1 Why the fuck is everything on this site in BOLD?!?!?!?!?!

2 And now the shit is in italics!!!!!

3 OT, but why on earth did Heidi Klum, Natalie Portman and Scarlett Johanssen hold a joint televised press conference today to announce that Ace of Spades was their favorite blog? http://tinyurl.com/2g9mqh I didn't even know that they were conservative. And why did Heidi say they'd all do a foursome with the blogger-in-chief even though they have no idea what he looks like? Now, I understand why Heidi whipped off her bra at the end, but what was Scarlett doing? Dry-humping the camera????

4 ACE - Boldly Verbose

5 Hiding behind your italic heritage will not mask your boldness!

6 Dat's cool....was just getting worried that it was just me that saw that shit.

7 A probabilistic thing more than a mathematical, binary necessity.

Probability is mathematical. I think the better word might be "logical".

But why do I even do this? It's like pointing out a single bug in a cornfield.

8

Alternate title:

Can't Sleep? I've Got You Covered 

9 What's wrong with you? Why do you have to rain on A. Sully's parade?  Let the man just walk through her 'Secret Garden' already.

10 Shorter Ace: You can't reason someone out of a position he didn't reason himself into to begin with.

11 Why do all the lefties (looking at you, Trump) ask repubs about Barry's birth certificate?  To make us look like chumps.

Why do lefties think Bristol Palin gave birth to two babies in under 9 months?  Because they are idiots.

12 Shorter Ace: You can't reason someone out of a position he didn't reason himself into to begin with.

Oh ... if I had just kept reading to the end ...

13 Short version of ace: when people have a desired outcome they rig the experiment to reach that outcome. Go read Popper.

14 Shorter Ace: You can't reason someone out of a position he didn't reason himself into to begin with.

Posted by: Andy at April 22, 2011 12:47 PM (5Rurq)

Oh good....there are other people who sometimes don't read the whole post besides me.

15

Hope. is the tickling, with. a feather
That teases, near my. hole
And. hums the tune- rhyming, the words
And. never sucks, my. a balls

a guy, in drag. Crystal Gayle, is. heard
And. sore must be, my. rash
That. could a, soothe. my little. bird 
his. hands they, near. my, ass 

I've. heard it, chillen. on the. stoop
before, I. had to pee;
Yet. I have not ,thought. I. might be, gay 
Because. a man, was rubbing, me.

16 Oh good....there are other people who sometimes don't read the whole post besides me.

Hey, I skimmed the whole thing on the way to beclowning myself.

17 COLB?  Where's the proof the pitchfork-wielding scarecrow has a heartbeat??

18 13 Short version of ace: when people have a desired outcome they rig the experiment to reach that outcome. Go read Popper.

Wut?  We climate change scientists are above reproach - we'd never rig experimental data to fit our preconceived notions...

19 Ace, you are right about the "fake COLB" birther stuff, but what really makes a conspiracy theory is the lack of ability to falsify it.

For instance, there is no way at all, no evidence at all that Sarah Palin can present to falsify the Trig Truthers.  Nothing whatsoever.

Sometimes conspiracy theorists stumble and actually put forward a falsifiable hypothesis: "fire can't melt steel".  They move onto another one.

But the most widespread birtherism can be falsified, it demands the long-form birth certificate that Obama is hiding behind a wall of privacy.  Some would argue that even if he did it, that wouldn't end the discussion.  For some it wouldn't, but for most, it would. The counter question is: Why is he hiding it anyway?

Obama is an active participant in the conspiracy, actually.  He's taking unusual action to continue it. Palin is only...existing, I guess. That's her main crime.

20

Oh good....there are other people who sometimes don't read the whole post besides me.

Posted by: Tami at April 22, 2011 12:51 PM (VuLos)

Properly reading ace is like how one reads some books.  You've all read a book by someone who just has to dump a bunch of data in the middle that has nothing really to do with plot or characterization?  That's called a data dump and it's very prevalent in SF and historical fiction.  The key is identify the data dump, skim past it, and be able to identify where the meat begins again. 

It's a learned skill.

21 I disagree that these debunkings are futile and won't change any minds.  They WILL change the minds of those people who have not seen the facts and believe that the boards are indeed holding up the anvil.  These supporting premises need to be shown to be false because people who have not been paying attention believe them to be true.  They HAVE been reasoned into the position and CAN be reasoned out of it.  True, you won't (can't) reach the true believers, but you can stop it from spreading and infecting otherwise sane people.

22 >>>Ace, you are right about the "fake COLB" birther stuff, but what really makes a conspiracy theory is the lack of ability to falsify it. Well, that is true, but I discuss that at very great length (as commenters point out). The whole back half of the post is about the non-falsifiability of it, as the conclusion always stands firm, and new premises are just spun out of the conclusion, as needed.

23
Why do we entertain the ravings of fringe lunatics?

24 >>>But the most widespread birtherism can be falsified, it demands the long-form birth certificate that Obama is hiding behind a wall of privacy. Some would argue that even if he did it, that wouldn't end the discussion. For some it wouldn't, but for most, it would. The counter question is: Why is he hiding it anyway? I do not believe for a second the release of the long-form would change the minds of many (if ANY) actual birthers. It would answer the non-birther people who say "Well why not just release it?" but it would not satisfy those who are committed to it. Bear in mind, the whole claim is that the COLB -- apparently as real as steel -- is forged from the long-form. if you've already proposed one forgery why would you then say that there's no way the long form could also be forged?

25

Logic never enters the equation for conspiracy theorists. Facts neither.

What's amazing is that logical argument is ignored in favor of the outrageous, the ill-informed, and the just plain kooky ideas of the left. I don't remember this being the case when I was but a wee lad.

As I've aged, I've observed that the world is growing more and more insane, and that, as time has passed, it's happening ever faster. Witness how quickly the 9-11 Truthers started gaining traction, even in the face of indisputable evidence to the contrary and the laws of physics. "Fire doesn't melt steel?" Really Rosie? Then kindly explain how your limo sprang, fully formed, into existence, fire-free.

Another example is the stunning turnaround by the usual suspects in Congress re their support for the Iraq war. First they were all for it and were quoted many times supporting the action. Later, they did a complete 180 and started accusing Bush of every type of despicable reason to get us into a war with a country that was openly aiding and abetting terrorism, as if we'd never been attacked at all.

Is the entire world somehow experiencing a mental meltdown, wherein logic and facts are displaced with emotion and feeling?

I fear so.

26 Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 12:59 PM (nj1bB)

Yup, you keep the conclusion the same and re-rig the experiment to get that answer.

27 23, because if we didn't Vic would be here all alone.

28 Why stop at one official, government-perpetrated forgery? If you've already postulated one, what's the problem with two?

29 Bristol's kid, born 36 weeks after Trig was born, was a full term infant and not premature. So, to believe that that Bristol was Trig's mother, you would have to believe that she was pregnant with both infants at the same time and gave birth to one 36 weeks later. Ridiculous.

30 Heh:

Big Bird Calls Out Queen MichelleÂ…

31

The conclusion began generating fresh premises, none of them true. The COLB suddenly was conceded as real, but created from a forged (unseen) long-form birth certificate.

There's no evidence for that. But it asserted as true, because it must be true -- if the conclusion is true (which we know it must be) there must be evidence to support it.

What we do know as fact is that babies born in the Kapio'lani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in 1961 got official Certificates of Live Birth, typed up by the hospital staff and signed by a parent, the attending physician and a hospital administrator.  We know that as a fact because people have copies of their official Certificates of Live Birth, photostatically copied from the originals filed with the State Department of Health.

What the Obama campaign released was an official copy of what's left on file of his Certificate of Live Birth -- just a few of the data fields transcribed from the original document, without any signatures.  The State of Hawaii certifies that official copy as serving the legal purposes of a Certificate of Live Birth.

My question is, why doesn't the State have a file copy of his original document?  Obama says he was born in Kapio'lani, but previously he said he was born at Queen's Hospital -- so even he isn't certain which hospital he was born in.  The original document signed by Stanley Ann Dunham, the attending physician and the hospital administrator would of course clear up that simple question, but all's we got is a printout of a few data fields from the State of Hawaii computerized records.

By analogy, we know that Obama went to Columbia University.  But we don't know what classes he took or grades he got.  It's not "Ivyism" to want to see his actual college transcripts.

32 And what a conspiracy that is! First teh government does the 9-11 for Bush and then they sit on Barak's real birth certificate.  And people say there is Illuminati!

33 The whole back half of the post is about the non-falsifiability of it, as the conclusion always stands firm, and new premises are just spun out of the conclusion, as needed.

Well, I took what you said more as emphasizing the "six degrees of reason" that conspiracy theories also employ.  You have to accept a half-dozen tenuous premises and then the conspiracy theory makes sense.  That's one aspect, but I think the main one is not even the lack of responsiveness to evidence but the lack of ability to even provide evidence.

Kennedy theorists are notorious for being impervious to evidence, but the theories that stand are the ones for which no evidence can be offered.

34 Bristol's kid, born 36 weeks after Trig was born, was a full term infant and not premature. So, to believe that that Bristol was Trig's mother, you would have to believe that she was pregnant with both infants at the same time and gave birth to one 36 weeks later. Ridiculous. Posted by: Bloody Mary at April 22, 2011 01:02 PM

Being a lefty means never letting the facts get in the way of the narrative.

35 If I gave a crap about all this conspiracy stuff, I might have read Ace's entire piece.

36 Posted by: Bloody Mary at April 22, 2011 01:02 PM

Liberals don't do math. It's racist or something.

37 I believe that Obama was probably born in Hawaii, but that there's something substantially incriminating on the long form. My conclusion is based solely on the conduct of Hawaii officials after the short form was released. But first, let's get a few facts straight. (1) Referring to a "COLB" is unhelpful. The 2008 CertifiCATION of Live Birth is a "COLB"; the 1961 CertifiCATE of Live Birth (if it exists) is a COLB. Failing to properly distinguish between the two documents whose differences are at the heart of the dispute just clouds the debate. (2) The 2008 certification is a computer-generated document signed by CURRENT Hawaii officials. It is essentially an affidavit declaring that they have seen some OTHER, unidentified record. To this date, we don't really know what that document is. The 1961 certificate (if it exists) is a contemporaneous, typewritten document signed by actual witnesses to the birth and identifying the hospital of birth. IF the 2008 certification has any value, it MUST be value derived from the 1961 certificate. (3) Former Hawaii DOH director Chiyome Fukino has given three inconsistent statement about WHAT 1961 record she allegedly saw in preparing the 2008 certification. in 2008, she issued a lawyered statement saying that she had confirmed Obama's "birth certificate" was "on record" in accordance with certain procedures, but didn't say she actually saw it. in 2009 (after the CNN news director claimed the certificate had been destroyed), Fukino said she saw some unidentified "vital records." A few weeks ago, for the first time, she said she saw an original, half-typed, half-handwritten birth certificate. (4) Fukino's most recent statement came very shortly after Hawaii Governor Abercrombie said he had confirmed that Obama's birth was "written down" somewhere in the records, despite his prior bold promise to produced the actual 1961 birth certificate. He also fired the interim DOH director who he sent to find the BC, but it's not clear if the firing was connected to the failure to find the BC. (5) The same day Fukino claimed to have seen the half-typed original BC, Hawaii Attorney General Joshua Wisch lied that Hawaii could not legal make a copy of the BC EVEN AT THE REQUEST of President Obama -- that Obama could at most LOOK at it, but couldn't copy it or divulge its contents. In fact, Hawaii law REQUIRES the release of a full copy to anyone with a "tangible interest" in it (Google Hawaii + 338-13 and READ the statute for yourself. (6) In 2010, former Hawaii Governor Lingle lied by stating that her office had issued a press release revealing that Obama was born at Kapiolani hospital. In fact, the only statements released were those from Fukino in 2008 and 2009, neither of which identified Kapiolani and to this day there is NO contemporaneous evidence that he was born there. At a 2009 press conference (look for it), Press Secretary Gibbs was asked to identify the hospital and said he didn't know, and refused to confirm the authenticity of a 2009 letter from Obama to Kapiolani claiming to have been born there. Originally I though Obama was just playing a game in holding back the 1961 document, but too many officials have told too many lies about it. My suspicions about there being a significant problem with the 1961 (if it exists) are not unreasonable, but fully founded on the public record.

38

Balck Half?

Try not being so transparent with your Racism!, Ace.

39 >>>Is the entire world somehow experiencing a mental meltdown, wherein logic and facts are displaced with emotion and feeling? >>>I fear so. I don't think so. The world has always been like this. We hear of crazy conspiracy theories in the past, and outrageous charges and scurrilous rhetoric in past political contests, and yet we always discount those, because we fall prey to the idea that we have "evolved" since then and are more rational and reasonable. And then, when we are confronted with fresh evidence we are behaving illogically, what we believe is that while we PREVIOUSLY had been logical and reasonable, we have recently fallen from that position BACK INTO the irrational ways of the past. In fact, we've never evolved, psychologically or socially. We're still the same as we were in the 1780s, by and large. Ever go to a vitamin store? And there's all these claims that super-doses of this vitamin or that, or this odd herb (St John's wort) or that, will make you healthier, stronger, more energetic, more sexually proficient? How the hell is that ANY different than a potion shop in the middle ages? it's not. We're the same. We're just as magical-thinking and irrational as we ever were. We are still prey to all the odd fads and fancies as ever. We just change the names. But it's the same psychological strangeness. We change the name of "magic" to "psychic potential" and we laugh at the silliness of medieval magic while talking up "the power of the mind" as some kind of modern concept. We say we're not drinking magical potions -- we're taking fat-burning energy supplements. We update the terminology to hide from ourselves we still believe the same old hokums but we do, in fact, believe the same old hokums. We always have and we probably always will. There is no evolution of the human, at least not for the last 100,000 years. We are mostly what we were in the Iron age. The big difference is diet and lifestyle. We are bigger and stronger and live longer, but our brains are still the same magic-believing things.

40 My take on the whole thing? People are stupid. The end.

41

Sorry to waste your time with all that, but I do think that is why this whole Birth Certificate Conspiracy Theory has not, in fact, harmed conservatives, despite the media attempting to harm conservatives with it at every turn.

It's just that anyone who hears all this is going to ask, as my Hypothetical Independent kept asking, "Okay, I accept this is all crazy... but... why won't he release it?"

There's no answer to that. No one ever says why this is so outrageous a request. No one offers any plausible justification for withholding it.

No one ever asks the President. No one. Ever.

We have a secret, and we don't even have the courtesy of a cover story to explain the secret away.

If you act secretively, it is not crazy to imagine you have secrets.

Ace - March 3, 2011

42 >>Bristol's kid, born 36 weeks after Trig was born, was a full term infant and not premature Did you actually see Bristol give birth? How do you know that's really her baby? Maybe she just bought that baby from a Russian orphanage, Russia is very close to Alaska you know. There are many layers to this conspiracy.

43 Stupid comment system!....that was ALL italicized...not just the one line.

44 I do not believe for a second the release of the long-form would change the minds of many (if ANY) actual birthers It would certainly change mine. But I suspect that that due to the newly-released (or fabricated) claim that it is "half-handwritten", the crazier breed of birthers would be making all sorts of claims about how the handwriting should be interpreted. Which is probably why they're withholding it -- it's not all neat and typed out like the one for the Nordyke twins born the same week.

45

OT:

The one says he is only a quarter of his way through his presidency. I really am savoring a concession speech now.

46 It would answer the non-birther people who say "Well why not just release it?" but it would not satisfy those who are committed to it.

True.  Especially now.  But that would be a small contingent. 

Bear in mind, the whole claim is that the COLB -- apparently as real as steel -- is forged from the long-form.

Again, it depends on who you talk to. The internet warriors aren't the ones who are forming the 30+% of people who are labeled as "birthers" if they want to see the long-form BC.

That's who the media calls "birthers".

47 Oh that was dumb -- I shouldn't ahve said we haven't evolved (or at least changed, "evolved" with a neutral not positive meaning) socially. That we have done. What I meant was that we haven't changed psychologically or in terms of reason or in terms of basic kill or be killed mentality. We are still those same animals, but because social structures and the environment we live in have changed, we act differently, but at heart it's still the same drives and failings.

48 Here's my guess as to why the long form is not released: it shows Frank Marshall Davis as Obama's biological father.

49 So I wonder if Trig birthers and BHO birthers have round sessions where they try to out conspiracy each other?  I bet that would be a circle jerk of crazy.

50 I believe that Obama was probably born in Hawaii, but that there's something substantially incriminating on the long form. My conclusion is based solely on the conduct of Hawaii officials after the short form was released. But first, let's get a few facts straight.
Posted by: Average Joe at April 22, 2011 01:08 PM

So, do you think that Madelyn Dunham actually gave birth to him and blamed it on her teenage daughter?  Sort of a reverse Palin thing.

51

No conspiracy theory is complete until the Joos make an appearance.

Or the Bilderbergers, either or.

52 Bear in mind, the whole claim is that the COLB -- apparently as real as steel -- is forged from the long-form.

if you've already proposed one forgery why would you then say that there's no way the long form could also be forged?

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:01 PM (nj1bB)

We don't call it "Forgery" when the state does it. We call it "Amended."

My "Certified" birth certificate is "AMENDED." It now contains the names of people who were not my real parents, but it is "OFFICIAL" so none dare call it lies.

I also have my original birth certificate which lists my REAL parents.

No doubt you will allege some sort of conspiracy to explain the whole thing.

53 The original premise that started this whole rumor was that Obama's Certificate of Live Birth lacked the traits of a real COLB

I think that came pretty late in the show.

The Hillary-fan Birtherism that Republicans inherited seemed based almost solely on an uncorrected AP puff piece from his Senate run that said Obama was born in Kenya.

My not-conspiracy theory at the time was that it was an undiscouraged error, since Axelrod & Co. are astute enough to know that it was to their benefit for Obama to be exoticized/sterilized as not-one-of-those-black-dudes, so white women could safely get off on voting for him.

(I think a lot of innocent "Birtherism" that shows up in the polls now is a low-info echo effect of Obama's initial national press image, which was of a more-American-than-Americans-are foreigner (like what Bush said about illegals).)

I definitely remember being an "Obama's fake, not Kenyan, you chumps" guy before the COLB showed up.

54 My take, it's a canard to distract from the fact that Obama committed a felony by providing a false SSN# on a number of forms. Why? Cause he's a stupid, arrogant idiot who never took the time to get a SS card.

55 It would answer the non-birther people who say "Well why not just release it?" but it would not satisfy those who are committed to it. Back in the day, anyone who asked, "Why won't he just release it?" was a birther. On FOX and friends, Trump mentioned the $2 million in legal fees. The blonde on the show said she had heard that number. Anyone can find the FEC filings on line. Nobody in the media has? Of course, there are other people who say Obama is not constitutionally eligible for office no matter where he was born. I don't know anything about that theory, but Hillary raised the issue in the primaries. The Democrats, if they had any integrity, could have ended the whole discussion by doing what Republicans did for John McCain; hold a hearing and present the evidence. The American public is left relying on the word of Nancy Pelosi, which worked so well with Obamacare.

56 But the most widespread birtherism can be falsified, it demands the long-form birth certificate that Obama is hiding behind a wall of privacy. Some would argue that even if he did it, that wouldn't end the discussion. For some it wouldn't, but for most, it would. The counter question is: Why is he hiding it anyway? The explanation is that it's against HI state law to release any long form certificate once it's filed. If you can verify that the law actually exists that's all the proof you need. You can't say someone's hiding something if revealing it would break the law. Solution: Move to HI (Nice!), elect sympathetic state legislatures, overturn the law. Done.

57 Coca Cola just announced they were fleeing Wonkette.

58 Why stop at one official, government-perpetrated forgery? If you've already postulated one, what's the problem with two?

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:02 PM (nj1bB)

I dunno ask Obama. I don't know of anyone who can give an even partially plausible explanation of why Obama won't release two other wise benign documents. A Birth Certificate and his college transcripts. I have both a COLB and a Birth Certificate so I think Obama's COLB is real, the Birth Certificate just has a bunch more information on it than the COLB.

This is hurting Obama with a wider audience than republicans. The NY Times Poll doesn't give the amount of indys and dems that believe he was born somewhere else but if you do the math it's at least 5% with another 8% not sure. His approval from indys is down to 35% from the 52% he won with. People don't trust him and this isn't helping as much as democrats like to say it is.

59
Blah, blah, blah, excuses, excuses.

Why won't Sarah Palin release Trig's birth certificate?

60 Tami--- I still agree with that. In fact (I'll do a post on this), I was talking to William Kristol, who proposed what he thought was a contrarian view, that birtherism didn't hurt us, and I think I surprised him by noting that I've held that view for a while. Anyway, I joked that "we rebels and outlaws" held this position. Joking, because he is usually termed a RINO and I get that a lot myself. There are two different questions: 1. Does this hurt us? No, I don't think it particularly hurts us, because I think irrational conspiracy theories are quite commonplace and therefore "forgivable," and further, the question "Well why doesn't he just release it then?" is a reasonable one that tends to blunt any damage. 2. Is this true? No, it's not true, and it's irrational, for the reasons I've laid out above. This seems to be an inconsistency to you because most people have the same answer on 1 and 2 -- either they believe it's true AND it won't hurt us OR they believe it's false AND it will hurt us. I am one of those people who has a nuanced take-- that it's not true, not even close to true, but the damage it does is minimal, if any. And so's the RINO Bill Kristol, it turns out.

61

Or we can discuss Trump's Corollary which states:

People are stupid.  I can use that.

62 The Mossad did it.

63 Trig Trutherism/Birther Evidence comparison: Trig birth witnesses: Sarah Palin and her doctor. Both have given statements. Obama Birth Witnesses: None. (Mother dead, father dead, grandmother died on election eve; attending physician unknown; he was "identified" once in 2009 but it was proven to have been retired in 1961) Trig Documentation: Contemporaneous statement regarding birth from doctor; prior newspaper articles anticipating birth, and newspaper articles after birth. Obama Documentation: 2008 Certification; two 1961 newspaper articles identifying parents home address (which is why I think he might have been born in Hawaii). Trig Documented Official Lies about his birth: None. Obama Documented Official Lies about his birth: Former Governor Lingle; current attorney general Wisch; misleading and inconsistent statements by former DOH director Fukino.

64 There are conspiracies about DiogenesLamp's birth?  Who knew!

65

We are bigger and stronger and live longer, but our brains are still the same magic-believing things.

Good point, Ace. I guess the realist in me keeps waiting for someone to step up to the microphone and declare that, say, 9-11 Trutherism is pure bunk, here's why, and if you believe it, you're an idiot.

So, I suppose I'll just do it myself, on my own mic, IYKWIM.

BTW, has anyone ever told you that you seem to have an "old soul?"

66 Post a 2012 thread. Sabato posted a pretty dumb map saying NC and IN were toss ups. Couple it with Obama saying he is a quarter way through his presidency. It will be a fun thread.

67

I used to think there was no need to respond to the irrational conspiracy theorists, but recent events changed my mind.

I lived in the Omaha area in the late 80s and early 90s when the Franklin Credit Union scandal started. Initially, it involved some (truthful) allegations of financial impropriety. Over time, conspiracy theorists and petty criminal hijacked the story, and started telling wild tales of the sex parties that took place at the credit union, involving child sex slaves, and lots of gay sex, and every prominent politician, all the way up to GHW Bush himself. Finally, one of the petty criminals, a career juvenile delinquent named Alisha Owen, alleged that in fact, the Chief of Police had fathered her child.

Oops. Now this was a claim that could actually be tested. And was tested, as was the baby, who turned out to be (Surprise!) not the child of the Chief. So the hysteria faded, the juvenile delinquents went away, and the petty scam artists who pushed the story, like John DeCamp, mostly slunk away into the ignominy they deserved.

Anyway, the whole incident came up awhile back when I was talking to an old Omaha friend of mine. My daughter was there, and asked what the story was with the Franklin Credit Union. I told her to Google it (My mistake?). Well, it turns out that more than 90 percent of the hits on Google are to nut jobs who are still pushing the story, including a Johnny Gosch angle. They don't mention Alisha Owen at all, or if they do, insist the test was rigged, or "that one girl's lying doesn't undermine all the other (unverifiable or falsifiable) assertions."

My point of this is just that truth needs to keep working, because lying and evil work 24/7

68 I think ace's next post should be on the un-electability of Luap Nor.

69 28 Why stop at one official, government-perpetrated forgery? If you've already postulated one, what's the problem with two?

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:02 PM (nj1bB)

Why do you keep alleging a "government-perpetrated forgery? "

*I* have a officially certified "forged" (your term) birth certificate. (I'm adopted.)

Why stop at only two forgeries? My understanding is that this sort of forgery occurs every times someone adopts a child, or divorces from a woman with a child whom he adopted.

Is it a "conspiracy?" Well, since it is not illegal for state officials to amend birth certificates, I suppose it must not be a conspiracy.

70 On the aspect of an "original" birth certificate versus a current computer-generated copy, I need look no further than the nearest mirror.

When I was getting married, lo these many years ago, I needed a birth certificate to get the marriage license. We searched high and low in my records and my parents and couldn't find the damned thing.

So I went down to the local state records agency, in this case Georgia, and requested a certified copy. Not five minutes later, I was holding in my hands a freshly laser-printed document that looks a lot like the jpg of Barry's COLB.

And until this very moment, I never realized that I too was born in Kenya.

71

I 100% believe Obama was born in Hawaii but have often asked the why does he not release it question in the form of, he is the one that can end it and he chooses not to.

So, my theory is he either thinks it helps or there is something on the form that he thinks will hurt.

72

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

*nods knowingly*

73 So if i entered the witness protection program and was issued a new birth certificate and SSN, would they be forgeries? And would I be a party to a criminal conspiracy?

74 Conspiracy theories are feathered anvils, a strange thing, ungainly and ugly, but they provide something valuable to those who hold them.

That level of sadistic torture points to some kind of childhood trauma at the hand of a metaphor. Jesus, feathered anvils?

75 My take, it's a canard to distract from the fact that Obama committed a felony by providing a false SSN# on a number of forms. Why? Nope, I bet he got into Harvard as a foreigner, not a legacy student. The person who saw his transcripts is sitting on the Supreme Court now. I've read Barack H. Obama has been associated with 25 different social security numbers at 16 different addresses. The one heÂ’s been using since becoming a U.S. Senator begins with 042, was issued between 1977 and 1979 in the State of CT (while Obama supposedly was living in HI, and it belongs to an individual who was born in 1890.)

76 Obama's Birth Certificate is a version of Schoedinger's Cat. 

77 I would take all of this from you better, Ace, had you not repeatedly pulled the "Birtherism? It's Obama's problem to answer" gimmick. By that logic, debunking Trig Trutherism isn't Salon's job, or yours. Sarah Palin's problem to answer, right?

78 The real conspiracy was how the Republicans wound up with running a lump of shit like McCain in 2008.

79 It would certainly change mine. But I suspect that that due to the newly-released (or fabricated) claim that it is "half-handwritten", the crazier breed of birthers would be making all sorts of claims about how the handwriting should be interpreted. Which is probably why they're withholding it -- it's not all neat and typed out like the one for the Nordyke twins born the same week.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 22, 2011 01:11 PM (bN5ZU)

I have ALWAYS suspected that Barack's  "birth record" is an "at home birth" affidavit, and that he really does NOT have an official Hospital birth certificate record. 

This notion is consistent with the available facts, and more importantly it is consistent with everyone's behavior.

80 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 01:21 PM (v2K2g)

You always point to your personal experience but it has nothing to do with Obama.

Yes, documents can be forged or amended. That doesn't mean every document is.

There's no reason to believe (other than some want to) that what happened with you happened with Obama.

You're simply overgeneralizing from your personal experience.

81 sudo -printf COLB Barack Obama, aka JEF aka TOTUS aka Big-butt lover >aceofspades@mu.nu

Got it covered

82 Did Rosemary's Baby have a birth certificate?

83 two 1961 newspaper articles identifying parents home address (which is why I think he might have been born in Hawaii). The two announcements actually came from one paper that was bought out.

84 I didn't get far enough into it to get to Lincoln's assassination.

_{Did they get the guy?}

85 >>>That level of sadistic torture points to some kind of childhood trauma at the hand of a metaphor. Jesus, feathered anvils? Hey, give me a pass on it. It's hard to do a button. (A cute wrap-up.) That's why Monty Python just didn't bother with them.

86 The spam has become self-aware. Those CD keys are forgeries.

87 Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.

Ah. But hope never asks. It always promises, and very frequently, takes.

Hope in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up first.

88 By that logic, debunking Trig Trutherism isn't Salon's job, or yours. Sarah Palin's problem to answer, right?

Posted by: Vyceroy at April 22, 2011 01:25 PM (DjeMU)

For what reason? There is no law requiring that Sarah Palin be the mother of Trig to run for any office. She could have adopted Trig as far as that goes and chose to keep it secret for Trigs sake. Families do that all the time.

It's apples and oranges to compare the two.

89 always assumed the trig troofer stuff was a parody of the birther stuff. it seems though many took it seriously.

90 The real conspiracy was how the Republicans wound up with running a lump of shit like McCain in 2008. Posted by: TexasJew at April 22, 2011 01:25 PM (uR5Zf) Easy, the other choices were Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson, Duncan Hunter, Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo.

91 87 The spam has become self-aware. Those CD keys are forgeries.

Posted by: Andy at April 22, 2011 01:29 PM (5Rurq)

Skynet became self-aware yesterday.

92 64 There are conspiracies about DiogenesLamp's birth?  Who knew!

Posted by: Penfold at April 22, 2011 01:19 PM (1PeEC)

Apparently by Ace's standards there are conspiracies about every adopted kid.

They ALL have birth certificates with false information on them. The State officials KNOW they have false information on them, but the state officials are bound by law to refuse to DISCLOSE that they have false information on them.

Behold Ace's "conspiracy." Adoption law in all 50 states.

93 Easy, the other choices were Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson, Duncan Hunter, Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 22, 2011 01:30 PM (mHQ7T)

My point exactly.

94 Maybe Obama had a strange twin that they had to raise in a barn, much like "The Dunwich Horror" by H. P. Lovecraft.

95 The explanation is that it's against HI state law to release any long form certificate once it's filed. If you can verify that the law actually exists that's all the proof you need. You can't say someone's hiding something if revealing it would break the law. False! See and actually READ HRS 338-13: http://tinyurl.com/3fbyuht There is no ambiguity whatsover -- the state MUST release a copy of the long form to any person with a tangible interest in it. This excuse was not raised until a week or so ago, when the Hawaii Attorney General apparently thought Obama needed some cover in light of Trump's publicity regarding the issue. Please stop spreading the notion that the President of the United States is incapable of getting a copy of his own BC. It's as delusional as any conspiracy theory.

96 My Chakra is real, I tell you!  Real!

97 >>>I would take all of this from you better, Ace, had you not repeatedly pulled the "Birtherism? It's Obama's problem to answer" gimmick. It is Obama's problem. Obviously. It's not mine. It's only my problem if I assume this will hurt my aspirations to boot him out of office, but I don't in fact assume that. I think the theory is harmless, but wrong. People always seem to speak of "independents" as if they're more rational than partisans. I don't believe that. I think they're just as dopey -- dopier, in fact. A lot of partisans saw the "Bill Clinton Murder List." Some believed it, some dismissed it as crank. But I knew a lot of people who were not political at all who were talking it up. So I have no reason (based on my personal experience) to think independents are super-rational. As for Trigtherism being Palin's problem -- well, I guess, if by "problem" you mean "burden." it is her burden, to the extent she has to deal with the pain inflicted by this crap. Of course I'd love to help with that in any small way I can, by pushing back on it. I suppose I could do the same for Obama but I guess I just don't feel like it. I can state my confident opinion that this is bunk. But do I care if people choose to believe it anyway? No, not really, I don't. If they oppose Obama all the more intently over this, I'm not going to be broken up in tears about that.

98 So if i entered the witness protection program and was issued a new birth certificate and SSN, would they be forgeries? And would I be a party to a criminal conspiracy? Posted by: Penfold at April 22, 2011 01:23 PM (1PeEC) Would you need 25 different social security numbers at 16 different addresses? Maybe if you were hiding from The Terminator. You'd be party to a criminal conspiracy, if you assumed an office you were unqualified for and lied, especially if you were bankrolled by our foreign enemies.

99 And/or: The conspiracy theorist makes unfounded, implausible leaps from premise to conclusion.

If you've ever read Holy Blood, Holy Grail (the "nonfiction" Ur-text of the whole Dan Brown thing) this is pretty much all it does. The author admits as much in several places in a kind of "stay with me here...what if - " way.

But he strings like 4 or 5 together in a row and by the end you're like "Uhh, yeah. Probably not."

100 OK, where's TOTUS's birth certificate?

101 krak-- yeah I noticed myself those closing lines were not really applicable, as this sort of thing can ASK much of its believer. But I decided to quote the thing anyway. I needed a button.

102 Barack was never meant to escape from the burnt sienna box he was reared in.

103

Alternate headline:

Liars and Triggers and Birthers!  Oh my!

104 OK, where's TOTUS's birth certificate? Posted by: TexasJew at April 22, 2011 01:35 PM

Is a warranty card enough?

105 My point exactly. Posted by: TexasJew at April 22, 2011 01:31 PM (uR5Zf) So, your point is Republicans suck?

106 And so's the RINO Bill Kristol, it turns out.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:17 PM (nj1bB)

Ok, now I don't give a shit about Bambi's BC.....I'm more concerned that you and Bill Kristol are having conversations.

This won't end well.....

107 Why hasn't this thread been hijacked by trolls discussing washing each other's junk yet?

108

It's the damn Reptilians again...

109

I needed a (bigger) button.

 

Me too.

110
You're simply overgeneralizing from your personal experience.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 22, 2011 01:26 PM (plesI)

My point, (and it has always been my point) is that you cannot accept a computer "print-out" as Fact.

State bureaucrats aren't attesting to FACTS of which they have first hand knowledge. They are attesting to whatever has been put in their records. Their records can be amended by a Judge, or they can be of the sort regarded as "legally equivalent."  (Such as an at home birth affidavit.)

None of the proffered documents will demonstrate actual BIRTH on American soil. (especially in Hawaii with their weird birth certificate laws.)

111 It's the damn Reptilians again...

Zoroastrian Shape Shifters.

112 you know, I'm cutting that dumb poem. What happened is that I wanted to know (to cite) whoever said "hope is the thing that floats" but couldn't find the answer and the closest thing I had was emily dickenson's "hope is the thing with feathers" so I just rammed them together. Not worth it. I'm losing that. And the feathered anvil too.

113 So, your point is Republicans suck?

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 22, 2011 01:37 PM (mHQ7T)

Yes and they were complicit in allowing Obama and his hypersocialism into the White House instead to putting forward a conherent political philosophy, a conservative fiscal viewpoint and an actual candidate who didn't drool and who didn't have a metal plate in his head.

114 So I went down to the local state records agency, in this case Georgia, and requested a certified copy. Not five minutes later, I was holding in my hands a freshly laser-printed document that looks a lot like the jpg of Barry's COLB. Yes, and most states (including New York) do the same thing if you just fill out a form asking for a birth certificate. However, you can generally get the long form or "vault" copy if you specify that on the form. I did that last week, and got a long form -- laser printed on a fresh certificate, yes -- but the computer scan reproduced the original SIGNATURES, the original typewritten words, and the date and time stamp from the Division of Records, Department of Health, Borough of Manhattan. Google up what Trump got and you'll see the same thing.

115 In my wildest childhood dreams, I never aspired to punish a flaxen-haired Kansan with child.

116 okay, my button is now 10% less stupid and 85% less ghey.

117 It's ALL a Sikh conspiracy!

118

 I like that the left make themselves crazy with the nonsense. Keeps them pre-occupied.

119 Actually I can't believe I got a pass on quoting EMILY DICKENSON. The last time I posted a poem here -- Robert Frost's pretty cool and metal "I Am One Accustomed To The Night" -- I got like six thousand "who's gayer, you or your boyfriend?" raggings. You guys are becoming too frickin' LIBERAL, man.

120
There's no reason to believe (other than some want to) that what happened with you happened with Obama.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 22, 2011 01:26 PM (plesI)

There is EVERY reason to believe what happened to me ALSO happened to Obama.

When people get married it is not at all uncommon for the new husband to Adopt the woman's previous children. Given that the School record in Indonesia indicate the name "Barry Soetoro" it is MORE than likely that Lolo Soetoro Adopted him.

As Stanley Ann and Lolo didn't divorce until 1980, (he was 19) there would be no reason to "fix" Obama's adoption in Ann's divorce decree.

121

my button is now 10% less stupid and 85% less ghey.

 

Care for a second opinion?

122 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 01:38 PM (v2K2g)

Then your beef isn't with Obama but with every court and administrative agency in the United States.

In the immortal words of Miracle Max, "Have fun storming the castle!"

123 Just when I thought I couldn't enjoy this blog anymore, Ace has to go and quote Emily Dickinson. Although -- she didn't title any of her poems. Just sayin'. (I used to give tours at the Emily Dickinson Homestead -- now the Emily Dickinson Museum -- in Amherst, MA so I'm a bit of a geek when the Belle of Amherst is concerned.)

As for the topic... I just love how to liberals, questioning why Obama won't release his BC is crazypants, but thinking Sarah Palin did not in fact give birth to her own son is perfectly acceptable. Savage is right -- liberalism really is a mental disease.

124 Digoenes, I know you're talking to me, and it's rude to ignore, but for the reasons I spelled out I find it frustrating and futile to discuss this with you. I do not believe your conclusions are capable of changing so there is no percentage in debating it. Sorry, just, well, my whole point is that this is futile to discuss and that fundamentally premises are irrelevant. So there's no point in my answering your claimed premises.

125 You guys are becoming too frickin' LIBERAL, man.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:43 PM (nj1bB)

We've learned to accpet you ace and now you are giving us shit about our tolerance. I don't know what to do anymore.

126 More Emily Dickinson! And cowbell!

127 120 Actually I can't believe I got a pass on quoting EMILY DICKENSON.

You fag!  What in the hell were you thinking - have your balls dropped off?

What's next?  Are you going to post quotes from Beaches and Funny Girl next?   

128 Here is the thing to me about the whole Birther thing - what if its true? What the hell happens? People say, well, he isn't eligible, he isn't President. Really? There is no mechanism to do anything about it. Who could remove him from office? Under what authority? And how could you say someone who is currently the President is not eligible to be President? It would be a horrible, horrible Constitutional crisis.

129 >>>We've learned to accpet you ace and now you are giving us shit about our tolerance. I don't know what to do anymore. You can be a MAN!!! (SLAP!)

130 There is no mechanism to do anything about it. Who could remove him from office? Under what authority? And how could you say someone who is currently the President is not eligible to be President? It would be a horrible, horrible Constitutional crisis.

Posted by: blaster at April 22, 2011 01:46 PM (l5dj7)

Uhmmm he could be impeached for violating the constitution he's sworn to uphold but other than that yeah not much.

131 "I keep being told there is a third category, apart from "natural born" and "naturalized," and yet, there is no hint of such an in-between category in the caselaw of this country. And note: We're a very litigious people." The problem with this of course is that under the Constitution, the requirement of "natural born citizen" is only used to describe a qualification for President and Vice President. The 14th Amendment only deals with Citizenship, not natural born citizenship. So, the bi-racial child of a Vietnam vet is a straw man. Of course the child is a citizen of the US entitled to all the benefits of citizenship (except maybe running for POTUS). The question is whether the dual citizen child is a "natural born citizen" as defined in the constitution and qualified to be POTUS. This is a valid question of Constitutional interpretation. Ace's only refutation of this question is that it has never been raised in a prior court case, and since we are litigious, if it were a real issue, it would have been raised before. However, the definition of natural born citizen is ONLY relevant to the qualification for POTUS. It could not and would not ever be raised except for in the context of a Presidential election. It is being raised now for the first time (or at least it is trying to be raised). You are looking at a constitutional question of first impression. Just because a question has never been raised before doesn't mean it must have already been answered. THAT is a premise spawning a conclusion!

132 I'm pretty sure it's an impeachable offense and treason, and people would go to jail.

133

You know, I always wanted to write a porn script about Emily Dickinson and an itinerate rural button peddler starring John Leslie and Desiree Cousteau, but there wasn't enough time; there's NEVER enough time..

134 Then your beef isn't with Obama but with every court and administrative agency in the United States.

In the immortal words of Miracle Max, "Have fun storming the castle!"

Posted by: DrewM. at April 22, 2011 01:43 PM (plesI)

You mock my point. Great debate tactic. I suppose it's easier to mock than refute.

By the way, your response is an example of the "Fallacy of false Dilemma.."  

135

now. my po-em, does not make. sense

like balls. freshly, washed.  with, out a. rinse

ace, you have. emasculated my. perspicacity

you'll.  now, moisturize my button. with great, alacrity

136 >>Actually I can't believe I got a pass on quoting EMILY DICKENSON. I was gonna, but it's Good Friday and all. If you had gone with the Andi Sullivan approved Know Hope shit I would have had to get ugly.

137 It is Obama's problem. Obviously. It's not mine. It's only my problem if I assume this will hurt my aspirations to boot him out of office, but I don't in fact assume that. I think the theory is harmless, but wrong.
Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:34 PM (nj1bB)

It's no longer harmless when it births a cult that will latch on to a snake-oil salesmen like Donald Trump, and the fact that its proponents allow it to completely displace real policy issues is a real problem when they make up half of the Republican party. So it's very much our problem too.

138 Very good article. Glad Ace took the time to post this one.

139 Given that the School record in Indonesia indicate the name "Barry Soetoro" it is MORE than likely that Lolo Soetoro Adopted him. I thought Indonesian law forbids adoption after 5 YO.

140 And so's the RINO Bill Kristol, it turns out.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:17 PM (nj1bB)

I don't agree with Kristol on everything (in fact he's been pissing me off a bit recently) but I'd never call him a RINO.  The left at times gets almost as deranged about him as they do about Palin; my guess is that they view him as a manipulative Jooo bastard who can direct the weakminded to do things not in their interest.  He's as good a barometer about the way to appeal to the muddle as just about anybody. And, with a notable recent exception, he's been generally supportive of Palin and the Tea Party.  Plus the Weekly Standard is much better than National Review imo.

141 >>>The problem with this of course is that under the Constitution, the requirement of "natural born citizen" is only used to describe a qualification for President and Vice President I imagined this would be the response. But in fact cases have stated that there is no known third category apart from natural-born and naturalIZED and therefore any of the various provisions for granting birth citizenship (like being born in the country) are the same as being a natural born citizen. The fact is, if you are drawing a very thin distinction between "born a citizen due to the natural circumstaces of birth" and "natural born citizen," It is really upon you to demonstrate that such a distinction has ever before been recognized (or even hinted at), because at first blush, these seem to be exactly the same thing and thus it is fair to take them as perfectly synonymous. Unless you can demonstrate that there was always an distinction intended by the founders in the "citizen by natural circumstances of birth" and "natural born citizen.' To me? They're the same damn thing. They have most of the same words. If you have a tendentious claim that these too almost-identical concepts are very different, then please demonstrate this by citing the Founders (or anyone else, really) drawing such a thin distinction. Otherwise I'll just keep on assuming the courts had it right when they said "Duh, it's the same thing, just using different words."

142

Posted by: Jessie Jackson at April 22, 2011 01:51 PM (rpIn6)

You know Jesse, if you'd have "stayed out de Bushes" as you admonished us to do back in 2000, you wouldn't have knocked up as many young girls.

143 I've noticed every Palin thread ace has posted turns into a big rant. Anyone reach the same conclusion?

144 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 01:51 PM (v2K2g)

That's the thing...your "point" can't be dealt with seriously. You are simply saying the entire legal regime of dealing with documents in this country is illegitimate because of your particular case.

What exactly is there to take seriously?

145 Incidentally, I think that Hope is the thing that floats thing is a derivative from the movie Hope Floats. Yea, I was trying to get some. Don't judge me.

146 I think you miss the biggest fault of erroneous conspiracy theories. It is how theorists deal with the unknown. In any real world situation, some facts can be held with 100% certainty, others will fall well short of that, and some key facts will be completely unknown and have to be probabilistically inferred from known facts. In dealing with the unknown your theoretical model of events can have multiple possibilities. However, for every possible series of facts and events, you do not necessarily have a distinct conclusion. Many possible series of events may lead to the same conclusion. How you deal with multiple possibilities with unknown contributing elements is where I think most "conspiracy theorists" let their logic go awry. That is why I like to use something similar to Bayesian belief to analyze political interaction, it more reliably comes to the correct conclusions, even if the actual series of facts remains improbable.

Take birtherism for example.
There are all sorts of facts, with various levels of reliability.

Things like, "Old woman says she was there"
"Actual long form can be filled out by a midwife with no actual visit to a hospitial"
"President refuses to release long form"

and other things like "News paper release"
"Would have had to travel from Africa, to Hawaii, with a newborn"
"Former Republican appointed health dept chair said the certificate is in order"
"Short form released and appears in order"

In the end you have two choices. Either Obama was born in the US or he wasn't.

Regardless of which one is true, your theory must explain all known facts. Perhaps you explain a fact as "old woman was old and didn't know what she was talking about and was never there" or "The midwife who faked the long form also thought to do a newspaper release" etc etc.


In either event. You will come up with a bunch of theories and a probaility each one is correct.
Theory 1 = 15%
Theory 2 = 5%
Theory 3 = 30%
Theory 4 = 15%
Theory 5 = 35%
All of which explain all of the known facts and come to some conclusion as to whether Obama was born in the US.

1,2,3,4 = Obama born in US.
5 = Obama born outside US.

Conspiracy Theorist: Probability of Theory 5 > than any other theory => OBABMA BORN OUTSIDE US!!!eleventy!!

Rational human: Cumulative probability of all theories that Obama was born inside US > than probability of the theory he was born outside US => Obama born inside US, and one of the theories 1-4 is likely correct.

See how different outcomes are between saying "of any given theory, theory 5 is most likely true it concludes Obama is born outside of the US" and "considering all theories, conclusion Obama born in US is most likely true"? Note that both of those statements are true.

147

Holy crap. Anyone listen to Beck's radio show. He decimated Schmuckabee up the squeakhole. THANK YOU Beck!

148 You guys are becoming too frickin' LIBERAL, man.
Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:43 PM (nj1bB)

That's pretty bold talk for a one eyed fatman!

149 120 Actually I can't believe I got a pass on quoting EMILY DICKENSON.
Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:43 PM (nj1bB)

I'll post a poem ABOUT Emily Dickinson:

Higgledy-piggledy
Emily Dickinson
Liked to use dashes
Instead of full stops.

Nowadays, faced with such
Idiosyncrasy,
Critics and editors
Send for the cops.

-Wendy Cope

150

The COLB was not fake. It never had been fake. It did have a serial number. It did have a stamp -- but the "documentation verification experts" did not know that the stamp is on the back of the document, which hadn't been seen in the pictures of it. (Odd thing for experts not to know.)

Likewise, the signature was on the back too, exactly where it should be

The COLB is a post hoc document. There is nothing that shows contemporaneous witness to the supposed birth event

The claim that the COLB  was fake, or did not have a signature or serial number is not the reason it became an issue for most people.

It has a signature...but not that of an attending physician...just some bureaucratic pencil pusher in the office that creates these facsimilies.

It's that the COLB does not have any info whatsoever to prove  ( or point to a paper trail that does so) that Ogabe was born in Hawaii.

...so there is no equivalence there.

I think Ogabe was probably born in Hawaii...but for those that do not...no conclusive evidence has been proffered.

I personally think there is something on it that goes against the narrative that has been created around him.

 

151 125 Digoenes, I know you're talking to me, and it's rude to ignore, but for the reasons I spelled out I find it frustrating and futile to discuss this with you.

I do not believe your conclusions are capable of changing so there is no percentage in debating it.

Sorry, just, well, my whole point is that this is futile to discuss and that fundamentally premises are irrelevant. So there's no point in my answering your claimed premises.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:44 PM (nj1bB)

Yeah, I figured it was something like that.

From MY perspective, you simply aren't comprehending my point. You are doing the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NA NA NA NA NA  I"m NOT LISTENING!!!!"

You don't think I can be reasoned with on this issue, and I conversely think the same of you.  You've got the louder microphone, so you effectively control the debate. In that respect, you (and crew) are much like the Mainstream Media. Monolithic in opinion, and disdainful of dissent which injures the narrative.

I think subsequent events will exonerate MY thinking. Will we "birthers"  get an apology then?

152 Not worth it. I'm losing that. And the feathered anvil too.

That feathered anvil was like a waxy bolo with a silver & turquoise clip around the neck of your post. It added poignancy, sure, but the cost to our shared buy-in was too high, like a helium balloon made of $100 bills.

153 149:

+20 Bronsons

154 When I was getting married, lo these many years ago, I needed a birth certificate to get the marriage license. We searched high and low in my records and my parents and couldn't find the damned thing.

So I went down to the local state records agency, in this case Georgia, and requested a certified copy. Not five minutes later, I was holding in my hands a freshly laser-printed document that looks a lot like the jpg of Barry's COLB.

Posted by: Andy at April 22, 2011 01:22 PM (5Rurq)

Go back and ask for a copy from your birth county again.  You may find that since your wedding, they've spent the money to put all their vital records into digital image form and can print you off a replica of the document your birth hospital filed with the county.

155

You know Jesse, if you'd have "stayed out de Bushes" as you admonished us to do back in 2000, you wouldn't have knocked up as many young girls.

Posted by: TexasJew at April 22, 2011 01:53 PM (uR5Zf)

Speaking of which, is there any evidence that Revrun Jackson has been spending any quality time with his bastard daughter that he promised to do during his 15 minute period of atonement away from the MFM cameras?  Because I remember him saying that and Revrun Jesse's word is his bond, no?

He could start out by teaching her how to enunciate clearly so she doesn't sound illiterate.

156 It is Obama's problem. Obviously. It's not mine. It's only my problem if I assume this will hurt my aspirations to boot him out of office, but I don't in fact assume that. I think the theory is harmless, but wrong. People always seem to speak of "independents" as if they're more rational than partisans. I don't believe that. I think they're just as dopey -- dopier, in fact. A lot of partisans saw the "Bill Clinton Murder List." Some believed it, some dismissed it as crank. I am an independent. A right-leaning one, not one of the indies you justifiably criticize for being deliberately uninformed about politics (obviously, as such a person wouldn't spend his time reading a political blog). Anyway, earlier this year, when you were being criticized by some ("true cons", I believe) for supposedly being an Allahpundit-esque candyass RINO, you retorted something to the effect of "if I'm a RINO, then, shouldn't I be able to tell you what RINOs think about this issue"? Well, as an indie, I VERY much challenge your assertion that Birtherism does not harm the conservative brand / message. I agree with Dr. Krauthammer that it is beclowns conservatives and distracts from the real issues, which is where Obama comes up short. Indies can be persuaded, Ace, but not when they take the underlying politician or message to be a joke (is that not the entire argument against a Palin candidacy, that she has a credibility gap that is huge amongst independents?).

157 129 Here is the thing to me about the whole Birther thing - what if its true? What the hell happens? People say, well, he isn't eligible, he isn't President. Really? There is no mechanism to do anything about it. Who could remove him from office? Under what authority? And how could you say someone who is currently the President is not eligible to be President? It would be a horrible, horrible Constitutional crisis.

Posted by: blaster at April 22, 2011 01:46 PM (l5dj7) 

Unlike the Civil war, or when Roosevelt confiscated everybody's gold.

158 Posted by: TexasJew at April 22, 2011 01:41 PM (uR5Zf) Is it crazy to think the Bushes, who have done to the national GOP what Giuliani and Pataki have done to the NY state GOP, and their buddies the Saudis and the Carlyle Group, put their "black Pope," as Bush once called Obama, into the White House to do their dirty work while the country imploded and until Jeb Bush could run in 2016, and it would be business as usual?

159 Back in the early 40's the OSS did research to determine the optimum size a cell could be and still maintain a reasonable expectation that it would function long enough to do work. The answer was three. The only way to really keep a spy safe was for it to be a single operator directly contacting _one_ controller.

Troofers, Birfers and Trigtherism has been under intense scrutiny from hundreds of thousands of people.  So far no one has come forward to claim:
1. I helped plant explosives at the WTC or knew someone who did
2. I helped plant a birth certificate or forge one or knew someone who did
3. I was at the hospital when Bristol Palin gave birth to Trig or knew someone who was.

4. I was on the grassy knoll or knew someone who was.

160

I like that the birtherism movement continues...because I want to see the document.

Can we start and educationism movement too???...cuz I would love to see those records that he also refuses to release.

161 for supposedly being an Allahpundit-esque candyass RINO Someone called him shariapundit today, which I liked.

162 -- Otherwise I'll just keep on assuming the courts had it right when they said "Duh, it's the same thing, just using different words." -- What case was that? There are plenty of cases dealing with citizenship, good old fashion citizenship, but as far as I know, there is not a single case that has every decided the meaning of natural born citizenship in the context of Presidential qualification. Any case dealing with citizenship could not be used as precedent on a Presidential qualification contest, because the constitutional language is different. You might be right that they are the same damn thing, but that has never been decided and should be. Frankly, I thing that the drafters intended the more narrow definition of natural born citizen that would exclude dual citizens with dual loyalties from being qualified to be POTUS, but I think that if the issue were decided today, the dual citizen would be permitted to be POTUS. Either way it would make for interesting legal arguments with citations to Vattel and founders and common law, etc, ect. I am just pissed that nonsensical standing issues are frustrating a good Constitutional throw down.

163 Somebody needs to put me some fuckin knowledge here: if the law in Hawaii forbids the long-form BC from being released, wouldn't that by default make anybody born in Hawaii ineligible to be POTUS according to the birthers? That has to be the stupidest fucking law ever. If nobody is allowed to see them, then what the fuck is the point in even keeping them on file?

164 140 Given that the School record in Indonesia indicate the name "Barry Soetoro" it is MORE than likely that Lolo Soetoro Adopted him.

I thought Indonesian law forbids adoption after 5 YO.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 22, 2011 01:53 PM (mHQ7T)

I have no idea. I'm just pointing out that there is at least one piece of paper that supports the conclusion that he was adopted.

165 I realize some people *absolutely love* this topic. It's not that I don't care, it's that....well no, actually I could care less.

He's there. Not a damn thing we can do about it now. But we can move forward and figure out how the hell to get him out.

Maybe it would be nice to have a thread to find out what people are doing in their community and/or in their social network world to promote conservativism. I would find that far more productive, but that's just me.

166 Uhmmm he could be impeached for violating the constitution he's sworn to uphold but other than that yeah not much. Really? Walk me through that. What is the high crime or misdemeanor? Violating the Constitution? Hell, he violates the Constitution more by 9 a.m. than most people do all day. The I word is not even whispered about the whole Libya thing, and you think they would hold a whole trial on this? Not gonna happen. The Congress could pass a law requiring that the FEC require proof of qualification when filing. But you know the Senate wouldn't pass it. And if they did, would it be veto-proof? You know he would veto it. So then what? Maybe he doesn't get reelected, but since the FEC doesn't require that candidates be qualified, he could still run and win. Then there could be some big foofaraw over the House accepting the slates for the EC or whatever, but, that is all very, very ugly.

167 Conspiracy or not, truth or not, pissing into the wind about it isn't doing anyone any good.

The folks who are in a position to know aren't talkin'. So short of snatching and water boarding them we simple serfs are going to have to find something else to worry about.

It serves Obama's purposes to give us lots of little sticks to chase around the yard.

168

I've long said that there is SOMETHING on Obama's long form birth certificate that is keeping him from revealing it.  I don't know if it's his birthplace or what, but there's SOMETHING there.  I just can't imagine what it is:

1) People have theorized it's about the "religion" identified on the BC; namely, that it might be "Muslim" instead of "Christian." 

First, I'm not familiar enough with birth certificates from the 60's to know if religion was even a category.  I've seen my own 1979 NH birth certificate, and I'm pretty sure "religion" isn't listed. 

Second, even if this WERE the case, who cares?  If the child's just been born, the religion listed would be that of the parents, not the child.  As he grew up Obama could have chosen to change his religion.  I think he'd want to play that UP, not down.  "See the apostate muslim, proud to be a Christian!  Vote this brave man into the Oval Office!"

2) Parentage and racial make-up have also been cited as potential embarrassments he wouldn't want to reveal.  It's possible the father or mother listed on his real birth certificate (not the COLB) is/are different from the parents he's claimed his whole life (Kenyan father, white hippie mom, etc).

Okay, fine.  Back in the day this kind of thing might have counted against a candidate, but now?  Very few people would care if he was born out of wedlock (clearly), or that he was born to mixed parentage (again, clearly), or that his race might be listed as anything other than "black." 

Maybe he was born to two black parents, and he doesn't want to "scare off" the "racist" white voters by revealing that he's not of mixed racial heritage.  Or maybe his race, as listed on the long form, is identified as "white," which could turn away black voters who want a BLACK man in office.  Who knows?  Either way, it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for something that really isn't that big of a deal except to (actual) racists.

3) Gender.

This is my vote.  I'm pretty sure he was born a woman.  That's why Michelle wears the pants in that family, and why Bammy rides a girl's bike and wears hideous mom jeans.

------------------

There are other things that could be different from what's been reported in the media (the hospital where he was born, the date of his birth, the delivering physician, etc), but absolutely nothing that should be so damning that he would need to bury it at such expense. 

So if it's NOT his nationality, what the hell is it?   I really didn't give a hoot when the hoopla started, but the fact that it's continued with no plausible explanation from the White House has made me interested.  I'm not a Birther, but I am a curious American, and I don't see why I should apologize for my curiosity over something so easily laid to rest.

169 (she must be-- she was saying mean things about Obama, after all!) Was? I'm fairly sure, she is still on the war path there Ace, and has been since 2008.

170 "I am one of those people who has a nuanced take-- that it's not true, not even close to true, but the damage it does is minimal, if any." You've been all over the map on this issue. Each post denying the previous....."Hurts us" indeed. I'm an Independent. I really don't care if the kids across the room giggle and point at me when I sit at the geek table for lunch. Your High school is so mean. BTW, did you ever see Kerry's Honorable Discharge? Nope, you didn't. He finally had it released just before the election to a lone reporter for the Boston Globe. But don't worry, that guy reported that there was nothing unusual about it. Well, that settled THAT conspiracy; What fucking IDIOTS thought there was something going on THERE?

171 166:

I tell everyone to frequent the AoSHQ.

And vote.

And bug the shit out of Brad Sherman the Human Earthworm and my two hag bitch Senators.

172 >>>You don't think I can be reasoned with on this issue, and I conversely think the same of you. You've got the louder microphone, so you effectively control the debate. In that respect, you (and crew) are much like the Mainstream Media. Monolithic in opinion, and disdainful of dissent which injures the narrative. Please. Every frigging debate with you guys turns instantly to YOUR preferred narrative of the Righteous Everyman Populists vs. the Privileged Elitist Establishment. Please get over your fucking moral vanity one of these days. >>>I think subsequent events will exonerate MY thinking. Will we "birthers" get an apology then? Of course it will because I apologize when proven to be in error. But since we're keeping track of apologies, all of a sudden, I have yet to have heard a single Christine O'Donnell supporter say to me, "Hey, I supported her and thought she could win, but I guess you were right about her being unelectable." But I guess the Righteous Everyman Populists don't have to confess error. Only the Privileged Elitist Establishment does. Because righteousness always makes right. Just saying. Since we're keeping track of "W's" and "L's" on the prognostication/judgment front.

173

Happy Earth Day, morons.

A song about "recycling":

http://tinyurl.com/6dsyz7b

174 Shorter shorter version of ace's piece: Predetermined conclusions.

175 starring John Leslie and Desiree Cousteau, but there wasn't enough time; there's NEVER enough time...
Posted by: TexasJew at April 22, 2011 01:50 PM (uR5Zf)

Ahh. Two legends. Nice choices!

To me? They're the same damn thing. They have most of the same words. Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:53 PM (nj1bB)

Yeah! Sort of like when I say "I'm going to go jack one out in my room to those great old Cousteau vids", it's pretty much exactly like saying "Those great old Jacque Cousteau vids are laying out in my room."

(I'm not trying to make a point here. Just a lame joke.)

176 Religion is not listed on BC's, and he's obviously black. Father: Frank Marshall Davis would have been quite embarrassing, but he was married and that's unlikely it would have been recorded, even if it's a likelihood.

177

I bet a dollar a Gurkha, inserted onto a nearby beach via submarine, could slip unstopped into the secure vital records location of Hawaii's DOH and bring out the bastard child's file.

You betcha!   

178 He's there. Not a damn thing we can do about it now. But we can move forward and figure out how the hell to get him out.

Ms. Underalls, I was starting to like you with the whole "bag of dicks" proposal this morning (it was positively mouth-watering!) but then you go and say this.

179 It is really upon you to demonstrate that such a distinction has ever before been recognized (or even hinted at), because at first blush, these seem to be exactly the same thing and thus it is fair to take them as perfectly synonymous.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:53 PM (nj1bB)


The problem with this notion is that every attempt to do so is completely ignored. Every time i've tried to show you founders documents supporting the conclusion, you just leave and stop reading.

Your mind is made up, and it is not subject to change. It is my observation that you are simply not amendable to reason on THIS issue.

I have lived a long time, and one of the things i've discovered in my life is that Most people have a subject whereupon a discussion ALWAYS enters the "twilight zone."  I had one friend that saw "racism" behind every bush, and not a single bad thing happened to him that he wouldn't count as the result of "racism."

He would not be talked out of it, and he would become angry with me if I tried. He would be perfectly reasonable about any OTHER issue, but not about racism.

I have spoken with many people about many things, and if you talk to people enough you discover most everyone has some subject upon which they will refuse to be rational.

I think for you the subject is "birtherism."  You won't even LOOK at evidence that contradicts your thinking, even if the evidence is over 200 years old. (Which pretty much all of my evidence is.)

Anyway, don't suggest someone should demonstrate something, then refuse to LET them demonstrate it. It's more honest to say "My mind's made up and I don't want to hear it!"

180

Also, BTW, the chances of an 18 year old giving birth to a Down's kid are tiny. A 40 year old mother is hundreds of times more likely to have a Down's baby.

Google it, Andy!!

181 Unlike the Civil war, or when Roosevelt confiscated everybody's gold. Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 01:59 PM (v2K2g) You know, the Civil War was a *bad thing* - not so interested in going through it again. Imagine that it goes to the courts. The fucking libtard courts we have today. What are the odds they don't throw out the whole natural born thing? Say its anachronistic or some crap? Well, I guess Arnold is President after that, then probably Prince William because that dress was so dreamy.

182 A very good explanation.  Thank you.  It is also the answer to the inevitable question as to "why" a crazed murderer does what he does.  You cannot explain an irrational act rationally.  It's as simple as that.

183

Actually, if you want to talk about conspiracy theories, how's this one?  I cooked it up after reading Mark Steyn's NRO Corner piece, "UFO OK JFK 86?"    
------------

August 4, 1961 - Barack Obama is born, supposedly in Honolulu, HI

November 12, 1963 - President Kennedy makes multiple requests for top secret documents relating to UFOs

November 22, 1963 - President Kennedy is assassinated in Dallas, TX
 
Fast forward to the present day:
 
Despite repeated requests from multiple sources, President Barack Obama refuses to release his long form birth certificate

Rumors continue to circulate that the birth certificate would prove BHO was not born in Hawaii as claimed, and is in fact a foreign national, making him ineligible for the Presidency.

 The Theory:
 
1) President Kennedy became aware, through secret channels, of an alien presence on Earth

2) This presence, he was told, had manifested in the form of a young child, indistinguishable from other humans

3) Incredulous, President Kennedy requests top secret files relating to UFO sightings and extraterrestrial activity

4) Worried that their plan for world domination may be derailed, the Union of Extraterrestrials, Aliens, and Elder Gods (UEAEG) contracts with Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate Kennedy.

5) To keep the alien child's presence "under the radar," he is frequently moved around the globe.  His birthplace is given as "Hawaii," since it provides a plausible explanation for the lingering sense of "Otherness" that the boy exudes.

6) As the alien child grows to manhood, he is tutored in the arts of agitation and progressivism.  The UEAEG has identified that these are the most effective methods to topple a civilization, leaving it broken and ripe for the picking.

7) Alien Child is easily swept through the human educational and political system thanks to mind control technology provided by the UEAEG

This same technology is used to incline 32% of the American electorate to vote for the Alien Man-Child for President, despite his murky background, lack of experience, and utter deficit of proper credentials.  (Note: The UEAEG only needed to Mind Control 32% of the population because they'd discovered that 20% of the American voting public was already crazy enough to vote an alien into office.  Exhibit A: Dennis Kucinich)

9) The UEAEG sits back and watches as President Alien Man-Child proceeds to wreak all manor of havoc on the country and the world.  Their sense of accomplishment is only briefly marred when Cthulu and the Colour Out of Space get into a tiff over whether Alien Man-Child's VP is also an alien (Cthulu says yes, COS says no way, because aliens don't need hair plugs).

In short: Obama doesn't produce a birth certificate because he doesn't have a birth certificate, owing to the fact that he is not actually from the planet Earth but rather from some distant world in the far reaches of space, and it was this knowledge that led directly to the assassination of President Kennedy.  QED.

184 The poem you're looking for is this: Ode to the Lost Summer When ere the cloud of September, Mocks the Summer, and with its chill gloats, Cast your eyes to the Spring, and remember, That Hope is the thing that floats. Don't you know, warmed by fire in December, When your flesh is encumbered by coats, That the words of last dying ember, Will be Hope is the thing that floats? Edgar Bryce Symington, "Odes to Lost Times," 1816 http://tinyurl.com/3ku7wlp

185

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 01:53 PM (nj1bB)

The idea that there is some sort of 3rd category citizenship, other than natural born and naturalized, as believed by Diogenes Lamp and others comes from a misunderstanding of Article II where it refers to natural born and other citizens.

Natural born means automatic conferrral from circumstances of birth.

Natural born in the Constitution actually refers to native born...jus solis -citizenship conferred by being born in that just-established political geography. This comes from the concepts of English natural law.There was no possibility for jus sanguinus (by blood) because there was no nation for anyone to have parents from.

It's a simple concept, but Diogenes cannot seem to grasp that.

186 >>>You've been all over the map on this issue. Each post denying the previous..... No, I haven't. You are just one of those people who think it must be either: 1) True and it helps us or 2) False and it hurts us People always tend to think that what they think must, by necessity, be a good thing. I'm one of those people who recognizes frequent schisms between the two. I have never suggested this was a real theory. Every time I've spoken, even to say it's harmless, I've added (by the way -- it's not true). However, I have also decided that, based on personal experience, guesses about psychology, and, lately, POLLING, that this doesn't hurt us. A false belief can be harmless. All of us have false beliefs. Most of them do no harm. We go about our daily lives believing in false things and are never harmed by them. The question, politically, that matters is "Does this help us or hurt us?" Well, it doesn't help us, because it's farfetched and will come to nothing and the people who believe it tend to be the same people who would vote for a space alien over Obama. (Count me in that last category as well!) But it also doesn't hurt us, because there's always that simple "Well just release it already" rejoinder. Plus, polling. Kristol pointed this out. If this hurts us, why is Obama's approval going down or staying the same (bad) while Trump is mainstreaming this? I suppose it's possible that it's HELPING Obama, but Obama is suffering bigger independent negative forces against him, so that his poll numbers we be a little lower EXCEPT FOR Trump's bluster on the issue; but more likely, I think, is my original guess: It's doesn't help and it also doesn't really hurt. Now, I don't really care what you believe. I don't mean that in a bad way, as in "you're nothing to me." I mean it in this way: If you choose to believe something I do not believe, it doesn't hurt me. What do I care if you have a little fanciful notion in your head I know is true? How does that hurt me? It only hurts me if it undermines the anti-Obama cause generally, but I guessed that it wouldn't hurt the cause, and recent polling seems to confirm that, generally. So while my belief is not *proved*, I have not lost confidence in the basics of it -- wrong, but harmless.

187 My upcoming book will reveal that the original BC was stolen by a cabal of Right and Left Wing Bloggers that conspired to confuse and whipsaw the resulting debate and generate revenue through the myriad birther threads.

This scam was not unlike the scheme to trade bogus Carbon Credits on the now DOA Chicago Climate Exchange.

Yes folks, some people will do anything for money, and on that point you can order from the initial printing of my new book "Where Was The Conception Of The Birther Conspiracy Whelped" _{(yes currently working to consolidate the title)}, available at the World Debt Naily website. 

188 That's the thing...your "point" can't be dealt with seriously. You are simply saying the entire legal regime of dealing with documents in this country is illegitimate because of your particular case.
Posted by: DrewM. at April 22, 2011 01:55 PM (plesI)



HOW do you get that interpretation?

Really, what is so HARD to understand about state officials putting FALSE information on a birth certificate?



Hey, any lawyers out there? Please answer this question for DrewM's benefit.

Can a birth certificate be Altered?

189

DOCTOR: I'm afraid I have some bad news for you, Mr. Spades. Your blood tests actually show you're 37% retarded yourself.

Ace : I'd like a second opinion.

DOCTOR: You're also teh gey

190 Average Joe, Thanks! I knew it must be older than JackStraw's claim that it originated with "Hope Floats." I knew that that title came from an older saying.

191 Boy, Wankette is still taking a beating from advertisers leaving them.

192 Well, that settled THAT conspiracy; What fucking IDIOTS thought there was something going on THERE? Posted by: er at April 22, 2011 02:08 PM (+aMaK) Yeah, but Jean Queri was SWIFTBOATED! /

193 Oh, by the way DrewM, here's the appropriate part of Hawaiian law regarding late or altered birth certificates. You can find this statute at Hawaii.gov



§338-17  Late or altered certificate as evidence.  The probative value of a “late” or “altered” certificate shall be determined by the judicial or administrative body or official before whom the certificate is offered as evidence. [L 1949, c 327, §21; RL 1955, §57-20; HRS §338-17; am L 1997, c 305, §4]

194 192 Boy, Wankette is still taking a beating from advertisers leaving them.

How many advertisers is that now, a dozen? 

195 If the law in Hawaii forbids the long-form BC from being released, wouldn't that by default make anybody born in Hawaii ineligible to be POTUS according to the birthers? That has to be the stupidest fucking law ever. If nobody is allowed to see them, then what the fuck is the point in even keeping them on file?

Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at April 22, 2011 02:03 PM (IoUF1)

Ol Dirty, the law forbids a person's birth certificate from being released without the consent of the individual.  If Obama said, "Yes, okay," then it could be released.  That's standard in any Vital Records department, to protect a person's privacy and identity.  It's the same reason you can't just go pick up a copy of anybody's birth, marriage, divorce, or death certificate from your local Vital Records depository without express consent or a direct familial connection (such as a child looking up their deceased parent's death certificate).

196

^{I knew it must be older than JackStraw's claim that it originated with "Hope Floats." I knew that that title came from an older saying.}

They ALL float down here.

197 Pretty nice effort, but futile. This will not change any minds.

That's true for the most committed, but I think its valuable to have out in the public record.  I think there are more persuadable leaners than people easily appreciate.

If I can confess this without destroying all credibility, I flirted with one element of 9-11 trutherism in the early years.  Specifically, I ran across the "where's the Boeing?" website, which is superficially plausible.  To a layman, it looks like there should be more airplane wreckage.  Then someone forwarded me a video of a jet fighter hitting a concrete wall and disintegrating, and I backed off.

But that kind of debunking worked for me, and I think it works for the casual entertainers of conspiracy theories.  In that sense, I think Popular Mechanics' one issue debunking the tower conspiracy was more valuable on this issue than most bloggers and conservative talk show hosts put together.  Apparently nobody wants to get caught taking it seriously, but someone needs to do the work of getting the details out, or it leaves a persuadable leaner wondering, "hey, why don't they ever rebut the charge instead of only mocking it?"

198 I'm sorry I sent $50 if good money to Chrisitine O'Donnell. I really thought the professional moocher could win.

Also sorry I sent $100 to FRED!.

199 >>>I think for you the subject is "birtherism." You won't even LOOK at evidence that contradicts your thinking, even if the evidence is over 200 years old. I have looked at it. It's all crap like 'Chester A. Arthur, when running against someone supposedly of dubious natural born status, advanced a theory that his opponent couldn't take office because you need two natural born parents to be natural born yourself" and etc. This is a "citation" to you. That one guy advanced a theory when it was in his immediate political interests to do so, but no one said so before and no one has said so since. This is just thrashing about for any "evidence" to support an immutable conclusion. The evidence and inferences are subject to change and adjustment but the conclusion remains fixed in the sky like the north star.

200

There is no evolution of the human, at least not for the last 100,000 years. We are mostly what we were in the Iron age. The big difference is diet and lifestyle. We are bigger and stronger and live longer, but our brains are still the same magic-believing things.

 

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)
English physicist & science fiction author (1917 - )

 

I suspect that part of the problem lies in the much of humanity mastering the basic principles of logic and scientific method. The post re:1869 Harvard entry exam brought up some interesting points of contention in the comments. The central dispute being whether modern civilization is better served by a vast array of information memorization or by the means to reason to solid, logical conclusions.

 

There was a story out not too long ago re: how current technology was altering internally the way that the human mind operates, evolving it as it were. But technological advancements are not just alterning us internally. They are altering us externally as well. They are accessable to each human organism rather than only to the central biological tree from which they were derived. Internal evolution functions without our input or required undertanding. External evolution processes require only a basic understanding as they become more "user friendly" and much of them operate without us being aware of just how our lives are being altered.

The point I guess is that external evolution has made information easily available in vast quantities. That has upsides especially for those that filter out the garbage and logically utilize what is left. The downside is it has also made survival often contingent on the logically reasoned conclusions and processes of others.  Information is easy thanks to the advances made by creative minds. 

Logical reasoning is no longer required on a personal level for survival or it is at least much diminished. Somebody else has taken that responsibility and now it is on autopilot. Rosie can assert that "fire cannot melt steel" because her survival doesn't depend on such an assertion. There are all kinds of safeguards that others have put in place to make sure Rosie never has to deal with that conclusion. She gets a pass on contention for the Darwin Award. Ask a sailor on a WWII aircraft carrier if with his experience he could draw such a conclusion and expect his survival rate to be more than a few months.

Reason is lacking but information is everywhere. Reason relies on personal discipline and a basic understanding that a=a and that there really is only one reality, one that you must continually verify. But who cares about that when I've read all kinds of conspiracies of "experts" on the internet?  

Logical fallicies become the norm among certain portions of the population. They fall back on the notion of how much information they "know" and this assures them that their conclusions are correct. Their personal ego and emotional detachment to conclusions become the driving force in their reasoning process. Invariably one idiotic conclusion almost always leads to a series of illogical conclusions all interelated in a giant web of conspiratorial kookery.

201 Trutherism hurt Bush and helped the Democrats. Trig trutherism hurts Sarah Palin by making it acceptable to hurt her children, because they're not her children. Birtherism is hoist for the Democrats own petard, but it's probably true, since they always project.

202 Lots of people are more concerned with the First Dunce's college transcripts and other, more recent information than where the lying whoreson was born.

203 199 I'm sorry I sent $50 if good money to Chrisitine O'Donnell. I really thought the professional moocher could win.

Also sorry I sent $100 to FRED!.

Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake?  Anybody can make an error;  an error only becomes a mistake when one refuses to correct it.

Correct the error by donating to The Donald, .

/I kid, I kid! 

204 oh by the way, wonkish rogue, now that you quote me, I think I meant "the last 10,000 years." I mean when humans became so socialized and advanced in our social structures that Darwinian forces would have largely abated. 100,000 years ago would still be law of the jungle stuff.

205 Kratos: I don't know how many, but most are major companies. Also, Clarke moved to Sri Lanka so he could schtup little boys.

206 You're welcome, Ace! I would compose a poem and credit an imaginary poet to accompany any impossible-to-track down quote in order to trick you into viewing that link.

207 204:

You wound me, Kratos.

I wouldn't donate my son's diaper to the Donald.

208

First up, Wonkish Rogue, great comment.  Secondly:

"a giant web of conspiratorial kookery"

If I had any ability to blog, I would absolutely want that phrase to be my blog's title (or at least subtitle). 

209 See how different outcomes are between saying "of any given theory, theory 5 is most likely true it concludes Obama is born outside of the US" and "considering all theories, conclusion Obama born in US is most likely true"? Note that both of those statements are true.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 22, 2011 01:56 PM (0q2P7)

You have done a good job explaining the theoretical method of dealing with a lot of unknown or variable information. Now you should credit some of us with the ability to do that as well. I've thrown out all sorts of crap theories when I find a fact contradicting them. Theories I can't throw out remain on the table in order of probability. For example, my current triage of likely probabilities.

Born?

1. Vancouver Canada.

2. Seattle Washington.

3. Honolulu Hawaii.

His Father?

1. Frank Davis.

2. Barack Obama sr.

3. Unknown. 

Birth Certificate?

1. Affidavit of at Home birth.

2. Modified by Adoption.

3. Real and legitimate.

My point is, i'm not certain about anything, but I have my probabilities based on pieces of information that has been discovered. When information comes that refutes one possibility, I check it off the list.

210 @25: "Is the entire world somehow experiencing a mental meltdown, wherein logic and facts are displaced with emotion and feeling?

I fear so."

It's properly called The Endarkenment (as coined by Billy Beck).

211 Does it matter at all that Trig Palin is not running for president?

212

In short: Obama doesn't produce a birth certificate because he doesn't have a birth certificate, owing to the fact that he is not actually from the planet Earth but rather from some distant world in the far reaches of space, and it was this knowledge that led directly to the assassination of President Kennedy.  QED.

Posted by: MWR at April 22, 2011 02:15 PM (4df7R)

Your life may now be in danger, hopefully you've taken the proper precautions.

_{Now close those curtains and get away from the window!}

213 I'm sorry I sent $50 if good money to Chrisitine O'Donnell. I really thought the professional moocher could win.

Also sorry I sent $100 to FRED!.

Posted by: sifty at April 22, 2011 02:22 PM (+cmP9)

I'm not sorry I sent $50 to O'Donnell.  Since she'd already won the nomination at that point, there was nothing for it but to get behind her and offer her help to defeat the Democrat.

214 I've said this before: IT seems to be the bitterest arguments are always about the fundamentally unknowable, prognostications about the future, hidden mechanisms by which events are decided. I think maybe because that is all based on gut and worldview and experience and "feel" and so that stuff isn't just rational. Reason can easily be called wrong because reason is essentially impersonal. But when it's about the unknowable, in the dark spaces where it's all groping and guesswork, that involves something *central* to us, our gut, our intutition, our worldview and cherished assumptions. And to deny them IS personal. So in spats about whether Christine O'Donell is electable, for example, or whether Terri Schiavo can ever recover her conscious mind, that's all guesswork, and that involves the gut and spirt and not just the intellect (an impersonal thing, not really us: Just a mask we wear), and suddenly that stuff gets heated and ugly. I'm not saying this about "You" as in "irrational you." I mean me, too-- I find myself suddenly getting way too emotionally invested in arguments over unknowable future events. As if I have an actual personal stake in my ability to forecast the future. Why would I have a stake in that? Of course I can't predict the future. So why am I getting so FRUSTRATED and even ANGRY over something that, at its heart, I can't know and neither can you? So the theory I spun out, maybe wrong but I think maybe right, is that in those cases we are speaking of our elemental core and how in sync with "the real world" it is. So it's personal -- it's not an intellectual debate, but an argument over our personal value. Interesting? Or not? I think there's something to this.

215
What case was that? There are plenty of cases dealing with citizenship, good old fashion citizenship, but as far as I know, there is not a single case that has every decided the meaning of natural born citizenship in the context of Presidential qualification. Any case dealing with citizenship could not be used as precedent on a Presidential qualification contest, because the constitutional language is different.

Posted by: tommylotto at April 22, 2011 02:02 PM (oHIHU)

You are correct. In one major Supreme Court case, (Wong Kim Ark, I think.) They even ADMIT that they are NOT deciding Natural born citizenship.

216 Okay, so I read to #116 and no one has brought this new book up yet. link to
Daily Mail.


'Any nation will do': New book reveals Barack Obama wanted to be prime minister of Indonesia at tender age of 9
If you google A Singular Woman: The Untold Story of Barack Obama's Mother,   only 42 news stories come up.

217 >>>You're welcome, Ace! I would compose a poem and credit an imaginary poet to accompany any impossible-to-track down quote in order to trick you into viewing that link. Son of a bitch! You tried to rick-roll me?

218 Fred Thompson was a good example of the peaceful qualities of a good long rest.

219 I'm a big proponent of the Magic Cooter Theory^©  where all reason, logic, common sense, and fiscal responsibility break down at the "event horizon."

I like to cover all of my bases.

220 There is no conceivable way that Trig Trutherism is true, it's exceedingly unlikely that Birtherism, is true, however there are more than a few circumstances that would indicate why he wouldn't show his birth certificate. Meanwhile the reality
is gas is at 4 dollars a gallon, in some places, insurance companies are dropping
patients due to Obamacare, Saudi Arabia, is one rifle fusilade from a Shia rebellion,
and we're doing circle jerks over Benghazi, and our No. 1 banker is getting antsy
to lending us any more money,

221 It's the same reason you can't just go pick up a copy of anybody's birth, marriage, divorce, or death certificate from your local Vital Records depository without express consent or a direct familial connection (such as a child looking up their deceased parent's death certificate).

Posted by: MWR at April 22, 2011 02:20 PM (4df7R)

Pretty sure privacy laws only apply to Democrats. At least, that's been my experience.

222 I actually donated before she won the nomination. I was still high from the Scott Brown thing. Thought anything was possible. Backed all the dark horses. Dipshit, basically.

Angle might still get in there.

I'm hoping Reid eats a lot of salt and stands really close to the microwave.

Money spent on FRED! is never really wasted. I like to think maybe his wife Jeri stuffed my $100 in her bra and took it shopping for a thong or something nice like that.

223

Pretty sure privacy laws only apply to Democrats. At least, that's been my experience.

Posted by: Jack Ryan at April 22, 2011 02:39 PM (ri69A)

Too bad you didn't have those divorce records sealed-sealed

224 4. I was on the grassy knoll or knew someone who was.

You're falling into the trap I outlined above.

Grassy Knoll is only one "second shooter" theory, there are a bunch of others. Whereas, the only credible "single shooter" theory is the "Magic Bullet" theory. Given the knowns and unknowns associated with the Kennedy assassination, the aggregate of second shooter theories far outweighs the likelihood of the single shooter theory.

225 But since we're keeping track of apologies, all of a sudden, I have yet to have heard a single Christine O'Donnell supporter say to me, "Hey, I supported her and thought she could win, but I guess you were right about her being unelectable."
Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 02:09 PM (nj1bB)

Okay fine, on this subject I will point out something that is EXACTLY like the "birther" issue.

When you have your own SIDE BACKSTABBING YOU publicly and at every opportunity, it is a self fulfilling prophecy to keep saying "She Can't Win!" or "There's NOTHING to this issue." 

I am more pissed off at my own side over this than I am at Obama. I  EXPECT him to be a lying cocksucker. I don't expect to be constantly mocked and ridiculed by members of my own team, especially when all the information I can dig up indicates a High probability that I am RIGHT! 

Christine O'Donnell MIGHT have won had her side just shut up about how kooky she was. Sure, a LIEberal Republican would have had an easier time of it, but I find them worse than Democrats.

In the election of 2008, we had Colin Powell (supposedly a Republican) and Kathleen Parker (supposedly a conservative) and Peggy Noonan (Reagan's Speech writer) and Christopher Buckley, et al, ALL telling us how GREAT Barack Obama was. All I could think at the time was how incredibly stupid and dull witted otherwise intelligent people were behaving.

Subsequent events yielded the evidence that I was correct, and they were complete morons. This issue feels like "deja vu all over again" to me.

226 You know, the Civil War was a *bad thing* - not so interested in going through it again.
Posted by: blaster at April 22, 2011 02:14 PM (l5dj7)

Are you arguing that the alternative would have been better?

We can all say "let this cup pass before me" but sometimes people cannot or should not get out of doing the right thing, even when it causes a fight.

227 You tried to rick-roll me? A fate FAR worse than that. It rhymes with "Bamanda Zarcotte."

228

 the only credible "single shooter" theory is the "Magic Bullet" theory.

You can thank me at anytime.

229 So, is Trig Sarah Palin's kid or what?

230 When we gaze to the future, and wonder, Are we right, or just being sentimental? It is true in prediction we blunder, But we speak to our core elemental. Edgar Bryce Symington, "Ace Shrugged," 1822

231 I read it in the bible. It was in the old testament under "Stuff Leviticus Said". 

It was just after the paragraph that dealt with washing each other's junk and just before the chapter on longbows and the walls of Jerico.  It said;

Verily, it was born to a harlot a child in the island of Hawasseee (old aramaic for Hawaii). He shall be called a demon and a destroyer of wealth. He shall be shunned by the people who are called after a game token of gambling.  

232 The Illinois GOP is quite happy with the payments they receive for the status quo. Jack Ryan was a human sacrifice on the alter of Obama.

233 Imagine if Sandy Berger was not witnessed. DrewM: you crazy Pantsers. Do you know how ridiculous you sound? A former National Security Director stuffing top secret documents down his pants and in his socks? You guys kill me.

234

Too bad you didn't have those divorce records sealed-sealed

Posted by: Count de Monet at April 22, 2011 02:42 PM (XBM1t)

I don't like your cuffs.

235 For me the whole birther thing comes down to simple questions.

Fact: Obama's 2008 campaign spent millions suppressing records that could have either bought Obama some more cushion or been redirected to drag a couple more Democrats into Congress.

Question: Why?

Fact: Unlike other Presidents, we know almost nothing about Mr. Obama other than the Ayers penned fictionalized history in Dreams From My Father.  No college records, few writings, zilch.  Obama basically answers all requests with "Trust Me."

Question: Why should we believe him?  1) He is a politician and his lips are moving.  2) He is a third generation communist and lying to advance the faith is as much a part of their philosophy as taqqyia(sp) is for Muslims.  3) Obama has been repeatedly demonstrated to speak with a forked tongue on almost every issue.

Fact: If we accept the official origin story I can't see how he is eligible to be POTUS.  Born to a couple consisting of a British man and an underage American he would be British.  Then adopted to Indonesian.  Even if he later, after finishing his primary schooling in HI, took American citizenship it would make him a naturalized US citizen and eligible for every office short of POTUS but not that.  His admission records to college would be illuminating.

Question: Why is it racist to mention this?  Maybe there is solid case law on this but I haven't found it.  Somebody put me some real knowledge on here, K?

Fact: Since this controversy, believable or not, is real states passing 'birther' laws to clarify this situation should not be controversial.  Yet in every case so far the debates  are blatently partisan.

Question: Why?

Fact: The fear is now palpitable amongst large swaths of the left.  They attack with the sort of venom reserved for times when they KNOW they are in the wrong.

Question: Why?  Only two reasons possible, one an elaborate conspiracy theory where they are luring the stupid rethuglicans into a well laid trap and the other is to take their fear at face value.  Don't need Occam to bring a razor to settle this one.

236 average joe you dick. you're mocking me. How dare you take advantage of my lack of knowlege of poetry. you're the one making up poems-- you're the one who should feel foolish.

237 Can we get a new fucking post please?

238 Ugh, birth certificate always seemed like a red herring to me. People were seizing on it in 2008 and afterwards as a magical way to be rid of this Marxist bastid. Grow up people and hammer home the fact that the MarxSpewMedia refused to tell the public what was known about Odogma. His Rezco dealing with his house lot, dirty politics with Jack Ryan to get elected into the senate. Hell the MBM didn't even tell the world Barry smoked because they thought it was a negative in the election equation. The country wont have a real chance to recover from this marxist hole until we (well they --WE are here) stop letting the propagandizing media control what information they get.

239

I don't like your cuffs.

Posted by: Jack Ryan at April 22, 2011 02:49 PM (ri69A)

Gets me every time.  Must. Stop. Laughing.

240 >>>Christine O'Donnell MIGHT have won had her side just shut up about how kooky she was. right, right, I'm sure it wouldn't have occurred to them that she was a dumb bunny with no known occupation or accomplishment apart from saying silly things on talk shows. It was the people who tried to warn you about this who CAUSED it. If we'd just kept our mouths shut, the secret -- her 20 years of being an imbecile on tv -- would never have gotten out. Right, right, it was my fault for bringing it to your attention, not your fault for ignoring relevant data.

241

That makes my head hurt.

242 Sublog has one up about Krautman's crap article on the GOP field.

243 John Bolton: Why have you decided to withhold the vast majority of your life hisptry from public view? Medical records, birth ceritifcate, transcripts, published writings, personal associations, dinner parties with terrorists, etc?

Bongo:  huhuhuhuhuuhuh Didn't crazy old Donald Trump ask that question umm on umm The View?
uhuuhuhhhhhuuu
Boy that Donald, what an entertainer.

John Bolton: JUST ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION BEFORE I LEAP ACROSS THIS DESK AND BEAT THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF YOUR LYING ASS!

Michael Moore, Unbiased CBS Debate Moderator: Moving on...

244 If C. O'Donnell & Co. had won she would be the poster child of the MFM.
For crying out loud, we already have McCain!

245 you're the one making up poems-- you're the one who should feel foolish ALL poems are made-up -- should poets feel foolish?

246

Natural born in the Constitution actually refers to native born...jus solis -citizenship conferred by being born in that just-established political geography. This comes from the concepts of English natural law.There was no possibility for jus sanguinus (by blood) because there was no nation for anyone to have parents from.

It's a simple concept, but Diogenes cannot seem to grasp that.

Posted by: beedubya at April 22, 2011 02:16 PM (AnTyA)

The legal concept of jus solis is a precept of English law and is regarding SUBJECTS. The English also passed a law in the 1500s that said "The Children of English Fathers are themselves English Subjects."

What YOU are failing to grasp is that it is in the best interest of a Monarchy to cast as wide a net as possible for "Subjects" (servants) and that a "Subject" is NOT the same thing as a "Citizen." 

Notice that the Nobility utilized ONLY Jus Sanguinus to establish Noble  birth. Different rules for the Masters than for the Servants, doncha know?

The founders SPECIFICALLY broke with this aspect of English Law. (In Favor of Vatell's Jus Sanguinus (by right of blood) interpretation.) Indeed, the term "Citizen" was not in wide use in 1787, and it is the work of the founders that made the term popular.

Thomas Jefferson, When writing the Declaration of Independence  wrote "Citizens". It has recently been discovered (Through modern imaging techniques) that he had initially wrote the word "Subjects" but erased it in preference for the Newly favored word. 

You want to get into the Down and dirty about what the terms mean and where they come from? I'll certainly indulge you, and i'll be damned surprised if you can show me anything I haven't already seen. What's more, I'll be damned surprised if *I* CAN'T show you stuff you haven't seen.

247

UH, yea - what is the word out of Neveda with Ensign leaving. Who is getting the appointment?

Why shouldn't he? I'm telling you!

 

 

youtube link

248 OT:  Drudge has a video of a couple of black girls attacking and trying to kill a white girl at a McD.  She was on the ground and they were stomping on her head.   I bet Salon does not talk about THAT.  Neither will CNN.

249 Wait, we're back to COD? Oh yeah, were living in the past!

250 average joe, I was just kidding, because you suckered me with that fake poem. I think it was a clever trick. I'm just play-acting being mad about it.

251 One consequence of 'Birtherism' is that the fact is now becoming widely known that large amounts of money are being spent on legal fees to keep all documentation of Obama hidden from the public, creating suspicion and questions he obviously does not want to and so will not answer, which in turn creates more suspicion and questions, giving the anvils weight.

252
I have looked at it. It's all crap like 'Chester A. Arthur, when running against someone supposedly of dubious natural born status, advanced a theory that his opponent couldn't take office because you need two natural born parents to be natural born yourself" and etc.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 02:22 PM (nj1bB)


I have never used Chester A Arthur as an example. You must have me confused with someone else.

253 We can all say "let this cup pass before me" but sometimes people cannot or should not get out of doing the right thing, even when it causes a fight.
Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 02:47 PM (v2K2g)

We obviously don't agree on the birth certificate thing but that's well said in regard to the Civil War point.

254 It was the people who tried to warn you about this who CAUSED it. If we'd just kept our mouths shut, the secret -- her 20 years of being an imbecile on tv -- would never have gotten out.

Right, right, it was my fault for bringing it to your attention, not your fault for ignoring relevant data.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 02:53 PM (nj1bB)

It's about time you saw the light on this.

255

Whenever some liberal commie shitbag at work brings up global "climate change" I punch them in the junk.

True story.

256 Right, right, it was my fault for bringing it to your attention, not your fault for ignoring relevant data.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 02:53 PM (nj1bB)

Yeah ace, you're the smart one.  Classy too.  Must be that Duke & Duke fast track internship.

257 240 average joe you dick. you're mocking me. How dare you take advantage of my lack of knowlege of poetry.

you're the one making up poems-- you're the one who should feel foolish.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 02:50 PM (nj1bB)

Speaking of Poems, I found this the other day on Hot Air.

Two score and ten years ago his mother brought forth on some continent, a new Marxist, conceived in arrogance, delivered in secrecy, and dedicated to the proposition that all men shall be rendered equal.

Joe Mama on April 21, 2011 at 4:57 PM

I thought it was pretty good.

258 fuck the birth certificate, I want to see his college transcripts.

259
239  Fact: Unlike other Presidents, we know almost nothing about Mr. Obama other than the Ayers penned fictionalized history in Dreams From My Father.  No college records, few writings, zilch.  Obama basically answers all requests with "Trust Me."

Those are facts that are indisputable.

I will posit that it is what we have learned about "Obama" and his associates that should have every individual taxpayer outraged. While subjects such as his birth are argued, real malfeasance, both visible and carefully hidden, is shielding his cronies from regulations their competition needs to meet and ferreting billions of tax dollars into their companies and corporations.

260 Now I wonder if you are play-acting in seeming to believe that I was not bright enough to know you were play-acting. If not, I appreciate your regard for my feelings. And speaking of dicks, it's dick-in-son, not dick-en-son. Just think of what Barack Sr. did to Barack Jr.

261 Birth certificate? We need to shave his and look for numbers.

262  -oops-

We need to shave his head and look for numbers.

263
263 oooh, that's goood.

264
Question: Why?  Only two reasons possible, one an elaborate conspiracy theory where they are luring the stupid rethuglicans into a well laid trap and the other is to take their fear at face value.  Don't need Occam to bring a razor to settle this one.

Posted by: John Morris at April 22, 2011 02:50 PM (41hR3)

I agree. I argue with anti-birthers all the time. They are completely shrieking now. They continuously repeat lie after lie after lie. There is this guy that calls himself "rukiddingme" over at Hot Air. He admitted he has two adopted sons.

He absolutely refused to admit that their birth certificates had been altered!

Everywhere I go these people are stinking of desperation. The Media narrative is going against them, and i'm doing everything I can to kick them deeper into the pit of despair. 

They are genuinely AFRAID that the truth will come out and that it will be exactly what the birthers have been saying all along. "Their Guy is illegitimate!"

265

Here, O'Commie, here's my college transcript:  4.0 until I took that shitty "required" humanities class (Law & Literature, as if we hadn't all read To Kill A Mockingbird 10 times already in high school) and failed to report that Billy Budd was gay.  Fk Melville and Fk hippie lit professors.

/rant

266

Bluntly, it wasn't one group or one person or one event that caused her downfall. It was a series of bad luck, bad timing, bad strategy, bad comments, bad yada the yada the yada that did her in.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at April 22, 2011 02:50 PM (OWjjx)

Yup, but it wasn't OUR job to make things worse. Her State Republicans picked her, we should have supported their decisions, or at least shut up.

267

In order to get a SS card and a new driver's license at the DMV, you have to present legal documents, including a certified birth certificate with the stamp thingie felt from the back, or a current passport (mine had expired). I should know, as I have had to make several ding-bat trips to the DMV in one day this week. A photocopy of either birth certificate nor marriage license does not count. I am only guessing it is easier for foreigners to get a driver's license as they have to submit Homeland Security documents, and forging for that must be easier than the crap I just went through. I am fine with it being harder to get an ID, as long as they have to suffer as well as us legal peoples.

Long story not shortened, I have long maiden and married last name. Plus, to make me unique, I have always gone by my middle name. Our parents did this to all their children to complicate their lives from kindergarten on. No way you would hyphen my last name unless you were insane, and I wasn't until I went to the DMV three times in one day due to: not having the real marriage license (had photocopy and had to get the real one out of scrapbook), and not having a checkbook with me, as I always use credit card or cash. Normally I am pretty together, but that day I was waiting for lightening to strike. [Shortly after this trauma, as my new DL photo is horrid, I paid a visit to Ross and promptly caused a power surge in the store during payment with credit card. That same day, after this episode of patient, polite, and lady-like behavior on my part, my credit card number was stolen by some Alaskan terrorist].

Anyway, when I married I decided to drop my first name, which, if you yelled it during a crisis I would ignore you. So, my middle name became my legal signature and on my SS card (which I also just changed back to my long legal name so I could get a damn driver's license). Social Security required a certified copy of my birth certificate, which was in a lock box in a bank in another state. My mother mailed it to me last week. It has my birthdate, and yada yada including race and if I had a father and if my Mom was married (she was). No religion mentioned. It is signed by the doctor who delivered me as well as the head nurse or nurse manager of the department or hospital---it is in woman's handwriting, filling in the blanks like birth weight, county, etc. You can feel the stamp on the back, so that pleases everyone.

So, my theory is that he was a bastard (which we know is true), or it says he is Arab or white. He is pretending to be the son of an African, or his father never legally married his mom. Therefore he may not be a true African brotha ...who put him in office in Chicago with Trinity Church, and his buddies like Louis Freakahan and others would not approve. This would create both a Constitutional crisis and civil war, therefore we have to put his butt to the curb in November 2012 with votes. He is hiding something, or he would post the real certified certificate, forged or not.  The only reason he must be hiding his school records is either his grades sucked or he had foreign aid (see: Constitutional crisis due to dual passports). Why he won't permit his health record to be made public must be due to the flatworm or worse. The end.

268 And yes, this is exactly what happened with Birtherism, too. The original premise that started this whole rumor was that Obama's Certificate of Live Birth lacked the traits of a real COLB -- it lacked a serial number, it lacked a signature and/or stamp and/or watermark.

This is false. The questions about Obama's birthplace preceded the COLB. The whole reason the COLB was released was a futile attempt to end the speculation (without actually releasing the birth certificate). Is Reagan's birth certificate available? How about FDR's? I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if the answer to both of those questions was no, since the question never arose during their runs for president.

Although, now that I think of it, it wouldn't surprise me if RR's & FDR's documents are located with their papers at their presidential librarys. The same will not be true of Obama's.

269

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 02:58 PM (v2K2g)

Ummm...Skippy?? I hate to be the one to point out the obvious to you, but we do not have a class of subjects and citizens.

We don't need a pool of nobles from which the royal family (which I think needs to be pointed out to you..WE DON'T HAVE) can find suitable mates for their scion outside their own gene pool

270 right, right, I'm sure it wouldn't have occurred to them that she was a dumb bunny with no known occupation or accomplishment apart from saying silly things on talk shows.

It was the people who tried to warn you about this who CAUSED it. If we'd just kept our mouths shut, the secret -- her 20 years of being an imbecile on tv -- would never have gotten out.

Right, right, it was my fault for bringing it to your attention, not your fault for ignoring relevant data.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 02:53 PM (nj1bB)

The time to address that was BEFORE she was selected. After she was selected it only helped her lose.

So she was a nut. Obviously we couldn't have one of THOSE in Washington.

271

I'll bet the rent his college records contain his application for aid as a foreign student.

Prove. Me. Wrong.

272 Maybe he's the Anti-Christ, born of a jackal, in which case we may need to go to some other State of Hawaii records department for documentation.

273 257 One consequence of 'Birtherism' is that the fact is now becoming widely known that large amounts of money are being spent on legal fees to keep all documentation of Obama hidden from the public, creating suspicion and questions he obviously does not want to and so will not answer, which in turn creates more suspicion and questions, giving the anvils weight.

Posted by: davidt at April 22, 2011 03:02 PM (u8VNX)

It NEVER had a down side. One reason the liberals are so worried about birtherism is because it's one of their own tactics being used against them.

The Chant of "Illegitimate" will always gain traction if the country is losing prosperity.

274 I decided to drop my first name, which, if you yelled it during a crisis, I would ignore you.
Mulva?

275 Fk hippie lit professors

I had a lit professor who disliked me until she had us reading Melville aloud and I spoke my part like a pirate. It was all A's, post pirate.
Her Volvo wagon was her filing system and I swear she had 1000lbs of paper in the back.

276 259 We can all say "let this cup pass before me" but sometimes people cannot or should not get out of doing the right thing, even when it causes a fight.
Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 02:47 PM (v2K2g)

We obviously don't agree on the birth certificate thing but that's well said in regard to the Civil War point.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 22, 2011 03:03 PM (plesI)

Hat tip.

277 268  -oops-

We need to shave his head and look for numbers.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 22, 2011 03:11 PM (GC5/b)

You DID see that scar on the right side of his head?

278

Thomas Jefferson, When writing the Declaration of Independence  wrote "Citizens". It has recently been discovered (Through modern imaging techniques) that he had initially wrote the word "Subjects" but erased it in preference for the Newly favored word. 

Which means he had no intention of creating a 3rd class of citizens...right?

279 Saw an interesting view of the issue:  Some folks desperately hope O was born overseas, because if he was born here, the US-destroying influence is born here,  as well.

280 Saudi Arabia, is one rifle fusilade from a Shia rebellion,

You say that like it would be a bad thing. 

281 P.S. I did not make clear, in my long short-story of the DMV...this was for a DL renewal, in a state where I have lived for over 25 years, and from a home address that I have had for 17 years, with the same name. I can only imagine if I were applying for a brand new license I would have to promise my first born son. As it was, I swore, upon perjury, that I was telling the truth and mentally stable. I wanted to joke that I wasn't at that moment in time (mentally stable) but figured I'd better not chance it given the crappy day I'd had.

282

Ummm...Skippy?? I hate to be the one to point out the obvious to you, but we do not have a class of subjects and citizens.

We don't need a pool of nobles from which the royal family (which I think needs to be pointed out to you..WE DON'T HAVE) can find suitable mates for their scion outside their own gene pool

Posted by: beedubya at April 22, 2011 03:16 PM (AnTyA)

Okay, we are either having a communications problem or you are an idiot. I'm going to be nice and say I must not have worded something plainly enough and so it's my fault.

The fact that we do not have SUBJECTS was exactly my point. When we broke with English law on SUBJECTS, we  didn't apply their rules to  CITIZENS.

I will point out to you that neither slaves nor Indians acquired citizenship through the application of Jus Soli.

283 Iran has been drooling over those Saudi oil fields for a long, long time.

284 284

Thomas Jefferson, When writing the Declaration of Independence  wrote "Citizens". It has recently been discovered (Through modern imaging techniques) that he had initially wrote the word "Subjects" but erased it in preference for the Newly favored word. 

Which means he had no intention of creating a 3rd class of citizens...right?

Posted by: beedubya at April 22, 2011 03:23 PM (AnTyA)

Furthest thing from his mind. What is your point.

285 Did Jefferson have to show his birth certificate?
I understand his mother and father were British citizens!

286 My question:

How the hell did he pas the SS background check?!  No way in hell he passed that.

287

His birth place doesn't matter to me unless it's absolutely proven that he's not natural born.  What I have a problem with is that he didn't grow up as an American.  He grew up as an Indonesian under the tutorial heavy hand of shreiking, bitter card-carrying communist parents. 

I would like to see his college transcripts and application paperwork.

288 291 Did Jefferson have to show his birth certificate?
I understand his mother and father were British citizens!

Posted by: Beto at April 22, 2011 03:35 PM (H+LJc)

Citizens of the Colonies became American Citizens upon the Declaration of Independence. The US Constitution specifically EXEMPTs them from the "Natural Born" Requirement.

289

And, of course, you will be repeating these lines if a Romney, or Pawlenty, or whoever the currently most loathed RINO is (personally, I think it is me) gets the GOP noimination in 2012?

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at April 22, 2011 03:36 PM (OWjjx)

If I know what's good for me.

290 Sorrry, I forgot the </sarc>

291 293 My question: How the hell did he pas the SS background check?! No way in hell he passed that.
______

As ol' Wossname, the former FBI dude who wrote a book about the Clinton presidency, noted: the president is presumed cleared.

292 My take on the birther issue. Not perfect, because I'm obviously kind of a simpleton:

City, USA holds tryouts for firemen.

Four applicants show up. Each is roughly the same age, build, and fitness.

Four firemen judges are set to observe the test.

The boss tell the applicants to each grab a ladder, lean it against the wall, and climb to the top. Simple.

Three applicants each grab a ladder, lean it against the wall and climb to the top. One two three.

Applicant four just stands there.

Boss asks why.

Applicant 4 tells the boss and the judges that he can climb the ladder.

Boss and judges ask why he does not just do it then?

Applicant 4 says he just doesn't feel like it.

Here is the problem:
The Boss and the judges then get together and decide that Applicant 4 PROBABLY CAN lift the ladder, move the ladder, and climb the ladder. So he really doesn't need to demonstrate it the same way the others did. Because he doesn't feel like doing it.

So he is allowed to not only continue his application, he is eventually made Fire Chief.

I think it is perfectly normal for people to be pissed that a special case is made for one person when everyone else played by the rules.

293

And, of course, you will be repeating these lines if a Romney, or Pawlenty, or whoever the currently most loathed RINO is (personally, I think it is me) gets the GOP noimination in 2012?

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at April 22, 2011 03:36 PM (OWjjx)

Butting in here, but every die-hard conservative I know (self included) has said repeatedly that they will vote for whoever the Repub is that runs against Obama.  That doesn't mean Romney or Gingrich or *shudder* Fuckabee will get my vote in the primaries.  Hell no.  But once a majority has chosen a candidate, i will absolutely vote for that person.  And I will absolutely be on their ass if and when they win the Presidency to make sure they remember to keep the promises they made on the campaign trail.

294 I'll vote for whoever gets the GOP nomination. The commies want us to sit it out, that's why they chose McCain for us last time.

295

IÂ’m not going to rag on Ace because Average Joe has done a masterful job of laying out what my feelings on the birther issue are.

 

However, IÂ’d like to throw one more item into the conspiracy mix.  Obama was born in 1961.  There might not be too many here that remember how things were in Â’61, but even as young as I was, I can remember that white girls giving birth to black babies was a reasonably rare occurrence.

 

Even in Hawaii, where the natives hate whites almost as much as blacks, such an event would have lit up the dials on pink Princess phones from one end of the island to another.  At the very least, everyone in the hospital would have known within a few hours.  My question is, where are some of those people?

 

You would think there would be at least some admitting nurse, janitor, aide or someone saying “I remember that day like it was yesterday!  Not only was the baby black, but the girlÂ’s mother was a big shot at the local bank.” 

 

On second thought, I will rag on Ace a bit.  The technique the left is using now on birthers was perfected by Carville and Begalla in the Clinton years.  Disproportionate conflation is the art of taking tagging one easily-proven-false factor onto a reasonable (and probably true) assumption in order to discredit the entire assumption.  Another tactic is the “throwing a bone”.  Have your forces magnanimously give up something equally or more stupid (Trig trutherism) in the hope that the enemy will give up on the much more likely assumption.

296 He's there. Not a damn thing we can do about it now. But we can move forward and figure out how the hell to get him out.

Indeed, the question is moot.  If there wasn't a valid LFBC before, there is one now, unless the CIA document division has completely atrophied.

297

How the hell did he pas the SS background check?!  No way in hell he passed that.

The background check was conducted on Election Night, 2008 and 52% of voting public passed him.

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at April 22, 2011 03:46 PM (OWjjx)

Democracy is a Fatally flawed system. That was the opinion of the Founders, and I dare say they haven't been wrong about much.

298

On second thought, I will rag on Ace a bit.  The technique the left is using now on birthers was perfected by Carville and Begalla in the Clinton years.  Disproportionate conflation is the art of taking tagging one easily-proven-false factor onto a reasonable (and probably true) assumption in order to discredit the entire assumption.  Another tactic is the “throwing a bone”.  Have your forces magnanimously give up something equally or more stupid (Trig trutherism) in the hope that the enemy will give up on the much more likely assumption.

Posted by: jwest at April 22, 2011 03:57 PM (qeYI9)

You make a very good point, but alas, it is pointless.  

299 Have your forces magnanimously give up something equally or more stupid (Trig trutherism) in the hope that the enemy will give up on the much more likely assumption. It's hard to say what the left's strategy is. It depends on what they really believe the facts to be: (1) Some leftists believe birtherism and Trigerism are equally crazy. They point out that Trigerism is a "fringe" theory on they left by that birtherism is widespread on the right. (2) Some leftists believe that birtherism has merit but Trigerism is crazy. They equate the two to marginalize what they see is a real birther threat. (3) Some leftists believe that Trigerism has merit but birtherism is crazy. "They" are Andrew Sullivan. And a handful of blog commenters elsewhere. Although Sullivan was actually a birther for a day back in 2009, until he got a call from the White House. (4) Some leftists believe that both birtherism and Trigerism have merit. Or maybe not. Can't think of any off-hand.

300 Should have been "Trigerism is a "fringe" theory on the left but that birtherism is widespread on the right" in no. 1 above.

301
How wrong Emily Dickinson was! Hope is not "the thing with feathers". The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew. I must take him to a specialist in Zurich.

302 308 Should have been "Trigerism is a "fringe" theory on the left but that birtherism is widespread on the right" in no. 1 above.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 22, 2011 04:34 PM (bN5ZU)

You have made excellent points in a clear thinking and easily followed manner. Well written and well thought out.

JMHO

303

 I am more pissed off at my own side over this than I am at Obama.

Of course you are.  Your kind is ALWAYS more willing to eat your own than you are to really take down libs like Obama.  You don't even appreciate the irony.

Christine O'Donnell MIGHT have won had her side just shut up about how kooky she was.

Bullshit.  She ran as a hardline conservative, in Delaware, a state that is deep, deep blue (not red or purple).  She was never going to win, which is something even the non-deranged "true cons" actually admitted (they knew they were throwing away that seat, they merely wanted to send an inane "message" to the "Establishment RINOs").  You continue to act as if she would have made up a a SEVENTEEN point loss if only that dastardly Karl Rove hadn't said mean things about her.

Subsequent events yielded the evidence that I was correct, and they were complete morons. This issue feels like "deja vu all over again" to me.

Correct about COD?  Oh, this should be rich.  By all means explain.

 

304

I'm confused.

Just what is your premise here, ace?

305

Okay, we are either having a communications problem or you are an idiot. I'm going to be nice and say I must not have worded something plainly enough and so it's my fault.

Better check yourself, son. Insults don't make arguments.

The fact that we do not have SUBJECTS was exactly my point. When we broke with English law on SUBJECTS, we  didn't apply their rules to  CITIZENS.

Are you saying that there were or were not subjects??

I will point out to you that neither slaves nor Indians acquired citizenship through the application of Jus Soli.

Nor did many other classes of people. So that statement is pointless.

Only white male landowners had full rights. What  were the others then if not full citizens??

So following your illogic, today only white landowning males over the age of 35 who were born on US soil to citizen parents would qualify for the presidency???

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 03:29 PM (v2K2g)

At that time, only white land owning males over the age of 21 were considered full citizens. That is the pool from which a president could be elected. Article II says that natural (read native) born..or other citizens could be president.

Any idea if there were other candidates in the first presidential election who were not native born??? I'll make it easy on you. There were.

306 Something here smells, at best, like burning rubber. There are good reasons to suspect that our snotty Phony-Baloney, Plastic-Banana-Boy was born in Kenya, among them his fake Social Security and Selective Service Registration Numbers. The Constitutional issue here is fundamental and entirely legitimate.  Dismissing citizens like me who demand an honest, straight-forward answer to Comrade Zero's eligibility for office as "conspiracy theorists" is just another leftard tactic to perpetuate this historic fraud.

If Obozo's COLB is, in fact, complete and authentic, front and back (laugh out loud), then where is it? Why can't the lib-gov of Hawaii put his slimy fingers on it? Why has this issue dragged on for three entire years, and why has the Chief Clown spend $2-million of political campaign contributions, illegally of course, if he could  resolve it so easily?

Even if Obozo was "native born," he grew up a citizen of Indonesia and there is no record that he was ever re-naturalized as an American citizen. He has sequestered his immigration files, obviously to hide them from the American people. We don't have to be conspiracy theorists to ask why.

One other point.  Howcum this Chicago thug gets a pass on all this? Is Obozo above the law? Has the United States really come to this, that people are so dazzled by skin the color of puppy-poo that they can no longer draw rational conclusions from obvious facts?

307 We need a Black president. 

308

Correct about COD?  Oh, this should be rich.  By all means explain.

Posted by: Vyceroy at April 22, 2011 04:46 PM (mqy6N)

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem to go with your A.D.D.

I was referring to those "Republicans" that supported Obama in the 2008 election. 

The only reason i'm responding to you at all is to get that little dig in. Given your tone, I don't see any point in trying to reason with you.

309 >>>I think it is perfectly normal for people to be pissed that a special case is made for one person when everyone else played by the rules. You are making the government hygeine/orderly rules and processes argument for why he should release his birth certificate -- and even be compelled to. I have no disagreement with that. Even if I don't believe Obama is foreign born I cannot discount the possibility this situation will come up in the future-- so yes, I agree, for the sake of hygiene/housekeeping our rules about this should be fair, transparent, and determinative. It should not be vague. Even if I accept Obama as an American born I sure don't want a sneaky pretender getting in later. I have no dispute with that. But, if you ask me where he was born? Hawaii. Two newspapers printed birth announcements and he has a COLB from the state. Newspaper announcements, I'm told, are not sent in by the parents but by the hospital. So, to me, kind of case closed. However, I see no harm in making sure. Just because I think I turned the oven off is no strong reason not to check the dial and make sure. Prudence and hygiene are never bad things.

310 313

The fact that we do not have SUBJECTS was exactly my point. When we broke with English law on SUBJECTS, we  didn't apply their rules to  CITIZENS.

Are you saying that there were or were not subjects??

You do realize that's a confusing question. I'll do my best to figure out what you are asking.
The Founders WERE "Natural Born" British SUBJECTS. They became American "Citizens" on July 4, 1776.  All hence born to these people became "Natural Born" American Citizens.

311

I will point out to you that neither slaves nor Indians acquired citizenship through the application of Jus Soli.

Nor did many other classes of people. So that statement is pointless.

Pardon me if i'm a little dense. What other class of people were there?

312 >>>The time to address that was BEFORE she was selected. After she was selected it only helped her lose. I did shut up about it when she was chosen and so did most. What I've tended to find since then is that it's the CO'D people who seem to be still demanding apologies instead of offering mea culpas.

313 stuiec:
It's not "Ivyism" to want to see his actual college transcripts.

No.  And banging on that drum would have been a far more productive use of the birthers' time.

Tami:
If you act secretively, it is not crazy to imagine you have secrets.

I'm sure Obama has many secrets, mostly stemming from his time in Chicago.

He's a corrupt guy who quickly rose to the top in a notoriously corrupt political environment.  His closet is full of skeletons, and if birthers were rational and wanted to actually be useful, that's the sort of thing they'd look into.

314

Only white male landowners had full rights. What  were the others then if not full citizens??

Are you making an issue out of the existing zeitgeist? In those days they considered it to be the natural order and they thought nothing of Males having more rights than anyone else, just as today we don't think about Children not having the right to consent, vote or drink.

The Children are "full citizens" yet they don't possess the same rights as Adults.  In those days it was women. What of it?

315

So following your illogic, today only white landowning males over the age of 35 who were born on US soil to citizen parents would qualify for the presidency???

You are speaking of your own thinking. I have said no such thing. Slaves were granted citizenship in 1868, and Women were given the right to vote in 1920. They were given additional rights by Statute and by the court. I forget when the "Landholding" requirement was rescinded, but I know that it was.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 03:29 PM (v2K2g)

At that time, only white land owning males over the age of 21 were considered full citizens. That is the pool from which a president could be elected. Article II says that natural (read native) born..or other citizens could be president.

Any idea if there were other candidates in the first presidential election who were not native born??? I'll make it easy on you. There were.

316

Forgot to delete that last part for this next message. My bad.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at April 22, 2011 03:29 PM (v2K2g)

At that time, only white land owning males over the age of 21 were considered full citizens. 

They were ALL considered "full citizens". But they were not all considered to have the same rights.

That is the pool from which a president could be elected. Article II says that natural (read native) born..or other citizens could be president.

You can tell me to read it that way, but it doesn't mean the same thing as being born on the soil. And yeah, the office of President had restrictions. 34 year olds and below didn't qualify. Neither did people born of Foreign Fathers.

Any idea if there were other candidates in the first presidential election who were not native born??? I'll make it easy on you. There were.

Any idea on your part that Article II specifically exempts the "Natural Born Citizen" requirement from those present at the founding?

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; "

This little bit of discussion with you leads me to believe you're not even close to being up to speed enough to discuss this issue with me. If it were easier to post links on Ace of Spades, i'd post about a dozen just to get you started. (All links to old documents.)

I'll try to post one. Read the thread at this link.

Link.

317 Even if Obozo was "native born," he grew up a citizen of Indonesia and there is no record that he was ever re-naturalized as an American citizen. He has sequestered his immigration files, obviously to hide them from the American people. We don't have to be conspiracy theorists to ask why.

Posted by: Tulsa Jack at April 22, 2011 04:54 PM (w0BJ+)

A pretty bulletproof aspect of American Citizenship law is that a Minor cannot relinquish it, nor can his parents relinquish it for him.  The only way for someone who possesses American Citizenship to relinquish it is by committing an "Affirmative Act." They basically have to SAY (in front of witnesses, and Sign a Document) that they wish to give up their American Citizenship. Barring that, you cannot get rid of it.

318
Newspaper announcements, I'm told, are not sent in by the parents but by the hospital.

So, to me, kind of case closed.

However, I see no harm in making sure. Just because I think I turned the oven off is no strong reason not to check the dial and make sure.

Prudence and hygiene are never bad things.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 05:14 PM (nj1bB)

Not that you'll listen, but you are correct that the Newspaper announcements are generated Automatically by the filing of a birth record.

No one is disputing that he has a birth RECORD. I think he has an "At home Birth" affidavit signed by his Grandmother. I think Stanley Ann was in the vicinity of Mercer Island Washington when Barack was born.

319
I did shut up about it when she was chosen and so did most. What I've tended to find since then is that it's the CO'D people who seem to be still demanding apologies instead of offering mea culpas.

Posted by: ace at April 22, 2011 05:18 PM (nj1bB)

Well, for what it's worth, she was a lousy candidate. I've never been a big Christine O'Donell fan because she IS a flake. The problem was that the hardcore politics junkies are the ones that show up in primaries. They OFTEN pick candidates too far out for the regular public.

320
He's a corrupt guy who quickly rose to the top in a notoriously corrupt political environment.  His closet is full of skeletons, and if birthers were rational and wanted to actually be useful, that's the sort of thing they'd look into.

Posted by: sandy burger at April 22, 2011 05:19 PM (MT+0i)

Except for the fact that there is evidence that something is seriously wrong with his birth certificate. He even admits it in his book. Look here. (From Jack Cashill's Article on American Thinker.)

"On the occasion of his father's death in 1982, lawyers contacted anyone who might have claim to the estate.  "Unlike my mum," Obama tells his half-sister Auma in Dreams, "Ruth has all the documents needed to prove who Mark's father was." "

Wouldn't his birth certificate be a document to prove who his father was?

321 Two score and ten years ago his mother brought forth on some continent, a new Marxist, conceived in arrogance, delivered in secrecy, and dedicated to the proposition that all men shall be rendered equal.

Joe Mama on April 21, 2011 at 4:57 PM

322 We say conspiracy theories are irrational because they do not observe the rules of rational, reasonable, fair deduction and inference.

They treat weak inference as strong inference, for one thing.

323

Are you making an issue out of the existing zeitgeist? In those days they considered it to be the natural order and they thought nothing of Males having more rights than anyone else, just as today we don't think about Children not having the right to consent, vote or drink.

The Children are "full citizens" yet they don't possess the same rights as Adults.  In those days it was women. What of it?

I hate to be Mr. Obvious again...but even back in those days children eventually became adults. Women stayed being women. ..

This little bit of discussion with you leads me to believe you're not even close to being up to speed enough to discuss this issue with me.

Again...throwing out insults (or lame attempts thereof) doesn't cover for muddled thinking. Jeez...just call me poopyhead, why don't you.

They were ALL considered "full citizens". But they were not all considered to have the same rights.

OK...you really lost me there. If a person doesn't have the rights of others...how are they then full citizens?. (leaving out of course minor children)

Any idea on your part that Article II specifically exempts the "Natural Born Citizen" requirement from those present at the founding?

Actually, it allows non-native-born to be president. It just allowed for allegiance rather than jus sanguinus. Again...that should be an easy concept to grasp.

324 What's worse? Fake pregnancy or fake citizenship?

325 This again? I thought we came to the conclusion that he has to show all his documents, which makes us documenters, not birthers. If he doesn't have a BC, one will be "provided" for him. The Trig trutherism isn't a conspiracy theory or a mockery of documenters, it's a way to accuse Todd Palin of incest with his own daughter. These people are disgusting, and I will relish their tears when their standard-bearer is forcefully removed from office, probably after prying letters off the computer keyboards, as Clinton did.

326 You're right; I'm not convinced.  Birtherism is, however, broader than the simple question as to whether Obama was born in the U.S.  Notwithstanding his Kenyan grandmother's reported statement that she was present at his birth in Kenya, Obama's suppression of any information about his birth and other factors, e.g., how did he travel to Pakistan in the early 1980's when Americans were not permitted to go there (and did he have another country's passport, such as Indonesia's), raise significant questions.  I am willing to believe that Obama was born in Hawaii, but suspect that the information he has suppressed has some pertinence to either his eligibility for the presidency or that it would, if disclosed, have had (and may yet have) relevance for his electability.  Suppose, hypothetically, that some of his secret information conflicted in some basic fashion with the information in his two "autobiographies," even if one of them was actually a pseudo-autobiography written by Bill Ayers.  What might the electorate do if faced with the reality of outright lies by the President?

As a psychiatrist, I know that paranoid delusions are irrefutable to the believer.  The question, though, is when the point of actual paranoia is reached.