1
I'm waiting for God.

2 Borders bookstore has this. Oh, wait...

3
ah, Goodell, I mean

as in Roger Goodell

4 ....yee haw! the borders have been closed!!!!...oh, wait....

5 2003's Tarnation is a favorite documentary of mine. From the Wikipedia entry:

Tarnation is an autobiographical documentary focusing on Caouette's early life and adulthood, as well as his mother, Renee LeBlanc, who was treated with electroshock in her youth. She did not need this electroshock therapy, which resulted in lifelong insanity.

The documentarian put together the film using old photos, Super 8 footage, answering machine messages, etc for $220 on his iMac and it went on to get entered in Sundance and make over a million dollars.

Very interesting story.

6
MAD HOT BALLROOM

Great little documentary about kids in school and, get this, ballroom dancing. They're so cute. Highly recommend.

7

I'll give Guggenheim credit, he did not pull punches either with making Waiting for Superman or during the press junket promoting it.  I saw some of his interviews and he was adamant that the problem is the system and that the system is ruining lives.  It was kind of fascinating to watch the MFM reaction to this since it's not like they could Breitbart him (hi Andrew!) what with Guggenheim actually being the one to win the Oscar for An Inconvenient Truth.  What were they going to say, oh you can't trust him, he politicizes his documentaries?

 

 

 

 

8

I've seen "Waiting for Superman" and I was shocked and saddened.  I cried at the end.  Of course, it was 1:30 in the morning and I had just finished my bottle of val-u-rite vodka.  The little girl in LA wanting to get into that Science Charter School broke my heart.  This documentary spurred me into action and I'm going back to college to finally finish my degree, although it is now changed to teaching. 

If this is what my son is going to face, then I want to become a teacher to try and change the system for him.

9 Just when I thought it was safe to go outside again! {sigh}

10 haha so if you are a teacher and they keep transferring you......you are a LEMON....and now EVERYONE KNOWS IT!!!!!!

11 It was telling when they didn't even nominate "Waiting for Superman" for an Oscar, which I think it richly deserved.  Hypocrite liberals!

12 OT: MSNBC is really wringing their hands that Boner may have outplayed Obama.

13
haha so if you are a teacher and they keep transferring you......you are a LEMON...

just like a pedo-priest

14 All volume knobs turned up to eleventy and the audio of that second video is fighting a loosing battle with the noise from the air conditioner.

15 i've mentioned all this before. My sister in law, the only liberal in my family, is a union teacher. We tend to be non confrontational and not talk politics, but on Easter she just whined endlessly about teachers being picked on. We have a new governor in Michigan. A moderate Republican, a former businessman, I believe he was the CEO of Gateway Computers. He is not a partisan party guy, but more of a pragmatist who is looking to fix Michigan's economy by fighting debt and wooing private business back to Michigan. He has made some very moderate reforms of tenure and asked the teachers to pay more of their health insurance costs, I think it's something like 20% of premiums. The teachers, my sister in law included, are of course screaming like stuck pigs. To know just how self serving these teachers are, I have a sister who sells insurance in the Detroit area. Guess what's happened to her income? I have a brother in law who, for the last couple of years has been through unpaid furloughs, loss of 2 jobs, and having to pay for more and more of his health insurance premiums. Fortunately my brother in law has managed to find new jobs within a few months, because he has needed skills. But given all that members of my family have been through, my teacher sister in law still can't manage to stop her whining about how awful it is that the gov. of Mich. is trying to make it easier to get rid of substandard teachers, and make teachers pay 20% of their insurance premiums.

16 Heh, where did the second inaudible video go?

17 >>>ll volume knobs turned up to eleventy and the audio of that second video is fighting a loosing battle with the noise from the air conditioner. yeah sorry, I deleted that. It wasn't even about the rubber rooms, it was the lemon dance sequence again.

18 I'z here for the Cheating Party. Where's the grub at?

19

Michelle Rhee, who is featured prominently in "Waiting for Superman" as some sort of education "hero" is married to Kevin Johnson, and was responsible for the damage control for him in the sex scandal that brought down the IG Walpin.

As with everything to do with liberals who seem like they are trying to "do good" what you really need to do is follow the money. She may come off as some sort of wonder woman for education but in reality it is all about the money--all the money she and her husband and their friends make off charter schools, which are for profit organizations that stand to rake in huge money.

I could go on and on (and on and on) about the state of "education reform" in this country now being spurred on by films like "Waiting for Superman" but I won't. Suffice it to say, they've painted teacher's unions as the big evil--which can be the case for sure--but there is a whole lot more to reforming public school education then throwing out bad teachers. 

Look, basically I think about 10 years from now people are going to look back at "Waiting for Superman" as the "Inconvenient Truth" documentary of education reform.

 

20 I saw that new documentary Captain America this weekend.  I never knew a lot of that stuff about WW II... fascinating!

And the movie was awesome!

21 Sorry about the wordiness of the previous post, but I'm dreading having to be in the same room with the woman.

22

ace,

unban 80's baby when you get a chance.

thanks

23

All of those are available at Amazon, some in their "instant video" format

24 It's not the teachers, it's the low IQ students that are the problem. You could send these kids to the best schools and they will still flunk out. I'm getting sick of conservatives blaming the teachers and the unions for students who have no interest in learning.

25 i don't know, i think blaming teacher's unions, as awful and evil as they are, may be a bit of wishful conservative thinking.

look, if you're walking in a beautiful, well-kept, pretty suburb, and you walk by their public school, and it's a gang-infested hell-hole with metal detectors and graffiti and the whole nine yards, that is a failing school. but if you pass that exact same school, only this time you do so as you're walking in a dysfunctional, crime-ridden ghetto, it is not a failing school - in fact, it is succeeding quite aptly at representing its neighborhood. the problem isn't with the school, it's with the neighborhood. in fact, it would be far more unusual for the school to be clean and well-kept and be the one such building for blocks and blocks around.

i hate the teacher's unions, i do think they are making a bad situation even worse, and i would love for there to be a nice free-market quick fix to this, but it's a deeper cultural problem that will never get fixed unless the black and hispanic communities get their act together.

unfortunately i have to hurry off now so i can't stick around to argue much, but my two cents anyway. 

26

And don't get me started on Bill Gates and his stupid Gates Foundation education reforms. I mean, I owe the man a lot, since I have a nice life because of his little software company, but he really needs to shut up already about education reform before he does in yet another several years of public school students.

His first efforts at reform failed spectacularly and the kids he and his foundation experimented on did not get the education they deserved, in some cases, like Manual High School in Denver, a lot of the students didn't even finish high school thanks to his "reforms."

27

But given all that members of my family have been through, my teacher sister in law still can't manage to stop her whining about how awful it is that the gov. of Mich. is trying to make it easier to get rid of substandard teachers, and make teachers pay 20% of their insurance premiums.

Posted by: nerdygirl at July 25, 2011 03:08 PM (/+j6L)

I'd be tempted to say, "with all your complaining about this it sounds like you think you are a substandard teacher"

28 Biggest public policy scandal of the last thirty years. The public education system's purpose is not to educate children, but to move money from the taxpayers into the pockets of politicians, via the teacher's unions. And of course, all of those politicians are democrats. Yet black people living in the inner cities vote for them at a 90% rate. WHAT GIVES?? It is insanity!

29 Info gathered from teacher sister in law at Easter: She HATES parochial schools, private schools, charter schools, vouchers, students being allowed to attend school in districts other than their own. Pretty much anything that would allow low income students to have any options whatever to get a decent education.

30 If this is what my son is going to face, then I want to become a teacher to try and change the system for him.

Wrong way to go.  Become something that makes more money, and send him to private school.  Or find some way to home school.

If we really want to see real, substantive reforms in public schools, we have to take away their monopoly no matter the cost to us.  They get paid based on attendance.  Therefore, starve them of students.

Did you know, at least in Texas, you can "home school" up to 4 kids who aren't yours without any kind of licensing requirements? (I think it's up to 4- anyway, it's not many.)  Now- you can even receive compensation from their parents.  Getting certified as a private school isn't even that hard, as I understand it, so if you got enough parents together who would each teach one thing, you could have a pretty decent little school going on, and rescue however many kids from the doldrums of public school.

31 Think about it - the oft-transferred teachers KNOW they suck. They KNOW they're lemons. But they have a sweet deal and they're not giving it up. That's systemic failure in a nutshell.

32 The Cartel and The Lottery are currently available on Netflix Streaming. Waiting for Superman is only available on DVD.

33 I spent a lot of last year working with a charter org here in Philly. they took over failing schools and changed them dramatically. They didn't seek to fire teachers; but ALL - all of them - left rather than teach in a charter school. Regardless, the prison-like schools all turned around. No more police in the halls. Teachers keeping control. All kinds of good stuff. IT IS THE UNION

34 i'll add that iowahawk and others have shown the numbers on this, the supposedly underperforming american public schools are actually outperforming all the rest of the world if you break it out into racial cross-tabs, the only reason we do worse overall is because there aren't significant black and hispanic student populations in sweden and japan or wherever.

35
hahaha @ pickles!

36 I'm racking my brain here...who recalls the principal (or school superintendent)  who sent out an email chalk full of grammatical errors??

I believe it was in Detroit from a few years ago.

Who was this? Gah - I can't remember!

37 Sorry about the wordiness of the previous post, but I'm dreading having to be in the same room with the woman.

Posted by: nerdygirl at July 25, 2011 03:11 PM (/+j6L)

 

Just a tip:  You see her in the room, you have two choices. 1).  Leave the room, or 2) Don't talk to her. 

38 The governor of Mich. also wants the state to take over districts, such as Detroit, that have been abject failures for decades. Imagine that, wanting to do something drastic to fix the Detroit Schools. The bastard.

39 my sis in law just QUIT her la unified teaching job after 20 yrs!!!!!! she couldn't and wouldn't take it anymore...

40

Just a tip:  You see her in the room, you have two choices. 1).  Leave the room, or 2) Don't talk to her. 

Posted by: Soona at July 25, 2011 03:17 PM (Bbn7l)

3) Beat her with a NERF bat until she gives in.

41 @35 ?

42 O/T:

Obama's credibility terminal.

Telegraph
Libya: Britain admits Col Gaddafi could stay on

Al Jazeera
US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman acknowledged that NATO is in a "stalemate" in Libya campaign

43 Going in, I did not think I would be at all interested in Waiting for Superman.  Boy, was I wrong.  It was a riveting attack on the incompetence of and evil within the liberal teaching establishment.  The only down side was that I concluded that  was probably no way to fix this, barring a wholesale revolt of taxpayers and parents.  The children of America have been betrayed by the statists, but then again,  that's what they do, and we keep electing them.
Thanks to the 52% for another liberal triumph.

44

Yes, teachers unions are one component of the "failure" of public school education, but even if you broke them you'd still have all the other damn problems that exist in public schools today--large class sizes of kids for whom English is not the first language, mainstreaming students with developmental disabilities, the inability to remove severely troubled students from the classroom, parents who don't give a damn, etc.

Charter schools are not the one and only answer to the problem. They have a whole host of problems of their own.

Gaaaaaa, education reform discussions drive me absolutely nuts.

45 I'm racking my brain here...who recalls the principal (or school superintendent)  who sent out an email chalk full of grammatical errors??

I can't remember his name but I think we had a post on it here. Maybe search AOS archives?

46 33 I spent a lot of last year working with a charter org here in Philly. they took over failing schools and changed them dramatically.

They didn't seek to fire teachers; but ALL - all of them - left rather than teach in a charter school.

Regardless, the prison-like schools all turned around. No more police in the halls. Teachers keeping control. All kinds of good stuff.

IT IS THE UNION

Posted by: BlackOrchid at July 25, 2011 03:16 PM (SB0V2)

Well, I hope you're right, and I hope it lasts! Don't forget that the amazing turnaround engineered by Jaime Escalante lasted maybe ten years before the community took it back and ruined the school all over again.

47 34. I don't want to hear this anymore. I'm sorry. Again, the charter I worked with. The student body DID NOT CHANGE (not much, anyway). But the entire culture of the schools change. The kids snap to, pretty quick. I don't want to hear anymore that it's because they're latino or black or whatever. They're kids - they NEED structure. Some kids, maybe, can function in a chaotic environment decently. But certainly not most, and definitely not those who have chaos at home, too. But I know - I know! - they have potential! They are intrinsically fine, capable - they are being wasted, used! The parish schools of my grandparents' and parents' youth had a lot of tough cases to deal with. A lot of them became doctors, judges. They came from broken homes, were african-american, no father, maybe even no parents at all. Why was it possible then? Why not now?

48 Videos are probably good, I plan to try to rent them because they are like political books, something that you would not want to watch over and over again.

But the real problem isn't that people do not know what the problem with the public school system is. The problem is that they appear to be powerless to stop it. In the few instances where people have got their ass in the air and voted in some changes and reform, the damn liberal courts step in and undo it.

I have come to the conclusion that there is really only one way to fix this problem. That is to totally eliminate publicly financed education in this country. That will require tow major things and a lot of minor things:

Major: Eliminate the federal Dept of Education and all associated rules and regulations. And then Revise State constitutions that provide for a "free" K-12 education and publicly funded universities.

The eliminate all of the same, allowing those with the gumption to convert to private schools.  Smart kids who had high academic standards could get funding for education through charities.

Children who could not get funding to go to academic schools or who were not suited for academic schools would be apprenticed into programs provided by business to train workers.

49 Waiting for Superman is a film by a liberal, who is forced to confront the fact that while he says he supports public education at dinner parties, nevertheless sends his kids to private schools, and would not even consider sending them to the hell-holes the public school system offers him. I am amazed that he is even willing to admit to his hypocrisy, since according to liberals, hypocrisy is the only real sin one can commit. Hopefully this is a David Mamet-type conversion and we can look forward to more exposes. Maybe even a walkback of that piece of shit Algore movie. But no, you unwashed proles need to fork over more of your pathetic, worn coppers to The Man, so we can keep feeding the incompetent boobs running your local gladiator academy while Emperor Obammodus sends his precious angels to Sidwell Friends at a smooth $30K a piece per year. Because Quaker schools are a longstanding educational tradition for black American families.

50

If I could afford to stay home and home school my boy, I would in a nanosecond. 

On Saturday, we were at the pool and my son started playing with another child and the mom and I started talking.  She asked how old my son is and I said, "Five, starting Kindergarten in 6 weeks."  She asked "Oh really, full day or half day?"  I replied, "Full day at a private school."  Her response, she curled her lip up and replied, "Oh really, and you think this is better than a public school? You better check their credentials."

I smiled (nicely) and said, "I hate the Clark County School District."  Half day Kindergarten isn't even truly have days, it's 2 1/2 hours.  It will take the teacher, 15-30 minutes to calm down 30 5 year olds.  The school he is zoned for offered full day kindergarten for the previous 3 years, now they don't.  If I want to put him in PUBLIC full day kindergarten at another school, the TWELVE Schools closest to us have waiting lists and I still have to pay $350 - $450 a month for PUBLIC school.  So Private school Kindergarten it is.

Her reply to me was "I'm a Half Day Kindergarten teacher." 

We didn't really talk much the rest of the afternoon at the pool, but our kids played.

51 there is a whole lot more to reforming public school education then throwing out bad teachers

True, but without it, nothing else really matters.  If you aren't willing to tackle the most obvious problems, what are the chances that you'll really change things?

52 MAD HOT BALLROOM Soothsayer, I saw that documentary years ago, and I still remember several scenes. The mortification of the short boy, paired with a girl about twice his height. A dance coach telling kids to look lovingly into the eyes of their partners, and some girl looking into a kid's eyes, like she's a vulture staring at carrion.

53 It's not the teachers, it's the students.

54 The Cartel and The Lottery are currently available on Netflix Streaming. Waiting for Superman is only available on DVD.

Waiting for Superman is available on Amazon instant video.

55 Maybe teachers and students should be held accountable and tested for competency. Wait what?

56

Yes, teachers unions are one component of the "failure" of public school education, but even if you broke them you'd still have all the other damn problems that exist in public schools today--large class sizes

I don't know what reforms Gates did, you would know better than I but I did here him say one thing that was interesting.

In 1960 we had 40 adults per 1,000 students in schools accross the US. In 2010 we had 125 adults per 1,000 students. Test scores and graduation rates remained flat.

If we have class sizes that are to big what are the extra 85 adults per 1,000 adults doing?

57
I thought it was cute and interesting, nerdygirl.

58 Yeah, the system is broke in many places, but it's not 100% the public schools fault. Or even the unions. Parents are ultimately responsible for their child's education.

I understand that there are folks who are trapped in a failing school district. But, these same folks still have access to a public library, if they choose.

Personally, I researched the schools and moved to an area that had an excellent public school. I could pay less in rent somewhere else (my rent is too damn high!), but that would mean putting the boy in a poorer performing school.

A poorer performing school within the same school district, btw. Is it not PC  to point out that lower income families are the ones that traditionally populate poor performing public schools? Why would two schools in the same ISD, subject to the same policies, show such a disparity in performance?

My point, and yes I do have one, is that parents must be involved. You have help the kids with the homework, make sure they understand the concepts, supply additional information as needed and, yes, work to counteract the indoctrination. Correct their thinking so that they understand both sides of an issue and not just the side presented by the teacher.

Yeah, it's hard work and yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but that's what you gotta do. And it doesn't hurt to join the PTA or, if you're so inclined, run for the school board.

The system, the teacher's unions, or being poor is no excuse.  They may be reasons, but ultimately your child's success or failure rests solely on your shoulders.

59 Charter Schools are not miracles. My eldest daughter got in to a charter school here in Georgia. My middle daughter was able to get in as well because of the older girl. I let them go to the school for a couple of years. We were happy on the day they were accepted, but we were happier the day we decided to take them out. That charter school sucked. The teachers were terrible, and the administration was a revolving door. The management of the charter were a bunch of idiots who had no idea what they were doing. Don't think that Charter Schools are a miracle fix. They can suck worse than public schools.

60 "It's not the teachers, it's the low IQ students that are the problem. You could send these kids to the best schools and they will still flunk out. I'm getting sick of conservatives blaming the teachers and the unions for students who have no interest in learning."

Oh pickles. I'd love to see you say that about...say...inner city blacks.

61 But all that happens is that all the schools nominate their "lemons" -- their bad teachers -- and pass them over to the next school, which itself passes its own lemons to the next, etc. Like the poker game "Pass the Trash."

The media will certainly do special reports on this, right? After all, they reported heavily when the Catholic Church was doing the same practice with bad priests

62 Her reply to me was "I'm a Half Day Kindergarten teacher."

I've never found anyone so down on Private (or home school) education as public teachers.  There's always "Check their credentials" or "You can't do it on your own..."

And I think, "Really?  In elementary school, I just read the book and learned what I was expected to learn.  Certainly if I were teaching my kids, I could at least read the book along with them..."

Now, I know there are parents who take their kids out of school to avoid actually dealing with their education, but they are- by far- the minority.

63 That was Detroit School Board President Otis Mathis, who eventually resigned after admitting to regularily masterbating in front of the Detroit School Board Superintendent.

64

The system, the teacher's unions, or being poor is no excuse.  They may be reasons, but ultimately your child's success or failure rests solely on your shoulders.

Exactly!  I will be poor as a mofo the next 10 months paying for private school, since it is $200 more a month than the preschool I'm paying for right now, but his success is worth everything to me. 

 

65 "haha so if you are a teacher and they keep transferring you......you are a LEMON... just like a pedo-priest" Hope schools handle it better now, but years ago, guess what happened to "odd " teachers? They would resign their jobs in the middle of the school year, and end up teaching in other districts.

66 I can tell you what's hurting our supposedly excellent (and very expensive) public elementaries in SE PA (and why I'd never send my children there). And I hate even saying it! I hate saying it. It's the ADA. The schools mainstream kids that shouldnt be mainstreamed, take the federal funds for these kids, and basically do as little as possible to support them, and they're disruptive. It's tragic. Really tragic. I am still friends with a bunch of moms who use the public schools and they really hate to talk about it, but it compromises all the other kids' educations, is stressful for the teachers, and doesn't help the special needs kids all that much either. Probably just helps the schools' bottom lines to get that money. It's a mess. We had a locally-famous case of a principal who was confining one ASD child? Without telling the parents! For hours at a time! gah.

67 Any kid with an internet connection and a thirst for knowledge can get all the education they want.  But, it is not cool to be smart, cool to get good grades cool to go to college except to play sports, etc.

khanacademy.org

We need to fix attitudes in order to fix the education problem. Getting rid of the department of education would probably be a good start.  Push responsibility back to the states, even possibly as far as the local governments.  I'm tired of the kid at McDonalds being puzzled how I can give them the correct amount of money before they total the register.

Programs like no child left behind make things worse. Time to learn in spite of the poor state of public schools.

68 glad I could help foment another post, although I was disappointed that these weren't 1,200 word epic essays that Ace's movie reviews normally roll out as. You know, if we cons can't ban public sector unions, maybe we should focus on demanding an attrition rate, so that there has to be - included in the union contract with the gummint - a 6% yearly firing rate (along with my favorite idea of a UCMJ style of rules, investigation, and punishment for the public sector worker).

69 My point, and yes I do have one, is that parents must be involved. You have help the kids with the homework, make sure they understand the concepts, supply additional information as needed and, yes, work to counteract the indoctrination. Correct their thinking so that they understand both sides of an issue and not just the side presented by the teacher.

I love a profession that can blame its problems on those who use it.  Would be great for mechanics to demand that customers change their oil regularly by themselves, wash the car before bringing it to the shop, and even carry the transmission into the shop from the parts department for them.

70 @60 Project much, racist? Gee...kids of all races failing public school. Yup! Sounds like wasted talent, let's fire the "bad" teacher and dissolve the evil union.

71 By the way, I know there are sucky charters. There are charter systems in Philly that are terrible, awful - essentially exist to line Ackerman and her cronies' pockets! But there are some good ones, and just having some kind of option for the absolutely god-awful schools in Philly has been a good thing. It's opening eyes here. Definitely.

72 >>>Don't think that Charter Schools are a miracle fix. They can suck worse than public schools. This is a good thing to point out. Look, what they are is a limited sop to the idea of "reform" to contain reform to one school in 30. But they're not really reformed -- there's a limit to what teachers unions will permit.

73

I am amazed that he is even willing to admit to his hypocrisy, since according to liberals, hypocrisy is the only real sin one can commit.

Follow the money. Seriously. This frustrates me so much because why, when conservatives usually view things with an appropriate level of skepticism, are conservatives willing to jump on this particular bandwagon of education reform? I know it seems easy and convenient to blame the unions, and there are charter schools who are doing amazing things for sure, but are any social problems really this simple when it comes to fixing them?

74
... let's fire the "bad" teacher and dissolve the evil union.

It's a good start, pickles!

75 "25 i don't know, i think blaming teacher's unions, as awful and evil as they are, may be a bit of wishful conservative thinking. " I also blame the "War on Poverty" for discouraging parents from marrying, and encourages uneducated, irresponsible people to have kids.

76 Posted by: mpurinTexas supports Rick Perry, bitch at July 25, 2011 03:24 PM (ignDe)

It does, but the same society that pushed kids into mandatory public schooling (did you know that Texas considered home schooling illegal until the mid 80's?) pushed those kids' parents into being "two income families."  So, now, parents have a hard time even seeing their kids before bed-time, let alone helping them with school work.

Now, personally, I think "suck-it-up, buttercup," and my wife and I plan to home school our kids.  But there are plenty of people out there who have been convinced they have to live this lifestyle that basically means they outsource the rearing of their children to the public schools.  And Public School teachers were a core part of that.  Or, at least, their unions were.

It's a multi-layered problem with no single fix- yes, parents need to take more responsibility.  Yes, schools need to be able to fire bad teachers more easily.  Yes, there needs to be more competition between private and public schools.  It's a freaking elephant to be eaten- and we have to pick which bite to take first.

77

robtr, the number of adults per student change, I would suggest you look to administration from the district to the state to the federal government.

Also, Bill Gates sends his kids to a private school with small class size, if he really wants us to accept class sizes of 50 students to one teacher I have one thing to say to him--his kids go first.

78

It's like in chess. Horsey guys and pointy guys are more important than pawns, so sometimes pawns get sacrificed. But the king is the only piece that really matters.

79 I've never found anyone so down on Private (or home school) education as public teachers.  There's always "Check their credentials" or "You can't do it on your own..." Yes, because the teacher certification process is so strenuous and intellectually taxing. My wife has several cousins who are elementary school teachers. None of them have a single book in their homes. Not even children's books for their children.. I wouldn't let those fuckwits anywhere near my Master Race's education.

80 Here's an article on Otis Mathis' poor writing skills:

http://tinyurl.com/y8paxw7

I'd forgotten how bad it was.

81 You know why we almost went under? It wasn't our cars, they were fantastic and built by highly trained and motivated union labor.

No, it's the customers fault for not knowing how to properly appreciate the exquisite examples of fine engineering and skilled labor we produced

82 Public education was pretty good when I went to school.  They were funded by state districts but were locally controlled.  Parents were directly involved with how the school functioned through the PTA.   But then the fed created the Education Dept., then, what a coincidence, unions were formed.  The problem with schools:  THE FEDERAL GOV. AND THE UNIONS! 

83

Dang it, 78's in the wrong thread.

Anyway, I've long thought the holy grail to be the removal of standardized tests.

84 Those damn moron student unions are killing our student's education. Why just this year moron students almost stopped Gov. Scott Walker from implementing successful reforms !!

For too long have we allowed moron students to donate billions of dollars to political candidates.

Moron students and their powerful unions must be stopped.

85 @74 But it misses the point, soothsayer. If we do that, what effect will it have on school safety, test scores, and college applications? If a teacher flunks half his class because they are illiterate, does that make him a "bad" teacher? The unions are a convenient scapegoat.

86 Yes, because the teacher certification process is so strenuous and intellectually taxing.

If I had my way, the only way to get a Teacher's Certification would be to have a Bachelor's Degree in something real.  No more "Education" degrees, no more "Women's Studies" or "African-American Studies" or whatever.

Degree in: English, History, Math (or derivations), or Science (or derivations).  THEN you can go get your teacher's certification.  And you can re-certify every 10 years.  I'd prefer every 2, but that ain't gonna happen...

87

"You know why we almost went under? It wasn't our cars, they were fantastic and built by highly trained and motivated union labor."

You mean the same highly motivated union labor that goes to a local park and smokes a joint or enjoys a few beers on his lunch break. 

Whatever takes the edge off, right?

88 Buzzion, That's the problem with people who belong to unions. My sister in law is a very good teacher, but like many of them, she defends a union that protects the bad ones and I can't figure out why. I know several people who teach. In most schools there are great teachers who do all kinds of extra work for their students. There are other teachers who beat the kids out the door at dismissal and do no more than absolutely necessary. The bare minimum teachers get the same pay as the ones who work hard. And the entire unionized group endorses this.

89 For the whole low-IQ, bad, misbehaving student thing, there is something like a discussion of this in the Cartel where kids in the Charter school are happy to be in a safe environment and they behave. I think the implication was that student misbehavior is a feature, not a bug, of union thug teacherism.

90 I love a profession that can blame its problems on those who use it.  Would be great for mechanics to demand that customers change their oil regularly by themselves, wash the car before bringing it to the shop, and even carry the transmission into the shop from the parts department for them.


But, if I refuse to change my oil regularly or take care of routine maintenance (either do it myself or pay someone to do it), is it right for me to blame the mechanic when he tells me that the engine is blown?

91 I can't recommend Waiting For Superman.  Michelle Rhee was working on wonderful things here in DC school system, and Mayor Fenty was backing her up on it -- a position of significant politcal bravery that literally ended up costing him his jobs.  Large sectors of the African-American community got incensed at having what they regarded as a simple "jobs program" subject to actual quality-control standards (the point from being not to educate kids, but rather to keep as many people employed as possible), and the teacher's unions (both local and national) went after him hammer-and-tongs.  Result: he lost his primary to Tony Gray, whose brief reign has been filled so many scandals and corruption allegations that it makes one yearn for the relatively honest days of Marion Barry.

DC has only had two semi-decent mayors in the past half-century: Tony Williams and Adrian Fenty.  And coincidentally neither is viewed very warmly by the black community in DC.

92
Wait. Let me see if I understand this.

If a teacher can't teach, we should not hold them accountable for failing in their duty as educators. Is that right?

93 Crap, I mean't I can't recommend Waiting For Superman ENOUGH. 

It's a fantastic film.

94
Or are some kids born with an illiterate gene that makes it impossible to learn how to read and write, therefore not the fault of the teacher who fails in the task of teaching?

95 What pickles and ParanoidGirl said!   I used to blame the teachers, but look at what they got to work with.  And every time the curriculum is "reformed" to make it easier for the dopes, it gets worse.  That's not the teachers' ideas, it comes from the so-called experts - education consultants who haven't set foot in a classroom in years, and pitched to local curriculum committees.  The teachers would be thankful to  just not have so many changes all the time.

All this, to make the slower or indifferent students catch up and close the fucking *achievement gap* that can never be closed.   You all realize that most our tax money is about just that, right?   closing the gap and making the Bell Curve into a straight line?
 

96 And the new mayor of DC is Vincent Gray, not Anthony Gray.   Bad day for me typo-wise.

97 She may come off as some sort of wonder woman for education but in reality it is all about the money--all the money she and her husband and their friends make off charter schools, which are for profit organizations that stand to rake in huge money.

Bullshit.  Charter =/= a for-profit organization.

My two oldest are in a math and science charter high school in Atlanta's northern 'burbs.  Our school has a lottery, no entrance requirements, and provides amazing opportunities to kids willing to work hard.  My oldest took AP Calculus BC as a high school freshman, interned on campus at Georgia Tech as a junior, and is taking classes from Stanford as a high school senior.  At his school, that's no big deal.  The local public schools are good, but they aren't providing that.

Our school gets help through public, private, and corporate partnerships.  We have a brand-new, beyond state-of-the-art building; every kid gets a laptop.  There is no social promotion.  Kids can and do flunk out, despite plenty of extra help and tutoring.  You cheat, you're gone.  For some reason, competence and ethics are strong selling points to corporate sponsors.  And in Atlanta, that's not so easy to find.

Nobody's skimming at our school - the local paper wouldn't allow it.  They've been trying to get us shut down.  They've published articles claiming that we were requiring entrance exams.  We weren't.  They've complained that we don't have special ed students.  At a high-level math and science school.  They complained about a lack of diversity.  Whites are actually underrepresented.

Why would they do that?  Because it isn't fair that the kids who can use it best, because of their ethics, hard work, and intelligence, should have good equipment.  Sometimes it shows, like when my son's online health and PE teacher (working for the county, NOT the school) bitched at his class for having too many opportunities. 

After all, fairness and social justice means the only kids who should be denied opportunities are the ones who could actually benefit from them.

98 "I think the implication was that student misbehavior is a feature, not a bug, of union thug teacherism." Bullshit. It's the union's fault that little Johnny has ADHD.

99 yeah yeah, teachers are good hearted with just a few bad apples in the union apple barrel. Even if that were true, the other problem is that states like NJ have a union system set up where there are tons and tons of non-teaching union thugs, the professional angry-birds public sector employee posing as an administrator raking in 6 figure incomes with posh pensions. The spending per pupil may seem high, but that money is soaked up like other carelessly cast about government money before it gets to the kids.

100 lacyuneralls, It was a board member in the Detroit Schools. Same district that had a board member who "pleasured himself" during a meeting with the female superintendent of schools. Might have even been the same board member.

101 >>>All this, to make the slower or indifferent students catch up and close the fucking *achievement gap* that can never be closed.   You all realize that most our tax money is about just that, right?   closing the gap and making the Bell Curve into a straight line?

The Bell Curve, eh? (That's a red flag if ever there was one.)  So what you're really trying to say here, slightly disguised, is that black people are just stupider on average than other racial groups?  I see.

102 But, if I refuse to change my oil regularly or take care of routine maintenance (either do it myself or pay someone to do it), is it right for me to blame the mechanic when he tells me that the engine is blown?

Posted by: mpurinTexas supports Rick Perry, bitch at July 25, 2011 03:38 PM

The point I was making is that teachers complain that parents won't do 50 percent of their job for them. It strikes me that the oh so hardworking so important teachers who ought to make what CEOs make bitch because they might have to do more than take attendance and read a lesson plan from a textbook.

A lot of us in other professions are handed shit and we're expected to at least make every attempt to work on it.

I'm sorry, but the whole Wisconsin fiasco soured me completely on unionized teachers. They showed their true colors last spring.

103 "Or are some kids born with an illiterate gene that makes it impossible to learn how to read and write, therefore not the fault of the teacher who fails in the task of teaching?" lol. What's the teacher supposed to do if the kid makes no effort to learn?

104 88 Buzzion,

That's the problem with people who belong to unions. My sister in law is a very good teacher, but like many of them, she defends a union that protects the bad ones and I can't figure out why.

I know several people who teach. In most schools there are great teachers who do all kinds of extra work for their students. There are other teachers who beat the kids out the door at dismissal and do no more than absolutely necessary. The bare minimum teachers get the same pay as the ones who work hard. And the entire unionized group endorses this.

Posted by: nerdygirl at July 25, 2011 03:37 PM (/+j6L)

Yes but I'm in favor of being a shit-stirrer.  Hell if you said that to her, she'd probably get all pissy and upset at you accusing her of being such a bad teacher.  And you could probably dig more asking why she's so upset about it since she's spending so much time trying to defend them, it shouldn't be so insulting to her, and they are apparently just as good as her.

105 It was a board member in the Detroit Schools. Same district that had a board member who "pleasured himself" during a meeting with the female superintendent of schools. Might have even been the same board member.

Posted by: nerdygirl at July 25, 2011 03:43 PM (/+j6L)

 

I see what you did there.

 

 

106

Bullshit.  Charter =/= a for-profit organization

It is not bullshit. Do some reading on Kevin Johnson. Do some reading on the fraud cases in Colorado in their charter schools. It sounds like your children are going to a great charter school, good for them but that isn't always the case.

Just like it isn't always the case that every public school is a pit of despair where kids don't learn, teachers are incompetent, etc.

107
lol. What's the teacher supposed to do if the kid makes no effort to learn?

Graduate the student to the next grade, of course!

108 Bullshit. It's the union's fault that little Johnny has ADHD.

You do know that, once upon a time, we didn't care that little Johnny had ADHD, we still expected him to (at least) sit down and shut up while the teacher was talking, right?  And not to be selling drugs or getting into fights?

As long as Public Schools (and, worse, Teachers Unions) are a protected state-run monopoly, schools will be bad.  There may, as you suggest, be kids who really have trouble through no fault of their own (I'm not convinced, but we'll set that aside for now).  But how do you know the difference between them and those gaming the system if parents don't have a real choice to take their kids out of a school where they're failing and put them in some other school?  I bet, in a few years, you'd have schools that specifically cater to ADHD kids, and other schools that specifically cater to Autistic kids (there are actually some of those already), and yet others that specifically cater to thugs (other than military schools...).

The point is that, right now, we can't do that.  And the key to breaking public schools' monopoly is to break the teachers' unions.

109 The point I was making is that teachers complain that parents won't do 50 percent of their job for them. It strikes me that the oh so hardworking so important teachers who ought to make what CEOs make bitch because they might have to do more than take attendance and read a lesson plan from a textbook.

A lot of us in other professions are handed shit and we're expected to at least make every attempt to work on it.

I'm sorry, but the whole Wisconsin fiasco soured me completely on unionized teachers. They showed their true colors last spring.



Ok, I can see that. But my point was that we have a whole slew of parents, for whatever reason, who drop their kids off at school and that's the extent of their involvement in their kid's education. Then, when little Johnny can't read, they weep and wail and blame the teachers.

110
Just answer this question: How do students end up in the 10th grade with no ability to read and write at an acceptable level? How does that happen?

Who is responsible for graduating students, the parents, the students, or the teachers?

111

robtr, the number of adults per student change, I would suggest you look to administration from the district to the state to the federal government.

Also, Bill Gates sends his kids to a private school with small class size, if he really wants us to accept class sizes of 50 students to one teacher I have one thing to say to him--his kids go first.

Posted by: ParanoidWorkingGirlinSeattle at July 25, 2011 03:33 PM (RZ8pf)

He wasn't saying that large class sizes were good. He was saying that with the number of people schools employ right now you could take 25 adults for administration and maintenance and still have enough adults left over for class sizes of 10 students per teacher.

I don't know if its a Union work rules problem, a school board indifference problem, and administration problem or a combination of all three.

I do know it's not a manpower problem.

112 lol. What's the teacher supposed to do if the kid makes no effort to learn?

Posted by: pickles at July 25, 2011 03:46 PM (3cVE6)

 

Simple.  Fail them.  That's what they used to do when I was going to school.  Some students were held back three or four times before they got the idea that failing meant, well, exactly that:  Fail. 

113 98 "I think the implication was that student misbehavior is a feature, not a bug, of union thug teacherism."

Bullshit. It's the union's fault that little Johnny has ADHD. Posted by: pickles at July 25, 2011 03:42 PM

There's another crock of shit pulled out of thin air by "experts". ADHD was invented because kids no longer burned off energy with outdoor recess time. So little Johnny gets fidgety and the underpaid, underappreciated teacher has to take a minute from reading her lesson plan to order Johnny to the nurse so he can get doped up with Ritalin

Every profession has its problems, it's time for those in the education field to suck it up or find another line of work

114 I think Waiting for Superman is just the liberals latest bogeyman. They are desperate to explain the black-white achievement gap that has persisted ... well, as long, as we've had objective tests to measure it. First they said it was because blacks were poor. Then because they were segregated.

But now we've had many decades of middle class black kids going to school alongside middle class white kids -- and yet the achievement gap remains. And the schools are generally run by white liberals who desperately want blacks to succeed, so they can't really blame racist teachers.

So now the liberals are turning on their own and saying it's the teachers unions and that bad bottom 5% of teachers ruining everything. Perhaps.

I think the simpler explanation is more likely. That the well-documented racial/ethnic differences in avg IQ are what produce the achievement gap. Which is why poor Chinese kids, on average, do well in American schools despite growing up in poverty and often enduring racist treatment from the other kids.

These IQ differences are one reason I now support explicit quotas in Affirmative Action programs. Right now we pretend everybody is equal, but demand ethnic balance that mirrors the population. And the way that is achieved in things like firefighter jobs, is by dumbing down the test so enough blacks can pass. Problem is then too many whites then pass and they get selected at random. So you don't get the best of the whites and asians.

Explicit quotas mean you could get the best whites among the candidates, and the best blacks, and the best asians, etc, etc.

It sucks to do this. But if all groups aren't equal I think it's the least bad solution. Right now we pretend all groups are equal, try not to think about the decades of test score differences, and dumb down the test.

(There is increasing pressure to dumb down the bar now because so few black law school graduates are passing it.)

You can just select the objective best. And that would be my ideal. But I no longer believe that is possible in America, especially for govt jobs, since it leads to racial imbalance due to racial/ethnic trait differences. You get the NBA (overwhelmingly black) or CalTech (ultra asian and white).

Especially as the lower achieving groups (blacks and hispanics) grow in political power and #s, they will demand favorable treatment. Explicit quotas at least would allow us to select the best from each group.

It's an ugly solution to an ugly fact about the world -- there seem to be persistent avg IQ differences between racial/ethnic groups. Just as there are avg height differences and a myriad other traits.

We can either pretend these facts aren't true. Or we can try to craft a society that functions as well and as peaceful as possible given the harsh realities of the world we live in.

I look at Waiting for Superman as an example of epicycles. We are looking for ever more elaborate theories to explain away data we find too uncomfortable to face directly.

115 robtr, oh I thought you were referring to his speech where he said that he thought that there was no reason that class sizes couldn't be up to 50 students.

116 The Miracle Worker was on TCM last night, great movie, and yes, in a perfect world, if every teacher were like Anne Bancroft then even the deaf dumb and blind kids would all grow up to be renowned public intellectuals. But in the real world, you have to acknowledge that you can't count on charter schools and great teachers to go above and beyond to save children who have been abandoned and betrayed by their culture and their family.

Call it what you want, JeffB., and be all high and mighty and self-righteous about it, but how much you wanna bet that if you took the worst failing public school, left it exactly the same as it was, with all its crappy teachers and idiotic administrators, but simply magically switched out the student body overnight with the poor Jewish kids from the neighborhood I grew up in, who by the way came from immigrant families who dealt with far greater evils in their lives than any American blacks, the kids would do just fine and, in fact, excel? But please, keep living in your morally superior world, it'll help you sleep better. After all, just look at those terrific, high quality charter schools Asians in this country have been going to for decades and decades. oh, woops.

117 Thanks Ace.  I have been pushing "The Cartel" for a few months now.  I will definitely check out the others.

The thing I liked the most about "The Cartel" was how they gave the best pro-voucher argument that I have ever heard and showed that it would be good for the public schools as well by reducing class room sizes and forcing them to compete.

One thing that the Cartel did not bring up and I don't know about the other films either is the fact that you can't get rid of bad students anymore. They mentioned that good students are afraid to go to school because of violence, but they didn't point out that we give these assholes 35 second chances and still can't expel them.  No child left behind equals every child left behind.

118 I'm probably going to be flamed but here it goes: My mom was a public school teacher until about 5 years ago. She went to school at night to get her Master's just so she could get out. Now, we're in Florida where the union doesn't have as much control as in some other states. So here they abolished tenure at least a decade ago and they don't have nearly as hard a time getting rid of the crummy teachers as a lot of other places. Anyway, Mom was a great teacher by all measures. Her classes loved her. They all scored well on standardized testing. Her colleages and superiors loved her. She still gets stopped in the grocery store by former students that just want to say thanks. So, she wasn't some substandard teacher looking to blame someone else. And she insists that a very substantial part of the problem, at least in Florida, is disrespectful kids coupled with parents who want to blame all of their children's behavioral issues on the school. Add in a dash of school administrations that are so terrified of lawsuits that they refuse to implement any discipline and won't back teachers up when they are in the right and you've got a mess of epic proportions. That is not to say that there aren't other problems. Mom says the union, even the token one we have here, is still to blame for a lot of nonsense. She works in admin at her local district now and is a supervisor. So she really gets a good dose of nonsensical union rules that impede production. But according to her there is a very good deal of poor parenting out there and fear amongst the various school districts that exacerbate the existing problems with the system itself. For me and mine, we're sending our kids to parochial school. If we can't afford it, we'll home school. But I'll literally starve myself to pay for an alternative before I put my children in public schools.

119 CalTech selects purely on test scores. Which is why it's basically all asian and white. Berkeley and other top public California schools had to institute de facto quotas for asians.

At a top school like Univ. of Virginia, an asian kid has to score about a 1500 SAT to get the same odds of admittance as a black candidate who gets 1100. White kid has to get about 1400.

The universities try and hide all this data, but occasionally some Freedom of Information Act lawsuits get the data out.

A big problem is any written test shows racial/ethnic differences. The average black high school graduate reads about the 8th grade level.  Just imagine a group of whites competing for the same job, one reads at the 12th grade level and one reads at the 8th grade level. Of course the better readers are going to be the preferred candidates.

But disparate outcome lawsuits mean that outcome is illegal if the two groups have different skin colors.

120  robtr, oh I thought you were referring to his speech where he said that he thought that there was no reason that class sizes couldn't be up to 50 students.

Posted by: ParanoidWorkingGirlinSeattle at July 25, 2011 03:56 PM (RZ8pf)

No he was just pointing out that the number of employees per 1,000 students over the years has increased by a factor of 3 and test scores, graduation rates and school safety has either remained flat or gotten worse.

121

Thanks Ace....Thise type of nonsense has been on my mind alot, lately....I'm not quite sure why, but I think it has to do with the question, why would any educated citizen vote for an Obama presidency?

The answer of course is, we're running short of educated citizens. and THIS is by deliberate design.

122 Most teachers are firm committed leftists and enthusiastically embrace post-modern dogma.

So after exalting single motherhood, career first feminism, destruction of traditional family units, the welfare state, drug usage, self-indulgence, destruction of discipline, and the veneration of pop culture, they're upset that they have to deal with the actual consequences of their leftist religion

There's the bed, hop in

123

Posted by: Mandy P. at July 25, 2011 03:58 PM (vGmv/)

Well Mandy, I don't think anyone here is actually thinking that if we could just break the teacher's unions backs we would be pumping out schools of Einsteins.

124 There's little wrong, really with American education.  Once one is willing to accept the fact that the "problems" we spend billions on are racially-based, intractable, and political plutonium, much of what underpins our modern edu-hysteria becomes quite clear. 

 You're better off reading Steve Sailor, if you  want insightful, fact-based analysis, than wasting time on the above films.

Of course, if you want pablum oriented at finding "solutions" to impossible-to-solve "problems" in order to preserve the center-right's eternal  optimism regarding America's future, then these documentaries will be right up your alley.

125 123

Posted by: Mandy P. at July 25, 2011 03:58 PM (vGmv/)

Well Mandy, I don't think anyone here is actually thinking that if we could just break the teacher's unions backs we would be pumping out schools of Einsteins.

Posted by: buzzion at July 25, 2011 04:04 PM (oVQFe)

I could care less about breaking up the teacher's union, but they are the one's that have stopped the implementation of a real voucher program.  The voucher program should make schools more competitive...even the public schools.

126 Posted by: buzzion at July 25, 2011 04:04 PM (oVQFe) Yeah, I know that. But as someone up-thread said earlier, we can't lay all the blame at the union's feet either. And look, my mom the former teacher is an extremely conservative Republican. And she's not exactly fond of the union, either. Every time this issue comes up (which it does regularly with all the educational reforms Governor Scott wants to put in place) she is very emphatic about this issue. I just thought it might help to get the perspective of an actual decent teacher. Other side of the coin and all.

127 like most things with lefties, their vehemence, arrogance, and smug is directly proportional to their ignorance of an issue. At least the smart union thugs in NJ as shown in the Cartel are in on the action. True, student misbehavior can be bad and maybe some Charter Schools are bad, but the system in some states is basically one stop short of a shake-down, where the only difference between the no-show construction gigs of the NJ Sopranos and the NJ teachers union is that the unions work indoors. The Cartel was eye opening.

128 As for the Bell Curve, good book, not racist, at least not how the left wishcasts it (the point being was that we need to accept limited outcomes for low IQ and spend more on high-IQ's because they can go farther). But even if kids out there are stupid, they should still leave school being able to read at an 8th grade level, or do home ec things like cook and balance a checkbook, eh?

129 @Links is right. And Sailor has written some very good pieces on this. Most of America, on both the left and right, are willfully blind on this issue. Preferring not to see what is in front of their face. And maybe that's the best solution. Some problems are best ignored, especially if there's nothing you can do about it.

130

The one factor that is continually overlooked is that teachers need the talent to teach.

 

No amount of education, certification, seminars, experience or anything else can replace a person who has the basic talent of being able to convey ideas and concepts to another. 

 

YouÂ’ve either got it or you donÂ’t.

131 @24
Yeah there are some kids that refuse to learn but one thing critics never seem to tackle is the simple fact that teachers simply CAN NOT BE FIRED, even for sexually related offenses. This is the part critics ignore; there are really, really bad teachers who are so protected by the union contracts they can get away with anything.

Blame students all you want for public shool's failures but do not forget that there are definitely problems related to the unions.

132 Posted by: jwest at July 25, 2011 04:20 PM (qeYI9) That's very true.and something else my mom and I have discussed frequently is how teaching has become and easy fallback career for people who don't do well in other fields. Mom worked full time to support us after my dad died and somehow managed to get her bachelor's by going to night school. Before she married my dad she had always wanted to be a teacher and she has always been passionate about helping kids, so it was very easy for her to decide to major in elementary education. But the vast majority of the other teachers at her school had degrees in other fields and when they didn't cut it got teaching certificates. I know a few other teachers that are in the field because it was their plan b. They are all significantly less enthused about their jobs than the people who actually wanted to be teachers.

133 Sounds like a chicken or egg argument. My opinion is the left's teaching model and unions came first.

134 Parental involvement is a major factor in students succeeding. I'm not saying the parents should have to teach material at home, like some of the homework intensive lessons sent home in some programs. What works is when the parents impress on their children the importance of studying and education, and putting forth an effort. In the struggling school that I taught, I could count on my fingers the parents who stopped to meet me on report card pick-up days, and these were usually the parents of the students who were doing well.

135 THANK YOU for posting about this.  I saw these and was even more shocked and infuriated than even I expected to be - which is saying something.  I thank God every day I can send my daughter to private school (no I'm not even close to being rich, I just don't eat).

As if unions haven't destroyed enough in this country by chasing out entire manufacturing sectors (and then they blame "fat cats" for "shipping jobs overseas!") they are destroying our future by undereducating the vast majority of this country's children, especially compared with other countries.  Unions are fucking EVIL.

136 @Links is right.

Links is not right.

His thinking seems to be: there's an achievement gap between the races, so therefore there are no problems with education and let's not fix our broken school systems.  I don't get that.

Look at what happened in Wisconsin.  The school system has been taken over by leftism.  (It's even reached higher education, which is graduating huge numbers of committed leftists with no useful skills.)

There are serious problems which cannot be blamed on underachieving minorities, as Links would do, like the fact that bad teachers cannot be fired, and parents have little choice in where their kids go to school.  Don't tell us to ignore those just because Links thinks we aren't aware enough of the problems in the black community.

137 Unions are fucking EVIL.

Yeah, pretty much.

But they can be useful in mafia states like, say, Cambodia, where the only way to stand up to the mafia is with another mafia.

138

I used to teach at the college level, mostly freshmen.  I experienced how the students' ability to write simple paragraphs worsened, year by year--and listened to their stories (amusing, in a horrible way) about their high school teachers' lack of teaching--which I could tell, anyway, because of my students' terrible writing and reading skills.

I became more and more jaded, and angrier, and then I realized that even at the college level, we were subtly encouraged to put empathy and how-should-I-say political interests ahead of actual teaching.

I went into teaching in the hope that I would embue others with a  lifelong love of reading good literature, and be able to guide others into growing their ability to express themselves.  I was wrong.  I quit.

I still wish I could teach, but the politics; the nonsense; the ridiculous essays chosen not for the authors' excellence, but for some dimwitted "contemporary value"; the inability to adhere to high standards because we had to put the students' "self-esteem" above their best interests (and believe me, the students generally knew they were being screwed over)...I can't teach anywhere any more.

One of my neighbors is a teacher at a public middle school.  Her stories about the incessant politics, the degradation of standards, and the terrible lack of discipline make me think my decision was right...

 

139 I did see Waiting for Superman, by the way.  It should be called Looking for a Bogeyman, because we don't want to admit the stuff about teh students and their families. 

140

Oh, yeah, my neighbor the middle-school teacher also laments the high percentage of ESL students who have managed to spread whooping cough, TB, and other diseases amongst the kids...

And that more often than not, when she does try to impose some discipline in her classroom, the principal and other admin come down on her for it, as she's interfering with the students' self-esteem...she's an older person, and remembers when she could tell the class to quiet down and they would without them calling her names and otherwise ignoring her...

141 It should be called Looking for a Bogeyman, because we don't want to admit the stuff about teh students and their families.

I don't get this logic.

It's true that the collapse of family and various other social ills are a large part of the problem.  (Theodore Dalrymple has some great essays on these topics.)

But, that means we should ignore other large parts of the problem?  The school system side of the problem is the part we have the greatest ability to fix.  There are known, serious problems there.  Why should we not fix them?

142 I have a college friend who's a teacher. The first school he taught at had a large black population. Kids simply didn't do their homework. They were insubordinate in class. He was fairly often cursed at, and even threatened with violence a couple times. He was, and still is, a big liberal with tons of white liberal guilt. He felt horrible. He felt like a racist every time he had to ask some black kid to not shout and curse in the classroom. He felt like a total failure and was close to quitting teaching. After two years he managed to switch to a school that is mostly white and asian. All of a sudden he's considered a model teacher. His kids do great. He's actually developed a decent side business as a tutor to asian immigrant kids, especially Koreans. Same exact dude. In one school he and his kids are a failure. In the other he and his kids are a huge success. What's the difference? Both schools are public schools in the same county in the same state. Everything is the same. Except one has good kids and the other doesn't. Bad kids produce bad schools.

143 "I don't get this logic."

We're blaming the unions for problems not of their making.  In fact, after being virulently anti-teachers union for a while, I've come to see their demands as combat pay.    But we want very, very badly to find a scapegoat we can all hate on.  Why?

144 Waiting for Superman was okay, but I am surprised that so many people missed the scene where the little girl's teacher was "teaching" (indoctrinating) her about how the Indians took great care with their land and environment and it was all ruined when the white people "settlers" came. Pure BS. I would have loved to see the rest of the "lesson."

Maybe if teachers actually taught these kids they would know how to read and write and could compete with people who went to private schools. But it's indoctrination all the way, and to hell with the truth and the kids' futures.

145 We're blaming the unions for problems not of their making.

Not me.  I'm not blaming them for everything.

I am blaming them for the problems that are of their making, such as the inability to fire bad teachers, or lack of school choice.

But we want very, very badly to find a scapegoat we can all hate on.

Are those two examples I listed above real problems or not?  Yes or no.  If yes, then let's fix them.

146 He was, and still is, a big liberal with tons of white liberal guilt. He felt horrible. He felt like a racist every time he had to ask some black kid to not shout and curse in the classroom.
...
Bad kids produce bad schools.

These two sentences are somewhat at odds with each other.

He was fairly often cursed at, and even threatened with violence a couple times.

Yes, in modern schools teachers aren't allowed to maintain order.  Seems like something we might consider fixing, no?

I don't think the school system can magically heal the racial achievement gap.  And that's not its job.  But so what?  There are a bunch of obvious problems that are easy to describe and can be fixed, and you guys keep saying "but, kids from bad backgrounds are still gonna do worse".  So we should ignore the glaring, obvious, fixable problems?

I went to a mostly white school with high rates of kids going on to college, etc.  And still, there was tons of incompetence and wasted time and money.

147 "But, that means we should ignore other large parts of the problem? The school system side of the problem is the part we have the greatest ability to fix." But why should we spend all of this money and time "fixing" the problem if the improvements are negligible? And don't bring up the black and Hispanic achievement gap. Prole whites are doing poorly too. There are plenty of stupid people in every race. Smart and motivated kids can thrive in almost any environment. If your school is too unsafe and you don't want to send your kids there, then do what you would do if you lived in an unsafe neighborhood: move.

148 But why should we spend all of this money and time "fixing" the problem if the improvements are negligible?

Because I believe the improvements will be tangible.  We could do much better.  (e.g. I think it's nonsense that single-variable calculus is the highest math ever taught at most high schools.)

Smart and motivated kids can thrive in almost any environment.

In which case, why are we taxpayers paying so damn much for this?  I want my taxes lowered.

Even if you're right that we can't do a better job educating kids, we can sure do a better job managing the cost of educating kids.  It's ridiculous how much of our states' budgets are wasted in inefficient school systems.  That needs to change.

149 @147 The black and hispanic achievement is what all these reforms are trying to fix. Sure, some whites do poorly. But the achievement gap is that, on average, blacks and hispanics do worse than whites. Of course, whites do worse than asians, but nobody cares about that gap.

And it's not poverty. Middle class blacks do worse than middle class whites. Poor blacks do worse than poor whites. Hell middle class blacks do worse than poor asians.

The whole point that Sailor and the Bell Curve people make is that these racial/ethnic group average differences in IQ are real and enduring. Pointing out a stupid east asian or white kid and a smart black kid doesn't say anything about the avg.

You have to be able to think statistically to understand the world.  We have decades and decades of data. School test scores, SAT, military aptitude test, IQ test, bar exams, LSAT, GMAT. Pretty much every test shows achievement breakdown of east asian > white > hispanic > black.

Which is why top schools are constantly struggling to find qualified blacks and hispanics and offering ever more remedial courses  -- and using de facto quotas to limit the # of asians they let in, so they don't become filled entirely with Wongs, Kims, and Hus with 1500+ SAT scores.

150 I want to hear some of these status quo defenders explain why this "lemon" problem of being unable to fire bad teachers is acceptable.  Clubber Lang?  pickles?  jeanne?

The black and hispanic achievement is what all these reforms are trying to fix.

Clubber Lang, you seem to be obsessed with race.

I want school districts to be able to fire bad teachers, and my reasons have nothing to do with race.  I want to pay lower taxes.  Again, my reasons have nothing to do with race.  I want teachers to focus on math and literacy instead of leftist dogma.  Not because of race.

I oppose affirmative action of any sort.  I can guarantee you that the reforms I want to see, which most conservatives want to see, are just about better schools that cost less.  That's all.

151 Fuck you sandy burger, if you want to be a fuckwad and call me a racist do it motherfucker, don't dance around your fucking libel. I am just reporting known facts. I'm not obsessed, I'm explaining why liberals make movies like Waiting for Superman, and that has a great deal to do with the racial achievement gap. If you are too fucking stupid to understand that then that's your problem. I want to maximize all Americans potential, of all races. But I don't expect all groups to have the same potential. Most of the bullshit the schools do is about closing the racial achievement gap. This is a fact. They are the ones obsessed with race. And they are convinced the racial achievement gap is due to racism on the part of whites and the American system in general. I believe it's due largely to innate, genetic differences. Just like some ethnic groups are taller than other ethnic groups. It doesn't make any group better than another. IQ is just one measurable trait of human beings, like height, or endurance, or eye color. If you give a top-notch education to all Americans ... we will still have a racial achievement gap. And most Americans, left and right, will say this is unacceptable, we have to do something, blah, blah, blah. Because most American believe a racial achievement gap is unacceptable and must be "solved". I don't believe this can be "solved". I think it's just a fact of life, so we should try to think of ways to maximize our potential and coexist with this fact instead of fight it. Without Affirmative Action we'd have vastly fewer blacks at top school or at high positions in govt, the military, and corporate America. I wish we could have a color-blind society. But the people at the bottom of the achievement gap aren't cool with that. Neither are the people at the top. And they all vote. So, to sum up. Fuck off and learn to read.

152 don't dance around your fucking libel

Oh, relax.

If you give a top-notch education to all Americans ... we will still have a racial achievement gap.

So?  What people are talking about is ways to improve the education system (such as being able to fire bad teachers), and you keep jumping up saying there will still be racial achievement gaps.  Well, so what?

"The union prevents firing bad teachers."
"That won't make the races equal!"
"There are too many overpaid administrators."
"There will still be racial disparities!"
"Parents should be able to choose among schools."
"The bell curve!"

I get your point already.  And so what?

Most of the bullshit the schools do is about closing the racial achievement gap. This is a fact. They are the ones obsessed with race.

I agree.  That's part of the leftist status quo in education.  I want to change that model, and it seems like you keep objecting to any progress by pointing out racial disparities.  I don't get it.  Or maybe you're actually not objecting?  It's hard to tell.

I believe it's due largely to innate, genetic differences.

I think that probably has little to do with it, but I don't really care; it has no bearing one way or the other on whether or not we should take on the teachers' unions and improve the schools we pay so much for.

153 Wow i really found this to be an interesting read; thanks for sharing

154 "The black and hispanic achievement is what all these reforms are trying to fix. Sure, some whites do poorly. But the achievement gap is that, on average, blacks and hispanics do worse than whites. Of course, whites do worse than asians, but nobody cares about that gap." I recognize that. I'm not completely sold on HBD but I think it's helpful to point out to hardcore blank slatists that white students are also responsible for the failing schools phenomenon. "I want to hear some of these status quo defenders explain why this "lemon" problem of being unable to fire bad teachers is acceptable. Clubber Lang? pickles? jeanne?" Because we don't live in a fantasy world. Teachers are not paid well and they have to put up with a lot of shit from their union and the students. Waiting for Superman makes it seem like all these "lemons" are illiterate child rapists. Can you blame a teacher for not giving a shit if his students can't be bothered to behave and do their homework? I had some really terrible teachers when I was in school but so what, I got through it and I was very successful in university. "Because I believe the improvements will be tangible. We could do much better. (e.g. I think it's nonsense that single-variable calculus is the highest math ever taught at most high schools.)" I don't. It's not like everyone should go to college. Some people are meant to be Wal-Mart greeters. "So? What people are talking about is ways to improve the education system (such as being able to fire bad teachers), and you keep jumping up saying there will still be racial achievement gaps. Well, so what?" You are ignoring Clubber Lang's main point. The racial achievement gaps (which do exist whether you believe in HBD or not) are the raison d'etre for the school reform movement. Even if you fired all the lemon teachers in America, that still wouldn't fix the problem. Why fire some teachers whom you deem "bad" because they had the rotten luck of being stuck in a failing school? "I agree. That's part of the leftist status quo in education. I want to change that model, and it seems like you keep objecting to any progress by pointing out racial disparities." Good luck with changing that model, bud. Pointing out the disparities is still relevant because even when leftists increase the spending in public schools, sometimes even matching the spending per student you see in mid-tier private schools, not much changes. You still have uninterested kids, you still have kids dropping out, and you still have illiterates in the 10th grade. Throwing money at the problem does not make it better and the conservative solution of charter schools is no different.

155 It's not like everyone should go to college. Some people are meant to be Wal-Mart greeters.

I agree 100%.  And our education system needs cater to their needs, too.  (Right now, it continually tells them they're failures, even if they're working as hard as they can.)  We need a paradigm shift in education, and our sluggish unionised system is too calcified and leftist to be able to do it.

The racial achievement gaps (which do exist whether you believe in HBD or not) are the raison d'etre for the school reform movement.

I guess this is what's annoying me about you guys.

Because they want to reform schools for racial reasons doesn't mean I want to reform schools for racial reasons.  My motivation is really quite simple: the current system sucks.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems like you guys keep saying something like this:  "We oppose school reform because it's about race."  Well, get this through your heads, damn it: it's not about race for everybody who wants school reform.

This is why I say you and Clubber Lang are race-obsessed.  It's not some cryptic way of calling you racists.  It's just that people like me are talking about reform for reform's sake, and you keep talking about things that people like me aren't saying or thinking.  I'm talking about genuine structural problems, and you guys keep bringing it back to race.  Why?  Because that's what leftists dwell on, and you assume that's who you're talking to?  But, get this: I'm not a leftist; it's not about race for me.

And for heaven's sake, will one of you please answer the question I asked in comment 150:  Are you or are you not OK with how difficult it is to fire bad public school teachers?  Yes or no will do.  Do you or do you not think parents should have more choice in which school their child attends?  Yes or no.

Pointing out the disparities is still relevant because even when leftists increase the spending in public schools, sometimes even matching the spending per student you see in mid-tier private schools, not much changes.

Yeah, I know, and I want to cut spending on public schools.  But I also want to change their structure so that they actually work well.  The leftists are doing it wrong, as always; the public school system is definitely not failing due to a lack of cash.

156 "Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems like you guys keep saying something like this: "We oppose school reform because it's about race."" No, that is not what I am saying. I'm saying that reforming schools is pointless because the money and time spent will not improve the results. Let's not act like school reform hasn't been tried either. We've tried to increase funding, we've tried to increase the amount of vouchers we could give out, we've tried to attract high quality teachers with Teach for America and similar programs, and let's not forget No Child Left Behind. We have tried many things and this whole "get rid of the lemons" stuff is pointless. Lemon teachers are a tiny minority in most schools; you aren't depriving a child of his education just because he is stuck with one or two bad teachers. Part of the problem is that some people idealize teachers the same way they idealize nurses and if a teacher or nurse doesn't live up to their high standards, then that makes them "bad". The fact is that some teachers just treat their jobs as just as job but some people can't accept that.

157 Let's not act like school reform hasn't been tried either.

It has been tried.  It's called private school, and it works.

We've tried to increase funding, we've tried to increase the amount of vouchers we could give out, we've tried to attract high quality teachers with Teach for America and similar programs, and let's not forget No Child Left Behind.

And none of that addressed the real structural problems.  All of those so-called fixes are just smoke and mirrors.  And none of them dismantle the parasitic teachers union.

Your defeatism on this issue is weird.

158 One last thing:

I went to a pretty "good" high school, got good SAT scores, and went on to a four-year university, like most of my classmates.  Success, right?

Well, it was only years later, as an adult, that I began to fill in the many gaps in my education, things I should have learned as a child.  I didn't even know basic civics!  Most Americans don't.

I wish I had received a better education.  It's possible to do.

159 Late to this party, but Clubber Lang seems to have the right of it. It's very difficult to overcome a culture that is apathetic or even hostile to education. There is only so much a school, a teacher can do. Also, allow me to point out that whenever columnists spout of about the state of education in this nation, they typically use the most left leaning districts in the bluest of states as their examples of all that is wrong with public education. Keep that in mind when you hear that teachers are paid a gazillion dollars a year, are impossible to fire, have unions that are just shy of having enough power to rule the universe, etc. As for charter schools, they are, no better than regular public schools. Oddly, they are subject to the cultural physics that apply everywhere else in the world. This is worth the read in its entirety: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/