1 NO....

2 No,no,no...

3 The irony we have an idiot like Ron Paul going off tonight, the lack of foreign policy knowledge in the open thread" the upper crust one" tonight in regards to Syria was - absolutely appalling- and now this. Your co bloggers are really bad in that area sorry-it's shocking.

4 I hate cancer. RIP.

5 Dammit. RIP. A real dickhead but also a real guy.

6 RIP.  A good person who will be missed.

7 I'll miss him.

8 RIP, Hitch.

9 I'm pretty sure he's not an atheist anymore.

10 One of the few on the Left that would ferociously call them out on their hypocrisy about human rights. Loved reading his columns at Slate where he would defend the Iran and Afghan wars and the libbs would tear their hair out over it.

11

Something about his defiant character in that, I guess. Or foolishness. Or both.

Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back.

12 Maybe one day, girls (yes, girls!) like her can help us find a cure once and for all.

13 RIP, Mr. Hitchens.  

14 RIP Hitch

15 Just to tell the story, Hitchens was specifically told not to screw with the Syrian Nazi party, as they literally killed people. They were permitted to hang their posters, in defiance of edict, because no one wanted to cross them. So, he's walking down the street, and he sees Syrian Nazi posters. He decides to deface them. Michael Totten says, "Hey, dont mess with the Nazis." He says something along the lines of "But I must." So he takes out a magic marker and writes on the posters, as if he's correcting them, "No, no, Fuck YOU" (as in, no, not fuck us, you've gotten it wrong; fuck YOU). Anyway, the Syrian Nazis (who were watching) and beat up a then 59 year old man. But he was just determined he was going to goddamn deface those posters.

16 Well now he will final have his answers. Is he nothing but worm food or in the light of the almighty, even if he did not believe in him.

17 I'll never forget that regardless of his political leanings, he was disgusted with Bill Clinton and said so publicly

The Left will not brook dissent in its own ranks, and many he thought were friends refused to speak with him after that

18 I remember that Nazi story.  That was badass.

19 RIP. We already miss you.

20 what a fucking self-centered thing to say Bomber. Like you know any better. Hitch was one of the best atheists around, and for you to belittle his life by polluting it with your tiny little world view is awful petty. get a hobby

21 As Christopher Hitchens would not doubt say, I'm sure there's no other way to rest after death than in peace.

He was a great and brave man, and a hero to me. I loved his humanitarianism even as I thought there may not be an ultimately objective rational basis for it. But he never claimed so. He claimed it evolved out of his warm, social primate emotions, and in that, he was no doubt correct.

On that basis, from that perspective, I agreed with most of his thoughts -- from being pro-life to anti-religion.

I'm glad you lived, Christopher Hitchens, because you made my life better and set a good example.

I will tip a glass of scotch tonight -- Johnny Walker black label if I can find it in town -- to you, in celebration of how you lived, bravely and openly.

Maybe I should stop being such a chickenshit and follow you. I often long for death in this world, but it will come soon enough, right? Perhaps I can hold out a little longer and try to accomplish something, however futile that is in the end.

To Christopher Hitchens! A of virtue and courage, especially courage; a hard worker and a passionate lover - including of his family; and a lover of humanity and fellow mammals, even of those whose beliefs he opposed.

22 Hitch doesn't exist anymore except in recordings and memories. Maybe folks will invoke him like Elvis. I bet he would find that repulsive and amusing at the same time. Posted the above on the ONT. As the Klingons say, "Die well". I hope he did. I will get drunk and watch Japanese pron in his honor.

23 A bit of a jerk but the world needs more jerks like Hitcherns. I think he was the last "Devil's Advocate" the church employed. He gave the not-a-saint case on Sister Theresa. He pounded her so well that, according to Hitch, the Church did away with the position. Enjoyed his writing - bought one of his books. Ciao for Now, Hitch.

24 ^man of

25 I offer the following wikipedia excerpts without commentary: In 2006, in a town hall meeting in Pennsylvania debating the Jewish Tradition with Martin Amis, Hitchens commented on his political philosophy by stating "I am no longer a socialist, but I still am a Marxist".[62] In a June 2010 interview with the New York Times, he stated that: "I still think like a Marxist in many ways. I think the materialist conception of history is valid. I consider myself a very conservative Marxist".[63] In 2009, in an article for The Atlantic entitled "The Revenge of Karl Marx", Hitchens frames the late-2000s recession in terms of Marx's economic analysis and notes how much Marx admired the capitalist system he was calling for the end of, but says that Marx ultimately failed to grasp how revolutionary capitalist innovation was.[64] Hitchens was an admirer of Argentine revolutionary Ernesto "Che" Guevara, commenting that "[Che's] death meant a lot to me and countless like me at the time, he was a role model, albeit an impossible one for us bourgeois romantics insofar as he went and did what revolutionaries were meant to do — fought and died for his beliefs."[65] He continues to regard both Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky as great men,[67][68] and the October Revolution as a necessary event in the modernization of Russia.[27][34] In 2005, Hitchens praised Lenin's creation of "secular Russia" and his discreditation of the Russian Orthodox Church, describing it as "an absolute warren of backwardness and evil and superstition" ... Hitchens has said of himself I am an Anti-Zionist. I'm one of those people of Jewish descent who believes that Zionism would be a mistake even if there were no Palestinians. ... Hitchens argues that instead of supporting Zionism, Jews should help "secularize and reform their own societies", believing that unless one is religious, "what the hell are you doing in the greater Jerusalem area in the first place?"

26 Don't forget he was the sack of shit who attacked Mother Teresa with a sordid and disgusting book.

But I hope he found the true God in his last moments.


Otherwise I'm reminded of Hilaire Belloc's Epitaph on a Puritan:

"He served his god faithfully and well,
and now he sees him face to face in Hell."

27 "I'm pretty sure he's not an atheist anymore."

He doesn't exist, but up until he existed, he was.

28 fuck you too leo. True God according to you. Not to Hitchens.

29 Thing is he'd probably enjoy all these comments-really want to stink up the thread-say you are going to pray for his soul... Joking-sorta.

30 "Don't forget he was the sack of shit who attacked Mother Teresa with a sordid and disgusting book."

One of the many things I admire him for. She was providing places for people to die without proper medical treatment nor family visits in appalling in conditions, hobnobbing with the royalty and dicators of the world, and raising money mostly used for nunneries in her honor.

31

In my years as a nurse, most smokers have said 2 things to me.

1) My lungs are fine, why should I quit smoking?

2) Since my lungs are already crap, why should I quit?

I really enjoyed watching Hitchens on Dennis Miller's HBO show, and his book on Clinton is great.

32 and hope Dianna is there to...oh forget it.

33 I'm a conservative Christian so Hitch and I have that great gulf fixed between us.  But when I have to go out, I hope I get to go out on my own terms too.  RIP

34 31 One of the many things I admire him for. She was providing places for people to die without proper medical treatment nor family visits in appalling in conditions, hobnobbing with the royalty and dicators [sic] of the world, and raising money mostly used for nunneries in her honor.



I see you've suckled the same shit right from Hitch's arsehole.

35 His writings could invoke great anger, but he never backed down from writing what he truly felt without fear nor favor. Unlike most on the Left, he aimed just as much vitriol at Muslims as he did Christians.

You could both admire him and detest him in the same column or article, I believe that he did his best not to bore you

36

He was outside, smoking. Puffing away.

Something about his defiant character in that, I guess. Or foolishness. Or both.

He knew he was probably going to die then, let him die his way.

37 Wine. Is. Red! Rest in Peace.

38 At least he got sent to Hell during winter.

39 Posted by: not from around here at December 16, 2011 12:10 AM (3akB4)

You're missing the point.  You can believe, or not believe, anything you choose.  Reality will catch up to you someday.  Like it did today for Mr Hitchens.

But in honor of a man that I agreed with on some important issues and disagreed with on other important issues, I'll let it go. 

From what I have read of the man, he died the way he lived.

40 Hitch's mistake was counting on FDA approved cancer treatments. Ya gotta go to the Pharm labs and snort the Phase I powders. They'll clean you right up!

41 40 From what I have read of the man, he died the way he lived.


Yes: badly.

42 Posted by: Chesty LaRue at December 16, 2011 12:14 AM (KTtrN)

He didn't get sent to hell. He got sent to the same place 50 plus percent of us will get sent. A place where unbelievers go to be proven wrong or right.

43 What kind of obituary would Hitchens write for himself?

44 I read, very recently, that he ha been undergoing proton beam treatment, and that he had hit the 35 treatment (or day) limit. The description of the effects was ... unpleasant, even to read.

45 Thanks for posting this, Ace - I was really hoping you were going to catch this in real time tonight. He was my favorite political essayist/columnist, by far and away. It didn't matter whether I agreed with him. He was brilliant and compelling and didn't take a single word off in his writing. Every syllable was loaded and dangerous in the best sense. And he was fearless in his targets: Nixon and Kissinger, The Clintons, Mother Teresa, the religious right, the radical Islamists. Just amazing. Rarely am I moved by passings like this, but, this time I really am. Whether it's in the dirt or somewhere more ethereal: RIP.

46 He didn't get sent to hell. He got sent to the same place 50 plus percent of us will get sent. A place where unbelievers go to be proven wrong or right. Posted by: Samuel Adams at December 16, 2011 12:16 AM (yGl9Q) He was the product of his functioning brain and body. When they ceased to function, he ceased to exist. He was not sent anywhere.

47 I'm pretty sure he's not an atheist anymore.

Imagine the rhetorical arguments he's having, either with God or with Satan.  One hopes it's with the former, but one delights in thinking of him having it with the latter, just to give the other side his own version of Hell.

Again, RIP Hitch.

48 I've said this before and I'll say it again;

I believe in God but I won't presume that I can read his mind

49 Hitch could talk Satan into going to church and helping little old ladies cross the street.

50 This is all rather bathetic. Hitchens was a dirty, disgusting leftist who ordinarily wouldn't get the time of day here.

Remember: Stalin was our ally in WWII. Shall we all shed a tear for Uncle Joe too?

51 Hitchens flips off Bill Maher's audience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECI4QK_mXA

52 He was the product of his functioning brain and body.

When they ceased to function, he ceased to exist.

He was not sent anywhere.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 12:19 AM (kEKwc)

Kinda believe that too, (just don't know), but didn't want to start a fight. But saying he was going to hell deserved some kind of measured response. I guess I'm not drunk enough yet.

53 This is all rather bathetic. Hitchens was a dirty, disgusting leftist who ordinarily wouldn't get the time of day here.

Remember: Stalin was our ally in WWII. Shall we all shed a tear for Uncle Joe too?
Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 12:22 AM

Shaking my head. What can you do? It takes all kinds.

I agree with Hitchens about more things than not, for the record. You may hate me too, Leo. I shall consider it a great honor.

54 Nate Thanks for that clip.

55 One day Hitch was walking along the Grand Canyon and came upon Ronald Reagan. Hitch said hi and Dutch said hey Hitch can you lend me a hand here? My johnson is stuck in the canyon. Hitch hesitated for a microsecond while he pondered three million replies and finally said hold still, I got this. Without hesitation Hitch whipped out his own johnson and slammed it into the earth with such supernova like force the Grand Canyon relented and released Dutch's member. True story.

56 It's pathetic to remember Hitchens, a strong atheist, in terms of meeting the "true God" or going to hell, or whatever other sentiment Hitch would have considered superstitious nonsense. He tore these arguments apart in life, and now in death all you small minded folks have to "win" this argument with him now that he can't argue back. Let the man rest in peace without you ruining it with your own ego and self righteousness.

57 Hitch was my favorite sort of pundit, one who I agreed and disagreed with, but was sure of himself and not afraid to ruffle any feathers. He was smart, very deep, and loved an argument. I would trade a thousand democrat and republican "strategists" for a couple more of him to talk on our televisions.

58 Random What do you think Hitchens would have done to you-and your race theory..in the first Ron Paul thread today? Ripped you a new one.

59 A true Christian as I understand the creed would pray for the soul of Chris Hitchens no matter what his belief

60 "This boy was brought up in a time of blood and dying and never questioned a bit of it. He never turned his back on his folks or his kind. I rode with him... and I got no complaints."

61 not from around here, you're going to need to get that sand out of your vagina. Can you do that for us?

62 Good riddance POS.

63 >>60 Hitch was my favorite sort of pundit, one who I agreed and disagreed with, but was sure of himself and not afraid to ruffle any feathers. He was smart, very deep, and loved an argument. ... I would trade a thousand democrat and republican "strategists" for a couple more of him to talk on our televisions.<< This, this, a thousand times, THIS. I don't watch cable news anymore, except in an anthropological way (to see what the left/right MSM is saying on closed-captioning while I work out), because people like Hitch don't really exist in that sphere.

64 Hitchens gives Maher's audience the bird

65 Well, Hitch is gone but at least we still have Mika Brezboobski. Man, random factors are a bitch.

66 What do you think Hitchens would have done to you-and your race theory..in the first Ron Paul thread today?

Ripped you a new one.

Probably. He was first and foremost a humanitarian.

I like people from all races, incidentally. I wish the evidence pointed in a different direction than it does (I wish also all my loved ones would get to live forever in internal bliss; I also wish I didn't have certain weaknesses). Anyway, this thread isn't about me.

It's about a great and brave man, Christopher Hitchens, who lived with great integrity, boldness, and joie de vivre.

67 59 It's pathetic to remember Hitchens, a strong atheist, in terms of meeting the "true God" or going to hell, or whatever other sentiment Hitch would have considered superstitious nonsense. He tore these arguments apart in life, and now in death all you small minded folks have to "win" this argument with him now that he can't argue back. Let the man rest in peace without you ruining it with your own ego and self righteousness.



Please. Why would I adopt his terms of reference--terms which I and 2,000 years of orthodox Christianity reject? Frankly, he had rhetorical flourish but understood little of Christian history or theology.

So I should leave him in peace, yeah, just like the peace he let Blessed Mother Teresa rest in.

And what "peace" are you talking about? "Rest in peace" is a phrase from Christian Scripture and tradition. But, according to you and him, he's not at peace: he's just worm food. It's hilarious how all the village atheists rail against Christianity but have nothing else to fall back but the moral and spiritual capital of 2,000 years of Christendom.

68 Good riddance POS. Posted by: Full Nelson at December 16, 2011 12:36 AM (EL+OC) Asshole.

69 nobody else consistently took the anti-war Left to task over the liberation of Iraq like Hitchens did.

70 Gddamn, missing Hitch already. Good on ya Ace and all of you. If you want some help walking the walk, think Hitch. Now I will have to resort to VDH and Steyn.

71 Good riddance POS.

Posted by: Full Nelson at December 16, 2011 12:36 AM

Feel the love!

72 I am out for pro-Hitchens' memory scotch. Have a great night, all.

73 Leo, if Chris Hitchens was your enemy, how often did you pray for him? Seriously. Think about it.

74 Christopher Hitchens was consistent until his end, he never apologized for being a degenerate moral relativist.

75 Fuck, this is really horrible. A great man leaves the stage. If you wanna see Hitchens really destroy a conventional, unthinking lefty then you should watch his bloggingheads debate with Eric Alterman. I think this is how Hitch would like to be remembered: fiercely debating douchebags.

76 Myself,  I hope the Hound of Heaven caught him right at the last minute.

RIP Chris.  You did some good things and some bad,  just like all of us. May God have mercy and grant you eternal life.

77 Asshole.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 12:38 AM (kEKwc)

Fuck you atheist POS

78 Man ace and this blog are full of grade A assholes.

79 Hitch grew up under the Church of England, and when you look at some of the clowns along with Rowan Atkinson who've held the title of Archibishop of Canterbury, I'm surprised the whole of Britain hasn't turned atheist

80 That sucks. And, yeah, cancer is a bitch. I listened to one of Adam Carolla's recent podcasts where he talks about a friend of his who, in his early 50s, developed severe dementia. Never really heard Carolla get choked up before. The friend had been a sort of comic juggler, type of performer who worked cruise ships and Branson, Missouri. Not gonna get rich and famous, but he made a living doing that. Carolla was talking about how he and the guy had been buddies but then kinda lost touch, hadn't caught up in a # of years. And then out of the blue he gets a call from the guy's wife explaining what had happened. By that point the guy was no longer able to walk or even talk, no awareness of his surroundings. But, yeah, cancer is a bitch.

81 All this beatific christian sentiment is just overwhelming.

82 78 Leo, if Chris Hitchens was your enemy, how often did you pray for him?

Seriously.

Think about it.



Since the announcement of his cancer, frequently. Thanks for asking. He was the kind of leftist, like Douglas Hyde or Bella Dodd or Eugene Genovese, who would have made a good convert.

83 It's hilarious how all the village atheists rail against Christianity but have nothing else to fall back but the moral and spiritual capital of 2,000 years of Christendom. Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 12:37 AM (mAm+G) Hilarious? Hardly. It is a common phrase that means we wish you the best. It does not mean we think you must exist now in some other world in some other way.

84 81 Myself,  I hope the Hound of Heaven caught him right at the last minute.

RIP Chris.  You did some good things and some bad,  just like all of us. May God have mercy and grant you eternal life.

Posted by: Miss Marple at December 16, 2011 12:40 AM (GoIUi)

Ya know, that is sweet, and anyone on this thread hoping he went to hell, is just wrong.

And for all you who think you have the last word, grow up.

85 Rest in peace, Mr. Hitchens. 

86 Fuck you atheist POS Posted by: Full Nelson at December 16, 2011 12:40 AM (EL+OC) What? No prayer for my soul? Who would want to spend a microsecond of the Afterlife with you, never mind an Eternity.

87 Regardless of his political/religious leanings, he was an excellent writer that truly was passionate about what he believed.  He will be missed.

Oh, and :

Maybe one day, girls (yes, girls!) like her can help us find a cure once and for all.

Kids like this make me wonder what I've wasted my life on   We need more kids like this, it makes me less worried for the future.

88 89 It is a common phrase that means we wish you the best.

It does not mean we think you must exist now in some other world in some other way.



Right, like "Merry Christmas" means "I hope you get lots of presents during the Winter Festival." Nothing to do with the feast of the Nativity of the Savior, the awesome revelation of God to man in Christ. Nope, nothing at all.

89 He was larger than life, and so it is difficult to believe he's gone. The beauty and force of his work will live on.

RIP.

90 Who would want to spend a microsecond of the Afterlife with you, never mind an Eternity.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 12:48 AM (kEKwc)

Yep

91 No joke, no malice and no trace of sarcasm in my statement: May Almighty God have mercy on his soul. He seemed to be a man who lived, and appreciated, life.

92 Waawaawaa, all the theists are being mean to wittle, ole Cwistopher.

93 I'll say it if Ace doesn't

I believe that this thread is a tribute to a great writer who was an athiest but to my memory didn't try to convince the reader to believe as he did.

Pissing on his grave is rather un-Christian I would say

94 Right, like "Merry Christmas" means "I hope you get lots of presents during the Winter Festival." Nothing to do with the feast of the Nativity of the Savior, the awesome revelation of God to man in Christ. Nope, nothing at all. Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 12:49 AM (mAm+G) Dude, I'm glad you are happy as a convinced worshiper of Christ. Other than that, well, I got other things to keep me busy.

95 @85 hitch left that farm far before the ascension of the current ab :p ace: saw him just a couple months ago right here in md anderson! was visiting a family member and needed a break from all the gloomy sterility, so i went up to the atrium...imagine who i saw but the man himself! was too sheepish to approach him and disturb what appeared to be the contemplative reverie of impending mortality. fucking kicking myself now, i guess. maybe it's for the better. probably would have just been torn a new rhetorical asshole, anyway xD

96 A strong voice is silenced.

RIP, Hitch. 

Damn, this news sucks.

97 Posted by: kbdabear at December 16, 2011 12:51 AM (Y+DPZ)


Not real familiar with his writings?

98 Those of you who feel compelled to gloat or whatever the heck it is you're doing over this man's death -- did it occur to you that ace liked the man so all you're managing to do is hurt ace?  Give it a rest. 

99 Hitch grew up under the Church of England, and when you look at some of the clowns along with Rowan Atkinson who've held the title of Archibishop of Canterbury, I'm surprised the whole of Britain hasn't turned atheist

Dude, I think you mean Rowan Williams.

100 As for converting an athiest, I haven't heard that God pays a commission for each new one you bring in.

101
Other than that, well, I got other things to keep me busy.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 12:52 AM (kEKwc)

eman, I hope you see that there are people that don't think they know God's plan and live our lives accordingly.

 

102 Vanity Fair's site is overloaded right now.

Well, I guess he has his answers. God rest his soul.

103 Dude, I think you mean Rowan Williams.
Posted by: Lone Marauder, pre-denounced for your convenience at December 16, 2011 12:55 AM

Thank you, that's who I meant. Whatever, he's still a hack and a clown

104 I've always liked Hitch. I admire his intellect and wit even when I think he's wrong. Even when he's insulting people like me. Even when he was being a left-wing asshole. Maybe more I envy his wit. And I envy his brass balls. I wish I was as quick-witted and fearless as he was. And as much as we get heated about politics, it's good to remember at times that we, and everyone we love and care about, are going to die, most likely in a painful, gruesome, and humiliating manner - incontinent, impotent, weak, feeble, and confused. One of the more depressing lines I read once was how most of us are going to die alone, scared and in pain, with the only person to witness our passing an annoyed nurse who's impatiently waiting for us to die cause she needs the bed and equipment and we were supposed to die 8 hours ago.

105 Thank you, that's who I meant. Whatever, he's still a hack and a clown

No worries, I saw your original post and was all "Whaaa?  Mr. Bean was the Archbishop?"

106 He was brilliant against the execrable George Galloway in the debate at the Bernard Baruch College a few years back, not long after 9-11.

Check it out to see him in his finest, most eviscerating form.

He was surprised and not displeased to hear the vocal one-third of us who had shown up to root for him and against the pro-jihad leftwads. Whom he addressed with elegant sarcasm as "Comrades."

107 I'm trying hard not to overstep my bounds here, but to those for whom Hitchens' death seems to be a vehicle for hashing out their own grudges, why not just stop for a second and read the work of an exceptional human being whose inquiries into our shared world were, IMHO, deeper than most of us can artfully express? http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2012/01/hitchens-201201 Now *that's* a fucking essay.

108 114 I've always liked Hitch. I admire his intellect and wit even when I think he's wrong. Even when he's insulting people like me. Even when he was being a left-wing asshole. Maybe more I envy his wit. And I envy his brass balls. I wish I was as quick-witted and fearless as he was. And as much as we get heated about politics, it's good to remember at times that we, and everyone we love and care about, are going to die, most likely in a painful, gruesome, and humiliating manner - incontinent, impotent, weak, feeble, and confused. One of the more depressing lines I read once was how most of us are going to die alone, scared and in pain, with the only person to witness our passing an annoyed nurse who's impatiently waiting for us to die cause she needs the bed and equipment and we were supposed to die 8 hours ago. --------------------- Alone? Dust to dust. Good work, Clubber.

109 I don't know. If Mr. Bean was my priest, I think I'd keep going to church. If It was Blackadder I'd probably stay home, though. Maybe he'd alternate from week to week.

110

39At least he got sent to Hell during winter.

 

According to what major religion?  According to what individual interpretation of that religion?

 

STFU

 

RIP Hitch

111 Now *that's* a fucking essay.

Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 16, 2011 12:58 AM (sk3ka)

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

112 I wouldn't blame Christians for bad behavior. The Christians aren't doing anything wrong. Rather, we have a few people who subscribe to some sort of bizarre Ha-Ha My Devil Of Vengeance Has You Now, Sucker! victory-dance cult.

113 Tipping a glass of scotch to Hitch's memory at a pub now. Cheers all!

114 97 The beauty and force of his work will live on.



The beauty of calling Blessed Mother Teresa a "bitch" and a "cow" and a "fraud"?

I don't know of any species of conservatism that would brook such slander, let alone celebrate it.

115 eman, I hope you see that there are people that don't think they know God's plan and live our lives accordingly. Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 12:55 AM (R21xD) Indeed so. I don't even feel that other fellow is an asshole and am sorry I called him one. His remark was assholic (not a word, I guess) but he may not truly be an asshole. BTW, I was sad to hear you are married. Many fantasies died at that moment. *wink*

116 Come on, Ace. I'm calling you out. Are you defending Hitch's slander of Mother Teresa?

117 Some people jerk themselves off at visions of enemies finally in hell. Not everyone really understands religion or Christianity in particular at a high level. Some people only understand it at a base, primitive, childish level, the level in which an avenger named "God" goes out and kills all the people in your hate-book for you. Primitives often subscribe to this type of hoary voodoo.

118 I loved Hitch.  I thought he was disgusting at times.  Other times I cheered for him wildly.   But he was nobody's shill...nobody's fool.  And he always stood for what he honestly believed was the truth.  I will miss him a lot.

119 128 Come on, Ace. I'm calling you out. Are you defending Hitch's slander of Mother Teresa?

Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:04 AM (mAm+G)

---

Is this the time and the place?  Grow the fuck up. 

120 128 Come on, Ace. I'm calling you out. Are you defending Hitch's slander of Mother Teresa?

Yeah ace. What about that?

121 Rather, we have a few people who subscribe to some sort of bizarre Ha-Ha My Devil Of Vengeance Has You Now, Sucker! victory-dance cult. Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 01:01 AM Perhaps now is the time for one of your "why don't you find another blog to bother tonight" advisements

122 ace,
Close this thread down. 
Leave the tribute to Hitchens but kill the comments. 

I am sorry that on the night you lost a friend, you have to see crap like this. 

123 Some people jerk themselves off at visions of enemies finally in hell.

Not everyone really understands religion or Christianity in particular at a high level.


Seriously, what the hell are you talking about.

124 "Come on, Ace. I'm calling you out. Are you defending Hitch's slander of Mother Teresa?" He just died. Perhaps he figures this isn't the best time to fight over his legacy. Here. Put down your anger. Join me in raising a glass. Water or soft drink if that's all you have handy. Let's raise a glass to his memory as a fellow human being who was often, if not always, with us on the issues we care about. Cheers to one and all.

125 I'm talking about people who seem to have confused the message of Christianity with the idea that "Ha ha, mo-fo, now you get yours!!!" I think some people are mouthing the words without understanding the plot.

126 Dude, I think you mean Rowan Williams.

/spit-take!!!

one that Hitch would like, methinks.

127 I'm talking about people who seem to have confused the message of Christianity with the idea that "Ha ha, mo-fo, now you get yours!!!"

Oh, them OK.

128 I don't really care. I didn't know him especially well. I think Leo's seethings are self-refuting. He claims, I assume, to be filled with the love of Christ, but it seems his big take-away from the teachings of Christ is that in Death Christ gets vengeance on you like Sylvester Stallone, and then you get to cheer the villain's grisly death, like you're watching an action movie. I didn't get that much teaching myself, but from what I learned, that really wasn't the main point of it. I was taught, instead, that someone ought to be ashamed of such feelings. Vengeance is MINE, sayeth the Lord.

129 127 I'm talking about people who seem to have confused the message of Christianity with the idea that "Ha ha, mo-fo, now you get yours!!!"



Did anyone really say that here? A few joked that might be damned but anyone who believes in damnation knows that judgment belongs to God alone.

I admired Hitch as a rhetorician, but I agreed with him on almost nothing. I see almost no common cause between him and anything resembling modern American conservatism.

130 But I will permit Leo to get to his rather stunted, primitive, voodoo-like Step Right Up For Vengeance, Sinners! version of "Christianity."

131 127 I'm talking about people who seem to have confused the message of Christianity with the idea that "Ha ha, mo-fo, now you get yours!!!"

I think some people are mouthing the words without understanding the plot. Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 01:08 AM

Very much so ...

132

124ace,
Close this thread down.
Leave the tribute to Hitchens but kill the comments.

I am sorry that on the night you lost a friend, you have to see crap like this. 

 

 

I completely disagree.  Hitch would love to see lively and somewhat vulgar debate in his honor.  Let the thread flow....

133 Christopher who?

134 130 I think Leo's seethings are self-refuting. He claims, I assume, to be filled with the love of Christ, but it seems his big take-away from the teachings of Christ is that in Death Christ gets vengeance on you like Sylvester Stallone, and then you get to cheer the villain's grisly death, like you're watching an action movie.



Really? Unlike Breitbart, I don't think you're actually reading the comments.

I made no serious comment on Hitchens's ultimate disposition.

Can you explain to me how he is in any way a conservative hero?

135 Leo: Are you capable of loving - in the Christian sense - another human being who disagrees with you on political issues? Serious question. If so, what's your beef? If not, how do you square that with Christianity?

136 Fucking Hitchens was alright. Yeah he has pissed off just about everybody, but damn sometimes he was right. Sometimes we have in our lifetimes an intellectual Howard Stern who lets everyone know that we all have weaknesses including Hitchens himself. But at times, I would have gone to war with this guy to protect what he had to say. Remember, this guy got his ass kicked by Muslim barbarians because he challenged their views. Maybe I forget, but I don't remember him getting his ass kicked by Catholics or Baptists for spouting his beliefs which fly in the face of just about every Christian.

137 >>>>>"I admired Hitch as a rhetorician, but I agreed with him on almost nothing. I see almost no common cause between him and anything resembling modern American conservatism." Ah. I see. Christ's message was about loving those who displayed something resembling "modern American conservatism." Those with whom we agree. Well if that's what Christiany demands of me, sign me up. The religion of loving those I already am like. I think I can do that one.

138 I see almost no common cause between him and anything resembling modern American conservatism. Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:12 AM (mAm+G) That is why you fail.

139 Hitchens was an amazing writer, and, with his loss, society as a whole loses something. It does not matter what you think of his beliefs; he was a talented man who did indeed stand up for those beliefs.

As for cancer, we just pretend to treat it. But really, all modern medicine can do is stave off the end for a while. However, it will kill you, and while killing you, put you through the most horrific treatments just so you can have one more day on earth. I know how horrible it is; I lost my Mother to it almost a year ago.

For all of those here who have the gall to insult a man who has just died a horrific death- all I can say is that I hope you don't have to live through what he did. Because what he went through is worse than any hell you can imagine.

140 <sub><sup>55 This is all rather bathetic. Hitchens was a dirty, disgusting leftist who ordinarily wouldn't get the time of day here.

Remember: Stalin was our ally in WWII. Shall we all shed a tear for Uncle Joe too?
Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 12:22 AM</sup></sub>

I felt the same way when Dennis Hopper died and this degenerate lot wanted to deify him. I am so glad that I am not the only douchebag that reads this blog!!

141 I don't mind that Leo has such ill-feelings towards Hitchens. Hitchens was a provocateur, and deliberately attacked venerated persons like Mother Theresa. Rather, I'm struck by the irony. Leo and the other guy doing this ridiculous "Ha ha now Jesus gets his payback" crap are essentially buttressing Hitchens' case for the irrationality of religion. They don't understand that, of course. But they are. These comments wouldn't strike me as ridiculous if you simply kept YOUR hatred and anger at Hitchens in your own voice. Instead, you're trying to ventriloquize God. You are dragging God and Christ into your vengeance fantasies. Rather than saying "Good riddance to bad rubbish" -- making the hatred your own -- you're postulating the many devilments Hitchens will now face, and delighting in his eternal torment, to be forever tormented, forever, beyond the time when the stars fade from the sky. You're taking your own hate and trying to give it some kind of Christian spin. You should just speak your hate in your own words and leave God out of it. If God wishes to have his say, he will. He doesn't need Leo Landesman or "RIP" speaking for him.

142 Hitchens started out a leftist prick, but he was really wising up as he got older. He will be missed.

143 142 I see almost no common cause between him and anything resembling modern American conservatism.
Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:12 AM (mAm+G)

That is why you fail.



Again, really? Where's the list of his conservative accomplishments and positions arrayed here for us all to admire?

144

BTW, I was sad to hear you are married. Many fantasies died at that moment.

*wink*

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 01:02 AM (kEKwc)

Ya know, I was drunk the other night, am I forgivin, or what?

145 Again, really? Where's the list of his conservative accomplishments and positions arrayed here for us all to admire?
Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:20 AM (mAm+G)

So you can only admire conservatives?

Well I guess that's a difference between us then.

146 >>>Otherwise I'm reminded of Hilaire Belloc's Epitaph on a Puritan: >>>"He served his god faithfully and well, and now he sees him face to face in Hell." And given that Hitchens had nasty words for Mother Theresa, I can't say he doesn't deserve some backbiting in his own death. I just think it's odd that religion is being hijacked as some kind of God Shows His Love By Tormenting Those I Don't Like vengeance fantasy. And that you don't see how this, to the extent it proves anything, proves that maybe Hitchens had the right idea. Now, by the way, I continue stating that I do not find this actually "Christian" at all and I think this is Leo's and RIP's own version of the religion.

147

As a secular conservative Republican I am really starting to get my blood pressure up.  A couple more Mike's hard lemonades and I should go to bed.

148 143 These comments wouldn't strike me as ridiculous if you simply kept YOUR hatred and anger at Hitchens in your own voice.

Instead, you're trying to ventriloquize God. You are dragging God and Christ into your vengeance fantasies.



Where did I do that, Ace? Come on. The No. 3 Conservative Blogger can do better than that.

149 I admired Hitch as a rhetorician, but I agreed with him on almost nothing. I see almost no common cause between him and anything resembling modern American conservatism.
Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:12 AM

I have the feeling that you and many others see religion and politics as a "yay team" kind of thing

The kind who hopes Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady blow out a knee if he's playing your guys, but he's the greatest man in the world if he's playing against a team you hate or he's on your fantasy football team

150

Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 01:19 AM (nj1bB)

 

well said, ace.

sorry to hear that you lost a friend.

151

<i> Again, really? Where's the list of his conservative accomplishments and positions arrayed here for us all to admire? </i>

His unflinching support of the wars against Islamic Barbarism, both Iraq and Afghanistan.

His realization that "multiculturalism" was rotten and dishonest to the core, and from that, his walking away from the Left.

At the end, he realized that private enterprise was a god thing after all.

Did he start out a leftist shithead? Sure. But he did wise up.

 

 

152 I felt the same way when Dennis Hopper died and this degenerate lot wanted to deify him. I am so glad that I am not the only douchebag that reads this blog!!

No we didn't. Hopper changed himself without any prodding by conservative bloggers.

153 ^{No worries, I saw your original post and was all "Whaaa?  Mr. Bean was the Archbishop?"}

^{Posted by: Lone Marauder, pre-denounced for your convenience at December 16, 2011 12:57 AM (/bVuS)}

It would be a definite upgrade.

154 I think of a man like Hitch almost like I do a great athlete. Almost regardless of what Michael Jordan's politics are or were, I can admire the extraordinary skill and beauty of the physical performances he put on. Watching Hitch when he was at his peak in a debate was ... extraordinary, just at the physical performance level. The energy and improvisation and mental agility involved in a great back and forth debate is amazing. I was a high school athlete, and all athletes have games where they play their best and they touch briefly that level that the greats do. Or catch a glimpse of that level. Or maybe just touch their own personal peak. So watching the greats you can kind of imagine what it's like, it's inspiring. I think for a lot of verbal,intellectual types, and even wanna be intellectual types, we've spent more time than most people having wide-ranging arguments and discussions about politics. It's something we enjoy. Which is why even people who disagree totally with Hitch, can still admire and envy the virtuosity and agility of his performances. We've had those moments, like a high school athlete, where our mind was working at top speed in top form and everything came so quick, and arguments flowed effortlessly and we pulled some great historical detail here to buttress this point and dropped some clever remark there. At our peak we'd like to think we approach that level of clever wit of Hitch. And we imagine we have a sense of what it's like to be that clever 24/7. Htich was like the peak of human intellectual wittiness and cleverness. It was like cleverness as a performance art. I can admire him as an athlete somewhat irrespective of the content of what he actually said. As an American, the British accent also always helps take the edge off being insulted.

155 If God wishes to have his say, he will. He doesn't need Leo Landesman or "RIP" speaking for him.

Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 01:19 AM (nj1bB)

Truer words have never been spoken. God Bless You ace, love you, mean it..

156 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

157 @Reggie1971 - I am currently drinking Mike's "Harder" Lemonade with the wife after a show in Birmingham, AL after a show. Have to say, not bad at all. Cheers.

158

<i> At the end, he realized that private enterprise was a god thing after all. </i>

Ack, unintentional ironic funny spelling error.

159 Can you explain to me how he is in any way a conservative hero? Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:15 AM (mAm+G) He stood with President Bush and the People of Iraq against Saddam Hussein and the evil insurgents. And when his lefty friends shit on him for doing so he told them to fuck off. A Conservative first must be brave and ready to stand up to bullies and whalefucking assholes. He did so. In spades. Conservatism and Christianity overlap, but one does not require the other.

160 garrett, honestly he wasn't a friend. He was just a guy I knew for a few weeks. I liked him well enough, but on a superficial level. He's a public figure so Leo and RIP can have their say whatever my personal opinions. Honestly, I agree with Hitch on this, so I think Hitch is quite beyond the reach of calumny. But I find it so self-refuting that a couple of people who seem to want you to know they really believe in the teachings of Christ have boiled it down to "ha-ha, now you get yours, atheist Satan-worshipper." This is obviously, I think, a PERSONAL vindication sort of thing. This is giving Leo and RIP pleasure to consider. This has little to do with the name of God they are inserting into their OWN vengeance fantasies. So what's he doing here? He's just being drafted into this to give a personal bit of spite a veneer of acceptability.

161 Is Mother Teresa is a sacred cow?  What??

162 149 >>>Otherwise I'm reminded of Hilaire Belloc's Epitaph on a Puritan:

>>>"He served his god faithfully and well,
and now he sees him face to face in Hell."

And given that Hitchens had nasty words for Mother Theresa, I can't say he doesn't deserve some backbiting in his own death.



Well, that was Belloc's voice--and it was a joke and a fine literary reference as well! Good God.

Oh, and by the way, it's Mother "Teresa." When Agnes Bojaxhiu entered religion she was given the name of "Teresa" for St. Teresa of Avila. Of course, she said she preferred another Carmelite saint Therese of Lisieux, also known as the Little Flower.

163 <sub><sup>I have the feeling that you and many others see religion and politics as a "yay team" kind of thing

The kind who hopes Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady blow out a knee if he's playing your guys, but he's the greatest man in the world if he's playing against a team you hate or he's on your fantasy football team</sup></sub>

_{^{Posted by: kbdabear at December 16, 2011 01:23 AM (Y+DPZ)}}

Shit, I'm a bad Christian then. Plus with the drinking, cussing, pron and fapping, I'm probably fucked like him.

164 >>Dude, I think you mean Rowan Williams.<< I certainly HOPE he did! Because otherwise...way too freaky dude. Black Adder/Mr. Bean/Archbishop of Canterbury..o_0

165 re 159 - And, as you can see (after a show...after a show...but I repeat myself), the "Harder" Lemonade is already having an effect on my ability to post coherently.

166 By the way, seriously, Hitchens was also a marxist and frequently a dick so feel free to criticize or say he doesn't deserve the lauding the right is now giving him. I honestly do not mind (or think there's anything wrong with that -- public figures don't get only nice words said about them in death. Neither do private figures, actually). I think a couple of people here should consider if they're expressing God's will or merely their own, and then blaming God for their own dark thoughts.

167

159@Reggie1971 - I am currently drinking Mike's "Harder" Lemonade with the wife after a show in Birmingham, AL after a show. Have to say, not bad at all. Cheers.

 

Cheers to you as well.  I'm tragically out of Mike's lemonade.  I've got four beers left in the fridge, and a commemorative bottle of 1979 Cabernet that my dad got during the 1984 GOP convention in Dallas.  I can't tell you how much self control it's taken me not to drink it when I've been out of booze.  I'll drink it if we get SCOAMF out of office....whether the cork disintegates into it or not.

168 Ya know, I was drunk the other night, am I forgivin, or what? Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 01:22 AM (R21xD) Completely. You did me no injury. I was worried I had said something stupid and injured you. It seems you bad day has passed by. This is a good thing.

169 As an American, the British accent also always helps take the edge off being insulted.

Posted by: Clubber Lang at December 16, 2011 01:25 AM (QcFbt)

Nah, him living here as well as Steyn proves that the accent don't mean shit. Americans perfected the Brits own language. Other than that, Hitchens was alright.

170 His life is graphic testimony that not all men's lives are black or white. Said some unforgivably, brutal things. Took some insanely courageous stands against his own on the Left. The last Trotskyite, I suppose. God's justice be done. I hope it's merciful.

171 I made no serious comment on Hitchens's ultimate disposition.

Can you explain to me how he is in any way a conservative hero?
Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:15 AM

Did he claim that he was?

This isn't an all in or all out kind of blog, in fact Ace has vented furiously at those with purity tests.

I'm also confident that like myself, Ace is not a big fan of the What Would Jesus Do/Say line of thinking

One of Jesus' last mortal acts was to promise paradise to a condemned and admitted criminal. I don't think that's on the 110 Percent Pure Conservative checklist...

172

I think a couple of people here should consider if they're expressing God's will

What fool knows God's will?

173 I saw him at my work. Don't want to say where that was. I had to personally help him (this was like, what, 5 or more years ago?) It seemed so strange, I assumed he only lived in England or something, and yet here he was in a western area of the US. He was a semi regular customer , so he must have spent a great deal of time nearby. Small world.

174 >>>What fool knows God's will? Some fools think that God exists largely to settle arguments for them.

175 ^{No we didn't. Hopper changed himself without any prodding by conservative bloggers.}

^{Posted by: Samuel Adams at December 16, 2011 01:24 AM (yGl9Q)}

I only want pure Christians and Conservatives. All others are not. The night Hopper passed, so many commenters were trying to start a new religion praising him.

176 Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 01:30 AM (nj1bB)

I always respected the fact that he spoke his mind. Hell, I watched the episode of the Maher show when he flipped off the audience. To me, he was a guy that pissed everybody off. When that happens, sometimes you have to take note of the guy pissing you off.

177 Completely.



You did me no injury. I was worried I had said something stupid and injured you.

It seems you bad day has passed by. This is a good thing.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 01:30 AM (kEKwc)

DUDE I am a raider fan, they got the shit beatin out of them, and thebroncos pulled out a win, that was the gist of it.

And the bottom line is, I am not as smart as the majority on aos, sadly.

178 BurP, erg, these are in fact mine. Why are you trying to convert me? You're an asshole. Go away. Are you really going to try to make a point about political hatred, you seething imbecile?

179 "I'm also confident that like myself, Ace is not a big fan of the What Would Jesus Do/Say line of thinking"

I think such a line of thinking can be great when guiding your own actions, but doesn't work anymore when evaluating others because Jesus didn't think we were effective judges of our peers.  We're so bad we might as well just forgive everybody we're pissed at.  I'm paraphrasing somewhat.

I imagine Jesus and Hitchens would have had lively conversation, as both were pretty provocative.

180 @Reggie - Ha! Well, while I can't toast to quite the same thing you're saving your good stuff for, I can assure you I'll be drinking that night either way. Maybe even with you guys.

181 Although I frequently disagreed with Hitchens, and was often infuriated with him, it still galls me that a drunk shut-in like Ace got to party with him and I didn't.  Hitchens deserves his place in history.  He was a truly unique and interesting character.

182 I'm sure I would have had many verbal fights with Hitchens, but at the very least he was an honest, true spirit who came by his ideas through thought and examination, rather than the usual Liberal Osmosis. 

He'll be missed.

183 ^{167 re 159 - And, as you can see (after a show...after a show...but I repeat myself), the "Harder" Lemonade is already having an effect on my ability to post coherently.}

^{Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 16, 2011 01:29 AM (sk3ka)}

I think it's more the "Liberal" than the "Harder Lemonade" having the effect on your ability to post coherently.

184 I didn't really get to party with him. Without naming names, some people in the group were sort of Hitchens Barnacles that formed a protective outer nucleus around him. He was in a permanent fan-huddle, which I could not reduce myself to trying to breach. I did get to talk to him here and there.

185 BurP, I don't believe in God, dopey.

186 And the bottom line is, I am not as smart as the majority on aos, sadly. Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 01:35 AM (R21xD) Football vexes the best of us. Not as smart? Feh. Some of us can find the cheese in record time, but we are still mice in a maze.

187 I guess there are no common causes conservatives had with Hitch... well, maybe except the flat-tax, opposition to abortion and the war against Jihadism. Trivial stuff, you know?

188 Like I said, I hope he found God at the end. Many have.

But he was a noxious force in most things--a prep-school Voltaire.

I would rather celebrate leftist atheists who found God and conservatism. Anyone remember Douglas Hyde or Bella Dodd or Eugene Genovese?

189

Hitchens was too obviously intelligent to have ignorance or laziness as an excuse for supporting Marxism, and so I have to question his overall character.

That being said, he got a few things right, and maybe got a few people to rethink a few things, and he did it very well. So that's not too shabby.

190

Shit, I'm a bad Christian then. Plus with the drinking, cussing, pron and fapping, I'm probably fucked like him.

Posted by: MrCaniac at December 16, 2011 01:29 AM

I'm hoping that the Almighty tells me that he doesn't sweat the small shit like that, especially in light of the horrors done by the monsters on earth

I'll leave the idea that God smiles when you kill an unbeliever to the types who fly passenger jets into occupied skyscrapers

191 If Hitch is playing chess with Jesus, Jesus just said, "Crap, two out of three?"

192 @MrCainiac - heh. Well, I'm half in the bag and I'm hanging out here, so my judgment is already severely impaired, isn't it?

193

This is obviously, I think, a PERSONAL vindication sort of thing. This is giving Leo and RIP pleasure to consider.

It is an awful combination of envy and resentment...

and you are fully correct that strays far from the path they profess to follow.

Regardless of your rank amongst those who knew the man, I feel for you having to deal with these asshats when you should be reflecting on whatever you took from that relationship.

I know ewoks are thick skinned creatures, I also know that you slice with a banhammer.  

 

194 He was obnoxious on a lot of things, including Israel. I repeat I don't think there's wrong with treating a public figure as such and noting his warts. I just don't get Leo Ladenson here, or "RIP," above. Not really feeling the "Christian spirit" from them. Feels more like some personal anger being dressed up as "Christianity" so they can pretend it's all righteous and high-minded and stuff.

195 Football vexes the best of us.

Not as smart? Feh.

Some of us can find the cheese in record time, but we are still mice in a maze.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 01:40 AM (kEKwc)

Yep, and I got God on my side. so theres that. You are good people..

Put your money on the Raiders, broncows going down, tee hee..

We will win the AFC West, just sayin..

And no, I am not saying I know what the fudge is gonna happen this weekend in football, so dont give me no shit..

196 I am sorry he died but I must admit that I didn't find him to be that interesting or brilliant.  He was socialist to the core, so I can't admire him for that.

197

you're postulating the many devilments Hitchens will now face, and delighting in his eternal torment, to be forever tormented, forever, beyond the time when the stars fade from the sky.

176 >>>What fool knows God's will?

198 _¹⁹²

_{^{Shit, I'm a bad Christian then. Plus with the drinking, cussing, pron and fapping, I'm probably fucked like him.}}

<sup>_{Posted by: MrCaniac at December 16, 2011 01:29 AM}

I'm hoping that the Almighty tells me that he doesn't sweat the small shit like that, especially in light of the horrors done by the monsters on earth

I'll leave the idea that God smiles when you kill an unbeliever to the types who fly passenger jets into occupied skyscrapers</sup>

^{Posted by: kbdabear at December 16, 2011 01:42 AM (Y+DPZ)}

I hope God doesn't think my tube sock is a mini Auschwitz then.

199 I would rather celebrate leftist atheists who found God and conservatism. Anyone remember Douglas Hyde or Bella Dodd or Eugene Genovese? Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:41 AM (mAm+G) I'd rather honor a great man and give no bow to any religion that in some minds looks askance at him.

200

I would have respected Hitchens more if he hadn't so blatantly turned to neo-athiesm as a means to get back into the good graces of the left following the seeming failures of the Iraq War. I am not arguing that Hitchens was not sincere. I simply think that unlike David Horrowitz he was unwilling to come to grips with the full implications of his anatomizing of one aspect of liberalism suggested about the entire body of liberalism. Of course the other side of this coin is that unlike some paleo-conservatives he did not let one policy dispute effect his perception of an entire movement, but it nonetheless seems to me that he would always have been uncomfortable not being welcome in Vanity Fair and Salon. When you are that tied to the organs of the establishment it is difficult for me to truly believe that you are a "truth-teller." But I don't really consider that a fault because the notion of Hitchens as a truth teller was largely not a self creation. Hitchens like Mencken poked at pretension without ever truly getting any closer to truth, because at the end of the day neither actually believed in truth.

201 ^{194 @MrCainiac - heh. Well, I'm half in the bag and I'm hanging out here, so my judgment is already severely impaired, isn't it?}

^{Posted by: A Liberal AoSHQ Reader, Really! at December 16, 2011 01:44 AM (sk3ka)}

It was pretty low hanging fruit.

202 No reason to even bring a banhammer up. There is no violation here. he wasn't a close enough friend that I would suggest nothing bad could be said, just out of respect for me. I repeat: Say bad things about him. And if some want to do the You're In Hell Now, Sinner! victory dance, they are entitled. But, again, I think a very personal bit of hatred is being cloaked in some Jesus-talk, as if that makes it better, when it seems to me it makes it worse: It's dragging in someone you claim to worship as Savior as a Referee of Last Appeal in your personal squabbles. I know for many believing Chrisians the idea of Hell is quite real, and the rules are well-established. I just didn't know it was considered acceptable to so transparently express one's own giddy joy at God's eternal punishment of your enemies. I thought at least some sorrow about it was required, or at least an attempt to convey it.

203 Here's Hitchens on the Church: "In contrast, the Catholic Church, which seems unconcerned by the number of impoverished women and children yoked to the wheel of uncontrolled childbearing, doesnÂ’t have that good a record on caring for children who are out of the womb and apparently fair game."


The Church only runs the largest private educational and healthcare systems in the world. It runs more hospices, nursing homes, orphanages, leprosaria, and clinics than any other organization on the face of the earth. Did you know that 90% of African-American women with a Ph.D. got their advanced degree at a Catholic university? Not a good record, eh?

As I said, Hitch was criminally ignorant about Christian history and theology.

204 Hitchens was an elegant voice. I shall miss reading new works by him. I am glad he lived. I am glad he left a legacy of words and videos behind so that others may experience him if they so desire.

205

187 BurP,

I don't believe in God, dopey.

Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 01:39 AM (nj1bB)

But do you believe in Doc?

Sorry, could'nt resist..

206 I imagine Jesus and Hitchens would have had lively conversation, as both were pretty provocative.
Posted by: Dustin at December 16, 2011 01:36 AM

Or maybe Jesus is telling him to have a seat, wait for his number to be called, he's really busy right now. Who knows? I don't

I believe that life exists on other planets in the galaxy but I don't know and can't realistically guess what kind of music they like

Same with our deities

207 I picked a piss-poor time to stay up late. Nite, Y'all

208 >>>As I said, Hitch was criminally ignorant about Christian history and theology. Lot of that goin' round these days.

209 And no, I am not saying I know what the fudge is gonna happen this weekend in football, so dont give me no shit.. Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 01:46 AM (R21xD) Shit withheld. I don't even follow football anymore. (No TV.) I miss it, though. I'll watch some when visiting family and friends over the Holidays.

210 "Or maybe Jesus is telling him to have a seat, wait for his number to be called, he's really busy right now. Who knows? I don't"

I was actually talking about the dude Jesus, as in if Hitchens and Jesus had lived in the same time.  Both were people who would debate points that annoyed a lot of people around them.  That takes very little on the internet, but in person that takes quite a personality.

211 Posted by: Random at December 16, 2011 12:06 AM (YiE0S)

As a cancer survivor, my heart goes out to you. I pray that you can see the beauty and majesty of a simple sunrise.

212 211 And no, I am not saying I know what the fudge is gonna happen this weekend in football, so dont give me no shit..

Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 01:46 AM (R21xD)

Shit withheld. I don't even follow football anymore. (No TV.)

I miss it, though. I'll watch some when visiting family and friends over the Holidays.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 01:54 AM (kEKwc)

But do you still want to Marry me?

213 204 I just didn't know it was considered acceptable to so transparently express one's own giddy joy at God's eternal punishment of your enemies. I thought at least some sorrow about it was required, or at least an attempt to convey it.



We get it, we get it. You've got issues with hell. And you've got a time machine and you've gone back in history to BFF David Mamet.


Consider that horse beaten to death.

(But don't suppose you're really descrying anyone's heart here.)

214 I wonder why I have no hatred towards Hitch even though I feel hatred towards other left-wingers. And I never did hate him, so it's not just because he's passed away from a painful disease. 1) Hitch was never a politician and wielded no power over me. 2) Hitch was funny. That helps a lot. (Though I find myself hating Alec Baldwin even though I used to think he was quite funny.) 3) Hitch varied his targets. So if he was attacking you, you only had to wait a couple months and he'd find another group to attack. As opposed to the humorless activist types who just hammer day-in, day-out at the same target for years on end. 4) The accent. Does help a lot. I was watching some UK shows recently. Had a # of anti-Tory jabs in it. Didn't phase me a bit even though they meant to insult right-wingers, but they used slightly different words so my brain kind of just ignored the insults.

215 >>>We get it, we get it. You've got issues with hell. I don't have issues with hell. But I didn't know Hell was The Cornfield you get to wish your enemies into.

216

God's eternal punishment

?

The second death.

The punishment is death, not a torture chamber. God will not torture you for 'all eternity' for sins during 4 score and 10.

217 now i'm done. nite all.

218 But do you still want to Marry me? Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 01:55 AM (R21xD) You are taken. It is too late. I shall be content to stand at the far corner, catching a glimpse now and then.

219 >>I believe that life exists on other planets in the galaxy but I don't know and can't realistically guess what kind of music they like Same with our deities<< Is that yours kbdabear? I hope so. I like it.

220 217 >>>We get it, we get it. You've got issues with hell.

I don't have issues with hell.



The repeated umbradge you've taken even at joking suggestions that Hitchens is damned suggests you do.

221 Feels more like some personal anger being dressed up as "Christianity" so they can pretend it's all righteous and high-minded and stuff.

Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 01:45 AM

It's the "yay team" attitude that drives that, but God loves MY team so you're evil.

How many liberals do we know that in their own life live "conservative" lifestyles and conservatives who act "liberal"?

"He may be a prick, but he's OUR prick"

222 It's kind of annoying when a Christian says something people don't like, and then it becomes "Christians do this" or whatever, and it's open season to attack them all. Ace is expressly not doing this, I'm just saying.

 As a Christian, my thoughts on someone like Hitchens are odd. He seemed to be a principled person who lived his life with honor. And naturally, he's a human being that did no real evil...so any hatred is undeserved from my point of view. It's hard for me to have much warmth for someone that personally attacked all I stand for, though. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but it's just a human reaction.

 I don't hope he was right, for my sake. Nevertheless, I take no joy in his fate if I'm right.

223 221 >>I believe that life exists on other planets in the galaxy but I don't know and can't realistically guess what kind of music they like

Same with our deities<<

Is that yours kbdabear?

I hope so.

I like it.
Posted by: Deety at December 16, 2011 02:00 AM

Thanks. Even Joe Biden finds a blind squirrel now and then

224 In Memory of Elizabeth Cotton

225 Wanna know something weird Hitch said? This doesn't reflect terribly well on him, but he was drunk when he said it, as usual. You know he was a man of the left, even as he drifted right, right? So we're at some meeting of Shi'a reformers, or Shi'a liberals, at least. And, weird thing, we're supposed to do the talking to them. (I had no idea I had to give a speech to Shi'a reformers; what the hell?) Anyway, Hitch is talking, well-lubricated, and he's contrasting the more liberal (as in "advanced") Shi'a to their Hezzbollah brethren to the south. And he's yapping, and he's saying, "It is quite obvious when you leave the more liberal Shi'a neighborhoods for the Hezballah controlled ones. The colors get dimmer, the women get uglier, the cars get older, the people are all slow-moving and sad and (big grin of relish) POOR..." Anyway, he really lit up when he uttered that insult: POOR. That was his big closer, his best insult. I have to emphasize he stressed that more than anything else. He spat it. Which I thought was surprising. Wasn't he still supposedly some socialist or something, in union with the poor? Apparently not so much. But it was true, the Hezballah neighborhoods were obviously the ghettos. Stupid and evil have bad consequences.

226 And if some want to do the You're In Hell Now, Sinner! victory dance, they are entitled.

Just getting back but, you seem to think I said this or something like it. I never did and never would.

227

 I don't hope he was right, for my sake. Nevertheless, I take no joy in his fate if I'm right.

 

In that respect....I really hope you're not right.  I respectfully think you aren't.

228 I don't believe in Conservative Heroes.  Most of them, the ones who are trumpeted and who trumpet themselves the loudest, turn out to have feet of clay.  (See the entire primary field.)  The most conservative intellectual value, to me, is the ability and willingness to think independently and arrive at one's own conclusions, independent of the prevailing wisdom.  Hitchens appealed to so many conservatives because he was able to do this, and the Left would be far less vile if it had more in its ranks who were willing to actually think about their own beliefs.

I'll take a sincere atheist over a religious dogmatic who believes in the kind of God who could have no use for one of His own creations in the next world.

229 >>>The punishment is death, not a torture chamber. God will not torture you for 'all eternity' for sins during 4 score and 10. I got what little Bible-teaching I have from some born again Christians (I don't know what denomination) but they taught the "eternal torment" version.

230 224 And naturally, he's a human being that did no real evil...so any hatred is undeserved from my point of view.



That's a pretty anti-intellectual point of view. His works did great harm. He was an apologist for leftist ideologies that condemned millions to death and destruction in the 20/c.

He was also a dime-store atheist who probably led many away from faith. "Better to have a millstone hung around his neck . . . ."

231 From Matthew 18
¹² “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? ¹³ And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. ¹⁴ In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

There's some disagreement in the wording of translations (this is NIV), but the basic point here is that there is no rejoicing in Heaven when a soul is finally and irretrievably lost. Those of you doing a happy dance on Christopher's metaphoric grave (on the presumption that he failed to come around before the end) might want to take a step back and think about whether it is your new nature in Christ or your old Adam that is guiding your choice of words tonight.

232 RIP, You're right, I'm sorry. I thought it was you. I'm sorry.

233 The repeated umbradge you've taken even at joking suggestions that Hitchens is damned suggests you do. Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 02:00 AM (mAm+G) Eternal damnation. Only a sick fuck would take a man like Christopher Hitchens and torture him until the end of Time. I am a skeptic on the existence of God. I think He could exist, probably does, but have seen no evidence for it. If He does exist, and if he is a Dexter, well, we ended up in one hell of a bad luck Universe.

234 EVERYONE has issues with hell! Who reads Dante's 'Inferno'? Pretty much everybody. 'Purgatorio'? Eh, some people. 'Paradiso'? People Majoring in Italian? Same with Milton but more so. EVERRYONE reads 'Paradise Lost' sometimes more than once. What kind of grind can get through 'Paradise Regained' even when it's required reading? I think that Sam Clemens had the best of it in some of his stories, quite frankly.

235 220 But do you still want to Marry me?

Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 01:55 AM (R21xD)

You are taken. It is too late.

I shall be content to stand at the far corner, catching a glimpse now and then.

Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 01:59 AM (kEKwc)

Hell to the no, you will marry me..

 eman

Just kidding..

God Bless.

Thanks aos

I read all the rest, they are the garbage sites, aos is the good stuff.

236 Of course, those guys (the ones who tried to convert me) also I think taught the "You should rejoice in damnation, because that is, of course, God's Justice, and why should you not take pleasure in His Justice?" version of things. I think they taught that. My memory's hazy.

237

231>>> The punishment is death, not a torture chamber. God will not torture you for 'all eternity' for sins during 4 score and 10.

I got what little Bible-teaching I have from some born again Christians (I don't know what denomination) but they taught the "eternal torment" version.

 

It all depends on the individual iteration of interpretation.  The Dante's inferno stuff really does seem to be a stretch for me beyond Hebrew and Greek language.

238 They were also ex-Catholics who had become Born Again Protestants, and believed (seriously) that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, and Satan's Church on Earth.

239 "
I'll take a sincere atheist over a religious dogmatic who believes in the kind of God who could have no use for one of His own creations in the next world.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at December 16, 2011 02:07 AM (MWcDw)"

I'm not sure what you're taking him for, but I think Hitchens was takeable if you wanted a provocative person to argue with, and not so great as a leader.

I think anyone in the GOP primary field other than Paul would be a million times better for their intended goal than Hitchens, a marxist after all.

"The most conservative intellectual value, to me, is the ability and willingness to think independently and arrive at one's own conclusions, independent of the prevailing wisdom. "

Not sure what you think the word conservative means.  This is classical liberalism.  Individuality is the heart of it.

I do agree that Hitchens thought for himself, arrived at his own conclusions, and this is of great merit.  I'm quite sure that a great many people, such as those who believe in the existence of hell, did the same thing.

I guess I don't really grok the concept of praising A basically by saying how little he was like B whom is soooo horrible.

240

Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 02:14 AM (nj1bB)

 

and, somehow they failed to win you over...hard to imagine.

241 Times like these I'm glad I was born and raised Catholic. I'm about as lapsed as you can get these days, but it doesn't really matter what I believe now, Doesn't really matter what I say or do. I've already got all the right boxes checked. I'm good.

242

@151

Hey!  Watch it there buddy.  No need for that kind of talk.  Don't even think about what bad thoughts somebody else might be thinking about Aaron Rodgers.....er.....and stuff. 

 

Bad vibes......dude

 

 

Bad vibes

243 Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 02:11 AM (R21xD)

244 Everyone's works have an impact on the world, Leo. But honestly, I can't hate someone who was expressing his viewpoint...even if that viewpoint is something I find distasteful. I have hate in my heart for those who commit actions that nobody can concievably deny their inherent evil, like murder of innocent people.

 God will judge people's actions and their effect on others, but I see it as a shame to lose anyone who isn't a complete monster. Most of us are a mixture of good and bad qualities, and I'm humble enough to know that if my every utterance was public...people would find a lot of it objectionable. There is no polite mask in public life.

 Reggie, it's all good. Reality isn't defined by how you or I feel, so I'm not offended when people disagree.

245 I'll take a sincere atheist over a religious dogmatic who believes in the kind of God who could have no use for one of His own creations in the next world. Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at December 16, 2011 02:07 AM

I doubt any god who inflicts pain for his own pleasure !

246 "Only a sick fuck would take a man like Christopher Hitchens and torture him until the end of Time. "

It really is very hard for me to accept there is a hell because of this.

I just don't understand how that could be.

But whatever.  Different strokes for different folks.

247 I've already got all the right boxes checked. I'm good. Posted by: Clubber Lang at December 16, 2011 02:17 AM (QcFbt) Same here. Tickets punched. Forms signed, stamped, and notarized.

248 More scotch, less fighting.

Or scotch, then fighting.

249 240 They were also ex-Catholics who had become Born Again Protestants, and believed (seriously) that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, and Satan's Church on Earth.

Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 02:14 AM

They don't shower very often either !!

250 Bourbon is for fighting, son.

251 >>>and, somehow they failed to win you over...hard to imagine. One thing I criticize religious people for is so frequently emphasizing the hardest-edged *peripheral* tenants of their religion over the core part, which, if I understand it, is: "be a fisher as of men" "be Christ's Ambassadors on earth" "spread the joy of Christ's love" And instead of that core message -- which, again correct me if I'm wrong, is the bible's core message, and not some watered-down liberal tripe, but the genuine message -- there's a lot of peripheral stuff which seems designed expressly to exclude. I argued with someone here about whether the most important thing to tell a gay guy was "Christ loves you and wants you to accept his gift of salvation" or "Homosexuality is a sin" and I remember there was a genuine argument there, my correspondent argued that both were of top importance. Really? Then why is John 3:16 frequently cited as the key message?

252 TSA has a booth at the Pearly Gates. Lie back and think of England.

253 238 Of course, those guys (the ones who tried to convert me) also I think taught the "You should rejoice in damnation, because that is, of course, God's Justice, and why should you not take pleasure in His Justice?" version of things.

I think they taught that. My memory's hazy. Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 02:12 AM

What does God need with a starship?

254

Reggie, it's all good. Reality isn't defined by how you or I feel, so I'm not offended when people disagree.

 

I understand and agree.  I think reality is ultimately a mystery.  We are all involved in (perhaps a vain) effot to achieve an understanding of it.

255

individual iteration of interpretation really, you don't get this?

Everyone thinks they have the answer..

His eye sees every precious thing.

Night All, God Bless.

Ace, thanks for the number #3 conservative blog, well done..

I found you from lgf and someone steered me to aos, and I am glad.

Night All.

Ace, fight the good fight..

256

257 254 TSA has a booth at the Pearly Gates.

Lie back and think of England. Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 02:22 AM

Damn, I had a theory that it was like the DMV

258 I hate emotional religious arguments, so I won't get into them in this setting. I'm more of a "let's talk it out" guy, rather than insults and name calling. It doesn't exactly serve the purpose of winning people over.

 Take care, people.

259 I got what little Bible-teaching I have from some born again Christians (I don't know what denomination) but they taught the "eternal torment" version.

That's one of those varying-interpretation-why-we-have-denominations things. I think the traditional view is more that Lucifer has free reign in Hell to do what he wishes with those left to his 'care' (I couldn't really tell you where that came from and don't really buy it). Dante's Inferno has some ideas in that vein that were probably not his invention, but they're not really laid out in that kind of detail in the Bible, either.

My own reading of it is that 'Hell' is more of a storage tank for the dead, and not necessarily just the lost (one of the epistles talks about Jesus spending the time between crucifixition and resurrection there mainly to claim all the faithful Jews up to that time-but he was there in victory, not for further punishment). The idea of an Inferno comes from Revelation when towards the end, Hell is tossed into the lake of fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. That could mean eternal torment. Or it could mean annihilation. I don't really know.

260 Yeah, sometimes I consider not attending church in another religion. The whole getting your own planet deal in Mormonism sounds pretty awesome. But my Mormon friends seem to have to do a lot of work to get that planet. Whereas I can just ride this Catholic thing out without having to do anything more. I basically have Catholic tenure, they can't kick me out now Still, the Mormon planet thing is tempting.

261

individual iteration of interpretation really, you don't get this?

 

 

Uh no, I guess not...but good nite

262

I found you from lgf and someone steered me to aos, and I am glad.

Night All.

Ace, fight the good fight..

Posted by: lous a girl at December 16, 2011 02:23 AM

Amazing Ace, how sweet the sound
That saved a Lizardoid like me
I once was downdinged
But now I see ...

263 "What does God need with a starship?"

Hey, I just watched that last night.

264 What if Sharpton and Jackson are right?

(Shudder)

265 Well. I hope he had a hot nurse and felt her up like crazy just before he kicked the bucket.

266 "I argued with someone here about whether the most important thing to tell a gay guy was "Christ loves you and wants you to accept his gift of salvation" or "Homosexuality is a sin""

That's a nice way of boiling down an important question.  Basically, what is Christianity?  Instructions for how to live, or a message about Jesus's life and death and what they mean?

It's a fraction each, but how much of each?

Those who are trying to get right with Jesus by living a certain way, in exchange for not being roasted, might be missing something by not just doing it for its own sake.  That's always been my objection to Hell as a motivator.  Duress.

267 265 "What does God need with a starship?"

Hey, I just watched that last night.
Posted by: Random at December 16, 2011 02:27 AM

Thank God for dead batteries in the remote

268 DMV, TSA...my favorite take on heaven is the movie "Defending Your Life" with Albert Brooks and Meryl Streep. It's what the road to heaven would look like if humans created it - FUBAR and hilarious. IMO for whatever it's worth, whatever happens after we die, it's beyond any of our comprehension, which leaves me outside mainstream religious belief, but attached to spirituality. Night all.

269 >>Which I thought was surprising. Wasn't he still supposedly some socialist or something, in union with the poor?<< I dunno. Seems in keeping to me. Progressive Socialists, in the old fashioned sense, have always been appalled by poverty, most especially when it manifests itself to them in the form of poor people. That's why they inevitably sign up for projects ultimately designed to eradicate poor people. Not to eradicate poverty, mind you but poor people. I think this might explain his fascination with Orwell as a thinking humanitarian but... He did have a certain "aesthetic" sensibility that if he couldn't overcome he could at least assuage by calling himself one of the last of the "Trotskyites". What is that even supposed to *mean*, I've always wanted to ask?

270 >>>My own reading of it is that 'Hell' is more of a storage tank for the dead, and not necessarily just the lost (one of the epistles talks about Jesus spending the time between crucifixition and resurrection there mainly to claim all the faithful Jews up to that time-but he was there in victory, not for further punishment) The harrowing of hell? The version I got was punishment until the final judgment, which would happen at some later point, I think after Christ's 1000 year reign on earth (of course following Armageddon). And then, upon final Judgement, the prison hell is tossed into the Lake of Fire, for eternity, all in to burn forever. I think the idea was Satan punished you until the final judgement, but after the final judgment, you all went into the lake of fire, satan included. And they said the REAL torment would be the darkness of separation from god, but I didn't buy that, because they were saying I'd literally be tortured for a 1000 years, and then cast into a lake of fire to burn (alive, feeling) forever, and to the extent I could imagine "separation from God," it does tend to seem less torturous than the actual physical tortures.

271 258

Posted by: ace at December 16, 2011 02:23 AM

Had to smite your comment there, Ace

Nothing personal, it's business

272 I'll pray for you, Ace and all the morons.

Please pray for me, a sinner.

273

Sweet 'n Sour Jesus

274

Those who are trying to get right with Jesus by living a certain way, in exchange for not being roasted, might be missing something by not just doing it for its own sake. That's always been my objection to Hell as a motivator. Duress.

 

Honestly, there is scant biblical indication of an eternal fiery torment.   Especially in the Old Testament.

I'm talking pre-KJV here BTW

 

275 Ace, I think it's the countercultural instinct in some people. If the entire world is saying something is perfectly fine, then it's incumbent on us to tell the "truth" as we see it instead of the message we've been told to give traditionally. People hate to feel like they're losing...and so they respond with the same fervor their opponents do. They think I'm evil? Well, THEY'RE evil. It's vicious.

 I try to be humble in regards to sin and personal shortcomings. I fail at it quite often, but it's an effort I try to put forth. I remember C.S Lewis mentioning that (according to Christianity) people's natures and temperaments are affected by God's grace and redemption...but natural inclinations and biology play a role as well. So, someone might be blessed with a good disposition and a kind heart...and he might routinely act callously. He's actually a bad person, his genetics mask it. Another person might be naturally cantankerous with an anger problem, but he tries real hard to avoid it and act decently. Robbed of their genetic gifts/faults, the mean guy is actually a much better man.

 The point is, I extend this to things I don't like in the culture. Because of the way the world is, a lot of people have inclinations to stuff I think is harmful. But at their core...if they are moral people then I think that matters to some extent. Our worth as people shouldn't be defined by genetic leanings or personality inclinations.

 I hope I'm making sense, I need to get some sleep. Later, guys.

276 So just summing up my memory of The End: The Rapture The Tribulation Armageddon Christ Rises and Defeats Satan and presides over a 1000 year paradise on earth; this is also the Resurrection, when all get their perfect bodies to live with Christ on earth All who are dead, meanwhile, are in hell, being tortured At Final Judgement, all the saved go to heaven (I don't think they were actually in real heaven before this, but some kind of heavenly areas which is not actually the final paradise) (including those in Abraham's Bosom or purgatory or the other lesser afterlifes) All the damned go into the lake of fire, including Satan (until then he'd ruled in Hell) And then eternity, in one place or another. It was convoluted but that's becuase they were attempting to include every single description of the end of things, from various parts of the bible, and there seemed to be inconsistent descriptions. So, a multipart Ending, where all the various statements about the End are given a place.

277 <sub><sup>205 Here's Hitchens on the Church: "In contrast, the Catholic Church, which seems unconcerned by the number of impoverished women and children yoked to the wheel of uncontrolled childbearing, doesnÂ’t have that good a record on caring for children who are out of the womb and apparently fair game."


The Church only runs the largest private educational and healthcare systems in the world. It runs more hospices, nursing homes, orphanages, leprosaria, and clinics than any other organization on the face of the earth. Did you know that 90% of African-American women with a Ph.D. got their advanced degree at a Catholic university? Not a good record, eh?

As I said, Hitch was criminally ignorant about Christian history and theology.</sup></sub>

_{^{Posted by: Leo Ladenson at December 16, 2011 01:51 AM (mAm+G)}}

The Jewish faith does the same, as do the Mormons, Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians.

I would venture that more African American women probably got their advanced degrees from a state school. Maybe women from Africa get their advanced degrees from Catholic universities.

As for it being one of the largest at doing x, y, and z, yes it does. It is also one of the largest religious sects in the world, so it should be the largest at doing those things.

The only thing I have against the Roman Catholic church is that they consider anyone who leaves the HRCC to join any other Christian church as a heretic. I have several friends who have no relationship with their family because they joined the Presbyterian Church. It's not like they are renouncing anything, but according to the HRCC, they are now heretics.

278 Handy end-o-days map.

279 I always interpreted Hell to be separation from God.

If one were to map that out literally, that would mean being stuck in the middle of the Sahara desert in the middle of the night - and no matter how far you wandered, you still wouldn't find any hint of civilization.

And with that comforting thought, it's time to go to bed. G'night, all

280 lol I sounded pretentious. Figures, when I'm tired I act like a lame college professor.

281 So, a multipart Ending, where all the various statements about the End are given a place.

Put it in your movie brother.

282 That is even more complicated than the way I heard it.

283

@272 ace

It sounds biblical to me,. The jist of it is that if you want to be separate from God - great. enjoy the warm weather; otherwise, welcome to paradise.

284 Crazee, thanks. I'm fading myself. Night.

285 Do demons work in shifts? Do they punch a clock? Do they retire and then hang around at work until it gets kind of pathetic? Maybe after a billion years of agony the damned get used to it and chat with the demons a bit, learn about their home life.

286 @267 Sadly, that Vanity Fair column makes it clear that Hitch's final months were extremely painful and his life had been reduced to lying feebly in bed desperately waiting for the next pain med injection, occasionally typing out a few words when he had the energy and retained sensation in his hands. And he describes the pain of his radiation treatments as being beyond the power of any pain meds to control and to the point of wishing for death, but being too weak at that point to actually do anything. He describes how he imagined he would face death --- with that old Hitch spit-in-your-eye defiance. But the reality is the cancer and the treatments reduced him to just begging for anything to make the pain go away, even oblivion.

287

If one were to map that out literally, that would mean being stuck in the middle of the Sahara desert in the middle of the night - and no matter how far you wandered, you still wouldn't find any hint of civilization.

Are there cookies?

288 But let's be frank here: you never wanted my friendship. And uh, you were afraid to be in my debt.

I understand. You found paradise in America, had a good trade, made a good living. The police protected you; and there were courts of law. And you didn't need a friend of me. But uh, now you come to me and you say --  give me justice." -- But you don't ask with respect. You don't offer friendship.

What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? Had you come to me in friendship, then this scum that ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And that by chance if an honest man such as yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies. And then they would fear you.

Good. Some day, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But uh, until that day -- accept this justice as a gift

289 He describes how he imagined he would face death --- with that old Hitch spit-in-your-eye defiance. But the reality is the cancer and the treatments reduced him to just begging for anything to make the pain go away, even oblivion.

This is one of the many reasons I support suicide being an option for anyone at any time for any reason. People should be able to buy effective means, not be reduced to hit or miss, possibly (probably) disabling but non-lethal methods.

290 From John 3
¹³ No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.  ¹⁴ Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,  ¹⁵ that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

  ¹⁶ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  ¹⁷ For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  ¹⁸ Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of GodÂ’s one and only Son.  ¹⁹ This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. ²⁰ Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. ²¹ But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The whole passage is important, but the part we tend to screw up is verse 17. The natural state of us all leads to condemnation, and there is a fear among us that if we, as Christ's ambassadors, fail to speak out against sin (you mention homosexuality, but it would apply to any sin that people want to believe isn't really a sin), then we're aiding and abetting the false belief that it's not a problem. Which deprives any sinner in question of the motivation to repent.

If you look throughout the Gospels, you'll find that Jesus doesn't convert anyone with condemnations. He's highly critical of some people who are not doing right by God, but they don't change their ways. The people whose lives he changes are the ones who are already broken by their own awareness of their sinfulness.

Some of our failure is likely our old nature trying to point at the faults of others so we look good by comparison, but I don't think that's the bulk of it.

291 Maybe after a billion years of agony the damned get used to it and chat with the demons a bit, learn about their home life.
Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 02:41 AM

Nope, against union rules

292 Ace, no problem. I always appreciate your effort to differentiate between people with similar views...even if we have the same "label" or belief system.

 Religion is a complicated thing. I only became a Christian because I chose to follow Christ, otherwise I had no use for anything supernatural.

293 Posted by: The Godfather at December 16, 2011 02:42 AM (Y+DPZ)

Hah, classic.

294 He describes how he imagined he would face death --- with that old Hitch spit-in-your-eye defiance. But the reality is the cancer and the treatments reduced him to just begging for anything to make the pain go away, even oblivion. Posted by: Clubber Lang at December 16, 2011 02:41 AM (QcFbt) Yeah. Fate shit on him big time.

295 >>He was also a dime-store atheist who probably led many away from faith.<< Man, I have so totally got this faith thing wrong!!! Had NO IDEA that an adult could be *led* into, much less, out of it. The denomial tradition of my up-bringing, seems pretty clear, that faith is a gift of God's grace that you can't really earn or anything. HE bridges that chasm FOR you, or he doesn't. Either way, not much you can do about it but wait to be blessed. In the meantime...

296 ^{"I argued with someone here about whether the most important thing to tell a gay guy was "Christ loves you and wants you to accept his gift of salvation" or "Homosexuality is a sin""}

We are men, we are flawed, we are and will sin. If you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are in the club. That's about it. It doesn't matter when you do it, whether it is when you are young or on your deathbed, it does not matter. The verse those who were first shall be last and those who were last shall be first really rings true.

Bottom line, we shouldn't be worried about what others are doing, because we are also sinners.

297 I will miss reading him. I may not have always agreed, but it was always a provocative experience to read his stuff.

As for his smoking to the end, I offer this.

The bitter cup gets passed to us all in due time. How we drink from it is up to us.

298

Actually the "poor" anecdote kind of explains alot about the current state of political and cultural atheism as opposed to theological athiesm and political liberalism in general. For the neo-atheist like Hitchens Nietzsche's critique of Christiainty is reduced to "slave morality." It is why much of the left seems so uninterested in actual you know poor people. Since H.G. Wells and later Foucault the left has been poisoned with a Nietscheaen snobbery which disdains weakness.

This disdain of weakness could synthesize with the Marxian notion of the world historical role of the proletariate, but once it became clear that the welfare state replaced world revolution as the platform of the left the poor lost their assocation with the force of history. To compensate, the left has increasingly turned its latent Nietscheanism towards an attack on religion as the slave morality which allows for weakness to persist in this world. I consider this the reason why many secularists are so interested in Tebow's failing and yet where effectively cowed by Kurt Warner's success into focusing their disdain on Brenda Warner. It is also why the antimating spirit of Lyndon Johnson's reforms seems so differnt that Obama's despite the fact that ideologically they are very similar. The left now has clients not consituents.

299 _³⁰⁰

_{^{Actually the "poor" anecdote kind of explains alot about the current state of political and cultural atheism as opposed to theological athiesm and political liberalism in general. For the neo-atheist like Hitchens Nietzsche's critique of Christiainty is reduced to "slave morality." It is why much of the left seems so uninterested in actual you know poor people. Since H.G. Wells and later Foucault the left has been poisoned with a Nietscheaen snobbery which disdains weakness.}}

_{^{This disdain of weakness could synthesize with the Marxian notion of the world historical role of the proletariate, but once it became clear that the welfare state replaced world revolution as the platform of the left the poor lost their assocation with the force of history. To compensate, the left has increasingly turned its latent Nietscheanism towards an attack on religion as the slave morality which allows for weakness to persist in this world. I consider this the reason why many secularists are so interested in Tebow's failing and yet where effectively cowed by Kurt Warner's success into focusing their disdain on Brenda Warner. It is also why the antimating spirit of Lyndon Johnson's reforms seems so differnt that Obama's despite the fact that ideologically they are very similar. The left now has clients not consituents.}}

_{^{Posted by: tennvols87 at December 16, 2011 02:56 AM (YW07Z)}}

I always love how the people attacking Tebow always talk about the great respect they always had for Warner, Reggie White, Joe Gibbs and Tom Landry, but when they were alive and/or playing, they were the subject of ridicule by the same people.

300 >>Bourbon is for fighting, son.<< So, then if all you guys start drinking bourbon, I'd be just a supernumerary. 'Kay!

301 Resquiescat in pace.

302 Mr. Spades, Ace just seems too familiar, your banner quote suggests that you of all people should recognize where that Hitchens quote is coming from. Hitchens resembles no one so much as Mencken. For both, to call someting poor or backward, i.e. the Savannah of the Beauzarts, is to defeat it.

303 Gee. I said Mencken is my hero (man-crush) earlier today.

Bless you both, gents!

304 Got to this late tonight and glad I did. I have always despised liberals who said cruel things about conservatives when they died. Shadow boxing with a dead man seems rather cowardly to me. Hitch seemed like one of my family members. Respect was more important than life in our home. Like the Spartans had to fight for food to survive, we had to win arguments to gain respect. Makes one a difficult friend at best. So respecting ones own veracity and ability to defend it against all comers becomes a creed of sorts. Perverted and pathetic I agree. So forgive me for admiring a damaged soul with a superb mind. A man for whom I have almost no common ground. I hold out hope that the thorn has been removed from the lions paw and he is finally at peace. Each man's death diminishes me....

305 I'm sad to see Hitchens go, he was an interesting person.

306 The version I got was punishment until the final judgment, which would happen at some later point, I think after Christ's 1000 year reign on earth (of course following Armageddon).

Revelation is particularly open to interpretation mainly because it's hard to wrap one's head around. It's been a while since I looked at the historic interpretations (pre-millenialism vs. post millenialism), so I'm hesitant to get into detail on those. I know there was a thought for a while that the world was getting better, so folks thought when it finally got good enough, Christ would return and rule 1000 years, and, I don't know, leave again and the antichrist would take over briefly before Judgment Day. WW1 and WW2 kind of quashed that idea. In any case, many of us are at this point are amillenial and generally consider the 1000 years to be a metaphor for the perfect length of time (10 times itself three times) for Christ to rule through the Church (the time from Pentecost to the last moment the faith has influence on earth).

I'm still murky on the ideas surrounding the Left Behind series. That basic set of ideas is relatively new. Which doesn't invalidate it-if the end is near, maybe God is opening some people's eyes to something that's been in the Bible for 2000 years that people in other times didn't need to know. Those are in my category of "I don't know."

And they said the REAL torment would be the darkness of separation from god, but I didn't buy that, because they were saying I'd literally be tortured for a 1000 years, and then cast into a lake of fire to burn (alive, feeling) forever, and to the extent I could imagine "separation from God," it does tend to seem less torturous than the actual physical tortures.

I had a severe personal break from my church some time ago (and have since returned due to growth out of my failings), and there was a period when I lashed out at God over the matter and I felt Him recede for a long time. I think it's something one can't understand without experience. It wasn't a lack of faith, but a break in the prayer relationship. I think it would be much worse to know God for a certainty (having been through Judgment Day) and then forever shut away. I think I'd prefer annihilation given that choice.

It does seem to me that there's an interpretive inconsistency in seeing damnation as a permanent complete separation from God, but that he would bother to maintain anyone in that state, in physical torment or otherwise.

307 Not sure what you think the word conservative means.
Posted by: Dustin at December 16, 2011 02:16 AM (rQ/Ue)

It's not being a perpetually whiny, long-winded butt-hurt cretin, for one thing.

That lets you out.

308 To those who say Hitch was "a socialist". I would remind you that unless you are a self contained entity, with your own agrarian society, currency and army and navy, we are all now socialists, and we have been for well nigh one hundred years.

Read it and weep.

309 I have several friends who have no relationship with their family because they joined the Presbyterian Church. It's not like they are renouncing anything, but according to the HRCC, they are now heretics.

Posted by: MrCaniac at December 16, 2011 02:36 AM (uuOfy)

That's rather silly if true, since the HRCC recognizes the Presbyterian Baptism as sacramental.

They might have some issues with the church, and they may be heretics, but that's in an official definition, which isn't so much like the common understanding of the word.  Heresy of that level is a sin, but but if we cut off contact from people who sinned at that low a threshold, we'd be hermits.  Perhaps there is more to that relationship than just the religious aspect, eh?

310 >>I consider this the reason why many secularists are so interested in Tebow's failing and yet where effectively cowed by Kurt Warner's success into focusing their disdain on Brenda Warner. It is also why the antimating spirit of Lyndon Johnson's reforms seems so differnt that Obama's despite the fact that ideologically they are very similar. The left now has clients not consituents.<< Uhm, I don't get football, obviously. Who is Brenda Warner, she must be really old, if she knows LBJ!

311 Good riddance of bad rubbish, as Hitch would say.

312 Late, but Fuck You Bomber. What an ignorant, piece-of-shit tasteless troll you are. Go fuck yourself.

313 >>And they said the REAL torment would be the darkness of separation from god, but I didn't buy that, because they were saying I'd literally be tortured for a 1000 years, and then cast into a lake of fire to burn (alive, feeling) forever, and to the extent I could imagine "separation from God," it does tend to seem less torturous than the actual physical tortures.<< Nah, I met some of these Carneys when I was 8yrs. old too. Me and my little brother, had a broad leash to do what we would around the school play-ground andt he neighborhood during the summer. My MOM, just about, yanked my head off my torso, when she came to collect me from a tent revival meeting!.

314 >>8 So just summing up my memory of The End:<< So. Why is that the test? Why on EARTH is that interesting?

315 Judge not lest ye be judged, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, love one another, and rest in peace, Mr. Hitchens.

316 Do these alleged Christians gloating over a man's painful, prolonged death simply because he was an atheist and a leftist actually think God is thinking, "Yeah! You tell 'em, kids! When you get up here, I'm gonna shake your hand and buy you a beer!"

The notion that Hitch is in hell right now because he said publicly that he was an atheist is absurd. We don't know what he actually believed, and his final photos showed quite a lot of fear in his eyes. Even if he was an atheist until the bitter end, so fucking what?

I'm just a human, but I wouldn't send anyone to or allow anyone to slip into eternal hellfire just because they didn't believe in me. The Creator is going to have infinitely more capacity for understanding than I do, and He's not a vindictive, petty shithead.

I don't worry about Hitch's soul. I bet what happened was a whole bunch of departed folks greeted him with "Surprise!" and he was flooded with relief, and then there was some kind of life review (which is apparently what happens, based on the testimonial of people who've died and been resuscitated), and he--being a man of amazing intelligence--expressed remorse for his various sins, and then he got to move on to the next stage, whatever that is.

I happen to think that we come back here a few times until we get it right, and then we're sent on to something I can't comprehend. But I don't worry about that part, because my lack of comprehension is the result of the reducer valve that is in my head. But I've had enough experiences in my life to convince me that not only does our consciousness survive the death of our bodies, we have multiple lives here. I've met at least one person I knew before, in a previous existence. I recognized her the second I met her for the first time.

So Hitch is fine, I'm sure. Still, if you'd like, why not say a prayer for his soul? I pray every night for those who died that day. I say, "Dear God, please take care of everyone who died today. Please ease their pain; please ease their fear; please ease their anger; please ease their shock; please ease their guilt; please ease their bitterness; please ease their confusion. Please bring them peace. Please guide them to the next stage, and please let them know that someone here on earth cares about them. Amen."

Every little bit helps.

317 Dude, Christians are supposed to celebrate the death of a non-believer. It's like in the Bible.

318 My Grandmother died of lung cancer, smoking right up to the end. My mother died of breast cancer. My wife has had thyroid cancer.  Moki has cancer and I have cancer. This seems to be going around.

RIP Mr. Hitchens, the world always misses a good writer.

319 I hope you get better, Vic. I'm not really aware of your condition but I knew you were sick. I wish you the best.

320 "

It's not being a perpetually whiny, long-winded butt-hurt cretin, for one thing.

That lets you out.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at December 16, 2011 03:46 AM (MWcDw)"

You consistently project that crap onto my comments for no apparent reason.

Nothing I said was cretinous or whiny.

I just think you're being a bit too judgmental and even arguably hateful, considering you were critical of that very behavior in the same comment.  My point is that those who differ from you on religion are not necessarily evil.  Perhaps they are just mistaken, but otherwise kind and good people.

Anyway, my mistake trying to have a civil and intelligent comment with you.  The frothing nutty furious reply is basically all you're good for these days.

You obviously let internet debates affect you way too much.  Maybe you just miss Texas.

321 "Sadly, that Vanity Fair column makes it clear that Hitch's final months were extremely painful and his life had been reduced"

That is sad, Clubber Lang, but it helps to know he rests in peace now.  Cancer is truly awful, and now he no longer faces the worst of it.

And he did life a great life by his own measure.  I recall him lamenting he didn't suffer and die for some grand cause, but we don't get to pick how we die, and he lived very bravely and relevantly.

I think whoever above said he was a damaged soul with a superb mind got it right.  Perhaps it's unfair to evaluate his soul, as I'm not his judge, though I do disagree with him on religious matters and pray for his soul.

322 Eat and smoke what you want. Die like a man.

323 It's not often I can openly say I love a public figure.  Ronald Reagan was the last one.  I loved Christopher Hitchens.  He was inspirational, exasperating, annoying, always riveting, and he made me think. 

He cared a lot more than he let on about what for lack of a better term might be called "good" or "goodness."  He truly cared about the state of humanity; there was no posturing for political advantage involved.  No pretense.  He fought for it fearlessly, like a genius wild man.  There is so much to respect in that, so much to look up to.  It was noble.  He fought for what he believed in eloquently and in an informed, persuasive, and in a fair fashion. 

The guy was a hero.  Reagan was too.  They were the same-but-different.  Obvious differences and obvious similarities.  It was the similarities that put them in the same class for me.

It's hard to think of someone alive now that fits that description.

324 RIP

325

fuck him

I always hated him, always will

Hate to see someone die from cancer but Im not wiping any tears today

326

Damn.  I can't believe he is gone.  I read his last article a few weeks ago; His words still had the same power.  I really thought he would beat cancer and die of old age.  I never thought that belief in God was a pre-requisite for going to heaven.  I still don't.  I just thought that if you tried to be a good person, especially when you were tested, you have a place in Heaven. 

 

If Hitch ain't in Heaven, then there is no Hell.

327 RIP, you genius bastard you.

328 I'm hardly a Christian and I still gloat. The man was a fucking asshole and it's a good thing he's dead. I know he was ace's friend and I'm sorry for ace, but that doesn't change the objective fact the world is still better off without the human excrement who went by the name of Christopher Hitchens.

329

Aw shit.

Love him or hate him, I don't think there was an ounce of deciet in him. He told you what he thought and damn anyones feelings. And he did it with elegance and style. The only pundit for the left worth reading.

Until that time, Hitch.

330 RIP He was the rarest of things: a liberal that didn't actually hate His Own. He respects much respect for that.

331

Resquiescat in pace.

 

He was the product of his functioning brain and body.

When they ceased to function, he ceased to exist.

He was not sent anywhere.

 

YouÂ’ve unwittingly made a fairly compelling case for the existence of a psyche, viz, a soul.  YouÂ’ve resolved that Hitchens is not the sum of his material, physical body – for as I write this his brain and body most certainly do exist in much the same state as they did when Hitchens was alive.  So what is it – precisely - that you would say “no longer exists” or which others would say exists in another state?  What is it that HitchensÂ’ body was possessed of yesterday morning that is (or as you would say was) “Hitchens” in se?   

 

332 If you are "glad" that Hitchens is in hell, then you go against everything Christianity stands for.

333 I'm hardly a Christian and I still gloat.

The man was a fucking asshole and it's a good thing he's dead. I know he was ace's friend and I'm sorry for ace, but that doesn't change the objective fact the world is still better off without the human excrement who went by the name of Christopher Hitchens.

Posted by: Juicer at December 16, 2011 07:36 AM

You're not good enough to be tasked with scooping dogshit off his grave.

334

If you are "glad" that Hitchens is in hell, then you go against everything Christianity stands for.

Posted by: packsoldier at December 16, 2011 08:16 AM

I'm hardly a Christian and that was a decent and humane comment. We disagree on some points, if I remember correctly, but that is nonetheless the sort of class in such a situation that I would expect from you.

335 You're not good enough to be tasked with scooping dogshit off his grave. Posted by: Random at December 16, 2011 08:18 AM (YiE0S) Why would dogshit be on his grave for the first place? Oh, right. Sorry I asked.

336 Some of these comments are sickening.

337 George Orwell once wrote that, contrary to popular opinion, the evil a man does dies with him, while his good lives on. I think there's a lot of truth in that, and it will be true of Christopher Hitchens.

Hitchens' work never rose to Orwell's level: his essays don't come close to Orwell's best, and none of his books come anywhere near "1984" or "Animal Farm" (or "Burmese Days", for that matter). Most of his political and economic tracts smack of inside baseball: scoring points on his critics for not having read this or that economist, rather than a serious discussion of issues. And his anti-religious tracts were the work of a ranting village atheist rather than a serious critic. These, I think, will soon be forgotten.

Instead, I think, the good that Hitchens leaves behind is the example of a man speaking the truth, as it had been given to him know the truth, openly and fearlessly. He was always his own man. In our era of fools, ignoramuses, and lickspittle sycophants, that means a lot.

I'll miss him. Requiescat in pacem, Christopher. And thank you.

338 Mr. Hitchens is no longer an atheist.

339 Rowan Atkinson and Rowan Williams are BOTH correct answers! From Wikipedia: "After Richard and Harry catch him trying to escape, Edmund becomes Archbishop (taking on Baldrick as a monk and Percy as Bishop of Ramsgate)."

340 Posted by: Alec Leamas at December 16, 2011 08:04 AM (4DS5T) The key word is "functioning". The mind is an emergent property of the functioning brain. Turn off the brain and the mind vanishes. Your talk of a soul is illogical.

341 He was a simple contrarian.  I feel no great loss.

342 It's time for an obvious truth, that some won't want to hear:

Like other loudmouth atheists, Hitchens held that two contradictory claims were true:
Evolutionism is correct.
Religion is an impediment to human progress.

F in logic, Hitch.

343 Wait a minute.  You guys are actually getting mad that a few people aren't saying nice things about a guy who roasted dead people before the body was cold?  The guy shat on Mother Teresa, for goodness' sake.  She lived in poverty and took care of the least fortunate people on earth.  By choice.  Hitchens wrote angry letters.

Also:  there is not a single thing wrong with saying that if Hitchens did not acknowledge Christ as the son of God who was crucified to pay for the sins of humanity, then his soul has been damned for eternity.  I truly hope that he repented and acknowledged Christ before he died, but my guess based on his life is that he did not.  Christ clearly mourns for every soul who rejects him, given that Christ gave his life in the most painful and humiliating possible way -- to the point of being separated from God entirely -- to save people like Hitchens.  But if Hitchens was an atheist to the end, there is no longer any hope for his soul.

The Bible is very clear about the fate of those who reject Christ.  And there is nothing hateful or mean-spirited about point out the truths of the Bible.  If you believe that "being a good person" is sufficient to receive Christ's salvation, that's all well and good, but it's a belief that is rejected by the Bible.  Nobody on earth is good; we are all sinful and therefore in need of Christ's grace and forgiveness.  If you think that everybody goes to Heaven (i.e., given eternal life with God), regardless of their religious beliefs, that is all well and good, yet it is also a belief that is clearly rejected by the Bible.

Which gets us to the main point:  either you believe in the the clear teachings and life of Christ, as prophesied in the Old Testament and detailed in the New Testament, or you don't.

If you don't, the upside is that you'll have all of eternity to spend with your friend Hitch.

344 If you don't, the upside is that you'll have all of eternity to spend with your friend Hitch. Posted by: Chesty LaRue at December 16, 2011 10:02 AM (KTtrN) Only the dead know the truth about religion.

345 From a number of these comments I see there's no conflict in being a professed Christian and being a complete, classless asshole.

346 It would be interesting to be behind him in line at the Pearly Gates.  My bet is he would almost be able to convince St. Peter to let him in.

347 Didn't like him at times.  Violently disagreed with him at times.  Still saddened by his death.

Only a few people (in my book, and only my book) deserve cancer.  I would not count him among them.

May his passage to wherever be peaceful.  My sympathies to those in pain and regret today.

348 To "not from around here" relax man you are reacting like a Muslim after he saw the cartoons of Muhammad in a Danish newspaper.

349 The Bible is very clear about the fate of those who reject Christ.  And there is nothing hateful or mean-spirited about point out the truths of the Bible.  If you believe that "being a good person" is sufficient to receive Christ's salvation, that's all well and good, but it's a belief that is rejected by the Bible.  Nobody on earth is good; we are all sinful and therefore in need of Christ's grace and forgiveness.  If you think that everybody goes to Heaven (i.e., given eternal life with God), regardless of their religious beliefs, that is all well and good, yet it is also a belief that is clearly rejected by the Bible.

Which gets us to the main point:  either you believe in the the clear teachings and life of Christ, as prophesied in the Old Testament and detailed in the New Testament, or you don't.


Not only do you tout notions from a fantasy novel, but you tout the least beautiful parts.

350 He was outside, smoking. Puffing away. Something about his defiant character in that, I guess. Or foolishness. Or both.>>>>>> This reminds me of a story I heard about the late Jackie Gleason. Gleason was a big drinker and smoked 5 (yes, 5) packs of cigarettes a day. A doctor told him that he had cancer, and the doc asked if there was anything he could do for Mr. Gleason. Jackie said 'yeah, get me a scotch'. Something like that. The great ones live life on their terms, for better or for worse. RIP, Hitch. You'll be sorely missed...

351

The key word is "functioning".
The mind is an emergent property of the functioning brain.
Turn off the brain and the mind vanishes.
Your talk of a soul is illogical.

YouÂ’re just kicking the can down the road.  There is something immaterial that was Hitchens and which is no longer animating his material form.  You may call it “mind,” the Greeks (inventors of logic, by the way) would have called it psyche, and Christians may call it a “soul.”  Keep in mind, I have not postulated a mind/psyche/soul as an eternal entity, nor speculated about where or in what state it may exist after the death of the body for that is irrelevant to my point that you accept the fact that an essential component of that which was or remains Hitchens was immaterial.  This is a highly logical conclusion.  It is very likely that as I type this all the matter that was Hitchens during his life is still intact somewhere, and yet we all agree that Hitchens is “gone” in some meaningful sense.  Stressing “functioning” is merely your way of slipping the rabbit into the hat and skirting the ultimate issue – “functioning” is the analogue of the GreeksÂ’ “animated” or the ChristiansÂ’ “ensouled,” if you will.  

352 From  a number of these comments, I think it fair to conclude that "moron", "coward", and "atheist" are synonyms.

353

Posted by: Luke at December 16, 2011 11:13 AM (Insvo)

 

You know, I have mixed feelings about the death of Hitchens.  I own and have read a few of his books.  I have found some of his writing illuminating, some brave and audacious, and some nothing more than a bit of sophistry and preening by a man a little too much in awe of his own intellect.  But I think the thing which was most unfortunate about the man was his habit of being unnecessarily provocative and insulting towards those who believe in and/or practice a religion – with a particular emphasis upon Catholicism.  To be sure, Hitchens was more brave than most others of that ilk in that he did not shy away from tweaking practitioners of Islam.  But in life he was not so much a principled atheist as an anti-religion evangelist with a penchant for giving particular, targeted offense.

I do believe that it was this dimension of Hitchens which has attracted the derogatory comments in this thread.  True to form, the resident atheists and anti-religionists have responded in kind with their canned pejoratives and overestimated self-regard.  I donÂ’t think either is particularly appropriate so soon after the manÂ’s death.   

354 Ah, I see, because it is self-regard that causes one not to be a Christian.   And it is only Muslims who wish ill upon those who reject their beliefs.

355 Really, I would be insulted if I thought any of it were true -- all this damning people to Hell.  But it's nothing more than the resident witchdoctor sticking pins in a doll, or some crazy witch putting a hex on those who've crossed her.

356

Ah, I see, because it is self-regard that causes one not to be a Christian.   And it is only Muslims who wish ill upon those who reject their beliefs.

No, it is overestimated self-regard and the pomposity that would cause one to need to stick a red hot poker in the eye of others (“fantasy novel”) that causes one to be an asshole.  And as we all know, assholes can be found in most belief systems. 

And I do find it quite amusing that someone who clearly doesnÂ’t believe in an afterlife is indignant about the fact that someone else believes that he wonÂ’t be invited to the “good” part of the afterlife.  Bemused indifference, and reserving your strongest objection for those who actively seek to kill you in life for rejecting their religion might be a more appropriate response consistent with your professed atheist beliefs.   

357 I said I was not indignant, because none of it is true.  So, yes, I would say it's bemused indifference.  Except the smugness does bother me a bit.  It's such bad advertising for western values.

358

Ironically his name, Christopher, meant "one who carries Christ in his heart." I love that. Everywhere he went he carried that name and thus proclaiming the exact opposite of what came out of his mouth. Odd he never changed it.

359 "Fantasy novel" is entirely accurate, wherever it sticks and however hot.

360 I said I was not indignant, because none of it is true.  So, yes, I would say it's bemused indifference.  Except the smugness does bother me a bit.  It's such bad advertising for western values.

You said you weren't indignant after you acted indignantly, and decidedly not with bemused indifference.  You needed to hurl an insult in response to someone stating that he didn't believe that Hitchens would be in heaven, and that he may well be in Hell.  Neither of which you (purportedly) or Hitchens believed existed.  Thou dost protest. 

361 >>>You guys are actually getting mad that a few people aren't saying nice things about a guy who roasted dead people before the body was cold? The guy shat on Mother Teresa, for goodness' sake. She lived in poverty and took care of the least fortunate people on earth. By choice. Hitchens wrote angry letters. No I posted like five times I think Hitchens invited such by his own nasty columns about the dead. Plus as a public figure, people can say what they like about him at his death. He's not really a "friend" so I am specifically not playing the how-dare-you-speak-ill-of-my-friend card. I am just taken aback by the Church Lady like "Now you're in hell, so eat it!" stuff.

362 It was the smugness behind these "Christian sentiments" (that the man deserves punishment, that it's good riddance to bad rubbish) that bothered me.  I am certainly not indignant about not being invited to heaven.  In fact, the notion is empty.

363 It was the smugness behind these "Christian sentiments" (that the man deserves punishment, that it's good riddance to bad rubbish) that bothered me.  I am certainly not indignant about not being invited to heaven.  In fact, the notion is empty.

But, according to your worldview, not only don't Heaven and Hell exist - the man no longer exists either - one person's quite wrong belief as to the relationship between two null sets, if you will.  So what, exactly, bothered you?

"Fantasy novel" is entirely accurate, wherever it sticks and however hot.

The very fact that you must give offense in reply is indicative of the fact that you're not merely an atheist - your non-belief is not a calmly decided rational idea as you like to posit.  You didn't simply say to yourself "I have found no compelling evidence for the existence of a God and therefore I will order my life accordingly."  It's now your identity - you must now not only not believe, you must ridicule others for their belief and make converts to non-belief.  Why?

364 I said I was not indignant, because none of it is true.  So, yes, I would say it's bemused indifference.  Except the smugness does bother me a bit.  It's such bad advertising for western values.

365 I said I was not indignant, because none of it is true.  So, yes, I would say it's bemused indifference.  Except the smugness does bother me a bit.  It's such bad advertising for western values.

Yes, we must continue to keep Western values and Christianity completely separate.

366

I quit smoking for the last time ten years ago.  I lasted nine days.  I decided that I'd rather die in my 50's or 60's then live a miserable life.  You have to die of something, and I'd rather enjoy life and die young than live longer and be miserable.  Hitch made it to 62 and that ain't too shabby.  I'd be happy with that and I'm glad Hitchens was able to write right up until the end.  It fits.

And let's face it, if ever you need a cigarette it's after you get fucking cancer.

367 Notice how "Luke" doesn't have the guts to note the moronic claims of Hitch.

Let's look a a little closer, courtesy of Dennis Prager:
You are trying to find where you parked your car in the downtown area of a strange city.  You walk into an alley and see a group of young men approaching.  Would you feel better or worse knowing that they had just left a Bible study class?

368 You've got me all wrong.  I am quite tolerant of believers.  Normally, I find (unprovoked) attacks on the intelligence or morality of believers tiresome (you can ask my wife), so this aspect of Hitchens was not what I found most admirable or interesting about him.  On the other hand, I find attacks by believers on the intelligence and morality of non-believers to be tiresome as well, and galling, too, since they are typically informed by neither intelligence nor basic human kindness.  How un Christ-like. 

Despite your on-the-fly attempt to look into my soul, I really don't self-identify as an atheist.  I've probably spent more time chiding atheists than provoking Christians.  Still, I don't think many of the comments here about Hitchens by professed Christians put you believers in a good light.

369

RIP

I can't think of anyone I read often whom I either so vehemently disagree with, or completely agree with, depending on the issue.  No middle ground with Hitch.

And he lived more in those 62 (62!?!?) than most.

370 Well now he will final have his answers. Is he nothing but worm food or in the light of the almighty, even if he did not believe in him.

One of Heinlein's books was "JOB" (I think) where whatever you believed in your heart, that's what you got at the end.  If you were a christian looking for the Rapture that's what happened.  The protagonist's girlfriend was Scandi and believed in Valhalla, so when he got to heaven he couldn't find her.  I think he found heaven to be a cast-system.  So, if your an atheist and you believed in no after life, that's what you get.  I liked the premiss.

371 "And if some want to do the You're In Hell Now, Sinner! victory dance, they are entitled."

Ha! Suck it, Hitchens!

372 Yes, we must continue to keep Western values and Christianity completely separate.

Oh, no, I did not mean to say that.  I think quite the opposite.

373 Fuck cancer. Seriously. Fuck it to hell.

374 Both atheist and theist have proven in this thread that assholery, like cancer, is an equal-opportunity affliction.

RIP, Chris.

375 80 Man ace and this blog are full of grade A assholes.

Posted by: Full Nelson


What's your point?

376 Chris died?  That explains not getting a Christmas card from him this year.

377 Was Hitchens drinking previous to defacing the Nazi sign? Risking your own life is fine, subjecting others to that same risk without their consent seems both foolhardy and selfish.

378 Can't you let him rest in peace?

379 Hitchens seemed to be a man that was intellectually honest. Not afraid to call it the way he saw it, and be willing to defend his point of view. I am a Christian - and though never having met the man, think I would have thoroughly enjoyed his company.
I  have relatives who have died as unbelievers, and have prayed that God had mercy on their souls. I pray the same for Mr. Hitchens. I want the same for myself, by the way, when I pass on. Any other view seems cruel and heartless. Just my take.

380 381 Can't you let him rest in peace?

Posted by: unintended irony at December 16, 2011 01:40 PM (sHY5w)

Beautiful. 

381 Yah, can't you let him rest in peace?

382

the need for a ciggie is a powerful thing: I had a boss once who died of lung cancer after a 3-pack a day habit.

A couple of days before he died, he was in the hospital surrounded by pure oxygen and kept asking for a smoke. His rationale was that he knew he would die sooner instead of later, and after 3 packs a day for 50 years can 1 final ciggie really be that harmful?

He didnt get his smokes and died a few days later.

383 "I am just taken aback by the Church Lady like "Now you're in hell, so eat it!" stuff."

So the guy got to make a career of attacking Christ and Christians, but those of us who point out what is reserved for those who reject Christ are the bad guys?

You know what makes me sad?  That we're celebrating the sad life of an angry old man who thought it was great sport to mock the millenia-old faith of hundreds of millions of people.

You know what else makes me sad?  That you tolerate and encourage those who label the Bible a "'fantasy novel" but attack those of us who actually take its teachings seriously.

There is noting hateful about pointing out the logical end of a life that existed to mock the salvation provided by Christ's death.

384 "It was the smugness behind these "Christian sentiments" (that the man deserves punishment, that it's good riddance to bad rubbish) that bothered me.  I am certainly not indignant about not being invited to heaven.  In fact, the notion is empty."

We all deserve punishment and have no right to Christ's grace or forgiveness -- as the Bible says: "The wage of sin is death."  It is only through repentance and acceptance of Christ that anyone can be saved.

That is what you atheists refuse to acknowledge for whatever reason.  No mortal man has ever been saved by works.

I am not at all arguing that I am better than Hitchens or that he "deserved" eternal damnation.  He was given a lifetime to finally acknowledge Christ and he made a career out of rejecting it.  It is very sad, but what is done is done.

385 The last time I saw Hitch, I was blowing him outside Union Station.  When he was done, he dug out a $5 bill and said, and this is classic Hitch, he said "don't spend this all on drugs".  He was brilliant that way.  I said "no, I'm a blogger".   In classic Hitch style, he pulls out another $5 bill and says "your gonna need this then".

386 Well, Chesty, the Bible is a fantasy novel.  That's tough, but you need to get used to the idea. There's not going to be any big payoff for you, or punishment for those who don't agree with you.  There are those who take the works of L. Ron Hubbard seriously, too.  Same fate.

It may irk you, but from the look of things, Hitchens had quite a happy life. 

387 Well, Chesty, the Bible is a fantasy novel.  That's tough, but you need to get used to the idea. There's not going to be any big payoff for you, or punishment for those who don't agree with you.  There are those who take the works of L. Ron Hubbard seriously, too.  Same fate.

Most fantasy novels do not concern themselves with historical figures and events for which there is sufficient evidence and are therefore historical fact.  The Bible is full of figures of events which have lived and have happened.  Was there no King David?  This gives lie to your statement - you don't mean that it is a "fantasy novel" in the proper sense - like, for example, The Lord of the Rings.  You mean to make a comparison between historical figures and events and hobbits and elves and dragons and so forth in order to belittle.  Isn't it sufficient to state that you do not accept the supernatural claims made in the Bible and leave it at that?  Why the extraordinary effort to ridicule?

388 Why the extraordinary effort to ridicule?

Because I stumbled onto a nest of those smug, nasty Christians my atheist acquaintances are always complaining about.

There are all sorts of novels and fantasy stories that incorporate historical figures.  So I think this gives the lie to your assertion.

389 It may irk you, but from the look of things, Hitchens had quite a happy life.

Perhaps he did, but one cannot tell simply "from the look of things."  Happiness is not synonymous with "fun," "satiated," or "inebriated."  I would suggest that it is more difficult to derive true happiness from life if one is stuck pondering the meaningless abyss on a somewhat consistent basis.

390 Because I stumbled onto a nest of those smug, nasty Christians my atheist acquaintances are always complaining about.

You stumbled upon a nest of smug, nasty Christians discussing the life and death of an often smug, nasty contrarian, who delivered many of his most damning comments about beloved public figures in the hours following their deaths.  This is the complaint of your supposed "atheist acquaintances?"  For someone who ridicules their beliefs you sure have no problem pointing out precisely when they fall short of living up to them. 

There are all sorts of novels and fantasy stories that incorporate historical figures.  So I think this gives the lie to your assertion.

When they incorporate historical figures and events they are commonly classified as "historical fiction," not "fantasy."  You use "fantasy" for a particularly derogatory purpose, in order to liken widely held beliefs to stories of dragons and unicorns and other such things in which a comparatively negligible number of people have sincere belief. 

391 Because I stumbled onto a nest of those smug, nasty Christians my atheist acquaintances are always complaining about.

Posted by: Luke at December 16, 2011 02:55 PM (Insvo)

Projection is practiced by the oblivious.

392 It's hilarious that the religious people that were so upset about Hitchens attitude towards their beliefs are now attacking him in the exact same way.  Way to belittle Christ.

393 As I said, all the nasty Christians have crawled out of their holes to proclaim that a man's early and painful death "means something," when the same fate has been shared by countless believers and innocents.

The man had a wife and children, numerous friends, was a terrific writer who was intellectually engaged (right up to the end), and pretty much seemed to live his life on his own terms.  He did not appear to be obsessed with the abyss (unlike you Christers), but rather everything that came before it.  Not a bad life.

When they incorporate historical figures and events they are commonly classified as "historical fiction," not "fantasy."  You use "fantasy" for a particularly derogatory purpose, in order to liken widely held beliefs to stories of dragons and unicorns and other such things in which a comparatively negligible number of people have sincere belief. 

If the shoe fits, let St. George wear it.

The fact that a belief is widely held says nothing of its merit, especially one where the evidence is so very thin.

394 Projection is practiced by the oblivious.

Yes, it is.

395 Posted by: eman at December 16, 2011 12:19 AM (kEKwc)
mass and energy cannot be destroyed. i wonder where consciousness falls within those categories. some combination of electrical biochemistry, right? thus "supernatural". synaptic firing leaves echoes. data is stored. it is possible that Mr. Hitchens exists in some state or another, perhaps a quark of sorts imprinted with data. the bridge between mass and energy is gone, the vessel that housed that core being that was Christopher Hitchens is gone. no complex organism named Christopher Hitchens that can drink whiskey and play with legos, but since nothing can be destroyed, there must be some tiny particle of mass or some form of energy that was Christopher Hitchens has to be out there somewhere.

396 Hell = hades = the grave. Mr. Hitches is in the grave with all the other dead people throughout history. He will have another chance for salvation as will the rest. No human is going to Heaven. The Kingdom of God is coming here. But only after some horrific times, just ahead.

397 I fart in the general direction of such infantile comments. The comments of those of you who proclaim belief in Christianity, yet spew hatred towards Mr. Hitchens and members of the Moron Heard with whom you disagree.

You know who you are.

We are all guests of Mr. Ace here. Show your appreciation for his hospitality.

398 I fart in the general direction of such infantile comments. The comments of those of you who proclaim belief in Christianity, yet spew hatred towards Mr. Hitchens, Mr. Ace, and members of the Moron Heard with whom you disagree.

You know who you are.

We are all guests of Mr. Ace here. Show your appreciation for his hospitality.

399 Sorry for the double post.

400 Sorry for the double post.

Infidel.

401 Sycophant.

402

Late to this thread but have to say: I remember a couple years back, when he was first diagnosed, Hitch wrote a column specifically asking people not to pray for him. Thinking that that was cool, I said a quick one anyway figuring he'd never know.

On his passing I do pray that the Good Lord smiles kindly on him...after He pulls a nasty practical joke on Hitch's ass, threatening him with Fire and Brimstone, all the while laughing maniacally...MWAHAHAHAH....and then saying "Just kidding Hitch. All is forgiven".

That's what I'd like.

403
Wow i really found this to be an interesting read; thanks for sharing

404 I'm much sadder than I thought I'd be. I didn't know him, but read him for years. Wonder what Martin Amis will say, and when. Also notice that for a twice-married man with 3(?) children there's not a sense of his family in the obituaries -- perhaps he was was just very, and advisably, private.

405

I am not clear if I totally understand the full thought pattern behind this.

406 Wow this is soo helpful I have been trying to figure this out on my own for a long time now. Hopefully making this change will help encourage discussion on my blog.

407 As the article says ....I really enjoy your blog. Intelligent and to the point.