1 First!

2 That's what I've been pointing out for a while now: we cannot get what we need to do right now. It can't be done, period. So we have to get what we can and fight for the guys to do a better job next time. That's how politics works, and its NEVER going to be different. Get what you can, a little at a time.

This is a long term fight. If you think you can get it all at once and the hell with everyone if you cannot, grow up. Stop thinking like a child and understand that nothing comes without a fight, and the damage that was done took a century to get here, and will take a long time to repair. There is NO OTHER WAY to do this except a direct act of God or some horrific disaster that forces us to start from scratch.

This isn't the movies. It won't get wrapped up in 90 minutes with a sudden reversal and one guy clapping which is slowly joined by everyone else. It is slow, ugly, and painful.

3

With actual conservatives leading the show.

Ace, that assumes we get them.  You know, like we thought we got them this time.

And, if you thought the MFM was carrying the water for Obama in 2008, you ain't see nothing yet.

Nothing good comes out of any debt deal we get.  Nothing.  We're just choosing how quickly we want to go belly up right now.  So when the economic chickens come home to rooooooost, you know, you just know, the MFM is going to lay that right on the Republican doorstep.  The weight of all that media is a lot to overcome.

4 Shut it down, I say. It's not great the way it is.

5 Too prolix.

6 what's wrong with drinking during the day?

7
Did Sarah Palin write this for you?

8 >>>Ace, that assumes we get them. You know, like we thought we got them this time. We didn't? How did Ryan's budget get passed?

9 I'm off to brush Ace's Rainbow Powered Unicorn.

10 I feel like the boy who cried TARP. I was  for TARP because I thought it was the right thing, but in retrospect it was a mistake. See, I'm pretty sure this time the wolf is here. I think we have to go with this shit sandwhich for now.

11 a united Republican government -- we had that from 2003 to 2007, and it was a failure

A failure?  How can you say that?!!  After we spent so much of our money making your lives better?  I'm shocked by your ingratitude.

12 good analysis. I've been reading FDL, DKos, and TalkLeft more of late - their comments sections are going bat-shit crazier than anything on the right. Two more Jay Carney WH Press briefings on this, though - and the press corps will turn like a scorned woman on Obama. .

13

We did, just not enough. And we won't get enough until the next election, and without them nothing changes.

14

Posted by: ace at July 28, 2011 04:04 PM (pbzFf)

Now talk to me about the Senate.  You know, the body that's killing us right now?

FWIW, I agree with you.  I'm just pointing out we need a wave like 1980, we thought we got it this time, and we came up short.

15 What is truth?  Is truth unchanging socks?

16 I don't think most people who belong to the "shut it down now" crowd are even capable of even processing the argument you're making here.  It's all about externalizing their anger and Making A Statement Even If It Destroys The Country for them.

17
Ace this is a great post.  Maybe you will force people to calm down, pause and think.

Obama has worked both sides into a frenzy.

18 Heck of a post.

19 The phrase is: "Prepare the battlespace".

The first step in a very long number of battles we -should- want is to separate the "good stuff" from the "bad stuff". It's hard to muster overwhelming opposition to basically "just" renaming crap.

But it's mighty handy when it comes time to actually do the cuts.

The list of people want "substantial cuts to SS" is a different list than the list that want "substantial cuts to the welfare aspects of SS".

20 I don't think I disagree with the Shut it Down Now crowd as far as endgame, but I have changed my mind about the pathway to get there.

At least you heard us out.  I'm just saddened that I have failed to convince anyone that winning by losing is a chimera.

21 My friend and I were discussing this very thing yesterday. Both of us want to roll back the progressive hell that we have descended into.

But

How did we get into that position?  They played the long game with incrementalism. The only way reverse that is by smartly playing the long game in reverse. The conservatives have to sort of tread water right now and take a small bit here. Maybe another small bit later. And then begin a real rollback after Nov 2012.

Play smart.

BTW just saw a HotAir linked article from Ohio that Jim Jordan might be redistricted out for his open revolt. (you can't win if they kick you out of the game dude)

22

So we pass a bill that does not reduce the deficit one cent. Not a penny. All it does is slightly slow the growth of the deficit a little bit over the next ten years. Whoopee Do. We still go broke.

And now we compromise by voting for it, knowing that it cannot ever go anywhere. Golly, if I were cynical, I would think this is purely politics.  

23 At what point does 'playing the long game' become just another excuse to cede power to the professional class?

We have been 'playing the long game' since at least 1994 ('Contract with America') and the 'leadership' has always come up with an excuse -- 'we only control 1/2 of 1/3 of the govt.'; 'we don't have a veto proof majority'; 'the time isn't right to defund obamacare / reform the dept of education / roll back intrusive regulations / vote our principles'; 'we cannot blah, blah, blah'.

Giving the overspender in chief a shiny new credit card now in exchange for maybe getting the opportunity during the next 10 years to actually reduce spending.

Remember that Speaker Boo-Hoo's plan doesn't cut anything (even if he actually gets a few pitiful billion this year) because it affirms obama's huge spending increases over the last 2 years.

If Boo-Hoo had rolled back spending to Bush levels that would at least have been something.

24 Sarah chimes in.

http://on.fb.me/nVeVpL

25 "But my point is that while previous attempts to actually cut government spending have been politically costly, with The People rising up in protest, and politicians running away in fear, lately The People's response has been somewhere between muted and mildly supportive, and politicians have not run away." Fuck the people's response. Nothing of significance will happen until real conservatives shed all fears of public outcry and negative media portrayal. The people? Do you live in the same country I do? Most of the people here are idiots with nothing to say. That's their right, but at this point I don't give a fuck what they think. Fix this shit, then worry about the reaction. The "people" can go ride a mountain of dicks.

26 We've been talking about the long game since Ronald Reagan. This IS the long game. All of this is just a charade that does nothing to reduce real spending or pay down the national debt. Even if we win the next few elections, we will still have entrenched RINO's who will not want to cut off their blood-sucking tentacles that are in our pockets. And we will still face trillions more in debt and deficit. I'm sorry, Ace. I respect you, Thomas Sowell and Bolton. But this madness has got to stop. We have got to stand with people like DeMint, Bachmann, Rand Paul and Connie Mack to have real reform, real debt reduction and a return to fiscal sanity. Let the chips fall where they may.

27 Now, I actually don't know if we would get "blamed."

/taps hand on large drum of ink

Don't know? Have I not taught you much?

28

"In 2012, there is a good, and rising, chance, of not merely having a united Republican government -- we had that from 2003 to 2007, and it was a failure -- but of having a united conservative government."

Man, I hope so. That 2060 thing from Isaac Newton is making more and more sense every day. Thanks for the positive vibe. Sometimes I feel like the End Times are coming and it gets a bit... what, uh.. a bit heavy. Better yet, scary. If the next dictator is really exponentially worse than hitler and his animals, that is scary. Doesn't seem possible, but, geez. That's what the Bible says, isn't it? And if Newton spent his life working to glorify the God he believed in, how can I, with a puny IQ in comparison, argue with him?

29 Take comfort that what cannot continue, won't.

30

Great points, Ace.

However, at some point, you have to call the other guy's hand.  It's obviouse Captain Clueless has given Harry and Chucky their marching orders - nothing goes through without tax increases.  That is unacceptable.

Let's not forget that Obamacare - with all of its tax increases - starts kicking in at the beginning of 2013, and the Bush tax cuts expire at the same time.  He's already got money that's going to be coming in from those tax increases.  He doesn't need any more.

Tell the Senate this is as good as they're going to get; along with that, inform them that if Barky tries to circumvent the House by trying to use the 14th Amendment, they will start impeachment proceedings.

We still have the upper hand, and Obama and the Senate Dems know it.

The Senate Dems are facing re-election in a few short months, and they saw what happened in the House in 2010 (and how much support Obama gave those members).  They're not stupid, and they care more about their own jobs than about Obama's.

Call their bluff, let the chips fall where they may.  Put the ball in the Dems' court, and let them sweat for a while.

31 17 I don't think most people who belong to the "shut it down now" crowd are even capable of even processing the argument you're making here.  It's all about externalizing their anger and Making A Statement Even If It Destroys The Country for them.

Posted by: Jeff B. at July 28, 2011 04:07 PM (hIWe1)

Dear Jeff,

what in history makes you think that ANY of Ace's hopes and wishes will come true without a collapse and rebuild?

32 I can't wait to hear T-Paw's take on this.

33 Nothing of significance will happen until real conservatives shed all fears of public outcry and negative media portrayal.

We don't have the votes.

Most of the people here are idiots with nothing to say.

Sure, but they vote.

34 so timmmmmayyyy has a leaker?

35 Now, I actually don't know if we would get "blamed." Honestly, I believe that is overstated. I do sort of agree with people who think we wouldn't get blamed.

I think your instincts are right, we (conservatives and republicans) will get blamed.  However I also think the Repub Prez candidate will not.  I don't think it will transfer to him or her, because people will also recognize the OdipO doesn't have what it takes to lead to a solution.

36 This bill is a false choice.It does nothing.It's a dead end.It won't lead to a better deal "down the road".

37 You are ignoring another part of the problem though.

Even if the Republicans are serious this time and they are just waiting on reinforcements which they may or may not get, we are still trillions more in debt, making any fix harder - presuming there is not a collapse between now and then.

38 To GOP freshmen: "Everyone I talk to still believes in contested primaries."

39 Funny how 'making a deal' with the democrats has become more important to the republican leadership the doing what is right for the country

AGAIN

40 >>>what in history makes you think that ANY of Ace's hopes and wishes will come true without a collapse and rebuild? yeah, see, I think people who subscribe to this belief should henceforth be upfront about the fact that they are actively seeking a financial collapse of our country so they can then engage in their little fantasies of Reconstruction. Let us know your real agenda, which is collapse, misery, depression for 6 or 8 years, revolution, and outbreaks of civil violence.

41

We currently are holding the line on spending.

That's not good enough, of course. Government doubled in size in the last decade and 30% since Obama took office.

But if holding the line can set us up for real reform in 2012...

Ace

 

No we're not. We're currently against raising taxes further. That's it. We're still increasing spending. Most of which will be borrowed.

42 @2: Wait - when did I get traded to this side?

Funniest damn thing I've read all week. Well done, definitely.

43 Let's not forget that Obamacare - with all of its tax increases - starts kicking in at the beginning of 2013, and the Bush tax cuts expire at the same time.

The tax increases kick in in 2013, but the insurance changes and all that, which will probably have a more personal effect on people, will kick in in 2014.

44 Yea, wtf fellow Ohioans. I thought my state was slightly more moderate than they seem to be because it appears out all of the states where these public sector union fights are going on, Ohio is the one in which our side is going to lose and it's because of the people. Which is depressing. Kasich is getting killed in the polls and his bill is most likely going down in the fall. So dissappointed in my state.

45 With actual conservatives leading the show.

You can totally trust us this time!

46 Hostage taker with gun: "Sit down and shutup"

House GOP: "But, we want water, and pancakes"

Hostage taker: "Here's some water so you can live"

House GOP: "We want pancakes too"

BAM

47 We don't have the votes.

But we have the Debt Ceiling.  Dammit, that's why I wanted to win at least one house in Congress.  We could have just raised it $1T and forced a cut of 700B.

Leverage is not leverage if you won't use it.

48 Boehnor is doing the best he can when you only control 1/2 of 1/3 of government. If we would have the Senate that would be a different storey, but enough of the brain dead still voted for Commicrats in the Senate. 2012 is the end game with the Executive and Legislative branches controled by the GOP. If not, Obamacare becomes law and "The Children are Fucked" because their brain dead, 1960s hippie, maggot infested, dope smoking parents voted with their feelings and not their little pea sized brains.

49

How in the hell does The Narrative read "TEA PARTY = HATE"?

If these so-called liberty loving open minded social liberals would just really open their minds and check out some Bill Whittle and ZOMBIETIME Electric Tea Party Acid Test they'd see that they have a lot in common with the Tea Party.

50

Let us know your real agenda, which is collapse, misery, depression for 6 or 8 years, revolution, and outbreaks of civil violence.

Leave it to you to miss it's greatest appeal - it's succinct

51 The long game is not as long as you think it is.

52 No, ace, that isn't my 'real agenda', but we've seen this entire play over and over throughout history.

The simple fact is that the mathematics and human history predict this. I know you are an optimist, but I'm losing faith because NOTHING is changing; indeed it seems to be accelerating.

Maybe in 2013 I'll feel different. I'm sure I will, for a little while. I felt different in November 2010, and then they took office and it seemed to be 'business as usual'.

This isn't fool me once, twice, or even thrice. This is like time number 30 (ok, I made that number up).

53 "Never forget the people who sent you to Washington. Never forget the trust they placed in you to do the right thing"

54

One-party rule = massive spending, regardless of party. History shows.

Unless we get a fire-breather in the WH, spending will increase unabated.

Which eliminates everybody but 2 or 3 candidates.

55 so they are tearing apart the beohner bill on hannity....it's DOA

56 We are not going to get a filibuster proof Senate next fall.  OCare is here to stay.  Boned, we are.

57

Jeff B., once again chiming in to let all of you wingerz know how he's so smart and you're so stupid. I mean, he wastes no time coming out with the "they can't even comprehend" bit. One-note wonder.

Still haven't seen the plan that you guys have in mind for when Harry blocks the bill. I mean, you clearly are saying no shutdown, so tell me, where do you go from here?

58 My long game is great! So is my short game! How do you think I keep shooting above 100 every round?

59 The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
-Sun Tzu

60

Here is what I don't understand: why did we not ever tie Obamacare to this? It would have been a very simple deal to offer, a clean increase in the debt ceiling to January 2013 in exchange for repeal of Obamacare.

And since this is a long game, how about offering now a clean deal that extends the ceiling to 2013 in exchange for repeal of both Obamacare and the Budget Act of 1974. That Budget Act alone is a major reason that we are in the mess we are in right now and getting rid of it would be a much better start towards fiscal sanity than some mythical $1T in cuts over 10 years.

61 >>>No we're not. We're currently against raising taxes further. That's it. We're still increasing spending. Most of which will be borrowed. We're increasing the debt limit by $900 billion while proposing $917 billion in cut spending over 10 years. I sort of think we can cut spending that much (and will cut it more). One thing Obama says is kind of right: this debt limit increase is caused by spending *already completed by Congress.* Namely, the Democratic Congress of 2008-2010. We are not really "adding" more on top of this. This is just out the door already.

62 I've been trying to say a variation of this for the last few days. I still think that we have made significant progress in this battle even if something along the lines of the Boehner bill passes. What gets lost in all the back in forth is that the only person in DC who is still talking about raising taxes is Obama. The entire discussion is already about how much to cut. The debt limit has been passed about 60 times since the Reagan years but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find more than 5% of the population who knew that before this battle. Now, you'd be hard pressed to find 5% of the country who hasn't heard about it and people are getting engaged. This bomb has been building in DC since the days of FDR and decades of liberal dominance has layered more and more shit on top. It was never going to be fixed with one vote, you don't change a culture of dependence that fast. Get the best deal we can now and keep fighting. We are winning.

63 60 My long game is great! So is my short game! How do you think I keep shooting above 100 every round?

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at July 28, 2011 04:18 PM (c45xH)

Piker!

64 Fire breathers are scared of Rick Perry

65 Well, I have the advantage of not having my opion matter all that much. If polled, I'll say don't raise the cieling at all--overton window and all that. But I'm pretty cynical lately so I won't be surprised either way and won't expect improvement anytime soon. I'll go flush my 'R' vote into the liberal vortex that is the california electorate in 2012 and hopefully motivate myself to get some emergency supplies in front of the roosting chickens.

66 I think that an Obama veto of this bill would be a victory.He probably woudln't veto it though.He's not that stupid.

67 shut it down and cut all entitlements because no one is entitled to anything.....i can't spend money i don't have....i can't take a loan out on imaginary equity...neither should my employees.....

68 yeah, see, I think people who subscribe to this belief should henceforth be upfront about the fact that they are actively seeking a financial collapse of our country so they can then engage in their little fantasies of Reconstruction.

Let us know your real agenda, which is collapse, misery, depression for 6 or 8 years, revolution, and outbreaks of civil violence.

Posted by: ace

 

There is a difference between actively seeking this and a sober appraisal resulting in the conclusion that we will share the fate of the PIIGS. Mark Steyn for one thinks that this is likely. I doubt that he is 'actively seeking it'.

There is a difference between saying, if you continue to cut back on health care and assign a low priority to the care of the elderly and cleanliness in the wards of the NHS, people WILL die from infection, or that we'll see the elderly drinking from flower vases, and actively looking forward to those manifesting themselves.

69

Are we there? Honestly, I think we are getting there. The public seems to be in a Tea Party-ish mood. No, the public has not wrapped its head around what "cutting government spending" really means, but they at least have the impulse to do that. They favor that as a general proposition, a vague one to be sure, but they understand that's the right thing.

I'm not against the Boehner plan - I think it makes perfect sense for right now, as you have argued.  However, I think you have too rosy a picture of democracy.  I, unfortunately, have come to the conclusion that all democracies are ultimately doomed because teh electorate will always continue to vote istelf more and more entitlements and eventually bankrupt the nation.  there may be periods of semi-sanity, as we appear to be entering into now, but that will never last.  there are simply too many ignorant, uneducated voters; too many voters looking out for #1 at the expense of the nation; and too many voters who are marxist/socialist regardless of the facts. 

that isn't to say that there is a better system out there, just that I think all democracies will eventually go bankrupt and cease to exist (and I'm not necessarily saying next year - just eventually, unless technology gets us to the point where energy and healthcare costs are de minimus).  The only way I could see truly eliminating this possibility of a democracy eventually going bankrupt is having a constitution that prohibits a lot of entitlements, deficit spending, etc., so that the voters never have the choice to vote free lunches for themselves.

70 >>>Here is what I don't understand: why did we not ever tie Obamacare to this? It would have been a very simple deal to offer, a clean increase in the debt ceiling to January 2013 in exchange for repeal of Obamacare. I think because that seemed an impossible request and would not have been taken seriously. However, given that EVERYFUCKINGTHING we suggest is deemed an impossible request and not taken seriously -- I can think of no good reasons why we didn't, or why we shouldn't. It's actually pretty smart. The public wants ObamaCare repealed. Why not do this? Force Obama to veto a POPULAR bill? Even if it goes nowhere, why isn't it worth the exercise?

71 Ace, I'd be on board with everything you said if I thought the Republicans were going to benefit in 2012 if there's a debt ceiling increase.  The fact is, and we all know this, the media will give Obama ALL the credit for compromising, avoiding default, and saving us from economic armageddon, regardless of what agreement is made, as long as some agreement is made.  It's a lose/lose for conservatives.  The only way to really get people to really pay attention and start giving a shit about the out of control government & government spending is for something drastic to happen. 

72 "I don't think most people who belong to the "shut it down now" crowd are even capable of even processing the argument you're making here.  It's all about externalizing their anger and Making A Statement Even If It Destroys The Country for them."

I really don't think it is that - I think people feel the politicians are being untruthful and have cried wolf too many times and don't want to get taken AGAIN.

73 Boehner just hit a solid 24 no votes, which is the highest number he can afford to lose. One more no vote and he will have to pull this bill.

74

Obamacare was NEVER going to be on the table, per Obama.  That, and Joe's high-speed choo-choos.

Take Obamacare out of the budget altogether, and this whole argument would have never had to happen in the first place.  But Barky has to have his legacy, dontcha know.....

75

One thing Obama says is kind of right: this debt limit increase is caused by spending *already completed by Congress.* Namely, the Democratic Congress of 2008-2010.

We are not really "adding" more on top of this. This is just out the door already.

 

In Ace's Rino Paradise there are no Repo Men.

/rino snark

76 Long game? Like are we talking Daryle Lamonica Long here?

77 Ace, I'm obviously not as sophisticated as you. Please explain to me how it is that we cannot balance the budget now (when the only action required is literally no action) out of fear the GOP will be blamed for the economic consequences with 1/3 of the government under their control, but they'll totally slash away when they have 3/3 control and the economic consequences are worse two years from now?

It seems to me the better bet is to do it now, when there is at least some possibility the Dems will be blamed, or the whole thing will be a wash.

And talk of "mandates" doesn't apply unless you can provide a candidate who is running on balancing the cudget despite the fact that it will tank the economy in the short term.

78 "We don't have the votes." Only because we're not willing to be cutthroat motherfuckers and pander to the drooling class in order to gain power. Yeah, just like the Dems do, but are we in it to win it or what? It's politics. You have to play dirty. Tell the people what they want to hear, then pull out at the last minute and get around to fixing this limpdick state of affairs. I don't care how many fuddy-duddy family man Republican dipshits step up to the podium, we need ruthless bastards who won't squirm in the face of danger.

79 But that said, this is at least a new and somewhat encouraging argument for the Boener plan.

80 Sad to say, but if we win the whole enchilada in 2012 and enact big cuts ... the voters will probably revolt in 2014 and 2016.

Bush was cast as a minority hating slash and burn right-winger ... when the reality is he was a big govt compassionate conservative softie who caved on domestic policy to secure Dem support for his wars.

Imagine how the media will react to a Repub who actually cuts spending. Who actually raises the social security age and reforms (ie limits) Medicare entitlements. They will freak.

And the day a white Republican takes over the White House is the day the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the world are back on the street leading semi-riots ... probably joined with a fire-breathing Rodriguez or two.

It's gonna be nasty.

81 they just said the reid and boehner plans are essentially the same.  "They are just fighting over whether or not the next debt ceiling "discussion" occurs before or after the president's reelection"

It will be called the reid/boehner plan and will pass by monday and will do nothing.

hmmm regular Americans are saying what these guys are saying....

"they've missed a real opportunity to change the direction of spending in this country"

What they ultimately do will have a direct impact on the freedoms of every American.

they are essentially saying the handwriting is on the wall, this is a done deal.

82

his aids bragged, "We touched the third rail of politics and didn't get electrocuted."

A boastful disease?

83

We currently are holding the line on spending.

That's just frank bullshit, if you don't employ shoddy government accounting tricks like baseline budgeting. Which you aren't..

That's not good enough, of course. Government doubled in size in the last decade and 30% since Obama took office.

So...

Boehners plan is to go from doubling every 10 years to doubling every 9 years, 8 months.

We are, as a point of fact, not even holding the line.

84

We're increasing the debt limit by $900 billion while proposing $917 billion in cut spending over 10 years.

--------

So long as you understand the word "cut" means something different in congress than it does to you or me. Like, 10 years from now, with this plan, the budget will not be 900 billion less than it is today, or even equal where it is today. It will be a good deal larger than it is today.

85 Let's see what John Boehner has to say, back in 2010, when everything was possible if we had the House:

"With common-sense exceptions for seniors, veterans, and our troops, we will roll back government spending to pre-stimulus, pre-bailout levels, saving us at least $100 billion in the first year alone and putting us on a path to balance the budget and pay down the debt. We will also establish strict budget caps to limit federal spending from this point forward."

This was in something he called the "Pledge to America."

Now let's go back to arguing he's a political genius.

86 >>Why not do this? Force Obama to veto a POPULAR bill? It never would have gotten to Obama. It wouldn't even have gotten a vote in the Senate. See CCB.

87 75 Boehner just hit a solid 24 no votes, which is the highest number he can afford to lose. One more no vote and he will have to pull this bill.

Posted by: 80sBaby at July 28, 2011 04:21 PM (o2lIv)

Tim Scott (R-SC) told Cavuto he's a no. 

OBoehnerCare dead.

88 For those who cry the House Republicans are selling out the Tea Party: Let me remind you the House passed the Ryan Budget, one of the most controversial and politically risky documents in the history of the United States.
ace

----

Sure, when the House Republicans passed the Ryan Budget, they were representing their constituents who told them to pass the Ryan Budget.

If they sign on to Speaker Boo-Hoo's plan they are just like the husband who is always faithful to his wife ... right up until the moment that he cheats with that cute looking intern.




They passed the Ryan Budget.

Stand Firm.

Do not vote on anything else.


The MSM & the Dems are going to blame you anyway.  Don't worry about it.  You can't get the MSM on your side, don't even try.

89

We are winning.

Well said.

90 Ace, do you always have to write such a long post when again buckle under to Republican agendas? Do you have to psyche yourself up for it or something?

The goddamned "long game" is every four fucking years. When we win in 2012, it will be "Hey, lets play the long game here and wait to consolidate our gains and get a true mandate in 2014" then 2016, etc.

If these assclowns can't fix it now, they can never fix it.

And shame on you for buying into that crap. You're just gonna bust a nut writing a post about how this time! you are really fed up with the repubs when it eventually comes out that the 22b in cuts next year is actually a 5b increase.

Stop getting played.

91 And further, if we have time to dally nibbling on the edges of the budget, why do we not have time to just start a new party that actually intends to liberate Americans from government spending?

92

There is a difference between saying, if you continue to cut back on health care and assign a low priority to the care of the elderly and cleanliness in the wards of the NHS, people WILL die from infection, or that we'll see the elderly drinking from flower vases, and actively looking forward to those manifesting themselves.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 28, 2011 04:20 PM (6rX0K)

Thanks, Blue Hen. Well put.

93

It takes 2 elections to change anything.  2010 was just one election.  We need another one at a minimum.

Our government total sucks.  But, we have the government we deserve because our voters suck.  In short, we have to get more voters to stop sucking and we don't have much time left to do that.  Washington politicians are not the answer.  We are.

94 No we're not. We're currently against raising taxes further. That's it. We're still increasing spending. Most of which will be borrowed.

We're increasing the debt limit by $900 billion while proposing $917 billion in cut spending over 10 years.

I sort of think we can cut spending that much (and will cut it more).

One thing Obama says is kind of right: this debt limit increase is caused by spending *already completed by Congress.* Namely, the Democratic Congress of 2008-2010.

We are not really "adding" more on top of this. This is just out the door already.

Posted by: ace

I get the point about the long game. But since this is politics, relying on the Ghost of Congresses yet to Come is dishonest and I won't do it. We are making some cuts now, we are increasing spending at a rate lower than the Democrats want and that's it. What happens in the next Congress is part of the Long Game. Those other cuts can and should be counted when we have the ability to make them come to pass. That should adhere to the policy of being realistic and not doomcasting about our murky future.

95 Ruthless Bastard 2012

Get off my lawn

96 This is shifting to a question of tactics. I don't think I disagree with the Shut it Down Now crowd as far as endgame, but I have changed my mind about the pathway to get there.

I don't think any analysis of long term strategy can be complete absent an analysis of econogeddon at this point. Failing to take meaningful action here, now, in my mind makes it a real possibility before Nov '12. So ace what is your take on the risk of Econogeddon and how it might change the landscape well the social structure in general now that we have decided to stick with a 1.5T deficit until 2012?

97 And by "better voters,"... actual, verifiable voters.

98 We are winning.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 28, 2011 04:19 PM (TMB3S)

Charlie Sheen, baby!

99 Who the hell are these g'damn assholes in the GOP that are saying no to this bill?? It's not going to pass in the Senate. Make the Dems own the default.

Jesus H. Christ. What a bunch of cocksuckers.

100 I have ESP (I do- I do) and I am feeling disaster around the corner with this "won't vote for the Boenher (or however you spell it) plan." They don't get the long game at all. I read a great analogy about Gettysberg the other. This is Gettysburg - bloody awful - but a turning point. Yet - there were still two more years of war. I am shaking my head at (YES - YOU -) Michelle Bachmann and others like you - really - My ESP feels very doomy...

101
Even if it goes nowhere, why isn't it worth the exercise?

Posted by: ace at July 28, 2011 04:20 PM (pbzFf)

Honestly a best case scenario would be the Supremes (or hell, Kenedy) to strike it down due to the individual mandate and set in stone the outer contours of the commerce clause so we don't have to fight similar laws everytime a prog gets control of the white house and congress.

On the other hand, if Kenedy goes the other way, the mask will have slipped, and we no longer live in a republic....

102 Despite all these poker analogies everybody is making, we're pretty much guaranteed to lose right now, for two reasons:

1.  They have more votes.

2.  Frankly, we love our country more than they do, so we're scared to call their bluff.  They're holding the economy hostage, and we cannot assume that they won't pull the trigger.  They just might.

103 great post. as long as people focus their energy on winning in 2012 and not punishing republicans for not being 100% conservative on everything, we'll win.

104
2008: Hope and Change

2012:  Rise From The Ashes

105 Two quibbles.

First: there are not-just-a-few who believe that the "long-game" is meaningless, because we won't get to finish it.  I don't know that I'm one of them, but I don't know that I'm not, either.

Second: You need to read the Parable of the Talents in the New Testament (I think it's in both Matthew and Luke), and pay attention to part of the moral: if you can't show me that you can be trusted with what little you have, I won't be giving you any more.  Indeed, I'll take away what I did give you, and give it to someone more trustworthy.

Well, whether or not I full agree that we're staring collapse in the face, I do believe that the situation is bad enough that what I want is what is right for the country, not what will help assure success in next year's Presidential Race.  If the Republicans want my vote in '12, they need to show me why they deserve it now.  So far, some of them are doing that- but not nearly enough.

106 I think we have time to fix the fiscal problem, but it isn't a 'long game'. Maybe 5 to 8 years at most assuming no large disruptions, recessions, foreign events that require spending, etc.

That said, this isn't just about 2012. We have to lay the foundation for fiscal conservatism with an electoral demography that might not help us out much in the future.

We might have the 'time' for a few years technically, but one way or another we are going to have to choose a point and not move until it changes. We have a point now. Why wait for a potentially better point to make that move? A Constitutional Amendment will not pass in 2012 or any other time, so we have to train the party to not move from now until the end. I think ace's plan is basically telling Republicans that they are exempted from making difficult decisions until they control the entire government.

107 Great post, Ace.

108 I do not fully understand the whole backing the Boehner plan is "what we can get right now" idea. Have we not been told that if passed in the House the Senate will not pass it, no way no how? And further, if all the stars aligned and they did pass it, has Obama not indicated that it would not be signed?

So even if the terrible, no good, very bad Hobbitses of the Tea Party wing of the Republicans do bend, this deal that is not good, but the best we can get, has been already called dead on arrival. So its really not the best we can get, because we've been told already that we can't get it.

And this would be the SECOND House bill to be shot down right? The first was Cut Cap and Balance?  And STILL we will be told that the Republicans did not compromise, and that is why no agreement was reached.

If the argument is that some how by passing the Boehner plan, and making either the Senate vote it down, or the President veto it, we will win the blame game later when it doesn't pass, that seems unlikely to me.
 
Because the people will be told the Republicans are to blame for the failure to reach a compromise, regardless of how many bills based by the House and then shot down by the Dems.

109

<<We are not going to get a filibuster proof Senate next fall. OCare is here to stay. Boned, we are.>>

Parts of Obamacare passed through reconciliation, and they will be repealable by a simple 51-vote majority.

However, the best thing to do is have the individual mandate declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS - if that happens, the whole bill is dead in the water, as it ALL hinges on that aspect.

We also need to get the student loan program out of the single-payer hands of the federal government (one of the riders on the reconciled part of the bill).

We can get the reconciled part repealed with or without SCOTUS. That needs to be one of the first orders of business for the next Congress.

110 Obviously, the GOP has a miniscule propaganda arm when compared to the dems.  The only way to minimally combat the dem propaganda is to beat them at the advertising game.  A lot of the ads from the right are pretty benign when compared to dem ads that are typically mean and hyperbolic.  I think people would get behind a PAC that could produce some hard hitting ads that could win the propaganda war.  All they would have to do is tell the truth the dems.  That in itself would be mean enough.

111

Tim Scott was always a solid no.

Again, though, if this thing is expected to pass the Senate, Boehner shouldn't need ALL of the Rs. If he thinks the Senate Dems are voting for it, he should damn well expect a few House Dems to vote for it as well.

112 As regards the post- Ace, yer prolly right that this is the best deal possible given the pieces on the board/facts on the ground/disposition of the gape jawed masses taking their brainthinkies from the MFM.

As such- okay let's take our win, weak as it is, and soldier on I suppose.

That said- the fact that the gaping, titanic abyss of imminent financial disaster we are facing was somehow "framed" right the feck out of the picture in the last couple weeks' discussion by the vast majority of the players (ryan and some others excepted) speaks volumes about how absolutely demented our society has become. And hoo feckin' ray, a mincing, stuttering jackass is in his special drum major outfit is prancing in front of this doomsday parade. WAF WAF WAF, 1000 times WAF.

Dunno bout y'all, but I'm learnin' Spanish and/or Portueguese and packing my bags- this shithouse is fixing to be goin' up in flames, like in the next 3 - 4 years. I'm gittin' ready to jet to the soon to be built med facilities in Costa rica to push a broom, or off to get lost in the bush of Brazil- take that last however ya please.

Oh, and have a nice day. N' shit.

113 while proposing $917 billion in cut spending over 10 years.

No, we're not.  A cut that doesn't actual make spending less than it is now isn't a cut.

114 89 75 Tim Scott (R-SC) told Cavuto he's a no. OBoehnerCare dead.

Now what? Another rewrite?

115 "Posted by: Twig at July 28, 2011 04:26 PM"

Who is this "we" you're talking about, paleface?

I'm not with Boehner/Cantor. I'm not with any of those fuckos.

Are you?

116 #82 - that's why anything done has to be DRASTIC, IMMEDIATE, and virtually impossible to undo.

The Democrats did it with Obamacare - putting in things like requiring 60 votes, etc.

There is NO reason the Republicans can't do that. But of course, they'll say 'we can't do anything because we don't have a filibuster-proof majority (conveniently ignoring that there are ways around that, including eliminating the filibuster).

Frankly, if that many people like the idea of Cut-Cap-Balance, that should be the first thing they do. If they need to nuke the filibuster to do it, so be it.

117 Cavuto is ripping some Dem Cohen from Tenn a new one

118 We are not really "adding" more on top of this. This is just out the door already.

Is this money already spent, or is it money that was budgeted and yet to be spent?  And if the latter, is it for goods and services already obtained/performed, or yet to be obtained/performed?

Understanding that you may not have all the details.

119 Finally another reasonable voice.

120 sometimes The People will favor recklessness and indulgence, but that is, in a democracy, their choice, and it is hard to conceive of a democracy (or a democratic republic) in which The People are somehow precluded from being short-sighted, or stupid.

That is survivable if government is limited.  Unfortunately, that is no longer the case...

121

Here is what I think the shut-it-down-now crowd is missing.

In 2012, there is a good, and rising, chance, of not merely having a united Republican government -- we had that from 2003 to 2007, and it was a failure -- but of having a united conservative government.

 

OK, then, what political party is going to produce conservatives for us?  Clearly it isn't the GOP.  The socialists have won-- those of both parties.

It's all over but the bean counting and the crying.

122 Posted by: Honey Badger at July 28, 2011 04:28 PM (H0dXA)

for now.

123
No, we're not.  A cut that doesn't actual make spending less than it is now isn't a cut.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 28, 2011 04:27 PM (KxyHe)

especially if it is scheduled for 10 years from now, while all of the limit increase is scheduled for NOW.

124 @63 We're increasing the debt limit by $900 billion while proposing $917 billion in cut spending over 10 years. I sort of think we can cut spending that much (and will cut it more).  One thing Obama says is kind of right: this debt limit increase is caused by spending *already completed by Congress.* Namely, the Democratic Congress of 2008-2010. We are not really "adding" more on top of this. This is just out the door already.


Sorry, we are not cutting anything.  At best we are shaving a few billion out this year (and Boo-Hoo is counting on Congresses over the next 9 years to have more nuts than he does and actually cutting spending).  And remember that is a few billion off of a base that has been increased by Tarp, Bailouts, etc. over the last 2 years. 

Federal spending still goes up something like 7%.  You can't have cut spending if you end up spending more.

Boo-Hoo's plan makes permanent the already completed spending.  Which brings us up to the debt limit authorized to cover that spending.

Giving obama another credit card just allows him to spend more.

125

The bill still isn't dead. I find it hard to believe the five Dem House members who voted for CCB won't vote for this.

126 Friggin socks and then mispellings. DAMN!

127 However, given that EVERYFUCKINGTHING we suggest is deemed an impossible request and not taken seriously -- I can think of no good reasons why we didn't, or why we shouldn't.

It's actually pretty smart. The public wants ObamaCare repealed.

Why not do this? Force Obama to veto a POPULAR bill?

Even if it goes nowhere, why isn't it worth the exercise?

Posted by: ace

 

I'd agree. Several people have suggested lining up crap like Biden's train set, the coked up cowboy monkey poets and keep hammering them. Make them vote them down

128

However, given that EVERYFUCKINGTHING we suggest is deemed an impossible request and not taken seriously -- I can think of no good reasons why we didn't, or why we shouldn't.

Why not do this? Force Obama to veto a POPULAR bill?

Even if it goes nowhere, why isn't it worth the exercise?

That is kind of my point. Obamacare is still unpopular; last I read repeal of it was still favored by 60% or greater.

Stick him with it. Tell the public that you have passed a spending increase that keeps us safe until January 2013, in exchange, you have demanded that an unpopular law be repealed. If he vetoes or if the Senate votes it down, then they are the obstructionists because they are choosing a vanity law over the health of the country.

129 >>>Ace, I'm obviously not as sophisticated as you. Please explain to me how it is that we cannot balance the budget now (when the only action required is literally no action) out of fear the GOP will be blamed for the economic consequences with 1/3 of the government under their control, but they'll totally slash away when they have 3/3 control and the economic consequences are worse two years from now? Methos, Because you do not understand the scale of the problem. We could zero out discretionary spending right now for this year -- not a dime spent on anyhthing except mandatory entitlements and tax service and I'm guessing the military -- and we'd still need some kind of a debt ceilign hike. See: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/272991/ bye-you-could-zero-out-discretionary-spending-daniel-foster

130
Out: Death Panels

In: Death Spiral

131 Please lay off the references to "The People" and "We the People."  It has a juvenile, liberal tone.

132 We've elected normal Representatives from both parties who have run the fiscal health of the country into the ground. Now that a portion of the new group of conservatives don't want the compromise Boehner has set up, the new guys are not playing politics well enough.

Let them do what we sent them to do, be a change from the past.

133 However, the best thing to do is have the individual mandate declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS I'm not overly optimisti they WILL do that.In fact,I'm betting they uphold it.

134 coked up cowboy monkey poets

oh my, funny

135 >>>Understanding that you may not have all the details. I don't have all the details. I assume it's money destined to be spent and thus some of it is not yet spent. But these discretionary bits of the budget are not enough to balance it.

136 Good post, at least you understand where we radicals are coming from. But you don't understand where we're going. It takes more than one data point to make a trend, but not much more. All the nominal conservative victories since FDR have not actually cut government. Oh, there was always something more important, like a military crisis or cutting taxes, which is like cutting government, right? It gives more to the private sector, right? Yes, but at some stage it misses the point. The point is not to get a compromise within a system but to change the system, because we think it's flawed. It's to make big government suffer because it deserves to suffer. If the people have to pay a cost for that, well, we deserve it for living so high on the government hog for a few generations. And at the end if we've paid the cost and have a free society, we can earn it all back and maybe keep our freedom this time. If conservative victory were inevitable, I'd say we could afford to wait forever. But I don't think it is. I think we could wind up the United States of Sweden, another cradle-to-grave nanny state. I think it's viable. I just also think it's horribly wrong. And I'm willing to burn it all down rather than let it get there. Maybe now's not the time to do that. But if Obama gets re-elected despite his positions, my faith will suffer another blow. If a RINO gets elected and doesn't cut, my faith will suffer another blow. If a genuine small-government conservative gets in but the system won't let him cut, or lets him cut but the electorate responds by a wave of liberals being swept back in to make things worse, then my faith will really be tested. At some point, one of these straws will break this camel's back.

137 Next time Conservatives, next time, that's always what the Republicans promise us. Vote for us now and next time we'll fight for you.

It's kinda like how we're always told if accept amnesty now they'll enforce the boarders later. Increase taxes and spending now and later you'll get those cuts.

Next time.

Next time.

Next time is apparently never!!!!

138 I wasn't three months ago but am now where Ace is on this. Here's the thing reality...I know we have been sold this future cuts bag of shit before, many times. To me that is not the point (because its right) it is that we get what we can and further drive Obama and the Senate down. Time, we are told, is short. Nothing else is making any news the nation is listening to....this will be resolved. Do we unite and appreciate how much the debate has changed from just normal raise the ceiling attitude to cuts before ceiling raise, reload for the next one and show Obama and the Senate for the balless wonders they are. Or continue the bashing of our own and give the Dems the hight ground.

139

Man! that was some movie review...thanks Ace.

  

140 130 The bill still isn't dead. I find it hard to believe the five Dem House members who voted for CCB won't vote for this.

Schuler is a no. If he can get Boren and the 3 others, he has a chance, but it will be down to the wire.

141 ghostship exactly....they like to complain but they NEVER DO ANYTHING to fix the problems..........part of the problem not part of the solution.....

142 Thanks Ace.  This is what I've been saying since I've been posting here.  Our fight didn't end with just the 2010 election.  The power in DC still resides with the dems.  We will wrest it from them in 2012.  But the struggle for a more sound nation will take many elections, and a generational effort.

143 The three senators? who were just on hannity basically said it's a done deal and over so what is all the accompanying BS, just pass it then, why add the drama.  Feel like I'm watching a bad reality TV program.

144 Rep. Fleischman switched from no to yes.

145

What needed to be added to the debt celiing raise was the deletion of baseline accounting for the government. Let each agency argue for its increase in appropriations each year.

Kill the eternally growing beast.

146 However, the best thing to do is have the individual mandate declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS - if that happens, the whole bill is dead in the water, as it ALL hinges on that aspect.

I don't think that's a given.  We could easily end up with the worst of all worlds, no mandate, and thus no private health insurance companies.

Hello NHS.

147 If the Boehner plan to appease Democrats won't pass, pass what you want and send it over.

148 OMG

149 coked up cowboy monkey poets

oh my, funny

Posted by: cherry ð

 

Don't laugh. I'm a model of governmental multi-tasking efficiency.

150 If the Boehner plan to appease Democrats won't pass, pass what you want and send it over.

Posted by: ronno at July 28, 2011 04:35 PM (nQR0p)

They did that, it was called CCB.  For some reason Boehner decided to send this...thing...over there afterward.

151 We're increasing the debt limit by $900 billion while proposing $917 billion in a cut of increased spending over 10 years.

FIFY

152 Those are good ideas, but the "shut it down" folks are a minority on the right, even among Tea Party types, so the piece is aimed poorly, IMO.

Once again we have too many people trying to frame the debate as being "us correct types" against "those who want to destroy whatever target the press will repeat that we say they want to destroy."

That is happening on the right among several "constituencies."

"Shutdown" is obviously a bogeyman trotted out to scare the children, just like "Killing Medicare," and a handful of other retard-o-memes being floated.  So don't buy any of them.  What's going on is all about positioning, and Boehner trying to regain the power he handed directly to Obama by declaring "no shutdown."  Yeah, it's odd, but the shutdown bogeyman plays both sides, even while being made of straw.

153 I find it hard to believe the five Dem House members who voted for CCB won't vote for this.

If they're for cutting, capping, or balancing anything, they won't.

They aren't for those things, of course, but they can say they are, and campaign on it, and win on it, because Republicans are provably opposed to cutting, capping or balancing anything, despite their CCB show-vote.

Long game!

154 Seems like all of this may be academic. Fox is reporting that a compromise bill between Boehner and Reid is being worked as we speak.

155

"We're going to create green jobs."

Whats more grotesque is that they say it with a straight face. 

156

However, the best thing to do is have the individual mandate declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS - if that happens, the whole bill is dead in the water, as it ALL hinges on that aspect.

This is the kind of thinking that got us stuck with McCain-Feingold.

The best thing to do is to repeal the entire law lock, stock, and barrel.

157 #142 Maybe now's not the time to do that. But if Obama gets re-elected despite his positions, my faith will suffer another blow.

If Obama gets re-elected, then the majority of the people of this country have decided that his policies are what they desire - they desire the 'safety' of acradle-to-grave nanny state, and he will consider it his mandate to basically enslave those of us who pay taxes or are wealthy.

I'll seriously start making plans to GTFO.

158 jc:
It takes 2 elections to change anything.  2010 was just one election.  We need another one at a minimum.

Yup.

In short, we have to get more voters to stop sucking and we don't have much time left to do that.  Washington politicians are not the answer.  We are.

At this point, the main thing Washington politicians can do to help is make sure that the Democrats own their failures.  That's about it.  I'll say it again: right now, we do not have the votes.

159 Wahoo!  Plan C includes new taxes.  Yeah, lets go for that one.

160

it seems to me that all congress does is take the long view, everything is evaluated in 10 year periods which means nobody is responsible for anything past 2 or 4 years. taking the long view means nothing will ever change. this was a golden opportunity, when Republicans take over in two years you won't see any big deals done. we cave every time much too early and stand silent while the other side beat us to a pulp.

If Mitt gets in and we have the same congressional leadership that we have now it will be business as usual.

161

However, given that EVERYFUCKINGTHING we suggest is deemed an impossible request and not taken seriously -- I can think of no good reasons why we didn't, or why we shouldn't.

Why not do this? Force Obama to veto a POPULAR bill?

Even if it goes nowhere, why isn't it worth the exercise?

QFT.  Ace is dead on here.

162 If this thing goes down (it seems it has) the Tea Party caucus is Bad Cop. Now Boehner goes back to the Senate saying "I tried, but I told you, my partner will come down hard on you but look, if you just give me a little bit, I can calm him down."

163 159 If the Boehner plan to appease Democrats won't pass, pass what you want and send it over.

Posted by: ronno at July 28, 2011 04:35 PM (nQR0p)

They did that, it was called CCB.  For some reason Boehner decided to send this...thing...over there afterward.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at July 28, 2011 04:36 PM (FkKjr)

Boehner say CCB is our final offer and call a recess.

164
I offer yet another perspective.

At the end of January 2010 the Deomcrat-controlled Congress authorized a $1.9T increase in the debt limit.

If the Democrats stilled controlled the House they'd pass another hike of $2.5T. (Not to mention that Bush's tax cuts would've expired). The way I figure it is that anything is better than that shit happening.

The Republican House is doing its job -- acting as a speed-bump for Obama. It sucks, but that is its role due to its limited power. So at least we have that, right?

No one likes to hear "it's better than nothing." So look at it as "a temporary reprieve for the death of our Republic." Nothing is written in stone. We'll make reforms when we defeat the Democrats on election day. Meanwhile let's continue to put the brakes on Obama's destruction instead of throwing our hands up and giving up.

165

But, given the premise that we can't do anything real until we get more conservatives in office, I think we really need to give less than he's asking--9 month extension unless Obama really stretches it.

Without that we are disarming ourselves rhetorically before the election on nothing more than Obama's request for no real reason.

166 So we pass this crap sandwich, send it to Dingy, who won't pass it, but reconciles it adding even more crap in and sends it back to the House and its' gonna pass it with RINOs and RATS leavin the Tea Party holdin the bag.
NOT GONNA WORK!
We're gonna go third party and leave you squishes and Entitlement panders to play your head games amongst yourselves.

167 For Heaven's sake, just get it over with and vote on the BBAs tomorrow or Saturday.

168 The MFM will make the GOP "own" any negative result regardless.

169

I could live with the Boener plan, but I don't like it.  But what I really don't like is that Harry Fucking Reid is out manuevering us on this.

We started with the Ryan budget, then took a giant step back (no entitlement reform) with CCB, and now are taking another giant step back with the Boener plan.  And Dingy Harry is still promising to kill it, in hopes that we'll negotiate ourselves to an even worse deal.

We shouldn't have even started talking about the Boener plan.  After CCB was shot down by the senate, we should have declared that that was the best deal that was going to come out of the house, and done nothing but tv interviews about how the senate hasn't done jack shit (which is exactly what Reid has been doing).  Then when the senate finally does something, we end up compromising on something that looks like the Boener plan.

Obama may suck at poker, but Dingy Harry is playing out one hell of a bluff.

170

<<<Is this money already spent, or is it money that was budgeted and yet to be spent?>>>

THERE IS NO BUDGET! We haven't had a budget since the Dems took over Congress!

WHY are the GOP not out there EVERY SINGLE DAY hammering this point home?

How do we even KNOW that we are up against the debt ceiling if we don't know what money is being spent on what things in the first place?

And Barky and the ratings agencies have already blinked not once, but TWICE since this whole thing started - first, the deadline was moved (and moved again), then the ratings agencies said that they would give us a passing grade just for "trying".

Obama set the deadline arbitrarily because he wanted to have some "Grand Bargain" to wave over his head at his 50th Birthday Party.

This was NEVER about the country; it was - as with everything this child does - all about making Obama feel good about himself.

Better that the GOP gets out there and starts hammering THAT little point to the folks playing the game at home....

171

I'm not happy with the Boner deal but believe it is the best for now.  It will put the blame back on the Dems. 

2 items for the shut it down now crowd:

1  Went to make a doctors appt last week.  The doctor's office (in a large building of  doctors) said that they were being overwhelmed with older people making appts.  Why?  because the older crowd was convinced that the GOP was going to terminate their SS/Medicare benefits and they were getting them now.  Think these people are going to vote GOP if there is a shutdown?

2.  If there is a shutdown and the budget is forcibly balanced by 40% reduction - even non-Kenysians will tell you this will significantly slow down the economy which will of course be blamed on the GOP

172 We could zero out discretionary spending right now for this year -- not a dime spent on anyhthing except mandatory entitlements and tax service and I'm guessing the military -- and we'd still need some kind of a debt ceilign hike.

Exactly, but perhaps not the way you meant it.  If you would grant that say, $300B is most we can cut from next years budget without the end of civilization, they why not just put up a clean increase of $1.4T and say, That's it folks, make it last ?

At least we would get 300B now rather than 900B over 10 years, maybe.

173 You have it partially right about incentive, ace. But you're not drilling deep enough. Like most political groupies, you can only count up to 535. The largest variable is the voting public. Where is the incentive for the 60% of them who pay only 2% of the income tax to do the smart thing? As long as their votes count as much as yours or mine, the easy path will always be pandering to these fucking layabouts. Votes are easy to buy, but you can't buy them with austerity measures. You need OPM to buy votes. THAT is the incentive problem - people being allowed to vote for a living, instead of working. Fix that, and the rest is easy.

174

The long game makes sense, but we need to retreat, not stand and get butchered.  Let Obama have a debt limit increase, but make it short term.  Let the dems raise taxes.  It will just make things worse.  Pin it on them.

People need to suffer some more before they wake up.  I had a retired gentleman tell me today that if he didn't get his s.s. payment, he was going to Washington.  "...paid into it for 50 yrs...".  Well, I told him if I could get ten cents on the dollar cash, now, for the 30 years I paid, I'd take it and be happy.  People just don't get it -- the money is gone.

175 My crystal ball says alot of places named Galt's Canyon in the future.

176

Why fight at all ACE? Just give up - and give Obama everything he wants and tell Americans to VOTE GOP!!

Seriously - the Boehner Plan has ZERO CHANCE of passing. Come Monday, the day before default ... Boehner will be given a crap sandwich and told to pass it. It'll be designed to utterly destroy every last ounce of enthusiasm in the GOP base.

And then what are your prospects for Conservative government in 2012?

177 You MoFos mess with my welfare check and DC will not vote for a extremist right wing Repbli-Racist in September 2012!!!!

178 I guess a no-plan is the answer. So no new spending and no new taxes. Does this mean we lose? Yeah we get to hear scary stories from Sparky about ganny not getting her check, but that is totally in his control. Given his penchant for blue and red pills I would have thought by now that granny would have figure this guy out by now. Maybe not. See you later granny, hope you enjoy watching TeeVee talks show tell you how bad those Pubbies are.  

179 Why does the JEF want this debt ceiling to carry him through to 2013 even though the MBM will have his back if he demagogues the next battle in 2012?

It's a little hard to tell the folks that taxes on the rich will pay for it while you're seen at fundraisers raking in the donations from those very same rich

180 Why did none of the house's plans for debt increase include repealing Obamacare? Sure, he'd veto it, but opposition's wishes didn't stop them from coming with tax increases. Regardless of the best option now, our negotiation sucked.

181 149 Thanks Ace.  This is what I've been saying since I've been posting here.  Our fight didn't end with just the 2010 election.  The power in DC still resides with the dems.  We will wrest it from them in 2012.  But the struggle for a more sound nation will take many elections, and a generational effort.

Posted by: Soona at July 28, 2011 04:34 PM (I6NSI)

I think that you have your years wrong ...

I think you meant 1994 & 1996?

or did you mean 1998 & 2000?

or did you mean 2002 & 2004?

etc.

The "leadership" claims that we will 'wrest' it from them next time.

somehow next time never comes.

182 Great analysis Ace. When I went to my first Tea Party, one of the speakers talked about joining together in a marathon, not a sprint. I've seen nothing yet to convince me that this is not the right attitude.
 
People on both sides are beginning to see that the will of the reformists can't be ignored. That's a sea change right there.

183 Reid and Boehner plans are “hundreds of billions” apart on defense spending, House Armed Services Committee says http://bit.ly/n3DbpP

Reid cuts $566B from defense spending.

184

1  Went to make a doctors appt last week.  The doctor's office (in a large building of  doctors) said that they were being overwhelmed with older people making appts.  Why?  because the older crowd was convinced that the GOP was going to terminate their SS/Medicare benefits and they were getting them now.  Think these people are going to vote GOP if there is a shutdown?

Posted by: nobama12

 

Newsflash: They won't vote for us anyway in 2012. We'll still be seen as the ones looking to freeze/reduce/can SS. And this time they'd be right.

185

(Except for Kasich, who is in genuine danger, but he's got time.)

Haven't hear this one, somebody put me some knowledge, I thought as with Chirstie and Walker, Ohioan's were warming up to Kasich.

The teet must be sweet in Columbus.

 

186

In principle I agree.

But I agree with the mouth that roared (levin) as well that it is annoying that the argument is always, "we will do something about it later."   It is too easy to think that this time, too, they are just setting up another opportunity to say "later" later as well.

Fuck that.

I am not entirely happy about having government fully in the hands of conservatives, but one has to admit it is absolutely necessary (although maybe not sufficient) if there is any hope of saving the security of our nation.

The reason it may not be sufficient is that the population is way to philosophically rotten to support real reform.  Just let things start to bite and things are going to go to hell fast, becuase there are too many people who really think they do have the right to my productivity.

187 "The long game makes sense, but we need to retreat, not stand and get butchered. Let Obama have a debt limit increase, but make it short term. Let the dems raise taxes. It will just make things worse. Pin it on them. People need to suffer some more before they wake up." Don't you get it? The more the Dems are allowed to implement their fucked up policies, the longer they stay in power. That's their whole game, that's how they survive.

188

Friedman:

"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right things."  http://tinyurl.com/yg2tdl5

 

A lot of the folks who are somewhat new to political battles think the people who have been in the trenches for years are stupid if they don't change the way the country is run RIGHT NOW. They don't have much perspective, so they don't understand that we're trying to turn an ocean liner.

 

We haven't been this close to real change in my lifetime. Don't fuck it up.

189 We're increasing the debt limit by $900 billion while proposing $917 billion in cut spending over 10 years.

No, say that properly:  We increased the debt limit by $900 billion while proposing under $30 billion in the immediate term of cuts, with $887 billion of soon-to-be forgotten promised cuts.  The only reason this 'over ten years' business isn't cutting it is because past experiences have repeatedly shown that it never works; the only way it could be made to work would be something that incurs a real and enforceable penalty if future Congresses don't keep the promise--and I think you'll agree that's pretty much a zero probability.

The argument against any plan in this format comes from a very reasonable position, based in decades of prior evidence.  Please don't pretend it's just some knee-jerk dogma at work, that's not only insulting, but it speaks ill of your own ability to recognize reality.

If it's just that 'this is what we can pass now', that's an acceptable response, if only because it's based on something to do with reality.  But let's not pretend this thing isn't what it is.

190 Lets not forget that we can't send ANYTHING to Obamma to veto, because Reed will just shut it down before it gets there.

191 $1.9T in new debt over the last 7 months.  We need to spend more, go in debt more.   Yeah, that's the ticket.

192

Let us know your real agenda, which is collapse, misery, depression for 6 or 8 years, revolution, and outbreaks of civil violence.

This is The Long Game, Ace.

Collapse, misery, depression, revolution, ourtbreaks of civil violence, forlornness, despair, a spiritual awakening, reconstruction, the embrace of traditional values, states governed by kind princesses, security, optimism, economic recovery, integration of dolphins into society, growth, prosperity, marshmallow Fluff and lots of peanut butter.

193 blindside:
If Obama gets re-elected, then the majority of the people of this country have decided that his policies are what they desire

Eh.  This is America.  Have faith.

As Winston Churchill said, "The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative."

The voters will learn.  The important thing for the GOP is to make sure that when the light dawns, we have another Reagan ready to go.

194 see, you know what to expect from the dems.  But somehow Americans expect more from the Republicans so when they act like the dems, they are going to be hammered more by the American people cause they were the "older one, they should have known better"....the dems are the laughing sibs.

195 Your reasoning is sound, Ace, but I have doubts about some of the underlying assumptions. Arguably, the House passed the Ryan Budget knowing that it would never amount to anything. There was undoubtedly a group of true believers, but for many others it was simply cover. Now, it is a good sign that they want to signal to us that they're taking the problem seriously, but that's not the same thing as actually taking the problem seriously. The difference between then and now is that right now they actually have an opportunity to do something. As opposed to just chalking up a purely symbolic vote to satisfy those annoying fiscal conservatives back home. I don't ask that they destroy the country. Only that they make good practical use of the very real power the House majority has in these sort of situations.

196 Quickly now GOP, cave to the Donks. If we cave here, then the MFM will just have to blame Obama and the Dems for the shitty economy, unemployment numbers, credit downgrade, etc, right? I mean, now with Boehner's compromise, the MFM wouldn't dare blame the GOP, right? Right?

197 They don't have much perspective, so they don't understand that we're trying to turn an ocean liner.

Unfortunately DC is trying to drill for oil in the cargo hold of the ship.

198
'sup morons. Would this be the longbow thread?

_{*ducks and runs*}

199
it was 19 months ago

200 Posted by: ace at July 28, 2011 04:30 PM (nj1bB) (134)

Ace, the link didn't work. But I do generally get the scale of the problem. We were at a point within the last couple of years where we could afford military+SS+medicare+medicaid, but nothing else. It wouldn't surprise me if were worse off today and would have to scrap medicaid as well.

I don't think that situation will ever improve from where we are. Do you expect otherwise, and if you can put it in words(like where is the growth going to magically appear from if there are never going to be real cuts), why?

And wouldn't it be helpful to the debate to force folks to see that situation for two weeks or a month, and then raise the ceiling?-I'm not sure people really believe it yet.

201  Next time Conservatives, next time, that's always what the Republicans promise us. Vote for us now and next time we'll fight for you.

It's kinda like how we're always told if accept amnesty now they'll enforce the boarders later. Increase taxes and spending now and later you'll get those cuts.

Next time.

Next time.

Next time is apparently never!!!

Posted by: GhostShip at July 28, 2011 04:32 PM (sbaXF)

 

And you know why that is?  It's because of sniveling backbenchers like you that keeps voting for backbenchers.  There, I said it.

202 @206 Exactly. I don't know how the fuck people are overlooking this little fact.

203 I heard Ryan describing/defending the Boehner plan yesterday on Hannity. I have to say that it was a different view than any I have read/seen, and it had a certain attraction. But, a couple of things. First, how can it be that they can only cut $20B, and then only against the baseline, from the next FY? Seriously? I thought they got $38B out of part of FY 2011? They couldn't get that out of a whole year? Still rounds to zero. How about the $187B in unspent TARP funds? Take that back, take it out of the hands of the Democrats who will use it to bribe their constituents. Second, I think politicians are too enamored of the cleverness of their plans. So the Boehner deal's big trick is that it gives a 1T increase in the debt ceiling now in exchange for very little, and then it supposedly makes the second tranche of debt ceiling dependent on the President submitting cuts in entitlements. Oho, hoist on his own petard! He will be cornered! The legislation will force him to propose entitlement cuts. Except we just gave away the game! Duh, you don't think someone the President knows listens to Hannity? They know its a trap. If the President signs this deal (and it is already DOA in the Senate, remember) then when the time comes, what makes us think he will follow the law? What, they'll impeach him? Right. They'll take it to the people? Yeah, right. He'll go down to the wire and say look the GOP is going to steal Christmas and they should just give me a clean debt extension for the children. And we'll herar Krauthammer and all the rest say, well, the House GOP needs to do that or else the world will end, and people will think badly of the GOP for ending the world. If you are going to play a long game, you need to have some short victories along the way. You can't punt on second down each time and say well, in the fourth quarter, they'll be so tired from scoring on us that we'll win. This either its Boehner or Reid stuff is bullshit. It doesn't have to Boehner. Just go short term and take back the TARP money, then actually reduce spending in the FY 2012 budget. Tie that to further increases in the debt limit. ' And if we are too dumb to do something that simple, then we deserve everything that comes of it.

204 Ill give the GOP 2012,  Reagan didn't have

-reconciliation
-a conservative congress
-conservative media and policy tanks to challenge the lefts

-but he did have a nation with less government dependents and a few more grownups.
-Carter was a much crappier liar then Obama

Still look what he accomplished!  The pro foreign intervention/big government domestic welfare left had dominated everything for half a century.  Reagan took them down like the iceberg did to the Titanic.  They still have not recovered from that.

First order of business rather then cutting budgets should be to turn responsibility and money back over the states.  education/healthcare/ etc...It will set the left back decades to re-consolidate those powers federally.  To say nothing that the extreme blue states disasters will become that will discredit their being able to sell it to people.

If the GOP sells out after 2012 then its time to send them and the democrats the way of the Whigs.   I still think rather then 2 parties with a threat of an impotent third, there should be a majority based one party with a constant threat of forming a second.  In the 1.5 party system itd be nearly impossible for the 10-20% radical population to take turns running the show like  they can in our 2.5 party system.

205 Dear God! You GOP lapdogs are pathetic.

If the Establishment Republicans came and said that after talking to Obama that adopting full fledged communism was the best deal they could get y'all would posting comments about how yep it sucks but we have to support it and there's nothing that we can do until we elect more Republicans next election.

Just Dear God! Ugh!

206
You get a raise of 9.50 per hour this year, but last year your raise was 10.00 per hour so your gonna whine at your boss because you got a cut in pay? This is what effect Boehners plan has on the budget.

AND if Boehner hadn't started out negotiations on the 30,000 dollar car at 29,500 he might have some leverage with the Rats and the Tea Party,.
He needed to start at 15,000.(Cutting NPR, ACORN, defunding entire worthless agencies)
He said a week ago they would not let the Govt default, trying to sound all reasonable.

He may  just as well told the Dems 29,500 and  you can bend me over and ride my ass for the other 500.

207 sounds like its time to learn to make squirrel jerky

208

Meanwhile, what sneaky little things are Obama and his merry band of thugs doing behind our backs while we're all distracted by "this hand"?

One shudders to think.....

209

I hope everyone is having fun because we are going to have this exact same battle in September over the budget. I fully expect Boner to get rolled on that one too because he's shown that he doesn't have the stomach for this fight.

And when he folds on the budget I expect there to be a grassroots revolt.

210 I dont mind playing a long game, but lets get long gains: no withholding, medicare/mediaid fix, personal ss accounts, eliminate departments, sunset law on regulations, etc.

211 hannity is such a jackass

the callers are angry, asking him WTF are the repubulicans doing and eh can't come up with an adequate explanation....but to use mumbo/jumbo....

ah he went to the john boehner school of communications....should have realized.

212

The difference between then and now is that right now they actually have an opportunity to do something. As opposed to just chalking up a purely symbolic vote to satisfy those annoying fiscal conservatives back home.

With a leftist controlled WH and a leftist controlled senate, how the fuck are you going to get any of that passed?  Sit down and think about it for a minute.  If you've got that secret formula or can create miracles, then please call Boehner's office tell him you've got the answer.

213 220 Cap and Trade through the EPA as we speak.
Another agency Boehner should have put on the chopping block if he want ed to negotiate.
He started negotiations from giving the rats 75% of what they want.

214 If we are going to be downgraded anyway, why bother to pass any bill...

let it ride...

215 Budget authority and outlays charts

FY 2011 Enacted
FY 2012 President's Request
FY 2012 House Budget Resolution
FY 2012 Budget Control Act
FY 2012 Reid Proposal

216

WHY are the GOP not out there EVERY SINGLE DAY hammering this point home?

Great question.

And why aren't they out there yelling that Obama jacked spending by 30% and now acts like this out of control level of spending should be the default.

 

217 But we have the Debt Ceiling.  Dammit, that's why I wanted to win at least one house in Congress.  We could have just raised it $1T and forced a cut of 700B.

Leverage is not leverage if you won't use it.

Posted by: toby928™ at July 28, 2011 04:15 PM (GTbGH)

It seems a fair amount of people cannot understand this point. The Republicans gave up so soon that any leverage they had against the Dems is gone now. The Dems know that the Republicans will raise the debt ceiling, so why compromise?

218 "Shut the government down. Force Obama to sign anything to get his bureaucrats a paycheck.

I'm not sure it will work out for us. If we are punished politically for this -- say the economy double-dips into a fresh recession (as it seems to be heading towards), and it winds up being believed it was Republican brinksmanshp that caused that -- we could lose 2012, and thus the long game."

A LOT of people were saying this same thing in '95. The press blamed Gingrich for the government shutdown. There was vitriol and hatred directed at the "Gingrich who Stole Christmas" (I believe that was Newseek's cover), and his allies in the House. Conservatives worried and hand-wrung themselves into a tizzy over the political fallout. This would cost us the election in '96, they said.

The result was balanced budgets, projected surpluses and Welfare reform. The balanced budgets were so successful, Clinton wound up trying to steal credit for them. Yeah, we wound up losing the White house in '96 (the Republican Nominee was Bob Effing Dole, so it really wasn't destined to be a close contest), but we made significant gains in Congress.

Gingrich ultimately failed when Bush got into the White House and the Republicans went on a spending bender...term limits might have solved that problem.

I hate when people talk about strategic politics in terms of a "game". This isn't baseball where you consider putting in a lefty reliever because your starter is tired, their big hitter is up, and you're only winning by one. Politics isn't a game, it's war. And while war does require strategy, it also requires ideology; the staunch belief that your side is right, the other side is evil, and any compromise is a defeat. The Left knows this, and they conduct themselves accordingly.

Those who want compromise stand in the Senate and call the Tea Party a bunch of Hobbits (McCain is so full of fail when he tried to make a pop culture reference), they talk about how the compromise isn't great, but at least it's something, then safely keep their jobs while the country continues to sink.

No cuts.

No compromise.

Take Reid's deal over Beohner's, so the only blame will be on them.

Otherwise, hold the line, shut it down, and stop fretting over how a bunch of elderly people will vote more than a year from now when all they can remember is what they heard on the TV that morning.

219 >>>Dear God! You GOP lapdogs are pathetic. You have your little hissy-fit out of your system now, Mary?

220

I hope everyone is having fun because we are going to have this exact same battle in September over the budget. I fully expect Boner to get rolled on that one too because he's shown that he doesn't have the stomach for this fight.

And when he folds on the budget I expect there to be a grassroots revolt.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater

 

There's a wrinkle I hadn't thought of. If that round gets botched, the whole thing can become unhinged. it would be like McCain  suspending his campaign. Advocates of te Long game are being very optimistic that we'll do better in the next round AND score big in November 2012. Lots of folks who don't like us will need to be very cooperative.

221 Leverage is not leverage if you won't use it.

Posted by: KG at July 28, 2011 04:57 PM (LD21B)


Exactly! We had the leverage but the GOP leaders refused to use it.

222 It's actually pretty smart. The public wants ObamaCare repealed.

Why not do this? Force Obama to veto a POPULAR bill?

Even if it goes nowhere, why isn't it worth the exercise?

Posted by: ace at July 28, 2011 04:20 PM (pbzFf)

Exactly our question Ace. Why did the Republicans give up so quickly? Why couldn't they fight a little bit more?

223 "WHY are the GOP not out there EVERY SINGLE DAY hammering this point home?"

This is something we ask ourselves every time a major legislative vote or national election comes up...and something we continually fail at.

224 My forecast:  This bill will pass the House, the senate will reject it.  Aug 2 will come and then go.  Ho hum.

225 You know how I know we are winning? All the leftists I know are screaming and beating their fists against the walls. They've never actually lost before, and their brains just can't fathom it.

226 Zombie Calvin Coolidge for president!

227 235 It probably won't fly but it's a throw away,  in a negotiation you always ask for more than your gonna get. We started asking from failure to even uphold our own promises and negotiated from there.
Not a good way to start. negotiate for a 30000 dollar car from 15000 not from 29900

228

Monsieur Bitch McConnell was first on his knees when he handed the dems a signed, but undated, surrender in the first days ...

Posted by: progressoverpeace at July 28, 2011 04:59 PM (G/MYk)

 

If an abode hasn't been housecleaned for decades, it's going to take more than just one day's effort scrub it down.  The turn-around of this nation isn't going to happen with just one election.

229 This is all well and good, but I wonder if he ever envisioned half of the nation reveling in those 'more and costlier free lunches'?

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at July 28, 2011 04:28 PM (vbh31)

Not to mention the subversion that has been ongoing in our education system for decades now.

230 If the House does not pass this bill, we will likely not have a bill signed into law until after the August 2nd deadline. If that happens, the Democrats and Obama and the MFM will blame EVERYTHING negative that happens to the economy between August 2nd and November 2012 on the GOP. And a lot of voters will believe it. This vote could very well determine whether the Obama regime is reelected or not. It's kind of a big deal. Let's pass this shit sandwich.

231 228 Because Boehner and crew are big spenders as well. These guys have been there forever, they are too embedded into the system. They don't know it any other way. Obama knows this of course and will check mate him. See when I call Boehner weak I don't mean as a man thing I mean it as he is too much part of the system. He doean't know how to do it any other way. We have done the same thing over and over again, and now we have reached a breaking point and what do we do, the same thing!

232 #243 you keep using that analogy so I assume you've never bought a car.

233  You know how I know we are winning? All the leftists I know are screaming and beating their fists against the walls. They've never actually lost before, and their brains just can't fathom it.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at July 28, 2011 05:02 PM (NUMQE)

 

Yeah, I know.  And it's been fun to twist the knife every once in awhile just to hear them squeal a little louder.

234 All you snotty little jackass's on this site make me sick. The GOP are ball-less wonders that will cave to President obama and Harry reid. Give it up now little eunichs.....................

235 So you think not cutting a fucking dime of federal spending in 2011 or 2012 will help Republicans win everything in 2012? How can "just do whatever the President and Senate make us do" be the pathway to winning in 2012?

Better idea: pass a good bill in the House and let the Senate take the blame if it kills it. We were THERE! We already had that! Instead, we said, "Oh, we're so fucking sorry for writing a bill our Democrat masters don't like. Please, sir, here's another bill, one that cuts NOTHING in 2012 instead of $111B. Please, oh pretty please, pass this one."

Not to mention: how incredibly stupid is it to use a debt ceiling vote as a negotiating ploy when everyone knows you're got to vote to raise it no matter what? It only works if it is not a bluff, get it?

Anyhoo, we lost Ace, and Sowell and Fred Thompson and the WSJ... What are you, fucking retards?

236 240 You know how I know we are winning? All the leftists I know are screaming and beating their fists against the walls. They've never actually lost before, and their brains just can't fathom it.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at July 28, 2011 05:02 PM (NUMQE)

If this is victory then I'd hate to see defeat.

237 Look, we've survived through 2.5 years of the Obama regime. Let's just muddle through the next 1.5 years and then we can implement serious and necessary reforms in early 2013, when we actually control the entire federal government.

238 CLOSE COVER BEFORE STRIKING.

239 251 All you snotty little jackass's on this site make me sick. The GOP are ball-less wonders that will cave to President obama and Harry reid. Give it up now little eunichs.....................

Posted by: Ghostship at July 28, 2011 05:10 PM (48wze)

I've got an impersonator. Well that's a first for me.

240 Anyone who actually thought the election in 2010 was about running the country is an idiot. 2010 was about stopping Obama and the Dems from driving this country over a cliff. 2010 was simply applying the brakes. 2012 will be about taking over the steering wheel. Let's not blow this, and piss off every independent voter in the country.

241
Look, we've survived through 2.5 years of the Obama regime. Let's just muddle through the next 1.5 years and then we can implement serious and necessary reforms in early 2013, when we actually control the entire federal government.
Posted by: RJ



I'm sure Speaker of the House Boehner, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and President Romney will be all over it once they get in....

242 Where did I leave my ascot and corduroy jacket with the elbow patches?

243 Exactly! We had the leverage but the GOP leaders refused to use it.
Posted by: GhostShip at July 28, 2011 05:00 PM (sbaXF)

Btw I didn't write that, I was quoting another commenter.

244 All you snotty little jackass's on this site make me sick. The GOP are ball-less wonders that will cave to President obama and Harry reid. Give it up now little eunichs.....................

Posted by: Ghostship at July 28, 2011 05:10 PM (48wze)

 

Love ya', AJ.

245

From Daily Caller:

House Republicans are just wasting their time debating Speaker John BoehnerÂ’s debt reduction bill, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said today.

“Boehner’s bill dies tonight,” Reid communications director Adam Jentleson posted on Twitter “Forever.”

Good. That will be two bills sent up from the house killed by Reid's Senate. Let them own their own mess. The president still has no plan, and Reid wants his bill to go forward.

It can be killed in the house, just as easily as the house bills can be killed in the Senate.

Let them dig their own hole. We will at least have control of congress in two years.

246 We could control House and Senate in 2012 but if we have a RINO bush style republican as President, nothing will change.

247 "I'm sure Speaker of the House Boehner, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and President Romney will be all over it once they get in" They will. Their voters demand it. They'll have to.

248 Ghostship, If I wanted your opinion, I'd GIVE you your opinion. By stabbing it into you with my enormous dick. Fuck off, sissy.

249 Let's just muddle through the next 1.5 50 years and then we can implement serious and necessary reforms in early 2061, when we actually control the entire federal government universe.

And we'll all fly our flying cars down to the free beer fountain and sing the new Amy Winehouse hit.

250 When you're playing a game of chicken, you win by making the other guy think you're willing to endure the car crash. The Republicans flinched. Once CCB passed, they had won. All they had to do was sit back and say "if you don't like it, write your own bill and we'll talk." Instead, since Obama plainly was happy to hit the wall and they're terrified they *might* get blamed and it *might* actually still be an issue a year from now (a political eternity I might add), the Republicans started eating each other. So now we're stuck with John Boehner trying to do the legislative version of "Ninja! Vanish!" to try and escape and save face.

251

Is that a cock in Beckel's mouth?  Nevermind, he's just talking.

252 Oh, and a brief reminder of what happens if Boehner's bill passes.

Anyone got another plan?  Anyone?  Anyone?

253 Is The Fab Fail Five still on? Or have they shot that crippled horse?

254 Here's what I think a lot of people don't get. In 2003 or 2005 or whatever, when the GOP controlled everything, the Republican base wasn't too concerned about spending cuts or entitlement reform. They were concerned about Iraq. Well, today, in 2011, the Republican base is primarily concerned about deficits, debt, spending, entitlements, etc. So the next administration (assuming it's Republican) will have a MANDATE to cut spending and to reform entitlements. Like, they'll pretty much fucking have to. And so they will.

255 I keep hearing analogies to poker, playing chicken, etc.  None of these analogies work well.

The Democrats still have control of government, and we don't.  Period.  The only real "game" being played right now is the game of who gets blamed for the economic mess we're in.

256 OT: Vote is post-posted

Majority Leader Reid to invite GOP to talk compromise

257 **Members are advised that the House GOP Leadership has postponed the votes on the motion to recommit and final passage of S. 627 – Speaker Boehner’s Short Term Default Act (amending the Faster FOIA Act of 2011). Following general debate on S. 627, the House will consider the eight bills listed for consideration under suspension of the Rules.

258 I don't think Boehner ever wanted the CCB. The conservative caucus did, so it wasn't like you had to turn elbows to shepard it thru the house. Boehner seemed like he had the CCB, if you like it fine if you don't hey we got another one. It's not as severe so after you vote against the CCB we'll send up another plan for you to check out. He didn't like the Ryan plan either, I think he let Ryan twist for a bit. So when the CCB plan came up he was kinda forced to send it thru the house.

259 I agree with Ace in that we definately did get some solid conservatives in the last election that seem to bear so fruits. And I don't know if it's just me but I smell a whiff of collusion between some republicans and democrats to paint them as die hard radicals, trying to make them irrelevant. We just need that many more, starting with the senate in 2012.

260 " I keep hearing analogies to poker, playing chicken, etc.  None of these analogies work well."

War is the only apt comparison.

261 The 8 bills being considered under suspension deal with naming buildings after fallen servicemen and women.

262 "sounds like its time to learn to make squirrel jerky"

Funny as hell, but unfortunately true

263 Everyone remember Christine O'Donnell. Everyone remember how awesome she was...in theory. And everyone remember how she lost the election. CCB is awesome in theory. It would be awesome in fact, were it to be passed and signed into law sometime in early 2013. But it didn't pass the Senate, and it wouldn't have received the current president's signature even if it had. You deal with the hand you are dealt. Our hand is control of one house of the Congress. That's it. Now let's deal with it.

264 Just because you can't make things better, doesn't mean you have to make things worse.

CCB should be final offer.

265 CCB is awesome in theory. It would be awesome in fact, were it to be passed and signed into law sometime in early 2013.

But it didn't pass the Senate, and it wouldn't have received the current president's signature even if it had.

You deal with the hand you are dealt. Our hand is control of one house of the Congress. That's it.

Now let's deal with it.

Posted by: RJ at July 28, 2011 05:36 PM (QjrRF)

And when Boner's Plan fails to pass the Senate, what then?

266 I recall a lot of people on here (myself included) who were hoping the GOP would win the House in 2010 simply to "stop the bleeding." This is, we wanted control of the House in order to kill the Obama agenda. Well, mission accomplished. But you cannot run the US federal government from one house of the Congress. Let's be patient. November 2012 is coming. Let's not blow it and help reelect Captain Failure.

267 Anyone remember who was Speaker during the Carter debacle?

No? enough said.

268 Stop The Presses: The Fed Can Fund The Treasury With Over Half A Trillion In Emergency Capital http://is.gd/5KFgSX
@ZeroHedge on Twitter

269 285: GOP passes bill. This would be the second bill they've passed. Senate shoots it down. Then House and Senate negotiate. GOP-controlled House has leverage because they've passed two bills now. Compromise bill is reached. No new taxes, lots of spending cuts, large increase in the debt ceiling (probably past the 2012 election). House GOP and Democrat Senate both pass this compromise bill this weekend. Obama signs on Monday, along with obnoxious speech. But GOP can claim victory because of sizable cuts and no new taxes. Obama is on defensive with his base because...well, no new taxes and sizable spending cuts. Divide and conquer. Winning. Then wait until November 2012.

270 >>>All you snotty little jackass's on this site make me sick. The GOP are ball-less wonders that will cave to President obama and Harry reid. Give it up now little eunichs..................... Did you see a mouse?

271 "There's a bill, CCB, waiting for Senate action. If they want to amend it to hell and vote it down, let them do it." They voted it down already.

272 First of all, I am basically in the same boat as Ace.

There is no way in hell something transformational is going to get through the senate, much less the president. Either we shut the government down, or we pass what we can get. I can't think of a single reason why the Republicans will not be blamed 100% by the general public for the shut down.

Maybe you guys don't care. I kind of do. If we hand them an EASY victory in 2012, I'll be stocking up supplies in a shed, I'm not kidding. That will be the end for the US as we know it. If we get a majority in both houses and a president... then obviously we have the mandate to do even more damage. I will eat crow, but I won't apologize for thinking you guys are NUTS to think Americans actually want a government shut down.

273 Lot's of good stuff there, Ace. Especially anything Friedman. So I'll just add snark.

"They favor that as a general proposition, a vague one to be sure, but they understand that's the right thing."

And the metaphor? "I really need to go on a diet and lose this Michelin tire of a waist, but I think I'll stick with that Big Mac Sundae Sprinkled with Fries, please." By the time I'm really ready to change behavior, the doctor will be saying, "I'm sorry but your octuple-bypass surgery was insufficient. You should probably start settling your affairs and look for coupons on double-wide caskets."

IOW the long game may proceed so long that by the time the populace is "ready," the whistle has blown - the American culture will be over.

I don't have confidence that Conservatives can triumph under the evolved environment we have cultured. McCain and Graham are "conservatives." Can anyone honestly say they'll revise downward their Statism even assuming the electorate can escape its dependency? Professional politicians work their entire lives to manipulate masses, and they have heavily financed infrastructure to work against them when an interest or union of them find the masses Hobbish.

I'm just not seeing the long game being fruitful.

274

Ace,

"In 2012, there is a good, and rising, chance, of not merely having a united Republican government -- we had that from 2003 to 2007, and it was a failure -- but of having a united conservative government'

But......It's merely spectulation and just because there is a Conservative United Front doesn't mena anything changes.

275 GOP-controlled House has leverage because they've passed two bills now. Compromise bill is reached. No new taxes, lots of spending cuts, large increase in the debt ceiling (probably past the 2012 election).

Wow, leverage huh? The same leverage the Republicans have given up by showing they will not call Obama's bluff? That leverage?

It's gone, buddy.

276 "As Obama has continued to deteriorate in polls -- and the economy has deteriorated along the way, and offers little hope of improving enough to be a net positive for him in November 2012 -- I have started to think we can win in 2012, and win it all."

I have considerable confidence Obama's on the outs. The question remains: Will Conservatives/Libertarians rule the roost? History says "No."

277 Anyone got stats on Federal government growth from 2000-2006 and 2006 (Dem super maj) - 2011?

278 I strongly suspect that its too late, that nothing we do will turn this ship around. However, that said, there's still a slim chance, and for that chance to happen, its going to take time. And that's our two choices: plug your ears and close your eyes as we crash, or fight to the end, doing what we can, which means a little at a time.

If we can get a few more guys in who'll do what is right next election, we're closer. Then more the next election, and we'll be closer. That's the only way to actually turn it around; nothing else will work. It took a long time to get here, it will take a long time to turn it around.

Insisting it has to be done now is simply throwing a tantrum. Be realistic. Grow up. We can't fix this instantly, this is the real world. It takes time.

279 Ace, you said it MUCH better than I did 6 months or so ago.

I said that Pres. Obama would *probably* win reelect, but since congress does the actual work, we should focus more on them. It was pointed out to me the power the Pres. does have, in supreme appt's. but I stick by my guns - this IS a long game, and while the tide has turned from spend more against reduce spending, to just how much we do reduce by, this is not even close to being a slam dunk, even *if* the R's plan is adopted over the D's.

The problem as I see it is in momentum. We have it right now, but after the deal is done, will it dissipate?  Those of us firmly on the TP side will still pay attention, but will the newly awakened I's and D's??? Or will "crisis averted" reassure them and will they go back to sleep?

280

Conservative government, huh?  Would that be anything like the "conservative" House that wants to give Obama $1.2 Trillion dollars more in exchange for $22 Billion in cuts next year?

Washington Republicans are always telling responsible conservatives to "be patient" or "play the long game" or "take the best deal you can get."  How has that worked out so far.

Pass a real bill in the House (been done already) and tell Obama & Reid to take it or leave it. 

281

@301

Obviously you have no real understadning of the economics, and the economic future of the country. You talking about what can be done in the future?

Talk about being unrealistic!

282 Bill Clinton got reelected in 1996 in part because the newly-elected House GOP overreached. Do we want to repeat history again?

283 Fuck that.

Let's win now.

Wouldn't it be better that Barry has to cut something as opossed to evil republican prez in 2013?

Let it burn. Down to the ground.

284

220:

Requiring farmers who drive farm machinery on their land to have Commercial Drivers' Licences, and be forced to keep logs, etc., subject to audit.  Just think of all the union truckers who will jump all over that one, shutting down planting/harvest time because of some work rule having been violated, like actually having to work a full day plus.

285 "Let it burn. Down to the ground." That's a winning message that will appeal to moderates and independents in 2012. /facepalm

286

"Washington Republicans are always telling responsible conservatives to "be patient" or "play the long game" or "take the best deal you can get."  How has that worked out so far.

Pass a real bill in the House (been done already) and tell Obama & Reid to take it or leave it. 

Posted by: SamInVA at July 28, 2011 06:13 PM (rFiOs)"

 

I would hate you for stealing my thunder, but hobbits are good natured fellows!  We aren't playing the long game, we are just getting played.  The 10 year plans are a joke and will never come to fruition, there will just be another crisis to force the issue again. 

We clearly lost the last fight and now we stand on the edge of losing another.  I will send a note to Sauron McCain that more hobbits are on the way, so that we may finally destroy the damn ring.

287

USA's problem is multi-faceted and not susceptible to immediate solutions.

While I understand the passion for getting this over with once and for all in some grand gesture, I don't think conservatives are currently strong enough to pull it off. This is going to take time. How much time do we have before the whole thing goes down the shitter? I don't know. The fact I don't and can't know makes me respect the sense of urgency of others. 

The simple solution is always attractive [e.g., Obama removed from office for whatever reason; Obama realizes error of his ways]. But turning this around is going to take a lot of work and time. We can't just rely on "our" politicians. Even assuming that they had the will, they've got a steep slope to climb and without us behind them, either supporting them or putting the pitchforks in their cheeks or getting them reinforcement, they will fail. Not getting the Senate in 2010 was a disappointment. But it is what it is. Better prepared candidates in 2012. More money bombs. Hell, we got Rubio in over a duplicitious RINO, RINO.. 

Obama feeds off chaos and strife. Although I love the snark here and my wife is growing tired of me debating the TV, I remind myself that the road to victory starts with calm determination. Even during the absurd provocations and during the coming shitstorm.

288 "Bill Clinton got reelected in 1996 in part because the newly-elected House GOP overreached. Do we want to repeat history again?"

What revisionist history books are you reading? Clinton got re-elected mainly because Republicans put Bob Dole up as the alternative. During his re-election, Republicans gained more seats int he house and Senate precisely because of Newt's "overreaching"; we got balanced budgets, projected surpluses, and welfare reform.

There is literally no basis in reality for your statement. Go read some actual history and educate yourself.

289 ""Let it burn. Down to the ground."

That's a winning message that will appeal to moderates and independents in 2012."

Yes, because he was advocating precisely that as a campaign message.

/doublefacepalm

290 Jesus, Mary and Joseph is there anything that Ace can be positive about?  It's like having Eyeore follow you everywhere or the dark dust cloud that follows PigPen.  It gets old after a while.  Do this but, but, but don't do that... no, do this but they'll hate us.  Someone has to go all in at some fucking point.  Just do it.

291 Why are so many using the straw man that we want to enact all conservative policies RIGHT NAO, when that is not what a lot of us are saying.

292 None of this would be happening if we had Mike Castle in the Senate.  So, this is all O'Donnell's fault.  Well, her and those damn tea party types who voted for her. 

293 President Romney, Majority Leader O'Connell, Speaker Boehner. Good night and good luck.

294
It's all about 2013.

295 This web site is my breathing in, really fantastic pattern and perfect subject matter.

296 Conservative government, huh? Would that be anything like the "conservative" House that wants to give Obama $1.2 Trillion dollars more in exchange for $22 Billion in cuts next year?

What makes you think that the House is conservative? And even without that conservative majority we could maybe get in 2012, they passed the cut/cap balanced budget law. Imagine what we could get with more conservatives in place?

I'll tell you what: more than we can get now. And insisting we get it now when its not possible is just infantile.

297 We've hit de Tocqueville's point of failure - 50% of the people now receive full or partial support from the government.

From this point on, it will only get worse, as future elections will now simply decide between "send us money" and "send us more money".

Obama is the perfect embodiment of this new American ethos. Someone else paid for his college education, his law school education, and a good chunk of his Chicago McMansion. Someone else provided him with a book which he could sell for millions of dollars of income. Someone else bought him a very expensive campaign which won for him the Presidency. Someone else is buying him millions of "friends" and supporters, as he steals and then hands out outrageous piles of tax revenues to his ideological buddies, for no discernible public purpose.

His first term has been marked by a blatant departure from the Rule of Law - as he openly and contemptuously flaunts laws and rules put in place to constrain a president's power - and when he does this, he faces no pushback from the other branches of government, nor any scrutiny or criticism from his captive American Press.

I expect his thievery to become more open and blatant and severe during his second, third, and fourth terms as President.

That's our Long Game. I don't think we see a "fix" until the United States have been wrenched apart.

de Tocqueville knew what he was talking about.

298 Last time we had a conservative government? 1920s. Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge. And Coolidge is a God becuase he was a real deal conservative. The dude was PAYING OFF the national debt! As #241 said, ZOMBIE CAL FOR PRESIDENT! But like it or not, it is a loooong game we have to play. The left has been doing it for 80+ years. Sorry, what is going down is a crap sandwich, to quote the Speaker. But we have to start and keep it on the left. Can you imagine Reagan or Coolidge with united conservative Republican government in Washington? Read up on Cal. That is what it will be like. But we have to get there!

299 We don't have time for a long game. The house of cards is about to collapse and destroy much of the US with it.

300 "There is literally no basis in reality for your statement. Go read some actual history and educate yourself." News article from 1996 about a presidential debate: http://tinyurl.com/3cj7j72 ***Mr. Clinton cited the unpopular Speaker, Newt Gingrich, far more than Mr. Dole's running mate, Jack Kemp. ***Mr. Clinton also seized on a question about Medicare to link Mr. Dole to Mr. Gingrich, an effort that is a staple of Democratic campaign advertising. The ''Dole-Gingrich'' Medicare plan, Mr. Clinton said, would put Medicare at risk... Physician, heal thyself.

301 "Gingrich ultimately failed when Bush got into the White House and the Republicans went on a spending bender..." Gingrich was long gone before Bush was elected. Maybe you should, I dunno, go read some actual history and educate yourself.

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