted "fire in the belly" and got Obama's. If that's supposed to be the reason to vote for Romney in 2012, the result will be another Obama, whether Barack or Mitt Rockefeller.

I promoted Fred Thompson's First Principles platform. "Vote Fred!" really irritated those who didn't find good reason to support his platform. He certainly was not the most deceitful candidate (I noted through your many comments above that you evaded my criticism of your preference for a candidate's presentational style). Thompson's First Principles common sense agenda pre-dates the Tea Party. And Palin, entering the scene so late as the national convention, had the political good sense to pick up Thompson's slogans. Lest you read incorrectly, I'll reiterate: Palin is NOT my choice for candidate.

You repeatedly reference "cultural vengeance".

What matters to me is clearing out authoritarianism from governance. I don't care if the house cleaning is done with vengeance or meekness of heart, so long as we don't elect another president whose experience matches the qualifications of those presidents who've led our American way into the ruined situation in which we are.

If cultural vengeance were so wrong, you'd not have changed you take (2:2 . As an aside, you wouldn't prefer the mannerism of a Mr. Nice Guy, either.

I could be wrong, but you didn't respond with any examples of conservative women candidates whom you have supported, or whom you do support or will support. I have yet to find your strong support for any female candidate, president or otherwise. Sure, there aren't that many making any kind of a splash. And even were they making a splash, the reason to support them shouldn't be based upon gender. But then, holding the mannerisms of a gender against them seems prejudiced.

Did you miss Rick Perry's Bible Story Time during a national media interview this week? You'll swallow ditz from guys, but not from gals. The rocket scientist campaigning in Tucson could have used a lot more national coverage. Sure, she got mentioned very positively here. Mentioned. There are swipes at conservative GOP women entering politics, fighting against the establishment figures in both parties. I'm not centering that comment based upon O'Donnell who trusted an establishment PR firm to promote her as the "not a witch" -- whose personality is warped.  Angle in Nevada spoke to her voting constituents, and her comments met the ire of national news promoters who particularly eschew the Bible thumping. But the fact was that both O'Donnell and Angle would have provided much needed conservative votes on monumental legislative bills.

It isn't as if experience in politics makes a good leader. The opposite argument holds more water, given that political corruption is the greater meaning of "experience". And so far as executive experience being the #1 qualification for the next potus, not at all so. Not if the experience proved bad performance of duties. And as Mark Levin reminded, John Adams, James Madison and others had no executive experience.

Don't piss Romney down America's back and tell us he's our CinC savior. Although I'd vote for Palin if she won the GOP primary, she is not my first choice. But between Palin and Perry, do acknowledge that Perry has three strikes against him for denying US citizens in Texas their constitutional rights.

In 2012, "It's the economy, stupid" meets bail-out mania;
5+ simultaneous wars WEAKEN the Dollar via further DEBT;
there is no excuse for the CinC to arbitrarily start additional new wars;
these never ending multiple wars will bring the return of the Draft;
and finally, it's illogical to rationalize perpetual compassionate wars fought to save national Prestige while actually imploding our national sovereignty. America is being swallowed by the UN/NATO dictates.

305 I hate to say this but after listening to a speech by Gingrich this morning, I've come to the conclusion he makes more sense than the rest of the bunch put together.  He's precise, articulate, plain-spoken, and passionate.  Unfortunately, he's also a low-life cad who abandoned his wife when she needed him most. What to do??

306 Most unfortunately, the low life cad would do to America what he did to his ill wife. What a waste of intellectual prowess, talent and experience.

307 "You'll swallow ditz from guys, but not from gals."

Yup.  Mav has you here, I'm afraid.

On the Bachmann/Palin tip, HotAir's comments reveal that not all, or even necessarily many, Palinistas are pleased at Bachmann's debut in the race -- partly b/c of the same-niche thing, but ALSO because many suspect Bachmann is a crypto-squish or an establishment stalking horse or what have you.

I think that's nuts, but the point is that you're calling Bachmann (CO'D is another story) a "Palin Clone" based mostly on the fact that neither has a Y chromosome.

308 >>...Pawlenty does seem to have a basic tendency to play nice, ...<< Which is why, not unlike McCain, Pawlenty is going to inspire only disgust and not pity when he's spitted on the firm, decisive rubber cock of Obama '12. There are a lot of reasons to like Chris Christie. The biggest one is that he would never let his Democratic opponent rhetorically buttfuck him for being a nice guy. Two words, Pawlenty: coffee, closers.

309 Ken said: You've said that we'll have to come to terms with the 64% who won't vote for her. Fine. Then come to terms with at least 40% of the GOP who will not tolerate a personal campaign against her. I think that a non-Palin candidate can win--but he'd better be willing to pucker up for her supporters.

Absolutely not! To borrow from Walter Sobchak: Because this is politics. Unlike 'Nam, there are no rules.

Palin is absolute electoral death. She's not just unelectable; She's like an Ebola-Zaire patient who's late stage and bleeding out. Anyone proximal to her runs the risk of catching the meme she's caught that contains personality traits that will doom any mainstream candidate to death. Just by being close to her, by being affiliated with her, the sheer association is enough to transfer this to the other candidate. (ie. Why would a smart candidate associate with Palin?!)

Don't believe me, run a cross-over study in which you ask the perception of candidate A and then the perception of candidate A knowing they affiliate with Palin or share X belief with Palin or are supported by N% of Palin supporters. Then for added fun take the population's demographics and match for competitive swing states in 2012. The woman is an electoral disaster. Given we can't all do this, run regressions on the available polling from RCP and you'll find roughly the same.

"Pucker up for her supporters  " ? If you want to see a religious-right agenda in the United States, you'd be better off slitting your wrists with a plastic spoon and hoping for the after-life than betting on Palin or anyone who embraces here.

Her utility is in mobilizing the hard-right/values voter from a distance. It's in staying away from an electable candidate like Mitt Romney so that he can appeal to the wide-swath of mainstream voters found on the economic-military axis in the swing states. Meanwhile, she can stay the hell away from him and rally the right.

310 I think Pawlenty's problem, and hesitancy to attack Romney, is the same problem every other candidate on the stage has: they can't debate Romney on health care. Mitt will destroy them. Now, I like Pawlenty and Romney. But however you feel about RomneyCare, the fact is RomneyCare does exist. Health care is a hugely complex and difficult issue. Romney lived and breathed and debated and argued and signed a very important piece of health care legislation (unlike Pawlenty, and unlike Obama, ironically). Romney will probably win a five minute debate with any of those other candidates on the issue, once you get past a 10 second sound bite about "government takeover". And so, I don't think it's at all surprising that Pawlenty and everybody else were shy about getting into a back-and-forth with him at the first debate.

311 Romney will probably win a five minute debate with any of those other candidates on the issue, once you get past a 10 second sound bite about "government takeover".

Once you get past a 10 second sound bite about "Romney will probably win" you might face up to "government takeover".

doug, your memory is as brief as Ace's regarding Romney faults. Facts go in one ear and out the other.

Fred Thompson already won the debate against Mitt Romney's stuck on stupid mandate to economic and medical care RUIN. As if any other candidate can't memorize Thompson's argument to use. As if there's an expiration date on logic and the record.

You're ignoring the entire Republican Leadership House/Senate Floor arguments against ObamaCare. Congressmen and Senators argued evidential proof from Tennessee  and other states that ALREADY TRIED and had already met failure before Mitt ignored, either blindly or stupidly stubborn, in order to claim to perform a miracle mandate cure-all that has also proved to be the inevitable Massachusetts "economically affordable health care" failure.