1 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

2 Damn but I wish he'd done better in the debates.

3 20% is still too high.

4 20% is still too high.

Gotta start somewhere. If you kill Leviathan (instead of starving it slowly), then you cut loose too many people too quickly.

Killing Leviathan might still be the right answer, but that's a lot of change you're talking about all at once.

5 20/20? isn't that a commie lib ABC MFM show? Tolja Perry was golldanged RINO!!!

6 Fuck the debates. Romney's nice and polished and would be a great candidate if you want someone to simply manage the decline of the United States. Go Perry.

7 It's a start, after a couple of bad weeks seems like Perry is getting back on track...

8 @steevy, Yep.

9 as a person that hires someone to do my taxes, even when i sign the form , knowing i've been completely honest. I just never know .. talk about the fear of g-d.

10 The plan starts with giving Americans a choice between a new, flat tax rate of 20% or their current income tax rate. How would that work, precisely? In other words, those that pay no taxes now can choose to continue to pay no taxes? The new flat tax preserves mortgage interest, charitable and state and local tax exemptions for families earning less than $500,000 annually, and it increases the standard deduction to $12,500 for individuals and dependents. So for most people nothing much really changes, since most people in the middle class pretty much only take these deductions. And it looks like this plan actually increases the number of people not paying any taxes at all... I'd prefer a a pure consumption tax, with no federal income tax at all.

11 6 Fuck the debates. Romney's nice and polished and would be a great candidate if you want someone to simply manage the decline of the United States. Go Perry.

Everyone always forget how awesome I am. If it wasn't for me, Mitt would be polling at Bachman numbers. RESPECT THE HAIR!

12 WOOT!!  Only 20%??  That gives me tremendous wood.

13

Gabe, at the very least you have to admit that Cain enlarged the overton window to where the discussion isn't just about tinkering with the tax code, but it's getting into a real examination about what taxes are for, how the means they are collected affect our liberty and prosperity, and what is the correct level of taxation we should be working with.

 

I am a believer in the Fair Tax, but will not disparage Perry's Flat Tax scheme considering the aweful mess we have to contend with now.   

14 as a person that hires someone to do my taxes, even when i sign the form , knowing i've been completely honest. I just never know .. talk about the fear of g-d.

Ask 10 tax attorneys for their opinion on a subchapter and you'll get 17 responses.  All of which are arguably correct.

15 Perry's right about the overwhelming importance of stopping the growth of federal spending... he needs to talk about targeting specific agencies for outright elimination, and the need for zero-based budgeting.

16 And, it really isn't fair to say that Cain only addresses half the problem with 9-9-9 - from the Cain website on spending: t is no secret that federal government spending is out of control. They view the American taxpayers as a bottomless piggybank for their wasteful programs and expansion of power. And we the people will not tolerate it any longer. The massive debt caused by liberal policies will be passed onto our children and grandchildren if we do not stop it. They will be stuck with the tab for the government takeover of health care, industry bailouts and failed stimulus packages. They will be the ones approached with outstretched palms by the Chinese to pay back the billions upon billions we owe them. Each generation of Americans should seek to leave behind a better and more prosperous nation for the next, not saddle them with debt from reckless spending. Though it might not be politically popular to modernize and eliminate some of our entitlement programs, responsible leaders should be willing to do it all the same. They must be prepared to make tough choices and learn to simply say “no.” This can only happen when our elected officials stop being politicians and start being leaders. Simply put: there is no “Department of Happy” in Washington, D.C. Nothing should be off the table. Every federal agency, every government program and expenditure must be reviewed and revised with a keen eye and a red pen. Leaders should be willing to shrink budgets by target percentages, and those charged with implementing those changes must be held accountable. -=-=-=-=- Okay, there aren't any specifics there, but neither are there any in Perry's plan. So let's not pretend that Cain did not put entitlements on the table.

17 15 This.More important that the tax code.

18

Mad Dog 20 20? I'm in!

19 Its a start, glad everybody is talking about getting rid of the current system.  I would have went with a 15% for indiv. and biz and gave a $15000 indiv deduction (30k for married) with no other deductions, but its all just a guess, get it flat and then tweek it down the line.  Keeping a dual choose system is silly I think.

20 This is why people atarted looking at Perry in the first place.I hope it isn't too late. Rick Perry is the real conservative in the race. I may not like his stand on immigration, but on 9 issues out of 10 we agree. We'll never have the perfect candidate, but Perry is the best out there right now.

21 and the need for zero-based budgeting.

THIS!

22 Fer a second there, I worried you might say "Perry counters 999 with 888" Whew.

23

he needs to talk about targeting specific agencies for outright elimination, and the need for zero-based budgeting.

Yep.  He can start with Dept of Ed and EPA.

24 O/T: Obama in Vegas: "We Can't Wait For an Increasingly Dysfunctional Congress to Do Its Job, Where They Won't Act, I Will

25 Oh, it's a PLAN you heartless motherfuckers want?!  Well here ya go, I've got a plan too!  Been sitting on it the whole time, honest!  I just didn't want to roll it out until now, even when they asked me about my economic plan at a debate about economics.  At least I think I was at that debate.  Hell, I dunno; I've just been so sleepy lately....

26 Fap

27 I don't like Cain's tax plan because it adds a new tax. No thanks, just lower the rates on what we got. No new ones, please, I don't care how low they are.

28

Mad Dog 20 20? I'm in!

Take a swig every time Cain says 999.

(I'll pick you up at detox.)

29 How would that work, precisely? In other words, those that pay no taxes now can choose to continue to pay no taxes?

Yeah, but that won't last.  Psychologically, it'll work fine.  There'll be the taxes for most middle class taxpayers (20%) and then the parallel system that the cronies and the Buffetts of the world take advantage of.

Yeah, I think the standard deduction is too high.

30 I'd prefer a a pure consumption tax, with no federal income tax at all.

Posted by: CoolCzech
..............
That doesn't work.  Sales taxes are avoided with black markets.  Tax revenues would drop precipitously and black market sales would skyrocket.

31

I'd prefer a a pure consumption tax, with no federal income tax at all.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 24, 2011 08:59 PM (niZvt)

That would be nice.  But the federal income tax will not go away without a repeal of the 16th amendment.  Even if you were to get a Congress and President to come along and set it to zero, another Congress and President will eventually come along and raise it up again so long as the amendment is part of the constitution.

32 The devil's in the details, but so far so good. Especially this: "ObamaCare, Dodd-Frank and Section 404 of Sarbanes-Oxley must be quickly repealed" Mmmmmm ... tasty

33 3 20% is still too high.

Posted by: steevy at October 24, 2011 08:56 PM (fyOgS)

devil, details...

Does this also get rid of the payroll tax?  If so? its a win... if not, loser.

Also this will have people gaming the two systems against each other... which helps the ultra rich, and poor, but will slam the middle class.

If'n its gonna change... its got to change... otherwise it just means there will be MORE CPAs because you have to figure your taxes TWICE.

34 Perry's still my guy.

35 @30: Well, state sale taxes work without creating huge black markets, so what's the difference?

36 Oh and Rick Perry is still ahead of Mitt Romney in the releasing of his plans from the date of his announcement.

37 That doesn't work.  Sales taxes are avoided with black markets.

Which is why I choose to buy my milk and bread from the shady guy with the unmarked van in the Walmart parking lot...

38 That doesn't work. Sales taxes are avoided with black markets. Tax revenues would drop precipitously and black market sales would skyrocket.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at October 24, 2011 09:06 PM (UTq/I)

In todays economy?  I don't see it...

Unless the black marketers are suddenly taking Visa and Master Card.... which makes hiding the money kinda difficult...

39 I don't like Cain's tax plan because it adds a new tax. No thanks, just lower the rates on what we got. No new ones, please, I don't care how low they are.

Yeah, adding another tax into the mix just gives future politicians another way to stealthily increase taxes.  They'd start with the corporate rate, then add a new tax bracket, then deductions... then we'd end up with what we have now, only with a VAT on top of it.

40 Does this also get rid of the payroll tax?  If so? its a win... if not, loser.

Why...?

41 How do you build a fence on a river?

42 Perry is my guy. Sent him some money last payday.

43 I get that Perry wants to give Americans the choice, but I don't think that's a good idea. It just makes things more complicated when his plan should be simplifying things.

Please rethink that part, Perry.

44

My plan also abolishes the death tax once and for all, providing needed certainty to American family farms

I don't have the numbers and would gladly be corrected but as I understand it, any farm property in Ohio valued over $500,000 would be subject to a one time 50% tax upon the death of the owner.

 

45 35 @30: Well, state sale taxes work without creating huge black markets, so what's the difference?

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 24, 2011 09:08 PM (niZvt)

Magnitude.

46 40 Does this also get rid of the payroll tax? If so? its a win... if not, loser.

Why...?

Posted by: AmishDude at October 24, 2011 09:09 PM (T0NGe)

Because it raises the effective Rates the Government takes, per job, to almost 35%... with the employee and employer portion.

47 Black Markets require a steady supply of union goons and criminals to rob the trucks and shipping containers.

48 Flat tax should be in the 10- to15% range.No deductions,no exceptions.Simple.

49 So the 53 per cent or so who pay nothing are going to go for this? Hello President Obama POTUS for life.

50 41 How do you build a fence on a river?

Posted by: jewells45, tea party terrorist at October 24, 2011 09:09 PM (Z71Vg)

Its called a MOAT... Hello...... been done...

51 >> Because it raises the effective Rates the Government takes, per job, to almost 35%... with the employee and employer portion. Marginal rate, not effective rate.

52

No consumption tax or sales tax. It's too easy to raise taxes. That's all we have in Washington and while I like it (because you can cut back on your tax bill when you have to) they are always raising it by a penny per dollar as they say when they are selling it.

So far it has been raised from 2% to 9.8%

53 Well I can see some big ticket items like cars being sold under the table in order to avoid the taxes.  But the typical groceries purchase?  Yeah I can't see a lot of black market fraud going on there.

54 43 I get that Perry wants to give Americans the choice, but I don't think that's a good idea. It just makes things more complicated when his plan should be simplifying things.

Please rethink that part, Perry.

Posted by: KG at October 24, 2011 09:09 PM (LD21B)

Don't some already have a choice though?  Depending on the circumstances I can just file using a 1040EZ form and not go through a bunch of individual deductions, or go with the standard 1040 form.

55 I think this plan might increase IRS employment because of the 2 systems.  Just don't like that part, people would still be doing 2 statements to see which one pays the least.  Just flatten it, dude.

56
In other words, those that pay no taxes now can choose to continue to pay no taxes?



Exactly.  Those who aren't currently paying taxes or are net beneficiaries can continue to do so, while those who do pay taxes can choose the method that reduces what they owe.

This will help reduce the deficit by decreasing overall Federal revenue. 

Wait...

57 I get that Perry wants to give Americans the choice, but I don't think that's a good idea. It just makes things more complicated when his plan should be simplifying things.

Please rethink that part, Perry.

I don't think it would be that big a deal- we already have to make that decision in choosing between the standard deduction or itemized deductions.

58 49 So the 53 per cent or so who pay nothing are going to go for this? Hello President Obama POTUS for life.

No - they have a tax rate, but they get refundable tax credits etc. that nullifies their tax bill.  Take away the tax credits and they get the privilege of actually paying taxes.

59 This is the stupidest plan I have ever heard of.. even worse than 9-9-9.

The plan starts with giving Americans a choice between a new, flat tax rate of 20% or their current income tax rate. The new flat tax preserves mortgage interest, charitable and state and local tax exemptions for families earning less than $500,000 annually, and it increases the standard deduction to $12,500 for individuals and dependents.

A choice?  So, do all the old income tax laws remain in place?  The only way someone who itemizes their income reaches their "current income tax rate" is by - itemizing! - you effin idiot!

If that is the case, then all you have done is added another level of complexity to the tax system - requiring many households to calculate their taxes twice! - under the new regime and the old!

60 How do you build a fence on a river?

Posted by: jewells45, tea party terrorist at October 24, 2011 09:09 PM (Z71Vg)

Alligators and piraniahs.

61 Now all Perry has to do is become a competitive candidate again.

62 This simple 20% flat tax will allow Americans to file their taxes on a postcard, ...

Bullshit, not with all those exemptions still in place and limits based upon the amount made.  Dammit Perry, if I can pick the lies out of your press release during a commercial, want to you think your opponents will do.  Dumbasses, all of them.

63 Marginal rate, not effective rate.

Posted by: Andy at October 24, 2011 09:12 PM (z6jMn)

But it also gets rid of most deductions... so it would be closer to the effective rate.

Because the whole idea here is to simplify the system, isn't it?

64 Geeez Louise.. So - we either get Romney or Obama for another 4 years.. Perry is out.

65 This simple 20% flat tax will allow Americans to file their taxes on a postcard, Well he DID say something about removing the Federal govt. from our daily lives. Great! Let's get this stuff on the table. I DOUBLE-DOG DARE the Dems to answer it.

66

Don't some already have a choice though?  Depending on the circumstances I can just file using a 1040EZ form and not go through a bunch of individual deductions, or go with the standard 1040 form.

Posted by: buzzion at October 24, 2011 09:12 PM (GULKT)

Yes, so shouldn't a selling point for any plan of his be to make it simpler?

67

Sounds good. I'll be interested to see some of the details.

68 want = what ,  et al. I'm sure.

69 Start with a choice between the two, then sunset the old Byzantine system in a few years.

Give the IRS people time to find new jobs in cattle butchering or sheep raping or whatever the hell those maggots can be retrained for.

70 @43: yeah, exactly... how does it really "simplify" the tax code by having - I guess - the old and new codes side by side? Do away with the old rates altogether, bring the one rate down to 20 percent, and make sure everyone pays something... even if it means an additional nominal tax rate for the poor, like 5 percent or something.

71

w all Perry has to do is become a competitive candidate again.

give Herman Cain another week, that'll happen on its own.

72 20-20? Been doing it for years.

73 Mitt Clinton will come out with the 19.50/19.50 plan tomorrow.

74 Why do these guys overthink this stuff?  Boggles my mind. Just make it a simple flat tax.

75 1 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure. Posted by: steevy at October 24, 2011 08:55 PM (fyOgS) Thank God. Always should be first comment. Always.

76 I say cons suck, less they denounce God.

77 OT McRib is back!!!

78 I don't think it would be that big a deal- we already have to make that decision in choosing between the standard deduction or itemized deductions.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at October 24, 2011 09:13 PM (SY2Kh)

Yea, then add Perry's option on top of all that. I don't know, seems to me that he's going about this the wrong way.

79 Does he mean standard exemption instead of standard deduction?

80 Start with a choice between the two, then sunset the old Byzantine system in a few years.

Indeed. Tax reform won't be a sweeping one time fix. It'll take time to convert to a new system

81 64 Geeez Louise.. So - we either get Romney or Obama for another 4 years.. Perry is out.

He's been out.  He's got the money to stay in the game for a while, but it's hard to see how he catches fire again.  At this point he's Michelle Bachmann with $17 million (now there's a frightening thought).

82

53 Well I can see some big ticket items like cars being sold under the table in order to avoid the taxes.

That's already done.  You sell a used car for $1500, but you officially sell it for $800 or something so you only have to pay taxes on that 800 and nothing on the extra 700.

You know besides Louisiana where you can no longer pay in cash.

83 I see everyone else here picked up on the same bullshit.  Dammit Perry.  Dammit.

84

Don't some already have a choice though?  Depending on the circumstances I can just file using a 1040EZ form and not go through a bunch of individual deductions, or go with the standard 1040 form.

Posted by: buzzion at October 24, 2011 09:12 PM (GULKT)

Yes, it sounds a bit like having the option of filling out the EZ form at all income levels.

This will help reduce the deficit by decreasing overall Federal revenue. 

Wait...

Compliance costs.  H&R Block and related companies will shrivel because ordinary taxpayers would just do the 20%.  You'd stop wasting time doing tax forms or paying for Turbo Tax.

And, like I said, the non-20% tax would quickly become pilloried as the plaything of the rich.

85 Do away with the old rates altogether, bring the one rate down to 20 percent, and make sure everyone pays something... even if it means an additional nominal tax rate for the poor, like 5 percent or something.

Posted by: CoolCzech at October 24, 2011 09:16 PM (niZvt)

I was thinking that too, some piddling tax rate to help stave off the inevitable gnashing of teeth on behalf of the poor.

86 @69: I'd like to know what he proposes doing as far as simplifying business taxes is concerned. For starters, he should treat all businesses in the same way. THAT would make the code simpler. Of course, once you start eliminating different deductions and exemptions, etc., the tax payers will start to howl.

87 Even if Perry doesn't win, stuff like this will at least help pull Romney to the right.  Not ideal.... but an improvement over reality as of yesterday.  More of these sort of things.

-side note-  I do understand the need to balance the caution on policy specifics the left can distort and propagandize.  See Cain/Paul Ryan treatment

88 72 20-20? Been doing it for years.

Posted by: Hindsight at October 24, 2011 09:16 PM (+XVQe)

Hey now..... at least I aint BoonesFarm...

89 Right now, all of the tax applications have you figure out your itemized deductions, then tell you if it works out better for you to go standard or itemized. Is there any reason to think that they wouldn't just do the same for this, except that now you have three options?

Maybe there are parts of it I don't get, but having parallel tax systems that you can switch to when it's to your advantage seems like a recipe for... I'm not sure. But it's not good.

This is an awful idea.

90

U read the article and it looks like he is saying you can keep your old tax rate but not your old deductions. So if a poor guy is paying 10% he will actually be paying 10% - the deductions listed.

So it isn't two tax codes, it just gives a break to the poor.

91 But of course, the main thing is to cut the damn spending and wipe regulations. I'd rather hear his plans on that, but he should probably hold onto those till later.

92 The greybeards and little old ladies who get scared by the Democrats and the fuckin AARP shills every election will need a few years more of comfortable fucking by the government before they can embrace something new.

Their car get 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way they like it!

93 Indeed. Tax reform won't be a sweeping one time fix. It'll take time to convert to a new system

Posted by: Ben at October 24, 2011 09:17 PM (UvdzB)

Maybe, but during Reagan's time, it was greatly simplified in a single year; not like this bullshit.

94 77 OT McRib is back!!! Posted by: steevy at October 24, 2011 09:17 PM (fyOgS) Why do they make McRibs seasonal, anyway? Is it the old pork spoils easily in the summer thing?

95 and maybe the it keeps captial gains at 15%

96 77 OT McRib is back!!! Posted by: steevy at October 24, 2011 09:17 PM (fyOgS) I have never had one. Must try, while they last. I laughed when I saw the commercial for Jack in the Box. They showed pictures of tacos that look nothing like what you get. (Not that I ever go there, buy eight for four dollars, and eat them for three days),

97 steevy.. no offense, but how can you eat one of those things?  I ate one once years ago and it was horrid.  I shudder to think what actually goes into it.  But then again, I am a taco bell freak so what do I know?  Nachos bell grande.. best hangover food EVER.

98 God, I hate your cons as much as you do...

99 97 Actuallly,I don't like them either.I think they bother muslims though,so I'm all for them.

100 Wow. Choices are scary.

An extra half hour away from the TV while figuring out if the 1040 is more or less than 20% is terrifying.

101 Now all Perry has to do is become a competitive candidate again.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at October 24, 2011 09:13 PM (d3TgT)

That's a long fucking reach, right there.

102 What's the standard deduction for married filing joint return?

103
OT:

Obama is currently roaming the streets of LA, screwing up traffic while he flits from fundraiser to fundraiser.  Heard on the news that he and his entourage had an "impromptu" stop at Roscoes Chicken and Waffles to pick up some wings.

No joke.  Actually happened. Trying up rush hour traffic for a wing stop.

104

Maybe, but during Reagan's time, it was greatly simplified in a single year; not like this bullshit.

Posted by: dogfish at October 24, 2011 09:20 PM (N2yhW)

Give me a break.  Reagan's "greatly simplified" tax code wasn't the paradigm shift like this proposal is.  He's proposing a major new tax system.

105 So when Perry says you can keep your old tax rate, is that like Obama saying you can keep your old health insurance?

106 74 Why do these guys overthink this stuff?  Boggles my mind. Just make it a simple flat tax.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at October 24, 2011 09:17 PM (xOy1A)

Unfortunately, too many people like the deductions game, they actually think they're getting free money trying to max out the refund. Sad but true.

I'm glad Perry out something out there he can point to, but really glad he made the point that the problem is spending, the tax code shit is just window dressing. Now I'd like to hear some actual Departments that will wither under a Perry administration, though I doubt he'll actually name one he'd axe, for more or less the same reason as above.

107 Posted by: robtr at October 24, 2011 09:19 PM (MtwBb)

So, it's the tax rate that gets carried over then, and just the deductions he lists.

Hmmm.

108 20 20 20 4 hours to go, I wanna be sedated.

109 "...they actually think they're getting free money trying to max out the refund."


What, you mean we're NOT??!!

110 One thing we can cut immediately?Teaching African men how to wash their junk.

111 Perry's on a comeback.

112 steevy- lol.. I am with ya there brother!

113 Let me get the whiteboard out again and show you how bad Perry is, too. Just like Cain. I mean, I like Perry, but the whiteboard never lies. Just doing my job as non-partisan analyst.

114 Aid to Pakistan Aid to Gaza.

115 Wow. Choices are scary.

An extra half hour away from the TV while figuring out if the 1040 is more or less than 20% is terrifying.

Yea, just what America has been dreaming of, an alternative maximum tax. In all fairness though, at 20% flat with mortgage and taxes deductions, I probably would come out several K in the black.

116 Aid to Egypt.

117 >> I'd like to know what he proposes doing as far as simplifying business taxes is concerned. This is the detail I really want to see. Are we going to stick with the current business tax clusterfuck (MACRS, ADS and E&P depreciation schedules, a bajillion different business tax credits, 50% meals & entertainment deduction, uniform capitalization rules, etc.) or can we move to something that makes sense like GAAP pretax income x 20%?

118 Whatever we cut, I think we really need to save Cowboy Poetry.

I mean, really. What's the Federal government for if not for celebrating our Western heritage?

119 Actually, do read the article, it's full of goodness. Only thing I would really change is to lower the income tax rate to 15%, but this is a good start.

120 I kinda like it.

Have my tax guy do a quick 1040 and get the total. Then if it's more than 20% say "Fuck it, send the post card".

121 I don't like deducting state taxes. It's a blue state bail-out.

122 An extra half hour away from the TV while figuring out if the 1040 is more or less than 20% is terrifying.

I get the snark, but if you have to explain it, its going to be hard to campaign on.

123
during Reagan's time, it was greatly simplified in a single year
Posted by: dogfish



Personal taxes maybe.  But business taxes got more complicated because of changes made to drive businesses investment.  ACRS, MACRS and what have you.

124

First thing......kick all and I do mean ALL of the various fed agency CZARS to the curb. Next, slash the budgets by about two thirds Dept. Education, Dept of AG, Kill the NEA, HUD, Homeland Security! Slash the  EPA..(really want to just close that bitch down fer-shizzle) and any other Bloated Fed programs....to the BONE and I do mean THE BONE!! Then and only then will we as a nation be setting a better course. Perry sounds like he is warming up to real answers with this tax plan ...but it MUST go farther than that to seriously address the BONE OF DOOM in the room...

 

jus sayin   

125

So when Perry says you can keep your old tax rate, is that like Obama saying you can keep your old health insurance?

It's essentially letting the less well off keep the old tax rate as it is.

I don't get the complaints here. Do any of you honestly think one of the Republicans is going to run on a proposal to raise taxes on the 47% who don't pay any federal income taxes? Are you drunk?

Yeah, that'll be a fucking winner. " I will raise your taxes and my opponent Obama won't".  Use that all the way to the White House.

I don't understand how people still don't get that what the candidate says and what he'll do in office are two different things.  Honestly isn't a great policy in politics.

He saw what happened to Cain's plan and added an out for the less well off so the media can't spend all day saying, "you'll cut taxes on the rich but raise them for the poor".

It has no bearing on what he will actually do in office. It's simply something he has to do politically.

This is a decent idea. It lowers taxes for the people who create wealth and allows the people who don't to keep their low to non existent rates, but more importantly it's about cutting spending. It doesn't matter if the rate is 90 percent or 9 percent if the government keeps spending at the current clip. God doesn't have enough money to fund our spending.

 

126 Unfortunately, this plan is a result of pandering to the Tea Party contingent who is vehemently against a progressive tax system.  The problem is, a progressive tax system is the only one that makes sense.

A multi-tiered flat tax is the only one that makes sense to me and would be acceptable to a majority of the voting public.

Like this:  (my numbers are bogus - they would depend on reaching revenues equal to the current revenues - this is just an example - and numbers for filing jointly might be different)

Income        Tax Rate
--------        ----------
0-25k             3%
25k-40k         8%
40k-55k       11%
55k-120k     13%
>120k          18%

No exemptions - no deductions - no credits for kids, etc...

127

Perry's on a comeback.

I wish. 

You know.. if I could give him some advice it would be this.

1. Stop attacking Romney.  Act like you are running against Obama (you are). In fact, don't attack anybody.  You are your own man, you don't need to do that.

2. Stop talking about the "great state of Texas".  We all get it.  Texas is the fucking bomb.

3.  Be prepared.

 

128

Just looking for information because I'm confused.

Under 9-9-9 better half and I would pay 9% for our business tax (we own a "small business") 9% for our personal income tax and 9% consumption = 27% total

Under Perry's Plan better half and I would pay 20% for our business tax (again, we own a "small business") and 20% personal income tax = 40%

 

129 I don't like deducting state taxes. It's a blue state bail-out.

I flip flop around on this.  Yeah, it cushions the blow in high tax states, which just encourages the leeches, but again, it's money the citizens never gets his hands on so why should he pay taxes on it?

130
raise taxes on the 47% who don't pay any federal income taxes? Are you drunk?
Posted by: Ben



AKA Obama voters.  Are they really going to vote for a Republican anyway?

131 But do get rid of the EITC.

132 I get the snark, but if you have to explain it, its going to be hard to campaign on.

It is going to be hard for anyone not promising to give away free shit to win this election.

More than half the country talks like Hank Williams Jr but really thinks like Peggy Joseph.

Perry will have to prove this will save the average family dough.

133 I don't even care if I am around the 20 percent - it's worth it to me to not have to sweat it. I'm self-employed. And I spend over $600 a year on an accountant just for taxes. I LOVE THIS PLAN

134

18 percent. Cutting spending to 18 percent. That should be the main takeaway. even if we can get close to that, it would be huge

135 126 I want simplification.Flat tax is one way to simplify it but as you point out there are others.Getting spending and entitlements under control is the first priority.The tax code can wait.

136 Did you see hermsn cain's new ad. It's hilarious. roflamo

137 Perry's 20-20 would kill the AMT, which is already a huge gain.  As more and more people started going with the 'flat' portion, the other system would likely begin to die off.  I don't think Perry's plan is perfect by any means, but people that think that there is the political will to really 'fix' the tax code with a true flat tax are dreaming. (sadly )

138 If y'all really want a RINO keep leaning to Mittens. If you want someone who uses their mouth prettier than a 20 dollar whore...vote for Mittens. If you want someone the GOP Establishment hates and so do the leftists, Perry is your man. I'm still voting for him, screw the media and screw Mittens, as well for that matter. Cain is proving himself to be a loose cannon that flip-flops more than Mittens.

139 and no offense to Texas morons.  Hell, I lived there.  It is a great place, but we don't need to be reminded you are governer there 20 million times during a debate.

140

Real problem with this plan? it will never get through Washington.

Washington is built on being able to chose Winners, and losers.  Its all about special exemptions, and Campaign Funds.... take that away and Lobbyists will have no real job... and Congressmen will not have anywhere near their current power to deliver.

DOA.... Plan is Dead on Arrival.

141 God, hate is an evil word, won't you give me guidance

142 forget the debates.   Send money.    We are moving into phase 2.  The weekly debates kept all the dwarves in the race.    Brit Hume said it best.  The price of a plan ticket and dry cleaning your suit gets you a million dollars worth of TV.   Not any more.

143 My priority is to get government out of the business of picking winners and losers (otherwise known as "corruption.")

A flat tax (and tiered flat rates) does this quite well, because it doesn't discriminate.

144

AKA Obama voters.  Are they really going to vote for a Republican anyway?

No way. I know a ton of conservatives and republicans  who fall into that category

It's not so clear cut.  

145

Posted by: steevy at October 24, 2011 09:31 PM (fyOgS)

Sorry, but you will NEVER get Politicians to cut spending, UNLESS you starve them of tax funds...

146 Nora @128, it's not that simple. Cain's 9% business tax is on a different base than Perry's 20% so they are, pardon the phrase, apples and oranges. Also, Cain's business flat tax applies to all businesses (I think - his site isn't clear on this) but Perry specifically says his 20% rate applies to corporations (i.e., a reduction of today's 35% rate).

147

Cain is proving himself to be a loose cannon that flip-flops more than Mittens.

Yep.  Watch the poll numbers start dropping.

148 Do any of you honestly think one of the Republicans is going to run on a proposal to raise taxes on the 47% who don't pay any federal income taxes?

That's why you make the personal deduction big enough to start and then tell them congratulations you employer also will be able to keep you employed.  Flatten, simplify, its the only way to be sure.

149 Hey, what about me?

150

Did you see hermsn cain's new ad. It's hilarious. roflamo

It had to be fake. There is no way that is real.

151 Yeah, what about him?

152

No way! Fuck all these ideas and proposals that only partially reform the system!  If they'd just enact [my pet tax fantasy that only appeals to serious FisCons, and not even all of them], then we'd be cooking with gas!

/s

Seriously, folks - what seems like a good idea, what makes sense to a principled liberty-first conservative, well, these things scare the absolute hell out of the public, and once the moron 52%ers start paying real attention, we get 4 more years of Barry...unless you can get the tip in, just a little bit, so they can all see that the sky isn't falling.  Remember - the people who ultimately elect the president don't just have 0 economic knowledge - it's a negative number, when you consider how many things they believe that just aren't so.  Radical change is fun to shout about on the internet, but if the average indy voter wanted radical change, they'd probably be engaged somewhere prior to the week before election day.

153 Posted by: AmishDude

It was functionally a significant improvement.  A "flat tax" that isn't flat isn't a paradigm shift.

154 If you like your reaming, you can keep your reaming.

155

"Posted by: Andy at October 24, 2011 09:34 PM (z6jMn) "

Thanks!  I need this stuff explained to me like I am 9!  It's really confusing at times.

Appreciate your help, you moron!

156 Steevy- you are a riot. You crack me up.

157 Also, Cain's business flat tax applies to all businesses (I think - his site isn't clear on this) but Perry specifically says his 20% rate applies to corporations (i.e., a reduction of today's 35% rate).

Posted by: Andy
.............
Businesses do NOT pay 35%.  That is the top RATE.  No one pays that.

They end up paying much much less when they get all the deductions that are in place in the current law.  If you get rid of all the deductions and reduce the rate to 20%, it would be a hard question whether you would reduce a business's tax liability at all.

Remember - GE paid $0 - ZERO DOLLARS - last year by taking advantage of all the deductions.  That is Zero Percent.

158

That's why you make the personal deduction big enough to start and then tell them congratulations you employer also will be able to keep you employed.  Flatten, simplify, its the only way to be sure.

You can't run on anything having to do with raising taxes on the 47 percent. I'm sorry.

As a matter of principle, I am right there with you. We should all be kicking into the system. However, as a matter of politics, in an economy like this, you cannot run on raising taxes on the "middle and working classes".

You simply can't do it. It's an unforced error that works right into Obama's playbook.

You have to bite you toungue and run on something like this. It's the best of both worlds. The job creators and investors get to keep more of their money which they undoubtedly will spend and invest wisely and the "less well off" will get to keep the status quo.  But the kicked is that with the initial decrease in gov't income, spending will have to be reduced.

It's a decent plan. Will it pass?  Probably not, but neither will 9-9-9 or Mitt Romney's 58 page plann.

159 Posted by: jewells45, tea party terrorist at October 24, 2011 09:21 PM (Z71Vg) So it's a no-go on McRib sandwich. It should go for up for vote --- as elections, as we know them, might get a Presidential over-ride....as in, second "stimulus" by-passing congress.... as a weak, ineffectual, effete, the "grand-slam" of narcissism certain SCOAMF would do.

160

God

I hate your words

Ready to fight?

161

127

Why attack anyone opposing the "o". We should ALL be attacking the "o" 24/7 till 2012. Debating issues...good. In-fighting...not good. The issue is how best to remove the SCFOMF in the most decisive way possible (remember..if it ain't close, they can't cheat!). So we go for the best bet after a series of debates that give us the best "Look" at the man/woman who we want to be our collective rep...then that's our way of doing it ....right? 

162 Say the married joint standard deduction is $25,000. Say my income is $85,000. Now my taxable income is $60,000. At 20% rate my Federal taxes will be $12,000! I hope there is something I'm missing here because I'll be paying triple what I'm paying now.

163

Businesses do NOT pay 35%.  That is the top RATE.  No one pays that

If you're an S-Corporation, you most definately pay above 35%, especially if your profit and wages are above 200k.

 

I think the top rate is 36.2%

164 121 I don't like deducting state taxes. It's a blue state bail-out.

Posted by: Randy M at October 24, 2011 09:27 PM (pSAOu)

Depends, really.  I get a rather substantial deduction for state sales tax here in TN (the rate is 9.25% in most places).  OTOH, I don't get to deduct my state income tax because there isn't one! 

165 Wow. Choices are scary.

An extra half hour away from the TV while figuring out if the 1040 is more or less than 20% is terrifying.

_{Yea, just what America has been dreaming of, an alternative maximum tax. In all fairness though, at 20% flat with mortgage and taxes deductions, I probably would come out several K in the black.}

Ok, I just did the math. I came out 3K in the red. And my combined tax bracket is up there. F* you Perry and your optional tax increase on the middle class. If it pounds me in the arse...(checks) it is pretty much a loser until you hit about 200K a year. Hey Perry, guess what you'll have a hard time selling? A tax cut that effects ONLY those making 200k a year or more. 

166 Nice commentary. last thirty days I uncovered this internet site and desired to permit you be conscious that iÂ’ve been gratified, heading via your siteÂ’s posts. I should certainly be signing equally as much as the RSS feed and can wait around for another post.

167 AKA Obama voters. Are they really going to vote for a Republican anyway?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at October 24, 2011 09:30 PM (oBrVT)

The racist ones will.

168 139

I agree jewells, and I still live here.

169 Ok, I just did the math. I came out 3K in the red. And my combined tax bracket is up there.

I bet that is why he said we could choose to do it the old way if we wanted.

170 You can't run on anything having to do with raising taxes on the 47 percent. I'm sorry.

Ben, re-read it.  A 30K deduction for married couples would cover that, besides I would rather run on the saving taxes on the 53%.

171 Posted by: The Magical Christmas Horse ePub at October 24, 2011 09:41 PM (kplp3)

The Christmas season starts earlier and earlier every year.

172 Whose gonna tell Rick Perry that this is what his tax plan is? I hear he doesn't like to be woken up........but only for 12 hours a day. I TNT baby, watch me explode! Pig Dog Amriki! Enjoy your full name!

173

I think the top rate is 36.2%

Posted by: Ben
............
That's bullshit, Ben.  ALL income in an S-Corp flows through to the owner.  What you are saying is all the saps that own S-Corps have absolutely ZERO deductions?

You, apparently, do not personally know any business owners.. I do.  Creative tax accounting allows them to write off almost every cent they spend... meals.. purchases.. cars.. trips.. etc., etc.

174 Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at October 24, 2011 09:40 PM (0q2P7)

What if the rate is 10-15%? Does that offset your deductions?

175 69Start with a choice between the two, then sunset the old Byzantine system in a few years.

Give the IRS people time to find new jobs in cattle butchering or sheep raping or whatever the hell those maggots can be retrained for.

Posted by: sifty at October 24, 2011 09:15 PM (4CSeG)

 

Screw those maggots.  Why in the hell should we worry, at all,  about some bureaucrat's job? We don't worry about our troops when there's a downsize of the military and folks are sent out in a RIF left and right, regardless of the state of the economy.

 

I believe we should be downsizing the federal government drastically.  And like the so-called "Peace Dividend" that politicians like to call the savings from a smaller force, we can declare it to be a "Liberty Dividend", because we will be freer to live our own lives instead of spending our money to those who enslave us with thousands of regulations.

176 A multi-tiered flat tax is the only one that makes sense to me and would be acceptable to a majority of the voting public.

My preference too.  No deductions; everyone in a given income bracket pays __%.

Perry's flat-but-not-really tax that doesn't seem to actually change much of anything.... meh.

177

Under Perry's Plan better half and I would pay 20% for our business tax (again, we own a "small business") and 20% personal income tax = 40%

 

Posted by: Heartless Nora, please be patient with me at October 24, 2011 09:29 PM (VxqUc)

Only if you own a corporation, is your small business is sub s or limited liability you would only be taxed once.

178
You, apparently, do not personally know any business owners.. I do.  Creative tax accounting allows them to write off almost every cent they spend... meals.. purchases.. cars.. trips.. etc., etc.

Yeah. Lots of people cheat on their taxes.

179 a family of four pays no tax up to 50000 and only 3 percent up to 60000

180 a family of four pays no tax up to 50000 and only 3 percent up to 60000

A family of four in California doesn't eat unless it makes 50,000 a year somehow.

181 >> Businesses do NOT pay 35%. That is the top RATE. No one pays that. Marginal rate vs effective rate. Cain's isn't 9% effective either, so STFU.

182 Perry's flat-but-not-really tax that doesn't seem to actually change much of anything.... meh.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at October 24, 2011 09:44 PM (d3TgT)

The few deductions he keeps helps the poor and middle class. You have to do that or it's a big tax break for the rich and would never sell.

183 And just like that Rick Perry is back in the game.

Look at Perry's political history.  He has ALWAYS been a slow starter then finishes like a champion.  The problem with debates is that there are not very representative of a person's ability to govern.  The debates hurt Perry because they made people wonder how smart he is.

If this tax plan looks, smart, really really smart, it will go a long way towards fixing that.

184 eh.  we're toast, when even conservatives can't agree to get on board a true flat tax, screw it.  Let the govt continue to pick winners and losers, screw equal treatment under the law.  F it, let it burn.

185 Well, if it is going to be this:

The plan starts with giving Americans a choice between a new, flat tax rate of 20% or their current income tax rate.

Then this isn't really true:

By eliminating the dozens of carve-outs that make the current code so incomprehensible, we will renew incentives for entrepreneurial risk-taking and investment that creates jobs, inspires Americans to work hard and forms the foundation of a strong economy.

If we can keep our current rates, then he is keeping all the old complexity, plus adding a new wrinkle. Complexity with extra simplicity added on top does not make for simplicity; it makes for even more complexity.

Of course, all that would be secondary for those that can pay less taxes. But, who gets to save? Just running some quick and sloppy numbers from the current tax brackets: 0-$8500 = 10%; 8500-34500 = 15%; 34500-83600 = 25%.

Before you even start with deductions, the break even point is $77,500.00. That's right, the tax on 77,500 comes to $15,500 if you are using the current method or if you just pay the 20% flat tax. Anyone making less than 77K comes out ahead with the current tax scheme. That's filing single and not taking out all the extra deductions now available. Once you add in all the extra deductions currently available, it gets even worse.

So, great tax plan for those making (considerably) more than 77K.

What a loser. I wish these guys would stop talking about new wonderful ways to tax us. STOP SPENDING is the only answer. Let's hear about how he will accomplish that.

186 Baby steps. But in the right direction for a change.

Let the people get comfortable with a flatter tax, then after more of the Gimme Generation grows up and more of the Boomers exit stage dirt, we migrate to a true Flat Tax.

187 Why bother with this tax plan?  Does it create jobs? Or a target for the Dems?

188 wait til tomorrow when all the details come out Erickson said he could not post all of it til perrys speach

189

"Posted by: robtr at October 24, 2011 09:46 PM (MtwBb) "

Thanks!  We pay a crapload now so either plan sounds like improvement.  Just wanted the information for the better half!

190 A man is waiting on line at the train station.  The ticket seller is a well-endowed blonde.  When the man walks up to her, he gets flustered, and says, "I'd like one picket to Titsburgh.  I MEAN, one ticket to Pittsburgh!"

Mortified, he starts to slink away.  However, the man behind him taps him on the shoulder, and says, "Hey, don't worry about it.  You had what's known as a Freudian slip.  Happened to me just the other day.  I was at breakfast with my wife, and I meant to say, 'Please pass the butter.'  Instead, I said, 'You fucking bitch, you ruined my life!'"

* * *

I like the Perry tax plan. 

191 Marginal rate vs effective rate. Cain's isn't 9% effective either, so STFU. Posted by: Andy
..........
No.. You STFU, Andy.

The whole point is all these plans are smoke and mirrors.. Some plans delete all deductions like Cain's plan - In which case the effective and marginal rates are exactly the same, you twit.

People come on blogs like this and argue one way or another without ever defining which rate they are arguing for or against.

192

Here's what the debates settled.    McRomney felt the need to touch Perry.   Perry resisted the urge to smack him.   Yes, McRomney is smooth.   Smooth to the point of being slimy.   He's been running for 7 years.    McRomney is like a kid whose parents have been prepping him for the national spelling bee.  Spell arthrocentipicaliphratic  and the kid nails it.     What amount of income makes somebody rich?    "I don't know....I want everybody in America to be rich."   bleech.   You know what Perry is?    REAL.   A real man who has experience guiding the second/third largest state.   See how he didn't flip/flop or hide from the law that TEXAS approved on whether to grant instate tuition rates to KIDS WHO WENT ALL THE WAY THROUGH AND GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL IN TEXAS regardless of whether their parents brought them here from Mexico or New Jersey??   My parents moved here when I was about to enter high school,    Did I have a choice to stay in Jamaica, Queens, NYC, NY???  Hell no.   

Incidentally my kids went to school with and I taught some of those kids and they are about as Mexican as Tony Romo.    They know enough Spanish to say Merry Xmas to Grandma on the phone and to order in a Mexican Restaurant.    Most have been here for 10 or 12 years and would be LOST if you dropped them into Mexico.   Their parents may have gone back and forth 20 times.   The border is THAT porous; people routinely go home for xmas or even just to go fishing.  However, they leave little kids up here because it's harder to cross with them.   Sorry Ms. Crazy-eyes but them is the facts. 

193 Yep! I was agreed, I'll keep in touch to your blog.

194 >> Some plans delete all deductions like Cain's plan Cain's plan doesn't delete all business deductions. You should've taken my advice.

195 Ok, Perry has me now.  He is brave enough to state the truth about Social Security and he has a flat(ter) tax.  We will have to put up with some tin ear stuff but not so much as with Cain.

So far I think everyone has been trying on candidates as an alternative to Romney but haven't really been able to get behind them.  Perry just changed that for me so it will be interesting to see if he gets any traction from this.

196 I LIKE IT. iT SHOULD BE THE STANDARD.

197

This makes me like Perry again.

198 Having deductions and exemptions defeats the purpose of a flat tax. Particularly since as soon as you offer some exemptions, some other lawmaker will add another. And another. And then you're back to a complicated tax system. See the book "Showdown at Gucci Gulf" for this same problem when Reagan tried it.

199 20-20 !

Genius, that's like... PERFECT VISION!



And a total of only 40% vs. 27% that Cain is offering... but math is hard.

Hard like the fact that everybody is paying about 30% right now regardless of the "progressive" crap you find on your pay stub. Pssst, the end consumer pays ALL taxes, most you all that get a paycheck just think (suckers) you pay on the front end.

200 That's my real hesitation here, William. I think the business tax (if we absolutely have to have one at that level) ought to be a flat tax on GAAP pre-tax income, and the individual tax ought to just be a flat tax on gross income. No deductions, period. The obvious retort is: Good luck getting that passed.

201 Cutting corporate taxes is a non-starter unless he's also willing to cut corporate tax exemptions, corporate tax expenditures and other kinds of corporate pork. If we eliminated corporate welfare, we could cut rates in half or more. It isn't fair for Wal-Mart to pay their entire share while defense contractors, energy companies and other firms with lots of government work *cough GE cough* mitigate their tax obligations down to nothing. Of course, the chances of Rick Perry putting the screws to his friends in the Texas oil and gas industry are nil.

202 Put this plan with Perry's stated intention to push for a Balanced Budget Amendment and defunding the UN, and he's got something to sell. Cain will be brought back to Earth by Newt in their two man debate, leaving Romney with his 25% core support. Opens the door for Perry to spend ad money like hell in Iowa. If he can pull that out, and Florida, he's back on track.

203 198 Having deductions and exemptions defeats the purpose of a flat tax. Particularly since as soon as you offer some exemptions, some other lawmaker will add another. And another. And then you're back to a complicated tax system. See the book "Showdown at Gucci Gulf" for this same problem when Reagan tried it.

Posted by: William Teach at October 24, 2011 10:31 PM (Pq9u/)

You can't get from here (current tax law) to there (pure flat tax).  There have to be intermediate steps to allow it to evolve.

Now, I like the simplicity of a flat tax, but let's face it, the low income people will feel it a lot more than those well into the six figures range--I'm not opposed to a non-punitive progressive tax system for that reason.  A very simple tiered system (Poverty, Middle Class, Upper Class--pick your income amounts to correspond) with minimal deductions is realistically the best that can be hoped for.

204 Cain's plan doesn't delete all business deductions.

You should've taken my advice. Posted by: Andy
....
Do you mind listing what deductions there are for businesses under Cain's plan?  I'll wait for your answer...

205 >> Do you mind listing what deductions there are for businesses under Cain's plan? 1) all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports 2) Empowerment Zones will offer deductions for the payroll of those employed in the zone You should stop.

206 Wow this is soo helpful I have been trying to figure this out on my own for a long time now. Hopefully making this change will help encourage discussion on my blog.

207

Until the full details of the plan are relased tomorrow, we've got a lot of idle speculation built around a few talking points.  I'm hoping for Monty to link to the article tomorrow, and to see some informed commentary on what the nuts and bolts of the plan are later in the week.

208 That is a massive facepalm. How is it a flat tax if you get to choose between rates? It basically just doubles the complexity of the tax code because under his plan, you'd have two. The only one, and the new one.

209 Blah, *old one.

210 I'm all in for this flat tax. It's exactly what we need to get the economy rolling again.

211 All of these tax cuts will be meaningless if we do not control federal spending.

Hallelujah!  That's what I'm looking for from one of these non-Paul candidates. 

212 203 You can't get from here (current tax law) to there (pure flat tax). There have to be intermediate steps to allow it to evolve. Yeah, but PerryÂ’s plan leaves the old system in place. So heÂ’s got that as the intermediate step already. People who want their exemptions/deductions can use the old complicated system under his plan anyway. So why make the new plan complicated, too?

213 The most hysterical new campaign video from the leader of the pack!

214 >> Expecting a static tax code is like expecting the Cubs to win the World Series. To be fair, I think the Cubs actually have a small chance.

215 Perry's plan must be good, there is nothing about it at MittensAir.

216 A gimmicky desperation move, but that's where the Perry campaign is at.

Back in reality, adding yet another layer of calculation to the tax code is just stupid.  One AMT is enough.

But since Perry probably doesn't mean it and is obviously trying to one-up Cain, Perrybots can continue to support their guy with no misgivings.  He obviously has no intention of enacting the thing if by some odd chance he gets elected.

217 @HeartlessBlackOrchid

$600/yr for an accountant?  where do you live and what kind of business do you have?  i've got two businesses and work full time, and have spent $3k on a cpa for a single year, and that wasn't even a big-time firm, no special situations or anything either.  i have done my taxes more than once, but the hours upon hours to compile all the information is an enormous pain, and the peace of mind that comes with a full-time expert managing the paperwork is almost always worth it.  i still say the biggest problem with this damn country is that you can't start a serious business without a decent lawyer, payroll service, business software, and cpa, well, you can but you'll be spending most of your time shuffling paperwork instead of working your business.  it's absolutely criminal what the tax code and litigious climate of blame permeates anyone trying to do things the right way.  honestly, it's no wonder that small business people bend the tax code to breaking in order to hold on to anything they have.  the government has no love for anything other than gargantuan businesses that line its pockets with donations and fill its polls with robotic employees that are lazy, unskilled, and know nothing of what risk it takes to start an enterprise and keep it running without guaranteed repeat business.

218 "And he's got what Cain's plan lacked: awareness that taxes are only half the problem" And that's why Cain is debating Gingrich on entitlements and not Perry?

219

So this is how I understand Perry's miserable plan:

As a small businessman who is self-employed, with Perry, I can pay 20% income tax AND 15.6% self-employment tax for a total of 35.6% on my earnings.

Under Cain's plan I could pay a 9% income tax and 9% sales tax on what I choose to consume, and ZERO self-employment tax.  Hmmmmmm, I think I'll continue to go with Cain.

220 He's privatizing SS

221 I'll see your tax plan and lower it three points!

222 I agree 100 percent with the comments above. Perry needs to start running against obama and attacking him and stop focusing on Romney. Cain is getting so much traction because he is attacking obama. Perry has to show everyone on a gut level that he can take it to obama and say the things about obama what everyone else in the country wants to say if we had the opportunity. He also needs to undo the damage he has done by reassuring conservatives that he will be tough on immigration and he has to reassure seniors that he is not gonna destroy social security.

223 >>And that's why Cain is debating Gingrich on entitlements and not Perry?

It seems that the organizers chose the two participants, with Gingrich being the first because it was his idea to do that style of debate.  I gather Cain was the other one because the organizers had a relationship with him already. 

224

Mallamutt,

Since you want to start looking deeper into numbers, 1/2 of self employment tax deduction doesn't mean you are getting a tax CREDIT for 1/2, it means you can deduct it from income and unless you are paying in the 100% income tax bracket (which we are not), you only save a small portion of that - according to Rick Perry it would be 20% of that, so in essence it would be 80% of the 15+ percent to add to the 20%. 

225 Its Pleasure to understand your blog.The above articles is pretty extraordinary, and I really enjoyed reading your blog and points that you expressed. I really like to appear back over a typical basis,post a lot more within the topic.Thanks for sharingÂ…keep writing!!!

226 I think in both Cain's and Perry's we avoid the corporate tax rates, as both plans call them corporate taxes so I'm assuming the extra 20% under Perry and the extra 9% under Cain wouldn't hit us.  Though shifting the social security and medicare taxes to sales tax revenue really is a big plus for us.  I think most people when they calculate out the plans will forget that they are paying or their employees are paying those payroll taxes under one plan and not the other.

227

Mallamutt,

Having done this before it's pretty easy, let's just use your numbers (which means ignoring the .9325 SE calculation) and let's assume straight up 20% income tax no other deductions.  If you have $100,000 and you paid $15,600 in self employment tax, then your income tax would be 20% of (100,000 - 7800) which is $18440, plus you paid 15,600 in self employment tax for a total of $34,440.  Your "savings" from getting to deduct 1/2 of self employment tax equals $20,000 - $18,440 which would be $1,560 - not $7,800 as you claim.  You still have to pay the $15,600 and you only save the taxable rate on the 1/2 of SE tax.

228

Mallamutt,

The 1/2 SE tax is deducted on page one of the 1040 which means you only save the taxable rate times 1/2 SE tax.  The only possible way that the self-employed person pays just the employee share of self-employment taxes is if that portion of their income is taxed at 100%, which it is not.

229 Sorry, I don't vote for Texas politicians. They usually turn out to be gigantic assholes in the end who hurt America (Johnson, Bush I, Bush II, Wright, Yarborough, etc.)

230 Another Perry FAIL.  He allows ANYONE who wishes to "opt out" (sound familiar?!?) if they prefer to say on the current system...YOU KNOW, like the 47% who currently PAY NO FEDERAL TAXES.

231 It's surely not perfect, but no plan will be. But I like the sound of it...pending getting more of the details. Nice to see a GOP candidate actually mention the need to cut spending...was thinking someone in this damn sorry field might want to bring that up at some point.

And 20/20 sounds way the heck better than 9-9-9 and beats the non-existent plans of the others. I'm not going to call anything as long as Romney's mess a "plan"...that's a damn bureaucratic clusterf*ck, not a plan.

232 I don't think Perry is done.  As long as Mitt attacks him that tells you Mitts internal polls have Perry, if not leading, then on Mitts ass.  This is not about Obama.  This is about who the Republicans run, a rhino or a conservative.  The establishment Washington D.C. Republicans want a rhino.  The media want a rhino.  The Donks want a rhino.  So they can have Mitt, I will stick with Perry. 

233 Talk about "we can't wait" -- I was so looking forward to seeing his plan, hoping that it would bring him back to center stage for a second look, but what is this about we can choose to go with our current rate? What the hell is that? Scrap the code, but only if you want to? Oy, I thought he was working with Steve Forbes on this. What happened?

234 Well I see all the Eeyores and Cainiacs are out in force this fine morning. 

235 "Governor, do you believe that President Barack Obama was born in the United States? I have no reason to think otherwise.

That's not a definitive, "Yes, I believe he"--
Well, I don't have a definitive answer, because he's never seen my birth certificate.

But you've seen his.
I don't know. Have I?

You don't believe what's been released?
I don't know. I had dinner with Donald Trump the other night.

And?
That came up.

And he said?
He doesn't think it's real.

And you said?
I don't have any idea. It doesn't matter. He's the President of the United States. He's elected. It's a distractive issue."

And, let's continue the controversy this morning and distract from our newly released tax plan. 

236

"The new flat tax preserves mortgage interest, charitable and state and local tax exemptions"

 

Why would a republican propose we continue to subsidize people living in high tax blue states? If you choose to live in NY, CA, NJ, MA etc and pay high taxes that doesn't mean you should pay lower federal taxes then me.

237

I am right, do the math.  Of course I don't have to pay income tax on 1/2 of my self-employment tax, but that doesn't mean I don't have to pay 1/2 of my self-employment tax.  It means that I get back in the form of less income taxes, the marginal income tax rate times 1/2 of the self-employment tax. 

The only possible way to get back 100% of that 1/2 of self-employment tax is if the marginal tax rate on that amount is 100%.  As of this time it is not.  Perry's plan would have that tax rate be 20% so that of my self-employment tax, I would be paying 90% of it under Perry's plan (100% of 1/2 of it, and 80% of the other half).  That would mean under Perry's plan I have the priviledge of paying 20% income tax PLUS nearly 14% self employment tax, and zero sales tax.

Under the 9-9-9 plan I would pay 9% income tax and 9% sales tax on what I choose to consume. 

It is very easy for me to see that if you are comparing Rick Perry to Herman Cain, that Rick Perry is ANTI- SMALL BUSINESS based on his tax plan.

238

#36 - Perry's plans (energy, tax) have had some new features but most of what he is proposing has been proposed before - cuts down on the prep time

#73 Mitt put his plan out months ago - buried in his 59 pt plan

#127 - Good advice

Good that Perry put out a plan.  Problem is that he will now face exactly what Cain has faced with his 999 plan - when asked specifics about the plan it can become complicated (as all tax plans can) and actually turn people off as it isn't as good as the simple headline sounds

239

Perry's plan is irrelevant.  He has little chance now of being elected. The most recent poll shows him running behind Cain, Romney, Gingrich, and Paul, even among Tea Partiers.

 

http://tinyurl.com/3qeswnh

240

So Perry will allow deductions for state taxes that benefits blue states but won't allow the child tax credit that benefits conservative families?  What a big FU to the base.

 

I like some of the non-tax elements though, like the stuff on regulation.  And the stuff about the taxation of overseas corporate income is smart.

Hopefully Perry can defend some of these points well enough that it drags the debate to the right.  Yeah, I know, but I can still hope.

241 So let me see if I got it right: The feds will take 20%, The state will take some more, local will take a bit more and this is better than our system how? It's 20% this year and 23% in 5 years, 30% in 10 years, and on and up it goes. What about a req'd balanced budget and the Line Item Veto? Will any politician get serious, ever?

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