October 06, 2011
— Guest Blogger Inspiring, as always. This is definitely worth a watch today. Quite a life story. The full text is available here if you're at work. There are a few clunkers on here, but Mactrast has a good roundup of notable reactions to his passing.
[Additional thoughts from Andy:] As a tech-geek from way back, the Mac didn't interest me at all until OS X got it running a real operating system (i.e., UNIX) and they ditched Motorola for Intel CPUs. Now, just a few short years later, I have a house full of Macs, iPods, iPads and iPhones and one poor little Windows PC that's hanging on for dear life.
As the chief tech support guy at home, this has made life immeasurably easier. Thanks, Steve Jobs.
But what I really wanted to add to this post has to do with Apple as a force for unbridled capitalism. Kevin Williamson at NRO has a good piece on the same topic that I'll just quote from:
Jobs was sometimes criticized for not being a philanthropist along the lines of Bill Gates ... [but] Mr. Jobs’s contribution to the world is Apple and its products, along with Pixar and his other enterprises, his 338 patented inventions — his work — not some Steve Jobs Memorial Foundation for Giving Stuff to Poor People in Exotic Lands and Making Me Feel Good About Myself. Because he already did that: He gave them better computers, better telephones, better music players, etc. In a lot of cases, he gave them better jobs, too. Did he do it because he was a nice guy, or because he was greedy, or because he was a maniacally single-minded competitor who got up every morning possessed by an unspeakable rage to strangle his rivals? The beauty of capitalism — the beauty of the iPhone world as opposed to the world of politics — is that that question does not matter one little bit.
Spot on! Steve Jobs acting in what Adam Smith referred to as his "rational self-interest" produced products that people wanted because they made their lives better. Whether Jobs was an angel or an SOB was irrelevant.
And a specific example - even though no one at Apple sat down to design a computer for helping teach kids with autism, the iPad has begun to dislocate specialized therapy devices costing 10 times as much, putting needed technology in reach of families who value it for much more productive pursuits than playing Angry Birds.
Steve Jobs and Apple did that. Not some government program.
Posted by: Guest Blogger at
09:45 AM
| Comments (176)
Post contains 431 words, total size 3 kb.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2011 09:50 AM (jx2j9)
Contrast with the PC, which you can custom build to needs and tastes from the ground up. I've always found it an interesting cultural note, the differences. The whole subject abounds with ironies, if you care to look at it--ubiquitous personal computing brought about by a one-size-fits-all solution, which was then overcome with a different, and ultimately more flexible model (with its own drawbacks).
I could go on, but I won't. I'd rather have lunch and you'd rather not read more.
Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada! at October 06, 2011 09:54 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2011 09:55 AM (RD7QR)
I am not a member of the Cult of Jobs- the only iPod I own was a door-prize from a company function. I never plan to own an iPad. Yet, because of the iPhone and the iPad, I can have a smart phone designed for a consumer (as opposed to the glorified PDA that was the smartphone pre-iPhone) and will be getting a Kindle Fire in the relatively near future.
Steve Jobs made my life better- not because I ever spent a dime on any of his products (though I have- I love me some Pixar movies), but because he made the products I do want get better to compete with his products.
I hate cancer with a hot, hot hate. On my list of questions for God when I get to Heaven is, "Why cancer?"
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 09:56 AM (8y9MW)
Perfect example of the invaluable unintended consequences caused by people making profits without the interfering dictatorial arm of gubmint.
------
As the chief tech support guy at home, this has made life immeasurably easier. Thanks, Steve Jobs.
Indeed. Unfortunately some will insist that no matter what, anything made by Apple is a POS. They are as ignorant with their prejudice as fanboys are with their worship.
Posted by: George Orwell what knows that Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at October 06, 2011 09:56 AM (AZGON)
Yes, yes and yes.
Posted by: George Orwell what knows that Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at October 06, 2011 09:57 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2011 09:58 AM (jx2j9)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 09:58 AM (SB0V2)
I'm glad he is at peace now. I'm sure that was a terrible death. Prayers for his family and loved ones.
Posted by: Y-not at October 06, 2011 09:59 AM (5H6zj)
While this is true, I think that is a feature, not a bug. If you look at it from a tech-geek sliding scale, on one end you have the Truly Geeky who build their own machines from scratch (some of them even know how to solder some of their own boards), use some obscure LINUX distro and sneer down their noses at the "lesser" users. On the other end, you have Mac users- people who just want it to work. They want to take it home, plug it in, and start playing/working/surfing/watching.
I don't want to make a saint of Jobs -- as a human being he was a manipulative asshole (or at least that's what I've read).
I've never heard that he was a jerk, exactly, but very definitely a "Type A" personality. He wanted things his way, and if you didn't like that you could pound sand.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:00 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Heartless SOB Hobbit at October 06, 2011 10:01 AM (EL+OC)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 10:01 AM (SB0V2)
Posted by: supercore23 at October 06, 2011 10:01 AM (ZUFNn)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at October 06, 2011 10:03 AM (UlUS4)
Have you upgraded them, or have you had them upgraded? I've even known some Apple support types who wouldn't upgrade their own hardware- they'd always send it in to the shop.
It's not that they can't be upgraded, but that they're not as "user friendly" to upgrade as a PC.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:03 AM (8y9MW)
Not a fan of Apple. Overrated in my opinion. Over priced, horrible warranty program and no centralized management platform.
I'm out......
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:04 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: lu at October 06, 2011 10:04 AM (pLTLS)
What a hole he has left in the world's soul.
Oh, good Lord. He was just a man. He made tools.
I don't hear these kinds of paeans for the first Solutrian flint knapper, I don't think they're warranted for a dude whose product never grabbed a market share greater than 10%.
BFD, he was an "innovator." Seems to me he garnered success when he started making his products more like his main competitor.
Now I really like Pixar, but come on.
Posted by: imp at October 06, 2011 10:04 AM (UaxA0)
Posted by: "Anti-corporatist" with apple tattoos, iphone, and macbook. at October 06, 2011 10:04 AM (JVEmw)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 10:05 AM (SB0V2)
And this is what the SCOAMF will *never* understand about business.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:06 AM (tqwMN)
I don't know much about Steve Jobs, so nothing to add.
Powerline, however, suggests that Governor Weak Assed Shit sucks big weinie.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at October 06, 2011 10:06 AM (OlN4e)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 10:06 AM (SB0V2)
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2011 10:06 AM (RD7QR)
Posted by: MrObvious at October 06, 2011 10:08 AM (2uovW)
You don't have to be a fan of Apple to understand what good Steve Jobs did for you. Steve Jobs understood- better than anyone else in the computer world- that the day of the Enterprise business machine is pretty well over. When I can go spend about $2000 and get (thanks to GPU chaining) a computer with something like 100 parallel cores, the day of a huge server is more or less gone.
Jobs understood that the new market is the "consumer." Not someone who wants a computer to sit at home and play video games (though, them, too), but the person who wants to play Angry Birds because they've got 10 more minutes on lunch. Or the guy who wants to send out tweets without lugging a laptop around. Or whoever.
Microsoft still hasn't completely caught on, Google has, but not to the extent of Apple, and RIM decided to ossify within the business environment.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:08 AM (8y9MW)
OSX finally drove me to the PC side, that and having a secretary's laptop run circles around my G4 machine when I was developing flash presentations. Embarrassing and an epiphany. Haven't looked back. Now I have to troubleshoot people's macs to get them to talk to networks and printers. PIA. There's a couple of things I really miss about the macs, but the price isn't one of them.
Bought a ton of Apple stock back in the 90's at $14-16 a share. Just sold it a few months ago. Thank you Steve, Godspeed.
Posted by: Clutch Cargo at October 06, 2011 10:09 AM (u89vw)
Posted by: MrObvious at October 06, 2011 02:08 PM (2uovW)
Well what do you expect the media to report on, Solyndra?
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 10:09 AM (OtQXp)
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:10 AM (tqwMN)
But hey, who cares? The iPhone is COOL!!!!!eleventy!!!!
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:10 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: Bob Saget at October 06, 2011 10:10 AM (F/4zf)
Posted by: Buzzsaw at October 06, 2011 10:11 AM (tf9Ne)
Now some background :
Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, Brian Kernighan, Douglas McIlroy , were all creators of Unix in the 1970's.
Unix, the father of all operating systems, copied by all.
Posted by: NortonPete at October 06, 2011 10:11 AM (8zxoH)
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 02:10 PM (UK9cE)
HA! Only if you have the NEW one!
Posted by: Red Shirt at October 06, 2011 10:11 AM (FIDMq)
This is true. I don't quite get that either. I hadn't shared my thoughts about it, previously and wanted to, but I don't get the quasi-deification, either.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:11 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 10:11 AM (SB0V2)
Nah, those (or we) don't buy macs.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:11 AM (LD21B)
What a hole he has left in the world's soul.
What idiotic drivel. He was a geek, he made a shitload of money on the back of cheap chinese labor and in good liberal fashion decried said capitalistic system that he fully exploided. And now people want to make a Saint out of him? Give me a break.
Had he used american labor to build his gadgets nobody would buy that overpriced crap. And yes, it is overpriced toys, and I wouldn't pay just for a name.
Posted by: Ma Bell at October 06, 2011 10:12 AM (uVuwp)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 10:12 AM (SB0V2)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at October 06, 2011 10:12 AM (l9zgN)
Posted by: Heartless SOB Hobbit at October 06, 2011 10:13 AM (EL+OC)
Exactly. They pay a price to a company in China to build (some of) their stuff. In so doing, they help Chinese who otherwise might starve. And, since I don't believe in AGW, and I don't much care if the Chinese all give each other mercury poisoning, I don't sweat the "biggest polluter" thing, either.
If you've got a problem with Chinese slave-labor, talk to the Chinese government. Let me know how that works out for you.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:13 AM (8y9MW)
__________
While I agree about the Unix thing, I like PowerPC. Never been a big fan of the Intel architecture.
I did have a few run-ins in MacOS 8 and 9 during the dot-com era, but never grew attached to it. I have an old G3 tower that I occasionally try to run NetBSD on (Linux doesn't do it for me), but it's from the evil firmware era and no one has ever figured out the magic to get it to boot right.
Posted by: Anachronda at October 06, 2011 10:14 AM (NmR1a)
Not to rain on this lionization of Steve Jobs, but, wasn't Jobs:
- a corporate jet owner?
- a billionaire who didn't pay his fair share (none of them do, you know)
- an exporter of US jobs to sweat shops in China where reports of workers commiting suicide have been common?
- didn't he get a kidney transplant a year ago, despite having terminal pancreatic cancer thereby depriving another patient an organ that could have kept them alive for decades?
- led the largest, most profitable company in the world, but demonstarted no "green" leadership?
- over-charged for his products thereby generating billions in "windfall profits" by ripping off consumers?
- left no philanthropic venture or charity despite having a net worth of over $5B?
- contributed to our "throw away" society by building products designed to become obsolete and non-upgradable quickly?
My point is, if Jobs had been an outspoken conservative, he'd have been pillioried for all of the above.
BUT, since Jobs had been a staunch liberal, EVERYTHING above doesn't matter.
Can you say "double standard"?
I knew you could.......
Posted by: proudvastrightwingconspirator at October 06, 2011 10:14 AM (OwYZX)
For the record, Apple built their stuff in California until regulations in the late 90s made it impossible.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:14 AM (tqwMN)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 10:14 AM (i6RpT)
Remember, OSX....hacker took over Safari and was using the webcam to take pics of the user in under 2 minutes.
The market share isn't big enough for them to give a shit, yet.
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:14 AM (UK9cE)
Jobs saved Apple from itself and saved Pixar which in turn saved Disney. How many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of jobs did that save? That's more than enough of a public legacy for anyone.
Posted by: alexthechick at October 06, 2011 10:14 AM (VtjlW)
If you've got a problem with Chinese slave-labor, talk to the Chinese government. Let me know how that works out for you.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 02:13 PM (8y9MW)
Um, Ok......WOW!!! but Ok.
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:16 AM (UK9cE)
You down with A-P-P ... yeah you know me!!!
Posted by: Honey Badger at October 06, 2011 10:16 AM (GvYeG)
"True" gamers certainly don't. But the person to whom "gaming" is an XBox or Nintendo Wii will certainly like the offerings on the iPad. And the iPad2 can handle some fairly serious "console" style games.
But you're right, you're unlikely ever to play Half-Life or Left4Dead on your mac.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:16 AM (8y9MW)
Wow, wish something like that had happened at my commencement. It was all prim and proper, of course.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:16 AM (LD21B)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 10:17 AM (SB0V2)
I've always admired Jobs, he ran is company like a right wing capitalist. Never did understand why he always backed dems. I have a theory though that it was because he already knew repubs weren't in the business of messing with him so he bought off the dems.
When it came to running his business though he did things that would make hard core rightwingers blush.
Posted by: robtr at October 06, 2011 10:17 AM (MtwBb)
_______
I love my Mac, but the Pros are just too bloody expensive. I've been hoping that Thunderbolt would open things up (with PCI express going over the cable, I dream of someday being able to plug my trusty Mac mini into a VMEbus cage full of custom hardware), but I'm not seeing much of anything I find interesting going on in that space.
Posted by: Anachronda at October 06, 2011 10:17 AM (NmR1a)
Posted by: Bob Saget at October 06, 2011 02:10 PM (F/4zf)
In a previous life I did a lot of control system programming in machine language on MC 68XXX series machine. That was a very good architecture and I've always wondered why Apple gave up on it in favor of the Intel architecture which always seemed kind of kludgy to me.
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 10:18 AM (OtQXp)
Apple ranks 35th in the Fortune 500. In a world where capitalists are suddenly apparently ashamed of their capitalism, Jobs played a pretty major part imo, in helping to keep capitalism from becoming a four letter word in this country as it has in many other western countries.
Unless Apple can keep products and innovations coming like he did, it is my opinion that there is indeed a hole there that will be very difficult to fill.
He was just a man? Like you? I seriously doubt it.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2011 10:18 AM (jx2j9)
Posted by: The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Barky at October 06, 2011 10:18 AM (qwK3S)
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:18 AM (UK9cE)
Both are available and popular on the Mac via Steam, actually.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:19 AM (tqwMN)
Well what do you expect the media to report on, Solyndra?
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 02:09 PM (OtQXp)
Yes, I guess I'm naive like that.
Solyndra.
Fast & Furious,
Solyndra II,
Eric Holder's lies to Congress,
the current status of the War on Terrorism,
The idea that Preznit "Lost the debt ceiling debate" doubled down on a jobs bill that requires more spending....
Unemployment,
99weeks of extended unemployment compensation and the concept that it's accomplished NOTHING but fueled demand for more unemployment compensation...
Ya....I guess I'm just naive like that......
Posted by: MrObvious at October 06, 2011 10:19 AM (2uovW)
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:19 AM (tqwMN)
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 10:20 AM (SB0V2)
I believe we should take care of the planet. But if you're going to crap where you sleep- as long as it isn't also where I sleep- that's up to you.
Again, as for "slave labor," Apple is simply getting as close as they can to the optimum intersection on the price/quality nexus. It's hardly their fault if China doesn't require a "living wage," and you can hardly expect them to pay some American union worker 20/hr for 7/hour work.
This has nothing to do with the moral repugnance of the Chinese Government and current culture- those are absolutely repugnant.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:20 AM (8y9MW)
When it came to running his business though he did things that would make hard core rightwingers blush.
Posted by: robtr at October 06, 2011 02:17 PM (MtwBb)
Meh, leftists have proven themselves capable of living with cognitive dissonance.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:20 AM (LD21B)
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 02:14 PM (tqwMN)
Bullshit. If Jobs was such a great entrepreneur he would have dealt with it. But just like every human being that wants to make a buck he built his shit with cheap chinese slave labor and then proceeded to lecture everyone on social justice. Screw this turning him into something he wasn't.
Posted by: Ma Bell at October 06, 2011 10:20 AM (uVuwp)
________
Ironic, as the only thing I liked about the Apple II was the ability to easily pop the top and drop some hardware in. The Apple II to which I was most attached had a Softcard, 8" DSDD floppies, an 80-character screen, and a snazzy custom craphics card (uPD7220-based) with a touchscreen (in 1983!). It ran CP/M.
Posted by: Anachronda at October 06, 2011 10:20 AM (IrbU4)
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 02:19 PM (tqwMN)
I stand, slightly, corrected.Thank you. It's not entirely innovative, now is it? Just maybe improved on the existing? Or STOLEN!!!!!!!111!!!!!11!!11!!
But he was the god of all technology and brilliant...
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:21 AM (UK9cE)
Because early 90s fab technology couldn't make CISC chips faster than the 80486/68040. Intel, with their vast resources, made a RISC chip and bolted an x86 translator onto it to create the Pentium. (All x86 chips to this day are a RISC core with an x86 translator, including AMD's). Motorola was much smaller so they just plain made a RISC chip.
Loved the 680x0 though, best chip family ever for assembly programmers.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:22 AM (tqwMN)
This has nothing to do with the moral repugnance of the Chinese Government and current culture- those are absolutely repugnant.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 02:20 PM (8y9MW)
To each, their own.
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:22 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2011 10:23 AM (RD7QR)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 02:20 PM (8y9MW)
It's actually debatable whether outsourcing for cheaper labor really does help the bottom line in the long run.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:24 AM (LD21B)
Available is not the same as saying that "Gamers" will ever buy macs in great numbers. On my sliding scale (from above) far more gamers are also Linux Geeks than are members of the Cult of Jobs.
Ya....I guess I'm just naive like that......
Well, really, this is a story. It'll probably be "the" story until the end of the week, and then the media will move on.
Of course, if you ever expect them to report seriously on Fast & Furious (Watergate didn't have a body count), Solyndra, Light Squared, etc., you're just dreaming anyway.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:24 AM (8y9MW)
BSD is licensed such that you can use it in commercial products and choose to share the modified source code or not. Apple *does* share their modified BSD code in a project called Darwin. (Safari's code is also open-sourced as "WebKit" and used in Google Chrome and Android, Palm WebOS, and Linux's KDE desktop).
Microsoft OTOH used portions of BSD to create the networking components in Windows and that code was *not* shared back.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:24 AM (tqwMN)
Unix, the father of all operating systems, copied by all.
_______
Meh. I tolerate Unix, but my heart belongs to VMS. And CP/M. And RT-11.
Posted by: Anachronda at October 06, 2011 10:24 AM (xGZ+b)
Bullshit. If Jobs was such a great entrepreneur he would have dealt with it. But just like every human being that wants to make a buck he built his shit with cheap chinese slave labor and then proceeded to lecture everyone on social justice. Screw this turning him into something he wasn't.
Posted by: Ma Bell at October 06, 2011 02:20 PM (uVuwp)
This.
Posted by: Heartless SOB Hobbit at October 06, 2011 10:24 AM (EL+OC)
You mean like every other company has just dealt with it? Talk about you nuclear grade bullshit.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2011 10:25 AM (jx2j9)
It's actually debatable whether outsourcing for cheaper labor really does help the bottom line in the long run.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 02:24 PM (LD21B)
not really but it isn't just the labor, it's also the complete lack of regulations.
Posted by: robtr at October 06, 2011 10:25 AM (MtwBb)
They never were able to get a G5 into a laptop, nor were they able to get one to run @ 3GHz. Jobs specifically mentioned those two issues as part of the reasoning behind the switch to Intel during the 2005 WWDC keynote.
Posted by: Gran at October 06, 2011 10:26 AM (PxzSs)
IIRC, Motorola sort of hit a wall with their architecture. Then they marked time for a while and Jobs gave them the finger and jumped to Intel. I don't recall if they ever put a G5 in a laptop and I'm too busy to google it, but that might have been an issue too.
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2011 02:23 PM (RD7QR)
It all comes down to cost. Moto didn't have the income to continue to finance chip design to produce the high speeds needed for the market. Intel's architecture may have started out worse in some respects, but when they made it do everything fast, that became unimportant.
Its the same reason RISC machines died out (doing small instructions fast). Once Intel optimized its complex instructions to be just as fast as the simple ones, the line had no place to live.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 10:27 AM (z1N6a)
Yeah, but that ease of upgrading dynamic switched in the 90's. Really, with Windows 95: Microsoft became the 800-lb gorilla, and started forcing the various PC part manufacturers to adhere to their standards. Once that started happening, it became very, very easy to upgrade a PC.
It's actually debatable whether outsourcing for cheaper labor really does help the bottom line in the long run.
And, apparently, Apple settled that debate to their satisfaction.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:27 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: t-bird at October 06, 2011 10:27 AM (FcR7P)
not to mention the switch to kreppier hard drives which I guess helps drive sales of Time Capsule/Time Machine!!!
Posted by: HeartbrokenBlackOrchid at October 06, 2011 02:20 PM (SB0V2)
The only explanation I can come up with is that since more Intel chips are produced they could lower their production costs by changing to them.
Once again the accountants triumph.
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 10:28 AM (OtQXp)
Ya....I guess I'm just naive like that......
Posted by: MrObvious at October 06, 2011 02:19 PM (2uovW)
Me too...
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 10:28 AM (OtQXp)
Sorry to dump on Macs, but I never got the whole arguement that Macs were superior hardware-wise. Maybe some better software, but hardware? Not a fucking chance!!!
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 10:28 AM (GQ8sn)
________
I've done a little 680x0. I thought it was a poor imitation of the PDP-11.
Posted by: Anachronda at October 06, 2011 10:29 AM (NmR1a)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 02:27 PM (8y9MW)
To their satisfaction, but to our detriment. Some economists were making the point that outsourcing isn't all its cracked up to be and hurts our economy more than it helps. Can't recall where I was reading this though.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:29 AM (LD21B)
Yup. Intel is flat-out *amazing* on manufacturing and process tech. Less so on design - the Pentium 4 hit a wall and their Israeli team had to bail them out (while under daily fire from Palestinian rockets, no less). So if you use a PC or Intel-based Mac, thank the Joooos.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:29 AM (tqwMN)
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 02:28 PM (GQ8sn)
They are white! Or transparent! or whatever!!! All the cool kids have one!
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 10:30 AM (z1N6a)
Dealt with it how? By allowing his company to go under, all in the name of social responsibility? That's crap. Apple used the cheapest available labor to build their machines. If I owned stock in Apple I would have been pissed if they decided to build them in an expensive place in the name of social responsibility.
Apple's responsibility is to the bottom line and the law. And that is it. If you choose not to buy Apple products because they use cheap Chinese labor? Good for you.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sdildo (NJConservative) at October 06, 2011 10:30 AM (xFdca)
I should add that, yes, we definitely need to deregulate. Politicians have been mucking around way to much the past few decades and hurts us pretty badly actually.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:30 AM (LD21B)
I've done a little 680x0. I thought it was a poor imitation of the PDP-11.
Posted by: Anachronda at October 06, 2011 02:29 PM (NmR1a)
I probably still have that instruction set in my head. And octal notation.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 10:31 AM (z1N6a)
He did deal with it. He dealt with it by outsourcing his manufacturing. If you're claiming any "entrepreneur" would be able to magically make 20/man-hour manufacturing cost the same as 5/man-hour manufacturing, you're dreaming.
He might have been able to move to a right-to-work state and get it somewhat cheaper, but then he would have had the same headaches that Boeing has had trying to open a new plant.
By just moving off-shore, he saved himself a lot of hassle. It's why so many other companies have done the same thing- many of them also moving manufacturing mostly to China.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:32 AM (8y9MW)
He didn't. Sometimes he improved those things, sometimes he didn't, but people fawned on it anyways. One of the great ironies about Apple computers is that they were always far more 'big-brother' like than anyone else. If you bought a Mac, you HAD to have their OS. You HAD to use their video cards. You HAD to use their peripherals. x86 and compatibles was where all of the freedom was.
What Jobs was good at was producing a good quality, easy-to-use line of products, with cult-creating advertising. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying it isn't the same as inventing the tablet -- which has been around in one form or another since the mid 90's. Heck, since the mid-80's if you include the primitive TRS-80 portable Tandy 102. Jobs didn't invent the mouse or the GUI -- he stole that from Xerox (just like Gates). Jobs didn't invent the personal computer -- there were kits available earlier, and the first Apples were sold as kits. There's not a lot, if anything, that he invented -- but he did make solid improvements to things, especially with regards to ease-of-use for non technical people. And that ain't bad.
Just don't get carried away -- ZOMG, Jobs invented the WORLD worship him.
Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at October 06, 2011 10:32 AM (jqHOY)
Why should Apple or Steve Jobs give a shit whether it hurts our economy? As long as it helps Apple computer, it is the correct way of running the business.
The last time I checked this was still (sort of) a market economy.
Fucking bleeding-heart-liberals in conservative clothing.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sdildo (NJConservative) at October 06, 2011 10:32 AM (xFdca)
Anyone falling for the "it's in white!!!" sales pitch is a fucking retard.
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 10:33 AM (GQ8sn)
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:33 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 02:22 PM (tqwMN)
Indeed!
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 10:34 AM (OtQXp)
Dealt with it how? By allowing his company to go under, all in the name of social responsibility? That's crap. Apple used the cheapest available labor to build their
Isn't that what I pointed out? Jobs preached social responsibility to the rest of the Americans but goes to China to use their cheap labor and no regulations. Talk about major hipocrasy here.
Posted by: Ma Bell at October 06, 2011 10:34 AM (uVuwp)
Posted by: Berserker at October 06, 2011 10:34 AM (FMbng)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 10:34 AM (i6RpT)
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 02:33 PM (GQ8sn)
you just described the demographic.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 10:34 AM (z1N6a)
Wow. False.
Boeing is suffering in an Obamanation. Apple would've had no such issue relocating in the 90's.
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:35 AM (UK9cE)
Posted by: Mindy smells nice at October 06, 2011 10:35 AM (0RSSz)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 10:35 AM (i6RpT)
THIS!!!!
Try creating an App for their store and see if it passes their tyrannical approval board.
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 10:35 AM (GQ8sn)
And other economists disagree. By those products being cheaper, people were able to do more with their money.
Apple is either the biggest, or second biggest (in terms of worth) company in America. They didn't get there by making bad decisions. Or, rather, they made enough good decisions to get them past the bad ones they made.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:35 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: © Sponge
Thank you! I thought I was crazy for hating iTunes with a white hot passion.
Posted by: Hobbitopoly at October 06, 2011 10:36 AM (0uljm)
Posted by: joncelli at October 06, 2011 10:36 AM (RD7QR)
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 02:33 PM (GQ8sn)
We are the 99%!
Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama (vivisect k1rwm with a steam-powered fuckshovel) at October 06, 2011 10:36 AM (ggRof)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 02:34 PM (i6RpT)
I do that with PCs. Have for decades.
My current PC is a single 23 inch touch screen all in one. It doesn't even have a box. The mouse and keyboard are wireless.
You like the Mac, fine. But the Windows world works the same way, execept that they could never get away with abandoning the installed base like Apple did a few times over.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 10:37 AM (z1N6a)
Posted by: JackStraw at October 06, 2011 10:37 AM (TMB3S)
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2011 10:38 AM (jx2j9)
Posted by: t-bird at October 06, 2011 10:38 AM (FcR7P)
_______
Heh. Only thing I use iTunes for is feeding my iPhone and iPod. When I want to actually listen to music or watch video, it's VLC...
Posted by: Anachronda at October 06, 2011 10:38 AM (FzhYM)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 02:34 PM (i6RpT)
Wow. Really? You building your own stuff bought from Fry's that was already outdated when you got it?
Apple releases new shit just like everyone else. Upgrade, if you can, but are driven to buy new. iPhones were on a 6 to 8 month pace when they first came out. If you buy the right hardware, it'll last years, not months. My current home PC is over a year old....the one before that was about 5 years, but he lack of PCIx was rendering it needing replacement. Games need FPS.......50 to 70 wasn't cutting it anymore.
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:38 AM (UK9cE)
I like Steve Jobs and all, but the gaming industry drove innovation in the computer industry a thousand times more than he could ever have hoped to do. For most of the computer's history, the only thing that utilized a computer's full horsepower was video games. They were the demand which drove Moore's Law.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 06, 2011 10:38 AM (FkKjr)
The last time I checked this was still (sort of) a market economy.
Fucking bleeding-heart-liberals in conservative clothing.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sdildo (NJConservative) at October 06, 2011 02:32 PM (xFdca)
Ok, so you obviously love it when we lose jobs. Good for you.
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:39 AM (LD21B)
This is why I call it the "Cult of Jobs." But, all-in-all, he did more for consumer electronics than any single other man, and Apple did more than any single other company.
Boeing is suffering in an Obamanation. Apple would've had no such issue relocating in the 90's.
Yes, because the NRLB never tried to make it a pain to move jobs out of a union state into a right-to-work state before the SCOAMF became President. The NRLB has been a thorn in FedEx's side more-or-less since their inception. It might not have been as bad as what Boeing is going through, but I guarantee it would have caused them more trouble than just hiring a Chinese company to deal with it.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:40 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 10:40 AM (i6RpT)
Posted by: t-bird at October 06, 2011 10:40 AM (FcR7P)
And they are also retarded for ever forking over money for that "feature".
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 10:41 AM (GQ8sn)
Posted by: KG at October 06, 2011 10:41 AM (LD21B)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 10:43 AM (i6RpT)
(As a big fan of the demoscene, which is the one thing in favor of European socialism, I liked both machines).
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:43 AM (tqwMN)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 10:44 AM (i6RpT)
I still have my old i386 Windows 3.1 box that runs. Never upgraded it. It all depends on what parts are inside.
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 10:44 AM (GQ8sn)
I've got a Commodore emulator on my desktop right now!!! Might break out some GIJoe here in a minute.
Posted by: © Sponge at October 06, 2011 10:45 AM (UK9cE)
I disagree. They certainly drove the hardware- as you point out, they're the only things that really use the full horsepower of most machines. But, beyond being able to pull up the game and play, Gamers were never the drivers behind consumer innovations like Gmail (or webmail in general) or the simplified Mac OS. That was other consumers- who out number gamers easily, and always have.
Gamers, at first, mostly laughed at netbooks. They didn't, by and large, care about changes to the OS- beyond how they affected stability.
On the other hand, the "consumer" loved the netbook- and then the tablet. They love the iPhone and other consumer smartphones. Before that, it was the "consumer" who drove innovations like speech-to-text, email clients, and most of the innovations behind Microsoft Office. Gamers didn't do that, because gamers didn't care.
And it was Steve Jobs, when he went back to Apple in 97, who fully embraced that "consumer" mentality. No one else has been as successful in that embrace as he was.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 10:46 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Hedgehog at October 06, 2011 10:46 AM (ChX6w)
I believe that. Games are the only damn thing that ever made me get a new computer every so often, or upgrading the one i had, because the old computer always worked for everything else I needed it for. Games were always the thing that pushed me to upgrade. The pos I'm on now is a 6-7 year old dell, it does everything i need, but I stopped playing games on it 5 years ago because I'm more of a game console dude. I'll use it until it dies, or if some "PC only" game is released that is so frigging intense it warrants a new PC, so again its all about the games.
Posted by: Berserker at October 06, 2011 10:47 AM (FMbng)
I never said anything about the State telling us what to buy. I'm commenting on the ability of certain people to shut off their decision making ability when something shiny and white is shoved in front of their faces.
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 10:48 AM (GQ8sn)
Second highest corporate taxes in the industrialized world. America could be competitive, but it won't be as long as corporations are evil. It also won't be as long as American schools perform as poorly as they do.
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at October 06, 2011 10:48 AM (jx2j9)
Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at October 06, 2011 10:50 AM (jqHOY)
I'm upgrading my video card for Battlefield 3. Did it a couple of times before because of a new game that I wanted to play. Also bought 2 more monitors because I wanted the Eyefinity 3x1 experience. Let me tell you, Eyefinity kicks ass!!!
Posted by: EC at October 06, 2011 10:50 AM (GQ8sn)
C64 vs. Atari 800 vs. Apple II!
Amiga vs. ST!
That was the stuff
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:51 AM (tqwMN)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at October 06, 2011 02:46 PM (8y9MW)
They've been trying to push Net PCs at everyone for thirty years. Its hardly a new idea and not customer driven. Its the old big machine dumb terminal motif.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 10:51 AM (z1N6a)
Posted by: nevergiveup at October 06, 2011 02:43 PM (i6RpT)
I never had a single PC fail due to hardware issues in thirty years. At home or at work.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 10:53 AM (z1N6a)
C64 vs. Atari 800 vs. Apple II!
Amiga vs. ST!
That was the stuff
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 02:51 PM (tqwMN)
U1100 vs. IBM 360
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 10:55 AM (OtQXp)
Similarly, the iPad wouldn't have sold without local apps and sufficient CPU and GPU power to make them interesting.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 10:55 AM (tqwMN)
Similarly, the iPad wouldn't have sold without local apps and sufficient CPU and GPU power to make them interesting.
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 02:55 PM (tqwMN)
That's the reason the net PC concept never works - the performance is better locally even with good networks and people notice. There's always been a market for portability, especially at a price point where it doesn't have to be your main machine.
Having had a tablet for 4 years now, I rarely use it that way anymore because it is clumsy even with good handwriting recognition. I suspect most pads will be used more like mini TVs in the end. Its surprising how often even web browsing requires character input.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 11:02 AM (z1N6a)
Early home PC users were mostly gamers. In 1988, when your dial-up could connect to Prodigy, there wasn't much you could do with a PC except word processing. Up until the late 90s, there was no reason for an ordinary person to have a computer if they weren't planning to play games. They sure as hell didn't need anything beyond an apple II in terms of processing power.
They didn't, by and large, care about changes to the OS- beyond how they affected stability.
Game Developers care very much about the OS. Microsoft was incredibly smart in that they tried to make developing games for Windows as easy as they could. That coupled with MS Office is why they still enjoy a near monopoly on Operating Systems.
Before that, it was the "consumer" who drove innovations like speech-to-text
Speech to text wouldn't exist if gamers didn't drive the sound card industry to beyond the internal speaker.
email clients
Fast networks were developed with gaming in mind. The move from dial-up to LAN and internet was driven by people hungry for online play with friends.
most of the innovations behind Microsoft Office
The business world drove that, not the home consumer.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 06, 2011 11:03 AM (FkKjr)
U1100 vs. IBM 360
Posted by: Nighthawk at October 06, 2011 02:55 PM (OtQXp)
9 bit bytes versus 8 bit bytes.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 11:03 AM (z1N6a)
Fast networks were developed with gaming in mind. The move from dial-up to LAN and internet was driven by people hungry for online play with friends.
E mail is a dirt simple app that worked well without databases with 1970 powered machines. It really doesn't drive anything.
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 11:05 AM (z1N6a)
Posted by: Oldcat at October 06, 2011 03:05 PM (z1N6a)
My point was there is a difference between using email with dial-up and using it on a LAN. Without the gaming industry, we'd be using dial-up right now.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 06, 2011 11:09 AM (FkKjr)
Steve Jobs made a lot of money under capitalism, but this showed the weaknesses of capitalism, not its strengths.
No need to revisit the entire history - just remember the Amiga in comparison to what Apple was producing at the time.
We have to be honest - the best does not always win out in the free market.
Posted by: Chuckit at October 06, 2011 11:14 AM (v8U7g)
They've been trying to push Net PCs at everyone for
thirty years. Its hardly a new idea and not customer driven. Its the old
big machine dumb terminal motif.
Yeah. And now they push 'cloud computing', where nothing's really yours.
I...really don't need to say anything more about that.
Posted by: Christine O'Notawitch at October 06, 2011 11:20 AM (GBXon)
79:
I fought the good fight in 1990.
I worked in an all VMS shop and brought in a Sun server with UNIX ( Sun OS )
We actually physically battled at the doorway to the equipment room, 4 VMS guys ( they were heavy weights 200lb + ) vs. 4 SUN nerds, trying to move a Sun server the size of a refrigerator in to the room.
The pushing match went on for minutes but the nerds won.
We then wore "sun" glasses at work to differentiate ourselves.
Now that's computing, not clicking on an phone icon.
Posted by: NortonPete at October 06, 2011 11:31 AM (8zxoH)
Posted by: steevy at October 06, 2011 12:05 PM (fyOgS)
_______
Still working with VMS here. PCs on the desk, of course, but my serious stuff either runs on or supports the VMS boxes.
By "supports", I mean embedded work. At the moment, either PowerPC/vxWorks or ARM/bare metal.
Posted by: Anachronda likes PDP-8s, too at October 06, 2011 12:15 PM (NmR1a)
Posted by: deadrody at October 06, 2011 12:44 PM (eOvu0)
Posted by: Ian S. at October 06, 2011 02:14 PM (tqwMN)
Bullshit. If Jobs was such a great entrepreneur he would have dealt with it. But just like every human being that wants to make a buck he built his shit with cheap chinese slave labor and then proceeded to lecture everyone on social justice. Screw this turning him into something he wasn't.
Posted by: Ma BellJeez, who stuck the pineapple up your ass. Every time you comment all I feel are waves of bitter resentment and hate coming from you. WTF? I'm no SJ fan but the man had vision and drive. He lived the American Dream and I give him a hell of a lot of credit for having the balls to go for it and not whine about unfair everything is in life. California has made it impossible to manufacture anything in this state. I don't blame Job's for going offshore. He had stockholders to answer to not guarantee everyone a fucking job. You need to get off your high horse and open your eyes and take a deep breath.
Posted by: mpfs, TPT at October 06, 2011 01:39 PM (iYbLN)
The man had the right to donate to whatever candidates & organizations he chose, that was his business & I don't much care. (Unlike the Obama administration, which cares quite a lot about who & what corporate CEOs donate to.)
But I don't have any recollection of Steve Jobs going around sermonizing progressive politics from his high-profile pulpit, publicly stumping for candidates, or self-righteously moralizing about anything. The only thing he preached was the gospel of Apple. Knock him for that if you like; but the charge of political hypocrisy is bullshit.
He was no Al Gore. No Bono. No Warren Buffett.
Posted by: lael at October 06, 2011 02:12 PM (f/Nbz)
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2. One of my very favorite movies is "The Pirates of Silicon Valley" and while I am still a PC Guy, I have an iPod and an iPhone and I am really sad about Steve Jobs death. Not because of the Apple stuff, but because he was a dreamer...with a capital "D". He thought of new things, then made them real. How many guys like that running around nowadays?
Posted by: Porkkky at October 06, 2011 08:50 PM (46ffO)
The Intel camp turned things from an engineering beauty contest into a marketing fight. In a fight you pick strong and ugly over elegant and beautiful; Mike Tyson vs Cindy Crawford in a street brawl is no contest.
I've programmed both machines at the assembly language level - The Motorola architecture is far superior - much easier to program and keep bug free - all those big beautiful general purpose registers. Intel simply beat them into the ground with an ugly stick.
And yes I've built my own machines from scratch, and yes I know how to solder, and yes I've used obscure Linux distributions on them since 1995... but no, I don't look down my nose at anybody. I also have an Apple and a Windows box.
Posted by: An Observation at October 07, 2011 09:26 AM (ylhEn)
Posted by: An Observation at October 07, 2011 10:36 AM (ylhEn)
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Posted by: I am Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8! at October 06, 2011 09:50 AM (e8T35)