1 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

2 ummm because he didn't propose one?

3 Hasn't this been taken to prohibit children or non-school groups from organizing their own prayers on campus?

4 The key is used to open the tin
The tin is there to hold the SPAM in...

5

Prayer didn't exactly help the drought in Texas.

UT/Austin kicking A&M's ass, now that was another story..

6 NO, this issue simply doesn't rise to the level of a constitutional amendment. If he REALLY wants to excite me about a constitutional amendment, how about one that defines and castrates the Commerce Clause? How come we NEVER hear about THAT from Conservatives?

7 Doesn't spam know when to post "first!"?

8 It will be a sad day when the spam screams first .

9 Liberals hate everything, so fuck em.  Pray everywhere.

OCCUPY PRAYER!!!!

10 "Maybe I was giving Perry too much credit. Maybe he really thinks that students aren't allowed to pray in public schools anymore."

They aren't, at least according to CNN's summary of Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe in 2000: "Supreme Court bars STUDENT-LED prayer at high school football games".
http://bit.ly/sPkxa6

(That was not just CNN's interpretation, BTW.)

Also, they don't have to prayers. A "moment of silence" has been struck down multiple times, under the fear that students might get the impression that that silence is meant for prayer.

But we don't need a new Amendment, just justices who can fucking read English.

11 You may be low , you are not slow . ...... bastige

12 dangit Gabe.

13 Maybe it is shit like this that Perry has in mind.  Maybe he wants it even clearer.

Quoted in full:

Honorary speakers at a Texas high school's commencement ceremonies will be allowed to invoke prayer at their graduation Saturday after a federal appeals court overturned a judge's ruling that would have banned it.

The ban, imposed Wednesday by U.S. District Court Judge Fred Biery, caught the attention of Gov. Rick Perry and state Attorney General Greg Abbott, who supported an emergency appeal filed by the Medina Valley Independent School District on Thursday.

"It should not be illegal for students to say a prayer at a graduation ceremony. Now, the federal court of appeals agrees," Abbott said in a statement Friday following the reversal.

14 If he REALLY wants to excite me about a constitutional amendment, how about one that defines and castrates the Commerce Clause? How come we NEVER hear about THAT from Conservatives?

Posted by: CoolCzech at December 12, 2011 09:22 PM (niZvt)

Because they love POWER more.  That would castrate them and they can't have that.

15 erry's not for mandating school prayer, btw. What Perry is against is the Supreme Court telling schools that they can't have organized prayer. Perry believes that should be left to the communities to decide.

I know, right? How liberal can you be, wanting local communities to have the final say, rather than everything being micro-managed by the feds. Oh the horror!

And for those who are just oh so horrified at the thought of public schools have official prayers, because this would supposedly violate the Constitution, know that each session of Congress begins with a prayer offered by a preacher that is PAID to do so. Since the 1700s.

oh noz

16 I ask because when we nasty American Taliban/Wahabbi Christian types get unhappy about the lack of prayer in schools, it is when students are prohibited from holding prayer meetings on school grounds that they themselves organize outside of class, and suchlike. It sounds like that is what he is objecting to here.

17 Well I don't support organized, teacher-led prayer in public school.  So in that regard I think SCOTUS got it right in 1962.

HOWEVER, Gabe, hasn't this same set of decisions been used to justify court rulings that prohibit activities that are not the same as organized, teacher-led prayer in school?  Such as valedictorians quoting from the Bible during a commencement speech, or something?  If that is the case then IMO these court decisions are wrong, and if the 1962 SCOTUS decision is so broad that it permits these things to be 'unconstitutional' then we do need to at least revisit the decision.

18 Would that mean the kids could take cupcakes with red or green sprinkles to their "winter party"? (currently banned)

19 The 1962 decision has, indeed, been taken to mean that nobody can organize prayer on school grounds, not just the schools themselves. I doubt anyone gets upset at schools not organizing prayers--heaven only knows what crap they would pray, anyway. The problem is when a Christian group cannot pray around the flagpole, or at extracurricular activities, or when a pastor cannot say a prayer at commencement, even if 98% of the student body belongs to that pastor's church. It isn't the organization that has been the problem to the ACLU et. al., it's the praying itself, and in that situation, I agree with Mr. Perry.

20 Oh Christ, not this shit again.

21 It is not so much prayer in school as prayer before the football game.
It is a big issue in west Texas.

22

I think Mr. Perry was referring to the prohibitions against organized prayer in school.. ie, before assemblies, football/sports, as a group, not individual and private.  The ACLU and the wackos have pushed hard the idea that a separation of church and state means no prayer, of any kind at school or school events.  I think this is what Perry speaks to.

 

Also, I think all the criticism is wacky because in the end, a POTUS does little except cheerlead for this or that and cannot drive a constitutional ammendment against the will of the Congress, much less the States that would have to ratify.  He is still my choice.  A real conservative that wants to bust some balls in Washington... which means he has no chance .. even if elected.  The DC machine would crucify him from every direction.

 

 

23 What's the current national Alert Level, anyway? Medium beige, eggshell, or Mocha Latte?

24 Taupe

25 Oh oh, better get rid of the faux spam link...

26 #18


WTF?!!!!!

27 The court decision prohibited school organized prayer but the actual way it worked in the real world was to outlaw all prayer. Kids have been disciplined for bowing their heads over their lunches. They've been prevented from doing book reports if the book had a religious topic. It takes huge court battles to allow kids to gather together voluntarily for prayer or bible studies. These cases and multiple cases like them, are being fought one school district at a time. 1962 was not the beginning of the war on freedom of religion but it was a major escalation.

28 @27: The Spam has become Moronic!

29 There's also this part of the transcript- ****** WALLACE: Let me ask you, though, about the specific charge in that commercial. You say that gays can serve openly while children can't pray in school. It was the Supreme Court back in 1962 that decided and it's been upheld since then that children couldn't pray in school. Barack Obama had nothing to do with that. And after repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," are you saying that anyone who supports "don't ask, don't tell" is anti-religious? PERRY: Well, let me back up and say that I would support a constitutional amendment that would allow our children to pray in school any time that they would like. Right now, those activist judges like Sotomayor and Kagan that he put on the Supreme Court, they would continue to say that that is a decision that the Supreme Court should make. I happen to believe that that would be a local decision and that's not the Supreme Court's business to be telling Americans when and how they should pray.

30 Actually, wouldn't it only take an act of Congress to instruct SCOTUS that their 1962 ruling doesn't include student-led prayer?

31 Bulging budgie-smuggler of bolshevism Barack Obama, atheist, is in fact anti-Christ, like Pol Pot and Mao and Lenin. It never ends well. The community of conservatism against the bath house of bolshevism: fer, or agin?

32 27 #18


WTF?!!!!!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at December 12, 2011 09:29 PM (piMMO)

Coolczech messing with us.

33 OT but they are about to repeat an It's Sunny episode. In this episode, the gang finds a glory hole.

I beginning to think it's a live action South Park.

34 Can we forget this sideshow already?  Andrea Tantaros is on Hannity.

One of my finest creations, if I may be so bold.  (And I may.)

^{_{Andrea, not that idiot hosting.}}

35 BRAINEATERS

36 24 What's the current national Alert Level, anyway?

Medium beige, eggshell, or Mocha Latte?

Elmo

37 The more the government does the more the government acts to fine tune what it is doing, and the trend is always more control, less freedom. Once again, we are left debating the dessert menu as the bow slips beneath the waves. Government education is the problem. Get rid of it and the school prayer issue vanishes with it.

38 also from the transcript

...something wrong in this country when gays can serve openly in the military but our kids can't openly celebrate Christmas or pray in school...


ahh of course. Perry didn't put on his "I HEART HOMOS" t shirt for the HYOOOGE gay conservative base.

believe it or not quite a few ( MOST!) Americans conservatives agree with this sentiment regardless of what PC crap  they post on AOS to make GM feel like a special snowflake.

39 @32: I thought it moderately amusing, but I guess Gabe was NOT Amused...

40

Gee could it possibly be that Perry sees the SCOTUS decision to end required school prayer led by teachers is used in a much broader intrepretation by idiot lawyers, just like idiot lawyers always use items well beyond their original scope to limit what students are able to do in schools?  But no lawyers are always right, just like reporters are always right. 

But gosh how could anyone accuse you of sticking "I want teachers to require students to pray" into Perry's mouth Gabe.  Its right there in the transcri..... Oops.

41 Chris Wallace is a tool, just like the old man.

42 What *hasn't* Perry proposed a Constitutional amendment for? I fully expect we'll see amendments mandating incandescent bulbs and high sodium content in ketchup as his campaign circles the toilet bowl.

43

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

The relevant clauses of the first amendment.  How, exactly, does having any prayer in any school, led by any person get construed to violate either the first or second clause?  Public school policies or practices have the power of Congressionally originted law?  The separation of church and state is hooey.  The writers of the bill of rights clearly intended to preclude a national religion such as the anglican church in England, and in doing so, protect the natural rights of the sovereign citizens.  I do not hate people but I hate how the constitution has been bastardized by the left, for instance how freedom of religion (second clause above) now means freedom from religion to those on the political left.

Who needs an amendment?  We've got the right one now.

44 Chris Wallace is a tool, just like the old man.

He's a sober Chris Matthews.

45 Who needs an amendment? We've got the right one now. Posted by: L Rob in OK at December 12, 2011 09:34 PM (7yvLv) Truth be told, it probably doesn't matter WHAT you write into the Constitution... some Liberal Judge will simply Living, Breathing it to Death anyway.

46 does any of this really matter ? we have 20% unemployment . A pres. who doesn't give a fuck. why debate this shit. i am tired of selling my silver to eat

47 Awe, sorry Gabe. You still a little butthurt about the Perry 'gays in the military' commercial?

48 The approach he's taking makes me a little uncomfortable, but between Huckabee and Bachmann it seems that going Full Retard resonates well in Iowa.

And no, I'm not calling Perry retarded.

49 30 Actually, wouldn't it only take an act of Congress to instruct SCOTUS that their 1962 ruling doesn't include student-led prayer?

Posted by: chemjeff at December 12, 2011 09:30 PM (qVUxp)

Yeah sure they could do that.  And then you could watch the Supreme Court rule that act unconstitutional. 

50 Kids have been disciplined for bowing their heads over their lunches.

Really?

51 He's a sober Chris Matthews. Posted by: toby928© Perrykrishna with tattooed knuckles at December 12, 2011 09:34 PM (GTbGH) My God, did anyone catch his vituperative schpiel at the end of his show today, against Newt? He literally called Grinch The Devil, the Personification of Evil, and implied Newt eats cookies in bed. It was the most appalling bit of calumny I've heard on TV that wasn't coming out of the mouth of some dictator's mouthpiece. What a disgrace Matthews is.

52 But gosh how could anyone accuse you of sticking "I want teachers to require students to pray" into Perry's mouth Gabe.

Buzzion lying again. I never wrote that Perry said he wanted teachers to require student prayer. Buzzion, why do you do this day after day?

53 53 But gosh how could anyone accuse you of sticking "I want teachers to require students to pray" into Perry's mouth Gabe.

Buzzion lying again. I never wrote that Perry said he wanted teachers to require student prayer. Buzzion, why do you do this day after day?

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 12, 2011 09:38 PM (XVaFd)

Really?  You just said he wants that let back in by implication of which Supreme Court decision would need to be overturned.

54 does any of this really matter ? we have 20% unemployment . A pres. who doesn't give a fuck. why debate this shit. i am tired of selling my silver to eat

It's just how the political process works.  Always has been this way, and likely it always will.

There will be plenty of time to go after Obama, both before and after the GOP nominates a candidate.

55 How have courts used the 1962 decision? Have they gone full retard with it, or have they been cautious and deliberate?

56 Is this what's called an Uncomfortable Silence?

57 God forbid children would be allowed to pray in school.  It's not as is the social fabric of our country is torn apart.

Yeah, prayer is the big enemy.

58 the man said he would support an amendment.

I would support an amendment waiving taxes for individuals who win a competitive rifle shooting tournament.

Doesn't mean I typed one up and will have it raring to go by executive order if nominated as a candidate for President.

Once again GM does CNN's job for them by missing the main point in favor of advocating for gay activism.


 

59 ONT is up.

60 Really?  You just said he wants that let back in by implication of which Supreme Court decision would need to be overturned.

You're not the brightest bulb in the box, are you? The decision that Perry wants overturned does not allow teachers (or school districts) to require students to pray. In fact, the policy in Engel explicitly allowed students to not pray and to be excused from the room when organized prayers were occurring.

61 Yes, it is fine and not unusual for a candidate to target certain elements of his base (actual or desired) while broader and grander themes wait on the sidelines. Perry does not need to convince GOP voters to vote GOP. He needs to convince them to vote for him.

62 See, here's where so-called intellectuals like Gabe can't seem to grasp how you can't separate fiscal and social conservatism.

63 OK, let's try a Thread Reboot: I, personally, find overly specific amendments aimed at narrow issues like school prayer a waste of time & energy. They aren't broad enough to enjoy the level of support necessary to see them thru to passage. And who really wants a constitution with 200 amendments aimed at minor issues? Again, I would REALLY like to see one that takes on the definition of the Commerce Clause, and, while we're at it, one that introduces some limit of judicial activism. Right now, we have a system in place that can amount to a Judicial Dictatorship, and it should worry all of us.

64 Repost did bad spacing before- ***** WALLACE: Let me ask you, though, about the specific charge in that commercial. You say that gays can serve openly while children can't pray in school. It was the Supreme Court back in 1962 that decided and it's been upheld since then that children couldn't pray in school. Barack Obama had nothing to do with that. And after repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," are you saying that anyone who supports "don't ask, don't tell" is anti-religious? PERRY: Well, let me back up and say that I would support a constitutional amendment that would allow our children to pray in school any time that they would like. Right now, those activist judges like Sotomayor and Kagan that he put on the Supreme Court, they would continue to say that that is a decision that the Supreme Court should make. I happen to believe that that would be a local decision and that's not the Supreme Court's business to be telling Americans when and how they should pray. ***** I don't see the term require or- "re-institute organized school prayer" -lead by the teachers daily in class which seemed to be the opinion of some of the other commenters in the first thread on this today.

65 How have courts used the 1962 decision?

Have they gone full retard with it, or have they been cautious and deliberate?

See the link on #13 for an example.  The courts have been all over the place with it.

66 Once again GM does CNN's job for them by missing the main point in favor of advocating for gay activism.

What the heck are you even talking about?

67 Also a constitutional amendment would have to be ratified by 3/4 of the states.

68 I don't find prayer in public places to be a minor issue.
I want to defend prayer, the Pledge, the motto, In God We Trust, marriage,  and a score of issues we allowed the Left to take away from us.
Good for Perry for at least bringing up the issue for discussion.

69 Huh. I'm kinda getting the feeling that many of the commenters here think I'm opposed to a school prayer amendment... To those commenters specifically:

You guys are idiots. Try reading what I actually write sometime instead of assuming you know what I believe.

70 @65

I think Perry is trying to say that the federal government should stay out of our business.

71 I work in a public school in Virginia and have attended about 22 graduation ceremonies. I call bullshit that kids can't quote the bible, because I hear it all the time. We also have a moment of silence right after the pledge of allegiance. We have a fellowship club during lunch where kids can meet and pray during school hours (a teacher is not allowed to run the club) All this worry that little Johnny can't get his prayer on is complete bullshit.

72

You're not the brightest bulb in the box, are you? The decision that Perry wants overturned does not allow teachers (or school districts) to require students to pray. In fact, the policy in Engel explicitly allowed students to not pray and to be excused from the room when organized prayers were occurring.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 12, 2011 09:44 PM (XVaFd)

And yet it still has this at the beginning. "state officials may not compose an official state prayer and require that it be recited in the public schools of the State at the beginning of each school day "

And I do not believe that is the actual intent of what Perry is advocating.  I do not believe he is specifically talking about prayer organized by the school.  I think he sees it as an extention beyond this along the lines of what has happened with making it forbidden to have displays and refer to them as "Holiday" rather than Christmas displays. 

73 All this worry that little Johnny can't get his prayer on is complete bullshit.

For now.  All it takes is one lawsuit by an ACLU type and your school would be subject to the whims of a judge- the courts haven't been very consistent on the matter.

74 Gabriel you're the lawyer-and specialist in this area- It's a little like a weapons director telling everyone they are an idiot because they don't know the exact command and control structure.. It's incumbent on you-to fill in the blanks. Instead it's "idiot!" Learned that in trail advocacy did ya?

75 In addition to Perry thinking the Feds should stay out of our business. I think he is also making an argument against activist judges making law from the bench.

76 The ACLU won't touch it because they are not breaking any laws. We also have a gay straight alliance club that meets during lunch. As long as ALL sides of view have equal access to the public facilities, all are happy. Once we start showing preference, that's when people get lawyered up.,

77 Trial advocacy-good goobly moobly...

78 Yes everyone should know all about Abington v. Schemp- PEASANTS!!!!!

79 It's incumbent on you-to fill in the blanks.

Instead it's "idiot!"

Every time I try and "fill in the blanks," folks like Buzzion take it as a fresh opportunity to lie about what I'm writing. It gets quite tiresome having to waste my time correcting him.

80 It's not unreasonable for me to expect that commenters know what the current state of prayer in schools is.

81 Ya well shit-I even pre-studied this and I'm still confused.... There I admit it. Can we talk about the pygmies in the Ituri forest-now that I do know...

82 Do you know the average age of the posters participating in HotGas polls-it's plus 50.... IIRC.

83 Nice commentary. last thirty days I uncovered this internet site and desired to permit you be conscious that iÂ’ve been gratified, heading via your siteÂ’s posts. I should certainly be signing equally as much as the RSS feed and can wait around for another post.

84 10/20 /2010 huffinton post
Attorneys for a Mann Middle School student who challenged a ban on the boy wearing a cross outside his shirt at school said Tuesday that Colorado Springs School District 11 has backed down in the face of a threatened First Amendment lawsuit.

Gabe I think this is the type of things some are concerned over

85

Posted on May 14, 2010 at 4:46 PM

Updated Friday, May 14 at 7:29 PM

Texas City— A Texas City middle school student has found himself at odds with a dress code which prohibits necklaces that look like rosary beads. 

"I think itÂ’s not fair that they wonÂ’t let me wear it," said Christian Thompson, an 8th grade student at Blocker Middle School

In 2005, Army Private Ramon Villatoro was killed in Iraq by a roadside bomb. Thompson and Villatoro were good friends. Villatoro owned a necklace that looked like rosary beads and a cross. After his death, Thompson wanted one just like it. 

"It helps me remember him and makes me feel safe," added Thompson.

But three weeks ago, Thompson was attacked by a couple of boys at his school. A responding school police officer took the necklace away because it looked like gang paraphernalia.

86 above was khou- houston ,texas.

87

Posted by: willow at December 12, 2011 10:12 PM (h+qn

Gee its almost as if there are things you can trace back to that original decision that are so beyond the likely original intent of the ruling that you would have to overturn the original ruling to get that stopped.

88

The Needville Independent School District (NISD) in Texas just isn’t willing to accept that a Houston-area kindergartener, identified in court by his initials A.A., wears his long braids as an exercise of his Native American religion—nor that the U.S. Constitution and Texas’ Religious Freedom Restoration Act (TRFRA) require them to accommodate A.A’s religious exercise.

In November 2007, A.A.'s parents requested an exemption to the school district grooming codeÂ’s requirement that boys have short hair. After months of denying A.A.Â’s requests for this exemption, just days before the school year began in August 2008, NISD enacted a humiliating and uncomfortable policy that required A.A. to keep his hair in a single, tightly woven braid stuffed down the back of his shirt when at school

89 aclu dec 2009

90 of course these aren't about prayer. but the freedom of expression of.

91 buzzion, some will feel free to take advantage of power. maybe?

92 Rosary beads are banned because of gangs, not Jesus. School district in CO backed down because they were wrong. Show me a case where the school hasn't backed down.

93 I don't think Perry is asking for schools to organize prayer.  I think he was noting there is a serious problem with government intrusion and probably disagrees with Malor's take on what the state of the law is today.

Not that there is really something horrifying about a principal occasionally saying a prayer of some kind.  It's not like we don't have religious based oaths and prayers in many government institutions, on our currency, etc.

School is a place where many try to indoctrinate against our culture, and perhaps the federal government needs to be barred from being involved with that.  Let MA be hard left and Texas be moderate or whatever.

Let the community handle it.

What we have now are some places banning kids from thanking God at their valedictory speech.  We have a creeping forced religion of No God-Talk is OK, and I think that's not something I want government doing.

94 Uh, Gabriel Malor, YOU don't know what you are talking about.

I had a child in kindergarten last year, and she was told by the teacher that she could NOT sing songs about Jesus. The teacher didn't say she couldn't sing, but she specifically couldn't sing about Jesus (during play time).

But yeah, you keep pushing all that garbage about how students are free to do their own religious observances.

95 perhaps Perry was just a measure to say our children may be allowed to pray if they so desire

96 Took me time to read all the comments, but I really enjoyed the article. It proved to be Very helpful to me and I am sure to all the commenters here! ItÂ’s always nice when you can not only be informed, but also entertained!

97 not from, so you agree a school should harrass a student?
and that people have to find an attorney to protect their rights?

98 dustin, yeah i wouldn't like the education dept to demand students pray, but i'm not convinced that was Perry's desire.

99 anyway, i'm off to shower. have a nice evening

100 Do the facts ever bother Gabby?

101 "But I doubt he could be that out of touch with reality."

Why the gratuitous snark?

Gabe, how about saying "I doubt he could be that wrong", instead of impugning Perry's sanity?

Next thing, you'll be telling us he's "in denial".

(that mofo Sigmund Freud has a lot to answer for)

102  Uh, Gabriel Malor, YOU don't know what you are talking about.

Uh, why are you freaking out?

103 "But I doubt he could be that out of touch with reality."

Why the gratuitous snark?

Well, either Perry is in the habit of just proposing constitutional amendments off-the-cuff, as some of the commenters here seem to think, or he's actually thought a bit about these issues and is serious about proposing constitutional amendments to correct problems created by the Supreme Court, as I think. The snark was directed at those who fall into the first category.

104 willow - I don't think schools should harass students. When they do, well that's what lawyers are for, to protect rights. see, we agree!

105 I could go for some organized rituals myself, maybe not five times a day, seven or nine at most.

106 This post is fabulous!

107  Nobody cares.  Shut the fuck about it already.

108 Jeepers, what is that crazee Rick Perry talking about? Kids are allowed to pray in school whenever they want!!

A Christian group is suing a New York school district for a spot on a local high school's list of student clubs.

The Frontline Club, a discipleship program based in South Carolina, has brought the legal challenge against the Hicksville Union Free School District Board of Education, alleging that it was denied access to the school because the club is Christian in nature. Without official recognition, FLC is not allowed to hold meetings, make announcements or post its flyer on the campus.

The lawsuit, filed Monday, reveals that Hicksville High School Principal Brijinder Singh told students appealing for the club, "Other schools may have a [Christian club], but I don't want this in my school."

Singh said her decision was based solely on costs. According to Singh, if she recognized FLC, then she would also have to recognize clubs for every religion. The cost of providing an adviser for the religious clubs, she stated, would be "prohibitive at this economically stringent time."

David Cortman, the Alliance Defense Fund attorney leading the lawsuit, mocked Singh's rationale for not allowing FLC on campus. "It's ridiculous that Hicksville High School says it has no budget for a Christian club but somehow has enough for a ping pong club."

109 That crazzeeeee Rick Perry!

An Oklahoma school district is potentially heading to court after a Christian club claims that it was forbidden from promoting its events on campus. As a result of these purported restrictions, the group, called “Kids for Christ,” has decided to sue the Owasso Public Schools.

The Christian club holds morning meetings, which are open to children in kindergarten through fifth grade, at the districtÂ’s elementary school before the start of the schoolday.

“Kids for Christ” describes itself as “a student initiated, parent/teacher sponsored, public school bible club for kindergarten-5th grade students in Owasso, Oklahoma” and the group’s mission statement, via its Facebook page, is as follows:

Our mission is simple, to reach our children with the good news of Jesus Christ, encourage each child to reach their full potential, and help equip our children with the tools to face their every day adversities. We look into the faces of these children and see our future leaders.

While club organizers claim that they were initially allowed to promote their activities through announcements and flyers, they say these allowances changed with the new semester.

Despite the fact that the Boy Scout and YMCA are permitted to promote activities at the school, “Kids for Christ” organizers claim that they no longer enjoy this privilege. Matt Sharp, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund, says that the school district has told the club it can no longer publicize events.

Sharp also says that the district has discouraged club organizers from spreading the word in the community and in local media. “This is a simple matter of a school district targeting a Christian organization,” says Sharp, who is representing the group.

“They have a specific policy on the books that targets religious expression by community organizations,” he continues. Â“The superintendent said they were religious and couldnÂ’t have the same access as other clubs.

While school officials have acknowledged receiving the complaint, they have not had time to review its contents.  Sharp claims that the lawsuitÂ’s goal is to ensure “equal access.”

110 Crazee, crazee fucking RICK PERRY!

A straight-A student at Tomah High School in Wisconsin drew a picture in art class containing a cross and Scripture reference. His teacher removed the drawing from the classroom display and gave him a zero for the assignment, a formal reprimand, and two days of detention. Why? Because his art work depicted religious beliefs, which violated the school’s unconstitutional policy.When members of a Christian club at an Arizona high school requested to share information during morning announcements – like any other student club – about their weekly prayer meetings, the assistant principal said no and promptly tore up the request. Why? Because the announcement contained the word “prayer.”A high school student in Illinois was ordered to remove her T-shirt that said “Be Happy, Not Gay,” which she wore in response to the shirts worn by some of her classmates promoting homosexual behavior on the nationwide “Day of Silence.” Why? Because her t-shirt was found to be “offensive.”

111 EVERYONE GETS TO PRAY IN TEH SKOOLS!!

112 @59 Would you be willing to make that retroactive? It would save me maybe 20 years in back taxes. :-)

113 OK, let's try that again. @ 59 "I would support an amendment waiving taxes for individuals who win a competitive rifle shooting tournament." Would you be willing to make that retroactive? It would save me maybe 20 years in back taxes. :-)

114 Gabe - I think you are being a bit dense here. You insult Perry saying, "Maybe he really thinks that students aren't allowed to pray in public schools anymore." Well maybe some courts think that. This story about a D. Ct. ruling that a valedictorian couldn't pray in Texas (and overturned in 2011 by the 5th Circuit) seems rather germane: http://tinyurl.com/877t3su

115 Gabe - by the way. It took me less than 5 seconds on Google to find that story. Less time than it took you to write one sentence of your post, probably. Maybe a little more due diligence would be appropriate on your part?

116 Thanks for explaining this better, Gabe. I wish you'd done it sooner but then I suppose you wish I hadn't called you a "weasel" at the time - at any rate, that choice of word was shitty on my part so I'll apologise for that comment and hope to call it even.

What you have offered here is the Original Intent tafsir upon what Perry stated. The problem with Original Intent is that what the legislator wants something to say is not always what he actually said.

Perry's amendment as he stated it will probably end up what is submitted to Congress. Its usul al-fiqh will run more along the lines of Strict Constructionism, in my opinion. Translated from my Arabic / legalese weirdness, I stand by the later [non-insulting] comments I made.

Yes schools are going to try to organise the prayer sessions themselves. This will, still, fail.

What is more likely to succeed, is student-run groups as sockpuppets from some pastor or imam. When the school objects to students banging their heads five times a schoolday, or objects to Pastor Pedobear spending too much time on school grounds, the parents will then call in the Feds.

We are, at base, in agreement that Perry is not smart enough and not wise enough to be President at this time. (At least, I think we are.)

117

This is a slippery slope. First they want to allow prayer in school but if we are not careful next it will be strippers and then coccaine.

That's how this religion stuff starts you know.

118 Great post, Gabe. My views were fluid in the last post where we discussed this, as I didn't know much about it, and toward the end, reached the same conclusion you did.

Thanks for summing it up nicely.

119 This is an excellent post. It is very informative. Thank you so much. I'll be a regular viewer.

120 It's willfully obtuse fuckhead lawyers such as Mabriel Galor that have us in the sorry ass state that we are in.

Besides Malor is a conservative in the same vein as Rubin, Frum and Brooks, which is to say, not very.

He is an infiltrator working against the conservative cause as are, in my opinion, most of the guest/co-bloggers.

121 I spent my entire grade school years saying the Lord's Prayer every morning before announcements,  along with the Pledge of Allegiance.  Until 1962,  this was considered constitutional.

I think it important to remember that constitutionality is not permanent. For example,  slavery was considered constitutional until the Emancipation Proclamation and subsequent amendments to the constitution. Women's suffrage required the 19th amendment.

And famously,  Prohibition was instituted constitutionally by the 18th amendment and subsequently repealed by the 21st amendment,  both constitutional actions.  

Perry is simply suggesting following a constitutional process instituted by the Founders to allow major changes in public policy.  I do not understand what the upset is.  If this is a bad idea,  it will not last through the amendment process, or in the rare case that it does (Prohibition) it can be repealed. 

I personally think this is just a diatribe by Gabe to augment the "Perry is stupid" meme I am seeing in some quarters. 

122

I was going to say what Miss Marple said (#124), but she just said it.  Thank you.

I would only add that even if there were organized prayer, individuals could still opt out, just as Jehovah's Witnesses have been allowed to opt out of the Pledge of Allegiance. The situation now is that one student can effectively opt out for an entire community.

123 Sounds to me like Perry is just a goof who doesn't really know what the hell he's talking about. It's just desperate pandering to the evangelicals; it doesn't even make any sense. Practically everything he says in this exchange is off in some fashion or other.

124
I grew up in Texas, where we said the Lord's Prayer every day, and memorized Psalms to boot. Didn't hurt me one bit.

How about the SCOTARDS stick to defining interstate commerce? Once they get that right, we'll let them maybe ban some stuff.

125

Perry: "... I would support a constitutional amendment that would allow our children to pray in school any time that they would like."

First of all, if this is taken literally, it could seriously disrupt classrooms. Any time a teacher would want to give a test, students would suddenly develop a religious fervor, and want to pray for the rest of the day. I suppose he doesn't really mean that, but it's sloppy.

Secondly - as has been pointed out - they already CAN pray (silently, to themselves, anyway) whenever they like, and that's exactly how it should be.

Third, the idea of a bunch of marxists (or Scientologists ... or Muslims ... or atheists!!) leading their kids in prayer ought to make any evangelical's skin crawl, but they just can't help themselves when they think about using the power of government to try to force people to join their ranks.

Perry: "I happen to believe that that would be a local decision..."

Scary stuff. I suppose freedom of speech ought th be a "local decision", too. And the abolishment of slavery. And women's suffrage... This guy doesn't understand how a Constitutional declaration of basic rights is necessary as a check against the down-side of democracy. ("Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner"). What a clown.

Perry: "...that's not the Supreme Court's business to be telling Americans when and how they should pray."

Actually, Governor, it was the Supreme Court who left it up to Americans. You're the one trying to tell teachers and students when and how they should pray. Sorry, but this guy's an a-hole.

126 I pity the poor Christian kids in Dearborn (are there any?) who have to "opt out" of the 5x daily prayer sessions that will result from this. 

124 Miss Marple stated that she said the Lord's Prayer every morning in grade school.  My question is this: what if the teacher (or principal, or whoever organized the prayer) was a Muslim, and had the class say the Muslim morning prayers (whatever they are) instead?  Would that have been OK?  Or considered "constitutional"?  Or what if the prayer was of the "Pray for us, Mary," sort, which would conflict with Protestant students' beliefs?  Would it matter if the majority of that class were Muslim or Catholic?

My dad, a conservative Lutheran pastor, opposed school prayer back in the 80s or 90s (I don't remember which), partly because Lutherans of our stripe (LCMS) are strongly opposed to syncretism (which classroom prayer has in spades), and partly because this has the potential to be used against Christians as much as for them (see my example at the top).

Here's the way I would like to see it:

1) Individually, students at school can pray silently any darn time they please, and out loud any time not during classroom lessons or when another person (such as a teacher, principal, or guest speaker) has the floor.

2) Students can organize themselves and pray together at school any time outside of class (for example, between classes or during lunch, or during club periods)

3) Students, if chosen to give remarks opening an event like graduation, concert, game, etc. may say a prayer, making it as sectarian as they dare (and accepting the fact that they may get booed if it offends their audience).

4) Classroom time may never be set aside for prayer or religious observance.

5) Teachers, administrators, or other employees of the State may not lead or organize students in prayer during school.  Outside of school, in situations where student participation would be completely voluntary, they may do as they wish.

6) Physical symbols of faith, such as crosses, rosaries, yarmulkes, or T-shirts may be worn, as long as they do not specifically and directly target another group for opprobrium (for example, a T-shirt saying "Jesus died on the cross for your sins!" or "Allah is Great!" would be fine, but a T-shirt saying "Don't be gay" or "All Jews will go to Hell" would not... nor, for that matter, would a shirt saying "Christians believe in a mythical sky-god" or "Republicans suck." )

I know lots of people won't agree with a lot of this, or even most of it, but I think it sufficiently walks the line between allowing free expression of faith, and giving unconstitutional preference to particular faiths.

127 127, I grew up in Missouri, and I said the Lord's Prayer every day, too... with my family, at bedtime.

128 For those few who missed it: students CAN (now, currently) pray in school.

So what problem is Perry calling for a constitutional amendment to address?

Go see comment #13. In that case, the judiciary ultimately decided that the prayer at a school event was constitutional. The court decided this because the student-led prayers were not school-sponsored. Is it not unfortunate that we have a judiciary system that will at least consider complaints. The judiciary agreed with Perry. There's no issue to address.

As a conservative - who believes in God - I do not want government (local or otherwise) to lead me in prayer. That is not the government's role. It is very difficult for government-led prayer to not constitute an endorsement of religion.

There may be some complaint about inconsistency in the judiciary on this matter - but that will often be the case on any issue because of the varying fact patterns. Perry should take some solace in the fact that the line isn't so bright as to preclude the result in the Texas case. I don't think it's helpful to go in the other direction in which schools can direct us to pray toward Mecca (if in a heavily Muslim community) or pray to Jesus if in the Bible Belt. The Supreme Court decision only banned school-sponsored prayer. The fight is really over what constitutes "school-sponsored prayer."

129 Malor embrasses himself again.  What an idiot.