1 barak obamma is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure

2 Hannity said he was going to press Perry on some of the things we've all been complaining about.

3 Yes, there is. He can flush the compassionate conservative 2.0 bit and tell people that he's gearing up for the long haul.

4

habity bop, bop bibity bitity, romney we much.

 

5 When I said "have a heart" I ment I'm going I'm going to HAVE your heart....for breakfast.

6 Illegal immigration, DREAM act, Romneycare.

7 I grew up listening to WMAL.  Well, that and WGTB (Georgetown U's station).  WGTB's call sign supposedly stood for "We're Gone, Too Bad" because of tension with Georgetown's administration (it being a Catholic school and the station being pretty darned lefty even then). 

8 I was bumped to the highly-lucrative 3am hour.

9

Can Perry help himself?  Maybe, it seems like the problem right now is that he keeps getting in his own way.

10

>>>Hannity said he was going to press Perry on some of the things we've all been complaining about.

And then throw a red, white and blue football at him in a playful and non agressive manner

11 Pretty irritating having to sit through their news spot and listening to the SCOAMF. 

12 "Can he say something to help his cause?"

Hi. My name is Rick Perry and I know Sarah Palin.

13 You're all great Americans!

14

I'm amazed that Perry falls asleep during the second half of debates, you would think given his proximity to mexico that he could get his hands on some columbian marching powder at a low cost.

15 12 "Can he say something to help his cause?"

Hi. My name is Rick Perry and I know Sarah Palin.
  "I was put on eath to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum?" Might work. Beats talking about liquid whore and Romneycare.

16 Geeze Ace for a guy who blackballs me from the liveblog you sure get your que from my posts

17 I listen to a lot of talk radio but I can't stand Hannity. I can't understand how he's in second place overall as he's downright irritating, talking over people and repeating the same thing over and over and over. I guess he doesn't have any decent competition during the period with Michael Medved but still, how he's made it this far I just don't see how. 

18 Nice hair BTW. This worries me given the silky pony.

19 Rick Perry is going to start referring to himself in the third person.

20 If Perry is ever gonna back down from the "no heart" shtick it has to be now. He needs to make a clean break from that line.

21

Indeed Ace,  how he doesn't have canned answers for Gardisil, in state tuition, Social Security and Romneycare is beyond me.

Either his debate team sucks or he can't remember the debate prep.

 

22 Hey Ace, how did Ron Paul do?

23 17 I listen to a lot of talk radio but I can't stand Hannity. I can't understand how he's in second place overall as he's downright irritating, talking over people and repeating the same thing over and over and over. I guess he doesn't have any decent competition during the period with Michael Medved but still, how he's made it this far I just don't see how.



THIS!!!

24 You heartless wingers.

25 "Can he say something to help his cause?" That if he was in the Bar with Bristol Palin that fag bastard would have walked out without any teeth

26 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

27 Okay Perry, let's do some damage control.

28 Hannity is incapable of REALLY pressing on these issues, unfortunately.

29 I'm telling ya, Perry has money on Romney.

30 Posted by: Wyatt Earp at September 23, 2011 04:08 PM (gA69l) Hannity's opening monologues are somewhat okay because they're scripted. When he has to go up against say, a libbo, he just doesn't cut the mustard. NOT AIR QUALITY as a broadcaster friend of mine would say.

31 The repetition from Hannity is maddening.

32 Perry gives a great interview, he just can't debate worth a shit.

33

Perry- Not tax subsadies involved in tuition breaks for illegals

34 >>>Geeze Ace for a guy who blackballs me from the liveblog you sure get your que from my posts

WTF are you talking about?

35 28 Exactly. Plus, he's been sniffing Alan Colmes' panties for way too long.

36 I think a lot of people are like me, in that we hoped Perry would be the strong, conservative alternative to Romney.  Seems more likely at this point we're either going to find that strong alternative elsewhere, or Romney is going to be the nominee.  Somebody, please come up with an idea (and no, I don't mean the ex-Governor of Alaska).

37 He's not backing down, but he didn't use the "heartless" term again.

38 I listen to a lot of talk radio but I can't stand Hannity. I can't understand how he's in second place overall as he's downright irritating, talking over people and repeating the same thing over and over and over. I guess he doesn't have any decent competition during the period with Michael Medved but still, how he's made it this far I just don't see how.

I always defend Hannity for the simple reason that he serves his purpose.  He's no great thinker or even a great broadcaster, but he presents the conservative opinion in a simple and concise way for fence-sitting squishy indys to understand.

"He bangs the drum"

39 Jesus F*cking Christ, why couldn't he give this answer last night?

40 The thing that scares me most about Perry at this point is that he could have handled this in-state tuition thing so well and so easily, yet, either by choice or lack of ability, decided not to.

That concerns me.

41 If Perry is ever gonna back down from the "no heart" shtick it has to be now. He needs to make a clean break from that line.

Posted by: Lincolntf

 

I am a witch. ....Howz that?

42 He did mention the fact that there are no taxpayer subsidies for in-state tuition.

43 He sounds intelligent to me.  Irrespective of my disagreement with him about this issue, he does not sound unintelligent. 

I guess that transcript "leak" worked though because people say they think he's dumb. 

44 32 Perry gives a great interview, he just can't debate worth a shit.

He can debate better than he has during the last 3 debates.

45 Hannity replaying Santorum's back-and-forth with Perry.  Have to say that I had forgotten just how well Santorum had his number in that exchange.

Wait, we're getting to the "constantly interrupting" point.  That's dickish.

46 Jeez, like deja vu all over again.

47 sonnyspats, you were not "blackballed" from the live blog. I am sick of explaining it. I have explained it in eight previous ones. Fucking read.

48 @44 Well, at this point, I'll believe it when I see it.

49 He counters Santorum! I'm starting to believe again!

50

This kills me. He just gave a great answer. Why can't he say that during a debate. I don't agree with it entirely, but he's not some idiot that he appears to be at the debates.

Maybe we can have a debate that is a phone interview format

51 night and day... sounds a lot better here, again.

52 Santorum's points are wrong.  Sorry.  I can't believe people thought that was a good attack. 

53 Some times intelligence is denoted as the ability to think quickly and precisely. People like Perry and Obama do quite well when everything is scripted and choreographed for their liking and no deviation takes place- anything spontaneous throws them into a drooling, stuttering, fucking catastrophe. So how did Ron Paul do?

54 NOT AIR QUALITY as a broadcaster friend of mine would say.

Listen to his show and drink every time he says, "literally."  You'll be drunk before the first commercial break.

55 @51 Is he backing off the "heart" bullshit? I want a full apology for that shit.

56 The person debating Obama next year has to be effective.  Otherwise, they will lose.

57 >>>He did mention the fact that there are no taxpayer subsidies for in-state tuition.

Yeah, but by definition that's false.  If the illegal kid in-state isn't paying full freight, some legal out-of-state kid IS paying full-freight in return.   The money comes from somewhere.

58 The Perry that showed up to the last few debates is not up to the task of defeating Obama. Maybe he can fix this, but I just don't see it.

I have more confidence than ever that Romney could defeat Obama, but less confidence than ever that would mean any significantly positive for the country.

59 A lot of conservatives are kinda meh on Perry for some of the stuff he's being hammered on, but he keeps taxes and spending down and creates a favorable climate for job/business creation.

60 He's doing so fucking great right now. Good. He needs to practice and be this person during a debate.

61 Perrry is wrong. The answer is if you are illegal, you get nothing! Kentucky?! What the fuck is he talking about?! Kentucky, last I checked was still one of the 57 states.

62 Hannity interviewing (R's) isn't credible. He's Colbert, sans the parody angle.

63 Perry's kind of going off the rails again here.  "Tenth Amendment issue" and "no dissent in the legislature" ARE NOT SUBSTANTIVE DEFENSES.

"Whichever state Santorum is from."  <-- Is that an insult or does he not actually know he's from Pennsylvania?

64 Yeah, but by definition that's false.  If the illegal kid in-state isn't paying full freight, some legal out-of-state kid IS paying full-freight in return.   The money comes from somewhere.

Its Texas' choice to make.  They also give a break to Sooners.  That's Texas' business.

65

Posted by: Rick Perry at September 23, 2011 04:02 PM (q177U)

You never cease to amaze buddy!  That one line right there will carry you to the White House. 

66 Meh, he's pandering. I guess he has to, but I fucking hate that.

67 Posted by: Jeff B. at September 23, 2011 04:15 PM (D9z3D) ----- Sure, but he's doing a better job at explaining his views.

68 Sorry to say this cause I know it will piss off a lot of people... Perry was downright awful last night... and not just awful at debating but actually Christine O'Donnell awful.

69 Can he say something to help his cause?

"I can see Mexicans from my house."

70 @64 It's my business if he's running for president, which he claims he's doing.

71 Ehh.....not doing so good right now...

72 Its not really the answer he gives, if he believes something and faces the voters, fine, but its the command of language that bothers me.  "putting the airiel assets in the ground"?  Ok, everyone makes gaffes, but he has got to be able to do better and quit doing so many.

73 The money comes from somewhere.

He specifically said that the legislation was revenue neutral.

74

>>>"Whichever state Santorum is from." <-- Is that an insult or does he not actually know he's from Pennsylvania?

 

shhhhhh! We Pennyslvanians don't want that getting out.

75 So we are going to do this, we are actually going to nominate Romney because he is a good speaker. The fact that in actual empirical data, Texas vs Mass, he is as big a SCFOAMF as the scfoamf in the white house. Mitt Romney? Romeycare mandate and all. Mitt "we should ban "assault weapons"" Romney.

Even though the Texas miracle is less miracle than the predictable result of steady conservative leadership.

God help America then.

76 ^{Doesn't want to answer Sean's question about the 'heartless' statement, does he?}

77 48 @44 Well, at this point, I'll believe it when I see it.

He'll never beat Romney on style, but I've seen him do better. As some others have said, he is primarily skilled oratorically when it comes to interviews, speeches, and personal interaction with voters.

78
and his jobs plan?

79 #63

Yep. Those are the same answers that Romney has been using in defending RomneyCare. If it isn't good enough for Romney, it shouldn't be good enough for Perry.

80 heh

81 creates a favorable climate for job/business creation

Who are all those guys at the Home Depot?

82 It's my business if he's running for president, which he claims he's doing.

Posted by: Dave at September 23, 2011 04:17 PM (Xm1aB)

---

He is governor of a state.

Do you believe that President Perry would strengthen the Dept of Education and force this policy on all states?

83 Yeah, but by definition that's false.  If the illegal kid in-state isn't paying full freight, some legal out-of-state kid IS paying full-freight in return.   The money comes from somewhere.

Not from the out-of-state kid. If he's actually going to Texas, he's paying the out-of-state costs anyway; OR he's not going at all because the class is full up.

If you want to argue that the out-of-state kid is more deserving, that's a different argument.

84 He passed voter id in Texas? Didn't know that. Perry is not weak on immigration. He isn't pro-amnesty. The only thing he did was doing something for kids of illegals. I honestly have no problem with this.

85

Shit, he did the have a heart thing.

sigh.

86 Americans who don't support my immigration policy in Texas are a drag on society, or don't have a heart, or something like that.

87 >>Who are all those guys at the Home Depot?

I'm assuming your relatives.

88 So how did Ron Paul do?

He managed to suppress his disdain for Israel, and not mention how he thinks it's cool if a regime known for terrorism by suicide bombing acquires atomic weapons. If I didn't already know him I wouldn't know he is crazy.

89 @82 No, I'm afraid if Perry becomes president, he will attempt amnesty and claim opponents are bigots and heartless. That's why it's my business.

90 How is this "it was Texas' choice" any different from "it was Massachusett's choice" for Romneycare?
P.S. Go Herman Cain

91 I'm really confused by Perry supporters, are Texas swagger and subtle twang really that important in a candidate?  I wanted to like Perry, but he douched out hard with the 'heartless,' comment.  If Perry was from the North East, there is no way in hell most of his supporters would even think of putting up with that crap.  I think that's part of the Romney turn off, he doesn't have the twang and swagger. 

92 All I can guess is that he's taking something for back pain in order to stand at a lectern and they slow him down at first and then kick in hard toward the end of the evening.

93 Not sure you can unring a bell--even in Texas.

94 84 He passed voter id in Texas? Didn't know that. Perry is not weak on immigration. He isn't pro-amnesty. The only thing he did was doing something for kids of illegals. I honestly have no problem with this.

The legislature finally passed it this year.

95

He does in fact sound far better on Hannity. He points out that anyone living in Texas for three years gets the in-state tuition, including people from Oklahoma.

 

Who wants to go to school in Texas anyway?  Sheesh!

 

 

96 Sounds like Perry is doubling-down on the "heart" bullshit. At this point, I'll vote for him in the general if I have to. Same with Romney.

97 Twang not so important, but the swagger...

98 I'm listening now. He is just like GWB in everyway without the smarts too it seems. Christ. Pander. Ricardo Perry

99 When is the 10th amemdment ok? Is it all the time or just when you like it?

100 It's driving me crazy that he makes an emotional argument.

Just stick to pointing out the complexities of the National/State border issues and say you did the best you could given the current state of federal involvement. 

101 I'm pretty sure he sounds drunk to me, or at least he's been drinking, or he had a drink sometime in the past five days. Did I mention Eagle Publishing and Teh Boss love them someone other than Rick Perry?

102 Posted by: Dave at September 23, 2011 04:20 PM (Xm1aB) -------- What makes you think he's pro-Amnesty?

103 I wonder if Perry realizes that satellites come in two sizes?  Size of a refrigerator and size of a school bus. 

Debate question Rick.

104 47sonnyspats, you were not "blackballed" from the live blog. I am sick of explaining it. I have explained it in eight previous ones.

Fucking read.

Posted by: A Jihdi With A Can Up His Ass at September 23, 2011 04:14 PM (nj1bB)

WTF? I can't be responsible to read every post. Some of these threads scream by so fast its hard to respond to my own posts. I'll look for it on the next livestream.

105 55 @51

Is he backing off the "heart" bullshit?

I want a full apology for that shit.

Posted by: Dave at September 23, 2011 04:15 PM (Xm1aB)

Irony is he can't. I'm sure Mitt already has the Perry waffles e-mail ready to hit send

106 Can we stop pretending that building 1,200 miles of fence is beyond the capability of humankind?

107 I really can't stand Romney, but if the choice is to have a Perry lose the general vs a Romney win the general, I'll take the latter.   So yes, Perry needs to speak better to get the nomination.  There will be $1 billion spent against our candidate and he needs to articulate his policies well.

108 69 Can he say something to help his cause? "I can see Mexicans from my house." Posted by: Dr. Varno at September 23, 2011 04:17 PM (QMtmy) Michael Moore wants you to see Mexicans IN your house!

109 This leads me to believe Travis, Bowie and Crockett were also heartless.

110
Let's not panic at the disco, yet.

We can stick a fork in Perry when his people start telling us that pandering to hispanics is a shrewd and calculated political move.

Until then, it's still copacetic in Liddsville.

111 You're a great American. He's a great American. We're all great Americans. I like cookies! Lolololol *fart* I saw a penguin once.

112

He's speaking more quickly and clearly now than he did at the debates.  What gives?  Pawlenty seemed to have the same problem of performing poorly in a debate format... though he's clever and witty outside of it.

113 >> He finally does what he should have done early and often -- blame the federal government for not enforcing the border, and noting that governors like himself are left to make sense out of a bad situation.

Hallelujah. I've only said this 100 times

114

Holly, He's a moderate on immigration and conservative on all else.

I think that's why people support Perry.

It's not the swagger or Texan thing.

He's conservative on economics, defense, healthcare, etc.

So it's not like a southern twang is getting him votes, it's his record and conservative stances.

 

115 Okay, Rick Perry's seeming dispositional inability to get away from the "have a heart" argument is officially a Really Big Problem.

116 @102 His accusation that Texas Dream Act opponents are bigoted and heartless.

117 Ok, now I can turn Hannity off.

118 No, I'm afraid if Perry becomes president, he will attempt amnesty and claim opponents are bigots and heartless.
---
Based on what?
Based on a policy that the people of Texas support overwhelmingly about how much tuition ~1% of their university students pay? 

Look, it's not a choice I'd make, but apparently the State of Texas' economy is strong enough to give up whatever the amount of money <1% of out of state tuition payments constitutes.

There is nothing about this that suggests Perry is going to be a problem on the federal level vis a vis immigration. 

119 Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 23, 2011 04:21 PM (UnAol)

Austin yes.  College Station, not so much.

120 @115 Bingo!

121

Perry needs to stress that it's not "Free Tuition".....which is what a lot of people think is what they're talking about.

I had Megyn Kelly's show on earlier. ...She had a group of people on there and asked them what they thought about Perry's "have a heart" remark. .....They were incensed that illegals were getting 'free tuition'.....and Megyn didn't correct them!

If you're a resident of Tx, been going to highschool there for 3 years....then you qualify to pay the in-state rate, like all the other residents. ...That's it.

122 Someone should ask him whether if Anita Perry were raped and murdered, would he favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer.

123 i can't listen to hannity.............just can't do it

124

He also needs a voice coach.

125 Perceptions can change on a dime, folks. GWB wasn't overpowering against Kerry or Gore, but I recall him having one good, winning debate against each. It was enough.

If Perry can cram for the primary exams, he'll be OK. He's not faring well now, but there were a) unfoundedly high expectations for him to be a savior and b) a giant target painted on him from both debate moderators (who want him down or out) and his political peers. If he can tap into the Tea Party sentiment more and articulate a bit more/better, he'll recover and prosper.

126 Texas DREAM act does not equal US DREAM act. He's not pro-amnesty.

127 I wonder if Ace is the only Perry  fan blogger writing in his diary today like 13 year old girl who got left of the hunky kids dance card?
The first crush is always the hardest.

128
Posted by: A Jihadi With A Can Up His Ass

you forgot to take off the clown nose!

129 Serious question: Since we know the general election is determined by the great and powerful middle (those folks that don't really pay attention to politics, but vote anyway), are there any data points that tell us how much they are influenced by the Presidential debates?

130  Can we stop pretending that building 1,200 miles of fence is beyond the capability of humankind?

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 23, 2011 04:23 PM (FzVlt)

Yup, get out the emminent domain pen and start condemning private property. It's doable, you just have to take some citizens property is all.

131 “Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity,” George S. Patton, Jr.

132 That's it? He was on for like 5 minutes and they only talked about one issue???

133 ......anyone else notice that romney stutters? 

134 "I can see Mexicans from my house."

Damn it.

I was trying to pick between "I can see Mexicans from my heart" and "I can heart Mexicans from my house [or maybe 'heavily guarded capitol fortress']." Had 'em both typed, was picking what to delete. Then...this.

Y'know, I was really enthusiastic about me when I first came on to the scene, but now that I've seen me up close, I just can't in good conscience vote for myself, because I'm just too unprepared and Bushy.

135 @118 Fine, vote for him then. He's pretty much dead to me like Romney always has been. I ain't puttin up with another "compassionate conservative" from Texas if I don't have to.

136 I wonder if Perry realizes that satellites come in two sizes?  Size of a refrigerator and size of a school bus.

Satellites come in more sizes than that. There are some that are the size of bread boxes.

137 I can choke down his generic Republican toleration of the illegals, who's better?, but insulting his own supporters has got to stop. 

138 106 Can we stop pretending that building 1,200 miles of fence is beyond the capability of humankind?

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 23, 2011 04:23 PM (FzVlt)

Someone needs to point out to Rick that the Great Wall of China is made of heavy stones, built over mountainous terrain, and was done without the aid of modern materials or equipment.

Then the Chinese manned it with their Army.

No Rick, a wall isn't effective. A wall replete with guys armed with M4s and shoot-to-kill orders? Well, THAT is very effective.

139 I don't get it. He sounds reasonably intelligent and thoughtful (for a politician) in interviews, and dumb in debates, even on the canned answers.

140 but it's false that they're getting "preferential treatment"

No, its not false, they're illegal, so it is preferential treatment.  Why should any illegal take the place of a citizen?

141 112 He's speaking more quickly and clearly now than he did at the debates.  What gives?  Pawlenty seemed to have the same problem of performing poorly in a debate format... though he's clever and witty outside of it.

I wish I could say otherwise but that's just the way he is.

142 Perry knows how important Hispanic voters are in his state, so he as an electoral history of playing it both ways. He wants to appear 'sympathetic' to immigrants while still being anti-illegal immigration.

He'll do the same thing in the general, and I think it is a completely open question as to what his policy preferences will be. I could see him supporting amnesty or some sort of partial amnesty.

143 Yup, get out the emminent domain pen and start condemning private property. It's doable, you just have to take some citizens property is all.

Yep. Easy to do. Just like that Trans-Texas Corridor.

144

I assume that American citzens from Oklahoma who move to Texas are still American citizens.

A Mexican National is not an American citizen after three years or 100 years unless they follow the laws that make you an American citizen.

So yes it does give perferiental treatment to non-American citizens as opposed to actual citizens of the United States of America.

This is actually the whole Texan problem in a nut shell.  Spending time in Texas does not (or should not) confer the rights of a citizen on Mexican Nationals who are here illegally.

Somehow they don't seem to get that in Texas.

145 >>>He also needs a voice coach. Give it a rest, or start a Celebrity Fan site. Sarah Palin is not a politician to you, she's an object of fan-love like Angelina Jolie.

146 Ace has pointed this out but how do you build a wall along the Rio Grande?

147 He managed to suppress his disdain for Israel, and not mention how he thinks it's cool if a regime known for terrorism by suicide bombing acquires atomic weapons.

Really?? Please tell me where I can find that specific disdain for Israel, or how Paul has supported terrorists acquiring atomic bombs. I need that specific proof, I'm weird that way...

148 Posted by: Dave at September 23, 2011 04:25 PM (Xm1aB) --------- That's fine, dude. Do what you gotta do. I'm not ready to give up on him just yet. He's still head and shoulders better than Romney on the issues. I wonder if Romney actually agrees with Perry but knows it's a toxic issue now.

149 I hate to defend Perry but illegal immigration is a federal issue and tuition at a state school is a state issue. If the feds don't enforce it, that's their business. I don't see any problem with in-state tuition for residents of the state.

150 Sarah Palin is not a politician to you, she's an object of fan-love like Angelina Jolie.


I KNOW YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MY WOMAN!!!

151
Be honest, everyone.

Ask yourselves this: Is Rick Perry ready for prime time?

152 He sounds reasonably intelligent and thoughtful (for a politician) in interviews, and dumb in debates, even on the canned answers.


Is he sitting down?  I'm starting to wonder if his back is really killing him, and he's having to medicate for two hours of standing.

153 Posted by: Meiczyslaw at September 23, 2011 04:25 PM (bjRNS)

No, no.  That's space junk.  Refrigerators and school buses.  That's it dammit.

154

Someone needs to point out to Rick that the Great Wall of China is made of heavy stones, built over mountainous terrain, and was done without the aid of modern materials or equipment.

Then the Chinese manned it with their Army.

No Rick, a wall isn't effective. A wall replete with guys armed with M4s and shoot-to-kill orders? Well, THAT is very effective.

Posted by: blindside at September 23, 2011 04:25 PM (x7g7t)

You should visit the great wall of china sometime or read about on the innerwebs.

The great wall of china is not a continuous wall but a series of short walls.

155 106 Can we stop pretending that building 1,200 miles of fence is beyond the capability of humankind?

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 23, 2011 04:23 PM (FzVlt)

I'll make a deal. We can if we can stop pretending a 1,200 miale static wall will stop people from jumping, climbing, tunneling, or being smuggled through checkpoints.

The key is to hit the companies hiring and stop the handouts. No jobs+ no welfare= no illegals 

156

When has someone gotten elected President in the last 30 to 40 years by saying how they are going to be "tough on illegals"?

Really. ...When has that worked? For either a Democrat or a Republican.

157 I'm really confused by Perry supporters, are Texas swagger and subtle twang really that important in a candidate? I wanted to like Perry, but he douched out hard with the 'heartless,' comment. If Perry was from the North East, there is no way in hell most of his supporters would even think of putting up with that crap. I think that's part of the Romney turn off, he doesn't have the twang and swagger.
 Posted by: Holly at September 23, 2011 04:21 PM (nqctR)   Nope. The problem with people from the North East is that they are people from the North East, essentially they are from a population which is assoiciated with anti-federalism, extreme liberalism, immigrant inflitration, ivy league smarminess, dense urbanization and arrogant condescension. The swagger and twang reveal that the bearer is the opposite at first glance then he may be looked at more thoroughly. Perry is not doing as well as I had hoped but the rest.........well, either they just can't get there (Caine) or they have their own histories (Newt).

158 Someone needs to point out to Rick that the Great Wall of China is made of heavy stones, built over mountainous terrain, and was done without the aid of modern materials or equipment.

And they literally sacrificed workers and buried them in the foundations to support it with their spirits. And it never really stopped anybody.

(And the really, cool, impressive part is only the part they show off to tourists. It's actually a pretty lame wall in places.)

159 I'll bet a minefield would be effective. And it would probably make for a quite a few hilarious video clips on Comedy Central and Leno.

160 Posted by: Soothsayer at September 23, 2011 04:28 PM (sqkOB) -------- We'll see. Hey, what was the race like at this time in 2007? See what I mean?

161 Oh goody. Rick Sanatorium is next.

162 I am not wary of Perry because he supported his state's Dream Act, as I've repeatedly said. His "defense" of that piece of legislation is despicable leftist tripe, and makes me and others question whether he would push amnesty once in office. Not complicated.

163 Holly, He's a moderate on immigration and conservative on all else.

Actually, Perry is pretty liberal with healthcare.  Giving illegal immigrants a free college education is far beyond being 'moderate,' on the topic.  I haven't even heard Barack Obama propose that.  Seriously.....free college???   I can't afford to send my kids to Texas A&M, why should non citizens who have broken our laws get a free ride like that?   How heartless is it the law abiding legal citizens?

164 I'll defend Perry and Romney. I don't give a shit about these details. You want another unchecked term of that piece of shit in the White House, stay home. Savage the other repubs. These two are seem to be all we got.

165 I blame Perry for saying heartless f*cking assholes are heartless.  He should have spoken plainly and called them heartless f*cking assholes.

That's what I was going to say.  Discretion and all that.

166 Doesn't teh she-devil get slammed for going on Hannity and taking softball questions? Just sayin'

167 Actually, I really kind of like Rick Perry's speaking voice.  Not only does it not bother me, I find it far more "gut level" appealing than Bush's, as far as Texas drawls go.  It's not nearly as exaggerated or distracted as people warned me it would be.

Meanwhile, Sarah Palin's voice can shatter glass and warp stone.

168 No, no.  That's space junk.  Refrigerators and school buses.  That's it dammit.

You are behind the times. There's a whole series of the itty-bitty things recently launched by the military.

There were also experimental packages that were dropped off by one shuttle and retrieved by another. They, too, were satellites the size of bread boxes. And cheap.

169

lincolntf

 

it's not impossible it's just not practical.....you still have to have agents on the border.....the illegals have been known to hop the fence...........they've also been know to dig under it...............

170 Some people don't do well when they've been told to speak slowly and clearly........our bishop is the most painful speaker in the world. He's fine ono-on-one but put him at a ambo and           you           want           to          kill         yourself.

171

"Giving illegal immigrants a free college education is far beyond being 'moderate,' "

Thankfully Perry has never tried to do that.

172 On the Texas border with Mexico think alligators not some stupid wall that only an idiot would support. And Holly, illegals do not get a free college education in Texas.

173 Dave, GW was pro-Amnesty too. Remember 2007?Did we let it happen? No. We didn't let it happen and the Dems controlled Congress back then.

174 SOMETHING NO ONE IS CONSIDERING:

Perry, being a devoutly religious man, may have not an intelligence problem but a humility problem.  It may, in fact, be against his nature to proclaim his own achievements and tear down the accomplishments of others.

The fact then, that the debate forum requires him to go against his core principles would, in fact, exhaust him and provide a halting performance.

175 Holly, your bold button is stuck. Use that little <> symbol to get rid of the extra font code.

176 Speaking of China, I think I've got to stop listening to Mark Steyn... He's just getting too damned depressing. Not wrong... but that only makes him more depressing. He said today the UN is predicting China will overtake the US as the largest economy by 2016! Jesus, I don't know what they base that on: it used to be estimated for 2025 or so. Under Obama, 2016. I think China is actually a lot more precarious then they let on, but it is depressing to think this great country has been squandered, all in a single generation.

177
Today is Talk Like a Yipping, Ill-Informed Demagogue Day.

178 Psst. Holly --

I made this point with Vic yesterday. While all bold is more sophisticated than ALL CAPS, it still makes you look like you're shouting. Some of us skip posts like that.

179 Yeah, Rick Santorum. The tragedy about Rick is that he's a smart guy with some real foreign policy chops who just can't resist being a dick on other subjects. I voted for him but I hated myself afterwards.

180 @174 Got ya Joffen, don't worry I'll vote for Perry against Obama any day. Perry just fell off my primaries-favorite list is all.

181 Ace has pointed this out but how do you build a wall along the Rio Grande?

Mexican labor.

182 Posted by: dagny at September 23, 2011 04:29 PM (Ayvi1)

What dagny said.

183 Its Texas' choice to make.  They also give a break to Sooners.  That's Texas' business.

Posted by: Y-not at September 23, 2011 04:16 PM (5H6zj)

 

They feel safe with that.  They know it's a zero-expenditure offer. 

 

 

184 90 How is this "it was Texas' choice" any different from "it was Massachusett's choice" for Romneycare?
--
On virtually every level.

Masscare was a failure.  It was a failure economically and it was a failure from the standpoint of health care accessibility (wait times have increased significantly).  Romney left his state with that albatross and he has not used the intervening years to do anything to undo that mess or to even dissect how it was a mess.  He's a rich, smart guy.  He could have started a think tank on health care or a private foundation seeding pilot projects on a free market approach or been an adviser of some sort. He still has not said it was a disaster.  All he says is Repeal and Replace -- with no indication of what Replace would be.  And Masscare was a model for Obamacare.  So thanks to this experiment in MA which Romney refuses to disavow we're stuck with Obamacare.

The issue in Texas is very different.  Perry has tried to get the Feds to enforce immigration laws and secure the border.  They simply won't.  So TX has all these illegals and the kids they brought with them.  For whatever reason, the people of Texas think that those kids, now young adults, will have a better shot at not being drains on society if they get college educations.  So, given that Texas' higher ed system allows in state tuition waivers within their region (including OK and LA, iirc), they decided to extend that to include a subset of illegals who came here as minors and are living in Texas.  It hasn't hurt Texas.  Texas can afford it.  And there is no indication that Gov. Perry, if elected president, would decide to make that a policy for hte whole countyr.  In fact, I don't know how he could.  What I do know is taht Perry would not strengthen the dept of education and I suspect he'd weaken it. 

185
W h a t   a b o u t   t h i s?

186

>>  He does in fact sound far better on Hannity. He points out that anyone living in Texas for three years gets the in-state tuition, including people from Oklahoma.

 

Last time I checked, you establish residency in Texas for 12 months, you or your children qualify for resident tuition rates.  That was at UT, I checked about 6 months ago.

187

I can't afford to send my kids to Texas A&M, why should non citizens who have broken our laws get a free ride like that?   How heartless is it the law abiding legal citizens?

Not free. In-state tuition. And any student can get a loan for instate tuition.

188

Perry's almost as tedious as Hannity. If he's the best we got, we're phuqued!

Christie/Rubio, bitches, or don't even bother ringing me.

189

I'll make a deal. We can if we can stop pretending a 1,200 miale static wall will stop people from jumping, climbing, tunneling, or being smuggled through checkpoints.

The key is to hit the companies hiring and stop the handouts. No jobs+ no welfare= no illegals

Perry goes for the false choice.  He says that a wall is not as good as boot on the ground (and says it and says it and.....).  He doesn't explain why you can't do both, which is the best solution. 

Do you really believe that a high wall won't slow folks down?  Of course it will, making it much easier for ICE to then catch them or prevent them from crossing at all.  This isn't new technology.

190

Speaking of facts, where did Romney get his figure on tuition? I went to a state school in Texas and y undergrad was only about 4 grand a semester (Hah! only) and for law it was around 8.

I don't think illegals would pay that much more

191 “Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity,” George S. Patton, Jr.

Now, about that Vosges Mountains campaign...

192 Give it a rest, or start a Celebrity Fan site.

Sarah Palin is not a politician to you, she's an object of fan-love like Angelina Jolie.

Posted by: ace at September 23, 2011 04:27 PM (nj1bB)

I dun good her in Tejas. Thats my jobs plan.

193 Fair enough, Dave. I for one am thankful election day is a long ways away. Next debate is Oct. 11 sponsored by the Washington Post, iirc.

194

The fact that anyone with three years' residency gets in-state tuition is an opportunity to reshape the issue: "Should Texas universities be responsible for verifying and enforcing citizenship laws or should the federal government ?"

It's not a win, but it would put some ketchup and pepper on the shit sandwich.

Too bad he went "compassionate conservative" instead.  He should have hired Newt along with Newt's staffers.

195 Yes, Robt there would be political issues and legal issues to resolve, but the idea that building one is INSANELY IMPOSSIBLE !!!1111!! Is just fucking stupid.

196 Funny, I wouldn't be suprised to see fatboy Rove on teh TV defending Perry now that he's spouting the W. language on illegal immigration.

197 >>>They feel safe with that.  They know it's a zero-expenditure offer.

Right, but that's because no Oklahoman is in any danger of breaking 1000 on the SATs.  The NEW SATs.

198 Someone needs to point out to Rick that the Great Wall of China is made of heavy stones, built over mountainous terrain, and was done without the aid of modern materials or equipment.

No what someone needs to point out is the Great Wall of China was wholly unsuccessful at stopping invasion.

199 When is he going to do Alphabet channel interviews?

200 in-state tuition ain't exactly cheap.

201 The money comes from somewhere.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 23, 2011 04:15 PM (D9z3D)

The money comes from the PUF.  West Texas Intermediate extracted from university land and sold on the market.

202 They, too, were satellites the size of bread boxes. And cheap.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at September 23, 2011 04:31 PM (bjRNS)

Space junk, and I'll not hear another word!

203

Giving illegal immigrants a free college education is far beyond being 'moderate,'

For the zillionth time, it is not free. They pay in-state tuition. So do residents of Texas border states, including New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana.

204 Perry (like Bush) is heavily influenced by his electoral history in Texas. Republicans there know that winning at least a decent amount of Hispanic votes is crucial to their future success.

That perception is always in his mind and will be in the general. On this issue, expect him to be just like Bush.

205 We should build a wall around southern Florida to keep the Cubans out.

206 >>>I dun good her in Tejas. Thats my jobs plan.

That's still a more articulate argument than any I've seen Sarah Simpleton put together over the past three years.

207 I listened to the segment. He sounded better than in the debate last night. I'm somewhat more comfortable with his position on tuition, but only somewhat.

On border enforcement, I like his ideas of boots on the ground and air assets as part of a bigger plan, especially if that is used to stop armed cartels.

I think Perry  might have an advantage in expanding on how the feds aren't enforcing current laws.

Perry needs to come out and say, 0bama and J nap are willfully ignoring current immigration laws on the books. As president, I plan to enforce current laws and stop wasting taxpayer money on giving tax refunds/welfare payments to illegals..blah..blah..

208 Space junk, and I'll not hear another word!

Ah, I'm sorry. I didn't realize my sarcasm detector wasn't working.

209 I think Romney would sign an amnesty bill into law in a fucking heart beat.

210 I hate to sound like a broken record, but which viable candidate has a better plan for the illegals?  I think they are all squishes.

211

175-- Oh my gosh!!!!

Rick Perry is completely full of himself.  He makes Obama look humble!

That is what I noticed first, and why I can not stand the man!

212 That's still a more articulate argument than any I've seen Sarah Simpleton put together over the past three years.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 23, 2011 04:37 PM (D9z3D)

uh huh

213 I guess Perry's a Baptist on jobs, and a Methodist on illegal immigration.

214 201 in-state tuition ain't exactly cheap.

Posted by: PR at September 23, 2011 04:36 PM (8a0kZ)

Compared to out of state or private tuition it is DIRT cheap. In fact, it is lower than catholic high school tuition. It's nothing in the world of college tuition.

215 You can understand why Texans give a break to people from Oklahoma.  Being from Oklahoma is already a lot to have to overcome in life.

216

Rick Perry is completely full of himself.  He makes Obama look humble!

That is what I noticed first, and why I can not stand the man!

Posted by: petunia at September 23, 2011 04:38 PM (hgrmi)

Go sniff Romney's shit. The man is one of the most arrogant out there.

217 We should build a wall around southern Florida to keep the Cubans out.

Posted by: Dr Spank at September 23, 2011 04:37 PM (BcpOa)

Exactly, no one would mind that. It would be great!!

218 @88 because Norks having nukes is somehow different? All of those countries out there like Iran and NK are all the same.. they want to play with the big dogs.. let them. When they show their teeth, they will get fucking hammered into the stone age. Buddy of mine says: "You wouldn't give a crazy guy a gun, would you?" I said sure.. it just makes it more justifiable for removing him from the planet when he points it at you.

219 @210 Maybe so, but he's got the campaign speech down pat.

220 Exactly, no one would mind that. It would be great!! Posted by: robtr at September 23, 2011 04:39 PM (MtwBb) No, the Floridians would just keep bumping into it.

221 >>>uh huh

>>>Posted by: Flapjackmaka at September 23, 2011 04:38 PM (aOjfG)

"Crony capitalism, Sean, you betcha!"

222
space junk, it smashed my baby's head

223 Ah, I'm sorry. I didn't realize my sarcasm detector wasn't working.

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at September 23, 2011 04:38 PM (bjRNS)

Go to your room!

224 I know people are saying this is a style problem (he's not smooth) but I think it's evidence of a substance problem.

He says the right things about Social Security but he doesn't have a solution in mind? It's like he hasn't thought one of his major issues through in any substantive way.

Anyone can get up and say "Social Security is a Ponzi scheme", hell I did it right here over two years ago. To be taken seriously as a candidate you have to be able to go to the next level and say, "here's what we do".  Perry says, "we need a conversation about it". Really?

Let me ask this in all sincerity of a Perry supporter. He says denying these kids in-state tuition is heartless. But it's ok to deny them the chance to put that degree to use in a job? How do you square that circle?

225

This is actually the whole Texan problem in a nut shell.  Spending time in Texas does not (or should not) confer the rights of a citizen on Mexican Nationals who are here illegally.

Somehow they don't seem to get that in Texas.

Posted by: petunia at September 23, 2011 04:27 PM (hgrmi)

-----

Getting a degree from a Texas university does not make you a citizen or improve your chances. 

You do not have to be a US citizen to study in Texas. 

All that is happening is taht the state of Texas has decided that they will collect less revenue from a specific subset of Mexicans than they might otherwise.  It has not hurt the Texas economy.  It has not hurt Texas universities.  In fact, it sounds as if Texas universities are so robust that Perry is pressuring them to trim the fat in their operations so that they can lower tuition.

226 That perception is always in his mind and will be in the general. On this issue, expect him to be just like

Yes, the Hispanic vote is crucial for the GOP's future, however, that can be taken care of with a VP Rubio.  There are better ways to win over Hispanic voters without throwing principals out the window.

227 Rick Perry is completely full of himself.

Compared to whom? Mittens? That's laughable; Newt? That's even funnier, Foster Mom? at that point your point is absolutely F*ing hilarious.

228 Sounds like Perry is doubling-down on the "heart" bullshit.

At this point, I'll vote for him in the general if I have to. Same with Romney.

Posted by: Dave at September 23, 2011 04:21 PM (Xm1aB)

 

I'd rather have some kind of half assed amnesty than Obamacare any day.

^{on the other hand amnesty could lead to another version of obamacare since they'll all vote democrat as soon as they are citizens. LOL}

229 Hannity- Republican first, Conservative second.

230 So everybody is ok if an illegal gets a spot in a college in Texas over a citizen even if its only in-state tuition?

231 No what someone needs to point out is the Great Wall of China was wholly unsuccessful at stopping invasion.

There were actually many walls in northern china and were quite successful over many years in preventing successful invasions from the north. For example as late as the 17ty century, the Manchu invasion was held off from 1600 to 1644.

232

Why start out life 100k in the hole?

Or go instate and only start out 40K in the hole and that's if you don't work and your parents don't pay shit. You probably wouldn't have to pay that much if you aren't getting parental support. If you have decent high school grades, go in-state, don't have parental help, and have a part time job you can get through in-state tuition being only about $25K in the hole--the price of a nice used car.

233 Well at least we know Perry slid by with a 2.5 gpa at A&M in animal science which is 2.5 points higher than any known gpa of totus. That idiot Paul doesn't have near the credentials of Perry. He's just another slimy doctor, delivering babies, saving lives- nothing nearly as important as being a male cheerleader.

234

We should build a wall around southern Florida Georgia to keep the Cubans Floridians out.

235

>> If the illegal kid in-state isn't paying full freight, some legal out-of-state kid IS paying full-freight in return.   The money comes from somewhere.

If you're talking about the difference betwen resident tuition rates and non-resident,

a. property taxes

b. sales taxes

c. other general revenues

 

Mostly b.

236 Obviously the fence/wall would only be part of the solution, and there would be nothing to stop border areas from trying different approaches at different points.

237 210 I think Romney would sign an amnesty bill into law in a fucking heart beat.

Posted by: Joffen at September 23, 2011 04:38 PM (EPcuy)

Someone... last night said Romney actually vetoed the Dream Act equivelent in MA.

I get so tired of everyone saying... Romney would do some stupid thing when his record is every bit as conservative as some stupid squish like Perry.

You were all sold a bill of goods.

Rick Perry is no conservative.  He is a pay for play politician and he does what ever he needs to get power.

Texas is conservative, so Perry looks conservative too.  But he is just another politician with no moral core.

238

Christie/Rubio, bitches, or don't even bother ringing me.

Posted by: JDW at September 23, 2011 04:34 PM (uw+0A)

 

They aren't running, asswipe.  Go outside and look around at reality for a change.

239 Have you heard any condemnation by the left on Perry's illegal immigration stance?

240 Soothsayer: "Ask yourselves this: Is Rick Perry ready for prime time?"

No, and for a veteran politician, that's a problem. But there's still lots of time. He'll have to work much harder than people thought he would; and maybe that explains why his decision to enter took so long. He may not have been suitably prepared for a run but was essentially drafted by cheerleaders who just "hated" everyone who had already declared. He jumped in prematurely though that might seem counterintuitive since OMG!! he has to declare nownownow!! the window is closing!! etc. The fierce urgency of now 365 days/year of campaigning spurred him in... and probably too soon.

Plus fanbois had ridiculous expectations. A letdown was inevitable.

241 So everybody is ok if an illegal gets a spot in a college in Texas over a citizen even if its only in-state tuition?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 23, 2011 04:41 PM (jiVmv)

I don't live in Texas but if it's ok with Texans then I really don't care. Providing what you say is happening.

242 I think Perry jumped into the race before he was ready, he should have waited. All he would have missed were a few meaningless debates.

243

175.....SOMETHING NO ONE IS CONSIDERING:

Perry, being a devoutly religious man, may have not an intelligence problem but a humility problem. It may, in fact, be against his nature to proclaim his own achievements and tear down the accomplishments of others.

The fact then, that the debate forum requires him to go against his core principles would, in fact, exhaust him and provide a halting performance.

Posted by Bill Mitchell

------------

I have been thinking much the same thing. ....Last night it was like Perry was really having to force himself to attack Romney back. So consequently he sucked at it.

 

244 The reality is you can't appear to be mean to hispanics and win. Not even in Texas.

The Dems already dominate Houston and Austin. These are large cities. Lots of votes. The left in Texas is just as left as any big city in America.

The future demographics of Texas are such that the Left hopes they can start a big fight between whites and hispanics.

And if the Dems turn Texas blue then it's game over for a generation.

245 Just rotate one or two Army divisions along the border for "extended desert training and maneuvers." Either that or put two armed soldiers on the border every half mile. No fence needed. Just guns, ammo, night vision scopes and lots of liquid. (not Liquid Whore).

246 Let me ask this in all sincerity of a Perry supporter. He says denying these kids in-state tuition is heartless. But it's ok to deny them the chance to put that degree to use in a job? How do you square that circle?

I think because to qualify for in-state tuition as an illegal, you have to be pursuing citizenship.

247 And if the Dems turn Texas blue then it's game over for a generation. Posted by: Clubber Lang at September 23, 2011 04:44 PM (QcFbt) Game over. Period.

248 For example as late as the 17ty century, the Manchu invasion was held off from 1600 to 1644.

So they had to *ahem* man the wall for it to be useful? When after it was finally finished was near impossible thanks to being broke from having built it?

249 So is it OK to pander to Hispanics in Texas, but not OK to pander to libs in Mass?
Shove a bottle up my butt and call me a heartless bigot.

250

Sales taxes, which, incidentally, everybody who buys something here pays.

Full ride at Texas is about $7,000-$8,000 a semester (tuition, room and board, books).  Which I know cause I paid it for a kid for 3 and a half years (she graduated early, God bless her!)

251

" Romney would do some stupid thing when his record is every bit as conservative as some stupid squish like Perry."

Except for raising taxes, starting a socialized medical program, and supporting TARP, amongst other things.

252 Obviously the fence/wall would only be part of the solution, and there would be nothing to stop border areas from trying different approaches at different points.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 23, 2011 04:43 PM (uIz80)

A wall wouldn't be any solution, other than to deny property owners their rightful access to water.

253 Let me ask this in all sincerity of a Perry supporter. He says denying these kids in-state tuition is heartless. But it's ok to deny them the chance to put that degree to use in a job? How do you square that circle? This is a good question. I'll have to think about it for awhile.

254

Texas is conservative, so Perry looks conservative too.  But he is just another politician with no moral core.

Posted by: petunia at September 23, 2011 04:43 PM (hgrmi)

You must think mitt romney is satan then if we're talking about moral cores.

255 They aren't running, a**pe.  Go outside and look around at reality for a change.

The first election isn't until January 31st and they run through June. Why would we have to select someone currently in the race? All these debates at this point are as useless as they are annoying. It does make for lively blog comments though.

256 Perry is not ready for this.

As the big names people wanted to jump in (Daniels, Christie, Ryan, etc.) decided to stay on the sidelines, many important conservative donors/politicos started looking around for an alternative to Romney.

Perry, who didn't really look like he wanted to run, bought into all of the narratives for running that these people fed him (Texas jobs, Hispanic votes, winner...whatever). He assumed that he just had something that would easily translate.

He doesn't. He can't run for this like this is another Texas gubernatorial election, and I don't think he is nimble enough to shift gears quickly.

257 So everybody is ok if an illegal gets a spot in a college in Texas over a citizen even if its only in-state tuition?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 23, 2011 04:41 PM (jiVmv)

They don't.  They just get the same rate.

258 >>251 So is it OK to pander to Hispanics in Texas, but not OK to pander to libs in Mass?

Yes.

259  If the illegal kid in-state isn't paying full freight, some legal out-of-state kid IS paying full-freight in return.   The money comes from somewhere.

If you're talking about the difference betwen resident tuition rates and non-resident,

a. property taxes

b. sales taxes

c. other general revenues

 

Mostly b.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at September 23, 2011 04:42 PM (WvXvd)

You forgot d. the Texas tuition fund set up in the early 1900s for Texas and A&M.

The state granted a metric shit ton of land to the schools that at the time didn't look to have value. Turns out though, that under that land was a lot of oil. Oil the schools now own. I have to lease from the schools from time to time and they are dicks. They always want a premium bonus, (in some places $3,000 an acre) plus 25% royalty

260 The bigger issue, in my limited government view, is why are 'state colleges' even something that the taxpayer has to finance?

Well, in Texas' case, it's because the bottom occasionally falls out of the "Permanent Fund" that's generated from Texas' public lands. (Oil is the biggie.)

When I went to school, the PF was flush, and in-state tuition was ridiculously cheap. (It's also worth noting that the UT football program actually paid the school $5 million last year.)

261 Dagny, it's relatively cheap but $40,000 is not dirt cheap and more than covers the cost of faculty and classrooms. It might not be enough to cover diversity and grievance administrators though. Perry's plan for a $10,000 degree is getting there.

262 That is what I noticed first, and why I can not stand the man!

Well, at least you are being honest finally that your reasons are emotional, not rational. 

263 You forgot d. the Texas tuition fund set up in the early 1900s for Texas and A&M.

The Permanent Fund was actually established in 1854.

264

"Creased pants" vs. the wrong "canned answer."

It's the same vapid, packaged stuff. You're essentially just complaining he doesn't dissemble well enough to allow you to ignore the evidence he's not a mere pragmatist, but rather another open borders ideologue. Or at least boost him to those who need to be convinced.

If he could, you'd still be on the bandwagon.

265 This bullshit of taxpayers paying for k-12 and then having to support state colleges on top of that is bullshit. Go to community college for a few years, save a boatload of money, then transfer to a 'name' school. Why start out life 100k in the hole?

How do you think community colleges are funded? 

266 Be honest, everyone.

Ask yourselves this: Is Rick Perry ready for prime time?

Right now there are only two candidates who are, Newt, and Romney. Romney is a non starter. He's got until next year before I have to answer that question definitively. Issues are important right now, because that tells me if I like him, competence is important later, he's allowed to get better as he goes along so long as he is up to snuff come primary day.

267 I think because to qualify for in-state tuition as an illegal, you have to be pursuing citizenship.
Posted by: Johnny (John E.) at September 23, 2011 04:45 PM (nRTou)

I covered that after the last debate (scroll down a bit to see it). It strikes me that he's stretching the definition of "pursuing" citizenship.

268 I think because to qualify for in-state tuition as an illegal, you have to be pursuing citizenship.

Seeking residency.

269

Posted by: RioBravo at September 23, 2011 04:41 PM (eEfYn)

Actually Hadrian's Wall was quite successful at keeping the Scots out of Roman Britain too.

Strong walls make good neighbors.  There is a fense between my neighbor's houses and mine.  My dogs dont' eat their chickens.  Works great, we talk over the fense...Life is easier with walls. On the other side their cat does come inside my house if I leave the door open.  But I like their cat so it's okay.

270 So they had to *ahem* man the wall for it to be useful? When after it was finally finished was near impossible thanks to being broke from having built it?

See 190.  It isn't either/or. 

Are you suggesting that building the wall would bankrupt the country, especially in comparison to the cost of dealing with 20M+ illegals?

271 Well, of course there are only so many spots and any illegal that gets in takes away one from a citizen.  And yes I would have a problem if Texas does it for two reasons, 1. they are illegal (yes the feds should do something about it) and 2. Perry is looking for that federal job.

272 I covered that after the last debate (scroll down a bit to see it). It strikes me that he's stretching the definition of "pursuing" citizenship.

Oh, I know it would be stretching.  I was just giving you what I believed his response would be.

273 @232 So everybody is ok if an illegal gets a spot in a college in Texas over a citizen even if its only in-state tuition?
---
Admissions != Tuition charges

274 Strong walls make good neighbors.

Google "San Diego Tunnel". If your neighbor sucks, the wall doesn't magically transform them.

275

>> You forgot d. the Texas tuition fund set up in the early 1900s for Texas and A&M.

 

I know about the Permanent University fund but it muddies the waters because it's only for the Texas and Texas A&M systems and obviously we have more state universities than those, plus it's not abundantly clear to me those funds cover the operating expenses of students, they're more geared toward facility expansion.

276 Posted by: Jollyroger at September 23, 2011 04:47 PM (NCw5u)

Dicks yes.  Stupid dicks - not so much.

277

244...... I think Perry jumped into the race before he was ready, he should have waited. All he would have missed were a few meaningless debates.  ....Posted by Dr. Spank

---------

I dunno. Perry needs the name recognition. All this controversy, good or bad, is accomplishing that.

If he had waited, he would've also missed out on securing some of the fundraising that has been going on since he got in.

278 Rick Perry said it was his wife Anita who encouraged him to enter the race. I suspect it will be Anita who encourages him to withdraw from it.

_{^{buy his book}}

279 Well, of course there are only so many spots and any illegal that gets in takes away one from a citizen. 

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 23, 2011 04:49 PM (jiVmv)

When I was in school, anyone in the top 10% of their class was welcome - no limitations on number of students.

280 It seems to me we annex land on the other side of the Rio Grande.  We bought Alaska from the ruskies after all. 

281 @211 I hate to sound like a broken record, but which viable candidate has a better plan for the illegals?  I think they are all squishes.

I'm guessing he's not considered viable by many but Herman Cain has been pretty good on immigration. Enforce the laws on the books and use the path to citizenship is essentially what he says when asked about amnesty.

282

226 - Drew, you're right.  The problem is what he did, not how he describes it.

Perry, like W/Jeb, clearly believes that illegal immigration amounts to a net plus for America.  Frankly, so did Reagan.  It's only become a fringey position over the last 10 years.  The "Texas DREAM Act" is something he clearly supports ideologically and emotionally and is personally invested in, thus his ham-fisted defense last night.  He waffled through excuses, then his true instincts won out and he started to defend the act as the right and good thing to do.

To answer your question:  as a Perry supporter, I think he'd give them a chance to use that degree.  I think Perry's a pro-Hispanic-outreach-via-amnesty - ironically putting him in the same camp as Karl Rove.  It's his major issue failing and it has nothing to do with messaging or delivery.  Both his heart and mind are committed to a "special relationship" between Mexico and the US (see bi-national health care) including a DADT attitude about illegal immigration at best (I suspect he's even more open borders than that but knows it would be a political coup de grace to say so).

283 146 Ace has pointed this out but how do you build a wall along the Rio Grande?Posted by: Dr Spank at September 23, 2011 04:27 PM   Exactly. A clue for Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney: that's why the border between Texas and Mexico is so wiggly. It's a river. And as these wizards of smart know so well, rivers stay right inside their boundaries and nobody ever uses them for stuff like irrigation or watering cattle, so a big ole fence would be no particular problem.

284 When I was in school, anyone in the top 10% of their class was welcome - no limitations on number of students.

Isn't 10% a limitation in that case?

285

I know about the Permanent University fund but it muddies the waters because it's only for the Texas and Texas A&M systems and obviously we have more state universities than those, plus it's not abundantly clear to me those funds cover the operating expenses of students, they're more geared toward facility expansion.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at September 23, 2011 04:51 PM (WvXvd)

Yeah, thats the fund. I went to UH, so no fund for us. (Many of the legislators are Ags or Horns so I don't expect a change here). It really doesn't matter how the money is allocated. Its still a slush fund so the schools can allocate elsewhere.

And my tuition was lower than the other schools anyway 

286 "I don't get it. He sounds reasonably intelligent and thoughtful (for a politician) in interviews, and dumb in debates, even on the canned answers." Maybe it's the lights, and the fact that there are 20 different candidates on stage, plus three interviewers, plus a TV audience, plus a live audience, plus a whole lot of lag time between responses. It's hard to know exactly how to focus a response. I can totally get how someone would be overwhelmed in a debate like these early ones and fine in an interview, or even a debate with fewer people. To me he sounds like someone who was startled out of being zoned out and then when he comes to he's trying very very hard to coax what he wants to say into an approved soundbite answer. He probably doesn't realize how terrible the "have a heart" thing is.

287

(And the really, cool, impressive part is only the part they show off to tourists. It's actually a pretty lame wall in places)

So you're saying it's the OK Wall of China.

288

You should visit the great wall of china sometime or read about on the innerwebs.

The great wall of china is not a continuous wall but a series of short walls.

Posted by: robtr at September 23, 2011 04:28 PM (MtwBb)

Already knew that. Does that somehow invalidate my point that the Chinese built long, thick walls over mountainous terrain without the aid of modern equipment and materials. Does it somehow prove that a 1200 mile long wall over relatively flat terrain is impossible to build?

289 When I was in school, anyone in the top 10% of their class was welcome - no limitations on number of students.

Isn't 10% a limitation in that case?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 23, 2011 04:54 PM (jiVmv)

It can be. I had 30 people in my graduating class. So .3 of us were given a pass to the big schools. The rest....

290 The ruins of the Great Wall of China are not continuous but the wall that the Ming Dynasty put up in the 15th and 16th centuries were continuous. There really was no connection between what the Ming built and the "Great Wall", which was a legendary edifice built by the first emperor, Shih-Huang Ti, who inflicted great cruelty and capriciousness on the peasants. The tag was given to the Ming construction later after China had expanded far beyond the Ming borders and the wall was obsolete.

291

276 - So don't build a wall because we can't "magically transform" Mexico ?  That leaves us with a) simply living with the present out-of-control border or b) doing something more "active" to transform Mexico.  Option a) isn't working well at all.  How do you propose to accomplish b) ?

292 If you could take John Wayne and mate him up with Rick Perry, you'd have John Wayne.

293 Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at September 23, 2011 04:52 PM (zjyVR)

Thanks.

I think you're right but he simply can't say it. I can't hold what I think he really believes against him but his language and the intensity of his passion for it lead that way.

294 If it blocks water access, don't build the fucking wall there. Use other methods. Is that too complicated? Different measures in different spots, but something or someone needs to re-establish our sovereignty over our borders.

295 Isn't 10% a limitation in that case?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at September 23, 2011 04:54 PM (jiVmv)

It is a limitation based on intelligence or expected success, not background. 

296 DrewM., part of Perry's hand here is forced. He know's he can't turn back on this one, else Romney will judo chop him as a flip floper.

297 Texas is conservative, so Perry looks conservative too.  But he is just another politician with no moral core. Posted by: petunia at September 23, 2011 04:43 PM (hgrmi) This from a Romney person. The irony. It burns.

298

I don't live in Texas but if it's ok with Texans then I really don't care. Providing what you say is happening.

Posted by: robtr at September 23, 2011 04:44 PM (MtwBb)

 

But MA choosing their own healthcare plan is a problem.  I see.  Because.... Obama said it was your problem.  And you always believe Obama.

 

Someone else said TARP.  Rick Perry would be nowhere without taking stimulus dollars.  His budget doubled... that means he got the money to lure illegals to his state... that is 81% of the jobs he is bragging about, they weren't for Americans either... anyway... Rick Perry got the numbers he brags about from Obama cash.

So to repeat at the national level... he is going to need China Cash, only funny thing--China wants paid back.

Rick Perry's solutions for Texas are the same solutions that Obama used nationally.  Only, Perry used his easy money to pay illegals to move to Texas and provide jobs for them.

You were all sold a bill of goods.  Perry is not conservative and he is not successful.

299 Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at September 23, 2011 04:52 PM (zjyVR) -------- Yes. There's no way to square a circle, good point Drew.

300 If it blocks water access, don't build the fucking wall there. Use other methods. Is that too complicated? Different measures in different spots, but something or someone needs to re-establish our sovereignty over our borders.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 23, 2011 04:58 PM (hiMsy)

We do need to protect or border. We don't need the wall, we just need the people to man it.

301 Posted by: Jollyroger at September 23, 2011 04:58 PM (NCw5u)

True but every candidate has that problem, it's not unique to Perry.

Still, there's ways to argue in favor of what he believes with going to the "bigot!" card not once but twice. It's what he really believes.

302

All these problems with illegal aliens is from one thing and one thing only.  The fed government absolutely refuses to protect our borders and/or stem the flow of these people into the US. 

Every state is dealing with this fact as well as they can.  Some dealing with it better than others.

Perry says, as president, he'll secure the borders.  IMHO, that's the first thing we have to do.  Everything else could be argued at a later date.

 

303 If it blocks water access, don't build the fucking wall there. Use other methods. Is that too complicated? Different measures in different spots, but something or someone needs to re-establish our sovereignty over our borders.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 23, 2011 04:58 PM (hiMsy)

The entire Texas border with Mexico is water. 

304

Already knew that. Does that somehow invalidate my point that the Chinese built long, thick walls over mountainous terrain without the aid of modern equipment and materials. Does it somehow prove that a 1200 mile long wall over relatively flat terrain is impossible to build?

Posted by: blindside at September 23, 2011 04:55 PM (x7g7t)

Would the Chinese have built the wall if there was a river they wanted to have access too along the site?

305 If it blocks water access, don't build the fucking wall there. Use other methods. Is that too complicated? Different measures in different spots, but something or someone needs to re-establish our sovereignty over our borders.

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 23, 2011 04:58 PM (hiMsy)

Alligators. Lots and lots of alligators. And sharks. With lasers.

306 simply living with the present out-of-control border

That is what the federal policy is likely to be over the next 5 years regardless of who is elected. Might as well ... enjoy it.

307

" Obama said it was your problem.  And you always believe Obama."

Unless you can prove Obama was lying when he said Romneycare was the blueprint for Obamacare, I'll have to take his word on that. Romney has never denied it.

308 Still, there's ways to argue in favor of what he believes with going to the "bigot!" card not once but twice. It's what he really believes.

Yeah, this.  It's like when the coverup is worse than the crime.  The In-State tuition thing is small potatoes, but implying that I'm a bigot torques my jaw.

309

Turns out, that term "Crony Capitalism" came from a Soros-funded org some time back.

Mark Theissen had an op-ed about it in the Washington Post yesterday.

The term 'Cronyism' has been around for a while, but linking 'Capitalism' to it is a liberal construct. ....I knew there was something bugging me about that term. 

310

Posted by: petunia at September 23, 2011 04:59 PM (hgrmi)

 

You really do sound like a Paulbot. 

311 Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 23, 2011 05:03 PM (UnAol) No, it's a Romneybot. I see it all the time commenting on Hot Air.

312

Posted by: DrewM. at September 23, 2011 04:56 PM (dw7rB)

Given his track record, I assume Perry's a fairly astute campaigner.  If he was acting out of pure political calculation, he would handle this issue differently. 

That leaves only personal convictions as an explanation.  He even defended himself today (vis a vis Romney) by claiming he was the one standing up for principles and what he believes. 

I think it's pretty safe to assume that Perry thinks what he's done with Hispanic issues in his state is the right thing to do, and we should expect him to lean that way in the White House.

Hate to say it, but those of us who are anti-amnesty and don't support a US-Mexico "co-prosperity" pact are going to need Congress to rein him in if we elect him (which I still support).

313 But MA choosing their own healthcare plan is a problem.

Masscare is a failure.  It was known to be a failure a couple of years ago (Heritage or CATO did an analysis) and it is still a failure.  It is an economic failure and it's a failure in terms of health care accessibility.

There is nothing that I've seen that suggests that this tuition program, which was instituted ten years ago and has been tweaked (but retained) since then, is a failure for Texas.  Texans are happy with it.  Texas universities are excellent. And Texas can afford it. 

314 Ace has pointed this out but how do you build a wall along the Rio Grande?

Yeah, the Rio Grande has altered its bank location more than once, causing border renegotiation. Portions of the fence were built inland, sometimes problematically on private property. And along Colonia border communities there'd need to be facile legal crossings. Besides, there's the sentiment from US citizens to look the other way rather than get caught in cross fire or victimized by theft, etc. given the human smuggling and drug trade from Mexico. Residents live there after politicians change their policies after all. Nonetheless, no fence presents a much more massive problem along the Mexican border. So would the massive Trans Texas Corridor without patrolled entry inspections that NAFTA interests lobbied to prevent.

All of the above border patrol efforts combined should work. /Overkill.

315 Listen to his show and drink every time he says, "literally."  You'll be drunk before the first commercial break.

Posted by: Wyatt Earp at September 23, 2011 04:14 PM (gA69l)

Same with 'et cetera'.  I can't listen.

316 299
Texas is conservative, so Perry looks conservative too.  But he is just another politician with no moral core.

Posted by: petunia at September 23, 2011 04:43 PM (hgrmi)

This from a Romney person. The irony. It burns.

Posted by: Mandy P. refuses to watch the SCOAMF at September 23, 2011

 

Is it harder to be a conservative in MA or Texas.

If Romney was a Democrat, or agreed with Democrats, why would he choose to crusade against Ted Kennedy as a Republican in MA?  Why not be a Democrat in MA? Why not make friends with Kennedy, instead of try to get him out of power?

On the other hand if one wanted power in Texas, which party would be the mostly likely to give it to you?

One is a Conservative, because it was the quick route.  The other is Conservative because it is right.

317

Already knew that. Does that somehow invalidate my point that the Chinese built long, thick walls over mountainous terrain without the aid of modern equipment and materials. Does it somehow prove that a 1200 mile long wall over relatively flat terrain is impossible to build?

Posted by: blindside at September 23, 2011 04:55 PM (x7g7t)

 

Well, heh ... you can "build" anything.

 

Whether it works or not is quite another question.

 

In fact - if the Feds ever DO build this wall you cherish - you can bet they'll wash their hands of it once it's completed and announce 'Mission Accomplished'.  Seriously - when Mitt is President he'll build that wall - and then point at it and say ... "See, problem solved!"

 

Meanwhile - MILLIONS of illegal's will be pouring through that wall. Climbing over that wall.  Cutting through that wall and digging under it.

 

And when governors complain about illegal immigration - ole Prez'dent Mitt will tell 'em - "What illegal immigration?  I built a wall down there!"

 

Perry is against a CONTINUOUS wall because it's impractical and will only give people a false sense of security.  The guy's backed walls over certain areas, farking PREDATOR DRONES over others, and technology over others.  He's backed sending more manpower to patrol ALL areas of the border.  That's really the answer - MANPOWER.

 

318 You know, I bet some genius could figure out how to build a wall/fence/observation point near a river, but that's probably just my wild imagination running away with me.

319

Would the Chinese have built the wall if there was a river they wanted to have access too along the site?

Posted by: buzzion at September 23, 2011 05:02 PM (GULKT)

You can, like put points in the wall that allow water access - guess where people trying to cross will naturally head to. The wall by itself is not effective - I'm under no illusion that putting up a wall will magically prevent people from trying to get over it, but it slows them down and channels them to other areas that are more easily crossed.

Do you lock the doors to your house when you leave or when you go to bed? Why?

320 Landmines

321 How do you propose to accomplish b) ?

You're not going to like the answer. Your choices include some or all of the following:

* Legalize drugs.
* Militarily intervene in Mexico.
* Extend asylum to most every Mexican.

The crap going on on the other side of the border is really that bad.

(There was a theory floated that Gunwalker was a way to supply one cartel against the Zetas, so the Zetas wouldn't overthrow the government of Mexico. Obviously, with the operations in Florida and Illinois, this doesn't seem reasonable, but the theory was floated before we knew about them.)

322 if the Feds ever DO build this wall you cherish - you can bet they'll wash their hands of it once it's completed and announce 'Mission Accomplished'.

_{Obama already declared mission accomplished on the border. So there - good as done. Move On.}

323

Re: 'troops and UAVs on the border'

Uh-huh, because I'm supposed to believe that the guy who thinks it is heartless to not give in-state tuition to illegals is now going to allow the military to use lethal force to kill them as they cross the border.

We had 130,000 troops in Iraq - we never came close to closing the country's borders with either Syria or Iran. And that was with wartime-level rules of engagement and operating restrictions. In this instance, they're talking about putting a mere couple thousand, operationally nerfed troops on a 1,200 mile border.

Nevermind that a majority of illegals now get here by plane. Nevermind that they're going to be deployed at a few select bases, leaving the rest of the border empty. Nevermind that they're not trained to detain people, and aren't going to be given the authority to shoot people.

"Troops and UAVs on the border" is just another shiny thing for the politicians to distract the voters with while not addressing the problem. It's the slightlmore concrete version of the "virtual fence." I.e., an expensive but ineffective boondoggle. Speaking as someone who believes in border enforcement, we'd actually be better off just leaving it open and not spending the money, than buying that dog and pony trick.

324 Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at September 23, 2011 05:05 PM (zjyVR)

Agreed.

Anyone who has been Governor for 10 years and has another 10 years in office before that is simply going to have things some people don't like.

I could honestly get passed that.

I might, might, be able to get passed the bigot stuff.

It's just add that to his general lack of depth on policy and I'm not buying him. Mostly I'm pissed off because I wanted him to be the guy everyone was saying he was. He's just not. It's not his fault he was over hyped but he took the good side of being the out of the box front runner, now he gets the downside.

I'll vote for him over Obama but it'll be out of obligation like with McCain. I was just hoping for more. Serves me right for thinking a politician might be more than that. They never are.

325

If Perry reveresed his stances on immigration, tuition, and social security that have been mentioned, wouldn't that effectively end any chance he has for the nomination?

I'm sort of glad to see a politician say something and stick with his statement. Regardless of said statement.

326 Regardless of what happens, Perry or Romney, I will vote for either over that stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure in the generals.

327 Nevermind that a majority of illegals now get here by plane.

Really. Who knew?

328 Posted by: HondaV65 at September 23, 2011 05:07 PM (8X9tr)

THAT is fair - arguing about if it is effective is different than making the statement it can't be done.

Like I said, I'm under no illusion that putting up a wall finishes the job - it is ONE layer of security. Any security requires multiple layers, which means any wall needs to be manned/monitored aggressivle.

329 Landmines

Posted by: Jean at September 23, 2011 05:09 PM (WkuV6)

I had proposed that earlier, but our cows can't read the location maps.

330 If it blocks water access, don't build the ... wall there. Use other methods. Is that too complicated?

The limit of which -- where there's all water -- is Perry's position.

331

Do you lock the doors to your house when you leave or when you go to bed? Why?

Posted by: blindside at September 23, 2011 05:09 PM (x7g7t)

 

To keep our wives from leaving us?

332 Nevermind that a majority of illegals now get here by plane.

Well then I guess we need to add security at the airports. ?

333 MittCare created a bankrupted medical system in Mass., just as Tennessee's socialized medicine legislation was a financial failure causing massive debt and delayed medical services. Nothing new.

Foolishly, this round of potus candidates are failing as a group to rally around the Congressional Caucus of Physicians' presentation on C-SPAN during the ObamaCare "debate" -- federally legislated measures to actually lower the cost of medical insurance policies available across the nation.

334 surely Graham is Rick Pussies choice for VP due to his stance on Mexigration?

335 If it blocks water access, don't build the ... wall there.

Ok because I need to be able to draw water at any time.

336 Landmines Posted by: Jean at September 23, 2011 05:09 PM (WkuV6) I had proposed that earlier, but our cows can't read the location maps. Posted by: Vashta Nerada BBQ

337

Uh-huh, because I'm supposed to believe that the guy who thinks it is heartless to not give in-state tuition to illegals is now going to allow the military to use lethal force to kill them as they cross the border.

But you're most definitely not heartless.  I can see that.

338 "If Romney was a Democrat, or agreed with Democrats, why would he choose to crusade against Ted Kennedy as a Republican in MA?  Why not be a Democrat in MA? Why not make friends with Kennedy, instead of try to get him out of power?" Ah yes. He's such a conservative crusader. Remember this one from Mittsy: "I like mandates. Mandates work." (2008 debates) How about that time he was fervently for a woman's "right to choose" when he was running against Kennedy. He gave Teddy the what-for on that, didn't he? What a stand he took for conservatism!

339 Uh-huh, because I'm supposed to believe that the guy who thinks it is heartless to not give in-state tuition to illegals is now going to allow the military to use lethal force to kill them as they cross the border.

Maybe we can just discourage a few by making it a wee bit harder to get it.

340 @319
Posted by: The Guy Who Says Bullshit A Lot at September 23, 2011 05:07 PM

I'm a fan of land grant universities.  They were started for the right reasons 150+ years ago and I think that they provide benefit to the citizens of the states they serve.  The point of those universities was to provide practical educations -- in stark contrast to the "classical" educations provided by the elite colleges to elite students. 

I'm not a big fan of community colleges, frankly.  The teaching quality is low and they are less likely to be self-sustaining (or even close to that) because there are so few revenue streams.  There's no research to attract extramural funding, there's no professional education of note (because the faculty are not up to delivering that sort of curriculum), and there aren't even wealthy alumni to make huge gifts to build an endowment.  They really seem like big high schools. 

I think the best model is a comprehensive university.  One that encompasses both trades and "community college" style remedial/general studies as well as full university curricula, including post-graduate programs.  The university should address the needs of its community as much as possible, but it should also strive for national (and international) excellence in some areas so that they have a chance to attract extramural support and provide outstanding educations to students. 

Anyway, I've been at both types of institutions - private and public - and I vastly prefer public... even thought they are mis-named and find most of their support from revenue streams other than state appropriations.  I'm not sure the typical figure now, but I don't know that I have heard of any state school receiving more than 40% of their funding from their states.  I think most are in the 30% and some are lower. 

341

You can, like put points in the wall that allow water access - guess where people trying to cross will naturally head to. 

To a place that they can make their own way through so they can avoid the "expected route" that has been set up for them to be caught trying to use.

 

Do you lock the doors to your house when you leave or when you go to bed? Why?

Posted by: blindside at September 23, 2011 05:09 PM (x7g7t)

 And nope.  Because I don't currently live in a place where that is a concern.  Hell my car is outside with the keys in the ignition.

342 OT. Newt on Hannity dumping a truckload on Oblowme for being a superpartisan ideolog.

343 Uh-huh, because I'm supposed to believe that the guy who thinks it is heartless to not give in-state tuition to illegals is now going to allow the military to use lethal force to kill them as they cross the border.

Who the hell is talking about using lethal force on the border?

344

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at September 23, 2011 05:09 PM (bjRNS)

I'm OK with #1, actually.  Legalization carries its own baggage, but it shrinks the black market substantially and puts more of the black marketeers under our thumb rather than the kleptocrats and feckless narco-toadies of Mexico City.

As for #2, that's obviously a last resort, but we should make sure that the cartels and their enablers in the Mexican government know that it's always on the table - including making the occasional raid into Mexico to prove our point when circumstances justify it.  The political impracticality of launching a full-blown invasion is why I'm for a wall as a helpful tool in the toolbox for all that it's not a panacea.

#3 Asylum is the de facto strategy right now anyway.

FWIW, the Zetas might as well be the government of Mexico.  They probably prefer their present position as shadows behind the throne since Zedillo and his cronies take the heat for how shitty Mexico is while the cartels enjoy the real fruits of power.

345 Who the hell is talking about using lethal force on the border?

I think the guy who mentioned the Berlin Wall yesterday.

346 With Cain scoffing at the EPA for regulating dust, Drudge headlines ETA banning inhalers for asthma. But of course, darling.

347 Hannity is still a festering ass cancre.

348

 And nope.  Because I don't currently live in a place where that is a concern.  Hell my car is outside with the keys in the ignition.

Posted by: buzzion at September 23, 2011 05:17 PM (GULKT)

 

Heh, true country Ohioan, right there.

349 Hannity is still a festering ass cancre.

And very good at it.
--
Spell check keeps highlighting 'Obama' when I enter it. It suggests SCOAMF instead.

350 Who the hell is talking about using lethal force on the border?

US Border Patrol Agents being shot at by Mexican Military and by cartel soldiers using machine guns.

US citizens attacked by Mexican cartel thugs while traveling near the border.

Americans visiting our own state/national parks near the border being shot at by Mexicans.

351 Posted by: pep at September 23, 2011 04:49 PM (6TB1Z)

20 million illegals may be a bit high, so let's crunch the numbers for 10 million of the little buggers, assuming $1000/year for average marginal cost per illegal.

1x10⁷ * 1x10³ = 1x10¹⁰ dollars.

Yup, I can build and man a kick-ass fence for that.

352

347:  Zedillo and his cronies

Oops.  Then again, I can excuse my anachronism by saying that Zedillo, Fox, Calderon et al are just interchangeable cogs in a one-party junta that's run Mexico since they kicked out the Spanish (who weren't any better).

353 Is it just me, or does Kevin Williamson look like a hard-core prison inmate in his photo on Nat. Review?

354 Ideally we could pay Mexico off to crackdown on their side, but there's waaa-aaay too much money coming in via the lax border security. We could never match it.

355 309

" Obama said it was your problem.  And you always believe Obama."

Unless you can prove Obama was lying when he said Romneycare was the blueprint for Obamacare, I'll have to take his word on that. Romney has never denied it.

Posted by: Dick Nixon at September 23, 2011 05:02 PM (kaOJx)

 

No the issue is, why is that Romney's problem?  Romney didn't help Obama, but Obama tried to damage Romney by giving him credit after the fact.  

Romney didn't tell Obama to use his plan and add 2000 pages of pork.  And then force it down America's throat against their Will. 

Romney didn't tell Obama to go against the U.S. Constitution and the will of the American people.  Obama did that, and blamed it on Romney, who was no where near it.

What Romney did do was, have a constituency that demanded a state healthcare plan.  He gave them what they asked for. He vetoed the plan after it was changed, then the legislature over rode his veto...

Romney's real mistake was in deciding to take credit for a bill he vetoed.  That was stupid.  And he is paying for it.

But Romney never shoved anything down anyone's throat.  And Romney followed the MA Constitution.  And Romney used the conservative idea that states are the best place to test things like healthcare plans.

And his idiot MA constituency still says that plan is what they wanted and they still like it.  It polls well, no matter how many headlines against it the press writes to damage Romney.

The only thing the two situations have in common is they both deal with healthcare. 

But one plan was the will of We the People.  And the other one was against the will of We the People.

And the Republicans were so afraid of Obama that they let Obama tell them who they could nominate and who they couldn't.

356 Posted by: DrewM. at September 23, 2011 05:17 PM (dw7rB)

Some idiot up-thread wants the border manned with two soldiers/mile, with plenty of ammo and night vision equipment (And it isn't even reactionary!).

You do the math.

357 Ideally we could pay Mexico off to crackdown on their side.

They seem to be having a problem at this time with the cracking down stuff.

358 Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at September 23, 2011 05:26 PM (21lBC)

Yeah, I noticed that. On the other hand, he writes well and certainly bitch-slapped Santorum!

359 Some idiot up-thread wants the border manned with two soldiers/mile, with plenty of ammo and night vision equipment.

What does that have to do with lethal force? Let's place 1 unarmed border peaceman every ten miles along the border. Maybe that will help.

360

>>  Perry used his easy money to pay illegals to move to Texas and provide jobs for them.

 

You're talking out of your ass.  Total bullshit.

See, US Census, 2010, and Congressional Apportionment.

Ninny.

361 The border situation is chaos.  Just like the dems like it.  This problem is so big now that just one plan isn't going to solve it.  The very first thing that needs to be done, though, is secure it.  And if it means at times that we need to use lethal force, then so be it.  We're going to have to do it to keep our sovereignty.

362 It seems that Perry would absolutely secure the border in any amnesty deal. I would be on board with that.

363 Ok, I have a better idea. Open the fucking borders, but make hiring an illegal punishable with prison time for the people who hire and a fat fine for the company.

364 It seems that Perry would absolutely secure the border in any amnesty deal. I would be on board with that.

That's all good to proclaim verbally but the border will likely not be secured any time soon. Amnesty: now that is possible.

365

"but make hiring an illegal punishable with prison time for the people who hire and a fat fine for the company."

Best idea of the say by far.

366 but make hiring an illegal punishable with prison time for the people who hire and a fat fine for the company.

Nice thought but will never happen...

367

RioBravo, Perry said no immigration reform without securing the border in that June Houston Chronicle interview.

 

368 make hiring an illegal punishable with prison time for the people who hire and a fat fine for the company.

Bob Perry (Mr. Swift Boat) won't like that. No can do.

369 What I mean is that Perry will absolutely make certain that the border is secure. He obviously cares about the issue and will make sure it's not done half-assed.

370 The real problem with Santorum is that he helped to make Perry look like a stroke victim. 
I've seen this movie before, when it was called teh Fred.

Good luck with Mr. Gardner ACE.

371 geez people cheap hotelz & burgerz

or rule of law

worth sacrificing a few lives for a banquet burger ain't it

372

Posted by: Mandy P. refuses to watch the SCOAMF at September 23, 2011 05:16 PM (qFpRI)

As always you vastly over state Romney's positions.

When Romney was a brand spanking new politician... never ran for dog catcher before he ran against Kennedy and almost won... he took some stupid stands, trying to unseat THE liberal icon of American government, in a very liberal state.

He found he had a talent for politics... so they asked him to run for governor.  He had little chance to win, he did not think through all the issues yet, and decided that in MA he had to live with the realities of politics in MA.

As he became an actual governor, he got more and more conservative in his statements.  Romney grew into a Conservative.  At first he was just annoying the liberals in MA.  He didn't think he could win.

Turns out Romney was one businessman with great political skill.  When Romney got serious about politics he became as conservative as you can be in MA.

Once again, if he was really a Democrat why isn't he actually a Democrat.  He'd go far in that party with his clean living and political talent. 

Why be a Republican in Massachusetts if you don't believe deeply in the principles of conservatism?  Why bother?

The logic that Romney is a stealth Democrat is illogical.  It flies in the face of reason.

On the other hand, Perry is much more likely a stealth Democrat, since he only became a Republican to win elections in very Republican Texas.

373  Perry said no immigration reform without securing the border in that June Houston Chronicle interview.

I like his statements as made as much as you do and I have been a Perry cheerleader. However, I suspect what it all actually means is that there will be a new law regarding securing the border along with an amnesty plan. The amnesty plan will be implemented, The border will somehow end up not being secured. As history is our guide...

374 "Posted by: Dick Nixon at September 23, 2011 05:11 PM (kaOJx)"

Apparently it's more "purist" to pander to the debate audience now than to stick to what you've been preaching for 10 years.  I wasn't at the meeting, but apparently a new rule was passed that requires conservatives to support the candidate that tells them what they want to hear. 

Maybe somebody else here has  the minutes from the meeting.

375 Maybe somebody else here has  the minutes from the meeting.

Does no one understand the whole undocumented concept? It's not just for aliens anymore.

376 Two questions:

1. How much do you think a 1200 mile fence would cost?
2. Who is going to pay for it?

Answers:

1. A bajillion
2. All of you

Still want to build a wall?

377

Ace and all the rest.

You are talking yourselves into supporting a loser.

Perry will not win.  He is a horrible candidate in more ways than debates...

He also, lied about being lobbied by the cancer victim.  He didn't meet her until the executive order was done.  Then they became friends.  It was on Drudge this morning.

So he plays fast and easy with the truth.  In a debate, before a national audience.  Not a good sign.

He can barely put a sentence together.  His grammer can be worse than a 4th grade hilly billy.

His record of pay for play puts Chicago to shame.

Don't talk yourselves back into liking him.  He isn't the energy.

Cain was good last night...  I know Romney is he who must never be given a break... but Cain was good.

378 Build my damn fence.

379 Two questions:
1. How much do you think a 1200 mile fence would cost?
2. Who is going to pay for it?
Answers:
1. A bajillion
2. All of you
Still want to build a wall?

Yes. In places along the border. For objections:

1. Use illegal alien labor to build it to lower cost and borrow the rest of the money.
2. Just borrow another 1/4 bajillion. That will only loser the credit rating to A+ and we all know we will still be a AAA country as The One said.

380 Perry will not win.

So no worries then, and yet, you persist.

381 His record of pay for play puts Chicago to shame.

Ridiculous and more ridiculous.

382 So no worries then, and yet, you persist.

She's concerned, toby.

Anybody but Perry.  He's extremely dangerous.  Those poor people in Texas.  I only hope they manage to escape before President Romney puts the wall up. 

383

>>  His grammer can be worse than a 4th grade hilly billy.

 

Grammar.

384 @240 Surprise, Cockfag! Christie IS IN FACT reconsidering a run for President. Why Christie Rubio should be a pipe dream is why we keep sucking! We have no imagination.

385 366 I'm not sure the typical figure now, but I don't know that I have heard of any state school receiving more than 40% of their funding from their states.  I think most are in the 30% and some are lower.

How is that not anything other then income redistribution^©?

---

I'm not sure what your point is, but funding higher ed is no more income redistribution than funding secondary ed, particularly for folks like me who have no kids. 

386 Soona - Tearorrist, see #389 - then eat a bag of dicks.

387

You can, like put points in the wall that allow water access - guess where people trying to cross will naturally head to. 

To a place that they can make their own way through so they can avoid the "expected route" that has been set up for them to be caught trying to use.

 

Do you lock the doors to your house when you leave or when you go to bed? Why?

Posted by: blindside at September 23, 2011 05:09 PM (x7g7t)

 And nope.  Because I don't currently live in a place where that is a concern.  Hell my car is outside with the keys in the ignition.

Posted by: buzzion at September 23, 2011 05:17 PM (GULKT)

Clearly because you don't *think* you have to lock your doors (because bad guys NEVER travel looking for easy targets), locks serve no purpose.

For the last time..I am not saying build a wall then just leave it. That won't work. It has to be manned. Believe it or not, history proves that walls with guards ARE very effective at keeping things you don't want inside out. I'm not even sure why some of you are trying to argue the point.

388 Dave in Texas,

If you can make it to the northern border, I'll drive down to pick you up.  We are setting up an underground railroad of sorts here in Utah to save all of you unfortunate Texans living under the thumb of that "hilly billy" Perry. 

Signed,

Your friend in Utah

389 ps: Dave, When you come. Please bring incandescent light bulbs. 

390

Oh hey, News Max says Christe is considering... they even have a quote...

I say, Christie will disappoint as well.  He isn't all that conservative either.

So... they may bring some more gladiators against Romney... but it will be in vain.

Because Romney is very good.  And he is right.  And he is the only one who can lead the country and the world out of this financial mess.

The stakes are so much bigger than the future of the Republican Party.

But the next, not-Romney is Christie.  So you can feel good about dumping Perry.

391 perry's done. stick a fork in him. but i do like his choice of a VP as our NOMINEE, a cloned hybrid of Newt and Cain. that's one bi-racial dude I can get behind

392 Christie IS IN FACT reconsidering a run for President.

Has this been reported somewhere?

393 Dave in Texas,
If you can make it to the northern border, I'll drive down to pick you up.  We are setting up an underground railroad of sorts here in Utah to save all of you unfortunate Texans living under the thumb of that "hilly billy" Perry. 
Signed,
Your friend in Utah

Nice and friendly.

then eat a bag of dicks.

Not nice and friendly, I think.  Can't we all just get along?

394 It's the lead at Drudge - take that with a grain of salt - but it's not a dead idea just yet. Considering the debates - 1) why would Christie waste his political cache doing them when he is already popular. 2) after watching the debates, realizing he could probably teach any of them.

395

For the last time..I am not saying build a wall then just leave it. That won't work. It has to be manned. Believe it or not, history proves that walls with guards ARE very effective at keeping things you don't want inside out. I'm not even sure why some of you are trying to argue the point.

Worked for us. Well..............

Posted by: East Germany at September 23, 2011 06:03 PM (OWjjx)

I know you are trying to be clever and funny but guess what: It ACTUALLY did. People were STREAMING out of the Soviet side of East Berlin and East Germany. Then the walls and fencing with ARMED GUARDS went up, and, surprise surprise, the number of people who actually left dropped precipitously.

Why do you think they put walls with guards around prisons, embassies, and nuclear power plants?

396 Ah  Chris Christie Reconsidering 2012 Run

Newsmax fwiw.

397 @400 It's the lead at Drudge - take that with a grain of salt

I really like Christie.  I grew up in the region (MD) and I'm super comfortable with his personality and style.  His priorities line up well with mine.  I think he's been doing great where he is. 

But I don't want him to run. I think it'd be a waste of time because there's just too many core GOP voters who would not go for him.  And, unlike Romney who has the money and time to run for President as a full-time occupation, Christie has a job to do - one that he really just started. A losing run for the presidency would just weaken his position in NJ. 

398 Hey ya'all yankees that want to build a wall separatin' cattle from water better be a bringin' some guns, because them illegals will be the least of your worries.

399

404 are you saying there is open range along the border?

There is with Canada.  Or there was in the 70s... the last time I knew someone well who ran cattle on open range.

400 A fucking wall is not that expensive

Hezbollah disagrees, well maybe we should save a few bob

401

>> Please bring incandescent light bulbs. 

 

Roger that.

402 There is no open range on the TX/Mexico border.

403 Petunia, on the Tx border we have these things called "ranches" and "farms". They are privately owned. A fence would have to built through those "ranches", and would separate the landowners from the water they need.

Rebelcowboy is correct. When my dad was a young lawyer, he was sent to work water rights cases on the Rio Grande. There were murders.

One thing people need to know about TX is that illegal immigration is a big problem, but the top three issues in TX are:

1. water
2. water
3. water

404 I thought Ace was straight.   Why is he man-crushing on perry so hard?

if this was palin, who performed so poorly in the debate, he would be screaming for her to leave the planet and declaring her finished.

You morons think you can rescue this turd that you tried to convince everyone is chocolate cake?   newsflash? 

he is done along with his boots and his toupe

Now its time for the fat man to jump in and crash and burn next.

Obama wins second term thanks to you all.

405

Well, I have live about half my life in AZ.  And... water is the top three issues there as well.

I personally think, the Rio Grande is a fence.  And better than some because it is hard to tunnel under a river.

However, once a fence is built and proper attention to border security is given, including many more boots on the ground... but not on the bottom of the Rio Grande... of course.  Only then, can we begin to control our own borders.

We don't have any control right now.  It is a huge task, which is why, even though that was a condition to the 1986 amnesty, the border was never controlled. 

And since the amnesty has now become a very real possibility because we did it before... it is a magnet.

Therefore, controlling the border must be the iron clad condition on which we begin any conversations about the Mexican Nationals who have lived lives in the United States waiting for the next amnesty.

And Rick Perry's Dream Act undermines the attempt to ever get control of our borders.  We have to be tough as nails or it will never happen.

If Rick Perry wanted a long term solution to the problem of illegal immigration.  If he wanted the future not to be like this. He needed to hang tough, not give an inch, until the border is under control.

Then.... my guess is, if we ever get control, which most countries do have control, at least better than us... then let's talk about what to do.

We have to learn from 1986 if this problem is ever going to be fixed.

 

 

406 I don't think that the Texas Dream Act was necessary for what its advocates claim it is for. I do not believe that Texas state colleges checked legal status prior to the act. They only checked applicants residence status to determine if they were in-state or not.

It was an overwhelming vote in favor of the act by the state legislature saying 'YES' to the 'hispanic lobby' and a gigantic F**** YOU to Texans in favor of immigration control.

407 152 He sounds reasonably intelligent and thoughtful (for a politician) in interviews, and dumb in debates, even on the canned answers. Is he sitting down?  I'm starting to wonder if his back is really killing him, and he's having to medicate for two hours of standing. **** That's what I am thinking, too. I just can't believe Perry I this bad naturally. Something isn't right.

408 Perry said 2 things today... sorta West Texas Zen.

In a speech today he said " Don't elect smooth debaters" classic Perry swipe at Mitt and Obama.

On Hannity he said "An unmanned obstacle isn't an obstacle" He the explained the reality of the terrain along the border gave enough facts.

Perry is always better in interviews and with voters...not stylized debates. He'll be better to face Obama if he gets the nomination but he's Rick Perry and won't try to be something he's not.

These are the kinds of classic Perry statements that sink into voters. Everybody else is playing to the media...and Perry is talking to voters. It's how he campaigns & the media will hate it. It's worked everytime.

Last night he sealed Hispanic votes not by pandering but  defending a Texas decision on the #1 issue for Latino voters which is education. This counts in FL. and could count in California.

He also showed up Mitt who is willing to torch the GOP to win.

409 Conservatives won't like Perry's  "heart" lingo...but it was a good tactic because democats will use the immigration argument to paint the GOP as the white man's party.  They always do but this cycle it will be ruthless. If conservatives don't wake up to that you might as well settle for Obama. That Romney and Santorum don't care is an error in judgment & reeks imho. It's one thing to disagree on a Texas law but the pile on has become hysterical....just like mediscare.

410 In interviews and the three debates, Perry has repeatedly demonstrated that he does not have a sharp mind. He is too intellectually weak to be given the nomination.

411 So the Republicans really don't have anyone. Anyone who can win. When was the last time a member of the House won the Presidency? Romney & the other Mormon Democrat = Celestial Plural marriage. Paul and Bachmann = Congress-critters. We like Cain and Santorum, but apparently not enough others do. What we need is a team like Barney and Christmas in "The Expendables" (2010), who will knee-cap the corrupt officials, strafe the bad guys, and use a fuel-air weapon on the opposition. WTF? No one on our side has the political CQB weapon equivalent to the AA12? I weep for the future.

412 @ 404 I can send some links for pipe suppliers. I've watered stock and left a buffer along the streambank to protect the trout fishery. Want to send water uphill using just water? OK. Hydraulic ram pump. Shut up, wet yer sights, and shoot the effing wetbacks while they're in the act.

413 I'm obviously rather late to this thread, but... If Santorum was telling a whopper, why didn't Perry call him on it? Isn't that what a strong leader would do? Wouldn't a strong leader say, "Wait a minute, here. You are completely mischaracterizing my decade-old position." And then Perry could have explained the position and humiliated Santorum. But he didn't. Why not? This is an important question. Do we really want another Republican president who declines to address bogus charges against him?

414 1) We're fighting about illegal immigration when Mexico has a lower unemployment than us? Unreal!
2) That petunia is a f'ing loon for Mittens.
3) I keep telling you all--the Mormon issue is a 100%, absolute killer. And I say this as one who was pissed when he lost FL last year. Mitt is dead, dead, dead in the general. I say this knowing many, many Mormons and I can tell you as sure as the sun rises tomorrow the attacks of Fuckabee will have been child's play compared to what will be unleased against Mittens. Religious bigotry is very, very potent. Jesus and Satan brother? Just scratching the surface. There is a lot worse out there; and the Dems will be dancing naked in the streets if Mittens get the nomination. Just like it is a cold, hard truth that some of us don't want to hear, that Sarah is unelectable, the same is true of Mittens. Just educate yourself by doing a search "are Mormons Christian?" and you'll be amazed at the amount of anti-Mormon gold mines out there. I don't like it, most of it is vile, but it exists and we have to recognize it's power.

415 "What About The Children..?" RINO Rick Perry revealed his treasonous colors in last nights debate when he said that those who refused his DREAM Act hispandering did not "have a heart." What about the children who,through no fault of their own,were born to African American parents? What about the children who,through no fault of their own,were born to white parents? What about the children who,through no fault of their own,were born to American parents? Who is heartbroken about a kid from Oklahoma having to pay out of state tuition to go to school in Texas? Why are our elites ONLY worried about the children of illiterates who illegally come to America to take advantage of free benefits? Is Rick Perry and the Mexican government racist against native born American children? http://elvisnixon.com/2011/09/24/what-about-the-children.aspx

416 "He finally does what he should have done early and often -- blame the federal government for not enforcing the border, and noting that governors like himself are left to make sense out of a bad situation." Yes, and the federal government sends the troops that the state does have (the Guardsmen) overseas to fight, which leaves the governor with few options.