1 I'm betting on "or".

2 Fixing SS is just another way of saying Saving Socialism. SS and Medicare will crush the USA and nothing can stop it.

3 Hey Stalin, I just won the 2nd Battle of Kiev.  It's over, we won.  I kin haz oil now?

4 I am in a particularly ANGRY mood today because YOU KNUCKLEHEADS got Keithies fired!!

5 "we can still kill and must kill health care before it's too late" I approve the new rhetoric.

6

When you allow your opponent to limit the debate, you will loose.

The Repbulican hierarchy would not want to debate this, as it would limit the size of Govenrment, and thus their own control when they are in power.

We once more need to have a debate on the fundamental question of what Government is, and what power WE the People, wish it to have... because like an out of control Bush, if it is not pruned back upon occasion, it just takes over the whole backyard...

Yet that is a Debate the Republicans do not wish to have... TEA Partiers, take note.

7

Drew used the word "kill" at the end.  Is that allowed for conservatives?

Dana Millimush used violent termilogy in his column Sunday in the Washington Compost, so we know the rule does not apply to them.

8

Once this "insurance for all" BS sets in, people will see soon enough how impossible it is to make the system work.  The doctors offices (what few are left) will be chock full all day every day, full of bored welfare queens and their snot nosed brats.  The system will be so quickly and totally overwhelmed that it will break down.  It'll be like the emergency rooms already are - people know the ER is required to help them, so that's where they go - no matter what the normal and proper venue would be for their health issue.  Unless you're head is about to fall off, or you're having a heart attack, you can expect to cool your heels in the ER waiting area for a good long while even as it is.  Once people think it's all free - it'll be a disaster.

A microcosm can be seen in the Dominican Republic.  During a recent visit there I was chatting with a fellow who uses their system quite often due to some serious health issues.  Once the government decided to extend "health insurance" to all government workers, suddenly the doc offices were slammed.  The ladies from the town would meet there for social hour with the pretext of getting little junior examined, or to complain about some petty ache.  People with real problems, who got treatment pretty quicky in the recent past, suddenly found themselves facing long waits, and prices that had tripled.  

9 "The seniors think they paid for" is exactly right.

Those same seniors demanded a 50 year spending binge, paid for with those SS funds, instead of accepting higher taxes to pay for that spending binge while preserving the SS/Medicare system.

And now they expect this generation to cover their financial  incontinence.

10 .. and we destroyed your Pacific Freet.
Get over it Rusers!

11

Ronald Reagan: “f you don’t [stop Medicare] and I don’t do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free.” [1961]

Here, the Left makes our argument, not theirs. The point of these examples, of course, is to show the Right cryng wolf at the emergence of every new government program.

But what it really shows is: Damn, the Left never stops. They got Medicare, Social Security, Welfare, Medicaid, Medicare Prescriptions, on and on and they never stop. If the Left's argument for each new program is that it is needed to fill a void, then it must be so that with each new program the void becomes smaller. But, with them, it never does. Their calls grow louder.

Yes, they sense that victory is inevitable. As long as each generation is more dependent on government than the last, they inch closer to victory. Demographic changes and voter trends only feed their confidence.

The best hope for nonliberals is to bring the debate into the open with clarity: Do we want a Socialist Democracy or not? No need for hyperbole. Break down the debate to its essence and have at it. The Left benefits when this debate is couched in narrow terms.

12 Good work keeping up your unparalleled streak of incoherent non-sequiturs, eggamoobymuffin. The big leagues will be phoning any time now.

13

We can argue the politics lterally forever.

Math however, does not wait.

14 From the sounds of it, the Repub House is going to slash and burn lots of lib favorites but not entitlements.  When the libs whine, the Repubs are going to say it's an either/or proposition and put the ball back in the dems' court.

15 We may have to live with only trying to fix liberal fiscal messes like Social Security and Medicare They cannot be fixed; they are broken in principle, in their basic design. Trying to "fix" them will only throw a lot of good money after bad. If we were being led by adults rather than children, this simple point would have been made long ago. If the GOP cannot muster the will to abolish these programs, then we might as well fold our tents: failure to abolish these programs and replace them with something more sustainable is a sure and certain death sentence for this Republic. I don't have to link to the numbers and charts because we've all seen them ad nauseam. This issue cannot be "triangulated" or massaged away. It's a Gordian Knot -- you either cut right through it, or forget about it and go enjoy whatever time we have left before the hammer falls. And if American citizens either cannot or will not accept the abolition of these programs as a prerequisite for the continued health of the Republic...well, two hundred years is about the average lifespan of a democracy, so we've already beaten the odds. Maybe the Indians will manage to figure out that money doesn't grow on fucking trees.

16

Of course in the end conservatives will 'win' one way or another. Either we get to do what has to be done or to paraphrase Margret Thatcher, we'll just run out of other people's money and kill them that way.

We'll always have the self-satisfaction of knowing we're right.  But that's kind of soured when you're oppressed and striken with poverty.

17 OT On the story in the sidebar.I'm not aware of anyone getting to that wreck before we destroyed or retrieved it.In any case,that was first generation stealth.Already supeseded.

18 Only a fucking stupid knucklehead would say that Social Security is in danger. Of course, Social Security is not in any danger.

19 Hey Stalin, I just won the 2nd Battle of Kiev.  It's over, we won.  I kin haz oil now?

Posted by: Adolph Hitler at January 24, 2011 11:13 AM (o2QOm)

Alas, in this case it's probably closer to being the Left's version of D-Day.  The Right is in retreat.  No matter that our side is correct - the leaches are getting their way no matter what.  We just won a majestic victory, but already some of the Reps are getting limp-wristed - which suggests to me that they're going back to their normal loser mentality.  From here on out I fear that we're just fighting a valiant delaying action - holding back the inevitable as long as we can.  Hopefully we will be able to rebuild from the ash once it all comes down. 

20 Not part of my core of curriculum, IYKWIM.

21 It's not a question of "if" entitlements will be cut. It's when entitlements will be cut and under what conditions. Entitlements make up %56 of the federal budget and borrowing makes up %43? There is no budget at all if entitlements aren't cut.

22 erg loughner is out on bail and yammering like a fucking dunce about how great and well funded social security is?  WTF is going on.

23 22 FDR's grandson was on with Cavuto saying the same thing awhile back.Coincidence?

24 Beck just said that some major news organization is treating the SOTU freeforall sitdown as a prom?

Geez I get up for a minute and he says stuff like this and I miss the whole context of whether or not it was a joke or real.

25 Fact is there is not enough money to be taxed away to fund the grandiose dreams of the Left.  Politics may make it a truth that cannot be spoken, but demographics and economics make it a bedrock truth nonetheless.

26 It's not a question of "if" entitlements will be cut. It's when entitlements will be cut and under what conditions. Entitlements make up %56 of the federal budget and borrowing makes up %43? There is no budget at all if entitlements aren't cut.

Posted by: DFCtomm at January 24, 2011 11:26 AM (oSxEz)

Good point.  My bet is that inflating them away is a core component of how this will be played out.  But once that creates a big fat mess, things will get really interesting.  Especially since it's not like the seniors can just go back to work.  No jobs.  Plus we let all the lower level jobs get filled by illegals and take almost no steps to end that practice. 

I assume granny will find herself moving back in with the kids.

27 I think there's some truth to this. The idea of doing away with Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare is simply a fringe position at this point in time.

Nothing to say about this, really, except that this phrase bugs the living shit out of me.  At this point or at this time, not both.  It's redundant.  I blame John Dean.

28 Entitlements will not be cut in any meaningful way. It is observationally true that the argument about the government providing or not providing such things as medical care, retirement funds, and so forth, is over. They are all just haggling over the details of what and how much, the argument of whether to provide social services is lost. I wish them well in reversing this, but don't hold out any hope that they can or will.

29

The U.S. Constitution is an old, old document that needs to be updated on a regular basis.

Social Security? This Depression Era program is perfect and sacrosanct. Don't think of changing it.

Makes sense to me.

30 Posted by: Monty at January 24, 2011 11:22 AM (4Pleu)

"Fix" has a pretty big meaning. Ryan's plan for example is a 'fix' even though it basically sunsets the old programs and creates new ones moving forward based on age.

What I'm saying is there's no political way to go cold turkey/massively cut SS or Medicare for current or near term recipients. If you put it to a vote, you'd lose simply because old people vote. They would take their chances that they'll be dead before the shit hits the fan.

31 22 & 23

The Left will deny Reality until their last breath.  They have existed since FDR on a policy of buying their support, and it's all they know.  They'd prefer to buy that support until doomsday rather than surrender a single shred of what they've bought with stolen money.

32

I assume granny will find herself moving back in with the kids.

Posted by: Reactionary at January 24, 2011 11:30 AM (xUM1Q)

Which is precisely why everyone says "let them have their social security but, we don't expect to get ours so design a different plan for us or give us the sole responsibility"

We know the system can't work for us but are willing to keep paying in for them.  "No one wants the responsibility for their parents dropped on them when they are each working two jobs and worrying about who has the kids" said one of my friends who loves her parents but know her familial limits.

33 I have often wondered about people like Ezra Klien. Are they as deluded as they sound or are they insane?

As for fixing SS I hope everyone knows where over 50% of the money that is being paid out in that program is going now and it isn't paying for "baby-boomer" retirement. It is going into the massive and fraudulent "disability" program. All it takes is to have your children classified by some quack doctor as "learning disabled" or some other BS item and you qualify for partial disability payments.

There is an entire industry built up on that in some of the inner city areas where enforcement is lax and no agency is willing to address it because they are scared of being called racist. I am sure there are a lot of white people getting in on the scam as well since it is over 50% of the payout and going up.

And no you can't fix SS. I have said that many times. We have jacked up taxes and extended retirement ages previously. In fact, 3 times we have "fixed" the program only to have the government increase spending again. The SS payins ave vastly exceeded that payouts but the government has just been spending the money.

It will get fixed when the national government goes bankrupt and defaults on all its debts and the States finally separate into 3 or 4 different countries.

34 His Roadmap is the most radical salvo... Conveniently ignoring TARPs I and II, endless Stimuli, Fed monkey business, and ObamaCare.

35

erg loughner is out on bail and yammering like a fucking dunce about how great and well funded social security is? 

More evidence that he was influenced by the Tea Party.

36 Posted by: Vic at January 24, 2011 11:33 AM (M9Ie6)

Are you talking about ADHD?  Wow, I grew up in a fairly good area and every third kid was "classified" and I just thought that was so they could have more time on the AP and SAT and ACT.

Their parents got money out of this?

37 Ezra is just a douche and a dumbass; the perfect product of what journalism schools upchuck on the general population.

38 I've had this discussion before with the Old Folks^tm (85 and 72).  I "won" when I asked my stepfather how much money he put in per month when he was working and how much he is getting now.  Also how many yrs he worked and how long he's been retired.  It wasn't a good "victory".  I could tell it hurt, but how else to stop this nonsense?  Now they have both changed their minds and know they are living on other peoples money.  It should be my money they're living on.

39 A combined unfunded liability for Social Security and Medicare that is about seven times the size of the US economy and 10 times the size of the outstanding national debt isn't the same thing as a danger. Who fucking knew?

40 This article addresses the core of what needs to be the 'small government' movement.  Small government isn't so much about a small government, it's returning the various government monopolized Social Marketplaces (SOMP) towards (if not to) individual control.  

This doesn't mean one is going to eliminate Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid and other entitlements -- that's a red herring that Liberal/Progressive/Socialist use to label small government conservatives as mean, nasty, unfeeling.  Sadly, this label fits when applied to small government conservatives who just don't get that these various big government SOMPs need to be reformed to be largely individually driven SOMPs that also provide a robust and vibrant means to provide the benefits of that SOMP to those of limited means.  

How might this be done...?  It's not as complicated as some might thing.  For a tease of what might work -- allow health care providers to deduct the unreimbursed cost of essential care from their income as a path away from Medicare and Medicaid.  You'll get thousands of providers who offer little to no Medicaid care to fall all over themselves to provide top quality, red tape free care of the highest quality.  It would be relatively free from fraud since one can only deduct charity care from cash paying care instead of padding some Medicaid form with bogus care.  Oh yes, this would be a tax cut to health care providers....   Boo Hoo that politicians would be left out of the loop of getting credit for being the providers of charity care.....   Which is as it should be... 

Similar solutions might work for other SOMPs.   It's not about small government, it's about smart government...  

41 As a Gen Xer, all I ask is that when I attain elderly stauts, they play my favorite episode of The Brady Bunch while I'm euthanized and converted into Soylent Mac N' Cheez. 

42 Their parents got money out of this?

Posted by: curious at January 24, 2011 11:35 AM (p302b)

I don't know specifically for ADH but there was an article that one of the Moronettes linked to several months ago about some woman in Detroit who was pulling in 80K a year from SS payments and various forms of welfare for her "children". 

43 BTW, the > 50% payout came from the SS admin's on site.

44 It is observationally true that the argument about the government providing or not providing such things as medical care, retirement funds, and so forth, is over. They are all just haggling over the details of what and how much, the argument of whether to provide social services is lost. I wish them well in reversing this, but don't hold out any hope that they can or will.

Posted by: steve at January 24, 2011 11:31 AM (wFwCH)

We made the mistake of going easy on W when he undermined a half-century of conservative thought by vastly expanding federal education and Medicare.

Rove knew it was good short term politics, sacrificing the rest of us to win two elections.

45 The questions are all moot.  We.Don't.Have.The.Money.

The Socialist system will burn down now, or burn down later, but burn down it will.

46

Remember.  It was the "greatest generation" that kick-started much of this by electing, and then twice re-electing FDR.  They may have won the big war but they made a huge mess otherwise.  Then, in their wisdom, decided to elect LBJ after he served the rest of JFK's term.  The "Great Society" started killing the republic where FDR left off. 

This is a good lesson to learn when it comes to everyone's children now.  We know what it's like to be left holding the bag.

47 the idea that liberals won the question about whether government should be providing certain things like pensions and health care and we are only left with fighting over how to pay for them.

Kinda sorta yeah.  We lost (or gave up) the fight over SocSec a loong time ago.

Of course in the end conservatives will 'win' one way or another. Either we get to do what has to be done or to paraphrase Margret Thatcher, we'll just run out of other people's money and kill them that way.

Uhm.  That's not winning.  That's losing.  Did the Greek conservatives just score a big win?  Irish conservatives?  Letting Leviathan collapse under its own weight is not a win to me.

48

9Those same seniors demanded a 50 year spending binge, paid for with those SS funds, instead of accepting higher taxes to pay for that spending binge while preserving the SS/Medicare system. And now they expect this generation to cover their financial  incontinence.

FU, we earned it.

49 Among the more ludicrous mythologies in the knucklehead cosmology is that Social Security is insolvent. Of course, it's not insolvent. But if you're knucklehead, you have to believe that Social Security is insolvent. It's just the way it is.

50 45 And burn us all down with it.

51 We'll always have the self-satisfaction of knowing we're right.  But that's kind of soured when you're oppressed and striken with poverty.

Or you're dead of cervical cancer at 22 because you can't legally get a Pap smear until you're 25.

52

Well, many of those Repubs who pushed the Bush-era CC triangulation crap have been discredited or thrown out of office; what few remain are going to be primaried in the ass by 12/14, if they don't quit by then.  I think applying the color red was apt for Republicans during the 000s; now they should change their assigned color to khaki to reflect the infusion of tea.   

 

53 Posted by: Soona at January 24, 2011 11:40 AM (9lUb/)

...The Greatest Generation who is so attached to Social Security.

In the early 1900s, it wasn't just Europe that was in love with socialism/fascism/collectivism.  The whole world, including the United States, was. 

54 Argument by assertion is a logical fallacy. Just throwing that out there for certain lazy trolls to chew on.

55 "No one wants the responsibility for their parents dropped on them when they are each working two jobs and worrying about who has the kids" said one of my friends who loves her parents but know her familial limits.

Sorry but your friends are wrong both morally and factually.  We need to go back to the idea of extended families.  I should not have to pay for your mom's condo in Fl.  The idea that your friends love their parents but don't want to pay for their food is "inconsistent", to put it gently. 

They are wrong factually because eventually we will be forced into this.  As a practical matter, would it not be better to train your children in the idea of taking care of your elders now, before its too late?  Lead by example.  What you do to your folks is what your children will do to you.

56 Argument by assertion is a logical fallacy. Just throwing that out there for certain lazy trolls to chew on.

Posted by: joncelli at January 24, 2011 11:45 AM (RD7QR)

Know what I hate?  Those goddamned Einstein political quotes.  Appeal to authority.  Drives me nucking futs.

57 I, and plenty of others, have made the point that Grandma and Grandpa are our allies in destroying the petty socialism and life support mechanism of the left.  We must stress that to save entitlemenst until last, all the petty crap CPB, NEA, EPA and even the DoEd and Energy must go first.  When only SS/Medicare and the Constitutionally reasonable government tasks are left, then we talk reformation.

Make the older voters our allies.

Plus, all these crappy little grants and agencies are the tits that keep the left alive.  It's not like they have any marketable skills.

58

I assume granny will find herself moving back in with the kids.

Posted by: Reactionary at January 24, 2011 11:30 AM (xUM1Q)

Well, actually, at 51 I am moving back to California to help care for my 83 year Old Mom... so we can keep her out of the Nursing Home a bit longer.  She's active and independent today, but that could change at the drop of a hat... so we are planning for the future...

But this is how it SHOULD be... Family taking care of Family... not the Governemnt taking care of us.

59 What I'm saying is there's no political way to go cold turkey/massively cut SS or Medicare for current or near term recipients. If you put it to a vote, you'd lose simply because old people vote. They would take their chances that they'll be dead before the shit hits the fan. Which, in my view, equates to saying "we're doomed". The "cold turkey" approach is the only one that has a prayer of working. Trying to "phase in" cuts won't work because we are out of money right now, not twenty years from now. Ryan is trying mightily to square the circle, but even he admits that his plan doesn't make the plans solvent over the long term -- even best-case, they're only solvent to 2037 or so. Medicare will collapse sooner, SS later (depending on how you crunch the numbers and how optimistic you are about our GDP going forward). If something can't go on forever, it will stop. We all hoped that future generations would have to deal with this mess, but guess what? We threw snake-eyes, so we get to deal with it. Tough break, but it is what it is.

60 Of course in the end conservatives will 'win' one way or another Pyrrhic victories aren't satisfying.

61 REPEAL!

Then fix anything that already has its own tax eg. SS to payouts = revenue - administration on a yearly basis.  Then just maybe everyone not in the administration bucket will start to get that Govt. cannot efficiently allocate.

62 Sorry but your friends are wrong both morally and factually.  We need to go back to the idea of extended families.  I should not have to pay for your mom's condo in Fl.  The idea that your friends love their parents but don't want to pay for their food is "inconsistent", to put it gently. 

They are wrong factually because eventually we will be forced into this.  As a practical matter, would it not be better to train your children in the idea of taking care of your elders now, before its too late?  Lead by example.  What you do to your folks is what your children will do to you.

Posted by: countrydoc at January 24, 2011 11:45 AM (131HS)

Damn skippy.  Hell, I've even thought that gummint handouts should be based on the whole family's finances, not merely the household.  Liberals would love the idea.  I'd call it a relative tax, and they'd line up to pay.

Right?

63

We need to go back to the idea of extended families. 

I'm beginning to come around to that--I don't know know why my retired father stays in Chicago with the crappy weather and a crappy football coach and 5% income tax. 

64 Know what I hate? Those goddamned Einstein political quotes. Appeal to authority. Drives me nucking futs. Posted by: FUBAR at January 24, 2011 11:47 AM (McG46) Yup. Noam Chomsky mangled linguistics in an elegant way so he simply MUST be an expert on matters foreign and domestic!

65 Come to think of it, I don't know why anyone stays in Chicago with the crappy weather and a crappy football coach and 5% income tax. 

66

"Either we get to do what has to be done or to paraphrase Margret Thatcher, we'll just run out of other people's money and kill them that way."

Well, considering that apparently more and more polls are showing that  vast swaths of clueless fucking idiots  our adult population thinks the Chief Socialist of the United States is a moderate now, I'm gonna put my money on us not doing what has to be done.

67 Well, considering that apparently more and more polls are showing that vast swaths of clueless fucking idiots our adult population thinks the Chief Socialist of the United States is a moderate now, I'm gonna put my money on us not doing what has to be done. Posted by: Burn the Witch at January 24, 2011 11:52 AM (A/oSU) Then in 20 years, we're Greece. 10 if Bambi gets reelected.

68 SS/Medicare can, and should, be our wedge issue.

69 Noam Chomsky mangled linguistics in an elegant way so he simply MUST be an expert on matters foreign and domestic!

Posted by: joncelli at January 24, 2011 11:51 AM (RD7QR)

Chuckle.

70 Hah!  My elephants are unstoppable.

71 Beck just said that some major news organization is treating the SOTU freeforall sitdown as a prom?

Geez I get up for a minute and he says stuff like this and I miss the whole context of whether or not it was a joke or real.

Posted by: curious at January 24, 2011 11:29 AM (p302b)

It's real.  ABC did it.

72 Hey, let's stop near this town on the map. What's it say? Carrhae? I could use something to drink.

73 I don't know know why my retired father stays in Chicago with the crappy weather and a crappy football coach and 5% income tax.

Well my folks love their "independence", which is why they don't mind taking other people's money so much.

74 I would almost say let the shit pile collapse.  But there's too many wolves (China, Mexico, islam, etc.) at the door, licking their chops, ready to pounce when we finally stumble and fall.

75 SS/Medicare can, and should, be our wedge issue.

Tangentially, you know* those TV ads selling you "mobility scooters" at "no cost to you!" (because the federal government picks up the whole tab)? I hate those people.

* of course you don't, you're all at work during the day.  Sigh.

76 We'll keep trying to save everything because we bother to study history and know what societal collapse entails. Unfortunately, our saving things will make it look like the system that brings about collapse is viable after all. In the immortal words of Master Yoda, "Boned we are. Yes."

77 The main problem with all kinds of social welfare, and what has been true for all human history, is that ultimately, welfare programs cause more harm than they alleviate. Civilized peoples care for the elderly, the helpless, and the ill and maimed -- the weakest of us all, in short. It is only right and proper that we do so (the moral thing, if you are a tediously religious person like me). But social welfare programs inexorably metastasize and encompass more and more of the citizenry until finally there is almost no one who is not considered "helpless". When a civilization infantilizes and disempowers its citizens, it is crippling the engine that drives the civilization forward. We want citizens who are strong, self-reliant, creative, brave, bold, and smart; instead we get a pack of overgrown children who whine when it's too cold or too hot or the internet goes out for ten minutes or the price of sugar goes up by a quarter a pound. Who take their social-welfare as wages owed rather than charity given. A civilization can go on this way for some time -- a surprisingly long time, in fact -- but sooner or later, the machine will run down and stop for lack of fuel. Reality will assert itself, and in the end these pampered children are going to be left in a very cold and windy place with no skills to help them survive.

78 Posted by: Monty
-----
You are wrong, Monty.  Medicare can be easily fixed.  Just stop paying for shit that costs too much.

That is exactly what you are proposing by foisting all the old people on to private plans, aren't you? You are just too cowardly to make the decision yourself.  You insist some nameless person working for some nameless insurance company be the one to refuse paying for the most costly part of senior care - and that is end-of-life care.

One quarter of all Medicare outlays are for the last year of life.   Simply deny extraordinary measures and you save 1/4th on Medicare costs.

You could easily save a lot more by denying claims for emergency room visits or for upping the co-pay for them.. then cut out benefits for electric scooters and get serious about fraud.

Medicare is an insurance program.  Make it start paying for itself through higher premiums, higher co-pays and cost cutting (encourage HMO's).  The overhead is much less than any private insurer could provide already.  This isn't rocket science.. it's politics.  Just make it work.  Talking about dumping millions of old people into the hands of private shyster insurance companies is political suicide, especially when you can make the funding work fairly easily.

79

There's exactly one thing I agree with the Democrats on: the vsat majority of Americans are too stupid to make informed political decisions. I don't know how many more polls have to show people not knowing where Iraq is on a map to prove this point. The party that offers Free Stuff wins. Let's face it, when Republicans win it's often because they convince people that we're gonna engage in a little bit of fiscal sanity now to be able to give them more Free Stuff in the future.

Letting progressives get into power was like letting a drunk drive your car. The result was wrong, unfair, and criminal, but you can't just pretend it didn't happen.

80

Well, actually, at 51 I am moving back to California to help care for my 83 year Old Mom...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 24, 2011 11:49 AM (AdK6a)

Oy, wouldn't recommend that....

81 those TV ads selling you "mobility scooters" at "no cost to you!" (because the federal government picks up the whole tab)? I hate those people.

I hate those people too.  Now they are cold calling the elderly, telling them about all that free stuff and mailing me the forms to fill out.  I've gotten several request for penis pumps to help with ED.  I tell my patients "no".

82 Come to think of it, I don't know why anyone stays in Chicago with the crappy weather and a crappy football coach and 5% income tax.  Posted by: Big Fat Meanie
----------
You forgot the 11% sales tax on top of all that.

But, I got an issue with your crappy coach comment.  The Bears made it much farther this season than anyone had ever hoped.  They should have never even made it to the finals.

83  I've gotten several request for penis pumps to help with ED.  I tell my patients "no".
Erections are a right!  Dinenwangchisement!

84 Well my folks love their "independence", which is why they don't mind taking other people's money so much.

That's the argument for giving serial baby mamas government checks.  Back in the evil oppressive bad old days, whichever family member or church charity fed the baby got to have some input into the mama's behavior.  Their Constitutional right to sexual self-expression was cruelly denied...

85 ......And then there's the idea of "retirement", which is also a socialist ideal.

86 81 Yep.All the AARP and other ads directed at seniors are all about sucking off the gubmint teat.

87 Back in the evil oppressive bad old days, whichever family member or church charity fed the baby got to have some input into the mama's behavior.

I've always maintained that public assistance is just a license to be an ass.  If you know that your well being might someday be dependent on the charity of others, you go out of your way to liked.

88 Tangentially, you know* those TV ads selling you "mobility scooters" at "no cost to you!" (because the federal government picks up the whole tab)? I hate those people.

So, does this meet demand, or raise it?

There's the problem with government involvement.  We go from 'meeting needs' in the original estimates to 'fulfilling wants' and costs skyrocket.  Apparently it's lucrative enough that these companies can spend money to go headhunting with ads all over TV.

And I will guaran-damn-tee that these corporate fatcats selling scooters are Dem voters because they love that sweet, sweet teat.

GOP Party of the Rich, my ass.

89

Well, actually, at 51 I am moving back to California to help care for my 83 year Old Mom... so we can keep her out of the Nursing Home a bit longer.  She's active and independent today, but that could change at the drop of a hat... so we are planning for the future...

But this is how it SHOULD be... Family taking care of Family... not the Governemnt taking care of us.

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 24, 2011 11:49 AM

I spent most of last year and much of the year before 500 miles away from my home helping my dad care for my terminally ill mother.  After my mother died, I decided to move in with my dad permanently because he is 83 and, while he is active and independent, like your mother, I don't want to be so far away when something bad happens and I don't want strangers taking care of my family.

90

There's exactly one thing I agree with the Democrats on: the vsat majority of Americans are too stupid to make informed political decisions.

Posted by: Paul at January 24, 2011 12:00 PM (DsHk0)

You can thank the Progressives Era and the education system they forced onto America for that.

91 86 81 Yep.All the AARP and other ads directed at seniors are all about sucking off the gubmint teat.

Posted by: steevy at January 24, 2011 12:06 PM (kwo94)

I'm on the fence about this. With the amount of money I've paid in, I tell my Mom to get any legit service she can out. Cause I ain't never gonna see dime one from the Fed.

92 Sorry but your friends are wrong both morally and factually.  We need to go back to the idea of extended families.  I should not have to pay for your mom's condo in Fl.  The idea that your friends love their parents but don't want to pay for their food is "inconsistent", to put it gently. 

They are wrong factually because eventually we will be forced into this.  As a practical matter, would it not be better to train your children in the idea of taking care of your elders now, before its too late?  Lead by example.  What you do to your folks is what your children will do to you.
Posted by: countrydoc at January 24, 2011 11:45 AM (131HS)

The reason this won't happen is the tragedy of the commons.  No one wants to assume the burden of taking care of their parents, only to find that the rest of society continues to use the government to force others to do it for them.  Nobody likes to fell like a chump. 

93 So my friend just said the "big family secret from the big O is that she found her long lost sister.  So does that mean that sis is now a bajillionaire?  Guess she figures she wants to have someone to leave the money too, we know how leaving it to the cat or dog turns out.

94

The DJIA continues to baffle and amaze me.  11,966.56  +94.72 (+0.80%)

It truly seems to float on hot air alone.

95 You are wrong, Monty. Medicare can be easily fixed. Just stop paying for shit that costs too much. You should mail that devastingly simple notion to the Washington boys. I'm sure that when they see the genius of your approach, they will jump on it immediately and kick themselves for not having seen it sooner. "Just stop paying for shit that costs too much." Genius! Who gets to decide how much is "too much"? Do we tell the equipment and drug manufacturers that they can only sell their stuff at a predetermined price (price-fixing), or do we simply tell my Grammy that she can't have a new hip if she's past 80? (Everyone's for cost cutting until it happens to someone in their own family; then, by God, you better break the bank if it'll make Grammy feel better.) And when the medical equipment manufacturers and pharma companies and insurance providers go out of business or move overseas, do we consider that a good result or a bad one?

96 fell = feel

For the record, the honorable thing to do is to take care of them yourself, but if you are paying for everyone else's profligacy, you want to get something out of it. 

97

I'm on the fence about this. With the amount of money I've paid in, I tell my Mom to get any legit service she can out. Cause I ain't never gonna see dime one from the Fed.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at January 24, 2011 12:08 PM (LdYLm)

But isn't that the problem? You haven't paid in, you were taxed...

98

There's the problem with government involvement.  We go from 'meeting needs' in the original estimates to 'fulfilling wants' and costs skyrocket.  Apparently it's lucrative enough that these companies can spend money to go headhunting with ads all over TV.

Of course.  Just ask LESKO!

99 91 The demand for "free" goods is infinite.

100 See, what you guys don't understand is that it's ok for your parents to give up their social security or for your neighbor to give up their welfare but its not ok for you to give up yours.  Even the folks who have had more unemployment than ever in the history of the world are on the dole.  So maybe we are past the "more than 50% of the population getting some kind of "government assistance" and that will make it tough for anyone who tries to take it away.  The minute there are more people at the party than aren't, the party goers automatically have more sway as to how the party ultimately plays out.  They'd want defense cut before you cut their precious handout, which, btw, they think they are entitled to, so entitlements is a great word.

101

I'm on the fence about this. With the amount of money I've paid in, I tell my Mom to get any legit service she can out. Cause I ain't never gonna see dime one from the Fed.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at January 24, 2011 12:08 PM (LdYLm)

But isn't that the problem? You haven't paid in, you were taxed...

 

Exactly.  As a matter of fact, you paid Goznell's salary.

102 Guess she figures she wants to have someone to leave the money too

She's not going to give it to the federal government to pay for the programs for "the poor" that she champions? 

I am shocked. /meh

103 Any gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied.

104

Curious @ #32

Ordinarily I agree with your positions on issues, but on that one, I'm inclined to look at it from another perspective: If one truly loves their parents, imho, one will make adjustments in one's life which will ensure the well-being and best interests of one's elderly parents, even if it inconvenieces oneself to take care of one's parents. That is what responsible children do. Parents aren't to be discarded like yesterday's garbage as soon as they've outlived their usefulness to a child. To put a parent into a nursing home, as opposed to bringing a helpless and defenseless, elderly parent into one's home to care for them is to shirk one's responsibilities - the way of the me, me, me first, selfish and self-centered, spoiled brats generation, who owe much of what they have to their parents, and who therefore have a debt to repay.

105 100 Yep.It is human nature...0

106 Medicare/Medicaid fails in principle for a simple reason: it approaches medical technology as if it were a subsidized cafeteria meal, when instead it is a fabulously complex and time-consuming service (and complexity/time equals money). An enormous amount of R&D, education, capital expenditure, and ongoing services go into a modern hospital: one of the reasons medical care costs so much is that modern medical care is inherently expensive. But we've also decided, as a people, that we don't want to handle our own health any more. We eat to excess, we don't exercise, we smoke, we drink, we do dangerous things -- all in the knowledge that a state-of-the-art hospital is only a helicopter-ride away in the worst case. And that the bulk of the expense of whatever fabulously-expensive procedure we have done will be paid by "insurance". It's the classic problem of the "seen" versus the "unseen" -- our health-related behavior is irrational because we never have to account for the true costs of it. Medical care is not a "right", regardless of what the left may tell you. It is a combination of goods and services that cost a lot of money to provide. You can try to hide this truth under layers of bureaucracy and rules and laws, but the basic truth will never change.

107 104 My parents are currently taking care of my grandmother(mothers mother).She is 94,goes to dyalisis 3 times a week,can't walk unassisted.She also often screams all night or all day or both.

108 Posted by: Monty at January 24, 2011 12:18 PM (4Pleu)

Indeed, and I'm thinking a $20,000+ hospital bill would do wonders at discouraging irresponsible behavior. Maybe not at first, but it'll do it soon enough.

109

Well, actually, at 51 I am moving back to California to help care for my 83 year Old Mom...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 24, 2011 11:49 AM (AdK6a)

Oy, wouldn't recommend that....

Posted by: KG at January 24, 2011 12:01 PM (2k/Dg)

LOL... even worse... its the Central Valley (Merced region)... but I still have a lot of friends there, and we're taking the opportunity to start an IT business taking care of Doctors and Lawyers offices (two recession proof groups)...

But we could not blast my Mom out her home and Church with explosives... so its either one of us move there, or we wait for the almost ineveitable crises... and as I'm the one whose Kids just moved out?

110 Who gets to decide how much is "too much"? Do we tell the equipment and drug manufacturers that they can only sell their stuff at a predetermined price (price-fixing), or do we simply tell my Grammy that she can't have a new hip if she's past 80? (Everyone's for cost cutting until it happens to someone in their own family; then, by God, you better break the bank if it'll make Grammy feel better.)

And when the medical equipment manufacturers and pharma companies and insurance providers go out of business or move overseas, do we consider that a good result or a bad one?
Posted by: Monty
-----------------
Yes.  Sorry you tell granny she can't have a hip at 80.  Do you think a private insurer will pay for that?

Pharma companies are already going overseas.  I have no sympathy for big pharma.  These pricks pay off politicians on both sides to keep their profits high.

Let me ask you something.  Is it price-fixing to negotiate a price with a pharmaceutical provider based on volumer purchases?  Of course not, Blue Cross does it all the time!  Why then, did our Congress pass a law specifically prohibiting that practice for medicare?  We are represented by crooks on all sides.

111 101

I'm on the fence about this. With the amount of money I've paid in, I tell my Mom to get any legit service she can out. Cause I ain't never gonna see dime one from the Fed.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at January 24, 2011 12:08 PM (LdYLm)

But isn't that the problem? You haven't paid in, you were taxed...

Exactly.  As a matter of fact, you paid Goznell's salary.

Posted by: Soona at January 24, 2011 12:14 PM (9lUb/)

Yea, I dig it. You're right. It's just a bottomless hole of wealth.

112 So FDR's legacy program, and the foundation of Democrat policy since that time, was all so we could keep those inconvenient old people comfortingly out-of-sight, out-of-mind.

113 Not part of my core of curriculum, IYKWIM.

Posted by: Rachel Maddow at January 24, 2011 11:26 AM (yc0pK)

What a rancid, pompous, lying, irritating bitch you are.

114

My parents are currently taking care of my grandmother(mothers mother).She is 94,goes to dyalisis 3 times a week,can't walk unassisted.She also often screams all night or all day or both.

My grandmother was existing in a state like that for about a year...took years off of my Dad's life.  He wouldn't entertain certain measures with her, but I've noticed that he went from a pack a day smoker to two packs (unfiltered).     

115 Posted by: Romeo13 at January 24, 2011 12:21 PM (AdK6a)

My condolences =P

And good luck to you, it's going to get hairy here, I think.

116

as usual the GOP says, "slow down Social Security and Medicare" and the left hears "lets end Social Security and Medicare" ...

they really can't see a difference between reduce and eliminate ...

 

117

Medicare and Social Security were fixed not only in 1986 when the taxes were doubled but several times since then when the top cutoff rate went up and up. It was fixed so well in fact that it created a $2.5 Trillion surplus to pay for the boomers. Problem is that we knowingly or unknowly let the goverment spend the surplus on other stuff so we wouldn't have to pay more taxes.

Republicans got what they wanted, more defense spending and democrats got what they wanted, more social spending. Then under Bush republicans decided we wanted more social spending too and created the medicare drug bill.

Social Security is the easiest to fix, the fairest way would be to again up the top cutoff rate, give those earners a bigger payout but some fraction of what they actually pay in. You could also do what Reagan did and double everyones tax payments.

Medicare is a different problem. Health care costs have increased astronomically and medicare taxes have not. To save medicare tax rates need to catch up with medical inflation and benefits like the drug bill need to be cancelled.

Like it or not this country decided a long time ago that we were going to pay for the poors health care. If you could drag your sick or injured ass to an emergency room you can get treatment at no cost to you if you are poor. That cost is reflected in higher medical costs and eventually paid by medicare and our own private insurance policies.

We can decide to make what we are already doing regarding the poor more efficient or we can decide to let them die on the street. Obamacare didn't do it. Obamacare mandates that everyone will get the same insurance coverage which we can't afford and which drives up costs. If something is free you use more of it.

118

Seniors may expect to retain their "benefits", but people younger than 40 know they're not going to get a cent from S/S. 

So why not cut a deal (in effect) with younger voters, gradually phasing out certain aspects of S/s, raising the retirement age, offering an option to privatize a portion of your contribution, and adding means testing to determine benefits at retirement

Voila!  Greedy seniors are mollified, and younger voters stop seeing their FICA "contributions" as money thrown away.

119

>> I think there's some truth to this.

I do, too. But that doesn't mean the socialists have won. It's a natural and reasonable expectation of a society that that grows in both size and complexity that it's governments will fulfill more of its needs.

>> The idea of doing away with Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare is simply a fringe position at this point in time.

So are the notions of doing away with public schools and the minimum wage. Fannie and Freddie are probably permanent, too, and will always have the support of the government.

If we accept all of these things, then the challenge of our time is to ensure their permanence by making them viable. The socialists will only have won once we accept ever-increasing taxes to fund corruption or clauses that include jail terms for not having health insurance.

120 We are represented by crooks on all sides.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 24, 2011 12:21 PM (f9c2L)

This is truth. And unfortunately, it is the default state of humanity, depressing isn't it?

121

 allow health care providers to deduct the unreimbursed cost of essential care from their income as a path away from Medicare and Medicaid.  You'll get thousands of providers who offer little to no Medicaid care to fall all over themselves to provide top quality, red tape free care of the highest quality. 

This used to be the way we covered the poor before "The Great Society" took over.  It worked too well, so, of course, it had to be stopped.

122

Well, actually, at 51 I am moving back to California to help care for my 83 year Old Mom...

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 24, 2011 11:49 AM (AdK6a)

Oy, wouldn't recommend that....

Posted by: KG at January 24, 2011 12:01 PM (2k/Dg)

Computerized trading, and most trades are held for very short periods of time...

DOW now has nothing to do with reality, they are just "betting" on short term herd mentality trades... ie betting on which way the herd happens to be moving today (up or down)...

123 114 It has aged my mother badly.

124 @118
Sounds a lot like George Bush's abortive plan.  The left demagogued it, of course, so it went nowhere.   Perhaps people will be more inclined to listen now. 

125 If we accept all of these things, then the challenge of our time is to ensure their permanence by making them viable. The socialists will only have won once we accept ever-increasing taxes to fund corruption or clauses that include jail terms for not having health insurance.
Posted by: FireHorse at January 24, 2011 12:25 PM (sWynj)

And that's Klein's point...even Ryan (who just about as far out there on talking this stuff on as you can be) isn't arguing over whether we should do these things, just how.

That's a pretty big win for socialism.

126 115 Posted by: Romeo13 at January 24, 2011 12:21 PM (AdK6a)

My condolences =P

And good luck to you, it's going to get hairy here, I think.

Posted by: KG at January 24, 2011 12:23 PM (2k/Dg)

Thanks... I would NEVER move there if the kids still lived with me... but being just meself, and well trained and well armed... and going in with my eyes open... I think I can help...

127

Posted by: Romeo13 at January 24, 2011 12:26 PM (AdK6a)

LOL... Major cut and paste FAIL...

128 125 Taking this shit away is damn near impossible.Once it is "given".

129 If we accept all of these things, then the challenge of our time is to ensure their permanence by making them viable.

It was this way of seeing things that rightfully got Bob Dole mocked as The tax collector for the Welfare State.

This is what plays into the hands of the socialists, who are like drunken railroad clerks, setting impossible schedules that the engineers have to try and meet.  When they fail, as they must, the travelers blame the conductors. 

It's a win-win for the erg loughners of the left.

130 dammit

131 Once again.  Retirement is an idea of socialism.  If everyone would look at retirement as something one has to do at some point in life because of physical or mental incapacitation instead of a right, then maybe we could start talking about cutting spending.  But as long as the idea of a "set retirement" at a certain age exists, we're going to have these problems.

132 Tol' ya so.

133 She also often screams all night or all day or both.

Posted by: steevy at January 24, 2011 12:20 PM (kwo94)

Patience, many prolonged hugs and loving, tenderly spoken soothing words will accomplish much more than any medications will ever accomplish. Dementia is frightening and bewildering to those pitiful, elderly people who have it. 

134 To put a parent into a nursing home, as opposed to bringing a helpless and defenseless, elderly parent into one's home to care for them is to shirk one's responsibilities - the way of the me, me, me first, selfish and self-centered, spoiled brats generation, who owe much of what they have to their parents, and who therefore have a debt to repay.

That argument really, really falls flat when you've got a bipolar, borderline-personality disorder parent who abused you as a child. So I'm told.

135 There's the problem with government involvement.  We go from 'meeting needs' in the original estimates to 'fulfilling wants' and costs skyrocket.

Its not even wants.  As I've said, they're cold calling old folks.  My patients come in and tell me they "need" this stuff.  When I ask them, they say somebody called them and offered all this free stuff and they figured since its free, they might as well get some.  Its not even need or want anymore, it more like "why not, its free?"  "So what if the scooter sits in the garage, I didn't pay for it."

136 Klein is right. The socialists won, we lost.

And now we're boned.

137 133 Yes I know.The sleep deprivation is hard on my mother though.At 68,she is no spring chicken herself.

138 With the amount of money I've paid in, I tell my Mom to get any legit service she can out.

Gee, thanks for being a leech on the rest of us.  You are part of the problem and should be ashamed of yourself.  I should not have my money confiscated so your Mom can "get stuff", the amount you paid in is not covering the cost for that. 

139 You can't legislate morality is all I've heard from the anti abortion crowd over the years but I guess that only applies to one issue.

If you can't or don't want to or they don't want you to, take care of your parents then, because of someone else's morals or religious beliefs you are automatically a bad person.

I see how that works now.

140

we took care of my grandfather for 13 years  in our home growing up after our grandmother died, at times it was difficult, still we learned alot about tolerance of old ways , tolerant of frailty., and I wouldn't have traded the experience.

unfortuantely both my mother and father died young, so we won't have that experience .

141

#137 - Keep telling your dear mom that she is magnificent and awesome and that there will be a special place for her in heaven.

Being a caregiver for an elderly parent (or any invalid) can be the most difficult and the most stressful job that a person will ever have. But it can be the most gratifying job that one will ever have, also. Knowing what to do in emergencies, thinking quickly and saving a life repeatedly,, and providing a high quality of life, and keeping someone well, safe,  content and happy, and giving them security and peace of mind has its rewards, also. Tell your dear mom that she is very special ......, and hey, fill in for her and let her take a break for a few days at a time occasionally.

142

That's a pretty big win for socialism.

Granted, but it isn't the end-all ultimate victory of socialism. We win some, they win some.

I guess the big question is whether we want government to be our servant, our partner or our parents. I'm in the "partner" category, but I also think that there are times when the other two are appropriate.

143 Apparently I missed the debate Mr. Klein says the lefties won. Was this the big long debate on Christmas Eve? Perhaps we should judge the debate after the last rebuttal.

144

Of course in the end conservatives will 'win' one way or another. Either we get to do what has to be done or to paraphrase Margret Thatcher, we'll just run out of other people's money and kill them that way.

I was thinking that the whole way through your post.  Glad you mentioned it at the end, Drew.

We're at the end of the liberal Ponzi schemes.  That which cannot continue, won't.

145 Posted by: willow at January 24, 2011 12:57 PM (h+qn

willow, I"m not saying that I personally wouldn't take any family member in in a heartbeat, what I'm saying is that there is a whole bunch of people out there, who love their family, but just know that psychologically, financially and emotionally they can't do it, they just can't.  And you can't vilify them and make them seem like bad people (not you personally, the general "you").  But you have to deal in the realities of the time we are in, and the situation we have as it exists in real time, not the ideal situation we would hope to have.  I think any republican who is pragmatic will necessarily come down on fixing the entitlement system and not just getting rid of it and will then be labeled a RINO by the very conservative crowd.

Funny, people can demand entitlements and then vote out those not in favor of them, yet, the banks have millions of people underwater with their mortagages and have done millions of foreclosures and yet they only reworked the ones doomed to fail again so they would have an example of "it doesn't work" for anyone critical of them.  Yet how many people have asked for a mortgage restructuring and they aren't even able to ge someone on the phone to even discuss it....cause they really don't know what to do.  They don't want to lose money but in the end, people would stay in their homes and they would ultimately make more money than holding onto property that decreases in value every day.   The administration doesn't go after these bankers at all, yet they are going to cut "entitlements" cause they will have no choice.

There are lots of sides to every story and not everything is black and white, it's the shades of gray where the truth lies.

146 Whoever said "the liberal ponzi scheme is over"....I disagree.  Unless and until all the legislators who fail to hear the voice of the people are voted out of office, the liberal agenda will continue, even if it means dire financial consequences.

147 There are lots of sides to every story and not everything is black and white, it's the shades of gray where the truth lies.

I'm really sympathetic to the people who would prefer to let their parent live in a wheelchair-accessible home with nursing staff and medical equipment available around the clock.

But tell me why that means my niece and nephews have to pay their bill.

148

Social programs are popular in the same way that a guy who owes you $20.00 repaying you $15.00 much later than expected is popular.  You take the money and are glad that you have gotten anything.

Lending the same guy $20.00 again - it's not that popular.

 

 

 

 

 

149 We are represented by crooks on all sides.


Those crooks represent us well. The majority wanted something for nothing for the last several decades, so they juggled the books for us as long as they could while we authorized congress to spend money in a manor that would have stunned a drunken sailor.

We wanted to spend the money on crap. They gave us what we wanted. The money is all gone, and no one is stupid enough to loan us any more to spend.

Obambi can re-arrange the deck chairs on this Titanic all he wants ...

150

curious, i understand the difficulties, i would say, those that are able should, and for the others, guess that's what aide and options were set up for.

also for those that had parents that were bastards, it would be hard to expect their offspring to comfort them now .

we were poor our  mother with 5 kids such as myself , divorced, lived in a not perfect neighborhood, but in our situation it was an experience we woulnd't have missed, not for everyone.

151

The idea of doing away with Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare is simply a fringe position at this point in time.

Why is Medicaid put in the same category as Medicare?  People pay for Medicare.  People don't pay for Medicaid,  If anything is to be cut, Medicaid is to get cut long before (and much deeper) than Medicare.

This was the problem with that aspect of ObamaCare.  It wasn't that they cut Medicare.  That will have to be done.  It was that they stole from Medicare (which people still have to pay into) to expand Medicaid (which people just leech off of).  This was the problem.  But the despicable, lying scumbag leftists tried to paint this as "no one wants to cut Medicare" which is untrue.  Medicare must be cut, but Medicaid must be cut deeper and before anyone touches Medicare.

152

The problem is that these programs make the decision to be a "leech" a reasonable decision. Who wants to be a chump? This is the moral hazard.

I had a qualifying beater for a 5K cash for clunker payment. I didn't pull the trigger because I didn't think my neighbor needed to make the down payment on my car. It offended me.

But now when I make my car payment every month, I feel like a real idiot knowing that not only am I paying for whole enchilada on my car, I have already paid a downpayment for some other twit who didn't share my moral sensibilities. 

Next time I may look to get a little "refund" on the taxes if anyone is stupid enough to run that one again.

Our kids tell us that some of their friends have signed up for electric service at a reduced rate, like a flat $20 a month. They turn up the heat and leave the doors and windows open because the heat is "free."

We should try to beef up independent charitable organizations and church groups and get the govt out of the charity business.

153

A poverty lawyer once told me that housing subsidies for the impoverished were justified, noting that the mortgage interest deduction was a "subsidy" for me. Made sense. Until I thought about it some more. Isn't the mortgage interest deduction ultimately a subsidy for lenders because it makes higher interest rates more palatable? What would be the effect on residential mortgage interest rates if the deduction were ended? Anybody seen any empirical ruminations?

154 You are wrong, Monty. Medicare can be easily fixed. Just stop paying for shit that costs too much.

And who decides that? In other words, death panels.

155 But tell me why that means my niece and nephews have to pay their bill.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at January 24, 2011 01:17 PM (4ucxv)

The Obama Administration and other Democrats agrees with you. Cut the benefits of the elderly, let them die and redistribute their benefits to people who are sure to vote for Democrat politicians to keep in them in power indefinitely.

It's just as easy to rationalize why you should help helpless and defenseless senior citizens as it is to rationalize why you should not help them.  Try it. 

BTW, successive generations will have to pay the bills for your nieces and nephews, too. That's the breaks. Ain't life a bitch?

156 146 Whoever said "the liberal ponzi scheme is over"....I disagree.  Unless and until all the legislators who fail to hear the voice of the people are voted out of office, the liberal agenda will continue, even if it means dire financial consequences.

Posted by: curious at January 24, 2011 01:13 PM (p302b)

That's the thing.  What the liberals are doing in driving us towards a sovereign debt crisis is going to continue to destroy the Democrat Party.  This has already been manifested to a degree in November 2010.  More and more people are going to demand Tea Party principles, not fewer.  The larger the consequences for liberal Ponzi schemes, the better for conservatism and limited government.

Not to mention the fact that liberals are going to literally destroy themselves with a sovereign debt crisis.  Blue-on-blue violence in deep blue cities.  They are dependents.  They are violent agitators.  They are serfs.  They are politically VERY vulnerable to the fallout of a sovereign debt crisis.  We are none of those.  We'll be fine.  Just prepare yourself, it may get pretty bad.  God help us if Obeyme wins a second term somehow.

Here's an article from AT that I keep thinking about.  Be of good cheer.

http://tinyurl.com/24b5xt8

157

A closing thought:

For someone who has already accepted the responsibilities of being a good parent, there is little difference between taking care of their children and taking care of their parents. They just need to think of their elderly dad, for example, as that loveable cartoon character,  Baby Huey.

158

The problem is that these programs make the decision to be a "leech" a reasonable decision. Who wants to be a chump? This is the moral hazard.

Posted by: Mr. Barky at January 24, 2011 01:25 PM (qwK3S)

It isn't just a moral hazard, it's a trap!

It's kind of like why teens are always trying to tempt other teens into doing something mind-bogglingly stupid. Because if you both do it, it's not as stupid (your damaged brain says).

That's why looting is so much more dangerous than robbery... 1 in 1000 people may ever rob, but maybe 1 in 100 would go along with looting that's already happening. Including, famously, New Orleans police.

The sad thing is, this is another social ratchet toward our destruction, because people with weaker morals do in fact benefit, and their position (and numbers) improves as a result. And they protect the system that allows them to benefit, thus extending the behavior.

And people who refuse to take advantage don't "get ahead."

Man, I'm depressed now.

159 Sort of like the communists winning too.. Eventually, we are going to run out of money and all of these Social Programs will no longer exists....People who know something of self reliance will eventually be the winners.

160

@136: "The socialists won, we lost."

It wasn't so much a win as a victory by default.  The anti-socialists really never showed up for the fight back then, and they still keep avoiding it even now.  I'd say freedom died not with a bang, but with a whimper, except even that would be overstating how easily people rolled over.

161

2,000 plus pages of goverrnment regulations is Obamacare.

162

" ...seniors want stuff they think they've paid for and no one has the guts to take it away from them."

 

those are the right words to use, because there's the Social Security Tax, which legally is just a tax like any other and then there is the Social Security Administration which is a government program like many others, what people don't understand is that the two are not legally bound, if Congress chose to do so they could dismantle the SSA, stop sending out checks but still be legally entitled to keep on collecting the tax, the public has been duped about this from Day One.

 

163 Of course in the end conservatives will 'win' one way or another

This isn't a victory. This is a 'we both lose.' And even when it ends it'll be in such as a way to preserve as many of their gains as possible, it isn't going to be a reset.

164
Are you going to Scarborough Fair? Parsley sage rosemary and thyme. Remember me to one who lives there. She once was a true love of mine. Tell her to make me a cambric shirt. Parsley sage rosemary and thyme. Without no seams nor needle work. Then she will be a true love of mine. On the side of hill in the deep forest green, Tracing of sparrow on snow crested brown. Blankets and bed clothers the child of maintain Sleeps unaware of the clarion call. Tell her to find me an acre of land. Parsley sage rosemary and thyme. Between the salt water and the sea strand, Then she will be a true love of mine. On the side of hill a sprinkling of leaves Washes the grave with slivery tears. A soldier cleans and polishes a gun. Sleeps unaware of the clarion call. Tell her to reap it with a sickle of leather

165
moncler doudoune Are you going to Scarborough Fair? Parsley sage rosemary and thyme. Remember me to one who lives there. She once was a true love of mine. Tell her to make me a cambric shirt. Parsley sage rosemary and thyme. Without no seams nor needle work. Then she will be a true love of mine. On the side of hill in the deep forest green, Tracing of sparrow on snow crested brown. Blankets and bed clothers the child of maintain Sleeps unaware of the clarion call. Tell her to find me an acre of land. Parsley sage rosemary and thyme. Between the salt water and the sea strand, Then she will be a true love of mine. On the side of hill a sprinkling of leaves Washes the grave with slivery tears. A soldier cleans and polishes a gun. Sleeps unaware of the clarion call. Tell her to reap it with a sickle of leather.

166 seniors want stuff they think they've paid for and no one has the guts to take it away from them.

Excuse me all to hell, but I am rapidly approaching senior status and damn if I just THINK I paid for 'stuff.'  I damn well did pay for it, and you bet your ass I want it back.

The government stole my earnings with the threat of imprisonment if I didn't give it up.  HELL YES, I expect my damn SS checks.  I will never, in this lifetime, see anything like as much as I paid in so anyone who wants to bitch and whine about it can just get the hell off my lawn.